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do you think the debt is a real problem
uh and is it something that people
should really stop and
address yeah I think debt is a very real
and and serious issue and the amount of
debt the US government has AC Creed I
think as a testament to the poor fiscal
management um of the US government um
and not just the executive branch but
Congress as well um and it's been going
on for a very very um you know very long
time and not a lot has been done about
it and really you know in the post 911
era the amount of debt that um you know
the US government has taken on has just
absolutely ballooned when you compare it
to previous decades and I think a lot of
that has to do with the Foreign Wars
that the US government has engaged in
including ones that aren't formally
declared um in in this sort of effort to
expand uh you know the the military
Empire abroad and sort of maintain that
hegemony and dominance and historically
a lot of that uh was also into uh
directly related to dollar hemony the
Petro dollar system which now we know uh
has essentially been on the way out um
but a colleague of mine Mark Goodwin uh
put out a book a few years ago about
this idea of the Bitcoin dollar system
and this idea that the US government
would sort of use Bitcoin uh and create
the system that's like an analog to the
Petro dollar system uh where because
most people um you know uh when Bitcoin
is purchased usually it's done with you
know by buying dollars first um in order
to purchase Bitcoin for example um
and um in in that type of um situation
you'd be just like in the case of you
know the Petra dollar where uh you know
the price of oil is in it's priced in
dollars you're generating artificial
demand for dollars to buy some sort of
energy commodity or energy asset and
Bitcoin sort of is an energy asset at
the end of the day uh it's moving uh
essentially attempting to create the
same system but instead of with oil uh
with Bitcoin and most of the Bitcoin
Holdings uh the world are concentrated
in the United States and the US
government itself is one of the biggest
holders um of Bitcoin in the world uh so
I think uh there's sort of this effort
there to do that and this was actually
implicit in uh Trump's uh speech that he
gave um at the Bitcoin conference a few
months ago sort of saying uh that's what
uh he sort of Saw utility in Bitcoin for
um in a sense and uh but I think also
that has a lot of uh causes a lot of
complications when it relates to the
ethos of Bitcoin which was originally
about uh stopping irresponsible Central
Bank policy and fiscal policy uh the
idea that you would um yoke Bitcoin to
the US dollar instead of using it to
challenge the US dollar or challenge
Fiat or challenge debt-based currency or
a debt-based monetary system obviously
if you uh join you know the US uh dollar
um to bitcoin having Bitcoin be a
challenge to those things essentially
kind of has to stop and and really in
that situation you could have Bitcoin
enable that type of irresponsible fiscal
policy um because you could I mean uh
you would essentially be using it as a
sync for hyperinflation um at the end of
the day it is a really interesting frame
to think of Bitcoin as a sync for
hyperinflation of the US dollar but I
don't know that a lot of people are
going to understand what that means so
if you had to say that same thing but
from a different angle how would you
explain to somebody how uh one why is
the hyperinflation going to come about
and two how is it Bitcoin that becomes
the sync for that to stop that from
becoming a runaway
problem um so essentially if you were to
like hyperinflate the dollar in this
type of system obviously the price of
Bitcoin would appreciate as price in US
dollars but it's not uh but Bitcoin
itself isn't subject to inflation so the
people that hold Bitcoin in that case
would really benefit in that type of
scenario but people that hold you know
dollars uh for example um would not
necessarily but there's also this effort
to sort of resolve this uh that aspect
of it by bringing stable coins into the
equation which are um you know digital
dollars but they're kind of gobbling up
us treasuries um and uh you know are
buying sort of like nation state level
amount of US Government debt and
servicing the debt at the same time so
sort of this the Bitcoin dollar system
as I understand and again this is Mark
Goodwin's work so again he can probably
explain it a lot better than me and the
the detailed mechanisms and all of that
um but as I understand it you would have
to have sort of these dollar stable
coins uh in in the mix as well um as a
way to sort of absorb uh government debt
and even you know these things may not
be enough to absorb all of the debt that
we have and so there's these uh efforts
uh right now this idea of real world
asset tokenization there's this push
into uh Tok organizing what is referred
to as natural capital or aspects uh I
guess major uh like even entire
ecosystems essentially and tokenizing
them and using that as sort of like uh
you know a store of wealth of finite
Supply um so there's this one uh effort
for example that's seeking to tokenize
each hectare of the Amazon rainforest
and there's 750 million hectares so
there's a finite supply of this digital
asset security that's tied to each he te
of the rainforest so then you have
