Kind: captions
Language: en
the world is a chaotic and beautiful
place but to take in the beauty we first
have to bring order to the chaos to do
that though I think we have to take
responsibility for the state of our
minds and our lives how do you take
responsibility for moving
forward I think the first step is to try
and understand ourselves in sort of
observable ways which often we don't do
of taking stock of what is it that I
know about myself uh what do what am I
aware of that may or may not have
changed in me we hide a lot from
ourselves so the idea of curiosity and
self-scrutiny tells us a lot right it
can tell us a lot but it also tells us
that there's so much of which we are not
readily aware so our minds are like
icebergs right with the the conscious
part of the Mind above the water and the
much larger part underneath right so so
understanding ourselves is often a much
richer process right than just taking an
inventory of self for example and and
self-examination includes reflection
talking with others sometimes
Psychotherapy the kind of things we do
to to grow ourselves right so reading
and learning so the the process of
understanding ourselves is uh taking
stock in a sort of inventory kind of way
but that's really the beginning and even
that is not easy your life is still your
responsibility right my life is my
responsibility From This Moment forward
there are people who can help me there
are people who love me and care about me
and you know people who can take care of
me professionally like all those things
are true but I'm responsible for myself
and often taking responsibility for
ourselves going forward we have to feel
that we can do that right I have to not
be terrified of taking responsibility
for myself or think that oh I can't do
that right I I'm I'm cursed and it'll
never go well or I'm incompetent I don't
know how to take care of myself and
think the way that we find it within
ourselves to take responsibility for
ourselves is often to release ourselves
from the lessons of the trauma if that
Mak the lessons of the trauma right so
so trauma the false lessons right trauma
makes false lessons within us so if I
think I was hit by a drunk driver and
it's my fault because I shouldn't have
been out at night right it's my fault I
shouldn't have driven that way home it's
my fault because I I got mad at one of
my children earlier and and I wasn't
thinking straight after I let that anger
come out right then there's a reflex of
Shame right that is telling me that I
should be afraid right that I'm
incompetent I can't take care of myself
right or maybe God has it out for me or
Fate has it out for me or whatever it
may be and we have to understand that in
order to be able to put things in their
proper place of look something happened
to me that I couldn't control right I
mean I'm driving along I'm being safe
I'm being reasonable and someone hits me
blindsides me and you I'm really hurt or
now I'm living with the consequences of
that maybe for the rest of my life and
the reflective shame of that is is so
strong you know probably because of a
combination of evolutionary mechanisms
that you know if something doesn't go
right and a person feels shame that
person is so attuned to that right and
that may have made sense in um
evolutionary stages of human development
I mean again that I don't know I know
that it's in us so I and try and think
about what the reasons might be
evolutionarily but also you our
society is in so many ways absurd
bizarre right it doesn't tell us very
very basic facts that we need to know so
like traumas happen to us right big and
small and they create reflexive shame
like we we observe that we observe its
consequences but yet we don't say that
right we have a different societal model
that means like oh just don't think
about it and think about other things
right just life's got to go forward or
or if people don't want to talk about it
at all and then shame and responsibility
or fear festers inside of us right we so
so our response to trauma is to hide it
away is to not talk about the changes in
us and regardless of what the biology or
The evolutionary aspects are we know
that's facilitated by a society that
doesn't understand how to look at it
right if we thought okay there's been
major trauma what's the first priority
we as a society have when as a
responsibility to that person or even to
Society of wanting productive citizens
in society healthy citizens right would
be to oh my gosh we need to wrap around
that person we need to make sure that
resources that help that person talk and
express and understand what's inside of
them like we don't do that you know at
most somebody might knock on the door
once or or lock on the phone really once
or twice you want to talk you in the
hospital but we don't do that and
sometimes never ever is that death or
that injury is that trauma talked about
again and then it festers inside of
people and it changes people and this is
what we see when you know the the death
certificate I might see of a patient is
car accident accidental overdose but but
I know that that's not the cause of
death the cause of death is the trauma
that I I well know about and and and
where it drove that person but it's very
very hard to to be able to express and
to have the help wrap around someone in
ways that are just rational right in the
context of the data we have it's it's
not what happens in our modern society
the trauma is hit away the problems
fester and grow okay so there's uh a lot
of things in there that I want to tease
apart so one of them is I've heard you
talk about the in America we are five
times more likely to prescribe drugs for
somebody dealing with trauma than say or
I guess just in general than in the um
Netherlands and your hypothesis which
makes a lot of sense to me is that a
part of the Dutch culture is taking
responsibility and so I want to contrast
that with what you were just saying
where one of the responses that you want
to see Society reorient themselves
towards is wrapping themselves around
that person and I want to make this
problem as hard as possible so that we
deal with the person who's listening who
I really want a beautiful life moving
forward I want them to to actually solve
this problem but I'm going to assume
they can't get other people to wrap
around them probably partly because they
they either before the trauma didn't
know how to bridge that Gap or now post
trauma they don't know how to bridge
that Gap so starting from the idea of
taking
responsibility how do we do that in a
way where the person is doing it from a
position of self-love not self-loathing
right but that they can get themselves
to a point where then Society may be
able to respond well but I want to First
assume no one's coming to save you right
which is my Baseline thesis in life that
it is even though like one of the first
things I'm going to tell people is
loving relationships is critically
important however I think you have to
approach life with the belief no one's
coming to save me I have to do it myself
and so how does one pull themselves out
of the shame spiral if others aren't
wrapping themselves around them MH the
first thing I would say is a person has
to run countercurrent to a soci Society
determined medical system that is not
going to change in the short term and
that pushes away from health so we have
a medical system that prioritizes
throughput right and throughput how fast
can I see patients yeah and how how many
how many patients can be seen in an hour
right me how many primary care doctors I
think the lifeblood of the health of all
of us right are suffering under systems
that that um think it's reasonable and
rational that they're going to have
giant panels of patients and see four
people people an hour maybe five if
someone else is out sick right so we we
Short change all of us right and then we
have a system that is based on like what
is the bottom line now like what is the
bottom line in the insurance industry in
the pharmaceutical industry and I'm all
for health insurance and I'm all for
medications right but we have a system
that is so out of balance that it
prioritizes throughput and because then
speed of like okay how can how much can
I listen to like this symptom that
symptom only write a prescription and
okay got to get you on your way right
because I got to take three breaths
right after 14 and2 minutes before this
the next person comes in right that is
understandably of course that's going to
rely on heavily on medicines right it's
a lot easier to write prescriptions than
it is to talk to people okay so if Step
One is don't fall prey to a system
that's just going to give you medication
and move you on your way going back to
something you said earlier which is we
have to put things in their proper place
yes how do I do that so I'm not just
going to medicate but I need to
understand how to put things in their
place so let's say I'm following what
you've said so I'm looking at myself I
notice the changes I'm going to try to
pull myself out of the death spiral by
putting things in their proper place but
I don't know what that means so what is
the proper place for trauma so I think a
person is best served by taking stock of
what's going on inside of them which
doesn't mean that we have to understand
ourselves and what the trauma has done
to us right cuz that if that were there
the person would probably be in a
different place right like there's
there's fear and confusion and like
things aren't going well right so it's
it's taking stock of that and
recognizing what level is it at right if
it's at a level where a person really
doesn't want to be alive anymore is
having suicidal thoughts or plans then
like that's the time to figure out like
I need to go to a hospital right and and
if I go to a hospital and and I'm
sitting there for 12 hours in a waiting
room and no one is coming to see me and
I can't take it anymore like have to go
to another hospital right so so we have
to be perseverant in getting what we
need because as you said no one's going
to reach out and help us right so we
take stock of what is it that I need so
in the situation where life may be at
risk okay it's a hospital right in other
situations we can also take stock of
what our resources are so for example if
you have insurance and you just call the
insurance and they say gosh we're so
sorry something awful has happened uh
there'll be a therapy appointment for
you in s weeks right then like you you
have to be the squeaky wheel you have to
fight for that right you have to fight
for what is ow to you right like you
have insurance you should be getting
help right let's take that as a basic
premise if the help is not helpful then
you have to fight for yourself do you
have Baseline beliefs that you want the
patient to believe in so for instance
you're worth fighting for no matter what
happened to you you're still a valuable
human being absolutely 100% And if
you're not sure if you're valuable human
being whether you can link it to
something that happened to you or not
that is a reason to get help that in and
of itself is always a reason to get help
we're all valuable human beings right so
if you're questioning that then yes you
look around you and say what help is
there for me to get and if there is no
insurance and there is no resources then
a person can try and understand like
what is it the community can provide
right there are often resources that may
come for free or very deeply discounted
through for example religious
organizations or other charitable
organizations right there are helping
people in the world again they're not
easy to find right or they can be that
it's not they're not easy to find but if
we if a person says like look I'm not
accepting what's going on in me or
what's happened to me or that that this
could be going on in me and there's
nothing for me right then then we need
to look at what's around us investigate
think ask right because we need to guide
ourselves to help as you said no one's
going to come take responsibility ility
for us like we don't live in a society
that functions that way and often if you
go for help you get something that's not
helpful right I think if someone comes
who who's very unhealthy and overweight
and out of shape and starting to have
cardiovascular problems and they come
and see a physici and they walk away
with fre prescriptions and don't change
their habits right and think about that
compare it to someone who goes to a
physician who has more time to sit down
and talk to them and say look here's
what needs to change in your life which
is why other societies it's reason right
other societies use less medicines than
us but but it also sheds light on how we
Throw medicines we throw short-term
Solutions or alleged Solutions right
like medicines don't solve trauma right
can medicines help with symptoms can
medicines be in your corner as you go to
fight something if before trauma you
didn't have panic attacks and now
something happened and you're having
panic attacks well medicines can help
with that and that's a great use of
medicines but the idea that I'm going to
take stock of you and say you're a
person who has panic attacks I'll give
you medicine to not have panic attacks
and that's the end of the story has it
fixed anything right and that's why when
people don't get better which the system
then say though the person failed the
intervention right it's now we even use
that terminology like oh you failed this
kind of therapy you failed that kind of
medicine like how about we failed you in
how many ways and it's not reasonable to
think that that people would get better
by and large or on mass with the help
that we give them so we have all these
statistics right that tell us nothing
except the fact that we have a broken
system that isn't actually looking at
people if we invest in people in the
long term well people get better and
Society gets healthier right I mean we
know that from from the perspective of
Education right like early childhood
experiences trying to avoid Early
Childhood trauma getting education to
people at stages of life where they can
really take in uh the hope and and
possibilities of the future like we know
this makes sense it doesn't any less
make sense when we're talking about our
own health as individuals or as a
society okay so if I am um obese and I
come in and I'm I have a heart condition
the habits that I would put people on
exercise better diet uh looking at
biomarkers in order to make sure that
we're moving in the right direction like
uh body fat percentage uh blood sugar uh
lipids that kind of thing so it's it's a
pretty known Cascade of things that one
should do if somebody comes with trauma
is there a similar set of habits and
changes that they would need to make and
are there markers that are objective
that we can look at yeah so it's not
quite as straightforward as you know for
example taking blood and then you know
getting certain very clear biomarkers of
internal States and potentially of
biological change right but there are
absolutely markers and and the mark
markers become evident if you sit down
and talk with someone right so so one
example can be a defensive structure
right we all have defensive structures
which which Define like how do we
navigate the world like what do I have
to arm myself against the slings and
arrows right of a world that brings a
lot of of difficulty right and what we
see sometimes is a defensive structure
that for example changes after trauma
right so one example is one aspect of a
healthy defensive structure is
sublimation so so I'm feeling something
that's very that's distressing but
inside I I want to turn it into
something that's productive right so I I
have I I feel like aggression and some
anger and frustration in me and you know
what I can take that out in the gym and
it helps me be healthier right it's like
that that kind of thing right and you
can see oh if you and I are sitting down
and talking and you're coming right for
help right presuming that's why we're
sitting down and talking right and
you're telling me that you're depressed
I'm saying okay like I want to
understand the details cuz I don't know
anything from just that right now let's
say we start talking and I start
learning more about you and I see like
wow your defensive structure has really
changed and you're telling me about a
lot of adaptive ways of responding and
now maybe you're acting out more right
or maybe using a substance to soothe
right or maybe using denial or avoidance
and you know we start to see then oh
there's changes in a person look this is
not what happens all the time but the
vast majority of what I have taken care
of over a long time over two decades of
doing this has been created by trauma
whether it's depression it's substance
abuse it's panic attacks it's
interpersonal violence right it's coming
from trauma so we don't always identify
traumatic change and it's not always
dramatic right it can be the
accumulation of smaller traumas like
denigration being seen as less than over
and over and over and over again but if
you really want to understand the person
you often learn exactly this like
defensive structure has changed person
is different they see their hopes and
Prospects in a different way right and
and and here's the key they often don't
know it trauma happens changes their
behavior but they're not conscious of
the change in Behavior well changes us
inside so like behavior is a
manifestation physically or like it are
we talking about it lays down new neural
Pathways or are you talking purely uh
either frame of reference which we'll
probably need to Define or
behavioral true so behavior is just the
final manifestation right so the changes
we say are psychological you think okay
what does that mean right everything
that's psychological is biological right
I mean our psychology arises from our
brains our brains are composed of cells
and fluids and right they're the same as
the the rest of our bodies right we're
composed of neurons that are firing in
incredibly complicated ways across
incredibly complicated systems and that
changes right so so this is not um a
polyana assertion that like everything
is trauma and we're going to pay
attention to it and we're going to get
better it's based in hard science and
and I'll give you two examples so there
may be two Pathways I'm simplifying
right but but but it's this is really
kind of how it goes right where there
may be two Pathways inside of me if
something negative happens right to me
and one pathway could be like damn it
this not what I wanted but like I'm
going to bring myself to I'm going to do
a better right another pathway could be
like what a loser you are like you never
do anything right right look I've got
both Pathways inside of me right and
what
determines where the energy goes right
is is how the linkages are between the
neurons in those Pathways so if
something happens to me and I feel very
very bad about myself you know it starts
to Foster the negative Pathways right or
if I've said 500 times over you know
compared to 30 times down the other
Pathways that I'm a loser what's wrong
with me like that's where the energy is
going to go because those neuronal
linkages are stronger like it's it's
neurobiologically traceable right down
to what happens I mean we don't
understand it completely of course but
we understand the changes that happen
within us so yes it's psychological
because it's neurobiological and and
that's how it it is behavioral it's
ultimately neurobiological then
psychological is a manifestation on top
of it and then that determines our
Behavior an example that is even more
Stark is that traumas can determine how
old we are okay so you may think like
