Kind: captions
Language: en
as somebody who founded arguably the
most disruptive Media company of this
generation as you look at what's going
on today what do you think is the most
important story that we should be paying
attention to for the first time ever
like we're a post truuth world and I
think Vice our whole thing
was we would go to
Afghanistan and we'd go oh there's a
whole another story going on that
nobody's talking about because news is
institutionalized they have like a guy
who stays in the hotel he has stringers
the stringers come to him he writes a
thing it goes in that goes into a
teleprompter and the host goes blah blah
blah blah blah and then when you go
there you're like yeah nobody's left the
hotel in three years and that we got
into that by mistake because we were
filming the only heavy metal band in
Baghdad as you do as you do and um we
were there coincidentally when Bush came
and said mission accomplished won and we
were in he was in the green zone we were
in the red zone and everyone's shooting
at each other and we're like H the war
isn't
over so we just started going places and
I I'd say 90% of the time when you went
somewhere the story would be completely
different than than what you were being
told
now there's 50 different versions of
every story on social media and that's a
and then B young people believe them
that's two and then there is a lack of
trust in the mainstream news media with
good reason I think and then there's you
know opad crap on one side and snide
comedy on the other and not a lot of
facts so it's a it's a terrible
situation but for guys like us it's a
great situation because we can go out
there and sort of try to find the people
that you know I was watching your
uh podcast this morning with Michael
sailor talking about Bitcoin and you're
like that's interesting and that's going
directly to the source and figuring
stuff out and so it's kind of good but
kind of bad I guess I was going to ask
does the truth matter or does the
interpretation of Truth
matter there in lies the rub I mean but
how do you think about it because you've
said uh multiple times that what you're
trying to do with Vice news presumably
and certainly your own show uh is figure
out why we don't have shared facts and
I'm assuming to try to in all of that
figure out what actually is true yes so
it matters enough to guide your
professional life but I think so I look
I'm a Centrist and I love the political
game and I love watching it unfold and
what's happening now is incredibly
interesting and look I
think 70% of it is bread and puppet or
bread and circus theater uh because we
want to be part of this Grand democracy
which we aren't we don't have a lot of
agency in a two-party system there's
two-party system they're always power
it's a republic it's not a de democracy
like if you want a democracy get four
five six 10 parties I mean it's the same
two parties
forever
so like what is it all for and I was
going to say you know I wanted to do a
show uh called let's go back and let's
go back and see what they said about
Trump all the things that Trump would do
during his first presidency let's go
back and see what they were saying about
Obama and he's going to take the guns
and he's going to do this and he's a
communist and he's a it's all [ __ ]
like nothing ever [ __ ] happens and so
now like there's some stuff happening
but you're like like there's it's always
Doom and Gloom from one side to the
other side and a lot goes on during
those four years so a lot of it is for
we are part of this Grand Democratic
experiment and Democracy in America and
the best country and D and it's like you
know the people are the great beast and
we're going to the circus to watch this
stuff and this is the circus it's the
it's the best and biggest reality show
that everybody in the world tunes into
and we have a new star of that reality
show and he knows how to Milk The Cow so
uh does the truth matter look I like
commonality of facts I like science I
like you know look we're going to run
into a wall uh
let's say climate wise and everyone's
going to go you know why didn't you tell
us or like you know what people are like
doing anything unless you have a gun to
your head and you know I've been doing
environmental programming since I
started in media and nobody gives a [ __ ]
and you can see it now now it's like
okay our house is just burn out they
just burnt you know you're having these
crazy storms and H everyone's like it's
the government it's the government it's
the [ __ ] world is like this is only
the beginning and it's going to get
worse and there is no common they that's
been
politicized right there will be another
pandemic and half the people won't get
vaccinated or what have you because it's
been politicized right there's like AI
is going to happen and upset AI is the
all human endeavor done by machines
that's going to if you look study your
Smith and
Ricardo that's going to have a lag of
people going
from uh I'm like I you you know oh the
wine makers now have to be coal miners
well the wine makers don't know how to
mine coal well there's a lag meaning
people die and so there's going to be a
huge cultural
lag until there's Universal living wage
or until there's something you know that
happens but the capitalist system is not
very forgiving to a huge shift
towards all human endeavor done by
somebody that isn't a human something
that isn't a human so look massive
shifts and if we can't point to a
commonality of facts and everything
becomes politicized then we're [ __ ]
and arguably we are next
question that's uh that is a very um I
think important take I think there's two
ways to look at the Shared facts problem
number one is uh if we don't share facts
and people are just going to argue and
almost certainly the people are framing
things not to get to a um universally
useful outcome they're arguing and
positioning things so that they can get
their way uh but the other is that the
world actually does work in a certain
way like physics are real and if you
understand the physics of money if you
understand the physics of climate then
