Kind: captions
Language: en
welcome back to impact Theory as we dive
into part two Sam Harris and I confront
the Urgent matters of systemic racism
Trump the problem with the right and
rehash and old beef he had with me and
Constantine kiss's position let's get
back into
it um so the Border I think is something
that we can end up over focusing on I
think the border is a symptom of
something larger for me uh it is a few
different ideas that are um people are
in the grips of so so thing number one
is that for call it the last 50ish years
there's been a March through the
institutions with a radical Marxist just
uh directionalize it uh Viewpoint that
has come out to Dei and I think what Dei
is designed to do is break institutions
by
hijacking uh people's uh compassion
circuitry and that the real thing that
makes that stick is that also everybody
wants to do something incredibly
meaningful for the world and so you have
people that have a pretty cynical um
desire they're driven by Will To Power
and so their cynical desire is oh I can
break this institution I can tear it
down I can do my good thing in the world
uh by convincing people
to
um do make their contribution to the
World by just absolutely obliterating
power dynamics and that ultimately this
is a game of power being played but the
the sort of ground troops I think
oftentimes really do have wonderful
motives are motivated by compassion they
really want to help
um does that feel accurate or do you
think I'm oversimplifying or missing
something yeah I agree with that I think
um certainly most people most of the
time have uh reasonably good intentions
I mean incentives are a lot I mean
people can be relied upon to get pushed
around by what's in their self-interest
right so if you if you're going to make
windfall profits going down One path uh
even if that path seems uh ethically
suspect it's going to take a um a very
high integrity person to resist those
incentives um so what so the larger
solve here is we want systems of
incentives that make it easier and
easier for even selfish people to behave
more and more ethically and more even
more and more like Saints right if you
have the right system of incentives you
can even have sociopaths effectively
behaving like Saints because they're
just incent they're appropriately
incentivized to do that whereas if you
have the wrong incentives you can have
people who are nearly Saints behaving
like sociopaths because it's just that
the incentives are just overwhelmingly
aimed in the wrong direction um but I I
agree with you that um compassion has
been misdirected
and um just just informed by by bad
information I mean most people who think
to take something like defund the police
for instance that the worst um political
slogan ever patched um the people who
were in favor of defunding the police uh
I'm
sure 100% of them genuinely thought and
probably still think that there is an
epidemic of of you know racist police
violence aimed at at uh the black
community and that the way to address
that compassionately is to have fewer
cops on the streets right like this this
the real risk to young black men is that
they're going to get killed by cops
right that's just not true the real risk
to young black men or other young black
men this is just established Beyond any
possibility of Doubt by the actual
statistics on crime and violence in in
American society um and what you have in
the black community is is bad policing
failures of policing you know murders
don't get solved right petty crime you
have a history of a war the war drugs
which was targeted to to um
disproportionately to to minorities and
that has been terrible and has created a
cycle of incarceration that that has has
been a genuine source of misery and
unfairness in our society and so the War
on Drugs is its own problem and and what
it did to our justice system is is is
certainly worth analyzing and and not
making those mistakes again but when you
actually look at the reality of murder
in America it is overwhelmingly a story
of black men young black men killing
other young black men in the black
community and ineffective policing of
those crimes right and but even on that
and this is this is one of the areas
where I feel like people aren't having
the right they're not arguing at the
right level so I don't think anything
you said is untrue though people will
certainly debate that but compassion is
going to follow you here as well so when
you say uh why cops just really aren't
the problem the stats bear that out
immediately they're going to have an
emotional reaction they're they being um
activists that are trying to make life
better for young black men and so they
look at that and say okay well to to it
sounds Sam like you're trying to say
that there isn't a problem and even if
Sam well I I am literally saying there
isn't the that the problem they think
exists simply does not exist to the best
of our knowledge it it it exist I'm not
saying there's no racist cops out there
I mean yes but that is a rounding error
on the problem of lethal violence
against let me land the plan about what
happens to this part of the audience
when they hear you what they're thinking
in their minds is sure but the reason
that black-on-black violence is the real
concern even if I concede that point is
that they've grown up in a racist system
so of course uh that's going to be a
problem and what I'm saying is uh you
said earlier it's very hard to convince
people to change their mind and I think
the reason for that is what I call frame
of reference when somebody has a frame
of reference they're wearing What I Call
Whole Life beer goggles it just distorts
wildly everything that you see but
you're actually seeing it so you're
looking at it you actually see that this
is a problem of systemic racism that's
why my neighborhood is terrible that's
why black onblack violence is there and
so anybody that denies that is just part
of the systemic racist problem which is
why I don't even necessarily think
they're being manipulative when they say
anybody that denies this is just racist
plain and simple whether there's the
whole concept of um I don't need another
black face I need another black voice
right so that even if somebody um who is
Black is saying this just isn't true the
stats don't bear it out they're going to
get attacked as well because what
they're not addressing is the worldview
that says uh this isn't their fault and
that anybody that's being oppressed
anybody that's starting certainly
poverty is just such an easy way to see
somebody being crushed by some unseen
hand right you just go anybody being
crushed it is isn't their fault and
therefore I'm looking for an external
problem I am not saying hey even though
this isn't your fault that you're
growing up in poverty clearly it's not
your fault you were just born into it
bad luck uh but only you can do
something about it that's where the
Collision has to happen where it's like
I get it this isn't their fault poverty
is a cycle that people are just born
into but the only way out is for that
individual to do a
thing well they may need help I mean I I
I I think it's we we simply don't know
what the perfect social policy is to
eradicate inequality in our society I
think we should I think I think we
should
be I mean to two things are true
simultaneously it's I think it's it's
foolish to imagine that there will be no
inequality and it's I think it's even
foolish to imagine that we want a
society with zero inequality there
there's something about inequality that
is probably useful in a variety of ways
but you've already moved on and but but
no but but just let me just on the point
the the a certain degree of inequality
should be in it's right to play on our
compassion circuits it should be
intolerable to us if we have people
starving to death in America that's just
you know a level of dysfunction we have
to figure out somehow to some way to to
correct we don't have people starving to
death in America and that's that's a
that's one measure of how much better
life is in a society like ours than it
is elsewhere in in the world but we want
the floor to keep as as we produce more
and more wealth we want some of that
wealth to to continue to raise the floor
beneath which no one is going to fall in
our society so even the poorest person
in our society is much less poor than
they are in in subsaharan Africa and
much less poor than anyone was a 100
years ago and that's good that's
progress and we want I I think we we do
not want to live in a society where you
have a Genny Co coefficient like in
Brazil where that it becomes just
rational for rich people to live with
you know in gated compounds with razor
wire across the top because there's just
so much crime out on the sidewalk for
obvious reasons because people are
desperately poor and they're not
figuring out anything else creative to
do with their lives but to rob people
richer than than themselves well so this
this gets to the thing that I'm really
trying to drag people to and and there's
something about the way that I approach
this I am not able to get people um in
my Lane here the reason the Jenny
coefficient matters is is a true thing
about human psychology which is poverty
isn't a problem poverty next to wealth
is a problem because it triggers the I
know you know the capucha monkey thing
give a capucha monkey a cucumber for
doing a thing and is perfectly happy to
take it but it prefers grapes so if you
give its neighbor a grape for the same
task the kapo monkey getting the
Cucumber goes [ __ ] ballistic yanking
on their cage throwing the Cucumber back
at the person I mean it's absolutely
just funny if I'm honest just watching
it happen because you recognize the
truth of that in yourself as a human and
so what where I'm trying to get people
to go is because it's all started with
uh is the West committing suicide and if
it is committing suicide how do we
defend the West if if it is worth
defending I think you've already made a
good case that the West is worth
defending but the line that people need
to draw is it's worth defending because
it yielded better outcomes so now that
our current system is beginning to yield
a Genny coefficient that is bad we can
say okay something is starting to break
down and so now we need only address
that it is currently yielding an ever
increasing Genny coefficient and if we
know that leads to violence and our
norstar is human flourishing and humans
don't flourish in violence we now have a
system that is no longer outputting the
thing it needs to Output so to me the
West is predicated on one simple fact
some ideas yield better outcomes than
others you must put those ideas out into
a market place and let them compete so
we let people have free speech we let
people have private property we let
people generate wealth by creating
things that other people want and hey
even though it's a trade-off it is
definitely not a perfect system that you
can then just track based on results now
what I see breaking down is an assault
on results-based systems full stop
because they yield inequality and going
back to you have cynical actors driven
by built of power hijacking The
Compassion of people to get them to stop
looking at outcomes and so now you have
Thomas Soul's quote the last 30 years
have been marked by exchanging what
works meaning it yields an outcome with
what sounds good
so I'm I from what I can see the only
way to defend the West is to get people
to buy into some ideas yield better
outcomes and that we must judge every
social program every potential way that
we solve a problem through the outcome
that it
generates yeah I I just I mean there
there's a couping is there's intentions
you have to have the right intentions I
mean if you have bad intentions then
you're you're going to seek bad outcomes
so we don't want to Discount the role of
intention but yeah we we want to know
whether the the goods we're attempting
to achieve in the world are actually
achievable and if we're not if we're
producing Harms that that we don't want
we should be aware of that and we should
error correct and in so far as we don't
have systems that are responsive to that
