Kind: captions
Language: en
America doesn't win wars anymore. Not
because we've lost our strength, but
because we've lost our will. Today's
guest is retired Navy Seal commander
Jaco Willink. And in this episode, he
exposes the uncomfortable truth behind
why the West is slipping. Raising soft
men in a dangerous world. And that is
not a recipe for success. Jaco lays out
the hidden mechanics of leadership
failure across all walks of life. What
happens when ego infects your chain of
command and why the military, the
government, and corporate America are
all suffering from the same disease,
cowardice disguised as virtue. If you
want to understand why our systems are
collapsing and how to make yourself
strong enough to survive what's coming,
this is the episode to watch.
Does watching what's going on in Russia
andor Israel, Palestine, does that
trigger your strategic mind at all? Oh,
yeah. I definitely think about things
strategically. And you know, for Russia,
as strong and as mighty as Russia is,
it's guess how strong and mighty America
was in Afghanistan. Guess how strong and
mighty America was in Vietnam. Guess how
strong America and mighty was in Iraq.
That strength and that might doesn't
really mean anything in a test of wills.
And and Ukraine is fighting for the
ground that they live on. They're going
to fight to the death. and you're going
to get into I think the worst case
scenario and I is that this ends up in a
you know like a guerilla warfare. The
worst case scenario that means if if
Ukraine is just gets annihilated by
conventional type force. They're gonna
end up with a gorilla force that's going
to be picking away at Russians for the
next 10 years, 15 years, 20 years until
Russia says, "Okay, you can have your
freaking houses back." Now, I can
predict that right
now, but it has to play out. We still
have to play the game. You still have to
play the game to find out what the
outcome is. Because on
paper, I mean, look, on paper, everyone
thought Russia was going to roll into
Kev in two days and they got right to
the outskirts, but that didn't that
didn't take into the calculus the human
will and the fact that we're not these
are how this is where we live. This is
where my family is, and I'm not going
anywhere. Yeah. It's just going to be a
long blood
bath. It's going to be a long nasty
blood bath. Do you try to map the uh
minds of the people leading? Like, do
you try to think through, okay, what
what does Putin's behavior tell me about
what he actually wants? I'm not that
deep into trying to figure out exactly
what they want or exactly where they're
going to stop, you know, like what is it
going to take to get you to stop? Is it
too high level? I think no. It's just
the fact that from my experience in life
and history, it's not that it's too high
level. It's just that it is absolutely
unpredictable. This is why we get into
wars because we think America, we think
we will go and we will win. Would you
get into a fight with me? No. Okay.
Right. Cuz you don't think you could
win. Now, if you for some reason, you
know, you had a knife in your back
pocket, you had a pistol with you, and
you're like, "Okay, I can win this
thing. You're going to go and fight me."
We get into wars that we think we're
going to win, but we think we're going
to win every war and we're dumb. And
when people go to war and they think
they're going to win, they're dumb
because you don't know what's going to
happen. And would I get in a fight with
you? You think I'd attack you?
Do you? No, I wouldn't attack you
because you think you're going to lose,
unfortunately. Much but but I don't know
what you're going to do. I don't know
what you care about. I don't know if you
have a knife in your back pocket. I
don't know if you're going to bite my
ear off or bite my face. I don't know if
you're going to sue me. Like, there's so
many unpredictables that why am I going
to get engaged in this? I'd rather just
be like, "Hey, dude. Looks like you're
having a rough day, man. I'll get out of
your way." Okay, you want my parking
space? Cool. I'll drive around the
block. So, unless you corner me, I don't
want to fight you. The primary reason
that I've come up with of why America
loses wars is because we lose wars we
don't have to win.
So, when you get into a war that you
don't have to win, the chances are
you're going to lose it. The great
chances are you're going to lose it.
Does Russia need to win this war with
Ukraine? Honestly, no, they don't. They
don't need to win this war with Ukraine.
Ukraine needs to win this war. And so
therefore, when you play it out, chances
are, again, it's unpredictable. There's
all you could do is say, "Well, they
have a slightly better chance, and we're
going to pay with hundreds of thousands
of lives to figure out which answer was
correct." Wow, that is a a really
interesting insight in terms of who
needs to win and who doesn't. I think
part of the reason that, and I'm
obviously speculating, but part of the
reason that Putin hasn't taken any of
the offramps is that a he thinks he can
win to your point, but also he's turned
his economy into a war economy. He has
made huge promises to his country. And
so, while he doesn't need to win, he has
backed himself into a difficult
situation. And when it's somebody else
that you're sending to die, it gets a
little bit easier. Also to your point
about freedom and to my coming point
about how important culture is, Russia
has proven over and over and over that
they are willing to sacrifice. Now I
don't know if they care enough about
Ukraine if they identify Ukraine as
Russian soil. Uh but certainly when you
try to push into Russia, they feel some
kind of way and they react accordingly.
It's uh they've won. Yeah, they've won
all the time. They beat Napoleon. They
beat Hitler. But when they didn't have
to win in Afghanistan, what happened?
Yeah. When you look at what's going on
in Israel versus Hamas, that is not one
that I understand. Uh but do you look at
that, does it feel just like a normal
insurgency or do you see something
atypical happening? You've got two
opposing sides that don't agree and
they're at war and they're going to kill
each other until the killing is done.
Much of my thoughts around forgiveness
is like that same parable of the
scorpion and the frog, right? You know
this old parable. The scorpion says the
frog, can you carry me across the lake?
And the frog goes, but you'll sting me.
And the scorpion goes, no, if I sting
you, we'll both die. Goes, no, I won't
sting you, we both die, so I won't sting
you. So, okay. Uh, scorpion gets on the
frog's back. They halfway across the
lake. And the scorpion stings the frog.
And as they're about to drown and die,
the frog says, "Why'd you do that?" And
the scorpion says, "I'm a scorpion."
I love and hate that story all at the
same time. That's what's happening. And
and you did this to us. We're going to
do this to you in both directions.
That's what's happening. I've heard you
talk about in Vietnam, one of the big
mistakes we made was I dang Valley. I
drank Valley. I drank Valley. Uh and the
lesson learned there was, hey, just
because we killed a thousand of them and
they only killed a hundred of us means
that we're going to win. That's what I
see playing out here. What what America
didn't realize was we did not have the
appetite for the loss that they did. And
when I look at Israel versus Hamas,
Hamas under Sinir, who's dead, but has
laid a trap of we're going to take
hostages and do something absolutely
despicable, evil, horrible, and
obviously required a response, but
you're going to overrespond and you're
going to lose the world. And that's
going to be part of a larger strategy
largely of psychological warfare where
we get the whole world to turn against
you, to alienate you, and that's the
play. And it seems to be playing out so
well. There's um I don't know if you
know who Eric Weinstein is, but he uh
talks about this moment being like in um
Breaking Bad where you had one character
who his name is Mike grabs one of the
drug dealers by the lapel. And so the
drug dealer's like, "Let go." He
refuses. And so the drug dealer just
starts beating the [ __ ] out of Mike.
Israel is the guy throwing the punches.
Now, if Hamas would just give the
hostages back, they would stop punching.
Hamas doesn't want them to stop
punching. That's the whole point is to
get them to punch, to get them to
maximize civilian casualties so that
they just look absolutely terrible so
they can get isolated. You've talked
about the utility of psychological
warfare. Now, I think you use it
differently than I'm bringing it up
here, so by all means, make the right
case. But that's what I see here. I see
a game, somebody who's being far more
strategic than just a traditional
military conflict. Within a a short time
after October
7th, I was getting interviewed and I
recommended that Israel not bomb.
Really, I literally said, "Hey, they
they dropped a bunch of bombs out of the
gate." And I said, "Okay." Like, you
don't want popular opinion in the world
to turn against you. And you know,
that's kind of the way it's played out.
You know, very, very predictable.
