Kind: captions
Language: en
now this is an interesting you know
Insight that that we we can take back to
ancient times but St Thomas aquinus in
1265 writes his Suma theologica this
seminal text of Western philosophy you
know forget the just the theology just
Western philosophy and in it he talks
about this very interesting thing he
says that that man mankind humankind
we'd say today has four Idols you pursue
everybody pursues one or more of four
idols and he calls them the substitutes
for God because his supposition is that
that we all want God but God is
extremely inconvenient a lot of
one-sided conversations and a ton of
rules so we look for substitutes that
have kind of these Divine
characteristics the problem is they're
180 degrees off God they are money power
pleasure and fame fame he says honor
which is has different connotations you
have a son who's a marine who serves
With Honor that's not what we mean we're
talking about admiration EnV the uh of
other people of you which is which is
people want that or or just Prestige or
maybe Fame you know some people actually
want to be famous but let's just call it
money power pleasure and fame everybody
you know I play this game what's my idol
and I'll ask people not what's your
actual Idol but what is not your idol
you know of these four money power
pleasure Fame what's the one that least
attracts you that you could get rid of
with total impunity you don't care and
then we'll we'll start eliminating and
we're gonna find your idol is the whole
thing now the interesting thing about
that is that what he says is not that
you'll go to hell if you do that he says
you'll be unhappy if you don't recognize
the idol if you don't recognize the
idols in your life the trouble is the
lyic system of your brain Mother Nature
that Tyrant tells you that you'll
actually be happy if you get your idol
as you chase it and you chase it you
can't quite figure out what you're going
to do if you get it like Tom's going to
get you know hundreds of millions of
billions of dollars what are you going
to do with that money that you would
actually like and you can't quite figure
out well yeah cuz if you if you
articulate it you know if I say you'll
buy a yacht and you're like I don't that
sounds like kind of a hassle to have a
yacht maybe it sounds good but not that
good right the real reason you want that
is because you want admiration because
you want the the validation of what it
represents of you to you you want to
this transference of social comparison
you've always done with other people you
want to actually feel the thing that you
felt for others about yourself that's
what the idol do that's the nasty
Switcheroo that's the that's the
despotism of this of of of mistaking the
intrinsic good for the instrumentality
that's why Thomas aquinus was so astute
in what he was talking about here so
when we play this game and we we we see
what is actually holding us back and you
experience this absolutely you were
chasing the thing chasing the thing and
chasing the thing getting more and more
and more miserable because you're
actually getting closer and closer to
your idol and realizing it will not
realize one single thing that you needed
for your own happiness it had no
intrinsic worth look there's the
anything thing about money by the way
the research on money is very clear that
it doesn't actually ever bring happiness
it lowers unhappiness which are
processed in different hemispheres of
the of the brain happiness and
unhappiness are not opposites they're
not they're different experiences and
what happens is at low levels money will
lower unhappiness so when I could
finally go to the dentist I felt better
the trouble is I don't know how to do
the sums inside my brain I just knew I
felt better and we always mistake lower
unhappiness for higher happiness and so
early on you're like well I went from
from you know $155,000 to $20,000 a year
and I felt better I actually felt better
about myself I was able to to eliminate
some of these sources of of you know
misery so I'm happier and so you get
into the pattern early on you wire your
brain when you're a young person working
your way up the ladder more money feel
better that means more happiness and you
realize that going from $250 $300,000 is
not doing it that because it's not big
enough jump apparently so you go and you
go and you go and you go and you go and
you're basically just chasing a lure
that's what you experienced and that's
why you're were miserable right because
you couldn't get there from here it's
interesting yes I put different words to
it and I'm curious to see what you think
about this so I think about it from an
evolutionary standpoint so we have
directives in our brain that there is
going to be a sense of disease if you
don't do certain things I think that
deep and profound unhappiness can come
from pursuing the wrong thing so that
you're spending your time doing things
that just they rob you of energy instead
of giving you energy but I also think
that people end up profoundly unhappy by
not doing things that nature wants them
to do right and I think one of the
things that nature wants us to do and so
just not doing it will be a problem is
work really hard to turn your potential
into skill set yeah and so if things
come easily to you even though you're on
top of the world and everybody else
admires you and wants to be you that
there will be a sense of disase for you
because you're not working hard it
doesn't feel meritorious yeah Nature has
to find a proxy right so nature wants
you to have children so it makes sure
that sex is intensely pleasurable but
that's really just a proxy for have kids
so that I find really interesting that
that nature is working in these weird
proxies so people end up like you think
you're supposed to do one thing chase
money power Fame whatever you're like
why does this suck but all of those
things actually do have utility and so
the thing with money is people are
always going to pursue it the thing with
Fame is people are always going to
pursue it why because it actually has
utility so money for instance is more
powerful than people think not less but
