Kind: captions
Language: en
if your goal is to be better at life
your first assumption going to be to
pursue happiness but that is a mistake
happiness is a result that cannot be
directly pursued it can only be born of
a set of behaviors coming anti-fragile
and pursuing truth and authenticity here
is controversial YouTuber author and
award-winning Professor gadsad with the
surprising path to happiness
so as you think about the the way to
orchestrate happiness one I think it's
important to define happiness if it
isn't the sort of passing uh momentary
happiness of eating a bowl of ice cream
or having good sex but those are
actually both parts of this thing what
is that cocktail of Truth and freedom is
that the only parts of the cocktail like
right so uh the the watching the porn
having the good sex eating the ice cream
then the juicy burger those are the
dopamine hits right they're tickling my
pleasure Center so they're they're
ephemeral their passing happiness in the
way that I'm using the term in the way
that most philosophers have written
about the topic would use the term is
through the serotonin system right I
mean I'm sitting on the proverbial cow
of porch when I'm 85 I'm looking back at
my life and I'm saying you know what
I've lived a good life
I've built a great marriage I have great
kids I've had a job that has given me
infinite purpose and meaning I've got an
incredible group of friends that I trust
so it is in that enduring sense
existential sense that I'm feeling
content in myself so eating the ice
cream is great it can give me a
momentary hit of dopamine rush but it
isn't what I mean by happiness
um
you want to talk a bit more about the
know thyself the the authenticity part
yeah that's a key part of this before we
do that though I wanna
so when I talk to people about happiness
which is always how people package the
question what I'm very careful to
migrate them to is don't worry about
happiness happiness to me is the
transient thing the what you're talking
about in the serotonin system I would
call fulfillment right now I think
fulfillment has a very knowable recipe
and I want to see if we agree on that or
if we have a convergence at the
definition level in which case I'll want
to get your specific definition so my
recipe for fulfillment which is I think
the neurochemical state that people long
for not just when they're 85 on the
porch but from moment to moment because
fulfillment to me is the thing that can
survive grief you can be fulfilled and
grieving at the same time you can't be
happy and grieving at the same time so
for me it's it's based on Evolution so I
know a secret about your future that I
won't rat you out here but you and I
share an obsession can I can I just say
what the context is you had asked uh
what was my next book possibly about and
I shared it with you which we won't
discuss yes so super intrigued
um I want people to understand that
Evolution has planted these what I'll
call biological algorithms in your brain
so there there are things compelling you
to act a certain way feel a certain way
all the time and so working hard is one
of those you can understand from an
evolutionary perspective why you would
need to work hard so you need to work
hard whatever you're doing you're going
to work hard to gain a set of skills
that allow you to serve not only
yourself but other people sure and as
long as it's a set of skills that you
find intrinsically interesting so that
your goal is exciting to you
um that to me is is the shortest recipe
I can think of for what actually leads
to the quote unquote good life right
does that feel accurate that that is
accurate I would
cover the up the other end of The
evolutionary story I have a section in
the book on the mismatch hypothesis
which is an evolutionary principle that
explains why in some cases we stray away
from happiness or mental health or
physical health because it's also
relevant to our existential happiness so
the mismatch hypothesis Tom is the idea
that
a behavior or a or a preference that
might have been adaptive in our
evolutionary past becomes maladaptive in
the Contemporary environment so the
classic example of that phenomenon would
be our gustatory preferences so we've
evolved the preference for fatty foods
now you and I might have different
preferences I might like juicy steak you
might like chocolate mousse but we
probably both prefer those two Foods or
sources than say raw broccoli or tofu
this is correct right and the reason for
that is very simple because your
ancestors and mine evolved in an
environment of caloric scarcity and
caloric uncertainty therefore it would
have made sense for them to have evolved
those preferences which are then passed
down in today's environment where there
isn't caloric uncertainty or caloric
scarcity then we get some of the biggest
Killers colon cancer and heart disease
and high blood pressure and diabetes
many of these are preventable based on
the types of foods that we eat so that's
an example of the miss match hypothesis
in evolutionary medicine but let's apply
it say to how we live our lives in terms
of social relationships we've evolved as
you've probably heard the the Dunbar
number is something that the evolution
Anthropologist Robin Dunbar talked about
that roughly we've evolved around 150
people around us in our evolutionary
past but then we have very tight
relationships with these concentric
groups of these 150 people social
relationships are the most important
thing to our happiness as a matter of
fact I'll come back to dunbar's number
in a second I quote in the book A the
main finding from 80 plus years of
research at Harvard
longitudinally tracking people the
number one factor that describes how
well you will feel later in life is the
quality of your Social relationships
even more so than your cholesterol
levels so don't worry about taking a
Statin to lower your LDL scores make
sure that you have two three four
friends that you really trust and love
and you can engage in reciprocal rituals
with right and so dunbar's number
expects us to have these tight bonds now
I could live in New York surrounded by 8
million people and yet I feel
unbelievably alone because I'm I'm not
instantiating any of those
tight reciprocal bonds so I am with 8
million people and yet I'm incredibly
lonely and so one of the ways by which
we can apply evolutionary principles to
happiness is seeing some of these
mismatches and how we can resolve that
mismatch so that we can be happier
yeah that's really interesting okay so
we know that we can become misaligned
but we also know that there are these
programs running in our mind uh one of
them so if we're going to use that
shared definition a big part of this is
you have to know what's exciting to you
so we come back to know thyself so
how do you come to know yourself and how
do you deal with things like where your
need because you and I are very
different I'm I am very much a uh
pleaser I'm not disagreeable at all I
would score very low on disagreeability
um
so how do you deal with when you have a
thing to be authentic to yourself you
have to constantly face that
when how do you come to recognize that
and how do you recognize the difference
between a thing that you should embrace
about yourself and something you should
try to change about yourself
those are big questions uh so let me
give you an example of this kind of Novi
self
perfectionism something that I
regrettably suffer from
so in one of the chapters of the book I
talk about uh everything in moderation
so The Sweet Spot which Aristotle had
spoken about more than 2000 years ago
when he argued that for example a
soldier who is too cowardly is not good
a soldier who's too reckless in his
courage is not good the best soldier is
the one who is somewhere in the middle
and so what I argue in that chapter is
everything in life amounts to finding
The Sweet Spot in that domain there is
no law of nature that is more ubiquitous
than the inverted you too little is not
good too much is not good the right
point is somewhere in the middle so
perfectionism for example if you're not
in the least bit perfectionist then
let's say you're an author then your
work will suffer because you don't have
any attention to details right you'll be
sloppy your references will be poorly
cited right if you are on the other end
of the curve where I lie which is when
you receive the galley proofs of your
book instead of rejoicing that you're in
the final step you go into a complete
full-blown panic attack because this is
the last time that I will have a chance
to pick up a typo or a comma that's out
of place I end up spending an inordinate
amount of time re-reading the book to
catch that typo well it would have made
a lot more sense pragmatically
to recognize that it's okay if there's a
typo and I could have spent those two
weeks doing something a lot more
productive that gives me a lot more bank
for my buck well but I had to I have to
have the humility and the introspection
to be able to say I suffer from
perfectionism what can I do to change it
so the old cliche is you know you the
first step is to recognize that you have
a problem and you could only do that if
you're truly humble within yourself same
thing when I you know lost a lot of
weight I could have I could have jumped
on the lizzo bandwagon and said you are
healthy at any size or I could have
listened to my physician and to myself
and to the mirror that said to me you
need to lose weight people don't live to
be a hundred if they are 50 60 70 pounds
overweight so it takes honesty and takes
introspection it takes uh authenticity
it takes humility put it all together
hopefully you make the necessary changes
it's interesting so one thing I think a
lot about is what I call frame of
reference so
frame of reference the easiest way for
me to explain it is it is the distorted
lens through which you view the world
there is no such thing as seeing
objective reality uh I think that we we
live in a simulation in a metaphorical
sense but it borders on literal because
your brain is encased in total darkness
light never reaches your eyes colors
don't exist objectively they exist only
in the simulation where you're taking
photons of a certain wavelength and you
for whatever evolutionary reason our
eyes have chosen to interpret that as
certain colors and but they don't really
exist and so once that reality sinks in
for people and you realize everything
your every intake the way that you frame
the world see it all of it it is your
brain's
trying to deal with the overwhelming
amount of complexity and so it
simplifies it into a useful fashion but
it is by nature a distortion and so once
you realize okay everything that my
brain is doing is is a distorted version
of what's really there
and it's being distorted by my beliefs
and my values and my beliefs are
actually a choice that hopefully are
grounded in reality but not always right
and once you realize okay I can begin to
shape my frame of reference now not
unhinge it from reality because you want
to be as predictively accurate as
possible but you're going to build that
frame of reference and when you take
over that process you realize I get to
choose the things that I care about I
get to choose the things that I believe
about myself and then that is going to
play out in whether or not something is
fulfilling or it makes you happy because
if it's in alignment with your values so
I'll go back to
you you prize authenticity in a way that
I'm sure a lot of people don't because
someone may equally prize getting along
yes like it's better to get along and to
be a bit more of a chameleon and and be
able to justify that
um so how do you help people navigate
that like are there ways I struggle with
this sort of no problem by all means uh
I strong struggle with this when I go
after someone on social media I by the
way when I say go after I don't go after
them personally I go after a position
that they've taken
I I don't wish ill on on anyone and
sometimes it seems as though it's I'm
being personal but I really am I don't I
don't try to frivolously insult but if
you say something insane and I think
that you know this is really dangerously
wrong then I will weigh in well I've
known some people that I've
hesitated to go after because I had
multiple uh codes of conduct that were
pulling me in opposing directions so to
your point about how do you navigate
this so on the one hand
there's a Code of Conduct of you know
you always defend the truth no matter
what it's a deontological uh statement
they are absolute truths absolute
principles that are inviable that should
never be violated okay versus so that's
comparing deontological versus
consequentialist consequentials would be
it's okay to lie if I'm sparing your
feelings deontological would be it's
never okay to lie for most things we are
always operating in consequentialist
World it makes sense but for certain
things freedom of speech presumption of
innocence uh journalistic Integrity
those should be deontological principles
and so I've struggled at times where
someone that I know personally and
therefore there's a different code of
conduct I've had dinner with you I've
been to your home and therefore the
Middle Eastern honor and shame culture
kicks in that I don't want to embarrass
you publicly now I'm struggling do I go
after this person
they are a friend
but they're saying some real
and so usually what happens is I will
bite my tongue until the authenticity
the anthological thing uh supersedes the
being nice to someone that I know so
it's a struggle we all have but at least
the fact that I am introspecting about
what to do is the right approach right
that means I'm struggling with a real
conundrum and so if you don't have the
capacity to take for example a
narcissist a truly malignant narcissist
they can't do the calculus that I just
engaged in right so a narcissist will
say uh I never make mistakes I don't
need to ever apologize I've had
narcissists in my nuclear family
well it's very difficult to have a
healthy relationship if you Proclaim as
a universal statement I never make
mistakes I never need to apologize we
all make mistakes I apologize to my dog
if she greets me at the door and I don't
give her the proper attention because
I'm caught up in my thoughts I'll go
back and say I'm sorry right I'm humble
enough to apologize to my dog so there
is no magic recipe other than having the
humility and introspective capability to
navigate through these conundrums
okay so
um as we try to navigate those
you're breaking things into the the two
camps the sort of never do's and the
conditionally dues
how does one do that well so let's take
truth and freedom which are
I think two very important things
because I have a North star of human
flourishing and so everything that I do
I'm trying to aim it towards what
improves human flourishing for the
largest number of people what decreases
human suffering
but most people don't have a North star
they've never thought about it right um
so do you have like a set of principles
that you've knowingly walked through
that people will need to walk through in
order to be happy like do you have
things that you're like these are the
things that are inviable as relating to
the deontological versus yeah everybody
so if you think about this your book
feels like an instruction manual so if I
think about your book as an instruction
manual and I think about okay you have
to be the architect of your happiness
and you have to do the work then I want
to get really specific about what that
work is so first to me is what's your
North Star right and then it's okay what
are the things that if you don't do you
will inevitably violate that North Star
so I'll give one which the thing I find
myself thinking about more and more is
right now freedom of speech is coming
under attack and when I think about my
North Star is human flourishing I don't
think you can get there without freedom
of speech I couldn't agree more right I
mean freedom of speech is everything I
mean it true truly is now I say this
both as someone who comes from the
Middle East where that's not an
enshrined Universal value right it
freedom of speech in the Middle East as
has been throughout the entire history
of The Human Condition is really a
consequential thing yes you have freedom
of speech but don't criticize religion X
yes you have freedom of speech but don't
criticize dictator why yes you have
right and that's why I get upset by the
way when I see contemporary public
intellectuals exactly committing those
types of
deep moral transgressions right
yes I believe in freedom of speech fully
but surely not for the orange Himmler
Donald Trump yes I believe Orange right
yes I believe in the presumption of
innocence principle in American Jewish
Prudence but certainly not for gang
rapist Brett Kavanaugh sure there is no
real evidence that he did any of those
things but we can't take a risk with
this guy and so let's presume that he is
guilty because after all it's only a job
interview right sure I believe in
journalistic Integrity but it was
perfectly fine to suppress the hunter
Biden story because otherwise orange
Himmler would have become president so
you see how in each of those three
examples that I just gave it there's a
deontological principle that you should
always adhere to but somehow because
you've suddenly become a political
tribal person you're now willing to
violate using a consequentialist uh
calculus this is wrong and that's by the
way one of the reasons why when I've
gone after some of the folks that we
might know in common uh I really did it
advisedly because at first I thought you
know I don't want to burn a bridge with
this person they're a nice person I went
after another person recently by the way
uh
in a contrary to pragmatic calculus let
me explain there's this gentleman who
has a very large show not Joe Rogan
level but one that I certainly would
have uh wanted to get on given that I am
trying to promote my book so now there
is this tug this pragmatic tug on the
other hand this gentleman is peddling
some full positivity that's
really pissing me off
so am I going to be quiet and pragmatic
so that I can get on his show and sell a
couple of thousand extra copies or am I
going to be authentic and say cut it out
guess which one I chose cut it out cut
it out and but again then I not I regret
it after but because I sometimes go
after people in a uniquely God Style
they they then get offended but my
purpose was never to offend them
individually it's that I'm attacking
their position with satire with satire
and that can be quite Punchy right so
Neil deGrasse Tyson I'll mention his
name since I don't know him personally
uh although the full positive the UI I
also don't know personally uh Neil
deGrasse Tyson have you seen his recent
famous clip where he so he's a physicist
so I've had him on the show okay yeah
but you don't I haven't seen the recent
thing but he basically said look it's
very clear gender is on a spectrum and
I'm paraphrasing I don't remember the
exact words but you could go look it up
I just did a sad truth satire on this
whole thing where he says look today I
wake up and I feel 80 percent male and
then I might put on some makeup and then
I'm now more female right so already
he's saying something insane which is
your your mask you know your maleness or
femaleness is defined by the Clement
that you wear and so I said okay well
let how can I attack such a ridiculous
thing through satire so what I did is
here's the usually if you hear the
following words in the sad household you
know trouble is coming up I call my my
daughter and I say bring the Halloween
wigs when I when I make that when I give
that instruction you know there's going
to be troubles and so I take I took all
the wigs I looked at the camera and said
look I completely agree with Neil
deGrasse Tyson because he's super smart
because he's a physicist and so look now
I am a hundred percent male I am the
epitome of manhood and now watch how I'm
going to transition into female as I