or or or incentives that are responsive
to that that's that's clearly a problem
um we but we should recognize that there
are there consequences to just failing
to coordinate like if you take the
American society as a whole if you
have let's let's say I mean I'm not
saying we have good remedies for
homelessness in California but let's say
we did let's say we just had the most
compassionate and well-intended and in
fact wise policies with respect to
homelessness in in uh and what to do
about it in California and they didn't
have any of that in neighboring states
right in neighboring states they just
had a Draconian get off my lawn policy
right well then California is going to
attract all of the nation's homeless or
all of the homeless from the surrounding
states even with a good policy and and
be overrun and to some degree I I think
that's probably happened in California
uh because our doesn't that in to you
automatically mean it isn't a good
policy well no but I'm
saying idiot compassion can have bad
consequences that way where you just if
you're just essenti essentially
subsidizing fentanyl Addiction on your
sidewalks right that's obviously stupid
even locally but it's going to have this
Global consequence of of drawing more of
the the drug addicted and and and
homeless to you but I'm saying that even
if we had a good policy right which is
better than just funding drug addiction
on our sidewalks um if no if no other
neighboring states have good policies
well then we're still going to be
pulling more than our fair share and it
could break our system too so like we we
need we have a coordination problem that
we have to solve as a nation and
arguably as a as a global civilization I
think there there are problems that we
can't solve as a nation right I mean you
know climate change is not something any
one nation can
address and uh a global pandemic is not
something that any one nation can
address right so we need coordinated
efforts even at a global scale um and we
should recognize this even from a
position I mean you don't have to be a
saint or even to be especially motivated
by compassion to want these Goods to to
be shared broadly you just have to be
wisely selfish I mean you just have to
recogn no matter how selfish you are as
a a billionaire
in Silicon Valley no matter how much you
are taken in by the illusion that you
are completely self-made and that nobody
gave you you know nobody gave you any
help at all even though that you even
though you can't account for any of the
abilities and contexts that allowed you
to do the work you did right um but be
as be as resolutely selfish as you want
then ask yourself the question just how
many homeless people do you want to have
to step over on the sidewalk leaving
your compound right do you want to be a
do you want to feel unsafe at a
restaurant because there's so many
people panhandling you know at the
tables you know in the cafe do you want
to be able to sit outside in a
restaurant or is that going to be
Unthinkable now because there there's
there so much chaos on the street just
what sort of society do you want to be
in do you want to be surrounded by
desperate envious people or do you want
to be surrounded by creative
self-actualized happy people who can be
your customers and who are who are going
to who are going to celebrate your
success when you do when you do
something visibly successful or are you
going to or do you want to be surrounded
by people who are thinking maybe it's
time to get the pitchforks and murder
you right it's
like even just just just a psychopathic
commitment to self
should bear at least some some modum of
of of
um altruism with for for self
preservation alone you should want life
to be minimally good for everyone around
you and uh so I'm so we we don't need
widespread sainthood to get to to agree
on on policies that would would make
life better for more and more people and
and solve a problem like
homelessness what do you need then I
mean we well we need to cancel dumb
ideas right I mean they're they obvious
they're so for instance our default is
in America that in a in public space
we've got you know we've got freedom of
assembly right you should be able to
you're you are free to be on the
sidewalk right it's a public space it's
not you're not trespassing it's not a
private space and our default sense is
that someone should be free to live out
the chaos of their mental illness or
their drug addiction or their
violence on in front of us and even die
in front of us on the sidewalk and that
compassion the better part of compassion
is allowing that to happen allowing the
autonomy to of just living your
disregulation out in front of others and
it somehow is unseemly or bigoted or
otherwise selfish to point point to the
obvious social cost of having to live
with this dysfunction in our midst right
so so like that that to have to cross
the street with your children so as to
avoid the obviously insane or obviously
you know drug addicted uh person on this
side of the street that's a social CA
right that's a that is that is there are
businesses that aren't open opening or
that will soon be closing because of all
this chaos here there are parts of town
that you're not going to want you as as
a parent are not going to want to go go
to or have your kids go to those
restaurants will close right like I this
is this all of the spirals and we all
have an interest in figuring out how to
help that person and figuring out how
that help is best delivered in a way
that doesn't make this particular part
of the city and in some cases that some
of the nicest parts of the most valuable
parts of of a city uninhabitable and um
so we we we need policies that so in in
this specific case we we need a policy
that allows you to take someone off the
sidewalk and we and and and I
recognition that the really
compassionate thing to do is to intrude
into their lives and get them the help
they need at a place where it can be
delivered not not on the sidewalk in
front of a of a you know a department
store um
and yes these there are people who need
to be taken out of society and and
institutionalized in some sense whether
it's it's just deliver uh Rehabilitation
with respect to drug addiction or it's
or it's mental health treatment or
getting them on appropriate medication
um there's there are better and worse
ways to do this there's no there's no
perfect way to do any of this but why
don't we get these policies well because
so so at the first cut you have uh
people who have a very confused notion
of compassion which is uh it is to
intrude upon this person to not to move
them off the sidewalk to move them out
of your nice neighborhood to be
concerned in the first place about your
nice neighborhood for you rich guy to
care about crossing the street with your
kids right all of that is white
privilege and gentrification and and
completely
um uninteresting from an ethical
perspective like that is that is some
species of selfish evil does that like a
trick that has been played on people or
is that just accidental did that come
from a good place how did that narrative
get started well it's it's it's easy to
see
how if you have a very class-based view
of of everything and you you resent
certain parts of you you resent areas of
town becoming gentrified and and rents
going up and it becoming harder to live
in those areas because rents have gotten
higher like like if all that if that
whole process seems dystopian to you in
principle well then you're going to have
then then you're going to say all of
this is a consequence of of you the rich
people getting what they want and
extracting it from this part of society
right we wouldn't have this homelessness
problem in the first place if housing
was just more affordable that may be
true in a few cases some cases some
percentage of cases it's not true across
the board I mean so so much of of the
homeless problem is a problem of
Substance Abuse and Mental Illness right
it's not just that rents are too high um
but in so far as in so far as building
more housing and affordable housing is
the remedy we should do that but we have
to recognize it's not the remedy across
the board and we can't we in California
can't become a sanctuary for the entire
country's homeless problem um so it's
again it's requires a coordinated effort
across States but but you you have to
dissect that
each moment of moral confusion that is a
block a blocker to a a an actually comp
passionate and effective policy and the
first one here
is people have a right that person who's
who's lying in his own vomit in front of
a the J crew store on the
mall has just as much a right to be
there as you do to go shopping there
right and if you own J crew well you're
just a you're you know you're just some
rich guy who who um is worried about
your you know your retail business and
that's a completely superficial concern
compared to the real human emergency of
this person's life you know on the
sidewalk um and it stops there right you
you're you're some species of bigot to
not want to have to step over that
person in order to go into a store and
you're some species of bigot if you're a
store owner noticing your business being
destroyed by the dis by the chaos and
dysfunction on on on the sidewalk and
all of that class-based resentment
toward the rich people who are trying to
figure out how their
this this what used to be a nice
neighborhood got so ugly
um that has to be dissected and and
realigned with a really compassionate
policy which is you are not doing this
person any favors letting them bake in
the sun you know on fenel on a sidewalk
right like that is not the freedom you
should want them to be exercising right
you should you have to figure out a a a
a uh a policy by which you can intrude
upon their lives and and move them to a
place where they can actually get help
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Theory do you think simply um explaining
to people what the moral math ought to
be will actually make this happen or do
things have to get so bad that pain and
suffering plus having heard somewhere a
podcast at one time Sam Harris walks me
through the moral math swings us back in
the opposite direction well I I I don't
think there are that many Minds that
have to be changed I think you know the
people in charge the people who are on
our city councils and in the mayor's
offices and the governor Etc those are
the minds that have to be changed and
then we get we can get new policies um I
mean so far as you people have to vote
for initiatives all of that I mean there
there's there's a war of ideas that has
to be won but I don't think it's it's
hard to win it and certainly there's a
lot of lwh hanging fruit here I I think
the again to come back to where we
started with this conversation there
there's a
distortion uh that that social media has
has created for us where you have a very
small percentage of activists who are
seriously confused about right and wrong
and good and evil who are so loud on
social media that they cow everyone into
silence I mean it's just it's just so
painful to become the target of people
who have way too much time on their
hands uh uh on social media that that
people step away from it and it's but it
is a minority I mean we we just have a
very distorted sense of just how many
people are
I mean to take to take an issue we
haven't touched here but around which
there's a ton of activism like just just
just what percentage of people in the
trans Community are actually trans
activists who are making people's life
hell online right it's probably a small
percentage of even the trans community
and the trans Community is the tiniest
percentage of of any society and so you
have you have not a lot of people just
just going scorched Earth you know
online and and it's such that you I mean
it becomes a a a national political
priority if you're a Democrat to to
figure out just what's your policy on
the whole trans thing as though it's
like it's right up there with like you
know a civilizational collision with
China and Russia and Iran it's like we
got that here and then pretty much at
the same level we've got you know trans
athletes and trans baths and and
