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here's a thing that everybody should do
if they want to get rich but nobody
wants to listen to which is fascinating
to me is that amateur do lots of things
and Pros do the few right things and how
is that possible it's because Pros teach
other amateurs how to do all of those
little things that they don't need to do
and so they have leverage right so Pros
don't have to be busy amateurs do have
to be busy because they can't
differentiate what is right and
effective yet so I think there's this
portion of your life where you have to
you have to do incredible amounts of
hard work because you can't delineate
what is good versus what is busy work
and every one of us just needs to
realize that some point and the only way
you start to realize what is good versus
busy work is through skill acquisition
one of the skills of which is what is
effective versus what is just filler and
so you know you don't even you don't
even have to pick up numerous skills you
can be like what Charlie M and Warren
Buffett talk about which is making 3 to
five really high signal to noise bets
over your entire career and sitting
lazily on your asses for the rest of the
time I mean mker talks about all the
time that in fact their strategy is only
one thing which is when they see big
risk they go in huge if they think that
risk can be rewarded and they do not go
in if they they do not see a huge risk
reward so they just are professional
nosay and that's because they learn to
differentiate the difference between
busy busy work and good work and I think
that is where most people should strive
can you strive to actually determine
what actions to take that will make
movements or change and it's really
really easy to say but hard to do I mean
think about it in your business in my
business every single day there's a two
to-do list so big I will never ever
finish it and I have to determine every
single day what is one thing that if I
do it becomes the folr on which I get to
place a lever that moves a giant boulder
and if I can't
continuously get closer to that one
thing the business will fail and I think
that's how most of us are is we have to
be able to figure out what does a
fulcrum look like what does a lever look
like and what do just a bunch of pebbles
look like that are going to do nothing
for me and that's actually quite
hard okay skill acquisition matters a
lot yeah getting that leverage matters a
lot we've painted uh a dark picture
about where we're going but I don't
think either of us are afraid paranoid
yes uh because only the paranoids
survive but when I say I'm paranoid what
I mean is I'm trying to see the angles
yeah I'm not taking that it's going to
happen easily for granted yeah so I my
channel can be rightly accused of quote
unquote Doom and Gloom but I'll just
blame all of you [ __ ] because
that's all you click on in a headline uh
but the what I hold myself accountable
to is every word out of my mouth is
something I actually believe so I
believe all the things that I'm saying I
just don't have uh crippling fear the
only thing that that maybe unnerves me
even though I'm a huge proponent of it
is AI we'll get to that later so anyway
uh potentially quote unquote dark period
coming from a recession standpoint I say
dark because a lot of people who aren't
paranoid who either don't have the
intellect or have not put the time in or
just don't have the right set of ideas
whatever they're going to get blindsided
love too many of those people so it it
it does appear as a dark time to me
however you have a quote from Baron
Rothchild uh that I think Bears bringing
up yeah buy when there's blood in the
streets even if the blood is your own
maybe especially when it's your own and
he became a Titan of Industry uh
probably one of the richest men ever on
an inflation adjusted basis so I think
he did okay and uh you know I was
thinking I I pulled some some data for
us uh for this conversation today
because here's the thing
if you haven't been if you haven't been
through a recession yet uh you're going
to survive this next one too I mean if
you look historically and we can show
this graph too we we survived 90 99 two
you know 2020 2008 those were just the
recessions during my working years and
if you look at what happened after all
of those recessionary periods not all of
them bounced back in a v-shaped recovery
but all of them have bounced back and so
the best predictor of the future is the
past it's not perfect but it's likely
that we will continue to sur survive as
a country and as individuals just like
we have historically and so I think even
though it's scary out there realizing a
sale is coming can also be really really
powerful what do you mean sale when the
market goes down everything becomes
cheaper you already seen that Austin's
one of the worst hit real estate cities
in the country so if you're looking to
buy real estate in a market that has
Tesla moving to it that has Dell that
has a bunch of Google headquarters uh
moving to it a bunch of Facebook
employees moving to it a bunch of AI
it's like one of the defense AI um
centers of the country but it's you know
the average uh house in Austin's down
somewhere between 20 to 30% and so what
does that mean well interest rates are
coming down and houses are 20 to 30%
cheaper and so you can buy a house for
less money at less interest rates than
you could a year ago and probably your
pay hasn't gone down by 20 to 30% and so
in this market you're going to have a
bunch of opportunities to buy things at
sale and most people get their money I
sort of think about it like the
unprepared transfer their money to the
prepared during downturns and so if you
do not listen to channels that are Doom
and Gloom about what might come then
when it comes one you won't recognize it
two you won't act on it and three you
will actually lose from it because
somebody else will take advantage of
your panic and so one of my biggest
missions is just getting people to see
the pattern because once you see oh look
this happened in 2008 it happened in
2020 it happened in 99 it happened in 90
and by the way there's signals right now
that show the same thing well then you
might be prepared for what's coming and
it might not scare you when you see that
you know auto loans are at the highest
level since the last recession uh auto
loan uh defaults that you might not see
that credit card delinquencies are at
all-time highs and that might not scare
you you might instead go okay well
something's coming on sale so how can I
make sure I have enough cash to do
something with how can I Circle up a
couple friends so we can make a smart
investment and property during this
period because the other thing that's
interesting those big scary people we
talk about all the time Black Rock
Blackstone all the big companies they
get a credit crunch too you know they
they cannot get as much access to
Capital as they can during normal
markets so that's another one there's
very few times where the poor get to
steal from the rich and one of them is
in a downturn if the poor are actually
thoughtful enough about preparing for it
and you can't do it in a big way but you
know most of America will die broke
alone and fat and so if that's the case
one smart house acquisition one smart
multif family acquisition is enough to
set up a family for generations and it's
just continuing to take those small
steps in a period where most people are
acting
emotionally walk us through so you are
um I've heard you speak to people before
like this this is the time you need to
be ready as you were just saying but you
also need to act so what is your very
unique
brrt uh strategy for not only getting
through a recession but really taking
advantage of it yeah so we have a a
strategy about how to buy businesses
during a recession and we talk about you
buy a recession resistant business so
think a plumbing company a landscaping
company a company that you work in you
could even buy part of it during a down
period where maybe your boss needs a
little bit of capital or your boss needs
you to go out and bring in more clients
for them
and you do that in a recession resistant
sector you raise prices because most
small businesses are underpriced
somewhere from 30 to 300% and you add
technology and this generation in
particular like if you are young and
hungry you are 10 to 20 to 100x more
Tech competent than the average small
business owner and so your ability to
work alongside one or take over a small
business and add technology that makes
things cheaper faster better is probably
quite High I mean in fact I was with
this cleaning company this week that we
might invest into and all these guys did
their their window cleaning they're a
window cleaning company they went from
uh unemployed laid off during covid uh
from pretty good jobs and uh no money
you know trying to figure life out their
first year in business in a window
cleaning company they did $200,000 in
Revenue the next year they did $500,000
in Revenue this year they'll do
somewhere between $700,000 and a million
do in revenue and these are two kids
that are both sub 28 years old one with
a newborn baby on the way and how did
they do it they added incredible social
media marketing so they do really funky
videos they added really incredible
branding and Merchandising because can
you name one window cleaning company of
course not nobody can so how could you
as a young person get on board with a
business that's very simple but hasn't
been sexed up by the internet and hasn't
been sexed up by adding technology and I
think those are all around it's just on
the internet I think people look down on
those types of businesses because we
were told for so long let's go become a
doctor a lawyer let's go to school let's
go to college what if you're actually
happier with a little dirt under your
fingernails in a company that you own
where you get to get out of your house
occasionally away from a screen and get
to know your neighbors and your
community turns out you might be happier
than working at Mackenzie or Bane for 60
hours a week under somebody else's
thought
and that is something that not enough
young people I think know yet it's
really interesting I think you've got
your finger on something that is that is
going to be a cultural shift of massive
proportions I had a friend over last
night um shout out to Dean who was
walking me through his new thesis so
he's he's done everything in from um
helping Finance films creative producing
to spaxs to traditional investing I mean
just all all over the place and he was
like hey I've got a new thesis and um he
was like we're going through this really
interesting transitional time you can to
have a ton of baby boomers retiring but
they're not going to have anyone to pass
their business on to you've got a lot of
people frustrated this going to start to
sound familiar here uh working
traditional jobs they don't want to be
in Investment Banking and so the new
play is going to be skip College buy a
business and I said my friend I have
somebody you need to talk to um but I
imagine a lot of people listening to
this if they're new to your world that
is going to sound
ridiculous especially in a time where
we're going into a recession so if they
don't have access to money they've never
bought a business never run a
business why would this be a good idea
how do you um for a second just you're
here to persuade you're here to help
make that Revolution actually come true
what do you tell people first I say
don't do it if you don't like pain
because owning a small business is
painful owning any business is pain
owning any business is painful and there
will be nights that you will regret it
but here's the flip side the second that
somebody tells you you shouldn't do it
and yet they are an owner or they run
their own business you ask them why
didn't you go back to being an employee
for somebody else and they won't have a
good answer they'll say well I'm
unemployable well I had no other choice
and the best don't listen to what people
say listen to what people do and what
people do is when they get a taste of
Freedom they either either want to
partner with other people on more deals
and businesses or they want to work for
companies that they're obsessed with
they don't want to have to work for
companies that they don't like doing
things that they don't want to do for
money anymore and so I will say it's
painful but it is worth it and that for
most people running a small business is
not rocket science especially today I
think it's never been easier to start a
small business uh as evidenced by the
amount of businesses that have been
started somewhere between like two to 5x
the number of businesses that were
created over the last three years as the
past 10 years and that's just determined
by like LLC and entity creation but it's
never been harder to have a pro uh
profitable business so most small
businesses 90% of them never even hit
the $1 million Mark oh and so with that
out there I've always had this idea of
well it's really hard to figure out
product Market fit in a small business
right like most businesses somewhere
between 30 to 40% of them die because
they couldn't find product Market fit
just they had an idea and nobody wanted
their idea right and so I'm kind of like
that I don't I don't know that I have a
crazy idea that somebody's going to want
to buy I never had that and so instead
I'm like why don't I just buy a couple
of these small businesses and I can
partner with the founder of the small
business and I know that somebody
already wants it because they have
revenue and it's profitable and I could
just help it grow and so we see that
again and again and again but nobody
taught us this in school because it's
there's risk right you when you go and
get a job at Mackenzie or Bane there's
no risk of you losing money you know
they're going to pay you a salary which
is largely guaranteed unless you get
fired and yet when you go and buy a
small business you could lose money and
you could not make money and you could
owe money from debt and so I think
people are so scared of that they're
they're terrified of failing and my
point is like the US actually has an
incredible system called bankruptcy
which a lot of of of countries don't
have this is an ability for you to wipe
the Slate if a business doesn't work out
for you well what's the best time to
wipe the Slate when you really don't
have anything anyway so when you're
young and you don't have a lot going on
I don't know why you wouldn't take a
huge risk and try to buy into a business
try to earn into a business because
you're because you're a general
contractor and you work in a
construction business and you can't
progress any further in the construction
business so you go to a competitor that
you realize is 65 years old plus and you
say to him hey what are you doing with
your business are you gonna sell it at
some point are you gonna run it forever
are you gonna give it to your son no
you're not well maybe somebody like me
could buy into part of your business and
I could earn into it using the profits
and pay you out over time like would you
ever consider something like that and it
turns out small business owners don't
have other options if they're under $10
million in revenue for the most part and
so there's a lot of these small
businesses that will just close as
opposed to get transferred and I think I
think you know by now we've taught I
don't know five six thousand people how
to buy businesses across our courses and
um and our Mastermind and they bought
something like $262 million in Revenue
wow yeah and these are people who are
like former teachers Engineers um
they're doing seller financing they're
doing SBA Loans and what I've realized I
can almost tell immediately if somebody
will be successful at it or not like if
they'll buy a business or not and the
way I can tell if they will be
successful or not is do they complain
about how much work it is and if they
say this is a lot of work you know I
just kind of want the deal to fall in my
lap you're probably not going to be
successful buying a business the ones
that say that they're willing to do the
work it's fascinating I haven't seen one
of them go sideways yet we've seen three
people's deals go sideways and all of
those were because they didn't want to
keep working on the business and so I
think I think hard work is really an
underrated an underrated thing in a
society that wants nobody to work and
everybody to take do you have a mental
model for why that is why everybody
wants that these days not necessarily
why they want it though maybe that's
part of the answer but why you're I
think you're rounding hard work to
something yeah um I don't think you
literally just mean work hard but since
we've already gone into detail on that
so whatever that thing is that you're
rounding it to do you have a mental
model for why that's so important I see
what you mean well one of my favorite
questions to ask when I interview people
is when was the last time you worked all
night on something by your choice and
what was it what did you do literally
for me like well yeah for you I know
what it was for you though I bet uh the
last time I worked through the night
it's a good question I think that was
for the comics that was the last time
because we had a deadline to pitch yeah
and so I had to hit that deadline yeah
yeah that was the last time it through
the night and you know what would be a
fun thing is there are many people I bet
listening to this that would say I have
never worked through the night for
something I've never wanted something so
bad that I was willing to sacrifice
sleep for one night which like Brian
Johnson is not going to like you know he
wants us to sleep which I get it from a
health perspective but there is such a
joy in working on something that is
really hard but really fun and you know
my husband is uh former military and and
a Navy SEAL and when I look at his
relationships I'm in awe of them his
friendships from that time you know
they've become my best friends they stay
with us we stay with them we're great
you know we're God Parents to his kids
we have this this tight-knit community
that's almost possible to break if I
needed to bury a body they would just
ask me the coordinates and they would be
there and um and the reason that he has
that is because they went through
something really hard together and
people wonder why they I mean the youth
I read this quote the other day the
youth today especially young women sub30
say that uh not a single person really
knows them not one single person we have
a crisis of of friendship and family in
the US and Faith lowest levels of that
across the board and I was talking to
Arthur Brooks the other day who just
wrote a book with Oprah who's one of I
think the great thinkers on happiness
Oprah or Arthur Arthur and and Arthur
said there's four things that determine
happiness and that is Faith Family
friendships meaningful friendships uh
and work that serves and he's like we've
done Decades of research on this at both
Harvard and at AI where he was
previously and he's like and so it's no
surprise that people are more unhappy
than they've ever been because they feel
more disconnected than they ever have
because they have no purpose in their
life and nobody to share it