you can actually navigate the world in
in a more useful way but I find that
there's a really fascinating tension and
it's very interesting to hear you use
almost a Verbatim quote that I said this
morning on the podcast that we'll be
releasing tomorrow which is that reality
is the greatest reality show ever and it
just everything that's happening is so
crazy that it becomes a question of okay
do we engage in
this big game of politics or culture or
whatever rapper you want to put on it
because it's entertaining and we just
it's it's too fascinating not to engage
with or is it that you can actually
improve the direction of all all of
human civilization if you can get closer
to what is actually true which of those
do you feel a bigger pull towards when
you when you think of how to spend your
professional time I think it's both I
think look it's like you know we we're
sitting at this this sort of thing but
like like if you look at Joe Rogan and
you're like okay Joe
Rogan sort of straddles both of those
things but became a sort of
political King maker in the last
election absolutely crazy what he says
ends up being so important not only with
Trump and but like and Elon and like you
know all of it and
so I think
that both of what you say is true so you
have the sort of people on the periphery
who are doing the reality show part of
it but to that you can get close enough
to actually getting in like like RFK
Junior and and Elon and all these people
were on the periphery and now they're
calling the shots and if you look what's
happening with Elon especially you're
like holy [ __ ] like it's kind of great
kind of crazy wild um and to go back to
like
politicized I
mean it brings into question a lot of
things which is um why do people believe
what they believe you know and then you
have to sort of and I look at
myself and you know like a lot of people
in America I'm sort of been moving with
my political spect
um and I'm like why you know did I
believe all that stuff and if you're
really
introspective I went to school in
Canada and I think here they done
studies in like 80% or whatever 90% are
leftists and like 20% are marxists
whatever in Canada like everyone was a
Marxist I was a Marxist when I left
school yeah yeah well you know I I was
again I was I studied it
so my actual paper my final paper was
about how both capitalism Smith and
Ricardo capitalism and marks and angles
communism were effectively the same
thing they were apolog as for the
Industrial Revolution and both wanted in
the synthesis synthesis of Communism it
was a sort of like very small government
that and the markets regulate themselves
and people regulate themselves and then
government just does sort of
infrastructural stuff and so
but yeah I when I when I was going to do
my graduate work I was sort of went with
a hegelian Hegel was
pre-marks and so uh very left and Canada
very politically correct but as a
backlash to how politically correct
Canada was vice started because it was
so stifling and there was so much
censorship we were punks and we're like
[ __ ] you we're going to be [ __ ]
different but still coming from a place
of hyper sort of political awareness
and then as you get older and you get
more in the political game you're like
holy [ __ ] can you believe this stuff and
I think that was a big eye opener but
getting close to the political machine
and being able to move the the needle
look that's a real thing and that's a
great question so I mean I think both
and if you look at Joe like he's a
perfect example yeah it's he's done a
phenomenal job of the way he talks and
engages with the world he finds humor
in The Madness of it all but he can so
quickly switch to but okay this is
really serious and we actually have to
talk about it and he talks to everybody
yeah which is big like you can't talk to
people on the right if you're on the
left and if you're on the left you can't
talk which I've learned yeah Community
coming after you yeah I think Vice was
sort of leftist I mean Vice was a big
thing there's all kinds of things but
like Vice news we tried to be Centrist
and I remember like we had a lot of
young people working for us and you'd be
in the edit suite and you'd be like you
you can't have the the Democrat come in
and be like a and they have the
Republican come in like music stings
like how they cut it like everything
yeah and we were always trying to shove
it towards the center but you know it
was perceived as being very left and
then when I left it got even more left
and woke and all this [ __ ] um and so
when I started doing Shane Smith ask
questions my whole thing is like I love
one of my favorite things we ever did is
I went to we went to a prison with Obama
it was the first time a sitting
president went to a prison prison reform
BL blah blah blah we wanted Emmy so he
gave me basically access to his
presidency last six months to do a to do
a doc and I was look I was going to do a
[ __ ] cream puff like I shouldn't say
those back to back but like a cream pie
like piece like cre this is getting
worse by the second year
Shane called Freudian Freudian slip
Barry I love you um no he gave me this
access to the White House and and I like
again I was just going to do like a nice
you know and
he all they would talk about was the
Republicans and Republic this is at the
peak of the Tea Party and Speaker
Boehner and so I I'm like well now you
brought it up so now I have to go talk
to all these guys so I went to hang with
speaker bner who's a lovely cat like
great guy and so I just was hanging out
with him and he was a great guy started
hanging out with Frank Lun he's a great
guy hanging out with all these people
and you realize oh like there's there's
this like speaker bner got fired from
his own party being Speaker of the House
for going to meet President Obama and
you're like oh that's your [ __ ] job
sorry can't swear no you can swear I can
swear what you
want sometimes we get deep platformed
for the salty language um that's your
job to go see him and so the Tea Party
sort of ousted him just for even going
so what does that mean it means that
there's no consensus Pol politics