and uh you know I maybe have to give
equal time to those things right and
even if you're if you're Biden you know
I mean like I mean it's insane what he
has done to his own political prospects
just on that issue I'm not saying that
that you know that we shouldn't be
compassionate around the trans issue and
that we shouldn't have political
equality for Trans people all of that's
real and worth talking about but the
idea that that that you know Biden has
used the amount of political Capital
that he you know barely had
on that issue the way he has
um I mean it's just it's it's it's a a
pure Distortion based I think largely
upon what what activists have managed to
do on social
media there's a concept in finance about
debt cycles and that there's no escaping
the debt cycle and they don't take the
exact amount of time but there's six
stages uh that people move through you
start by reshuffling all the debt
usually through just blood death turmoil
uh you start building from the ground up
in this really great society that uh has
not tripped into uh over accumulating
debt yet has not had the inflationary
practice of printing money and you just
basically March your way towards the
sixth phase which is total collapse
because you've overprinted the money you
get hyperinflation uh your debt is just
unimaginably High and the only way to
discharge that is Through Blood letting
and so people war and fight and they
just say okay Jesus we're just just
going to let go of the old debt and
start a new and that's your cycle you go
over and over I um I don't want the
following statement to be true but I
worry that it might be that the um Good
Men hard times like that whole cycle is
just a cycle and we have to go through
it and that my earlier statement about
there just has to be enough pain where
uh your daughter gets attacked by a
crackhead uh on your doorstep and now
enough people have that kind of
experience that they just don't care
whether they sound PC or not they're
just like nope this isn't going to
happen anymore to your earlier point
about if uh the Democrats don't protect
the Border then fascists will like at
some point people have just had enough
and they're going to stand up and
they're going to take this back and you
get this violent swinging of the
pendulum um I would much prefer that
people can be persuaded with ideas but
when I look at the world
um I just
in the face of you saying there's only a
few people that have to have their minds
changed and I'm like you've been out
here for 20 years yelling into the wind
uh and I have certainly been influenced
by your ideas but it doesn't seem like
the right people are it seems instead
that people are breaking off into
different states and people are leaving
California going to Texas going to
Florida if they don't want to put up
with this kind of thing which is not in
my estimation the ideal scenario so do
you think that it just um there's a
better way to present these ideas and we
really will win at that level um
or not well I do worry about that that
kind of pendulum swing and and
um us
just losing our patience and losing our
cool and and suddenly becoming way more
callous than we are just because we are
swinging back we're swinging away from
some
um you
know s some very silly policies um and
their bad consequences I I think I mean
again I I've mentioned this a couple
times but it's just worth keeping in
mind um there is this massive problem of
preference falsification where you where
we it it is is seeming like many more
people agree with the the fringes than
do and the silence so the Silence of the
majority is being misread as as
agreement or at least just or or
certainly not disagreement and whereas
it really is just silence and in many
cases I I know this firsthand I there
are many people who agree with
me on my EDG as opinions and just would
never say anything in public I mean
they're so grateful that I'm out here
saying the things I'm saying so that
they don't have to but they don't see
the consequence of their silence in
their Lane whatever that that lane is um
because it seems like in most cases it
seems like mere acquiescence to the
crazy opinions that they're happy I'm
criticizing right so um so like I me
what you said about Dei right um I mean
until
yesterday to be against Dei in any in
any way really I mean to to to do
anything other than celebrate it as you
know finally we've
arrived is to be
racist and and to be called racist in in
America certainly is the wor it's it's
the worst thing you can be called
probably you know next to a pedophile um
and to merely be called it is to be
tainted with I mean to to be called it
with no justification is is in many
cases enough to to perform a kind of
reputational murder and
um and and that's just we have to grow
out of that you know we have to so if
you want to if you really want equality
if you really want to embrace M MLK's
vision of of valuing people based on the
content of their character and get past
the superficial differences of between
people like skin color you have to you
have to hold to that right and you can't
overcorrect into this ebex Kandi
anti-racist uh re you know I.E reversed
racist uh uh attitude which is white
people are bad and it's completely
legitimate to harm their interests
prefer preferentially because as a way
of correcting for all the history of
inequality in our society I'm not I mean
I I think it's totally valid to to look
at the consequences of past racism and
worry that there's something more we
should be doing to correct for the what
what is what is currently a status quo
that when you look at the details you
should still make people uncomfortable I
mean the fact that on average white
families have eight times the wealth of
black families in America
right to whatever degree past racism is
the reason why that's the case that is a
legacy that nobody should be happy about
and it's completely understandable that
there are people who look at that and
say okay well we should pay reparations
right that's the way to solve this
problem now I happen to think it's the
wrong way to solve the problem there's
and you if you if you want to hear
someone
withstanding on this topic talk about it
you can listen to John McWater and Glenn
Lowry you know they've kind of dissected
why they think this this would be a
disaster but um but the impulse to just
based we know what our history was with
respect to race in America and to look
at present inequality with respect to
wealth and health outcomes and levels of
crime it's completely natural to say
okay wait a minute we've got something
to atone for here and what can we do to
to to help
um I'm totally sympathetic with that Dei
at the level of who gets into medical
school is the wrong way to help right to
lower the standards so that when you
walk into an office and your doctor's
black and you have to think oh my God I
know that for the last 15 years
standards have been lowered at every
stage along the way to promote more
black black cardiologists and black
neurologists and now I have to now I'm
left thinking does this guy or gal have
lesser qualifications than the Asian
doctor that I could go to or the Jewish
doctor I could go to and to know that in
many cases the answer is probably yes
given the system we've built that's
awful right it's it's ra it's racist to
have to think that way but the fact that
you're you could be justified in
thinking that way based on the on bad
policies that is that's serving no one's
interest certainly not the black
community's interest so if we're going
to put a a thumb on the scale
we have to figure out ways of doing it
that don't
actually
destroy what is good about meritocracy
right where you know that the person
who's flying the plane is actually
qualified to fly the plane and you did
you they you didn't great on a curve
based on skin color so as to get more
black or brown Pilots I mean that's just
no one wants that at 30,000 ft
Everyone's an elitist everyone wants a
qualified pilot right everyone when it
when when it's brain surgery for your
kid you're an elitist you want a
qualified brain surgeon you don't want
the Dei version of brain surgery um and
when we find out that Asians had to
score 400 points higher on the SAT to
get into Harvard because of their Dei
policy um and then you you know Harvard
was correcting for it on the admissions
committee by saying that Asians had
lacked personality right this is was was
their euphamism for how they were going
to implement their Reverse Racism um
it's an embarrassment in the
and rightly so for the whole institution
so
we there's a t there there there's no
question that there are inequalities
that we want to respond to
compassionately there's no question that
there'll still be some amount of
inequality left that we ultimately have
to convince ourselves we don't care
about right because there's no way to
make everything equal all the time um
there's no question we want to figure
out how to spread the wealth around but
we want to incentivize creative self P
people to make as much wealth as
possible these are all there are going
to be tradeoffs at the margins but at
the in the current environment it's very
easy to recognize bad policies yeah um I
want to paint a vision for how I think
uh we get out of this let me know if you
see any holes in this because you've
done a good job of M mapping the problem
space um I come at it as a business guy
which I think is the right training for
looking at something like this because
you're getting punched in the face by
the market all day and you realize to
pay your staff their salaries and make
sure they they can take care of their
family you better solve these problems
real fast uh you you have to understand
what a good outcome is it has to be very
well defined and you have to be thinking
kind of like a pool player uh it's not
enough to get the ball in the pocket you
want it to go in you have to set up the
the Q ball for the next one that you're
going to knock in so think of it as
second and third order consequences so I
think I'll I'll just grant that that um
doing some of the admissions saying that
Harvard was doing was really coming from
a wonderful place they were just only
thinking first order consequences they
were just thinking I'm going to give
more African-Americans a chance at this
but they may not have even looked at the
die already being cast by if Jeffrey
kenada is right and it really comes down
to the number of words that a child
Hears by the age of three and the ratio
of positive to negative words because of
what it does to the language centers of
your brain um that uh by the time they
get to a college admissions board that's
really not the place to to try to help
them again now I'm looking at as a
business guy and I'm willing to say and
quite frankly I changed the whole
direction of my business when I realized
that this was true that in some ways you
have to give up on adults and that's
just you're going to work so hard to try
to overcome those problems uh whereas
Jeffrey Canada has started schools and
he'll put the school in the same
building as a school that's failing I
mean just bad test grades everywhere you
look and he chooses children randomly
from the population of kids that would
go to that school so they're not hand
selected and they just absolutely crush
the test scores that they get so same
kids same school building but different
teachers different techniques and they
just absolutely Smash and it's really
really incredible and so I'd be very
curious to know again I need to know
what outcome I consider desirable if
those kids with which have better
reading learning mathematics scores more
of them go to and graduate from college
uh I'm going to guess now I am guessing
this part that they have um higher
lifetime earnings but I'm also going to
guess that they're higher in verbal
fluency they are higher in mathematical
fluency all of things which just as a
selfish person in society I just want to
um through human freedoms and ensuring
that they are armed with the best
education and thusly best brain
development humanly possible I get to
extract the value that they'll add to
