Kind: captions
Language: en
Dave Smith welcome to the show oh thank
you so much for having
me it is a pleasure uh as I was saying
you become a part of my sensemaking
apparatus and so getting a chance to sit
down with people uh that have helped me
think through some tough issues is
always a lot of fun so thanks for taking
the time well thank you I appreciate it
and like I told you before it's a it's a
bad comment on the State of Affairs when
I'm the one making sense but I do
appreciate that that's hilarious uh let
me ask when you were talking to Tucker
Carlson you said that you were terrified
for the future of our nation what
exactly are you worried
about well I mean what you know I got
two little kids so that's what really
makes me scared if I if I was still like
single and childless I think I'd be much
more just like oh this is a fun ride
let's see where this ends but I I don't
feel that way the uh now that I'm just
an old nervous dad um look I mean
there's a mix of a lot of things I guess
uh that that all seem to be kind of
happening at once so you have first off
the um the financial cliff that were
rapidly driving off uh is is pretty
terrifying um there you know it's not
just the $35 trillion in debt or the
fact that um that interest on the debt
is now overtaking the budget but when
you really start to get into like the
derivatives and how much actual debt
there is how the dollar being the world
Reserve currency has kind of been
propping up this whole thing and that if
those dollars you know if forget even
those dollars being returned but if we
can't just continue to export pieces of
paper uh how much you know our whole
economic system is built off of that is
scary but then at the same time you also
have um this kind of like really
intense um cultural divide I think that
cultural and race and sex relations and
things like this are just simply much
worse in this country than they have
been in my life and you know I'm 40 in
my life I think they're they're
certainly at their worst and then on top
of that as if all of that wasn't enough
you have these constant
um this kind of open
flirtation uh by the ruling class with
some type of like real creepy um
technological Neo fascism I mean the the
stuff about like a central bank digital
currency and um you know all of this
kind of like you will own nothing and be
happy and you know that like the the
worst of the clips that come out of like
wef forums which I I understand aren't
exactly you know guaranteed to be the
law of the land anytime soon but it's
still enough to be kind of creeped out
by that all of this happening with the
rise of AI and how advanced the kind of
um
uh the spying apparatus of the federal
government has become you know with all
of that I think there's more than a
little bit to be concerned
about oh and I didn't mention World War
I uh yeah that one how how real do you
think that is like is that are we
actually flirting with World War III or
is that just the sort of um skull and
bones that we're meant to avoid well
there's a um was uh uh Jason Stapleton
was a very bright guy he once said and I
really liked he said never uh never bet
all your chips on the end of the world
because you're only going to be right
once and when you are it won't matter uh
so I'm not saying you know that this is
that we're going to be in in a world war
hopefully we're not I do I am and I'm
somebody who kind of focuses on the
corruption of the ruling class for you
know a a lot more of my life than the
average person does but I have been
absolutely stunned by the recklessness
of the the policy of the Biden
Administration since the war in in
Ukraine broke out like there is there
seems to be
no
considering uh of the possibility that
like we are risking so much for such an
unspecified goal um you know Victory
whatever for that means exactly uh for
Ukraine and the fact that even over the
last uh couple months now I mean there's
been more and more signals I guess for
more than just a couple months these
signals that the regime in DC will
support Ukraine's striking inside of
Russia and then even supporting as the
war moves inside of Russia's borders and
this is simply unlike anything even in
the Cold War and if you know your cold
war history like we actually play came
pretty close to nuclear war on a couple
of occasions and it was only through
Communications at the highest levels
that we were able to avoid that and
these days they openly brag that they're
not communicating at all and so I I I
just I think it's so crazy to be
involved in a proxy war on Russia's
border um and now I'm not saying it's
we're going to all die in a nuclear war
but the fact that we would even tolerate
upping the the risk of that for no
strategic Advantage whatsoever is been
pretty wild to see
so what's your thesis on that so I tend
to assume that while I may have wildly
Divergent values from the people in
power I don't think them stupid so is it
that they're dumb or is there an agenda
that we're unaware of that makes them
say uh hey don't worry we're not going
to move NATO an inch East Ops uh we just
keep marching East like nine minutes
after making that statement
I I mean I you know I guess it it'd be
comforting to kind of believe that no
there is some real wisdom there and they
actually have a plan and know better
um I I got to say I think that at least
amongst the political class this is more
or less how I see it right so amongst
the political class I think what you
have for the most part as you may have
noticed is like the same generation of
politicians as when I was a kid for the
most part I mean I know just had to swap
Biden out they had to swap Biden out for
Camala Harris but you know Nancy Pelosi
and Chuck Schumer and Joe Biden who's
the president of the United States
presumably um they are all kind of came
up during the unipolar moment um maybe
maybe they came up a little before that
but then they were really all in power
in that moment and I'm referring to was