anymore it means even if you go meet the
opposite side you can be kicked out just
by meeting them not by doing any deals
with them and that's where we are today
we're in a hyper galvanized into
activity or even worse we're going to go
back and undo what you did in during
your presidency or Andor house so we're
going to our our what we're going to do
is reverse everything that you you guys
did
and so we're we're in this by partisan
not bipartisan partisan partisan bipolar
there we go I got it partisan bipolar
world of near the twain meet like
they're over here they're over here and
during that presidency was that that was
when the Republicans said not one vote
so we're not going to give you one vote
on any of your legislation yeah that's
super
unhelpful correct so uh yeah uh as I
look at this stuff I because my content
used to focus primarily on um what I
always called empowerment so I'd worked
in the inner cities I had a thousand
employees that grew up like hard in the
inner cities and I realized oh some of
these guys are quite a bit smarter than
I am but their lives are going nowhere
because they have a set of ideas that's
just not useful in the real world yeah
and so I said look I'll come in early
I'll stay late I'll teach you everything
I know about entrepreneurship so you can
control your own life that ends up
becoming impact theory was me just
really trying to see if people could
take these ideas and run with them and
uh it was very distressing to see how
few people do once they hit a certain
age but the people that did it had a
similarly positive impact on their life
and the what I call the two centers ends
up being this incredible journey for
them to go on but you begin to realize
okay wait a second ideas matter they
matter a lot your frame of reference
matters it matters a lot depending on
how you engage with the world you can
actually get it to move in a direction
and then just The more I've been in it
the more I kept like getting closer and
closer to like uh the final line which
is politics and culture and as I got
there it became very much the community
was like the initial Community I don't
want to hear about this stuff I don't
want to talk about it everybody's tried
up to your point that if you're talking
to the wrong person then people just
feel betrayed they don't want to ask of
themselves this thing I believe when I
act in accordance with that belief does
it make my life better or worse they
don't even look at it just because it
feels so good to have a team and to feel
like okay the world's very complicated I
don't want to have to parse it all so
just am I blue or red team and then just
give me all the the download and then
I'll know this is how I'm supposed to
think about these different issues and
my thing the reason that like you I'm
always trying to push my own thinking
back to the center is it feels like the
most useful place from which to pick the
best ideas because if you tribe up now
you're no longer looking at an idea
based on its ability to take you where
you want to go it's just am I going to
look to my left and right and be cheered
on yeah it's an ideology exactly and uh
ideologies certainly lead to feeling
good about being on your team they lead
to having a simple answer to very
complex problems but they don't lead to
I know where I'm trying to go and this
thing is actually going to get me there
yeah now do you have like a when you
think about being a Centrist
organization looking at what's happening
in the world do you want that kind of
outcome where it's like hey maybe things
move slowly but they do move and so I
want to give people the information that
they need um or is it something
else um that's a great question I want
to go back to impact here for a second
because you just spurred something on in
me that's a great thing by the way going
to people and saying hey I'm going to
give you all the tools that I had and
whether or not they take it or not
because I was always I went from sort of
being you know a hustler in Montreal
just like trying to make a media company
work to all of a sudden you're in the
stratosphere where everyone's a
billionaire and everyone's got a boat
and everyone's got a plane and
you know there's like
this knock on effect of you made money
and now you're like a design genius
because you know your houses are nice
and you know you're you're you're a
style Guru because you
know all of a sudden you know about
clothes or all of a sudden you know
about travel or where the coolest
restaurants are and all these things and
like you you know is it because of the
money and you were in the right time the
right place with the right product now
because you have money it opens up your
brain and confidence and so you and you
become a sponge and you learn and you
learn and you learn and other people
aren't learning so you do this or were
you sort of predestined because of your
brain to do all this because you can
figure out the systems of modernity you
know better than anybody else that's a
great thing and someone should study
like what's the percentage of if
everyone's given the same tools because
obviously rich people have kids and
those kids a lot of the time don't do
well in fact the opposite so that's just
an very interesting thing we don't back
to go back to to your your direct
question again you're exactly right so
there it's an ideology I don't want to
be an ideologue I like to look at things
critically and say okay look you know
some people on the right have a great
idea like if you ever put a tax on
anything that tax is staying there
forever and and it's never going away
like we just need to tax it now for this
one Bridge we just need to you can go
back and say in 1789 they needed to do a
tax for wigs it's still in there right
so I'm like I'm not very like the more
tax you have the harder everything
becomes an economy and look the the
reason why this country is great is
because people like I'm an immigrant I
come here make money so but yet there
are some things like look you can't walk
around La we were coming here today it
was there was these like sort of hipster
