Kind: captions
Language: en
Peter AA welcome back to the show thank
you back for having me Tom absolutely my
pleasure uh let me ask what is it about
Modern Life that is suddenly shortening
life
expectancy well I mean I think it's an
interesting question right because most
of what's in Modern Life has actually
increased life expectancy um but I think
what you're referring to is over the
past uh five to 10 years in the modern
world in the developed World we've seen
kind of a slight plateau uh and not just
a plateau to but actually a downtick for
the past five or six years even outside
of Co so if you take Co out of it is it
true that we are living shorter uh the
answer is yes but it's it's a bit of a
statistical issue um here's what it is
uh men who are aged 30 to 60 are dying
at too high a rate and it is now
dragging down average life
expectancy so just as 300 years ago
average life expectancy was really short
a big part of the drag was that too many
women and babies were dying during child
birth and when that happens you just
drag down the whole population average
so what's happening today is too many
men call it age 20 to 60 are dying uh
and the most common cause of death
that's increasing that are what we call
deaths of Despair so that's suicides and
overdoses and um that is having a
significant enough drag now on on
average life expectancy of people in the
United States unfortunately I can't
speak to this in other countries I'm not
as familiar with the data in Europe or
Australia um but I can tell you that in
the United States that's what's
happening okay yikes uh that actually
oddly enough I try to predict the
answers before I ask the questions uh
that isn't the answer I was expecting so
um suicide and overdose okay so take
some swags here as somebody who's
thought a lot about mental health it was
in your book um
what is going on where where are we
disconnecting in the way especially men
are living their life in modernity which
has brought us so many amazing things
but to your point something has tipped
if you had to aggregate some of the
biggest factors what are they so at the
risk of just disclosing that this is not
an area where I consider myself an
expert so now I'm speaking hopefully
less as an expert and more just as a a
kind of consumer of information and and
someone who lens to experts I think what
I would say is um there's there's been a
little bit of isolation of men um
there's been a little bit of um a sense
that you know maybe men are becoming
less connected to their sense of purpose
um and as such this is
producing uh you know behaviors in men
that are ultimately harmful right so so
one of the things that would result from
everything I just said is basically a
need to sort of mask pain and in many
ways um if you think about the rise in
the use of opioids as an example which
is the biggest driver of what I just
said a second ago so opioid use is the
biggest driver of uh what we call
accidental poisoning or accidental
overdose um and that's been by far the
largest group of deaths that have risen
in um in in the entire category of
accidental deaths right so it's not that
more people are d in car accidents right
it's deliberate self harm suicide and
then unintended self harm which is uh
overdose although you could argue that
that's slow suicide or what someone like
Paul kti has called
parasuicide paru so what yeah meaning a
behaviors that are kind of adjacent to
Suicide so so you know you asked the
question through the lens of modernity
um I think mity has been with us for a
while I don't know if there's something
from a technology perspective that's
making that worse so for example we know
I think with I think a reasonable degree
of certainty that social media has some
harm on mental health and a lot has been
written about its negative effect in
particular on adolescent girls them
being more susceptible maybe even than
adolescent boys or men and women who
were out of adolescence um but there is
clearly something else that's going on
um with with with men probably again
with respect to purpose uh would be my
best guess that that is um leading to
some sort of pain that's resulting in
some sort of compensatory numbing
strategy um that that at least I think
plays a partial role in
this let me ask a question that'll get
at us the same topic but from an angle
that um maybe deeper into your
wheelhouse so if we were to take modern
medicine and we may need to Define what
I mean by that but I'll finish the
question first if we were to take modern
medicine back say 5,000 years and so hey
if you're out chucking Spears and uh you
know getting the antelope and dragging
it back and you get an infection we can
take care of that um if we brought that
apparatus but otherwise their lifestyle
did not change do you think we would
increase life expectancy beyond what it
is for Gen Z right now yeah so let me
make sure I understand your question
you're saying Peter um let's take
everything that modern medicine has to
offer medicine 2.0 specifically yes
let's take medicine 2.0 back to 3000
BC um make no other change uh which is a
complicated thing to imagine because
that also means you have to bring
electricity back and you have there's a
lot of things you have to bring back so
it's it's but let's just play it as a
thought experiment somehow you just
transport like alien doctors and
Medicine back to 3000 BC um yeah it's
interesting right because going back to
that point in time our life expectancy
was shy of 40 but as I said there were
largely three things that resulted in
such a drag on uh life expectancy the
first is the one I already alluded to so
uh infant mortality was enormous I don't
remember exactly the numbers of like one
out of every X number of babies and it
was a small number like maybe one out of
every four or five babies born the
mother Andor baby die Jesus full stop
now this is not that hard to believe for
anybody who's watched their you know if
you're listening to this and you're guy
if you've watched your wife go through