what Charles crammer called the unipolar
moment after the the Soviet Union
collapse
and I think that being in this moment
was unlike anything else in human
history a truly like a one dominant
Global Empire with a you know military
and technological capabilities unlike
anything that any country had ever had
and there was essentially no there was
no counter force and so they were kind
of allowed to do whatever they wanted to
or they were able to do whatever they
wanted to and I do think that this bred
a very
unimpressive group of political leaders
uh it it's breathtaking if you go back
and listen to political speeches that
were given by Eisenhower or Jack Kennedy
and just think about how much not only
how much smarter those guys
were but how much smarter they presumed
Their audience the American people were
and listen to you know political
speeches from today it's like I mean
just watching the Democratic National
Convention over the last few days it's
unbelievable how dumb the whole thing is
forget whether you lean left or right
and this is true for the Republicans too
whether you lean left or right
everything has gotten so freaking dumb
and the more I look at this I'm like no
I don't think these politicians have
some master plan I don't think that
behind the scenes Camala Harris is like
a a genius or Joe Biden is a genius and
they have some plan I think they are
really unimpressive they're they're
essentially the the old saying of born
on third base and felt like you hit a
triple like they feel like they built
this the greatest power in the history
of the world when they didn't they just
inherited it and then who who you have
who's really pulling the strings are
essentially big business interests and
they are very smart but they're very
smart and motivated at making money and
so like you know if you're like all that
talk about NATO expansion I mean that
was a if you were just somebody in a
weapons company who's trying to figure
out how to make more profits and you're
like listen we're going to fund these
think tanks that advocate for NATO
expansion and then we're going to Lobby
these politicians to get this NATO
expansion well it was a great deal for
you you got to sell weapons to like a
much much bigger Market than you would
have before so I think there is like a
an intelligent plan going on but it's
not you know not one that's like on
behalf of the American
people do you think that this is all
ultimately just a question of
money no not entirely uh no one thing is
ever completely the answer so I mean I
think money I think business explains a
lot explains a lot of it um no but there
is there's ideology at work also um and
certainly I think that like the the
neoconservatives I think certainly had
an ideology about what what should be
done in the uh after the collapse of the
Soviet Union and how we should have as
they called it a project for a New
American
Century I think there there were there
are True Believers in that group and I'm
you know I I I don't know exactly with
some of the other stuff you know like my
my gut not that I I know this for sure I
can't read people's minds but my gut is
that a lot of the Progressive Democrats
the Democratic Elite type don't really
believe in a lot of the ideology that
they espouse I mean I I don't believe
that Joe Biden is really concerned about
trans issues or something like that I
just I don't buy that I don't think
anybody who's 80 is really like I just I
don't buy that they're really concerned
about trans issues um but I do think
that there are like neoconservatives who
really believe their hawkish foreign
policy View and I do think that there
are there are people in DC you know like
human beings are a weird species it's it
if all of your incentives dictate that
you believe something most of the times
human beings aren't just going Mah I'll
be evil and act out my incentives even
though I know they're wrong we have a
tremendous capacity to like convince
ourselves that the thing that's good for
us is actually the correct move so I'm
sure there are some people in DC who
really believe in like you know some
peace through strength or we got to go
you know confront Iran or something like
that I you know I'm sure there were
people who really believed that uh if if
we toppled Saddam Hussein democracy
would sweep the region people can
convince themselves of all types of
nonsense I have a a theory that is it'll
be interesting to hear what you think so
um I think that when you view this all
through the lens of power like the will
to power like n's Will To Power it all
starts making sense um when you look at
it through the lens of money it actually
makes less sense there's clearly money
involved but I think money through the
lens of again the will to power that
somebody can use that money to be in
control that makes sense uh so what it
looks like to me even when I look at
Russia is um having I'm old enough to
remember the height of the Cold War I
remember one of my neighbors asking me
if I thought we were all going to die
from a nuclear blast I was uh a kid
perfectly timed for the movie Red Dawn
where it isn't specifically Russia but
that's obviously what it's meant to be
they just paratrooper in uh take over a
town I used to have a recurring
nightmare about Red Dawn actually
happening um and so I think uh when I
play out the following scenario a a lot
of things make sense you have uh the Old
Guard still in in control they lived
through all of that they knew what that
was it felt like an unbel believably
jubilant moment when we tore down the
Berlin Wall the Soviet Union collapses
uh it just felt like man this is America
really the ideal of freedom and
capitalism has won over communism and
tyranny this is uh a fantastic moment
unipolar let's make the most of being
the only Power uh and we are the good
guys and so let's go do what good guys
do and and bring democracy to the rest
of the world now where that starts to
read is like okay this is really just