wear different wigs of different lengths
different colors and then I put lipstick
either 25 of my lips 50 75 or 100 and so
I literally took Verbatim what he said
and mocked it into Oblivion and it went
viral now I didn't do that because I'm a
mean guy who is trying to hurt Neil
deGrasse Tyson's feelings but Neil
deGrasse Tyson has an obligation he's a
public intellectual who has a large
platform
if you're going to go and use your
scientific in premature to say it is
settled gender is on a spectrum I'm
coming after you that's called
authenticity so now we get into another
part of your book which I think is
really important which which is variety
now you will and I'm sure we'll talk
more about other areas but one of the
areas you say variety becomes important
is intellectual oh yes and so this is
and the person one of the people I think
you were making oblique reference to
that I'll I'll drag into the light here
uh with truly with love is Sam Harris
yes so I recently had him on the show
and I disagree with Sam around freedom
of speech very much but I think the way
that people are dismissing him is a
mistake and so the reason I think that
is because he's grappling with a problem
again I think he's come to the wrong
conclusion but he's grappling with a
real problem and I want because of
epistemic humility my absolute just
pervasive not only fear that I'm wrong I
know I am frequently wrong right and so
I want challenges to my ideas which you
also talk about in the book again guys
this is a book about happiness but
you're you're really giving a um a value
stack that I think is critical for
people to work through in their own
lives in order to actually make this
real
you're talking about people really do
have to understand you you have to want
to be challenged that's going to be the
thing that makes you stronger you have
to want intellectual even Variety in
your life and so
where this gets very difficult I think
Sam is being authentic so for him to
look himself in the mirror even though
from the outside I look at and go send
this a wrong conclusion not only is it
wrong it's dangerous but he's on the
opposite side of that intuition saying
Tom not only have you come to the wrong
conclusion but it's dangerous and so the
problem he's dealing with I think these
are not his words this is my
interpretation what he's dealing with is
the realities of a world driven by
algorithm where ideas have Extreme
Velocity right and they're all crushed
down into memes so there's no more depth
there's no more Nuance it's headline
that is fed to you algorithmically so
you're being manipulated and you don't
even know it and the idea is coming you
so fast right that even if you're smart
you're not going to be able to hold a
nuanced position on that thing you don't
have time to think through all of the
ideas and so in grappling with that
again I don't agree with his conclusion
but I really think he's approaching the
problem sincerely
I do think that he's authentic so
contrary to the full positivity guy who
I think is is putting on kind of I think
I know who you're talking about but I
don't know him right I don't know him
either personally it it almost can't be
that a functioning adult can spew some
of the vacuous platitudes that he puts
out on his Twitter feed it's impossible
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we can conquer War through love oh geez
if if only the Nazis had been more
loving than we wouldn't have had it you
know okay that's ridiculous I admit but
here you have to Anchor to something
yeah right so for instance when I had
Neil deGrasse Tyson on the show he said
uh I don't think I'm right for your show
and I was like well why and he was like
you're trying to bend everything to
empowerment and I was like these are not
the actual words he used but this is the
punchline and he was right and so but
I'm not being fake but at the same time
it forced the interview into an angle so
I think
look we're talking about Lex Friedman
yes I think okay yes so uh do not know
him have never met him
do I think that he owns a position that
puts him into at times he's being silly
and naive but I fall into the same
bucket of trying to make things like you
can take control and you can find your
way out so I understand how I'm just as
guilty of something so if I look at my
own behavior I'm like what am I trying
to do I'm trying to Anchor my life I
need a way to think about the world I
need a way to organize the complexity so
just as my eyes don't go there's 17 000
photons in this wavelength bouncing off
of that quarter inch of thing it just
goes that's gray that's blue right right
and so ah now I can deal with the world
he we all need an orienting mechanism
yeah now
if all of us go there's limitations to
my orienting mechanism and I have to
distrust myself then you probably are in
better shape
and
I I will speak for myself if you made
fun of one of my ideas through
um satire one I'd be like I made it and
then two I'd be like it does Sting man I
won't lie yeah but at the same time it's
kind of how I think about Dave Chappelle
when he makes fun of white people right
I'm like Dave Chappelle is one of the
most insightful people I've ever seen in
my life never met him but oh dear God do
I think that we need him and so I'm like
word like I I
find it funny but that's what
anti-fragility is right I mean yes
Naseem tave was the guy who kind of
popularized that term but the concept of
anti-fragility exists since the time of
certainly Seneca so I have a in one of
the chapters of the happiness book I
have an epigraph from Seneca where he
basically argues that strong trees are
pers and that have deep roots are
precisely those that have been exposed
to severe wind stressors that that
that's why they then become non-brittle
trees that haven't been exposed to wind
stressors then break off very easily
well of course that anti-fragility
concept squeaky doors don't break that
which doesn't kill you makes you
stronger that those Concepts those
maxims apply to your ideas being
scrutinized right so for example when I
went after uh Sam Harris's ideas or when
I go after the full positivity of Lex
Friedman a in my view someone with
testicular attitude would basically say
hey God love that why don't you come on
my show and let's hash it out or hey why
don't I come on your show because right
there there has never been a context
where I've said something and that I
wasn't willing to stand by it because
for better or worse when I say something
good luck to you if you want to debate
me on it because I I just like you I
have epistemic humility I'm very
modulated about what I know and what I
don't know when I know something I walk
with the Swagger of someone who knows it
but there's a million things that I know
almost nothing about so if you ask me
what has been the repercussions of the
legalization of marijuana in Canada you
know you're Canadian what what do you
think you know what Tom I I know very
little about this I'm not going to try
to wing it I simply don't know enough to
offer you an intelligent answer but if
you take the positions that some of
these gentlemen or other gentlemen have
taken in the public sphere then expect
guys like me to say I'm calling you out
on it now a someone with strength with a
spine says let's hash it out but then
when you block me and all this kind of
stuff people thought oh I'm hurt I don't
care if you block me or not what it does
to me it's it's a dishonorable act it
comes from my middle eastern background
perhaps right you don't block you fight
and fight not physically right you fight
the ideas and so and go back to
happiness the reason why uh people say
you know you always seem to be you know
twinkle in your eye you always want
because I'm confident within my
personhood there are no fissures in in
God so even though I'm not a tall person
I walk as though I'm 15 feet tall why
because I exactly don't have to remember
73 stories there's only one story I
remember it's called the truth and so
that's why I think truth and freedom are
so fundamental not just as an
existential philosophical thing but to
my flourishing to my happiness to why
I'm smiling all the time because I have
a non-fractured personhood that's really
really important okay so here's a truth
and freedom which we're not on my list
of things to talk about I think are
going to become very important as we
March forward so uh here's my fear
truth is slippery it's actually
surprisingly difficult to Define and to
agree on what is true
and I sounded like a post-modern issue
yeah so follow me so this is where it's
um grabbing a hold of
when people identify the wrong answer to
a hard problem it's still worth going
are they well-meaning people now if
they're not well-intentioned people okay
now we we have to address that thing and
I think
post-modernists don't make sense to me
until I think about the will to power
once I frame them with Will To Power
then I understand them and I use a
mental exercise so my background is
filmmaking so I often think as a writer
and I think okay what would I for this
character to act this way what would
need to be true about their backstory or
their motivations when when I write them
from the perspective of this is somebody
with who's deeply insecure and they have
a Will To Power suddenly click
everything makes sense and I can predict
their behaviors so that one I'll set
aside but I will say that the I get how
they end up stacking that argument up
and I get how a potentially well-meaning
person ends up there especially with the
complexities of The Human Experience
where it's like you do want to be cool
and you do want to rise up the ranks and
you may not even put words to Oh the way
for me to climb up the hierarchy is by
playing this linguistic or laying a
linguistic trap that I know people will
walk into and now I can LeapFrog them
and you really don't think about the
second and third order consequences of
what happens to a society when you do
that and even if you do you probably
think that you're one of the prison
guards instead of the prisoners uh and
so that's his embardo reference I don't
know who that is no that was a um oh
prisoner prisoner so there was a famous
experiment in the 70s conducted by a
Stanford Professor oh yeah where he was
studying obedience to to expected nerves
and so half the students were placed as
Corrections Officers the other were
placed as prisoners and then what ended
up happening is that the the officers
assume their roles so you know uh
assiduously that he had to end the
experiment so I thought that's what you
were referring to no it's unfortunately
referring to the gulag archipelago by
Alexander Soldier knitson
um that so that that book changed me
fundamentally you can actually track in
the timeline of guests that I bring on
and questions that I ask you can see the
demarcation point of having read that
book wow because it was like oh
people end up as the guards they don't
end up as the person hiding
um Anne Frank in the Attic right so it's
like yikes that was a terrifying
realization about how easy it would be
for me to just like not want to be
tortured so I do the torturing who which
is why my opening question about facing
that so anyway back to truth so you have
this thing uh I think it is difficult to
Define I think it it is very hard so as
if if truth and freedom are gonna you
can't get to a euda monic state
where it it's fulfillment it's a depth
of thing about living the good life
without defining those right how how did
you define it so it depends if if you're
talking in the scientific context not in
the happiness context which is in the
for the current book so I do actually
have a chapter in my last book The
parasitic mind titled how to seek truth
I mean literally that's the title and
there there's a distinction between two
types of truths there are axiomatic
truths those are mathematical truths
right
so there's a mathematical property and
within the closed system of that
mathematical system something is true or
false right so mathematical logic
operates using truth and false
statements okay
how about empirical truths right so how
do we know when is it that we've
acquired enough
empirical evidence to say that something
appears to be true even though even
there it is provisionally true because
in science we always talk about
provisional truth if in 300 years you
falsify the position that we held to be
true for 300 years then it's back to the
drawing board okay and so in the so this
is in the parasitic mind not in the
happiness book uh I talk about the
building of normal logical networks of
cumulative evidence which is logical yes
nomological exactly so it's
it's where you are creating
triangulation of evidence stemming from
many different distinct lines of
evidence which then demonstrates that
your position is unassailable this
sounds very uh abstract so let me give
it with this concrete example
let's suppose I wanted to prove to you
Tom that the sex specificity of toy
preferences is universal it's not a
social construction typically social
scientists view Toy preferences as a
social construction mommy and daddy
teach Johnny to play with the blue truck
they teach Linda to play with the pink
Barbie in light of the current movie and
that's what starts us on a Cascade of
gender role specialization okay the the
opposite Viewpoint is that these toy
preferences are actually Universal for
specific biological and evolutionary
reasons so if I wanted to prove to you
that it is not social construction how
would I go about doing that so I'm going
to build you now in front of your
audience a normal logical network of
cumulative evidence that's going to make
it very difficult for you to argue away
from that position okay I'm Gonna Get
You data
from around the world very very
different cultures that show that people
with radically different environments
adhere to those sex-specific toy
preferences now that's already pretty
compelling but I'm not going to stop
there I'm Gonna Get You data from
developmental psychology whereby I take
children who are too young to be
socialized by definition in other words
they haven't yet reached the cognitive
developmental stage to learn and I could
show you that they already exhibit the
penchant for either
trucks or dolls now already there I'm
putting the epistemological Noose around
your neck but I'm not going to stop
there the normal logical network is
going to be much bigger it's going to be
a tsunami that's going to hit you I'm
going to get you data from comparative
psychology comparative psychology is
where you demonstrate the universality
of a phenomenon across different species
what if I get you data from vervet
monkeys from rhesus monkeys and from
chimpanzees that shows that they exhibit
the same sex specific toy preferences
that human infants do so now let's step
back I've gotten your data from across
cultures from across species from
developmental psychology but I'm not
going to stop there how about I get you
data from 2 000 years ago we're on
mausoleums in ancient Greece and ancient
Rome little boys and girls were shown
playing with exactly the same sex
specific toy preferences we have today
now I'm showing you that it's across
time
not not satisfied yet how about I hit
you with Pediatric Endocrinology little
girls who suffer from congenital adrenal
hyperplasia which is a endocrinological
disorder that maximizes their behavior
what do you think happens to their toy
preferences they become like those of
little boys so now I've got the new data
from Pediatrics and medicine so you see
how I'm hitting you with different lines
of evidence I'm building a normal
logical Network and it's going to be
very hard for you to argue away that's
what allows me to walk into a room of
400 social scientists imbeciles and to
be able to talk with this Swagger
because I've done my homework on the
other hand you ask me about legalization
of marijuana what do I say
I haven't built a normal logical Network
for that I don't know enough about that
Tom so you got me there I don't wing it
I don't fake it I don't pretend that I'm
the professor who's all-knowing I know
what I know and I know what I don't know
Confucius said that already so that
epistemic humility in a sense in a in a
circuitous way allows me to be happy in
a philosophical sense because I'm never
questioning what I said yesterday or
tomorrow I'm very authentic I present
myself to the world take it or leave it
wow that was a very compelling argument
and helps
um myself and anybody trying to
understand how you end up building that
web of Truth now there's another thing
so I will routinely make my expert
guests deeply uncomfortable uh by asking
them questions that they that are
outside their field and of course their
initial answer is uh marijuana I don't
know about that sorry I can't give you
any data but what I'm always curious in
is how people approach novel problems so
I used to teach a business class
um called business decision making worst
name ever my fault I chose it you know
that my doctoral dissertation is in
psychology of decision on a course I
know that come on go ahead uh no I'm so
fascinated by your background uh I know
it well
um so that class the that was me trying
to work backwards to what has made me a
successful entrepreneur and the answer
wasn't that I was the best copywriter it
wasn't that I was the best salesperson
it wasn't that I was the best at
organizing things it was that I
understand how to solve novel problems
so not just problems that I've never
seen before problems nobody's ever seen
before so how do you approach that how
do you think through it now that does
not mean that I always make the right
decision I absolutely do not but part of
my process is understanding how to learn
from mistakes something I call the
physics of progress but how do you so
you get nomological we we've got
unlocked that was incredible
now what do you do when you approach a
problem you've never seen before no
one's ever seen before but it still has
to be dealt with phenomenal question it
speaks to something that you mentioned
earlier but then we skipped by it when
you talked about intellectual variety
thing so when I so I have a chapter on
variety seeking I talk about food
variety seeking sexual variety seeking
we'll talk about it yeah exercise
variety seeking and probably probably
the the section that I spent the most
time on was intellectual variety seeking
and I'm going to come to your question
about the novel situations
so there I contrast the specialist to
the generalist the idea is so let's say
in Academia and we talked about this
briefly before we we came on I came on
the show
Academia rewards hyper Specialists you
stay in your lane you you know a lot
about a very very small problem don't
ever step out of the lane but the truly
biggest thinkers are exactly those that
violate that tenet are the ones who are
polymaths in their core being and so one
of the things that I talk about in that
section
I have this exercise of who are the 10
historical figures that you'd like to
have dinner with if you could bring them
and I list all mine and why and the
number one guy the guy that I would most
want uh I don't obviously know what his
personality would be like but based on
what he presented to the world is
Leonardo Da Vinci because Leonardo da
Vinci is the ultimate generalist he's he
is a painter
crate Renown he's an anatomist he's a
futurist he's an engineer he's a
scientist so he's he's wearing many hats
and so I don't think you can solve some
of the most important novel problems if
they're not at the cusp of
interdisciplinarity the mapping of the
human genome required experts in many
many different fields putting their
brains together as a Supra brain and
it's that that the multitude the buffet
of expertise that allowed us to crack
the human genome so in my own academic
career I've to a fault violated the stay
in your lane tenant because I've had
universities some of them very
prestigious universities who were quite
keen on hiring me and then the thing
