Kind: captions
Language: en
almost all Communications is some form
of propaganda the human relation to
truth is very shaky we adapted to the
the printing press how do we adapt to
the Digital Universe and the AI Universe
coming right behind it why what is it
about this moment that is really pissing
people off our Elites are very panicky
they are not confident they're going to
be around that much
longer Martin we are living through a
moment unlike any other in modern
history by my estimation institutions
are collapsing trust and Leadership is
at an alltime low and narratives that
once held people's wrapped attention
literally holding Society together or
all falling apart um you wrote a book
about this called the Revolt of the
public now my audience doesn't just want
to understand the chaos they really want
to understand how to thrive in this
moment so uh if it works for you let's
start here what is the Major Force
that's shaping this Revolution and how
can people thrive in a moment where
truth is so fragmented well I mean that
was my job at CIA was to cover the media
of the world and it was an easy job
looking back on it I didn't think so at
the time one never think so it job is
easy but looking back at it it was an
amazingly easy job you know each country
had one or two either newspapers or like
with BBC would be a broadcast that were
authoritative and if the president
wanted to know okay
what are the Brit saying about this
policy you go to the BBC and or you what
are the French doing it you go to Leon
it was very easy and then all of a
sudden everything went haywire just
absolutely Haywire as the internet this
this gigantic uh tsunami of information
writing on you propelled by uh a digital
earthquake in the year
2001 information was produced that was
double double the volume of everything
that had preceded all the way back to
the cave paintings and the dawn of
culture year 2002 double 2001 and if you
chart it it kind of really looks like a
tsunami it's this incredible Spike at
that time I was sitting at a very high
Birch at CIA had a view of the entire
media of the world and I could see as
countries digitized as that tsunami
rolled around the world right behind it
there was was ever
increasing um levels of of of social and
political turbulence and this was
beginning in the oos all the way up to
when they finally sort of erupted out of
the digital world into the real world
with the Arab Spring and everything that
has followed since now do you think that
humans can only Thrive if they have a
limited amount of information being
projected to them from credible sources
I am not a norm maker I think humans can
Thrive under very many different
conditions you know we have lived in in
uh in the deserts and and and in um in
the Arctic uh and informationally it can
be the same you can live in an
overabundance or you can live with
scarcity it's just learning how to deal
with it and that is not something that
happens on a personal level it happens
on an Institutional level and it is not
something that happens overnight it
happens over decades and sometimes over
centuries How would you characterize
this moment as the institutions are
collapsing as we are left with no sense
of what is true or maybe even more
terrifyingly everybody thinks they know
what is true and it is no longer shared
um how would you characterize what
humans are like in this environment
we're essentially at the very early
stages of this colossal
transformation from uh the Industrial
Age which was very top down
very I talk you listen very I have the
information I'm W kronite and I'm G to
pass it on to you um or I'm the
president I'll give you a speech and and
reveal to you something new that you
haven't heard before to this new order
that doesn't even have a name yet so we
have no clue what's coming next so um
how how do we cope with it how do we
deal with it with a great deal of
confusion having said that I think what
you talked about truth to me has a
tremendously positive side I think I
think as an
analyst the question you always ask
yourself is what don't I know right you
think you know something and that that
scares me when I when I think I know
something I go I'm missing something
okay what don't I know about this
picture particularly if what you what
you think you
know conflicts with what your eyes are
telling you right you know there have
been all these analyses about Trump for
example and you go like
how can they live with this kind of a
cognitive dissonance so they say all
these things and you you know they call
him Hitler and you see him Frying french
fries in a McDonald's you go like this
doesn't make any sense you know I think
it's healthy for I think the the
Industrial Age dealt from Authority it
it was a moment of tremendous optimism
tremendous
elitism marked on expertise and and you
know going to the right schools and and
getting the the the write scientific
knowledge and so forth and it thought it
knew and when walti Kon I told you this
is the way it was on December 26 20124
you saluted and you said yes Walter
you're right why but we had no other way
of knowing otherwise the human relation
to truth is very shaky it's very shaky
it's not that it doesn't exist I'm not a
postmodernist I believe if a truck is
coming up at me and I can see it I'm not
gonna throw like postm modernize it away
I'm gonna get out of the way right so
but but that said what we know about
complex systems for example and and
Society is one every human being is one
um so what you know about yourself just
to put it that way is not very much is
not very much and I think it's healthy
if this new chaos makes us question you
know every time something comes up on TV
you say no oh that was alter so it must
be true no you go I I have no idea who
this person is that doesn't sound right
