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Language: en
would you stay inside the headset if you
if you could you there were two paths
before you path number one is you
completely exit the headset and uh
inside the the game World the simulation
you your avatar Falls over and basically
appears Dead uh but you are now like out
chilling with the Consciousness or you
return to the Consciousness as maybe you
become aware of your Oneness with the
consciousness
that feels like the right way to sum up
the way you see it yes yeah I think that
that idea is is um can't be dismissed
out of hand I I think it's a very
interesting idea and I don't have a
better one right now so so yes it the it
feels to me like
[Music]
um I'm not my body my body is just an
avatar MH if if you're in virtual
reality you do feel that no I would well
I think that I'll say that
I'm very much attached to my body and if
something hurt my body I would I would
be panicked and so forth so so I I don't
feel like I'm not my body absolutely but
but when I'm you know thinking
intellectually and cooly about things if
something actually happens to me if I'm
in a car rck it's a different story but
but just thinking intellectually about
it and maybe if I meditated more I would
actually feel that way but but I don't
um but just
intellectually it seems
I don't know I'll have to I'll just
leave it that then yeah so I I asked
that part of it because what I'm really
trying to get to is if you could return
to Oneness with Consciousness or stay in
The Matrix but be like Neo where now you
know how to bend it to your will would I
which which would you
prefer well my my guess
is at
death we take off the
headset and and maybe we lose a lot of
stuff that was in the headset but we
don't but we're still aware we're but
we're we're just not tacked into the
headset
anymore um that's my my best guess uh
and so there I am completely open to
being wrong deeply wrong but you know
there are near-death experiences that
that may or may not point to that kind
of thing that that people have I'm going
to be doing being part of a um
I'm part of a film where they discuss
near-death experiences and so I talk
about that possibility in the film from
from this point of view um and and so so
if I were a physicalist it it's real
clear there you
know if the brain is somehow creating
Consciousness then when the brain is
dead there's no consciousness this other
view that says Consciousness creates
space time and brains as as just
headsets um has opened to it that um
my
Consciousness my un quotes the
Consciousness that's looking through
this
Avatar um does not perish when the
Avatar perishes that that's certainly
open to this point of view that's not
what motivated the point of view but it
but it certainly is um open to it so
intellectually I'm open to that point of
view
emotionally I fear death so even though
intellectually it seems quite reasonable
um I have the dark and fear of death
that's that's wired into me and may
that's part of the part of the game so
there's two buttons before you one
rejoin the conscious and let's say for
now that really is what happens so you
would maintain a sense of awareness but
all of your sense of self is gone
forever um or you stay in The Matrix
knowing that it's fake knowing that
you're in the headset but you have
special powers which button do you press
um I I would probably go for the new
stuff I would probably three dimensions
of space one dimension of time feels
quite confining to me I feel like we got
a cheap headset and then this is a
fairly cheap simulation that we're in
and I would love to see what else is on
offer for example when I'm trying to
solve these ma some mathematical
problems I can imagine a
three-dimensional shape but I can't
imagine a four-dimensional shape and we
had to do some of the problems we're
solving we have to look at the
geometries of things in six or nine or
more dimensions and we can't just sort
of imagine it and and figure out what's
going on we we have to crawl our way up
to the geometry by theorem proof theorem
proof we actually have to prove our way
one so we're like Blind Men filling the
elephant with theorems and proofs to
understand the geometry I would love to
have a headset where I could just see in
a glance everything about
nine-dimensional space and you can't do
that with our current headset and why
stop at nine Dimensions why not be able
to just see and 30 or a thousand or a
billion Dimensions do you though think
that inherent in the way that you think
about that it still requires you to be
you because I I'll think about this a
lot if you've ever seen the movie Freaky
Friday oh right right uh I think about
this a lot with my wife like I really
really want to change bodies with her
for 24 hours so that she can see what
it's like to be me and I can see what
it's like to be her I think I'd be a
much better husband if I really
understood probably so but the reality
is the second you change bodies I would
be her right and she would be me there
wouldn't be her as me me as her right
and so I my even if you're right here's
what I think would happen if you when
you take off the headset the headset is
everything you think of as you and that
even if you're right that you can
meditate your way to moments like that
where you're just pure awareness MH um
one if you're right all that that the
Consciousness lives to do is cycle
through other qualia so you would either
be reincarnated meaning that you would
just pop back up in a new headset
because that's what the Consciousness is
meant to do is cycle through all this
qualia and so you would R fragment
yourself back off you would pop up you'd
be reincarnated you'd live life again um
or you would return to the Borg The
Beehive the ant colony however you want
to think about it you would be
reinstantiate as just pure awareness and
all of that loving and clinging and
hating and attachment and Precious
Moments and distance and all that poof
gone and I find that when people explore
these ideas from a religious
perspective they are forgetting that
they're mired in the gruesome reality of
The Human Experience and that to
transcend that and be in heaven for
instance and never experience pain again
