Kind: captions
Language: en
step bonell welcome back to the show hey
thanks for having me no I'm excited to
man obviously everything going on you
are at the center of a lot of attention
right now um there's been a
characterization of your response to the
attempted assassination of trump as
being uh unhinged or a manic episode
what is your best explanation for why
the way you've responded actually makes
sense I think that the discourse in the
United States has gotten so un un
believably out of whack in that the
amount of moral condemnation that we
have for certain types of messages is
not at all mapping on to the amount of
damage uh a particular idea or thing is
doing I don't know how it has happened
this is like a recent idea that's kind
of come to me and I've spent a lot of
time recently thinking about it but
somehow conservatives have managed to
escape almost all accountability for
their actions but for some reason
liberals have to uh you know fall to
their knees and gravel and beg for
forgiveness every single time something
happens that might possibly be related
to them uh you'll see liberals you know
begging and pleading for forgiveness for
the BLM riots or you know we've had over
the recent um few weeks you know every
single liberal news station is talking
about Biden and his s his cility and his
need to step down and conservatives when
you ask them about anything like January
6th that was a false uh false flag uh um
for the governor kidnapping plot uh gret
and Whitmer uh that was uh you know that
was just the FBI they wouldn't have done
it otherwise uh for all the vaccine and
the co misinformation like well you know
it's not misinformation that's all still
true and we just don't trust vaccines
anymore like the worlds of these two
people are totally Divergent and I think
that unfortunately I think I've been
involved in this game of treating both
similarly even though I say that they're
not of the same magnitude that the
problems aren't the same magnitude and I
think I've given by the way that I
affiliate with or the way that I engage
with right-wingers I think that I've
given too much Credence to that side in
terms of making their arguments seem
more legitimate than they are so I am
reentering a lot of my rhetoric and a
lot of my engagement back to where I
think it should have been for a longer
period of time in that these ideas are
absolutely unhinged you guys are in a
totally different world and there needs
to start being like more cultural
accountability for the types of crazy
insane things that you're saying okay so
um would it be a fair characterization
to say that the amplitude of your
response is necessary to get people to
accurately identify the difference in
scope between the um the ideas that the
conservatives are putting forth and
getting away with and the ideas that the
uh Liberals are putting forth and being
um hounded for um yeah a little bit like
I think in a in a more fair world where
the um where the amplitude I guess of
the responses of different behaviors on
both sides was more mapped on to what I
thought it would be my my response might
be a little bit lower uh to be clear
also and I've said this multiple times
like I don't think it's a good thing
when people die I don't want anybody to
die I don't think anybody should be
killing anybody for political reasons
but um to beg for sympathy or to pretend
that you deserve sympathy um because of
you know violence might have happened at
a given event when your side has been
driving up the temperature of this
country and engaging in the most and
celebrating the most divisive politics
in like recent US History uh is is inan
to me so I
the way I try to think through my own
life and the way that I encourage other
people to think through theirs is what
is my goal and what are the actions that
I can take that are going to get me to
my goal um so when I think of what
you've been doing over the last call it
two years you've really made yourself
the go-to liberal that people on either
side of the spectrum are going to want
to engage with and you really have made
uh you've you've been incredibly
respectful you've been very thoughtful
you um are extremely good in debating
and so suddenly it felt like we had two
sides that could really come together
and the response to the debate that you
did with Ben Shapiro on Lex I think is
proof of that huge number of views and
we got to see really different uh
Vantage points politically coming
together to have a fruitful conversation
then after um Corey uh was killed and
your reaction came out that was very
inflammatory I would say it seemed
intentionally
inflammatory uh I was like are you
now rebranding like what you're trying
to put forward like I'm done pretending
to be civil and nice and this is where I
really wanted to be the whole time or
are you going to renormalize like walk
me through the the dramatic change in
presentation so the way that my my
YouTube editor gave me kind of this idea
in that I kind of like I can have long
legs and short arms or I can have long
arms and short legs that at my most
aggressive I have very short legs but
very long arms meaning that if I get you
in my grasp I'm going to be incredibly
compelling uh because I'm going to be
making very strong arguments in the most
aggressive manner possible with the most
overwhelming like style of argumentation
um but my my legs are very short at that
point I can't get out of my community
very much cuz people just see me as
being incredibly aggressive and they
like okay I want to talk to this guy
like this guy's like way too you know
he's way too mean and Deb or whatever um
I think before I had very long legs but
very short arms and that I hate that
comment that you just made it actually
has been eating away at my brain for
months and I've complained about this on
stream this has been building for
probably um probably for the entire year
if you go and you look at the debates
that I've done with Candace ens with
Jordan Peterson with Ben Shapiro the
comments under all these videos are the
exact same wow what a nice debate it's
so nice that these people have spoken to
each other wow cool that we can come
together and talk wow what a nice debate
I hate that because nobody's actually
considering any of being said they're
just happy that two people can sit in a
room and talk to each other however for
me to do this requires me to to blunt my
perception of the world so much and to
blunt my desired engagement with some of
the things that people are saying it is
physically excruciating for me uh it is
psychologically uh like destroying me
that
um like an example that I give for Ben
Shapiro is like I had this whole like
train of like I'll plot out rhetorically
and factually like how I want to think
about a debate before I go into it and
all these notes are public I I talk
about this on stream and for Ben Shapiro
I had this whole line of I want to prove
to you that you guys treat Donald Trump
differently than you guys treat Joe
Biden like you guys you great him on a
curve and I asked him that question in
the Le Prem I was like do you think that
you guys grade Donald Trump on a curve
and he was like yeah of course and I was
like
oh and it just like short circuited my
brain I could have had a two-hour
conversation on just that topic alone
and I don't like that I've had these
conversations with people and all I feel
like I'm doing is I'm shortening the
Overton window where you have all of
these insane people the Hans the voses
the people far on the left that in my
opinion are are just insane and then you
got these insane far right people um
that I would say right now is the
majority of the conservative movement
that all follow Donald Trump and what
happens is is when I show up to debate
I'm not as crazy as these guys so I'm
here what happens is when I show up to
debate I've I've shortened the overt
window and now the viewers are like okay
well this guy seems cool and reasonable
he's representing something so like
maybe I'll move from like here to like
here but now I have much stronger
conviction because I see that like this
guy's represented the left and I've
heard their arguments and now I'm like
over here and it's like no to be clear
like my position might be here but in my
mind the reasonable discourse is like
from here to like here like these guys
that I'm talking to over here that I'm
being nice to and I'm being cordial to
are are absolutely insane like we are on
a crash course for this country to like
into Oblivion and I have to talk to
these guys like they're normal
intelligent thinking human beings like I
have to sit across with Jordan Peterson
saying oh 20% excess deaths in Europe
are all caused by the vaccine and I'm
like okay yeah wow that's a that's a
take yeah or yeah yeah I can there's a
million examples but it's not good it's
not okay it's not cool okay so I want to
understand that very last part it's not
okay it's not good it's not cool
um it implies that there is a
destination that you're trying to get to
what is that
destination I think before like before
like uh what six days ago I think my
destination was always like trying to
present a more understandable argument
on my side and kind of like move people
a little bit closer meet them where they
were and move them a little bit closer
but I think especially as I've begun to
read more uh I feel like the time is
running shorter on that so now my focus
has very violent and very shifted to
okay well if you're a liberal here are
the reasons why you about these
particular things and here are the like
three arguments that you need to be
beating every single conservative over
the head with from now until the
election you don't talk about anything
else until you've run through these
three things nothing else is allowed to
be spoken about until you until you've
gotten this it's insane that they're
allowed to skirt by on these things and
nobody makes them like account for them
that's so that's that's where I'm at
right now basically yeah okay so the
three things that you want to go over
and over
um I don't remember all three but I know
that January 6 is one that the it was an
interaction yeah it's like not the
reasonable Minds cannot disagree on this
point okay so the goal behind getting
every conservative to confront those
things namely the Insurrection uh just
cannot be looked past uh is to get them
to vote for Biden to get them to break
out of cult-like thinking what what is
the end game to that confrontation
there's four levers I think when it
comes to mobilizing voters in a twers
race you can either uh and is that the
goal mobilize voters in a two-person
race kind of well there there's four
things there there's four ways to do it
you can either increase or decrease the
turnout on your side or you can increase
or decrease the turnout on the other
side um so I guess my goal is to
decrease the turnout On The Other Side
by demotivating like hey the guy that
you're voting for is an insurrectionist
okay like here are the reasons why you
should not like this candidate even if
you're conservative you shouldn't like
this candidate um and then on my side
it's to increase it's to motivate so hey
this is a really important election
regardless of what you think about Biden
reasonable Minds cannot disagree on what
this election should look like there's
just there's no place for a reasonable
disagreement here um the only people
that are disagreeing are people that are
bought and paid for people that do
propaganda or people that just don't
have the information um so that the
third that third group I'm also kind of
hitting at although it's hard because I
have to be very aggressive and that's a
very uh not good way to appeal to
somebody that just doesn't have the
information because now you make them
feel like a piece of [ __ ] just because
they don't know something but um the
problem is that working against me um
you can also interrupt me at any time
too I say but um no go for it something
that is always been working against me
is you have the left you've got the
right and then you've got this group of
people in the middle that call
themselves centrists and they're all
conservative all of them are
conservative every single one carries
water for Donald Trump you will never
find a person who goes oh I'm like a
Centrist I think I'd probably support
Biden those people don't exist all of
them are the Tim
the the constantines the um the Steven
CR doesn't call cist any any of these
any of these like people that call
themselves oh we're like Centrist you
know we're not politically partisan all
of them support Donald Trump Elon Musk
right all of them support Donald Trump
and so when I go out and argue I'm
instantaneously thrust to the far left
just because all of these people in the
center give the illusion of me being
further left than I actually am which is
very very very frustrating and those are
the people that have to come out very
aggressively against Okay so so there
are a lot of different pieces here so
one um there's one thing that you left
out that is a potential thing for people
looking at Trump they're not necessarily
just uninformed or whatever you gave
three reasons yeah uh but the one
missing is that they're looking at the
same thing you're looking at and they
see something different so this isoss
well I I will invite you into my
interpretation of humanity and then you
can tell me if I'm crazy and by the way
I consider myself a interest sure uh so
in this show one I if the uh election
were today I'd be voting for RFK which I
think you also have beef with him uh so
we can certainly go down go down that
road um and I can certainly explain why
and what I'm looking for but my point
being that uh the one thing I think when
people assess Human animals is they fail
to understand what I call frame of
reference so frame of reference you can
think of goggles that people wear they
are wildly distorted and so you are
looking at the world through a different
set of distortions than I'm looking at
the world and so we both say hey let's
look at this camera we're looking at it
and we may see two very different things
because of the distortions through which
we view that uh I think there are three
things that make up those um distortions
they are biology so we're all a little
bit different uh then you've got beliefs
and you've got values so beliefs are
this is how I think the world is values
are this is how I believe the world
ought to be
and between those three things hey it
doesn't matter what you look at it only
matters what you see so I I will say I
think you will have a hard time
predicting the outcome of your actions
if you don't account for that
possibility uh because then you can at
least map it right so I understand what
you're saying and I agree with every
single thing you've said 100% I truly
truly with all my heart believe that um
and I've never not a single time and if
any conservative wants to have a debate
with the on this I will gladly do it I
have never a person that will disagree
when confronted with all the facts about
the Insurrection stuff the only way that
they survive that argument is in the end
to admit that it was an Insurrection but
it was one for a good cause that's the
only Escape it is undeniable otherwise
um every single conservative I've ran
through these arguments with um unless
they're denying some fundamental fact
they have to arrive at the end where
they're like okay fine maybe he did do
these things but it's because the
election was stolen it's because of that
then it's like okay that's cool but
you're just justifying the Insurrection
now which and and I'm not I'm an
American I can't say there's no
justification for an Insurrection ever
right that's what 1776 was um but that's
yeah I I understand what you're saying
and I understand now especially people
that listened to me in the past it seems
like I've flipped a switch from like
wait this guy used to be really
reasonable now he's saying it's my way
or the highway it feels like he's become
a demagogue just like everybody else but
I think that the I've been I've paid too
much lip service um and I hate myself
for it because I've made it seem like
these arguments on the right had so much
more validity to them than they ever did
and they didn't if two people are in a
room and one tells me that humans can
fly and the other tells me that humans
can just jump there is no middle ground
between these two people and it doesn't
make somebody close-minded to to say
that the person who says they can fly is
just completely and totally factually
incorrect but uh so without derailing
into that just uh I guess I I'll plant a
slight flag to my point about these
narratives is the person hearing that
humans can't fly are going to be like
bro I flew to get here like I was
literally in an airplane yesterday and
now we're going to get into definition
of terms which is what you meant was
without the a like right but this is
exactly where I think another exit ramp
for people that don't believe January 6
was an Insurrection is that it simply
doesn't meet the legal definition of an
Insurrection so one of the things that
may or may not come out today as we talk
is I think a lot of these things are
really meant to find out what does a
person value and right now
um people often don't drill down into
that and if we ran it rather than um
asking somebody to believe in or not
believe in January 6th which they're
going to have arguments preconceived
notions that they may be blind to
themselves you just say imagine a
president who did an Insurrection and
they were rerunning against a candidate
what would need to be true where you
would still vote for that candidate and
then you can just begin to figure out
what their value system is and and where
it breaks down then we can now have the
argument at the level of how we believe
the world ought to be so for instance I
have a value that says you just Prima
fascia you cannot elect a president that
has declining cognitive abilities so
okay you don't even need to debate
whether yet whether Joe Biden does or
doesn't we just talk about whether
that's a logical way to approach this or
not anyway we'll get that get to that um
so you've got this layer of what I call
narrative so people are wearing these
Distortion lenses and they're seeing the
world in a way that is wildly different
than you um and what I worry about and
what made me reach out to you and say
hey I really want to uh book a sit down
is I saw people trying to dismiss you
because of the way that you were acting
so there's the performative layer of you
were clearly pissed it is how it looked
you may use a slightly yeah I was upset
I do stand by everything I said though
yeah yeah which you'll notice I'm not
asking you to take it back nor do I even
care I'm just my thing is that I look
out at the world and I'm looking for
people to be a part of my sense making
apparatus I don't agree with everything
that Sam Harris says but I think he's
wicked smart and I want to be able to
use him as a part of my sensemaking
apparatus and I get very worried that
the world just wants to discard him sure
it's one of the few people I would agree
with you on I think amazing I think you
are an incredible part of the sense
making apparatus just kid and I worry
that you you have given people the
world's easiest way to dismiss you and
people are lever in that and it will
work very well for a huge swath of
humanity now my gut instinct is that
you're
so you're so smart that either you
really just got so pissed you snapped
and and used a um not worthwhile tactic
from my perspective or it goes back to
the initial thing that we said which is
that uh I am not going to be able to
persuade the people I need to persuade
unless I go black to back to my blood
sport
era I think that um so I'll say this as
a precautionary thing um just to let
people know that I keep this in mind and
it's important for everybody to keep
this in mind um and I'm sure you do as
well you seem like you keep a lot of
things in mind that uh it's very easy to
rationalize any Behavior Uh and you can
fall into a trap of post talk
rationalizing it and you're actually
just being emotional uh so I do keep
this in mind um because it's easy to act
out and then to post talk like okay well
actually it makes sense because of ABC
you know to write the reasons for it but
the way that I see it is um my
goal if we go very very very very
foundational okay so I believe I exist I
exist as a person um there are other
people around me I think that in order
for me to live the best life that I can
I have to collaborate with other people
that two or three humans together can
produce something far greater than these
two or three people operating
independently right so we have we're a
collaborative species we specialize into
different tasks as we come together and
we work there's like certain kinds of we
need a system to make that work because
we specialize and because we don't have
the ability to do um everything not even
just in terms of work but in terms of
like securing our possess uh our
possessions securing our family members
and all this we have to agree on some
rules um like you know let's say that
there's 10 people that live on a block
and they all have a house and they all
buy new couches if you're allowed to
steal couches from each other it might
seem cool because today I can go and
steal couch but tomorrow any one of
those people could steal your couch
right it's not good so you all have to
agree on some rules as part of agreeing
on those rules at some point you can't
enforce them so you UST like third
parties to enforce those rules for you
uh so institutions like the police or
executive agencies or whatever right um
all this to say that you build all of
this out and you end up with some form
of governance that ensures like the the
best balance of personal freedom with
rules and regulations that allow you to
live in the freest way possible Right
Where as long as you're not a toddler
you understand that like the freest way
possible doesn't mean you have absolute
