Kind: captions
Language: en
From 2014 to mid 2023, there were over
1,000 documented attempts to get college
professors punished for their speech.
Nearly 200 of them lost their jobs. That
means cancel culture has now officially
taken more jobs than McCarthyism did
during the Red Scare in the 1950s.
America is in trouble. What once looked
like a phenomenon on the left now feels
like a split personality disorder where
each half of the country views the other
half as an existential threat. They're
both looking at the same thing and
seeing something completely different.
My guest today, Dave Rubin, warns that
with the rise of the woke right,
American values are now being attacked
from both sides. And that is a recipe
for disaster. So, what would we need to
do in order to save ourselves? We're
about to find out.
Who is the single most influential
figure that's driving the rise of the
woke right?
>> Well, I mean, Tucker is the obvious
answer to that. You know, there's no
doubt. You know, the Tucker thing. I
don't like talking about people that
I've considered friends over the years
or or colleagues to some extent or even
former guests. You know, I really try
not to do that. This has come up a
couple times obviously lately. Um, it it
really genuinely gives me no great
pleasure to talk about. But I I whatever
has happened with Tucker, um I wish it
had not happened. Um the sort of
hysteria that he's offering people, the
rabbit holes he's pushing his audience
down, the the big the big things that
he's missing, you know, all of us, you,
me, everybody in this biz that talks for
a living, you're going to get things
wrong. You absolutely are going to get
things wrong. I get things wrong on my
show while we're doing it live. I love
it when my guys fact check me or I'll
say something. and I'll be like, I don't
know if that's quite right. Could you
remind me? And I'll I have no problem
issuing a correction or anything like
that. There's a difference between just
kind of getting something wrong and
really taking your audience on on what I
would say are are fantastical adventures
in nonsense. And that that really is
unfortunate. You know, look, you could
even just look at just one of the recent
ones, you know, with this Iran thing. He
was telling his audience that this was
going to bring on thermonuclear World
War III and America would likely lose
and there would be thousands and
thousands of deaths and all sorts of
sleeper cells would be woken up and all
these things. Now look, you can get
stuff wrong, but where's where's the
apology? Why is it that you can look at
my tweets, you're welcome to find them
if you want. you know, even weeks before
the Iran thing when it started to feel
like it was something was gonna happen.
I was tweeting out basically like I
think Israel is going to do it in a
couple days. Maybe it maybe America is
going to have to drop a few bombs at the
end, but that'll be it. There could be
some sleeper cell stuff. Like I think
partly what's happened with with what
you referred to as the woke right, cuz I
don't go to everyone's awful motives all
the time, right? So, the easy way to do
this would be to imply that everyone's
racist or everyone's anti-Semitic or
everyone whatever. But you and I, we've
played this game long enough. I've been
in the internet long enough. The label
thing doesn't really work. Uh, and it's
too lazy. You have to really, and you're
very good at this actually, one of the
best. Really try to engage with what
people are doing where they're at in
some sense. Um, I think a lot of what
they're doing is not necessarily because
it's all born out of hate. Like that
would just be an easy version of it. And
I'm not saying there's nothing there,
but I think a lot of it is just it's
it's a cold calculated business
decision. You can take your audience
wherever you want to. If you want to
fill your audience up full of fear and
paranoia and conspiracy theories and
everything, the internet is rife with
opportunities to do that. I I try not to
do that. Um
>> would you define that though as like the
cornerstone of the woke right is just
the WWE theatrics or is there something
more going on?
>> No. So it's it's two things at once,
right? So there is a strange racial
element happening. There's a lot of
weird stuff with their obsession with
the Jews and obsession with Israel for
sure. There's also a lot of obsession
with people that aren't white. That's
just a fact. The some of the things they
say about Indians and blacks when it
rates, you know, Indians as it pertains
to taking white jobs, let's say, or
black people when it pertains to IQ or
whatever. Um, so there is some racial
element, too. But I think I think just
focusing on that is actually a little
myopic. I think what what rides next to
that if you're kind of looking at two
rails going in the same direction is
just the business opportunity that
relates to that. There is a [ __ ] ton of
clicks and money and fame and all of
that stuff as it relates to this. You
know, the big thing that they're always
saying, this whole set of people, I'm
just saying the thing you can't say.
Except they're all saying it. Nobody's
paying the price for it. They're being
algorithmically boosted and all sorts of
things. Um, and they're getting clicks.
They're making money on all of these
things. It's not like they're losing
sponsors. I'm I'm not calling for anyone
to lose a sponsor or be censored or
anything else. Um, but the idea that I'm
just saying things that no one else can
say while you're saying those things and
making money and gaining popularity
while doing it, I think is a little
thin. I I would also say it's a pure in
some sense look at it this way someone
like Tucker and again I don't really
like making this about Tucker but he
created his he has his own network I
suppose the Tucker Carlson network I'm
not aware of any other shows that are on
it but he's going for a network right
well if you're going for let's say a
rightle leaning network right leaning
digital network who do you have to go
for you have to go for number one who's
number one Daily Wire who's the who's
the avatar of Daily Wire it's Ben
Shapiro Ben who's the number one sort of
orthodox Jew in America, it's Ben
Shapiro. So, there's like a throughine
that I don't think is just purely based
on ethnicity or skin color or religion
as much as like some some cold hard
business decisions that go with that and
and that's a tough thing that the rise
of anti-semitism I found um very strange
and worthy of consideration. Do you
think that this is them leading that
pack or them recognizing this is where
the pack is going and so I better step
out front?