the the cover story for my Will To Power
that gets cloudy like you said some
people probably convince themselves of
it other people may be purely cynical it
almost doesn't matter it's okay we
won we are now going to um use our
influence we clearly will pitch it as
benevolent and then it becomes a
question of okay if if that's what doing
and this is the old war and now we're
pushing NATO up closer to Russia if
we're having PTSD essentially of when
there really was parity between us and
Russia economically um I get why they
want to keep Russia weak somehow some
way they're they don't realize that when
you topple a regime it seems almost
universally that something worse comes
into power but when I run that thought
experiment everything I see clicks into
place
do you think there's anything missing in
that assessment well I you know again I
don't think it's necessarily one or the
other I mean I think the will to power
is certainly um a major factor and and
human psychology of course is a is a
factor with all people and and powerful
people don't escape that and there have
been like some studies on this done and
stuff of like the drug that is power and
human beings are you know genetically
hard wired to desire power and status
and all of these things and and I've
even seen it like uh just in my little
bit of experience in like the corporate
media it's it's amazing how much these
people are driven by the fact that you
know they they got a phone call from a
senator and they're going to be at a
cocktail party with the FED chairman and
like there little like status things
like that mean a lot to people and I'm
sure everybody listening could think of
examples of that just with regular
people they know you know like within
their little company or where whatever
um I I would say though that I think
along with so I don't disagree with
anything you said but I think along with
that there was um you know so if you if
you go back and read bill Buckley from
like in in the 50s there even back then
he was writing in like in right after
World War II about how look we
essentially the conservative movement it
probably wasn't called that yet but
essentially the conservative movement he
was like look we believe in limited
government and you know the Constitution
and being a normal country the problem
is we have the Soviet Union and because
we have the Soviet Union we have to all
be cold Warriors right now he actually
said we have to embrace a totalitarian
dictatorship in our own Shores in order
to fight off you can go look this up in
order to fight off the totalitarian
dictatorship abroad we have to create
our own military-industrial complex is
essentially his argument and this was
the entire justification for this
gigantic um Honeypot I mean not just
NATO but like the entire
military-industrial complex budget the
justification was NATO and is soon I'm
sorry the justification was the Soviet
Union and as soon as the Soviet Union
collapses I think there is this
Collective freak out from a whole bunch
of people who now have to justify their
job I I mean like what you know like
even just the existence of NATO didn't
make sense anymore once the Soviet Union
collapsed they were an organization to
defend against Soviet aggression well
there's no more Soviet Union and for the
you know there there were lots of people
um some liberals and some conservatives
and some like even in positions of power
or influence who were like oh okay great
the Soviet Union fell so now we can have
a big cut in defense spending I mean
this was the justification for how high
it was and now we can return to being a
normal country there was a lot of talk
of a peace dividend uh you can read this
in the uh the neoconservative writing in
the 9s where they were all like very
concerned about this that they're like
oh man like even up to like 96 when Bob
Dole was running and they're all uh
they're all kind of writing like oh man
like there's this there's such an
appetite in America to worry about our
own issues like whatever we don't have
to worry about running the whole world
now we can like kind of focus on issues
that we have here at home and
when there is that type of uh
environment I do think it makes you find
a lot of people going oh well look
Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait okay this
is a huge thing we have to go because if
that's a huge thing then all of a sudden
Your Existence is Justified again and so
I I just do think there is also like a a
money element to it however that plays
out psychologically that it's like oh
there's the you know there is a thing
where you see this all over the place I
mean if there's if if there's a whole
like movement to let's say or different
organizations um to combat racism well
what do you do when America becomes a
much less racist country than it used to
be do you go all right boys time to
close up shop we're all done here or do
you just turn up the hysteria and go
well we found five more incidences of
racism even though they all turn out to
be hoaxes or exaggerated or something
like that and so I think that's kind of
what happened with the military
industrial complex with NATO with all of
this it's like their reason for existing
disappeared and then they were like well
we got to replace that with something
else and much like with the racism stuff
the less of it that there organically is
the more you have to embellish and the
crazier you have to become because you
have to you know it's like oh so this
NASCAR guy got a noose hung in his
driveway you're like wait that doesn't
seem plausible it's like well I don't
know we got to find something because no
one's really fighting about this stuff
and so I think a lot of that is what
happened after the fall of the Soviet
Union that's uh that's very interesting
a lot of Confluence um I want to go back
to what you were saying about Bill
Buckley there's something interesting
there the impulse to rule the world is