to me I'm not rejecting it and just
filing it away needs confirmation right
well that is the scientific method in
the end right is that you need you need
to have enough um Witnesses and and
enough circumstances in which the the
the the proposition gets stressed enough
that it either breaks down it's false or
it endures and you can say well it's
it's truth and even when it's true not
to get too philosophical is temporary
right because that the whole purpose of
science I mean science at one point um
believed that there was such a thing as
a vacuum in space it was impossible to
have vacuum well there is a vacuum in
space uh so truth advances but it has to
be understood it's a tiny little Advance
on this vast darkness of ignorance that
we carry around with us before I read
your book I had become obsessed with
this idea that we may need a limited
amount of information given to us I
don't think I was saying from on high
but certainly we were thriving more in
an environment that had a limited amount
of information such that we could all
construct a shared view of what is true
now the reason I think that that is
probably true is because of the
dispersion of intellect so you have
people at the top you have people that
all call right below so you've got the
elites you've got the almost Elites
you've got sort of the average person
you've got people that don't have the
cognitive horsepower to do what I think
you're proposing
and the reason that top down has done as
well as it has for as long as it has is
because uh like if you take religion as
the ultimate Pinnacle of top down a solo
God tells you act like this and life is
going to be good um and because it's
from my perspective human-made wisdom
that has lasted the test of time so if
you take that as a definition of
religion the wisdom that lasts over time
you get this hey think like this act
like this your life will be better
people believe it comes from God and so
they just do that thing and Society
hangs together and now we're seeing this
wrecking ball blast through everything
because of the preponderates the tsunami
of information as you were calling it
and I worry that because there are
people that don't have the intellectual
horsepower to make it because you have
people the sort of average band they
don't even want to think about it
because you have a layer above them that
are almost Elites and are probably
annoyed at the elites and and I think
this is a large part of the battle on
social media uh you now run into a
landscape where the people who just need
somebody because they don't want to
think about it or they don't have the
intellectual horsepower to deal with it
uh to have a model that works and
without that it seems like you're doomed
to repeat Arab Spring where you almost
have something and it collapses or
Occupy Wall Street you almost have
something and it collapses um please
prove me wrong oh I mean I I I think
there an element of Truth in that I
would just say um a couple of things uh
number
one no doubt when Adam and Eve looked
back over their shoulders and saw that
angel with a fiery sword they thought
gez life was so much better back then
you know we could talk to God directly
and you know we could walk around naked
and nobody cared
um well they had bitten the Apple they
had bitten the apple and you can't go
back all right so so we have bitten the
Apple we cannot go back we are now where
we are and we have to deal with this
structure of information that is before
us and that is rolling I mean you have
artificial intelligence just coming
around the corner um and I will tell you
another another aspect of that that
contradicts what you said somewhat and
it's a story I or or kind of a parable I
have borrowed from a person I respect a
lot Antonio Garcia Martinez imagine you
got into a time machine and went back to
the 30 Years
War uh 30 Years War as you know was the
most destructive War Europe has ever
known including World War II per capita
it decimated Germany it took generations
for the population to come halfway back
up to what it had been and why did the
30 years or what happen well they had
been a previous tsunami of information a
previous shift in the landscape it's
called the printing press
so if you went to the typical man on the
street and the 30 Years War I said what
do you think of the printing press that
person would have said it is the most
horrible destructive conflictive insane
thing look over here these people are
coming out of their church and they have
a Creed and look over there those people
are coming out of their church and they
have a printed Creed and there are six
words are different and they're killing
each other because of those six words
they can now see the words where whereas
before was like who cares nobody knows
right
um the 30 Years War would never have
happened without the printing press and
this man of the street would have said
tear it up destroy it get rid of it okay
now we know today because of you know
time has pass that it was the most
liberating Communications invention ever
I mean the internet is going to have to
work real hard to come up to what the
printing press did it gave us the
American Revolution it gave us the
French Revolution most important Le gave
us a scientific revolution which would
have been totally impossible without a
printic press maintaining all the data
uh so scribes could mess it up um
so your idea that top down is good top
down is good if there's just one top but
there's 20 tops and they're all saying
I'm the top and they all have the means
of communication that explains to them
well this is why they're bad because
those six words are missing then you
have an even worse chaos we are not
anywhere near 30 Years War level of of
uh disorder or violence or or War so we