>> Well, look, I can't speak to what's in
anyone's heart or mind. You know, I can
only speak to what I see as the action.
So, when you say them, you're talking
about broadly like whoever the leaders
are, the thought leaders on this woke
right thing. It's probably a little bit
of both, right? So maybe they have a
little you know anti-semitism it's the
oldest hatred because at the end it's
like wait a minute why is this tiny
minority of people how have they existed
for so long despite being pummed and
holocausted and inquisitioned throughout
history how did they not only survive
but thrive amongst that and become
successful and maintain their traditions
and blah blah and I think there's a
jealousy attached to that you know
Thomas soul was once asked about you
know why is there all this hatred of the
Jews. And he's like, "Well, look,
they're successful." It's not much more
complicated than that. Um, if if they
were unsuccessful, if if they didn't
thrive, if they didn't have hold on to
any culture or any history or any of
those things, nobody would give a [ __ ]
about the Jews. It's as simple as that.
So, the question is, do you want to
thrive and survive and be hated or do
you want to be dead and loved? I think
the answer to that is fairly obvious.
>> There's obviously a reason that people
are using the idea of the woke right.
So, you've got a parallel to the woke
left. Uh, when people first started
saying the woke right, I actually
couldn't wrap my head around what they
meant. What's going on on the woke left?
What are they attempting to do? Is it
about It's for where I'm sitting, it
seemed like people were trying to say,
"Look, this is a power grab. They're
using um purity tests and censorship as
a way to get people to conform." And so,
when I first started hearing people say
the woke right, I had not yet
encountered online what they were
talking about. But as you start looking
at, oh, okay, there is a version of the
right that is also about purity test,
censorship, conformity of thought. Is
that what you think the parallel is or
is there something else going on here?
Well, I think it's that with a dash of
ethnic stuff mixed in, right? So, the
the ethnic stuff on the left has been
very obvious for a while because they
believe in identity politics, right? So,
if you're this color, you should believe
this. If you're, you know, white, you're
at the lowest end of the totem pole. all
the stuff that you and your audience
know very obviously like the the woke
left stuff clearly everyone grasps. What
what I think surprised people on the
right was there really was going to be
an element of that too that was going to
turn into I guess what you could like
kind of broadly call like a white
grievance thing. Now I'm in some sense
this is going to sound weird but in some
sense I am sympathetic to some of that.
If you say to a set of people,
particularly young white men, if the
entire culture for the last decade says
you are awful by definition, it's going
to be harder for you actually to get
into that college because of your skin
color and your gender and potentially
your sexuality. It's going to be harder
for you to get that job at that company.
Everything that we show you in media,
you're bad and everyone else is
inherently good because they're they're
the other skin. They're the other in
essence, but always about skin color and
sexuality particularly. Well, then you
can understand why a certain set of
people that probably would have been
nominally nothing or largely
a-political, you could see why a
15-year-old, 15-year-old kid who's
getting blasted with those messages sort
of ends up in a weird right frame of
that. So, you could potentially the two
ways you could go. So, let's just say
you're a normal kid growing up in the
culture that we've been part of for the
last 10 years. A lot of them went left,
meaning they they just chose their I,
you know, they said, "Okay, my identity
means everything, and if I'm a white kid
in this, well, I'm really low on the
totem pole, but I will bow to it." And
we see a lot of that, right? We we see
this all the time, actually. Um, or you
see what has become like the really
psychotic version of it, which is the
trans version, where young girls,
15-year-old girls, have now the social
contagion where they think that they're
boys and that's their entry into it cuz
otherwise they're just 15-year-old girls
with all the problems that an adolescent
girl would have. The boys, I think the
white boys and girls or boys are are
biologically and psychologically
different. A lot of the boys, it seems,
were pushed the other way where they
were like, "Okay, now I'm not part of
that thing, but I will make my ident,
you know, my outward identity is now
going to become part of my politics."
And then that got mixed up with say some
of these influencers I think I think
taking them down places that that are I
would say largely dark places. I would
also say a lot of this again because I
don't try I try not to give you the easy
answer on everything. A lot of this is
because of the absolute destruction, the
self-destruction of the mainstream media
that offered us so many lies and so
little truth. So many people, so many
institutions were so blown apart and
COVID and all the rest of it that
everybody failed so many tests over the
last couple years that we cannot be
surprised. Like the thing is, I'm not
surprised by this. You may have seen the
clip, and I know you you love him as
much as I do, Jordan Peterson. Uh
there's a clip of him on Rogan uh from
about could be seven years ago talking
about wokeness, you know, sort of at the
beginning of when we were calling it
woke.