something that I find um I find myself
constantly wanting to push back people
who I think trust themselves too much
what do you make of the impulse that and
I I I never know what name to give this
the elites the anointed class whatever
we need a a better name for um the sort
of psychological organizing principle
that they all fall under but it's the
sense of the nanny State there are some
people that are smart this is what I
think is their operating system there
are some people that are smart there are
some people that are dumb we are the
smart people we have to protect the dumb
people there's certainly an amount of
arrogance there it isn't just um we want
to help it's we're Superior and I don't
want to have to deal with your dumb
ideas so sh little boy be quiet and just
do as you're told um but what do you
make of the fact that these incredibly
intelligent people can say we need a
dictatorship on our own
Shores well it was uh to to be clear not
a dictatorship but he said a a
totalitarian bureaucracy was uh was his
term so but um better I mean honestly
you know with with Bill Buckley um I
mean the guy did work for the CIA and
then supposedly left and then came out
and said this stuff so I'm like I'm
certainly open to the possibility that
that was just a CIA operation to like
keep the whole thing going um in in
terms of broad like to your broader
question yeah I mean I think this is
kind of why the Lord of the Rings was
such a you know a br
uh example of this is that it's like
it's even for people who really want to
destroy the ring of power it's tough
once you get a hold of it I once you get
a hold of it I mean come on like I mean
if you could remake the world in your
image wouldn't your image be better than
you know than anyone else's and it's
very easy to rationalize that away and
to go well if I don't do this someone
else is going to do it and they'll do it
much worse I mean I I hear that
rationalization constantly when
defending the American Empire that's
like well I mean hey if we didn't do it
China would do it so therefore whatever
we're it's better it's got to be better
with us than with them and you know it's
very easy to to feel that way and it's
very rare this is why George Washington
is like uh you know revered because it's
very rare when there are people who even
and Washington had a lot of flaws but he
could have been a king and he chose not
to be and that in itself is so rare that
people are like whoa that's incredible
the idea that someone would have turned
down power that they could have had and
perhaps it's true that almost any
country in the position that the United
States of America was in the 90s would
have probably done the same thing that
if you had this opportunity to to rule
the world who's really going to turn
that down and or at least it would be
the rarest of of men who would turn that
down because they were like no listen
this isn't it's not the right thing to
do and it's not in our long-term
interest so yeah I think I think the the
desire to rule the world is something
that's existed for a long time and
there's there's no question I mean look
you don't really even have to um read
between the lines too much to look just
you know listen to anything in the G7
Summits or the wef or something like
that it's like yeah they're all talking
about ruling the world I mean they're
all they're talking about what
temperature it should be outside in a
hundred years and how they're going to
legislate what the what the temperature
can be in the year you know uh whatever
the year 100 years from now or whatever
and so it's uh it it's pretty I mean
they're talking about global regulations
I mean what is this rules for the entire
world to follow it's clearly they
animating you know like the animating uh
characteristic there is a desire for
global
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off and why is it a bad idea if they
really have the right answers why is one
Global government a bad idea well number
one because they don't have the right
answers and look I mean even if you even
if they did um I mean that if you were
to set up a one world government well
all it takes is one government going bad
now and the entire world is ruined you
know and so this is the the the like
decentralization of power and Liberty go
hand in hand and you you really never
have one without the other and the idea
that even if you were to put the most
perfect angels in ter in in charge of
the world it's like the old Lord Atkin
you know concept that power tends to
corrupt and absolute power corrupts
absolutely and so the idea that any
group of men are capable of ruling the
world and not being corrupted is at best
highly unlikely at worst completely
impossible and in the event that they
are corrupted if you have one uh world
government then you're in the you're in
the nightmare scenario which is that
everybody lives under a totalitarian
regime all right so during the Cold War
when we actually had two opposing forces
uh it did not feel safe in fact I would
say it certainly for Americans uh it has
felt way safer in a unipolar moment but
I've heard you say that
unipolarity is the problem uh is that
only true because there are so many
people that are not Americans or is the
unipolar moment actually bad for
Americans ourselves well I think it's
very I mean it's very bad for the
American people broadly speaking it's
probably been very good for Washington
DC and for you know giant corporations
who are connected to Washington DC um
and and I think there is some truth to
the fact that there it there was a
danger the danger of nuclear war um was
higher in the Cold War than immediately
after the Soviet Union fell I think now
because of these awful policies and
backing Ukraine we've we've brought that
risk back um so that's not good the the
thing is that that what the unipolar
moment allowed was for America to go on
a a type of global adventurism that that
they would not have been able to get