or whatever you would be so different
you wouldn't recognize or relate anybody
in the same way and so I have yet to
hear any Theory whatsoever other than um
regrowing your biological organs where
you actually end up cheating death
everything else is you die all of the
things you love poof go away maybe
you're Exchange changing them for
something better but make no mistake
everything goes
away
well these are deep Waters again but
here's here's another take on it and
that is
that if you and I are just the one
looking at itself through
avatars the one is learning whatever it
needs to learn through these avatars and
that's not lost on the one it is now
part of the one that that's in some
sense
Eternal and so the reason I would in
given the choice that you're asking me
to make here uh um my
own predilection would be to say let's
go for something entirely different now
because in some sense that that part
partly because I'm inquisitive and I
would like to what is it like to live in
a five-dimensional world what is it like
to have um 20 dimensions of color and
and a thousand dimensions of emotion
instead of just a few that we have what
what what is it like
um my my feeling is that we have the
training wheel set version right now of
this stuff really really small
um and and so my guess
is I I one possibility is that look you
and I really are this infinite
intelligence this infinite Consciousness
that's what we really are we're peering
through in this case very very simple
avatars with very very simple
interfaces and may maybe it's the one
saying this is fun but when I when I
answer your question this way maybe it's
the one saying yeah this is great and is
fun but but there's so much more to
explore and different dimensions I
haven't lost whatever I learned in this
little interface and I'm happy for the
relationships and the friends and and
all all you know and all the things I
learned about war and hate and and
religion
and and all that all that other stuff
you know all the things that go on here
um but that's only a
mere in some sense trivial projection of
this entire Canter's hierarchy of
Infinities of potential this is
Trivial and the potential is
mind-bogglingly infinite and so I've my
attitude let's get on with it we nothing
is lost by moving on and everything is
to be gained this my you can see but
again these are very very deep Waters
I'm not talking theorem and proof here
I'm I'm now speaking very intuitively
based
on the science as as it is and the very
um initial steps I should be very very
clear I mean all of science has been
about the SpaceTime interface until the
last 20 years or so we're taking our
very very first baby steps outside of
SpaceTime and so almost surely all of
the ideas that we're having are going to
look very naive you know a century or
two from now they'll look back and go
yeah great generation they were the
generation that stepped outside of the
SpaceTime interface hats off to them but
boy were their ideas so parochial they
they were shedding the interface but boy
they didn't really understand what they
were really doing that's my guess all
right I actually want to spend more time
in the intuitive but but is there
anything from the paper any sort of
grounded mathematics that you think will
um ground people in your theory more in
a way that will keep the intuitive
exploration from just spinning off into
La La Land well yeah so I'll just say in
the little paper I gave you and it'll
come out on June 24th it's going to be
made and I'll I'll tweet it when it com
if you made it this far in the interview
read the paper yeah so it'll be
available June 24th and I'll tweet it
when it um comes out it might be a
couple days before that I would say one
one of the interesting things we're
doing in that paper is we're showing how
specific properties of the Marco
dynamics of conscious agents ma to
specific properties of particles like
Mass spin momentum and
energy and so I'm not saying we're right
but we now have mathematically precise
proposals so I mean for these are words
that won't make sense but mass is the
entropy rate of recurrent communicating
classes of conscious agents and just to
be clear what you're saying you can
predict now is particle scattering this
is going to be for for particle
scattering and and by the way the reason
I'm going after particle scattering is
is not because I have some fetish for
you know high energy physics or
something like that it's that's the
simplest place that we can make our
first connections with the interface
particles are the most Elementary things
that our interface has that's why I'm
going there they're the simplest thing
I'm not going for brains first because
those are countless quad trillions
trillions whatever of of of of
particles and and so that's not the
place to start let's see if we can get
the mathematics and and the experimental
data for individual particles so so our
paper is proposing and maybe just so the
people can show that we're wrong we'll
see but we have you know we say that
mass is so-called entropy rate of the
recurrent communicating classes and that
has that then tells us what are massless
particles and what are massive particles
and and and so we're we're getting very
specific predictions that we're going to
be making about momentum and spin and
and energy and and mass so so that's why
uh so this is where rubber hits the road
right I'm talking all this High fluent
stuff about
Consciousness leading to the interface
well the right the right questions are
so what is the what is the mass of an
electron what part of your conation
Dynamics is going to map into what we
call Mass what is the spin um why why is
there um a hyperfine structure in the
energy levels of the orbitals of
electrons and so forth we're getting
hints at answers to those kinds of
questions about like the hyperfine
structure so it's it's it's really quite
interesting so so again I would be
stunned if we're right but at least
we're precise so that we can now begin
the the whole um process of of saying
okay at least these hypothesis
hypotheses are precise so now we can
Shide it
show their limits try to prove where
they reach their limits and then move on