with all right so that was a response to
me asking the thing you call hard
work is the under appreciated thing and
we ended up talking about faith and
family and friendship that's really
interesting so um I'm going to
see if I can tease apart the way that
you think yeah okay so part of this is
you have a base assumption that working
hard is in and of itself if tied to a
thing that you love is the reward in and
of
itself yeah is it love first hard work
second or is hard work in your mind an
inescapable need that's a good question
I know this
that every everyone has had a moment
where they're so miserable working on
the thing that they're working on that
they almost can't stand it any longer
they just want to quit they do quit they
make irrational decisions because their
their misery gauge at work is so high
and I've felt that before and if I go
back and think about why did that hard
work not make me happy what what was the
root cause of that I think it is at the
moment in which you feel like you have
nothing else that you're learning so I
coordinate hard work with learning I'm
usually learning something if I'm
working hard at something I coordinate
that with working on something that
matters so if I if I've lost my why for
why I'm working and then lastly if I'm
working with people that I don't aspire
to be or don't want to be around so it's
sort of this like people purpose and
this learning component that if I have
those three things the hard work is
really fun but if I don't have those
three things then perhaps the hard work
feels futile unnecessary and more like
labor than work I'll be curious to hear
if this resonates with you there's a
spiritual component to your mission to
get people to consider buying small
businesses that now I'm I've always
known that was true but I didn't know
why it was true um now teasing that
stuff out so some of this is a an aspect
of a life well-lived for you yeah I
think that's true like did you ever work
in a cubicle yes yeah did you work in a
cubicle when you didn't work for
yourself yes have you seen the Tucker
Carlson response to um oh gosh
postmodernist architecture uh I've no
but I've seen the headlines now you make
me wish that I had clicked it's
beautiful I can send you the clip
afterwards if people are curious but but
basically um he's in an interview with
somebody can't remember and he says post
modernist architecture is a um I'm going
to simplify meant to suck your soul out
yeah it's basically like it's it's um
yeah meant to demise Humanity you know
postmodernism is a direct affront to
humanity it wants to suck the human out
of us and how he ends it is he basically
says and no privacy at all and then he
says very intensely it is because they
do not value you they do not value you
as a human you are a number nothing else
to them and that is why po modernist and
cubicles demoralize humans because they
are showing you with their actions that
you mean nothing you mean nothing to
them and when I watched that I thought
God as a creator of things which is how
I think about building and what we do
here too everything that I put my name
on is like a little piece of me right
the things that I'm creating with my
hands there's a reason that I'm doing it
I only have so many seconds and minutes
and hours in my life in fact we have
very few of them them and so why would
we put our workers in these instances
that show that we don't care about them
at all that it's like copy repeat copy
repeat copy repeat and I'm a capitalist
so I understand the idea of of profits
and losses and needing to be Capital
efficient but I also really believe in
humans and I believe in our ability to
elevate one another and that if I find
Tom in his zone of Genius
in a place that has power for for Tom I
believe in the power of place then I
will have a Tom that outperforms on an
incredible level and I don't mean
distractions which is where I think
Google and all of them got it wrong
foosball and nap chairs and whatever we
don't need to be children that when we
stop working we have to go play around
with something else in order to distract
ourselves from our work we don't need
that but we do need to see beauty around
us because we're capable of it and why
wouldn't we and so I think you're right
there is part of this that I think is
almost spiritual and the place where I
found the most Flow State just like
athletes do when they when they do their
craft I find the same thing when I'm
caught in work that means something and
I think for people to say you should
have work like balance you should not
work all the time you know that that is
is bad for your mental health it's like
what the [ __ ] do you know about what
flow is is Flo netflixing and drinking
on Friday evenings because it doesn't
have to be but if it's if that's for you
let it be you and I'll do me yeah that's
not Flo um Flo I will say has a
definition but uh that won't be met by
that anyway probably not the important
part of that um the spirituality so I
can feel you trying to make the world a
better place which I love it is very
much why I do what I do as I said
earlier I think we are in a battle for
ideas yeah uh one of the ideas so
everything is Downstream of ideas so
they grip us at the individual level
they grip people at the collective level
and so it really matters what we push
and promote um you have a very unique
stance on hey there's a thing that
you're probably not thinking about
that's not currently in the Zeitgeist as
the cool thing to buy the boring
business the Gateway business that will
make you realize that these are being
run by people no smarter than you to
sort of Co-op the Steve Jobs quote um I
think that's really important and I
think that marrying that back to your
message is going to be really important
so that people understand hey I'm trying
to me Cody Sanchez I'm trying to reach
out into your soul and help you find
that path to the thing you secretly want
which I Tom Bilu will round to
fulfillment I think that's what
everybody wants and so I have a mental
framework for why hard work is so
important I think we have an
evolutionary algorithm that runs in our
mind that absolutely mandates that we
work hard and that nature only has two
levers Pleasure and Pain nature over God
God knows how many hundreds of thousands
millions of years has been shaping us
from amoeba to now uh saying surviving
is going to be hard and my job as nature
is to keep you alive long enough to have
kids that have kids so there are going
to be certain things that I'm going to
incentivize and if you get a tremendous
dopamine rush or whatever when you work
really hard and make progress towards a
goal now all of a sudden you're going to
want to do that because man if you ever
watched a TV show alone no I need to
like start getting a a kickback from
Amazon who I think hosts a show I talk
about this so much that gives a real
glimpse into what all of humanity was
like until like a thousand years ago I
mean it is hysterical how hard it is to
stay alive to just like find enough
calories to live it's bananas you don't
have to go I read so much history you
don't have to go much more than a
hundred years back in time to hear where
it was like oh we were just trying to
get from here to Oregon uh you know and
we were suddenly eating slugs oh and
then we ran out of those and so we had
to eat each other as we died it's like
yo so we all play that game didn't we
yeah orgon Trail uh so life is a level
of hard that we don't understand so
Evolution had to make doing hard things
internally rewarding so that we just
have this algorithm that says oh you
work really hard well done good on you
and if you aren't working hard it's
going to feel wrong that's part one part
two is entropy and if I could come up
with a simpler word but that that really
is the right word meaning that all
things are fighting against
you uh if you want to jump high gravity
Yanks you back down if you want to start
a business other people are going to
start a similar business if you're doing
well people are going to copy you one of
my favorite stories from our time at
Quest so when we launched Quest We
Looked ridiculous compared to all the
other um companies in the health and
nutrition space they all looked what we
call veins and chains so it was all
aimed at bodybuilders nobody was using
food porn it was just all tough guys big
muscles veins bulging literally chains
draped around their neck red and black I
mean taking a page out of Hitler's
Playbook which if you've never read
minec I'm really doubling up on my uh
learning from the psychopath day here uh
but he just lays out like oh this has a
certain psychological reaction so we're
like we're going to be everything that
that's not we're going to be uh blue
because it Peaks creativity we're going
to be food porn we want to feel like
welcoming and inviting and we did so
well three years later I walked to
somebody else's booth at a trade show
because I thought it was ours and I was
like these [ __ ] like they've
literally just copied everything that
we're doing yep so anyway you get
everything is fighting against you and
if you don't get real pleasure out of
working hard you just won't ever be able
to overcome entropy it it will there are
just so many things figh fighting
against you and so to to be able to run
a business is really what you've said
hard work and what I call the physics of
progress which is just it's iteration
you you it it's very important that you
do the steps but if you can work hard
and run the physics of progress you
really can pull this off but I think
people need to contextualize oh this is
a spiritual journey I'm doing this is
somebody who's pursuing fulfillment I'm
doing this as somebody who looks out at
this particular moment which I certainly
do I think you share and we're at a
Tipping Point for the wrong ideas taking
a hold of people and so we're talking
about business recession etc etc but
this is really about what ideas should
win yeah and hard work recognizing you
can buy a business if you so choose if
autonomy is a major driver for you it
could be a real path out but I I think
if people fail if people just hear the
cha-ching of the cash register and they
don't understand that you're speaking to
their soul as much as you're speaking to
their pocketbook they'll get lost yeah I
mean I think one of the best books of
all time for that is Atlas Shrugged
which has had some political connotation
which I don't know why um because it
really is about this idea of the joy and
finding the thing that you are uniquely
built to create on this planet and um
you know there's one quote I love from
it that's to summarize it's basically
like like what a tragedy to let your
spark go out Spark by Irreplaceable
spark in the shadows of the could bees
the wha ifs the May bees if you run a
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free today and and that always stuck
with me of this idea of man at the end
of the day I hope I show up at the
Pearly Gates rung dry saying to God I
had not one drop left which was a
paraphrase from an Emma Emma Bombeck
quote that I is one of the quotes I go
back to a lot which just like what else
is in there like having this curiosity
for yourself about what else are you cap
capable of doing is so powerful you know
every time I was just at at lunch with
with one of my team members and my
husband and we were talking about what
was the hardest thing you've ever done
like the hardest thing you've ever done
think about like one instance and you
know we talked first physically and so I
remember one of mine it was like hiking
a mountain I was super miserable it was
blizzarding it was a very high mountain
there were creases you know whatever and
it turns out I don't like hiking I don't
like the cold and I don't like heights
right and so it was just like it was
miserable you had to poop in a bag you
know it was just like not fun multiple
days you lost me at pooping in a
bag but I'm glad I did it because I need
to have more of those hard moments to
realize how lucky we have it in life and
I do think we're kind of as humans we're
we kind of forget how lucky we have it
we have such short-term memory to
history which we do not study enough and
even to our own history remembering what
we've been through before and thus are
probably capable of doing in the future
you know but I I remember we have a
company called Main Street holding
company where we own all of our small
businesses and that's where we buy other
people's businesses or invest in other
people's businesses and you know I
remember almost every single one of
those businesses at some point having a
moment where I thought we were going to
lose everything you know I remember one
company approachment where you know we
got all of our money stolen from from a
guy that we thought we were best buds
with you know um and then was like kind
of public about it and how how much that
hurt you know I remember when we had our
first car wash deal go through and we
thought we were going to sell for a huge
amount of money and then the whole thing
fell through and then you know we almost
didn't have the we didn't have the grit
to like keep going you're so close to
the Finish Line it's like seeing the
marathon right in front of you end and
then all of a sudden they're like just
get in 10 more miles you know and we
weren't ready for that and so I remember
all of those hard moments and I think
those Build You Up and enable you to
kind of keep going and you build up
these calluses right it's just like
weights at the gym at some point like
you don't feel them as much and anytime
I feel it too much I go to a book from a
great like we were talking before I'm
reading Ted Turner's book call me Ted
right now and it's incredible because he
goes through like the things that uh
bother you know he he goes through his
difficulty like it's Tuesday then he's
like well then we lost a100 Million
Dollar on the games over there and then
he literally says it like that moves to
the next line and I like rewound it a
couple times and I said to myself I want
to be so big and have created so much
wealth and prosperity that I can say we
lost $100 million on that you know think
about that but there's a guy out there
who that is the way that he thinks and
then for all those people who are like
crunchy granola hate making money you
know think the world's going to end all
about climate change what did he do with
his billions he owns now the biggest
bison Preserve in the world and has
single-handedly brought back almost the
level of bison in his area which I think
is is Wyoming um so guess what money can
do a lot of good too no doubt
um what is the single hardest thing
you've
done
um the single hardest thing I ever did
was get divorced when I went through
that previously um so that was
emotionally the hardest thing I've ever
done you know you make a promise to
somebody you say you're going to be
together for life and then you break
that promise and I I tend to try to keep
my promises and so that was really hard
for me and did you initiate I did yeah
and realizing that you know when you're
young and your prefrontal cortex is not
fully developed and you listen to what
everybody else says your life should be
as opposed to having your own internal
guiding Frameworks Creed uh vision for
life then it's very easy for somebody
else to supersede theirs on top of you
and I think that's what I allowed happen
to me I superseded my families on top of
me my mom's you know his and I tried to
be uh a painting that somebody else
painted as opposed to my own and I think
that happens to a lot of young people
because we don't spend that much time
asking ourselves like who do we want to
be what do we stand for what does our
name it mean and uh what do we actually
want to work towards and we we would be
time would be better spent in
universities if we spent more time on
that as opposed to amibas and
Pythagorean theorems how do you come to
know
thyself I honestly I don't know another
way besides doing things
so hard that it feels uncomfortable
constantly and then deciding if you want
to keep doing those things or not you
I've only ever learned about myself
through negation I don't like this
because I tried it and that wasn't great
I don't like this because I tried it and
that wasn't great I'm not smart enough
to go I like that and I want to go after
that I kind of have to trial the things
and realize I don't like them and then I
sort of pingpong my way to finally
something that I think is me and so um I
think that's a lot of us too and it's
okay to varied career paths it's okay to
make a lot of mistakes you just try to
not make ones that are lifetime early
and so you know I'm a big proponent of
marriage being married is the best thing
that ever happened to me this go round
and the strongest partner I have by far
has ever been Chris in any sense of the
word um but I probably wouldn't have
made that decision that early without
fully knowing myself through having gone
through a lot of hard things and
realizing what I was willing or not
willing to continue you've got to get
your calendar right like if you don't
maintain uh if your calendar doesn't
reflect your actual priorities you're in
real trouble so I keep a list that I
call important things yeah and the
important things are what is the most
important thing that I could be working
on right now and I will just tell any
any stage entrepreneur but certainly
beginning stage entrepreneurs you're
going to have trouble prioritizing and
the reason you're going to have trouble
prioritizing is because you think you're
dumb but in reality the problem is no
one's going to prioritizing till they've
done it a lot and then you begin to get
a sense of okay this is the to quote Tim
F this is the lead Domino if I do this
thing it'll make everything that comes
after it easier so you'll start to
identify those things and you're going
to do those until you can't do them
anymore either from fatigue or there's
just nothing more to do and now you're
waiting for somebody to come back to you
whatever then you move on to the second
thing but I find everybody gets
paralyzed by I don't know what to put in
first place and so now you have seven
things in first place and so I and I
constantly fight with my team about this
you stop [ __ ] being weak like what's
number one like you're allow yourself to
be emotionally paralyzed because you're
like oh it's all important yes
[ __ ] but you can only execute on
one thing at a time so what's that one
thing and so I'm just ruthless about
that yeah so the beginning of my day so
I'm up usually at 4:00 4:30 in the
morning I don't let anybody on my
schedule until 9:00 a.m. 9:30 if I can
push it Y and then I don't let anybody
on my schedule after 1: p.m. I like that
so there's a narrow window where I've
already gotten four to 5 hours worth of
work in the beginning so I'm doing my
most important [ __ ] all execution then I
take meetings I make sure everybody's m
moving and they have whatever questions
they need answered and then I'm [ __ ]
in it I'm in product and I'm in
marketing those are the two things I'm
just like obsessively focused about and
so I'm available I'm with the team which
by the way I'm going to guess because of
how many businesses you own you don't
operate like this during covid I was
like word go wherever you want you can
move away no big deal now I'm like