something else that you know uh can
could in theory be used as a as a sync
for this stuff too because when it's of
a finite Supply it's in you know it's
not subject to inflation and so you can
sort of mitigate the in the impacts of
inflation uh by having this
anti-inflationary thing because of its
finite Supply as a sync um you know for
the thing that you're creating more of
in the case of in in the case of dollars
um okay okay that that is really really
interesting I want to walk people
through that and my words let me know if
I go astray um in fact one thing I'm
going to lay out how I think the dollar
hyper inflates but if you think I get
that wrong please definitely challenge
uh my thinking so here's what I'm taking
away from this you right now because of
the debt going up like crazy we are
already in a position where the US
government is going to spend more just
on the interest in the debt than they
spend on military spending uh next year
it's projected to be more than Medicare
Medicaid all of our social programs uh
and so what's going to end up happening
is they will inevitably find themselves
in a position where they're going to
have to lower rates in order to be able
to make good on that debt or default
defaulting I think would be way worse
and so what they'll end up doing is
printing money now the problem is
printing money in my words in my words
printing money is straight theft they
are making more of the money so that
they can so socialize effectively the
losses the loses yeah exactly so
everybody has to deal with the losses
but then they can funnel that money into
making good on the debt that they've
accured okay so to do that then you're
going to get into this um just death
spiral of hyper inflating the dollar
because you have to keep printing more
of it in order to service the debt and
deal with all your obligations so that
you don't default so that will
effectively Drive the um the worth of
the dollar closer and closer to zero uh
every um Global Reserve currency has had
this problem even if you look at the um
British pound it's lost something like
98% of its value over the last 150 years
or something is absolutely insane uh so
this is the nature of currencies and
what you need in order to avoid getting
clobbered by that if you're paying
attention is you need an asset that you
can go into that you can store uh the
value of your money that's why they call
it a store value uh that cannot be
inflated and the one that has a lot of
cultural attention and energy right now
is Bitcoin that's certainly why I have
invested in Bitcoin I do not trust the
government not to just keep Printing and
printing and printing but what you're
saying is hey there's this process
called tokenization that we can use to
assign ownership to every physical thing
of value such as the Amazon rainforest
and if you own a given hect takre of uh
the Amazon rainforest you know that they
aren't going to be making any more of it
so you have something that is a finite
Supply you're able to put your value
into that and as long as people value
that uh part of the rainforest you are
good you have a a companion uh store of
wealth to bitcoin or whatever but the
side part of this is that in order to
ensure the Integrity of the hex a on
which this each unit of token is based
you must surveil the forest and so
there's this whole idea of now creating
the internet of forest putting sensors
on every tree and every hectare of the
Amazon in order to ensure that uh you
know no one's messing with it and this
may also at some point include you know
the indigenous people that live there
because you know if one hectare has an
indigenous tribe and less trees right as
compared to another hectare that isn't
inhabited which one is more valuable in
the eyes of inv s particularly if
there's this um effort to impose like a
carbon Market a global carbon Market
which some people like Mark Carney and
other prominent you know Central bankers
and other Bankers have discussed at
length as a alleged solution um you know
to environmental issues in the world um
you know I think that is something that
should be talked about um as well and
also um the idea is to also use
satellite surveillance and so this
particular effort to tokenize the Amazon
specifically is teamed up with a
satellite company
um called satal logic and satal Logic
the chair of the board is Steve minuchin
the former treasury secretary and also
on the board is a man named Howard
lutnick who was recently named to be
co-chair of Trump's transition team and
he's the longtime head of canor
Fitzgerald uh which is one of the main
uh dealers of us treasuries and also uh
very intimately connected to the staple
coin tether uh which is also invested in
SATA logic um so it would it'll be
interesting to see exactly uh what what
goes on there as it relates to the
satellite firm which is also you know in
previous reporting I did with uh Mark
Goodwin who I mentioned earlier for
Bitcoin magazine you know they've been
involved in sort of this effort to
create a carbon Market in Latin America
that was built on the Bitcoin blockchain
specifically which is something that I
think a lot of you know at least older
School bitcoiners uh who were not really
into the idea of carbon markets or any
of these things uh would be you know
quite against um but uh I I think it's
um something that should definitely be