>> And Jordan says, "Man, if you think this
is bad, wait till you see the reaction
on the right." And that's what Jordan
was predicting, the thing that you're
now calling the woke right, which I
also, you know, I haven't called it woke
right many times on my show. I think
I've maybe tweeted that phrase once. I
kind of like [ __ ] right? I like
alliteration. Um, and I've had, you
know, James Lindsay is the one that
really came up with the phrase
originally. You know, it's it's tough
because you start coming up with these
phrases and then we don't want to you
don't want it to be a catch-all for just
everyone you disagree with. Um, but I
think we discussed this once or twice
before. You know, sometimes you need
these labels just not because it's such
the perfect label, but otherwise we all
will just get lost in definitions all
the time. So, it's a it's a tricky
thing.
>> Yeah, it's interesting. I think that
people do get labels to the point where
they're so fasile that you you're just
cramming everything and oh, I know what
that is and I don't have to think about
it. But there is something fascinating
about the way that the right now is
diverging from uh having a cohesive
narrative. I think about this a lot
because my obsession is uh the
fusidities trap that's set between the
US and China. And I look at China and
look, it's top down enforced rule in a
way that I would not want to be a part
of. But it certainly has advantages in
terms of getting everybody to march in
the same direction, not having to worry
about re-election, just pushing
everybody in one maniacally focused
direction. And now in the right, you've
got this rise of something, which I'm
only just now beginning to really wrap
my head around. This is the first time I
think I've ever talked about it out
loud. I think it's an echo of populism.
Populism to me is born of economics.
Economics makes people feel uncertain
about the future being better than the
present. And so they get into this like
zero- sum mentality. They're very
defensive. They tribe up. And so now
it's about are you on my team? Are you
not on my team? And they want control
because they believe that the stakes are
extremely high and that if they're going
to get you where they want to get you,
meaning the whole country, so that
everybody can live the, you know, just
and right way, that they're going to
have to manhandle you a bit to get you
there. And so it is wildly ironic to me
that when the left was doing it, they
were having an absolute seizure as they
should have because they were being so
sensorious, so wanting everybody to
think in the same way. But to now see
them do the exact same thing is uh it's
very troubling in terms of I don't yet
understand the principle they're
operating under.
>> So first off you just said something
very important which I should have got
to earlier which that the populism part
of this particularly as it pertains to
economics is extremely important because
AOC and Tucker are becoming increasingly
alike actually in a certain sense and
that's a very weird thing. That's what
people call the political horseshoe
theory. you know, if you go one side too
many ways, you're going to end up over
here where you're basically together.
Look, if you look at the last Trump's
been president now for, you know, six
plus months, there are an incredible
amount of wins, right? There are trade
wins. Absolutely. Look what's happened
with the EU in the last couple days on
top of a series of other trade wins.
There's absolutely a border win and a
deportation win. Now, now these I'm
saying I consider these things win and
the people who elected Trump consider
them win. Maybe not all of America, but
you can point to an awful lot. We've
we've removed wokeness from a lot of our
institutions. We've started to rebuild
the military. Um I think we've although
it's we're not there yet, I think actual
something approximating peace is heading
towards the Middle East. The Russia
Ukraine thing, we keep getting close and
then it gets further away. But like
there's movement, right? We at the very
least like lowest common denominator
stuff. We know who the president is.
That's pretty good. Um, you know, Donald
Trump, his his staff and his press
secretary, Carol Caroline Levit, they
take questions. Again, we have done an
incredible amount of good things. And we
I I mean the Trump administration, they
have competent people. You may not agree
with all the things, but if you don't
think Marco Rubio is competent, if you
don't think JD is competent, Caroline
Levit, RFK, all the things we've done
with food and maha. So the white pill
here, what I would give you is in the
last six months I go I do my show every
day and it's very easy for me to talk
about a lot of good things because these
good things are happening right in front
of our eyes. Now there's bad things too.
They're shooting in New York City. Uh
you know there'll be a riot here or a
mob there or whatever. There's always
that stuff. But there's a lot of good
things happening right now. And I would
say particularly economically the
markets are at basically all-time highs
right now. We completely rebounded from
those couple bad days after the tariffs
were announced. I did not freak out over
the tariffs. It happened exactly like I
thought. It was a negotiating point. The
reason I'm mentioning all of this is
because the only way you get the people
on the right to join the people on the
left is if they think everything's
falling apart. And Trump actually is the
antidote to all of that. What stops the
crazy fringes? You know what stops it?
It's goodness. It's success. It's
America. It's freedom. It's economic and
capitalist success. And actually, we're
writing the ship right now. So, the
strange thing to me for Tucker and some
of these people, if you were to go, you
could do it right now if you want. If
you were to go and look at Tucker's last
30 episodes, has he done anything that
seems pro America or proTrump even?