freedom um I'm sure you know this
because you seem like you do a lot of
self-improvement stuff I think that when
people go from being uh very um I don't
want to say lazy but they have a ton of
time and they don't do anything and
whatever into scheduling their time that
sometimes through discipline you find
more freedom like oh my God if I start
scheduling I didn't realize how many
hours there were in the day if I more
strict scheduling my time right so
sometimes like having more rules more
restrictions more agencies more
regulations like enables more types of
Freedom right all of that to say okay so
you build this out um I believe that I
don't know if it was Churchill that said
it somebody said that like democracy um
what is the quote it's like or maybe it
was a capital either capitalism or
democracy is it's like not the greatest
but it's the best we have or whatever
there's a there's a much better best of
the worst system something like that
yeah do a voice over me nailing that
quote okay I don't remember what the
quote was but okay you'll get that in
post okay um yeah but the um the system
that we have the principles that this
country was built on are very very very
awesome okay you had a unique
opportunity to get very intelligent
people together to like Theory craft
like the best government how often are
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code right usually things develop way
more organically you know you've got
Empires and kings and these things kind
of you know spell out from here but for
the US you know you had a bunch of
people sit down like okay well what's
worked and what hasn't worked you know
and then we're going to like we're we're
going to make these like corny names you
know puus we're going to write papers to
each other we're going to argue and
debate and it's going to be this Lively
huge thing to form like the coolest best
government ever and there's a reason why
I believe that two things one the United
States is the largest most dominating
country in the world right now that's
undeniable and two the United States has
the oldest surviving constitution of any
country in the world even though we're
relatively Young country our founding
document we have the longest surviving
original constitution of any country
that exists in the world I think that
these systems are really important I
think that somebody like Trump I don't
believe a reasonable mind could disagree
with me when I say that he represents a
threat to that order and that to support
him in any way size shape or form
represents an existential threat to that
order so when I'm arguing with people
now if they're too far gone to that side
and it would require me to compromise on
so many principles I think I would
rather energize people on my side more
and give them more arguments and be
involved in a more kind of like uh like
shaming or bullying of like certain
types of ideas that I just don't think
should be able to to pass
um you know unchallenged in in a highly
critical sense rather than going to
conservatives and then them thinking
like oh cool yeah that Destiny guy like
he's real reasonable I'm glad that we
could have a conversation about whether
or not mRNA vaccines are morphing your
DNA and now I don't believe in like
polio vaccines anymore like I actually
think that yeah this guy's really cool
that he could like hear that opinion and
like be chill with it and it's like what
are we talking about right now that's my
yeah that was a very very very
roundabout answer that I hit your
original question I think which well we
we certainly have gotten to somewhere um
really useful which is that
revealing somebody's underlying base
assumptions is exactly what you have to
have what you need to do to have a
substantive debate or conversation and
so one of the things driving your
animist so the the real thing I was
trying to get to in the beginning is
dude you're so effective at getting
people's attention I think you maybe
don't understand how many people like me
um never heard about you in the blood
sport era but did hear about you once
you were like I'd be talking to people
that helped me run the show and they
would say oh cuz I don't want to be
unbalanced so I want to bring people on
from both sides when I'm dealing with a
political issue or a cultural issue
which is where I spend most of my time
uh they were like oh Destiny's the guy
had never heard of you went and looked
at you and was like oh wow this guy has
like really got some of the um
aggressive debating tendencies that you
do traditionally see more on the left
it's not name calling it's going Point
by point and so watching you switch your
um your performative layer and turning
off so many people uh I was suddenly I
could no longer map you I couldn't
predict your behavior I didn't know
where you were going so um but Trump is
an animating Force for you so uh Trump
is an existential threat to the systems
and the documents that were founded upon
and that's part of what's driving your
animus yeah and um this goes back to the
same Collision that I'm having with Sam
Harris which is brilliant guy um but he
is
now viol he he now sits outside of not
just disagreement with me on where we
necessarily want to end up but we start
disagreeing on how people ought to
behave and so um I for one am willing to
suffer the consequences of letting a
mixed bag in terms of Education in terms
of intellect awareness of policies and
consequences and all that group of
people um vote I I am perfectly willing
to live in that country knowing that um
anything else is just going to be worse
than that that's that's my base
assumption now you have something
different which is when I see that we
have somebody who has presented
themselves as a threat I and this is a
paraphrase of something you said on a
previous podcast by all means if you
think I misunderstand it let me know but
you said um I don't even want to live in
a country where roughly half of the
country want want to see our
institutions deteriorated yeah um so
that then to me now okay now the way
that you went on the attack uh where it
was I'm not even sure how to categorize
it but the lightning rod moment was
where you said I have no sympathy for
Corey uh comparator who was killed at
the Trump rally that was just the the
thing that everybody grabbed a hold of
including myself where I was like I was
really trying to parse what you were
actually saying which is the argument
that you would die on is that that
person is not worthy of sympathy and I
was like that person is not worthy as of
sympathy as an argument just made me go
okay I I can no I no longer have a
reliable map of where you're at so when
I look at Trump is a threat to order but
the tool used is to say that people that
show up at Trump's rallies are not
worthy of sympathy that's where I'm like
now you trigger my thing about division
is the only thing that guarantees us a
bad outcome and so I have a
um knee-jerk reaction that that will not
get you where you want to go so far the
only thing I know about where you want
to go is you want to make sure the
people vote for Biden that's very acute
but so far um that's what we've mapped
in this discussion so I don't agree that
division guarantees a bad outcome I
think that the I think that that demands
greater attention I mean by definition
there has to be some division in the
country because we're a two-party
country right so the structurally um
there has to be some division there um I
think that division is only good or uh
alternate points are only good if
everybody is representing things and
they're making Fair justifiable
arguments that ought to exist in your
system um you play the game EV online no
but I know of it okay I I learned a lot
of like weird management tips in that
game one of the things I learned uh we
would fit our ships out to do like
doctrines or whatever and we would have
a couple encounters and we were getting
like wiped it was horrible and one thing
that I realize is that when we make a
new doctrine I always have to appoint a
guy to argue against it like as be best
faith possible um and I think in like
intelligence and I think in large
companies you would probably know this
more than I would actually you have like
red teams basically people who do like
penetration testing to make sure that
you're like staying honest um if you
wanted to move in a direction for your
company
and let's assume that you have a guy and
you're like tell me why this isn't a
good idea what would you do right or how
would you do this right if you had
another guy who was trying to tell you
like hey uh I think that uh expanding
internationally is bad here's why or I
think that you should focus more on this
demographic or whatever right like this
is a good type of tension it's a good
type of division it's another person
who's representing fair and reasonable
arguments and the ideally that tensing
of both sides is creating something
stronger and better on both sides I'm
not even necessarily saying that the
truth is in the middle I'm just saying
that the tension is keeping both sides
grounded and Tethered to reality if you
um in the management of your company
appointed another guy to argue against
you and you're like okay I think that
it's time to I want to expand offices in
this state and he's like we can finally
execute this plan I've had where if we
were to just like abduct like 400
children and hold them hostage okay and
you're like stop okay and he's like no
no no this is the time for the the child
hostage plan trust me right this is not
valuable it's not worthwhile it's not
good that these arguments aren't
furthering anything uh if anything
you're wasting time now dealing with
this guy who it's like I don't want to
be arguing about taking 400 children
Hostage to expand my market into San
Francisco I don't need to have this
conversation I don't want to be arguing
whether or not George Soros and Bill
Gates caused the government to have
covid lockdowns to destroy our lives I
do want to have good arguments about
lockdowns though uh was it an
appropriate decision uh you know in
retrospect it seems like it could have
been less um should it have been more
top- down organized uh did we make the
correct decisions with the information
that we had at the time because you have
to make decisions perspectively not
retrospectively because time only Moves
In One Direction right but because we're
wasting so much time talking about
whether or not the world economic for is
trying to get us to all E I guess
crickets for the rest of our lives we
can't even have the reasonable
conversations anymore and that's the
damage that's the issue that um that so
much of our discourse is now occupied by
otter putrid filth and garbage and trash
that there are no more good
conversations to be had you can't have
good conversations about policy we can't
take credit for any of our achievements
everything is politicized um it's just
it's it's all horrible so just centering
back on I don't think that division is
necessarily bad and and I'm sure you
agree in in principle what I'm saying
I'm harping on just the word you use no
please yeah yeah but I I mean I'm sure
I'm sure we agreed largely on that that
like division isn't necessarily a bad
thing it just depends on what the kind
of division is and then how the division
is like interacting with how both sides
are interacting with each other yeah so
I think that's exactly correct so this
is something we talk a lot about in
business you need Dynamic tension yeah I
also think the evolution gave us people
that are I'm rounding it to politics but
politically left and politically right
there is a reason if you're trying to
get a large group to cooperate flexibly
you're going to need some people that
are like hey we can't leave anybody
behind that's the left and then you have
people on the right that are like hey
but personal responsibility because of
something known as the freeloader
problem so if you evolutionarily program
a species to just make sure you take
care of everybody no matter what uh Game
Theory says that there will become a
parasite problem where a bunch of people
just do nothing and they still get the
thing um so you do want that Dynamic
tension there's no doubt about that you
talked about disconfirming evidence or
what I call disconfirming evidence uh if
you want to be successful in anything
you have to hunger for somebody to
remove your blind spots because the only
thing I can tell people is uh that some
part of your proposed solution you're
thinking is flawed you just don't know
which part and so you want somebody to
help you tease that out which most
people definitely do not do but the
thing that you brought up which I think
is is really important and boy oh boy do
I PE hope people hear me on this there
is a weird thing happening in culture
right now uh that I think is brought on
by social media that is I don't want to
waste my time arguing that and
unfortunately I hear this argument from
the smartest people and I can only
imagine that the smarter somebody gets
the more frustrating it is to interact
with people that process data at the
level of a mortal uh so I just went
through this with Eric Weinstein and
Terrence Howard that whole thing and I
went to Eric and made a very aggressive
appeal to please for the love of God go
address this uh I wanted him to do it on
my show he ends up going on Rogan fine I
I'm just very glad that it ended up
happening and the reason that I am very
glad that it ended up happening is we
are living in the age of conspiracy and
the reason we are living in the age of
conspiracy is it is excruciatingly
difficult to both live a life and
educate yourself on everything so for
instance I'm reading a book right now
called JFK and the Unspeakable and it's
awesome and it makes me believe that
almost certainly JFK was assassinated by
the CIA but I'm not researching any of
the points so I'm just going if these
things are true then that is almost
certainly the right outcome to make but
the reality is I would have to go in and
do all the research I'm not going to nor
is anybody else the reality is that you
are going to live largely by heuristics
people are going to make these shortcuts
so what I'm saying is let me finish this
point so what I'm saying is that you
have this world where humans need
heuristics and so somebody puts out a
compelling argument that they follow
they now have their shortcut in their
mind to what happened oh January 6
wasn't an Insurrection cool I know my
talking point there uh and
now you've got people going I I'm not
going to debate all of these points and
so everybody begins to fracture into a
thousand little silos and what people
end up realizing is I either have to go
and debate these one by one a lot of
these things I think are so stupid I
don't want to so I hope people use a
threshold of public awareness public
awareness with like that veracity of
belief and then the other is to
understand if you don't attack them what
you're doing is you're left with the
option to manipulate and this is what I
see the elites doing this is what I
think so many people on the right are
pushing back on is that they can tell
they're being manipulated now the people
the elites just to use the word that
people use they feel like I'm so smart
that I actually understand what's good
for everybody and since I'm not I don't
have the time nor the will to go out and
convince them and they may not even be
convincible I'm just going to move them
silently along in in the right direction
and I think that manipulation is
excruciatingly
dangerous okay um the first thing I just
wanted to say is um I don't know if
you're aware of this or not You' have a
lot of very good you or from my
perspective you a lot of very good
thought processes um the idea of what
you just said right there that your mind
you you try to structure your mind um in
that you're justifying your conclusions
and you view those conclusions as
Justified but if the legs of the table
are removed that the conclusion no
longer follows is a very very good
thought process to have that um if
somebody tells me a particular thing and
they're like hey uh did you know that a
recent study just came out and if you
drink four Pepsis in one day you're
going to die well now how do you feel
about Pepsis that your answer shouldn't
necessarily be like you can either say I
I don't trust this so I don't believe it
or you can say well okay yeah I'm going
to stop drinking Pepsi or like the best
the the best thought proc you can is
like if that's true then I would say
that yeah Pepsi's horrible right um when
you structure your thoughts like that
you give yourself you give yourself
emotional wiggle room in the future
because now you're not like a slave to
whatever idea that you've identified
yourself with in an IR removable context
you've given yourself like a
psychological out and it's just a really
good way to frame your thoughts I just I
I I hear you speak like that a lot where
you're like oh given this like for the
for the JFK assassination thing right
that like well if everything said in The
Spook is true and maybe it is maybe it
isn't I don't have time to fact
everything but if it's true then I
believe this but if I were to discover
something different I would change my
belief obviously right being able to
update your beliefs based on acquisition
new information is so important um you
said so many huge things we could spend
15 hours talking
about everything you just said there but
um uh I had a viewer email me once I got
a lot of emails a lot of my viewers give
me a lot of really good information uh
and he said he called this like the
magic box idea and he said that uh
basically the idea was when you if you
go to ride a horse you basically know
what's going on you're getting on top of
a big creature you feed him you kick
them you you you know what's going on
have you uh have you used an abacus
before maybe in grade school okay
there's no room on the abicus for the
government topar on you you see every
single thing going on you know what's
happening what's happened is is in our
life as technology has grown and
Technology represents like this
accumulation of information passed on
through generations right as technology
has grown and the devices that we use
become more and more sophisticated they
require a greater level of understanding
to even know what's happening and as you
become more abstracted and removed from
that underlying process it becomes so
much easier for conspiracies to manifest
just because you don't know what it is
that you're engaging with right um this
applies to not just cell phones but it
applies to every single thing in our
lives right where when I talk to people
about um government conspiracies or
anything like I noticed for a lot of
people they just don't know how any of
this works they have no idea how any
part of the government works they don't
know how any part of the military Works
they don't it's like that's like
if they understood this thing then
they'd have like 98% different opinions
on a particular thing they just
understood more about like the
underlying stuff um the the magic box
thing is a concept um all this to say
that you were kind of speaking about how
like we become so specialized and so
conspiracies are manifesting more
because we're kind of like in our own
little worlds like I I agree that that's
an issue um when you talk about like
wanting to debate every single thing or
attack every single thing that meets a
threshold I just want to be clear about
that okay that's a really important
qualifier but even threshold is
difficult because it's like now in my
mind there are so many things that are
exceeding that threshold in terms of
what percentage of the population
believes in it that I just don't think
are really worth debating uh when I say
not not what so when I say not worth
debating what I mean is that like I
think that there are there are some
ideas that lack any reasonable
justification the the we would have to
we can dive into like empirical
discussions on these particular things
and have a conversation about these
things is a waste of time and there's
only so much time and there's only so
much attention that you can give because
the world is a complicated place um I I
and the issue too is that like when you
have certain ideas there are people who
have a conclusion and they want it and
they will just hop from bad idea to bad
idea to bad idea to bad idea and to
spend your time going through each of
these is excruciatingly painful uh for
me the example I I don't know your
position on any on vaccines or any of
that stuff so we might if these are
major areas of disagreement we can
always talk with them or you know
whatever but I can sum up my belief or
my position on literally everything by
saying uh what leads us to human
flourishing sure it it needs to be kpi
based we have a number I can go into my
whole detail on that but just just by
way of quick note that's that gotcha
sure okay um for the like for vaccine
stuff this is probably one of the first
areas that I became like very
knowledgeable in um what I found was you
there would be a new conspiracy uh you
know it might be
um uh [ __ ] what did AD stand for
something um acquired development
basically like you could give a vaccine
it would make the virus resistant to
your uh immune system and then the virus
like a super virus um this was a big
thing for a while and then it was the
died suddenly documentary where huge
strings of stuff and then it was like
myocarditis and pericarditis and then it
was myocarditis for young men and then
and it was just like every single week
what did Dr Malone say what was on the
last uh Joe Rogan show uh you know what
did RFK say uh you know about the polio
vaccine and what is every and and what I
realized is like I'm debating like a new
I'm debating like a new topic every
single week just to say the exact same
thing and the argument the evidence for
my argument is overwhelming and the
evidence for these other arguments that
I'm having to swat down is non-existent