the world right so Road are going to get
better maybe cars get better uh
education gets better just medicine gets
better everything gets better better
better y but that is again it's an out
focusing on the outcome and
understanding not just the getting the
first ball in the pocket but how do I
set myself up well for the next shot uh
but the thing that I think freaks
everybody out so much that I I just
cannot get this idea to to be um
repeated by anybody is that I say you
have to give up on adults like I it's
just the reward of time and energy is
just not there they can make change
adults can make change please understand
like I have a a university that I teach
only adults at um but they're what I
call the 2% and so I started all of this
trying to teach adults when I was
running my previous company Quest
Nutrition and I just had so many kids
that grew up in the inner cities 2% of
them changed their life forever 98%
though did nothing with the ideas was
crazy because they were blinded by their
frame of reference uh and potentially
just not having encountered enough of
these ideas early enough in their brain
development that that it just made it
harder for them later in life again
that's a poverty thing it doesn't have
anything to do with skin color right um
so anyway that to me seems the way out
you just have to be relentlessly focused
on nipping the problem in the bud which
as far as I can tell is poverty uh that
you need education that is going to
dramatically impact brain development
and then you have metrics all along the
way for for um early indicators of
future success verbal fluency reading
comprehension mathematics problem
solving how to be creative and address
novel problems so on and so forth um do
you think maybe that's impossible but do
you think if it were possible that that
would work or am I missing something
well so I don't know I can't speak to
Canada's results in um Jeffrey Canada's
results in in education but you know
assuming there they are as you say um
yeah obviously there's
there's there's a consequence to having
the right techniques and at the the
earliest possible level in education
versus the wrong ones um and we so we
want we want good teachers and we want
good methodologies and in so far as we
know how to implement all that we should
do it and we and I think
it's we should prioritize it at a level
that's far beyond what we do I mean it's
amazing that I mean being a a a primary
school teacher is a very low status job
compared to all the other jobs on offer
and it it it pays badly it attracts
people who couldn't I mean you know
you're not you're not choosing between
going into aerospace engineering or you
know teaching kindergarten right I mean
like that it's it's the educational
track that would get you there is
different it's just it it should be a
much higher value job what how we
educate our kids and
um we may we it's quite possible we
haven't figured out how you we certainly
haven't figured out how to use
technology so is to make that a better
process than you know I mean if Co
taught us anything you know just getting
more iPads into the system is not not
improving things
um and I'm amazed at how mediocre
education can seem even when it's the
best seemingly the best education you
know on offer you know like a private
school education um so much of it seems
seems to be just warehousing kids you
know it's like the the real problem
that's being solved is the parents have
to go to work every day we have to get
these kids up earlier in the day than
they can physio phys physiologically
they can even begin to pay attention
because the parents have to leave the
house at that hour you know to go to get
to work and so we have these blurry-eyed
kids getting warehoused in in you know
with nice laptops in you know PR private
schools that cost $50,000 a year um and
it's much worth obviously in in bad
Public Schools uh and yet even bad
Public Schools cost whatever it is
$177,000 a year per student in in
California I think something like that
um there's an insane you know level of
bureaucracy around it so there's a just
a a reaming out of the system we have to
do and a lot of change we need to make
to to do it but I agree with you that we
want to
prioritize the changes we can
effectively make I'm not I don't think
we can give up on on adults but we you
know in terms of how we weight the our
resources yeah I mean we you know if you
can radically change a person's life at
age six in a way that you absolutely
can't at age 16 well then yeah we need
to be driving toward the the earlier
interventions um and then we have to do
whatever we can do for for older kids
and adults uh because again
self-interest alone should make you want
to not have to confront the Stark chaos
and violence of of a totally
disregulated life right outside your
office or or you know the restaurant
you've you know gone to with your kids
or you know your home I I I just don't
think it works because the The
Compassion circuit is too easy to hijack
when you were talking earlier I took a
note that said they just have better
bumper stickers so compassion people on
the left like it's it's just way easier
to say that we need to take care of
these people and that you know think
about how much of the things that you
have if you grew up in a good family
middle class that yeah that really is
privilege and did you really do anything
to earn it and by the way neither of us
believe in Free Will so it's like really
really did I earn any of this no because
this is essentially Billard billiard
balls bouncing around uh however the
reason that I stay trying to push these
ideas out is that regardless of whether
Free Will exists or not we do respond to
encountering ideas I we're systems that
can be influenced at every stage exactly
all right on that note I actually owe
you a public apology so
uh you had come on my show so I had seen
the uh the trigonometry clip that you
did that went crazy viral and I watched
it and I was like okay hold on Sam is
somebody I respect tremendously I you're
one of of the most important parts of
the sensemaking apparatus I think
literally for the world certainly for me
uh and I'm seeing people again use memes
to just be like oh we don't have to pay
attention to Sam now to your point about
selfishly selfishly that's just from
where I'm standing that's a terrible
thing for the world uh so I wanted to go
in and really understand it and so I
came up with a breakdown of what I
thought you were saying and you and I
discussed it uh and then Constantine and
I discussed it and then uh much to my
dismay
you uh name Che both Constantin and I in
a later podcast where you like I'm no
longer going to try to uh explain myself
to people because people just cannot
understand me and you said look I think
Tom and Constantin are good guys I'm in
the Communication business full-time but
I've I've admitted that I can't I can't
uh correct someone's misperception of my
of what whatever they thought I said and
I'm no longer going to try yeah it's
it's a pretty uh forlorn position to
have arrived at but understand
obviously one I can't totally hold to
but but yeah I that was a moment of just
I mean it was It was kind of comic
despair because I realized that like I
had spoke spoken to both of you
independently for something like three
hours on that topic and still you were
you both seem to be converging on a what
I viewed as a misunderstanding of my
actual position I will not speak for
Constantin but I will speak for myself I
was a gast when I heard it because I
thought you were so wrong and I felt
that I had so come to your Aid giv like
the only plausible explanation that
there was for what had happened uh and
then I went in researching for this
episode uh rewatched all of it including
what I said and I I really was wrong uh
so I it's one of those when I went into
the research I was like there's no
Universe in which I don't understand
this uh so to be confronted with the
fact that I did get it wrong is utterly
fascinating so I want to um present now
what I think you were saying in that and
again it's not necessarily that I agree
and I touched on some of this earlier in
our interview about where I don't agree
uh in that I think it has a second order
consequence you may not notice or may
not care about I don't know but so
anyway here's the take from that clip
where a lot of people were just like
Trump derangement syndrome you can't be
trusted so for people that don't know it
was about the hunter Biden laptop and
you said more or less obviously a
paraphrase uh there's no corruption
you're going to find on that laptop that
is going to be more troubling than the
corruption that I already know that
Trump has right and given that the
laptop was a political game that was
being
delivered uh one needs to acknowledge
that and be willing to play an equally
effective you didn't say political game
but that felt like the undercurrent like
you you just have to meet that with um
and it was a coin tossup you're very
clear on that you're not sure what the
way to go was so you just thought better
to go slow now because there was a few
things you you started to say there's
nothing that could have been on and then
you stopped yourself but me and others
put that together with oh you were about
to say there's nothing that could have
been on that laptop combined with an ear
well in your defense I said that Biden
could have the corpses of children in
his basement exactly but it was clear a
joke and so but those things end up
getting conflated and then uh through it
all what I thought you were saying as I
sort of pars through it and thought okay
how could knowing that Sam is a
well-intentioned person what could he
have meant the first erone conclusion I
came to was you believed Trump was an
existential threat to the world now in
rewatching the clip you're very careful
you said Trump is an existential threat
to democracy not to the world so I
missed that right uh so that was part of
my thing and I was like okay Sam is
saying if he's an existential and again
I I was not speaking especially well on
on that podcast so I I said a few things
that were genuinely misleading so I use
like an asteroid hurdling toward Earth
analogy and that immediately puts people
in mind of okay I think Trump is an
existential threat to the life on this
planet right but I wasn't using that
analogy to make that point I was using
it to make the other point that we were
talking about cons conspiracies and
whether conspiracies are ever legitimate
and my point is if there's a asteroid
come hurling toward Earth yeah if you
people are going to conspire behind
closed doors to figure out what to do
about that that's we don't care about
cons not nothing intrinsically bad about
about people coordinating their efforts
in private to figure out how to solve an
emergency and so but again there was a
lot that was easily it that podcast was
so easil easy to clip to my disadvantage
but the truth is any podcast is this
podcast is I mean there there's no
question that someone can take out a
snippet of of something I've said in the
last you know two plus hours and make me
look like a racist who doesn't care
about inequality in our society and and
you know thinks whatever that you know
um I mean
just there's so there's so many bad
intentions adjacent
to an honest diagnosis of any specific
problem in our society I it's like it's
so easy to to look like you're getting
tipped over into someone who just
doesn't care about suffering in this
world I mean so anything said about
Islam or Gaza or or um race in America
or I mean it all is easily uh
caricatured or misunderstood and so it
is it's always a tight rope walk and I
you know I need I can be I can only be
as careful as I can be in talking about
it but in that case it sounded like to
to the the naive ear and that this clip
was engineered to produce that effect it
sounded like I was
saying you can throw all of your
commitment to honesty and and and and
integrity out the window because this
was a this was such an emergency it's is
you're justified in lying bearing
evidence you know throwing all your
journalistic Scruples out the window
ignoring real stories just to get the