There's no one that wants innocent
civilians, innocent Palestinians killed
more than Hamas. Every innocent
Palestinian that's get gets killed is a
really good victory for Hamas. It really
is. And I have seen some really
beautiful indications of, you know, you
see some Palestinians are now starting
to protest against Hamas openly, which
is that's Of course, it doesn't get much
press, but that is a inspiring thing to
see. Actual Palestinians in Gaza that
recognize, hey, we want this to stop and
we are willing to protest against Hamas
to try and get this to
stop. And hopefully we s see more of
that, but it's
getting suppressed. I mean, Hamas, they
obviously put shut those things down
very rapidly. Uh, it's a terrible
situation. Now, on the other hand,
Israel is, yeah, okay, we get it. You
you can sit here in in your airond
conditioned studio and tell us to stop
bombing. We just got attacked. We had
thousands of people killed and we are
not going to stop until we destroy this
this group that did it to us. And you
know what? This is war.
And they're making a decision. Clearly,
they must see. Clearly, they do see the
way that the the global view of them is
turning and they are continuing to press
and they're probably in their in their
strategic view saying, "Yep, it's going
to take us another four months. We'll
take a bunch of hate for the next four
months and then we'll be done and Hamas
will be no more and then we can move
forward." It seems like that's that's
their that's their strategy. M they can
withstand they can withstand the glo the
global
popularity falling off a cliff but when
they're done with it they're going to be
done with it. It seems like that's what
they're doing. And to my point earlier
whether that's a good move or a bad move
I don't know. And and not only do I not
know one knows. Yeah. They've made a
decision. This is what they're going to
do. You know I have pointed this out to
people. If a group came into your home
and killed your family, if that happened
to me, a group came into my home and
killed my family, I would not stop until
I destroyed as many of that group as I
possibly could and it would be a good
number. And so they did that to Israel
and Israel, they said, "Okay, you know
what? You did this to us. We're going to
we're going to now destroy you and
there's collateral damage everywhere.
the starving kids and women and children
and they're going, "Yep, this is what
we're doing." I don't I don't know how
the long-term impact of that is going to
be. Clearly, the world has turned
against Israel or much of the world has
turned against Israel. And so,
the strategic move by Hamas, you give
them like, "Oh, yeah, good job. You you
you you made a strategic victory here.
You've got the world to turn against
Israel, which is a a pretty impressive
thing to be able to do for for Hamas.
They've got the world, popular opinion,
turned against Israel, turned against
their enemy, and they did it very
rapidly. The rest of the world isn't
there. The rest of the world is watching
it and seeing whatever images are
getting propagated. On the one hand, you
see the the picture of kids in rubble.
It's awful to see Palestinian kids in
rubble. The other thing that you see a
IDF soldier patrolling down the street
and when you're an IDF soldier
patrolling down the street, I don't know
if everyone feels this, but what I feel
when I see that is this individual human
being is waiting to get sniped, blown
up, shot, killed, destroyed, maimed.
That's what that person's waiting for.
And and so each of these are
human emotional moments that are
happening and we're sitting on the here
on the outside. the rest of the world is
sitting there going, "I think you should
do this. I actually think you should do
that. There's a a script to write where
after October 7th, Israel said, I we
can't believe this happened. We what can
we do to to defend ourselves better?"
And this is terrible. And they would
have gotten sympathy from the world,
perhaps more sympathy from the world.
And same thing with with Hamas. Look at
South Africa. the way South Africa that
government was torn down over time from
international pressure that probably
could have happened eventually for for
Palestine for for Gaza for a two-state
solution whatever the case may be one of
those things could have happened but
this just throwing a grenade into the
room and seeing the the destruction the
laws of human nature have won again and
there is blood I think the next 20 years
is going to ask America the question how
much do you actually give a [ __ ] about
your values
and how far are you going to push for
them? So, I think that we're going to
have a China question and right now
we're saying, "Yeah, we're willing to
rise to the challenge economically." I
think it's going to escalate. Europe is
going through the throws of what does it
look like when you allow so many people
in your country that uh you no longer
have shared values at a societal level
and some people are willing to fight for
theirs and other people are not. We just
had the guy in Colorado light people on
fire because he believes that Israel is
out of pocket and they absolutely have
to be stopped and it is worth killing
people that shockingly have absolutely
nothing to do with it um to get people
to pay attention. And so what I'm trying
to figure out is um from a value system
perspective, at what point do you go
here's the line in the sand? I get from
a political standpoint how easy it is to
be like I'm not there on the ground.
It's just a missile from the sky. These
guys cease to exist and people are
afraid of that. And so when we say stop
[ __ ] with the ships, uh, they stop
because they don't want to get blown up.
Yeah. And I think that's the the key
component there is
we number one, how are they stopping,
you know, how are they stopping the
vessels? How were how they were
attacking free trade? And so for us to
say, yeah, you know what? Um, you can't
do that.
we're going to stop you. You don't do
that anymore or we're going to stop you.
And then if they continue to again, this
is going to infringe on on our way of
life. And then we escalate. At a certain
point, it's like, oh, do you want to go
and send troops onto the ground there to
fight against the
Houthis? No, because we don't need to.
We don't need to do that. We can keep
them at bay and they can either learn
their lesson and subdue whatever element
of them is out trying to trying to
interfere with our
shipping or we just continue to bat them
down every time they step up. H so when
I look at uh the kind of leadership that
you have done where people are actually
shooting at people there is literal life
and death
consequences that feels like it should
be the place that would have the highest
demands on leaders but be the place
where um you would naturally
find breakdown of leadership the fastest
but you don't. Is that because you guys
have this incredible filter going in?
There's one major problem with
leadership development in the military
and that is for the most part your
military leadership positions are held
for about two years. And what that means
is I'm a young officer in the military
in the army or in the Marine Corps and I
take over a platoon. And for a while,
you know, you just met me and you're one
of my guys in my platoon and your first
impressions are like, "Oh, well, we
can't really judge him because I I'm a
trained professional, right? I went to
West Point. I went to the Naval Academy.
I went to Officer Candidate School. So,
I've learned a certain way to behave
that is acceptable within the norms."
And so, I learned that and I'm going to
project that. And so, for a while,
that's what you see. You see that thing
that I learned that I'm projecting. Now,
it takes about the first few months that
we're together as a platoon. We're not
really doing anything. It's some
administrative stuff and and and so you
don't really see my leadership in any
way, shape or form. Maybe I even present
a pretty good front. Like I come out and
talk to the troops and you guys, oh,
he's pretty articulate guy.
Cool. And then a few months go by and
now we're going to start working
together in the field. We're going to go
out and start doing training exercises.
Well, the first couple training
exercises you start, you know, the first
one goes a little bit ary and maybe you
hear me getting a little bit flustered
or maybe I lose my temper or something
like that and you go, "Wait a what's
going on here?" And but that was one
mission. The next mission goes a little
bit smoother. So you Oh, okay. It must
have been just an anomaly. You see what
I'm saying? It takes a long takes
months of you looking at me and the
platoon looking at me and studying me
and finally you see me lose my temper
again. And then every time the pressure
mounts, I start, like I said, losing my
temper. That's a good example. I'm
losing my temper. I'm yelling and
screaming. I don't listen to anybody
else. It took you eight months to figure
that out. So now we're about to go on
deployment. And as we're about to go on
deployment, you and your platoon, the
the platoon gets together and what do we
do? Well, do we have a mutiny? Do we
bring this up to the commanding officer?
There's a bunch of other options. Like,
then none of them are good because now
if you if I get fired now, guess what
our reputation of our whole platoon is?
Our whole platoon is bad. So, the
platoon goes, you know what? Just deal
with it. We can we can we can manage him
for a little while. Now, we go on
deployment. I do really dumb stuff, but
now you're really covering for me. your
platu. The platoon is great troops and
they're just doing everything they can,
bending over backwards to make sure that
I'm successful even though I'm an idiot.