away with um beforehand there's a reason
why we didn't do anything like the
terror Wars before the Soviet Union
collapsed because there there was a
counterweight to us there was a
counterbalance to some degree and so
what you see after the Soviet Union
collapses is like this tremendous
expansion in American Warfare in
American spending and debt and money
Printing and all of this stuff and I
think that that has been very bad for
the nation it's been very bad for the
people in general and so that's that's
what I meant by saying that the unipolar
moment was kind of a disaster for the
American people um that doesn't mean
that the cold war is good there were
terrible things that happened during the
Cold War um
but you know if you just look at say
like in a 20year period roughly speaking
a little more than 20 years the fact
that America's fought a war in
Afghanistan in Iraq um in Libya in Syria
in Somalia in Yemen and in Niger and
Pakistan with the Drone bomb campaigns I
mean there simply just wasn't any there
wasn't anything quite like that during
the Cold War even with Vietnam and the
war in Korea and stuff like that it
wasn't like just war war war war war war
war in a 20-year period with this many
people dying and this much money wasted
and this much of a region of the world
totally destabilized and I don't think
you would have that in a non unipolar
world so that I think has been the real
disaster of all of
this and how do you see us getting out
of um the unipolar moment obviously for
us there there would be a potential
economic defeat that goes hand inand
with that so if it's bad for us but the
solution is potentially worse than the
disease what do we do about that
well I mean we're the way we actually
are getting out of it is that we are you
know kind of uh spending ourselves into
debt while pissing off a lot of the rest
of the world and now they're starting to
Ally with each other so that's what's
actually playing out this is probably
the least responsible way to end the
unipolar moment but I guess what I would
just say is like kind of the message of
optimism in all of this is that what
that moment allowed America to become
and it's not just that moment I mean
there's several other major factors um
being Go Nixon taking us off the gold
standard is a huge one that we're were
now we were also like perfectly
positioned it was like 20 years after we
went off the gold standard the Soviet
Union collapses so now not only are we
the world Empire but we also have this
fiat currency machine where we can just
print up as much money as we want to um
really nothing to kind of check
government excess um but I don't think
you know like I uh I think that both
logically we we can kind of deduce this
from the best economic thinkers and also
just empirically you can look at the
20th and even the 251st century and kind
of see that like what actually creates
wealth is um free markets cooperation
voluntary trade and what the government
class is is parasitic in nature they
take from produ of people by force or by
the threat of force and they uh
redistribute that money to people who
aren't producing and I'm not saying that
like I'm not saying like when I'm not
even thinking like these lazy bums on
welfare I'm thinking like these
billionaires on welfare um
but the the idea that like drastic Cuts
in government spending or something like
that or like a drastic reduction in the
power of Washington DC over the rest of
the world I don't think that would
really hurt um Americans I mean
obviously the transition might be a a
bit wild and that's never the best thing
but ultimately I think that on the other
side of that is that the the American
Empire is a a weight on the back of the
American taxpayer and so ultimately I
think that if that were to be greatly
reduced there would be a huge
Improvement in the Liberty and the
prosperity of regular people in this
country which is I think what we should
all care about a lot more than you know
those poor weapons
manufacturers uh so when you lay out
that vision for what we're doing now
that's taking us in the wrong direction
I don't see a way to reverse that pain
and suffering so
um do you see any way for us to get of
our debt spiral uh get out of our
addiction to spending money we don't
have by printing uh to not need the wars
to keep GDP pumped Skyhigh so that we
can justify the amount of money that
we're pumping into the system um do you
see a realistic way to reverse that or
because this is how it feels to me I am
watching something that plays out in a
really predictable debt cycle that Ray
Delio tracks
and it's it's I I don't want to be
defeatist but it does feel a bit like
the Emoji where you sit back with your
popcorn and you just watch what unfolds
because I don't see a way to pump the
brakes yeah I mean I I certainly get
your point and I I have that feeling at
times as well I think like one of the
things that really keeps me encouraged
is that all of this stuff
like as with all government
authoritarian policies all relies on
propaganda um it's very important to the
powers that be that they are able to
propagandize their citizenry and
convince them of things that are not
true to be true in order to justify
whatever the government policy is and
one of the things that we are living
through right now that we're kind of
participating in right now um is that we
live in a whole new world now where the
state's Monopoly on the control of
information has been broken really for
the first time and there are shows now
like yours that that have a huge
audience way way bigger than what a lot
of the corporate media Outlets uh are
getting these days and that the the
propaganda can totally be challenged
this is something that's just very
different than in the past and so that
gives me a a lot of optimism as far as
the actual system um you know look
related to my first point people are so
much more aware of how corrupt the
system is now than they've ever been