or to show that you know this is just
fundamentally wrong-headed there's
nothing worthwhile maybe our definition
of mouse is just plain wrong we'll see
um but it's it's intriguing it's
intriguing enough that um I have a
particle physicist who put his name on
the paper with us doesn't mean it's
right doesn't mean that he's convinced
that we're right but we have a real
particle physicist who who thinks that
um it's it's if it's wrong it's not
obviously wrong and it's worth pushing
on right yeah I mean I I hope anybody
listening to this understands how the
scientific method works I am constantly
trying to tell my team hey you need to
be Fearless in the predictions that you
make because you shouldn't hold yourself
accountable to always being right you
should hold yourself accountable to
always learning and getting a little bit
better so the fact that you're willing
to make a precise prediction uh your
paper is full of uh mathematics and it's
there for anybody to check uh so people
will be able to help you find the edges
which is something I've heard you talk
about and I really respect about you is
that one you obviously approach
everything with humility but two you
actively want people to find the edges
of your hypothesis your theory so that
you know where it's wrong so you can
adjust and get more right Which is far
more interesting especially if you
sincerely want to understand what's
outside of that headset it's like well I
would rather realize I'm wrong right
find out how to get right so that I can
actually begin to explore that
possibility Space versus think I'm right
but really I'm wrong and nobody ever
helps me come to understand why um I I
really I really like that and I hope
everybody listening takes that on in
their own life I think that that's
really important okay so I wanted to to
make sure that you had a second to lay
out the grounding there that this is
something that you're seeing in particle
physics that there really is a there
there to pursue
um because the intuitive space for
somebody like me who's not a
mathematician who while I use the
scientific method in business I
definitely do not consider myself a
scientist but pursuing the intuitive
things pursuing the thought experiments
um feels true to Einstein's
encouragement to all of us lay people to
focus more on imagination than um
knowledge right to to really understand
how to begin to think through these
things so one of his famous thought
experiments was that in a falling
elevator you would feel like you were
weightless right and that ends up being
took him years but he ends up finally
putting that together with some other um
ideas that he had intuited including if
you're traveling at the speed of light
and you turn on the flashlight what
happens um and in that Spirit you said
something as you were describing the um
Consciousness and you as an
instantiation of that only to go back to
the one and you said well the one is
still learning what it needs to learn
and I am like a dog with a bone with
that idea what do you mean needs to
learn what like when I think about a
human it needs to learn things to stay
alive because it's been given these
Drives By Evolution but what has set up
the uh the the Consciousness that isn't
physical right right to me
anything my guess again we're we're
weighing over my head but might here we
are take you um the joy of
exploration just pre-programmed how it
is it's it's just yeah that that
the the
one is the only thing that there is but
it's
infinitely changing
infinitely the the is self- exloration
it's really infinite self- exploration
and looking and and and
enjoying and ever
expanding it's it's um understanding of
itself it's it's that would be my my so
you conceptualize it as still moving
towards
pleasure well that that that pleasure is
just in some
sense
um it's it's different than evolutionary
thing so so an evolution and I should
say also concretely why it's different
this dynamics of conscious agents does
not need to have an arrow of
time so
there's that's really interesting why
because that doesn't seem true okay the
the entropy one can write down a marvian
Dynamics in which the entropy does not
grow straightforward but it's a theorem
three line proof trivial trivial proof
that any projection of that Marco
dynamics that has no errow of time any
projection of it that loses information
Say by conditional probability it will
give you new Dynamics it'll be a
projected dynamics of the original
Dynamics and that new Dynamics will have
an arrow of time
because of the loss of information so
the arrow of time so here's my view our
experience right now of an arrow of time
and of the universe with a big bang and
and then maybe a big crunch or whatever
or entropy death at the end that whole
Arrow of time is not an Insight at all
into what lies Beyond SpaceTime it's an
artifact of the
projection and from an evolutionary
point of view right time is the
fundamental limited resource right if I
run out of time before I get to my next
meal if if it takes to much time to get
my next meal it's over if I if it takes
too much time to get my next drink of
water it's over for me time is my most
fundamental limited resource so that
limited
resource of time is not an insight into
reality that's an artifa of projection
from a Timeless conscious agent Dynamics
and that also suggests all the other
limited resources that's all artifacts
so evolution of natural selection is a
beautiful Theory but it's the theory of
all the artifacts that you see when you
do a projection from a realm in which
there are no limited resources there is
no competition
but what looks like evolution by natural
selection in this projection it looks
like there's an arrow of time so all of
our intuitions right now about learning
new stuff it it's going to be very hard
for us because our intuitions are deeply
shaped right now by our interface where
there's an entropy arrow and in this
realm
Beyond there is need not be an entropy
arrow and so wrapping our heads around
what it's like in in to to have the
notion of exploration
where there's no entropy Arrow now I'm
not saying I'm wrap my head around it
but I do know that the mathematics is
there that the con the the marov dyamics