Actually, there's a ton of stuff that's
wildly anti-Trump actually. And and a
bunch of stuff. He does all these now I
would say historically revisionist kind
of things. But why isn't he if he likes
Trump and if he's for Trump and
supported Trump, why isn't he doing what
I do every day, which is talking about
all of the great opportunity that's
happening in America or talking about
the exciting horizon that we're on with
AI and how it's going to expand human
flourishing or any of those things, but
in a weird way. And this is why I
honestly think Tucker will end up
allying with AOC by 2028. there will be
some weird coalition around that he's
using the same methods that she used in
essence they're against you capitalism
doesn't work for you blah blah blah
where actually Tucker you should be
completely for what else do you want
Donald Trump to do right now I I don't
know what else he could be doing to make
America better I look I would like the
the interest rates to go down he's
trying to get Powell to do it right now
but by and large there's so many good
things out there but if you keep people
thinking this is what the left's done
forever. AOC 12 12 years ago said we had
what was it 6 years ago had said we had
12 years to go you know before before
the climate was going to collapse. Of
course it was nonsense. They're really
good at oh systemic racism is going to
kill everybody or America's
fundamentally evil. They're really good
at all the hysteria blah blah and now
that's popping up on the right. There's
no reason for it. But I'll give you one
other white pill on all of this. Not
only is America the the big white pill,
the other white pill on all of this is
that in reality, not online reality, but
in reality reality, I don't think a lot
of this is actually hitting people. I
see a very different world out on the
streets than I see online. And that's a
challenge for us, I would say, because
of the algorithms and everything else.
But do you see that? I mean, I see a
huge disconnect. You know,
>> I do, but I I have a shovel full of
black pills that I'm going to be feeding
you throughout the episode. Uh, but I
actually think you asked the the right
question, which is why is he doing it?
>> And I think to avoid the madness that
will inevitably ensue if we have a bunch
of pied pipers that are leading people
down a path of either entertainment or a
desire for control without at least
having the check of saying, "Let me
explain that phenomenon." And then the
people that want to avail themselves of
it at least have going back to this idea
of categories can say, "Oh, I get the
category. Why is he doing it?" We'll get
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theory. And now, let's get back to the
show.
>> I can't exactly speak to what's in his
heart or in his mind. know him, I would
say vaguely. By the way, you know,
before this all really exploded over the
last like two months, I was trying
privately and publicly to bridge some of
the gap. I was ting with Tucker to try
to get him and Ben Shapiro to do a show
together. I said, I'd be happy to
moderate it. You don't need me. That's
fine. I'm just trying to do this. I was
doing it privately on text. And Ben
immediately agreed to do it. And Tucker
said that he said he said to me, "We
don't need you, Dave." And then he said,
um, Ben's welcome anytime, but refuses
to invite Ben, but he talks [ __ ] about
Ben on every other episode, basically.
So, again, I don't know exactly what's
driving him, but I would say this. If I
was Donald Trump, I would be pretty damn
pissed at him right now. And I think
Trump is actually. I think you can sort
of see this with a little bit of what's
happened with Trump over the last couple
months. Like, everyone on the right,
you're getting all of the things you've
asked for. What what could you possibly
want out of Donald Trump? Everyone can
figure out like whittle it down to like
one little thing or something. But you
are Trump has so writed the ship and if
your goal now as an influencer on the
right is to destroy that or tell people
how horrible everything is or to focus
on something that happened 50 years ago
or to suddenly tell me Hitler was a good
guy, I just think your aim is just
completely off. So again, I can't speak
to that. But I would also say this. I
mentioned Jordan before. Do you remember
when Jordan had James Lindsay on and
they discussed this a little bit about
two months ago?
>> They did a
>> I I saw one that they did maybe a year
ago, but I didn't see one a couple
months ago. So I misremembering, but
>> yeah. So they did one a few months ago
where they talked loosely about the woke
right and Jordan Jordan actually did
something that I respect, which is what
I've tried to do probably failed here a
little bit, but he said he didn't really
want to name names because he didn't
think that that was going to be
fruitful. Like let's just try to talk
about the ideas or whatever. So here
we've talked about Tucker. Okay, it is
what it is. But, you know, after that
interview, and it was done with the same
exact class and thoughtfulness and and
deep knowledge that Jordan does with
everything, and I think James is
brilliant, too. James is a little bit
more of a troll online or whatever. But
it was but it was a wonderful
conversation. But after that
conversation, I saw so many people, you
know, on the right going after Jordan.
Jordan's a fraud. Jordan's a fake. He's
not a conservative. I don't want him
part of this. These are the same people
that were going after Douglas Murray
when he went on Joe Rogan. And it's
like, if you don't want Jordan Peterson
as part of your movement, if you don't
want Douglas Murray as part of your
movement, if you don't want Ben Shapiro
as part of your movement, if you don't
if you don't want me as part of your
movement, well, good luck. I I would say
good luck. And I don't think you're a
pro-America movement at that point. And
and perhaps they're not. If if this
thing is what you fear it might be,
well, maybe it's just a radically anti-
America movement and it just be coming
it just happens to be coming on the
right. But I would also say, don't you
si sense this? There is way better push
back on the right on this than there was
on the left last time.