it isn't what you've been told so it's
never what myself and everyone else
included is trying to do is feel better
about themselves right it won't help
with that it cannot touch your
self-esteem and that's like the biggest
like mind [ __ ] ever your wife won't love
you
more your children won't respect you
more when you have more money exactly
more troubling you won't respect you
more yes which is ultimately the cuz
other people will like people treat me
differently because I have some micro
Fame and because that's actually
troubling too because when you know
somebody's instrumentalizing you when
you know somebody's objectifying you
because of this outside characteristic
it makes you profoundly uncomfortable
it's interesting people hate that you
know it's the one thing where we will
allow people to object ify us you're
welln you're successful and people will
be nice to you because of that and deep
down you know that they they they don't
love you and it's not how it plays out
in my head how does it play out in your
head that I have no ability to be
vulnerable around them oh I see for sure
but that's the same part of self that's
the same part of objectification you and
and if when you're objectified you can't
be a full person there's another
interesting thing that might actually
apply you're a creative you're
fundamentally a creative when you were
doing your work you were thrown off the
creative process now why is creativity
intensely pleasurable you get you've
read the work of mikai chent Mii the
great social psychologist who wrote a
book a very famous book called flow f l
w flow and what it talks about is how
minutes how hours turn to minutes of
sheer pleasure when you're in this Flow
State when you're doing something that
you can Master you you can it's not too
easy it it requires your ability but you
can Master it because of your skill
skill and you can get into this groove
creatives must create if creatives are
not creating they will be miserable
because they can't attain a flow State
it's very possible Tom that when you
were in this part of your career you
needed to create what you wanted to quit
and go to Greece to do creation you were
basically craving that it's like you had
no protein in your diet for a year or
something it's like I don't know I just
can't stop thinking about peanut butter
well cuz you were create you were you
were you were craving this macronutrient
in your psyche and and you were never
getting a Flow State and if you're
denied the flow state that uniquely
comes to you through creativity you're
going to you're going to be practically
suicidal yeah it was it was definitely a
rough period that's interesting I've
never thought about it as being
intrinsically a reflection of the
pleasurability of flow but you might be
right it's just I feel I feel alive that
is the right word I feel alive when I'm
creating I never happier than what I'm
creating it's amazing people who are
fundamentally creatives look same thing
you know when I retired as a CEO and I
came back back to writing speaking and
teaching um I'm a new man I'm a new man
for the past 3 years it's extraordinary
you said something a while ago I didn't
want to interrupt you but I want to go
back to it now you said you rediscovered
yourself yeah what does that mean like
you need a sense of identity is that a
core part of this like is when you say
you rediscovered is it a
self-narrative it's you you know who you
deeply are as a person you're acquainted
with yourself you're acquainted with
your true self and just as with people
who are around you you can you can
create a an identity that's actually not
authentic you can create an identity to
yourself that's not authentic you can be
giving yourself a self-narrative that's
not true to actually who you are as a
person what does it mean who you are
what you're good at what you love it
generally speaking has to do with being
in the zone of what you actually love to
do and what you appreciate most in your
life when you're in line with your own
values when you're living Accord to your
own value so Jung would have put it this
way Carl Yung his definition of his
understanding of Happiness was that you
need to understand your own values what
you value what you think is proper and
correct and moral and if you know what
that is and can articulate it and live
according to that you will be happy if
you do you agree with that I think it's
actually there's a lot of Truth to that
because you know you have to figure out
what you think what your model of the
world actually is what you think truth
is and then living in accord with your
own values with your own Integrity is is
really critically important because when
people live outside that Groove they're
they're never in equilibrium they're
just never the problem is that they're
not comfortable they're not comfortable
in their own skin and I've noticed this
you know I was working you know was it
was it was it was good being the
president of a th tank I was lucky to be
president of Think Tank I believed in
the work
but it wasn't who I was and so I was
kind of out of my groove for 10 years 10
and a half years and when I started
going when I went back to writing and
speaking and teaching and doing creative
work I
said that always who you were or was
that because you switched into Crystal
it's always who I was always a creating
you know as a kid I was painting and
writing and composing music and I just
always wanted to be I was creativity is
the most important thing in my life or
curiosity and creativity are the are the
most important thing that I can not the
most important thing in my life the most
important thing that I can do and when
I'm actually happiest and when I was
managing a large Workforce managing a
lot of creatives to their best selves I
mean it was they had certainly creative
moments to it to be sure but it wasn't
comfortable to me and when I my second
curve which was much more crystallized
intelligence is a lot also a lot more
creative so I was kind of out of
equilibrium for a long time during that
period as well which compounds the
problem of my declining fluid