the political outcome that I want I Sam
Harris want which is Trump not having a
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gifts now I think the harder part of all
this is that even I didn't respond to
the clip I had responded to the full
interview and even I took that away
doing what I consider pretty careful
analysis my my presentation first to the
world and then to you is my presentation
to the world is I think it is incredibly
important to steal man somebody's
argument when you don't agree with them
in a way that they would recognize and
so I steal man your argument really
believing I had found a path forward
where I could understand you because it
was you've been so useful in my life
thinking through difficult things that I
was very reticent to to say Trump trump
really broke your brain or whatever
right because then I'm I'm I start going
ooh like there's some major discounting
there uh and so I found it ended up
being wrong and I found that I was wrong
because I steal manned the argument in a
way you did not recognize and you gave
me I mean this is podcast sort of back
and forth we weren't doing it directly
but you gave me feedback that you did
not recognize
my steel Manning of your argum and so
then I went back and was like let me see
who's right and that has it's really
been a really positive Loop now part of
just my innate thing is I don't trust
myself to get things right very
skeptical of myself that just in the way
that people ought to be quote unquote
skeptical of the science uh I think it
just makes sense to always be looking
for is there really something here just
assume for now that it is my fault and
so in seeing that uh I would encourage
the world to always do that don't think
somebody your enemy think instead okay
can I say what they're saying in a way
that they would recognize and actually
get them to confirm that where you can
okay so that did me very well in this
argument now my request to you is
ironically all the stuff that I've been
belaboring in this um Talk is actually
more or less about Israel Palestine and
the reason is I feel completely ill
equipped to think think through the
problem other than through first
principles which will get me some of the
way uh but I feel equipped to Think
Through the problem of Israel Palestine
and I see people using a memed version
of things you've said to just be like uh
you're racist basically like anything
that they're conflating you saying um
that a tenant of radical Islam leads to
the holy war of jihad that's a problem
uh and so we'll get into that in a
second but because they're like I'll
watch people like I'll listen to your
podcast be like whoo these are
incredibly useful points and then I'll
see people do commentary on the same
podcast and they just loop around this
is racist racist racist I'm like whoa
whoa whoa whoa whoa and so because
they'll often bring up the that sequence
of people
misunderstanding I'm putting together
you saying I'm no longer going to care
if people understand I'm just going to
put my ideas out and then what comes
comes unfortunately what comes is that
um because it's impossible to detect all
the ways that somebody can misunderstand
something MH uh that your ideas will get
distorted more and more over time and
more and more people will just reject
somebody who's good at thinking through
these problems okay so um ultimately my
request there is hopefully you see by
pointing out that somebody
well-intentioned really didn't
understand you that they went and did
the work and now can represent your
thinking in a way that you recognize
yeah uh and yeah well I appreciate that
thank for sure and then now we can talk
about why I think that and I don't we
don't necessarily need to go into this
super deep we can just say we we agree
to disagree but I um
it what what I hope you take away from
this is merely that some people can be
reached so here is where I disagree with
the statement that you're making uh now
we're back to Hunter Bren laptop or or
Hunter bid laptop which which I will um
thumbnail sketch and please tell me if
this does not sound right I will
thumbnail sketch to what I said a moment
ago which is um you there wasn't going
to be anything on that laptop that
proves corruption beyond what you
already know Trump has Trump is an
existential threat to democracy Joe
Biden is not uh when somebody is using
political gamesmanship and I think this
is what you're referring to when you
talk about an out in the open conspiracy
you're not trying to hide that you
believe that Biden is the right person
to get elected and so you would never
lie that crosses a line for you you were
clear on that you said that um but that
given that this was time to cause
maximal dis disruption the response
should be in that context and so the
response should be either to slow roll
it or maybe someone like the New York
Times if they can really get their facts
together quickly enough coin toss maybe
they should debunk it they definitely
should not have silenced The Washington
Post New York Post whatever it was um so
Twitter yeah when you go back and look
at all those you really do lay those out
so now though even though I understand
all of that and it's a very nuanced
position and does not strike me as crazy
at all however it strikes me as not
advantageous in a world where the second
and third order consequences are it's
very hard to put all of that together to
parse it and because of that then people
meme it and they just go see this is
just evidence that there's nothing on
that laptop Sam doesn't even care Sam's
just a shill for the left uh and he's
broken on Trump and I think that you
could actually debate the points of is
Trump an existential threat to democracy
uh what would have needed to be on that
laptop where you're like oh [ __ ] Biden
is actually more corrupt than Trump and
then you can lay out why you think Trump
is corrupt where the line is for you
where if this thing had been like if Joe
Biden is taking bribes from this country
and this amount whatever I don't know
but if you give people that then they
can be like okay cool I get it because
the initial thesis of this episode is we
are falling into conspir land people's
desire for conspiracy their appetite
that's a better way to say it their
appetite and openness to conspiracy is
[ __ ] skyrocketing and if they don't
have the institutions and experts that
they can turn to I think all hell breaks
loose for the reasons that I outlined at
the beginning well so we we're in a
vicious Loop here
because we're a wash in in in
misinformation and
lies and I so our information landscape
is is just polluted with with toxic
waste and the problem is any effort to
clean that up certainly any effort that
the government exerts you know whether
it's through laws or just just through
encouragement right just talking from
the government talking to social media
companies like really be nice if you
stopped this particular you know bot
Army that is lying about you know
election fraud say um please would you
do that um anything like that and
anything that the technocrats do the
people who own the platforms to to to
dampen down to to bias the algorithm
against what they consider to be
misinformation all of that looks like
the orwellian confirmation of the worst
fears of conspiracy theorists right we
our own institutions look like the bad
guys we're being
gamed in Moment by Moment by by China
and Russia and Iran and who knows who
who else were being
you know our our our youth is is just
being just being preferentially
misinformed by Tik Tock and uh they
think to take the the one case that that
the IDF is guilty of genocide in Gaza
right um and that Meme spreads to the
ends of the Earth you've got billions of
people for the first time recognizing
how awful war is but this is this is a
moment for which they they they blame
the Jews for everything so you have you
got anti-Semitism skyrocketing any
attempt to to modify that
algorithmically
boosted
catastrophy is perceived as a conspiracy
and maybe a Jewish inspired conspiracy
if you're on this on this particular
topic and it's it just gets framed
as this is the real enemy or
authoritarian control of our you know
freedom of speech this is censor
censorship now we have to figure out how
to break that spell because we have a
misinformation problem we have a cyber
War problem we have you you know we we
are being gamed by by uh outside actors
that don't wish us well and it's not all
coming from Russia and China but they
what they are they're Fanning the Flames
of our own ambient partisanship and and
and noise and they don't they don't have
to do much work to do it right I mean
we're so at at each other's throats
politically that they just have to keep
touching us you know just keep keep
black lives mannering us over here and
keep you know you know Libs of Tik Tock
over here and we're you know we can't
recognize one another right and
[Music]
um
so we have to figure we have to
acknowledge that problem and we have to
get the people this is why I think
there's something especially culpable
about alternative media the space in
which you you and I Live
Now the appetite in in alternative media
most most of the time is for the
contrarian anti-establishment take on
everything right it's the you know in
the worst case it's the Alex Jones
ification of everything th this is this
is where Brett Weinstein I think has
been part of the problem he's he's been
captured by this you
know conspiratorial take on on on more
or less everything and um you know
whether the fault is him or the fault is
his audience or whether it's a Folly ad
do there it's it's it's a it's part it's
part of this problem and so we have to
figure out how to reboot from there
somehow
[Music]
um and then yeah I mean so I mean to
come back to the hunter Biden laptop
story for a moment it's just for for me
it was just it was very simple it was
not that I think Trump is an existential
risk to all of humanity or that he's
orange Hitler it's that here we had a
sitting president who would not commit
to a peaceful transfer of power that for
me was such a shocking violation of our
political norms and just like guard like
like the main guard rail on the
viability of our democracy right it's
like it's not even I'm not even sure
what to put before that I mean it's just
like it's like the rule of the rule of
law is the most important thing the
following the Constitution is the most
important thing but this particular law
right like that we're going to abide by
a legal election and transfer power
peacefully
is I maybe there's something in front of
it but it's you
know it
was it there there literally is no other
no other concern there's literally
nothing could be on that laptop that
would rise to the level of
superseding that concern right nothing
that you can imagine nothing that well
nothing that I think is remotely like
well I'm sure I could imagine something
I think for people to understand what
you're saying give them an example what
could have been on that laptop where
you'd be like okay now this is
admittedly
worse it would be hard because well I
mean it would have to be
a an a a a criminal intent on the on the
part of of Joe Biden I mean hunter Biden
is irrelevant to me really but it be
some criminal criminal culpability of of
of President Biden or not not not yet
President Biden you know candidate Biden
at that point
um that was as sedici to the the the the
the Norms of our democracy as not
committing to a peaceful transfer of
power right taking money from China
let's say yeah it's not it's not as bad
I mean it's it's bad it's awful I mean
and to my knowledge nothing like that
has been established on the basis of the
laptop but um I mean all of that would
be a and disqualifying but it's not as
disqualifying as being a sitting
president who will not commit to a
peaceful transfer of power I I just
think I think that's just an absolute
no-o Zone and it should be completely
discrediting to his candidacy now I mean
the fact that he is the Republican
candidate given that history and given
that we didn't have a peaceful transfer
of power given what happened on January