talked about the idea of um you know sat
using satellite surveillance to back all
of the stuff up especially with a
company like satell logic that has you
know the people I mentioned on the board
uh but also are you know vying for us
intelligence and Military contracts and
the people that created that company are
longtime contractors for DARPA and the
NSA and US intelligence so you're going
to have this satellite firm you know
surveilling large SAS of Latin
America um you know if these uh efforts
one of which is called Green Plus and
the other one called one Amazon uh go
through you'll essentially have a a
company that's tied to you know uh for
important people that are uh as it
relates to the US government you know
former officials um and um you know also
people that have historically been US
government and intelligence contractors
uh you know surveilling uh your
environment from the sky without a
national government really having any
say in the matter I think that's quite
um quite problematic um and also tether
uh is behaving rather you know uh making
some interesting choices for a stable
coin issue where I think as well uh
they've started Investing For example in
brain machine interfaces uh you know
brain chips and that sort of thing um
and um have also you know onboarded the
FBI and Secret Service onto their
platform uh and have been you know
shutting down people's wallets uh on
behalf of you know the treasures ofac um
and entities like that um so you know I
think you know some of these stable coin
issuers The prominent ones anyway are
sort of anticipating uh this kind of
system uh that that I discussed earlier
and are sort of uh embedding the
embedding themselves with powerful
actors uh that I think ultimately uh
mitigate their ability to be what some
people have argued are human rights
tools you know some people have said
that about stable coins in the past uh
but if you're on boarding you know one
particular government which very much
has a political agenda as it relates to
Latin America and other parts of the
world uh onto your stable coin and are
freezing uh you know and taking people's
money essentially at the behest of that
government and also getting you know
invested with people that are uh at
least in the case of a future Trump
Administration are likely to have some
political connections there as well um
you know I think that's pretty
significant yeah I think that's very
fair to say um let me ask do you think
that the tokenization of the natural
world um helps or hinders with this what
you called the Neo feudal or where I've
heard you refer to it as like a a new
form of slavery where we have these two
very Divergent classes because when you
first started describing it uh it
sounded kind of awesome and then by the
end I thought uh oh like maybe this
actually creates something really
terrible well okay let let's take the
case of you know um the the green plus
program which claims to sort of tokenize
and and turn into carbon credits
protected areas uh throughout
Latin America so in those cases the
carbon credits aren't given to the
locals or the local governments to trade
and make money off of and put back into
their communities it's going through
third parties that are not based in
those countries and the money for the
people there go into a particular fund
that isn't managed by any people that
live there it's managed by um well they
haven't really been open about it but a
guy from one of the biggest insurance
companies in the world locked in is
ostensibly the head of it and they would
decide when there would be certain
allotments of that money and that money
has can only be spent on projects that
this particular group running green plus
that again isn't based in Latin America
approves of so in that case you're sort
of choosing how the money can be spent
you're framing it publicly as for the
benefit of the environment and for the
benefit of these local people but in
reality you're deciding what they can
and can't fund uh and you know some of
the the stuff that you know they their
partners and whatever are tied to a lot
of the same uh you know foreign
oligarchs uh like the Rockefeller
Foundation or the Gates Foundation or
entities you know like that that go back
to some of these you know very um you
know wealthy families ultimately it's
initiatives run by NOS that those
organizations fund which ultimately
doesn't necessarily work in the best
interest of these local people who are
you know poised to surrender these
protected areas supposedly to protect
them by generating carbon credits but
the carbon credits are going to be
traded by people abroad and the
decisions about how that money is spent
is being made by people who are abroad
not about the locals so it's it sort of
seems to me like a way to you know frame
a project that's going to make certain
people a lot of money uh under very
different terms than what is actually
going to happen it seems more likely to
disenfranchise rather than Empower
locals uh but is Being Framed sort of as
a planetary necessity uh because of the
whole uh you know climate change thing
right so um we have to act now to do
this stuff and so there's you know this
pressure being plac through that
rhetoric on people to comply with these
types of things uh particularly in Latin
America is a big focus of that now um
but I think uh you know as as it's been
you know played out in practice that