intelligence also not being in a
creative role but it's just so much
better I mean I I teach you at a great
University which I love I write for a
magazine every week about things that
I'm really interested in I get to talk
to you about it this is well beats
working so true for some reason I was
just thinking today like
I was pacing listening to you and I was
like I'm technically working right now
weird I was like this is cool it is
super cool and you know there are people
that I've met it's interesting you know
I talk to lawyers who don't feel like
they're working I talk to and a guy
who's putting in cabinets in my house
and and he's super into putting in
cabinets he loves making cabinets he was
talking about all the details and he's
so proud of his work and I say do you do
you do you like like your work and he
said doesn't feel like work you know I
went on a fishing Expedition deep sea
fishing Expedition with my son Carlos we
we he loves to fish we go fishing and uh
and the guy says every morning I wake up
and he says today I'm going
fishing and so this is what we all need
to find I mean we need to each person
because we have the blessing of living
in an economy where you can do a lot of
different things um the problem is that
people Chas these extrinsic lures the
money power pleasure and fame and they
get out of the groove of what they're
supposed to do and then they wonder why
they're unhappy I want to go back to
Yung and this idea of values so as you
were saying it I was like yes part of me
agrees but then as I run the thought
experiment sort of check it against
other things um other people to see if
it holds up I feel like right now we're
living through maybe a weird moment or
maybe a completely normal moment in time
where people are using their values to
cudle each other and it doesn't when I
look at them it makes me deeply
uncomfortable and does not
resonate with how I think about values
so is this just a bastardization of the
word value or do the people that that on
either side of the aisle that are just
viciously going after each other right
do they really believe what they're
saying because it seems like a super
dark energy yeah so so this is a
variation on the theme they're the these
these are our people's True Values but
in a fear equilibrium where we're
culturally in a polarity of fear fear
and love are are cognitive and
philosophical opposites so fear is the
master emotion it occupies a part of the
lyic system called the amydala it
actually uses more brain tissue than any
other basic emotion because it's what
keeps you alive if it were not for fear
you would have been you know your
lineage would have died out hundreds of
thousands of years ago by being eaten by
a saber 2 tiger which weirdly you were
not afraid of and so so fear is really
important love is the opposite of fear
love will actually neutralize
inappropriate fear or excessive fear
fear will I did not see those opposites
coming yeah because we think of of love
and hatred but hatred is Downstream from
Fear hatred is always a byproduct of
fear Downstream from Fear so what
happens is I love the way you say that
like Ultra profound [ __ ] like yeah
obviously I have never thought of that
before and so and so when when when
people come to me and they have too much
fear the prescription is surround it
with more love Sur neutralize it with
greater amounts of love it's pH and it's
it's alkaline and a it if you on the
other hand if you're looking for more
love and you don't have enough love in
your life I'm going to ask you questions
about what you're afraid of because I'm
going to try to work on your fear God
damn yeah and so this is and this is how
we actually deal with if you have a fear
problem I'm going to work on the love
Dimension if you have a love problem I'm
going work on the fear Dimension okay so
now when all the way this all this comes
together ultimate in in our lives is we
have to figure out what the problem is
and what we have in our society today is
a fear polarity in ourl politics and our
ideology and our culture and what that
the way that manifests in our values is
we don't use our values which are
beautiful and good as a gift we use them
as a weapon now think how counter uh uh
effective that is how how how
destructive that actually is but when
you're in a fear polarity you're
actually through fear you're going to
use your own values antagonistically
toward other people which is incredibly
uh ineffective you're using coercion
instead of persuasion the point of
values and sharing your values is to
persuade each other that's the fruit of
the Enlightenment but it's also just you
know the basis of human nature if you
cudgle other people with your with your
with your values and use them as a
weapon there's z% chance you're going to
convince anybody of anything but you're
trying to use force zero so the problem
that we have is we could move from a
fear to a love polarity then people
would go back to using their values as a
gift we might we will disagree we will
disagree but disagreement is beautiful
it's the competition of ideas which is
fundamental to a free Society you and
your wife there are things you'll never
agree on and you will die married and in
love that's a you can live in permanent
harmony with somebody with whom you
disagree but only if you have a love
polarity in your life and you use your
values which are in contrast to the
other person's values as a gift and not
as a weapon what we see today in
politics on campuses in media is that
people are trying to kill each other
with their values you know you're a
traitor well you're a racist I mean that
the things that people are throwing at
each other is basically never going to
convince anybody of anything because
there's too much fear damn so what are
people afraid
of people are
afraid we we go through these these sort
of s waves of these cultural polarities
a lot
and emotional contagion is a very
profound thing facts yeah and so
emotional contagion is one in which it's
uh the the culture actually starts to
become in so when when I was a kid for
example growing up in the Pacific
Northwest um in the 1970s there was deep
