Kind: captions
Language: en
Arthur Hayes welcome back thanks for
having me glad to be here dude always a
pleasure especially at this point in the
cycle I think today's episode is going
to be a lot of fun and I want to start
with why are you predicting that the
Trump presidency could potentially print
up to 10 trillion dollars possibly
taking Bitcoin as high as a
million so I think it goes back to very
simply and I don't really think this is
a trump thing if Harris had won her team
would have done something similar maybe
it would have looked a bit different but
the effect would have been the same at
the end of the day Trump campaigned on a
progrowth policy uh he wants to bring
back industry to America he wants to
reinvigorate the
military and none of this can happen if
the majority of you know Goods produced
in America or
intermediate supplies are coming from
China not to say there's anything wrong
with China it's just that the entire
American industrial base depends on
stuff coming out of China whether that's
refined reare Earths whether that's you
know you know supply parts or whether
that's finished products in in of
themselves and so you've seen sort of a
decline in American industry starting in
1971 when Nixon took the US off of gold
standard sort of went to hyperdrive in
1994 when China devalued the Yuan and
started a very concered meralis trade
policy and then 2000 was the Cuda gra
when the US allowed China to join the
World Trade Organization and gave them
essentially tari free access to the
largest consumer Market in the world and
China to their credit was very um
diligent and built up an industrial base
that at the present moment has the
highest quality Goods at the lowest
price and we've seen that in the
automotive industry I saw a chart the
other day it was um percentage of China
Chinese cars in the global sold glob
I think about 20 years ago was 1% today
it's
40% if you go and I live in Asia and so
you you go around the major cities you
see the byd cars they're excellent
they're beautiful they run well and
they're cheap and so even if you have a
massive tariff on a Chinese automobile
it's still the best price car at that
price point for that particular amount
of quality and so the they're they're
the country to beat and so Trump is
campaigned on we want America to have
the type of manufacturing jobs that
probably people on this program or their
parents or grandparents had in sort of
like 1950s to you know early 1980s sort
of
thing okay so why does that lead though
to the need to do 10 trillion is that he
is he going to do things like the chips
act where he's going to specifically pay
companies to build manufacturing here in
the US via tax breaks and things like
that yeah so essentially us is going to
copy the Chinese model which is uh State
sanction either cheap credit through the
banking system or tax credits or direct
subsidies so Trump needs to make it
economically feasible for an American a
European or even a Chinese manufacturer
to say okay instead of building my
Factory in China Vietnam Mexico whatever
I can build it here in America and this
good is going to be price competitive
with anything globally because I'm
getting these massive government tax
breaks or subsidies or I'm getting
extremely cheap credit and so I wrote an
essay about this and I went through the
how the money moves for the banking
system to basically show that what Trump
was going to do is allow the US
commercial Banks to issue credit which
is essentially creates money and they'll
do this because it's profitable because
companies have the simplicit government
back stop of subsidies tax breaks even
tariff protection so it's exactly the
same thing that Japan and China did to
elevate their economies post World War
II and so if you take a look at the
amount of money that is needed just to
reduce sort of the American debt to GDP
down I I think I forecast something 7 or
80% from the 130 that is today I
estimated it could be in the magnitude
of 10 trillion obviously I don't know
the exact number but that's the
direction of travel if you think about
the amount of implicit credit that needs
to be created that need to be given to
American or American you know owned
factories in America to do the things
that Trump wants them to do which is
make Goods in America decouple the
supply Chains From
China all right given that they'll be
using the money theoretically on
productive things like manufacturing
infrastructure here in the US do you
still think that it's going to have the
kind of inflationary impact that a
million dollar Bitcoin would
predict absolutely because at the end of
the day the first amount of money that
goes into doing these sorts of things is
used productively and then it gets out
of hand because a company oh I have I'm
the only one who can get cheap credit
I've done all the things I can do to
bring all the production that makes
sense economically onore in America but
because I have this special I don't know
credit arrangement with the US
government and its banking system I'm
going to start going into the financial
sphere so whether it's property or it's
trading stocks or stock BuyBacks and so
the credit is always misallocated you
could take a look at China as a poster
child you know the credit was absorbed
in a profitable way you know probably
from the 1990s up until you know mid
2010s but then that was the development
model they didn't know how to change
from something else the credit kept
coming the banks kept giving you know
state owned companies and those were in
the in the U approved Industries credit
and what did they do they bought
Apartments they became you know real
estate developers they were punting
stock in the stock market um and doing
all these sorts of things buying trophy
Assets in the United States and Europe
wineries like you know large buildings
all these sorts of things these
companies had no business doing that but
they had the cheapest Credit in the
world and therefore they were going to
use it and their investors expected them
to use it and the same thing will happen
in the US the first amount of credit
will be used productively and then it'll
be misallocated I like to think that
100K Bitcoin is the demarcation point of
where any naysay ER it's just dead like
that conversation is over you've got
your straggler and Peter Schiff who's
just not going to let it go uh but it it
really seems like that argument just
doesn't make sense anymore with the
level of institutional adoption that we
have uh the height of the the amount um
so for it to get to a million dollars
where is the the capital flowing is it
purely from people that are aware that
inflation is happening or is this a
continued cultural momentum of adopting
a new asset class so the first thing
people need to understand is that the
the price on the screen is the marginal
price of the last trade it's not every
trade that's happened and so it's the
the simple example is how do you become
a trillionaire well you create some
fictitious company with a trillion
shares and then you sell one of them to
your friend for a dollar now you're a
trillionaire right the marginal price is
a dollar on trillion shares therefore
you're a trillionaire so I'm not saying
that there needs to be you know a
million dollars traded every day at that
bitcoin price I can see $1 to trade at a
million dollars and that's a million
dollar Bitcoin and that informs our
psychological perspective and what we
think Bitcoin is worth so with that in
mind what I'm talking about is the
marginal flows into Bitcoin well the
supply of Bitcoin is fixed we know 21
million will ever be produced however as
you have people like Black Rock Michael
sailor at micro strategy long time
holders like myself and others people
who are just getting into the the game
now and you know believe in a future
path of Bitcoin over the next 5 10 15 20
30 years are they going to sell why
would you sell Bitcoin for fiat currency
if you implicitly believe that the US
government and every other major
government is going to increase the
amount of that fiat currency at Infinium
that's the reason why you got into
Bitcoin so as the price Rises there's
less people who want to sell it and if
we have this institutional adoption
through the ET f s and other sort of
corporate uh Finance
Vehicles those are
sticky uh forms of holding which take
Supply out of the market which means
it's very easy to have a very
exponential rise in the marginal price
of Bitcoin the last traded price of
Bitcoin so I think that's one facet of
just how a micr structure of a market
works when you have a fixed Supply and a
holding base that doesn't want to sell
it against an asset that can be
infinitely debased and then the other
side you have the United States trying
to Res resore industry issuing credit
you have China has a property bust and
they want to protect their industry and
they're starting down the path of
quantitative easing they just recently
announced that they're okay with
allowing their currency to
depreciate because they believe it's
going to help them in their fight
against the the new Trump 2.0 tariffs
you have the European Union Statesmen
like Mario dragi and Emanuel macron open
ly saying that we need to print more
money to revitalize the European
industrial base and you have Japan which
continues to run the easiest monetary
policy of any major developed Nation so
if you take a look at the entire world
in terms of the largest four countries
in economic blocks they all are printing
money for various different reasons
that's only going to continue it's
accelerating in fact and so we have a
supply diminishing supply of freely
traded Bitcoin with an expanding supply
of fiat currency looking for a home and
if we believe that more people are
changing their mindset to say okay
crypto it's survive 15 years it's going
to be here for another 15 20 100 years
whatever I feel okay thinking that this
is going to be a store value I can use
it to pay for things when I need
therefore I'm going to take two three
four five 10% of my retirement income or
savings and now start buying this asset
and so all these things come together
and that's what creates a marginal price
of a million dollars per Bitcoin how
fast do you think we get
there I I don't know three three to five
years now uh you had called in one of
our earlier conversations you had called
100K Bitcoin which at the time I
remember seemed very aggressive do you
feel like you were pretty bang on with
the timing to get to 100K yeah roughly
you know December is we're here it's 100
104,000 or whatever it is we'll see what
it ends the end of the end of the year
when people do their sort of tax
optimization sort of things but I think
you know out of the many predictions
that have gotten wrong I got this one
right well yeah I mean look I don't
think anybody's going to get them all
right but directionally this one seems
like you've had your eye on it for a
while uh so when I talk to Michael
sailor he really looks at Bitcoin as
like a physical law of nature certainty
that money wants to go from high entropy
where it can be inflated there's all
kinds of chaos happening to
effectively the price I don't know if
he'd use that word but certainly uses
entropy and that it just naturally wants
to go to a low energy state where
there's um less manipulation of the
currency where it's it's going to be
more static from a buying power
perspective um do you see that same
inevitability do you look at this as a
physics problem or is this the inflation
cultural problem from your
perspective well there's a I think the
econom economist who may it's a Gram's
law um you spend back bad money you say
you hoard good money right so what's the
bad money the bad money is fiat currency
US dollar euro Yen Chinese Yuan what's
the good money
Bitcoin gold to some extent and so what
are people doing they're spending the
Fiat they're saving they're hoarding the
Bitcoin the gold right so I think that's
called gresham's law could be mistaken
on that so yeah you could put in a
physics term you can put it in sort of
an um economics term you can take a look
what happened in sort of like why are uh