that ended it other than me being rather
irreverent and rather not gentle spoken
is the fact that they said your CV is
all over the place you don't seem to
have a unifying you know area of
research well actually that's wrong
because what is usually unifying across
all my various studies is the
evolutionary lens now it is true that
I've published in medicine in politics
in advertising in decision making in
bibliometrics but typically for each of
those various disciplines I'm infusing
some evolutionary angle so they thought
of it as scattered I think of it as you
know the ultimate polymath generalist
and so I don't think you can really
crack some of those novel problems if
you don't have here's another term
you're going to like if you don't have a
consilient synthetic way of thinking
consilience is a term that was
reintroduced into the Lexicon by E.O
Wilson who's the Harvard biologist who
recently passed away a great book by the
way I recommend for all your readers to
read it after they buy the sad truth
about happiness the book is called
consilience colon Unity of knowledge
consilience basically means
well exactly that Unity of knowledge so
physics is more concilient than
sociology not because physicists are
smarter than sociologists but it's
because physicists have a tree of
knowledge that is coherent they all
agree on some fundamentals whereas in
sociology we can't agree on what's man
or woman then there's going to be very
quickly a bifurcation in our World Views
if we can't agree on that fundamental
fact so having a conciliant mindset
being a generalist in my view are
probably the best ways to crack novel
problems wow okay
uh that's really interesting you're
right that I love that consilience idea
I had not thought about that you've also
introduced I think one of the things
that maybe I find most uneasy about the
fact that there's this Bedrock thing
that my generation grew up you just it I
didn't even think about it it was the
the most obvious bifurcation was men and
women and there were so many things and
so uh boys and girls one thing that will
lead to happiness I'll be very curious
to see if you disagree with this
um is your ability to predict the future
accurately and I think our brains are a
prediction engine that's what makes it
so valuable that's what it's optimized
for and whether that's predicting
movement maybe that's how it all started
but certainly it's it's predictive
abilities go way beyond that the thing
that you have said is most important
there are two things in your book you
say marriage getting your spouse right
and then getting your work right yes and
if you get your the main love of your
life and your career if you do those
well then then you're golden
and to that point the reason I'm very
uneasy about the world not being able to
agree on what a man and woman is is that
I've been married for 21 years it is by
far the greatest joy of my life and I'm
talking I've made a lot of money
and I'm just here to tell you as
powerful as money is it will not bring
to your life what a thriving marriage in
a million years so
my wife becomes predictable to me when I
think of her in classic feminine ways
and she becomes unpredictable to me when
I think she's like me
and at the beginning of our marriage it
was very confusing because I didn't
think about it so I just assumed that
she was like me so I did not have the
consilience is that the word of
knowledge at the time and was blind to
the fact that I didn't have that and so
there was so much friction and a lot of
that friction has worked out over time
by literally spending research hours on
what are the differences between men and
women right and as the two of us did
that we were like oh my God that's why
you act like that and it just became so
much easier to deal with so there's a
famous uh scene in King of Queens I
don't know if you remember do you
remember that that sitcom never watched
it but I know it it's it's basically
kind of this uh affable uh blue-collar
guy Kevin James he's married to Leah
Remini yes uh is that the remedy is that
former Scientologist I don't know that's
right that's how it said and uh they're
having a fight because his
um
she has a friend or he I don't know I
don't know these have details but
there's this Chef he's a portly fellow
he likes to eat a lot there's this uh
friend who's a chef who's cooking him
all these meals so he's chatting with
her on the phone uh she's cooking her
meals at work whatever it is this is the
friend uh Leah Remini
whichever yeah uh gets jealous and
they're now fighting about the fact that
uh he says but you know I'm not having
sex with her I'm not being unfaithful to
you and she she says of course you are
being unfaithful to me so now they have
a big fight as to what constitutes
infidelity now let me bring bring
evolutionary psychology into this
because as I watched that episode I
could literally link every word that's
mentioned from the script writers to a
fundamental evolutionary principle I
discussed this actually in my 2011 book
The consuming Instinct so
there's great studies that show that men
and women to your point about
understanding these differences are
equally romantically jealous so it's not
that men are more jealous than women or
vice versa
but here is the evolutionary Insight the
trigger
is different for men and women there are
two types of infidelities there's sexual
infidelity and there is emotional
infidelity so if I bring in people into
the lab and by the way the study that
I'm describing was done by David Buss
and his colleagues who's a pioneer of
evolution psychology and a good friend
of mine who actually wrote the preface
of the consuming Instinct uh you bring
in people into the lab and you actually
put physiological measures on them so
that you know that it's an autonomic
response that you're measuring it's not
that they are you know altering their
answer to for impression management or
whatever so you can do skin conductivity
thing you can do heart you know blood
pressure you can do it's all kinds of
ways you can measure autonomic responses
and now I'm going to read you one of two
vignettes about your partner your
husband or wife uh let's do both
irrespective of whether it's for a man
or a woman yeah you're sitting right
here in the lab Tom your wife is having
some really juicy sex with the super
sexy Greek Gardener mull that in your
little head for a while now let's see
the stress level or hey Tom so now this
is the emotional infidelity hey your
your wife uh goes to lunch with her
caught with his her colleague who's this
really fun affable guy they joke around
they talk about their shared values so
it's emotional absolutely no sex guess
what happens to the the difference
between men and women men respond much
more harshly when cued with sexual
infidelity women respond much more
harshly with emotional infidelity so
crazy to me that is why I am The
Godfather okay so now why is that what's
the evolutionary reason the greatest
threat to a man's evolutionary interest
is paternity uncertainty therefore the
thought of my wife going with another
man and we're a biparental species I
don't like the idea of being called it
therefore I've evolved the emotional
cognitive and Behavioral Systems to
really respond harshly
to sexual territoriality infractions on
the other hand for women not that they
are terribly pleased if you cheat on
them sexually but they're more
displeased if you cheat on them
emotionally because that is a greater
predictor you mentioned earlier I want
to predict that is a greater predictor
of the likelihood of your man packing
his bags and leaving either literally or
metaphorically okay and therefore
that's why by the way when a man often
cheats on a woman and now he's trying to
assuage her anger what does he say
whether right it meant nothing exactly
it meant nothing I don't even remember
her name I'll never see her again why
because he is assuaging the fact this is
not a repeat thing there's no chance
there could ever be any emotional
entanglement involved here so this gives
you an example number one of the value
of evolutionary psychology
and the value of something as practical
as why men and women so often speak in
completely non-intersecting ways because
we're not using theory of mind with the
other sex right so for example when men
send if you forgive the term dick pics
to women they are exactly engaging in a
violation of theory of mind because what
are they doing they're saying I get
titillated by visual stimuli therefore
it must be the case that women art
titillated in exactly the same way guess
what Einstein they're not do you know
how badly I want my wife to want me to
send her dick pics it's so I feel dumb
because I know that she doesn't but I
can't help wanting her to want me to do
it I know better so I don't but like
yeah I get it I get it so that by the
way when I lecture to my university
students about you know first class you
know why am I going to teach this whole
course using an evolutionary lens
I usually will come up with a few of
these examples like they're all young
people that have boyfriends and
girlfriends that where they get jealous
and so that's how I grip them because I
explain to them that it's not
understanding evolutionary theory it's
not some you know uh highfalutin you
know scientific thing that is void of
practical value it allows me to
understand why people want the corner
big office it allows me to understand I
always tell them I guarantee you
there'll be three four people in this
room that in the next two three years
years will send me an email saying oh I
just had a fight with my husband and
wife and it's exactly because of lecture
three from your course I remember you
said about romantic so that and I guess
that speaks a bit to the next book that
I might be writing the power of
evolutionary thinking no huge
um okay so wrapping up on a variety of
ideas
what is it about
variety that matters because it isn't
just challenging your own ideas it's
also in the book you talk about
the most eminent scientists will have
the broadest interests outside of their
field exactly so what's at play well
that because that is a proxy measure of
them having that mindset of consilience
right I can both be a photographer and a
Nobel Prize winner and what I have
multiple so for example let's give it a
clear example analogical reasoning
genological analogy like from analogy
yeah the ability to draw analogies to
demonstrate a mechanism is actually
often an important scientific tool
you're much less likely to be able to do
analogical reasoning well if you're not
someone who has multiple interests
because by definition once I have
multiple interests I'm able to analogize
from domain a to domain B hence allowing
me to build Bridges between these
otherwise disparate areas right and so I
can connect many parts by being able to
have that synthetic mindset and so
so if I'm a practical perspective having
a pension for intellectual variety
seeking makes sense but just from the
banal perspective of the number of
ecosystems that I would like to visit in
my life there is a million Buffet dishes
of intellectual Pursuits that I'd like
to navigate I don't want to just be
the very narrow guy now they are very
clear practical reasons why researchers
are very narrow because it allows them
to build economies of scale I already
have the methodology set up to run these
studies at infinitum I already know the
literature really well it's very hard
for me when I want to publish a paper as
I did on sex differences in OCD and why
that has an evolutionary signature well
now I have to do the hard work I'm not
an OCD researcher that's not my area of
specialty now I have to get
uncomfortable in going to learn a whole
new area to hopefully have the hutzpah
to contribute to that field but guess
what life is exciting that way I'm
sampling from many many dishes of
intellectual spaces and so just from
that perspective it's so much more
exciting which by the way links up to
another chapter in the book which is the
title the chapter is life as a
playground right it's everything is play
right science itself is the highest form
of play what is science it's puzzle
making right there's a bunch of
variables I don't know which ones cause
which other ones now let's have fun and
figure out the story here you you were
mentioning you're a story you love
stories right well we are a storytelling
animal and science is telling a
compelling story using evidence to back
it up so having that playful mindset
sometimes being humorous sometimes being
variety Seekers sometimes being
sarcastic life is so much poor if you
don't have that mindset
play is very interesting but there's
also something that's tickling in my
mind about what you were talking about
in terms of having a broad set of
interests that I want to see if I can
pull this out so
we've got the ability to make cross
connections and if I'm not mistaken the
the
people the only people that have won
multiple Nobel prizes have always been
at the intersection of two different
disciplines like they've been a
biologist and a chemist or something
like that I'm not sure do you know not
exactly that it is true that many of the
biggest uh breakthroughs in science
happen at the intersection of
disciplines I think what you're
referring to is what you mentioned
earlier which is Nobel Prize winners on
average have greater number of broad
interests than non-nobel Prize winners
in other words there is something unique
about the the broadness of interest that
Nobel laureates have outside their areas
of expertise they're also photographers
they also love Ceramics they also take
Tango classes Richard Feynman was a
bongo player and so they're not just
these Geeks that only know this one
little thing
yeah I'm not even sure yet what I'm
trying to
um piece together but I have a feeling
and it could be tied to the playfulness
but even thinking about my own life that
they're because I have multiple areas of
Interest there's something about the way
that they put me into they have a
similar response that I get when I'm
meditating
it's a similar response that I think
people get when they do psychedelic
drugs that is very tied to this idea of
you have a better ability to think an
analogy and it's
when I think of why meditation works it
puts you in a calm and creative state
but that's not interesting in and of
itself it's only interesting because
areas of my brain that wouldn't that
normally would not connect begin
connecting right and when you're able to
draw on a bunch of areas where I mean
maybe not a full-blown expert but you've
got some pretty deep experience you've
encountered other Minds you've
encountered other ways of thinking about
the problem that are sometimes radically
different you're able to really take the
3D object that is our lives not that's
definitely analogy I don't mean that
literally but you're rotating it and now
looking at it from a completely
different angle and if you've ever seen
those
um Shadow sculptures that are made up of
like a thousand what look like pieces of
junk and then you move the light and
suddenly it it creates a shadow that's
like a person's face or it may even
become a sculpture of the person's face
when seen from one angle a different
angle
and that feels like part of the puzzle
and that that is certainly part of my
addiction to learning new things
and maybe it just comes back to your
nomological right sense so recently I
have um found a new passion which is
history which literally until I don't
know maybe 18 months two years ago I
didn't think about at all and now all of
a sudden which which type of history is
it American history is it European
history it's been more about
uh my anchor was trying to understand
how wrong bad ideas go
so this started with I had an Awakening
to wokeness which you and I were talking
about before we started rolling so it
completely caught me off guard I didn't
know it was a thing until it was fully
baked right and so I encountered it in
its final Pokemon form and it it took me
so off guard I was like what the is
this it was completely disorienting and
so it it was like that moment where I'm
seeing the entire world now from a
totally different perspective that I did
not even know existed and so I was like
huh and I didn't have to your point if
somebody had asked me like why is why
does it unnerve you that gender is a
spectrum like why do you have a like huh
like an uneasy feeling when somebody
says that because I don't have
um a problem with any somebody's
transgender I'm not beef with that live
your life do you me too but yet when
somebody's like gender is a spectrum
then I'm like hmm that doesn't sit well
with me and I'm not sure why yet and so
anyway as I start going down that road I
realize oh actually my bigger problem is
people saying that I'm bad for
questioning that so my real beef is
people saying I can't look at an idea
and so this is all for me a lot of this
really kicked off during covid so I also
have people telling me I can't question
anything about that so I start to get
this really uneasy feeling about why are
people telling me I can't look at ideas
I have just enough stubbornness in me
and real problem with authority that I
was like I need to wrap my head around
what this is because I'm being hit with
ideas that are too subtle and I don't
know how to combat them obviously you
discover Jordan Peterson as you go on
this journey and so I start looking at
he was the one that introduced me to the
gulag archipelago so I read that it's
like holy you learn about Mao you
read about Mao then you just start
thinking about humans very differently
so anyway it's it's been things like
that so I haven't targeted a given area
at first it was just learning about Mao
Stalin
um and
Hitler and like really getting my head
around that and then the American West
and like how people can kill and not
seem to have a problem with it so anyway
that's a long-winded answer to
everything I'm going to tie a few of
these things together so uh we were
talking earlier about you know how you
can incorporate evolutionary thinking in
many different disciplines so there is a
very very small group of people who are
called darwinian historians whereby they
study historical realities using a
darwinian lens you follow what I mean
now what so what would what would be an
example of that so there is a woman
called Laura betsick who is a darwinian
historian one of the few who could call
herself that where she did a study a
Content analysis of the Old Testament
which is a historical document where she
wanted to demonstrate that the content
of the Old Testament contains certain
fundamental evolutionary principles so
what did she do
so we know from evolutionary theory and
just from life in general that one of
the ways that men well the main way that
men vary in terms of their uh sexual uh
opportunities is their social status all
other things equal the higher my social
status the more sexual opportunities I
have okay because that is the universal
attribute that women seek most often
irrespective of the culture and
irrespective of the fact that the way
that social status is measured varies
across cultures and one culture it might
be the number of cattle that I have and
the other culture it might be that I
have an Ivy League degree and another
one it might be that I have how many
zeros I have in the bank account but
what is clear is that no woman's ever
said give me a apathetic pear-shaped
nasal voiced unemployed guy let's have
sex I'm really turned on that's the guy
that's the guy okay so what she wanted
to demonstrate in in doing a Content
analysis of the Old Testament is that
but if you look at male protagonists in
the Old Testament and you code their
status are they they're a king they're a
prophet they're a general they're a
soldier they're a farmer they're a slave
and then a tribute well calculate how
many women or concubines or wives are
attributed to them you should exactly
see that the higher the status of the
male protagonist in the Old Testament