like why am I having so many debates on
is hydroxy chloroquin or Ivermectin
valid treatments for covid-19 there give
an answer though what do you have an
answer to why so many conspiracies won't
go away yes um yeah we'll get there
that's part of next thing um but just to
say that um in wrapping this up that
there you can only talk about so many
things like when I go live like
sometimes I'm fighting on a certain
thing and I realiz like eight hours have
passed like [ __ ] I wanted to read this
today or like I wanted to go over this
and like I've just spent so much time
like arguing about this particular thing
and obviously the the for whatever
reason right now we can only have about
one idea in our head at a time as a
country right like who knows it's
there's a recent attack in conun I think
or might have been the alasi uh beach in
Israel Palestine nobody knows about that
nobody cares about the Gaza STP anymore
nobody cares about Ukraine anymore now
it's election time right nobody cares
about yeah we have like one idea at a
time um so so basically to say that like
yeah there's only so much time to talk
about things and if we have to deal with
every single dog shed idea we don't have
time to talk about like the important
conversations um so you asked like where
do these come from what's Happening you
mentioned something about how there's
like a weird social media thing and
there are Elites that manipulate people
I think that the weird social media
thing is all of these alternative media
influencers do not do any reading or any
homework I don't expect the average
person to sit and autistically you know
read like oh what are the New England
Journal of Medicine say oh well unless I
got to read all of Robert's opinion in
the Supreme Court case I I wouldn't
expect a normal person to do that I
would expect them want to do that but my
God none of these streamers do none of
these YouTubers do nobody in alternative
media does I don't think there's a
single person out there that I saw give
their take on the chevron case on the
Trump immunity case nobody read any of
the case even read the syllabus uh for
the Supreme Court decision which is like
15 pages and these are these are small
Pages there's not like 15 like huge P
it's like Harry Potter Pages um that's
not acceptable and you end up in this
world where all of these alternative
media influencers have huge incentives
to lie to you to sell you conspiracies
they make a [ __ ] ton of money like
hyping you up they make bad predictions
Tim p is going on right now on Twitter
about how like oh yeah this is any like
no sane person thinks that this was a a
normal shooting this is definitely a
conspiracy I tweeted out I was like well
let's spend $10,000 on if you're so
confident no response why not you're so
confident you should be willing to give
me odds on that if you're that confident
but they're not there's no
accountability mechanism nobody keeps
track of like all the lies that people
say and um I think that yeah I think
that right now there are so many people
scattered across media that are just
repeating these horrible talking points
with no research with no backing to
anything they're saying and it is
destroying it is destroying the
discourse go ahead dude you you make a
ton a ton points and as we're sitting
here I am reminded why I think you're
such an important part of the
sensemaking apparatus and so the
overarching theme of why I want to speak
to you is um I think that I'm so driven
by what's the outcome that you desire so
I'm trying to piece together what you
want I'm trying not to paint what I want
on to you uh what you want is to make
sure that um people are voting for the
right candidate who you see as Joe Biden
um that you have tried these very
sensible um debates that you've done
historically but don't feel that they
were very fruitful uh and you've gotten
to a point now where you realize to um
dial up the voters on your side and to
dampen the enthusiasm of the voters on
the other side you are running a new
tactic which is this um hyper aggressive
you use the word bully so I'll use that
as shorthand I'm sure it's more
complicated than that bullying is good
you uh like you said some leaders
encourage you to move some leaders say
we should uh you know help people that
are falling behind other people bully
people it's an important social
mechanism yeah you uh you you definitely
bullied in that uh the 1 V10 uh Twitter
space that you did which I highly
encourage people to check out was um
utterly fascinating but
the that is the tactic that you're using
to get the outcome that you want that I
just laid out now part of the issue is
you and I um
diverge very much in uh our local the
local outcome that we want so um I don't
know that we would disagree on human
flourishing but that would require a lot
of definitions anyway so I'll I'll leave
that aside but the outcome that I want
right now is to make sure that we bring
order to social media cultural and
political discourse so uh when we got
the printing press we got a lot of
religious wars when uh we had
governments or written language we
suddenly had governments and Taxation
because they could be tracked and I'm
saying now that we have the internet and
social media we are living through uh
just a
complete form shift of culture where it
is we're we're finding our way to what
the new normal is going to look like and
I can see coming out of the gate one of
these really big things that we're going
to have to contend with is what do you
do as conspiracies multiply and lies can
move faster than the truth
you can make a lie a lot sexier because
you can just simplify into an easy
marketing message um but we are going to
have to deal with that and so um my
thing that I put forth is you want to
have a threshold and no one person is
going to attack everything so you pick
the ones that you think yield the
highest outcome towards where you're
headed would be my advice where you want
to move people would be my advice but
that I don't see any way around that
because uh to your earlier point about
we want Dynamic tension I don't think
you get that Dynamic tension when you
have like all these fractl conspiracy
theories where we're no longer living in
the same place and now it becomes very
easy to distract people just with a a
new shiny thing that people are going to
to run over to and so if you think of it
as cards scattered all over the floor
you have to like bring them back
together and as you sort of reorganize
them it's very messy for a while uh but
the goal is to to reput them in order
and so my very simple thesis on how you
reput these things into order is you
first have to agree where are we trying
to end so for you elect Biden uh number
two is what are the things that people
believe that are stopping me from doing
that okay what subset of those do I have
the time the knowledge whatever to solve
uh and then you put together your best
arguments and you revolve around those
the one thing I will add that the
average person probably isn't thinking
about is you need some sort of kpi that
will indicate whether you're making
progress towards that goal or not I
won't pretend to have that my head right
now but that's going to be important so
you can judge whether you're making
progress or not now what I see you doing
is going
um I now think that bullying is the best
way to move my candidate forward and in
doing so my estimation is youve just
ejected yourself from the sensemaking
apparatus period how does that feel are
you like yeah but I don't care or the
I'm not proud of my my media appearances
this year and I don't like the positive
feedback that I get from them because I
feel like I've played a dirty role in
legitimizing stuff that I think is
leading to the destruction of my country
um I think that one of the issues that
you run into um and I noticed this I
used to be very concept value kind of
like oriented so for instance when you
say this is always my biggest issue with
Sam Harris I don't know if that's you
got the human flourishing idea from but
um I always feel like it's a it's a bit
of begging the question where of course
everybody wants human flourishing but
one man's human flourishing might be
another man's suffering um and even when
you talk about like measuring it like
okay well kpi well for one guy you know
a kpi might be there needs to be zero
gay people and zero abortions in society
and this is like Optimal human
flourishing for you know one reason or
another so um and I'm sure I'm sure
you've thought about this not to not to
imply that I'm blowing your mind we like
oh my God different people can value
different things thanks Stephen I had no
idea yeah um but the
um yeah for for I I don't I don't want
to play a part in legitimizing ideas
that I don't think should be treated
with a level of seriousness that I've
treated them with I think that um I
ashamed that I've walked away from
conversations with Ben Shapiro Jordan
Peterson Candace Owens where I let them
say things in front of me that we should
I should have spent the rest of that
conversation trying to make them feel as
stupid as possible for saying something
so unfathomably outlandish that should
have been the rest of the conversation
and there would have been some people
that would have just not like my
appearance they would have seen me as
more divisive but there would have been
some people that were like oof well that
is kind of embarrassing I guess maybe or
you have planted the seats of doubt I
would have far preferred that than all
of the comments of like wow you guys
spoke together and you did marry go
around and it was so nice and Kumbaya
and I was like this guy is [ __ ]
insane this guy's crazy I don't I don't
want to I don't want to be a part of
that anymore I can't I can't do it
because I again I legitimately think
that we are we are hurdling off of a
cliff right now and I think that a lot
of has gotten there because
conservatives have been allowed to just
operate with impunity in the media space
and they have so many clever little
tricks in order to avoid any sort of
accountability um yeah it's just it's
it's un it's unreal to me the um you you
mentioned those three things before
right and these are like the three
things I guess in a very aggressive
sense that I'm focusing on now with
conservatives is one is there was an
Insurrection led by Donald Trump is
undeniable we can go through the facts
of all of this and no reasonable mind
can disagree here and I will and I've
never had a person fight me strongly on
this and disagree the best you can do at
the very end is say okay fine it was an
Insurrection but it was worthwhile the
second thing is uh you need to contend
with the fact that and you need to at
least be willing to admit that Donald
Trump has historically escaped
accountability in a way that no
president ever has ever right he escaped
impeachment in the Senate because
Republicans falsely assumed that oh you
can't impeach a guy who's not in office
anymore uh he escaped um he uh the
Supreme Court was willing to a part of
the 14th Amendment for
and say well we don't actually agree
with this uh with Section 3 of the 14 of
amendment so we're just going to say
that that doesn't apply anymore right
they they literally changed an amendment
to make sure that he could still run on
and be listed on the ballot in Colorado
um now the Supreme Court has come out
with an unbelievable immunity ruling for
the president of the United States
saying that in certain areas the
president is
unimpeachable as a general noun he you
can't be held criminally liable you
can't even you can't even take to
account his motivations when Cons
considering criminal liability and you
can't even use these actions uh in the
furtherance of other crimes so if it's
like it's like step after step after
step and he's pardoned like every single
friend that he's had why why would
Donald Trump pardon Paul manifa right I
just want people to be able to verbalize
okay fine sure Donald Trump has escaped
a historic amount of accountability
probably more than any president ever
has in the history of all of the United
States two and then the third one is
people need to contend with the fact
that my God every single possible Red
Flight you could ever have with a person
that is here there is not a single
Cabinet member he's not even running
with the same vice president nobody
that's worked for Trump likes him
everybody's telling you this guy's a
huge problem everybody's telling you
this guy's a threat to democracy
everybody's telling you that this is not
a good man how can we ignore every
single red flag like what more do you
need to see like what else could he
possibly show you or do to show you this
a bad person um yeah this is I I think
that when I go into these conversations
I'm like Jesus What's Happening Here I I
don't want to be like sitting across
like yeah that's totally valid point man
like yeah I actually see I totally get
where you're coming from I don't get
where you're coming from I think that is
insane I think that if you're a
commentator I could understand for a
normal person right that like you listen
and you don't know cuz my parents are
like that and they now believe in every
single conservative conspiracy theory
but for the media commentators something
else is going on whether they're being
paid by Foreign sources which I think
happens unfortunately more than people
know uh or they're just like find their
way to grift and make money because this
is like the easiest way to energize and
ignite people is through conspiracy
theory and other nonsense okay so what
do you think it is that Trump represents
so forget Trump as a guy there are a lot
of people that are on fire for him why
what what is that you ever stubbed your
toe before yes when
you dude I bought these white blankets
from my bed and I don't know what it is
but it perfectly hides the corner of my
bed and I've kicked my [ __ ] ankle on
this thing so many times okay I just
wanted to say that um no there was a
point to
this when you get upset um it can be
losing a game of League of Legends it
can be you know your dog just you know
whatever on the floor again it can you
stub your toe when you get upset that
anger generates a whole lot of energy um
and especially if you're a man uh
sometimes comes out in violent ways you
want to hit the wall right that's what
Donald Trump is there's a lot of people
with a lot of kind of general anxiety or
angst or insecurity or feelings that
something is not working right in
society something's not okay and we need
to go back to when it was okay and
that's what Donald Trump
represents and do you have specific on
that what is it what's the stubbing of
the toe is it the economy is it uh
something else entirely why are people
mad that's a really tough question to
answer um I think that there are so many
different things at play like even even
trying to answer that question is in and
of itself difficult so like here's like
a here's a here's um here's a thing when
I was growing up um I'm
35 in high school you
kind of had cell phones but not really
the first cell phone came out the first
iPhone came out I think in 2007 you kind
of had like flip phones and stuff
beforehand if you didn't have a cell
phone it wasn't like the biggest deal in
the world if you were poor and you
didn't have a cell phone in 2004 it's
probably okay because it's whatever in
2024 if you're poor you still have a
cell phone but if you have like a
Seventh Generation old cell phone it
probably feels pretty shitty so you're
in a weird world I think where sometimes
you've upgraded your standard of living
but even though it's increased it
somehow feels worse because now instead
of like not having access to a thing at
all now you have access to the thing but
you have access to like a shitty thing
and it's like well I understand where
the feeling comes from but it doesn't
actually map on well to reality because
you have a phone it's better than
nothing right and it's like well this is
[ __ ] I want a better one or I want
something different um I think that
there's a lot of problems and
everybody's going to get mad when I say
this but I mean you can you can go and
hit up the data there's a lot of
problems where people will try to say
that like um you know like food is is so
expensive and unaffordable and like this
is like the average person can afford
this and blah blah blah and it's like
why why do uh why haven't door Dash and
Uber Eats like G out of business how are
people still affording this like as a
person that grew up um decently middle
class and then became super Working Poor
and then went to being like a streamer
to become incredibly wealthy I cannot
imagine as a Working Poor person [ __ ]
Uber eing or door dashing holy [ __ ] I
get like a hot chocolate and a and a
bagel in the morning and it cost me like
$25 if I was working there I would never
be ordering this stuff
um or people will look at like home
ownership stuff and I think that there's
a human tendency to um to nostalg ISE
there's a verb they're looking for you
you hold the past with higher regard
than it actually was and now now I've
hit the age where uh where people say
things and I'm like excuse me I saw a
girl on Tik Tok uh several months ago
and she was like uh rent is unaffordable
uh nobody knows how hard it is for us
kids anymore 20 years ago you could work
a minimum wage job and have your own
two-bed room apartment and I'm like
excuse me 20 18 years ago I worked in
McDonald's I got 515 an hour you better
believe I had roommates okay it was a
girlfriend but like there's no way you
get a point but people think if you ask
somebody like do you think that people
owned more homes on average like in the
19 you know 1900s 1920s 1930 40s 50
people like yeah for sure no they didn't
home ownership rats are about as they
always have been from generation to
generation they're more or less on track
to be the same but it doesn't feel that
way um as for why um there there's like
there's 20 other examples that I could
go with but I would say that the biggest
thing that has made a huge impact on our
lives that nobody wants to talk about
because it's not sexy and you can't
really ideologically load it is the
Internet it's changed in an unbelievably
short amount of time right when we were
when I was a kid even when I was a kid
the internet didn't really exist it was
like AOL keyword it was like kind of
there maybe you had a family computer
maybe not if you didn't it's not like
you were missing it nobody was like oh
no I don't have a computer in the
internet if you had it was cool whatever
um and now it is an irremovable part I
don't even know how I live
without a [ __ ] cell like how do you
how do you go out and meet friends and
not be able to call them when you're
traveling you just like you were like
shot into space and you hope that you
met up at the right places and it's like
well it's 4:30 like you know Ron's
probably at you know you John's house
let's go and check it out let's go bike
down there you didn't know you had no
idea maybe you call us parents like when
was last yeah but the the world has
changed so much and we don't pay any
attention to that because it's hard for
either side to weaponize it I think yeah
there's no doubt about that income
inequality is uh definitely a huge part
of the problem I think uh you've got
income inequality you have a meaning
crisis which I think is really a big
problem right now you have a breakdown
between the Sexes and so that's a big
one too you start putting all of that
together and I don't I just don't know
the data well enough to know how much I
should also be including the uh drug
epidemics that we're having uh but
certainly in terms of
people are also knocking themselves out
of whack from a hormonal standpoint so
there's all this stuff going on inside
the body there's the breakdown of the
standard fabric of time where if you
wanted to get laid you were there was no
access to a lot of porn you had to take
the risk uh you were constantly around
other people there weren't the
distractions of the cell phones uh you
couldn't be bullied endlessly no matter
where you were that is something that
for a kid absolutely terrifies me
Jonathan Heights work I think is really
really interesting uh Abigail shrier and
the whole thing around therapy having
gone too far and beginning to separate
kids from their parents in terms of um
who are they taking advice from all of
that stuff these all feel like cultural
societal trends that are pushing us in a
direction and we can get so much
information so rapidly that we then lead
to what I was talking about earlier
where it's what I call the age of
conspiracy but it's really just
everybody has these different narratives
in business I think about this a lot
because my job is to go all right there
are all these dots there's what's
performing in our business there's
realities of YouTube there's what we're
trying to do in video games these are
all dots then I have to string a line
around all of that that makes a coherent
shape where I can say these are the dots
and this is what they mean this is the
narrative and then I give them that n
that narrative that narrative has to be
clear enough simple enough that they can
transmit it to each other that they can
transmit it to the outside world but the
problem is I need to intoxicate them
with certainty about it I have to make
them believe in it like that is the
gospel truth and if you follow that
we're going to go somewhere great but
then I peel off and I go in a room and
go the only thing I know is that
something in this narrative is broken
now with the internet you have a
gazillion sets of narratives all of them
are broken and we cannot figure out a
method by which we go through and Orient
people to how the world actually works
and this is the the breakdown I I was
thinking the other day um during a
podcast where it might have been better
when we could control the narrative by
better I mean human flourishing right
that that's just always what I'm
thinking about it is entirely possible
that when you're being manipulated by a