[ __ ] you better get in the
office like we are back in a big way it
is so inefficient to not have people
here yeah well we we just bought an
office in Austin for the same reason
I've especially found you know I have an
incredible team cuz they'll tell me
they'll be really honest about it like
one of the guys on my team who runs part
of the creative thing he's like yeah I'm
just I just don't work as hard when I'm
not in the office I'm like I can't
believe you just said that to my face
but also thank you right and uh and and
I think it's true because most all of us
have willpower issues and all of us can
benefit from a little eye over the
shoulder and the reason why I think we
can really benefit is because I remember
when I was at Goldman Sachs and they
were watching us like crazy I was never
on social media I was never [ __ ] off
because I wanted to get out of that
office I knew I was going to have to do
long hours and I wanted to get out of
there when I was done I never understood
the Silicon Valley foosball make them
stay here all the time thing I'm like
come here give it intense maybe do a
workout break or a walk in between come
back to intense and then go live your
life you know and if you're like me
you're going to work way more than that
but like be here when you're going to be
here like think about work like medit
you should be so singularly focused that
all distraction sort of Fades away and
if you do that then you actually have to
you have to work less because you're so
much more effective but I remember early
on in my career you know it's why I
couldn't stay at Vanguard actually
because I was sitting at a desk and I
was trying I was like you know those
Ducks where underneath the surface
they're paddling like crazy but on top
they're smooth that was me I was
drowning I didn't know anything about
Finance I'd come from journalism I
everybody was smarter than me everybody
went to Harvard and Stanford Etc I went
to Arizona State Harvard of the West as
you said um and uh and I remember one of
the my teammates came up and was trying
to talk to me about lunch planning and
stuff and I was like CeCe I I'm focused
I don't have time to talk about any of
this I'm I'm here man we could talk like
after work but like I'm here right now
and that happened like a few times and I
wasn't be trying to be a jerk I just
couldn't be distracted because then I
lost my focus entirely and I probably
have a little ADHD and so it would
derail me for like 30 40 minutes and I
remember that happened and then my boss
at one point was like your team thinks
that you would leave dead bodies behind
you and I was like huh really why
they're like well you don't pay
attention when they come up to your desk
you don't do party planning I was like
guy I am here to do a job and I am going
to I would never like run over somebody
to do the job but I will be singularly
focused to get it done and so that is I
think what it takes that or are you cuz
now as a CEO I have to imagine yeah you
got to make people feel a little more
warm and fuzzy or have you found a way
to be like yo I have good people who are
more warm and fuzzy than I am so I found
in life like you are who you are kind of
and every time I try to become somebody
that I'm not first of all it comes off
as inauthentic and second of all it
doesn't really work so if I come in and
I'm too warm and fuzzy nobody's going to
buy it um I am fun I think like I'm
aggressive but I'm fun so I'll I'll make
jokes and I do something every Monday
called the the compass and basically
it's just a little PowerPoint 10 minutes
that I give to the whole team and in it
are a few things like our culture code
every single week I go through what the
13 values are I pick like one one person
who wins like something for one of our
values um and in that there'll be some
funky fun stuff for each of them and so
I will like I will cheerlead the [ __ ]
out of the company during that period um
but when somebody needs a hug they know
not to come to me about it for sure um
now I think the Counterpoint to that is
I've always taken care of my people like
as long as you are good to your
teammates and to the company like I will
have your back like if you need a new
job and this isn't the place for you I
will help you find a new job I won't
fire you like I will handhold you um you
know if you have a health issue I'm
going to take care of you but like I
don't think you have to be warm and
fuzzy I also hire like a lot of we're
really h about who we are in interviews
which I think is really really and if if
you you know I was a terrible employee
at Vanguard because they're super touchy
feely you know kind of
socialists and I liked Goldman I liked
capitalist kind of jerks but they're
really smart and uh so I liked that I
wanted the pressure and so now when
people come and interview with us I'm
like hey like talk to me about like your
favorite moment of pressure talk to me
about when you did the thing that felt
unreasonable to get the goal and I tell
them UPF front our interviews start with
all the things that are terrible about
the company and why I'm awful to work
for and if they still like it after that
then they might be a win but otherwise
at least they know you know we have a
very similar thing so it's our culture
dock you can't come into interview
unless you've read it oh I like that
yeah oh yeah and the funny thing is uh
I've had multiple people say hey we've
lost a lot of candidates when they read
the culture do and I'm like that's the
point because I want them to know who we
are and if you're not about that life
then this is not the place for you I I
am trying to win a championship nothing
short I'm not trying to be in also ran
I'm not trying to play and get a
participation trophy I'm flat out I'm
trying to beat Disney yeah and that that
is a big task and the odds of success
are very low and so I want to have fun
but I also want to be surrounded by
hardcore [ __ ] that are here to
win and the document says exactly that I
love that and uh yeah it is very
aggressive and so yeah we have weeded
people out but what I always say to the
people saying like hey are we sure like
this thing is really aggressive I'm like
it found you yeah I'm like what's your
favorite thing about this company the
people exactly like we are a very
specific flavor oh yeah and if you like
our flavor I like to think we're like
black licorish which I love now I know
for some people that is the most
disgusting thing in the universe and so
I'm like but we're that kind of specific
for the right person like we will be the
favorite place you've ever worked and
for the wrong person we will be trash so
for any of my entrepreneurs out there
let me tell you right now culture is one
of the most important things product
Market fit more important make more
money than you spend more important but
then like culture is going to be a huge
deal for retention for employees
enjoying what they do for you getting
things done in a way that you're proud
of like as I always say to people hey
Lisa and I ran the experiment of what it
looks like when you don't have the right
culture and it's ass yeah and we hated
it as much as anybody else and not
liking being at your own company that's
really lame oh that's awful and so when
we found it impact Theory we're like
never again like culture is going to be
a main thing that we hire against that
we hold people accountable to um we have
something do you know Ray Delio oh yeah
oh God I love this guy so for people
that don't know he built the largest
hedge fund in the world amazing and he
has this thing in this culture that he
calls dots so everybody can give
everybody else like a score on whatever
30 different criteria yeah and so we
have a bunch of those criteria that are
part of our culture doc like our people
being hardcore etc etc so we can all
rank each other I love that you know
what I find fascinating is the stuff
when I was poor or not where I wanted
that I ignored is the stuff that makes
you millions and then tens of millions
of dollars like culture like leadership
I used to think what like I'm just here
I get a job done I want to get rich I
want to do the thing this this is how it
goes and so you know I think it's really
interesting whenever I'm with Builders
who have built a lot they all want to
talk about the same stuff it's like how
do you get more humans to want to do the
things you want them to do culture
leadership and if people want to have
real success and you want to do it in a
way where you're not killing yourself
all day those two words are like two of
the most important words in the English
language what's funny is I'm sure if we
did a YouTube video and the title was
how to build a $100 million culture
people would be like snooze but if you
like how to make a million dollars with
a vending machines in 30 days [ __ ] and
millions of views but guess what the one
on the left the this the first one100
million culture is so much more valuable
than the vending machine video and so if
you can push through what the world
wants you to listen to which is
literally the candy the vending machine
the sweets and you can actually want to
eat the broccoli oh my gosh that's where
all the magic is um it's actually funny
because I I was sitting with this the
other day I went to
team three of the Navy Seal's 40th uh
anniversary um of being in existence
right it's cool so this was the the team
that my husband was at and uh we go on
to the new base it's incredible like we
take a tour through you know these Halls
were like our friends their gear when
they were you know killed in action is
sitting there and my husband a flag with
his name written on it that was like
taken away from Isis and showed our yeah
it it was just incredible right that's
heavy it was it was really cool it was
cool to see the steps that land from
from people that you've known before but
what stuck with me from a business
perspective is we're sitting we're
looking out at the ocean it's beautiful
and we're sitting listening to uh five
people speak Admiral mcraven who's
probably one of the most um you know
well-respected
uh living Team guys uh can't is Johnny
Kim um anyway um both a Navy SEAL and an
astronaut and a doctor Jesus I mean
total underperformer yeah not doing
anything in his life exactly um some
people yeah and the current head of of
Team three what was fascinating is you
had Admiral mcraven he gave this
incredible speech right like bestselling
author one of the most senior guys in
the military you had the head of the
team you had uh overachiever uh Johnny
Kim astronaut doctor Etc but then at the
very end you had what's called uh the co
I think excuse me if anybody in the
military is listening I'm probably
[ __ ] this up but he's like the head
enlisted guy so there's officers and
then there's the enlisted guys and they
work hand
inand but um the chief uh enlisted guy
is a badass sort I won't say his name
because I don't know what's public or
not but um anyway he at the very end of
this like couple hour long segment it's
emotional they're you know mentoring
some of the people that have died I was
looking at it from a team perspective
and from an inspiration perspective and
all of these speeches were like
relatively formal they were good but at
the very end he comes up and he uh has
12 seven or 12 Team guys in full kits so
like machine gun or ar or something all
decked out with their Gear helmets on
and they go and they line up on the
other side and so it's like very jarring
right you see them walk across the all
and uh and what they are is they each
represent members of the team that were
killed in action over the years and what
was incredible is he closed out the
ceremony and they would yell out the
name of of the person who was killed so
it'd be like you know Brandon Looney and
then everybody would yell hurah right
like they yell really loud and then
they'd shoot off the machine gun and so
by the end of it everybody's crying
everybody's yelling and that guy had set
the tone he wasn't the leader he wasn't
the highest member of the team but if
there was one speech and one person you
remembered and one person who everybody
there 600 people would say is like the
epitome of what they wanted team three
to be it was that guy and um and I think
about that a lot because people
sometimes think you got to be the CEO
you got to be MC mcraven you got to be
the head of the team but like this guy
was what they call the heart and soul of
the team and I think that that is
something really important to take with
you for the members of your team and for
the people listening who aren't at the
top like you don't have to be at the top
to be the person that everybody goes to
and that stuck with me ever since that
day it's really powerful ful so as
somebody who walked a very
unconventional path started with nothing
like how do you walk that path how do
you go from being that guy to running
something you know this this uh I think
this guy's an interes in one to stay on
for a second um you know we have a
saying we do the work um I I think it's
a well-known saying we just say it at
contrarian thinking too um but I think
one of the ways that people don't
realize is super easy to get ahead is
there's two things curse of competence
which means there are actually very few
competent hardworking driven people in
this world way more than I think people
realize and you've seen it before like
you've seen when somebody goes 10% more
than the norm it's pretty rare actually
like how many people have you had come
in here and not impress you just be kind
of like everybody else and then you
notice the guy who's like oh no he's
here before everybody else oh he stays a
little bit later than everybody else
could be 10 minutes on both ends oh he
like submitted a brief and an update
without being asked like do the work uh
be that one competent human in a ocean
of humans who are complacent instead of
competent and then the second thing I
think that surprised me about how easy
quote unquote easy it was to succeed is
that um most people say they want things
but they say almost like hopes instead
of wills and so you know my husband and
I kind of talk about this a lot we're
like like do you want it or are you
going to do it and he has this annoying
saying he always says to me which is
like you know are you a good white shark
or are you a great white shark and he
says it to me he says it to me often
when we're working out which is when I
really want to murder him um but it's
it's like a little family motto like are
you going to be kind of okay and good
good are you going to be great and the
difference between good and great is 10%
and nobody stripes for it and so for
people listening I mean I don't know
look like how easy is that be there 10%
earlier and stay 10% later than some
than everybody else at your company for
six months like Watch What Happens and
if that doesn't get noticed at that
company go to the next one or build the
next company in the 10 minutes that
you're there in the beginning and the
end it's what I did at Goldman Sachs I
got recognized by the most director and
then I had multiple job opportunities
after that I wasn't smarter than anybody
else I didn't go to any fancy schools I
didn't have an MBA then but I worked
slightly harder than everybody else I
was competent and I did a little bit
more than everybody else and that was
it when somebody's aggressive when they
are working harder than other people
when you can tell they want it there's
it's a joy to be around a joy like there
really is something and I talk about
this a lot like don't make me me drag
you oh don't make me drag you I'll drag
you across the Finish Line if I have to
cuz I am going to succeed but godamn
like if you can make me sweat that's
thrilling when I'm around people that
I'm like wo all right look at this
person like they're really showing up
they're playing to win it's intoxicating
it's just for the right person for me
that's a thrill to be around I love that
so much and that really will get people
a lot farther than they think yeah age
now how did you start learning like do
you have a process for how you learned
all this stuff cuz you were just saying
earlier you're now a finance person like
you really understand the finance of a
deal but you weren't a finance person so
you went from journalism to act like
straight up Goldman Sachs obviously
there was something in the middle but
like how did you go down the process of
learning something that you did not
previously know at
all what I've been Amazed by in life is
that most people don't ask questions
they pretend like they know things
yes at the top all the way to the bottom
why
because they they think that if they ask
questions they look dumb and what I
found is I was trained as a journalist
to do one thing ask questions and
actually the better the question the
better the results as a journalist
that's all that's the only thing and so
I never Associated asking questions with
looking dumb in fact I don't care to
this day I ask stupid questions all the
time in fact when we look at a deal I'll
often and say explain to me this like
I'm six and then if they bring me a very
large deal Sam zel was famous for this
uh I'm a big Sam zel fan he wrote uh the
subtle no am I being too subtle famous
uh they called him the grave dancer and
he was the grave dancer that's quite the
name uhhuh he was famous for turnarounds
of real estate businesses so he would
take them out of the Grave he they would
say danced on it but uh he would take
these businesses that were going to fail
and then turn them around and build them
to something huge and um and Sam just
passed away actually and he uh famously
when they would bring him a deal like a
you know some multi hundred million deal
they were going to do uh one deal they
threw it in front of him big deal had a
deal book professional all these stats
and everything and he just flipped it
back to him and he said should we do the
deal the guy's like well like you know I
have 400 Pages prepared here and he goes
give this deal to me in a onepage brief
and then I'll know you understand it
fact facts facts yeah so important oh my
God
I'm constantly telling people say your
thesis in a single sense yeah because if
you can't say it in a single sense you
don't understand it you don't understand
it and I realize this for myself too in
fact if you want to get ahead quickly I
think you know ass associating yourself
with people who already have the things
that you want is really important one of
the easiest ways to do that back in
corporate land was everybody fought for
one job and that was the chief of staff
job you wanted to be Chief of Staff to
one of the senior leaders and the reason
why is because you learned one what do
they care about and how do you learn
what they care about from the daily
briefs you put together for them and so
you actually got a way to steal their
10,000 hours by looking at the very few
things that they looked at every day
that determined what was important for
them and so briefing has become really
important at my company and people get
annoyed with me on this she gonna say
like I need to do briefs like this sound
you need to briefs this sounds hot dude
let me tell you there's nothing sexier
than a hot brief and uh it's funny cuz
my team the other day there's this one
woman at our team I'll shout her out