the more women he has and guess what
that's exactly what she found so in this
case she's looking at arguably the most
important historical document in you
know judeo-christian tradition and she's
applying a darwinian lens which speaks
to our earlier discussion when I talked
about darwinian literary criticism which
is looking at actual documents
conducting an analysis of those
documents say literature using an
evolutionary lens so that's the reason
why I love evolutionary psychology so
much because once you learn the
coherence the parsimony the explanatory
power that the framework gives you
you're done man you've solved all the
world's problems at least you can
explain all of the phenomena that's
really interesting so bringing this back
to how we ended up here which is the
idea of New Perspectives
as you
get a wider body of knowledge you're
able to see things from a different
perspective once you can line up those
perspectives now all of a sudden you can
rotate the object however you want to
see things from a given lens that's very
useful in terms of understanding other
people and
there's really two ways I think
incessantly about what I want this show
to be and what I want people to take
away and what the unifying factor is
which either on camera or off I may try
to persuade you to try to bring more
Unity to your brand
um
is
one I don't want to get trapped in an
oversimplification two I really want to
be exploring different things uh
different perspectives the reason I want
to explore different perspectives is so
I can see life the beautiful Game of
Life from as many different angles as I
can one so that I can't be controlled by
it so you know the Matrix has you kind
of thing if you understand the Matrix
and how it works then you can I mean in
a metaphor you can manipulate it to your
will in reality you you can get close to
the idea of a reality Distortion field
where not you're not really sort of
changing the construct of the Matrix but
when
somebody's been parasitized by an idea
it doesn't have to infect you because
you understand how ideas come to be
um and so
helping myself and then letting the
audience go along for the Journey of oh
here's a New Perspective to look at this
thing from to your idea of nomological
thinking
it's very interesting so understanding
other people and understanding how the
world works and by understanding others
you will understand yourself which is
where this whole interview started but
by the way uh one of the someone who
studies decision making I end up being
horrible at making certain decisions
notwithstanding that up you know how
they say Physicians heal thyself right
so uh so linking what I'm about to say
to knowledge so one of the most uh
perplexing situations in terms of my
experiencing Choice paralysis happens in
the following situation my wife and I
and kids are let's say leaving on a trip
therefore I know I have to pick a book
or two to bring with me on vacation I
empathize with this so hard I'm gonna
get a cramp is that really 100 so I and
so my wife will look and say we're
leaving in two days please begin your
Agony because I will sit like a complete
homeless guy in my study because I've
got hundreds of books that I've yet to
read and I just keep going through all
of them saying oh maybe I think it's
this one no I think it's this I think
this is the one and then I start
panicking about the fact that there is
so much knowledge only in that room that
I've yet so imagine whatever knowledge I
have right now however little or much it
is there is so little that I know
compared to what I could know and then I
have this really difficult anxious
moment and then I pick a few books uh
maybe you want to ask me which books I
picked for this trip please so I brought
a book by Edith Hall who's a classicist
do I know that name she's a classicist
who and there's a book on Aristotle that
I'm reading definitely not why I know
her okay that's not how you know
definitely not I wish I did okay never
read a book I brought another book
that's by a Libertarian I can't remember
the name of the book but it's basically
kind of government stay away out of my
business I'm uniquely attracted to that
topic because I don't I'm going to get
to that part of the interview oh let's
do it but uh just to finish that point
uh I don't like some 21 year old cop
sitting lying in wait in my residential
neighborhood to make sure that I didn't
cross the street when the sign didn't
say to cross when there aren't any cars
around and it's a one-way Street and I
think I've got the neuronal power to be
able to look and see there is no car so
I can cross yet he's hiding there and if
I cross when the lot this thing didn't
say he either gives me a warning or asks
for my ID and gives me a jaywalking
ticket that's not how I want Society to
be organized and so I was actually this
is a real story that pissed me off and
so I I got this book because I want to
read what this guy is talking about in
terms of libertarianism so those are the
two books I brought yeah that's uh that
I really get that so for me when I go
away on trips it's the only time in the
year that I'll read a fiction book and
so that's one more time than me by the
way that's interesting so you never
never and I and to Tool I I recognize
that that's the fault because there's
tons of amazing classic stuff that I
would be enriched by that's completely
invisible to me because I just have a
strong aversion to read to reading
fiction maybe you can help me well let
me walk you through my decision making
process so as a kid it was the only
thing I would read and so it opened me
up to that world I owe and I know that
this is not going to be a name you love
but I owe Stephen King a debt of
gratitude and he he is the reason I read
and reading changed my life yes and I
still remember the opening line of the
first book that I read by him Carrie no
the first book was the Gunslinger The
Dark Tower series and uh my dad made an
appeal to me because I said I'm never
reading another book this is garbage I
don't know why people do this or like
this and he said look I'm gonna
recommend one more book if you don't
like this book wow I'll never give you
his gifts yeah and so he gave me that
book from the first line I was like holy
this is interesting so that changed
my life so for a long time it was just
fiction and then I got to the point
where uh you've given me such a cool way
to understand what I've been chasing all
these years with nomatological
nomological thank you I'll listen to the
interview over and all I I will
eventually learn this word
um so the the being able to really see
the problem from a lot of different
perspectives
and the way I always explained it to
people is I read in swarms and so I'll
pick a topic and I'll try to see it from
all different angles and uh that I
realized the density of information in a
non-fiction book comes so rapid that I
just couldn't bring myself to read
fiction anymore because it was so slow
you get an Insight but the book usually
takes one topic explores it like a theme
and then you get their take on the theme
but just the the density of information
isn't there and so I issued it for
probably more than a decade and then
um I might have been in my wife's
encouraging she was like we're going on
vacation why don't you take a fiction
book because you're sort of lamenting
that you never read fiction anymore why
don't you take it and so I did and I
found it
um incredible and because in vacation
I'm not in a I need the information to
come fast I just want to relax and enjoy
something then I can enjoy it but I
can't enjoy it the rest of the time wow
and so but on vacation I will read one
fiction book and it's a joy please email
me after the show you're five books that
you think I must be reading in fiction
world the bad news is I read so little
fiction all I can do is recommend the
ones I liked which you may hate but I
will happily okay
um so I don't know that I made a great
pitch for why you should be reading more
fiction but that's I'll make a for
why I should be reading more fiction so
we we touched upon this before we
started rolling so the field of
darwinian literary criticism argues that
the reason why we love literature so
much and it grips us and it titillates
us is because it is typically covering a
set of fundamental evolutionary
imperatives and we we discussed those
earlier right uh parent child conflict
uh sexual jealousy paternity uncertainty
the stuff of Life the The evolutionary
dramas and so I think that there are
ways for me as an evolutionist to see
these mechanisms at play
when it's encapsulated in a powerful
story we are a storytoring telling
animal so why don't I
look for some of these evolutionary
signatures in a great piece of
literature so that would be my pitch as
to why I should be reading more fiction
yeah deep Look Into The Human Condition
one book I really want to read not books
I don't even know which books he wrote
but
um Dostoyevsky yeah is someone I just
hear people that I respect so I did read
so about 25 years ago
knowing myself and my weaknesses knowing
that I don't nearly know enough fiction
as I should considering myself a
well-read person I said I'm going to
read Crime and Punishment I bought it
and I probably got through a third of it
not and I didn't stop because I got
bored right just because something else
grabbed my interest so it's interesting
that you mentioned dosesque because I
really tried to go after him yeah that
that's when I would regret if I never
read the sort of greats especially of
for whatever reason they have a
reputation because I cannot vouch for it
but Russian literature when you talk to
people like what are those game-changing
looks at Humanity which you're
absolutely right about what makes
reading fiction interesting is that uh
those guys come up what what do you have
any speculative reasons as to why you
think the Russian authors are uniquely
capable at generating that literature so
we are now at your version of not
knowing about weed legalization in
Canada right so approaching a novel
problem just based on things that I've
heard I'm not even sure that that I
would have enough information on how to
approach it so if I wanted to go figure
out that answer then I would have to
triangulate around the things that I've
heard people say and it's things like
they take an unflinching look at the
complexities of The Human Experience
interesting and so I have a feeling that
it's something like given the conditions
of a country that has really struggled
with freedoms that you you run into the
best and the worst of humanity you run
in and again I'm guessing but this is if
you want to understand that's a lot
better answer than I would have given
you about legalization of marijuana so I
think you were being quite humble
because that sounded like a professor of
literature speaking wow
as the Brits would say I'm blagging it
right now
um so yeah that's what I want it to be
how about that and if it is that then uh
wow do I really look forward reading it
because this goes back to the why the
way that I'm approaching history why am
I approaching it that way in fact I'm
gonna uh maybe at the risk of of losing
the audience there's some a person I
want to talk about I don't even know who
to invite on the show to talk about it
so we'll try it against you I'm reading
a book on Churchill right now and he is
beyond fascinating I just watched the
movie really like Gary Oldman yeah oh
phenomenal just watch phenomenal a very
small part of what makes him interesting
right
to me so do you know much about his
background uh I mean he was a soldier he
said some pretty frontal things about
his disdain for Islam I know that there
are some very famous there's some very
famous quotes that he has about you know
his aversion to Islam uh and not match
else I don't know much about him okay so
here's what I find interesting keeping
in mind I'm sure he has abhorrent
beliefs on many things that I would it
would curl my eyelashes
um I'm not a throw the baby out with the
bathwater kind of guy so I reading about
his life so he was one even as a young
man he wrote a letter to his mom and he
said I hunger so much to have a
reputation for physical bravery that
basically I'll do anything and so he
sent himself into war zones and I'll
hear stories about like Americans that
go over to fight in uh the Ukraine and
I'm like I'm sorry what like the people
volunteer really like go to another
country to fight I just I don't braver
than me like all the accolades whatever
I I just can't imagine and so reading
that was the first time again I've
suddenly had a glimpse into the
complexity of The Human Condition and I
saw a guy who had something he wanted to
prove so desperately that he was willing
to risk his life and I was like whoa
that's interesting I'm not saying good
or bad I'm just saying it's interesting
and then he becomes a politician in the
UK because he really believes in like
wherever you live you should be you
should go for your country you should
believe in your country and he even said
about Hitler he said
um look
that I respect that he is he wants to be
a good German and he's proud of his
country now nobody thought Hitler was a
bigger psychopath and needed to be
stopped then Churchill right so the fact
that he can parse like hey it's good I
think it's right that people should be
um should be pro- their country even if
their
on the losing side because he was right
and I'll get to this in a minute he
fought in World War one right he beat
the Germans and obviously would have
thought that they were terrible horrible
but he still understood like you should
be proud of you know where you come from
and so
um that whole idea was very interesting
to me but so you get this guy he really
believes that you should stand up for
your country goes into politics because
he thinks that's going to be the best
way that he can serve he gets put in
charge of a part of the military and I
forget it might have even been in or
around Lebanon oh god oh is that right
yes I can't swear to it so maybe that's
where his Islamic aversion comes from in
that region right now we are outside
this is now data and I can't give you
data I can only give you my
interpretation of the man but anyway so
he he has a region that he's in charge
of and he puts a plan together executes
it and it doesn't work and so he's now
out and he gets kicked out of that he's
basically out of the government and
he already I think at that point wants
to be prime minister one day but he's
probably in his early 30s at this point
he doesn't become Prime Minister I think
until the 60s right so uh
he then is like how do I earn my way
back
this has himself sent to
the front lines of World War One
says I want to be in the literal
trenches they're like hold on hold on
you're you're whatever Master sorry I
don't know what his rank was but it was
high and they were like that is so
unorthodox why on Earth would you do
that and he said because that's the
honorable thing to do if I can't serve
in the government I want to be on the
front line I want to be as much in
danger as my troops are and he said he
would go on the front lines and
immediately everybody thought he was his
Brash and he said within 48
hours they would be on my team because I
was courageous I would go like he said
people started being afraid to other
biographers maybe it's a better way
other biographers have said people would
start out like they'd be afraid to go on
patrol with him because he seems so
unafraid to your earlier point about
there's like an optimal courage and
maybe he was a little bit too far yeah
and so he would just like talk like hey
I found a hole in their lines and
people's like you need to be
quiet and so uh people said he wouldn't
Flinch like if bombs will go off near
him he doesn't Flinch he would hear a
bullet crack next to his head he
wouldn't Flinch and people like what are
you doing he's like the the bullet's
already gone by what does ducking now
mean right I mean just like really
really insane so I bring him up as an
example of somebody who has horrendous
flaws right and yet like is also
incredibly interesting and if people can
begin to parse these things out
and really begin to understand
um
A New Perspective a new way to look at
themselves to look at the world becomes
very very interesting
I think you only find some of these
perspectives by looking at religion and
history
and I think those things because they're
the biggest moments right they are the
things that survive the longest that
there's there there is a glimpse into
the complexity of the human condition
that I want for everyone and I want I
accidentally found my way to that in
this time of such tremendous uncertainty
because of what we were talking about
earlier with Sam Harris the velocity of
information everything being forced into
a meme
um and just the the difficulty there is
in holding a nuanced position
speaking of religion you mentioned
religion in history yesterday I appeared
on a show I I don't know if they'd want
me to mention which well I guess I
posted already on social media I didn't
know that they were quite religious as a
outfit uh now I'm not someone who's very
religious I'm very much steeped in my
Jewish identity but I'm not you know I
don't go to synagogue you know 25 times
a year and so on uh
but there was an incident that had not
incident but there was a something that
happened that actually was incredibly
touching so the gentleman who picked me
up to drive me to the location he works
at this outfit uh it's about an hour and
a half away we're staying we're in
Newport Beach uh about an hour and a
half away picks me up I do the show and
then drives me back to our condo in
Newport Beach
he says do you mind if I pray for you
before we leave the car now
I'm not someone who typically would have
expect you know I I didn't know exactly
what what to do of course I want to be
respectful so I said sure So he kind of
puts his hand and he starts you know
speaking to you know father blah blah
but it was so touching it was so pure
that even though I'm someone who's not
particularly religious I can really
appreciate the purity of spirit that
this guy had it was just it was really
it was magical and it didn't suddenly
convert me to being a whatever but I
just I mean that speaks in a sense to
tolerating the fact that people can have
completely different World Views but yet
we can truly coexist and I don't mean
that in the full positivity sense I can
attack religion in a quite caustic
manner only when religion tries to make
claims that are within the realm of
science so if you make a religious claim
that I know contradicts a scientific
tenet then I will come after you not
because I hate religious people but
because you're making a religious
statement or proposition that I think I
know to be false but the idea that
people could be religious as an
evolutionist I fully understand the fact
that the default value for most people
is to be images it actually takes a a
clear outlier to be a non-believer and
so I thought that yesterday's uh brief
moment was really special and when I got
home my wife asked so how was it and I
told her the story her first reaction
was well how did you how did you react I
mean it's not I don't sit and do Grace
at the table and so for a guy to put his
hand on me and start doing this these
sort of incantations to God but in a
very pure lovely way was was actually
quite beautiful I love that man I love
that
um I feel very similar so I don't
believe in God
uh but I would have a very similar
reaction like when somebody is being
very sincere and they're you know
pouring love authentic yeah no it's
really nice Eric Weinstein do you know
Eric I do I've been to his house uh for
Shabbat yes me too that's exactly what I
was going to say so I thought it was
such a kind and beautiful act for him to
invite my wife and I and we went like
really sincerely like I'm going to
approach this as if I were a Believer
right and open my heart up to it and
that's I think I don't want to put words