what does that mean like my my birthday
is my birthday right okay your birthday
is your birthday in the sense that
you're always going to have a birthday
and we can always calculate forward and
say this is how old you are does that
really tell us how old you are by the
calendar it does but I don't really care
about the calendar compared to my body
right I mean my body's determining how
old I really am inside right and and
after major traumas there's there's
great research that shows us that
there's an increased Aging in cells you
know Research into tiir this aging
science right tells us that if you've
had very significant trauma the Cascade
of problems neurologically biologically
endocrinologically from the the top of
your head to the tip of your toe means
you know you might be 45 but really 52
right you might be 65 but really 70
right but that's real right that's true
if you look at at measures of Aging
without major trauma you can back map to
how old the person is basically right
but with major trauma that person got
older that very very terrifying and the
fact that um depression specifically I
don't know how linked it is to trauma
specifically but depression predicts an
increase in heart attack which is crazy
right so I I want to stay on this idea
of putting things in their place because
as I think about the habits that
somebody that has encountered a trauma
would need to imbue in their life me as
a lay person the things that I would
tell them to do would be uh first I want
to eliminate all the biological things
that might be causing this so you're
going to want to clean up your diet so
just going to the biological knock on
effect of shortening your lifespan
there's just realities to be faced
around inflammation would be a big one
so I'm going to Target things that cause
inflammation so stress is one of them so
let's get you meditating uh diet is
another let's clean up your diet which
we'll call whole food low sugar um
getting sleep getting sun exposure but
the tricky one and the one that is going
to keep you in business forever is how
do I conceptualize of the trauma and my
role in it you can reboot your life your
health even your career anything you
want all you need is discipline I can
teach you the tactics that I learned
while growing a billion doll business
that will allow you to see your goals
through but want better health stronger
relationships a more successful career
any of that is possible with the mindset
and business programs in Impact Theory
University join the thousands of
students who have already accomplished
amazing things tap now for a free trial
and get started
today what I want to understand is you
you get somebody who's just had an acute
event in fact your your book opens the
intro to your book was written by Lady
Gaga and she said she basically woke up
in your
presence and was like whoa I I'm being
told I just had a psychotic break and I
assume from all the pressure of
Performing because I think it was while
she was on tour and in that moment how
do we begin obviously doesn't need to be
with her so you're not talking
specifically about a person but do we
first need to know exactly what happened
then do we need to know how they think
about what happened do they we need to
then understand how they think about
their role in what happened and so for
instance my instinct would be to get
somebody on CBT cognitive behavioral
therapy but I've heard you say that it's
maybe not the solution um so I'd love to
understand how
mechanistically how do we put things in
its place like what are the beliefs that
you try to imbue people with what I'll
call the frame of reference so your
beliefs and your values essentially your
beliefs about yourself in the world your
value system about uh how you ought to
be and how the world ought to be would
be the only way I would know how to
attack this problem of getting people to
put things in the right place yes okay I
will speak to that but I if it's okay
I'd like to speak first to you had said
okay there are things you can do right
like you can get the basics right of
start taking better care of yourself
right have a better diet start
exercising meditate right and then the
tricky one is this the psychological one
right but I would argue because of this
one they're all tricky right it's not
easy to change one's diet to rest better
right they
Em Right you have to think that one
you're worth it and you can achieve it
right and after traumas and again it's
not necessarily major traumas so it can
be the trauma of denigration over time
the trauma of being seen as less than
whether that's interpersonal abuse in
one household or it's it's societally
determined you know through how people
are seen and and can be then oppressed
through how they're seen so so it can be
dramatic can be non-dramatic but it
doesn't matter like if the end point is
that that
person maybe doesn't see themselves as
worth taking care of or if they do think
oh maybe they're worth taking care of
it's not going to be okay anyway then
those things aren't going to happen and
that's very very common it's very very
common you know when in the worst of my
traumas I still had my car serviced all
the time you know I I get my car
serviced every six months I want my car
to break down I want to take care of it
yet I was logging myself into the ground
right because I valued the car more than
I valued
myself and that's not on you mean that
literally or is that just like one of
those uh you're a conscientious person
and you know that you ought going back
to value system you ought to take care
of this thing that you spent money on
and it's just going to shorten the Lifan
that feels like conscientiousness in
play more than that you actually value
it more than yourself I could be wrong
well so where the the conscious and the
unconscious right are different right
and it's the unconscious that matters
and if you had come to me in that state
of time and said hey do you care about
your car more than yourself I would have
said absolutely not like it's a thing
right but then it would have been
interesting right if if someone next you
know maybe my My Future Self could have
gone back and said to myself well that's
interesting because you're behaving
exactly the opposite like you don't
actually care more in the sense of like
care meaning something right because
you're not taking care of yourself
anywhere near like you're taking care of
the car so so what's conscious is
different from what's unconscious now
that's a period of time where I felt a
lot of responsibility for my brother's
death I felt like oh my God like I'm
depressed too and what's going to happen
to me and I couldn't see a future and my
brother died by Suicide and and after
that when I think about like that was a
period of time where I took way better
care of the car than myself and I would
have told you of course I wouldn't do
that as I was doing exactly that why
because I didn't think I was worth
taking care of I felt such a sense of
Shame over what had happened and what it
had how it impacted my family and then
also I thought even if I can get myself
to think well there are people who love
me who think I'm worth taking care of
like it's not going to be okay anyway
right he and I were very similar we look
similar we act acted similar in so many
ways and I I couldn't see how life was
could possibly be okay so this is is the
evil of the trauma right that it takes
away right the ability to to see
ourselves for what we're worth and also
to see change because I didn't think
about myself that way
before but I was not aware of there was
no curiosity in me or even awareness
that like whoa you it has all changed
like was it always true that you are
never worthwhile and you were never
going to get better were you wrong
before this did something change now and
you think differently you know I me I
ended up getting myself some therapy
which was very very fortunate and I
think it just required if my memory
recollects you know is it was just basic
therapy to help me understand things
because I understood nothing when I
finally got to a desperate enough place
to like call the number on the back of
the card and Whisper that I needed some
therapy because I felt ashamed of that
too so so in order to get to the point
ofy how am I going to navigate my life
forward how am I going to understand
what's going on inside of me we have to
get over those initial hurdles so I I I
I didn't mean to not address the
question but I wanted to go back to that
you were talking about what happens in
therapy someone's sitting in front of
you but almost always not always but
almost always think about the selection
right for somebody to be sitting across
from me talking about this right I mean
they have to get there right so so there
has to be some thought of you know I'm
worth it I'll get myself there maybe
things will go okay many people don't
always think that but but there's so
many people people are never sitting in
front of someone because our society
doesn't help or teach us what I think we
should be helped to understand and
taught even as far back as elementary
school right which is like how the
responses happen in us right and and how
we can change without knowing it we can
hide ourselves away and we can think
differently about ourselves but we don't
teach that so tragically what would we
teach how how would we teach them to
think
differently well we could engender a
curiosity about self and we could teach
directly so just one example is bullying
right like people who are
bullied very very often in the vast
majority of the time do not get any
education or understanding about like
what is going on right so that who is
doing the bullying like why why is that
person responding in ways that allow
that person to say feel powerful right
by belittling someone else right that
like there's something going on here
where the person who's doing the
bullying has some deficit of self right
and is trying to make up for the deficit
of self by uh because that person is a
foot taller being able to thump the
person who's not a foot taller right let
me ask you because this will get to the
heart of what I want to better
understand uh kid comes to you he's
being bullied do you send him to therapy
or
MMA well so I'm not a Child and
Adolescent psychiatrist I'll see people
as young is about 16 but but the best
guidance get a 25-year-old then that's
being bullied what I want to understand
is are we trying to make the person more
courageous and more likely to stand up
to the bully or are we trying to help
the person look Inward and um understand
themselves because I really want to get
to the thing that people need to do if
they're in this situation right well it
very much depends on the person right so
so think about there are people who
could go to MMA and learn a lot of
defensive skills that make them feel
less afraid uh that maybe let them self
assert more in in reasonable ways and
like that's really good for that person
and if called upon to defend themselves
maybe they do it better do a better job
of it than they would have right but you
could see how other people would go to
two MMA classes and then get themselves
killed by confronting people right or
utilize the ability then to perhaps
learn something and be violent right to
then enact The Bullying I mean people do
that too if there's not enough self-
knowledge right so like who is the
person what will they gain from that
right but understanding our better is
always a good thing which is why that's
what we're we're trying to understand
right it's it's a process of trying to
understand oneself so we can understand
not just what is gone on in me but what
are my steps to changing that yeah
that's why I want to understand so what
cognitive behavioral therapy uh was a
profound find for me in terms of the
sense of you need to pattern interrupt
so if you're repeating something you
talked about this earlier you become
what you repeat if you're repeating
something negative you have to pattern
interrupt that you have to one recognize
that you're doing it two you have to
interrupt it and then three I have found
if you replace that with something
empowering you you just feel differently
in instantly and this is uh to me this
is all a game of neurochemical
management through the adjustment of
your frame of reference so what you
believe about yourself what you believe
about the world what you value in
yourself what you value think should the
world should value and so as you take
control of your thoughts which is the
very thing I would be trying to get
somebody to do you take control of your
thoughts and then you put in something
that allows them to recontextualize
themselves radically recontextualize
themselves so from victim to um hero I
don't know what the exact word to use is
there but certainly of your own life um
that feels like where we would want to
head but um so before we get to the butt
what's your take on cognitive behavioral
therapy is it useful for this moment of
getting people to recontextualize
themselves in the trauma yeah so I'm not
against cognitive behavioral therapy I
think it is a great tool in certain
situations and it can be a great tool in
combination with other tools right but
it is not a substitute for understanding
and cognitive behavioral therapy it
happens to lend itself to boundaries
around the therapy process so the idea
of okay we can package like 10 sessions
of CBT right for uh something that's
afflicting a person so okay 10 sessions
of CBT for depression right but you know
maybe depression is amenable to 10
sessions of CBT and it can get better in
some way but maybe that person needs
in-depth trauma work like where did
depression come from like what's the
manifestation of the depression there's
so much more to understand and the
packaging of SE BT as it's going to
solve all the problems really because
the packaging lends itself to Cost
Containment and throughput is a huge
problem right very often CBT is used to
polish the hood when you need to get
under the hood and look at what's in the
engine right and there are people who
can pretty readily back map like like
you said if you can use CBT to interrupt
negative thought processes right and
then you're inserting positive thought
process that you're not just making up
that are true right that that that then
call your attention to the to the facets
of you that are the ones you want to
feel proud of and the want want to
utilize going forward like that's great
but one you have to come up with that
what are you putting in its place why
are you putting in its place what does
it mean people can back map to that that
right I'm changing from a recurrent
self-denigrating negative thought that
has no place in my life to to
redirecting to what really I know is
true about me okay it maybe that some
people can do that right but many people
don't right they they don't back map to
to the understand ing from the CBT
process right so the idea is yes CBT is
a tool like there are many many many
tools and whatever we're doing if we're
in helping professions let's have all
the arrows in our quiver right and CBT
is a great Arrow to have in the quiver
it's not a substitute for understanding
it's not a solution to everything but
because it's packageable in a system
that values throughput and Cost
Containment it gets used for too
much okay that's very interesting um I
don't know if there are stats in this
but if you know I would love to know are
smart
people more or less likely to commit
suicide I don't know the answer I don't
know the answer to that in your practice
what's your guess who's more amenable to
treatment people because when you talk
about like understanding yourself and
all of that I worry that one of two
things is going to be true either people
that have a higher intellect are better
able to do that work
or people that have a higher intellect
are more likely to become neurotic and
looping because they can really
understand deeply all the ways that
they're a terrible person um I don't
know which is true I think I think a
reason I don't know the answer to that
is at least in my practice intelligence
has not been a a direct variable for
suicide so intelligence is important
like do I want to understand how
intelligent someone is absolutely right
but it's not where the money's at so to
speak right yeah what is the the
predictor so can a person connect with
other people is a person so lost in
themselves at times through depression
through misery uh through anxiety in
many cases through trauma are they are
they in themselves in a way that is so
blocked from connection with
others is if you if you look at how we
help each other it's through the people
that we are right there have been enough
studies done showing that you put a good
person in the therapist's seat that
person can help people through different
modalities right because they're doing
something more than oh I'm deploying
this modality that modality right
they're they're employing themselves
through a modality right but in in order
to do that why why do that right because
you're trying to connect with someone
right and often what happens in the
therapy process is something called
positive projective identification which
is the idea that if you feel so ashamed
of yourself and so hopeless and so
afraid right that you're shut down
inside of yourself and we can develop
some Rapport and some trust and some
ideas and thoughts can pass between us
and my real and true belief that like
you can be okay like you're not cursed
your life doesn't to go down the tubes
like oh my God I see more qualities
about you than I could shake a stick out
that are great ones like if if I like I
see that and I know that and I learn
that from you if we can be connected
then the person can take that start
taking that in right along with
understanding of you know if you didn't
feel ashamed of yourself before the
trauma and now you do let's talk about
why right that's not because you're weak
or because there's something wrong with
you it's because you're human right so
if understanding and Trust are built
then that positive projective
identification means the person takes in
in how you feel about them which is how
they can feel about them very often how
they did feel about themselves now I
didn't come out of the womb thinking
that my car was worth more than me right
and I didn't think that when I was
growing up you know there were people
who loved me I felt good about myself
and so so there was something in me that
I could then get back to of like right
like you did feel differently right but
often we need help through understanding
measures and through human connection
measures that's what's important if you
tell me what do I want to understand I
would not ask you give me three
questions about somebody and I'm trying
to help and guide them it wouldn't not
it would not be how smart are they or
intelligent it wouldn't be that but I I
would certainly ask can they are they
empathically attuned can they connect
what are the other two
oh you know they would all be about
sense of self you know is this a person
who has had who has had stable
relationships over time right because it
tells you a lot about a person that like
they can connect they they can have a
give and take right it's you know I
don't know what exactly what those three
questions would be but I I'll tell you
they would they would be my best effort
to discern down to um understanding that
person's ability to have positive
internal States right I mean that's what
I would be looking for because that's
what would tell me where do I think at
least at first blush can I really help
you right or like am I really worried
where I I might think oh is this a
person who um who I might more direct