>> Yeah, I'll definitely give you that. I
think that the right doesn't have a
problem with disagreeing with each
other. Um they certainly there is a
contingent of the right that is so
diehard free speech. I would count
myself among them that you're going to
have a very hard time um getting people
that either find themselves in the
center where I like to believe I sit or
find themselves leaning uh to the right
that they're just not going to conform
to anything that asks them to be quiet
or to uh align with a narrative. But it
it is very revealing to me that the
revisionist history is taking place. So
let me I'm going to give you my sense of
what's going on and then please correct
me where you think that this goes crazy.
But when I try to map and like you I I
can't see inside anybody's heart but I
can draw conclusions based on the things
that they do. And when I look at what's
happening in a populist moment where
people have deep uncertainty about what
the future is going to hold
economically, they become very emotional
because they are scared once they're in
their emotions.
>> Wait, can I can I can I pause you there
for a second? Do you think we're in that
moment? Do you think we're in that
moment? Because I think that's a key
piece of this because if aggressive Oh,
so okay. So you aggressively think we
are in as scary an economic moment as
they are purporting to believe. We are
probably in a worse economic moment than
most people will tell you. Uh I do these
things called deep dives now every
Monday where I go in and just look at
stats figures about uh it could be uh
Mandami promises to freeze rents. So
I'll go in and look at okay what's the
reality of the history of rent freezes?
What do they do? Uh looking at books
like uh the creature from Jackal Island
and going in which parts are true like
what's provably true? what's more or
less false. So anyway, going through and
you look at all the stats and it's like,
hey, there's a way back out of this, but
it isn't going to be easy. And if people
do not wake up to the fact that we are
full throttle right now headed towards a
fiscal cliff that you get into a debt
spiral that is so devastating and has
played out so many times over the last
500 years, there's just there's no
question about where this goes. Um it's
only a question of how we respond. any
um country that has stayed over 130% of
debt to GDP ratio for a long period of
time has ended up either in civil war or
um a revolution. So we're at 122% right
now. So one country has avoided it.
That's Japan. Japan is a very unique
culture. It's not impossible and there
is something that you can do to back out
of it. But anyway, I don't I don't think
that's where we're at. I think though
that we have the setup that is very bad.
>> Okay. So, you think we're in a very
tenuous position regardless.
>> We are in a horrible situation and that
that has it it is literally a loop in
history that repeats based on fiat
currencies. It it is um Ray Dalio has
done such a phenomenal job of mapping
out the six phases of that cycle, the
big debt cycle. Man, it's really crazy
when you start walking through it.
you're like, "Oh, I see we're in in
phase literally 5.5 and phase six is
total collapse." Uh people don't think
that it can happen. It happens all the
time. Uh it's happened all over the
world. It happened in Argentina, which
is one of the most fascinating ones
because they're now finally backing out
of it, but it lasted for 100 years.
Anyway, I say all of that to say I think
we are in a very difficult economic
position. Our debt is so outrageous. uh
we have continually borrowed from the
future and the only way to make the
payments on the interest is money
printing. Money printing steals from
everybody but only benefits bankers and
people with assets. So that means 40% of
Americans don't own assets at all and
the top 10% of Americans own 95% of all
assets. It might be the top 1%. I I
always forget. So we'll just say the top
10%. That means 90% only own 5% of the
assets. And that's why the rich are
getting richer and the poor are getting
poor. That's the setup. But now with
that, what I think is happening is it
pushes people into this emotional
thinking. Once they're fearful and
thinking emotionally, now they believe,
okay, I'm fighting for my life. The
other team is the enemy. And it starts
being about I need to get control of
this narrative. Now, the bad news is
they're right. And there's this book
called on Xihinping about how he has
talked privately about the if we're
going to make it as China, if we're
really going to push forward and become
the country, we have to control the
propaganda. We have to give people a
national narrative. I mean, this is like
a tale as old as time.
>> And so, we're watching China do it to
tremendous effect. The US has completely
lost belief in itself. And you have the
left and the right both trying to cement
a narrative to get people to believe in.
But when I look at that, I look at, oh,
they think they have the narrative that
um the part of the reason they're always
going down the rabbit holes of
conspiracy, part of the reason that
they're blaming the Jews is they don't
understand the economics. And so when
they go to try to figure out, okay, I
can tell the future is set up poorly for
me and my kids, who the hell is doing
this? And so instead of understanding as
a structural thing that I won't bother
getting into right now, but instead of
recognizing as a structural thing, they
want to point to a person, a boogeyman,
whatever. And as Thomas Soul said, you
have a successful minority, very easy to
point to them. And PS,
>> you if you look into banking, you will
find a lot of Jewish people. So that
doesn't help their cause. So now it's
like people have mismapped the problem.