6th I mean as much as you want to
Discount that and say that some of that
was just you know liveaction role play
and and it wasn't really they to call
them insurrectionists is an exaggeration
price all of that in it was still we
still failed to have a peaceful transfer
of power for the first time in our
history and it was because of him it was
because of what he the the kind of of
populist lunacy he had consciously
stoked and he he had done it throughout
his entire presidency and he did it for
full nine months in the runup to the
election he was not committing to a
peaceful transfer of power he was he was
seeding the concern that the election
was going to be a fraud in advance and
so it was the most malicious use of
Presidential Power I had ever seen you
know directed against our own society
and our own Democratic norms and I think
it's it's yeah it's it's a 20 Megaton
political problem you know it's not it's
not the end of the world but it is it is
it is potentially the end of our
democracy I mean if we have a president
who will not leave and we have a
constant constitutional crisis that we
cannot solve if if Mike Pence and half a
dozen other people had behaved
differently on that day I don't know
where we would be right I mean like who
would have sent in the troops to get you
know Trump out of power when he's still
the president who's not giving up power
and calling the election a fraud and his
vice president isn't confirming the
electors right because he's he's created
a perfect personality cult under him we
were very close to that I mean it was
just it was a handful of Republicans who
still cared about the Constitution who
who kept us from blowing through the
last guard rails on our democracy um and
so all the Republicans who are
minimizing what happened on January 6th
I think are being you know completely
diluted and irresponsible and setting up
you know setting the stage for something
awful to happen in November I mean I you
know I don't know
uh it feels like half of our society is
poised to not accept the results of the
next election no matter how well-run it
it it might obviously be um and let me
just step back I think I think it's
disastrous that Biden is the candidate
from I mean I think it's it's just been
colossal malpractice on the part of the
Democrats to to leave us in this
position that we're running a a a
obviously Mor abund candidate you know
against you know
a a former president who show has showed
his commitment to violating our most
important political Norms there's one
piece there's one thing you said earlier
that I just want to close a loop on
because it's certain points are very
easy to knock down so like this
allegation that my criticism of Islam
has anything to do with racism is is
there's a it's absolutely easy to see
that that is a is a logical fallacy
first everything I say about Islam and
even everything I say about Muslims as
people which I'm never really talking
about I'm always talking about ideas and
their consequences but even if I was
just going to talk about Muslims as
people Islam is Muslims exist in in in a
hundred countries and and many of them
are white like me right it's like has
got nothing to do with race right like
and conversely I have said again and
again and again that I think some of the
most important people in the world and
the first people I would bring to the
front of the line for immigration in our
society are genuinely liberal Muslims
and secular Muslims and above all
ex-muslims right ex-muslims for me are
just like superheroes because they know
exactly what the problem is and so you
you find you take someone who was born
in Pakistan and who speaks uru take
someone who was born in Iran and speaks
farsy take someone who was born in Egypt
and speaks Arabic and they are exm
Muslims they are the there's no one I
want more in our society than those
people because we have a problem we have
to inoculate the Muslim Community
against religion I extremism and there's
nobody better to do that than the people
who know exactly how bad religious
extremism is and the ex-muslims know it
better than anyone have taken great
personal risks to to announce themselves
as having disavowed that
ideology if you hold those two
statements together you understand is
just it's it's logically impossible to
make the allegation of racism in
anything I say about at Islam it's just
not it's just it's a non sequer it's got
nothing to do with Ray yeah no that one
I will agree with I uh we may want to
come back to how it gets memeified I
don't know on that one though if it
matters but I do want to close the loop
on the laptop just by putting forth what
I know I can speak for myself this is
what I would want and I think that I
represent a lot of other people when I
say what I would have wanted from you in
that moment since I'm already I count
myself as one of the people that just
grows more cons spirator minded by the
day um and I look I'm trying to resist
that gravitational pull but when I
encounter you encountering that laptop I
want you to do the emergency podcast do
go live for 18 hours like whatever it
takes and go through and say Let's
Pretend because to your point doesn't
seem like anything just like absolutely
outrageous has ever been pinned down off
the laptop but let's say that it had
been and it was extraordinary but still
for you fell
uh the threshold of trump is going to
destroy democracy and just say here are
the things that he's done these are
absolutely horrible things this is
grossness management of the democratic
uh um uh caucus whatever it's called Uh
for party uh for making him the
candidate but the reality is I think
that this is way worse than anything
that you um the things that Trump is
doing namely that he's refusing to
peacefully transfer power that could be
the end of our democracy that to me
isn't just slightly more important than
this obviously horrible [ __ ] over here
uh and therefore I I just want to go
over and over and over this so that
everybody has the information that they
need and I trust you dear people of
these great United States to make the
decision for yourself but the thing is I
know you can't trust the people to make
that decision rationally and that's why
people twig out yeah but they're just
wrong I mean so listen I mean we we just
know there's just enough known about
cognitive bias
that we know
that I mean there's a there's something
called the ucer truth effect which
is even if you're repeating a story The
more you repeat a story even if you're
repeating it for the purpose of
debunking it the mere repetition effect
of it gets lodged in people's memory as
there was something TR something about
that story that was true right even if
even if it's a complete debunking right
so knowing that it's it's not you're not
serving the interest of the public by
saying listen I'm just you know
sunlight's the best disinfectant we're
just going to talk about it for four
hours on Joe Rogan's podcast in front of
40 million people um we're debunking it
but we know that I mean in this case
it's not going to be it's never going to
be a perfect debunking in fact there's
just going to be awful stuff there that
might be lured it's going to it could be
analogous to showing a picture of a dead
baby pulled out of rubble and and
knowing that this is so inflammatory
that literally 100% of people seeing it
will their gut reaction will be there is
no earthly justification for that ever
anything that produces that is evil
right oh the IDF produced that well the
IDF is evil right that is just a a the
human moral imagination in one of its
failure modes right like we know we are
psychologically ill equipped and I know
my audience or any audience is
psychologically ill equipped and I am
ill equipped if I'm a member of that
audience to process certain things in a
way so as to get the right
punchline especially when the clock is
ticking in the middle of what is you
know a kind of political emergency which
is again a sitting president who's not
committing to a peaceful transfer of
power and and you know we're talking
about a few percentage points right um
in the election and again we have the
example what happened to Hillary Clinton
the year before when James James Comey
said just at as an out of an abundance
of scrupulosity I'm going to just
revisit this whole email server concern
there's a lot of emails here you're not
going to be able to read them in time me
you know we've only got two weeks and
I'm G to hit you with 40,000 emails here
but let's talk about it it's I'm doing
just doing you know I'm I I just I trust
the American people to decide about
these emails that refer to Pizza Parlor
and and you know half of America is
going to think that this is code for pet
a pedophile you know rape cult all right
no I know that half of America is is is
predisposed to think that there could be
a pedophile rape cult in the basement of
a pizza parlor that doesn't have a
basement right I mean that's the country
we live in we have to be honest about
that I know that
and yes it's just it's just and again I
I when when I think it
matters I ignore every all of the
liabilities I just spoke about when like
I know
that some significant percentage of any
audience perhaps yours will hear half of
what I say about Islam and half of what
I say about race in America or half of
what I say on any other polarizing topic
and think okay that guy's a racist
[ __ ] or that guy's a you know uh a
neocon you know warmonger or whatever it
is
and I know they're going to miss the
point I know it's impossible to speak
carefully enough or at at full enough
you know comprehensively enough uh so as
to close every loophole that people want
to rush through to to malign you and
hate you and and and distort your
message and it's just you know so it
goes with the territory but I just think
you you H we have to be
aware that there there is
often a liability in just even having
the
conversation like like the the wrong
message is is is is going to be
delivered at scale
just because we're choosing to talk
about that topic at that moment and so
it's like the the first editorial
decision can be let's just wait on that
let's talk about that in a month right I
mean I've you know I've I've haven't
talked about the trans topic very much
just because I think it's while it seems
politically super important it's it it
affects a tiny number of people and
there's way too much brain damage that
comes with that topic it's just like
that it's you have a a a crazy level of
activism in proportion to the size of
the problem right and it's just not
worth it it's not worth it's not worth
weighing in on any side of it um I mean
I'm I'm comfortable with my attitude
toward it I you know I feel nothing but
compassion for people who have really
have gender dysphoria and I think you
know they should get all the help they
want and need and we should have
political equality for them and over
here at the extremes where it's
obviously social and contagion among
teenage girls and it has nothing to do
with a real you know condition um it's a
social problem that we should get our
hands on and all of the these weird
political ramifications where you've got
people who were men 15 minutes ago now
competing women's sports and winning
titles that you know belong to to to the
girls um that's completely dysfunctional
and obviously just rubbing people the
wrong way for reasons that are totally
understandable um and yet yet if you
really are a transgender athlete you
know we should figure out some way for
you to be athletic and uh you know it's
like without distorting everything
because there's only five of you in in
within within you know 500 miles and and
uh it's just there are trade-offs this
is a this is a situation where there are
tradeoffs and there's not going to be a
perfect solution but I have always felt
that I don't want to there's no reason
for me to be a person who
dedicates 10 podcasts to that topic
given the size of the problem and given
the which is small and given the level
of brain damage that comes at you when
you say anything like what I just said
for the last you know three minutes it's
it's just not worth it you got to pick