are doing way better than what the
printing press brought upon us now if I
were to append that with the word yet
we're not doing as bad yet would that
feel accurate or do you think that this
is more of a moment of dissolution where
instead of rallying together we're
actually all about negating tearing
things apart how do how do we adapt to
the structure we adapted to the the
press how do we adapt to the Digital
Universe and possibly the the the AI
Universe coming right behind it how do
we do it there are many many ways of
doing it my concern one of the major
reasons I wrote the book is that at the
end of this very destructive process it
is destructive no question about it a
whole system is being torn down it's
like the airplane is being replaced in
mid-flight it's not an easy thing to
happen um but at the end of that I would
like to see democracy what we call
democracy our system of government uh
with all its rights and protections be
at the end and there's no reason why it
can't be and it cannot be it shouldn't
it could be enhanced because when you
think of the great big hierarchical
structures the mass structures of the
Industrial Age they're not particularly
Democratic you know the Republican party
or the Democratic party in it's
classical day they were not particularly
Democratic they got told who to vote for
right eight guys sat in a room picked
picked a nominee and everybody got told
that's your man and you voted for that
person right and some variety of that is
still happening today I was going to say
that sounds pretty familiar yeah a
little more chaotic perhaps but uh it's
still happening so the uh digital world
is a flatter world it's you're always
going to need hierarchy I think we could
dispense with hierarchy that would be
utopian and and counter actually to
human nature um but it can be much
flighter hierarchy and you can see the
top more and you could trust it better
because you can see what's going on
there's not this this opacity that that
Industrial Age Mass hierarchies have so
it could be I'm saying that I'm saying
it's going to be the potential for a
more democratic form of government that
utilizes the internet to basically piped
into public opinion on a on a real
realterm basis it's there and there's no
reason on Earth why it can't happen all
right I want to quote you back to you I
think this is a pretty interesting quote
given what you just said uh the un
bundling of Truth makes the business of
democracy ever more difficult to conduct
as we fly ever farther apart we can only
hear each other when we scream the
result I'll repeat has been paralysis
for democratic government so um is it
merely an act of faith that we will get
to the other side of this or do you see
an actual path the future is is is an
impenetrable Veil right I'm not going to
pretend that I know what what's going to
happen I never make predictions I worked
for CIA prophecy was its business model
and what tomorrow looked like yesterday
which Believe It or Not happens more
than you think then they were right but
what the president wanted was
discontinuities and every discontinuity
CIA got wrong and I learned never make a
prediction complex systems are
inherently
unpredictable um so let me let me
approach this end from different angle
let me finish out because I I want to
get to the we are on an early stage and
this the quote you mentioned is 100%
accurate I think has gotten even worse
since I wrote that but I'm describing a
stage in what is maybe a century long
process maybe
more yeah that is terrifying uh
something that I remind myself
frequently is while the long Arc of
History really does seem to bend toward
Justice it does not care about any
individual life or generation it will
just thrash them the 30 Years War being
a very prime example uh let me approach
this from a slightly different angle you
said something earlier about um
adaptation and so please know as I ask
my questions I'm far less interested in
you predicting the future though if you
have a prediction I will take it uh but
more knowing my audience cares about how
do I navigate this moment well so if we
take that concept of adaptation how does
one adapt to what's going on now I see
the battle right now being between the
sort of Sam harrises of the world who I
love Sam Harris and I think he's such a
brilliant thinker but the way that he's
coming at the world is very much we need
a new set of Elites and they need to be
able to put some constraints on what
people are saying and talking about
otherwise you're going to get Donald
Trump's forever and it's just Madness
spiraling off into infinity and then you
get the Elon musks of the world and I I
think there's no coincidence to the fact
that these two briefly were going at
each other publicly Elon Musk who
represents something far more I'm going
to buy X I'm going to make sure that
people can say whatever they want to say
and make it freeing that that grand
collision between the path we should be
adapting down is either control or the
path that we should be adapting down is
uh opening things up and and maybe
letting nature run more of its course I
believe if I'm not misquoting you you've
referred to as a prologue to
Freedom um and so this idea of you yeah
a prologue to the an an ideology of
Freedom versus the ideology of control
that we have now so without predicting
where this goes what do you think is the
right path that people ought to to be
pursuing I am a a free speech absolutist
I I come from Cuba okay uh I was born
there and when you start
constraining you start by doing it for
very Noble reasons you want to protect
ignorant people from falsehood and from
making mistakes and then suddenly you
realize what I I can also you know that
guy over there he keeps yelling about
how bad I am you know he's sort of lying