in his mouth but that feels like his
approach because I don't think he
believes in God God I hope not
misrepresenting that but I'm pretty sure
he doesn't and so for him though to step
inside of that ritual
um
yeah I don't want to speak for him but
for me there there is something very
interesting I'd love to get your take on
this there's something very interesting
that if you didn't quote in the book you
certainly have quoted in interviews
which is uh and you're I think you're
quoting the Bible I kneel before no man
but I kneel before God yes that's very
much of a Jewish eating it's it's the
the idea that you never base yourself to
a human being only to God uh I love that
because I am a very proud person and
that uh so for example I recently we
discussed this off air I recently had a
garfuffle situation in Quebec where I
dared make fun of the Quebec accent in a
completely jocular innocent way and
people came after me in ways that are
just shockingly vicious more death
threats more deaths
I've never had nearly as many uh
requests to have me fired from my really
tenured full professorship because I
criticized a an accent but my point is
that a lot of people said well why don't
you just why are you being stubborn why
don't you just apologize and move on I
said but that that would attack my sense
of dignity it's not that I it's not that
I am averse to apologizing when I do
something wrong right I think I
mentioned I don't know if it was on this
show I mentioned that if my dog comes to
greet me and I don't pay attention to
her then I'll go and apologize because I
was Curt to my dog so it's not that I'm
too prideful to ever apologize but I'm
certainly not going to abase myself and
kneel to you to placate you when I know
that I've done nothing wrong and so yes
you're right I have quoted that that
powerful line because it's very apt but
as a non-believer how do you think about
that
basically Walk Tall uh believe so here I
will use a call a cry to to battle that
I use in the last chapter of the
parasitic mind where I ask people to
activate their inner honey badger and
they're the reason why I use the the
imagery of the honey badger is because
the honey badger has been identified as
the most ferocious and fierce animal in
the animal kingdom those things are
crazy they're insane I mean six Lions
will run away from an animal that that's
the size of a small dog why because it
is just so ferocious well when I'm
saying activate you in her honey badger
I'm not saying be physically violent but
I'm saying that if you have a set of
principles that you strongly believe in
and if you think you've got the normal
logical Network that can back you up
don't curl away in a in a fetal position
and suck your thumb and start crying and
and begging for forgiveness I have
nothing to to be forgiven because I made
fun of your accent I've lived in that
Society for 47 years I love that Society
but I I love it so much that I would
want that Society to be strong enough to
be able to withstand some guy going on
Joe Rogan and making fun of the auditory
sounds that come out when you speak that
language if you're so brittle that you
can't handle that I'm doing you a favor
by shining a light on that and therefore
I'm not going to kneel before you I'm
going to double down and triple down not
because I'm cantankerous not because I'm
frivolously combative because I'm
defending a principle I'm being a honey
badger
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Dino Tom Segura the comedian I I know by
name but I can't put a face to him yeah
I've never met him but his most recent
comedy special he does something very
similar I guess he said something making
fun of people from Louisiana
in in the previous special and he said
he got so much hate mail and like all
this stuff and so he ended up doing a
whole bit making fun of them yet again
uh just doubling down on the idea yeah I
get it I um apologies are a whole thing
because you do want to be quick to
apologize when you realize yeah I
really shouldn't have done that
but if this is a collision of values
where it's like I understand your
position yeah I just don't agree with it
exactly so now I'm not trying to piss
you off but at the same time I'm not
going to apologize by the way in in the
happiness book I have a section where I
actually talk specifically about the
right conditions under which you should
apologize and I basically argue so I use
another quote from scripture about you
know love is humble and so on the idea
that in a successful marriage you have
to have the penchant and ability that
when you've done truly something wrong
that you immediately apologize for the
idea being that if you're too prideful
to ever apologize that will eventually
probably bring the end to your marriage
because here's what happens I speak to
you you and I are married I speak to you
in a very rude way we go to bed that
night you're expecting an apology that
doesn't come there's now a fissure
between us and two weeks you'll snap at
me not because of something that
happened then but because I never closed
that Loop two weeks earlier when I spoke
to you in an Abrupt and obnoxious manner
but if I go to bed that night without us
being upset at each other because I
recognize I made an error and I
apologize for it then hopefully there
are never these visitors and I quote
this beautiful passage in a
I can't remember the name of the movie
it's in the book uh where this this
young couple uh he just had a dalliance
uh he cheated on his wife to be who is
pregnant with their kid her father tells
him well if you want to get her back you
have to be willing to do everything
possible I'm paraphrasing and never give
up and obeys yourself to no ends until
you know do everything possible that
takes humility because I'm amazing
myself so it's not that I'm not willing
to kneel and ask for forgiveness when it
is genuinely required of me so I don't
have that Pride but I'm not going to
apologize to you because I made a joke
about your accent grow up and move on
yeah I hear that so now my question
becomes what if you don't believe in God
and you have the impulse that I have
which I'm maybe you don't but I have an
Impulse to want to kneel before
something to have something bigger than
me that I can stand in awe of
and kneel before do is there something
that you kneel before that's an amazing
question so in the book I have a section
where I talk about the correlation
between religiosity and happiness yes
and it turns out that there is a
moderate positive correlation between
religiosity and happiness meaning for
some of our viewers who don't know
statistics that on average religious
people are slightly happier than
non-religious people but then to your
question I then want to assuage the the
people who are non-believers you're not
doomed to being unhappy because you're
non-believers precisely because to your
question I can go and seek those
awe-inspiring spiritual moments in in an
infinite number of ways without them
being couched in a supernatural
narrative this conversation is a
spiritual experience me meeting a guy on
the street who comes up to me as a fan
who recognized me from somewhere and
then we are caught up in a serendipitous
30-minute communion that was unexpected
is a supernatural experience so I can
see Divinity in the Majesty of life
without having to couch it in a
supernatural as a matter of fact I think
maybe I'm wrong that that makes life
that much more magisterial the fact that
I do right things not because I know
that there is a judge who will either
punish me I do the right things because
that's the deontologically correct thing
to do that makes me I think even a
better person I'm not I'm not doing it
because I'm gonna go to hell otherwise
and so I think that there are a infinite
number of ways by which we can be
spiritual not in a new age kind of
quackery sense in a true existential
sense in ways by just us now looking at
each other's eyes we are caught up in a
Tango right now of you know intellectual
ideas that is Magic and I don't need to
bring back Moses and the Ten
Commandments to to feel that Divinity
that's really interesting do you feel
like though there's something going on
in a modern context where
if we buy into the Nietzsche idea that
God has said which I do even though I
can feel religion is coming back but it
people are relating to it I think in a
in a very different way so I'll use
Jordan Peterson exactly that yeah so
this is this really fascinated me so
pre-sickness he's the internet's dad
and post sickness is now on a religious
Arc yeah and I didn't understand it at
first and then I realized
um he sees something Universal in
religion that without that Universal
thing that people tend to drift and when
there is no superseding like really
super seeding everything else where
people believe everyone believes that
the the God is in control uh and that
one ought to do the things that God
commands once you get that and and I'm
very much putting words in his mouth and
and thankfully he's coming on the show
in November I think
um but
you when you you get hyper fragmentation
and that hyper fragmentation becomes a
problem of its own and so even though he
has historically said that he doesn't
believe he's also yes uh worried about
Richard Dawkins for instance continually
pushing some of their little yeah what
do you think about that look uh so there
are functional reasons why it makes
sense to believe right so in other words
even as a as an evolutionist who is not
much of a Believer i s I completely
understand the reflex for why people
need to believe so in Richard Dawkins
case I think he's being unnecessarily
caustic and that he doesn't even allow
what I just said right religion sucks
it's for idiots let's move on whereas I
say look religion makes a lot of false
claims but I get why people are
religious now the the reason why I think
in some cases religion is problematic is
for the following
and actually I have a chapter in the
consuming Instinct where I expand on
what I'm about to say suppose you're a
martian that comes to the Earth to visit
and you're shopping for the one true
religion I use the the language of
consumer psychology
and you start asking a bunch of
questions so that you find out what is
the position on each of the competing
religions on that question from the most
banal question to the deepest and most
profound question I can find you two
religions if not many more than two
religions that prescribe the exact
opposite prescription for each of those
questions so somebody's lying and
somebody's not telling the truth so in
other words real the content of religion
includes an
insurmountable amount of
but the reflex to believe in something
bigger than you
it's completely understandable and I
think that's what Jordan Taps into does
that make sense it does very much now uh
how do you deal with the act as if
philosophy so that was George I don't
know if this is still how he explains it
I don't know if there's a God but I act
as if there's one I think because of the
organizing principle yeah bless Pascal
the philosopher you say that you like
that huh
look and I even speak French so even the
french-speaking guy gets into trouble
when he makes fun of the Quebec French
I heard for the record though what you
said was the way the Lebanese speak
French were the Italians of the
international French accent something
like that like it's you know I was
speaking about for Arabic that the
Arabic is
so close yeah but but thank you for
having listened to that uh bless Pascal
had a two by two Matrix if you like like
the original game theoretic argument I
don't know if you know what game theory
is yes briefly Game Theory so think
about say the prisoner's dilemma
prisoner's dilemma is the Classic Game
Theory uh context whereby the cops find
two criminals that are working in
cahoots they separate them I mean as
literally happens as a fundamental
practice of policing and then you take
each one and each of them can uh confess
or not so basically it's a two by two
Matrix prisoner a can confess or not
prisoner B can confess or not so there
are four possibilities but they don't
know prisoner a doesn't know what
prisoner B is going to do and vice versa
and therefore depending on what ends up
happening there are different payoffs in
terms of how much your sentence will be
if we both don't confess we get all free
if I confess but he doesn't I get and so
on well bless Pascal proposing exactly
same thing several hundred years ago
where he said God could exist or not and
I can believe or not and therefore let's
go through all of the four cells and
then show that it is optimal to then
believe so that's the functional
argument for why you should believe if
God exists and you believe you're in
good shape if God exists and you don't
believe you're going to be in trouble
and so on okay and so uh I get that
argument but now this is where my Purity
strand comes in my truth stand strand
comes in whereby I say is it okay to
believe in something that is false if it
if I reap functional benefits from it
and it's tough one yeah right because if
you have a four-year-old child that God
forbid is stricken with cancer God
forbid exactly uh I used it advisedly
precisely because we're talking about
that usually I would flippantly say
Darwin forbid but so so God forbid he is
stricken with cancer
uh boy is it a lot easier to navigate
through this infinite cruel reality if I
believe in a God because God calls his
angels to be closer to him because God
works in mysterious ways there is a plan
as to why little Timmy died of leukemia
boy that's easier than saying random
happens and tough luck for Timmy
and that's just what it is and so there
are so many functional reasons for why
people believe and therefore bless
Pascal said so just shut up and believe
it's really interesting so
um
here's another angle on that so
perspectives perspectives so the irony
is I think that
um Richard Dawkins understands all the
pieces that add up to Why religion is a
thing and I don't know why the hostility
so
Richard Dawkins introduces the idea of
memes that there are things that will
travel across time because they're
um this is my interpretation of of the
point but they are simplified enough
that they can transmit very easily and
you get this thing that becomes a
self-replicating idea and anybody that's
been on the internet knows exactly what
a meme is at a gut level
religion takes the most important ideas
of many Universal some specific to the
time but then package it up in a meme so
that everything has an answer to well
why should I do that so for instance
don't eat pork why don't eat pork
probably because of is it trigonosis
yeah yeah so that's probably what they
were actually protecting against but if
you say Yahweh says don't eat pork sorry
can I interrupt you please uh I they
didn't know why it is and that's
precisely why it is placed on the broad
shoulders of some Divine edict exactly
and so so it's not that they knew that
there is a biological reason but decided
to a serp it and attribute it to God
it's precisely and the reason I forgive
me for having interrupted you in the
consuming Instinct I have a section
where I argue for exactly what you just
said but instead of the prohibition of
eating pork I use the eating of a
shellfish in in kosher laws and Jewish
right so here's what happens
uh you're walking around in the Middle
East you can't tell by looking at
something or smelling it or the water
that it came from whether it is infected
or not therefore there is no way for
there to be a statistical regularity for
me to be able to predict if it's this
color I die if it's that color I don't
die rather what happens is I consume it
and in many many cases I keep walking in
the desert and in a few cases I drop
that very quickly therefore since I
can't map a cause and effect mechanism
as to when that happens then the final
place that I lay it on are the broad
shoulders of God and so in that case
what I did is I offered a very clear and
very compelling biological explanation
of why that edict arose uh does that
make sense 100 yeah that that's what you
said far more eloquently than I could
exactly where I was headed is that when
you don't know what it is then you need
a way to transmit that idea that's
that's going to have meme qualities
exactly and the fastest thing is God
said that to do it right and so the
question becomes did that start in an
oral tradition or was there a guy that
was like man these just
will not stop eating shrimp right and so
they they're like I'm gonna have God say
probably not it's probably one of those
things where exactly it just slowly
Finds Its way in and it's passed on
passed on passed on but as it as it
Narrows down to God says don't eat
shellfish it just becomes very easy for
that now to propagate like wild and it
has an advantage because now people
aren't dying from whatever the problem
is exactly right and by the way
there there are very compelling and
sophisticated evolutionary explanations
for the existence of religion you want
to hear them please so there are two
competing schools of thought
so an adaptation an evolutionary theory
is something that evolves because it
confers either survival or reproductive
advantage to me so my gustatory
preferences preferring fatty foods is an
adaptation that Works through survival
mechanism right my having a large
peacock tail if I'm a peacock is
something that evolves because it
confers a mating Advantage compared to
the other male Shooters who have a
smaller uh peacock uh tail okay so
that's an adaptation so now one so the
argument would be well what
adaptive value does being religious
confer and so David Sloan Wilson who's
an evolutionary biologist who I've he's
been he's invited me several times to
his university he's come on my show uh
we we apparently are no longer friends
because I said some really mean things
about Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama and
he then wrote I hope that my good friend
and you know Wonderful evolutionary
psychologist got sad finds his Humanity
because I became
non-human because I dared criticize some
of his favorite politicians that's what
a parasitized mind looks like any case I
do respect his scientific work he saw it
he's a group selectionist which
basically means that he argues that some
traits could evolve at the group level
rather than at what Dawkins would say at
the gene level and so what he argued is
that groups that are religious
out survive groups that are not
religious through the mechanisms of
Greater cooperation communality cohesion
so they are very Earthly
biological reasons for why religiosity
would confer greater survival rates to
the religious than the non-religious so
that's that's explanation one yes I feel
like there's going to be a repeat
invitation of God's side on the show my
brother number three is already
guaranteed uh now here's the second one
this is a term that many of your viewers
would not have heard but it's a very
important term in evolutionary theory
it's called an exactation an exhaptation
is a trait that is a byproduct of
evolution it didn't evolve to be of that
form because it confers some adaptive
value if you like it's a path dependent
accidental byproducts for example the
color of our skeletal system does not
confer us any adaptive Advantage it's
just an engineering path dependent
outcome okay now the exactation argument
for religion is that religion
piggybacks as a byproduct on neuronal
systems that evolved for other purposes
so example human beings have evolved the
coalitional psychology mindset there is
blue team there is red team there is us
who are in the group of 150 and there's
the rest of the world who are all
so we very easily view the
world as US versus them it's an innate
part of the human Minds architecture
well what does religion do that's
certainly the abrahamic religions they
piggyback on that mechanism they are the
Jews and they are the Gentiles they are
the Believers in Islam and the kufar the
non-believer which is derogatory term