does not have to have an arrow of time
in in the sense of an arrow of
increasing entropy so so and that's
again one of the points of
doing science with precise mathematics I
get emails quite often from people that
I think are are very very right and have
really good
ideas and they don't know how to take
them and make them
precise and as a result you can never
surprise
yourself you can never like like
Einstein when he had his idea about you
you mentioned the falling elevator and
so forth and and so he had that l in
1907 or something like that 1906 and it
wasn't he worked for years to take that
idea and make it mathematically precise
1915 and he he learned tons and tons of
what at the time was state-of-the-art
new fairly new
math it was hard for him sleepless
nights pulling his hair out really
working hard to take his good intuition
and turn so he finally wrote down in
mathematics in
1915 and a year later
um a guy named Schwarz Shield wrote back
to Einstein and said here's a a solution
to your
equations and that they predict what we
now call black holes
now
Einstein
didn't foresee that he didn't like it he
didn't believe it he disbelieved in
black holes he he wanted to get rid of
them so Einstein's theory came back and
surprised
him and that's why it's so important for
us to do science because what we do is
we take our best ideas that we have
right now and then we we make them
mathematically precise and then the
mathematics comes back and it slaps us
in the face and says here are the
implications of your of the ideas that
you started with implications that you
simply couldn't think deeply enough
about on your own but the mathematics
can take you where your own you know
just Consciousness wouldn't necessarily
go and so so here's one of those
directions with this notion of conscious
agents the Dynamics need not have
increasing
entropy and so our whole intuition about
an arrow of time need not hold in this
realm so when we talk about the notion
of explore Consciousness exploring for
the joy of
it we're going to have to rejig how we
think about the notion of for us
exploration is something that happens in
an arrow of time what is what does mean
for us can we wrap our heads around the
notion of exploration where we let go of
an increasing entropy kind of thing I'm
not I don't know if we can maybe you
just have to let go of this headset all
together to really get that but is it
possible while we're under the limits of
this headset to to wrap our minds around
we can at least get pointers to that
idea our mathematics led to this pointer
um and I would never even gone there
unless the mathematics took me there so
so that's so so I would say
that it's just like you know um the
amateur astronomer with a pair of
binoculars can could be brighter than
the guy with the James web Space
Telescope but he's never going to beat
the guy with the James web Space
Telescope because the guy's got better
tools and that's what science does for
you you may be smarter than Einstein but
if you don't actually put yourself using
the tools of mathematics and so forth
that genius will never actually flower
in the sense of reaching all the
potential implications of what it what
it means and so that's why um we we do
science the way we do it with
mathematical Precision because
for two reasons if our ideas are good we
probably don't understand all their
implications and so the math will come
back and it'll be our teacher and second
certainly our ideas have their limits
and it's hard for us to understand what
the limits are and in good cases the
mouth will come back and tell us what
those limits are so for example
Einstein's theory of gravity together
with Quantum field Theory tell us 10us
33 cm and SpaceTime is over is has no
operational meaning who could have
guessed could you have guessed could
Einstein have guessed oh yeah idea about
space time but at 10 to Theus 33 cm is
going to fall apart not even an Einstein
could guess that that that would only
come um through taking your ideas making
them doing the travail I mean Einstein
really it was a birthing process it was
very apparently very very
hard um to give birth to general
relativity and many mathematicians
working in physics and so forth say the
same thing you're working in the dark
it's hard you're you're struggling and
then all of a sudden if you're lucky you
get that breakthrough and and and you
see things but then it comes back and
you learn the limits of the basic
concepts that you started with and then
you reboot from a new set of
assumptions it's interesting that you
say about the set of assumptions so as
we explore this topic I realize that um
I think we still have we each have
slightly different assumptions though I
think that we're talking well about the
top IC but take the arrow of time for
instance so the thing that I find
fascinating about the hypothesis that
you put forward is for me anyway I don't
have the math to back it up this is
definitely land of intuition but what I
find fascinating is if you're correct
and it's just Consciousness is the
singular thing um it is for whatever
reason Joy need to pursue desire to
learn whatever it's running through all
of these qualia MH um and that the tool
it uses to do so is this headset there's
an infinite array of headsets but the
one we're in has learned that there's
only certain qualia that can be achieved
when there is an arrow of time and
that's why I'm saying when you first
said that I was like I don't know that
that's true meaning inside the headset
for at least certain types of qualia it
is clear in fact we we the only thing we
know is that the qualia that we have
access to
requires the arrow of time we presume
that there are infinite headsets that
provide just unimaginable unknown types
of qualia but the type that we have
directly experienced all require the
arrow of time that's right and that
that's we've been shaped basically by
our headset to to think that way and and
if I ask you to imagine a new color that
you've never seen before you can't do it
I mean again it's not because there
aren't I mean pigeons have four color
receptors presumably pigeons are
experiencing colors that that no human
has could even imagine and maybe the