your battles yeah now I get that and I
think that your point about tradeoffs is
the right Point that's that's really
what I'm trying to drive home I think
that you I mean you're so consistent uh
in your position but I think you're
making a tradeoff on uh the way that you
approach you're talking about Hunter
Biden yeah where you say that um that's
why I honestly I really did say it was a
coin toss for me like I like I still did
like I still don't I don't have a
settled opinion on it it could be argued
either way and I know that there you
know journalists even at the New York
Times who disagree with me right yeah
but I'm just saying go back to the the
thing that I will zoom in on in this
exchange is uh there's a second order
consequence to you saying that we just
can't we know enough about the cognitive
biases of people at scale in this
country to know that they're not going
to look at a debunking of this and and
understand the argument that that's that
even if he is corrupt it's just not as
bad as breaking democracy and so I'm
being very consistent me Sam Harris I'm
being very consistent and this is what I
make the decision on people just aren't
going to hear that and when you say that
we can't trust them to make the decision
even if you're right because this goes
back to tradeoffs that like for instance
me in that situation I fully accept that
to and this is how my mind thinks of it
to
preserve the Integrity I want to feel
towards what I want democracy to be I
have to let democracy be jeopardized I
have to let it go all the way I have to
let this is just my take but it's not a
su democracy is not a suicide pact right
I mean it's like we don't you
you if you know you're jeopardizing
democracy you don't have a democratic
obligation to watch it go off clip
because so here's the from my frame of
reference which I fully recognize as
being that one that's totally distorted
but from my frame of reference it is a
subversion of democracy to keep
information from people because you
don't think they can make an educated
decision I get that it happens all time
you always have there's not there's an
infinite amount of potential information
you as the New York Times or you as a
podcaster or you as anyone can only get
a hold of so much of it you're always
making editorial decisions you're always
deciding like the New York Times today
has to decide well how much are we going
to talk Focus On the Border are we going
to publish another article about the
Border are we going to wait a week is
there anything new that it's all just
like SE to the
pants um intuitions of just like what
what is rising to the level of Interest
with Hunter Biden's laptop the way it
when it appeared how it appeared what
the Optics of its appearing it certainly
looked like it it should have been Russ
Russian misinformation I mean who why on
Earth would there be a laptop just
sitting in in a random computer store
that happened to be Hunter bidens right
um it just so that it was easy to see it
was all the biases against it being
legitimate seemed completely legitimate
and um we still just wasn't that much
there wasn't enough for a very
calculated reason we weren't given
enough time to really do due diligence
on it I mean I don't know how much
information was in there but it was just
thousands upon thousands of you know
emails and texts and documents um and
and that was that was engineered to be
that way right so I mean you you
just Rudy Giuliani was wearing his his
cynicism and Malice on his sleeve in how
this was presented it was just like like
I know this is only you've only got 10
days to figure this out and I know what
that there's just a blizzard of
weirdness in here and once you open this
box it's just going to be so lured and
we're going to be looking at naked
photos of of of crackhead Hunter and
um it's going to be massively
embarrassing and so salacious that it's
going to suck up all the oxygen right
it's all we're going to be talking about
do you really want a president whose son
is you know sniffing blow off of off of
a hooker and it's and it's
like we we know that we have a we know
that we have a society we know that we
have a Machinery of you know click-based
journalism that's not going to be able
to help itself from focusing on that and
we know that we have a society
wherein the the Optics are often
everything I mean it's like we know that
you know in a presidential debate it has
nothing to do with who's got the better
policies or who's more has can
demonstrate better knowledge of what's
actually happening in the world we know
that if one person is just more
charismatic and gets a few laughs that
person is going to win the debate for
90% of America right and so knowing that
it it sort of matters like what it's
just is is it even worth having it if
you have a malicious con man who's just
funny and charismatic which is basically
what we have in the in the in in the
person of
trump is a debate even a good idea it's
worth asking whether a debate is a good
I mean I I happen to think you know the
the fact that Biden wants to debate him
is just a sign of the desperation of the
Biden campaign but otherwise it's you
know it's probably a bad idea right you
know and um but this is not a this is
not a matter
of violating the Norms of Dem I mean
people can get what whatever information
they want
r no one's going to pass a law to say
that Rudy Giuliani couldn't leak Hunter
Biden's laptop Giuliani is not going to
get thrown in prison for this is not a
violation of anyone's Free Speech the
New York Times can just make the
editorial
decision we're just going to wait two
weeks on this we we just this is this is
just too much like Hillary's emails and
an October surprise we don't want to we
don't want to be be a part of this and
the truth is most again I I I thought it
was a it was a coin talk you know and I
know you know I've I've spoken to New
York Times journalists who don't agree
with me about it you know I think that's
fair my thing is I just want that all to
happen out in public which is where we
disconnect and I get that we just have
different base assumptions my base
assumption is that um the second order
consequence of people feeling like there
are people somewhere making a decision
about what they get to see because they
don't trust them to be able to make
these decisions creates this sense that
I live in conspiracy land and I think
that that is worse than uh another four
years of trump who was unable to subvert
democracy in his first four years so I
look at that and go yeah don't love that
that's my candidate however it again
this but what was worse what was worse
than another because what the only thing
that happened I mean the the thing that
happened that I think shouldn't have
happened was Twitter suspend did the New
York post's account but short of that if
Twitter hadn't done that and the New
York Post ran with the story but the New
York Times
didn't that's worse than than
having uh Trump win an election he
wasn't going to win but for the the
Airing of a of a la laptop story which
still seems like a non-story to me I
mean like I I still I mean I know there
are people who are deep in the weeds of
that laptop who think there's a lot a
lot of interesting stuff in there but
literally
nothing of real importance has has
emerged from that laptop and gotten into
my my I I this just comes down to how do
we read the the value of certain things
so for me the whole idea of the consent
of the governed that's super important
the idea that things that I'm not being
knowingly manipulated that once people
feel like they're being knowing
knowingly manipulated even though they
are and always have been but you're
always you're always being know it's not
a matter of knowing I mean that's one
that's one way to
describe an argument when you don't
agree with the argument but it but the
argument
was there's this
is this is a machine of very very likely
has all the all the appearance of a a a
machine of political
misinformation design partisan
misinformation designed to affect an
election
at the very moment the election's about
to be run right and the question is do
we collaborate naively with this or do
we just wait now it's not it's not to
say that we're never going to look at
this laptop it's just say that like do
we give Rudy Giuliani again who's like
the least scrupulous person on planet
Earth next to the person whose interest
he was trying to
serve do we give him everything he
wants when he wants it
when we know what his intentions are and
we have no reason to trust any
representation of the contents of this
thing being real like it it all takes
too much time to figure out
um or do we wait a Beat It just seems
way I mean given what again four years
before we saw what it looked like mean
literally that you know it it it looks
like Hillary would very likely at that
moment would have won the election but
for what Comey did my is because I can
now track your value system your base
assumptions what matters to you I
completely understand where you're
coming from I just have a different
value system around that second order
consequence of it it has made people
feel that they've got yet more evidence
that they're being manipulated by I
let's just call it Elites as just a
simple way but but but everything is a
manipulation at that level so I I get
somebody lying they're falling into
conspiracy land no but but everything is
like again everything is a choice and
and more information more accurate
information even isn't always better I
mean for instance don't do you think
that I don't understand what you're
saying because really if you like to
defeat my stance you would have to come
at me and say where you're going wrong
is being worried about people falling
into um conspiracy land it it is not
going to have the negative impact on
human flourishing which Tom you said is
what you want it's not going to have the
negative impact on human flourishing
that Trump getting back into office will
have and then it's like okay then we can
debate the Merit of that but every word
I say for me is Downstream of I believe
the second order consequence of making
people lose faith in their experts and
institutions is is creating so much
derangement I'm actually way more afraid
of that than I am the that we might get
four more years of trump because we
might again get four more years of trump
and honestly I'm not even sure if people
take RFK off the ballot I don't know
what the [ __ ] I'm going to do because
I've got one candidate that is obviously
in cognitive decline good luck
convincing me otherwise which means even
if I elect him he's not the one running
the country that freaks me out that
doesn't feel Democratic and then on the
other hand I have Trump
who like there's so many things there
that make me uncomfortable I don't even
know where to begin and so I feel like
okay now I'm left with these absolutely
horrendous options
and so all I focus on in this moment is
I don't trust myself to be the Arbiter
so that means that I this is just me
this is just how I see the world I don't
think that we can uh make that anyone
ought to make the decision even though
it is clearly a malicious thing that's
being done by them to very much try to
make sure that their candidate wins I I
see that with eyes wide open so October
surprise totally get what they're doing
it's a total manipulation but the only
thing with my worldview that I think is
a bigger mistake is to do a thing that
makes people lose more [ __ ] trust in
their institutions because to me that
moment feels exactly like the hey
everybody don't wear masks because they
don't work but by the way save them for
our Healthcare professionals it's just
like things like that make me go this is
all a big [ __ ] lie this is [ __ ]
crazy and so you're turning me a by
Nature rule follower into somebody who's
just pushing back against everything and
I think continuing to push people like
me farther into thinking everybody's
[ __ ] lying to them and being paranoid
and being like is this all a conspiracy
that is the more unwise yeah well so to
be clear I I I never thought that
Lon was part of the ethical response
like never lies the noble eye in my view