fear of serial killers Cults remember a
fear-based polarity of of cult and and
what that that led to was
unbelievable um bitterness in politics
where left and right just as bad as
today or almost as bad as it is today um
between the Democrats and the
Republicans between the conservatives
and the Liberals and it all came from
the fear that had infected you know from
in the in the aftermath of Vietnam and
you know the the culture wars that were
going on and the and the the the Cold
War these were very it was a very
fear-based Society on the basis of this
there was a break in that but then you
know it comes back again is the whole
thing the the the opportunity for us as
social entrepreneurs the opportunity for
us is to is to change the polarity is to
encourage people to live by love to have
the courage of actually living by love
in a fear culture and and that's you
know you can fire people up with that
it's what does it mean how do you do
that you basically to make people commit
to only using their values as as a gift
to being around people who are different
than they are to listen to different
points of view to go to people that with
whom they would ordinarily not be in
communion and say I want you to know I
love you to say those incredibly
transgressive words this is the most
transgressive message in all of human
history is love your enemies pray for
those who persecute you that's the
gospel of St Matthew that changed life
on Earth actually is to say that led to
that concept led to the Western
Enlightenment which basically said we
don't have to use Force we can actually
live by
persuasion that was a profound
difference in the in the culture that
led to the progress that would create an
economy where Tom can become a
successful entrepreneur quite frankly
one thing leads to another but we're in
regress right now the fear polarity in
our culture is leading us we we're
devolving culturally because of this so
if we really want a better world I mean
I know I sound like a just like an
unrepentant hippie of which I've been
credibly
accused that we need we need love we
need to stand up to the people on our
own side whatever that side is and say I
refuse to hate I'm just I'm just not
going to do it I'm I'm done man I'm done
I love
you it's interesting so I can't
articulate it that cogently because I
probably haven't spent as much time
thinking about it as you but I've come
to a similar conclusion so what I've
been saying so I never thought that I
would ever utter a word that had
anything to do with the culture war and
then I started to really get freaked out
by watching people run in opposite
directions like just seemingly as fast
as I can CU you're not super political
right I'm not political in the slightest
I don't find politics interesting it
seems to encourage people to be divisive
right and and so my thing is to your
earlier point about you can be married
to somebody and love them deeply and
passionately and disagree about things
so in business as is true in marriage if
you both think alike one of you is not
necessary and the I heard the same thing
about so when when you really ask why
are there two parties which I'd never
stopped to contemplate that so Ray alio
says there are only so many human
personalities and that's why history
repeats over and over and over I thought
a that's really interesting yeah that
there only so many personality types and
that there are basically two big buckets
that you can break people into people
that are we'll call Compassion dominant
and people who are conscientious
dominant so not that they're exclusively
either but people who are like you can't
leave anybody behind and then people
over here are like you have to be
responsible for yourself right so it's
the sort of the liberal conservative
dichotomy that we often think about
popularly exactly and so that cool all
make sense and then in business I
watched this play out so I had two
partners previously
and there were times where they didn't
see eye to eye and I remember the
contribution I felt most strongly that I
had brought to the dynamic was I'm on
the outside going you're both
extraordinary so value each other for
being different like value that friction
right and that in the friction lies the
magic and that either one of you would
be a problem on your own but when you
have that counterveiling force it
actually creates something really
incredible but only if you respect the
other person's View and so then I
started going okay politically it's the
same thing whether you're conservative
or liberal it's like you have to respect
the friction you have to understand that
either one if we only had one spirals
into madness and it is only in the
friction I won't even say the balance
it's in the friction between the two
that you sharpen your ideas like a great
entrepreneur look the the prb Proverbs
say that iron sharpens iron I was giving
a talk to
the assembled members of the Republican
party on the house and the Senate side
the members of the House the members of
the Senate all Republicans in a retreat
some years ago and I said I asked how
many of you wish we lived in a one party
State no hands and no Hearts let's be
honest I said how many of you are
grateful that we live in a democracy
that has multiple parties or at least
two every hand goes up I said you just
told me you're grateful for the
Democratic party axiomatically I wasn't
trying to be tricky but it's actually
true if you're grateful that you can
that there that we live in a country
where we can actually have disagreement
without a knock in the night and the
Jack booted Thug You Are by a by
construction grateful for the people who
disagree with you look the the Yankees
are grateful for the Red Sox they don't
want to blow up the Red Sox bus on the
way to the game that's not how
competition Works competition requires
collaboration it requires rules it
requires respect you know I like the Red
Sox more than the Yankees but I want the
Yankees to show up with their best
pitching and beat them fair and
square I don't want them to Forfeit
that's actually there's no good in that