about me even when it's not a complete
Li so he should be censored too and and
you know I'm such a great person then
they never get somebody should anybody
doesn't say I'm a great person they get
censored too the human nature of being
what it is look our founding fathers
knew this perfectly well they put that
first amendment there for a very
brilliant reason we're so protected
thank thank goodness because of that um
so then you have a free-for all Freedom
means freefor all right now so how do
you deal with that I mean part of what
one has to get over is the industrial
mindset that you know uh this is true or
false this is false or this you need
platonic truth is to be arrived at and
it can only be arrived at as you keep
saying through Authority some Authority
somehow or another is able to pipe into
the cosmos and and squeeze truth you
know platonic truth out of it and then
the rest of us thankfully receive it
from that person that that's gone that
doesn't happen so what you have to
decide is don't look at it in terms of
Truth and falsehood look at in terms of
what is this message about who is
sending it okay what was the intent in
sending this message does it look like
that intent has worked did it backfire
what was the intended audience of this
message why that audience and not
another who's behind the uh um the
author is it just a guy on a Blog is
there some millionaire paying him to do
it my friend Andre Mir says the most
interesting news is fake news and the
most interesting part of fake news is
the fake part because if I'm trying to
tell you something that I think is true
and I happen to be wrong well that's
just an error that's neither here nor
there but if I'm consciously lying to
you I mean if I were you I would say
well that's fascinating why is saying
this thing which I know to be false to
me what does he expect to get from that
what's behind all this we need to look
at the information um set this vast vast
information set which needs to be mapped
in some ways um the way that a
propaganda analyst would do because
that's what it is almost all
Communications is some form of
propaganda I don't know if you have
children but if you do listen to
yourself yeah well okay I was studying
this at CIA when I was my children were
like early early teenagers or something
like that I suddenly realized that
everything everybody says to anybody
particularly inside one's family is
persuasion attempts at persuasion the
the mildest kindest you're trying to
persuade so everybody's trying to
persuade everybody understand that to
begin with other words don't look at it
in terms of black and white truth
falsehood authoritative and and
integrity and false and dirty Putin back
here look at in terms of what's going on
why are people trying to persuade others
why lies why would somebody lie to
persuade who gets persuaded does anybody
ever get persuaded separate conversation
I don't believe that happens persuasion
is the hardest thing to do ever okay
most of us believe that you can't
persuade we were born that way
governments absolutely believe they can
persuade uh and dictatorial governments
and sometimes democratic governments
think they can persuade with lies we'll
get back to the conversation with Martin
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now let's get back to the show so
understand what goes underneath the
information and above the information
and the audience and you suddenly are
much wiser than you are by going from
some little scream coming at you and you
have to say was it true or false and if
it's true then this if it's false then
that and that's it it's a much more
complex process I don't think it's a bad
thing I think I would have done people
did that propaganda analyst did that in
the old industrial world where where
life was a lot simpler um and I think
you got at what was going on in that
world in terms of information much
better that by just going theal Walter
konai it's konai therefore its true um
syndrome so that would
be and and I think this is something
needs to be taught very young at school
you know instead of the promise teachers
of course have that well I'm telling
truth and now you I want to protect them
from falsehoods no no you you want to
make them um um robust you you want to
make them so that they Thrive from from
a very chaotic environment they get
information out of it that a simpler
environment wouldn't get wouldn't give
them so that's the way I would go about
it all right so as a free speech
absolutist what do you think about Elon
musk's purchase of Twitter I mean I
think it prevented the greatest
runaround on the first amendment in my
very very long life in the United States
of America okay I think it prevented
that when he said he was going to buy
Twitter the blowback was so um
disproportionately huge people were
saying things like it's G to destroy
your democracy if if somebody allows
things to be said on Twitter and it
really perplexed me all right I believed
at that time that it was kind of like a
bunch of Elites who kind of in a
conformis ways had all agreed their
words we're not going to use there are
people whose opinions we want to kind of
Shadow band or whatever or just silence
um and it never occurred to me never
occurred to me that the United States
government was behind it with the
Twitter files and then the work that
people like Matt taibi and Barry Wise
and Michael shellenberger did
um it came out that no the government
was absolutely the beginning of this
thing it was a a governmental structure
that was erected very surreptitiously
very behind our backs um to make sure
that certain people didn't get the
Resonance of the of the web it began
with um with covid the pandemic but as I
say it quickly became well you know
we're preserving democracy by silencing