really isn't the case and the particular
group uh that I mentioned earlier that's
doing this in the Amazon which is called
one Amazon entered in into contractual
agreements uh with this indigenous
community Community called the shiar I
believe that live in the Amazon and it
was framed to them as being great and
then they actually went and like read
the contract after they signed it and
realized that it dramatically favored
one Amazon over their interest and then
voted to cancel the agreement right so
these guys kind of have a history at
least these actors that I've mentioned
of sort of going in and framing their
stuff making a sales pitch to locals
that it's going to be great for them and
then when it's not in practice the
locals are trying to get out of it so
that should really tell you a lot about
what's going on here I
think okay um do you by any chance know
the uh Ken
theorem no it's very interesting I'm
just beginning to explore it but one of
what I'm trying to figure out is the
thing you're talking about is it um the
necessary outcome so when I think about
the um take Africa and the natural
resources that they have and does that
have to be a point of exploitation or or
could that be a point where they're able
to grow their industries from the ground
up so for instance if you're just
selling off uh your Cobalt or whatever
yeah you're going to be in a really bad
position because you're going to get
effectively taken advantage of the real
money is in building the products the
batteries whatever that are Downstream
of mining that element uh if however you
build the industry in your own country
and you say that we're a tremendous
source of cobalt or in the example of
what we're talking about you have this
Amazon rainfor Forest um is it necessary
just just a fact of the way the economic
system is set up that you will end up
getting exploited if you do this or if
they were smart could they put in
legislation that says okay we're
actually going to assign a value to all
of these different items the rainforest
the whatever whatever and now according
to the uh Coen if I'm saying that
correctly theorem it says basically the
reason that we end up with these um
imbalances where like people pollute
into a river and now you have a company
that's able to make a ton of money
because they can force us all to pay a
cost for the pollution um but they get
to reap all the benefits if instead you
assign an owner to the river now all of
a sudden the owner of that River knows
exactly how much damage is being done
and they can go to the company and say
you owe me this much money because you
are injuring this asset that I own that
has a cost so it becomes this it's
basically a statement of without clear
um property rights then people get away
with things like the tragedy of the
commons where they're able to uh push
their pollution Downstream and reap econ
economic benefits from it so as I was
hearing you say the story that was what
came to mind was like well hold on a
second if you actually assign a value to
this stuff uh to the rainforest just to
stick with one example now suddenly the
rainforest has clear property rights and
if the property rights are clear as long
as those people have not signed a stupid
deal as long as the property rights are
clear and I'm use a terrible word right
now just I don't have a better word in
this moment uh but if they are clear and
just now all of a sudden it's like we
should be able to get into a position
where um the local people or wh whomever
uh are able to capture an accurate
amount of value to know who is uh Deeter
ly impacting their um their ownership uh
and so if the Coen theory is correct
that that may actually have a positive
benefit now I'm I am barely beginning to
understand uh this theorem So for
anybody that knows it better by all
means drop something in the comments
about what I'm not understanding uh very
early in the Journey of uh getting
knowledgeable about that but anyway do
to really be succinct with the question
do you think it is a fundamental nature
of our economic system that that will
become a point of exploitation or could
that if structured correctly be a boon
for any uh local region that has a
natural
asset yeah so I think um a lot of the
powers that are affecting sort of this
natural Capital agenda right now are
inherently predatory
institutions um and so I think their
interest is in exploiting which has been
historically what has happened to Latin
America in the colonial and postcolonial
era um and I think this perhaps may be a
more creative way of um sort of uh
dressing up uh the same game to make it
look different what is the
game well I think what the goal here is
is to sort of financialized and monetize
what previously have been the Global
Commons um so for example there was this
effort that was headed uh by a
Rockefeller Foundation connected group
called the uh intrinsic exchange group
uh they partnered with the New York
Stock Exchange to create this new asset
class and asset vehicle called the
natural asset Corporation and basically
how these nac's um are are said to work
at least as as far as the you know
architects of it have said is that you
know this group goes and identifies a
natural asset that nobody owns and then
they sort of have an Ico and sell sh
shares in that and then work on
generating profit uh you know for their