there's no good in that whatsoever and
remembering this is really really
critical you know the whole idea that
we're in right now and this is how the
fear-based polarity breaks down the iron
sharpens iron how it breaks down the
whole idea of competition it basically
says that do whatever you have to
because you know War I mean you scratch
of the eyes you know a knee to the groin
I don't actually care what happens in
politics because the biggest threat to
this country is my neighbor who votes
for the other party that is simple
Insanity that not to mention the fact
that that is factually incorrect you
know it's actually possible that
Vladimir Putin is going to bring this
country back together again it's
actually possible that somebody who's
you're people are you know looking at
like oh that's
non-democratic that's what that thing
means it's actually not the Democrats
right it's something else and that's one
of the reasons by the way that that
threat brings people together that
common enemy actually brings people
together the great the the the greatest
pity that I can imagine is that the
coronavirus epidemic didn't make us love
each other more for a minute though
didn't it feel like it was going to it
sure did it sure did except that we
politicized that because of the deep
fear in our country and the fact that we
have leaders that are encouraging us to
kill each other rhetorically that are
encouraging us for their own the outrage
industrial complex in media and politics
is trying to drive us apart the outrage
industrial complex I like that it's it's
an old play Eisenhower's military
industrial complex but the outrage
industrial complex remember you know
everybody's watching us now when you
hate somebody's profiting and not you
bottom line well said yeah no man that's
exactly how it feels yeah and it's crazy
and it's interesting so I'm definitely
not an unrepentant hippie or credibly
accused uh of being hippie I'm super
weirded out by that stuff but the only
thing I can think is that we have to
race to the middle and love each other
like that's it and love has been or even
not in the middle even just like stay in
the stay in the SS and still love each
other it's like keep your opinions
absolutely you know I I'm not saying get
rid of your opinions yeah yeah but I
mean the party that's closest to the
middle always gets elected n it's not
necessarily the case I mean we've been
kind of oscillating back and forth
between between political positions that
are actually not representative of the
middle and this is a different kind of
sort of a a it's a different political
Dynamic which you're kind of going rail
to rail and you're going rail to rail
because you know you basically cuz you
can have bashing
for example you can say that you know
given the fact that we we go between
parties might mean because people are so
close to the center or it might be
because you have two blocks that are
incredibly strong that are relatively
equal in power but very very different
than one another so this is the key the
key is basically either one can be fine
you can have very I mean I was had
dinner with a couple an older couple a
couple of weeks ago and the the the wife
is super liberal like pro-choice and the
Democrats all the way and the husband is
just he's just as rightwing as they get
I mean just very pro-life on abortion I
mean all these issues that down the line
what you'd expect from conservatives and
liberals and they're they've been
they've been married for 50 years and
they and it's like and and privately it
says gosh I admire her so much she's
just so wonderful in the whole thing and
and it reminded me that this is the key
thing that you can be in permanent
disagreement but in love equilibrium we
just have to be people that can do that
you know we've been convinced somehow by
people who are making money and getting
power and followers and their jollies
from our fighting that we have to that
we that we can't be around people
disagree with us yeah that's Insanity
that's a that's a that's quite frankly a
mistake and you know and you would not
be a successful entrepreneur if that had
been the case where everybody has to
agree because as you quite astutely
point out um you know if you surround
yourself with people just like you
you're not going to succeed I love the
idea of Lincoln's A Team of Rivals
exactly right getting people that think
differently getting people that push you
like in in business I will just tell you
right now if you don't have people that
are willing to tell you when you're
wrong you are [ __ ] at least so I going
back to my own insecurities I don't see
myself as smart enough to just run the
company by decree so I've had to create
a structure where people are not afraid
to speak to powert and because I have
not invested anything in my self-esteem
around being right I don't mind like hey
just tell me where I'm wrong I'm so like
obsessed with getting the result I don't
care if it's my idea I just need it to
be the right idea but man it's really
hard to get people in in a company
Dynamic where ultimately there's an
imbalance of power and of course I could
fire them at any second but they could
leave at any second which is equally
distressing for me except multiplied
they only have you know two people my
wife and I who co-founded the company to
worry about we have all 50 of them uh
you know to worry about so and if you're
a tyrant and they leave you're cooked
yeah no doubt yeah because it's hard to
find good people and the SEC to success
actually is a good team it actually is
good people it's interesting I do this
test for my students I teach this class
called leadership and happiness at the
Harvard Business School and I I take
them through a battery of personality
and happiness tests over the course of
the semester and the one they like best
is the positive affect negative aect
battery and what that is is is your
positive and negative affect emotion
levels and what they learn is that you
can be both very positive and negative
you can be a high happiness and a high
unhappiness person because you're a high
affect person and you can also be a low