We get back from deployment. We you the
platoon did such good work that even
though I'm an idiot, we performed our
mission. We got accolades for our
mission. I was pretty good at
articulating. So when I went and talked
to the battalion commander, I looked
pretty good and he gave me an upcheck.
And so what happens? The platoon's over.
And you, by the way, you all for the
last two months of deployment were just
holding your breath. waiting for someone
else for for when my time is over. So my
time's over and guess what? I actually
get good grades and I get promoted.
And that can happen through a whole
military career. So the fact that that
that 2-year window of leadership, you
can kind of get through anything for two
years and and bad people can get
promoted. That happens. And you can
certainly look at our some of our flag
and general officers and go, "How is
this person a an admiral?" or "How is
this person a general?" Some of them I
look at, I go, "This is amazing. This
person should be president of the United
States. This person is incredible." But
it's not always like that. So I don't
look at the military as this factory of
good leaders. I look at it as a testing
ground where some leaders get experience
and and and they develop in a way that
is phenomenal and they end up being
great leaders. There's also a bunch of
knuckleheads in there. That's the that's
the cold reality of it. Yeah, for sure.
Uh in the business world, very similar,
at least from where I'm sitting, the
whole idea of people get promoted to the
level of their incompetence. When I
first heard that, I was like, what? And
then I realized, oh yeah, it's exactly
true. like you'll do good at this job.
So then they're like, "Hey, you know,
it's this pyramid, so there's ever fewer
positions. So we've got to move you to
something that maybe you haven't done
before, but you were so good at the
thing that you did previously, I owe you
that promotion, and so I move you." And
then eventually you get to the point
where you stall out because you're not
good and nobody wants to go backwards.
So um in business, it's like this
constant culling of I if you're doing it
well. So when I'm teaching
entrepreneurs, I am ruthless about
listen, you want to give people an
opportunity. You want to make sure that
they know what success looks like. You
want to make sure that you create an
environment where they're getting the
feedback they need on and on. But if
you've got somebody that can't do the
job, you've got to get them out of that
role. So that would be sort of my rough
swag at what the um the ultimate factory
for leadership is that you just said the
military is not. But what would you say
like what is the factory that you want
to set up? What are the things that we
all need to go through assuming that
either we're at the beginning of our
career or we're now at the point where
we're at our incompetence, but we don't
want to get stuck there. The
ability to be humble enough to look and
see what you're doing and see what your
shortfalls are. To me, that's the most
important thing for leadership
development. The minute that someone is
saying, "Hey, you know what? I've got
this figured out. You're damn right. I
should be put in this role next because
I deserve to be there. The minute that
that that attitude starts to take over
our minds, that's when we become
problematic. So with all the leaders
I've worked with, there's only one
there's only like one type of person in
my experience that cannot improve as a
leader, and that's a person that's
arrogant. A humble person, somebody
who's dumb.
Yeah, dumb. Dumb. Dumb will get in
there, too. Dumb will get in there, too.
But if you have someone that's
dumb, but they're humble, we can work
with that. So if I'm your platoon
commander and I'm not the sharpest tool
in the shed, but I'm humble enough to
say, "How do you guys think we should do
this?" We'll be okay. We We'll be okay.
Because I'll be, you know, the dumb
person, if they're surrounded by some
people that are smart enough and humble
enough themselves, right? Because if if
I work for you and you're an idiot and
my goal then is to call you out as an
idiot and make you look bad and
undermine you, it's not going to work.
It's going to fail. But if if you're my
boss and you're an idiot, but I'm humble
enough to be like, "Hey, you know what?
He's the boss. He's not the sharpest
tool in the shed, but you know what? At
least he's listening to what I say and
we can put together good plans. I can
get with the team and we can go and
execute them and he'll get the credit,
but I don't care. We'll be fine."
So, as long as the a person that might
not be the the smartest person is has
some good people around them and they're
humble enough to say, "Oh, yeah. I'm I'm
a little o over my o underwater here. As
long as I can say that, I'll be okay."
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Power vacuums tend to arise. So you are
correct in what you're saying, at least
in my experience uh in the corporate
world that if you've got a boss who's an
idiot, the funny thing is I will play
the clip of you saying this went wrong.
Good. This went wrong. Good. Uh when
people complain about, oh, my boss is an
idiot, I'm like good. This is your
chance. It's like you've got an
opportunity to rise up. There's a power
vacuum that you can fill it. But I do
worry that there are two things that
will um wreak havoc no matter where
you're at. Military, politics,
corporation, and that is stupidity and
arrogance. Um I probably am more afraid
of stupidity than you are. It sounds
like. Yeah, it sounds like um I I've
worked for some dumb people that were
actually pretty good bosses. Yes.
Interesting. So that'll be that'll be
fun to it out. So So push on that for
me. you're in that situation, the power
vacuum opens up. What have you seen in
that next layer down? Do do people
battle? Like, is this a
um you're you're so good at being the
guy underneath the idiot that everybody
just sort of realizes they can draft off
you and you're smart enough to know 48
laws of power. Don't try to outshine
this guy. Let him take the lead. Like,
is that what's going on? when you watch
groups that don't have you, what
normally happens when a power vacuum
opens up? It it really just depends on
the dynamics of the group
because if you this is so this is a
perfect thing that I used to explain
with a SEAL platoon. So when I the my
the last part of my career in the SEAL
teams, I was training the SEAL platoon
to go on deployment to it was at the
time it was Iraq or Afghanistan. And
when I first took over, I thought to
myself,
okay, I really hope that this platoon
commander is a good leader, and I hope
that the platoon chief is a good leader,
and I hope that the the assistant
platoon commander is a good leader, and
and I hope that the leading petty
officer is a good leader. So, I had this
this hope in my mind that the the senior
leaders were good leaders. Mhm.
And
after training a bunch of SEAL platoon
over time, what I actually hoped for was
that there was
a a good leader in the platoon. It
didn't even have to be, we call that
group the the top four. That's like the
leadership, the designated on paper
leadership of the platoon. What if one
of them was a really good leader? Great.
But if none of them were really great
leaders, but you had a one really good
just enlisted sled dog, he could he
could run that whole platoon. And if he
was smart, he would recognize that he
had that power. And I would see this a
lot where he'd be like, "Oh yeah, the
the
real chain of command in what a platoon
looked like would look nothing what it
looked like on paper." But if that young
guy was smart enough, he would it didn't
matter. He knew he was the he knew he
was the the top of the hierarchy in the
platoon in terms of
actual
leadership. And if he understood that
dynamic and he was okay with the fact
that even though on paper he wasn't the
guy, it didn't really matter to him. He
just wanted the platoon to win. Those
platoon happens all the time, they would
be great. The problem would come where
either that guy his ego was too big and
he wanted the credit or the the top four
someone in the top four didn't like the
fact that that someone else was stepping
on the power dynamic. They didn't like
the the
the unwritten leadership chain of
command. They didn't like that and they
would then undermine that guy and you
get infighting. So what both those
problems boil down to is ego. Like
either either ego could disrupt the
whole thing. either someone in the top
four didn't like, you know, hey, why are
we letting him come up with a plan? I'm
the one that's in charge. Boom. Just
self-destruction.
So, generally, if we have people that
are smart enough and understand the
world well enough, they get in that
situation, they go, "Oh, yeah. Oh, I get
it. Tom's the leader. He's
inexperienced. He doesn't have the best
mind for this, but that's okay. He's
listening to me. I've built a good
relationship with him. I'm going to take
this thing a home run all day." or Tom
doesn't have much experience. He doesn't
have the best mind for this. I deserve
to be there. I'm gonna undermine him.
Everyone's going to know that I'm the
guy and we're going to self-destruct.
Yeah, that is uh that is everpresent
everywhere you look. It is indeed. Um
talk to me about Pete Hegsth. So, I know
you don't know him well, but you
certainly know who he is. Yeah, he is
finding himself as the Secretary of
Defense going into what I would say is a
largely hostile environment. Uh but the
people work for him. How do you express
good leadership in a moment like that?