towards a higher level of care right
sometimes if I see someone and what's a
higher level of so so maybe someone who
has who has suicidal thoughts and I'm
trying to understand like should they go
to a hospital or man can we really do
this outside of that setting right and
and a lot of that is determined by do I
feel like we can really connect you know
and and that's so important because
that's what makes all that's what makes
all the difference and it's not because
you want that person to like stay alive
because now you're their doctors so it's
not that right it's because someone else
really seeing us not Rec coiling from us
you know I I I had some surprise that
that therapist wanted to see me even
though like gosh this thing had happened
that was so awful and shameful like I
remember having thoughts like that and
you know how many people have said to me
like they're surprised that I don't
recoil when they tell me about the death
of their child when they tell me about
being
raped when they tell me about being
denigrated and bullied over years and
they're surprised I don't recoil because
they've internalized the shame of trauma
and even someone not recoiling let alone
someone having just a human reaction to
my goodness right I'm so
sorry let's I want to help as best I can
right that makes a difference a huge
difference to people and it's that that
we want and need if we're going to
help that's maybe the most uh insightful
thing about trauma um I've heard the
idea that this really is about
connection um I would love to hear and I
I fully understand this if we gave you a
week to think about it these would not
be the three questions but i' love a
third question that helps you understand
somebody's internal State whether
they're capable of positive internal
States I would want to get at if that
person is aware of or in touch with the
goodness inside of them so do people
normally break down sobbing at that
point and say there is no goodness left
inside of me like I can just just
imagine real trauma usually it's
something not asked directly right but
if I were let's say we're talking and
I'm worried about you right and I'm
trying to understand and I want to and I
think okay gosh I see that there's an
ability to be empathic right because we
seem kind of connected right and there's
a warmth in you that I can see when
we're connected or even if you're very
sad or depressed you know you're I can
tell you're responding to me in ways
that read my affect and and I sort of
learn that about you right I think okay
there's something really positive right
and then I also then learned that you've
been able to have some relationships
over time okay these are good factors
right I wouldn't ask directly about
goodness in you but I might say
something like go you things have been
so difficult right and when's the last
time like you really felt warmth or
helping from someone towards you or from
you towards someone else now I might be
interested in both ways but I'm most
interested in that moment maybe maybe in
that moment in have you are you able to
do things for others right because
people who see that they're they're
depressed they're terribly distressed
but they still understand inside of them
that they can do good things for others
you know they can still care for that
child uh they can still go do productive
work they can still volunteer somewhere
they still know that oh you know
somebody you know somebody felt the
grocery store and they broke something I
man it's terrible I help the person up
like okay you see that there's something
in you right and it's that awareness of
of goodness inside of oneself because
someone who doesn't feel good good they
see someone fall and go the other way
not because they're a bad person but
because they feel they're going to make
it worse if they get closer like what I
got to keep my Badness away from that
person I'll trip and fall on them you
know I mean I'm you know I'm putting
words to something that are just a
feeling right but but I don't think
those those things are not exaggerations
after two decades of doing what I do for
a living like there are real feeling
States inside of us so I I would want to
understand that too because if those
three things are intact then I'll be
much more likely to feel like okay we
can we can have a plan we can you know
things things can go forward it
decreases my worry and also in
situations that might not be that
worrisome right for it might tell me
like I really think that things can be a
lot better you know and I start to have
a read and I also while I'm we're having
that conversation I'm also coming into
some touch with what you know about
yourself right because there are plenty
of people who tell me about the
longitudinal friendships and family
relationships they have it over years
and years while they're telling me that
nobody cares about them and there's
nobody in their life right so so you
know you learn from what people overtly
say but don't rely on the part of the
iceberg that's above the surface of the
water which is also the message to the
person that's sitting at home like if we
don't just know ourselves by thinking
about ourselves it's not how it works
our brains don't work that way talk
right learn more through other means you
know that that's important because if
you think we know everything about
ourselves it's often The Reflex shame
it's the reflex negatives that are
telling us that but that's not the truth
all right so somebody that really though
does believe that nobody loves them uh
how can you convince them
otherwise well we have to understand
their life we have to to understand that
right like is that really
true sometimes it's true right I wrote a
story in the in the book that I wrote
about a person who had coutard syndrome
who thought he was dead yeah because no
one had cared for so long that he was
alive wow I it was so
just terribly sad and he was gregarious
and like funny and nice and he's exactly
the guy you'd want living next door to
you right but he just been alone for so
long that was true right now there's a
different set of things to try and do
then not everyone who isn't in in that
place has kotart syndrome and thinks
they're dead right I mean there ways we
can start talking about the goodness
inside if I remember from the book
though you weren't able to convince him
that he was alive no once a person gets
to that point which is by and large
through the literature because it's a
kind of case one might see a couple
times throughout a a career right then
it's very very difficult once a person
gets to that point but it was an it's an
extreme example that's so enlightening
about the way the brain works I want to
take a second to linger on this so the
book's called trauma by the way read it
fantastic I think people think they're
misunderstanding what you're saying he
actually thought he was dead like he
knew hey I'm here I'm in your office but
he thought it was absolutely comical
like actually comical he thought it was
funny that you were trying to check his
heart CU he's like I'm already dead like
what are you doing like when they take
me away to the morg you still going to
come and try to check my heart ha that's
really true and yes but the punchline is
this guy never stops thinking he's dead
right and the fact that okay one if you
take an infant and deny them physical
affection they die which is already
weird but the fact that as an adult
you've already lived some enormous
portion of your life you know how the
world works and you can become so
profoundly lonely that you end up
believing you're dead and your body
hasn't CAU up which I don't even
understand how they make that logic work
but they do that this happens enough
that there's a name for the syndrome
right that's way it's notas it doesn't
work in logic right I mean I'm dead and
I'm talking to you and have a
heartbeat that's logically impossible
what do they would you let them listen
with the stethoscope to hear their own
heart no because logic doesn't matter
when logic runs up against strong
emotion right like logic never ever ever
wins so logic says hey you're alive I
mean you got a heartbeat you're talking
you're you know you're having lunch
right um but if emotion says that you're
dead it doesn't matter what logic says
never does it it's never logical to run
into a burning building but if someone
you love is in it you know people run
right in right logic doesn't matter when
emotion is stronger those feel very
different to me so I will say that frame
of reference is what makes the person
running the burn building because they
like you said they love somebody inside
of it or they want to be the kind of
person that runs towards danger to help
other people like that I get now off
camera we were talking about frame of
reference frame of reference for me is
very much a mix of biology so Evolution
and your own beliefs that you've taken
control of so I think that one's very
much an interplay of we probably have an
instinct to protect people in our tribe
already or certainly our family and then
on top of that if you layer like that's
the kind of person I want to be
um I can see why somebody would do that
but card syndrome where your brain is
trying to understand why you are
profoundly alone it is trying to
understand why it is in just a profound
amount of pain and it suddenly goes oh
I'm dead and I don't know if it reaches
for that because it's even more painful
to think you're Unworthy of Love or it's
even more painful to think I have chosen
to live my life in a way that's so dumb
forgive me I know the audience freaking
out right now but that this is what I'm
saying they would have to think that
I've lived my life in a way that's so
dumb no one wants to be around me and I
can't bear to take responsibility for
that and instead the brain instead of
embracing those very simple
straightforward Solutions or reasons it
says oh you're dead that that to me is
an insight about how the human mind
works that anybody that wants to live
life well needs to understand that's
what you're up against that's how weird
your mind is that like one of my
favorite stories if you destroy
somebody's ability to generate uh
long-term memories so like the movie
momento you walk into the room this a
real study you walk into the room you
meet this person doctor puts a pin in
their hand they shake their hand it
pokes them it hurts they jerk their hand
back why'd you do that they leave the
room they come back the person the
patient does not remember meeting them
they reintroduce themselves they stick
out their hand to shake sh it the person
won't take their hand right but they
don't remember why but when you ask them
they will make up a reason they will say
oh people that wear white lab coats I
never shake their hands I don't shake
hands on Tuesdays whatever the brain
will make up the most ridiculous reasons
and I don't think that this only happens
when you get all the way to qard
syndrome I would say people are dealing
with this all the time your brain is
coming up with the dumbest possible
reasons and we are blind to it we don't
realize it's our brain making [ __ ] up it
is happening all the time but the
similarity so so I I would argue that
there is uh a very strong lesson to take
forward from the burning building
example the cotard's example and the
example you just gave of the person who
doesn't uh doesn't make long-term
memories right which is that logic does
not matter when it comes up against
strong emotion right so really strong
affect feeling and emotion limic things
there's logic things in our brain and
lyic things which are basically about
emotion right so in the first example
the burning building example the idea is
to the reason I use that example is to
make it something very immediate and
very strong there's not time like you
see the burning building right there's
not time like what kind of person do I
want to be like that's a logical process
that the brain does not have time to do
right logic says building burning run
other way emotion says person I love
inside run towards right it's like it's
that's what that's happens very very
rapidly what logic saides says doesn't
matter and the person runs towards the
building right in the cotard's example
it gets more complicated because there's
there's actually a um there's a verbal
construct right there's an idea of I am
dead right so the thought is then okay
how does a person logically come to that
like I must be dead because I haven't
lived a good life or and it just no it's
like the logic doesn't matter the person
believes that they are dead because they
feel dead in inside of themselves they
can't find any life right if if life
comes from the prison is a memory of
like what what is feeling alive feel
like like for example this this man had
a memory of like being a kid and like
people holding him like he knew that
existed right but he didn't have it in
an adult in his adult life for years and
years and years and and he didn't have a
pet he didn't like oh I can I can love a
an animal right for various reasons he
was just alone and then the life drained
out of him so so the question I mean I
think the ontological question about
cotard syndrome is was he really
dead right if if that was all gone the
things that make you feel alive then is
it really true that there's no life in
him in the way that matters like in the
in the limic emotional way I feel no
life right is that more powerful than oh
my heart you know my heart stops beating
you know you I mean my heart stops
beating so I die so what is that
actually going on there is is the the
Primacy of emotion inside over logic and
you might say he was gregarious he was
fun so there was life in him but he
couldn't see it he couldn't anchor to it
so his feeling of I am dead because
nothing happens but he could be socially
fasile he didn't feel it inside so in
the sense that most matters he was right
dude that's the most brutal thing I've
ever heard anybody say that is so gnarly
when I was reading the book I was like
God damn now I can't help would be
fascinated so if I'm right that this
ultimately is about radical
recontextualization that you have to get
the person who believes nobody loves
them or that they are unworthy to uh if
it's based on trauma to re-understand
the trauma and so in this Casa in this
guy's case the trauma is very slow it's
a very slow long duration drip of just
nothingness uh could we give him MDMA
and take him to
uh a old folks home I don't know
somewhere where there's going to be
people that would be so excited to talk
to him and suddenly it's like oh my God
I feel so connected to these people and
I can share my wisdom and they can share
theirs and whoa like they're hungry for
my attention I'm hungry for theirs could
we get them a puppy uh like would there
be a way even if it had to be
pharmacological where we could change
his state so dramatically that he would
feel alive again like don't you secretly
want to kidnap this guy and find out
sure absolutely do you think it would
work if we did the MDMA old folks home
puppy combo I think
yes I cannot imagine that it wouldn't
work in somebody so isn't it worth
trying with everybody right I met this
man in the hospital a day in the
hospital cost a lot of money he's in the
hospital for a long long time but I had
no ability to do anything except give
him two weeks of medicines when he left
I couldn't prescribe attach him to an
old folks home they they will make his
life better and he will make their life
better right get him a puppy let's get
him out in the let's get him out in the
world have somebody go and talk to him
all the time like I he could talk a lot
when I sat down with him I just didn't
have time to do it for for long let's do
that but we couldn't do any of that we
could spend thousands upon thousands of
dollars having him in a useless Hospital
stay but but we weren't going to do
anything to actually help him so we just
sent him home to the same loneliness
that he came from could we do better
than that yes is it shameful some shame
is is warranted is it shameful as a
society that we do not yes so coming
back to the guy with short-term memory
loss the doctor with a pin in his hand
they greet doesn't remember but he still
comes up with a logical explanation what
is the the unifying thread there if I'm
understanding correctly it's just that
when you have such a strong emotion
everything else just pales and
comparison right so so think about that
what an amazing example it is right if I
can't make long-term memories and we
meet and shake hands and there's a pin
in your hand like that feels bad right
logically I might think I got to okay I
see who you are and like I'm not going
to trust you anymore right so okay but
as soon as you walk out the door the
logic goes out the window right that's
why you know that what seems like a
ridiculous was called confabulation oh I
don't trust people in white lab Coates
or it's Tuesday and I don't you know the
person saying something we say it's a
ridiculous explanation or is it that it
just totally doesn't
matter right what's the difference of
why right I know what I need to know the
logic doesn't matter the emotion tells
me what to know which is don't shake
your hand the last time that hurt right
so think about that even the backmapping
to a ridiculous logical explanation
doesn't really matter because the logic
doesn't matter what matters is the
feeling right all right radical
recontest sexualization we put drugs on
the table certainly talk therapy um this
feels like it's just an incredibly
nuanced difficult thing to do but I
would love to know if there is a
standard procedure to get somebody who
does not
believe who doesn't believe the things
that would allow them to have a positive
internal State again how do you get them
back back moving in the direction of
that without drugs first and then we'll
get into your thoughts on how drugs can
be
useful well the first step is assess
like do they need drugs right like
sometimes if people are very very
depressed of having three panic attacks
a day me I can't we can't do the therapy
part together right so so with the
presumption being the drugs aren't
needed right which most of the time
they're not we don't need medicine most
of the time to get that person to a
place where they can to access their
internal state right then we come at it
again the idea is to have all the arrows
in the quiver right and which is why you
you're referencing some of the novel
medication arrows right in pathogens and
psychedelics and we're learning so much
more about how can they help us right
but even putting that aside we're now
thinking about the therapy arrows right
there are different routes of approach
to different people right some people
are very intellectualized right and then
I might say okay the next time we're
meet going to meet I might think or
might say to you let's like really talk
about how it works you know like it's
it's like super interesting right like
how our brains and our brain biology
works that like tells us often how we
feel right like so so you're telling me
like how just awful and ashamed of
yourself you feel and how different and
like right I felt the same way right
because we're human right so let's talk
about all this human stuff that goes on
inside of us and person might like
really love that right because when it's
true it's real and it starts to chip
away at like I feel this way because
there's something wrong with me or
there's something bad about me right
there may be other people who are not
interested in that at all not able to
follow that at all and then I might
choose a very very different route right
so if you're telling me for example that
you're unlovable right then I might be