childbirth you can totally appreciate
this like my wife would have not
survived the birth of our daughter if
not for modern medicine absolutely full
stop so we would have lost both of them
for sure so you have a you have you have
a huge amount of humility for what
medicine has done to make child birth
safe secondly you have infections so you
know it was very easy to get an
infection and without any sort of
antibiotic you you didn't get too many
shots on goal there and then lastly
trauma so you know you got a big cut on
you you fell you broke a leg you broke a
hip you're done so those three things
alone basically wiped out our species
but not not to the point where we
couldn't procreate again enough of us
were able to still pass on our genes
before we died but life expectancy was
probably in the high 30s right there
were probably people who lived beyond
that if they managed to escape all of
those things but they you know we
weren't dying of chronic disease so I
guess what your question is getting at
is is is there something else in the
modern world that is so toxic that
despite all of the advantages of modern
medicine it's killing us and I think the
answer has to be yes right um so is the
amount of stress we're under beneficial
probably not it's probably a bit
maladaptive for many people especially
people who are you know on on you know
at the at the high end of it right
stress is kind of like an inverted
u-shape relationship between performance
and stress so low low low levels stress
are not very helpful they don't actually
we we we don't have the motivation to do
anything so you have to have some stress
some drive but for for any of us at some
point that becomes really unproductive
and you start to you know kind of spiral
in in your response to stress you you
can't even multitask anymore um and
sometimes that is all self-imposed and
sometimes that is imposed by the world
around you right you have too many
things in your life you know you you you
got a job you you're working three jobs
to try to pay this and you're you know
you you have this bill that's due and
and all of those things are very
stressful and they're purely external
and then other times you could be in
your shoes right where you're an
entrepreneur you don't have to worry
about paying bills but yet you're
imposing a ton of stress on yourself
because of who you are and your desire
to do something that um is above and
beyond what you're doing today so um I
think modernity enables a lot of that
because basically it changes what we
have to optimize for so 5,000 years ago
we were really only optimizing for a few
things we had to find shelter we had to
find food we had to procreate and we had
to be safe those were about that was
really it there really wasn't a lot of
self-actualization going on at least we
don't have really much evidence that it
was that probably started a little bit
later on um but 5,000 years ago it's not
really clear that there was much of that
going on certainly 10,000 years ago I
would I think I'd be comfortable saying
there was none of that going on or at
least not enough of that that it
mattered basically natural selection was
the force that was driving us yeah that
that is the lens through which I look at
a lot of this is what would have been
selected for so um when talking to
people in a modern context so my life is
divided into entrepreneurship and
mindset so I get people that come to me
with mindset stuff and a lot of times
I'm like this is just a
maladaptive response to the modern world
where the very first time this occurred
to me was at awareness Technologies the
first company that I got involved with
and I remember thinking dude some people
just need to be chased by a lion like
the the way that they are approaching
their lives is so bizarre that they're
uh majoring and minor things and when
you don't have to worry about your
survival when you um aren't looking left
and right and being like yo I need you
to keep me from getting eaten by
something you can afford to isolate
which then has all these knock on
effects but it isn't maybe immediately
apparent that this is going to be
problematic um you don't have already
made meaning and purpose because when
you have a child and you're like yo I
have to make sure this thing lives and
everything is trying to kill it um all
of the sudden you're you're having to
manufacture this stuff yep now I am a
hyper responder to the modern world so
for me I'm a city bther not a forest
bather like uh I love building things I
love being around a lot of people and
yet thoroughly enjoy isolation so it's
like I I am just built for this moment
uh however I have the what I can feel
like are evolutionarily planted
algorithms running in my brain that are
saying if you don't do these things
you're going to feel profoundly um ill
at ease and so I've had to think a lot
about okay why would I need meaning and
purpose that's the big one right so why
would I continue to need meaning and
purpose I have all the money in the
world I never have to work again like I
should be on easy street but I was the
most paranoid at my most successful
because I realized so I uh my last day
of quest was a Monday and my first day
at impact theory was Tuesday because I
knew time off is not going to be the
thing that I need to lean into it's
going to be meaning and purpose and why
am I doing all of this and so having to
map out what those
evolutionary um algorithms are that are
running in my brain to keep me from
making mistakes became incredibly
important so one of them and this is the
lens that I view you you really affected
my vision of you for sure uh and how I
should be thinking about health in our
last episode where you got me to stop
thinking as much about diet and more
about
exercise how much do you think that
plays into this how much of this is a
problem with being sedentary sitting and
watching Netflix playing video games
which you know I love but I I always
want to know what's what's causing the
the
break how much of this is sedentary and
just not getting after it killing things