You've got all the world's eyes on you,
certainly the politically aware eyes.
Um, you have some percentage, whether
it's one or 99, I have no idea, that are
actively trying to undermine you. Um,
it's certainly tempting at that point
when you've got everybody like coming at
you to grab callers and [ __ ] a fist. Uh,
but I'm guessing that's not the advice.
How do you navigate that situation?
Well, I think one of the most disarming
things you can do and it's and it's not
like a ninja trick. It's a it's a real
thing is when you tell
me that, hey Jono, you don't have enough
experience to do this. My answer as Jaco
is, I agree with you. You're right. I
don't have a lot of experience here.
That's why I'm going to rely on you and
the rest of the team to help me. Or when
you come at me and you say, "Hey,
um, you seem like you lose your temper
sometimes." I don't say you're, "No, I
don't." No, I say, "You know what? Yeah,
I do. I lose my temper sometimes." And
you know what? That's why I'm counting
on you to help me through those moments.
Or when you see, we can go or you come
at me and you say, "Hey, Jono, you're
you're dumb." I don't say, "No, I'm not.
I'm smart. I went to college. I I I I
got A's in high school." I don't say
that. I say, "Yeah, you know what?
There's definitely some some areas where
I am academically challenged and I'm
going to need some help. And I think
that's the best way to approach when
people are being critical is to say,
"Yeah, you're right. You should be
critical of me. I'm not perfect. I I
will make mistakes. I have made
mistakes. I will make mistakes. I'm
going to be open about them. I'm going
to take ownership of them and we're
going to get through it. That's what
we're doing." So that that's you know if
I'm
surrounded by a bunch of people that
don't like me you know I took over a
SEAL platoon where the the platoon
commander had been fired and some of the
guys were waiting for that guy to get
fired and some of the guys did not want
that guy to get fired and so it was this
not the exact same situation but it was
a similar situation in that I had some
people that were open-minded to me
showing up and some people that were
angry at me for being there and you know
I rolled into it with that sort of
attitude like okay yep hey you like the
guy that got fired. Okay, what what did
you like about him? Let me make sure I
continue with with some of those things.
Oh, and you guys that didn't like him,
what didn't you like about him? Let me
make sure that I don't adapt some of
those things. So, I think it's just
keeping an open mind, not getting too
defensive. And look, it's got to be uh
it's got to be wearing to just have
people attacking you all day long when
you're trying to do a job. It's got to
be wearing, but that's the job. Good.
Yeah, that's the job. I mean, you go
into that political spectrum and you are
going to
immediately there's a whole group of
people that are going to do everything
they can to destroy you and that's
what's happening. Do you try to ferret
them out, build alliances against them?
Like is there a we gotta cocoon the
threats or I think if you have some
people that are not
aligned like they're truly not trying to
go to the same place that I'm going to
cuz that that's a problem. Look, if you
and I have the same goal and you want to
go one way and I want to go go a
different way to get there, I'm okay
with that. But if I'm trying to get here
and you're trying to go over here, we
have a problem. So, and that shouldn't
happen very often. I mean, it's the it's
the United States of America. It's the
United States military. What do we want
our troops to be unsafe? Do you want our
troops to be unsafe? No, we don't want
that. Do you want our troops to be taken
care of? Yes, we want that. Do we want
them to have good equipment? Yes, we
want that. So, there's a bunch of things
where it's like, oh yeah, you think it
should be go this way, but okay. Uh,
most people, I think, are on board with
the goals of the Department of Defense,
but if we have someone that's not on
board, okay, we're going to find them.
And yeah, I would get rid of them
because they're not aligned with what
we're trying to do. So I have in the
last couple of years become obsessed
with uh Mchaveli, James Burnham, people
that really look at the political arena
as a game of power, control,
manipulation, and that if you're trying
to map that arena, you're going to be
constantly confused if you take them to
be sincere actors that are simply trying
to make the world a better place. And uh
James Bernham wrote a book called the
Mchavellians, the defenders of freedom,
people who believe that they are. So
basically his thesis is there's always
going to be an elite group. It doesn't
matter if it's you and your brother. One
of you is going to be in a position of
leadership. And to your point,
oftentimes the real leadership is very
different than what's written on paper.
But there's always a command structure.
Somebody's in lead, other people are
following. And of course it will change
from time to time but but you have that
structure given that it's inescapable.
You then have to understand what is the
nature of man is political animal. And
so he comes down on the I would say very
eloquently and proves it pretty
forcefully in his book and it certainly
echoes the prince uh written by Makaveli
himself. It echoes what um Robert Green
wrote in the 48 laws of power that there
are just some of these immutable truths
and I've heard you say this. Human
nature shows up everywhere you go. Uh,
and if it is true that human nature has
this, um, the things I need to do to get
into power and stay in power are
somewhat knowable, somewhat predictable,
and from where I'm sitting, pretty ugly.
Um, how one, do you accept that premise
or you like that's just ridiculous on
its face? uh if you do accept the
premise, one thing is every time I
research you that I always walk away
with is to miss your optimism would be
to miss your sort of fundamental nature.
And so I can feel myself getting pulled
out of my optimism into like this
fatalistic really dark thing that I'm
trying to steer myself back out of. Uh,
so I'd love to get your sense of if this
is a Mchavelian world, um, how do you
stay focused, positive, and not get
sucked into the darkness? Well, luckily,
I think there is alignment between doing
good things and, for lack of a better
way of the way you just said it, staying
in power, right? And I I I got asked a
while ago about
um like medical some some some type of
question around the fact that medical
corporations are evil. I got I got posed
some kind of question like that. And I
had recently been working with a medical
company who had made a ton of money like
you know hundreds and hundreds of
millions of dollars.
And you could look at them and say,
"Well, they're evil, right?" Cuz they're
making all this money off of the the
sickness of human
beings. And I was at one of their events
and they brought out on stage this like
young girl who had been her life had
been saved by this technology.
And my point in saying that is like you
have alignment between yes, these people
are making a lot of money and they're
also doing something good at the same
time. So when I look at this power
dynamic or this struggle for power, if
you're not doing something for America
that's going to help America move
forward, then you should not be in power
and you should be removed from power.
But if you're doing things that are
helping America and helping the people
of America, and if you do that well,
then you should stay in power. If you're
just looking out for yourself, going
back to my earlier point, if if I'm over
here just lining my own pockets as
America falls, then I should be removed
from power. If I'm over here and America
is doing well and maybe my my own life
is progressing because now I'm in
whatever position I'm in, but I'm doing
a good job because I'm helping America.
I think that it's fine. So, I don't I
don't really see these two things as
mutually exclusive. like you can't do
something good for America and stay in
power. I don't think you need to
undermine America in order to stay in
power. I think you can actually do good
things for the country and because you
do good things for the country, you stay
in power. One of the ways that the world
works is that um psychological
influence, to put the nicest spin on it,
works and works very well. Um I see you
as somebody who's moving into the world
of cultural influence. tell the story if
you don't mind of what made you decide
to write your first book and then what
it was that you're trying to um help
parents teach their kids. Yeah. I went
and and got a book at the bookstore for
my son and it was like a pirate book and
it had a pretty cool cover. It looked
like a pirate book and the pirate book
ended up being like the weakest, most
pathetic pirates ever. And I was
disappointed. And so I just thought to
myself, I'm going to write books so that
I can convey the type of values and
lessons learned that I would want my
kids to have and I would want, you know,
my neighbors kids to have and my friends
kids to have. And so that's why I wrote
the books. And so what are those values?
It's hard work. It's helping other
people out. It's studying hard. doing
the best that you can in in whatever
endeavor you're undertaking. It's all
those
things. And one of I think the most
important underlying messages and
probably the most important underlying
message is that you can decide who you
want to become and you can become that
person. So, you know, in the book, the
kid is weak, can't do any pull-ups,
doesn't know how to swim, doesn't know
his times tables, and he's getting
picked on by the school bully.