there are the ones who are going to be
accepted into the grace of Jesus Christ
and the rest of us who are
going to burn in Eternal damnation so
each of those religions puts the marker
of blue team red team in a different way
but they all do the blue team red team
so in that view
religion is if you like kind of a
parasitic thing that is piggybacking on
neural systems that exist for other
purposes so I'm not so if you want the
the classic people for each of these two
camps David Sloan Wilson would be the uh
adaptation guy
would be the exactation guy and both
have been on my show so for your viewers
who want to look at both of these guys
great work
and that's really interesting so the I
grow increasingly concerned in fact this
is how I got pulled sort of to the Far
Far edges of the culture War but is I
started looking around and realizing
whoa we're getting very divided and that
division does not go away by itself and
I I could just I can feel things sort of
ratcheting up
um and
that led me to okay what is it that's
allowing a fragmentation that we didn't
have before now part of it is what I'll
call algorithmically induced psychosis
so you're just the the algorithms
understand what you like and what
enrages you but above all what causes
you to interact and so that already
creates you don't even have to be
geographically connected and you can
find your red and blue teams
but maybe more importantly is the
breakdown of religion as one sort of
grand unifying narrative that tended to
play out geographically right so you
would get a religion it would become the
dominant religion of the area and I mean
you see as old as time it really ends up
becoming as we start getting into larger
and larger groups to your point about in
group out group it becomes one religion
versus another and when I mean for God
knows thousands of years that was how
things divided it was you were more
divided by religion than you were
geography yes so you could you know from
um you've all know a harari's
perspective this was a thing that
allowed us to come together in gigantic
groups yes and still cooperate flexibly
in a way that say ants can't they can
cooperate in huge numbers but not
flexibly but religion gave us a thing
I've never met you but we believe in the
same God we have the same in-group out
group exactly right yeah and so you put
together social media algorithms and the
death of that grand unifier and now
you've got a problem and I think that's
what Jordan is trying to get people to
see that and I think he really believes
that there's a lot of wisdom
contained in
um the the
ah the maps of meaning levels breakdown
of the stories themselves and I know you
guys talked in your most recent
interview
about like he threw out one example of
the name Eve means like one you contend
with something like that right so you
get you get a very deep if you knew that
word to mean that you would suddenly get
like a wink wink nah nod about what men
and women are to each other they are the
thing you want to contend with look uh
yesterday the gentleman who was praying
for me as I was leaving the car uh I
told him that you know I was very open
to uh the fact that religion contains
certain incredible wisdoms that have
been tested throughout time and
therefore I can be sympathetic to many
of its teachings which of course made
him very happy now what I didn't tell
him the next part is that also in I
don't know if it's in Deuteronomy or so
someone will correct me if I'm wrong but
take your insolent children to the gates
of the city and stone them to death oh
suddenly that becomes it's metaphorical
it's allegorical so you can't pick and
choose the buffet of what so uh items
one three seven and eight are beautiful
morality the other ones that are
completely insane and immoral will
forget him God was joking so that's why
I don't like the idea of of
fixating my entire moral compass on a
particular code I'd like to think that
we've evolved a moral compass that would
allow most of us unless we're
Psychopaths and cheats and murderers to
be able to understand what is you know
good or bad without necessarily having
as Richard and not Richard Christopher
Hitchens said a Celestial dictator to
whom I am you know trying I'm always
trying to please and placate
so that comes back to you then how do we
collectively kneel for the same reason
right so if we've got
um we used to be able to rely on
religion and I get why that was not
ideal yeah
um
but it seems like to your point about
neuronal structures we need something
yeah because when we don't have it we
hyper fragment deontological principles
that serve as organizing Frameworks for
understanding it will work though when
you say that you sound so smart that I'm
already terrified that like no for real
I I hate this even as I said it I wasn't
sure that that could work but I'd like
to think as a smiling Optimist that
there is a way out of the impasse that
doesn't necessarily require religion the
beauty of Truth the beauty of knowledge
the beauty of kindness quiet though how
do you make it contagious that in a
positive that might be above my pay
grade if I if I answer that one I win
the Nobel Prize that's fair and I will I
will pay for your flight uh because man
so this is this becoming one of the most
important questions I think it is like
what is going to be that replacement so
Jordan who I admire greatly
um has reverted back basically to
religion yeah and
um I we've all gotten to watch him do it
in real time yeah and it's very
interesting that you can demarcate his
personal life with the illness like that
I think is very meaningful but we need
something there has to be something
people need to be asking and answering
this question I really I really don't
have the answer I think you're probably
closer than I am but
we need something well build a family
uh have do meaningful things so one of
the things I talk about in the book I
say that there are two paths to
immortality that do not require belief
in the afterlife number one I literally
become immortal by
having children they share half my genes
they are vehicles of my immortality now
that that sounds kind of vulgar and
materialist right that I'm viewing my
children but they are that's why I would
jump in front of a bus and get killed to
save them right I mean that's the I come
from an evolutionary lens so that does
not sound weird to me at all well
exactly the second Way by which I can
become immortal is through mimetic
immortality to use the original term of
of Dawkins is by leaving things off that
other people will consume it could be
the gorgeous bridge that I created there
is a guy who created the golden that
built the golden great bridge and his
legacy is secured there is a guy who's
created this content that hopefully will
be watched in thousands of years from
now so there are ways by which I could
leave my signature forevermore without
couching it in in some Eternal narrative
so now I would love I I joke yesterday I
can't remember in what context someone
asked me something and I said oh well I
plan on never dying so I understand the
incredible existential angst that we all
feel that the party is really going to
finish soon we really are on a death
penalty situation we're all on death
penalty so I'd like to believe that the
party is going to go on in some other
realm and some other Wormhole but even
if I disassociate myself from this very
hopeful narrative I can be immortal my
children are my ticket
my books this conversation is my Pathway
to immortality that's why I say do
meaningful things in life right I argue
that anything that allows you to
instantiate your creative impulse is
well on your way for you to having
purpose and meaning whether I am a chef
or a stand-up comic or an author and
Professor or a podcaster each of these
Pursuits share one thing in common they
create something that wasn't there
before I came along and created it that
makes me Immortal so there are ways by
which I can seek eternal life without
believing in a Celestial dictator
now we just have to find a way to seek
that Eternal connection that makes us
draw people in closer not push them
farther away
it's interesting I'll say one more thing
on this and then we should probably uh
move on to the next fascinating topic
that I have lined up but
um
there has to be an in-group and an out
group because of the way that our brains
are wired
great if the out group are aliens uh yes
I've always said there'd be peace on
Earth when aliens attack us yep but they
would have to attack because clearly if
they're already visiting which I have
not looked at this so do I think
probably not but
um I agree a lot of people think they
have hasn't really changed anything so
yeah I don't know man there needs to be
some uh some way for us to
hear hear oh God let me give you a
really bad option it's really
terrible because we've already run this
experiment
but the really bad option that seems
like the last sort of stable thing was
whatever country you're in
be proud of it
try to do amazing things for the people
in your country be all inclusive all
those in your borders and then try to
exist in a connected framework with the
other countries that is cooperative but
if they
with you then I would expect an
aggressive response that I know is
terrible I'm just exploring an idea I
don't want anybody freaking out in fact
just hit me up with with the better idea
because I'm all for it
um but please anchor it in reality
right
so to that point when I we talked about
earlier the full positivity Guru he's
not anchored in reality that's what
upsets me love conquers all the problem
why people have cancer is because there
needs to be more love in those cells the
reason why the Middle East is a mess
because we need more love off
let me ask you a very Lex Friedman
question can you steal man his position
so that means I always forget the strong
man tell me pretty sure it's Brett
Weinstein so a steal a straw man is you
build a Cheesy version cheesy version a
steel man is like I'm really gonna put
myself in his position no assume that he
is well intentioned and build the best
case for his argument now you may still
see the Fatal flaw in it but that you
really attempt to say like this is where
I think he's coming from uh so this is
really speculative because you're
putting me on the spot come up with a
discover a new religion where the
fundamental Central tenet the universal
law of God of the one final true
religion is that under no circumstances
should you ever do anything other than
love every other human being if you were
to find that religion and if that
religion were to parasitize all human
beings then we would be able to
instantiate every one of the we
of Lex Friedman short of that I live in
the real world where things don't
operate according to that and it's not
going to happen
that's interesting that is thank you for
that that really helps me understand
what you hear when he talks
I'll give you my steel man argument so
we both agree that it is
when taken literally with what he says
it is naive
but my Steel Man of what I think he's
trying to convey is
Humanity has a massive amount of
suffering inherent to it
but humans can and will change their
behavior when they Center themselves
around love which is a very real
neurological state
and when somebody looks at their son and
sees my child
they treat them warmly and they want
good things for them and all of that
when a father looks at their son and
sees a threat to their legacy they will
ostracize them right and there are
countless stories about that Ultimate
Collision of Father and Son rather the
father kills the son or the son kills
the father succession yeah oh Jesus
Christ one of the most terrifying so
that those are both real states that
humans are capable of and if we can
nudge ourselves
towards the
I'm I'm gonna put love at the center of
my heart in this moment and my wife and
I say this to each other a lot
In This Moment fill your heart with love
for me and now reapproach this argument
and sometimes you can actually shift the
way you feel and it's going back to that
idea of perspectives all of a sudden I
stopped seeing my wife as somebody who
for whatever reason and this one was
trying to me up and then I shift
I'm like oh wow I'm just not seeing her
value system or whatever and so now all
of a sudden we can overcome that now
where he's being naive is he's not
he's not accounting for the fact that
doesn't scale right like I get
it yes it's it's wonderful but I don't
know that I want to talk him out of it
so he's not going to be the one to solve
that problem but he is going to be
somebody who will model that enough that
there will be some percentage of people
that go you know what Lex reminds me to
Center myself around love in this moment
and I'm going to do it so he has not
solved the grand problem and he comes
across very cheesy sometimes but I think
his heart's in the right place you know
I think that might explain why you
receive fewer death threats than I do I
think you might be right right because
you've taken the exact same stimulus in
this guy like in this case Lex and I've
taken
a less charitable position which by the
very nature of my taking this less
charitable position is going to create
more
you know negative response to that right
so the people who love likes will say
stop why are you hammering on him
actually some people were writing to me
saying you know he's just a young guy I
said he's almost 40.
Alexander the Great had conquered Asia
at 20.
when is it open for me to attack the 40
year old child
so but I think just your disposition and
not that I'm I'm hardly I'm a very
affable very kind-hearted guy but I do
have that Punchy quality for better or
worse you are able to flip that sphere
in a way where you come up with a very
charitable interpretation and maybe I
could learn from you how to better do
that well now let's make it even more
complicated I don't know that that would
be the most useful approach for a world
that ought not care about the individual
I I'm gonna have to Define all this I
don't want anybody clipping this
out of context
for a world that doesn't care about the
individual and the world does not the
world not people yeah the evolution time
A Better Way time does not care about
the individual wisdom does not care
about the individual so I don't know
that it would be
effective for this amorphous entity that
we will call wisdom to want for you to
be different than you are because you
offer a perspective that I find helpful
in that you will face challenges that I
they're too muddy the first time I
encounter them and you'll give a real
clear jab to the nose of that idea which
then gives me I'm starting my I wrote it
down last time by nomological uh my
nomological assessment of the situation
so you'll throw a jab and I'm like oh
that's an interesting perspective then I
look at somebody else's job and that's
an interesting perspective but if I
don't get the full range I'm not mapping
out the full reality of this thing and
so for me I can only give the take that
I actually feel in my heart and so
that's the one I feel but I think both
of us revealed more about ourselves and
we were revealed about Lex yes and so
what I hope is interesting for people is
now you have two more perspectives on
the issue and instead of needing to
adopt anyone's sort of all of us are too
narrow in our interpretation period so
maybe Lexus is easy to box up as it's
naive maybe mine is yeah he's always
trying to make everything empowering
whatever like we're all in an overly
simplified box right and it's it's in
being able to hear all of us that people
can form the most useful opinion and
this is why what upgrade didn't mean for
this to be the transition but this is
why I'm so freaked out about freedom of
speech you have to have it you have to
let everybody say what they think is
true even if you think some of them are
Psychopaths you've got to let
them speak because and everybody ends up
silencing can I demonstrate the most
extreme manifestation of what you just
said please I'm Jewish I grew up in the
Middle East escaped Lebanon because of
my being Jewish I support the right of
Holocaust deniers to spew their
there is nothing that you can say that
is more offensive than denying the
Holocaust okay there's almost nothing I
can't think of any it's a historical
reality that has been documented more
than one could ever imagine
it is the wholesale extermination at a
mass scale level Industrial Level other
people so what could be more offensive
and insulting than saying guess what it
never happened
but if you believe in freedom of speech
that's the price you have to pay there
has to be racists imbeciles
falsehood spreaders that exist it can't
be I believe in freedom of speech but
not if you make fun of French Canadian
accents that's simply too far you do not
criticize our accent death upon the Jew
May the Jew return to the Middle East
when we accepted him for 47 years in
Quebec that's insane but that really is
part of the architecture of the human
mind which is everyone finds their Red
Line you're you can say whatever you
want just don't draw my profit you can
say whatever you want but don't put I
don't know if you know the story with
Saddam Hussein apparently if if there
was a newspaper and his picture was on
the newspaper in the front cover and you
were sitting at a cafe and you took your
coffee mug drank from your coffee and
then put your coffee mug on his face
which would which would be an act of
insolence and disrespect then there
would be a secret police guy there that
would take you away and put you in a
bath of acid Jesus so everybody has some
justifiable reason why you can't do XYZ
for maximal flourishing and maximal
happiness of the greatest number of
people you have to adhere to the
mythological principle of freedom of
speech if your feelings get hurt
off no one cares grow a spine grow a
pair and move on be anti-fragile that
will make you happy in life
facts all right Freedom let's go deep
into this topic so at the beginning we
talked there's truth and freedom those
are absolutely key components of this
um how else does freedom play out I want
to start with a quote of yours yes uh
again oh this one's great uh so
people that are really paying attention
are going to realize you said twice that
there is only one path we'll let that
slide but this you said the only path to
true happiness is minimal government
inter minimal government intervention
into our lives and our bank accounts
now maybe set a little tongue-in-cheek
but I believe that so
um
tell how far do you take that
the Genesis of where that sentence came
from was uh at the top well at the time
but it now that you brought it up I can
trigger that same anger and indignation
at the fact that in
Quebec
I write a book based on my neuronal
firings it's not I bought this for a
dollar and I sold it for two and I'm not
denigrating Commerce but there's nothing
more personal than the
Financial rewards of your thoughts
that's why by the way in Ireland they
don't tax book royalties really yeah
yeah whoa yeah yeah yeah yeah and I
think also some art like Artistic
Endeavors wow okay that's really so so I
write a book
it sells really really well that's very
different than my professor salary which
I've become accustomed and habituated to
paying 50 plus percent of my income in
cashes but now let's but now I already
given you from my professor salary more
taxes than 99 of Canadians now I went
off here in a different big the country
of where the publisher is is in the
United States it's not even in your
territory I'm telling you about my
horrific story in the Lebanese Civil War
and I'm telling you about my normal
logical networks and I'm telling you
about my satire and my stories and my
words and my new raw firings you sit
with can I have to spend first as a prop
you sit in some magic government place
and go
that Jew he's so smart 58 of his
royalties come to me so I have 42
percent of my personhood that's mine 42
of my neuronal firings belong to me that