and dragging it
back probably quite a bit of it although
I think there's probably a lot of things
going on so the the modern world today
like if you if you could imagine going
back in time 10,000 years and bringing
one of our ancestors forward here today
ask yourself the question what would
they
recognize like let's go through things
so they were sitting in this room with
us so it's you me and one of our
ancestors sitting there so he would he
wouldn't know what these things are that
we're wearing like clothing like what
are these things on your face that have
glass on them like what is glass uh what
are these lights like everything in this
room would be everything in this world
would be so foreign can you imagine what
they would think when they looked out at
Los
Angeles um how long would that person
survive I I just I don't I don't I don't
I just don't think they could survive
very long at all despite the fact that
they would have everything given to them
they wouldn't be able to eat the food it
would probably I mean it would taste
really palatable but like it would be
very foreign to them like all these
things be foreign and yet from an
evolutionary perspective there's not
much of a leap between us so um when
when we sit here and and think about uh
everything you said which I which I
agree with by the way which is like this
idea that we and I put myself in this
category at the top of the list like
it's so easy to get worked up about
things that don't matter and if you
frame them through the lens of
survival you you you would take a step
back and laugh but it's also the
privilege we have to worry about stuff
that isn't life and death because of the
incredible Society we live in like
that's kind of the
the like if you're on the Titanic before
it hits the iceberg you can be worrying
about whether they're they're serving
Lobster or steak like that's that's
that's a reasonable thing to worry about
once you've hit the iceberg like there's
only literally one thing you're thinking
about am I going to get into a Lifeboat
and live or am I going to get in the
ocean and die and so I don't think we
should be too critical of the fact that
we are where we are I think what we need
to do is help realign like how do we
extract all the value from the modern
world because I don't think you want to
go back in time 5,000 years even if I
told you you could I just don't think
you'd want to I don't think anybody
would really want to if they understood
what it was like and how brutal the
world was I wouldn't want to go back in
time a hundred years years think about
100 years ago Tom what was going
on let's see we were five years it was a
roaring 20s so the world was looking
pretty good you're five years away from
the depression which was gonna you're
also only a decade out well depending on
how deep into the 20s from World War one
which was God awful right so yeah you
probably lost yeah right you had you had
this influenza pandemic that kills you
know whatever 10% of the population um
you've got you know World War II you're
you're five years away from falling off
a cliff for the next 10 to 12 years of
the world's worst depression that was
less than 100 years ago I mean would any
of us actually want to go back to that
no so I don't I don't have personally a
lot of nostalgia for that I I tend to
take the view of like yes there's a ton
of stuff about the world today that I
don't like but I'm
still I just can't believe how lucky I
am you know people sometimes have a hard
time realizing how lucky we are in this
sense so there were about 8 billion
people on Earth today do you know how
many people came before us so what's the
total number of humans born in the last
250,000 years that's about when our
species showed up it's something roughly
equivalent to how many people live right
now at this very moment right no it's
actually much more and it's very
counterintuitive it's about a hundred
billion people yes okay that's 10x what
I thought yeah exactly yeah me too I I I
couldn't believe this when I first
learned this a few years ago there have
already been a hundred billion people on
this planet who have lived and died
before us and so to think you're sitting
here I'm sitting here we are one of the
very very lucky eight billion people to
have been born everybody who's listening
to us right now like right out of the
bait like right out of the gate that's a
lottery ticket now factor in how many of
us are born in the United States Canada
Australia Western Europe like born into
a country where you're not under you
know some horrible regime that's like
completely taken away your rights so so
go through that math in how many
countries would you like to be born into
today you've now reduce that number even
more so we we really have hit the
lottery to be here where we are right
now and instead I like to think about
okay how can I modify my current world
to not be as you know not have as many
of the unintended consequences of
modernity um as as are obviously going
to take place if I'm
not deliberate about it yeah what really
blows my mind so I'm totally with you
and as a student of History uh I don't
think there's any way that you could
ever want to go back when you realize
people were just slaughtered put on
Pikes in front of the you know the road
leading up to your town and was just
crazy genas Khan killed 10% of the
world's population just killed them in
the most brutal fashion that you can
imagine it's just absolute Insanity uh
and that's history but even go one step
further Tom let's say I said you can go
back 500 years ago and be the king of
England M okay so now you're the most
powerful person in the world 500 years
ago how's that working out for you in
your dark dingy castle with like nappy
ass food and disease and like War like
none of it's good none of it's good like
we're so much better off no doubt and
yet deaths of Despair and so what I find
so interesting is looking at all of the
improvements that we've made elongating
life obviously we' have not Fallen back