mati who does incredible briefs and why
does that matter because it shows me how
you think and the way that you think
tells me how you work and how you work
tells me what you prioritize and so
these briefs are incredible and the best
way to learn them is you can actually
see examples of uh the president's Daily
Brief and who could have a more succinct
important Daily Brief than the president
of the United States and so a lot of my
team will look at that and they'll also
look at briefs for some of the largest C
out there and so um if you have a team
at all get them in the habit of doing
this and uh and that I think is an
incredible skill to get good at yeah I
love that the most we we will definitely
be doing that I'll send you some
examples of what I have yeah please that
would be incredible yeah okay so um when
you're going about learning something
for me anyway it's really rudimentary
it's uh I need to know the terms so
that's going to be the first thing so
and in fact I went on a I went on a
similar Journey for a very different
reason so when hit I realized o the
people so going back to all my time in
the inner cities I was like they're
going to get obliterated I didn't
understand money printing yet so I just
thought they're [ __ ] and so I was like
okay I've got to find a really tactical
like personal finance vein to get people
in on the show so that I can help but I
didn't understand Finance at all I'm
good at making money I'm not good at
investing money and so I was like okay
I'm going to start learning about this
bringing people on all that starts with
learning the Lexicon figuring out who
the players are and doing what I call
reading and swarms now reading could be
YouTube whatever you're just taking a
topic you're trying to see it from as
many different angles as humanly
possible have you ever seen those like
sculptures that are made out of trash
but you can only see what they are from
like one specific angle okay that's life
yeah and so if you're looking at
business from the wrong angle it looks
like this big crazy mystery and it looks
like CLA Schwab is you know the evil
Madman he's going to take over you start
twisting it around and you realize oh
it's just a bunch of people who think
that they're smarter than they are and
they really should learn to distrust
themselves but once it clicks into place
and you realize that Steve Jobs was
right the world is created by people no
smarter than you then it's like oh I'm
seeing how this really is but to do that
you have to see it from a lot of
different angles so when I'm reading
about a topic I'm trying to get as many
different perspectives on that thing as
I can so that I can triangulate on what
the truth really is then once I have
that and I have a sense of what this is
I'll formulate my own hypothesis
hypothesis will make predictions then I
go test that prediction now if that
prediction is accurate then I know that
I'm actually understanding this and this
is whether you're talking about business
or romance boys and girls your brain is
a prediction engine yeah once you
realize that it is very hard to discern
what is objectively true very hard even
even at the level of physics we don't
know yeah so objective truth so you get
into perspective and interpretation okay
cool but all of these things make a
prediction so I think if I do this I'm
going to get this outcome well do it if
you got that outcome then your
understanding your mental map of the
world is pretty close if you try it and
you get something completely different
you need to understand your mental model
is broken so if you point to other
people oh it's their fault it's the
economy's fault no no no you didn't
understand something that's why it broke
because let's remind St Kobe that Booz
on block dunks doesn't matter how much
somebody's trying to trip you up doesn't
matter how bad the economy is
there is a solution to that puzzle you
just didn't find it and so if you can
own that update your mental model and
try again just recognizing it as a
prediction engine so that's how I go in
to learn any new thing does that sound
roughly analogous to what you do I
actually think I am much Dumber on this
so the way I'm going to say it isn't
Dumb whatever you're about to say
different perhaps so uh I'm much less
scientific so when I want to start
learning something I just go where the
game is played and you get in I just get
in and so what that would mean in the
beginning was I didn't understand
Finance I wasn't smart enough to do what
you said you know read in swarms go find
a predictive I was like where are Smart
Finance people I guess this company
called Vanguard that's located here
could I get a job there and I go I bet
if I get a job there get the job though
cuz they're going to be like do you know
Finance no the funny thing about humans
are they love to hear themselves talk
and so one of the secrets to getting in
job places is you just ask a lot of
questions shedi Mind Trick nice yeah and
so at the time I sat next to this lady
Tara and I was like so what do you do
she's like Securities and I'm like oh
that's a lot of work because I thought
she was talking about security at the
like you know she had a gun but she was
actually talking about so wait you were
applying for the job and at Vanguard and
you didn't know was I was sitting at a
conference next to her to be fair okay
so I sat next to her at a conference
yeah is that were you at the conference
to learn about Finance yes okay Finance
conference got it to not know to be at a
at a conference for finance and to not
know what a security is that is amazing
your story gets better by the second
yeah and again why was I at the
conference about Finance because I
wanted to get into Finance but I didn't
know anything about it so I just said
well let's go to a place where they're
talking about Finance so I go to a
conference then I sit next to this lady
I get curious about her I ask her all
about her I ask all about Vanguard I get
really curious about her job what does
she care about what does she do what's
their mission
and when I get all those questions I
write down the answers and so I'm
actually getting the cheat code to what
a hiring manager cares about at Vanguard
because I'm asking her questions and
then she gets intrigued by the fact that
unlike most humans I'm not talking at
her I'm asking her information and I'm
very tuned in I'm like focused on her
intently and I follow up which most
people also don't do I send an email
afterwards it was so amazing to talk to
you here are three things I learned
super interesting love to have coffee
with you a second time we have coffee
again I just ask a bunch of questions
and then she asks me to apply for this
very uh it was a rotational development
program so tons of people all these
fancy degrees everywhere in little Cody
who didn't know what a security or a
mutual fund was um but I think um you
know the difference was I was really
curious and that is an abnormal thing in
a world of humans who pretend that they
know what they mean so crazy and then so
if if I was trying to do this again I
would do the same thing when I wanted to
get into content uh what did I do I just
went and tried to talk to humans who
knew something about content that I
wanted to know so if I wanted to
understand media today I would probably
get really curious and I would learn on
somebody else's dime I think an a job
today is like a free MBA in fact it's an
MBA that they pay you for and it's
really underrated to have a job early on
the average employee at Vanguard they
say they spent $100,000 on training per
employee when I was making $30,000 a
year so I was given this free MBA at
Vanguard not to mention three licenses
that I've carried for the rest of my
life that have to be registered at a
company I couldn't get them any other
way and so I think people should just go
get a [ __ ] job working for somebody
learning from them and go where the
game's played and then the amazing part
is they could start in a factory with
you and if they're really hard workers
they're super curious and they keep
asking if they know thyself continuously
you're going to keep promoting a really
smart a very hardworking very curious
iterating human and you'll promote them
to different things that they want to
that are within their skill sets and so
I probably to learn I just I like to
steal other people's 10,000 hours I want
to go where the game's played I want to
sit with a bunch of winners and I want
pressure um because then I think you can
learn and it's you know Lisa and I were
talking about this a little bit earlier
but there is scientific research that
shows that being surrounded by top
performers increases your performance by
15% and being around underperformers
decreases your performance by 30% and so
if you're in a company with a bunch of
underperformers get in one where it is
hard and if you are hanging out with
friends that all are underperformers get
in one where you're with some top
performers because you know you're going
to earn 30% more money uh or you're
going to earn actually what is it you're
going to earn 45% more money if you're
around top performers than if you're
around
underperformers and
I think most people don't think about
that like people talk [ __ ] about Goldman
I'm like that place is amazing for a
young hungry person it's awful at a
certain point but for a young hungry
person it's like top performers that are
going to make me earn more that are
going to put pressure on me it's the
only way diamonds are made it's the same
thing in work I think the big problem is
that people don't
know I'm going to use a gross word but
so it'll stick in people's heads they
don't know what their God is and
utility is my God yeah now if you are
pursuing something stupid you will
pursue the utility of stupid things but
if you're pursuing something honorable
and it's the meaning and purpose for
your life how could you be focused on
anything other than utility that's the
thing that drives me crazy Thomas soul
is um he just has one of my favorite
quotes and he says the last 30 years
have been marked by exchanging worked
with what sounds good yeah and that is
blasphemy in my worldview because you
are now
abandoning utility actual usefulness
actually moving in the direction of the
thing that you want and this is why
again I'm just going to beat this drum
to death people need to understand what
motivates their reasoning everybody's
reasoning is motivated it's motivated
towards something uh we were looking at
the Tucker Carlson thing postmodernism
motivated by power um so you get to your
point I I've never thought about it
before so I certainly reserve the right
to change my opinion about anything at
any time but um that the brutalism of
the structures which if anybody's never
looked up brutalist architecture it's
actually a style of architecture that is
brutal yeah uh heavy concrete very few
Windows nasty Soviet sort of Eastern
block right uh and ironically one of
them was just built in La which there
was like a whole huge backlash which I'm
not surprised anyway and the fluorescent
lights and all
that if your assessment is right about
why they're doing that and my assessment
is right that postmodernism really is
about power and nothing else uh then it
becomes a statement of power we are
bigger better stronger than you you work
for us you do as you're told um
and that when you force somebody to pull
into the light what drives their
thinking like in fact did you ever see
the documentary what is a woman yeah
okay it fascinating glad they did it
however it would have been more like it
becomes just a dunk on the lunacy and it
really did come across as lunacy to me
yeah but we could have pulled it back
out of lunacy if you just start asking
what are the base assumptions that are
driving your rationale yeah and
when you make people State like this is
why I believe that and one and this I
learned this in
business so the physics of progress you
come up with a hypothesis about what you
would need to do to achieve your goal
okay what does a hypothesis do a
hypothesis makes predictions so when
you're talking to somebody what you want
to do is say okay the things you're
saying are the end result of of a
prediction you're making that's
invisible to me because you're not
saying it out loud you're just telling
me the outcome but if I think of that as
a prediction then I'm like okay this for
that to be true the following base
assumption has to be true and so I'll
just ask people okay because you're
saying that the following statement must
be true so for instance um if uh you
want to give puberty blockers to a young
child um that makes a prediction that
you believe that self-professed
identity is the most important thing in
their life and that you're even willing
to put them through a medical procedure
that has some risk of complication and
death uh is that accurate and they're
going to say yes that's true or they're
going to say no that's not accurate but
I believe If you deny them the ability
to express their gender through a
physiological change that the rate of
suicide goes up okay so the prediction
that that makes is that um they are more
likely to die if they don't do this
surgery is that accurate yes okay cool
that's a testable hypothesis it makes a
prediction I can now look at the data
and find out is that really true now the
problem becomes if that's a red herring
and that's not really what's motivating
their thinking then it will all fall
apart because I will present them with
the data and I actually don't know the
answer to that but let's say just for
the sake of argument that it comes back
and no there actually is an increase in
likelihood of suicide postsurgery I'm
just I don't know that's true I'm just
saying if it were if in that moment they
go oh okay word like what we're seeing
in England where they've they've now
banned the use not just Tav a stock
closing down they've now banned the use
of puberty blockers on miners okay so
they look at the data and they change
word I'm here for that but if somebody
looks at the data and then they say oh
no no no we still need to do it for this
reason and and you'll get this all the
time with uh in business where somebody
will say this is why I couldn't get that
thing done and you're like okay well why
didn't you do this well no that's not
really the reason it was because of this
okay why didn't you do that well no no
no it's not really that it's this I will
say you're making me chase you don't
make me Chase you just tell me the
reason and then we will and if there's
four reasons give me all four and then
we'll go through them one by one but
this is a knowable set of things right
the problem is again people they argue
with the level of fact they're just two
ships passing in the night instead of
getting down to what are your base
assumptions what predictions do they
make and do those predictions come true
and if people start thinking through
that so rather than trying to be right
or pass judgment which is what I could
feel in that documentary instead of that
like it's what I call trapping people in
their own values you just tell me your
values and then we'll see is the thing
you're doing leading to your value or
not and if your value is madness then we
can at least I now know what your value
is right like Hitler that [ __ ]
just told everybody what he was going to
do y uh need somebody to blame Jews are
going to work they've worked all
throughout history so we're for sure uh
blaming the Jews and then we're going to
take over Russia don't tell them yet but
we're going to take it over because we
want that to be the new version of what
America was you know whatever 7500 years
ago where everybody just flooded into
America for opportunity and land he was
like that's going to be what we do with
Russia is it will be Europe's America I
he literally just said this [ __ ] and so
he had a value system where it's like uh
the lives of the German people Aran race
whatever words he would have used are
superior yeah okay so that's a pretty
ugly uh prediction that that makes uh
that also predicts that you're going to
do all the things that he ends up doing
but you're now pulling it out into the
Forefront nothing's hidden everything's
out on the table and now we can say uh
do we think that human life is equally
valuable or not and you start getting
people saying this stuff and it's like
whoa now we you can just follow things
out to their natural conclusion and you
find the place where it breaks because
what I what I'm always encouraging
people to do is you need to reflect
somebody's beliefs values back to them
in a way that they would recognize so
that they wouldn't be like no you're
twisting my words or
whatever now it's out on the table now
you can make progress yeah it's really
you know I think if people want to
understand what is happening in the
world around them and be able to
influence it quickly efficiently and
without emotion they should read a book
like statistics for dummies because I
actually think a lot of what you're
talking about are two things first is we
we don't understand statistics we don't
understand probabilities we don't
actually understand how to look at the
numbers presented to us in a world view
and statistics Drive business they drive
wealth they drive the economy and then
the other H half is the the um being
able to follow the scientific method so
I think X hypothesis I want to test that
hypothesis here's how the scientific
method works and those two things we
learned in school but not they were not
the focus of lots of what we did I
recall learning much more calculus than
I did statistics and in fact statistics
do not have to be super um deep
mathematical learnings they can be
understanding assumptions and how to
read uh the math that is happening
behind the scenes and I think a lot of
the reasons why we get sold a bunch of
Lies is because we don't actually
understand statistics and scientific
method so we end up going with what
feels good and sounds good as opposed to
what actually works and Thomas soul is
is a genius at this for many many
different reasons but you know if people
haven't read economic facts and
fallacies from him Incredible Book if
people haven't read statistics for
dummies good if you don't have a basis
for how to understand when they show you
the you know I always love that uh
example of sometimes when I go on the
news they'll ask me you know what do the
average XYZ what is the average and
averages really bother me on average
because because there it's a really poor
way to measure right especially
monetarily it's like what does the
average American make well really
depends how you determine average
because you have a few outliers in there
you have a bar everybody makes 100K Bill
Gates walks into the bar all of a sudden
the average income goes from 100K to $10
million or whatever that would be why is
that it's because you should have used
media a not average and that's not
actually mathematically difficult to
understand we could start there we don't
have to go to super complex bology
understanding cryptology and deep
understanding of the network State we
could just start with statistics and
scientific method as opposed to emotions
and narrative I hear a lot lately that
like he who holds the best story wins
and I do think that is true but the