They have found an easy scapegoat and
now it's like to get everybody to
understand what's quote unquote really
going on. They're just taking you down
these constant rabbit holes which are
great for clicks, gets people really
hopped up. Even I find conspiracy
theories fun. So there's something like
they really do juice you really like
what's going on whether they're doing it
consciously or not to me is about
defining a new narrative about what
America is so that we can all get on the
same page.
>> Right. So you there's a lot there. I
really like that analysis by the way and
it again it actually um I think you gave
me a nice piece of color I would say
there for when I come back on the grid
and obviously this issue is not going
away. Um, if anything, it gives me more
of a reason to to do what I presented
earlier, which is be for Trump and for
America. I'm not You're more of an
economic expert than I am. Um, so and I
don't purport to be an economic expert.
I think I'm if if anything, I'm probably
a media expert or something. So, I like
the narrative stuff more than like the
the specific uh economic stuff that you
could point to here. But what I would
say is Trump as someone that is trying
to reinvigorate the United States
economy, trying to bring manufacturing
here. I was just last week at the all-in
AI crypto con uh AI conference uh that
Trump and JD spoke at. JD was
unbelievable,
unbelievably knowledgeable about this
stuff. Trump was great, too. It seems to
me that Trump, whether you liked exactly
all of the things of the big beautiful
bill or not, and Elon didn't because
he's worried about some of the things
that you addressed. Yeah. It seems that
Trump is trying to do all of the right
things to write the ship. Now,
>> maybe you disagree with that premise.
Maybe he's not. Maybe we just don't have
a freaking clue. Trump has one bet,
grow. That's it. He's perfectly willing
to drag us into more debt, which was
very black pilling for me. But yeah, his
whole bet is growth,
>> right? his bet is growth that eventually
that will overcome the debt in essence.
You know, something like that would that
would be like the most easy version to
say it. To me, I just don't see any
other alternative. But I would also say
Trump deserves I think I think he
deserves some leeway on this. The guy
has been right about so many things way
before anyone else. He's fought the
entire system. He's brought in competent
people. They're doing a million things
that I already laid out here. So, I'm
not saying he's going to do it all
right. But what I would rather, it seems
to me that if you were Tucker or any of
these other people right now, unless you
had the magic bullet that I don't think
you or I seem to have, unless you had
the antidote to all of this, you might
be like, you know what? We got the
president we wanted. We we actually are
fighting the deep state. We are cutting
government. We are doing better trade
deals. We aren't going to be in endless
wars. Uh we're going to we're going to
exert American exceptionalism. And
again, I thought Trump's speech in Saudi
Arabia was one of the most incredible
speeches I have ever heard. He said, "We
are not here to bomb you or tell you how
to live. But if you want to be part of
America's success, then join us in that.
If you don't, that's okay, too." To me,
the these are all the things that any of
us could have possibly ever asked for.
So why if you are an influence
influencer on the right, would you not
be part of that? Doesn't mean you can't
be critical when when there are things
to be critical of, right? when he took
the plane from Qatar, like I I
questioned that, you know, that seemed a
little if if for no other reason than
optics, it seemed kind of strange.
>> But it seems to me that the the the bulk
of everything, and I mean the the
massive bulk of everything is so in the
favor of Trump that to be on the right
and get the like who else do you want?
Unless you think that you can, you know,
basically pull off a I think I can make
this reference with you. If we're in
1985 and you know, uh everybody's had it
with Cobra Commander and Dr. Mindbender
says, "Okay, we're going to take DNA
from six of the most evil people and
create Serpenttor and he'll lead us."
Well, maybe you could do that and create
the greatest leader of all time. But
that didn't work out well for Cobra
either, by the way.
>> Shocking. Yeah. Uh I I have a slightly
different take on
>> he it's by the way, deep cut G.I. Joe
references will get you everywhere with
me. Uh I have a different take on Trump.
So I think that he is the only person
that could be elected in this moment
because uh both sides are weaponizing
the DOJ. Both sides are going after
their political opponents. We are in
full populist mode. Again, if people
really believe the other side is an
existential threat, which they both do,
then they're going to go after them. And
so you try to shoot him, you uh try to
arrest him, imprison him, like you need
somebody that has that tenacity that's
going to push through all of that. Um,
you're right that this moment isn't
going to call forward a or that's not
even the right way to think about it.
This moment isn't going to elevate the
kind of person that we would I that I
would, let me speak for myself, that I
would want to lead us that has the
ability to go, you know what, they came
after me, but I'm not going to return
fire. This is where we have to unite. We
have to come together and we have to
move forward. That's just not going to
happen in a populist moment. In a
populist moment, you're going to get the
guy that's willing to fight that wants
to slap the other side in the mouth so
that you feel Yeah. Yeah, like get those
guys. They suck. And that's why I keep
coming back to this is about narrative
control. And when I see the right, the
woke right, going after Trump, it's
because Trump does not validate their
narrative. Their narrative is very much
what you were saying that uh whites have
been hard by and we were being taken
advantage of by this cabal behind the
scenes, which by the way isn't untrue.