to where the average ages 40 but there
is something really emotionally
distressing about seeing that line begin
to bend down yes and so I start asking
myself okay what are the things that I
need to do to make sure that I am not
falling prey to the things that that
cause issue so um I'm going to lay out
the things that I think are most
problematic let me know what you think
about this list so um I would have in
fact if I'm honest in my soul I still
think uh that diet is problem number one
one so you've got you said very
eloquently that diet has um it it is
huge downside if you get it wrong but
limited upside if you get it right so I
think that we're getting that wrong so I
think that's the first problem uh number
two exercise you have to manufacture it
and so now people just aren't doing it
uh meaning and purpose obviously you
already talked about that I think that
one is huge but somewhat ironic given
that people are going to spend a lot of
their time working uh to get money to
theoretically live in this modern world
but somehow they're not attaching
they're not taking the conscious action
of attaching that to I do this for this
reason and I think that that probably
has a large part to do with the
dissolution of the family unit so few
people are having kids now comparatively
um so that becomes a big problem uh but
then you also have things like uh
industrialized farming uh highly
processed Foods things where it becomes
almost impossible to get around things
that are creating a problem for you and
so now you have to be there's no default
setting that just works out from a
health perspective whereas before the
default answer was uh you wanted to have
sex so you were going to end up having
kids uh you were part of a social fabric
that made huge demands on you in terms
of taking care of the group taking care
of your kids uh so you were just sort of
forced into a role that would be wildly
emotionally advantageous for the average
person of course some people are going
to hate it uh but for the average let's
not forget that those of us that those
of our ancestors who couldn't bend to
those Norms were killed that's or
isolated and killed isolated and died
from a social pressure a social
perspective
right life moves fast you're rushing
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or racing to meet project deadlines
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Theory so I I was actually talking to
somebody a while ago and they asked me
why are we as humans
so like the question came up in the
context of why is it if I look at my
YouTube comments and there are 2,000
good ones and one negative one it's the
only one I think of I'm sure you can
relate to this I can relate comments for
that reason but yes but totally
understood and I said it's it's called
negativity bias and we're hardwired to
it it's evolutionarily very adaptive
because in that setting that you
describe in our tribe you had to be way
more attuned to when you were upsetting
people than when you were pleasing
people because if you are upsetting
people and you get cast out you don't
have too many days of life left you're
not going to survive on your own like
that's that's sort of the the human gift
is our ability to work together so we're
hardwired to accept that and so my only
point there is like a lot of weeding out
took place during this process to get us
to where we are for good and bad yeah no
doubt because natural selection and
evolution were optimizing for um our
genetic lineage not our happiness it's
very important to understand this
difference natural selection does not
care if you're
happy doesn't care at all it cares how
fit your genes are that's
it unless you're so unhappy that you
will kill yourself before you can pass
on your genes that you would have a
negative pressure to get that Gene out
but but if if the answer is like you're
not happy you're not satisfied you're
not who cares can you procreate and pass
on your genes that's the only pressure
that is maniacally driving Evolution
forward yeah and once People wrap their
heads around that it becomes a lot
easier to structure their life in a way
that's actually going to make sense uh
so given that given that Clarity what
should somebody do that is facing that
basket of goods that we just went at
least through a partial piece of that um
how should a guy who SE the numbers of
deaths of despair of skyrocketing how do
they begin to structure their life such
that they deal with the biological
realities and the
psychological so one quick anecdote
before we do that and obviously we could
talk about this for so long because I
think that's the essence of of
everything um several years ago I
interviewed an amazing doctor on my
podcast his name is Tom Katen so he's a
he's a US physician who uh became a
missionary so he's now um a physician in
Sudan in the nuba mountains of Sudan
where the government is you know killing
its own people so there's an area in the
mountains where there's a million people
who don't have any medical care and he
provides all the medical care to these
million people by himself he now has a
little bit more help he has some nurses
uh and stuff and and and so uh a group
of us support his work there and he's
doing incredible work I mean he's truly
one of the most amazing human beings
I've ever met right very rarely I meet
somebody and think like I'm not sure I
deserve to be in this guy's presence
like there's such a gap between us as
human beings and one of the things I
remember Tom when I was asking um this
this question um I said to him because
he's going through just what the hellish
life is like I mean to be clear bombs
are being dropped on these people
routinely so half the stuff he's doing
is taking care of kids who' have had
their legs ripped off from shrap null um
like it's just you know they have they
have holes they have to be able to jump
into when the government is like you
know dropping these bombs on them and
stuff like that and I said Tom it sounds
horrible I mean like what is the suicide