shareholders and then allegedly will use
that money to uh towards conserving the
asset and all of that but conserving the
asset for example could mean not letting
anyone or any locals go near it and
these natural asset corporations could
go and uh I don't know uh claim on a
lake in Chile for example and say no one
can use it but what if a bunch of local
people uh fish in it and aren't
necessarily damaging the lake uh but you
you know at least in Chile and Argentina
and maybe other Latin American countries
uh water even if it's uh you know a lake
or a river that touches a privately
owned property that's you know part of
the commons so um the int intrinsic
exchange group uh frames this natural um
asset Corporation as creating a whole
new asset class that dwarfs the existing
asset classes we use today and they
referred to that as Nature's economy and
as the opportunity in unlocking Nature's
economy so really it's a way to create
this huge um in my opinion massive asset
class that will allow them to continue
really what is the Wall Street Casino
allow it to continue uh allow them to
continue their bad behavior into the new
era uh but are just going to be sort of
taking uh ownership of natural features
um and you know making these
corporations around them um and then
using them really essentially however
they like um because in theory you know
you could have a natural asset
Corporation and through these carbon
markets and all these other uh
mechanisms that are being created you
can buy offsets or or other things to
sort of justify whatever you want to do
to any sort of land you take ownership
of um ownership of and sort of frame you
know this whole system as benefiting the
environment but really I don't really
think it is that because a lot of these
uh natural Capital things um have been
developed by um you know JP Morgan or uh
you know people like Mark Carney who is
you know a former Banker of the head of
the bank of England head of the Bank of
Canada um and also helped cover up the
HSBC uh drug cartel moneya laundering
Scandal among other things and uh these
are the kind of people that are sort of
Designing um these supposedly
sustainable development um systems but a
lot of it involves uh debt politics um
as it relates to uh you know Global
South economies this idea and the
sustainable development goals of having
sustainable debt lels and all of this
stuff um and how debt is an important
part of financing the sustainable
development goals and how a lot of these
ideas of financializing nature they say
it'll give nature monetary value but it
also allows nature to be turned into
financial instruments um that you know
in the hands of these you know um
predatory financial institutions uh
could just essentially become fod for
their for their casino at the end of the
day and I think that's um not really a
good thing so I think we should look at
the history of these institutions and
not necessarily you know believe at face
value what they say of you know this is
good for the environment and whatever I
don't really uh think that's necessarily
uh the case if you look at you know
groups like uh The Nature Conservancy
for example that are sort of a Pioneer
in this field uh they've been intimately
connected with Wall Street for a very
very long time Henry Paulson who I
mentioned earlier the former Goldman
Sachs guy uh that was head of the
Treasury Department when the' 08 0708
crashed started uh was chairman of the
nature conservancy for a long time and
uh they're very uh they have a lot of
involvement with JP Morgan people
they're pionering this whole idea of the
debt for nature swap on that if
countries um Implement plans the nature
current Conservancy design uh designs
for Land Management for example they'll
be able to restructure part of their
debt and all of this it's sort of I
would argue a way to use uh the huge
debt load that Latin America has been
saddled with uh through their
relationships with entities like the IMF
and the World Bank a way to sort of
offer them an Out quote unquote uh but
it's not necessarily an out it's sort of
a way into this this new game I guess
you could say and so I'm sort of um uh
concerned about it in that sense and I'm
also concerned that um you know his a
lot of these same entities too you know
if you're going to turn like the natural
world into into a commodity you know a
lot of these banks that are involved
like JP Morgan for example um have a
track record of manipulating Commodities
and engaging in a lot of uh you know
Financial criminality that they've never
really been held accountable for aside
from you know maybe some multi-million
dollar fines but when you look at you
know how much money these banks have I
mean it really those fines are nothing
to them especially when you know the
financial criminality being prosecuted
uh creates a you know profits 10 times
the amount of the fine I mean it it was
worth it for them at the end of the day
they have no incentive to change their
behavior so I think for us to believe
that they're all of a sudden
altruistically concerned about uh people
in the global South and and the planet
and the environment I think is honestly
kind of naive of us and I think we
should uh consider that perhaps this is
a um there's different motives at work
here if you like that clip check out the
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