mantis shrimp is seeing stuff that the
the pigeon can't you know and and then
the birds that see polarization of light
I mean they're seeing something that I I
I what is it like to see polarization of
light I I I don't know it it what is it
like to have infrared vision like
certain um Pit Vipers what is it like to
actually experience an electric field to
sense an electric field for some fish or
creatures underwater I mean I have no
what is it like to be a bat doing
echolocation I I I don't know I
literally have no idea so so these are
Pointers to me that's I mean in in the
headset we get all these hints of Realms
of qualia utterly outside anything that
I can concretely
imagine so talk to me about near-death
experiences and then I want to get into
um psychedelics and whether they
are simply another form of qual of what
it's like to be a human who's having
that experience or whether that's
actually melting the human away and
revealing something closer to being the
one again um but what can we learn from
near-death experiences do you think it's
a like a a sort of half return to the
one or is it just well that's what
happens in headset to the brain when you
deprive it of O oxygen well from a
physicalist framework clearly the latter
is the case right so from a physicalist
framework SpaceTime is fundamental and
Consciousness is a product of the brain
and so any experiences of transcendence
of things going beyond the headset um
have to be just the brain malfunctioning
in its final throws of death something
like that um but if SpaceTime is doomed
as the physicist tell us and it's not
fundamental then that leaves open the
possibility doesn't dictate that
near-death experiences are genuine
insights into
some conscious experiences that
transcends our SpaceTime interface you
can reboot your life your health even
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billion- doll business that will allow
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any of that is possible with the mindset
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today but it it certainly is is
compatible with that point of view and
so I think it's worth on on that
framework to explore the possibility um
that there are some insights and I would
take any of those reports like we take
any kind of eyewitness testimony right
with a grain of salt and you try to get
coroporation and and um and discounted
but but but on the other hand you don't
want to just ignore the data either
right so there's the the fine line to to
be open to get the insights but but not
to
um to jump on anything just because it
sort of fits your preconceived
conceptions most of our preconceived
conceptions are deeply wrong um we
thought the Earth was flat we thought
the Earth was the center of the
universe we thought space and time were
fundamental wrong wrong wrong wrong so
so you we're batting poorly so so
anything that even for if we think that
Consciousness Will
Survive death what we think about that
the way we think about it is probably
wrong and so what we we have to do is
again be so that's why I'm being when I
say we're in deep Waters here and I'm
being very very careful it's these are
things that my theory our Theory um
suggests but but I don't want to be at
all doire I think what we I should do is
make bold
proposals but they're just
proposals and the goal is to be precise
so we can figure out where the proposals
are wrong so so yeah so in that Spirit
yeah near-death experiences may have
some good data about transitions out of
this interface um in that in that Spirit
there commonalities of what people bring
back yeah there are there are some
commonalities um there's a lot of
reports of you know going through a
tunnel a light tunnel some like a re I
think Ray Moody or something like that
um is famous for for um categorizing a
lot of the similarities in in near-death
experiences uh a Life review and then of
course the reports we have are people
who came back so then they they came
back and so forth so so there are
um there are but but there are also some
that report you know horrific you it's
just not all not all reports are are are
great
so um someone that that we know
personally had a a near death experience
and was very very um pleasurable and
came back and has no fear of she claims
to have no fear of death now um
um so I so I don't know so yeah uh we be
part of the film that's exploring these
near-death experiences there it's put
out um
the the I think it's the lone Medical
Center in in New York there there are
some
cardiologists who are you know they they
work with patients who die but with with
new Cardiology techniques they can keep
the heart and the body in from
deteriorating for quite a long time now
you know an hour or something or maybe
longer and then they can bring these
people back and so this film is partly a
directed by a cardiologist or who who
was seeing so many of these experiences
that that he wanted to document what
he's seeing in the ER you know and and
um again you know I'm not going to be
doctrinaire about it but I think it's
data that that shouldn't be ignored and
how we should interpret it we should be
very careful so if that stuff is real
the prediction that that seems to make
is that not only is there a sense of
Consciousness that remains but that
there is is sensory
perception that holds out for quite a
while cuz at least from the things I've
heard people come back with a sense of
either it's peaceful or whatever but
that means that they were able to
experience that and retain it that's
right that's right yeah this quite
fascinating yeah that again this is
exactly the right scientific way to
think about that that's this is data
Maybe if it is Data what does it entail
about um letting of the headset and and
what kind of experience we might exp
have afterwards and is that just a
transitional thing or is it more
permanent and so forth if you have what
I call the only belief that matters that
you can if you put time and energy into
getting better at something you actually
will get better right if you believe
that then you'll pursue Improvement if
you don't believe that then you won't
because it wouldn't make any sense right