rate there and he's like oh in the
entire time I've been here there's only
been one suicide and it was someone that
we later found out had a really bad
brain tumor and we actually just wonder
if it was the brain tumor that had kind
of altered his behavior and I was like
and these aren't people that are all
dying in their 30s I mean yes some of
them do but also many people survive
into their 70s and 80s so it's not just
that you can say well you know we don't
have deaths of Despair because we're all
dying from trauma no there's something
else going on and I think about that all
the time because here you have people
living
today who are living in a situation that
is abject misery and yet somehow it
doesn't cross their minds to end their
lives the way it would cross our minds
I'm sure like if I said to you Tom I'm
gonna I'm going to ship you over to
Sudan for the next 10 years
like or if you sent the same thing to me
I'm like I don't know that I can do this
right um so what is that like to me
that's super interesting and I think a
lot of the things you talked about are
covered right so even though they're
eating not that much they don't have
great food you know it's a very bland
diet that is you know lots of rice and
beans and you know they're eating meat
that's not particularly wonderful and
flavorful and they're probably eating
the same food every single day when it's
available
um you know they they have the internet
but it's obviously not a huge part of
their lives um they're they family is
very important right so lots of kids uh
family is very important to produce the
food and build the shelter and all of
the stuff that they that they survive in
there um so clearly that gives them a
purpose even though in the eyes of the
world they're not building businesses
they're not building companies they're
not quote unquote changing the world so
purpose doesn't really have to be
necessarily on a world
scale um so I say that only as an as a
foray into the question of well what
what what should we do with the
privilege we have now which is amazing
uh to to mitigate some of the downsides
of it and I honestly I don't think it's
like that much of a mystery right I
think um the nutrition sleep exercise
piece is so obvious that I just I think
to ignore it is problematic um but I
also don't know if we really need to
talk about it because is there anybody
who would honestly be listening to us at
this point who wouldn't agree with the
notion that if if if you're thinking
about eight hours of sleep versus six
hours of sleep which one's going to
produce better mental and emotional
health if you're thinking about being
sedentary versus not being sedentary if
you're thinking about eating well versus
not eating well these things are really
clear now part of the question becomes
how do you motivate yourself to do those
things if you're starting in the low
spot where it's like I don't want to do
these things like I'm isolating myself
I'm
or I'm working too hard and I can't make
the time to do these things how do I
prioritize them I think that's a
discussion worth having um I think in
terms of sense of purpose maybe that's
one of the most difficult ones to
manufacture um and honestly I just don't
know
that like I don't know that I'm enough
of an expert in that area I I feel
fortunate that that's not something I've
ever struggled with I've always kind of
felt like I know what I'm supposed to be
doing um whether you have people that
come into your practice that lack
motivation they've got the money yeah I
think I think look there are people who
come into my practice who certainly
struggle with the motivation for
how they can look after themselves right
so there there's definitely um I think
it's independent of of Education
independent of wealth status anything
like that that sort of intrinsic drive
for self-care um with respect to the the
sort of variables that we talked about
and and I and again I think that that's
where you you kind of have to start with
something that's a win you got to give
people a win I think and um I tend to
always gravitate towards exercise
because I think that gives most people
maybe not everybody but I do think that
most people when they get into a routine
of exercise really start to experience
physical benefits and psychological
benefits and the physical benefits are
are evident right so when people look
better when they feel better physically
that's reinforcing but the actual active
exercise is typically followed by a
period of of not necessarily Euphoria
although in some people it can be but
just a you know there's an increase in
dopamine so you're going to actually
feel better transiently and that becomes
rewarding and and self-reinforcing so I
always think that exercise is a great
place to start building habits for
people um and I also think that you know
if you take a person who says well I'm
not really to take that step yet I don't
really want to exercise Peter what can I
I do then I think being outdoors is very
important um one of the things that is
pretty jarring about this world is
the um the overabundance of symmetry and
right angles and things like that again
going back to the example of the guy who
shows up in our who's sitting over here
from 10,000 years ago that's something
that's going to be very jarring he's not
used to having seen straight lines and
right angles and perfectly symmetric
things right he's
seen sort of fractal geometry everywhere
um so there's some literature on this
it's not the most robust literature
because it's very difficult to study but
there are some literature that suggest
that people who spend a period of time
Outdoors every day in nature um actually
experience benefits in terms of brain
chemistry so it's it's again it's it's
it's challenging to test because it's
challenging to measure but it's actually
quite plausible and it makes a lot of
sense again going back to the fact that
our brains are still kind of 10,000 year
old brains an obvious example of this is
our response to fear a lot of times we