Trump and his allies and then it was
like from there on it was like anybody
who dis you're Russia if you're against
the ukra Ukraine war then you probably
Russian St so the whole range of normal
everyday sometimes um as Mark zukerberg
recently said um parody sites right
parody sites that were just making fun
of things got uh either kicked out of of
social media or Shadow
band yeah it's uh it it has been eye
openening to say the least um Elon has
been saying something recently that's
really freaked a lot of people out in
the media which is you are the media now
meaning the users of the
xplatform uh what do you take from that
like what what is that Collision why
would the media be up in arms about the
people being the media yeah I mean I I'm
not really big of slogans and I think um
Elon like any really really good
internet person is just like a fountain
head of memes and slogans and what not
it's like a geyser you know um but I
think what you encounter there is the
old
world looking at the new world the old
world you had a press pass and man this
press pass got you into places nobody
else could go to and you were connected
to these prestigious uh institutions The
Washington Post the New York Times CBS
News um and that made you a special kind
of person and now here's this clown Elon
Musk who maybe he can build a rocket but
what the hell does he know about media
uh saying no you are the media anybody
is a media anybody can say anything so
any ignorant person can say whatever
ignorant thing they're going to say and
that is somehow equivalent to me with my
press pass who have just talked to the
president how can that even be possible
and they're angry they're angry it's I
mean it's it they're dying out by the
way this is this is a slow process of
what you hear all those screams that you
hear are are um the death Agony of of uh
a whole set of of media instruments that
cannot possibly survive uh just for
question of business model into the
digital
age the digital age uh it is a a
fascinating shift that is happening and
to be a part of it is certainly uh
bizarre not something that I ever
thought would happen however the very
interesting thing that seems to be
coming out of it is when you unlock the
floodgates what comes out is anger why
what is it about this moment or whatever
that is really pissing people off there
are structural reasons for the
anger um I give them to you but then I'm
gonna back off and say well maybe not um
when you are when you are like you and
me right here we can just talk all right
I mean we're in Zoom there's two little
boxes me and my my box and your box we
can talk all we want to now let's say
there's 300 million boxes and we're all
talking at the same time who's going to
be heard the person with the absolutely
loudest voice what is a really good way
to be loud to be angry that mean it's a
fight for attention Okay and I um and I
think structurally you so if I there's
300 million and there you are and there
I am and I say well I hate you you're
you're a communist they say well you're
a fascist all right and suddenly these
three 350 boxes start to align behind us
oh he's the fastest group we're the good
people uh he's the Communist group we're
the good and suddenly you're Gathering
attention by screaming and yelling and
doing that that is structurally stuck in
um in the very fabric of the internet um
it's it's h what Jonathan hey the social
psychologist having stolen the phrase
from me uh calls the Tower of Babel uh
which is true we suddenly all speaking
different languages and yelling at each
other having said that it's as much a
rhetorical post as it is a real anger
for example Elizabethan gentleman wrote
sonnets to their girlfriends right well
I'm pretty sure that that's not the way
they spoke it was expected of them you
know you you have somebody you're wooing
or you want to woo or or want to get get
on with you have to be a good poet and I
think so anger is the I think
anger is is the rhetorical post if you
want to get on you want to have and
Trump the the 2016 cira Trump was a
master of that game okay so you
basically troll somebody they yell back
at him the people who hate the the
people who are yelling get behind them
sudden he's a leader because he's the
one who sparked the the controversy and
the crowds behind the two groups get
bigger and bigger but he's standing in
front because he's the one who started
it all right it's a pose it's a pose
think there are many angry people I
think there have always been many angry
people this is just an era where
Communications are expected to be angry
at certain um like for politics because
otherwise nobody hears you it's it's the
accepted rhetorical post I tell you what
I I always tell the story of the lap
laptop on the
window I look at my laptop where I'm
looking at right now and everybody's
fighting everybody everybody's yelling
it's the end of the world as we know it
right and you kind of scratch your head
and go how can we how can we fix this
and then I lift my my eyes a little
Beyond where uh my laptop is there is a
window and in the window it's usually
open and um I could see my neighbors
walking their dogs and jogging and the
children come along playing ball and I'm
going like okay this doesn't look like
the end of the world to me or we need to
wrench our eyes from the laptop and look
and I think as a Cuban it's easy for me
to
been had my childhood experience in a
country that was uh really really
troubled really troubled when you you
know the the streets were you could have
a mob out there or something um and
instead when I look over there at the
Garden are clipped you know the worst
thing about it is you know the
lawnmowers every always got a lawn mower
I mean that's the the big complaint
around here so