It's just not the cabal that they think.
like you can really round this to
politicians and bankers and you were
you're not going to get all the way
there, but boy oh boy are you going to
get close. And once you realize that
bailouts are the point and that that is
ultimately how we've created this wild
runaway inequality and it's really the
inequality that's creating the problems.
Like if I could just get people on board
with that, I think a lot of these pieces
begin to fall into place. And so if I'm
right that Tucker and other people on
the woke right, they simply can't map
the economics of it. And so they get to,
okay, I've got a narrative. It's
cohesive. It allows me to understand
myself how to move forward. It allows me
to rally my base. Uh, and now it's like,
cool, I've got the package narrative
that I need. But if Trump or anybody
else is going to collide with my
narrative, that's an existential threat
to the leadership that I'm trying to
deliver to the right. And so now you've
got all these factions that are trying
to like lead the way forward, but
they're having a war of narratives.
>> Yeah, I that's good. That's good. I
think it's true. And then I think if you
again the thing that I don't like to do
is automatically go to they're
inherently racist or anti-semitic or
something. But then if you take the
portion of that that is real because
obviously there are actual racists.
There are actual anti-semmites. there
are actual people who hate people based
on creed and religion or whatever. If
you take a dash of that and then you
take what you said, so there's like this
map that they can't map to the to the
reality map, right? So these things are
not finding themselves and then the the
racial element probably just puts this
thing on steroids. So as the maps are
trying to now I'm definitely doing a
Jordan Peterson here, but as the maps
are trying to come together, so you
could sort of Indiana Jones and be like,
"Oh my god, that is the thing. I just
needed to step back and see it." Well,
now this map is kind of shaking because
this map now has the racial element into
it and it has sort of like an actual
hatred element and that's not going to
work from an American perspective. I
mean, we are a country that is here for
everybody whether you like it or not.
And and you know, unfortunately, that
comes with a lot of things because we
now do seem to have certain groups that
don't want to assimilate, that don't
want to do what your grandparents did
and my grandparents did and don't want
to be part of the melting pot and seem
to want to turn our country into the
countries from whence they came, which
is an unbelievable uh disaster. And we
know that the newer generations then
become more radical than the the
grandparents who survived all the stuff.
So there's there's a a cacophony of
issues that we're trying to deal with
here and uh and I think this is the only
way we're going to get anywhere with
them.
>> I mean, we'll see. This is uh I I am
haunted by the quote that the uh
moderates, the elite moderates are the
first ones to get killed in a
revolution. So uh I am so hyper aware of
that. But the part that I have not yet
come up with a compelling um hypothesis
for is why the rewrite of history as it
relates to Churchill. What what is it
about Churchill that makes him a a
cornerstone figure that they have to
like re- um imagine?
>> Okay. So,
let's slightly remove all of the
specifics from the conversation that
you're talking about. That was obviously
when Tucker had Daryl Cooper on. So, I
don't want to cuz we're not going to
quote him perfectly and that's where the
internet will grab us. So, let's just
try to talk about the idea that you're
talking about. Why rewrite versions of
history and why does so much of it seem
to be around uh Winston Churchill? I
think there's a couple kind of fairly
obvious reasons actually. First off,
World War II, if we're to connect it to
the racial element of everything we're
talking about here, right, it was the
war in essence that started
unfortunately to exterminate the Jews.
So there's a weird racial element around
World War II. It exterminated or
attempted to exterminate or otherwise
killed an awful lot of other people. Ask
the Russians about that. Um so it's not
just about that, but there when most
people think of World War II, you think
of the fact that 6 million Jews were
killed. So there's a there's some
element of focusing on that. And if
somehow Churchill, the guy that really
turned the war around for Europe, could
somehow be the bad guy, then it kind of
starts bringing some Hitler's sort of
good stuff around, too, which they've
also danced around. I mean, Daryl
Cooper, somebody tweeted at him
something about the national uh what was
it? The nationalist the national
socialists were right. And he posted
that uh you know, that image of uh
what's his name as the Joker from the
great Batman movie. Uh not Christian
Bell. Heath Ledger is the Joker and and
what does he say? You know, I'm just
ahead of the curve. Something like that.
Like that's kind of like basically
saying I am a Nazi pretty much and
that's the guy that, you know, Tucker
says is the best historian in the
country or something. So I think there's
a weird racial element to it. But I but
I would say the better version of that
is that Winston Churchill was a man who
whether you like him or not, whether you
like everything he did or not or
anything else, he stood up for his
country. And that damn well is the
truth. And as the Nazis were marching
through Europe and did have a plan to
take all of Europe and wanted more
living space and everything else, he
stood up for his country. This is post
Chamberlain basically cutting a deal
with Hitler and thinking that if you
just put something on a piece of paper
that they'll be nice, which obviously
Churchill believed in peace through
strength and he stood up and he and he
stopped an invasion of his country and
and Europe at large. And in some sense,
connected to what you said earlier, if
you don't really like the Western world
now, if you don't like what America's
turned into, well, then you kind of have
to start back there. You can always go
back further and further and further.