still you and I both I'm sure all day
long experience the the the mid-brain
fear right like the amygdala based
response the lyic system response as
opposed to the cortical response to
things and that's clearly a vestage of
our Evolution like we we needed to be
able to have a fear response quickly
before thinking um most of the time
today we don't need that but certainly
we needed that you know 10,000 years ago
and so a lot of times we still have to
think about how can I nurture and feed
that brain that part of my brain that is
still there what are the um Health
consequences of
laziness well there's obviously the
physical consequence of it right so um
the body
does need to have a hormetic stress and
and that's true in virtually everything
we do I mean most of the times
stressor that's temporary produces a
more robust uh organism following the
stressor so in that sense exercise is
just one of the most remarkable examples
we have of stressing the system if you
think about it in the acute state of
exercise everything that's happening is
actually taking the body out of
equilibrium so heart rate goes up blood
pressure goes up body temperature goes
up all of those variables are actually
going out of the area that produce that
that the body wants to be in normally so
the body has to kind of counteract those
things and the counteracting of those
things produces a response that makes
the body stronger so if a person is
sedentary and again it's obviously easy
to be sedentary in the world today that
wasn't an option for our ancestors who
by the way were quite sedentary when not
working right so it's not like we
exercised um we were we were conserving
energy as much as we could but you know
we were still probably walking a lot and
doing a lot of physical activity even
when we sat by the way like think about
it so you and me are sitting how like
are we actively sitting or passively
sitting I feel pretty passive super
passive right but how did our ancestors
obviously would sit but they would sit
in a low
squat so if you've ever sat in a low
squat on the floor it's you know it's
still sitting but it's very active so
you're saying people weren't sitting on
their ass they were actually they would
sit on their ass which is still way more
active than sitting in this chair say
more more uncomfortable super
uncomfortable right but why is it
uncomfortable you have to still stay
somewhat active to support your body you
have to keep your back forward right you
have to keep your hips in a certain
position sitting on a log sitting in
just a very low squat as you're sitting
over the fire as you're cooking as
you're preparing something everything
that they did just a low level of
activity was significantly more than
what we're doing right this is you know
this chair is designed to make us as
relaxed as possible as comfortable as
possible um and again you know some
people will take that to the level and
say look don't sit on chairs like this
don't sit on a chair that has a back
just sit on a chair that only has uh a
platform so that you are forced to
engage your core to sit up that's that's
great but you get the sense that you
could go through life quickly realizing
Little Things things that you can do to
work around that I sit on a chair with
the back but you know I also make sure
I'm going to exercise you know every
single day so that I can sort of offset
the damage that comes from you know
turning into a piece of wagu
beef very fair uh do you worry at all
about the way that people manipulate
their dopamine loops with things like
pornography Netflix video
games yeah and again not an area of my
expertise so I I come at this through
the lens of a consumer of information
I've obviously talked about this on
podcasts and interviewed people who are
the experts on this um so I don't know
if youve have you interviewed Anna lmka
from Stanford I have yeah a while ago
but yes yeah so look I think it is
problematic um I I think when you I
think dopamine responses to things that
are unnatural tend to produce too much
of a counter effect where the
deprivation of dopamine following the
stimulus creates more discomfort than
the comfort you gained through the
stimulus so explain that again English
yeah so um well let's start with the
right way to get to manipulate dopamine
the right way to manipulate dopamine
again let's go back to that idea that
about like you have this idea of um
homeostasis is this very important part
of the human body so the you know a lot
of this stuff I'm sure you know but
maybe just to make sure listeners
understand like how tightly the body
regulates um every process so
temperature so if if we assuming you're
not sick right now I'm not sick right
now we put a thermometer in our ear or
on our mouth you know you and I are
going to be within one degree of each
other and we're going to be within one
degree we're going to be between 98 and
99 degrees Fahrenheit that's going to be
our body temperature right now and
that's going to be the case almost under
any circumstance until what happens
right if we're sick we are going to push
the envelope of that and get higher and
higher 102 103 104 anything beyond that
and we're in trouble right you go much
beyond that you're going to die um if
you're outside in the cold freezing if
you're in water and you're freezing and
your temperature drops much below about
92 you're pretty much going to die so
high regulation of body temperature is
an amazing power of the body similarly
how much we can regulate acid base
balance in the body is even more
impressive than temperature truthfully
um how you can regul glucose levels the
difference between a person who's about
to die of hypoglycemia and a person with
type 2 diabetes is still actually a tiny
amount of glucose in the grand scheme of
things it's literally teaspoons of
glucose spread across the whole body in
the plasma level so our ability to
regulate every single thing is
remarkable so now if you look at the
brain dopamine is actually something
that needs to be kind of regulated and