seems excessive right and and in 1917
was the first time that the Canadian
government levied income tax temporarily
106 years later we're still under the
town and what used what started it I
don't know what the original number was
for a few people five percent tax grows
to seven percent to 12 to 19 to 27 to 56
where does it end now let's put it
another way
here's a powerful way to look at it
slave from January 1st to December 31st
works for you you own him okay the
Canadian and Quebec government owned me
till August Jesus so from January to
August
I don't work for myself I'm not a free
individual including my thoughts
including my writings
starting in August I'm allowed to keep
my money that's not a healthy way to
live now of course it's always couched
under but it's for the greater good you
know these wealthy successful
people should pay their fair share well
okay what's my fair share what what's
the final number is it 90 is it 97 so
that's the Genesis of that line is that
you can't have individual dignity in a
socialist Utopia because as EO Wilson
said Tom when asked about socialism and
communism EO Wilson was a specialist on
social ants he studied he's an
entomologist who studied social ads
social ads are all equal with the
exception of the reproductive Queen so
when asked about socialism and communism
he said great idea wrong species
okay we're not social ants I did
something that you didn't do I worked
hard I made choices I deserve to make
more money than you you don't get big
boss saying well I'm going to
take your money to spread gender
ideology in Pakistan
but that's being taken from my royalties
book royalties Justin Trudeau gets to
spend 65 000 a day on some trip because
it's my royalties that are paying for
him that's not fair
okay so let's look at the common good
though because I imagine that you do
want to be in a place where people are
thriving you don't want to be in a place
where the masses are just riding in the
streets because I have nothing so how do
we get that balance right fixed fixed
fee for everyone in this Society I'd
even say fixed percentage so I think
that 25 flat fee is actually immoral
like when you and I go I I don't know
your exact financial situation but I
know that you're a lot wealthier than I
am when we go to a restaurant they don't
say oh Tom the burger is 14 God let me
see your income tax that is six bucks
Joe it's three dollars so if we don't
price discriminate there why is it that
for the privilege of living in an
orderly Society I pay hundreds of
thousands of dollars whereas I think
it's 40 or 50 percent of Canadians don't
pay income tax so it really is like this
Ponzi parasitic scheme where there is a
few people that we constantly go and say
come on give it up
because for the common good no because
I'm the sucker who's paying for common
goods so for example in Canada we have
free health care well it's free health
care other than the fact that I pay
hundreds of thousands of dollars for
that free health care it's free health
care for you it's not free health care
for me you see what I'm saying so there
is nothing
philosophically moral about such a
society so let's just decide what that
money is is it 10 000 per individual is
it five thousand is it thirty thousand
we pay it and then you f off
Okay so uh
what what is the barometer that you use
is it morality is it
um something other than morality so I
know how to approach the problem
so let's answer it the other way usually
the justification for why you should
have a punitive progressive taxation
Progressive means that as you make more
money you pay more and more exactly very
aware of it exactly so that argument
stems from exactly one of the things
that I talk about in the parasitic mind
which is the uh confusing of equality of
opportunities with equality of outcomes
so the Socialist Communist ethos
operates under the following premise if
there are individual differences in the
outcome between people there must be at
the root of that and Injustice
and us beneficient people
magnanimous people called the government
have to
fix that problem by redistributing that
money no the reason why I make more
money than you is because I may have
more Talent than you it's because I Elon
Musk did not steal his money he did not
rob people he did a certain set of
things that brought that money to him he
deserves it he already pays more taxes
than 99 of people combined right but
then someone will come along on TV and
say he should be taxed more it's not
fair that he makes this money so it's
not fair that if I write a book that
sells well I get to keep by the way I
calculated Tom just listen to this that
I would have to work an extra 15 years
as a professor
in order to make up the money that was
taken from my book royalties is that
fair wolf
what's fair about that well it's fair to
the person who hasn't worked for four
generations who thinks that the
Socialist welfare Nanny state is a
wonderful thing right but it isn't fair
to the people who support the Ponzi
scheme we're the ones who are getting
gang raped all day long financially and
so I stand by that line I think I was
too soft when I said that line okay
let's keep going so you benefit from the
society you I think want other people to
benefit from the society if they were to
adopt the tax strategy that you're
saying which is everybody just pays
whatever that set fee is obviously for
some people that could be 50 80 of their
uh their take home and if they lower the
taxes enough that it's a much much
smaller number so that it's you know not
an insane amount for anybody they won't
have enough to run the government
programs you go into austerity austerity
tends to lead to riots
um so I don't think that that premise is
true I mean I I can't definitively stay
but there have been studies that have
shown I mean I could be misquoting the
numbers but the generals the general
gist applies you can get rid of say 20
of federal employees as a first pass and
not a single quality of the deliverable
service would be noticeable right so the
bloat exists because you are not
accountable to that governmental excess
right think of it another way if you Tom
make a certain set of decisions that
result in you becoming financially
destitute you have to file bankruptcy
and there are real consequences to each
of us at the automata atomized level
having had poor financial discipline if
the government does it there are no
consequences right so you just print
more money so inflation goes up but I
win maybe the next election so there has
to be I don't usually like to talk in
these kind of grand ways but there has
to be a rethinking of this whole system
because look here's what's going to
happen if I can
I would desperately want to leave Quebec
is that a net benefit for Quebec well it
might be for those who hate the fact
that I made fun of the French Canadian
accent but if God leaves and Joel leaves
and John The Brain Drain is that a net
benefit for the society well probably
not so why don't you be a bit more fair
why don't you have not succumb to the
psychology of envy and resentment by the
way when I post something about how much
I hate how I've been financially raped
by the Quebec and Canadian government
someone would will usually come on the
Twitter feed and say you're such an
entitled Rich why can't you pay
more so imagine the psychology of such a
person who does who finds that me paying
58 of my income is by the way it's not
58 that's just the income if you add up
all the taxes now you might say what are
the other taxes we also have provincial
sales tax and federal sales tax and that
is 15 of what I spend so when I've
already paid you 58 the 42 that's left
to me if I now go out and spend you take
15 of that but now let's do property tax
let's do carbon tax let's do school tax
I'm probably left with about 30 cents to
the dollar that's fair
that seems a bit excessive
yeah so obviously very complicated
problem
um I look at the Ginny coefficient yes
which says inequality yeah so the wider
the gap of inequality the more likely
you are to have violence in your society
and so this is one of those going back
to what you and I were saying you've got
to be anchored in reality you want to
look at things to an evolutionary lens
so I know we have to do something I know
that you it is
the least selfish thing that you could
do is to just let people suffer and so
my thing becomes I don't mind paying
taxes what I mind is not getting good
results for my taxes indeed and so when
you were talking about
um you know in a business if you're not
running the business while the business
goes out of business that's just that
like nobody gives a done uh whereas
when the government spends money they
don't set a goal and say okay this is
this is what profitability looks like or
whatever
um
because not everything they're going to
do is going to generate money so it's
okay what's the social good and how are
we going to measure it and every sin you
can possibly imagine is hidden by being
vague about those two things and so
um that's where it scares me but I this
is an area where I feel like a lot of
really smart people have looked at this
and
and uh the big debt cycle that
um Ray dalio talks about
is terrifying and brutal and yet is the
bestest and when you look back over I
forget how many years he went back
through but it something like 2000 and
then he really looked closely at the
last 500 years and there is a hyper
predictable
um
six stages of things that happen and it
it has all to do with basically a war a
new world order is established Good
Times happen in the beginning then you
get fat and lazy and then the bad time
set in you do everything through debt
debt accumulates massively anybody
paying attention is happening right now
in the U.S and then things get so bad
the Ginny coefficient becomes so wide
there's so much disparity between the
Haves and have-nots that there's either
a revolution or a war and it oftentimes
a war if there's a rising power on the
outside hey like China and now all of a
sudden there's a hot War which forces a
switch in the New World Order all the
debt is sort of re
um configured as you come out of that
and the whole cycle starts over again
and it usually lasts something like 150
to 200 years something like that these
cycles and it's terrifying and it's
brutal if you're in that sort of final
moment and just to give people heart
palpitations Ray dalio puts us at stage
five and a half somewhere in there yep
and he the last time I asked him which
admittedly was four or five months ago
but he pegged the odds of U.S Civil War
at 40 percent
within what period uh five years yikes
yeah so that seems a bit pessimistic
that is the person who has made the most
money off of being right in the history
of the United States telling you who's
this Ray dalio so he's built the largest
hedge fund in the world so a hedge fund
is somebody going where's the right bet
not just in the U.S but around the world
so literally there's nobody that has a
better proven track record of looking at
the actual state of the world making
predictions putting his money where his
mouth is and reaping the rewards of it
over a like 35 40 year career so this
guy he may still be wrong and he'll be
the first to tell you that hey my
ultimate thing is diversification
because I know not to trust myself right
like that's Ray dalio's whole thing but
he also it's not like he just bets
blindly doesn't diversify blindly he he
really he says nobody spends more money
than me researching history at looking
at how do these Cycles work I I could be
misquoting but these numbers will be
directionally correct have you had them
on your show multiple times that he has
spent something like a hundred million
dollars studying history to figure out
how these Loops occur
so anyway for him to be like meh you
need to be paying attention you need to
be thinking about this so I I bring all
of this up in the context of freedom I
think freedom is incredibly important
but the so impact theory has gone
through three phases phase one was
really about headlines it was a it was a
really simplified version it was me
Having learned what I needed to do to my
mind and understanding frame of
reference that if I could help other
people build their frame of reference
their life would be much better but it
was not in the the gross reality of Life
the mess it was the hyper
oversimplification phase two is me
trying to broaden that out phase three
is just like the full reality of the
complexities of life so I don't want to
talk about Freedom unless we really talk
about like what this is about so okay
that's all the sort of taxes government
hey you better understand debt all that
but now give me like what is the price
of personal freedom what does it demand
of each of us and why did you mention in
a book about happy yeah so I'll talk
about for example temporal freedom on
your in your job so remember earlier I
said that one of the best ways that you
can ensure occupational happiness is to
pick a profession that allows you to
instantiate your creativity impulse
right being a chef being a podcaster
being a stand-up comic being an author
you're creating the second element for
having occupational happiness is if you
have complete temporal freedom in your
job so example uh someone who is in a
union Factory job where it is mandated
at which times you're allowed to take
your bathroom break you you don't have
the human dignity to decide when I can
walk off the job because I really need
to go to the bathroom that's how much
it's dictated on the other hand take the
Other Extreme where I think I'm filled
with gratitude and and uh as a sense of
understanding how how lucky I am that I
have pretty much the highest level of
temporal Freedom which means what I
still will work incredibly hard probably
harder than most people but I never feel
I never feel like I'm working or I'm
constrained because I'm deciding what to
do I'm the ultimate in French we say
right or flannel you you float right so
now here I go to do impact Theory later
maybe I'll go sit at the beach now in
Newport Beach then I might work to late
tonight preparing the book perspectives
of my next book and then I might wake up
tomorrow and do so because I feel like
I'm completely in control of not only
the things that I work on but at which
time I work on them and for how long I
work on him then I never feel
existentially constrained I am a free
person right and so I think that if you
can crack those two things in whatever
profession you choose creativity impulse
temporal Freedom you're well on your way
to being happy now I will explain the
importance of freedom in another perhaps
more banal way
I used to be a very competitive soccer
player and I played What's called the
number 10 position even though I didn't
wear number 10. the number 10 position
is usually the player who's the
playmaker Striker or Midfield no
Midfield usually he's the guy who's just
David Beckham David Beckham played more
of a right-sided midfielder usually the
playmaker starts off in the middle of
the field and then starts moving around
to try to exploit spaces now why am I
mentioning all this because my biggest
strengths were two of them number one I
was a very skillful player I was called
a technical player I have great skills
and number two I have Vision in other
words I can look for those spaces to
exploit when I would have a coach tell
me today you're playing on the left side
of Midfield and you have to track back
Tom
my brain would explode not because I'm a
Diva who doesn't like to be told what to
do it's because you've removed my
ability to float around that's what I
did best right and so I used that
example because I I want to demonstrate
that the concept of Freedom can apply in
a choosing a job in the grand sense of
when we say freedom of speech and
freedom of Consciousness but also in the
context of freedom to move around on the
soccer field and so freedom is
everything man it allows me to
go through my day unencumbered by
schedules it allows me to uh play in a
field without being told where I need to
go and so on so it's freedom is the
whole enchilada why do you think that
matters so much to me to not abstract it
out of yourself because it if we're
trying to give people the ultimate map
to happiness why does that matter why
should they work so hard to make sure
that they're able to have the time
Freedom or autonomy or because it's
ultimately personal agency right it's
it's me at every micro second deciding
what my next segment will be my wife
often jokes with me when she sees me
stress she goes but why you stressed
I'll say because I have three meetings
this week she goes that's it that's
what's stressing you well because I know
that these I have a departmental meeting
from 10 to 12 30 and then I have to go
teach from one to three and then I have
to meet these therefore I can't
instantiate my freedom I ha so I always
joke that one of the worst possible jobs
that I could imagine I hope I don't get
death threats from flight attendants I
will is flight attendants or Pilots why
because the minute that they get into
the plane and the door closes I'm not
talking about fear of crashing I'm I'm
afraid of fear of freedom of lack of
freedom I know that for the next six
hours you're going from New York to
Lisbon and there is nothing that you can
do to extricate yourself from that
reality that drives me insane I can't
handle it so I think It ultimately boils
down to just personal dignity and
personal agency
it's interesting do you think that one's
Universal I mean I do think that it's
Universal I think the problem and hence
why people don't end up being happy is
that first of all they don't know
themselves enough to to
stated in the way that I just did and
oftentimes they can't
either for Life circumstances or
pragmatic realities I I need to put food
on the table and I need to be a bus
driver because it it has good benefits
and and I'm a union man therefore I
can't pursue what God Said is telling me
which is pursue my creative impulse and
so that makes people unhappy because
deep down inside I think it is a
universal Quest but pragmatic realities
don't allow me to instantiate that Quest
and therefore I wake up at 75 and say my
life has sucked I never wanted to be an
accountant but my dad told me to be an
accountant because it was a good job and
secure job to have but I wanted to be an
artist
that that one's really interesting for
me so this is where I think know thyself
as you just said is really important so
here's how I think people should think
through do I be an entrepreneur and
obviously I'm coming at it from a
slightly different lens than you do I
become an entrepreneur or do I become an
employee
um I have I have a almost pathological
need to control my life and I have a
real problem with authority being told
what to do like you when I see a bunch
of meetings on my schedule oh my God
like I literally go nuts
um
but I have a gigantic risk tolerance so
when everybody else gets to go home on
the weekend
and they know my paycheck is coming I
don't so I have to worry about making
sure your paycheck is coming
um I have to take responsibility if your
paycheck isn't coming right so it all
falls on me I have to think through all
that stuff it's going to be my name on
the lawsuit like it's just there's a
real weight to deciding you're going to
run your own company and that isn't for
everybody and I I have seen whenever I
say this I I picture the poem howl by
Alan Ginsberg I've seen the greatest
minds of my generation laid waste by
well I forget the exact line but I've
seen the greatest Minds in my generation
laid waste by trying to be an
entrepreneur and realizing oh my God
this sucks right I actually make way
less money than I was making and it's so
much stress so it's like
um God what is it I think it was acting
like if you can imagine yourself doing
anything other than acting go do that
because like acting is just reject
same with entrepreneurship if you can
imagine yourself doing anything else go