before people are so much more aware of
the deep State and the dishonesty of the
corporate media and how much Wars are
started based off lies um to the point
that everything is almost questioned now
and that leads to other problems but I
think uh in in total the the positives
outweigh the negatives and so how does
the whole thing how does this
unsustainable thing get
unraveled I don't know exactly but I
would say that there's you know using
the example of the Soviet Union I mean
there was a big powerful government that
controlled half of Europe and chunks of
the rest of the world and the whole
thing was gone and not too many experts
predicted 10 15 years before the
collapse of the Soviet Union that it
would be gone at by the early 90s and so
it is you know I think that the the
future always holds um uh I wouldn't say
unlimited possibilities but certainly
many more possibilities than any of us
are smart enough to foresee and that I
don't think it's that crazy that you
would have some type of radical
transformation in the United States of
America I mean we've already had a
radical transformation in this country
just in the last 30 years this is a much
different country than what I grew up in
in the 90s and I think that we're living
through some pretty incredible times
there's a massive um Awakening and
realignment happening right now and so I
do I I like to stay optimistic that we
could see something like a a radical
decentralization of power in this
country um and something that could make
it a much a much better Freer
place okay interesting I definitely want
to hear about the uh decentralization
what you mean about that I know a little
bit about your background as a
Libertarian uh but first I want to
address what I'll consider the elephant
in the room so if you're most worried
about World War III the thing I'm most
worried about is that the debt cycle
that we're in is is man it as close to
inevitable as you're going to get and I
forget the exact percentage but it's
like 84% of the time it ends in War uh
because what for people that um aren't
paying attention a lot to economics the
debt Cycle Works something like this
uh usually you just had a war and
because you just had a war all the debt
is wiped off the table and um everybody
starts over the table's turned over and
people start building up from scratch
now people don't have a lot but they
also don't have a lot of debt and so now
you get into this accumulation phase and
it becomes the the party time and people
start bringing on debt uh they
discovered that they can print money
especially if you're the reserve
currency like we are where you can
literally uh spread your losses
internationally uh through uh inflation
you're just adding money to the money
supply we don't have to get super deep
on that right now but um you keep
building up that debt bubble you keep
bringing on debt both personally at the
governmental level at the corporate
level and it gets to the point where we
are right now where even just servicing
the interest on the debt becomes next to
impossible so you are in a situation
where you have two options before you
you can hyperinflate your currency
because to make good on your debts you
will have to you you literally even if
you taxed everybody at 100% you would
not be able to meet your obligations so
you either have to hyperinflate the
currency or you have to default and the
only option that you have out of those
historically speaking is war and so it
can be a revolution or it can be uh a
World War I 2
three and when I look at the numbers
that America is putting up on the board
I'm like you have an inevitability that
you have to deal with so when I hear an
idea like hey we decentralize this I
don't know yet if I love that idea or
hate it I'll have to hear more about it
but we have to deal with the debt like
there must be a debt Jubilee in here
somehow and so you'll hear people say
that maybe the closest saying to the
debt Jubilee is going to be AI that Ai
and Robotics they basically are like an
untapped continent that we suddenly
discover hey and it's effectively Free
Labor it's complicated as to why that
would work but it would work um but
barring that I don't see a happy path
out of this what what do you see yeah
okay so first I would just point out
that look in in 1971 as I mentioned
Richard Nixon getting us off the gold
standard that was a a default I mean
that's they they painted it in you know
a different way but that's 100% what
that was is that we had said hey World
here that was the Brett Wood's agreement
right was that will be the world uh the
world Reserve you can Peg your currency
to the dollar and you can redeem your
dollar anytime you want uh $35 an ounce
per an ounce of gold and then when the
French wanted to come redeem it Nixon
was like no no we're not giving it to
you we don't have it it was a big giant
default they just spun it as like the
French are trying to undermine dollar
stability or something like that but it
was like yeah but this was the deal that
they were allowed to do it and anyway so
we certainly um I I'd say that a couple
things on that um number one I think
default is the best answer so I think
you're essentially right that you either
have default or you have um
hyperinflation default or inflation and
at this point with the level of debt we
have it would be hyperinflation um
default is not all sunshine and
but it's a lot better than
hyperinflation and it's a lot better
than starting a war to get yourself out
of it the thing that does encourage me a
little bit is that you know oftentimes
you'll hear the political class talk
about how divided we are and that's
certainly true but they talk about how
awful it is that we're so divided um the
whoever their candidate is is always
supposed to be a uniter um they also
talk about the problems with fake news
and all this stuff and I think what's
there there's an admission of truth
that's buried underneath there which is
that it it would be really really hard