interested okay I'm I'm thinking in my
head from some of what you told me and
you know you did say something you said
some positive things about in elementary
school like right so let me like feel
about around that more and then maybe
you're going to start telling me about
you know some teacher who is like so
lovely to you and like so support even
though things were awful at home like
now you're telling me that you are not
unlovable right but I'm getting there
through curiosity right it's going for
what will be most helpful based upon who
that person is because what am I trying
to do is come at ultimately the false
premise right that you're either cursed
or unlovable or things will never go
well or things go well in all facets of
your life but it will never be that way
professionally or things go that way in
all facets of your life but you'll never
have good romance right like we're
trying to at false lessons and there
going to be different routes of how to
get there different Maps right for
different people depending upon the
idiosyncrasies of them and of what's
happened to them but it sounds like at
least um I have an emerging
understanding that there is some
universals at play here which is uh
trauma leads people to get into a point
where they no longer believe the things
they need to believe in order to have a
positive internal experience that in
order to get them back there I am going
to have to find a way to get them to
connect with other people and it seems
like extreme isolation is always going
to be bad that there really isn't which
I wanted there to be but I whatever is
true is true uh I really wanted there to
be a way where somebody even by
themselves even if nobody ever wraps
themselves around them that they would
be able to um leverage their frame of
reference in order to build a new belief
system about themselves the world and
values such that they could earn their
own respect and get moving in a positive
direction right but it some people can
right some people can do that many
cannot so do we leave behind the many
who cannot I mean it's a societal choice
right some people can do what you just
said but it's a tall order you can be
pretty smart and pretty worldly and have
a lot of friends and a lot of resources
and totally not be able to do that but
let's talk about San Francisco so San
Francisco is and look I'm on the outside
of this I'm a headline reader I want to
be very clear um
but having said that it looks like
compassion gone wrong it's when you
societally just want good things for
people you want to love them uh but you
never hold them accountable you never
ask them to do anything and so instead
of saying stop doing drugs on the street
you give them clean needles and I get
why that feels like a compassionate
thing but it seems to create more people
on the street doing drugs not less well
the idea of giving someone something
without any accountability that's not a
that's not compassion right that's
self-indulgence right compassion helps
people but it also helps them help
themselves right even if you're just
kind to somebody in the moment like you
hope they'll take that kindness away
even if you're not going to see them
again right so so clean needles
absolutely can be compassion right if
it's one reduction of suffering right
maybe so so needles that are dirty
spread illness and illness can spread to
other people who haven't used the needle
right so so there can be broader
societal reasons right there can also be
look we want to help you
not get an illness that you might not
recover from right while we're also
trying to help you take a path where you
don't have to be on the drug right so so
it's like what is actually being done
for someone right if what's being done
for something is something that feels
good for the doer even if that doer is a
society in the short term then all that
is is self-indulgence and you might say
well if it puts a roof over someone's
head for a night okay great yeah that's
better than the roof not being over
their head for a night but does it
really matter when it's not there the
next night right I mean real compassion
helps people help themselves right it
doesn't just leave them flat and I think
that's the difference in a lot of what
we do like think of it fits with the
short-term mentality of I did something
for you right like I was compassionate I
feel better about myself it fits with
the rapid throughput with the you know
four to five patients in an hour for the
internal medicine or family practice
doctor and overuse of medicines right
because we don't stop and stand back
right I mean the thought was we have a
medical system that's spending how many
thousands of dollars a day to
hospitalize my poor patient with qard
syndrome we're going to we're going to
buy him a dog too right but maybe we
could have save like 95% of that money
and done what he needed right it would
help others but like we have to have a
conception that doesn't have this kind
of narrowness of blinders on and sees
people in a societal context sees our
health in its psychological personal and
societal context whether it's physical
health and mental health and if we don't
do that the narrow frame of reference
all those blinders on uh combined with
Cost Containment and throughput ends up
it ends up with good throughput right
but it's not making people healthier and
it's ultimately not containing costs
it's very interesting I want to go back
to isolation in the book you talk about
um there was a guy that was in solitary
confinement for 20 or 25 years I it was
something absolutely
outrageous what does somebody who's had
that kind of isolation what happens the
the story I think was was actually
someone who one might have thought from
all the socialization would have taken a
different path than he than he took he
took a path of kindness and help when
absolutely everything he'd been taught
would tell him to do exactly the
opposite so that that was a story of
actually like that there can be human
Beauty even when Society is pushed so
far against it and of course he bore
responsibility for many of the decisions
in his life so I'm not taking
responsibility away from him but he
still found goodness and made a really
big difference in someone's life and
then was so happy with himself because
he he hadn't hurt anybody in fact quite
the opposite he'd really help someone
the the idea of someone who's in
solitary confinement for so long and
again this is in the place to try and
think about what are the criminal
justice elements and all but really what
you're talking about is isolation and
other than certain States or conditions
that that are sort of clinically
relevant but not found that often right
basically if we put those things aside
we are not built to be alone and to be
isolated right we are built to be
interconnected and you know that's
always been an issue for humans one way
or another are we too interconnected and
then that there's more conflict between
us or can we be on top of one another
but not interconnected like you know the
aloneness that people describe in big
cities where you know people are amongst
other people with alone so so you know
there are many ways in which this can
occur Geographic Al or psychologically
even if not geographically But
ultimately it is about having connection
it is about feeling connection and if
you're deprived of that for one reason
or whatever the reason may be if you
don't have it in your life we begin to
lose what what animates us you know
we're built to be generative right we're
built ultimately to try and make things
better in the world around us that's why
we can nurture children and and you know
if we see a child on the street we can
help someone else's child too like there
many many ways in which we're built to
be interconnected and to make the world
around us better and if someone takes
that away from you right that is awful
probably I've often thought that my
patient with card syndrome was so
gregarious right if he were built with
less of that you know say he felt
uncomfortable around people I don't know
maybe this wouldn't have happened what
do I know right maybe he would have read
a lot of books and felt some sense of of
living through you know Adventures he
was reading I don't know but but he
wasn't built that way like you know this
was a guy who like loved seeing me each
day just just as he loved ribbing me
about the waste of my time like he was
built for something he he didn't get for
far far far too long which is why he
didn't feel alive it's like it's never
good to have that isolation from Human
connection and from Human goodness right
flowing from one and to one all right
did you see the movie
uh Cast Away I did not oh my God you
have to see this movie so I don't see
enough movies I know I said I'm going to
say no to that and you're goar no but
the great news is should you make the
time you have a real treat so uh Tom
Hanks plays a character who ends up
getting stranded on a deserted island
and he is isolated if I remember right
for 5 years okay and it's really
fascinating as a screenwriter you have
to find a way to make that interesting
and so a character not talking it's just
going to be way harder for them to show
emotion it's going to be harder for the
audience to really latch on and pay
attention so they come up with a really
great gimmick which is that um he ends
up there's a volleyball that washes a
Shore with him cuz he's in a FedEx plane
that crashes and so a bunch of the FedEx
items wash up one of them is a
volleyball and he ends up putting a a
like print on it to make it look like a
person and gives it like a smiley face
and he ends up talking to it and really
developing a relationship with it and
while that almost certainly was created
as a device for the screenwriter to find
a way for Tom Hanks to do something that
the audience could relate to it's also
pretty in ful in terms of what you would
need to do to keep your sanity if you're
in isolation and so I'm wondering if you
knew somebody was going to be on a
desert island or unfortunately maybe
more likely in solitary confinement what
are things that they could do so reading
let's say that that's off the table is
journaling something like talking to
yourself uh remembering positive
memories like how would you have a
person make themselves resilient to
isolation
I'll answer that but I got to say I
swear this is true when you said the
movie Cast Away an image came to my mind
which was Tom Hanks holding that
volleyball right and they say okay I'm a
psychiatrist so that's maybe the that's
exactly the image it would come to my
mind I think that a reason for that
maybe that was publicized and all but
but also because when I think about like
Cast Away and prison lost on a deserted
island I think the lack of human
connection like that's what's most
important right like the volleyball is
so important right because that's
perhaps how the person survived by being
able to conceive of and in a sense bring
to life an other right which is why
journaling which when we're writing and
or speaking there are different things
that happen in our brains that reify
like kind of make things more real so it
is good to talk or to write as opposed
to just thinking and it's good to keep
alive in a sense in a very real sense
the people that we've taken inside of us
right so to sit and imagine people that
are close to you that you won't be
seeing on the deserted island or in
solitary confinement right if if you had
a good experience I'm making this up
with your sister growing up like think a
lot about her call her to mind evoke her
right evoke you when you were with her
as a child evoke you as you are now
right keep real yourself as a person and
others keep it real in words you may say
to yourself in words that you may write
the same way a person keeps track of
time we have to keep a structure right I
remember reading at one point uh uh
Nelson Mandela describing right what he
had you know what was it like you know
trying to survive and to try and keep
some sense of the passage of time and so
we need a structure around the passage
of time and the passage of days we also
need a structure inside about who am I
and what's the constellation of the
world in which I live in and and when I
read things like that I'm also aware
that the person is describing a rich
inner life right and and they may not be
describing like I really cultivated my
rich inner life because that's how I
didn't lose myself but the person that
automatically is is doing that right and
that's how they're keeping life inside
of them when ostensibly life has been
taken away from them I mean again not
their physical life but but life as we
as we live it amongst other people
brought up Nelson Mandela uh I want to
tie him to Victor Frankle and the wife
of um Tom hanks's character and Cast
Away so you talked about calling forth
people so there's two things at play
there's people in human connection and
that has been I think the biggest theme
that we've talked about today is the
absolute crushing need for that but
there's also meaning and purpose the two
most impactful books probably that I've
ever read are man search for meaning by
Victor Frankl and Long Walk to Freedom
by Nelson Mandela uh both of whom I
don't know that I am uh impressive
enough to do what they did like I I
stand in awe of what they survived in a
way that scares
put meaning to their life how does one
put meaning to their suffering and how
does meaning play with trauma and is
that part of this Grand
or that nothing will ever work or that
you will only be continually hurt I
could list the Litany of things I've
heard over 20 years for the next several
hours that that tells a person you don't
get to have meaning you can't have
meaning meaning is not for you right it
crushing you use the word crushing
that's the right word to put to it we
need meaning and meaning is is
not described or contained in the way we
often in a classical sense contextualize
people the idea that there are drives in
us that there is an aggressive or self-
assertion drive and there's a pleasure
drive or a a relief from suffering drive
so so the thought that like look I want
food and shelter and I want to be able
to reproduce and I I want someone to be
there to take care of me if I make it to
be older and they're limited resources
and I have to I have to fight for that
right that's what the idea that there
are those two drives would tell us but
that doesn't explain at all Victor
Frankle or what Victor Frankle wrote it
does not explain at all Nelson Mandela
or what Nelson Mandela wrote I don't
know about Tom Cruz's character's wife
in castleway I'm presuming she wasn't a
volleyball so I don't that I'll have to
learn more about but but but look I
presume it's along the same lines of
like you you have to make meaning and
feel meaning and and Trauma can take
that away and that's why resilience and
persever like these things are so
important and we don't have an
understanding or an answer to them you
know there was a joke I heard at times
in my training which was if you find the
resilience Gene go right to Stockholm
right but there isn't of course go col
PR got it but but the joke was like
there's not a resilience gen right like
it's a complex constellation of of
genetic factors and nurture factors and
early childhood experience is so
important and you know neurochemical
factors are like there's so much there
right but that's like the magic of
humans who survive and thrive amidst
adversity right it's resilience and we
can help to engender resilience in
people people find resilience through
meaning right I think that's the message
of those books right of the the great
thinkers right is we we have to have
meaning in order to persevere to be
resilient like you know every morning
people in the concentration camp had to
get up right they had to wake up and
realize they were there there has to be
an attachment to meaning beyond the self
that could be other people or it could
be God or something greater than S but
we can help people have that meaning do
we do nearly enough to help people have
that meaning no we sent my patient home
from the hospital with coutard syndrome
alone with no plan for anything other
than to be alone so no we're not helping
people in the way that we need to so
that trauma it can be other things too
but in my very strong opinion by and
large trauma drives people to places of
feeling no meaning and therefore no
worth and and often therefore no drive
to continue so how do you help people
ascribe meaning to trauma is probably
the most important thing something very
bad has happened to them and they have
to put it in its
place how do you do it how do you put
meaning to something well first we have
to look at the truth of it right and the
truth very often is that just something
really bad has happened right that that
abuse and denigration coming through the
lens of prejudice is real right the
death of that person is real the injury
is real and we need to honor that now
can there be a silver lining so to speak
of of negative things yes there can be
and that's not a polyana statement to
make and when people make it in a poana
way we'll turn this good this nothing to
get someone who who suffered bad trauma
to recoil from you more than saying that
like we have to acknowledge it it's bad
right there's nothing good about having
been abused or denigrated like there's
nothing good about this right it's bad
but we can see it for what it is and for
what it means and what it doesn't mean
someone really hurt you there's shame
there but the shame is on the person who
hurt you not you right let's see it for
for what it really is and then we can
move forward and we can make something
good right has good come of my brother's
suicide I think I think it has was a
huge part of why I went to medical
school and I like to think I've helped a
few people along the way and that it's
made me it's allowed me to maybe be a
more compassionate person than I might
otherwise be all of my other flaws and
faults aside right that like it's done
something for me and allowed me to do
something for others that doesn't mean I
think my brother's suicide was a good
thing and I have to be able to see that
and understand that and then I have to
be able to see it for what it is and
what it isn't do you knowingly say I'm
ascribing this meaning to that as a way
to
um give it meaning feel better like I
for me to really acknowledge the mental
Jiu-Jitsu helps I don't want to be
oblivious to it I want to say okay this
really horrendous thing has happened I
want to be hyper aware of my response I
want to be hyper aware of the tools that
I need to deploy I need to find meaning
to this I need to ascribe meaning to
this um do you do that do you mean with
myself or yeah with your brother's
suicide just to be really Point Blank
you were saying I like to think but I'm
saying do you do you spend time
attaching that to that and saying I went
to medical school partly because of my
brother I have helped people uh in his
name I don't know if that's how you
think of it
but yes yes I I do think that right I do
think okay what were the sequella of
that event right SE I don't know what
came after it like okay the event
happens was it consequences is all
negative right so so it's what were the
downstream effects of it what happened
after it right and there were things
that happened that in the clarity of
hindsight I can see were just very bad
right and they LED bad
places then there are things that I can
see LED good places like for example it
gave me some freedom to go do something
I wanted to do so I did want to help
people but I also all of a sudden felt
very naked in terms of knowledge of the