Germany during their hyperinflation
during the 1930s in terms of people got
their their their marks they spent them
as quickly as possible but they were
also hoarding gold um because they knew
that was a real that was a real money uh
at that time so we're seeing the similar
sort of thing just starting today and
yeah sailor can put it in sort of a
physics terms but I think in sort of a a
social cultural norm we've seen this
before every time any major civilization
has failed and they always put money
they always debase the currency whether
you're in a gold standard or not it's
the same thing over and over again if
you read enough history it looks the
same it feels the
same the reason I delineate that is if
this is a physics question then sailor's
idea of getting because he puts the base
case over the next 21 years that
bitcoin's going to hit 13 million I
don't know how you feel about that
number but for him it's you can create
inputs and outputs and see how rapidly
the money is going to go from sort of
that bad state of Fiat into the more um
sound
physics money of Bitcoin uh so he
likened it to a waterfall and it's like
once the water starts pouring over the
edge you know as long as the water line
is above uh the channel for the
waterfall it is going to drain out back
to equilibrium it is a matter of physics
for him whereas if it's cultural then we
are still open to what um I Heard Ral
Paul referred to as the path of most
pain because this is the the thing that
scares me when I look at this sailor is
it's ballsy man don't get me wrong and
I'm as inspired as anybody else seeing
what he's done uh but nothing seems
guaranteed in the future and so to treat
it like a physical certainty I don't
know man I just I don't have the coones
I
guess I I mean I think you have to take
sailor with a pinch of salt and
understand where his position that he's
coming from he is essentially issuing
dollar denominated bonds and you know I
guess infinite Supply if he can and and
buying Bitcoin and every three to five
years he needs to roll over a certain
portion of his debt and if his stock
price is below the conversion price of
his convertible bonds he might have an
issue so yes he wants the market to
believe it's a physical certainty
because then you're not going to
question the ridiculous price that
you're paying for his stock um I more in
sort of the the cultural phenomenon sort
of Camp we're humans we're going to over
in the short term we're going to say oh
wow you know bitcoin's a million 100
million whatever the number is this is a
physical certainty this is the last
cycle ever you know you hear those sorts
of things on on the internet but the at
the end of the day we'll get ahead of
ourselves we'll we'll forecast some
crazy dystopian scenario of some crazy
hyperinflation and then if you start to
underperform the craziness
then the price of Bitcoin looks a little
bit High maybe it comes down a bit and
so I think that um markets go up markets
go down we as humans were over
optimistic and over pessimistic we're
not at that stage yet but I definitely
could see at a point of the cycle where
there we believe that there is no way
that fiat currency could ever fix any of
these problems therefore Bitcoin is
going to Infinity you'll hear people
saying this the last cycle and all this
kind of nonsense and then the price will
dump 90%
so I am more in the sort of cyclical
nature of of markets that's the physical
certainty in my respect based on human
nature yeah I uh I think the safer bet
is definitely on the human nature side
but I mean look shout out to sailor
obviously at at this moment in time he
looks phenomenal it's unbelievable what
he's done so I'll use my words I I have
a feeling he wouldn't love this
description but the way that I look at
what he's done with a micro strategy
stock to what you were saying is he's
basically taking taken a normal stock
with a treasury in Bitcoin layered a
casino on top of it so that people can
come in and play whatever Risk game they
want to play if they want the ultra High
Vol he's got stuff on Leverage and so
the the volatility there is just
absolutely Whiplash Manic and so for
people that want that extreme volatility
they can be in there but he's also got
things where he stripped out a lot of
The Upside but also a lot of the
downside and people can get into that
and so it's I mean that move alone
almost regardless of what happens to
Bitcoin in the long run the genius of
being the first Bitcoin treasury mover
layering that equities component on top
of it which is what I refer to as the
the casino uh brilliant absolutely
brilliant yeah absolutely I think from a
as somebody who loves you know Finance
what he's done in sort of a corporate
finance situation with his convertible
debt how he's termed it out how he used
his access to the you know corporate
debt markets in you know the United
States to be able to issue
0% uh coupon convertible debt is a
genius move uh he needs volatility
that's what you're trading so go up go
down Bitcoin needs to move if Bitcoin
stops moving a lot then the micro
strategy trade might get into a bit of
trouble but again I wouldn't worry about
that now that's three to five years sort
of down the road situation right now
it's it's the bull market so you know
when the uh When the Music's playing you
got to dance no doubt all right talk to
me about the dance so high volatility
this was something that I didn't really
uh appreciate nearly enough volatility
seemed bad I like that the government
was stripping volatility out of
everything but the more that I listen to
you the more I realize that volatility
is the game uh that if you're trading
that volatility is the light around
which all the moths gather explain
volatility to us why is it good so at
the end of the day what is life life is
risk right every moment that we exist in
this universe you know I wouldn't go so
far to say this but some people say the
universe is trying to kill you right you
enter this world you we all lose man
whether it's trying or not it gets us it
gets us in the end right and
so at the end of the day we're trying to
make these calculations all the time
about how do I structure my life so that
I can survive longer in this universe
and so at the end of the day I'm I want
to have a strip of bets that where the
upside when I'm right is you know
greater than what I pay to take that bet
intrinsically so our life is a strip of
options and so the more volatile the
situation the more valuable the option
but the game name of the game is how do
I pay the least amount of Premium as
possible in life so that I make
decisions where my you know getting it
right pays me more and sort of you know
feel good things versus what it cost me
to to take that bet so we live in a
volatile Universe volatility is our
friend suppressing volatility is not
natural and so government says hey I
through my ability to have you know
legalized violence and kill people
because they don't follow my rules I'm
going to protect you and so let me
smooth out that life curve for you do
what I say is is is essentially the name
of the game for for any type of
government and there is some benefit to
that but Tak it to the extreme which is
what you know central banks have done
over the past you know 50 years or
whatever it is then you start to get
into this unnatural state where the
volatility is so low relative to what
the natural just es and flows of life in
this universe are and and then things
just blow up right and so you think
you're safe and then you get a 2008
housing crisis or you get you know the
European crisis in
2011 or you get the regional banking
crisis in the US in
2023 and these are all sympatic of
government saying we're just going to
print a bunch of money and suppress
volatility but volatility is natural we
want volatility we want to construct a
situation where we have volatile upside
outcomes with capped downside and that's
really the goal and so that's what you
know Bitcoin and crypto really
represents is there's this outcome where
all the Fiat money in the world needs to
come into Bitcoin obviously that's not
going to happen but you can think of
that as sort of the extreme example and
your cost is the price that you pay
today for Bitcoin so some people paid a
dollar for Bitcoin back in you know 2010
and if they held on now it's worth
104,000 right but the most I could ever
lose was a dollar and so why wouldn't
you take that bet you you know how much
you're going to lose it's the amount of
fiat currency that you sold to buy
Bitcoin and so you can sort of self-
select your risk profile based on your
own situation but there's always an
amount of money that you can really to
lose to earn the 10,000 100,000 million
dollar X return on something like
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product found plus where people go wrong
is when they hear volatility they think
it's a one shot as in Oh either this
goes to zero or it goes up to 104,000
but that's not the volatility that
Traders seek the volatility Traders seek
is I want highall in a day I want it to
Whiplash up and down up and down up and
down up and down rapidly and that way
here's how High read volatility I want
that rapid whip saw up and down because
I'm smarter than the [ __ ] that Panic
sold when it went down and so I know I'm
going to buy low and sell High and the
reality is that um most people are the
buy high and sell low guy so given that
hard fact of life are people foolish to
like the high
volatility well people are foolish to
like the high volatility and have a high
frequency of trading so what you
described is somebody who was actively
trading in a very volatile situation
I'll make an there this is a very simple
example it's called volatility drift
this is why you should never ever ever
buy any leveraged ETF they're terrible
products I should know I've structured
many of them so you essentially if I
take something that's 100 start a
nominal price of 100 and it goes down
10% goes down to 90 and then I go up 10%
I go up to 90 99 so I've on an
arithmetic basis gone down 10% gone up
10% but I'm down $1 right that's
volatility drift and so when you're day
trading in and out in and out and out or
using these products that are sort of
these daily volatility resetting
products you're exposing yourself to
what we call negative Gamma or
volatility drift and that's not good but
if you say I'm a Buy and Hold type of
person you're the the Warren Buffett
type of person and you're going to
compound over time by systematically
trying to reduce your total your your
expected loss if you get it wrong but
just keep keep stay in the game if you
stay in the game then over time you
should do well but the more you trade
the more money you lose and that's just
a fact and so I think the fallacy is oh
I like high volatility I want to go to
the financial markets casino and start
trading and then obviously you fall prey
to the simple nature of like you know as
humans we have no idea what the future
holds and so trying to trade on sort of
like a very short time frame is a recipe
to lose all your money of course there
are these few Traders out there who are
the standout exceptions to that and
they're sort of paraded across the um
Financial mainstream media oh look what
this guy did you know he turned a
thousand dollar into a million dollars
day trading every day here's this system
do this do that pay me a bunch of fees
right
so day trading unless you're very very
good at it you will lose lose all your
money and yes the volatility is makes it
fun so if you approach it as an
entertainment situation like you go to
the casino you're going to play crops
you know you're gonna lose money but
it's fun I'm gonna have some drinks hang
out with my friends approach financial
markets okay I'm gonna go trade on my on
my brokerage account or my crypto
account or whatever tra of meme coins
I'm having fun my price of fun is the
Thousand doll that I'm going to lose
over time but it's fun because I know
yeah maybe if I get really lucky it
could turn into a million dollars but
over time I'm going to
$1,000 yeah uh I think that's actually
the accurate way to think about most of