it's you have to look at American
society and I think I mean the internet
is is correct the tsunami is correct the
institutions the old industrial
institutions are being
battered and are are in some parts you
know falling to pieces um
but do not despair there's still a whole
lot that's sane and healthy out there
between us it just happens outside of
the laptop which among the most terrible
things that the internet has is the fact
that can call you all kinds of names and
you can't do anything about it if if I
you and I were in the same room and I
called you all kinds of name I'd get a
broken nose so I'd be damn sure not to
call you names in the internet I can
call you whatever I want and you may not
even know who I am much less you know
get even with me so there is a lot of
incentives to you know be that angry
person to say the extreme thing uh but
that's the internet and that's there's a
difference between the two that the one
word the Two Worlds are connected and
and more ever more deeply connected um
so I that's my my
Proviso all right so what given all that
what does it tell us that Trump got
reelected is it just that he's so good
at cutting through the noise or does he
represent the anger um I'm a big
believer that the while it's not the sum
total of the anger and frustration but I
believe this is an economic uh
phenomenon I know that you don't um so
I'd love to hear how why you think Trump
got reelected if economics is not what's
driving this I mean economics always
plays a part of everything so you can't
completely dismiss it but you know when
you look at all the uh like the year
2019 right before the um um pandemic it
was like the peak Revol to the public
year okay they were like there were like
I remember correctly at least 25
Major Street insurgencies and the thing
that I found Most Fascinating was some
of that was in Democratic countries some
of it was in pretty tough dictatorships
like Algeria for example some of it was
in very poor
countries Sudan uh some of it was in
very wealthy countries like France so I
don't think either the Revolt of the
public which is basically the
uh
sociopolitical sort of label that I give
to the the effects of that tsunami I
don't think it's primarily a cry for uh
democracy and I don't think it's
primarily an economic phenomenon and and
when you look at at uh the economics of
it it is never the marginalized or the
poor or the bottom of society or the
discriminated that um that take to the
streets it is the educated it is the um
Children of the elites sometimes the
children of the middle class sometimes
uh but it is never ever uh the poor or
or or the economically marginalized that
that that take to the streets now Trump
I mean explaining
Trump I could probably make a billion
dollars if I could explain Trump I I he
is an inexplicable thing um he is a
political mutant I don't know if you
ever read um the Isaac Asimov books on
the Foundation this a science fiction
stuff so but I know of it but I haven't
read it yeah I mean basically the thing
called psycho history where
scientifically they can predict the
broad outlines of history and
civilization is dying so they plan a re
rebirth b a short circuit the Dark Ages
the rebirth but they get this one guy
and they call him the mule because he's
he's a mutant he's completely not you
could not have plan for him all right
well um Trump is a mule I mean he's a
mutant he he is this weird um comes from
many different worlds comes from the
business world comes from the popular
cultur um world which I think is mainly
what what he is uh and now he comes into
the political world and injects his
popular culture sort of circus
atmosphere um that that um I think the
elites who who have dwell in in our high
politics hate because it's certainly
like this is not the way things are
supposed to be um it it is has inspired
some of the most bizarre and I think and
by the way I never liked the man
particularly um but I mean he just
struck me as well he's got this and he's
got that but no he's like pure evil he
is adol Hitler he is a fascist now if
you have any knowledge of what those
words mean you you really ought to go to
therapy because they connect absolutely
not at all with the person Donald Trump
or the politician Donald Trump so um do
you think that Trump is a dictator or
fascist in the making that's always the
push back that I get when I say bro look
at Hitler and what he did it's insane
then people's push back is going to be
well compare Hitler you know uh right
after World War I compared to where
Trump is at in the beginning of his
career like you just need to give more
time and he's on that slippery slope the
guy 78 years old come on name me a
dictator that started at the age of 78
dictatorship is a hard job you start
young usually in your 30s or 40s I
practically every dictator that I can
think of started either in his 30s or
40s um fil cter was 33 when he took over
Lenin was in his 40s yeah I mean it's a
young man's game look at look at the
revolutionaries both in our war you know
the the um um Constitutional Convention
for example or uh the convention in
France during the revolution these were
young people people okay these are all
young people Napoleon was I think in his
late 20s when he started to take over so
the idea that they can be a um a
dictator Serv of 78 plus okay I'll give
you one more reason and then this is
just a boring subject
um one of the things you have to have to
be a dictator is command of a powerful
institution that can be your own private
Army like Hitler had you know with the
SAA or um can be the real army or it
could be the Secret Service um or it
could be for Stalin for example it was
he he got to appoint everybody in the
Communist party so everybody they going
appointed was a loyalist um but you need