human condition and I thought I went to
college and I've been out and about in
the world and all of a sudden I was like
oh my God I don't understand anything I
felt so afraid and vulnerable so part of
my drive was to learn and experience and
make myself safer part of my drive was
to be helpful to others but I put so
much pressure on myself that I would
never have gone back to school and
thought hey are going to you know people
were telling me when I left my job like
whoa like you're not going to you know
you're not going to have a real income
for 10 years and like people are saying
things that scared me right and and that
that would have scared me too much
before but it gave me permissiveness of
like look I'm alive and I'm and I'm
healthy enough to go do this why would I
not try doing it right it emboldened me
in a way maybe some of that was through
desperation a desire to make meaning at
the time I didn't fully understand it I
knew some of those things but in
retrospect you know hindsight can be a
lot closer to 2020 if we think and
explore ourselves which I haven't done
this all on my own I mean I've had
wonderful therapy I I'll thank Gregory
Hamilton who's been my therapist now for
12 12 years for helping engender Insight
in me and and help me to be able to do
this and say hey there's a life
narrative in me in which meaning has
been made and goodness has been made of
something that I see as bad and
negative okay so we can obviously find a
path to reconnecting to other people
when something has happened in the past
we can find a way to ascribe meaning to
something that happened in the past how
do you help somebody who is under
tremendous pressure right now it's it's
an ongoing trauma and I think it's
useful to focus on an ongoing trauma
that one chooses so this is born of Lady
Gaga and um her break and I'm very
curious when you look at that are you
like you need to retire like this is too
much or are you going here's how we
become either more resilient or more
courageous or whatever I'm assuming it's
it's more mental Jiu-Jitsu it's it's a
reframe but what does that look like as
somebody and I'm asking I'm not asking
for a friend I'm asking for myself as
somebody that like really wants to push
the envelope of what is possible what I
will routinely run up against are my own
limitations so I'm always trying to push
my limitations a little bit further out
become more resilient be able to handle
more one do you just advise people like
that stop you're just going for too much
or are there tactics that one can deploy
to think about it a new to be able to go
farther right we hopefully what what I
can engage someone in is a premise we
can both agree on right so look if your
life is overwhelming like things aren't
going to be okay right it's a pretty
straightforward premise um if you're
overwhelmed like you're not going to
navigate forward in a way that gets you
what you want so if we can agree about
that and sometimes it takes a little
time right but if we can agree about
that then we can look at okay how and
why is your life overwhelming right
maybe what you're
doing you could actually do quite well
and quite readily if you took better
care of yourself in other ways right if
you you know exercise diet you know
different choices about life structure
so maybe we need to look at that that
what you're feeling overwhelmed by
doesn't have to be overwhelming for you
but are you taking care of yourself
right maybe you are taking really good
care of yourself in the sense of feeding
and watering and sleeping and all of
those things of self right
but look it's just unreasonable right
what you're trying what you're foisting
on yourself given I'm very very
fortunate that I get to see so many
people who are very high achieving they
have very high distress tolerance now
it's wonderful to have high distress
tolerance in many many many ways but
that's also the person who can take on
way way way way way too much right and
like look I don't care how capable a
person is there aren't 30 hours in your
day right there aren't you know there
aren't even 25 in your day day right so
sometimes there has to be like why is it
that you would be asking more of
yourself than is of yourself than is
possible right and we're not talking
about like can you stretch yourself and
be at your best right we're talking
about things just make no sense like you
know nobody can do that right and that's
why oh people who try and do that the
outcome isn't good you know we we we see
that so we have to be R we have to look
at it because you know logic is also
very important right we have to
understand like what are you actually
doing like why are you overwhelmed we
have to understand that growing a
business is hard and if you're in the
thick of it you know that as your
business grows new challenges will be
coming at you from every conceivable
angle netw Suite is the number one Cloud
Financial system streamlining accounting
financial management inventory HR and
more manage risk get reliable forecasts
and improve your margins right now you
can download netsuite's popular kpi
checklist designed to give you
consistently excellent performance
absolutely free netsuite.com
Theory we learned earlier in the
interview here that the logic doesn't
matter me anybody else is driven by
emotion primarily so in fact do you
think of um somebody who is hyper driven
do you just assume that they're pushing
back against a trauma
like often not always but but think
about here is again is how logic is
subservient to emotion right if you come
in and tell me I'm overwhelmed and I
just can't take it anymore right okay
you're telling me something right I want
to understand it better right then let's
say we're talking and you're going to
tell me things I can understand through
logic well how many hours do you sleep I
ask you that okay are you how are you
eating are exercising who's in your life
are you taking care of yourself are you
drinking too much like I start learning
about it right and you're going to tell
me we're going to exchange information
based upon logic and here's what often
happens the person uses logic in a
wonderful way that that conveys all the
details and tells us a story but all of
that is wrapped up
right and and has like the blanket of of
where emotion right affect that lyic
stuff drives a person right so you may
very very very logically tell me why you
have to have 30 very very busy hours in
your day or you're not good enough right
I'm like okay I I me we have to
understand the logic to understand how
we're going to come at that but the
premise is driven by something that's
emotional otherwise the logic would say
hey I should stop that right I mean I'm
a very capable person and I'm very
driven but there's like there's only so
far right you know by the way the last
three times I did this you know twice I
ended up in the hospital like you know
why would logic not say to behave
differently it's because logic matters
in the details of all of it we need to
know that but logic doesn't matter in
the drive so then I become curious and I
wish for you to be curious about why is
it that you have to be more than human
right like why is it that what you as a
very capable person say in this example
or why is it that what you can do in 24
hours if you're really taking good care
of yourself isn't enough or why is it
that you think you can be extremely
productive and still feel okay when
you're not taking care of yourself you
know so then we it's the
emotion that that the emotional part
that's driving everything but we need to
understand the logic within that in
order to say okay like we have to have
communication and back and forth of us
of information and decide how we're
going to come at
it interesting okay so um I may not be
the best EX example on this because so
in fact I'll give you my breakdown of
what I do I have a a stance around
overwhelm that I teach my students all
the time which is I don't do overwhelm
and what I mean by that is not that I
have infinitely strong shoulders though
I I am constantly trying to push how
much weight I can carry comfortably but
I'm very pragmatic about one's
biological needs so my thing is I'm
never going to do things that cause me
to lose sleep if I'm losing sleep then I
know immediately that I have to change
something so what I tell myself is doing
less is always an option so if I'm
starting to feel that rev up where I can
feel my mind it's it's starting I I
don't even like saying overwhelm uh
because I have such an identity of I
don't do overwhelm but when I can feel
that state that leads most people to
becoming overwhelmed uh I do what I call
downshifting so I force my mind to slow
down so I don't think oh what more can I
do what more can I take on on I think
how do I relax how do I slow down what
do I eliminate um because doing less is
always an option and so I'm very careful
not to build my self-esteem around being
able to do more um because that's a very
dangerous game but what what I'm really
fascinated by is so you have a high
performer like Lady Gaga but the thing
that freaks me out about her life that I
recognize in myself would be a danger is
the bigger stage you play on the more
sense of like hey these people maybe
they got a babysitter they came out they
spent a ton of money to be at this
concert and now I need to perform and um
there are all these promoters and
managers and everything they're all
counting on me to do more show dates and
so and also I'm I just know that not one
singer ahead of me ever has lasted
forever right everybody goes away kids
today don't even know who Michael
Jackson is so it's like right so no
matter how big you are just poof gone so
there's a sense of making hay while the
sun shines and so there's all these sort
of innate pressures and to me to play
the game well it it isn't just to do
less it is also to figure out how you
can do more without distressing yourself
so you want to push your tolerance you
want to make sure that you don't value
yourself for the amount that you can do
and you uh also want to know that doing
less is always an option so it's it's
this really interesting
thing but when I look at other people
that have achieved way more than I've
achieved I'm just like whoa like they
they have either burned themselves out
in a way that I'm not willing to or they
have figured out how to press that um
their Breaking Point farther away and so
when I hear a story like lady gagas I
secretly I'm over here like I want you
to tell me that you have some secret
formula where she can just reframe hey
you can't worry about what other people
think or whatever hopefully not that TR
and now you can like play on the biggest
stage ever that's secretly what I want
to hear and and here again I know I keep
saying this but this is so important
it's all personalized like who is that
person so just one example you said like
sleep is inviable for you right like you
can't change the sleep right so you know
yourself well enough to know that right
for me I can change the sleep but other
things I can't change right so it's like
know thyself right because that's how we
know how to take care of ourselves and
understand ourselves so then beyond
those kind of maybe more basic or
mechanical parameters right we then look
the interesting part are the intangibles
about the person right so so for example
very high distress tolerance high levels
of conscientiousness and high levels of
empathy or empathic Attunement is
wonderful right but boy doesn't that
create a liability right like there's
another side of everything right every
good thing can be too much of that good
thing can be harmful to that person so
that's the person who's going to see
like there's more for me to do people
want more of me there's more good to do
right and and because there's a high
level of distress tolerance that person
can overextend themselves way more than
the vast majority of people can and
they're in a setting often that
facilitates that that says right right
more is better that's thinking more
about that than the person then the
person's conscientious right wants
everything to be great right and they're
empathic they understand how people feel
and how they make them feel and and that
is a recipe for the person being so
well-meaning and wanting to take care of
themselves but just pushing themselves
farther than they can be pushed and
that's where the lesson often that I I
find that I'm bringing to people who
have high distress tolerance are
conscientious are empathic and are in
the public eye in a way that they can do
a lot of good you know they can do a lot
of good through their presence in the
world just one example right they tend
to get themselves overwhelmed because
they're trying to do more than a human
can do right and and then what we're
talking about is like human standards do
apply like you this is a very very
capable human but like you have to allow
yourself humanness right so now we're
coming at that right is it true I mean
sometimes we I'm saying is it true that
you have to be more than human to be
okay right and I at times we'll be
saying that to someone now that might be
someone who has wealth and fame and
wants to do certain things that to to
make the world better it may also be the
person who is quietly toiling away you
know taking care of five kids and has a
job in a home to take care of and you
know and feeling bad about themselves
because they can't shoulder it all
because no human can right so so the
limits of humanness and recognizing
works against shame right because if you
think you're supposed to be more than
human you end up failing right and
feeling ashamed of yourself feeling
feeling like you failed so the person
has to know themselves enough so that
they know what works for them what
doesn't you need sleep but maybe the
thing that I need you don't right so we
got to know ourselves and what works for
us and what doesn't work for ourselves
and then we have to understand what are
reasonable limits right and do they
change right I mean I see people who say
after having a pneumonia real example it
takes people a while to recover but
they're furious with themselves that
they can't do you know two weeks after
the pneumonia what they were able to do
before and and the rest is like whoo
like you know you to be kind to yourself
you have to nurture yourself like you
can do all that again but just not now
like you're not supposed to be superum
like after humans like break a leg or
get pneumonia they it takes recovery
time right but that's when we're getting
at often what is the trauma that tells
that person that they have to be more
than human right and you know sometimes
people want so much of me and I'm so
empathic and I've labored under I need
to do more for so long maybe it's that
maybe that person was very vulnerable
when they were younger and they learned
the only way I'm going to take care of
myself is to be superhuman maybe they
learned that they weren't good enough
unless everything was an A+ right I mean
we don't know where it comes from but if
that's the lesson there's something
traumatic at the root of
it yeah for sure
so as one sort of last take on that how
do you
balance Grace for yourself love for
yourself acceptance of your limitations
a willingness to be human with wanting
to push yourself and really taking
advantage of what I think is the
greatest gift of The Human Experience
which is you can get better right
right
well it has to start from a premise that
say look I can I can make my life better
you know I think I can make my life good
and then let me try and understand
myself because what you just described
is hard to do right so if a person
doesn't have the ability to say go out
and get Psychotherapy right then reflect
meditate talk to people around you about
life you know plenty people talk a lot
but they're not talking about each other
right you know we talk about hey what's
up with you we haven't talked in a while
about like what's going on in Life or
you've looked a little different you
know one way or another like people talk
really about life reflect about life
write about life think about yourself be
curious about yourself right I'm never
not going to therapy I don't care what
happens my if you say nothing could ever
go wrong again I know that's not going
to be true but I'll go to therapy
because it's hard to understand
ourselves and it's hard to keep the
plate spinning of life even when we are
trying to be conscious of taking care of
ourselves so so if one has whatever
abilities or resources we have to
understand ourselves and to be curious
about ourselves and others and people we
love around us take advantage of it
because what you just describe like
that's when people are living healthily
right that's when people can roll with
the punches pretty well when things go
negative you know in a negative way and
and they can feel good about the things
that go positive and they can make
rational attributions like hey that
thing went well and it's not just luck
like people will say everything bad is
my fault everything good is luck right I
mean how many times do we hear that of
take responsibility if something didn't
go well and you're a part of that like
look at that right the goal isn't to let
people out of their responsibility right
you know if you're driving along
carefully and somebody broadside you
like I I can't map that to your
responsibility but if you know you
weren't really paying that attention the
way that you would really like to have
been like just take ownership of that
right it doesn't mean it's your fault
but it's like I want to look at
everything I want to understand how I
can bring myself to Bear to make my life
better and I want to do that when when
they're negative things and I want to do
that when there are positive things I
don't want to Discount the positive as
luck or nobody loves me or nobody cares
about me nobody likes me oh I was out
from work for three weeks and you know
14 people sent flowers you know or like
really care to call you know don't don't
make yourself special in a negative way
right it's something I often you know
find myself saying wow that's
interesting so that so it's about
understanding CU what you described is
hard but it is not impossible and it's
not impossible even when there's a
strong current for a person to swim
against and that current isn't
necessarily isn't determined by
socioeconomic status right or you know
or by some other demographic where where
where people will think like I'm not
going to be able to do that right it it
can be as hard whether people have
resources or don't or like you know
there's there's no Arbiter of how hard
that is right other than if people are
really struggling obviously to put a
roof over their head and food like we
need to help as a Society people more
but to not be deterred because I've
never had therapy before or you know I
can write an introspect but I I don't
have insurance to go get someone to help
me or I can buy one book but not five
it's like just start doing something
because that factor of does it register
in you I can understand myself better I
can make my life better right maybe I'm
not responsible for the bad things that
are running over and over in my head
that factor is worth more than all the
seemingly logistical things that money
and resources can provide so don't be
deterred if you don't feel that you have
what it takes even if you have anyone to
talk to you have you can have a pen and
paper right like there are things we can
do to help ourselves and don't be
deterred because that resolve that
awareness maybe life can be better often
matters more than any other
Factor yeah I I love that a lot I think
that that's an area that people um fail
to understand and I I think this is the