small group of people towards a
measurable and positive outcome that
you're actually getting closer to human
flourishing Than This Moment now where
we don't yet know how to deal with it uh
and there's just narratives everywhere
they're all colliding nobody knows what
to make sense of anything uh and because
of all those breakdowns we have this
rise in populism because people don't
feel like they're going to do better
than their parents and so they just are
in this malaise they don't know how to
move forward somebody comes along and
says I know how you feel and I'm going
to make you feel better and throughout
all of human history that's all that
it's taken
um but for even somebody like me this
feels like this incredibly deranged
moment where the dynamic tension at some
point snapped and now we're in this
moment where these two sides are just
flying off into Oblivion and that's the
thing that worries me now I don't know
what your stance is but where do you
think this goes because my initial
reaction to your change in tone was
I'll agree with you that the right's
been saying crazy [ __ ] forever um but to
me the left has also been saying crazy
[ __ ] forever and now you the person that
for the last year two years whatever was
the imminently reasonable guy has
suddenly become the face of ratcheting
up the tensions now because I have an
algorithm running in my brain that says
it is inevitable that we will end up in
either a war with an outside power or at
War with ourselves just the the math of
how Empires fall is just it's undeniable
so it is an inevitability from my
standpoint
and what just happened with the
assassination attempt you became the
face of we just ratcheted that
up so my goal is to make people realize
that it has been ratcheted up the
assassination attempt didn't change much
if it felt like it it's because you
haven't been paying attention not you
personally or maybe you personally but
just in general that like the the things
have been getting crazier and crazier
and crazi
but because we have a way to naig the
world and not see the imps immediately
of these C things we believe we're
allowed to to be crazy and not realize
it for longer periods of time there was
a um did you watch that Chernobyl Min
Series yeah I think um [ __ ] what was the
name of the main character some weird
Eastern European name yeah I know
exactly what you're talking about but
yeah he the he mentions at the end when
he's breaking down how the reactor ended
up failing he says there's a quote that
he has where it's like every single time
you lie you pay a debt to the truth and
eventually that debt has to be incurred
and I think the issue right now is
because of how abstracted all of our
beliefs are that debt we're running on a
lot of credit right that if two people
were to step outside and one guy were to
say I think you can eat a rock and be
totally fine and another guy were to say
I don't think so that is a belief that
will exist for a a brief moment in
society until a person eats a rock and
then it's done you're done that belief
is gone you don't need to worry about it
anymore because you can immediately test
it and you can immediately get feedback
and you can immediately see it's not
good there's a couple of issues in
society today one go has to do with how
abstracted everything has gotten that
magic box thing I talked about to where
if somebody tells you so um there's a
very common belief that phones are
always listening to you and recording
everything this has been tested by so
many people there's no evidence for this
even though it's like a i my guess would
be more than half of people in stud I
believe this like very strongly high
levels of conviction I don't think
there's ever been unless something
recent has come out there's never
actually been any proof that shows that
um that that your phones are listening
to you even though a lot of people say
oh I started seeing ad one I brought up
this thing and I blah blah blah right if
you have beliefs that are one abstracted
away from the thing there's a thing that
happens to where not only can you not
really see the negative outcomes of said
belief immediately you're divorcing the
consequence from the belief more and
more and more um this in and of itself
is not good for human thinking um if
youve ever like trained dogs or if
you've trained people it's really the
same thing feedback has to be like
immediate it needs to be like
appropriate and there has to be like
some corrective measure that can be
taken right like you like if somebody
does something wrong you can't wait a
week to tell them CU you're just like
you're making bad habits and they're not
going to like be as receptive and
they're not going to tie it to the thing
as much right you have to have like a
really good system of reinforcement um
it's why obesity in my opinion is such a
huge issue when you eat yummy food
there's an immediate good feeling and
the negative consequences really really
really far away in time it's hard for
humans to deal with that climate change
I think is a similar thing the benefit
is immediate I get to plute now and get
something really awesome and maybe my
kids will have lung cancer 10 years
earlier I don't know right but it's
really far removed from from the current
moment in time but even worse than that
um again going back to this internet
thing not only do I have ways to put off
consequences because I can filter my
world so selectively I might be able to
avoid consequences entirely filtering is
not good when you're doing it to an
aggressive amount people would be
surprised at the types of friends they
could make the people that they know the
people that they could date if they were
forced to spend time with a whole bunch
of people given the opportunity to self-
select and given the opportunity to
infinitely filter people will cut out so
much of their life that was important
and valuable without realizing it and
the internet has given us the ability to
do that in in a really really really
negative way like an example I always
give is that like if one guy you know
grew up in the 70s and he really wanted
to [ __ ] a toaster he's not going to be
able to find anybody on the Block to
give him advice on that he's probably
not going to grow up [ __ ] toasters CU
he's going to try it once and
electrocute himself where he's just not
going to do it but today you could
probably find a forum full of toaster
[ __ ] that will give you like the best
you know 27 step guide to have the best
sexual experience imaginable okay with
the best Toaster built for it it's this
type of filtering is not good um to go
back to the thesis of like these two
points so I can believe a crazy thing
and there is no immediate corrective
thing for it right uh maybe I do think
that a vaccine is like 50% lethal I mean
how am I going to test that it's not
like I don't get any and my friends
don't get any and then two now I can go
online and I can see any documentary or
any social media figure whatever and I
can have reinforcement for that
particular belief these are two very
very very bad poisonous things for human
Minds um because of an underlying factor
which is people are so horrendously
mistaken and they do not understand that
like logic and syllogisms like
propositional logical philosopy this is
a very queer unhuman thing we have the
capability for rational thought but
that's a skill that has to be developed
in practice you're not born with that
Evolution doesn't give you that
Evolution doesn't create somebody with
the purpose of making them discern truth
as well as possible it creates something
that can survive long enough enough to
pass on your jeans and take care of your
kin that's it that's it there's no
reason for you to assume that your brain
is uniquely equipped to be this logic
machine it's not we're not computers um
so people have this mistaken assumption
that well if I just put myself in any
information environment whatever you
know you know I'm always going to be
able to figure things out eventually or
like I'm sure that truth is being
delivered to me in some way SI shape or
form no we're pleasure seeking at the
end of the day all humans are pleasure
seeking machines it's up to you to
create the systems in your mind to make
truthful things feel good or if they
don't feel good have the discipline to
understand like
ah [ __ ] this sucks whatever I I have to
do this thing anyway um this is one of
the reasons why uh this is a whole other
thing we're not we don't have to get
into this but like one of the things
that drives me the craziest about all
these red pill losers is every single
time if somebody gives you an
uncomfortable truth if somebody's going
to give you here's a easy way to tell if
you're bullshitting yourself if somebody
gives you an uncomfortable truth and
every single time you walk away with
that uncomfortable truth feeling like
amazingly empowered and hyped and ready
to go you're not getting an
uncomfortable truth they're giving you a
[ __ ] hype speech disguised with
[ __ ] okay if somebody's giving you
this uncomfortable truth and they're
saying something you know like listen at
the end of the day you're the only one
that can take care of yourself it's all
about you nobody's going to take care
and you're like yeah [ __ ] yeah that's
awesome right that's not an
uncomfortable truth you're getting a pep
speech right if if somebody's giving you
an uncomfortable truth you should walk
away in my opinion feeling pretty shitty
about it right if somebody comes up to
you and they're like listen you know
what you're 32 years old you haven't
talked to your parents in 5 years grow
the [ __ ] up and call them call them
because your parents are go on forever
call them right and you should be like
ah [ __ ] [ __ ] yeah maybe that should be
your feeling afterwards um but people
dress up stuff so much
um yeah there's a whole other thing of
like that like people have taken on the
aesthetic of all these things instead of
like the thing itself being a Centrist
or whatever is one of them I I think I
think I think cautiously I don't know
all your beliefs but you seem to be a
person who is decently well put together
I would consider myself in a lot of ways
kind of like a Centrist typ person I'll
never identify that way because there
are so many things already that I say
that if I was listening to it I would
say that's a red flag like there are
things that I say where it's like that
guy says that he's not partisan he does
his own research he moves independently
that's all [ __ ] don't believe that
guy everybody that says that is full of
[ __ ] [ __ ] and I say so many of these
things already and then I have to
justify every single one afterwards
because people wear these as an
aesthetic yeah go for it yeah go well so
explain to me that's interesting and it
may be that you just have a beef with
people wearing it as an aesthetic but um
I've heard you say it's just team team
sports everywhere and I agree I think
everybody's team sports and recently I I
never thought of myself as sort of
anything I never I don't even like
politics per se I'm obsessed with
culture because I think that uh culture
will control the quality of your life so
for instance the first culture that
you're going to be impacted by is is
your parents so you wake up one day oh
I'm here and my parents are either doing
things that are going to help me
flourish and develop my brain well and
good nutrition and all of that and
they're going to fill me full of ideas
that will be useful as I move forward or
oh God I was born into a terrible
culture and my parents ignore me or
they're doing drugs or they're abusing
me God forbid and it's just like those
things have such lifelong
consequences now I can't control who
people's parents are nor should I be
able to but I can control what their
friends think is cool and that's where
I'm trying to as a media
uh purveyor of video games essentially
that's where I'm trying to intercept
people and once you understand oh these
ideas they all really matter then it's
like okay we need to focus on what are
the ideas that are actually effective we
have to figure that out so I don't want
to be put in a camp I don't want to be
said that I'm red blue um and so I
started thinking okay is is the center a
destination is it actually a knowable
place that you can go to or is it simply
that you're milk toast and you're
refusing to go red or blue and the
reason I think it's a destination is I
would for anybody that's going to use
Centrist in a way that I will resonate
with because even as I say the word it
sounds so weak and just disgusting but
the reason that I would love to see
somebody come up with a cool phrase for
this is here is how life actually works
we we are in a world with rules physical
rules that can't be violated and so once
you understand oh wait a second I can
Master the rules of the game and I can
do things that other people can't do
amazing then I'm going to come in and
I'm going to start figuring out what I
need to get good at in order to achieve
the goals that I want to have and so I
feel like my life is the expression of
that I'm a guy with a roughly average uh
IQ I don't want to debate that with
people so people think I'm a little
smarter than average fine if you think
I'm a little less than average fine
great it doesn't matter my the results
of my life followed a very specific
mappable explainable process that I walk
down so I bring that to being a Centrist
and saying all I'm talking about being
the center is there are a bunch of ideas
the ideas will yield different outcomes
sometimes the team on the left is going
to be thinking about an idea that's more
useful sometimes it will be the team on
the right and sometimes it's the dynamic
tension you were talking about before
and we as we see them fight we see what
the real answer probably is and thank
God we have this structure here in
America where the the system sort of is
designed to gridlock so that we don't
don't make changes too rapidly but if
people go oh I'm going to make all of my
decisions not based on a team narrative
because I know the narrative is going to
be broken in some way though it is a
lovely shortcut where I have to do less
work but instead I'm going to say if we
do this policy I expect this outcome now
if I do that policy and I get that
outcome I'm going to keep doing that
policy if I do that policy and I don't
get that outcome something in my
predictive machine is broken to me
that's the center you're just it's like
I'm going to State My outcome in fact I
want to go back to that there was
something you said earlier I'm not going
to be able to tie it back now but um
people end
up just by saying what outcome they want
they reveal themselves and if you just
ask them where are you trying to go then
you can begin to understand oh [ __ ]
remember you're just trying to to tease
out three things their biology are going
to get in the interactions that's
largely for things like this just
intellect uh and then the other is their
beliefs and their values and so running
something as a thought experiment how
they would answer it cool now I
understand something about your values
now I know how I can leverage you and
your thinking if I'm trying to make
sense of something um that to me is
where this gets interesting which is why
uh and sorry to keep coming back to this
but you matter to me as a part of the
sensemaking apparatus but your whole
thing now is I'm going to bully people
because I think it's a tactic that's
been underu people that I think have
unacceptable thought patterns right now
they shouldn't yeah to clear to your
earlier Point there's a finite amount of
time
and there there are two things that that
may come if I think of you as a brand
for a second and when you first came out
and said uh what you said about Corey
and I have no sympathy for anybody that
gets killed at one of these rallies
you're voting for a Traer I was like
anybody that says that they don't have
sympathy for somebody I I Now understand
that they've they're they've gone tribal
and so now I'm just going to Discount
everything um but you had built up
enough credibility with me that I went
and watched your stream and so I'm
watching your stream and two things
happened one you were pointing out
things I was like I don't know about
those things so if I'm going to have an
opinion I need to go um either decide
that you're going to be my heuristic and
I'm just going to believe what you're
saying or I need to go research them um
but you were also so
entertaining that I could see the seeds
of a new WWE version of you arising that
may actually be more effective and I
don't know yet I can't
see far enough into the future to know
however I do know that there are always
second and third order consequences so
the question becomes what are going to
be the second and third order
consequences to another important piece
of again this is my bias I'm trying to
bring people together what you're doing
now will not bring people together it
will shove them farther apart maybe and
it's that's interesting I want to hear
how that's maybe um in fact why is that
maybe what else how else how could that
bring us together sure have you ever
heard of um have you ever heard of the
concept of moral hazard you brought up
like I've heard the phrase but I don't
know what I think it has to do with like
um like the free loader problem I think
moral hazard is when you go to consume a
particular good or service but there's
no cost associated with the consumption
so there's a you just you would consume
it infinitely because why not if I were
to say like hey you have access to to
free massages you might get like 20
massages a day there's a I think that's
considered the concept of moral hazard
and it leads to things like the free uh
writer problem um if I'm incorrect about
that edit that out I'm just kid
um the free um the free riter
problem is solved generally
speaking no not generally speaking
always it's solved by forcing somebody
to incur a cost for their behavior and I
think that we've tricked ourselves
socially into thinking that some
behaviors can be done with no cost and
one of the things that I would argue is
um I will appeal lightly to Evolution
and I'll say that it's probably pretty
important that people uh their
self-image is made up a lot of how
people around them view them now
obviously I'm sure you probably have to
spend a lot of time fighting that I have
to spend a lot of time fighting that
when you're in Media or when you're
trying to like move forward in like
business or what whatever there's going
to be some people that gravitate more
towards that um find a nicer word for
sociopathic but these people that aren't
as influenced by the thoughts and views
of people around them and that's
probably a good thing okay I like that I
appreciate myself uh I don't know how
Society functions if everybody's like me
right if everybody's like I don't
actually give a [ __ ] what any of these
people think [ __ ] you and it's like okay
well my tribe is dying okay because
sometimes it's nice to have a bunch of
people like we have to do this thing
right every we just going to think I'm
an [ __ ] if I don't do this particular
thing you know it wouldn't work if
everybody was like had my type of mind
right there's a certain type of thing
that's good what and that type of thing
is there's like a social pressure that
moves people in in a certain direction
by setting the the maximum boundaries of
permissible behavior and in evolution uh
evolutionary biology uh I I think we
refer to this concept as youever heard
of Tit for Tat yeah in a Tit for Tat
system tat is not evil it's essential
you have to make sure that there are
corrective mechanisms for tit behavior
that if somebody does a wrong there has
to be a tat to correct the behavior and
to discourage the behavior and this is
something that has taken me a great deal
of time to figure out and I'm still
working on it and we talked a little bit
personally before this about an issue
that I have like being mean to people is
um sometimes you get into this habit
when you're dealing with people
personally where you don't want to set
healthy boundaries between you and the
other person because you kind of feel
bad telling another person what they can
do and you end up being kind of a
pushover and you're actually making two
people worse off there you're making
yourself worse off which is immediately
noticeable because now you feel like
[ __ ] cuz you got people people that walk
all of you but you're also making the
other person worse off because assuming
this is a person that loves you cares
for you wants to be your friend they
would appreciate like if you imagine
like any person that has troubl setting
boundaries if you would ask them what if
your friend told you hey I'm not really
comfortable when you do XYZ that person
almost always say oh yeah of course I
would I would never do that again right
so you're you're making yourself worse
off and you're making the other person
worse off so you're in a world where
when you set boundaries for behavior for
other people and you all have better
guidelines for how to act it actually
improves everybody's uh Behavior it
makes everybody happier even though that
might seem a little bit counterintuitive
initially so I think in a tit fortat
system if you allow some people to run
around without the tat and they can just
tit tit tit tit tit all day that
introducing back some of that tat and
saying hey if you're involved in this
behavior and you end up like something
bad happens to you like bro you're
you're it's it's a it's a [ __ ] around
find out situation this is ridiculous
this is stupid if something happens I
mean like it's sad like I mean like
nobody you know nothing bad we don't
want bad things to happen to people but
like damn like what what the [ __ ] did
you expect you know you're jumping into
a pool that says warning sharks and then
you get eaten by a shark I mean like I
don't want anybody to get eaten by
sharks but what did you expect to happen
you know there has to be that like