Rich guys over by the chatau Marmont and
there was a dude naked just jacking off
on the street okay and you're like
you're like look the the
homelessness
situation especially in La is insane and
and look I don't know if that's because
people are insane or because of you know
you don't see that in like Denmark you
know like there's got to be a so so
there's there's points but the problem
is if you go too far to the right or too
far to the left to go back to I think
the left went way too far to the left
which is why now you have a huge move to
the right because the left kind of
[ __ ] up and so like I like to look at
both and say what's the best of both and
I think you bring this up a lot on your
podcast is like I want to be able to
pick you know the best person Andor the
best theory and or the best thing you
want a meritocracy I'm exactly that way
and I think if you become an ideologue
you're you're saying I'm going to take
50% of the world and say I'm not going
to look at that I think that's wrong um
so I think you know you should be
Switzerland you should be I I'm G to
take everything from all people yeah my
thing that hides in plain sight that
people seem to ignore for reasons I
really cannot grasp is that you can
certainly chart a different course in
your own life you can probably sway
culture more than you think certainly if
enough people are going in the same
direction but nobody not nobody but very
few people take the time to say I want
to end up but exactly that place and
they'll have goals but they'll be
hopelessly vague so I coach
entrepreneurs and I get that all the
time they say they know what they want
they'll give you an answer and it's
really vague they they don't want to be
poor anymore that honestly sometimes
it's that simple like I want to make
$500,000 this year rad doing what so
it's like they they don't even have the
specifics it's crazy we'll get back to
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advertisement and now let's get back to
to the show if you have what I call the
only belief that matters that if you put
time and energy into getting better at
something you will actually get better
then it's like I want to go there I'm
not good enough to get there yet but I
can get good enough and then you start
putting time and energy into that but to
answer your question about okay if
everybody had the same skills what would
end up happening I don't have the
studies in front of me but from what I
see coming out of the scientific
Community it's roughly 5050 so your
outcomes are 50% based on your brain
your genetics and then 50% is malleable
and it's going to be culture and it's
going to be all the things you do um and
the bad news is that you can really [ __ ]
somebody up by raising them poorly and
like the first three years is all you
need to just absolutely decimate them
really and the example I always use is
that the language centers of somebody's
brain will either develop or not develop
well based on the number of words that
they hear by the age of it's either
three or five and they looked at kids in
lwi income areas compared to people in
the middle class and it was people in
the middle class heard 5 million words
by the time they were let's say three uh
and people in lowincome areas heard
three million words by the time that
they're three and then the ratio is the
middle- inome kids heard 70% positive to
30% negative and for lower income kids
it was exactly reversed wow and then
when you take because they were trying
to answer the question like what is it
that happens that leads a kid who grew
up in the inner cities to effectively
have an accent in their native language
and that was the big thing their the
language centers of their brain do not
develop as much as somebody who just
hears whatever 40% more words volume of
words by the time they're three and
there are realities to be faced about
the way brain brain development happens
and so like you're able to make all
these crazy connections up to like age
11 and then it starts pruning and then
post 13 you're sort of on this downward
trajectory until at 25 your brain is
effectively done developing people are
going to argue the exact moment but it's
effectively done developing now it's
still plastic it can still change it can
go in any direction that you want but
most people don't because at that point
they've gotten all the early easy gains
they've set things like their vision of
themselves their vision of how the world
Works they don't realize that those are
decisions based on oh this thing
happened to me and this is what it means
and they could change that story but
they probably won't uh and then there
are actual developmental things that are
now baked in and I had a guy on the show
Gabor mate and I said Gabor you have two
options before you option number one a
kid is raised unbelievably well up to
the age of three and then after that is
just abused horribly until they're in
let's say their early 20s yeah versus
somebody who is just absolutely in a
terrible uh situation bad parenting
neglected abused whatever until they're
three but after three they're in a
loving relationship they get Highly
Educated which of those two has a better
chance of having a positive outcome and
he said it's the person that has the
good first three years even though
they're going to go through some brutal
stuff they will have had things locked
in to the way that their brain developed
that's going to carry with them forever
attachment Styles and things like that
is going to carry but if they have those
first three years are just brutal then
they're really GNA be in for a hard time
now look the the some of the stuff going
on in Charter Schools proves that you if
you catch somebody at say kindergarten
is you can still really change the
trajectory of their life in a positive
direction but yikes it there are just
hard trees to be faced that's really
interesting makes me feel kind of
good about being a yeah because yeah
just cu the first three years you're
like laser focused on the kid and you
know so you're like oh good I got those
three years and that's good cuz now I