for them to recreate say
2002 um in in 2002 for people who are uh
old enough to remember as I am um there
was a steady War beat uh a steady War
drums beat for the war in Iraq we didn't
invade till 2003 but all of 2002 was
spent laying the groundw so that you
would have to be crazy to not know that
Saddam Hussein had nuclear weapons and
he was in on 911 and he's about to pass
these nuclear weapons off you know he's
about to pass the weapons he doesn't
have off to the terrorists he's not
really friends with and they're going to
Nuke Kansas this is just a matter of
time literally the Vice President Dick
Cheney say it's just a matter of time
it's not a matter of if it's a matter of
when they and they got large enough
levels of support for the war in Iraq
that they were able to pull it off and
back then the New York Times was selling
it CNN was selling it Fox News was
selling it I mean they just
all powerful sources of information all
got behind this war push and of course
there was a tremendous um as there is
now but even a stronger push to demonize
anybody who was critical of the war if
you weren't with George W bush you were
with the terrorists they could not pull
anything like that off today and I think
that's why they're so upset that we're
uh you know that we're uh not unified
because when the time comes if you
really want to sell a war what you're
going to need is a massive propaganda
campaign and you're going to need to get
at least a large enough percentage of
your population behind your war that you
feel comfortable enacting the policy and
today we have Joe Rogan and Tucker
Carlson and like all of these people who
are like way way bigger than the entire
propaganda apparatus itself and they if
they were trying to lie us into war
again those guys would be the first ones
exposing it on their show and so that
does give me a little sense of hope that
I don't know how easy it would be for
them to pull off the you know leading us
into a next War based off lies um now
that doesn't mean it's impossible and
they couldn't do it and there wouldn't
be some type of ba based on that
assumption do you think if we had a uh
covid V2 that we wouldn't be lied into
submission with that I think it would be
much harder to do it again than it was
the the first time um you know they they
tried to float out another round of
lockdowns like kind of late into Co and
it was just like thoroughly you know
they do these things where they put out
like trial balloons you know they'll be
like articles about like well you know
Joe Biden is considering a national
vaccine passport and then like
everybody's up in arms and they're like
no no we weren't going to do that no
problem like they're always testing the
waters uh this happens a lot and I think
that again it's not that it's impossible
um but it would be much much harder to
do covid again than it was the first
time because a you know a a not
insignificant percentage of the
population now recognizes that they were
duped and and now Al doesn't trust any
of the people who sold that to them um
so I think it it's not impossible but it
would certainly be a lot
harder okay so um if we were going to
get across this Chasm somehow we unwind
the debt in some way that hopefully
isn't wildly traumatic um talk to me
about what does decentralized power look
like I'm assuming your answer will come
from a Libertarian framework so if you
you can give me the um the rubric by
which you're coming to the conclusion of
why this is better uh I would love to
understand that yeah sure well I mean
it's look I I think it's very consistent
with kind of the founding documents of
the United States of America and with
like the the basic premise being that
man ought to be free and that government
is an instrument of force and if
government is to exist its only
legitimate function is the protection of
of Liberty um decentralization it could
be on a spectrum I mean it it could mean
um secession and a national divorce of
of some sort in the most extreme form
but it also could just mean strong
federalism something that is still
enshrined in the Constitution but we do
not have at all anymore in this country
but the you know there's um I think
there's a thing some lawyer told me this
once but they said that on the bar if uh
if there's a multiple choice and the
answer is the 10th Amendment they say
that's always wrong like you never pick
the 10th Amendment if that's the answer
because that's just never how things
actually work but we do have an
amendment to the Constitution that says
hey like anything not expressly given to
the federal government here doesn't
belong to them then that's for the
states and for the people and I think
that particularly when you have such
strong cultural divisions in the country
that you're going to be like the a that
okay we're going to have an election
every four years and then whoever wins
rules over you so if my team wins then
you know whatever it's rural Alabama
rules over
Portland OR or Portland rules over rural
Alabama well that makes no sense on any
level and that's certainly not a recipe
for Liberty and so which much better is
to just accept that hey there are many
different cultures in this country and
that they they should not get to impose
their Wills on others it's really if you
think about it right the same it's just
the logical conclusion of what I was
saying before in in opposing One World
Government I mean if you're not for one
world government and you go well no we
have to have more competition well then
why shouldn't we just have a little bit
more and a little bit more and
ultimately I think that the more kind of
decentralized power is the more likely
you are to have a free prosperous
Society it's not it's not a coincidence
that the United States of America was
such a successful country and the model
that it was started off of was being
these United States like they're they're
all together in a union but there's all