That's a rough place to be in for a
10-year-old kid. And what his uncle
teaches him is you don't have to be
weak. You can work out and you can
become stronger. You can eat better
foods. You can study and you can become
smarter. You can learn how to swim and
you can learn how to fight and defend
yourself. And so you can actually become
through hard work and through
discipline, you can become who you want
to become. So that's the message that I
wanted to get to my kids and by the time
it came out my kids were pretty much a
little too old for it. But luckily they
they absorbed that message in other
ways. Was that like a sort of intimate
decision where it was like I wanted
something for my kids and so I did it
and it felt intimate or is there a sense
of like I think I can actually nudge
culture in a direction they culture is
hungry for this kind of story. I bet
there's a lot of parents just like me
that have kids going through the same
thing. Like do you think at that level
like I I want to bump culture in a
certain direction or is it a much more
local decision for you?
When I was writing the first book, I was
typing and I I felt like I was looking
over my
shoulder thinking to myself, I hope no
one sees what I'm doing because this is
the best idea ever. Like the world needs
this right now. I need it. The world
needs it. I can't believe no one's
written this yet. And so, yeah, I felt
like people were going to go, that's it.
That's what we've been looking for. And
they
were. So, it worked. But I definitely
had that feeling. Yep. I was Yep.
writing that book, I was thinking people
are going to kids are going to want this
book and parents are going to want this
the kids to have that book.
How far are you like how deeply do you
want that to take root? For me, when I'm
doing the especially the lives I talk a
lot about like America needs to refine
that thing that we had when I was a kid
where it was uh you wanted to be tough,
you believe that you could do anything.
you had Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester
Stallone, JeanClaude Vanam, uh you know,
just so many guys playing like this
really tough guy role. And I get how to
a modern audience that probably looks
super cheesy, but at the time it felt so
cool. Um, and I really want to see
America re-imbrace that. Now I take it
to an extreme. I think that we are on
the precipice of something exceedingly
dangerous for uh I think countries go
broke all the time. I think countries go
from number one to middle of the pack
faster than you can snap your fingers.
If anybody wants a lesson in that, look
at Argentina was at the absolute top of
the South American pile only to find
themselves hyperinflating their currency
and going to absolutely nothing and
struggling. Uh, and the only way to
begin the process of coming back is to
go through so much pain and suffering.
Uh, whenever your debt gets to the level
that we have debt at, basically it ends
in war, bloodshed of some kind. You can
have your French version where you're
just lopping people's heads off in the
streets or uh you can go to war like
England did. Um but none of those seem
like good outcomes to me. So I'm like,
"All right, how do you attack this
problem?" You attack it at the cultural
level. You focus on kids. Uh you give
them this message. And so every time I
see you, for people that don't know, you
have a movie that's going to be coming
out. Would love to hear more about that.
But do you have any sense of urgency? It
sounds like you do understand this was a
huge vacuum, but do you have a sense of
urgency for America or do you think I'm
sort of overstating the problem? I, you
know, it's it's one of those things
where I have kids, right? And I see what
my kids are doing and I see what their
friends are doing and I see them hanging
out and what they're doing and I don't
I'm not despared at all. I'm kind of
like pretty stoked. You know, kids are
out there. I I think they're healthier
right now than they ever have been.
There's the kids aren't drinking as much
as they used to. I don't know what it
was like when you were a kid, but when I
was a kid and when I say a kid, but when
I was in the in the SEAL teams, like
alcohol was everywhere
and kids are drinking less, less drugs,
they're more healthy. I think they've
uh started to embrace things like the
idea of extreme ownership of the first
book that I wrote, which wasn't aimed at
kids. It's aimed at adults, but like
people want to take ownership of their
life. People want to be responsible for
what's going on in their world. And I
think that's happening more and more.
And I think there's a meme world of of
uh you know, the boomers, right? The
boomers bought their house for
$6,000, you know, and and now you know,
no one can afford a house. It's like,
okay, so there's some there's some young
people that say you you the boomers got
their houses for $6,000 and we have to
pay a half a million for a onebedroom
whatever. And and so there's there's
that, but there's also people that are
like, "Oh yeah, that's what it cost for
a house now. Cool. What do I need to do
to make it happen?" And also, you know
what? The market goes up and down and
we'll I'll find a way and they'll figure
it out. So, I think there's a little bit
of both, but I'm not
overwhelmingly dis like like
overwhelmingly fearing that the younger
generation is not going to step up and
do good things, do positive things in
the world. And when I I work with
military, like you work with young
military people, they're young military
people. They're they're ready to rock
and roll. they're ready to get some.
Like that's what they're ready to do.
So, yeah. And and same thing with like I
work with big companies with
construction companies and there's
22-year-old kids that are working
construction kids. 22-year-old young men
that are out there working construction.
They're they're iron workers. They're
pouring concrete. Like they're doing
like we have lights on in this place
right now cuz a lineman was out there
two days ago in the wind or whatever
repairing the power lines that give us
power. this stuff is happening. That
that's not a 70-year-old guy from the
greatest or you know a Vietnam. No, it's
a kid. It's a guy that went to lineman
school and he's a lineman now. So, as
much as I I hear a lot of, you know,
when you look at social media, when I
look at social media, who are we seeing?
We're seeing the kids that are on social
media. A lot of kids that are not
posting themselves cuz they're not at
the nightclub with champagne because
they're hanging from a a power line
reinstalling a a wire. That's what's
happening. and and that's awesome. So I
I see a lot of the world beyond what
what is presented via social media. And
what I see is Americans that are out
there working really hard to make things
happen, build companies, create things,
work hard, save their money, be healthy.
I see that a lot. I don't have a
pessimistic a pessimistic view of
America. Now, I'll tell you, maybe three
or four years ago, I might have been a
slightly more pessimistic, but even
then, I was talking to guys that were 23
years old, working on an oil rig, saving
money, making money, going to school to
figure out how to get that next level.
Like, I think they're out there. I I
know they're out there. I talked to
them. So, I don't have a pessimistic
view. And I also think that our lives
have not been affected greatly in terms
of like the the way that we live in
America from a war since World War II.
Like in the Korean War, obviously if you
were if you were a a family member, your
gold star family or you had people
overseas, it affected you. But most
Americans, they were still doing what
normal Americans do. When I was in Iraq,
most Americans were at Starbucks
ordering a double latte, whatever those
things are that they order. They were
driving their car, their nice car, they
were surfing the internet. All those
things were happening while we were at
war. So, we haven't had a war or even an
maybe I guess you could say COVID kind
of impact co impacted us on masks, but
it was also one of those things where we
were looking around like, wait a second,
what's what's going on here? It took us
a while to figure out, hold on, what is
actually happening? So, everyone kind of
went, "Oh, wait. This is this seems
weird. Wait, if I think if something
like that happened again today, America
would be a lot different. America would
be a lot different in the way we
respond. Americans, yeah, our American
populace would be a lot different in the
way that we responded as a group." The
the government really lost a lot of
trust on that and the media lost a lot
of trust. And so, I don't see that
happening again. I don't see something
like that happening again. Um, so but
but by and large the values that I put
out in the way of the warrior kid,
there's a reason why that book sells
like crazy. There's a reason why kids
listen I have a warrior kid podcast.
Kids listen to that over and over and
over again and their parents play it for
them on their way to jiu-jitsu class.
There's a reason because they want to be
like that. And more important, they
recognize that those things are
true. That those things are true. That's
what they recognize. It resonates with
them. Just like a good song, when you
hear a good song, there's something
inherent in the in the chords that are
put together on the guitar that are
inherent that resonate with us, that
resonate with people. And there's truths
in that book that resonate with people.
when they when they read it, they go,
"Oh, yep. This is it. This is what we
should be doing. This is what my kids
should be doing." And and that's why I
think I'm I'm
not I I I'm to use your word,
optimistic. I love it. The Warrior Kid
podcast, is that you talking to kids?