the uh certainly the stock market most
of Finance in general is that and the
more I study Finance the more I become
convinced this is all a game of gambling
uh and it's just a level of
sophisticated gambling I won't derail us
on that because I really get soap boxy
about this uh but I would just like to
quote what you just said a second ago
the more you trade the more you lose now
I don't know how much trouble that's
going to get you uh for distilling it
down like that but I think it's really
important for people to understand that
all right I want to keep going on
volatility so what is it that makes for
volatility is it somebody panics and
sells is that the only thing that pulls
the price down well the price can go up
too so I think people ass get more
people want into a finite thing but what
I want to understand is to the downside
what what makes some because when
somebody says High volatility you're
never going to get an only up obviously
everybody wants that they want the only
up volatility I get it that's the
fantasy but that's not the reality so
high Vault Traders are all for something
that whipsaws up and down so I want to
know what causes the down because I
think it's someone
losing yeah so it's it's basically
the the fear of loss and how you feel
about losing money
is more is stronger than the amazing
feeling you make money right so I'm more
afraid of losing the $100 and making
than the the joy I feel when I make the
thousand and so as the fear of loss
kicks in oh [ __ ] I need to make sure
that I have this Capital oh that was my
car payment that was my mortgage that
was my kids college fund maybe I
shouldn't have been yoloing on on that
Meme stock let me just get out of this
right now to like make sure that I have
that some of that Capital left and
that's the natural human reaction which
caus you to just like jam that cell
button as soon as you see things aren't
going your way which is obviously not
what you should be doing you should be
able to wear the Up and the down
volatility and equid but that's not
human nature at the end of the
day yeah so uh this is why anybody in my
community that can hear me speaking as
long as you understand that high
volatility means when it goes down
that's somebody losing it's somebody
panicking that they've already actually
lost or they are actively losing or even
worse they've been liquidated and so it
all goes to absolutely zero if they were
trading on Leverage so seeking out High
volatility is to seek out maximum pain
someone in there in in the high
volatility there are people losing and
running for the exit and as long as you
understand the more you trade the more
you lose great if you see yourself as
somebody playing craps I love it but man
when I talk to my own employees uh which
gearing up for this episode I had people
walking in because they were listening
to us prep uh for our time together and
so once we started talking about
altcoins all of a sudden people are here
they're like What's that ala man you're
talking to Arthur we want to hear about
it and I'm just like guys I need to know
that you know the game that you're
playing and as long as you're treating
this like a weekend to Vegas I'm here
for it uh but if you're not I get scared
um two things do you know have you heard
the Bruno Mars story no so The Story
Goes I cannot verify this but there are
people online verifying it saying they
were there so he's doing uh a stint at
uh MGM
performing and basically people are
saying he's an indentured servant
because he lost I think 52 or 53
million at the casino and then when they
called him he said I I can't pay it so
they said well guess what have an idea
yeah so I mean look it it's rumor I
can't verify it but it's one of those
where people are talking pretty openly
about I was there this is what happened
uh that that's the kind of thing that
you can end up in real trouble these
these losses can stack super fast um
okay so that was just a fun bit of uh
info but now I want to talk about um uh
Murad do you know him yes so I we we
were on a podcast together maybe a few
weeks ago or a month ago yeah so I'm
familiar with him we we uh chatt for a
bit it was a very entertaining um
chitchat okay so he's got a new theory
on Meme coins and how they really do
offer utility and he he has a very
interesting take on what they are um
before we get to that what's your take
on Meme coins and altcoins uh what do
you think is going on and are they
heating back up right now so number one
the authorities globally are trying to
restrict volatility and channel you into
their preferred investment products
which are government bonds which you
know we can talk of ad nauseum about
this are intrinsically going to be
debased insanely amounts they want you
to go into the you know super safe you
know bond fund that's going to get
crushed by inflation that they have to
use to write their balance sheet so
that's what they want you to do but
people are like [ __ ] this I I want to be
EXC I want something exciting I want
something where I believe that the game
isn't rigged and so you get the GameStop
situation that started kicked off in was
a 20121 in January now we have meme
coins which are intrinsically all
worthless no one's out there saying
they're worth anything they don't have
no utility they do nothing they
literally are just a manifestation of
human culture that we can trade
and so what is the most important part
of human culture the parts of human
culture that everybody is participating
in has the most attention so when you're
trading mcoins and a lot of altcoins
you're trading attention is this
community able to grab more and more
attention of the world of the investing
public is their their joke their video
their image their tagline is it catchy
do I hear more and more people saying
viewing these memes if so okay I'm going
to buy this particular mem coin and
it'll go up in price as the attention
that it Garners increases and then
obviously all cultural things diminish
over time at some point that cultural
artifact becomes irrelevant the zise
changes and then it falls precipitously
in price and so what mcoins are are it's
essentially Humanity human culture
attention economy encapsulated in this
247 trading Market that anyone with an
internet connection can access and
that's what they are and that's why
they're so much fun to trade because
this is the first time in human history
where literally oh I saw that on social
media my friend was talking about it I
think more people will talk about it in
the future therefore I will buy this
meme coin today because I know others
will buy more of it
tomorrow
the very succinct summation and I think
that that is really an orienting
mechanism for people mean coins are
useless it's tradeable culture
uh what I want to make sure people don't
miss in what you said is that while they
may not have utility it doesn't mean
that it's not fun to get in and trade it
doesn't mean that this isn't a huge
moment with billions of dollars uh
flowing in and out of it uh and that's
what I think um Murad I think that's how
you pronounce his name has really um
summed up he's got this idea of PVP meme
coins AKA hyper gambling uh versus PVE
meme coins AKA Colts and just the idea
of using gamer technology to speak to
the people that are really playing this
game and I think that
is it's very important if you want to
understand this moment so I will
research with my producer or build out
an interview with my producer oftentimes
here on set which means that the team
can hear us and it's pretty rare that
people will walk up and want to listen
in uh as soon as we started talking
about meme coins specifically as it
relates to you as sort of the KE king of
meme coins uh we had people come in and
so I went around to each of the people
here at my company and was just like you
know do you trade meme coins do you
trade meme coins and most of them were
yes one or two were like I don't even
know what that means
um they could play in the stock market
they could go to the casino what is it
about meme coins is is it the sense that
they can win the game that they can
outsmart people like why are meme coins
supercharged they were in the last cycle
I can feel it building up again in this
cycle there's something that really
grips
people well the first thing is that true
meme coins you know the are non PVP
meaning there's a a team Anonymous team
whatever they in this cycle it's pumped.
fun on Solana which is the main conduit
which we launching these things they put
out 100% of the supply on day one they
launch a pool on rum or one of these
decentralized exchanges and anyone can
get in at ground level there's nobody
who got in before you who has a whole
entire Financial Services System set up
to dump on you which is what the stock
market is you know the people who
Capital formate in the private rounds
for the most promising technology
companies in at least in the last 30
years are the ones selling to you on IPO
day and obviously they're going to do
whatever they can to get you to buy at
an inflated valuation now sometimes you
get a Facebook and sometimes you get a
pets.com right but at the end of the day
you will never become Mark andreon you
will never become Peter theel because
those guys got in when Facebooks are the
type of companies when they were selling
at you know $10 million valuations $20
million valuations you will never get
that deal as a rual investor you get the
10 billion dollar Facebook deal well now
maybe 10 billion goes to a trillion but
imagine if you got it at
10 million to a trillion obviously
there's a lot of risk I'm glossing over
that like VCS are taking a lot of risk
in the early stages but they've got an
entire ecosystem of laws regulations
intermediaries set up to make sure that
they as successful as possible because
they're going to make sure that retail
cannot participate in the most promising
companies early they can only do it late
and so everybody intrinsically
understands this this was this was the
whole angst about why these you know
hedge funds able to short these stocks
and do essentially possibly illegal
things and you know Ken Griffin calling
the exchange you know I'm sure didn't do
that but you know shutting down the
trading of these stocks because they're
too volatile because there's a bunch of
these Legacy institutions are going to
lose a lot of money like people
intrinsically understood the stock
market was rigged they saw it explicitly
in action in
2021 and now you have this crypto thing
where the best mecoin projects are ones
where everyone could have gotten in on
the the ground level there is no there's
no Insider who got a better deal than
you if you saw it first and you were
able to act quickly you got in to you
know dog with hat at a very low
valuation or Pepe or um harambe or some
of these other very successful meme
coins you could have gotten the 10,000x
return you will never get that return on
the next Facebook as a retail investor
and that is the meta narrative that's
powering people to say well [ __ ] the
stock market [ __ ] the bond market [ __ ]
all these coins that I wasn't able to
get in early if I was willing to take
that risk I want to take the risk I want
to try to hit the 10,000x return because
if you look at a mathematical basis is
actually um expected value positive
because you investing in Facebook at the
IPO the stock dumped like I know 75 80%
over the last the next two years after
the IPO you're already down 80% the
mcoin you bought that you know that is
intr intrinsically worthless could also
go down 80% but Facebook will never
return you 10,000 times the meme coin
can and so you actually are from an
expected value perspective better off
punting extremely risky meme coins than
buying at the top of the market
extremely risky from a Market's
perspective new technology companies so
that's why meme coins are a thing
they're going to continue to be a thing
as more people learn about the
centralized exchanges about browser
based wallets about how to move their
Fiat dollars into a token that
represents those Fiat dollars like an
Athena tether a usdc on circle on chain
they're going to be doing more of this