reason that is true is because people
don't understand how to poke holes in
arguments and if you really want to win
be rich be successful you have to
understand is somebody lying to me about
something that I can verify one way or
another which would be Stacks statistics
or scientific method all right now let's
see if we can agree on why that matters
so much why does it matter to you well
let's take it from multiple different
angles one from a business perspective
every business is a constrained business
nobody has unlimited resources right so
if you just started out starting out and
you're doing the $100 startup method and
you don't have much money and you don't
know how to make a business work very
well you have very little dollars so you
have to understand statistics to
understand where if I put $1 will it be
most likely to go out and bring back
friends back with me that's just
probabilities and statistics and so in
business everything you're doing every
decision you make is really just a
determination of should I do this or
this and which one of those is going to
make me more money or more opportunity
or more options or better
decision-making something and so
business is really just a complex game
of Statistics that ends in dollar signs
right and I think the scientific method
is so important because we think about
it just in science but all it is is what
you're talking about it's like turtles
all the way down you know you're just
you're trying to figure out what lies
underneath the things people tell you so
for instance in our content business
because I come from Finance I push back
really hard on ideas so they'll say well
this is we have this argument the other
day like words mean things words mean
specific things and if we don't agree on
the definition of a word we can't
actually have a conversation and so what
is a good video well lots of people
might have different definitions of good
so I said okay at this company a good
video is one that gets the most views
let's just Baseline it a good video at
our company is the one that gets the
most views is everybody on understanding
about that and we had to debate they
were like well what if it's a you know
this type of video where you're naked or
this type of video where somebody's
getting shot or like something awful and
I go well because we have our Creed and
our values we would never make that
video because we understand our values
and beliefs so because we understand our
values and beliefs then we can decide on
a quantitative determination of the word
good in the video sense which means
views okay fine if we don't do that you
have a huge problem because then you go
well I think this video is great I think
this video is great I don't know what to
do with that that's like your personal
taste in a video and taste as we all
know from the fact that when we go out
to a restaurant very seldom do all of us
order the exact same thing every single
time why because our taste is different
and so I think a lot of business is
getting really definitional what does
taste mean ooh taste is difficult to
Define so that is a bad word instead we
should use a word like does it
convert do I make money off of this
thing if I make money then it is in
taste with this company as long as it
follows our Creed does this video get
views if this video gets views then it
is tasteful according to us and so a lot
of people these days don't like
definitions they want to be really
wobbly with them but that's a huge
problem because then you cannot have a
conversation and you cannot agree on
what a good outcome or a bad outcome
looks like but I that's why they do it
yeah but I I [ __ ] you not Tom the other
day I was like they're like can we
please stop talking about this and I was
like no we have to like have a argument
about what an individual word means and
we need to do that continuously across
the company and I need you guys to do
that individually because otherwise we
all feel good because we're agreeing
but because our foundation is not the
same we're not agreeing at all but what
I found with this generation again and
again and I fall into it too because I'm
a people pleaser sometimes is like
nobody wants to have those tough
conversations how silly does it feel
about arguing over what is one
individual word good and yet it's so
necessary right the infamous Christmas
argument uh on my side so yeah we got in
a huge debate as a company and it was me
against everybody else and I was like I
know I'm burning relationship Capital
right now cuz you all think I'm a
psychopath but I'm like it was I don't
even remember what the specific thing
was anymore but it was like that it was
a single word and we're not moving on
until we all agree that this is for that
very reason now I you described exactly
the way that I think about this I use
slightly different words exact same idea
for me the reason that because it's all
started with why does it matter to
detect a lie and are we being lied to by
people the whole point of my channel is
to say the world Works in a certain way
the vast majority of it is behind a
curtain that you've never looked behind
and so the whole goal of my life which I
just happened to make a show about is
that I am trying to figure out what's
behind the curtain and what I want
people to understand is it is I've
actually never watched the video with um
Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris where
they debate truth but the reality is
that finding truth is really really
difficult now the reason it's difficult
is because we all wear What I Call Whole
Life beer goggles and we cannot see
what's really there we're interpreting
what's there and so two people can look
at the exact same thing and see
something completely different I can
spend time explaining how this happens
from an evolutionary standpoint but just
for now we'll say there are algorithms
running in your brain and they will
control how you perceive the inputs that
are coming in yeah okay so if the world
Works in a certain way and words matter
and narrative matters and even data can
become narrative at some point your life
is controlled by how you interpret the
things that are before you what
narrative you're telling yourself and if
your narrative doesn't make accurate
predictions it's broken so the reason
identifying a lie matters is because it
breaks your prediction engine and if you
want to make money in business
statistics are going to be your best
friend because you have to understand do
I do this or do I do this which is going
to have the bigger impact you're asking
yourself a question of predictive
ability I predict that based on what I
know if I do this one I'm going to get
the outcome that I want and that's why
you do it but if your worldview is
messed up if there's something you don't
understand you will choose the wrong
thing and of course it's never one or
two there's usually a thousand options
before you and so people just have no
idea how to choose because they don't
know how they think they don't know
where they're being lied to they don't
know how to dissect uh the information
that's coming in they don't know how to
test hypotheses they don't understand
that when somebody puts something
forward it makes a [ __ ] prediction
and if you ask people if you stop and go
okay hold on a second what prediction
does that statement make and then I'm
just going to ask you is this true and
if in that moment you're worried about
looking stupid then you're just going to
nod and smile when they give you some
[ __ ] answer which they will almost
always do because they probably don't
know what's driving this they probably
have never thought about the prediction
that it makes but man if you really are
unafraid to look stupid and you say to
somebody okay for what you just said to
be true the following base assumption
also has to be true and I'll just say it
to them is is that true or this makes
that prediction is that accurate and if
they say no one of two things is true
either they're wrong which happens more
than you would think and I'm talking
from experts the brightest Minds in the
world or you don't understand something
and if you don't understand something
and you're not afraid to look stupid
then just keep asking and asking and
asking you understand somebody's
worldview statement whatever when you go
ah it makes this prediction is that
accurate and they say yes then it's like
okay cool I understand what you're
saying and now that I
understand I can't be
Bamboozled and that is the only way to
get good at business and this is why
okay I think I may have learned this
from you so forgive
me Specialists
generalists the reason that your
business content is so good and your
business content is so good thank you is
because you're a specialist you buy
businesses all day long I'm a generalist
so I launched a course called business
decis decision making that that is the
greatest course I'm going to I really
believe this that is the greatest course
on entrepreneurship ever taught and all
I did was say to whatever the small
group of people uh bring me your hardest
business problem and we're going to
solve it in real time and then I would
just walk people through this is how you
do it I don't need to know your industry
none of that like I'm going to think
from first principles I'm going to ask
you questions about what you said makes
a prediction I mean literally all the
things I'm just talking about but in
real time hey and you're going to come
back week after week and we're just
going to keep going okay now you made
progress what's the next problem boom
boom boom we go through it and live fire
and what I would say to people is I know
you think you want copyrighting or you
want funnel marketing or all of that but
you can hire somebody to do that because
it's very finite and it's very teachable
the real thing that makes an
entrepreneur great is the ability to
solve novel problems it is a problem not
only have you not seen before nobody's
seen before and so now you have to be
able to build up from first principles
to Think Through It but that [ __ ]
hardest thing in the world to sell
because people know this is your
painkillers versus vitamins that [ __ ] is
a vitamin and people want painkillers
they know they have a problem and if you
Market it as I'm going to take you from
zero doar in Revenue to $3 million in
Revenue that shit'll sell all day long
you're exactly right God damn it it
isn't all weather it it will work for
one thing in that one moment but it
doesn't translate because it's not a
framework
100 100% I mean I think a couple things
there one
is the real definition of a CEO is a
scary one so if you say you want to be a
CEO here's what a CEO is it's your you
go out you hire the smartest people you
can possibly find you tell them to fix
problems then they find the problems
that are so hard even the smartest
people you can't find can't solve them
they bring them back to you and you have
one job only which is to deal with the
worst problems that the smartest people
that you know can't solve
that's all a CEO is and so if you think
you are more than a firefighter in the
most complex fires of all time you're
crazy the CEO is not a fun easy breezy
position I've never met a CEO that felt
that way um that's why they moved a
chairman after a while because they let
somebody else deal with it and so I
think that's exactly right the other
thing that I find fascinating there is
um so I started contrarian thinking in
2020 with this idea that people have
lost their minds they are no longer able
to think because they can't question
anything and I believe that I will give
like you will make more cash if you are
curious than if you are a genius and the
reason why is because you can use the
collective genius if you are curious and
you are limited by your own genius if
you are not and so especially with the
world of chat GTP if you are a genius
but unwilling to ask questions because
of your own Brilliance you have just
lost the world of knowledge and so I
believe our ability to question things
is integral to our individual success
and uh and yet I thought people were
losing that ability and they were
smothering it and they were saying it
was wrong to question things and I
thought that was criminal so I started
contrarian thinking and I was like we
are going to teach you to question
things to be contrarian not for the sake
of it but in order to learn and then it
was crickets and people were like I
think just fine this Noggin is pretty
smart I don't need your help think
better like nobody really goes around
and says I wish I could think better
except those at the very very very very
top it's like a 1% problem most people
think that they think fine they just
haven't found the deal the money the
next job the girl the whatever they
don't think there's anything wrong with
the way that their brain functions and
unless it's a pill that can make them
like superhuman intelligence um and so I
quickly realized that okay if I want
people to think differently how how
could I get them to do that what would
be the Trojan Horse to think in and I
was like well what do all humans want
they want love in some degree they're
greedy they want like some sort of
personal wealth right uh and they want
maybe relevancy in some way shape or
form you could also say they want Health
right and so if we have wealth Health
sex grid uh which do I know a lot about
well I I don't really know that much
about health uh I don't really want to
talk about sex on the internet wouldn't
say I'm an expert there either um but
what about wealth or greed well yeah I
know a lot about that I've been in
finance for a long time so what if I
could Trojan Horse my way into thinking
by getting people to talk about money
I'll tell them how to make more money
but in the process of telling them how
to make more money I'm actually going to
get them to think about something more
important which is ownership and what do
ownerships have they have personal
responsibility for outcomes when you
have personal responsibility for
outcomes you have incentive alignment
when you have incentive alignment then
when somebody breaks something that you
own you feel it when somebody lifts up
something that you own you feel it you
have the pleasure pain uh you know cycle
happening within you and so that is why
we eventually started talking about
money and contrarian thinking because I
realized it's a trojan horse to getting
people to care about decision- making
because they actually have skin in the
game and ownership ownership is the key
to freedom and that in fact if you do
not have control over your life uh
through Financial Freedom it's very hard
to have other levels of ownership and I
think that is true yeah no doubt um man
ownership is such a part of your message
and I think it's so so so important um
how one why don't people have that like
push now that's not the cool thing that
it once was yeah it's not is it yeah
it's interesting the other day uh we had
an employee um you know decide that they
wanted to leave to go into a
meditation Community like a monastery
not really sure and um and I thought
about that at first a really good
employee by the way great employee and I
thought well what is that decision-
making and I went back to the to the
quote I can't remember who it's from but
that the the purpose of uh Faith or
religion is to live it in life that you
you know are you truly a that's why the
doll Lama doesn't stay in Tibet right
his purpose is to go spread this faith
that he has while living life because
life is hard and difficult it's very
easy to stay peaceful if you're in 247
meditation States and yet I think this
generation they presuppose that if they
find the perfect circumstance that that
will lead to Bliss instead of realizing
that actually Bliss is found in the
difficulty and so I don't know about
this personal situation with this
individual but I thought about this a
lot because I thought what would make
somebody like put their life on pause
that way and and you know stay in this
one one situation and I think the reason
is because we have not been conditioned
in this generation to um to find joy in
difficulty instead we want to find joy
in in extreme pleasure I mean look at
what we've done to this generation I
mean this is wild and even to parents
today we told them we said parents you
know uh run your kids around 24/7 to all
of these activities if they get upset in
any way shape or form run to the
principal you know talk to the parent on
their behalf don't let them handle it um
if something is wrong with them and they
are sad or anxious they are probably
depressed or maybe they have ADHD we're
going to label them and pathologize them
as opposed to tell them they're having a
momentary issue we're going to get them
into the most expensive colleges or any
college we can but then they will have a
massive amount of student debt and then
on top of that we're going to tell them
that uh you know no it it's it's okay
about every single feeling that you're
having and that is all of this trauma
and yes you know your cat died 15 years
ago and you are still carrying that
inside of your hips and that's why
they're tight right because that's where
you hold the trauma from you know fluffy
and and so this is what we've told
parents and kids and so of course
they're confused you know they're
confused and they don't know what real
Joy is and they've checked all the boxes
they've done all the things that they
thought they were supposed to do and
it's led to them being like like in debt
not that happy not with a partner um you
know and so what's next so I do as much
as I kind of give my generation Our
Generation and the Next Generation a
little bit of a hard time I really get
it because I was told all those same
things too and had to come out on the
other side and realize no no I'm the
only one responsible for my happiness
and that there's actually a lot of joy
in the journey and there is no
destination that you can reach and by
the way you can never stay for the rest
of your life in perfect meditation the
point of medit is not that it is to be
in life you know I heard this thing the
other day that I really liked I think it
was Mel Robbins and Mel Robbins was
saying uh the eye of the hurricane is
what she tries to be so you know the if
there's a hurricane and there's chaos
and there's tumult and there's broken
windows and danger and floods on the
exterior of the hurricane in the middle
of it it's silent and Serene and so her
goal is no matter what's happening out
here that she wants to stay silent
inside and I was I was thinking about
that I was like I like that that and I
was like but you know what's even more
interesting the bigger the hurricane the
bigger the eye right the more silence
inside of it so if you put yourself in
bigger more intense situations are you
able to find a deeper level of silence
and quiet and contemplation and I think
the answer is yes you are which goes
back to the Ted Turner we lost 100
million bucks on that and so if we all
will die and it may be painful at some
time and the only truth in life is that
we will experience pain we will die and
all of our loved ones will die and they
will probably not remember us much
sooner than we would ever like then we
should probably prepare ourselves for
that with a bigger hurricane so that as
we look the true difficulty of life that