do it because entrepreneurship's just
failure it's failure and stress and I
don't know if you remember uh in the in
the book I have a whole chapter on
persistence and the anti-fragility of
failure and there what I talk about is
that very few if any meaningful Pursuits
in life are not going to be littered
with endless rejections and prospective
failures and I try to identify the most
extreme examples of that so I look for I
looked for the greatest of all time in
different fields so Lionel Messi the
greatest soccer player of all time and
anyone who says otherwise is in the
front to human dignity uh Lionel Messi
was told that he would never be a
professional soccer player because he
was too small and slight bro he's tiny
how the did he pull it off he
really is amazing yeah oh thank you I'm
thinking thank you I love it he's like
my son uh okay number two uh Michael
Jordan uh cut from his sophomore high
school team JK Rowling
rejected by every publisher until the
last one Steven Spielberg rejected by
USC School three times and so imagine if
each of these folks had decided at some
point on the trajectory of no no no you
suck said yeah I guess I probably suck
and we would have never known Messi and
Jordan and Spielberg and Rowling and so
on uh so that's part of life when when I
send the paper to an academic journal to
publish certainly if it's a top Journal
you're talking about rejection rates and
the Order of 90 to 95 now this is this
is a paper that from the moment that you
first thought about the idea of running
those studies to applying and getting
the granting money to running the study
to analyzing this data to writing up the
paper to sending it you're talking
probably a two to four year cycle and
that process has a 90 failure rate and
yet scientists still exist so a large
part of being a success successful
scientist is just being dogged that
you're going to just so it fails at this
journal you send it by the way when it
when it's not rejected at that journal
it still has to go through two three
rounds of revisions so I probably will
have spent four five six years battling
in getting that paper through the
pipeline before you get to see it and
read it and so Academia is nothing but
doggedness uh and of course all the
other things creativity and but it but
persistence is a fundamental part of the
thing so you can't do anything
meaningful if you're not dogged and
anti-fragile to failure
okay so we talked earlier about one of
the ways you become anti-fragile which
is to want your ideas to be challenged
but how do you build that resilience you
you make decisions throughout your life
with that mindset so let me give a
concrete example when I I knew that I
was good in two things and I was
interested in doing two things I want to
be a professional soccer player and I
want to be a professor from a very young
age when I when my soccer career was
dead because of some injuries and other
circumstances as a late teenager uh and
now I was heading off to do my undergrad
so I knew that I would be living a lot
an academic cerebral life for the rest
of my life I thought what is the field
that I should study for my undergrad
that would be the most complex that
would train me in the same way that you
go to a CrossFit gym even if you're a
soccer player and you do abs well the
ABS is you're not going to play soccer
with your abs but you need everything to
be fit right well I want I knew that I
would live a life of ideas how can I
train this mind to be the most rigorous
analytical machine well guess what study
pure mathematics and so I went and did
an undergrad in mathematics and computer
science not because I thought that I was
good in it but I didn't I I knew for
sure that I would be unlikely to become
a professor in mathematics but that
would be the thing that would serve as
the greater greatest stressor the the
path of this most find the things that
are going to be difficult useful right
the difficult Hercules there's a famous
story of the Byford education you can go
this way or you could go that way that
way is easier and you'll get all the hot
girls and the one the wine and so on or
take the the path of most resistance
well take that road and so I think that
might know the story of Hercules well I
think so I think that's the one I hope
I'm not sure I think I'm not I think it
works conceptually even if it's It Isn't
So I just want to follow that so what
what is the moral so he's just take the
path of greatest resistance in order to
be able to have the most fulfilling and
meaningful life so this specific Greek
goddesses that met him or whatever I
don't remember who they were sure but
that's the bifurcation I'm gonna project
something tell me if this is in line
with what you're saying so uh I think a
lot about what I'm trying to convey to
people like that I feel like I have a
thing inside me that I'm trying to give
to people and that um my reason I put on
this Earth I hate that
phraseology but sure uh is that you can
control your life that the The Game of
Life oh you're gonna hate this because
you like soccer
the beautiful game is life it's not
soccer
how dare you sir right I'm in front uh
exactly uh and you need to learn how to
play it well yeah and the way that you
learn how to play it well is to learn
whatever it is you need to learn in
order to not be controlled by anything
other than yourself that to me is
freedom and when you started talking
about and again I know you're not sure
if this is the actual story about
um Hercules being given two paths one
where he can get probably the things he
thinks he wants quite easily or you can
take the hardest hell path
now I've tried to boil down what I think
life is
a weird way to say it but close enough
and what I think life is is a quest to
feel good about yourself when you're by
yourself
and that going back to the thing I said
earlier
Evolution has guaranteed that you won't
be proud of yourself unless it was hard
as hell I like it listen I'm often asked
why do you take such thorny issues I
mean you already lead the stressful Life
as a you know a productive Professor why
do you have to jump and put your hat
into all kinds of battles and my answer
that speaks exactly to your point about
you know you have to feel comfortable
and proud within yourself is it's
exactly that so I I usually use the
following uh imagery when I go to bed at
night and I put my head on the pillow
the only thing that can uh
for stall insomnia in order for me to
sleep well at night is if I felt that I
never modulated my speech
my my positions for some pragmatic
careerist thing right don't say that
even though it's the truth because then
that would reduce the likelihood of you
getting that professorship or that job
right if I do that then I feel I'm
fraudulent then I feel I'm fake I'm
inauthentic I'm a fraud and the most
important thing for me is to always
match my punishing code of personal
conduct not yours I don't care what you
think of me I care what I think of me to
your point and what I think of me is a
really high perfectionist standard that
I have to adhere to and therefore that's
why I act the way that I do and here I
want to mention a arguably the most
profound thing that anyone ever told me
and in this case it happens to be my
mother many years ago she looked at me
and she said you know God
the world doesn't operate according to
your Purity bubble and the quicker that
you find that out the happier you'll be
well guess what till today I often
struggle with that because there is a
clash between this this beautiful
stylized Purity bubble that I'd like to
live in and the ugliness of the outside
world and so oftentimes when I'm
indignant at somebody on social media
it's because I can't believe that you
could be such an right whereas
if I were more steeped in pragmatic
reality I would say well these kinds of
folks exist and who cares but it's my my
strain of Purity which drives my
punishing personal code of conduct that
causes me to react that way so I'm
totally with you um
that's really interesting yeah I think
each of us have some animating spirit
that uh gives us super powers my wife
has a gear I almost don't have which is
righteous indignation
and I've always watched her click into
that gear and I see how like if you've
ever seen
um a honey badger in fact oh my God my
wife is a honey badger so when you see a
honey badger attack things that are way
bigger than it you're just like it's
there's something impressive about it
that makes even the bigger thing be like
whoa yeah like it's just so there's so
much aggression so much certainty that
that alone gives you pause and
every time I see her do it I'm like that
state of mind is a superpower because it
it eliminates anxiety it eliminates fear
she cannot help herself but charge
forward and so it's clearly even though
it is very rare that I'll find myself in
that gear
it's very rare it's very clear that
there's a huge evolutionary advantage
you can't be wrong too many times but it
it is one of those things like there's a
reason that there's a spectrum of
personalities when you look at it again
from the group selection standpoint
absolutely and by the way uh to the
point of indignation you mentioned
righteous Indonesia of your wife so I in
preparing uh the research and for
writing the the happiness book of course
I still I I got into all of the ancient
wisdoms and stoic philosophy and so on
and I had uh recently a guest on my show
Donald Robertson who wrote the book how
to think like a Roman Emperor which is a
book on Marcus it really is really
really cool book very beautiful read and
at one point I saw some stoic edicts
that in my view were contrary to basic
evolutionary principles so let me
mention it so the stoics will say that
it oftentimes what causes you pain is
not the event itself but the way you
respond to it to the event right so for
example if someone deframes you on
Twitter or in in life and insults you
well who cares about that event why
don't you rise above it as a stoic and
realize that if you go like this then it
goes away that can't make sense in every
situation because you and I have evolved
the emotional system that causes us to
be indignant if for example you engage
in reputational damage right and it's
precisely the fact that you're worried
that if you say something that is very
insulting that I might beat the out
of you that stops you from doing that if
we remove that from the playing field if
under no circumstances will I ever be
righteously indignant at something
ridiculous that you've said about me
then there's a lot of miscreants that
will game that right because they know
that Tom is a full stoic and he will
never respond irrespective of what I
write about him so even in the context
of the breathtaking wisdom of the stoics
I think some of their tenants are
irrational from an evolutionary
perspective that's interesting and I
think that the evolutionary lens is
pretty profound it goes back to the
thing about religion that I find
interesting which is
religion is trying to present in a
simple way that can be handed off
those things that are most likely to be
high functioning for you at the time
that it was written obviously over time
it will change which is why I actually
think that religion does need to ignore
some things and embrace others but
evolution
does the same thing when you look at
like we were talking off camera about
something I'd never heard of which is an
evolutionary uh literary criticism
exactly like at looking at base how well
did this story get to The Human
Condition right
um that to me is very wise because now
going back to one of the one of the core
beliefs that makes up my frame of
reference is that we have these
biological algorithms running in our
brain that the brain is designed to be a
prediction engine and that the when you
don't know what the truth is the easiest
way to assess it is to say uh my current
belief system makes the following
prediction
so I'm gonna if I do this I will get
this result so I will do that thing did
I get that result if yes then I must be
pretty close to ground truth if no I'm
off somewhere something is broken in the
beliefs that make up my prediction
engine and so that's where
um if people can really take a framework
around Evolution I think that they can
very quickly get to something where'd be
like oh this makes sense to test because
looking back I can at least from a
informed hypothesis standpoint I can
come up with a reason why this might be
true yeah absolutely and thank you for
your defense of the value of evolution
psychology because one of the things
that I get righteously indignant about
is when some imbecile on social media
says but evolution of psychology is just
a bunch of unfalsifiable just so
storytelling and nothing could be
further from the truth and here I'm
going to demonstrate that by pointing to
our earlier conversation about
numerological networks of cumulative
evidence it is it is within the
epistemology of evolutionary psychology
to look for all of those distinct lines
of evidence before you make the
proclamation that something is an
adaptation in other words the standard
of evidence that you you have to reach
before you make that pronouncement is
actually unbelievably higher than fall
for all of the other scientific claims
that are made out there so it's actually
the exact opposite of what the idiot is
accusing me of he's thinking I'm sitting
with a cognac a cigar and I'm going
let me make up some story about
why men like women to be of that body
type it's just I'm just it's just some
fanciful story whereas I can get you
data from across cultures from across
time periods from across art Traditions
that demonstrate that that body type is
preferred for very clear evolutionary
reasons so uh so I'm with your wife here
there are very clear justifiable reasons
why you should be at times honey badger
indignant no I I get it and I think it
works going back to it also has a price
to pay I will say that yeah my cortisol
levels go up yeah the the number of
times that I have to go to my wife and
say the question you need to ask right
now is what are you trying to accomplish
right because if what you're trying to
accomplish is
um ideologically smashing that person in
the teeth not physically obviously but
like you want that sort of they must
understand that they're wrong cool keep
going
if on the other hand you have some other
outcome you or you're trying to get a
deal done or whatever
I suffer from not seeing that at times
yeah and there is a conflict that I get
from your perspective where it's like
you don't want to cross the line and not
be authentic yeah and so I in fact the
my pitch to you about
um you're not as big as you should be
given how good your ideas are and so now
the question becomes why aren't you as
big now you just so happen to I can just
project all of my own
um realizations about myself onto you so
this will be fun uh
the reason that you're not as big as you
should be for how good your ideas are is
because you you have emotional friction
around picking a lane
so if you're going to be broad what you
have to do is give you have to tell
people what the connective tissue is
and once you give them the connective
tissue and they can be like okay cool
here are the ideas we're going to hang
our hat on then it's like oh cool thank
you you've given me a way to group you
you've told me you're you're in a new
Lane fine but you have to tell me what
that lane is that's that's deep man
thank you that's for sure trust me this
is me beating the out of myself
that's beautiful really so once you do
that one it will clarify your own
thoughts because there are going to be
guests that you shouldn't have on even
though you're interested in is
fascinating at some point like that one
probably exists outside of the thing you
really care about at least in the
grander scheme
um I think that kind of thing is
important so you you my point is you
want to be authentic a hundred percent
but you also want to be strategic you
don't just want to say like everything
that crosses your mind it's like what's
my goal in this situation how do I align
myself and so you know when I look at
the Canadian accent thing whatever it's
like I actually kind of get that one
like part of who you are clear early as
a person is to be playful to be funny
and I heard Jamie Foxx talk about this
and it was really heartbreaking for me
because he's he's of an earlier
generation where he got famous walking
the line of things you're not supposed
to say and and that made him him and
that was the fun and that's why we loved
him and and people may not even remember
him from that era back in like In Living
Color and stuff or he was
outrageous and
he what he said was uh in this cancel
culture era you have to tuck it in a bit
yeah and I knew exactly what he meant he
had to dial himself down he did not go
for the joke that might risk spilling
over the line because you're not
forgiven for that anymore it's not like
oh you're a comedian and to Europe isn't
that tragic though it is literally
tragic because I think Humanity loses
something because now you're asking the
messies of the world don't get quite
that good exactly right like messy in
his prime it didn't look human yeah and
it inspired me so much to think wait I
could get that good at something I mean
I'm not going to get that good of soccer
getting my genetics but like could there
be a thing I could get that good at it's
just super inspiring and just
entertaining let's say it doesn't
inspire me to want to do it I still get
to witness it yeah and so the thought of
comedians tucking it in is
heartbreaking to me me so I get why that
might be a bright line for you that like
I'm yeah Over My Dead Body like no one
is going to make me Backtrack on that
because I'm not going to tuck it in
because that's something to me that when
you carry it out it's really problematic
well you're really
identifying my psychology that's
beautiful man that's brilliant thank you
I might have to start calling you Dr Tom
wow I'll take an honorary doctor
interview uh yeah I just think that that
that is
um really important for people to
understand what is my bigger strategy
here what am I trying to get out I'm not
going to cross the line of being
authentic but I'm not going to treat
everything like it's the fight no I amen
I got it I get it yeah well I mean I
don't I don't know what to add to that
other than I'm actually truly I'm not
blowing smoke up your proverbial behind
I'm Amazed by the psychological Acuity
that you just exhibited oh thank you man
I I don't think you could have been
successful in life in the way you have
if you didn't have those insights and
this is why by the way I uh I'm not an
academic elitist in other words when we
talked earlier for example about Dave
Chappelle and I said to you remember I
said Dave Chappelle is probably more
intelligent than most of my colleagues
he doesn't have all of our fancy degrees
uh so there are many many ways by which
one can exhibit
their profundity and you certainly have
done so in this last analysis yeah very
kind thank you for your book it's
absolutely incredible where can people
follow you get the book so uh they can
go to my website
www.gad
gadsaid.com and then there you can
access my YouTube channel my Twitter
feed my podcast if you want to get a
copy of the book you can either order it
straight from the publisher regenery or
from Amazon the sad Saad truth about
happiness eight secrets for leading the
good life and they are fantastic thank
you so much alright everybody definitely
ordered that book and speaking of things
you should do if you haven't already be
sure to subscribe and until next time my
friends be legendary take care peace
to learn more about artificial
intelligence check out this episode with
Mo Gadot we've never created a nuclear
weapon that can create nuclear weapons
the artificial intelligences that we're
building are capable of creating other
artificial intelligences as a matter of
fact they're encouraged to create other
in artificial intelligences