biggest trap about trauma is it leads
you to believe that you're not going to
be able to improve things and so uh I
always push back against too much
self-acceptance it's like I do want
people to love themselves but I want
them to earn that love and the reason is
in fact it's not that I want people to
it's that there is an algorithm running
in your mind given to you by Evolution
that demands that you earn your own
Respect by doing things that you believe
are valuable now the things you believe
are valuable are going to be born of
both
ution uh again with those algorithms and
things you've chosen to believe but you
can't stand in front of the mirror and
just say I love you I love you I love
you unless you can tie that two reasons
I love you because and unfortunately I
think our I think everybody's love is
conditional even your mother's and
certainly your own love of yourself is
highly conditional and the sooner that
people Embrace that and realize one of
the great joys of life is getting better
growing pushing and improving uh you
just have to be very careful about what
you build your self-esteem around in
fact speaking of that do you talk to
people about what they build their
self-esteem around this feels like a
really important thing what do you
encourage them to build their
self-esteem on relevant to that question
and everything that you just said about
wanting to look in the mirror and be
able to love yourself and respect
yourself and feel good about yourself is
we always want to know what we don't
know right if we don't know what we
don't know we will fall victim to it so
understanding that we can't know
everything about ourselves that the
process of understanding ourselves isn't
just taking stock of what I know now but
it's curiosity about ourselves it's the
kind of things that come out to us
through meditation or reflection or
conversation it is so important to know
that we can't just look in the mirror
and know everything about ourselves like
a great majority of what goes on inside
of ourselves is hidden from us it
doesn't mean that our conceptions of
self can't be both good and con I but we
need to be
respectful of of the things that we
don't understand and even that there are
things that we don't understand because
it is off it is very often that from
which we start building the the strong
sense of self right because we we have
to start off from a place that is real
right it's why I think I had said to you
when we were talking before that like my
math minor as I I often say is I think
you know the most helpful uh academic or
intellectual thing I've ever done right
it taught me to look at things in a
logical linear manner right because
logic is important like there times it
doesn't get trumped by emotion we're
using it for understanding right so we
want to be able to bring logic to Bear
to try and understand ourselves but part
of that process tells us that we want to
bring logic to bear in understanding our
own lives that we can construct
narratives that we can go look at
ourselves and say okay wait what
happened when like we can use logic to
accept that that thing we were kind of
pushing under the surface maybe actually
was really traumatic and and I can think
about the changes in me before and after
so we use logic to construct the story
of self right and the story of self is
very interested in us right it's
interested in ourselves and it's
interested in the things that have gone
on or are going on underneath the
surface because that tells us about the
things that are more powerful than logic
I might be able logically describe to
all sorts of things about myself at a
certain stage of life and all sorts of
different things at another stage in
life right and maybe the things became
negative in the in the context of trauma
but I need to understand that oh
something happened that
shifted what is true inside of me right
in a mathematical way if you can't
understand it go back to the Givens
right so if it's a given inside of me
that I've been the same all along and
nothing has really changed in me in some
way that I don't understand
I'm totally not going to understand how
I have changed in my conception of self
right if if I can perceive that hey
trauma can change people and I can see
that I'm Different outside of the trauma
then we go back to the Givens of the
problem and we see that something is
happened and the whole lay of the land
is different right that's why I wrote In
the book that I wrote about a map that
has changed that maybe you had a map
helping you understand yourself and what
you're capable of what you're good at
and what you enjoy and what you know you
might steer away from because you don't
enjoy it as much J is good like you
understood all of this and you
understood that you were a good person
and a perseverant person if you cease to
understand that the whole map of self
has changed so we may need to go back to
that and that's what I'll often end up
saying because because people sometimes
will want to start off from the giv the
premise that nothing's ever going to be
okay maybe I could e something out but
I'm cursed and we have to go say well we
have to go back to the given of this
problem right of of like did your map
change because of trauma and and we can
use a mathematical analogy or we can use
a the analogy of a map but what we're
trying to get at is constructing a story
of self that honors logic and uses logic
to investigate but most importantly
honors the impact of the lyic of the
emotional right and if we're going to
honor the impact of the limic and the
emotional we will not be able to do that
without honoring the impact of trauma in
very very very many people yeah that uh
that is a complex bag of things speaking
of complex bags my favorite story in the
book is Uncle
Rango uh which man it's weird to say
that that's uh a favorite but I was
actually really inspired by that story
yes um if you don't mind who is Uncle
Rango and how did he make it into the
book well I so appreciate that you said
that it's my favorite story of my life
right in terms of um learning from it
right I may have stories the birth of my
children that are more emotional but
when I think of life lessons it's the
best story because very little was
expected of him he was expelled from
school in the sixth grade no one paid
much attention to him he was angry he
fought a lot right there were a lot of
things about him
that from the
outside would have looked very
unimpressive like someone who didn't
have much inside of him and I don't know
how he felt about himself back then
he didn't have a lot of words to put
around those things right but what I do
know is he lived a great life and he was
a good person in the community around
him he was good to his family he was
solid at the things that he did and when
he talked about
himself there was such a dramatic change
after he went off to service in the
second world war because what was inside
of him came to the four and he was
promoted in the field uh several times
over to become a master sergeant and was
decorated twice for bravery in battle
and the one that he was proud of that he
talked about to me and I think to my
mother and certainly to his wife but it
may have been to no one else uh was that
he jumped out of a foxhole under heavy
fire to rescue someone who had been shot
and was sort of left there to suffer
because maybe people would try and
rescue that person and get killed
themselves and without anyone else he
jumped out he he put the person you know
bols flying and he made it back right
and I think what he understood from his
experiences was that he could lead
people when when push came to shove uh
he could call upon in himself uh
qualities perseverance resilience that
as far as I could understand no one
thought were in him and he didn't think
was in him either that one point in time
when he was leading a group of Men
Behind Enemy Lines they radioed in and
thanked them for their service right
many that the expectation was that they
were all going to die and he led all of
them to safety J Jesus now that was the
first time he was decorated and I think
this honors the complexity of trauma
because I think what my uncle
experienced in the in the second world
war made him a person who had a good
life right I should say he made himself
a person who had a good life but that e
experience was Germain to it but the
second world war was an awful thing and
it was an awful thing for him too and
the reason he never told people about
the decorations we knew he was decorated
it was it been in the papers but he
wouldn't talk about it including the one
where there's no shame right you jumped
out of a foxhole with bullets flying you
put someone over your shoulder and you
carry them back and saved their life
right what is there to be ashamed
about nothing about that but he was
ashamed of himself
because in order to lead those men from
Behind Enemy Lines someone had to kill
the prisoners they had and his thought
was put into a position of leadership
where now he was leading was you can't
ask somebody to do that you can't order
someone to do that I don't know how the
command structure work like if that has
to be done it's your responsibility if
you're in charge to do it and it
tortured him the rest of his life so so
much good came in what he learned about
himself but the suffering came along
with it and I think it honors the
complexity of human beings and of trauma
and ultimately I think it is a story of
Triumph that he did survive and people
sent him letters many many years on
there were people who sent him a letter
it was another grandchild and they'd
send him a letter like here's another
person who was born because of what you
did for us I mean I saw some of those
letters right but he carried within him
the shame that he understood that he was
capable of killing someone who wasn't
armed regardless of what the situation
was and he understood that he did the
right thing I mean he was very Concrete
in that way it was the right thing to do
but doesn't mean it's not supposed to
torment you yeah for people that don't
know the details of the story which you
cover in the book they had to cross back
over uh from Enemy Lines at night
silently and they had three prisoners of
War uh who obviously would have been
incentivized to make noise uh and so he
killed them that that is uh man to your
point that's just that's brutal and
goes back to that need to contextualize
what it means and I have to imagine in
terms of assigning meaning that it would
be incredibly meaningful to see the
people that came into the world that
otherwise would not have had he not
brought them back did he ever talk about
that very little what was clear to me I
never asked him this because I didn't
ask him things you know times he said
things and as he got older he said a
little bit more but I was very careful
as was my mother about what we asked him
but it was very clear that he would
never have done that to save his own
life that he could not have done that it
would have been shameful to do so to
save as he said there were three boys
just like me that's what he said there
were three boys and I was one boy they
spoke a different language and
I a matter four boys right but he was
responsible for all those other men and
that's why it meant so much to him
because that was the meaning of it all
and all those letters were Sav lived in
my my aunt his wife died after him and
the letters were burned and their ashes
were buried with her that's how
important it all was to him and to
her it was my understanding that she um
she was the one that called for them to
be destroyed because she said they're
his and nobody else's or something what
I don't know why that hit me but it hit
me
what what was her logic why why not um
you know you look at somebody like
Churchill I'm reading a biography of
Churchill right now which by the way is
a Asing his life is absolutely
incredible um but he wanted the world to
read the letters and people used to say
sometimes you felt like you got a letter
from him because he was like
pre-printing it um why destroy them I
would kill to read those yeah I believe
it's because they were so personal right
that there was a personal justification
for what he did that was embodied in
those letters in the next ch
or as life went on grandchild great
grandchild that that I believe reminded
him of the meaning of it like that
that's what I thought about it at the
time and and I've thought that ever
since and and and he and my aun had
agreed to that that they were so
personal that if he died Whoever has
died last would be buried with the ashes
of the letters and then whenever she
died she would be buried with his dog
tags and that's what he did man their
relationship sounds uh very interesting
and I would going back to connecting to
another human is the thing that's going
to get you past trauma I'd love to hear
more about their relationship anything
that you know
about like was that a gravitational
Center for them you know going to war my
uncle was in
Vietnam and my aunt uh has been pretty
clear when he came back it it that was
sort of the beginning of the end um
and just he was never able able to
contextualize the trauma MH and um it
did not lead to Ideal relationship
Behavior so what was it that allowed
Uncle Rango and his wife to connect like
was it a knowing thing were they good at
this because it sounds like before he
went to war he's fighting a lot he's
getting in trouble nobody expects much
it's kind of surprising that he ends up
having this um yeah love affair for his
entire life to the point where she's
being buried with his dog tags and I
mean it's just like it's pretty intense
yeah so to the best of my understanding
you my uncle Rango had a lot of Charisma
right there was a lot about him that
Drew people as well he was a good leader
and my aunt Rose was quite a catch right
I see that from the pictures and
everyone talked about her and they had a
romance before he went off to war and
they had something that people
unfortunately often did not have in the
Vietnam era which is like the knowledge
that people at home you know were
pulling for them and thought they were
doing understood they were doing this
right that they were doing something
important and and he was was conscious
of that that he was going off to fight
for they were very proud they were
Italian immigrants they were very proud
to be American and he was going off to
fight for America and her man was going
off to fight for America they were very
traditional in their roles and you know
part of his motivation when you talked
about is he wanted to come home to her
and she wanted him to come home to her
and that was with them I think in
letters I never knew they write letters
to one another I never learned that I
they must have right I just didn't know
them and then when he came back he was
received in that way he was a hero in
the community I mean the the the you
know the communities were very
ethnically and in many ways still are
ethnically divided uh the
Italian-American community and a lot of
the people in certain generations of
immigrants and he was a hero in that
Community you know he had gone off and
fought for America and he'd honored
himself so he he had that and she was
very respectful in that way that like
she just loved and admired and was in
awe of him for what he had gone and done
and he loved and admired her for you
know the steadfastness of the person
that she was and I don't know my uncle
iin go ever wash the dish and my aunt
Rose didn't go out and lay tile but you
know they had very traditional roles um
those roles were so mutually supportive
and and it's not just specific to that
era but it it works so well for them uh
and I think under you know the roles
then couched the real closeness and
intimacy that existed between them and I
think he was able to share with her in a
way that he wasn't with anyone else cuz
he was very you know ashamed to talk
about feelings right and I think he
could talk about them with my aunt Rose
I believe that to be
true it's really interesting you
mentioned um The Narrative and the
breakdown of shared narratives really
worries me in a modern context I there's
no other time I would rather be alive I
am not pessimistic about the world in
general but I also want to face head on
the things that are difficult and I
think that one of the things that's very
difficult is the velocity of information
made available by social media the sort
of algorithmically induced psychosis of
only seeing one thing over and over and
over and over and over and over and over
whether that's um the things you already
believe or the things that make you IR
rate because that's what social media
does to make sure that the engagement is
up uh really uh upset people breakdown
of shared narratives so if what we've
been talking about today is on the money
and how you contextualize your trauma
Your Role the meaning that you assign
things how much do you deal in your
clinical practice with people that they
they're just not able to put together a
cohesive narrative about who they are
what they bring to the world and do you
think about that breakdown at a a
societal level as well like does that
make your radar as something to be
concerned about yeah you often it is
hard to help a person establish a
narrative I mean think once we get
rolling it goes pretty well but
sometimes getting it moving is hard
because there is that resistance right
and that is often because the person
doesn't see the social context right so
so think about someone who internalizes
that they are less than because of a
Prejudice that they grew up with and
they grew up with it so intensely and it
was like the only thing present in a
sense the soup they were swimming in so
to speak right was was that and then the
shame of it tells them where logically
they can say I mean how many times does
this happen I could never count where
they could say someone else I would
never tell anyone they're less than
because of and they'll say the thing
they were bullied or were the lens
through which the Prejudice came right
but they feel that they are different
right but but me I am ashamed I am less
than right because that's the lesson of
trauma people will say that all the time
they they would not denigrate or tell
someone oh you're hopeless or this or
that because of the exact same thing
that has happened to them right but we
reflexively make ourselves special for
negative reasons and then we lose sight
of that we lose sight of truth right so
we have to come at that right so so one
way of coming at that is it used to be
done and sometimes is like an empty
chair way well please tell that person
who's been through exactly what you have
I mean what's the the the tactic is not
that subtle right like we're trying to
get the person talking essentially to
themselves right and tell them that what
they did is wrong and they should feel
ashamed and it was their fault right and
the person can't do it right because
they're thinking outwardly and they
wouldn't say it to someone else do we
have our route in you know or what do
they say so that may be a route in in
another setting with a different person
it may be to talk about the social
context gosh that's shameful in some
places and not in others you know
shameful in places that have a societal
sickness and not in places that don't
right so so we can we can guide towards
exposing the unconscious which which
really often was do it mean often
exposing the lessons of trauma that are
in Us in these ways we're not aware of
the less than lessons the shame lessons
the oh I'm limited lessons I'm curse
lessons for you but not for me lessons
so there are a lot of ways of getting at