cultural corrective mechanism and right
now in my opinion in the United States
it does not exist for conservatives
there's none of it it doesn't exist at
all Trump is deranged and he says so
many deranged things and for you to even
bring that up oh you've got a trump
derangement syndrome or oh like oh you
just want to call us fascists and Nazis
meanwhile if you've been living in the
United States conservatives called
Democrats commies for like 20 years
they've we've always done this name
calling why we ending like it's Unique
now and you know the Liberals just spent
you know two weeks hand ringing over
Biden senility and you know meanwhile
Donald Trump you know just picked his
vice presidential candidate is another
guy who said Donald Trump was like
Hitler like even his vice presidential
candidate says it like but it's you
don't see any of that corrective
mechanism on the conservative side
you've never seen you've never seen a
Fox News broadcast like did Trump go too
far with this no you see just the
opposite you see leaked messages from
Tucker Carlson where he's saying behind
the scenes Sydney pal I what did you say
I [ __ ] hate her or something he's
like he's un he hates this lady but when
he goes on to Fox News it's like they're
on brand they're unified they always
have the same messaging it's like what's
happening here so you asked me um how
could you possibly create a less
divisive environment and I think it's
because it's like disciplining a child
or training a dog or setting a boundary
with a friend that sometimes enforcing
types of acceptable behavior does
actually make for a more cohesive and
better environment because just letting
people run a mck without any sort of
corrective mechanism creates the most
divisive environment which I think is
where we're at now all right so I'll
make a pitch that you're looking at that
wrong and we'll see how far I get so uh
the tip forat strategy is really
fascinating for people that don't know
the background it's basically computer
simulation that they ran and they tried
to come up with all these really complex
systems where the two AIS are basically
um trying to work together and you I
forget it's like I'll give you 50 cents
if you give me 50 cents but the other
person can just take all the money if
they want and so there's this moment of
trust and this is where the idea of Tit
for Tat comes in so uh they ran all
these really complicated strategies like
every fifth time that you give somebody
you then take something away and the
thing that ended up winning was tip for
Tat until they found uh so the way that
tip for tat would go would be I'll I
come in assuming that you're going to be
good and if you bite me then I bite you
back yeah and where I think you're
running that version of the strategy so
it's like okay cool I just did my years
worth of going on all these nice
podcasts with all these wonderful people
walked away hating it thinking that it
didn't go anywhere what a waste of time
I was civil I accidentally moved the
Overton window into a smaller Zone uh I
think it's it's all crazy and I'm not
going to do that anymore and so that is
them as the Brits would say taking the
piss so there there is our tit or tat I
forget which is the good and which is
the bad but um now that I'm past that
gloves are off you're you've said things
I'm never going to back down apologize
the Next Generation can come behind me
and they can show sympathy it is not
going to be me like gloves are off [ __ ]
these guys now in the actual Tit for Tat
thing that they ran what they found was
the one that actually beat Tit for Tat
was where you did Tit for Tat but you
assumed again that they were going to be
good so they would default again to
rather than tit for tatting each other
into Oblivion if you chill and you turn
around and you now give the you you
treat this well and treat equal whatever
word they would use then I'll go back to
treating you well and so there's a
mechanism to pull out of the death
spiral and that's the part that I would
love to see because is trying to bring
everybody back to the middle like we are
we are just dialed to 11 after the um
the assassination attempt on Trump dude
I'm sure you have because you go through
a lot of this stuff but the rhetoric is
people are saying this is literal War I
want blood like it's it's really really
ramped up and because the way that I
view Society is that at any moment you
can hit black ice and you're driving on
a normal road everything seems fine and
then all of a sudden you don't have
control of the car and it happens so
fast now you may just sort of spin for a
minute and you go lightly into a snow
bank and all is fine or you go careening
off a cliff smash into the kids walking
along the street and you do a lot of dam
Dage on the way down it's hard to know
but what I'm trying to do is avoid us
hitting that black ice this is why I'm
I'm being I'm becoming sort of a a RFK
Stan now I admittedly don't know him
well enough so I'm sure you could pull
out a lot of stuff and I'd be like yeah
this stuff is crazy and now you're just
leaving me hopeless but the reason that
I like him is he gives me something to
move towards he gives me a positive
message of unity um so
the how does that land in terms of the
way you've approached this like it's a
hard line I'm not yeah maybe you've
taken me too seriously maybe I expressed
myself poorly I mean like obviously if I
felt like conservative discourse became
more reasonable I would return to the
more reasonable thing um I just don't it
just hasn't happened um I I never heard
what you just described so it's cool
that I learned something um although I
think I intuitively or maybe I did hear
it that like if you're in like a tit
forat system and the other side keeps
misbehaving that you start you you start
aggressively [ __ ] them over but then
when they go back to um like a Tit for
Tat then you return as well and then you
continue to do this right yeah that yeah
that makes sense yeah that you would
allow for some bad behavior but if they
go back you would go back because if you
don't then you death spiral which is bad
um the issue is that I feel like we've
done this for years where it's just
liberals apologizing over and over and
over again and I don't think
conservatives have taken responsibility
for a single horrible thing that they've
done over the past eight years in this
country I'm not exaggerating when I say
that um that's an issue and if that's
not going to change because I if you
must agree that um having uh for the Tit
for Tat that going back is essential you
you made that argument so I and I agree
with you there but you must also agree
that uh tit tit tit tit tit organism
won't survive in any Social Circle
because something is going to come along
that will um you know tat tat tat tat
tat and destroy it right if this
creature never responds then you're just
going to be taken advantage of you're
going to be Freel loaded on and
everything is going to be gone and even
after
like you know what happened um I was in
a I was in a city and I didn't have
anything to do for that day and I was um
hanging out and I was I was just reading
and the assassination attempt you know
played out and my first instinct was um
because my first instinct whenever
something like that this happens is
usually I'll take to Twitter and usually
I'll say regardless of what's going on
violence is like never acceptable we
don't want to get to a point to where
like people are killing each other this
is not good there's no reason nobody's
starving to death in the United States
now nobody's like dire that dire trated
this doesn't need to be violent and I
open Twitter and I start looking and I
start thinking and I'm seeing all this
crazy talk about how the Liberals were
the one you know saying they called him
a Nazi they called him Hitler what do
you expect and then I start thinking and
I'm like have conservatives ever said
hey we need to dial it down after
January 6th hey we need to dial it down
after
um you know after like these you know
this leaked conversation from Trump like
hey we need to dial it down after you
know like the Dominion and the Putin and
the voting stuff or we need to dial it
down after the Cod never not a single
[ __ ] time not even one time has there
been a large there have been some
Republicans that have done it and they
are immediately excised from the party
and they're never trumpers and they're
gone forever their political careers are
over so I think I tweeted out that I was
conflicted I wasn't sure and then
somebody a bunch of people start pushing
me what do you mean you're conflicted
blah blah blah and then I'm still like
looking at the media landscape and I'm
looking at like all the temp pools and
all these other people that kind of
exist in my sphere the constantines or
whatever and I
realized not a single one of these
[ __ ] [ __ ] is going to say that
Donald Trump's wrer contributed to any
of this none of them will admit that not
a single person so why in the [ __ ] am I
going to get on my knees and say oh my
God what happened to this guy was so
tragic like we got to do better guys
when these [ __ ] are the ones
that are driving up the temperature to
an unbearable limit and
not only are they the ones pushing the
temperature up that is the singular
reason why they prefer Donald Trump is
because of his rhetoric sure as [ __ ]
isn't policy anybody that says that is
lying I would I'll debate or argue with
any of those people because all you have
to ask them are what are three policies
from Donald Trump you like they're going
to say like uh the wall tax cuts and
that's it the wall isn't even a policy
right so if they're not going to accept
any responsibility for any of it right
like in my mind this is another thing
where I would say no reasonable mind can
disagree if I were to ask you who is the
singular person responsible for turning
up uh the temperature on political
discourse over the past eight years the
answer is Donald Trump it's not even
close nobody else even comes close to
Donald Trump on that one like no and I
don't believe any reasonable M can
disagree and I would fight to the death
on that but like conservatives will say
well what about the one speech where
what about the one speech where Biden uh
if if you it was like it was like a blue
red blue and they zoom in on the one
thing they like he's got the red
background and I like really and like
well he said he said Mega Republicans
and I like yeah right after that he says
it's not all Republicans is just the
people that are denying the election why
is it that you can take one line from
Biden and use that to impune his entire
speech and his entire character
meanwhile for Donald Trump he'll give an
entire speech on January 6th about
fighting like Helen taking your country
back but you you you uh um you use one
line to completely and totally validate
him saying oh I know you'll be marching
peacefully how can you save him with one
line and Destroy Biden with one line and
this happened to me on Pier's Morgan and
they had an opportunity to make me look
really bad
because I said and some people might
have thought it like that anyway but
every time Pi was like what your and I
was like these guys won't take credit
for anything what do you like and I
think I said something like um if I can
remember it was like yeah you know
liberals have been talking about how BLM
and the riots were horrible and we to
disavow and Biden had to come out and
say he disavows the riots and you know
ask these guys what they think about
January 6 and the first thing that Ruben
was like well well that's a different
that's different right there wasn't a
single event that I could give that
either of those people would take crit
would take any accountability or
responsibility for that environment is
not a good one I don't think there's
virtue in operating as a pushover I
think that you have to show strength
sometimes and I don't mean strength like
Donald Trump means that we just bomb and
kill random people or you bully people
but I mean strength in that you have
values that you believe in and when
other people aren't willing to cooperate
in that system you can't keep bending
over backwards to accommodate them when
they won't accommodate you that's just a
parasite that's a leech it's not a it's
not a Cooperative system and it leads to
destruction I think when when you
mention like sometimes being mean to
people you ever met somebody who has
like a 23 year old that's not going to
school and not
working and they live at home it's
really really really hard but there are
times where and this is another issue
that I have especially with centrists
okay I don't know if you're included in
this or not but some people say that
like being nice is in and of itself a
virtue just being nice to people and
sometimes depending on the person and I
know you know this because I know
everybody's had these people in their
life especially you for everything
you've accomplished is sometimes you see
people and you're like my God you need
one good friend to tell you how much of
a [ __ ] up you are because nobody has
made this clear to you every single
person you've got people that they
navigate through life doing a bunch of
assurance seeking Behavior they manage
to always find people to feel sorry for
them and it's like bro at some point
like somebody needs to kick you out you
got to be homeless BR you have to figure
your [ __ ] out you need somebody needs to
give you like that tough love correction
where they're like listen I love you I
respect you I appreciate you you're
[ __ ] up right now and you need to
change and there's no nice way to say it
and I can help you if you want to change
but I can't help you if you're going to
be like how you are anymore this is
unworkable and it's leading both of us
to ruin and that's kind of how I view
conservatives of the United States right
now understanding that both my parents
are hardcore conservatives and believe
in every single [ __ ] conservative
conspiracy theory as tragic and as sad
as it is that exists out there today
yeah
so what do you think is going to be the
um consequence of the rhetoric hitting
the level that it is now is Civil War a
possibility or do you think that's
absurd
in my mind it's always been I have no
historical background for this
so actually even in the United States
it's not true I've said this for a long
time I don't even know this is true but
my my feeling I guess my intuition is
that as long as people aren't like
starving or they're not like homeless
like on the street like in mass or
whatever that you're not going to see
Civil War but I guess we had like we had
an actual Civil War and it's not because
people were starving to death so is it
possible
um I I I feel like I feel like it could
be I feel like the issue is that last
time Donald Trump didn't really know
what he was getting into and he didn't
know how to navigate the system
appropriately and he kind of thought
just because he doesn't seem to
understand much really about anything
but especially not about government um I
don't think he understood how difficult
it was in the United States being
president and trying to make systems
work for you but I think coming in the
second time I think he understands that
a lot better and I think that he's going
to choose the people around him to be a
lot more faithful and adherent to the
things that he wants and I think that's
probably one of the scariest and most
potentially damaging things especially
given the difference that the Supreme
Court has granted presidents now to
commit criminal acts uh that's a really
scary thing in my mind so paint me that
picture in detail what happens if Trump
wins so I think I feel like we could see
like a historic um deconstruction of a
lot of the federal government like a lot
of agencies either being um made
Toothless um like uh like conservatives
seem to have this principle of just like
deregulation for deregulation sake when
it's like well some level of Regulation
is probably okay um so I think you could
see like federal agencies like
completely Stripped Away and the the sad
thing is is there's like there's
conservatives listening to this right
now like yeah that's a good thing I
think we should have them Stripped Away
and it's like okay yeah I guess like
[ __ ] clean drinking water or you know
good food to eat um or you know safe and
effective medications um I think that
that's a big issue I think that I think
that Trump will continue to foster a lot
of um mistrust in a lot of our
institutions and I think that when
remember when I laid out kind of my
whole like principally Building Society
third party institutions become
essential because you just don't have
the time to learn and understand every
single thing in society uh you know when
I turn the key to turn my car on I have
to trust that there are Engineers that
built this car to a certain standard and
there are safety regulations that going
to make it so it's not going to [ __ ]
explode and my tires are going to fall
off while I'm driving down the street um
and I think that Donald Trump and his
followers his ilk do a lot of damage and
cause a lot of mistrust for a lot of
Institutions um I think there's a
serious concern that the United States
is receding if we haven't already done
irreparable harm we're receding from
being leaders of the world which I think
is really important I just think that a
lot of the benefits that we have as
being leaders of the world are very
intangible like who the [ __ ] cares that
we can ship anything from any part of
the world without a concern like nobody
thinks about that but it's very tangible
when there are bad things why are we
sending money to Ukraine that's bad I
don't like to send money to Ukraine but
like what does it mean if something from
from China is cheaper than it would be
otherwise if we didn't have the world's
largest navy you know
um I think that
um this is these are just like I think
outwardly broad policy and and like
demeanor things this doesn't get into
the scary world where Donald Trump could
be like arresting political opponents
which he's tried to do in the past um
where he's lying to States in order to
effect certain outcomes which he has
like documented and tried to do in the
past um there's like a really scary
world where certain people get like
thrown in jail for no reason where
different freedoms are impeded like he
said multiple times the media is the
enemy of the people he's talked about
suspending the Constitution to search
for voter fraud he said in the past that
Americans that burn the flag should have
their citizenship revoked um yeah these
are all very very very scary things in
my opinion in terms of like what's
possible um one thing that I'll say like
here's the thing that I'll say in 2016
everybody was unhinged and upset when
Trump became president and everybody
thought that like okay it was kind of
wacky or kind of overreacting and
Trump's presidency was worse than what
any reasonable person would have said it
could have been in 2016 I don't think
anybody saw like how crazy everything
would be in terms of how he operated so
what is the next you know take at that
going to look like now that he
understands the system better I don't
know so uh with the Supreme Court
decision coming out really crystallizing
the powers uh to not be pursued
criminally that the president has do you
have have literal fears that he will
become king
like um the problem be our last election
will it be our last election
um everything is so multivariant and
it's hard to know I I think it really I
think to know the answer to that
question I would have to know Trump and
from what I can tell Trump just seems to
be insanely narcissistic so if Trump
fancies himself a king that he just
wants to like have his last four years
is like a [ __ ] you like you thought you
could keep me out of office well I won
again so [ __ ] you guys then he has his
run and then like like it's possible
he's press and he's like a lame duck
he's like I just want to show him I
could do it [ __ ] these guys and then he
walks off or whatever that that that's
within the realm of possibility one of
the scary things about Trump is that
like all possibilities are open you know
um and then there's another world where
he sees like some sort of Legacy about
like the political establishment that
he's created and then the things that he
wants to leave behind potentially and
that could look a lot like some kind of
kingship um I don't think that people
realized it but I think there's a strong
argument to be made that Mike Pence
might have been the only person that
saved us
from something catastrophic happening on
January 6th Mike Pence took a very
strong stance at multiple stages against
Donald Trump's attempt to the government
that's why he's not vice president this
time and that's why the guy that he
chose the JD Vance guy is on record
saying he would have supported Donald
Trump in January 6th when he would have
like flipped the election basically for
Donald Trump so like let's say that
instead of a pence it would have been
somebody that would have gone along with
his scheme to to declare himself the
winner I don't know what the country
would have looked like then I don't know
what it'll look like next time I just I
I I don't know but I do know that like
everything is on the table which is
really scary to
me
um how would the aftermath of the
attempted assassination been different
for you if it had been a Biden rally
someone tried to shoot Biden and killed
somebody in the crowd would you have
been um would there be sympathy for that
side or is it just the whole political
machinery
you know what actually I bet there would
have been a similarish thought process
where I'd have said you know what I have
sympathy I would have more sympathy but
I think I might say you know what like
this is why there is no virtue and
constantly you know cow Towing to the
other side that like if you're going to
sit there and let them ratchet up the
temperature more and more and more and