have two teenagers they they definitely
don't want me to be laser focused on
them yes that is a that's a whole thing
also very predictable and that I think
that's one of the things that I am
obsessed with so going back to my
initial question I'd love to hear from
you the thing you think people should
really look at because for me when I
think about okay what's the thing that
matters most if you're really trying to
help people or you're trying to sway
culture to a direction where my
Northstar is human flourishing at scale
so that's great what do we do what do we
have to set up um I am a big comp of
some cultures are more effective at
leading to human flourishing and
therefore we should be adopting whatever
works to get people there um and in
trying to move people in that direction
I just come back to over and over and
over uh the way that money works and if
you make it impossible for people to get
economic progress boy oh boy are you
gonna have all kinds of problems yes
every time I come back to the States I'm
like there's a lot of countries I don't
know
I'm not don't pin me factually but I'll
say 85% of countries you don't get a
kick at the can like I'm like oh you
know I'm on my third kick at the can
like I you know made a lot and then lost
and make it and I was like you know if
you have access to Capital like you can
day trade and you can do stuff with
crypto and you can
and whenever I come back particularly
from you know southeast Asia Africa
Middle East and but Europe I mean if you
have the right name and the right accent
and didn't go to the right school you
don't get to kick at the can and it's
pretty wild like that you don't have any
ability to move that socioeconomic
ladder um and that's most of the world
so that's like when you you're right I
mean capitalism and Hyper capitalism are
the way that people who are smart Andor
dedic ated Andor you know focused Andor
you know who can figure out systems
whatever it is that's that's where it
happens if you have any other type of
fac like going back to the Copenhagen
copenhagen's lovely it's great it's a
great City everyone has clean sheets
beautiful Apartments everyone's riding
bikes and Rosy Cheeks but like what's
what's coming out of Copenhagen like you
know then you look at New York City
which is sort of dirty and F and you
know there's rats everywhere and there's
poor poverty right next to extreme
wealth but it's an atomic engine of
culture man so yeah it's do you put a
value judgment on those what do you mean
uh is one better than the other well I
think it's look coming from Canada it's
two different IDE so yes I was about to
say no but uh coming from Canada
Canada's really a cut off the tall trees
you know country culturally culturally
and um there's a joke uh there's an
American fisherman and a Canadian
fisherman they're standing on the border
and they have two buckets and and both
buckets there's lobsters and the
lobsters are coming over the edge of the
Canadian Fisherman's bucket the American
fisherman says the Canadian fisherman
hey you're going to lose your lobsters
there going over the Ed bucket and he
doesn't look back and he goes no they're
Canadian lobsters his friends will pull
them back in so
we one of the reasons why we left Canada
was because of that it's like really
like everyone just be a B minus and and
if you wanted to polish the turd and
become an A+ there was not a lot of
incentive and in fact there was
disincentive and if you were arrogant
and you said we're going to be the
biggest in the world or we're going to
be the best or we're going to do you you
were kind of like you know that Shane is
a bit of a brager you know and um
whereas when you came to New York it's
like the hardest City to get to but it's
also the hardest City to stay in and
also the hardest City to like like
everyone's having a hard time so they
have you have to be smart and tough and
amazing and have a story and to climb
that ladder is even harder so it's like
you're playing you know NFL Super Bowl
football every day in New York and then
you go to like any other country and
they're just tossing it around in the
backyard and you're like I can really do
this in my sleep and we noticed that
like when you're when you're baptized by
fire in New York and you go to Europe
Europe is a very weak market and and and
sort of five to 10 years behind and you
can get in there and really you know I
know we're going to get a lot of
comments from Europe and Canada on both
those statements but yeah it's it's
brutal but it's like a gladiator War
like it's like Conan on the wheel of
pain like he pushes P pain comes and he
becomes a pit fighter so it's like
Gladiator I mean
Like Gladiator he has to he fights as a
gladiator for whatever the [ __ ] it is
five
years of course he's going to be like
you're gonna fight Caesar I mean like
he's like because he's a gladiator now
like that became his special skill set
so if you're in New York you're learning
all these special skill sets that nobody
else is learning but is it hard yeah
it's hard but like at the end of it
you're like now I can go up against
anybody so right now feels like that
moment so we at least in America we um
had been regulating the life out of
everything things were moving in the
wrong direction uh people were feeling
like they couldn't even speak and
obviously we had with the election of
Donald Trump a huge sort of release from
that um pent up energy and what do you
think about that when you look at how
fast they're moving the move fast break
things the make big cuts we can always
add it back later are you energized by
that or do you think oo uh jent we got
to slow down a little
here I mean I think it's hard not to be
energized I
think um like I said the sort of
American political system was sort of
galvanized into
inactivity and because of the non sort
of you know working
together you know polarization it became
just unbearable and unbearable
politically unbearable for
media um you know everything became
propaganda like
like the right has propaganda the left
has propaganda the left doesn't know
that it's propaganda is propaganda you