style training and they're going to
demand from teams that they reduce or
eliminate the ability for insiders to
get a deal better than them if you want
my participation in your community if
you want me to talk about your product
if you want my attention then you need
to give me the same deal that everybody
else gets and I'm going to take the same
risk and I could lose all my money but I
also could make 10,000 x so that's meme
coins what encapsulates to me as a as a
movement as we sort of get more
comfortable being completely on chain
and sort of disintermediating all of the
financial intermediaries that take a cut
and restrict access only up until the
time when they want to dump on
you all right so the question becomes
then is this a child's tantrum
and these are just people annoyed with
the current system or is this a new
system that the the youth is building
from the ground up I think it's a new
syst that the youth is building from the
ground up once you start trading mem
coins and having 247 access to your
money it's very difficult to go back to
trading stocks at you know N9 to5 and
you see that the stock markets are
realizing oh [ __ ] okay we didn't want to
do 247 trading but it's happening we
need to get there because our
competition is this crypto thing thing
where they can people can trade things
when they get off of work when they're
on the subway when they wake up in the
morning wherever they feel like trading
there's a market we as a legacy stock
and bond markets need to meet the
customer the Gen Z's where they're at
they want 247 trading they want app
based trading they want intuitive UI ux
we need to give it to them or they're
never going to trade this my stock again
and so yes you're going to see 247
trading you're going to see more Robin
Hood Type interfaces that are going to
allow retail traders to get this sort of
look feel that they get on a on sort of
a a DEX in crypto or you know how you're
trading on pump that Fund in in meme
coins so we're going to start seeing
Legacy Finance mirroring what's going on
in the crypto and decentralized finance
space because the youth wants to trade
and invest differently than you know the
Boomers that is really interesting so
I'm going to start putting a couple
pieces
together so here's what I just heard
meme coins are worthless they're not
real yet they're very real because they
are capturing cultural energy of the
youth who have realized the system that
they have stepped into is rigged um I
want to put a point on the way it's
rigged this was when I first began to
realize that the system had such deep
flaws that people should be very angry I
became accredited investor when I made a
ton of money and I was like but I don't
know anything about investing so this
seems now unfair to me that I now have
access to deal flow and opportunities
that the average person doesn't have who
may know 10 times a 100 times more than
me about
investing so to your point the
traditional system has like all this
before it IPOs thing which is where I i'
shudder to think the percentage of The
Upside that is captured before it IPOs
like if you took all of the market over
the last 100 years uh it's it's so L
disproportionate to the people that are
in before the IPO which the average
person cannot be a part of uh so now you
see the youth sort of do these start and
stop movements so first they try Occupy
Wall Street they don't really know what
they want it doesn't go anywhere but you
can feel the Rage Against the Machine
then you get uh the GameStop movement
where they realize oh wait a second we
can actually use this against these guys
and we can make money but like there was
such an ethos of don't sell that the one
hero to come out of GameStop was the guy
that didn't sell right so even though he
wrote it all the way up and all the way
back down he was a hero because it was
like this this real bottomup youth
movement but then that becomes and I
know that Meme coins were happening at
the same time but that becomes the memec
coin movement which I think now is
really gaining legitimacy in the youth
culture via the mechanisms you're
talking about which is we're not going
to let people in before us cuz
originally meme coins were still like
that same sort of corrupted system of
there's a layer of people that are
getting access to this before you
literally VCS driving the price up
through a bunch of hype and then it
would just stair step down from there
not stair step it sort of Spike up and
down as people would pump and dump as
they say uh but all the value was
captured before it went live and so now
seeing the movement become not the
distracted movement of Occupy Wall
Street but the very concentrated
movement of I see an opportunity to
build a new system and that new system
is going to be totally equal the the
token gets launched to everybody if
you're a VC and you want in you got to
buy in the market just like everybody
else um that's very interesting but the
thing that matters most to me is the way
that it it is the emperor's new close
where finally the nature of trading is
revealed as gambling full
stop and that's been something I've had
a really hard time convincing people
they want to layer narrative and all
this on the top of it the market is
gambling in in a very refined fashion
because I'll grant you that all of life
is gambling you once said to me walking
up the stairs taking the elevator versus
walking up the stairs is gambling fair
but it's not refined gambling in the way
that the stock market is this new system
meme coins is
like the the cut pure cocaine of
gambling I mean this this is a shot
right up the nose man
uh it is really really
fascinating what do you think is going
to happen with all of that explanation
what's going to happen this cycle crypto
Haze people turn to you you've got a
good read on this stuff what's going to
play out everyone knows you can't
predict the future but you've got a a
good ability to read the room what's
going to happen well meme coins is an
asset class you know the all of are
starting you know I get all these you
know deals I messages I got one
overnight hey we've got all the major
K's you know do you want to like invest
in this particular meme coin X XNY
Market maker on board XNY you know
high-profile VCS are on board and we're
going to launch launch this coin so
we're starting to see that because we as
Traders we've got you know a large
Capital base we need to be where the
market's at the market is mem coins and
this particular type of capital
formation so now you're seeing starting
to see people to to ape these particular
types of things now the problem with
that is when people like me are
launching a meme coin I know it's going
to fail because I'm not the culture the
culture is the man or woman who's
sitting in their basement angry or sad
or happy or some sort of emotion about
something talking about it with their
friends on Discord or twitch or whatever
and coming up with the culture I am not
the culture I'm a consumer of the
culture I cannot dictate what the
culture is and if people like me with
money are trying to dictate the culture
I guess that's going to go to zero
immediately not not that the other one's
not going to go to zero too but at least
that's Grassroots bottom up and has a
little bit more authenticity than a
bunch of rich people saying I'm going to
create a mem coin and yeah it's going to
go up in price so all all that is to say
that is it the thing now people realize
that there's money to be made one of the
most profitable decentralized
applications this cycle is pumped out
fun they make something like I don't
know5 to10 million in fees every day uh
in terms of when you're launching these
things and so we in the invesment
community we know this is a thing we
know this is how the market is going to
evolve there are going to be you know
Meme coins that are going to approach
the valuation of Dogecoin right Dogecoin
is the original meme it does
nothing stated by the founder of the
thing and now you have you know a a
potential Department in the United
States government with the acronym of of
dots just because it's funny and and
memeable right
and so if you have government officials
getting into this game then it's only
going to get bigger that doesn't mean
the meme coin that you own is going to
go up in price there's going to be a
system I don't know what that is you
know I I'm just a punter I'm just a
gambler just like you when I trade these
things but there will be a few standout
success meme coins that are you know 50
to 100 billion dollar market cap things
there'll be a few of those and then
people will be chasing those and most of
them will by the next cycle there'll
still be meme coins but the memes that
around this cycle will be cents on the
dollar and worthless so again it's going
to it's going to get more silly I don't
know what the the most silliest memec
coin thing is going to be this cycle but
it'll be pretty obvious in hindsight but
we won't know what it is when we're in
the
moment and how would you advise somebody
if they were going to come to you and
say look uh Arthur I know that this is
just gambling I'm just having fun I'm
probably going to end up on the negative
side of this but I want to have a great
time but I I do want to do this with a
thesis um what thesis would you give
them just like Blackjack has like rules
you hit on this you don't hit on that
you can obviously ignore them but what
rules would you give uh a meme coin Lord
how should they how should so how do I
mean this is how I approach when I start
trading these things so number one I'm
always late I don't ever want to be
early I'm not trying to be early yes
there are the the people that are early
mean they get something really cheap and
it does the $1,000 next but you've got
to invest in a lot of things to hit
those because you're not you're not sure
what you know what $10 million market
cap mean coin is going to grow to a
billion very very difficult so if you
look at the stats from pump. fund and I
might be getting these things off by
order of magnitude but the number of
meme coins that are between a 100
million to1 billion dollar market cap is
something
like
0.01% of all launch meme coins this
cycle the ones that get from 1 billion
plus there's probably less than 10 right
of all the I don't know it's probably
10,000 or so 100,000 whatever a number
of meme coins that have launched between
you know the pump out fund has been
around the last what 18 months something
like that so the memec coin Market is
very Lindy and to talk about Nim talib's
terms right what has been success what's
valuable in the past is more likely to
be valuable in the future so I want to
play in the $100 million to $500 million
market cap coin if your coin can get
enough attention to get to that market
cap then I'm going to bet that you go to
a billion dollar plus right so I'm
looking at a you know 2 to 10x return
but it's very unlikely that the 100
million $1500 million market cap memec
coin goes down 95% very very quickly
because it's already got this inbuilt
community and the momentum building so
it's it's Lindy in the in the mcoin
space so that's when I want to place my
bets tell me something's above $100
million market cap where am I hearing
about it who's telling me about it which
types of influencers on Twitter or in
the certain chat rooms okay I look at
the chart I like I like things that have
made higher highs it doesn't matter if
it dumps but did it dump did it retake
the high or did it get in a smidgen did
it get close but then fell fell again so
I want to look at the chart and through
charts I can read human emotions is this
emotional roller coaster petering out or
is it a healthy expansion uh in the
future and that's how I view sort of
mcoin trading and I'm okay losing money
because again what am I trying to hit
I'm trying to hit a two to 10x that's my
goal I want a100 million doll mem coin
to a billion dollars if it goes from
a100 million to $50 million I'm probably
just going to cut it fine if it goes
from 100 to 250 to 500 I'm adding I'm
adding two winners I'm cutting losers
and so then I'm building a position as
it goes up I see it get to billion do I