more and more and more and turn the
crank the thermostat up higher and
higher and higher and now people are
getting assessed what the [ __ ] did you
think was going to happen like are we
going to get another speed why in the my
standards for myself and citizens is
different than the president so I'm
going to criticize Biden here but he
probably did the right thing I I don't
know though I'm 50-50 on I'm truly split
down the middle I don't like right now I
don't like that Biden went on and
apologized for in a private speech to
donors he said that we need to put Trump
in the bullseye for like our campaigning
stuff the fact that he apologize for
that show me a single [ __ ]
conservative that criticized Donald
Trump when he said they're coming after
you for your second amendment rights and
I don't know if there's anything we can
do about it well maybe there's something
the Second Amendment people can do about
it right show me a single [ __ ]
conservative that criticizes him for
that but there's not because what do
they say they've they've they've created
so many clever mental escapes well we
take Donald Trump seriously not
literally [ __ ] what the [ __ ] he's a
grown ass man what do you mean you take
him seriously but not literally he's a
[ __ ] president of the United States
what he's speaking word literal words
right um and I don't believe what you
don't think there's something to that
like when I hear Trump talk
I think he's so
outrageous that I'm going to take him
with a grain of salt I almost take him
as a WWE wrestler if I'm honest which is
weird and there's a whole conversation
to be had about is it [ __ ] normal
useful advantageous to have a president
that you have to categorize as a WWE
wrestler uh or not but that that is
I I think people would run themselves
ragged and completely miss the point of
trump if they tried to engage with the
things that he's saying as being literal
close so Donald Trump doesn't speak
literally I I say this a lot when people
talk about like oh uh people will say
this they'll say humans aren't always
rational and that's true but people
think that the opposite of rational is
random and that's not true irrationality
can be highly predictable so if somebody
says people aren't always rational
that's true but people are always
predictable assuming you enough
information at least in the aggregate
people are always predictable as long as
they're have psychosis or something
right just because somebody's not making
a rational decision doesn't mean you
can't understand the decision they're
going to make right do you want to save
your child or do you want to save 10
other kids [ __ ] probably saving my kid
it's maybe it's not rational but like
it's predictable obviously parents got
to save their childn right um for Donald
Trump when you you might not have to
take him literally and you should take
him seriously but the things that he
says matters there's an underlying truth
element to everything that he says it's
like a person that tells jokes if I tell
a joke jokes are only funny because
they're hinting at some underlying
aspect that is true right like if I tell
a joke about like um you know coming
home and I'm disappointed because my
husband you know has a job so now I lost
my dishwasher or something like it
doesn't doesn't really make any sense
like like I don't I don't even know like
what that joke means but like those
types of like jokes against like women
or whatever might make more sense
because like oh like you might have a
certain stereotype about a woman or blah
blah blah it's like oh I get it and then
you laugh you don't laugh depending on
your social disposition or whatever but
when you tell jokes you're you're
alluding to some underlying truth of the
matter I don't like it when people say
and they do this and I think it's
horrendously designed people like oh
it's just a joke nothing is just a joke
things are funny for reasons it's not
random unless you're literally dealing
with absurdist humor which still has a
reason for being funny so yeah I do
agree that you don't take Trump
literally but but when Trump is saying
things like this what Trump is saying
and the underlying message of what he's
saying is um I think he annunciates it
pretty clearly in the in the Ellipsis
speech on January 6th is that people are
coming for your country the whole system
is rigged against you nobody can be
trusted except for me and everybody is
going to rig cheat lie steal and destroy
things unless you see me as your sole
path through salvation I was arguing
with the big guy on this call with I
don't know if it's an Elon Musk AI or
some guy that sounds or whatever but at
the end he brought in some dude to
[ __ ] argue with me and um I walked
him through this thing because I I truly
believe this that most conservatives
would be fascist if you just didn't use
the word but you explained it in other
terms and I walked him through this
thing I was like okay I'm just curious
all right let's say that the next
election comes around and uh let's say
that they don't win but Donald Trump
thinks it's rigged okay would you trust
like judges that ruled on the case like
last time would you trust them to make
the right decision it's like well no I
think that they're like very politically
bought in and they're worried about like
the country falling into chaos like okay
would you trust like Congress to make
like corrective measure or whatever he's
like no I don't really trust the
government I don't think Congress would
be able to do it I wouldn't trust them I
was like okay what about like the doj
and the FBI and like their
investigations like with with bar and
you know on the FBI and Comey and
everything it's like no definitely don't
trust them it's like okay but you trust
Donald Trump that's an emperor that's a
king that You' just anointed you don't
trust the Judiciary you don't trust the
legislative and you don't even really
trust the executive branch you only
trust one man that's it and that's a
problem it's anti-American and
worse than anti-American it's advocating
for a style of governance that's never
led to human flourishing or played out
in a positive way and any part of
society and any part of human history
for an extended period of time it's
interesting so I have maybe a slightly
different read on that so the way I I
think it is really important to
understand what Trump represents so I
largely don't think of trump as an
individual person I think of every
political leader that's very popular
especially in a populist moment as um
the masses feel something that they
don't know how to articulate and the
second somebody goes I know exactly why
you feel bad it's this and I have the
exact solution it's this and I think the
thing that everybody has to get very
comfortable with I I talk about this to
entrepreneurs a lot the reason it feels
like the world is stacked against you is
because it actually is stacked against
you the reason it feels like the
government does not have your best
interests at heart is that just the
dysfunction that comes with that large
sort of amorphous thing with all these
competing interests it can't possibly
even if theoretically it wants good
things for you just operationally it's
going to be next to impossible so you
get people uh especially in a moment
like now for reasons that we talked
about earlier um they feel
disenfranchised they feel unheard they
feel like someone is holding them down
they don't know what it is and you get
Trump who comes in adds words to it uh
he does it in this WWE style where he's
bombastic he's hanging on the top rope
and you know just like he gets you
excited and and I will say destiny that
the most fun I've had watching your
content was your 1 V10 where you were
just saying the most horrendous [ __ ] to
people but you were doing it so fast
that it was impressive and hilarious and
yes with some part of me feeling
terrible that I found it so funny yes
but that there is humans love that sort
of entertainment value so he he does all
of this so I look at that and I go oh he
is perfectly matching something that was
already happening now he in turn begins
leading it and he amplifies it to be
sure and PS I think a very similar thing
is happening with Candace Owens Candace
I would very much like to sit down with
you because these are people that
represent something that is happening
underneath the surface and that they're
giving voice to and so given that that
is really what's going on what we have
to figure out is if we're going to
create a path forward we have to
understand that that's a real thing
that's being felt and now how do we get
to a point where we can diffuse that by
making them seen feel heard and walk
them out of this so I don't think that
Trump is creating that noise I think he
is the person that simply pulls the
subconscious emotion into the conscious
mind and thus speaks it as
words okay okay um finally got a formal
diagnosis for ADHD last year I started
viance for the first time in my life
this year I've been able to read like
whole books and study ways that I never
have before which has been phenomenal a
huge improve in my life um one thing
that I've always kind of wondered is
I've always have you ever heard of like
is it called like the great man Theory
or something yeah and I'm always like I
think that especially because I'm kind
of I'm I'm a I'm a hardcore uh Hardline
determinist in terms of like physics and
everything um both yeah and and it's not
really logical this doesn't logically
follow but I maybe from this kind of
thought I'm like you know the world
probably is as the world is and it's
probably like veering on a direction and
I don't know if any individual person
like changes it too
much maybe it doesn't apply universally
across time and space um but I will say
that for the first time in my life this
year I'm like I've super enjoyed reading
about history I used to hate history you
can find old CPS [ __ ] history okay I
hate this I rather do science whatever
math whatever whatever other thing I've
super enjoyed reading history now when I
study um when I study the history of
Israel I don't know what Israel looks
like without like a Theodore herar I
don't know what Israel looks like
without a benan or without a mosh Dean
or without a Rabin or without AUD Barak
I don't know what the Palestinians look
like without an Arafat um with abuan now
I don't know I don't know what um I
don't know if there are these singular
people I'm saying I don't know but I'm
I'm really making a strong argument is I
feel like
there are moments in time where there's
energy for a particular thing and it
would be wrong to view a person at the
head of that as the cause for that
energy but man the direction of that
energy I think that there are people
that at moments of time are
crucial I don't know if we would have
civil rights today or if they'd be at
the same level if MLK didn't exist as
the person that he existed as um when I
look at the energy and the fervor around
Donald Trump it's not bad that he's
entertaining like you said you were
entertained watching me I hope I'm I
think I'm a pretty entertaining person
that's why I grew I think initially is
because I'm entertaining but I try to be
entertaining with like with substance
like I'll be entertaining and I'll fight
people and I'll scream at people but
like if you want to talk about any
particular things I'm screaming about or
fighting about or you come and watch my
channel later we'll dig very very very
deeply into it 100% um it's not just
like words for Words sake it's not
entertainment for entertainment sake I
think that's an issue the leftist had
actually for a long time that there was
one guy John Stewart who tried to be
funny and nobody else cared because they
thought they were so correct about their
opinions they just didn't put any effort
into it and then you end up in this
world where conserv have honed their
entertainment skills they've honed their
messaging so much you have all these
hilarious talk radio guys all these
hilarious like news media dudes like who
is the Alex Jones to the left like these
people don't even exist you know but the
right has them in in in Spades and um
yeah so I think that being entertaining
is good I don't disagree with that um I
do think that the leaders at a
particular moment in time are really
important Donald Trump has the ability
to do amazing things with the energy
that he's gathered but but instead he is
a narcissistic demon that is bent on
only furthering himself and I think one
of the things that I hate the most about
my life now especially when I look at my
parents who are aging my mom has
Alzheimer's disas my mom and dad were
both uh 20 years in the Air Force um my
mom is a Cuban immigrant and Cubans
[ __ ] love the United States okay they
were both military they love the United
States I grew up hearing so many amazing
great things about my country and as I
grew up especially in my early 20s you
know I was a you know I started to
become like pretty Progressive and I
argue with them like oh you don't
understand Mom like we're we're all
[ __ ] racist and bl my mom like that's
not true honey like they accepted you
know me and we came here and as long as
you're willing to work you know
everybody you know and we would fight
that way and I and something so horrible
has happened um that like we've done
this to where now as I'm reading full
Supreme Court cases as I'm reading
Federalist Papers as I'm reading like
you know these priate decisions
everything I'm like oh my God like the
way that the United States was built and
the things that we've done and the
things that we we continue to do today
are so youque uniquely awesome and
American like only in this country could
like these things have happened and as a
United Country when America puts its
mind to a thing we can move I don't even
want to say move mountains we can send
people to the moon or Mars right we do
more than move mountains
and Donald Trump just doesn't seem to
want to do any of that he wants to
withdraw from the world he wants us to
be isolation it's what what do you say a
10% tariff on everything um I just it
doesn't seem like he's collecting the
energy like one thing that I say that's
so tragic is because everything is so
politicized we can't even take credit
for like the awesome [ __ ] things that
we do um to bring up an example from
each side regardless how people at home
feel about it I guess like I would argue
that like the MRNA vaccines were a good
example of public investment in terms of
government research globalization in
terms of different companies working
together Global Academia different
researchers from all over the world
capitalism because we had private
investment going towards a good end and
uh multinational companies because we're
working with different companies
different countries all of them came
together to create something amazing and
unique and awesome and it was the
culmination of a bunch of stuff that
only could have been spearheaded by the
United States or in the United States
like we're finally building rockets and
sending people to the ISS on us-made
Rockets again and we like lead with
electric vehicles right a lot of this is
because of Elon Musk and his entrepr
like that's a South African dude who he
didn't go to Great Britain he didn't go
to France he didn't go to Germany uh he
sure as [ __ ] didn't go to Russ he sure
[ __ ] didn't go to China came to the
United States to do this and he did it
here and that's awesome and now if
you're on the left you have to Hate
Everything Elon does if you're on the
right you have to Hate Everything
related to Pharmaceuticals um you know
my mom is you know talking about how
she'll never trust the amirani vaccine
and experimental technology meanwhile
she's in a drug trial for Alzheimer's
disease like you know conservatives will
say things like I don't trust the
vaccines they're experimental but Joe
Rogan said monoclonal antibodies so we
all want to go buy those for $3,000 a
pop and it's like what's happening like
nobody can even take credit for any any
there's not a good thing that the US can
do anymore that we can even take credit
for and then as an extension of that now
we can't we can't move in any direction
in what what is it in Matthew where A
house divided against itself cannot
stand like you yeah we have no Direction
like externally anymore the world looks
at us and we're like a a schizophrenic
guy in the corner of the room screaming
at himself like hearing voices with no
idea what direction he wants to go and
that's tragic to me I think that's very
sad that is super tragic uh what I heard
in there is values
uh becomes a big part of the issue so
hearing what your mom is talking about
what I find really interesting about
America is that America used to have a
sense of shared values that allowed us
to have a shared narrative because we
had a shared narrative based on shared
values we could Point ourselves in a
direction and and be um quite specific
about that I do however think that that
narrative was often a um public a PR
message and behind the scenes very
different things were happening um that
are very distressing and this is sort of
built into my thing about why I have
grown to distrust the the quote unquote
deep state which I actually am beyond
comfortable with using that phrase
because it it does feel right to me in
terms of um you have some of it is just
dysfunction it's very hard to get a
large group of people pointed in the
same direction but some of it is
realizing oh if I can get a smaller
group within this that is uh that is
effective Ive and we can then fight
against different policies so again I
haven't done the background research to
know if the book that I'm reading is is
accurate but it paints such an
internally consistent uh logic that it
really make sense of things today so the
book I mentioned earlier it's JFK and
the unthinkable unspeakable excuse me um
and it talks about how Kennedy had this
plan for peace and he wanted to see
peace with Cuba he wanted to peace in
Vietnam he wanted to see peace with
Russia obviously has a huge win in terms
of backing down to escalating tensions
in the Cuban Missile Crisis that sort of
triggers the people that wanted us there
were people in his government pushing
him for a preemptive Nuclear Assault
which I don't think a lot of people are
aware of uh and he felt like he was
living in sort of this Divine moment
where he knew that uh death was close
for him that he had to be willing to
face that and that he realized I very
quickly that while his government
technically works for him it's very easy
for them to pull in opposite directions
and so even if the CIA wasn't involved
in assassinating him uh it's become very
clear with historical perspective to see
that there were people in his government
that were very much working against him
that Drew us deeper into Vietnam when he
was trying to get us out um that were
pushing him to do a preemptive nuclear
attack when he was trying to deescalate
tensions that he found ways to get back
channel to uh the Russians so that he
could directly d escalate because he
didn't trust people putting that message
forward now once I began to realize oh
my God this isn't like or maybe this is
and is exactly like a business where a
business itself has this sort of deep
state where people are working contrary
to the CEO and it just it really does
start to make sense of a lot of things
that just humans have all these
different desires so when you don't have
shared values and you don't have a
shared narrative uh now you're really in
trouble and because humans are looking
for those shortcuts social media gives
them a gazillion shortcuts um and then
you need a way to aggregate those
shortcuts this is like cable right they
talk about um things are bundled and
then they're debundled and it social
media first gave us this explosion
everything was debundled and so now
there were just ideas and you could
listen to somebody like Alex Jones or
you could uh I take all my advice from
Martha Stewart whatever you could just
take your ideas from wherever and now
what I see is happening happening is
that we're rebundling on
politics and so now all these diverse
thinkers be become these team thinkers
and so it's like oh I'm not pulling from
a thousand different influencers I just
go I only listen to influencers on the
left and they're all saying the same
thing or I only listen to influencers on
the right and they're all saying the
same thing but but it is this really
predictable human um Behavior patterns
of tell me what to think yeah you've
also had this issue there that that um
in a way there's like been this vertical
and horizontal encroachment of politics
in that um do do you know sneo yes do
you know who Charlie is moist critical I
know moist critical from researching you
okay he's like yeah he's like an
internet like gamer kind of commentary
YouTuber guy sneo had said something
interesting that I think is a huge
insight into the minds of a lot of
people that consume that type of content
and it had to do with uh Charlie was
critiquing either I think it was sneako
or something I don't remember what and
sneer was like look at you like do you
think your fans want to be like you like
nobody wants to be like you nobody wants
to grow up to like model their life
after you and you know his audience is
seeing like yeah that's right right and
I'm looking at I'm thinking like why the
[ __ ] would you watch Charlie to mod your
life off of Charlie like wouldn't you
just watch him for game stuff but no
like every single thing that you watch
every single part of it has to be
reinforcing like the same thing and all
of it becomes part of like this like
going to the gym is like right-wing now
why what the [ __ ] how did that happen or
like if you drive like a hybrid or like
a Prius or like a leftwing like every
single if you work at a warehouse in
like Arkansas like you need to have an
opinion on Leah Thomas the political
groups have grown to Encompass the
entire country right I think that to