know and I think that that came out
which is good I think that's a good
thing I think doing stuff is good I
think um look there was a lot of
[ __ ] you know out there in the world
and now at least if you're moving to one
side you can say is it right or is it
wrong and by the way the Democrats will
have their you know their time to to
Chuck
Spears um but if it works boy oh boy if
it works you know I remember when Obama
got in they were doing demographics and
they're like okay because of gen Z and
Millennials just like the Baby Boomers
were the largest cohort and now it's
going to be Millennials and so there
might never be a Republican president
again because it's just the the young
people vote and now you're
like I mean is there going to be a
Democrat like they have done such a
terrible job of building their bench and
coming up with hard-hitting political
slogans and you know cultural Zeitgeist
moments and Joe Rogan moments and
they've just I mean they just did a
terrible job
and To the victor go the spoils also I
think look I think a lot of people get
to go back to the center the nixonian
great Center the the silent majority um
a lot of people were pissed like a lot
of people were just sitting there going
come on dude what is this now why is
this now everywhere why has this become
what everybody's talking about this
thing like we have bigger fish to fry
here and so I think that there is kind
of a release of people going okay let's
focus on these big things that matter
like I I was listening to you talk about
this but um the sort of unbel so go back
to taxation but the unbelievable
waste that in the Pentagon like you know
they're finding out stuff so I've been
reporting
on you know Iraq and Iran and
Afghanistan for you know I've been going
to Afghanistan for 20 years and I used
to get all these Scoops and be in
Afghanistan and and they' be like where
do you get your stories about all the
waste and all and I was like siger the
American appointed Congressional
appointed Secretary General for the
investigation of Afghanistan the
American government knows it's happening
they know that trillions of dollars are
going out the window W and that's your
money and so for me like look that's
America should be frustrated like the
Pentagon just
spending nearly a trillion dollars a
year with no audits I mean that's crazy
and and having Elon go there and say hey
we should be able to do have an audit I
mean I saw a thing that John Stewart did
and he and the the head of the dod was
was like giving him [ __ ] for like saying
that you know that they should do an
audit and then he just did this thing
where he was like okay I'm not a you
know a specialist but I'm a human being
who's on the earth and you get a
trillion dollars and can't tell me where
any of that money
goes no so I think there's a lot of
common sense that people are waking up
and going thank God why do you think
though because I would read that as at a
minimum political figures and media
figures on the left are are screaming
bloody murder trying to get every uh
judicial Interruption that they can get
uh is that corruption come home to roost
is what is that I'll ask you I don't
know I mean the usaid stuff is
interesting because you don't know
what's true I mean why is political
getting USA ID money I don't know I like
political but like that's crazy like
were they
buying stories I mean I don't know like
that's I'd like to know I mean that's
interesting you know were there slush
funds for money coming back I don't know
but it looks interesting I mean and if
that's the amount of corruption that's
going on in US Aid which is
comparatively small can you
imagine like the Pentagon which is I
mean 80% of our budget not 70% of our
budget I mean it's lots of money
and by the way they can't and it's so
big that they they they say they can't
audit it and you're like why I mean
that's our money so I think that's good
I think there has to be some sanity uh I
yeah I don't understand the
narrative like what soap box you're
going to stand on because if you're
going to stand on no we don't want the
Pentagon to be audited that's a hill
you're going to die on uh politically
and you should die on it and um look
rooting out corruption and waste in
government if you're going to say no we
shouldn't be doing
that then you should look at your your
electorate should look at you should
tell that to your your voters yeah
definitely alarm Bells going off all
right so the new show is Shane Smith has
questions how do you decide what
question you're going to pursue because
when you go down a rabbit hole like you
go pretty far so it's going to be a
pretty big time investment for you yeah
how do you
pick that's a great question too you
should do this for a living
um the idea was uh during the last
election social media which I'm
fascinated by and has become media
uh social media was sort of informing
especially the Republican side of like
questions and policy and narrative like
immigration for example was big one
and so I'm like
nobody's reporting on it like reporting
on the social media like so no one's
looking at it like an investigative
journalist and saying okay where's this
coming from like immigration was the big
one like on this side you had literal
like Gates opening and people flooding
across the gates and I said this on
Rogan and by the way I still
get like thousands thousands to comeing
there was no gate that was open and
people running through like that was you
know 2 miles before 2 miles after the
Border whatever
there were people coming and giving
themselves up and then they get released
into America which is open border versus
being sa back to Mexico which they're
doing now and so you get into it but the
the Republicans had done such a great
job of saying open borders and you know
the criminals and all that stuff and
keep hammering and hammering and
hammering and the Democratic response is
well it's kind of nuanced and sort of
like 80% go back to facts 80% of the
people are showing up for the
adjudication and the Republicans are
saying 90% never show up
and it was illegal immigration versus