that and sometimes there's resistance
and sometimes there isn't you know again
it's it's hard to tell and you don't
really tell by intelligence you tell by
can the person make a connection are
they curious about themselves and if not
then if I'm the therapist it's my job to
work hard for that of I want to make a
connection right I want to work hard on
I want to figure out the route of
approach because we all have narratives
right we all have narratives and if
there's no real trauma impacting The
Narrative great The Narrative is still
relevant right maybe that person who has
recurrent depression that doesn't have
anything to do with trauma does have to
do with other purely physical conditions
in their life or medical conditions
right like it's always important to know
the
narrative and the narrative most often
leads us to the impact of
trauma The Narrative leads to the impact
of trauma
meaning help me understand that what do
you mean by that okay I'll give an
example I often give is so this is a
true story so a young woman who had won
an award in high school okay and she
didn't grow up in privileged
circumstances or where a lot was
expected of her but she was very smart
very empathic like you list all the
qualities to like go out there and
conquer the world like she had them all
but not a lot was expected of her and it
wasn't an environment where people were
going to challenge celebrate anything
right like that but there were
opportunities here and there and she'd
won an award right back in high school
and it was a big award to win and it was
the anchor in her to look I can do more
right like there's something in me right
like I can go do this or I can go do
that I can leave this place it hasn't
done well by me and I I can make a life
for myself like she believed that why
because it was true right and it was
anchored to something as often we anchor
things that are important to something
tangible like I want award this is what
that tells me okay on the other side of
a very bad
trauma she had an understanding of
exactly what that award meant that was
the understanding she'd always had of it
to ask her in the in the present right
and it was that the award was a mockery
of her that it that it showed that there
was the best thing that would ever
happened to her that like that was going
to be her crowning you know she get all
sorts of sarcastic and cynical things
about herself and what it meant was that
she couldn't go anywhere the exact
opposite with no awareness whatsoever
that that had changed in her she's not
an outlier what I hear you saying then
is nothing is either good or bad but
thinking makes it so so because you said
the narrative leads to the trauma so if
she which I love this speaks my language
in terms of how I would hold myself
accountable if something happened to me
so getting back to our initial question
uh if if I encountered a major trauma
and look I I have had my share of
traumas but I've
always I I haven't one that I would sort
of put as category one uh death um being
attacked or something like that
thankfully but if I did the thing that I
would be trying to figure out is how do
I tell a story about that that empowers
me and allows me to move forward and so
what I hear you saying is that if the
narrative is the thing that leads to the
trauma this look the thing is obviously
your brother dying is obviously bad so I
not asking anybody to believe that the
trauma itself is good but going back to
Victor Frankle going back to Nelson
Mandela it's like being locked up for as
long as Nelson Mandela was being in a
concentration camp full stop just
horrendous horrendous but both of them
found a way to find meaning so that they
could get through it and not only get
through it once out like really thrived
and and echoed through the world
in pretty amazing ways so if what you're
saying is true The Narrative can lead to
the trauma then the narrative should
also be able to lead away from the
trauma into making sense of something in
a way that allows you to move forward in
a positive way yes is I think the way I
might summarize that and I I'll explain
is to say nothing that is not bad is
automatically either good or bad right
like there are bad things like being
imprisoned unjustifiably that's a bad
thing right a death that's
unexpected and happen suddenly is is a
bad thing doing things to hurt people is
a bad thing it's a bad thing we can do I
have done that and it has been bad right
that kind of statement I recognize in
myself that I've done bad things that's
that's sometimes the bad thing to
recognize right but after parsing that
apart like directly harming people right
is bad whether it's physical it's
emotional like I I I'm very comfortable
making a direct statement about that
hurting people is bad right and there
are ways we can do that and there are
ways we can't do that if I have some
slight value difference from you and I
think oh that's bad because you're
hurting my family values or whatever
that's not true right like there're
things that are that are subject to
opinion and there are things that are
just very clearly bad and directly
hurting someone is bad and if you've
done that then we can take stock of it
we can atone we can take why did we do
that can we seize upon the good in
ourselves make things better like the
man in the other story who had done very
very very very many bad things and was
AO atically doing bad things in in a
reflexive way who found it in himself to
recognize all of that and thereby do
something good right so we we pars out
there is good and bad right but after we
get over that is what is our perception
of it and Trauma I'm simplifying a
little bit but trauma drives towards the
bad right that means this thing is bad
and you are bad it's not this thing is
bad and maybe you are not bad right but
we have to understand that so that we
can understand what it means this bad
thing has happened but I am not bad bad
I lost my brother to Suicide that
doesn't mean that I'm cursed doesn't
mean that I'm a loser and I'm never
going to make anything of myself doesn't
make any sense right something bad
happened but I'm not bad not perfect
either and I want to look at ways to
make myself better but I'm separating
the truth from The Reflex which is
something bad has happened and I am bad
when I was around him and and I didn't
know I didn't see I mean you know that's
the path we go down of I can you know I
could you I could count or could not
could not count how many times a person
including at times me earlier in life
would explain why I am bad in way it
seems logically very very sound except
is untrue because all that logical
soundness is is couched in the emotion
that tells me I must be bad so now I'm
going to back map to the logic just like
the person who doesn't make memories
going forward says I don't want to shake
your hand right I don't know why and
then makes up a story right but the
importance of the story is is the
Badness right and that case it's a
Badness cuz last time I shook your hand
it was a pen like I it hurts so that's
bad right but it's much much much more
important right when the the story is us
I am bad and I'm going to tell you why
and there's no one who who who believes
who knows so to speak that they are bad
who doesn't tell you a story of why we
all do right so we need to understand
that the the premise isn't right and if
the premise is right that there's bad in
us and we've done bad things I work with
many people who've done things we look
at that is bad let's call that for what
it is and let's look at it in a way
because as you commented earlier on in
our discussion we are responsible for
ourselves going forward who else is
going to take responsibility for us I
think that also means that we're
responsible for helping each other more
than we do right that if one of us has
no one and is alone that that we
contribute some resources to helping
them have a cat or you know the societal
interventions that link people to people
who need people linked to them like the
gregarious person to the nursing home or
gosh you're down on your luck Let's help
you so you can get back on your feet
like we don't help people a lot in
society we owe more to one another
because of our human interconnectedness
but that doesn't mean anyone's taking
responsibility for us and we can't and
should not count on that we take
responsibility for ourselves and lo and
behold that's also how we Marshall the
best supports around us if I take
responsibility for myself I say okay now
let me look at who or what can help me
if I don't take responsibility for
myself and I feel like nothing can ever
get better or I thinking some awful
things and I got my head down literally
metaphorically and I'm not going to see
the help that's around me you might be
standing next to me holding out a
helping hand I won't even see it those
are individual narratives what do you
think about the shared narratives so
there's a couple things that I worry
about one you've got social media allows
you to algorithm your way to um a narrow
band of humanity and you never see
anything outside of that so you get a
breakdown or an atomization is probably
the right way to think about algorithms
you get an atomization of of the
algorithm so you're having an experience
that is relevant to you and all the
things that you've cobbled together but
you don't necessarily have a broader
spectrum of like a a wider sense of
unity so you talked about um uncle Rango
was Italian but he was a proud American
and that sense of the bigger Narrative
of proud American that that is breaking
down and so we get into um smaller
tribes because you're going to be in a
tribe but the bigger the tribe I think
the better off you are the more atomized
the tribe the more problematic so that's
part number one that we're getting into
these very atomized tribes part number
two is the kinds of things it used to
give us really broad tribes was religion
and once re religion and by the way I'm
not religious um but once religion
stopped being a truth and started being
a story I think that's like that just
furthers this atomization of uh the
tribal units and when I think about okay
the the thesis that we've laid out today
is you really need to connect like that
that's a big punch line and the fact
that a person can think themselves dead
because they have stopped connecting
with other people is just really really
crazy um so when you look at what's
happening in a modern context do you see
that that feeding into um trauma
depression an inability to create a
positive State and if so how can people
inoculate themselves against that yeah
okay I just want to scream yes yes yes
um we are in a place societally where I
believe we step further and further away
from our responsibility as Citizens my
uncle saw it as his responsibility as as
an American citizen to go to War for
America right we often don't see it as
my responsibility as an American citizen
to think about what's coming my way and
then we falsely polarize if group a and
Group B are opposed and I'm in group a
and you're in group b right isn't it so
much easier if some data comes my way
allegedly right some assertion that says
how bad Group B people are be like yeah
I don't like them anyway right you're
bad and I'm not and then data
information alleged data comes to you a
group a people are bad right you're bad
I mean we're distancing ourselves
because we're not fulfilling our
responsibility to stop and think
confirmatory evidence is is emotionally
gratifying right if I think be people
are bad and like a be person did
something bad I I see it in the news and
somebody pushed it to me right you're
all bad right like how many times are we
doing that how many thousands and
thousands of times are we doing that and
then the political mechanisms is is not
my place I think to be political but to
say psychologically right political
mechanisms harness that right now you
have a bunch of people who are not
assessing data one way or another who
give in to the seduction of the
confirmatory evidence it feels good to
see that right instead of saying well
wait may wait a second a b person did
that did an a person do the same thing
like maybe none of this matters right or
is that really hurtful to me or is it
just easy to say yeah and that feels
good to me look the same way we have a
responsibility of sometimes reaching for
the apple and not the potato chips right
it's a lot easier to reach for the
potato just but if you keep doing that
and you're not taking responsibility for
yourself right you become very unhealthy
right so we say and we should say more
you have a responsibility for yourself
right we don't talk about the
responsibility as Citizens to have some
understanding of what we're what is true
and what we're saying and why right it
doesn't mean we shouldn't have opinions
that differ but let's separate truth
from opinions right I don't think it's
politics to say that when you have say
pictures side by side of like this is
crowd size a and this is crowd size B
and crowd size a is bigger than crowd
size B and we could survey first graders
across the world and they'll agree with
that but yet we have an entire set of
assertions and then further assertions
and alleged facts based upon the
patently untrue idea that the smaller
crowd was bigger like we're not going to
be okay right like we need to reject
that because we start treading into
truth doesn't matter because it serves
me to think that truth doesn't doesn't
matter or because it serves me to
harness people who are susceptible so we
TR getting to what is true is very
problematic and I definitely I share
your concerns there but before we move
on to truth how do we generate a shared
narrative what what is the right um
level of analysis for building out the
narrative is it country is it
neighborhood is it right left is it
Global like how do we
in a world where atomization is the
gravitational
pole what do we use in a world where it
doesn't seem like religion fits the bill
anymore although maybe that's your
answer and I'm certainly open um but
what is the thing what is the narrative
how do we use that to bring us
together well it's got to
start it's got to start close to home
right
the idea
of take
responsibility for a lot of things enact
and live that responsibility towards
some of those things and don't feel
responsible for everything right so the
idea of take responsibility for a lot of
things so I take responsibility for
what's directly around me right I take
responsibility if I walk outside the
door here and someone has tripped and
Fallen I'm going to stick a hand out to
help them up right if if you look really
sad and I'm a little worried I'm going
to say something right I'm going to take
responsibility for the for the people in
the situations around me if I'm
intimidating someone and getting my way
met or I know someone wants to say
something to me and I turn my back
through one way or another it's then
it's my responsibility to stop doing
that to look around me and to take
responsibility and then and then take
that on higher levels too right the the
immediate the street I live on is is
much more Vi responsibility right than
than the community I live in but the
community I live in is is my
responsibility too right as is the world
right I can't solve global warming but I
could think a little bit more about am I
buying you know bottles that get
recycled to put in a landfill or did I
think to take something with me I can
put water in like so there's less
responsibility because we can control
less right but then some people can do
very much on the world stage right but
it has to start in a paramal way with
responsibility for what's closest so the
first responsibility is between me and
me am I selling myself short by telling
myself lies am I selling myself short
it's easier to eat the potato chip than
the apple and I really don't feel well
and you know I can't exercise anymore
and I see my energy going down and like
that's awful and where's that heading
right so I got to be responsible to
myself and then if you're the person
sitting next to me I have to feel some
responsibility for you too especially if
we're under the same roof we're in the
same family we're in the same Community
right so take responsibility for those
things and that's what that's what leads
us to cast with the wi net right then
really enact and live responsibility for
the roles that are closer to home so
like an obvious example is parent right
if parent is part of your responsibility
then live that right live that right if
you're not doing as good a job as a
parent because you're depressed and you
haven't taken care of your depression or
because you're drinking three or four
nights a week to sooth attention and
that impacts your kids or even because
you think that the success that you're
making in some way is doing things they
need when they really need your time and
attention like there's a million
different ways that can be right but
step back and really take a look at that
role because that's a role you want to
really live right and then don't feel
responsible for everything right when
people are empathically attuned
conscientious right it's very easy for
people to then feel responsible for
everything they're responsible for
everything that's going wrong in the
family they're responsible even when
someone else's lack of Health may be
driving all of those things right they
feel responsible in ways that don't let
them go out and strive more because
they're taking on unreasonable burdens
right so so take responsibility for a
lot of things and act and live
responsibility for some subset of those
things and don't feel responsible for
everything it's like if we bring that
then we honor the nuances and you know
if we talk about some political issue or
whatever it may be and I see that oh you
and I think in a diametrically opposed
way right if we're doing that then
instead of some reflex that now puts you
in a bad category and then wants nothing
but confirmatory information right like
oh like let me well like let me at least
learn how you think maybe I'll learn
something from you right and and maybe
if neither one of us convinces the other
one little bit we have an experience
that someone in the other Camp can be
reasonable right I can be reasonable
right we have a shared Human Experience
even if we differ and it's that that we
wish to engender and in many ways the
the hyper confirmatory social media
right and you yes it can be difficult to
tell truth from lies but you know
sometimes 1 plus one is two and not
three right so if we're living in those
responsibilities and we're grounding
ourselves then we don't choose the thing
that's easy you know we don't sometimes
I want to choose a potato chip right but
if I choose it all the time that's bad
right so maybe sometimes a person
chooses the information that that that
um confirms what they want to hear right
but like most of the time don't do that
if you can don't do it all the time
right and if you do that you bear
responsibility for that when you have a
set of opinions that don't acknowledge
that other people could possibly have
different opinions right or that they's
something other than demons because they
have different opinions then you know
you're in a place that has to come in
some way through the lens of trauma
right because who becomes that adamant
right I must be right and if you don't
believe in me you know you're demonic I
mean there's like they're that's a
problem right so it comes through the
lens of trauma and it begets trauma
people who don't have all that trauma in
them can say okay like I I don't agree
with your opinion I don't like your
opinion and I'll actually fight against
your opinion but like that doesn't mean