think it's going to go to 10 or 20 or 30
maybe but I had a plan I executed on my
plan I'm probably going to exit the
market again I'm not trying to hit a
10,000x I'm trying to hit a 2 to 10x
with cap downside in terms of how I'm
going to close my positions so I'm very
methodical about it and I know that I
have no intrinsic skill at this because
again I'm late this isn't what I do for
living I'm not in the chat rooms all day
and so it needs to be something that
comes up through just my general living
and talking to people within the
industry but something that's
hot and when you talk about the Lindy
idea which uh I can't remember if you
defined it but Lindy is the longer
something has existed the more likely it
is to exist into the future um but does
that cross Cycles or given what you said
about last Cycles ones being sort of
pennies on the dollar this cycle is this
all sort of tied up in we have the this
goes in cycles for anybody hearing about
this the first time so it'll go in a
cycle where it's like up up up only up
oh my God it's going to go on forever
crash and then there's like some period
of time often measured in years before
we get back and the energy builds up
again and and that's very much where we
are now I can feel the energy building
back up does Lindy Cross or would you
say eh if it was big in the last cycle
ignore it it's not going to be big again
look for the new stuff so I am on the
opinion of look for the new stuff and I
only want to I only trade meme coins
when I like the macro situation when I
like the money printing situation the
pace of it the feeling about it the talk
about it that okay it's time to trade
meme coins because again I'm very risk
averse I want to make my 10x return in a
matter of weeks I don't want to be
sitting there with this coin that I know
is intrinsically worthless that will
just naturally lose attention because
we're humans we want what's the new
thing where's the culture moving I don't
want to be you know stuck in the 90s in
the knots right and so at the end of the
day I want to make sure that the
Market's in a going up mood so I I wake
up in the morning and oh great my
thing's up 20% oh great it's up 20% I'm
in going up mode I do not want to be in
going down mode or sideways mode because
at that point in time there's better
uses of my Capital now it's time to look
for Value okay who's building something
you know real where I know that the
price that they're selling it at is very
cheap relative where it's going to be
when we're in going up mode I I
shouldn't be Trading meme coins you
should be trading meme coins at least in
my perspective you know in 2022
2023 reason why M my fund is done so
well is because we were investing in the
depths of the bare boring market now we
do very little early stage deals it's
all what's going up tell me what's going
up tell me where the culture is we're in
going up mode I want to be on that I
don't care about the fundamentals of
what I'm buying I know most of the stuff
will not last in the next cycle but the
liquidity is at my back we're in going
up mode so I need a dance so let's buy
stuff so that's how I view the trading
landscape but again I'm very loss verse
I don't want to lose money to a large
extent and so I limit my bets to things
and I limit my time frame to something
I'm comfortable with and every that's
different for
everybody this is like anti-value
investing I love it this is uh
absolutely fascinating uh so you said
that you're not in the chat rooms the
people that you see be successful with
meme coins or I'll say it as a statement
for my side you tell me if you've seen
the same the people that I know that
have done wellish obviously there's no
guarantees here but that have done
wellish in the last two cycles with meme
coins live in the chat rooms for them
it's all about that sort of back room
energy what's hyped what's that early
Alpha uh who gets the sense that there's
cracks in the narrative that maybe this
isn't going to play out and so they know
and did take their chips off the table
I've been in groups where people will
literally say okay are we bu we buying
now we selling now like what are we
doing and they're trying to coordinate
and block blocks I think partly to it
actually doesn't feel like they're
trying to pump and dump what it feels
like is they don't want to be the last
man standing they don't want to be the
last one to realize oh we're going to
sell they don't want to make a dumb
decision if everybody gets out together
then they feel less dumb if it goes up
and if um Everybody stays they feel less
dumb if it goes down and then if there's
wisdom in the crowd then they're able to
take advantage of it but it feels like
if you're not doing that odds of you
keeping your finger on the pulse are
very low would you agree with that
absolutely mean to be a crypto day
trader if you want to be a stock day
trader a Forex day trader options day
trader pick your financial asset class
if you if this isn't your full-time job
you will lose all your money just period
if you're not putting in the work then
you will not get the reward if you can't
do that because of your mental
predilection or your full-time job then
be more of a Buy and Hold type person
doesn't mean you can't trade meme coins
but you know maybe want to treat
something with a little bit more Lindy
maybe you're not in the chat rooms
buying the 1 million $10 million market
cap Point thinking it's going to go to a
billion you're buying the $500 million
market cap coin that goes to a billion
yes your returns less but it's less
likely for you to lose all your money
very quickly but a $10 million market
cap mcoin can go nowhere very quick and
go down to one very quickly as well so I
think people need to like self- select
their lifestyle for what they want to
achieve in trading if you're not if you
do not have the lifestyle to sit in
front of a computer screen
all your waking hours have alerts on
your phone and all this kind of stuff
which is fine I don't do it I don't
think that's fulfilling at least for me
then don't do it and then change his
training strategy but don't think you're
GNA be you know I got on the subway my
45 minutes you know commute home I'm
gonna trade some meme coins and I'm
gonna quit my job next week like that
ain't
happening all right I want to read some
of um the things that were listed I
think by Murad that were listed as the
utility of meme coins because I really
um I'm finding this narrative that
you're talking about very realistic very
compelling very revelatory of the flip
in the system that I can feel coming I
knew eventually the youth would take
over and this might be the way that they
do it uh so here's the the meme coins
offer a lot of utility slide I'm just
going to read a few of these uh having
fun loneliness reduction identity
finding a similar crew hope provisioning
friend ship being a part of a Cutting
Edge culture a sense of belonging uh a
guild in the MMO RPG that is crypto and
on and on it goes that's that's less
than half of them but uh it's a pretty
interesting idea because that reads like
a cultural phenomenon it does not read
like a financial phenomenon uh and that
feels right for the Youth today in terms
of how socially connected they are how
uh they feel rejected by the system how
it's it is inevitable that they're going
to inherit and thusly take over the
system now do you think that this is
going to um happen under Trump is he
going to accelerate this is he going to
block this uh what does that look like
are meme coins gonna get crushed out of
existence I think Trump is just a
representative of the time so more like
a I take more of like a a Harry Seldin
sort of approach to things if you're
familiar with the foundation series by
azim off and and psycho history which
like individual people don't have that
much of an effect based on just the way
that history is moving right people
think that Trump is the one causing all
these you know terrorists and changeing
E American economic policy and all these
sort of things and my my belief is that
Trump is just a representation of
something that would have happened
anyways he might be very bombastic
representation of that but the America
that he's inheriting is because of
things that happened 80 years ago or 50
years ago or decades in the making or
what other countries have done were
their particular set of policies decades
ago up until the present Trump's just a
very loud voice box of things that are
already happening and so I think that
what Mora describes has nothing to do
with politics it's if we're going if we
educated a whole generation on their
smartphone and I know there's been
pushbacks on that and you know we have
pre-teens on social media obviously
people are saying that's a really bad
thing doesn't really matter they're
connected in this way okay well are they
going to express themselves financially
in the same way that a boomer who didn't
get a mobile phone until the you know
late 1990s because they were so
expensive um had to you know call their
friends in a landline back in the day
didn't have email aren't they going to
express themselves financially different
than the generation that's running
things of course that's that's that's
human nature if you're read is it uh how
and STW from the fourth turning and sort
of how generational cohorts move
throughout history together you know
every 80 years we have sort of a reset
because you know the people die out
there's a new generation they have a new
technological software that governs how
they how they act interact with each
other and that manifests itself through
the culture through financial services
and and all these sorts of things and so
I don't think Trump trump is irrelevant
to this whole phenomenon of a social
media connected generation whether you
think it's good or bad who lives on
their smartphones whose best friend
might be you know a thousand kilometers
away in the communicating chat rooms and
twitch and video games and all these
sorts of things they're not going out
into the park and communicating that way
or to restaurants or to a bar in the
same ways that I may have or uh my mom
or my dad may have right so I think this
isn't
a Republican Democrat or pick your left
right political sort of sort of thing
this is how have we brought up this
generation gen Z how are they going to
express themselves financially and now
what do we have we have sort of this we
have Boomers with all this wealth they
need to sell it at some point does the
youth want to buy what the boomers are
selling that's the
question yeah I think the aggressive
answer that we're seeing from them is no
they don't uh there's just too much
Financial isolation they they have been
Iced Out Of A system that uh through the
mechanism that that you've written about
a lot and you touched on briefly here of
the way that money gets into the system
how it sidesteps people in fact I think
it's worth going into you wrote an
article about how a dollar gets into the
system when the FED is buying uh assets
when they're injecting Capital into the
system uh if you don't mind walk us
through how does money get to the rich
and make the rich richer and what would
it need to look like for the money to
get to the the pleaes uh as you loving
call them so that people can understand
a bad system when they see it yeah so
quantitative easing I know we have these
new terms for it but it's been around
for a very very long time the first
quantitative easing episode happened
with the bank of England I don't know I
forget the particular financial crisis
it might have been the um collapse it
was the collapse of
the one of the major trading companies
that got overextended a few Wars over in
in the in the colonial period the bank
of England stepped in and printed money
to bail out this this company and that
was some May 17th century something that
but quantitative easing printing money
to right size a financial ecosystem Is
Not A New Concept we just have new terms
for it but at the end of the day what is
Fiat money Fiat money is created either
by the government spending it to in
existence or the banking system creating
a loan which creates a corresponding