is eventual death and difficulty on the
path of it it doesn't daunt us because
we've lived in difficulty too and so I
come closer and closer to that you know
that Buddhist idea of
you know that life has suffering life is
suffering um but that's sort of the
point of it all and that you can find
joy in that and it's way too deep you
know Tanner would go that's deep um but
uh but I think it might be
true the storm destroys most everyone
that it touches that's the the problem
how do you I mean do you think about
that like the like creating hurricanes
for no reason no do you Lament to God
whale from your gut at the fact
that you can create an eye in the middle
of the largest storm but that most of
the people you know and love will get
Torn to
Pieces I
think I don't think that I have that
individual power I think I think all of
us are like um I get really careful
about like overstating what I think I'm
capable of and so I don't think I am
capable of destroying the ones around me
no no no not you I'm saying that uh I am
very distressed that most people will
not be able to
do most people won't be able to be a CEO
most they survive their own hurricane
they create yeah exactly like this is
one of those where I don't want it to be
true I've just seen it play out too many
times that and you and I both said the
same thing so I know that you see what
I'm about to say which is Step number
one of being a CEO is ask yourself do
you really want to be a CEO yeah because
all I hear when someone says I want to
be a CEO is that you want to get punched
in the face over and over and over no it
really like really really really and the
longer I do it the more punches I take
and you do start going huh I routinely
am asking myself why am I doing this and
in fact it's really interesting to
compare my wife and I okay so I have
married my equal my wife is UN
unimaginable and and she has helped me
become the person that I am and I I
really don't even know who I would be
without her because of how gifted she is
and how smart she is and all that she
can't do what I can do yeah so and she
will be the first to tell you I mean she
did tell you literally before we started
rolling she was like I don't want to be
CEO I see what he has to deal with and I
don't want it yep and um that like it is
so exciting for me and I can give the
spe I I can be the dancing bear that you
uh poke fun at I can be the dancing bear
of
motivation and be very performative
around like just living in that
personality of the person that can
create the calm and that you can do
anything you set your mind to um and
then I've seen it up close and the
reality is the most people don't have
the skill yeah emotional management that
that's what being the eye of the storm
is is can everything be burning down
around you and you're not panicking yeah
you're concerned you're taking decisive
action but you're not panicking yeah and
what I have found is that the person you
lost to the monastery like Place uh
they're the norm yeah what's interesting
is they to give to steal man their
argument I keep in my back pocket that
life choice MH I study Eastern
philosophy a lot when I was younger at
one point I actually called myself a
Dost and I meant it I was a Dost you
said
and I always contended with the idea of
becoming a monk of some kind and I
thought I really believe that the um the
Wellspring of all suffering is desire
that makes sense to me and but what I
found was
that that felt like a choice between
engaging with life and disengaging from
life and you could say that you're
engaging with the pursuit of
non-attachment but it just isn't how it
felt to me yeah and I'm perfectly
willing to accept that maybe that's just
the part of my spiritual journey that
I'm on and one day I'll be start
laughing at myself that you know
Detachment was the right answer all
along yeah but I decided I'm I'm going
to fully engage with life but for my
sanity I keep in my back pocket that I
could just stop wanting any of this yeah
and the second I stop wanting to grow my
YouTube channel to make more Revenue to
be an entrepreneur for the ages to build
the next Disney I could just let go of
all of that and if I actually let go of
it all of a sudden those punches don't
hurt anymore they don't matter it's you
just let it go now you do have to
contend with freedom coming from
Financial Freedom mhm but one way to do
that is to beg for food and live in
either a monastery or a cave and come
out every now and then with your Rice
Bowl it's uh I don't pass judgment on
that lifestyle I just don't currently
want it for myself but I it's in my back
pocket yeah I like the back pocket idea
I think I think it's really important
and I don't have a good definition for
it so I have to work on this but this
idea of ownership I do not think has to
mean owner I think there there needs to
be a difference between the two and
ownership uh in my opinion there's like
four levels to Rich I think about
monetarily and so you have the first
level is like a spender you make money
you spend it the second level is a saver
right you make money you save some of it
the third level is an owner in my
opinion that you take the money and you
apply it towards your Pursuits so you
invest in you working more your business
Etc and the fourth level is an investor
and that's you take your access and you
invested in other people and their
Pursuits and the the levels you know you
you can't really go from a spender all
the way to an investor I don't believe I
think you kind of have to like climb the
rungs and I thought a lot about what
does ownership mean because I do not
think everybody should be an
entrepreneur or a CEO in any way shape
or form but I do think that they should
have some skin in the game for what
they're doing and they should have a way
where they can continue to earn even if
something catastrophic happens to them
so that could be that they have
additional income streams that could be
Investments that could be that they help
their wife or husband learn a new skill
and thus the family has multiple income
streams and what they do that could mean
you know sovereignty in that they live
on the land and they like subsidize part
of their you know income that they would
need by growing things or having
agricultural tax credits but I think
it's really important that we don't
become like you talked about people who
own nothing and like it I think we can
be people who want less material things
because our neighbors have them but
simultaneously have more ownership of
the things that can protect us from
negative consequences like a health
event where you need money like an
authoritarian regime that tells you they
want you to do X Y and Z money is like
it's an option that you get to either
use or not use and so I need to narrow
down this idea of ownership but I do
think you're right not everybody should
be a CEO and and what what trouble would
we be in if everybody was one who would
work with us right I think the job of a
CEO also is to have a dream so big that
your umbrella has room enough for many
people and to sell them that dream and
to show them that your dream is bigger
than anything that they could create
individually and is going to uplift them
in a way that is bigger than what they
could do by themselves it might be more
fun and might be more interesting um
because High High performing teams are a
joy to be in um I actually think one of
the worst things that ever happened to
us was that we sold this lie that remote
work was better for us I think it was
actually really detrimental and me
mental health numbers seem to to show
that and that you know I say online a
lot you know our our teams we make them
as much as possible come back to to the
office and uh it doesn't mean they have
to be there every day we don't put them
under fluorescent lights and and
cubicles um but we do require them to
now all be in Austin for contrarian
thinking we bought a studio there we
bought a headquarters we're hiring like
crazy my other company Biz Scout is
located there too contran thinking
capitals based there so it's Main Street
holding company and so I'm bringing all
the people back into the office because
I see what happens when they're on an
island and I think it's really really
negative but I have to get closer on
that idea of of ownership in order to to
explain it like even how you know it
used to be that the people who owned
companies were not unaligned
shareholders that just gave them money
for their stock right that really have
no ability to affect the outcome you and
I both anybody who owns stocks you have
a percentage of Google you have a
percentage of Amazon but you are not
really aligned with the employees and
the people inside of Google or Amazon
you just want as much money as you can
get for that stock and there's actually
really perverse short-term incentives
that happen with that really perverse
and so I think as an employee part of
your game should be I want to make as
much money as I can to a certain degree
and then I want to invest it in things
that arei to me and I want to find ways
to skill stack to become so valuable
that the people I work with will give me
some percentage of a company a deal you
know uh an opportunity to invest in
another company alongside them and
that's where I think we went a little
bit wrong like my employees don't have
Equity at contrarian thinking well one
does now but two of them just got Equity
at one of my other companies um and so
they're now they're now Partners they're
owners in that business even though
they're also employees and I think we
should be able to do that a lot with our
top performers and just like people
shouldn't stay at minimum wage they
should aspire to grow into more you know
I agree aggressively what do you think
about Black Rock and other big companies
buying everything so Main Street holding
company is where we own all of these
companies right we have like 26
companies in the portfolio right now and
not so long ago my goal was I want to
create the next KKR carile I was like I
saw how this these guys operate I want
to create a private Equity Fund that's
just as big I've already raised a
billion dollar fund at at First Trust
and yeah I can do this again but let's
do it in a better asset class which
would be uh private companies and so I
went was on my Merry way buying these
companies and then I kind of started
seeing what was happening with a lot of
these private equity-owned companies and
it's stripping the employees turning it
into postmodernist buildings with
fluorescent lights and cubicles it's uh
nobody knows your name when you go to
the corner store it's that they have
perverse incentives because they want to
strip it and flip it to somebody else
and then that next person wants to strip
it and flip it and a lot of these
companies you know get sold by three or
four private Equity companies before
they go public and they've lost kind of
their soul and so I realized man I want
to build a billion doll company maybe
multiple billion dollar companies but I
don't want to own all of America's small
businesses I want Americans to own those
businesses and if I can create value by
building something that hasn't existed
before that's cool but do I have to go
gobble up all the things that other
people could own within their
communities no and so I am very much
pushing back against the big guys owning
everything and we have to work for them
I think and dude I mean I don't know if
we talked last time but for those
economic nerds on here like if you don't
understand the unfair advantage that
black rock and Blackstone has it will
scare the hell out of you like if you
think about it this way they have
immense data right because they've been
doing this for a long time they have
most of their former Executives having
at some point or the other worked in the
FED been consultants for the FED been in
political positions um been the chairman
of of the FED uh they have also by the
way all been at varing companies like
the CEO of Black Rock and Blackstone who
have both uh you know one's been an
owner of the other company before and
they get rates to buy these companies
and houses and assets and anything that
you want to talk about that are like 1
half to one3 to 1/4th of the rates that
we have if we want to buy these
individual companies and why do they
have that because they have all our
money because you and I have our
investments at Black Rock in their ETFs
which means means that they get to use
those assets on the balance sheet to
have lower rates to buy things that then
increase the prices of single family
homes in the US with our
dollars and I think that is Criminal and
I'm I don't love the government
regulating many things but I think they
should at least get their neck off the
little guy get their foot off the neck
of the little guy get their neck off the
foot of the little guy yeah get their
foot off the neck of the little guy what
do people need to know about how the
world really works and how you went from
being a underpaid journalist to buying a
portfolio of small what you call boring
businesses that now kick off just under
$100 million in annual revenue to you
business in general especially small
business gets way over complicated so we
hear these stories of Silicon Valley
billionaires who have exited these giant
tech companies and this next social app
or Tesla and in reality your richest
neighbor maybe not in this neighborhood
but in most neighborhoods is probably
somebody who owns a plumbing company
somebody who owns a local landscaping
company the community all around you the
the services you use every day can make
you a lot of cash and what makes real
change is that you know money is the
architect for change in our world you
want to get somebody elected money you
want to change your local community
money you want to have different zonings
so you can change the businesses in your
local area money and so I don't acquire
money because I want Lamborghinis and
fancy things I do it because I think it
is a way to freedom because it is a tool
for power I mean when when I first had
money was when I made like $30,000 when
I left College I mean I made no money
out of college and I thought I was super
rich and I might never have to work
again and then I heard about taxes and
figure that out um but uh quickly I real
realized that um you know I worked at a
big company called Vanguard at the time
and Vanguard was the world's largest uh
Financial Manager and what was
fascinating about that company is the
people inside of Vanguard touched at the
time I think one in every $4 in the US
economy was touched in one way or the
other because of the mutual funds and
pensions that they they invest and and I
realized wow these humans speak a
language that I don't understand like
Roi iida you know uh basis points
there's this whole other language and
finance has that for a reason they have
it because you and I as normal people do
not speak that language and so they say
give me your money Tom entrust it to me
because you poor thing aren't
intelligent enough to understand how to
Shepherd your own future and so I had
people calling me in 2008 when I worked
at Vanguard crying asking me how
Vanguard could have stolen their money
because of the crisis and not realizing
that the stock market has fluctuations
in it and at that point I realized oh
wow like I'm never going to let this
happen to me and mine and that was hard
because my family thought to chase money
was evil and that we were happy and we
didn't have a lot of money so you don't
need money and then I heard this thing
uh called the napkin Theory I can't
remember who came up with it but
basically at the time I was struggling
with uh am I okay to chase after money
like is this bad am I a bad person for
this and I heard this story about uh a
napkin and imagine yourself in the
middle so you are standing in the middle
Cody and around me is my mom my dad my
brother my sister let's say on each of
the four corners and when you Cody in
the middle pick up your napkin like this
in order of pursuing Financial Freedom
you lift up everybody else around you
right because you can't be what you
can't see and also because money
trickles you know people talk about
trickle down economics we could think
about that one way or the other but
money actually when you have more around
your family you can hire your family
members you can build new businesses you
can create more wealth by spending it
and so they explained it as one of the
best Pursuits you can have is Pursuit it
so you can pick everybody else up and
that changed a lot for me I have a a
bunch of businesses that I own right
these small businesses largely run by
blueco collar workers and I remember I
called up one of the operators in one of
my companies the guy who runs the whole
thing overseas let's call out 100
employees and contractors and I was like
I want to do events for are like line
workers so for bluecar largely Hispanic
same thing and I want to do
self-improvement events like what could
we do what would they be interested in
we'll pay them to go even and I remember
he said to me um they won't go they're
not interested in personal development
you can't find those people and I
thought that was so fascinating so I
called up a couple other operators of
some of the businesses that I owned this
was back in the day and like two or
three of them kind of like pranced
around it a little bit you know were a
little bit piece and then said the same
thing I was like that's fascinating so
are they right or like is there some
miscommunication and what I basically
realized is that the language that we
use even the people on YouTube listening
to this right now by and large most of
the people listening are already
understand the words personal
development they think it's a good thing
not a bad thing and most people that are
bluecolor workers at least in my
experience that I've worked with they
think about personal development a bit
like therapy like I told my dad I was
going to go to therapy with my husband
proactively like before we got married
he was like what's wrong are you guys
okay and I was like no no no it's
because we want to work on this thing
called marriage which seems important
and I failed at it once so like maybe we
should get some help and uh and he was
like okay that's bizarre you know and
then I told my mom kind of the same
thing now there's smart great humans but
the words meant something different to
them and so what I realized with our
group is oh man we basically have I
think there's sort of Two Worlds in the
US right now and maybe even three but
one world are you know it's kind of the
elites and the elites might even mean
white colar workers in corporate jobs
that use words like quiet quitting those
words don't [ __ ] exist in blue blue
collar land and so what I tried to do
early on is I realized I had some of
those words like oh therapy bad personal
development why what's wrong with you
you know and I had to re navigate and
negotiate my language that was the only
way I could change my relationship with
money so it started with being okay with
things like personal development which
is totally normal now um other thing
I'll say is I get really annoyed today
when
people especially like on Twitter let's
say they start saying things like oh
yeah you should just get up at 5:00 a.m.