so you miss out on Fitness payoffs based
on your cognitive assessment of how the
world works right so all of that
fascinating okay absolutely and
important to understand where my brain
breaks with your thesis is how
different what you perceive is and what
the world is like and I know and this is
where it gets hard because I think you
would say we don't know what's under
SpaceTime right but what's your best
guess like as we strip away this layer
and this might be the time to talk about
Consciousness but I don't want to lead
the witness what what do you if it isn't
SpaceTime stab in the dark for me what
the hell is it well I'll tell you what
the physicists are doing on this because
the physicists are the ones who are
saying SpaceTime is not fundamental so
it's there it's a pointer it's a
representation it's a data structure
it's a data structure to something
deeper that's right but it's it happens
to be the human brain which is already a
data structure you're already making
that up exactly right but that data
structure
represents things through SpaceTime
exactly right that's our headset
SpaceTime is just our headset and it
only goes down to is that the plank
length I always hear you quote a a a
size plank length is 10us 33 C that is
what you're quoting right exactly that's
the smallest thing that we can measure
yeah that's the smallest thing that's
the smallest scale at which SpaceTime
has any operational meaning if you try
to go smaller space time ceases to make
any operational sense at all because
gravity insists that below that things
have condensed to too fine of a point it
becomes a black hole exactly right you
you create a black hole okay so so and
if you think about it and we know that
isn't true like why can't that just be
true smaller than that is a black hole
yay yeah well we know it's we know that
at the plank scale you you um SpaceTime
stops and you get you you get black
holes so what's the problem well black
Hol is a singularity it means we don't
know what's happening so you get
Infinities popping up um but black holes
are real right they're they're real as a
data structure they're they're they're
real stopping points in our
understanding but they're in the
universe well they're
um I know this gets complicated the
universe is a representation oh yeah so
and so I want to start and others have
been studying the properties of black
holes right Penrose won the Nobel Prize
very recently for his his wonderful work
on black holes and so there's a lot of
work that's being done to understand the
properties of black holes for example
the amount of information you can store
in a black hole doesn't depend on its
volume only the surface area yeah I
don't understand that yeah right right
this is this very very strange but that
turns out to be true in everyday space
the amount of information that you can
store in this volume here is not
dependent on the volume it depends on
the surface the surface area that's the
universe we live on it's it's so that's
LED people to this holographic kind of
idea oh every word out of your mouth I'm
like we actually are in a simulation we
haven't even talked about the non local
things are not locally real right we'll
get to that because that's the new Nobel
Prize this year which is insane and
literally just says you're in a
simulation and it's the same as
rendering and when you look at something
it renders when you look away it it
doesn't and we can prove it
mathematically yeah that's right way too
fascinating we'll get to that but first
I want to understand understand like
black
holes the word real gets very slippery
in this conversation but black holes are
observable yes we consistent right so so
the idea is that the notion of SpaceTime
at like instead of 10 to- 33 cm say 10
Theus 40 cm what would that mean it does
it has no meaning it has there's nothing
you can do with it so so black holes are
fine there there there objects there
that are at the end point of what
SpaceTime can do but if we say but I
SpaceTime was fundamental that means I
should be able to talk about what's
happening at 10 Theus 50 cm and 10 and
you just cannot there's no operational
meaning and in that sense so you're
saying whatever is fundamental will be
able to tell you exactly what's
happening inside of a black hole well or
or it will tell you that this whole
framework in which black holes appear is
the wrong framework and thusly black
holes are just a data structure for
something else that is describable once
you get outside of once you get out of
space and and you know it's hard for us
to think outside of SpaceTime like yeah
can we can we beat this point to death
for a second because this one was a a
breakthrough for me when I realized I
always thought of the plank plonk length
as like so infantes small that like we
should all be in awe and you're like
like that SpaceTime breaks down that
early is just ridiculous and I was like
okay that's a different frame of
reference yeah it's it's a very shallow
data structure if it was 10us 33
trillion CM that it broke down I'd be
I'd be impressed 10us 33 we got cheated
this is a really shallow data struct
it's only four dimensions I can't even
imagine something in five Dimensions I
can't even imagine a new color that I've
never seen before so so we've been given
this really we think that we're in many
cases we think we're the epitome of
intelligence and the the smartest thing
in the universe my my feeling
is we've been short changed really
shallow today structure only three
dimensions of space one dimension of
time we got a cheap headset and so when
that's a fun way to say it when data
breaks down like that right what so uh I
always forget the guy's name so I wrote
it down but Nema arani Hamed right right
so I've heard you talk about him a lot
so I started doing some research on him
and if I'm understanding what he's
saying correctly is basically when you
have a data structure that falls apart
that early right which was again a total
reframe for me because I thought of that
as like oh my God uh but apparently when
you understand this better you realize
that's that's a pretty early tap out so
when a data structure falls apart that
early that that tells you that it's