deposit so with that framework in mind
what happens when the Federal Reserve
buys
bonds it's qu quantitative EAS
essentially what the FED does is they
say hey JP Morgan and that was the
example that I Ed I'm going to credit
you a deposit on my ledger and I'm going
to take this bond from you or one of
your clients in the example I use Black
Rock black rock sells a bond to the fed
the FED uses JP Morgan as an
intermediary and now JP Morgan has a
corresponding deposit at the FED Black
Rock now is a corresponding deposit at
GP Morgan and the question is what does
Black Rock do with this new money right
if all the government is doing is
printing money to buy Financial assets
does that Inspire confidence that there
is an underlying demand for money from
the people the people who were with the
most propensity to spend of course not
we know that rich people are rich
because they've satisfied their shorts
in life they have a house they have a
car they have food to eat they don't
need to buy any more stuff what do they
buy they buy Financial assets stocks
bonds more real estate or they buy
trophy assets nice watches expensive art
all these types of things and so the
example that I Illustrated in the essay
was taking a dollar I've taken a safe
Financial a Government Bond that pays an
interest rate I've taken that from the
financial from a rich person I've given
them money what does the rich person do
okay well I don't have the bond anymore
that paid me two or 3% or whatever it is
I need something else I go out and I buy
stocks or from a company I do a stock
buyback why would I increase production
and take operational risk when my when
my my base customer didn't get any
wealthier because the government printed
this money and bought these bonds and so
what I go through to show is that
quantitative easing creates no or very
little real economic activity no one's
going out and buying stuff what happens
is you give rich people more funny money
and what do they do they go and they buy
more stuff that they think they want
watches cars art if you give it to a
company their end customer didn't get
any wealthier so they're not hiring any
more people because why would you hire
more people when they don't have any
more money you buy back your stock
because that enriches your very wealthy
shareholders better than you taking risk
and trying to offer a new product and so
quantitative easing doesn't increase the
growth potential of an economy it just
increases its indebtedness and so if you
take a look in the United States for
example 2008 until 2020 the the QE
period the debt to GDP Rose from
something like I want to say 30 or 40%
to 128% or whatever it is but it's that
sort of magnitude of you increased the
debt and you did nothing for the
underlying economy That's What I Call QE
for rich people
so uh QE for poor people
means that okay well instead of giving
this money to rich people to buy stuff
how do we incentivize those who want to
consume either you know the 99% of the
economy or 90% of of the workforce to do
that well the government needs to spend
the money into stuff so in 2020 what
happened right there was the co thing um
and Trump was cautioned by his advisers
maybe erroneously so that he needed to
shut down the economy and so he's said
well okay that's really bad he's a
business person obviously shutting down
the economy is not good people lose
their jobs blah blah blah how do we get
people not to revolt okay we're gonna
hand them money so Trump did helicopter
money probably the most redistributive
Financial policy since Franklin deler
Roosevelt in the 1930s with the New Deal
in terms of what he did for people in
America in terms of how printed money
was handed out so the treasury mailed
everybody a check as a lot of your
listeners know they got the the stimulus
check I know a few thousand do in the
mail whatever it was and so it wasn't
means tested if you had a job if you
didn't have a job you got a check right
and so what did you what did you do you
went out and you bought stuff that you
wanted cars washing machines you know
got a fancy or haircut whatever right
went on a nice foreign vacation okay mem
coins so exactly mem coins Bitcoin if
you had you if you had enough of that
stuff but at the end of the day you gave
money to people who needed to buy stuff
and so theyre inre the consumption of
goods what happened cars were sold out
you went to you know I don't know it's
seus still thing you went to the
department store and you bought a
washing machine oh [ __ ] the one I wanted
isn't here because everybody else in the
country now is able to upgrade their
lifestyle and buying these things that
they want oh guess what happened now
that there's all this demand you
actually saw loans to small businesses
by non too big to fail Banks so the
regional Banks they're they amount of
loans they issued in the 2020 to 2022
period was above Trend because the
businesses had customers who had money
to spend and they out of product so they
need to increase production and the bank
was like of course I will lend you money
to go and increase your production hire
more people pay your staff more and so
we saw all this economic growth because
the FED printed money the treasury spent
it into the economy and instead of it
going to very very rich people in terms
of the the money it went to everybody in
America and they all decided I want to
buy something whether it's a good or a
service and obviously there wasn't
enough capacity in the system the
capacity expanded so you saw nominal GDP
growth accelerate rapidly from 2020 to
2023 you saw debt to GDP actually
decline by I think 10 or 15 percentage
points so QE for poor people is
inflationary as we know inflation went
up however from the government's
perspective it Del leverages their
balance sheet and it allows everyone to
participate in buying stuff except
rather than just you know the top 1% of
its people who own Financial assets who
get richer you know trading stocks
between themselves or you know expensive
houses so these are the two systems and
the way that a money is created the bank
created money because it lent money to
businesses to expand it gave you a
personal loan because you had a solid
job because employment was up because
there people were buying more stuff
right so QE for poor people gives the
banks the ability to profitably issue
more credit which increases the money
supply it increases the velocity of
money it increases growth gross amount
of product so it's very good for the
government the bad thing is obviously
inflation which was experienced in in
the United States and and other places
around the world but these are the two
ways that the FED can print money and
the government can spend it or they can
hand it out to rich people via stock
BuyBacks and you know other other things
and so that's what I sort of Illustrated
in a very technical away with accounting
t- charts and so back to where we orual
discussion in the beginning why is there
going to be 10 trillion dollars of
credit created well Trump saw what
happened when he did the stimulus checks
and Biden followed with a stimulus check
of his own it was successful the US
government is overleveraged Scott
bessent the new treasury secretary
should he be confirmed understands this
to a very deep degree the US government
must do leverage if they're going to
accomplish any of their goals this is
the way to do it and it makes the banks
profitable it makes everybody in the
United States feel wealthier yes there
is a bit of inflation everyone has a job
businesses come back to build more
production inside of America because
there's their customer there willing to
buy stuff and so that's why I believe
this is going to be the government
policy QE for poor people because they
did they did QE for rich people and
there's obviously you know bad effects
to that and you have sort of social
strife and this contian effect of you
know the rich get richer the poor get
poor all that sort of stuff
happens and worst off the government
balance sheet deteriorates which is not
good so it's in the government's best
interest to pursue this policy of
encouraging Bank credit growth by
spending this money and giving it to
everyone versus just the top 1% so
that's kind of in a very highlevel uh
way what I was talking about with that
example okay so uh government's going to
print they're going to hand out stimy
checks because that works to reduce the
uh debt to GDP burden um now one thing
that may have been just correlated so I
don't know if they're gonna hand out
stimulus checks in the way they did
during covid but the other way they do
this is they say okay there's a chip
sack the green New Deal all this sort of
industrial policy hey I'm gonna hand you
some money build a chip factory hire
Americans build a new car factory hire
Americans build more natural gas oil
hydrocarbon productive capacity higher
Americans that's the that's going to be
the way they do it this time it won't be
hey everybody gets a$ th check in the
mail that was very inflationary I don't
think they're going to repeat that again
got it got it that that's where I
thought you were going and I was like
whoa uh because that had some some knock
on consequences okay that's really
interesting I didn't know that about the
um that when you're doing it the rich
people way that it actually worsens your
debt to GDP that is horrible and should
be avoided at all costs uh so that's
really interesting now I'm not a money
printer guy but at least if there's a
path using money printing to do what um
Ray Delio calls the beautiful
deleveraging uh it's got to be done so
that's certainly better than open
Warfare but it does beg a question of
government control now you wrote another
article very very impressive article as
yours always are and in it you I'm not
going to be able to get the the words
perfect but it it's this idea that a
regime like the incoming Trump
Administration could use fiscal policy
as a way to make the populace dependent
on them or their financial success
dependent on them such that they get
reelected do you see that as a um a
problem
incoming I mean I think let let put
let's not put a moralistic term on it
it's neither good nor bad
if you're a politician in a
representative democracy like the United
States you know in US Congress you're
elected every two years and the Senate
it's every six Trump's got a problem
okay so we he won a landslide
Victory his Edge in the house and the
Senate I think it's one one person in
the house and maybe two or three
senators in the Senate and there's going
to be another election in
2026 now everybody's human they said
okay Biden bad because you know
inflation I don't like my job okay
there's this other guy over here Trump
I'll vote for him you could reverse it
if Trump was a president and cor his
vice president was ready for re-election
and he had the same economy that that
Biden presided over and then you had
Cala Harris as the Challenger they would
have voted for Harris it doesn't matter
the party is irrelevant I think people
need to get out of this blue versus red
Republican Democrat like if I'm the
median voter Biden [ __ ] me okay I'm
GNA go with Trump okay it's
2026 or 20 25 which congressman am I
voting for did I all these problems that
Trump city is going to solve why aren't
they solved yet are they're not solved
yet okay I'm going back to the Democrats
that's what Trump has to counter and
obviously Trump is not getting reelected
but he wants JD Vance and all these
other people that that are writing on
his coattails to be in government
positions long after he's gone and so
he's got to be very uh conscious of like
how do Republican congressmen and
senators get re elected in
2026 which means I think that this
policy that I've outlined which Scot
Scott Besson and some of other other
advisers have hinted at is the way to go
Congress person could say I brought that
factory back to my district look there's
10,000 new jobs created because of this
bill that you know I voted on sponsored
by whoever right so they need to be able
to point back to things that happen
immediately next one to eight 12 to 18