It's just me. I'll talk about I'll read
stories. I'll actually a lot of them are
me just answer answering questions for
kids. you know, I'm g I'm in fifth grade
and this there's a kid that's mean to
me. What should I do? You know, just
those kind of standard things that kids
go through. That is incredible that
you've built a brand that can reach down
to kids. Do they find you through their
parents or through the Warrior Kid book?
How I think both. That's really
interesting, man. You seem like you
would scare the life out of somebody in
the fifth grade. But Oh, I'm I'm I'm
horrifying to a child. Like I am I mean
I am one scary looking human to a child
for sure. Uh and and but it sounds like
they get it. Like they get it because I
you know I believe it or not even though
I look scary I'm I I'll interact really
well with kids. I I interact with kids
better than I interact with adults
because I think I relate to them more.
Kids are cooler and more honest and and
yeah, I have more more fun interactions
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back to the show. We were talking off
off camera. It is really really really
interesting to me about how creative you
are, how much of that side of your
personality exists. You've got so much
um to be fancy bonafiday from the be
tough be strong whether it's the
military which obviously is unbelievable
uh what you've gone through seen done
the level that you performed at all of
that uh jiu-jitsu the continued strength
into your um I don't know how old you
are but uh certainly 53 okay Jesus so
you're in better shape in 53 than most
23 years are 23 year olds are just yeah
most people uh never get into your kind
of shape. Most people by the time they
their 40s are making excuses. So, uh
it's absolutely incredible. But then I
hear that you also do music, you're
writing kids books. Um you've now
written your first screenplay, which I
hear has been optioned. But before we
get to that, your book, your children's
book has been turned into a feature
film. Walk us through that process,
which is incredible. I mean, this is
like you're lit living my fantasy. Um so
I am I am really blown away at the um
dexterity of your mind, the the breadth
of your personality. It's really
inspiring. I would say uh very very
lucky beyond anything else. Very very
lucky. I been lucky and I got lucky with
that whole thing. Um the story of the
movie
is I wrote the books and there's a guy
that I did not know at the time. His
name is Ben Everard. And
Ben has a couple kids. And he walked
into his kids' bedroom one day and they
were doing push-ups. And he says, "What
are you guys doing?" And they hold up
this book, We Want to Be Warrior Kids.
Do you know how they found the book? I
don't know. I think they got it from
school. I think they got it from school
library.
And you know, Ben, who's a happens to be
a movie producer, he was like, "What
what is happening? How did a book make
my kids do push-ups? I can't even get my
kids to, you know, make their bed." And
here they are doing push-ups. So he
reads the book and he's like, "Oh my
gosh, I gotta make this into a movie."
Friend of a friend. He He had known a
guy. I had known a guy. He reached out
to that guy like, "You worked with this
guy?" Yep. Ben set up a meeting with me,
drove down to my gym in San Diego and
presented me
his his vision, but also his
understanding. like he I'd been I'd had
quite a few not quite a few but I
probably had four or five offers over
the years of buying Warrior Kid to make
it into a movie, but he's the guy that
sat down and said, "I see it." So, you'd
turned all those down. Yeah. But but I
don't want to glamorize that too much.
I'd have people say, "Hey, you know,
we're interested in turning this." They
didn't they didn't, you know, they'd
send me an email. They'd they'd call me
up or something like that. But no one
like he
was read fully understood the book
understood the impact on his kids and
came down and said I can I see it I see
how this becomes what it deserves to
become and I said okay cool let's go and
so we started kind of formulating the
idea behind the movie next thing you
know we needed uh the next thing he
wanted to do was a screenplay and so he
said look you know if we want to bring
this to market we got to put together
package. Part of the package is the
screenplay. And I said, cool. You know,
I'll write the
screenplay. And he
said, "We should hire someone to read
write the screenplay." And I was kind of
like, "Well, you know, hey, all due
respect, I've written a dozen books.
I've written a bunch of New York Times
bestsellers. I I I know how to write.
I'll write the screenplay." And, you
know, he said, "Look, it's not the same.
It's it's a movie. It's a different
medium. It's a different skill. and we
should hire someone. And luckily talking
earlier about being humble, I wasn't
like, "No, I got this." I was like,
"Okay, you know what? This guy's a pro.
He's aligned with me. He wants the movie
to do well, right? He want he has this
vision. We're aligned on the vision."
And so I know that what he's making he's
he's saying this not to undermine me,
but because he has the same vision. He
wants to do well. So I said, "Okay,
cool." So, we hire, we uh interview a
few screenwriters, and we finally land
on this guy named Will Staples who's
whose dad was a helicopter pilot in
Vietnam, which to me was like, "Okay,
you're you're in."
But this was right before again,
Hollywood. Well, we're in Hollywood
right now, so Hollywood uh screenwriting
or or strike was going to happen.
Writing strike was going to happen. So,
we wanted him to write the screenplay
before this strike was coming. And so,
we said, "Yep, let's make that happen."
And then Ben said to me, "Okay, I'm
going to find investors to pay for the
screenplay." And I was kind of like,
"Well, well, like, how much is it?" And
he told me how much it was. And I said,
"Well, what if I just pay for it?" And
he was kind of like, "You want to pay
for it?" And I said, "Well, yeah." And
what I didn't realize at the time and
what Ben didn't tell me is, and you know
this,
0001% of screenplays get turned into a
movie, right? So you are putting you're
putting money towards something that the
likelihood of success is almost zero.
Yeah. I didn't even know that. In my
mind, of course, everything is awesome.
Right. In my mind, I'm thinking, "Oh,
yeah. Of course, of course I'll pay for
the screenplay because then I'll own the
screenplay and then when a movie company
studio buys it, then I'll just make more
money. Great. Cool. No risk. In my mind,
there was no risk. In his mind, it was
all risk. But, you know, and he he
hinted at like, "Hey, this, you know,
there's no guarantee on this." I said,
"Okay, cool." So, I paid for the
screenplay, wrote the screenplay. The
screenplay was just and and we did it in
three weeks. You know, he's sending us a
draft. We're sending adjustments back.
Change this. Make this happen. And the
screenplay was was was beautiful. It was
just beautiful.
So, as that's happening on another part
of my
world, Jaco Fuel and Origin USA, Jaco
Fuel supplement company, Origin USA
clothing company, all 100% manufactured
and made in America with Americanmade
materials. As that's
happening, Chris Pratt, whose friends or
was in a series called The Terminal
List, which was written by a friend of
mine named Jack Carr, who's another
SEAL. So, they had obviously a
relationship. And then another friend of
mine named Jared, who's another SEAL,
trained Chris Pratt for the Terminalist.
And while he was training Chris Pratt
for the terminalist to get in shape and
be a stud, he gave him Jaco Fuel. And
he'd give him a bunch of different
supplements. Chris liked Jaco Fuel and
so he started taking Jaco Fuel all the
time and so he gets in great
shape and he eventually reaches out to
me. This was prior to the screenplay,
prior to any of that. Chris Pratt says,
you know, hey, I'd really like to I I
love what you're making and I love what
you're doing with Origin USA cuz he's a
patriotic guy. And he says, cool. Um I
would really like to do something. So we
start having so we kind of say, "Yeah,
let's do something together." And then
our business, you know, counterparts
start talking, right? What would this
look like? And meanwhile, Ben says, you
know, like, "Hey, you should you should
show this this script to Chris Pratt."
And I'm like, "Dude, I am not showing
this thing to Chris Pratt. I I mean, I I
I can't do that. The guy is a super nice
guy. He wants to do he he wants to do a
different project and now I'm going to
go and, you know, hey, by the way, I've
got this screenplay." It just it just I
couldn't do it. Yeah, Chris is too nice
of a guy. He was too like open and too
uh uh just just too nice of a guy for me
to be like, "And by the way, I'd like to
sneak this business deal." I just
couldn't do it. And so I said, "Look,
man, I'm not I'm not doing it." But what
happened was as our business people were
having the conversation, my business
people were like, "Well, you know, Jo
was working on that movie." And his
business people were like, "What movie?"