proximal right which I'm interpreting as
a it's the finger pointing at the Moon
it is not the moon itself exactly and so
now you know you're looking at a pointer
and so that seems to be the thing that
his whole case rests on for uh SpaceTime
being doomed that if your data structure
Falls apart that early you know there's
no way this is the fundamental thing
that's one of the big pointers the other
big pointer a couple other big pointers
he gives is that when you let go of
SpaceTime and you start Computing
particle interactions like two gluons
hit each other and four gluons go
spraying out the kind of thing that
happens at the Large Hadron Collider all
the time if you compute it inside of
SpaceTime that one I mentioned two
gluons in four gluons out hundreds of
pages of algebra for one interaction
why is it so complicated because it's
the wrong data structure it's an ugly
nasty data structure and the thing that
you're doing the algebra on is in what
way they scatter inside SpaceTime you
have to do to make all the math work out
you have to have these Fineman diagrams
with virtual particles people are trying
to they're trying to say okay a Theory
of Everything which you were saying does
not exist and will never exist but we'll
get to that later right uh so if there
were a Theory of Everything though we
should be able to know everything so
finely that I can tell you oh if they
Collide at this energy with this
directionality it will scatter exactly
like this yeah with these probabilities
you you have probabilities of their of
their scattering okay and so they're
just like oh my God it's a dizzying
amount of math that's right you until
until you let go of SpaceTime and then
that one that I mentioned two gluons in
four gluons out it's one term you can
compute it by hand it's like when they
hit they'll be a diamond yeah well
because you need to start talking in
shapes right well yeah so so so it's a
shape Beyond SpaceTime whose volumes so
yeah it's a shape outside of SpaceTime
outside of our headset and the volumes
of this shape actually tell you the
probabilities of the various kinds of
particle interactions okay so and so it
turns billions of terms into a handful
of terms and it shows you new symmetries
that's what the physicists really love
it's it's simpler math which is great
and then all of a sudden you see new
symmetries that you can't see in
SpaceTime okay I'm going to try to draw
an analogy which is already going to
break things but let me see how close I
get you're in Grand Theft Auto right you
step on the gas and you go forward and
we're just like oh my go the math to
predict in what way the car is going to
move when you step on the gas pedal is
ridiculous mhm but if we were to be
actually looking at the electrical
pattern that's stepping on the gas which
would be pressing buttons on your
controller uh in a certain context if we
understood that there's a pattern
outside of the headset so in the the
PlayStation or the Xbox there's an
electrical pattern inside of that that
looks so if you no chess and I don't but
I'm familiar with the the idea of
chunking so apparently what Chess
Masters do is they're not looking at the
individual pieces on the board they just
know the patterns so they're like oh
that image of where the piece pieces are
in this order that's this setup so
they've chunked the whole board into
like oh I know where we're at in the
game and I know what the right next move
is so basically what you're saying is
you step on the gas and it gives you an
image of a shape of electrical patterns
outside of the headset if that's what
you're saying I at least understand I I
don't I could not give you the math or
any of that but I get like this repr
representation this data structure which
you think of as being real stepping on
the gas and the red Porsche goes is
actually
this chunk of electrical impulses if we
think of it as a shape or a pattern or a
rhythm or however we're going to think
of it is that what we're saying that
that could be a helpful metaphor and
I've got another metaphor that may also
try to help people on because that's an
important point that you're raising so
suppose here here's another way to think
about this suppose that I'm looking at a
video and I seeing all these pixels and
the pixels are moving in really
complicated ways you know there's red
pixels and green pixels and light pixels
and dark and I'm just and and I I know
that there's something interesting going
on and so I write down all these
equations for the Motions of these P
pixels and but but someone says you know
what there is just this I've got this
little um Rubik's Cube and I'm all I'm
doing is rotating a Rubik's
Cube and but but you're only seeing the
pixel projection of if you just could
see this 3D object you would realize how
simple it is but when you only see the
pixels and see all the then it's oh man
I got to I've got to model all the
pixels moving in my screen how do I do
that well if you can just let go of the
screen behind it there's this unified
geometric object the Rubik's Cube and if
you can just see oh it just rotates
rigidly that's and that rigid rotation
is the only motion I need it's a
rotation here I have to look at all the
pixels and this pixel I'm paying
attention to the dots rather than the
shape SpaceTime is paying attention to
the dots right so in space time we're
we're stuck on the video screen and
we're trying to model all the pixels
moving around the video screen and what
the physicists have said if you let go
of the video screen take it off you see
that these geometric objects like that
Rubik Cube are outside of it and their
structure is much simpler I'm not saying
simple but much much simpler
but it when it projects into this really
see you you lost information in the
projection right that's why you have all
these little pixels you have a 3D object
here a two-dimensional screen so you Lo
so now it looks really complicated so
what's happening then when these things
Collide they're making a new Rubik's
Cube so or they're just rotating a shape
that's already there this is where I
have no way to Anchor myself well
so particles are things inside Space
time right yes so so when we look at