months in their district and so these
are things that can be voted on very
quickly that every elected
representative wants to Champion whether
they're Republican or Democrat if you
are in office today and you're going to
vote against a factory coming into your
District you are not getting reelected
and so it doesn't matter I think there
will be a lot of bipartisan support for
these sorts of policies because the
voter doesn't care if you're Republic
Republican or Democrat they care that
they have a job and that their wages
went up 10% or whatever and then you as
a politician in power can claim that you
are responsible whether that's true or
not is irrelevant but for the median
voter that's what they see and so that's
why I think that this is the only way
for them to really maintain the marginal
lead that they have in the house and the
Senate past 2026 they need to create
jobs yesterday because they only have a
year year and a half before we will
start campaigning and Congress becomes
completely dysfunctional because all
they care about is you know what are the
polls saying about my re-election
chances and yeah maybe this radical
policy that Trump or one of his advisers
put through might benefit you know
America in the long term but I need to
get reelected in a year and there's a
bunch of people who are going to be
disenfranchised by this change change in
uh travel of Direction therefore I can't
vote for this even if they are
Republican and so Trump's ability to
govern is about 12
months yeah it is uh going to be very
interesting to see now in that 12 months
he is talking about uh all kinds of
aggressive tariffs at a minimum as a
negotiating tool what do you think is
going to be the ramifications of trump
and
tariffs I think again it's a negotiating
tool I subscribe to the Scott bessent
sort of quips about okay if you start at
60% maybe it goes to 5% right just
standard business negotiation or yeah
I'll slap 100% tariff on you over the
next four years I'll slowly increase the
temperature of the water as gets close
to Boiling do do we want to make a deal
here right I think it's a negotiating
tactic because at the end of the day
high tariffs in the short run can be NE
very negative for growth in in America
because if you think about America it's
a financialized economy most of the
companies in the S&P 500 and the NASDAQ
100 are international companies that
make the majority of their revenue
outside of the United States and so if
you start slapping tariffs on all you
know especially China all these
countries then China goes oh okay you
want a 25% tariff well actually no
iPhones are sold in my country anymore
go [ __ ] yourself Apple there goes the
everyone's e you know magnificent 7 and
NASDAQ 100 qqs and S&P 500 position
Apple's down 30% how do you like those
capital gains taxes in California ain't
none to go around right and so that's
this is an inter interlocked economy I
think terorists are a threat I think we
can see that they're 30 is inviting Xin
ping to come to inauguration Trump is
inviting sh the president of China to
the inauguration this is negotiation he
started out a position of extreme
maximalism and he'll dial it back to get
the things that him and his team want to
get and so that's where I come down on
on the tff issue and look if they go you
know go ham on ter it's gonna be so NE
negative for growth you can basically
assure a Democrat House and Senate in
2026 and I think they know
that yeah it's going to be a wild ride I
uh we certainly have a front row seat to
it um so speaking of a front row seat to
all of the changes that are happening in
the financial markets talk to me about
stable coins so the idea
that basically money is bifurcated into
two things it's an idea that I heard
first from saor at least put like this I
think it's really insightful and that is
you've got money as currency and money
as capital and capital flows obviously
to sailor it all boils down to bitcoin
uh anybody that wants their uh Capital
preserved in the most efficient way
possible is going to be going into
Bitcoin but Capital flow into currency
is not going to be going into Bitcoin
Bitcoin is just not optimized for that
and so now you start getting into stable
coins not being controlled by uh the
government what do you think is going to
happen to stable coins is this going to
be do we need a regulatory environment
that invit stable coins into the US uh
will the government try to use that as a
moment to slide in cbdcs what what is
this going to play out as so first and
foremost stable coins and you know the
most successful one is tether usdt is
essentially a a
dollar credit that moves on a blockchain
and tether has bank accounts and holds
treasuries in the tune of like 130
billion US dollar now there's other ways
to do stable coins I'm a big investor in
one called Athena but doesn't really
gerain of this
conversation they're very useful outside
of the West let's put it that way right
if you are an American viewer of this
program you probably have a bank account
what it like zel and cash app and all
these sorts of things right it's it's
decently easy to pay somebody in the
United States you go to Western Europe
they have banks that work now you go to
where I live and spend most of my time
which is the other parts of the world
and some banking systems work Singapore
Hong Kong some non-existent or
completely clunky for a tourist I spend
a lot of time in Argentina right very
difficult you know the first time I went
to Argentina I think dollar peso was at
30 or 50 uh last year when I went it was
at a thousand right and okay and and
then the funny thing is the bank will
only let you the bank hasn't adjusted
the amount of cash that you can pull out
of the ATM so now what was like a few
hundred maximum you can pull out the ATM
equivalent is now like 30 bucks and they
charge you $10 fee on top to to move to
take your money out right so it's [ __ ]
up and as a tourist you're like well how
am I going to pay these bills things
have obviously not stayed that cheap
stuff costs money so I use stable coins
they're easy I can pay my ski instructor
I can pay my driver I can pay the
restaurant Bill and everyone has got a
phone everyone has an internet and we
can transact this dollar thing on a
blockchain because you know the dollar
is still the res deserve currency of the
world it's the most used currency and
you know back to gresham's law I spend
bad money I spend Fiat I save good money
I sa Bitcoin so I don't want to spend
Bitcoin when I'm paying people or going
to a restaurant I want to spend dollars
and this is allows me to use the beauty
of decentralized finance and these
blockchains to bypass a banking system
that wouldn't allow me or take a very
long time for me to move money from
where I have it to where I am so that's
the beauty of stable coins I don't think
they're that useful in in the west and
if you take a look at where tether has
been very successful it's been an
emerging economies especially in sort of
like Asia and Latin America and their
Chief competitor in sort of the dollars
in a bank account with a credit on the
blockchain is circle which is very tied
in with coinbase and yes they are
successful but they're nowhere near as
successful as tether because they're
concentrating on a market that doesn't
need their product right Americans and
Western Europeans Don't Need a Dollar
stable coin their stuff kind of works
whereas the rest of the world [ __ ] does
not work and this is a leapfrogging
improvement over how you can move a
stable currency in their mind and pay
for goods and services in a way to
bypasses the the banking system and so I
think stable coins are great it's a
greata use case of the technology has a
product Market fit and yeah I'm I don't
on the regulatory front I mean they work
I don't know if you need any to have any
more
things you know present to make them
work any better because they're used by
people all around the world to solve
real world
problems now an idea that I've heard
that I think is really interesting is
that Bitcoin is not great for us
treasuries because people are not going
to be storing their money in treasuries
if they can get their money stored into
something like
Bitcoin but stable coins are great for
dollar dominance because so many of them
are backed by US security
so uh sorry us treasuries do you think
that stable coins are good for the
dollar like does this help absolutely I
mean tether is the top 20 holder of us
treasuries uh the the fact the notion
that they're not regulated is pure Hocus
Pocus tether complies with you know kyc
AML all all that stuff they give
information to Federal US Federal
authorities on whatever people they want
to get information on right so if you if
you're like oh I'm going to avoid you
know I'm I'm not being seen in the
financial system by using tether you're
an idiot that they're completely their
ability they can freeze your wallet they
can report you to financial authorities
so like don't think that using tether is
somehow allowing you to do some sort of
illicit Financial activities that's
that's just pure uh comedy in my view so
at the end of the day
right this is a dollar it might not be
the dollar that benefits Jamie Diamond
or you know David Solomon at GB Morgan
or Goldman Sachs but it benefits the
Dollar's role as the global Reserve
currency you know the US Treasury and
the government in and of itself so why
are C coins been demonized so much
because the people who run the dollar
for the government the large Money
Center Banks like GP Morgan City Wells
Fargo B of America don't own tether and
tether is the most profitable financial
services company in the world per
employee
something I forgot the number like $60
million per per employer something crazy
uh whatever it is their revenue so their
net income per employee and so that's
why the banks hate them the US
government should didn't have a view
either way if the dollar is getting used
whether is JP Morgan making the money or
you know the tether owners making the
money as long as at the dollar I should
be cool with it and you're starting to
see that change in the most recent
quarterly refunding Announcement by the
US Treasury they had a supplement
presentation all about stable coins and
about how stable coins especially like
tether likee stable coins are
accumulating us short-term us treasuries
and you know the tone of the article was
they're not bad things we should learn
to live with them uh they're still
expanding the use and the role of the
dollar uh and so I think there's been a
bit of a change in term of the mindset
of okay well who cares if Jamie
Diamond's not making money on this as
long as me the government my currency is
being used around the world it's good
for
me yeah that this one strikes me as a
no-brainer if you can get the digital
stable coin backed by a US dollar
product then you're back in the position
of being able to export your uh
inflation around the world even more
even harder now look I'm an
anti-inflation guy but I'm saying if
you've got the system and that's how
it's working and you've got people out
there who would be way better off with
our level of inflation than their own
Hometown like think about Argentina 5
years ago uh or Zimbabwe they would be
killing to have access to uh USD backed
stable coin um great for us great for
them so yeah this one seems like I I'd
be very shocked if our own government
continues to stand in the way Bitcoin
which actually seems to be getting
better adoption uh strikes me as I would
get why they were anti- that which
speaking of by the way Trump being um
nudged certainly by Michael sailor if
nobody else to build a strategic Bitcoin
Reserve what do you think about that
wise gonna happen not gonna happen I
don't think it's gonna happen but I
think the discussion of it is very
instructive to how I believe Trump and
especi and well Scott bessent will be
the one doing it will very rapidly
devalue the dollar so again to bring
jobs home to the United States to make a
company on the margin want to locate a
productive facility in United States the
cost of doing business globally the
dollar is too strong and so how does the