a strong institution that you can then
turn against the others and say well I'm
gonna overall all the institutions with
this one or this these two that I own
the institutions hate doal TR there
isn't a single institution that likes
them none so um between those two things
78 years old an entertainment guy that's
number three uh and and also the fact
that it it's um it would be impossible
for him for example to tell to tell the
military go go shoot at my opponents in
in that in that protest go shoot him go
kill them all right uh they wouldn't do
it they would not do it uh it would be
impossible for him to tell the FBI go
arrest my enemies they would not do it
so how could he become through what
process could he be and he doesn't have
private Army to put it mildly I mean you
look at those um I finally this this um
this election cycle I yeah had never
really looked at any of his his you know
shows that he gives is a
combination um like State Fair and Big
Tent Revival meeting or something I kind
of look at it the people that go to that
are like you know middle class middle
age you know they're having it's kind of
like a party like great big party he's
not organizing an army out of that cowd
okay so um so I I to me that's just uh
it says more about the people who claim
these things that it says about Donald
Trump what do you think it says about
them I think it says them that they are
um living in a world in a house of
mirrors they see their own reflection
and they think it's reality and um and
they absolutely and I'll give Trump
credit on this he he's kind of a crazy
guy okay he does some strange things but
he has this superpower of making his
opponent 10 times crazier than he is so
they say the completely over the top
things and they do these completely over
the top things like try to censor uh the
government you try to censor uh the web
and and trying to arrest him has never
happened before you a former president
you know being indicted on a pretty
blatantly political case um he just
drives them completely over the top and
it tells you that our Elites are very
panicky it tells you primarily that they
are panicky they are not confident
they're going to be around that much
longer that's very interesting you have
referred to if I have the words correct
you referred to Obama as the chief
negator uh that might not be the exact
phrase that you use but it's certainly
directionally correct we'll get back to
the show in just a moment but first
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I think a lot of people think that this
all started with with Trump you've
referred to Trump as a symptom is Obama
a symptom who who is patient zero I mean
it's not question of symptoms it's a
question of somebody who who adapted to
the system right somebody who saw what
was in front of him and except to
pretending that the year is 1950 he said
oh wait this is 2008 this is not 1950
he the initial election this is his
second election the re-election campaign
was different but his initial election
was very powerful use of the internet in
very powerful ways um spontaneous
support you know that the Obama girl
that portrait of of his that is you know
so aspirational looking this wasn't
stuff that his campaign paid for this
kind of bubbled up from below and that's
the Revolt of the public bubbling up
from below his he was a community
organizer Community organizers look
around and see things that are faulty
and bad and point them out to some
higher authority yell and scream and say
Community we need to protest about this
and then they protest and then
supposedly some higher authority uh
comes and fixes it um after 2010 when he
lost basically his governing majority
big time that's what he did he he was a
president of the United States and he
was constantly pointing out things that
were wrong with the United States right
he would talk to the to a women's group
and say your your rights are about to be
taken away from you he he would you know
talk to to a a black black audience to
say you more or less the same thing uh
except of course there was no higher
authority so he he there is in the web
culture and the revolts of the public a
tremendous um you know and again for
structural reasons tremendous power of
negation of denial rejection repudiation
that is never uh counterbalanced by
proposing an alternative you know the
the um uh or organizer never felt he had
to propose an alternative just like look
here's a bad thing you're the government
you fix it and Obama was a master of
that and I think he was reelected
because people many people thought yeah
he is on our side and he he was you know
was kind of like you know Stick it to
the Man but you are the man you know he
was the man but he was sticking it to
the Man somehow in a very credible way
for for the
voters all right you have um you've
talked a lot about
uh that you don't make predictions you
don't know where things are going to go
but as you look at this um and Trump as
a phenomenon you've said that the
government is founded on this initial
sin of acting like they can solve all of
our problems knowing that do you think
that what Trump is trying to do by
limiting the scope of the government by
trying to get rid of the quote- unquote
deep state is he going to make any
progress or do you think that there's
just a reality to be faced that the
government cannot solve the problems
that people care about right now yeah I
mean it's pretty funny because he this
potential dictator is you know
anti-regulation and and wants to sh
drain the swamp by closing down whole
whole chunks of the government but he is
an old guy okay and when he talks he
says I will solve your problem I will do
this I will achieve that I will do the
other he has always talked that way even
when it's blatantly OB is that the