I don't want to give you a helping hand
if you've fallen down right I mean that
makes sense right but we have to step
out of ourselves enough and into truth
and rationality and shared humanness in
order to be able to do that it's a
responsibility no
doubt speaking of humanness
responsibility what do you think about
AI is that do you see a path to that
being beneficial or do you see that as
um a race down a path of further
isolation
yeah I I have no special knowledge right
I I think like many people I feel a
sense of hope but I also feel very
afraid right and I think that's
appropriate and and specifically so why
in me is because I talk about AI fair
amount with people and sometimes people
will solicit opinions and and I get to
have really interesting conversations
about it and I think what happens a lot
and I know it's not all the time but but
people come at AI often through the lens
of we're going to use some form of logic
one way or another to get to a place
right but humanness human thought and
human decisions are not just based in
logic and in fact they're trumped by
other things and I think if we're going
to
create intelligence we have to honor
like what actually goes on inside of us
right and then we have to be very
careful because if we're honoring that
and what we're trying to create it also
has great capacity for uh der elution of
Duty to others and perpetration of evil
towards others so it makes me afraid
when I think are we coming at it through
some um overdetermined and overused set
of logical processes that ignore the the
more important side of the equation
right the emotional or the ative that
worries me then I think okay what if
that is honored that worries me too
right um but I do feel that sense of
hope I I just think we have to be very
very very careful because to some extent
we're playing with fire when we're
playing with human will right so if
we're going to make will outside of us
or intelligence outside of us let's be
extra careful I mean I'm simplifying it
in some ways but I just I think it
warrants caution and I think it's
another incentive to really try and
understand ourselves and where does the
perpetration of evil come from right you
know someone who decides I just I'm
going to feel better if things are worse
for you that's a great question where
does the perpetration of evil come from
is that do you think people are born
with that do you think that it's shaped
over time
well I think there there are
biological predispositions certain ways
there can be certain characteristics or
traits through uh uh genetics and the
manifestation of genetics but what I
believe is far more interesting in the
Lion Share of the responsibility is the
trauma that happens to people right like
very few people you know want to really
really hurt other people when there
hasn't been something really wrong in
their own life right which is why the
education that I'm that I would strongly
advocate for in say Elementary School is
not just about Let's Help the person for
example who's bullied understand the
bully but let's help the bully
understand why that person is bullying
the other person there's a lot of people
who are bullies at 10 years old are
bullies at 50 years old right and are
they leading companies or governments or
families even a lot of people are
leading families right or they're
they're part of a family right how much
is there trauma at the Forefront and not
always sometimes it drives people to the
opposite places of of being caretaking
and and things that are very very
positive but it can drive people to
reenact the trauma to wish to have power
by reenacting and and being the powerful
person in ways they were on the other
side I mean that's why people talk about
you know they'll say repetition
compulsion it's not that right and not
everybody who's traumatized traumatizes
other people absolutely not but it's a
very it's a known thing that is that
happens with a high degree of frequency
right and it comes from the terror of
being traumatized and then the
identification with the aggressor
because that means safety right so so
I'm just giving one example right of
where why does identifying with the
aggressor mean safety identifying as the
aggressor yeah and there's not a set
ofical thought process because often
people who are doing that don't actually
think that but they're being the
aggressor and they they can't V most of
the time put words to that right so so
the so identifying with aggression or
enacting anger I'm really really mad at
a world that's rejected me I mean if you
if you look at commonality just for
example in biographies of Adolf Hitler
and Joseph Stalin you absolutely see
estrangement from a world and then an
immense amount of anger towards that
world and destructive impulses right and
you think trauma does so much damage
including in the subset of people who
have early trauma that leads to evil and
they're responsible for the evil this
isn't know somehow we're letting people
off the hook who are perpetrating evil
but but does trauma in certain people in
certain situations you know take all
cers there's going to be a significant
number of people in whom trauma is
especially early childhood trauma
greases the wheels of progress of doing
evil so it is so so important that we
understand trauma understand what it
does to us start this understanding when
we're young right so so we understand as
as a parents who are raising children
right in education paradigms of
understanding trauma and and being able
to fight against it in ways that I
believe I I truly do believe can
absolutely change the world I think the
majority of awfulness of suffering
that's wrought in the world is wrought
through the lens of responses to trauma
or people who don't resist those
responses right because the trauma in
them might be leading them to lead say
with less self assertion or less coming
up against something uh and asserting
themselves than they might right so when
you see the when you think about the
impact of trauma and sometimes it gets
studied through couples or through
family systems and and you can often
tell like oh here's this constellation
within this system and oh this person's
trauma has really you know really kind
of pushed forward Landing them here and
this person's pushed forward Landing
them there and this seed of trauma fell
in that sort of fertile ground for this
problem or that problem and it's not
always that but boy there is a lot of
that interwoven into human suffering
whether it's the human suffering from
one you know enacted from one person to
another in a household setting or it's
someone who is you know starting a war
and murdering
thousands of people wholesale right for
for you through that lens of trauma so
in a small lens or a big lens it's all
awfulness it's all suffering that gets
pushed forward by trauma and by our
responses to it and furthermore by the
fact that that the the responses in us
are are often hidden from us and from
therefor for from our ability to
understand and change them the woman who
saw the award as a mark of Shame and a
mock
did not know that she gained from it so
much inspiration and strong sense of
self and it led her to do good things
that moved her life forward didn't even
know it anymore so there's there's so
much power to trauma that we see in
these examples they're real examples and
then we think this is going on r large
and we have the ability to better
understand it and to better treat it and
to prevent it yeah I mean the 20th
century is replete with I don't know
Stalin but certainly um many of the
other experiments that went wrong from
Mao to Hitler um and seeing the Echoes
of trauma if that really is the thing
that underlined all of their behaviors
is it's pretty terrifying how far that
goes which coming back to AI there was a
book called upgrade by Blake Crouch
which wasn't about AI it was actually
about Gene editing but it could have
just as easily been about AI in terms of
the the premise of the book and spoiler
alert for anybody that's going to read
it um but the premise of the book is uh
that a woman becomes convinced that uh
humans just cannot make the right
decisions and that all of this trauma
whatever just emotions basically is how
she saw it emotions make us do really
dumb things short-sighted things things
that don't play the long game and so to
advance Humanity um she's going to
create a germine
edit to the genes and then propagate it
across the whole world through super
spreaders and the upgrade is all
intellect and so she's basically going
to make everybody super intelligent and
by doing that people would then be able
to solve the greatest problems from
climate change whatever and as it plays
out in the book they estimate that it'll
kill a billion people but that then
everybody else will be smart and they'll
be able to solve these problems and the
punchline of the book again spoiler
alert so if you plan to read it now
would be the time to to mute uh the
podcast but um what the the the hero of
the book ends up realizing is oh my
whole life I've wanted to be more
intelligent that's a mistake because the
second because it's basically a brother
and sister the mother upgrades her two
kids and the second they become super
intelligent they each try to kill the
other because they don't believe that
they're approaching the problem the
right way and then the one who's like
pushing all this forward is willing to
kill a billion people and so the other
guy goes okay maybe this is still hubris
uh but I'm going to do a different
upgrade and I'm going to make everybody
more compassionate and so to your point
about okay what is the stem of evil if
the stem of evil is an emotional thing
that then is carrying out it's it it is
accelerated by intellect you know as far
as I can tell Hitler was was pretty
[ __ ] bright and he was certainly
charismatic and when that's coupled with
evil like you have a very bad
combination so it's not like
intelligence automatically makes you
human friendly absolutely and so I think
that's what everybody's struggling with
with AI is that just because you're
smart doesn't mean that you're going to
be friendly to humans or friendly to
life uh in general and so then what does
become the way to align things and is
that going to be Compassion or something
entirely different and look alignment is
many many many three-hour long
interviews by itself so trust me I know
that I'm just skimming across the
surface right now but it's very
interesting that as people look at the
AI problem that they're coming to that
conclusion of what what is the thing
like what do we have to do do we have to
make it love humans do we have to make
it love life is it you know something
completely different and then somebody
who's coming at it from the trauma angle
is saying the same thing like if I want
to help unwind evil or pain and
suffering um I'm coming at this from a
perspective of love connection it's a
different orienting mechanism which is
very interesting um myself as somebody
who's always lamented that I I
definitely wish that I was Far smarter
than I
am that the overp pursuit of that may
actually not be optimizing The Human
Condition it feels like it would be uh
but in reality the and and this is
certainly I tell myself this because I
believe it and I certainly tell others
because uh my North Star is human
fulfillment and flourishing um the best
thing that life has to offer you is the
love of another human there's nothing
else so you know people look at my
success and I think they're drawn to the
um the wrong things in terms of if you
were to emulate my life the one thing I
would say oh that that is going to make
you happy for sure would be to emulate
my marriage not my pursuit of success
that I would actually I won I won't say
it's it's not inherently bad but it's a
very dangerous game not falling in love
not cultivating a relationship would be
dangerous cultivating a relationship
making that your number one priority
that's going to reward you like for sure
if there's anything that I'm confident
in it's getting good at that doing that
poorly is its own nightmare literally a
nightmare nightmare but doing it well is
better than doing money well or doing
anything else well that I have ever
experienced yeah I want to start my
response to that with with the example
you gave which I think is is perfect of
the the story right that edits out right
anything but intelligence and starts
optimizing intelligence and that's a
thing right that's a thing that's going
to carry us forward we've edited out
what's not that right what's not logic
and intelligence I feel so sure that if
you run that experiment ahead if
everybody hasn't killed everybody else
at some point in time everybody who's
left will have cotard's
syndrome right which is nothingness
that's why we're so terrified by it
because the meaning isn't in the logic
the meaning isn't in logic good bad or
otherwise the meaning is in Emotion when
someone perpetrates evil they're angry
they're frustrated they feel terrible
about themselves terrible about others
it raises emotions in them when someone
sacrifices their life to save someone
else or to help someone else there's an
emotion in them there's empathic
Attunement they feel for the person they
feel for for something greater than
themselves right it's it's it's the
affective or the emotional if you want
to put that word to it that drives all
the action drives all the action the
logic is just adorning it right the
logic is just this the structure around
it you know the logic of the the pieces
that go into the car right the the
emotion is the person sitting in it
driving it around and things are
happening right the logic just is the
building block the the structure of it
and the specific pieces of of what goes
into to move something forward in in
time you got to put gas in the car you
got to maintain it like it's it's all
logical principles but nothing of it is
interesting what's interesting is like
the person in it what they're feeling in
it right what they're using it for I'm
trying to create an um I'm trying to
explain how like logic is part of the
picture but it's like the styrofoam
around the thing that matters right in a
sense and I'm not saying logic doesn't
matter we figure things out we figured
out penicillin for example like logic
matters but it doesn't make meaning
it's emotion that makes meaning it's all
that lyic affective stuff that makes
meaning and it's that where we want to
engender Health right where we want to
work against trauma we want to prevent
trauma because when people are healthy
they come to a place of gratitude and
humility this is how people are happy
and at this point in time I have two
decades of data of of intensely working
with people across the life Spectrum
across demographics and what's the
commonality of people who are have good
Liv Lives who are happy like it's not
what's their wealth status where do they
live what's their social status how many
kids do they have how much money it's
none of that do they feel a sense of
gratitude do they feel a sense of
humility right and that comes if trauma
isn't weighing on them right if they
have enough sense of self that even if
really bad things have happened to me
and I feel like life has been fair to me
right can I do something good can I go
up my front door and help someone it's
that that makes happiness I see more
happiness in people who who from the
outside have absolutely nothing than I
do sometimes in people that we think
have the world and that's not an
exaggeration right if we get to a point
where we feel gratitude and humility
we've taken care of ourselves and it's
always constructive right the
destructive destroys right I mean look
what did Berlin look like after the
second world war right violence and
destruction outward brings violence and
destruction inward or at a minimum it
limits us person who may in a family
system be intim ating everyone around
them there's no life in them or in other
people no one else is expressing any
life and that person doesn't have it in
them either we take the life out of life
right but if we don't do that we
understand ourselves as best we can we
strive to be the best we can be which
means understanding ourselves what's
true and what's not true right what's
what what I'm capable of that I have
some faith in myself and I reasonably
going to try and make myself the best I
can be I'm going to strive what are the
chances I'm going to feel better about
myself and try and make the world a
better place as opposed to being
destructive and I think we see that as
clearly as math the idea that there's
actually no difference in value between
doing good and doing evil and people say
well if there's no God and we can't
prove that there's a God whether there
is or there isn't there's a difference
and we see it so obviously around us
like what does destruction lead to oh
more destruction right we see that so
obviously yet we'll still argue against
it and I think it's that that we need to
stop doing we need to be responsible for
the very BAS facts in our lives which is
why I do believe if we're anchoring
ourselves to health going forward right
I I've written about anchor ourselves to
biological facts like things we know
anchor ourselves to history but it's
also anchor ourselves to early childhood
education right I see a lot from people
in positions of great power that I would
call my mother to come get me if I did
those things in kindergarten like
somehow we can do that we forget lessons
of that we learn in kindergarten I don't
think let's act in in the context of the
the most elevated esteemed education we
can get no let's start at kindergarten
that's what we need and sometimes we see
people with 15 years of higher education
who need to go back to kindergarten or
learn those rules I mean I don't say
that lightly because that's the basic
value system in us that leads us to be
reasonable to be compassionate with
ourselves and others and for us not to
then either by choice or by stumbling to
it right just enacting destruction and
creating destruction in the world around
us I believe that and I I think we see
it over and over and I do think it's
self-evident if we step back and we look
at it I think it tells us I think
everything from the science of the the
physics where we have to we have to have
counter entropy and parts of the
universe have a possibility for there to
be you know there to be a solar system
be planets like it's so overdetermined
to fight against destruction right
that's why have a planet right because
the the atoms in the planet and the
subatomic molecules aren't atomized
across the rest of the universe like
we're going against the grain of
Destruction right and and that's no less
true as individual humans as humans
sociologically right with one another as
cultures I I believe that to be true and
I think the I think the truths out there
that that we already have tell us that I
think that's a beautiful place to wrap
where can people follow you if a person
is interested there's a website it's Dr
paul.com it's just d r p a l n ti.com
and it it has ways to acquire the book
if anyone is interested and feels it
could be of help to them and it has
links to other uh other appearances on
other podcasts love it awesome all right
everybody if you haven't already be sure
to subscribe and until next time my
friends be legendary take care peace if
you like this conversation check out
this episode to learn more then what you
realizes Your Capacity to tap into
dopamine as a motivator not just seeking
dopamine rewards that is infinite and I
I can say with with great certainty that
this is how you were able to build a big
company and sell it how you've been able
to build a successful podcast