US devalue very quickly without having
to do a lot of these bilateral currency
negotiations so many older listeners who
are American or Western European will be
familiar with in the louv core Plaza
core that happened in the 1980s which
are very unilateral discussions the
treasury secretary at the time said we
are doing this and you know Japan you
will allow your currency to appreciate
and Germany you will do this and France
you will do that now I don't think the
US has that sort of Gravitas and
Military and economic position to sort
of dictate to all these other countries
where there exchanger is going to be
maybe they will but it takes time they
again Trump has 12 months he needs to
get something done yesterday uh and so
how do I devalue the dollar quickly well
what do the us have and more so than any
other country in the world supposedly if
you believe the figures the United
States has least a Fed in the treasury
have the most amount of gold of any
other Sovereign Nation even China again
if you believe the the world Gold
console
figures um I've done the math because
I'm writing about this right now us is
about 8,100 tons of gold that are
supposedly stored in Fort Knox and
because of how the accounting has
transpired the the uh US Treasury sorry
the FED holds gold at
$422 per ounce on its balance sheet that
was a level I think that the last level
I think it was Gerald Ford or Nixon
devalued a dollar to that level in the
1970s that's where they hold gold on the
balance sheet right so the theory goes
and this is not something I came up with
this has been talked about by very
senior and seasoned um you know
financial markets analyst Scott Besson
is absolutely aware of of how this works
and to the point about Bitcoin strategic
Reserve if you if you read the bill by
Senator Lumis she explicitly States okay
how do I pay for this Bitcoin I want to
buy well I used the gold I revaluate a
different level and I spend the money
and I'll describe how that's done in a
second so everyone's kind of talking
about the same thing we United States
has all this gold it's held at an
artificially low price and so on an on
an accounting basis
the US Treasury unilaterally can decide
what the value of gold is on the fed's
balance sheet so Scott Besson wakes up
on January 21st and he say okay I need
to devalue the Dollar by a
lot okay I'm going to say that gold is
now worth $5,000 an ounce on my balance
sheet now for every think about $3,800
of revaluation of gold on the balance
sheet creates a uh a Deb a credit in the
treasury general account at the FED of
$1 trillion so tell me the amount of
spending that you want to have without
having to go to Congress and I'll tell
you the gold price and that is what the
treasury can do without input from
anyone else because the value of gold on
the fed's balance sheet is under the
complete purview of the Secretary of the
Treasury and so what happens the US says
okay well the gold is now I don't know
let got $10,000 an ounce and so now I've
created a few trillion dollars
of dollars that I can spend on whatever
it is that Trump and his team want to to
spend money on so what have I done I've
T the amount of gold hasn't changed but
I've created a bunch of more dollars in
an accounting fashion and I'm spending
them into the global economy so I've
increased the amount of dollars in the
world gold pric is the same the gold
quantity is the same therefore I've
devalued the dollar now versus every
other country in the world
now the dollar is much weaker through
this gold channel it's weaker than the
Yuan it's weaker than the Yen it's
weaker than the Euro those are the three
you know China Japan Germany three
largest exporting countries so if I am a
manufacturer and now you know the three
major places where I would have located
a facility it's way more expensive to do
so to export to the world I guess I got
to come to America and deal with Trump
and his team because the dollar has now
been devalued and guess what Bessa
didn't have have to call a single
foreign Finance secretary Minister and
discuss with them what he's going to do
or get them to agree it happens
automatically because now the US
government says gold is worth you know
five 10,000
$15,000 an ounce how high Could It Go
who knows uh Luke groman another
financial analyst he has a chart I don't
know where it is uh and it's the
percentage of gold as a the amount of
gold that's a percentage of the amount
of liabilities of the FED in the 1980s
versus today and so they went back to
where gold was as a percentage of the
overall liability base as gold as the
asset liabilities are the amount of
dollars in in in existence you would do
about a 14x rise in Gold so that's like
$40,000 an ounce in Gold do I think
that's GNA
happen I don't know who knows probably
not but that's just instructive of the
of where we're going from 2600 $2700 an
ounce to 51 15 $20,000 an ounce and now
with these trillions of dollars okay if
Trump really believes in Bitcoin and
Bitcoin is the new hardest currency and
he wants to set up the United States to
have you know the best balance sheet of
any Sovereign Nation then yes he can use
some of those trillions of dollars and
go in the market and buy gold but it
could also use it as tax breaks or you
know cheaper health care or whatever it
is they decide to do but the best point
the best part is it happens immediately
you don't need Congressional approval
your boys who are in charge of these
departments can do this stuff
unilaterally without talking any foreign
counterparts or anyone in the Deep State
who would sort of oppose oppose what
they're doing so that's why this talk
about strategic Bitcoin Reserve is nice
but what you really should be talking
about is how and I this is the theory
that I have and you know I have my
portfolio geared to it there will be a
massive devaluation of the dollar versus
gold in the first half
2025 okay and as an individual if that
happens
um do I similarly benefit from that does
gold as it's tra
to so if you don't there's no there's no
impact the dollar is weakened okay but
it wasn't like they did some crazy
tariff or something else to to get it
there Visa another country it's an
accounting Thing versus gold so if you
own gold great you've you've made you've
made a gain in Fiat in terms if you
don't ow gold uh you know sorry out of
lucky you didn't participate but it's
not like your life has changed in any
way shape or form you know right right
but way that you're talking about it0
pound be0 pound beef right right right
so beef priced in dollars no change but
I do hold gold so uh if this were to
happen then that it's not just some
magic trick on their balance sheet this
actually does impact the world it would
impact uh the amount of dollars I have
in Gold correct got it very interesting
uh would if they do this will they just
borrow against the gold that they have
or will they actually sell the gold to
create the dollar no there's there's no
that's the beauty of it there's nothing
it's literally because of how the
economics work the the accounting flows
in the government Gold's at $42 an ounce
now now obviously it's about $2,700 in
the free free market so just going to
where the spot price of gold is that
gets the government I think about $700
billion do of a credit so now the
treasury has an account at the Federal
Reserve called the the treasury general
account that's where government spending
occurs so when you pay the government
salaries or they hand out your you know
social security check or whatever it
comes from the fed's account the the
treasur account the FED then it goes to
the banking system like GP Morgan and
you know those sorts of banks that's how
it flows so number one the US government
doesn't need to sell any gold all that
says is I was saying gold is worth $42
an ounce I now say it's worth x x could
be 5,000 10,000
$15,000 in ounce and because I've now
created all these dollars accounting
basis because now I have this B massive
credit with the FED I've just created a
bunch of dollars and I can spend them on
whatever I want to spend them on so I've
just created all these dollars out of
thin air so that's why this is beautiful
because it requires no input from anyone
else other than Scott Besson at the
treasury who does what Trump says I need
weaker doll I need businesses coming
back to America he says gotcha buddy let
me just do this real quick and now the
dollar is the weakest currency out of
all of our trading compet um competitors
and so now companies on the margin are
going to want to put their Factory here
and Export either sell stuff in America
or export it around the world from
America and so when they say that
they're weakening the dollar they
specifically mean against gold is The
Benchmark yes and so by transitive
properties it'll weaken against the UI
the Euro and the Yen because they have
not moved their
Peg well there's not not not that Peg
I've just created s use the wrong word
they they also have uh a an amount that
they say uh an ounce of gold is this
many you on and they're not going to
create more money based on whatever it
is they what they think the price of
gold should be because they don't have
the reserve currency so right China
could do the same thing they okay well
we think Go's worth 100 million Yuan an
ounce we have all this Yuan and we can
go spend it great but you're not you
don't have an inbuilt demand for your
currency as much as you're trying um to
do more trade bilaterally in your own
currency great but at the end of the day
dollar is still what 60 something
percent of world trade or 70% whatever
it is so they have that have that de
demand that demand for the currency so
the US can devalue more than any other
country without suffering hyperinflation
and if you think about the major trading
partners of the US Germany Japan China
none of them are self-sufficient in
hydrocarbons the US can be it wants to
be none of them are self-sufficient in
food the US can be if it wants to be so
the us can go [ __ ] nuts with very
hyperinflationary policies with very
inflationary policies that would be
hyperinflationary in China Japan and
Germany they cannot do what the US can
do because they don't have the same
natural blessings as this fictional area
we call America
has very fair
uh okay talk to me about Bitcoin
security do you have any concerns Google
Willow announcement comes out I talked
to sailor about it he's not worried in
the slightest almost like why are you
bothering me with this question kind of
energy um what do you think is is there
so again I am not I'm not a
cryptographer the little bit that I've
read about this from people who way
smarter than me and who know this stuff
is that the type of calculations that
Google Willow can do is not is not
translated into being able to break shot
256 which is the encryption algorithm of
of Bitcoin and so until that happens
then we don't have anything to worry
about obviously you can always up in
change things within the network this
has been a perennial concern of oh if
quantum Computing therefore Bitcoin is
broken kind of thing and I am not
qualified to sit here and give all the
retorts to that but I think Andreas
Antonopoulos and some of very smart
people who understand this issue very
deeply have very easily debunked that
sort of line of thinking so Google
Willow is great we're upgrading our
ability to do calculations um in a
Quantum way is that affect the Bitcoin
encryption algorithm
no love it Arthur this has been
wonderful where can people follow along
with you so on X crypto haaz uh substack
crypto Haze as well and then come to the
various conferences around the world
where I speak I love man well enjoy this
alt season I'm sure it is going to be a
lot of fun and everybody at home if you
haven't already be sure to subscribe and
until next time my friends be legendary
take care peace if you like this
conversation check out this episode to
learn more at the time of recording
Bitcoin is over 100k and has been for
quite a while at this point so I think
the question of is Bitcoin real is dead
uh but now the question becomes how does
Bitcoin go from where we're at at a
little over 100k to the 13 million