always backfires or or virtually always
backfires and I want to remind people
you've been very clear about that a th%
yeah so and it just it would entail no
line it would just entail uh it could
just it could just be you know we're
working on the story and right now I am
zoomed in on one comment that you made
which is you said knowing the cognitive
biases of people at large we cannot
simply present this combat it with logic
and expect that it won't influence well
well like here's another example that
just relevant for my personal life and
it's like so I'm I I put myself among
the people in this regard so if I have
to take a medication for some health
condition and I'm pretty and my doctor
recommends it my my doctor who I trust
re I found this doctor and I've settled
on this doctor because I trust him he
recommends it he's done it with all his
patients and it's important that I do it
right
um how much time am I going to spend
looking at the possible side effects am
I going to really get into the fine
print and am I going to go online and
and seek out the bulletin boards where
PE people for the last 10 years have
been complaining about how this drug
ruined their lives and
and I know that I know that
it's as scrupulously as you present that
that information it is so hard to appro
appropriately respond to it because in
certain cases depending on who you are
the mere idea of certain possible side
effects is enough to make you feel like
[ __ ] it's just I I'm I know I'm a bad
judge of probability and I know it's
only you know it's less than 1% of
people had this thing
but I'm going to feel so stupid if I'm
one of those people and it's just that's
it's like it's just not worth it so I'm
not going to take the drug right and I
understanding all of about
myself in many I mean some in certain
cases I you know obviously I I look at
what's what's possible but in other
cases I
think it's just not worth it like I
don't actually even need those facts and
if I start feeling worse taking the drug
well then then maybe I'll look at what
the side effects are but I don't
actually need to be I don't need to to
engineer the nobo effect for myself I
mean the placebo effect is a very real
thing and the nobo effect effect the
negative placebo effect is also a real
thing you know and and so for you tell
people listen this is this is this drug
is great but you know you might um you
know you might start feeling you know
weak and and uh nauseated and um you
know your workouts might not be as good
and you like and what percentage of
people are going to actually start
feeling that way and it's just pure no
sibo effect right it's going to be a
high percentage so knowing that about
the human mind it's totally rational to
say listen I'm going to bet on the fact
that if this if this drug got if we have
institutions that I can trust and this
why it's important to have institutions
we can trust if we have a drug approval
process that I can trust if we have an
FDA I can trust if I know that this was
this thing has been run I mean in in
certain cases you have you know tens of
millions of people who have taken this
drug before you right if I can trust
that if I can trust the clinical
experience of my doctor I'm going to I'm
going to use I'm going to Outsource
My momentto Moment intuitions about
whether I should be taking this drug to
all of that you know collective
intelligence and and place a bet that
I'm not one of these statistical
outliers whose head falls off when I
when I take this pill I'm someone who's
actually going to take it and it's
actually going to have its intended
effect which is to mitigate the illness
that I've been suffering that sent me to
the doctor in the first place and that's
totally rational now for some people
that might sound like okay you're just
you know you know that's the ostrich
strategy you're burying your head in the
sand
but the reality is is there there's a
consequence to being the sort of person
who goes down the rabbit hole and just
studies side effects and horror stories
for everything and and literally you can
do it for everything and it's you'd be
paralyzed if if you waited everything
with the same emotional
intensity um you would be paralyzed I
mean so you know something like 7,000
people die every year this used to be
the case I don't know if it's perhaps
the number has grown I think it was you
know the internet will correct me if I'm
wrong it was something like 7,000 people
die every year in America from
non-steroidal anti-inflammatories like
Advil you know
ibuprofen I take Advil all the time
right whenever I got I get migraine
headaches I take Advil Advil works right
it's
how much time should I spend thinking
that I know I know there's possible GI
problems with taking Advil Sam the the
analogy at least for me is very clear
but the thing I want to make sure that
we draw a straight line to is um given
that I think that that's a completely
rational way to do a lot of things in
life and all of us are going to make a
balance of okay am I just going to trust
the that big connective tissue blob of
things that have other people taking it
testing FDA all of it um and and just
just to finally close the loop on that I
mean just imagine the analog analogy of
me deciding to have you know a whole
series of podcasts on all the people who
have been killed by non-steroidal
anti-inflammatories and I and to
interview the the you know the the Widow
of the guy who just took to Advil the
first time he even took Advil and he
just died outright on a vacation you
know those people exist I'm sure right
and I could talk to them and I could I
could make this my hobby horse like we
7,000 people a year every year are dying
it's a to even one death is unacceptable
look at this kid that I'm from Gaza
that's unaccept we're we're worried
about 7,000 kids in Gaza who died
because of the IDF we're calling it a
genocide I'm telling you that 7,000
Americans are going to die from Advil
this year it's a this is an
unacknowledged genocide right be it
would be completely delusional use of my
time it's it's obviously I'm not tempted
to do it but so much of what we're doing
in alternative media is analogous to
that sort of thing you can you can
amplify the noise into some you know or
find some tiny signal that seems like
the most important one and and amplify
it and disregard all of the other noise
you're amplifying in the process and it
it just strikes me as as irresponsible I
hear that however we imagine you were
doing those podcasts and you were
uncovering true things where you really
have been lied to
sometimes by a small degree sometimes by
a horrendously large degree large degree
sometimes where you're like I could give
him the benefit of the doubt but other
times you're like this was just blatant
lying and you know the famous phrase
just because you're paranoid doesn't
mean they're not after you yeah and you
can flip that just because they're after
you doesn't mean you're not paranoid
like we keep finding out that we really
have a reason to be paranoid and so all
I'm saying saying in this is that there
is the second order consequence of
saying I know that there are these
cognitive biases I know that people will
fall for them and therefore they will
not make a wise decision and they will
reelect somebody that is uh a threat to
democracy potentially and it's a towing
cost I don't know what the right answer
here is I just know that Slow Rolling
going a beat is the right answer people
just start to pick up on like oh wait we
can't be trusted like wait a second what
do you mean and so it's it's that just
another in that case I mean the weai in
was also just on no one could be trusted
to do a good enough job to actually
present the final story in the time ofed
that's why it was an October surprise
that's why he didn't leak it six months
before elction of course I mean all of
this really does come down to what
tradeoff are people comfortable with um
I feel you've been very articulate I
feel you've also been amazingly clear
and consistent and so I feel now that I
have actually been able to map some your
worldview uh and while we disagree on
sort of what you put it on a bumper
sticker I'll be well that'll be H
actually I think we could get pretty
close to a bumper sticker which would be
uh let me really try given the
fallibility of the human
mind you must rely on Experts and
institutions
as a part of your sensemaking apparatus
it's a long bumper sticker uh and
failure to do so puts you at risk of um
catastrophic
error yeah I mean that's that's a point
we haven't made explicitly until now but
I certainly agree with it we just can't
there's no substitute for institutions
and institutional knowledge and it's
like we just if without them each of us
is forced to reinvent civilization on
his own every time he gets out of bed in
the morning
and that is what's happening essentially
it doesn't feel like that much work but
you're creating an N of one frame of
reference where you see a world that is
slightly different than the world the
next person sees slightly different than
the next than the next uh and certainly
the world of Independent Media is
generating that at scale social media is
generating that at scale uh to constant
tin's point though there's no putting
the toothpaste back in the bottle so
then it just becomes a question of how
do we deal with that and my solution and
your solution somewhat in practice
though I I have heard your very well
articulated disagreements mine is you
just have to put all the ideas even The
Crazy Ones if they have a sufficient
amount of popularity on the table and
debate the merits and then whatever
comes comes and that terrifies me
because I see us racing in a direction
that I think is just really horrible for
human flourishing but I just come back
to the world gets to be whatever the
world wants to be and if the world wants
to be majority uh Muslim then they're
going to get it it just is it's just a a
fact of the way that this all works and
so the only thing that you can do is
fight at the level of these are the
ideas that I believe in and I think that
the service that you do particularly
well is give people the language that
they need to grasp and convey ideas that
otherwise by themselves they might not
be able to think through and uh now me
pitching back to the world again uh is
what I hope they hear is even if there
are times where they don't agree with
you if they can map the base assumptions
that you have or the value system that
you have and go okay cool I see what he
believes and then I get why he takes
that there I don't share those beliefs
and so that's a part where I'm going to
say I can't um just Outsource to him
thinking through this one I either have
to do it myself or I'm going to work
with other people that may be align in
those values and that that's fine what
drives me absolutely [ __ ] crazy is
when people need everyone to see the
world exactly the way they see it and
they're not looking for tension and if
they looked for um things that countered
what they already believe and they
hungered for people that think
differently than they think and that
they find a wise path forward uh by
knowing where they're trying to end up
using data to tell if they're getting
there and then testing their ideas
against other people who actually
disagree with them I think they've got a
way better shot
yeah yeah well I agree there so thank
you for the conversation obscenely
generous with your time where can people
connect with you uh the making sense
podcast or the waking up app those are
the two places I'm spending most of my
time they are both brilliant and I spend
a ton of my time there as well all right
everybody if you haven't already be sure
to subscribe and until next time my
friends be legendary take care peace to
learn more about these complex topics
check out this episode with the one and
only Jordan Peterson look how much I
love my son he doesn't even have a penis
anymore those women online displaying
themselves they're not human you're a
fool if you think that's human and Jews
you know they have IQs that are probably
15 points higher than the typical so
they're radically