legal immigration and da and when you
get into it it's this insanely complex
thing but the Republicans had sort of
boiled it down to something they could
Hammer that people believed in their
bones even if it wasn't true they still
believed it to go back to doesn't matter
if it's true um and the Democrats
couldn't come up with a response and
it's one of the big reasons they lost
the
election and none of it was true and so
we parts of it were true on both sides
like you're going to get more DMS yeah
well parts of it were true but like open
borders is not what people think now
illegal immigration versus legal we
don't have any legal immigration it's
like 85,000 people a year or something
it's nothing so you have to increase
legal immigration and decrease illegal
immigration it's very complicated and
very nuanced and whatever but we don't
have Gates where just PE you the gate
opens and people run through there's no
gate right and so
that's when I started saying okay let's
talk to people because there's no fact
so let's go talk to the Border guards
let's go talk to the homeland security
let's go talk to the sheriffs who are
reporting that you know people from
Sagal are coming in like Straight Out of
Africa who were paid by the UN literally
with un credit cards and you're like
okay let's just go ask questions because
these stories are crazy and so what
happened was basically what you think
would happen which is half the stories
were there's a gate they're let them
through and then the other half were
like there's no gate and what happened
was uh we started releasing them into
America versus releasing them to uh
Mexico because Mexico Supreme Court said
it's unconstitutional for us to release
other people from other countries into
Mexico and now Trump came in and said
well either you take them
or tariff tariff B shff shff apparently
the most beautiful word in the English
language up until now we'll see yeah
it's uh so okay you see something that
people there it is a consequential issue
yeah but people do not yet understand
what's really going on yeah so we do a
deep dive take immigration do did you
walk away from that being like okay I
now have an understanding enough that I
can like if I were asked I could at
least give an opinion on what I think
should be done or is it like hey I make
the facts available to the world and
what they do is what they do I mean
yes and no I think you know I went on
Rogan and and I was halfway through
shooting it and I knew sort of that
there weren't Gates and stuff because
I've been reporting on the border for 20
years but I wasn't sort of fully you
know up to speed as I am now it's going
to be an ongoing story so you know ice
is going to become a huge thing who goes
who stays it's going to be a huge thing
uh it's that's going to become a very
nuan story and interesting because it's
it's not going to be operation wet back
I.E you know back in Eisenhower just
like everybody goes you know
it's and so that's going to be an
interesting space to watch
um there needs to be comprehensive
immigration reform uh what's interesting
is if you look at it you know the
immigration God was Reagan ironically
and and the the Democrats were
anti-immigration because they were the
party of the unions bounces back for so
much it's crazy and so now I think there
needs to be bipartisan like you have to
there has to be legal immigration I mean
if you look at Japan you look at all the
they're offering you know all kinds of
incentives as our Europe you know to
people to come in because we need people
and we're not replacing fast enough and
we need you know people to come and and
be capitalists who want to work and make
money and live the American dream that's
America That's the basis of America but
it has to be legal I'm a legal immigrant
like and and what what happened was
everyone was applying for Asylum and
everyone doesn't deserve Asylum you can
say I want to come
and have like make money economically
and there should be something for that
um but you know everyone was saying yeah
I'm going to be beaten or killed or
whatever in my country which you know a
lot of the time wasn't true so there has
to be sort of comprehensive reform legal
immigration the Border can't be a
question mark even if it's not true it
can't be a question mark you can't just
have it dividing the American people
50/50 so it has to be controlled and I
think both sides realize that like it
has to be controlled and that's just
going to be going forward that has to
happen and on either side and I mean
you're going to be hardpressed even as a
Democrat to say no just let it go man
they really tried for four years that
was certainly the effective design well
so let's argue that point so when I look
at a complex thing like the Border I say
to myself uh the result of a system is
the effective design of that system it
may not be what they set out to do right
but it is the effective design and I
think the reason people think of it as
an open border though I get the um
nuanced linguistical reality of ah there
there would first have to be like a hard
thing for it to be open um but what what
I think people are emotionally trying to
convey is there are a lot of people
coming across the border one way or the
other they're no longer being shoved
away they're being allowed in whatever
way you want to talk about it uh and
they feel some kind of way about that
now my thing is you've got to go back
and ask the bigger question which is why
do they feel some kind of way about this
thing uh because I think that the the
picture actually gets far more
complicated but it really does have to
be simplified into a thing that people
can understand so a phrase I never
thought I'd be saying a lot but I find
myself saying all the time now is the da
that can be named is not the Eternal da
so it's from a book called the daing uh
written 2,300 years ago whatever uh and
what he was getting at the Dow means the
way so translates as the path that can
be explained is not the actual path
right and the second you put words to it
it's no longer
actually literally true but if it's the
thing thing that allows people to get