of these different little States um that
all have their own constitutions and I
think particularly today as as you've
seen over the 20th century but really
drastically in the 21st century the a
lot of the problems we're facing are the
centralization of power in Washington DC
and what the antidote for that would be
a decentralization of
power it's really interesting there's a
story about Robert E Lee uh originally
not wanting to join the Confederate Army
uh he was considering going to the um
North and he ultimately was like I'm
just more loyal to my state than I am to
my country and I thought whoa that's not
something that you would hear a lot of
today um so heard understand that um out
of curiosity where do you think like is
50 states and a geographic region as big
as the United States is that the right
subdivision or would you want to and and
I'm talking not in theory in practice in
practice would you want to see that
subdivided farther much
farther yeah I mean I think I I think um
certainly like 300 plus million people
under one government is just way too
many people um so I you know so again I
know you're asking me not in theory but
in theory I'd like to see it divided as
small down as it could possibly go I'd
be happy to see it divided down to
Neighborhood blocks um in practice I
would support anything moving in that
direction however there's you know
there's also um there there's if we're
talking in practice then there's also
the reality that like okay the feds
might crack down on you so you want to
do this in an intelligent way where
you're not going to like you know have
your community invaded and and dominated
and brought back into the larger poity
um but but I do think that any of those
uh types of um any of those types of
divisions are good I think that if uh
it's probably not anytime soon going to
come in the form of secession but
anything where uh Texas just takes a
little bit more power for Texas to
regulate themselves than the federal
government or you know or California or
whoever I think that's a step in the
right
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[Music]
Theory um there's a book called
infomocracy uh and it contemplates a
world that's kind of like bology I don't
know if you know bology but bology
Sharina voson is a guy that talks about
something called the network State I man
you you will have a very strong reaction
to him I think you'll like him
um but you definitely should look him up
at at a minimum anyway this book uh the
uh
infomocracy Toys was some of the same
ideas of B's idea of the network state
where people really self-organize they
form essentially governments his thing
is that it's not necessarily
geographically uh that people will
Orient around it will be around a value
system where they connect to each other
over the network um but even if you take
that to be Geographic but at hyper
fragments like you were saying down into
the neighborhood that's what this book
contemplates it's a fiction book but it
did give me a Sci-Fi glimpse into what a
hyper uh decentralized world would look
like and if I'm honest it seemed just
unbearably burdensome to have to worry
about what's legal and not legal a block
away from you and so even if you're just
like walking to a mall which doesn't
happen to be on your block uh you might
have to pass through three different you
know block States
and I was just like oh my God like that
seems like an absolute nightmare now I
have tried to wrap my head around uh and
you're you have not said the word
Anarchist so I don't want to paint you
with this brush but I've tried to wrap
my head around some um uh Anarchist
principles from talking with Michael
malice and it's one of those where I get
it at the idea stage but I am left
asking looking at socities as like a
what we see is is the result of many
civilizations cities states countries
everything going through a long-term
evolutionary process and they all seem
to end in roughly the same place and I'm
just curious why don't we see large
scale um truly
libertine groupings is there something
about it that doesn't scale well I mean
okay so just to at the end there I mean
I I wouldn't be arguing for libertine uh
groupings much as uh just for
libertarian groupings which there isn't
differ yeah yeah I mean libertine
usually comes with a connotation of more
like free love uh and that type of stuff
but so I would I would say this so um
first Michael M's a very good friend of
mine and I do essentially agree with him
that I do I think that the ultimate goal
should be a voluntary society and if you
think about how essentially your your
interactions with everybody in your life
every type of business interaction and
personal every business relationship
every personal relationship you have in
your life down to the very very complex
ones are all completely voluntary except
for your relationship with criminals and
the government criminals and the
government are the only relationships
that you'll ever have in your life where
it is literally at the threat of
violence you are forced to do something
you're going to do something because
they will throw you in jail if you don't
do it they will ruin your life if you
don't do it they will shut down your
business if you don't do it and then of
course if you happen to be unfortunate
enough to interact with like criminals
and they pull out a gun and say give me
your wallet that's also uh you know a
relationship predicated on Force
everything else is voluntary this
podcast right now we have is a voluntary
reaction you know your people reached
out to my people and we set it up we're
across the United States of America
right now there's also a voluntary
relationship with our internet providers
with the people who we bought our our
microphones and computers and all of
this stuff with all of this and it's
pretty complex um and there really does
not seem to be any obvious reason to me
why I mean we all certainly recognize
that our relationships wi