some extent we're tribal and going back
to what I said before that's probably
important probably some level of
tribalism built in should be important
um but I think tribalism works best the
closest the your tribe is to you right I
would expect a person to be fiercely
Allegiant and always in the court of
their family members um there's an old
Arab saying me against my brother my
brother and I against my cousin my
cousin and I Against the World right I
would expect a family to be together I'd
expect neighborhoods to be together and
I would expect cities to be together
roughly and that's about as far as it
would go but now we've got like these
whole political divides where a liberal
a left-leaning person in New York City
is supposed to have the same opinions as
a left leaning person in Atlanta Georgia
um and then you want to run into these
areas where and thank god um the Justice
stems especially ioc have like matured
and grown so much in terms of of their
political maneuvering but you wound up
in this world where people are [ __ ]
on um on John oaf and Rafael waro
they're attacking these left leing
politicians in Georgia because they're
not like Progressive enough and it's
like bro why are you trying to get this
guy in the most purple [ __ ] District
ever to act like a Democrat from like a
plus 42 District in New York what do you
this not the same game but because
everybody's part of the same political
group now it you have to have like
everybody has to have the same opinions
about like all these politians because
the groups have gotten so huge and it's
influencing every single area of your
life like oh what do you like to watch
hold on I got to think about who's in
whatever I'm about to say because I
don't about to get canceled because this
has like you know Sam Hyde was in this
YouTube video or this was a documentary
and they made the white people black or
the black people white or like yeah and
it's it's very very bad it's not good um
that politics is is incorporating so
much uh into it's being Incorporated to
everything one thing that I will say um
and I guess it would be be a challenge
or a thing for you to think about or for
other people to think about or for me to
think about or you got pushed back if
things like a deep State concern you
then I think that the worry you should
have is I think you should ask what are
the motivating factors of the leader
that I'm
choosing and what do I think he's going
to do uh to make like the structure work
for the country to work for
me um it would be a fact we would we do
this fact was a debate but like would
argue pretty inarguably I would I would
say Obviously as I go to argue it I say
like Joe Biden when you look at his
history his career the legislation that
he's Champion have been a part of and
the way that he you know moves in the
world the way that he has gotten
bipartisan legislation passed the way he
constantly says like I'm a president for
all of America not just one party that
it's it's so funny that um when that
assassination attempt happened for the
first time in my life conservatives were
accusing Biden of having like fiery
divis like fiery rhetoric or whatever
it's like this is the most milk toast
dude ever you you're insane you know um
if a deep State exists and maybe we
we'll say that it does right I'm sure
that it would exist at the I don't think
that Biden would like that that there's
like some deep State trying to [ __ ] over
Americans now we could argue that maybe
he's too scile to combat it or maybe he
because they work in similar ways that
he does that it benefits him so he'd
allow them to operate right these are
all if I I'll say maybe reasonable Minds
could disagree here that there might be
something that's like okay fine sure
Stephen um maybe Biden wouldn't be for a
deep state that [ __ ] us over but maybe
the Deep State just his needs so much
that he would allow them to exist and
gain more power right you can make those
arguments sure but then if I flip the
switch and I go over and I look at
Donald Trump and you look at the way
that Donald Trump has operated well okay
let's compare like the Deep State
Tendencies Joe Biden's son was well
conservatives have long said that the
Democrats weaponize like the FBI and the
justice department okay Joe Biden's son
has been convicted for crimes related to
firearms that I don't know I keep people
myud can you show me an example I don't
know if anybody's ever been convicted of
these crimes as like primary offenses
ever that somebody sees a video of you
doing a drug and you have a gun so they
nail you and lying on the 4473 which is
a firearm form and ATF Form that you
fill every time you buyun that's I don't
think that's ever happened usually if
you get caught on [ __ ] like that it's
because you get arrested doing something
you shouldn't be and then they find you
with a gun and a drug and then that
might like they might stack that charge
on for something right not only did
Biden get um investigated for it um
Hunter Biden by Joe Biden's FBI he got
convicted for it and Joe Biden said he
wouldn't pardon him do we really think
that Donald Trump would do the same like
Donald Trump pardoned every single
person that was part of his
administration that got convicted of a
federal crime people like Paul Mana for
for what reason right so and then when
you look at like the statements these
people make right Joe Biden is saying
things like uh you know I would never
direct the doj to do anything I don't
give them direction there's never been
evidence ever that he's given them any
direction for anything if he had why the
[ __ ] did mer Garland appoint a special
counsel that ended up releasing a pretty
damning report of Biden the the her
report that spoke to his senility and
everything and him forgetting things or
whatever would that have happened under
Donald Trump we don't have to guess we
can look what did happen under Donald
Trump right if you read the Muller
report which everybody hates it's got a
lot of good information in it you know
he wanted Jeff sessions not to recuse
himself uh he wanted Jeff sessions to
kill that investigation when Jeff
sessions recused himself from that
investigation Donald Trump lit him up on
social media he said this guy's a joke
this guy's horrible and then he told
Jeff sessions um I think he what did he
uh I think he told him to resign and
Jeff sessions wouldn't and it was just
like a huge cluster [ __ ] he wanted Comey
fired multiple people have said that he
was on record saying like if this
investigation happens this is the end of
my presidency I'm completely [ __ ] he
said um that that's just like one of
like 50 million examples that all to say
that if a deep state was something that
we would be worried about I don't think
that Biden would be the person who would
I'd be more worried about the Deep State
taking advantage of I think it would be
Donald Trump remember of all the crimes
and all the malfeasant and all the
misdoings that Donald Trump has been
accused of Donald Trump's go-to defense
for these was to go before The Supreme
Court and say I need to be immune from
Criminal prosecution it wasn't this is
all [ __ ] these are lies I didn't
make that phone call I didn't make those
fake electorate sites I didn't tell
Pence to flip the election I didn't do
any of that it was I was acting as
president I could do whatever the [ __ ] I
want and the Supreme Court has not told
me as much I think these are things to
consider when we worry about a deep
State personally but yeah it's
interesting I think the the the reason
that the Deep State matters is
to it it is to the side of everything
that you just said so uh those are all
perfectly valid points for somebody
who's trying to think through whether I
want Biden in the office or whether I
want Trump in the office but I think the
Deep state is going to be relatively
agnostic to um who is in power what they
are going to care about is whatever
motivates them so uh if you look back at
JFK you've got the um indust the
military-industrial complex that we were
warned about they're chomping at the bit
they've got a cold war go Cold War going
that is extremely good for business
you've got what's about to pop off in
Vietnam that's extremely good for
business uh it's also an ideological
battle which I think people are man
people are not purely economic animals
and so I think people will do weird [ __ ]
for ideology and so you've got people
that are like much like the way they
react to Trump um reaching out to um
North Korea and they're saying that
that's just beyond the pale you
shouldn't speak to them in any way shape
or form well JFK who certainly as a
patina of having been somebody who was
about moving us into a new era of Peace
uh he was thwarted at every turn because
he's trying to like guys we we need to
deescalate nuclear weapons are evil we
need to step back from the brink we have
to understand that killing 30 million
people whether they're Russian or not is
grotesque and we should avoid it at all
costs and so when he sees whoa like I
have people in my own government that
are pushing me to strike preemptively
that's that's crazy and then he would
see them undermine hold um uh
Communications that he would try to send
that they would misinterpret things that
uh they would at one point with Castro
they authorized a an assassination
attempt on his life which he found out
about and they I mean it was just like
all this crazy stuff where he's like you
guys are undermining us at every turn
same thing with trying to get out of
Vietnam he was trying to back us out of
Vietnam and this some of this stuff's
going to be contested I just say out
loud I understand where the points of
contention are I going to say I see the
JFK stuff plays a lot but I don't I
don't have any of the background there
are moments of this stuff where so again
this um this comes down to in the
thought experiment if you have uh
moments where people in the government
are that are under the president's
purview are ignoring what the president
wants now you've got a problem so you
can elect this leader and this is
exactly why I'm opposed to Biden which
is I think Worth US colliding over if
there is a collision but so you've got
somebody to give you my base assumptions
who believes that they're they already
is a deep State as I Define it people
working inside of the government that
are like ah the president will be here
one day gone the next I have an agenda
I'm going to see this through it may or
may not align with the president uh and
then you elect somebody who does not
have the cognitive wherewithal to be
present like even if you're going to say
um no when he's there and cognizant he's
fine and he's got great policies and all
that but you are saying we're trusting
the government to the people that are
running it when he's not cognizant and I
now have both a rational trigger and an
emotional trigger going off like just
emotionally that redlines me that people
would they they can see that he has
cognitive decline this is like you'll
say um no person will disagree with me
about this no rational person will
disagree that he's got cognitive decline
and so I'm like okay so we all know that
he will be worse in four years than he
is today I don't think anybody could
plausibly deny that uh and so I'm
already terrified with where he's at in
terms of his ability to do something
like the Cuban Missile Crisis where you
have seven minutes to make a decision it
could come after 10 p.m. or wherever
he's declining and so now he's going to
have told his cabinet or his cabinet
will just have decided in those moments
this is what we do we wake him up we
present him with the answer we have more
or less trained him to say yes or you
know whatever way we go
and that's how was going to run and so
now I'm not even really electing the
real people so anyway that's my bias I
can lay out what my beliefs and value
systems are that lead me to that but I
am aware that there are underlying
things that drive that um but because of
that to tie it all back together to why
I brought this up in the first place why
I think it's somewhat tangential uh to
the president I think the thing that is
really breaking down for us is as a
nation we know longer have a shared
Narrative of what it means to be
American so even at the narrative level
we're now broken into teams
and because narrative's right on the
back of values we are also broken at the
level of values so we don't have
anything that unites Us in this shared
way and at a moment where we don't have
a narrative that unites us nor do we
have values that unite us and we're
having to deal with unelected people
doing uh I'll even say they're all
well-intentioned they all believe
they're doing the right thing even at
that level of the thought experiment it
still strikes me as wildly problematic
in terms of it will not lead us to
anywhere
positive um two quick things one quick
point and then one question I agree with
the first thing um I would even say it's
stronger when people say people are not
economic animals people can be driven by
lots of stuff that's not even remotely
Tethered to economics I know for a fact
that my parents um people liberals made
this mistake for a long time thinking
that people care about meat and potatoes
issues you can motivate voters a lot
with certain issues my parents would
never ever vote for a pro-choice
candidate in the past ever they would
never vot it doesn't matter what
economic issu is on the table if they're
Pro Choice they're Pro baby murder they
would never vote for him so people do
care a lot about um certain social
issues those are very important to some
people um this is like a question um I
have a rule that I never do this but I
don't think you're a crazy conspiracy
theorist so I usually don't like asking
questions about because people wild but
I'm curious in the book that you've read
so far how far into this book are you uh
2third okay I'm just curious so if JFK
felt like he was getting so much push
back why didn't he ever fire any of
these people or replace them with
anybody else um I don't know so I can
give you theory of mind he did fire some
people so but only the people where he
had a direct this I told this person to
do this and they fundamentally did
something the exact opposite but he has
that famous quote where he said I want
to break the CIA up into a th000 pieces
and Scatter it to the wind um so some of
it may have just been timing some of it
is I look at everything through the lens
of an entrepreneur some of it is you'll
create
instability by just firing people
randomly and so there are times where
Lisa um my business partner and wife uh
will have conversations where we will
both agree that an employe is not
meeting their obligations to the company
and I will say I need you to give me
some time because it will actually
create more instability if I get rid of
them even though they're underperforming
and so that again this is theory of mind
I am purely guessing but the the level
of complexity to this kind of thing I
think is really really extreme okay um I
would speak a bit when we talk about
like does Biden show cognitive decline
so this is a an interesting question
when you look at Biden you compare how
he speaks between now and 4 years ago
there is obviously a noticeably decline
um I know that he had a stutter growing
up and that he spent a great deal of
time overcoming that but even
irrespective of the stutter it seems
like his ability to speak on the fly or
do debates or whatever it seems as
though it has uh it's gotten markedly
worse um there are a couple things that
I think are worth thinking about though
the first thing is when we compare Biden
and his cognitive performance we're
comparing it with passed Biden instead
of with the person that he's running
against as tragic and sad and stupid as
it is we have two people that are in
their [ __ ] 80s that are running for
president um I said this after watching
the last debate I think that the debate
performance I don't think that the
biggest issue there was Biden's Cog uh
cognition I think the biggest issue was
he just had a really stupid debate
strategy which was to try to come in and
autistically rattle off 15 different
facts for every single point that he was
bringing up when Trump just has like
basically slogans and I don't know if
I've ever this sounds like an
exaggeration or hyperbole I always
challenge conservatives in my audience
link me something if I'm wrong I don't
know if I've ever heard Donald Trump
speak with what sounds like intelligence
or insight into anything having to do
with government in my entire life not a
single time I don't I don't even know if
he knows I think he would name the three
branches of government I think so but I
don't know if he could tell me like
like I don't think Donald Trump
understands a lot about government and
Foreign Affairs um so when Biden comes
up and he gives a performance that shows
a market decline from where he was
before um and I'm like okay wow that's
pretty scary but nobody stops and thinks
like okay well has Donald Trump ever
like rattled off like a series of
numbers or shown like any kind of
intricate understanding of the economy
ever no and this kind of goes back to
what where the whole conversation
started where like where's the bar and
it's like if Donald Trump's cognitive
abilities to be president I feel are
like here and Biden's like were here and
now they've markedly declined to he he's
still miles ahead of this guy
and the way that I would justify that is
um when you do when you do you know
anything about like medicine or medical
trials or whatever yeah when you do a
medical trial um you do a bunch of
research to see how a particular
medication Works you've got the theory
the only thing that matters and the
medical trial is the outcome that's it
medical trials are testing for side
effects and for the alleviation of
symptoms or the Cure of like some
disease that's it um there was a huge I
don't know if I call it a scandal
there's a big deal that they had
approved in Alzheimer's drug a couple
years ago because it cleaned I think
some of the amalo plaques out of the
brain but they didn't actually have data
that it improved Alzheimer's disease
they just had the data that it clears
some those plaqu that was a really big
deal I think a couple people resigned
over that because they were like this
isn't how we normally approve medicine
they just look at outcomes if Biden is
cognitively declined to a significant
point it leaves me at a loss for words
to explain people had this question of
like what happens when you know the
phone call happens at 4 a.m. like who do
you want answering the phone and it's
like I I understand we dive into so many
like different factual realities that
everything I'm going to say people just
disagree with me factually but I would
say that like I think that Biden handled
the Ukraine Russia situation I think
with Stellar leadership I think he
brought a lot of different people
together I think he set in the beginning
understandable red lines he was able to
Channel A lot of funding like do like
work in a collaborative effort to help
Ukraine fight but restrain them enough
that we're hopefully not escalating
World War II although now I think I
might even disagree with the restraints
but I think that Biden navigated that
incredibly complex situation where
you've got a massive world power
invading a European country for the
first time in like 30 years that's a
really really really big deal and Biden
I think handled it I think he did a
solid job I also think Biden has done a
really good job with um Israel Palestine
for as [ __ ] difficult as that uh
nightmare of a [ __ ] show is and trying
to show that we're a strong alied to
Israel while also restricting their
actions and saying like you need to give
the people in Rafa more time to flee
we're going to come out we're going to
build this humanitarian peer um you know
I I think that he's had like these two
very challenging foreign policy
environments I think that the response
in Yemen I thought was exemplary you're
going to bomb ships in the [ __ ] uh
you know in the sea [ __ ] no we're going
to come and we're going to obliterate
your missile launchers and we did it I
thought it was a really good decision he
pulled us out of the Saudi Leed
Coalition in Yen I thought these were
all good decisions when I look at the
foreign policy conflict that the United
States has right now I see Ukraine
Russia I see Israel Palestine I think
that these are worthy causes and worthy
areas to be involved in when I look at
the decisions that Donald Trump made um
again it it dives into a lot of like
factual analysis for as much as people
want to say like oh like these things
wouldn't have happened under Donald
Trump all of the conditions were being
created so for instance Donald Trump
recognized the Moval of the embassy to
Jerusalem he didn't Sol or settle on
anything he didn't make any deals he
just recognized that movement that
direct that was one of the major
inciting inspiring events for the 2018
2019 border riots in Gaza people rioted
over there they're like wait what the
[ __ ] we're getting left behind Trump
claims that they solved peace in the
Middle East because of the Abraham
Accords because they brought some
countries in with peace with Israel
these countries are already on the road
to normalizing peace with Israel they
also excluded the Palestinians this is
all like fomenting this like fear this
is the reason why Palestinians have have
been violent is because they see
themselves being abandoned by all of
their Arab allies and the Abram was
another step in that direction as was
the moving of the embassy Iran attacked
Saudi Arabia for the first time ever the
United States had no response um the
United States negotiated with the
Taliban exclusively we didn't include
the afghanistani government at all in
that negotiation and you know under
Biden you know we leave Donald Trump had
Drew down our troops to Historic low
levels and he'd set a timetable telling
the Taliban we were going to be out by a