That's a pretty good one because it's it
looms World War II. There's still people
that are alive that live through World
War II. So, I think going after
Churchill, the guy who, you know, helped
stop the invasion of Europe, to say the
least, is a pretty good one to go after.
It helps. It helps rewrite all of the
history around all of this.
>> Man, we'll see where this goes. Um, if
this really is a fight for the narrative
of what America is, uh, I find
narratives are really meant to give
people a frame of reference, encapsulate
a value set that allows them to move
forward with confidence, uh, or in the
case of the narrative on the left to um,
disempower the people that have created
all the problems as they would see it
and empower those that um, are going to
pull us out of that history of sin. Um,
if this is a battle,
>> how do you gauge the the thing that I
mentioned before, the online version of
this where a lot of it seems burning
very hot. You know, if I open up X, it
looks like, oh my god, the Nazis have
returned versus what's going on in real
life. Cuz I can tell you, I'm going to
play basketball when we finish up. I
play with this incredible group, 25
guys. I'm down here in Miami. We got
it's a lot of um ethnically Latino
people. So, we got a lot of Cubans down
here and Venezuelans and but Puerto
Ricans and everyone's speaking different
languages and they come and I got
Canadian white guy and just this whole
crazy group of guys. I don't think
anyone's thinking about any of this
stuff. And these are guys that care
about politics, but I don't think any of
them are suddenly like maybe I am a Nazi
or maybe the Nazis are back or anything
like that. I just don't and I'm really
trying and it's partly why I go off the
grid actually. It's because we're caught
in the algorithmic manipulation and the
digital world and it and and it's real.
It is real. I'm not denying the power of
that. Um, but it's very hard to we're
doing that map thing. It's very hard to
map that to what's happening in reality.
I I How do you do it?
>> Okay, so the way that I think about this
is it takes a very small number of very
um shrewd people to create policy that
can make the world better or way way
worse. But it's all downstream of
narrative. So I think you're right. I
think the average person doesn't think
about it. I think the average person is
absolutely lovely. uh and we should all
remind ourselves of that and have a
great time. At the same time, I think
that policies matter a lot. And when I
look at one policy in 1913, the Federal
Reserve Act was passed. I think it was
done through manipulation and spin. And
I think that we are now paying a
catastrophic price uh for that decision.
So I think what's happening now is um
you have the masses who feel something
is wrong. They can tell the system is
rigged against them. I think the average
person feels that that things are not
moving in a great direction. It's harder
to make ends meet. Inflation is 25% up
in the last 5 years. Like everybody is
going to feel that. And so now people
are just waiting for like okay well
what's the answer? Like what do we do
about this? and they're going to be
handed.
>> I'm sorry to interrupt, but if you were
on the right and felt all of those
things you said, wouldn't you be for
Trump right now, wouldn't you think, my
god, at least I got a portion of the
answer. That's why I think what they're
doing is so bizarre because
>> it comes down to who has the better
story. If Trump can make them money,
yes, they'll drop all the other stuff.
>> I completely agree. American success is
the antidote,
>> completely. That's what the antidote is.
And and again, that's why it's not hard
for me to defend Trump. And this is as
as I think you I was not a Trump
supporter the first time around. Um I'm
I'm a two-time How many other times did
I vote for him? A couple other times I
voted for him very proudly. But you're
right. That's the only thing that stops
the horseshoe. The only thing that stops
the extremes is American success. So
what I see is a guy trying to bring back
American success. Bring back America's
borders. Bring back the jobs. Lean in on
innovation and AI and do all those
things. So to me,
because my motives in this are American
success and human flourishing, and I
want America to be great and wonderful
and fulfill the promise of our ancestors
and all those things, I it's very easy
for me to defend him as you can see. And
what
>> here's the problem. Like, and I have
I've literally never said this out loud
before, so I reserve the right to take
this all back if an hour from now I'm
like, "This is terrible."
>> That's not how the internet works.
>> That the what Trump has to offer people
from a narrative perspective is simply
America's like a business. we can all be
entrepreneurial and we can make this
great again and everything's going to be
wonderful. The problem is right now the
vast majority of humans think that
entrepreneurs are completely corrupt
that uh business is extractive and that
that's not a positive vision for them.
He doesn't know how to articulate what
it means to be an American. He doesn't
know how to encapsulate the values and
give me like that rahrh speech. Even the
speech you were talking about in Saudi
Arabia which was an amazing speech. If
you're at all entrepreneurial, you heard
that speech and we're like, "Yeah, word.
This is America, Inc., baby. Run it like
a business." Like, show people how we
can unite around uh common interests,
that we can build a positive world where
we can do trade and make money and
create beautiful things for the world.
As an entrepreneur, I'm here for it. I
love it. But if you're looking at the
masses who are somewhere between neutral
and h I just have a general sense the
business guys are bad, that's that's not
a winning narrative. And so the other
two sides have an emotional narrative
that they can really get you excited
about. And that like on this side, if
you're going to take the Jordan Peterson
angle of like, okay, you might be white,
you might have original sin, but you can
step i