so a lot of times painful stimulants uh
things like exercise cold water uh
therapy they create enough discomfort
that the body actually increases
dopamine production as a way to offset
that discomfort right you having you
have to give you a little bit of
pleasure for that pain and so when you
remove that stimulus you still get a
little bit of the lingering dopamine but
it's not a super high Spike that is
unnatural and so over time that doesn't
become problematic now a lot of the
things that you mentioned are kind of
hijacking the system and again it sort
of comes back to Evolution like
we didn't you know have slot machines
and video games and porn and um you know
pick your favorite drug that really
hijacks the system like cocaine or
something like that um and so what these
things do is they're creating such a
surge of dopamine along with other
hormones as well it's a bit overs
simplistic to just say dopamine but you
know norepinephrine epine and all these
other things that when this when the
stimulus is removed the drop in that
dopamine is so high because as You'
experienced that huge spike your body is
pulling its dopamine down right again
it's homeostasis we have this huge Spike
of dopamine well our body is saying
that's too much we're going to make less
so less endogenous production of
dopamine then that stimulation is gone
and you're in a dopamine deficit so um
one of the things that actually Anna
talks about is is is when when she
encounters somebody who's who's dealing
with this is they do I think she calls
it a dopamine fast right so if a person
says like I can't stop playing video
games she's like okay we're going to do
30 days of no video games and this
person will go through withdrawal they
will literally go through a painful
withdrawal that is no different than the
withdrawal that you know if you remember
train spotting when you watch like you
know when those guys are trying to get
off heroin like how painful that was she
saying there's a literal physical
withdrawal period from dopamine Loops
whether James porn whatever whatever y
and again you have to differentiate
between there are certain dop there are
certain times when these these
withdrawal symptoms are so difficult
that they actually even require other
medication that's usually not the case
with something like video games gambling
and porn but we know for example it
could be the case with alcohol so if you
took a person who's drinking an enormous
sum of alcohol and they want to quit
cold turkey they actually have to do
that stuff under medical supervision is
that dopamine though I was assuming that
something else in well I mean dopamine
is part of it but but they actually it's
actually probably more Gaba related so
those people actually end end up needing
to be on sort of bzo diazines to help
cope with that um Jesus yeah otherwise
it can actually actually be fatal they
can de they can develop fatal arhythmia
um if they are if they withdraw off
alcohol too much to be clear that is not
the case for most people so if you're if
someone's watching us and they're you
know they're in a habit of drinking two
to three drinks a night you can stop
that cold turkey but I'm talking about
people who are drinking like you know a
40 of Jack every single day day for
breakfast yeah th those people need to
be under medical supervision as they as
they what is the benzo doing does it
slow their heart rate like I don't
understand yeah so it's probably
balancing out the Gaba agonism that that
ethanol was doing for them because Gaba
is a ethanol is a huge Gaba Agonist as
well so basically the body is trying to
compensate for the um the suppressive
nature of the alcohol so you technically
have this like over
abundance of go go go from what blood
pressure heart rate catacol amines yeah
the whole thing interesting so the body
is relentlessly trying to balance the
scale so it's just jumping on go go go
and as soon as you stop the depressant
now it's gonna throw you so hard yeah
that is fascinating I never stopped to
run the math on that okay that's very
interesting so uh all right putting this
all back in context we're living in this
modern world it is a world of joy and
abundance and I have a fascinating
relationship with this because as I've
moved over into developing video games
people will come and be like yo bro I
thought you were about mindset like what
are you doing you're giving people a
drug and I'm like what uh my thing is
the modern world is so full of these
amazing things to like you said go back
in time I don't want to do that that's
not interesting uh so I want to have a
relationship with these things but I
want a good relationship now for better
or worse uh I did not have discipline as
a young person I'm talking into my mid
20s so as somebody who developed
discipline learned how rules can be
super beneficial I've developed a
relationship with what I'll call
gamification it's the thing that makes
games fun but I apply it not only to
games but to other areas of my life and
so I'm like I want to see people have a
good relationship with this now as a
father have you thought about like do
you just try to deny your kids access to
this stuff or do you have a method by
which they can do all the fun things at
the modern world world has to offer but
do them
well yeah I think being a parent today
is
um probably a bit more challenging than
being a parent 40 years ago um which is
to say it might even be more challenging
in 40 years although I'm sure everybody
thinks that their that their time is the
most difficult time so um and this is
the situ this is what I think about more
than anything so to me this is this is
the jugular question right is what what
do I do to give my kids the best chance
of being well adjusted adults like
that's the thing that actually matters
right I'm not asking the question what
do I do to give my kids the greatest
chance to be successful because I you
know how do you define success like do I
give a [ __ ] if my kids you know go to
the best university or get the best