"Oh, it's a kids movie based on this
warrior kid book." And they said, "Well,
send us the screenplay." So my people
sent Chris's people the screenplay and
they read it and went, "Oh my god, this
is awesome."
They give it to
Chris's film
agent and this woman, they call her Dr.
No because she says no to everything.
Yeah. And when I met her for the first
time, she said, "It's great to meet
you." She said, "I read this script. I
wiped the tears from my eyes when I got
done reading it and I called Chris and
said, "You better make this movie." Wow.
So, that was at our first big meeting.
Nonetheless, once Chris got the script,
Chris read it. He said he read in one
sitting, same thing. Tears like, "This
is epic. We're going to make this
movie." And so, then we
had we had a package because we also
brought on the director, MC G, who is
awesome, like just such a great guy. uh
came up through the music video world,
but then eventually did Charlie's
Angels, you know, and just blew up from
there and has a bunch of epic stuff
going on. So, that was the package and
that's what we kind of brought to the
market. We want to make this movie and
eventually um Sky Dance and Apple came
in and said, "We want it." It's
incredible. Did you guys make the whole
film before you sold it to Sky Dance and
Apple? Okay. So, they actually foot the
bill. They foot the bill. That's
incredible. They paid for it. That's so
exciting. It was crazy. Have you did you
have ambitions like I know one day I'm
going to write fiction or did that take
you by surprise? You know, I always
wrote a lot and fiction stuff.
Everything. Okay. Um and I was actually
I found an old story that I wrote the
other day and I was like this is and I
probably wrote it when I was like 15 or
16 and it's freaking awesome and I was
like dude this is so cool. I love this.
I'll tell you the story real quick. It
was like a short story and there was
this there was these um like an old
lumber town and there was a train that
left the lumber yard and and and drove
down these
tracks out of and it came out of a
tunnel. And depending on where it was
going to go, it would be on one of three
tracks. And these young kids got this
idea where they would, it was like
playing Russian roulette. They'd stand
above this tunnel and jump down as the
train was coming out. And if they picked
the right track, they'd be okay. And if
they picked the wrong track, they would
die. Yeah. And it's just a whole story
about where it goes from there. But
that's interesting. At 15, talk about
like I was 15 or 16 years old. That's a
totally fictional story that I made up.
So, yes, I've been writing for a long
time. That's really interesting. Um,
have you seen the movie Contact?
No. Oh my god. So, uh, movie Contact.
The book was written by Carl Sean. Okay.
And uh for people that don't know, um I
think he was an astrophysicist, but
certainly was he was like the Neil
Degrass Tyson of his day, but I would
say much more famous and dare I say
respected. But he
um writes this book
and in it this woman ends up they they
get from aliens. They get instructions
on how to build uh it's not time travel,
but because it bends space and time,
might as well be. So, they build this
device. It's going to allow her to
explore the cosmos. They end up sending
her because of her, it doesn't matter
why, but they end up sending her, she's
a scientist, and as she's going through
the wormhole, she's describing back to
NASA or whatever, like what she sees and
all this stuff. And uh she goes, "They
should have sent a poet."
And I always thought that was a
phenomenal line. Now hearing you talk
about this, I realize that we sent a
writer to war
and I now want to see what it's like to
be on the ground because I and Jaco, you
may have told me this stuff before like
it rings a disbel thing, but I I didn't
update my mental map of who you are, but
today when we were talking, I've been
following the story stuff closely
because I'm so impressed by it and it
it's so in line with the kind of thing I
want to do. Uh, so just am completely
blown away by that. And so today, for
some reason, I was just like, hold on a
second. We've got this guy. He's in one
package, but inside there is um
leadership is so on brand with the
physicality, that one didn't jar me. But
this is like writing stories from the
time you were a kid. You told me that
you won an art contest at your high
school, which is like a pretty big deal.
Um, musician.
Now, dude, you're a published author of
kids stories, but like that sell, not
like, hey, I wrote a thing and I printed
it for six people. Like, and then it got
turned into a movie. Chris Pratt, I
mean, one of the most famous human
beings on planet Earth. It's not small
time. Like, there's a damn good reason
for it. Yeah. Like, this is like you've
really like you're you're doing a thing
that I saw Kobe do and I was so
mortified when he died. Never met him,
never interviewed him. Certainly blown
away by the Mamba mentality. But more
importantly, he went from being a
basketball player and then won an
Academy Award for filmm. And I was like,
whoa. It's very rare that someone can
take that thing, whatever that thing is,
that discipline, that focus, but the
creativity of it all, and then point it
at something else and be successful.
You've now done that with receipts on
both sides that are so extreme. Okay.
Anyway, I say all of that because now I
now that I feel like I have a better map
of how your mind actually works. Are are
you shifting gears? Like you put I've
heard you talk about like you put the
night vision goggles on and it's just
different. You're just there. But are is
that creative mind processing the world?
Like are you having moments where you
feel the either profoundity of war or
the absurdity of war? Or are you
narrating to yourself like what it means
to put so much trust in another person?
like what are the insights that you can
feed us back as somebody with your
ability to capture a story, tell a
story, paint a picture, like give me
some of that insight. I did not ever
think I would be doing this stuff.
When I
was in
Iraq, I did
not I was I was like uh only doing one
thing and that was trying to accomplish
the mission and keep my guys alive and
that was the only thing I thought about.
I I didn't think about any after the
military. I didn't have any concept of
after the military. I didn't think about
after the military. I only thought about
the SEAL teams. That's the only thing I
thought about. That's the only thing I
cared about and nothing else really
mattered to me.
And you know, it's funny. I
I if I if I knew the trajectory I was
going to be on or I guess I should say
an indicator of me not knowing the
trajectory of my life was that I have I
have almost no pictures of me in the
SEAL teams. Like I have almost no
pictures. M so instead of me saying oh
here I am in Iraq and here I am doing
this and here I am doing that or a
journal I wish I had a journal I don't
have a journal the closest thing I have
to a journal is from my last deployment
to Romani I have notebooks like
this that only and all they're filled
there's no human insight whatsoever in
those there is
only you know hey Make sure to make sure
to tell the guys to watch out for this.
Hey, this mission is going to go down
tomorrow night. We're supporting this
group. Like, it's only notes,
operational notes. I had no other
thoughts in my mind. I was only there to
to fight. And that was my
whole and and death was accepted as well
of
hey this is this is what this is the
this is we're ready. I'm I'm okay. I
don't need I'm I'm I might not come home
and that's fine. I get it. This is what
we're doing. This is what I'm doing.
Assessing the situation on the ground
from a creative perspective.
100%. Interacting with other
people in a creative way, 100%. Talking
to other people, 100%. Like I I I
actually will look back now and you know
when you go watch a movie where the
freaking the battalion commander stands
up and gives a speech and you're like,
"Hell yeah." You you you've seen movies
like that, right? Of course. or the the
the the high school football coach or
the whatever they give. I did that. Like
I really did that. I really got to like,
for lack of a better word, give speeches
to my guys. I never thought about the
fact that I was giving speeches. I never
that I never thought of them as
speeches. But now I look back and I say,
"Oh yeah, I remember when I said that. I
remember when I did that. I remember
what I was doing was I had a message
that I needed to convey to the to the
boys
and I had to be as articulate as I
could. I had to convey this message. It
can be hard to to make people understand
things. So, was there creativity in all
those aspects? Yes. Did I think about
capturing one iota of that in a journal
of any kind? No, I did not. I did not at
all. Uh, the only thing that I cared
about and the only thing that I thought
about was war and the SEAL teams and I
didn't care about anything
else.