particle interactions at the large hron
collider we're looking at the pixels the
Motions of the pixels inside SpaceTime
the amplitud hedrin and other structures
that they're finding okay amplitud
hedron is something you say so fast I've
heard you say this a gazillion times but
I had to look it up right so an amplitud
hedrin is a shape yes uh geometric shape
right in how many dimensions um
they can be in small numbers Dimensions
but they can go to Infinity so there's
there's different kinds of amp different
size of amplitude heeder depending on
how many particles you want to interact
and that's our Rubik's Cube that would
be the Rubik's Cube beyond the headset
yep and by the way um this is brand new
this was published in 2013 this is not
even 10 years old so this is this is all
new stuff um this amplitud hedrin so
it's no surprise that people haven't
heard of it and and many physicists um
haven't heard of it truly truly
remarkable the quantum theorist in fact
I and so how what makes people think the
amplitud hedrin is actually real that we
have detected the shape outside of the
headset well I
think that the really brilliant
physicists would not say we're done they
would say we've taken a first step
outside of the headset of
SpaceTime and one of the first
structures we found is the amplitude
hedum that doesn't mean it's going to be
the final answer they're looking at
other structures something called the
cosmological polytope and surface hedra
and and so forth cosmological polytrope
polytope polytop po what is that is
another geometric shape it's another
geometric shape that Nima AR Hamed Juan
Mala and and others um a lot of the work
has been done at the institute for
advanced study and collaborators with
the people there and this is trying see
the amplitud hedrin is primarily for um
flat SpaceTime
understanding so without gravity but
when you deal with gravity and and
Einstein told us that sort of curve
SpaceTime then it's then things get a
little more complicated and in that case
um I think they're looking at the
cosmological polytope for more um like
cosmological kinds of predictions so the
amplitud hedrin so and and I'm sure that
they're saying that they're not saying
that cosmological polytope is the final
word what's really interesting is
they've already taken a Step Beyond the
amplitud hedum so there's something
called meaning even that they don't
think is fundamental or just that it's
part of the fundamental they they think
it's an important step outside of
SpaceTime but what surprises the
physicist is that the heart of the
amplitud hedrin is something called a
permutation a kind of permutation called
a decorated permutation it's like
shuffling cards permuting cards so it's
it's a surpris that that if you let go
of SpaceTime Things become simple you
get this sampl to hedrin the math become
simple and then when you look at the
amplitud hedrin ask about his essential
character you find out that behind the
amplitud hedrin are is just permutations
decorated permutations shuffling cards
kind of thing and so we're at this
position so this is only you know in the
last couple decades right that this has
happened the amplitud hedrin is 2013 so
it's only 9 years
old so here we're at this really
interesting position in in science in
physics I like to think of it like the
movie 2001 of space arst M remember the
scene a great movie yeah and and there's
a scene where there's the
monolith it's just sitting there
pregnant with meaning and the apes are
looking at it they're afraid of it
they're beating on it they don't know
what to do with it they you get the
sense that they know it's important but
they haven't a clue what it's pointing
to that's where we are the amplitud
hedrin and the decorated permutations
are these monoliths outside of SpaceTime
there s there's no dynamic
who ordered this monolith the amplitud
hin just sitting outside of SpaceTime it
it captures all these amplitudes all the
particle amplitudes it captures the
structure of SpaceTime Einstein's
special relativity Quantum unit quantum
theory and it's so-called unitarity of
quantum theory so this is deeper this
thing is deeper than SpaceTime it's
deeper than quantum theory quantum
theory itself is not deep enough this
structure the amplitud hedrin this
monolith is beyond quantum theory but it
codes for quantum theory as a projection
in SpaceTime so who ordered this like
just in 2001 Space Hy the Apes you can
imagine what is this where did it come
from why what what's it going on we
don't know I can imagine me asking that
yeah well everybody's asking it right
now you know who it's just a static
structure physicist like Dynamics we
want something we want to have equations
of motion
we don't have that we just have here's
the geometry and here's behind it this
permutation they're just sitting there
who ordered that and why so that's where
so but the attitude is not one of um
despair this is really for the young
Geniuses who are doing this stuff this
is like fabulous right we're the first
generation that not me but the young
physic the first generation that really
gets to step outside of the headset of
SpaceTime they've already found
these monoliths the amplitud hedrin
decortive permutations and just to
really make that simplistic shapes
shapes and then the shuffling of the
shapes that's right some shuffling that
codes for the shapes there's a shuffling
shuffling that when you say codes for
the shapes captures all it captures
their essential structure in some sense
even the geometry the volumes and so
forth are redundant there's this even
simpler more
compressed um description right now the
decorated permutation is the most
compressed description that doesn't have
any extra bells and whistles the
amplitud hedrin in some
sense the positive grass monum that that
use that they used to build it and so
forth they have extra bells and whistles
in some sense the amplitud hedrin boils
it down to its Essence but but the so
it's shuffles permutations and and the
big question is
why why why this I mean if if you in the
beginning God said why would God say
that what what what is so let there be
shapes let there be the amplitude heater
Let There Be shuffles that doesn't seem
quit