unhappiness person but a low expression
of Happiness person you're a low affect
person you can be high positive low
negative that's the cheerleader you can
be low positive and high negative that's
the poet low low is the judge and high
high is you he's the mad scientist right
and what you need and what I show is
actually you know use using the you know
the research on this that you got to
figure out which one you are and you
must surround yourself with what you're
not the biggest predictor of success on
teams and entrepreneurial startups or
even established companies is making
sure that the CEO is not surrounding
herself or himself with people who have
the same affect profile and there's a
role for everybody there's a role for
The Poets there's a role for the judges
it interesting it's a guy who I it was
actually a woman in my class this year
and she's like I don't know if I can be
a successful business leader she's a
doctor um and she's getting her MBA
super high super striver super striver
she says I don't know you know if I I've
got this judge profile you know this low
low aect profile I don't I don't know I
said what' you do for a living before
this she say I was a surgeon I said
that's perfect I do not want a high AFF
effect surgeon you know somebody who
opens me up and says oh my God and so
there's a role for everybody and we
actually need that iron sharpening iron
on our teams and we need to Value it we
need to love it we need to actually
resist the tendency to want to surround
ourselves with people like us and this
is exactly what we're not doing in our
politics and our country is in Decline
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entrepreneurs who have made over $6
billion I also think we need to have a
distrust of ourselves that you're not
going to like those words but I am
skeptical enough of myself meaning that
I know I'm high high that I can get very
excited about something I know that
emotions make dots feel like they
connect that don't actually connect and
so it's like I have to make sure that I
seek that disconfirming evidence that I
don't think well I feel it and therefore
we all need to get behind this idea I'm
like no no no I tell people put on your
iCal hat like tell me where's the
problem yeah I completely agree with
that and you know you had Adam Grant on
the show no Adam Grant teaches it at
Wharton at you know at Penn as social
psychologist fantastic his newest book
is called think again which is exactly
the case that you're making he makes the
case that if you really want to be
successful don't trust you and it
doesn't mean that you can never trust
you but you know look for the the
evidence to the contrary look for ways
that where your confirmation bias is
probably leading you astray don't look
to feel good about yourself cuz you're
right on everything look you're wrong on
lots of stuff you just don't know on
what stuff yeah so help have people
around you who can and it's probably not
that fun to have somebody around you who
every single day says you're wrong in
every single thing you got to find some
sort of balance for Pete's sake and if
you're the boss you're probably right on
most things but do if you're if you're
wrong you should want to know first not
last if you want to be successful yeah
it's crazy to me how and I won't say
it's crazy I understand it when you are
right it feels good even now when I know
better it still feels good when I was
right yeah I just don't invest in that I
don't encourage that in myself I'm like
yo You' got to be careful with that yeah
but when people would actually rather
like they get angry when people point
out a flaw in the idea I'm like what are
you doing like that you are headed
towards an iceberg and you're actively
discouraging people from letting you
know yeah it's ego threat ego threat is
really deep for people who are living
their heads because they don't want
people to think they're incompetent the
failure's real totally the failure's
coming no no but they will they'll
they'll resist tooth and nail it's just
it's like you're trying to cut off my
finger by telling me my opinion was
wrong it's unbelievable how the
evolution has led us to this place you
want to be right you want to be right
because you feel like an almost physical
need to be right being contradicted um
is is socially painful and there's a um
the same part of the brain the anterior
singul of the brain processes both
physical and social pain that's crazy we
have a very practical brain a very
parsimonious brain and you know
stimulating the same part of the brain
so it's like you know being being told
you're wrong and being embarrassed for
something that you were wrong feels like
somebody punching you in the face to
your brain at least and so you'll resist
that because you're trying to protect
yourself it's deeply suboptimal and
dangerous you're right yeah if I could
just in fact my success is because I'm
not afraid to be embarrassed I never
like it it sucks every time but a
willingness to be embarrassed is how I
have learned yeah know and humility of
course is a great is one of the great
secrets of Happiness too that's
interesting why yeah humility is in is
because it gives you peace humility
allows you to relax because you're not
trying to protect something yeah you're
not actually trying to protect your
fortune you're not standing in front of
your stash of gold all the time you know
walking back and forth with a shotgun
you know you you could basically just
walk away and take it you know you can
you can relax into the reality of your
fallibility for for one and a lot of
people never quite and I'm sure that
people are listening to our words right
now and some people are going like
actually I think that might be true you
know I've never actually let down my
guard you know and once you actually get
into it's it's actually it's a very
interesting rhetorical habit when you're
having a conversation with your spouse
or your friend or your anyl interlocutor
of any kind and they make a good point
say
huh that's a really good point I think I
might be wrong I think I'm I think I
might be wrong now that's really hard