And I don't even know if that's healthy.
It's probably not. But that I felt like
that was my one benefit I had of being
older when I went to war was I knew
every moment that I was there. I knew
that this was this was the apex of my
life. This was everything that I had
ever wanted to do. This was everything
that I ever dreamt of doing. And this is
we I am at the moment in time where I am
needed to do what I am supposed to do.
and and that's where I was. Do you think
you'll ever write about the war? I mean,
I I've written about it obviously in
extreme ownership, dichotomy of
leadership, leadership strategy and
tactics. I've written about components
about it, but
um as far
as going back and telling that story,
maybe at some point, maybe at some
point. But, you know, it's funny
because, you know, I whenever I tell
people I wrote a novel, you know, their
immediate question is almost like,
"Well, what what war is it about?" And
it's like, "No, it's not. It's about a
laundry mat." And they're always like,
"What?" I admittedly did not see that
coming. Yeah. Like, so I think I think,
you know, if we were to try and dissect
my my brain a little bit, you
know, the time that I was in the
military, I think I applied the
[Music]
creativary purposes and and just was
that's what I focused on. You know, I
went to school, I went to college while
I was in the military and I studied
English. And when I studied English in
school, the reason I studied English was
that I could write better concept of
operations, was that I could write
better evaluations for my guys. That's
why I did it. And it worked. Like I was
very good at that. And that's what I
used it for. When I retired, I did not
think for one second that I would write
a book. I did not think that at all.
There was a moment where that future is
just unknown and
I it didn't make sense to me. I never
thought to myself otherwise I'd have a
bunch of pictures, right? If I would
have had any iota or I would have kept a
journal. I would have kept a journal. I
would have kept a journal. Hey, on this
date we did this operation. Here's what
happened. Hey, we had casualties today.
Here's what thoughts are going through
my mind. You know, I
I was telling my wife and I was talking
to my daughter the other day and I have,
you know, one thing that's beautiful
about emails is, you know, they're
they're permanent and you can scan them
very quickly. And I was on Memorial Day,
I was going
back and I was seeing what I wrote my
wife after my friend and my brother Mark
Lee first seal killed in Iraq. What did
I write my wife on? He he died August
2nd, 2006. What did I write my wife on
August 2nd? On August 3rd, on August
4th, I I went and read those emails and
it's like, "Hey, checking in. Hope
school is going well." Not a
mention. Not a mention. What about
August? Because there's a time where
you're not allowed to say anything, but
then that time passes.
Nothing. So, so
compartmentalized and only focused on
one thing. It's like, "Yep, the family
got to make sure the family is doing
good to go. Got to make sure that the
team is good to go." Those two things do
not touch each other. They do not touch
each other. And and so that's just an a
little bit of
a snapshot into what I was thinking
about. Was I thinking about poetry?
Negative. Was I thinking about songs?
Negative. I was thinking about war. What
environment do you think outputs the
best leaders? Politics, corporations, or
the military? Politics. I I would say is
the one where I don't really think that
might be the best example. I don't think
politics produces good leaders because
especially the way the system is now.
When I went to officer candidate school,
when I went to officer candidate school,
you you have to polish your belt buckle.
Well, you actually had to polish the you
had to you had to scrub your belt buckle
with this chemical called Brasso. You
had to scrub your belt buckle until the
finish on the belt buckle was gone.
Whoa. So, they put if you if you got a
piece of a brass belt buckle, they put a
finish on it so that it doesn't
uh get contaminated every single day.
Well, when you go to OCS, they actually
make you polish that finish off of you
remove the finish. M and I remember just
thinking to myself, it's a slow
evolution where, you know, 30 years ago,
someone said, hey, make sure your belt
buckle doesn't have any, you know,
smudges on it. And then it's like, well,
make sure that you polish it. And then
it's we want you to polish this thing
until it no longer has the finish on it
that protects it and it just goes
totally astray, right? I think that's
what happens with with politicians. like
they go into politics, they got to
behave a certain way. You're like,
"Okay, well, you're you're gonna be a
politician now, Tom. Be more
professional." Okay. So, you're like,
"Got it." And then, so you adjust your
behavior a little bit. And then, well,
we want you to adjust it a little bit
more and a little bit more and a little
bit more and a little bit more. And
pretty soon, the person that you were is
gone. And now you're just this weird
uh articulation of a human being that
you that can move its mouth and say
words that it's being programmed with.
So I would say politicians probably not
the best place to formulate leaders. But
corporate world obviously I work with
all kinds of corporations. There's some
incredible leaders there. And then the
same thing with the military. Incredible
leaders in the military. That being
said, there's horrible leaders in the
military. There's horrible leaders in
the corporate world. So leadership is is
it gets formulated from a bunch of
different components. A lot of it is who
you are as a human being. Just who are
you as a human being and where are you
as a human being? Because depending on
where you are as a human being really
depends what kind of leader you're
going. When you say where, what do you
mean? What is your goal? What do you
care about? What do you value? Because
if what you care about is
you, that's going to be a problem. It's
going to be a problem in the military
for sure. It's going to be a problem in
the civilian sector as well. If your
number one concern Tom as a leader is
Tom and it's not the team and it's not
the people and it's not the mission, you
that things just aren't going to work
well. So, but if your number one concern
is taking care of your people, your
number one concern is executing the
mission, your number one concern is
making sure that you create something of
value for the world, that's going to be
a person that's going to turn out being
a better leader than someone that's
focused on themselves. So, and and by
the way, you can be you can be on the
surface like you know that if you look
out for yourself, you're not going to
get promoted because you'll look like
you're an egotistical maniac. And so,
you'll play the game and you can do that
for a little while, but usually those
that that core ego sleeps slips out and
it will be problematic. Do you have a
sense of what the political game is? So
if it's this constant adjustment that
makes somebody really sort of a
caricature of a human uh why does that
system optimize for that when I think
people I mean I would certainly say
politicians should be the people leading
the
nation that certainly I think the the
cover story that it has when people are
voting but it ends up not actually
outputting that thing. So what is the
essence of politics? Being able to
conform to the machine and be able to
execute what the machine wants. And is
that uh a game of compromise? Because
I'm watching what's going on right now
with like Trump and Elon are falling
apart or so that's how it's being
portrayed. But Elon does seem pretty
pissed about if I had to put words in
his mouth. Like I went and slept on the
floor and did all this stuff trying to
cut the budget and now uh you put out
this big beautiful bill that ups the
ceiling of the debt and like you just
betrayed everything that we stood for.
And so there's that friction of you have
a guy that realizes, oh, you actually
can't do this dance because when I look
at from the administration side, they're
like, bro, we've got to get something
passed. And so I get the ideology, but
the reality is that we have this
two-party system where people are just
battering each other. And so it's like
compromise, compromise, compromise to
get something to move forward and we all
sort of tell a story and turn a blind
eye to in this case a fiscal cliff that
we're driving towards just because we
have to get something that can be voted
on. I would say that's a good
assessment. It's a good assessment.
There's
there's the ideal and there's reality
and how those two how how you how you
sort of thread those two together. I I
think a
politician they're trying to do that and
I think it's a really difficult
situation that they're in and I don't
think many of them do it very well. Joo,
this has been incredible. Uh where can
people connect with you, follow along,
find the things you're doing? Um, I
guess jock fuel.com, originusa.com,
echelonfront.com, jocko.com and I'm on
social media, joollink. That's where I'm
at. I love it, brother. Thank you again
for being here. Absolutely incredible. I
appreciate every second of it. Good
seeing you, man. Boys and girls, if you
have not already, be sure to subscribe.
And until next time, my friends, be
legendary. Take care. Peace. If you like
this conversation, check out this
episode to learn more. Jeffrey Epstein's
story was never about sex. It was an
illusion. Like the dress some see as
blue and others see as gold.
Intelligence agencies exploit the same
trick. They shape what you notice and
distort what it means. Enter compromant.
The art of collecting