get into an ice bath then sauna then
whatever like you know you nerds and
it's like hey I know that that seems
crazy for a lot of people but you guys
are so inculcated into this world of
being Elites that you don't even realize
you're being extra Elite by trying to
tell people that have never experienced
what it feels like to get up early and
meditate that that's unnecessary because
it's actually really powerful so instead
of trying to like break out of the you
know world we live in where people are
obsessed with personal development
realize most people are not in that
world and help them don't try to
belittle it and that is an interesting
cycle I think we're in right now today
it's like self education is bad and I
think that's so wrong I can't remember
where I heard this but somebody said it
uh it might have been you uh where
there's mystery there's money like are
people
intentionally creating a false version
of the world to keep other people
down I think in this case it's more
people don't realize that they live in
bubbles people on the internet largely
talk to other people on the internet
that are just like them and so a lot of
the people who are mouthpieces like you
and I let's say and you've been at it a
long time they never had your experience
of of hiring ex-convicts speaking to
them and driving them around Beverly
Hills never and probably they've a lot
of this generation is like solo
entrepreneurs who like that idea of
being a solo preneur and want to talk
about on the internet hey I built this
business at $10 million in 90 days and I
have no employees and I think that's a
[ __ ] tragedy I think one of the most
incredible things you can do is hire
people they're going to drive you crazy
but they're also going to mean you have
a legacy on this planet that's above and
beyond just what comes out of your body
as a small child or human and so so I
just think they don't realize how
bubbled they are and that their idea of
Happiness AKA a solo entrepreneur with
$10 million I think it's going to be
really empty in the years to come
because you know this too but there's
nothing better than watching one of your
employees change completely underneath
you could call it your leadership or
just within your culture and building
this thing where people are creating
bigger than you it's an incredible
feeling so that's my belief yeah I'm
obsessed with that moment where somebody
realizes oh I'm actually capable of more
than I thought that I was so for me it
really it really did feel like um as I
climbed my way up what I was doing was
pulling the curtain back and seeing how
the world actually works and that sense
has not stopped for me like the the
farther I go the more I learn the more I
succeed the more I'm like oh wao like
the world Works in a certain way and
getting into Finance was actually the
big thing for me that was the first time
where I felt like maybe they really is a
conspiracy like when you start to
understand what inflation really is it's
like bro what is happening so how do you
because you're a big believer in and I I
think this is something that we'll
really share so I step back and I look
at the world and I feel like it's losing
its mind and I'm like the [ __ ] is
happening and never did I think that I
would deal with culture War stuff or
anything even remotely politicky and
then I
realized that the world is tearing
itself apart because of bad ideas and
that really is my jam so how we start
getting people to pay attention to good
ideas one thing you said that really
resonated with me is getting more people
to have skin in the game because if you
own part of the house you don't want to
tear it down what do you mean by that
and what are you actually trying to help
people discover in that moment yeah
there's a famous law called tragedy of
the commons right and it's an economic
theory that is really crucial if you
want to understand why people burn
instead of build and uh I heard about it
from a famous economist by the name of
Thomas Soul um oh my God yeah if I was
going to be a fanboy for anybody it
would be Thomas me too his his book
economic facts and fallacies I think is
crucial reading for anybody that wants
to understand numbers not regurgitate
them and to do it in a way that is a
competition of ideas as opposed to let
me just shout my idea the loudest and uh
and he talks about for instance uh when
I lived in in DC I saw it firsthand we
had uh we were in a new development we
were in Columbia Heights and um you know
some of the streets were the hood some
of the streets were brand new
developments across from us was a a big
project that went up um subsidized
housing really well done pretty um and
sadly within about the year that we were
living there it went from like a nice
establishment to by the end most of the
houses board it up one year woof and uh
and I remember sitting there watching it
and at the same time I was rereading iic
facts and fallacies and Thomas Soul
talked about this about how instead of
subsidizing housing AKA making it
cheaper for people but having no skin in
the game nobody is responsible for
anything in that place and some of them
live for free what they've done is
they've taken away their personal
sovereignty you know have you guys ever
been on a street let's say and you see
those scooters around right that
everybody you can rent for a few dollars
whatever bird scooters and they're like
beat to hell you know they're thrown on
the sidewalk in Paris they throw them in
the sen uh all the time and that is the
tragedy of the Commons in action if that
was your scooter you would take care of
it but because you don't own that
scooter and you have no incentive one
way or the other to take care of it you
beat it up and you being Collective you
all of us and so um I think one of the
biggest problems in our society today we
did this huge uh research analysis and
it it shook me and it was we looked at
sub sectors in the US economy so not
just um construction but let's say
hardware stores and and roofing
companies and what we found is across I
can't remember how many sub sectors but
let's say 30 or 40 that 25 to 30% of all
sub sectors are owned by the top 10
companies in each sector and that number
is growing rapidly so we don't own our
local businesses anymore we don't own
our homes as much anymore one in four
single family homes in 2022 was bought
by an Institutional buyer and so we are
sort of we're doing the narrative that's
supposed to not be true which is that
you know you will own and be happy about
it and we're doing it um we're letting
it happen right in front of our eyes and
I think that's a horrible thing because
you have all been to I mean you've
certainly seen it here in in LA but you
go to a a Starbucks right and outside
it's like kind of dirty beat up the
greeter doesn't know your name the
Barista spells it wrong they get your
coffee the brins are kind of burnt and
it's lost what it was the mermaid is no
more and then you go to a local coffee
shop and what do you feel like it's the
same person every day I just was at one
in San Diego the other day gosh I wish I
remember his name so I could shout it
out but great little coffee shop in Bird
Rock the owner is right there he's
making the coffee for me we get to know
each other he's having a community party
on Sunday that is never going to happen
at a Starbucks and that's why owning
those small businesses is so important I
think and that skin in the game is all
the difference and then I'll shut up but
last thing is just I don't think
everybody should own a business it's
hard you know that better than anybody
you've been playing this game in a big
way but I do think having some incentive
where if I do X more I can make y more
and I can leave my stamp on the world is
really important so that's my mission I
love that I think it's really important
as you were talking so uh you're going
to own nothing and be happy so when I
got into this I really thought anybody
if you believed in any conspiracy you
were out of your mind you were like oh
jeez I like do I even have time to have
this conversation and then uh I really
started thinking about the way that
think so here's my thesis dear smart
people stop trusting yourself because
you think you're real [ __ ] clever and
I'm just going to tell you right now
you're wrong more than you're right I'm
glad you're there I'm glad the world has
smart people and I'm glad the people
really push the envelope and do things
and take chances and believe in
themselves that's not what I'm talking
about what I'm talking about is the
scientific method like you you have to
approach everything with humility and
when I hear things like You're Going To
Own nothing and be happy it's like bro
stop trying to do top down top down
always ends in tyranny not once not most
of the time it always ends in tyranny
and so seeing people snatching buildings
up or whatever one I think it's unwise
to think of it as a grand conspiracy I
think it is better to think of it as
well-intentioned people they aren't evil
they certainly don't view themselves as
evil but they they have a belief system
that we have to dunk on and we have to
understand we being anybody listening to
this that you can get so good they can't
stop you from controlling your own life
you can get so good that you can buy a
bevy of boring businesses that generate
a hundred million that's so crazy and
getting people to understand that and I
love that you used to be a journalist
that you did not go to Harvard that like
I think at one point you said I did more
keg stands than like mcap prep I forget
what the other thing was but I was just
like just oh God it was so on point and
yet you learn the rules of a game and
now you play that game well and so I've
been thinking a lot about okay my shows
evolved a lot over the years always with
the same Mission I want this moment I
want people to understand that you can
get so good at the game that nobody can
stop you that's it it's the only reason
I do all of this I work this [ __ ]
hard for that one thing and as I get
into this part of my thing where I'm
trying to have way deeper conversations
so for the person that's been following
me for seven years it's like cool in the
beginning we got your mindset right then
we helped you get your personal finances
and your relationships right and now
we're like full reality Distortion field
and what I want people to understand is
that the game of life has rules you can
Master them and you can play to win and
so the the tagline I'm noodling on uh is
life is a beautiful game because I don't
want people to hear wolves howling in
the background I don't want them to
think of CLA Schwab as an evil guy he
really thinks he's good like he really
thinks he's trying to help you and if
you approach him in that way you'll be
better off anyway I want people to
understand life is a beautiful game but
you need to master it Y and so looking
under the curtain seeing how all of this
works like that really is what I'm all
about at every level whether I'm doing a
comic book working on the video game or
doing one of these interviews it's like
lift up the curtain see how this that
see that it has rules once you know how
to play then you can really get good oh
yeah well I love that um because I think
you're right I mean think about first of
all the beautiful game is interesting
because that's what they call uh
football or soccer around the world and
which is the most viewed sport uh in the
world right globally which I love and I
think also if you think about it as a
game then you think about problems as
levels and you think about them as
natural and you start to look forward to
the solution of said problem as opposed
to expecting that life instead of a game
is a vacation with a My Thai on a beach
chair somewhere which I think is what a
lot of us expect like it should be easy
I should have this it's not fair that
this happened it's like why do we think
that we want life without some villains
in it and without some worthwhile
adversaries there's no David without
Goliath and so you need those those
enemies and adversaries because there're
you level up how boring of a game would
it be if we were just handed the prize
as soon as we walked on stage what are
we going to do with the rest of our time
and so I've really tried to program my
mind over the years and to learn from
people who look at problems and they're
like oh this is Juicy what are we going
to do about that how do you think okay
let's get curious like do we use the do
we use the lightsaber you know do we use
the laser gun and if you can do that
with business too then I think this
whole world of opportunity opens in
front of you where you become the wizard
behind the curtain
and you realize oh man you know actually
every single any game you want to play
there's rules then there's ways to break
those rules then there's Trends then
there's ripples then there's rhythms and
so as soon as you realize that you can
have fun with it I mean we're talking
beforehand about YouTube and I have so
much fun with social media online
because it is a giant game it's hyper
algorithmic there are tons of rhythms to
learn and watch from other people
there's a feedback loop that tells you
if you are succeeding or not almost
immediately and that is just like
business so if you like playing around
with social media and learning which
posts go viral because of the human
attention span then you might actually
like business too and that's why
sometimes people are like you know well
I want to be a influencer online or I
want to be a singer or an artist it's
like I don't know is that actually what
you want do you want that label or do
you want to play a game in which you
have some skill set that maybe you could
uniquely apply in order to win a little
bit more than you lose and they do want
the label I know but I don't think
they're happy once they get it they're
not because they didn't earn it but the
the and this is where I really want to
get into the way the world actually
works so this is all psychology yours
and others and the reality is people do
want fame for nothing they do want money
for nothing now what they don't
understand going back to money is just
the great facilitator so if you don't
know what you want to do it's going to
implode you no one will believe you
until they do it themselves but that
really is true and so the question is
how do we get people to understand that
in fact you've said this the happiness
is struggle and once you understand the
way that I come at it is from an
evolutionary lens so over millions of
years of evolution nature realized that
it had to put algorithms in your mind
one of those algorithms is you won't
enjoy anything if you don't work hard
for it period because nature had to make
sure you were willing to face a
saber-tooth type tiger go hunt go gather
like every day in an unrelenting parade
of difficulty and misery you had to keep
going and so there had to be a
tremendous reward for I just worked hard
this is why no one once ever said I
worked my ass off to get this thing and
I'm so sad I did it right it's like I
worked my ass off to get a thing I care
about that is important Cody Sanchez
says be careful the mountain you choose
to climb which I think is very wise but
if you worked your ass off to get
something you care about then you feel
good not just about the thing you feel
good about yourself but there's a reason
that rich kids implode because when you
get that thing it's not going to hold
the emotional weight that you wanted it
to and so the thing I fear with kids is
when I got into business I didn't do it
so I could get on the Graham the Graham
didn't exist so I spent almost 20 years
just building businesses not thinking
one day people will think I'm cool for
this I was doing it just so I could
launch my studio that that was it man I
[ __ ] ground myself into the dirt in
order to be able to do it and it was
only I was already worth hundreds of
millions of dollars before I picked up
my first social post and if I could get
people to fall in love with go get good
that will feel way better than all the
likes that you could ever get all the
followers and all of that that [ __ ] is
transient but being good at something is
forever when you get rich and or famous
you start to get around other people
that are rich and famous what's
interesting then is they can see who's
real and who's not like this and you
start to Crave actually the respect of
people that you respect and so I've seen
it implode real fast because you know I
have a I have a a friend and he's young
and he's done well made couple let's
call it tens of millions of dollars
online now but he's done it in ways that
people just don't kind of want to
associate with it and so it's also it's
this empty thing you have to pretend to
a legion of humans listening to you that
you're the real deal and yet at the same
time you
feel you can feel it and so you know
I've talked to him about it a decent
amount I'm like man you've got the thing
you're just chasing the wrong rabbit and
so you've got to find your actual real
rabbit because you're never going to
have the respect just from the likes and
clicks and you'll get it once you're
around a bunch of humans who are like oh
he's a builder oh he's got interesting
ideas no no no he's not a hustler
because that's not really what the
people that you want respect from are
interested in it's like no he's a he's a
Creator and by that I mean a creator of
value in this world and most people
don't know to strive for that they think
that we walk around comparing our bank
accounts like not did you see this I'm
real it's like no we I have no idea
what's in your B you have no I have no
idea and also if I told you you told me
we wouldn't what does that mean nothing
you can't talk about that over a dinner
table you talk about what ideas are in
your head and things are you building
that are worthwhile for us to have a
conversation that doesn't feel like
we're at the shallow end and at a
certain point that's where you want to
go when you've had some success and so
you know Lisa and I were talking about
how do you network with cool people it's
like be cool dude and I don't mean like
outfit cool I mean try to do cool or
inspiring or things that bridge your
curiosity because when you do that
eventually you just attract other people
who are interested and trying too and
that I think is the real Joy of what we
get to do is like I don't really care
about I mean you've been in this game
for a long time I met a lot of famous
people a lot of people on the interwebs
I'm like oh I could do without that
never mind not what I thought and then
you meet some Builders and you're like
this guy scrubs his one of my CEOs
scrubs his name off of the internet you
can't find it anywhere he's definit I
mean he's never told me or showed me his
bank account but a
billions and uh you couldn't find his
name anywhere and he is one of the most
interesting humans to talk to because it
is a oneofone conversation and none of
it is regurgitation and so I think it's
important that people are on the
internet like you
because otherwise you have a lot of
humans who only do Chase Fame and that's
not the the universe abhor a vacuum so
they're going to fill it with more
Kardashians or they're going to fill it
with Builders and actually no hate to
them because they're Builders now too
but maybe not the world that I want to
see exactly right I get that I'm a
little obsessed with Kim Kardashian I'm
not going to lie and when she lit the
internet on fire by saying maybe you
just need to work harder I was like yes
yes [ __ ] people need to work
harder I could not believe that that was
controversial I I I agree with that I
stand by stand in solidarity with with
Kim I don't know the rest well enough
but I will say that yes it it is what
she has built is very impressive now how
are we all supposed to feel that it
started from a sex tape I don't know she
don't care about that I think like that
sucks that somebody did that to her or
that it got out I don't know that that's
like I don't care I'm not a Puritan I
think I'm more just like oh do I really
think and I use it so what the [ __ ] you
know do I think we need more makeup
brands or more like clothing brands
everywhere interesting to me that's a
brand play and so that's all psychology