certain date and that there was the
Afghanistan government was even involved
there was land promised to the Taliban
that the Afghanistan government didn't
even know about was one of the reasons
why the country fell so fast is when the
Taliban started coming in they didn't
even have to fight for some areas
they're like this is actually ours and
the government was like [ __ ] this this
is [ __ ] um all this to say and I
understand we can we we with anybody I
could argue also if you are hearing me
and if you're a conservative large
figure and you want argue over any of
these things I will gladly dive into any
of these issues with extreme detail I
would love to um all of this to say that
when people cite cognitive issues I'm
sympathetic towards it um but man what
is Donald Trump's cogn that I don't feel
like he made almost any good foreign
policy decisions I don't think pulling
out of the Iran nuclear deal was a good
idea I don't think giving Kim photo ops
without getting any concessions was a
good idea pretty sure Pence and
Tillerson both cursed Trump for that I
think behind the scenes because they
were like they're look they're testing
missiles again we did nothing um yeah
there just man if that's like a
cognitive Trump I don't know maybe I
would prefer Trump with less cognition
so whoever's behind the scenes running
things wouldn't make the same horrible
decisions but yeah or maybe I guess
maybe the argument against what I just
said is that um is is that it's not
Biden running it then it's the Deep
state so who knows what their whims are
um the the final thing that I'll say is
um you mentioned about the lack of
shared narrative um I think that that
shared narrative I think that part of
what it came from was that we lived in
the same material reality so you have to
confront facts at some point uh
hearkening back to the toaster [ __ ]
example you if you live in a shared
reality uh have you ever heard of the
saying like racism doesn't survive first
Contact mhm yeah that like it's no
surprise that Liberals are less racist
and conservatives CU liberals grow up in
more diverse cities I said it's not
because they're better people it's just
when you're around a certain type of
people you are you you get better you
humanize them more it's just a fact of
life um when we're able to divor uh
divorce our realities more and more and
more and more we're creating worlds that
are irreconcilable because we we we
don't even disagree on values that much
we just live in totally different
fact-based worlds the example I always
give is I think that you have 99%
alignment in Americans when it comes to
the idea of a vaccine mandate people
think that they're debating the vaccine
mandate but they're not really they're
debating how dangerous covid is and how
dangerous the vaccine is because if I
were to say here's a 100% safe vaccine
and here's a disease that incubates for
two weeks and then has a 50% fatality
rate I think conservatives would be
practicing their Second Amendment right
to make sure that their neighbors are
getting vaccinated because then would
get infected and killed right and then
on the flip side if I say like do you
think that we should mandate vaccines
for the cold or else you lose your job
even like
like 99% of progressives and Liber like
no probably not that would be insane
right so we think we have these huge
value disagreements but it's actually
it's not ethical it's not normative
disagreements it's actually epistemic
disagreements disguise masquerading as
normative disagreements people will
argue whether or not they're pro-choice
or pro-life everybody's pro-choice and
everybody's pro- life what you're
arguing about is whether you're you're
you think a baby is a fetus right where
people argue against or for vaccine
mandates or lockdowns but value-wise we
all probably align pretty well nobody
watched a zombie movie and thought man
you people should have been out like
giving the zombies hugs they probably
like oh they should have been even more
strict their quarantine we're just
disagreeing factually on what's actually
happening and it's causing it to seem
like we have these huge Divergence and
values we don't really we just don't
live in the same reality anymore yeah
it's interesting it's something I call
Base assumptions so you're building your
belief on something based assumption on
abortion The second sperm sperm and egg
make contact and it's fertilized that
that's a life that based assumption then
makes the rest of what they're saying
make sense all right I want to ask
because
on this idea of you seem very
comfortable voting for Biden despite
thankfully not spending time saying he's
not in cognitive decline um and I'm not
we may have different views on what a
president's role is what should the
president do what's their
purpose what should the president do
that's a really good um it's a really
good question I feel like the president
is the spiritual leader and head
representative and cheerleader of your
country um the president of the United
States is the one that other countries
look to when they think of what America
is right now the president has the
exclusive authority to negotiate
treaties with other countries right
article powers that are granted to the
President right so the president is our
he's our representative and our
cheerleader and our ambassador to the
world this is my president he's the one
who talks to your president he's the one
that goes to Nato he's the one that um
or goes to the UN assemblies and make
speech this is my president right um so
I think that that's a job that he has
internationally um and then I think a
job that he has domestically or
nationally is the president has to find
a way to Advocate and push for the
things that he believes um he can do
that judicially by making appointments
um or nominations rather to the Supreme
Court that he feels are important um he
does that legislatively by telling
Congress what he will or won't veto and
then he encourages his party uh and he
uses his bully pulpit and his ability to
support people to push legislation um
and he does that as part of the
executive branch and how he decides he
wants to execute the laws that congress
passes right so whether that looks like
DACA from uh Obama or whether it looks
like border enforcement from Trump um
these are like the the jobs of the
president he he's our number one cheer
leader our number one ambassador he's
the uniter but also the guy that pushes
in the policy Direction um and then he
executes his roles and His function as
the head of government and I think these
are all incredibly important jobs as
president agreed do you think if Biden
was elected that he would survive
another term
um in terms of like will he die yes I
have no
idea I don't know for either one the
thing is is like does that factor into
your decision then is maybe a better
question do you care if he survives the
full time no it wouldn't even be a no if
he were to die in K were to take over I
would like it's like I said for me I
view Trump as like an existential threat
and that Donald Trump to democracy or to
life to to the existence existential to
the existence of America as it is as a
democratic Republic I think that Donald
Trump represents a like there's a chance
that when he's president the United
States is irreversibly changed and goes
in a different direction that it can't
come back from um didn't you say at the
beginning though you didn't think that
this would be our last
election I think I was like agnostic on
it I don't know I said it's possible
that it's not I I don't I can't I can't
get like I said that the scary thing
about Trump is there's a whole host of
possibilities and who the [ __ ] you can't
like narrow it it's very unpredictable
um but I think that that's it's with
easily within the realm of possibility
that Donald Trump ends that somehow but
then I also said it's possible that he
becomes president he's just like a lame
duck for four years because he's like
[ __ ] you I got mine get [ __ ] that's
all I wanted to do it's hard to say I
don't know but but also to the you just
spoke to the cognitive decline um I'm
not trying to sound biased or anything
but the only reason why I say I'm not
sure is because like uh it feels like
I'm going totally on fields here I don't
know how many old people you've known
but I feel like with old people there's
this thing where they kind of like do
like they like do this and they kind of
like go down a little bit and they're
like whatever and then at some point at
some day something happens they either
fall or they go to the hospital
something happens like um I don't know
if I've ever seen I'm thinking my
grandma I'm thinking my grandpa and I'm
thinking of a couple an I don't think
I've seen anybody just like decline like
this usually they just kind of like mosy
along and then something happens and
they're like something it's like boom
but I don't know if maybe yeah I I I
only say that like that could happen to
Biden I could see it happening to Biden
in a year I could see it happening to
Donald Trump in a year or two guy's
pretty big uh goty you know maybe he has
like a heart attack or a stroke or
something like I could see that happen
and I think any honest person again
they're both over 80 I think that
Trump's General Health seems to be
better than Biden's I think um although
I'll say Trump made fun of Biden for
falling off a bike and Trump's way of
making fun him was say he would never
ride a bike but um yeah that all is to
say is that at that age Like Anything
could happen to where like oh [ __ ] [ __ ]
one of them just like got sick and is
dying yeah okay so uh there's two ways
to go through any moment in life you
don't always have to be in one lane or
the other but to move towards or to move
away from something I get the feeling
you are not moving towards by tell me if
you are but you're moving away from
Trump
period kind of I would move away from
Trump period but like I said that Donald
Trump's I think Administration was wor
ended up being worse than any reasonable
person could have predicted I think
Biden's Administration ended up being
way better than any reasonable person
could have predicted the amount of
bipartisan legislation now if you think
legislation is bad or you don't like
government obviously you're going to
disagree with me for other reasons I
think it's leg it's a Administration was
good but I think Biden's done a really
good job at at least bringing lawmakers
together in Congress to pass bipartisan
legisl he's done things that Trump said
he would do that he couldn't like the
infastructure bill um he's done things
that Trump said he would do Trump tried
to bring back manufacturing with onlyi
ter kind of suck Biden had the chips
passed um like I I think that Biden has
done a pretty good job and it's another
[ __ ] president that where the liberal
comes in and they have to pick up the
pieces from the last Administration
Obama came in after [ __ ] 2007 and
Biden has to come in after [ __ ] covid
that Trump spent the first month denying
even existed um so yeah I think that
Biden's Administration has done a really
good job way better even like some
progresses are like oh okay Sher F yeah
this guy's done more than I thought he
would so if he can continue on that
Trend without dying do you do you think
Biden can win at this
point um man I don't know it's hard to
say the polls don't look too good but
there's been a weird Divergence um it
happened in the last midterms where even
though Biden seems to pull very disfavor
uh the down ballot elections are not
impacted anywhere near as much as you
would expect them to be so I don't know
if that means that the polling snapshots
right now aren't accurately capturing
Americans feelings or if people just
really don't like Biden but they'll vote
down ballot for Democrat so Trump is
likely to win or if voters will care
more or get more mobilized around
election time as the dates approach um
I'm not sure I don't know if the
Democratic party can afford to wait um I
know there's been a lot of talks
yesterday I think AOC even went live on
instam to talk about it um where the
Democratic the DNC there's like a lot of
whispering in the background about
replacing him um this needs to stop I
think the DNC needs to fix figure out
like are we replacing him or are we not
if they're not everybody has to get on
board and message together and if they
are then he needs to step down
immediately and they need to either do
an open convention or have comma come
forth and pick a vice like they have to
figure it out and get on board with
their messaging but um what would your
advice to them
be I don't know man that's a really hard
decision um the the thing that I always
say is uh I I lean towards keeping Biden
on the ticket just because it's more
predictable but if the polling slides
enough and it's like unwinable then [ __ ]
it you do your Hail Mary um if you want
to swap them out for someone else like
if they did it I'm not going to be mad
if they do it I'm like oh that's such a
horrible decision but I do think that
people um discount how murky the waters
are once you've replaced your candidate
like that because people seem to be
saying like oh no like we just swap in
Nim or if you know kamla comes in or you
know we bring in um you know um Gretchen
Whitmer um like it's going to be it'll
be great everybody it's like there's a
world where that happens where Nome
debates Trump and he just destroys him
and it's like holy [ __ ] the whole part's
reinvigorated this guy's like a he's
basically a child compared to these two
and it's like oh that's awesome there's
another world where he gets nominated
and people forget that you had
politicians that were like America's
Darlings or at least The Darlings of
parties that were like destroyed in like
months there were so many people me
included by the way that thought that
Des santz was going to upseat or upset
Trump that it was he was come out this
he had everything going for him he was
popular in the whole party he had a good
record of governance Florida was seen by
all Republic is like the stal against
the co lockdowns and everything like
this guy had everything going for him
and then the very first time I saw him
talk to a voter I was like oh [ __ ] this
guy is does not have it um same thing
with uh Chris Chris it was Chris Cuomo
right was the former Governor yeah that
guy everybody loved him people were
talking about oh two scandals Andrew
Cuomo was the governor I think was it
Andrew wait who which was one that had
sexual one yeah Chris is the one I think
uh that's the pundit and then his
brother I think it's Andrew anyway one
of the I think yeah yeah and then the
two scandals came out and he was gone
immediately he like disappeared entirely
um it's not as applicable but for people
that are at least my age or no um no
yeah people that at least my age uh
Giuliani was the most loved [ __ ] he
was America's mayor after 911 like I
can't like maybe some people in New York
might have had mixed feelings with some
parts but for the most part Julian had
an overwhelmingly positive opinion he
destroyed his reputation under Trump um
all this to say that if you want to swap
somebody out I'm not going to sit here
and scream against it I'll United behind
basically anybody the Democratic Party
nomin
but um don't pretend that just because
you swapped a new person it's going to
be an easy Road like so much could
happen after that point Fair um I
don't I don't think it is super fruitful
when people are like uh do you want to
say sorry do you take this back that the
other but I do want to ask um I have
said many times that I would take a
bullet for my wife and love or hate
somebody's politics I was was moved very
deeply by the fact that
Corey
uh literally Shield his family with his
body and took a bullet
um does that willingness to do that I
assume you would do that for your own
son does that land for you is that a I
mean I can have sympathy for him as a
father but not as an
American that's very clear destiny thank
you for taking that Stephen I can't
believe it I see you as Destiny so many
times social one more question one
question of course of course your
biggest hold out for Biden is the
senility if or I I'm saying that as a
statement that is true right is that
that's like one of your biggest holdouts
for him that is my biggest hold out by
far if today it's announced that Biden
is swapped with kamla do you reconsider
immediately or are you still probably
riding with RFK I would I would
reconsider in the truest sense of the
word that I would go considerer her yeah
or I'm sorry that's what I me she feels
completely invisible to me I have no
idea what her policies are stances are I
just see memes about her so I know as of
right now I don't have an original
thought on her so I would have to look
for sure okay and then can you if you
share it I don't know how political you
get why do you like RFK what are the
things that drives you to he gives me a
concrete vision of what the future could
be um he makes me very excited about um
the positive direction that he would
take things in terms of health in terms
of transparency in the government in
terms of what he would do with the
budget I wish more people had watched
the debate that he did with um so you
had Biden and Trump doing their thing on
CNN and then he actually did a live
thing with I think it was John stasel
moderating and so they would basically
press pause on the live stream of the
Biden Trump thing and say okay now our K
you have a couple minutes to answer and
those two it was just at times boring at
times depressing but they were never
talking about substantive issues and RFK
just kept bringing it back to uh we
really have to focus on the budget and I
come very close to being a single-issue
voter on the budget I think that we are
going to drive off a cliff and I think
that while uh you were very accurate
earlier when you said we can have a
civil war without economic hardship when
you have economic hardship every problem
is is magnified a h hundredfold and the
economy is actually the thing I focus on
a lot that was sort of how I started
getting into the cultural side of things
and then that sort of like pulls you in
a little bit to the political side um
he's the only one talking about it I
think it's absolutely critical that
people understand what's going on that
both Trump and Biden printed an obscene
amount of money and if you think of that
as a a way to steal money from the
people which I think it is and then it
goes back to the rich so this is where I
start getting Beyond animated and I'm
one of the rich that it helps and if I'm
telling you this is dumb this is
terrible you should be running in the
opposite direction um hopefully people
take that seriously uh he is focused on
physical health he talks about those
things I I did about 12 hours of
research so you can think that's a lot
or the world's tiniest drop in a bucket
but I did about 12 hours of research on
him for an interview that I did with him
I did not see any signs of crazy I'm not
doubting that they're out there and I'm
sure people could show me stuff that I
would just be mortified by um but in
real time I was very impressed certainly
of the three options that I have okay
can I ask one more quick question or we
need to go right now let's do it there
are no Stormtroopers at the door no okay
one more quick question I'm sorry
because you brought minutes before they
come kicking us out four minutes okay
quick super quick meme question okay
because you brought up deep state in
counterculture and I this is the thing
that I saw happen it when I I was a
supervisor in a restaurant and this
happened to my [ __ ] Eve Corporation
okay when I played an eve and I'm
curious what happens in big businesses I
call this second meeting okay second
meeting is where the first meeting is
where the exec the bosses the managers
or whatever come out and they talk to
their employees hey guys you know we're
having these issues this what we need to
do do you need any help from me whatever
you have your meeting and then you have
something that I call second meeting
which is where these [ __ ] that never
bring up their concerns in the main
meeting all [ __ ] meet in the corner
and they're always like one or two
leaders and they're always like bitching
about management they never actually
[ __ ] bring it did this happen in big
businesses too or is this just a small
of course and you so we have built a
culture into our company where that's
anathema and even there it's going to
happen a little bit yeah um but as long
as you have enough people that that see
the positive outcome of having a culture
we call it a whisper culture sure so
there's no Whispers if you're going to
say something say it out loud uh when
you have people that see the benefits of
that that there's no backstabbing
bitching gossiping all of that stuff is
just absolutely off the table they'll
speak up pretty fast and be like don't
do that because they know where it goes
but yes even a company that um a
gigantic company down to a mediumsized
company all this stuff exists you have
to work very hard to avoid it gotcha
okay thanks so much for having me on I
appreciate it Stephen thank you for
coming on man um I again think that
you're a very important part of the
sensemaking apparatus I hope you don't
go on a full blood sport Arc I hope you
uh stay in the I'm going to meet people
and just walk them through the logic by
all means destroy them with facts and
logic I'm here for that um but yeah I
hope that we continue to be able to
learn from you thanks for joining me
today thanks for having me for sure
everybody if you haven't already be sure
to subscribe and until next time my
friends be legendary take care peace the
following is a previous video that
expands on this topic and brings you new
ideas I hope you guys enjoy it it's
amazing what's interesting that has
happened in the last say 10 days post
debate is that the machine the system
The Matrix whatever you want to call it
it can no longer control the narrative