degrees or get the best jobs or make the
most money I don't care about any of
that stuff like all that stuff is
garbage if they are unhappy and if
they're not well-adjusted human beings
so I don't actually want them to make
the mistakes I made where you don't
think about that and all you think about
is the pursuit of success and success
and success I don't so I want to make
sure that they don't repeat my errors
and and and and sort of so so what can I
do as a parent to set them up for that
because at the end of the day they're
going to make their own choices so you
know one I don't think that complete
abstinence is the right strategy because
you know as my really good friend Rick
Elias said to me on a
podcast five or six years ago parenting
is like playing a game of tug-of war
that you have to lose after 18 years
that's a great analogy yeah now how do
you lose it you can't let go of the Rope
all at once you can't hold on to the
Rope for dear life and when they're 18
just let go because what's going to
happen they're going to go
flying so you have to slowly slowly
slowly slowly lose such that by the time
they head off to college or leave the
house whenever that is they won the game
but they won it slow and so I mean I
think about this so much with my
daughter who is
16 and obviously we have a very
different set of rules for her than my
10-year-old and my
seven-year-old and you know so for
example it has to do with letting her
make choices that I think are wrong but
you know in three years she's not going
to live with us anymore she's going to
be able to make all the choices she
wants so it's probably better under my
roof that she figures out some of these
mistakes so let's use alcohol as an
example I didn't drink in high school
because I was a health nut right so it's
like it just none of like nothing about
like the normal things of high school
like I didn't go to parties if I did I
didn't I rarely went I didn't drink like
all I did was train train train train
train it was the only thing I did so in
a way I can't really relate to my
daughter wanting to go to parties cuz I
was like you know my head I'm thinking
why would you want to go to a party you
could just study and train um but that's
also that's pretty dumb so I also
realize it's pretty naive of me to say
like go to this party but don't have a
sip of alcohol even if everybody else is
drinking it's probably much better for
me to
say what do you think about drinking
like what you know what are your
thoughts on it what are you curious I
mean you clearly watch Mom and Dad have
a glass of wine a couple times a week
you know we have tons of alcohol in our
house it's not like you don't know what
this stuff is but have you seen other
kids drink do you want to try it
anything you want to try with us right
here this is a really good glass of wine
I promise you they won't have this at
the party right um and and then talk
about well what could happen to you if
you drink too much um what happens when
kids drink and get in cars like so
instead we just sort of talk about all
of these things because what we really
want to do is get to the point where
she's going to basically be able to go
and make her own decision and if her own
decision is like I'm going to have some
nasty drink I want to make sure she
holds on to the drink she never drinks
anything that someone gives her you kind
of go through all the rules that you
would go through for a young girl who's
drinking to make sure that something
catastrophic doesn't happen to her and
she also gets to know that at any time
of day or night if you need a ride you
can call us and there'll be no questions
or judgment so I mean that's just one
example but like I'm kind of giving you
a how would I do that now would I have
that type of thinking with my kid with
my boys who are younger not a chance in
hell we're way more restrictive with
what those guys do because we're still
holding on to the Rope because if we
didn't they could kill themselves at any
given day by accident just because their
brains are not developed and they'll do
stupid [ __ ] exactly like they're still
at the point where if we're walking them
to school and they're fighting they can
easily fall out onto the road and get
hit by a car so they're just like
they're they're still in the stage of
like they could kill themselves any
given day like and you know you just
have to decide like okay well if they
really want to climb that tree where
that branch is going to break and I've
warned them six times that branch is
going to break but they don't want to
listen it's only a three-foot
fall okay that's a lesson they might
have to learn it's interesting so I
don't know if you know Brett Weinstein
but he has a fascinating rule for his
kids I hope I get this right this is
directionally correct if it's not
literally correct um you can do anything
that doesn't cause like uh cervical
damage or brain trauma like it was like
these really specific things if you
you're putting yourself at risk of
breaking a finger or an arm or a leg
cool but if it could damage your neck
your back or your head absolutely out of
the question and I was like that
actually makes a lot of sense now scares
the life I just I just don't know how
you I
mean it's it's it's it's in theory a
nice rule but I don't know how you would
adjudicate that in the real world like
you know is falling off a three-foot
branch likely to damage your c-spine or
your skull no but look theoretically
it's possible Right like riding a bike
and a scooter really really fast even
with a helmet you can still really cause
some damage um
so it's it's probably a nice heris I'm
not sure how I would how I would put it
into practice Yeah it's tough because
ultimately you are you're certainly
running that calculus with your boys now
about what branch you've tried to tell
them and they're going to just keep
pushing it's interesting that is one of
the many reasons that I did not have
kids like that that is terrifying I
don't know how I survive child just to
be completely honest and