secret to marriage though it is oh man
God if you can do that it's amazing it
is amazing now part of the problem is
that you often don't think you're
wrong that is part of the problem yeah
and so you know being consiliary in a
way that that you know saying I think
I'm wrong when you actually aren't or or
or where truth is you just don't know
you just don't know I mean a lot of
marital Discord comes because you know
somebody's saying you got to do
something differently and you literally
don't know what to do you don't know
what to do I mean there were probably
times when you're miserable I'm just
going to guess in your work and you were
going a you were working 80 100 hours a
week and you're going in a million
different directions and your wife's say
you need to be happy you need to let
this go you need to do less and you're
like I don't know what to do less I I
don't know how to do less and that's
really tough because that's giving you
directions that you can't quite take and
a lot of marital Discord actually comes
down to that is directions you don't
know how to follow I'm really obsessed
with this idea that running in the back
of your mind are evolutionary algorithms
and there's no escaping them and so
there just certain things you are going
to have to do if you want
to I don't know if you're going to agree
with this framing but if you if you're
going to feel the way you want to feel
you must be aware of these algorithms
you must acknowledge them right so I've
always tried to migrate people away from
happiness not as you define it as the
smell of the turkey stop worrying about
the right exactly because they're so
transient corre and get to fulfillment
correct and fulfillment for me has a
formula be interested to see if you
agree with this um these are based on
what I consider the evolutionary
algorithms running in your mind that
there is no escape from so you are going
to have to work hard anything that comes
easily will just not it won't resonate
that's a satisfaction issue by the way
satisfaction is the joy that comes after
struggle that's what satisfaction is so
you get satisfaction always have to come
from struggle you have to do something
and it's the sense of earning something
so for example if if you you cheat on
the exam and you get an A there's no
satisfaction true but I feel deeply
satisfied after good sex do I feel like
I earned it I don't know I have not
investigated this feeling yeah but
that's that's actually that's that's not
satisfaction that's enjoyment is it
that's what you and satisfaction you
feel sexually satisfied well that's a
word that we use but it's different than
what we're talking about here so it's
again we're defining the terms of the
problem super important because you may
be about to have me separate two ideas
that because I don't have words for I
people talk about sexual satisfaction
where they're talking about sexual
enjoyment so enjoyment is a better word
you're done so when I am overcome with
desire the right way to think of it for
me is hunger it feels the same I've got
to have this thing I really want it
anticipatory chemicals oh my God and
then I get it and so like I'll
differentiate between masturbation and
sex when I masturbate necessarily feel
satisfied that's one of the things that
makes that such a whatever Pursuit
whereas when I have sex I feel satisfied
like there's some deeper thing in me and
and it it it is an extinguishing of The
Hunger but because I have oxytocin and
vasopressin it's like oh man I feel so
good so it's this combination of the
calming of that like seeking Behavior
with like and I feel so bonded and
connected to this person yeah this is
just terms so the way to think about it
in in this particular framework is
pleasure versus enjoyment got it okay so
pleasure is you know something that
pornography is associated with pleasure
um sexual activity in a in a in a parab
bonded relationship is is is is
associated with enjoyment because it has
people and memory and so one of the
things to keep in mind a strategy
especially for a lot of young people a
lot of young men is to is to do is if
you like something it's best if you're
not doing it alone because then you're
probably in stop it not necessarily this
is just kind of a rule of thumb this is
not this is not an iron law but it's a
rule of thumb doing it alone is
associated with pleasure so you know um
anheiser Bush doesn't do ads about beer
where they show a dude pounding a
12-pack alone in his apartment right why
not because that would be that would be
yeah because a lot of people use alcohol
for pleasure right which leads to
addiction and misery they talk they see
you know you me cracking open a Bud
Light and clink and talking about how
great it is and because we're friends
and we're making a memory and that's
enjoyment which is associated with
happiness so we have a we have a basic
idea of that the same thing is true with
the the example of sex that you talked
about a minute ago you can it can be
pleasure or it can be enjoyment and
everybody knows the difference between
sexual experiences that are pleasurable
or enjoyable enjoy enjoyment is the goal
because that's one of the macronutrients
of Happiness we talk about in term in
the terms that you define a satisfaction
but it's really a in in this terminology
and again you know you have to just
defining terms these are just words but
the concepts underlying them are are are
critical in the book you give a really
good example of pleasure without
enjoyment yeah uh which you mentioned
obliquely a minute ago but when you
think of a drug addict yeah they're
doing the drug right they're
theoretically getting the pleasure but
they're not getting any of the enjoyment
right they're getting tons of pleasure
it's because they're loading only on
pleasure but no enjoyment because it's
not social and it actually is not
engaging the prefrontal cortex and the
hippocampus to create memory and so you
you you will you simply will have a
transient experience and the transient
experience will be unsatisfying until
you'll hit the lever again and again and
again and again and it will lower your