problem it's not really a problem it's a
condition that can't possibly be changed
except through a long long process of
evolution he doesn't care he will say it
so um I don't know I don't know how it's
gonna turn out he's got a big fat Target
I have to say coming after the Biden
Administration that did so many bizarre
and unprecedented things he's got a big
fat Target he can go negation on all
that stuff he can basically burn that
Harvest to the ground and um and he
would be doing a good thing uh now
whether he replaces it with with a a
different system what we need of course
is a reorganized you know um
reconfigured federal government we sort
of did this in the early 20th century we
reconfigured the federal government to
fit the mass Information Age now we need
to kind of do the same thing for for the
digital age I callor me skeptic I I the
best thing he has done in that regard is
he's bringing in a whole bunch of young
Buccaneers who's got his his uh cabinet
is some like 20 years younger than his
first cabinet back in 2016 and those
guys have some of them are gonna be
hanging around and maybe they will have
what it takes to get us there it's a
long
process no doubt so as you look at the
you've said that so many things have
modernized but the government is really
struggling to go digital
what do you think is going to be the
role of AI you've got Elon Musk
obviously closely tied to the government
building an AI company um do you think
AI is going to help or hurt is it just
going to flood more information what's
what are
the what does that look like I I have no
idea I have no idea and and it would be
rank speculation but you know rank
speculation is fun so I I'll give you
some um um I mean you could have such an
amazing world with AI right you can have
a farmer that tells AI
okay this is your schedule for watering
my plants this and the AI goes out there
and hits all the right buttons and it
gets done right you can have a child
that has a tutor that knows all the
information in the world and it's it it
can be tailored to the child's interests
or the child's capabilities and so forth
is the world's greatest tutor so that
that child will no longer thinks
information of something that gets
crammed into your head you know by
teachers you know in a painful process
but it's something that you discover
together with a tutor there's many
amazing things that can happen with AI
will they happen or or will it um I mean
I'm not a the Doom the doomsayers I I
scratch my head about I don't quite
understand all all the doomday Doom
Doomsday scenarios with AI are um in my
opinion but it could go bad I mean it
could go bad in many different ways the
worst it could go for me is if the
government gets a monopoly or basically
puts on regulations that only rich and
powerful people can play with it we
should probably put it out there for as
many people to play with that's the way
you know it's G to be their Winan
process and the more that you can have
people who are trying to adapt to it and
exploit it uh the sooner we can get to
where we want to be with with
AI all right so many people in my
audience are in the age group of doers
people that are going to make the very
fabric of our society going forward um
when you think about what the right
approach for them is one thing that
you've talked about are Charter cities
and I believe you know uh baly shrina
vason who talks about Network States
both of which seem to take this idea of
people need to compete for the citizens
that it needs to be way smaller um if
you were going to give us that that like
hey this is probably a path to at least
explore um what would you tell us about
Charter cities the idea of network
States well I
know Network States better than Charter
cities Charter cities are you know
they're at the mercy of the political
climate Network state is totally
speculative so they're just at the mercy
of balaji's enormous brain U and I think
and I think it it's a what he does is a
very
tremendously necessary thing which is
push the possibilities to their absolute
limit all right my humble opinion there
will never be Network States but what do
I know um you explain to people that
might not know yeah Network States
they're like discontinuous they use uh
you know cryptocurrency and they they
basically that's the the bond is you
some sort of
cryptocurrency uh agreement of how you
govern yourself but it wouldn't be
necessarily one place it would be over
many places uh you could have the same
people so it would be like in the
internet the internet has his
communities of interests the people
could be anywhere well it would be like
that only for real it would be like a
country right so it would be a community
that ruled itself along certain
interests um I mean that's a fascinating
concept is not an impossible concept I'm
say that's not going to happen but given
the reality that stand in the way of
that it probably not but it it makes
your pushes your brain outward to think
about well how much of that I mean you
can have very massive communities that
govern themselves to some extent um like
the old religious communities for
example um according to certain rules
that they have made up but that probably
may happen at some point uh where do you
see any flashes of the way forward in
what Switzerland does where it's really
down at the regional level or even what
Estonia is doing where it's sort of one
nation under the internet um yeah is
there anything in those that we can take
away yes and both I mean I wrote
Somewhere In the book that uh because
everything is fractured so much you know
we're now completely um in our but what
I always say is um the old Mass world
for example the mass audience that I
belong to when we watched Walter konai
together that was like the entirety of
the United St