the gist and to sort of understand where
this goes then it's like you can begin
to unwind all of this stuff because man
my thing is all right I want to look out
at the future of America and I want to
see something good for the people okay
now we have to Define what good is human
flourishing we have to Define what that
is um I'll round everything to the
ability to uh make progress towards an
honorable goal just to like keep it as
simple again as simple as possible um
but now you get into okay people feel
some kind of way because they they can't
make economic progress and they don't
understand why and so oh I can't my
parents in their 20s had access to way
more house than I can get uh you know
they it cost them like a match stick and
a piece of chewing gum to get a house
and then over the next easy to get a
mortgage exactly so they're just like uh
what's happening oh what's happening is
people are flooding over the Border okay
problem and so going back to the initial
debate of is this what's really
happening or not um my thing is the
effective design of the border right now
is that a lot of people are coming over
the Border in a way that's very
noticeable in that um you could send and
many social influencers were podcasters
whatever going down to the Darian Gap
seeing that it's happening reporting on
it showing what was going on and then
conspiracies then run wild and so now
it's like well hold on with the thing I
can see with my own and capture on my
own camera I can see that many people
are entering the country and so if and I
think this is exactly what happened if
the Democrats or anybody else tries to
get people on a technicality to not
believe their Lying Eyes then it's like
you just start hemorrhaging credibility
they failed yeah the the Democrats in
the last election Republicans are saying
the borders chaos and it's bad and there
are criminals coming there are lots of
drugs coming there are things happening
people come from all over the
world and Democrats didn't have response
and one of the major reasons they lost
the election there's many but that's one
of them because they didn't have and you
you hit the nail on the head which it
doesn't matter to go back to our because
we're so good at this we're going to go
back to the original um thing is is it
doesn't matter what the truth is but the
perception is the reality and you're
exactly right in that look economically
I'm not where I want to be there's a lot
of reasons for that thing immigration
can be blamed on a lot of those things
now we always I mean it's the easiest
political tool it's been done since
there's been politics well it's not us
it's them um but there are problems and
and you're saying look there's problems
and my tribe is saying that my problems
are caused by those people which some of
them are and some of them aren't but
some of them are and so you have to
address that and you can't address it
with sort of Namby pambi wishy-washy
well it's kind of so a lot of them do
come to adjudication and we give them a
phone and they come and maybe they get
some money but maybe they don't and
you're like okay dude like you can't do
that like you have to hammer it and by
the way you have to solve the problem so
that's what you get paid to do so you
have have to at least try to solve it or
at least say that you're going to solve
it and I mean Ironically in the last
year before the election they shut down
all like the he had executive orders
Biden to to shut down everything and all
of the way St and Sh were empty and they
started saying everyone else is and but
they couldn't even get that you know
message out there they just failed
miserably at that at that and now so you
have to have comprehensive reform and
you have to control the border which
probably means ironically building some
sort of wall that people can't get
through or around yep yeah as you look
at the future of America somebody you've
traveled all over and I've heard you say
like when you travel you really get a
sense of what America is yeah uh when
you look at the future of America what
do you see where are we going I think
we've lost Africa to China whoa well I
mean I don't think I know you can talk
Ian Bremer about that but I spent a lot
of time in Africa and it's all Chinese I
think America is number one China's
number two that will change at some
point I don't know when to China number
one America number two talking
economically or International influence
sure all of the because if you look at
when America became the hegemonic power
it was post World War II we had just a
bigger Market we were like 4X the market
of of of UK which up until then was
onethird of the world's land mass and it
was just the economic Powerhouse but we
just had a bigger domestic Market we had
manufacturing we had you know population
we had space right and so just
mathematically England could not compete
and also we had modernity we had the new
factories and they had Manchester and
Liverpool and we had like you know
Detroit we can see where this is going
China now has obviously whatever it is a
3X domestic Market to us they have the
manufacturing they have Bo Britain built
the rule which is you get the stuff you
get the trees from Canada you get the
cotton from India you bring it to
England you man and then you sell it to
everybody right so you get manufacturing
and you get the sale of all this
manufactured goods then America really
did a great job of exporting America I
mean we were probably the best at it and
then now China is going from an internal
you know everything is about China to
now external so they need the the raw
materials and so they went to Africa for
example not just Africa they're going to
the world but and saying okay if you're
a
dictator you know we don't give a [ __ ]
about human rights like America is going
to at least you know make you pay and by
the way here's a lot of Technology
facial recognition technology all kinds
of stuff to keep your people in line and
by the way you want to build a like a a
super Stadium to celebrate yourself
named after you fine instead of a
railway fine we'll build you t