quality of life so that's the key thing
if there's something you really really
love so for example I'll ask people will
talk about because I I've done a lot of
work on the on the the science of
addiction and it's a very interesting
subject people say how do you know if
you're addicted because these are
behavioral constructs you know you can't
take a blood test to know if you're if
you're an alcoholic if you're you know
so it's these are behavioral and the big
behavioral thing is do you prefer to
drink alone do you prefer to actually
become inebriated alone that means
you're looking for pleasure versus
enjoyment and that is a that that is has
a lot that will lead you more to
addiction more toward addiction and away
from happiness is the way that that
works that's the reason that people say
never drink alone they don't know what
they're saying is they're saying enjoy
it don't have it be a source of pleasure
because that's dangerous so that gives
you an idea so we've talked a little bit
about satisfaction talked a little bit
about enjoyment these are heavy heavy
topics in terms of the social science
and Neuroscience for sure and we haven't
even touched on meaning which is the
heaviest of them all which is the
hardest of them all so you can become an
a what I really want is I want people to
be to be obsessed with to have their
hobby be the science of happiness and
how they can get it and spread it CU
that would be a really meritorious
movement if people were like like yeah
more of the science more understanding
it I want to be excellent at this I want
to be most excellent my hobby is getting
better at happiness and it's changed my
life it's a good hobby it's really been
a good hobby for me I made it into a
career that you most certainly did um so
I want to close the loop on the
Fulfillment recipe and get your take on
that so uh you have to work really hard
because that's just nature ensures that
you're going to do that so that you're
out the hard things like getting a meal
protecting your family Etc uh to acquire
a set of skills right that's a big lean
on progress because I agree progress I
think is a foundational pillar of human
happiness right uh so you're going to
work really hard to gain a set of skills
that allow you to serve yourself and
others right and it needs to be in a way
that you find exciting so that to me is
those are the things that nature is
going to ensure that you do and if
you're the doing it for not only
yourself but others is the meaning
portion of this right
um why do is it that people never stop
to identify what gives them meaning is
it that they confuse meaning is that
they're stuck in the Mis sself why do so
few people so few people end up cracking
that code part of the reason is because
they're not specifically trying to find
meaning they don't make it a goal they
just they they a lot of people believe
that if I do what I'm really really good
at and I can be successful at that it's
going to give me a ton of meaning
automatically and that's not right like
anything else you have to do things on
purpose did you get meaning when you
were a classical musician no that was
the reason that's the reason I'm not a
classical could you have gotten meaning
out of it many people do but here's the
thing I I my my favorite composer is
Johan Sebastian Bach maybe the greatest
composer who ever lived it's great story
yeah I mean 1685 to 1750 20 kids he had
20 kids yeah he was a he was productive
as a composer and father was Catholic he
wasn't he was Lutheran but um but he was
I say that because I know you're
Catholic those listening you wonder why
I made a joke he was just a sexy
Lutheran but and and and
Bach was asked near the end of his life
why he wrote music at the why question
you know our our friend Simon cic was
talks about start with why and it's
fantastic I mean it's been because it
really is you people are going around
asking what and hoping to get the why
for free and Simon's entrepreneurial
twist is start with why and then the
what will come automatic and you'll be a
lot more satisfied because you'll find
the source of meaning so box why when he
was asked why do you write music was the
aim and Final End of all music is the
refreshment of the soul and the
glorification of God okay not bad not
bad at all but I read that in my late
20s when I was still I was in the
Barcelona Symphony in those days and it
a good job and it was you know I love
the music it's really into it it's kind
of a high Prestige job you know playing
the greatest it still sounds cool it
sounds cool sounds cool yeah but I
couldn't I couldn't answer like that I
couldn't answer like that I didn't feel
like I was refreshing Souls particularly
I certainly didn't feel like I was
glorifying God I was you built that in
though cuz this is one thing I always
think people think they're going to find
meaning it just wasn't my thing and so I
went in search of something where I
could answer my why question like
Bach I I became a social scientist that
was the thing that was it because you
know when I I because after that you
also you you go on to run the thing tank
after that right right yeah I got my PhD
I actually finished College a month
before my 30th birthday by
correspondence so this is not a typical
path to you know a professor ship at
Harvard obviously this is not typically
the way it gets done this a great
country isn't
it yeah um a kid from peup can do this
it's fantastic crazy I love that so um
and then I went and I I got so
interested when I was doing my my
bachelor's degree in the in human
behavior and the fact that you can model
it and you can study it that I I went
back and got my masters in PhD as a
social scientist as a quantitative
social scientist I was doing for a
living I was doing military operations
research at the Rand Corporation for you
know like secret stuff for the Air Force
and all that but you know using and you
felt the sense of meaning and all that I
was what I felt the sense of minan was I
was learning so much that was so
critically interesting and I had a
strong sense that I was going I was
learning how to a ask and answer
original questions about human