which I'm I'm all for I don't have any
beef with that and I really don't have
beef with social media and leveraging
that yeah there there is something at
the edges I've not taken the time to
dive into this so I'm really sort of
spouting off right now yeah um I think
it's probably good but that I haven't
thought about this there's there she did
um a friend of mine Matt Higgins does a
class at uh Harvard Business School
every year and he invited her in to be a
case study and I actually thought that
makes a lot of sense to me dude me too
so in the modern era but there yeah I
get it there there's something at the
edges that I well and maybe not even
that I think
um I think it's cool that humans are
building in public and I think anytime
you have people that have built multiple
billion dollar businesses not to mention
just one1 billion dollar business there
is something to learn there and you're
crazy to be a moral absolutist and I got
nothing to learn cuz it started from a
sex tape how many sex tapes are out
there and they're not billionaires so
there's [ __ ] something to learn there
um so I would take a master class from
her and her larger bank account any day
um but I do think uh I do think what I
would like to see a little bit more of
are like more people like you more
people like um you know Andy forella
more people like um you know that are
building something that I think is super
America focused that I think has like
the mission and values I'm I'm more of a
mission and values sort of human in this
world today that's interesting that is
almost certainly the thing that bothers
me I don't know that there's a I don't
know I have not looked uh but I it does
not radiate out from what they create
thank you for putting your finger on
what bothers me um yeah that's very
interesting we are living in a time
where I think it's
it's I would never have been an
entrepreneur in any other era because
for me the only thing that allows me to
work this hard is I have to hold uh
people a small group of people that I
actually know and love and show up every
day fighting for them so Quest it was
fighting for my mom and my sister they
were morbidly obese I wanted to make
food that they could choose based on
taste and it happened to be good for
them and so I was willing to fight for
that I was willing to make choices that
cost me hundreds of millions of dollars
in order to just well this is either
going to help them or it's not this
decision makes me more money this
decision actually helps them um and so I
was really proud of that uh with impact
Theory it it is again a very small group
of people and unfortunately I've been to
one of their funerals already and that's
[ __ ]
heartbreaking um but just the changes he
made in his life before just car
accident is [ __ ] dumb but um watching
him change his life was unbelievable and
it was just an incredible reminder of
how this stuff really works but when you
have that mission that leaks out
hopefully through the choices that you
make the products that you build and
that we're living in an era where that's
also great marketing yeah it's hard to
beat obsession you know you can have all
the tactics and
tools and money and leg up but if
somebody's obsessed with the thing
they're spending every day
building they're hard to beat because
they'll just work longer they'll
sacrifice more and uh you I do think
that your success level often is tied to
the sacrifice that you're willing to
give it doesn't mean you have to work
100 hours a week um but it does mean you
need to sacrifice a lot if you want to
achieve massive success and I think
anybody who says you don't probably has
never played the game no there's no way
there is no way um everyone has to fight
against entropy yeah and so I won't say
that nobody ever got you know didn't get
lucky of course some people have gotten
lucky but that's just going to be such a
minor minor minor minor minor minor
thing but the thing that's fascinating
sitting down across from you who is a
fellow Builder is that you actually know
how to do this so what I want to do now
is go okay look we've talked mindset
hopefully understand that money isn't
what you thought it's actually more
powerful but it's different uh you
really can do this um it really is about
pulling back the curtain it's about
Understanding Psychology knowing how the
world Works understanding how to insert
yourself into it but to do that for
anybody at home that's like okay I want
to do this but now let's get into the
real tactics so that Obsession becomes a
set of skills it really is that simple
and how do people I think it's really
twofold one how do they know which
mountain to climb it might be worth
telling that oh wonderful story and then
once they know what mountain to climb
let's really get into the how doth one
climb a business Mountain well um I
think we all missed the class in high
school where they taught us to know
thyself you know oracle ad deli style
but I do think nice reference by way
yeah that was good was that was that
highbrow very elite of
you H Riot holiday would be proud I feel
like that was very stoic of me he's
already leaving a comment in the feed I
can feel it uh so I think um man if I
could have gone back and done something
different that would have gotten me out
of working in corporate jobs that I
didn't really like for like 12 years um
even though I was accum I was stacking
cash as I was doing it what would have
changed that for me would have been if I
had thought more about who am I and what
do I want and so if anybody listening
hasn't actually written down
consistently I mean I did it daily you
can do it weekly monthly but you know
what are the things that like doing
every single day what am I actually
uniquely skilled at what do people come
to me for advice on what do I do and
focus on even when I've never paid a
dollar and nobody's watching that one's
big you know what are the things that I
find so interesting that I become
obsessed with them and it's like they
talk about that flow State the whole
world just goes wom and you're just
you're narrowed in and maybe even your
family's annoyed because you won't shut
up about this one thing that you're
doing all the time right where can you
find those things and as you narrow in
as those they don't have to become um I
think a lot of people then go video
games it's like no no no be more
granular than that is it wow I get
obsessed with the characters or I really
like thinking about the technology on it
or I kind of understand how this video
game grew this much try to get really
granular and I wish I had done that
earlier because then I could have found
games that I actually wanted to play I
was too scared that I didn't have some
big startup idea like yours I didn't
have any ideas I just was like I want to
work hard I want to make money I want to
do what I like to do can we pause on
that for a second yeah so one thing I
heard you say in another interview and I
was like oh my God know thyself as you
said you said um I'm never going to have
the next idea about a music app or
whatever that's just not me and I was
like whoa because people want to be cool
they want to be the person with the big
Ideas everybody thinks they want to be
the CEO but not everybody's wired for
that and then even if they are they may
not be a product-led CEO maybe they're a
people Le CEO or a process CEO whatever
but not everybody has to be in that same
thing but once you own okay that's not
me now you can start narrowing your
focus to what your strategy is going to
be and that's the cool thing about you
is that you really have taken a super
unique path to generating I repeat just
under a hundred million a year as
bananas so the fact that you were able
to do that in a unique path but it's
born out of finally going oh I'm just
going to be honest about who I really am
and what I actually respond to the
question I tell people to ask themselves
along those lines is when you're trying
to figure out what it is that you want
to do first of all who is it you want to
serve because you'll never fight hard
enough unless you're serving somebody y
but what is the thing that you're
prepared to become the best in the world
at because if you're just prepared to
get good you'll get crushed but and look
you're probably never going to actually
become the best but when you think about
that you know that's going to be ungodly
difficult and then at least you're
approaching the problem honestly yeah
well well actually my husband has us do
this incredible thing that I love which
is instead of saying what do I want what
are my goals it's what do I want and
what am I willing to sacrifice to get it
preach and so he has me do this with him
every year because I'm the workaholic
he's actually balanced really yeah I
know which is to say that about a Navy
SEAL feels like off I say it's like now
you know how [ __ ] up I am but uh you
know he he is not singularly driven by
money and the creation of an Empire and
I am interesting um and I'm not driven
by money in my pocket because I
basically deploy all of it say for
anybody that's looked into your
background that is very clear yeah but
uh but I just find it fascinating I want
to just build this huge thing I want the
billion dollar business contr yeah must
be and I also just think it's fun it's
my favorite thing if I have to talk
about the weather or PTA meetings I'm
gonna just now are you uh like the
Oracle of Omaha where it's like
literally just a scoreboard thing no I
think I will get to a certain
Point um where there'll be a new game
like he has we've talked about this
before he has singular Focus for decades
I mean I I told this story on Twitter
once but I sat next to this guy on a
plane I actually think if you have
enough cash to do it first class even
today where everybody's posting about
their private jets or whatever first
class today is one of the best
investments you can make if you sit and
talk with some of the other people in
first class except not me CU I hate
talking to people on planes I going say
facts if you SE facts
you can say hi that's lovely but I don't
want to talk to whole flight but what's
fascinating is if you get to the
generation above ours so let's call it
50 60 7080 I was flying back from
somewhere in France must have been Khan
or nce and uh I was flying to the UK and
I sat next to this guy Joffrey Kent who
created abomi and Kent you remember that
company I don't luxury travel company
first company that created those Safari
uh tent experience very right he grew up
with nothing in South Africa built up
these tent companies by himself then
created one of the largest luxury travel
companies in the world uh friends with
the King of England now like fancy
billions billionaire and anyway he was
flying next to me which I thought was
kind of interesting I was like huh like
thought he'd be on a jet he's like I'd
like to fly commercial I'm like all
right we get to talking and I'm like all
right you ran Aban Kent you sold it
twice once for a billion dollars and
then going to sell it again and probably
for another X and bought it back um I'm
like what was the secret yeah he's
fascinating um I was like what is what
do you think the secret is like you did
this for 60 years like billions in in um
in valuation and he's like well he's
like 60 years plus the same thing it's
like time plus consistency beats
everything else and I was like God
that's so true and not what people want
to hear because most people hear oh you
could be a billionaire at 97 years old
like Warren Buffett no thanks I'd rather
have my crypto Millions to today and
they think they think but I sit there
and listen to that and I'm like this is
fascinating like what if the only thing
that separates a billionaire and you is
time of working really hard on a
particular thing plus consistency of
doing that thing and getting better and
iterating every single day that means
that we have a much more even playing
field than I think people will tell you
today it compounds there's no doubt we
were talking before we started rolling
this is my mental illness I I really
really I have a very hard time narrowing
my focus and I am so keenly aware that
narrowing my focus will give me better
results but the problem is I'm also a
human and so I have to love my life yeah
and so when I'm very envious of people
like my wife for whom the thing she
wants to spend her time doing and
becoming the best at she loves from top
to bottom and so she's just all about it
I there thankfully it's not like I have
seven things that I'm trying to do but I
have two and I cannot seem to stop
myself they're tied but they there is a
big enough Gap that I'm well aware if I
would just do like media be in front of
the camera or I would just do uh
storytelling game development my life
would be better it it would be more
productive in either direction and only
mental illness stops me from doing that
and I mean that very sincerely I'm not
happy about that uh but at least know
thyself I know that about myself we do
things in the company to protect us from
that do you think why why do you think
that that's bad like Warren Buffett has
multiple things and is one of the
richest men in the world does he because
he as far as I know and I may just not
know but as far as I know he's he is
purely investing he finds he if if you
abstract out to what he understands how
to do is recognize a deal when he sees
it that's it as far as I can tell that's
all worn by knows how to do that plus
operate I don't know I don't know him
well enough to know if if he operates
from what I he doesn't operate like did
you ever hear the Charlie Munger quote
that's um he said uh oh it might not
have been Charlie it might have been his
mentor he said um you know the
difference between good leaders and bad
leaders is uh when I hire a dog I don't
do the Barking for it and wow that's
good and I thought that has really
driven a lot of mind business building
is realizing I'm like you I'm in some
ways I I like I like hands and pots
which is not very good for Focus um but
what I found is that there are a lot of
people who are singular Focus
individuals to do incredibly well with
one thing in front of them and so those
end up being my number twos and you know
you've built massive wealth so you're
obviously very good at Focus too but
sometimes I wonder like is there just
one way I mean maybe there is a main
thing in a side piece I really think
there are physics yeah I I think that
whoever you point to oh God I'm going to
ruin my own example here because I was
going to say except for Elon Musk like
it's freakish but I so here's what I
think origin yes but the vast majority
of his career was just focused on Amazon
it wasn't until he started really
starting to pull away and he had so many
of the world's most talented people
working for him um and my problem isn't
putting my hand in too many pots because
I don't want to do people's jobs I am
not a micromanager as I tell people if I
micr managing you it's because you're
not delivering results I don't want to
pay attention to you what I want to do
is the part I like the part that I'm
uniquely good at that's all I want to
focus at and if I'm getting results in
other areas amazing the problem is when
you're the CEO you have a bigger
responsibility you have to paint Vision
you have to keep people excited anyway
um I I have a
feeling that even Elon Musk there I mean
look there might be networking things
that work for him but I have a feeling
each one of his companies would be
better off if he gave it 100% of his
time and focus it's just that he is such
a freak and the rate at which he can
think Y and also of his own admission
he's not the CEO of many of his
companies he's usually the lead product
and engineer guy yeah and so his mind
just seems to work very very fast so
there's some level of what's the speed
at which you think and how many tasks do
you take on so for instance if I could
think faster which would not be a
stretch I am not a fast thinker I a fast
talker who thinks slowly and deeply
about a lot of subjects and so I confuse
people who think I'm a fast talk uh fast
thinker but I'm not so if I could think
faster then I could have more output
across more things but I can't and so
alas it it it really is holding us back
so anyway getting into the the Tactical
side here so you need to be you need to
know yourself you need to know what your
skill set is to be very careful not to
misalign your particular skill set with
the way that you contribute but the cool
thing when you realized okay I'm not
going to come up with the next next
business idea I'm going to go buy a
business how did you begin to build a
criteria because you have so many
specific criteria from your get-rich
tripod to your deal valuations have to
meet certain criteria like you've really
systematized the stuff how did you in
the beginning when you didn't have any
of that yeah how did you begin to
formulate it uh I have a very bad memory
and
so yeah so one of the worst things about
a bad memory is you can't remember
things one of the best things is you
have to processe everything and that
Frameworks and memes or um you know
specific vernacular actually help you
remember and so the reason that I have
the get-rich tripod and you know my
dealbox and you know our rules and
thesis for investing is because I have
to remember otherwise I do bad deals and
so I think one of the super Powers you
can have have is as you're going on your
journey what I had to do I didn't mean
to do it was document these frames that
I lived buy because one when you're in
charge you got to communicate it to
people so I would go hey what kind of
businesses do we buy and they'd say like
brt right we buy boring businesses that
are recession resistant we raise the
prices we add technology is the business
that you're putting in front of me a brt
business no it's not okay go find
another one um and so I would use it to
communicate to people and to really
communicate with myself which is half
the [ __ ] on my Twitter is like yelling
at Cody um and uh probably I don't know
if you're the same exactly the same like
when people are like oh man like you're
being so hard on people I'm like bro I
am talking to myself it's it's all Al a
reminder at some point I'll have to just
be like lessons to Cody and it'll just
be my Twitter feed um but I like to
framework them out for that reason and
the way that you do that is just by
taking inventory I make so many mistakes
all the time even like 15 16 years into
doing deals I just had a deal go bad
last month and I'm like God you'd think
I'd figure this out by now and every
time that happens I have a post uh op so
just like after you have surgery or
after you have a game you sit down and
you analyze what went well and what went
wrong we do that for every single deal
we do that go sideways do you have a
structure for that are you running them
against the brrt or we run them against
our entire investing framework so we
usually have something called due
diligence questions so it's called a
dddq and we we build out our ddq list is
now gigantic and it's graded so like
what's most important to what's least
important and then we look at these
deals and we say what did we learn and
so in this most recent deal I realized
gosh I have a flaw with Partners I pick
bad Partners if these characteristics
are there if they're friends of mine
already I let them in and I skip a bunch
of stuff in the dddq so now I go oh okay
now I have a new rule and the rule is No
New Friends you know I don't do deals
with new people uh until we've been
together for a long time otherwise they
go to this other person on my team and
they run them through the typical due
diligence cuz I have a weak spot there
and so everything that I'm doing it's
just like you know when you play a sport
um you know or when you when you do a
video game like you go through and
you're like what went wrong there oh I
can't step out here because then the car
hits me or like I can't do can't go out
to the left because that means the guy's
going to get there he's faster than I am
and I think we don't do that enough in
business so I am
non-stop action analyze action analyze
document and as long as you do that aad
then I find that I can kind of
continuously make better decisions if
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