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happiness is a trap and most people
waste their entire lives chasing it as
today's guest says happiness is a
direction not a destination and the real
destination you should be chasing is far
more interesting and potent than mere
happiness so join me today with Arthur
Brooks as we explore the joys of an
honorable life lived in pursuit of
pleasure power and success instead
why is it a trap to think that you can
be happy because happiness is not a
destination happiness is a direction
happiness is the idea that you can be
Blissful and happy all the time is it's
not just unrealistic it's unhealthy it
would be terrible if you were happy all
the time you'd be eaten by a tiger
immediately you would be you'd be you'd
have no
negative feelings which keep you alive I
mean the idea of you know the limbic
system of your brain that's producing
sadness and anger and disgust and fear
these are the the emotions that have
kept you alive I mean your pleistocene
ancestors would have been eaten by an
animal immediately you'd be run over by
a car you need these things that
actually make you at least temporarily
unhappy or you can't put one foot in
front of the other therefore happiness
is the wrong goal the right goal is
happier
so that's really what we're trying to do
and to get happier is a process all
throughout your life and to be on the
path toward what Oprah Winfrey calls
happierness
you you actually need a system that
makes it possible and so that you can
pursue it and you need to pursue it's
reason people need to watch impact
Theory by the way is because this is a
Pursuit of Happiness show this is all
about Pursuit this is all about
achievement it's about trying it's about
making your life better it's about it's
about progress this is one of the most
important points of human flourishing
this is about progress you know if
people often ask why is it so relatively
easy to lose weight been impossible to
keep it off it's because when the scale
goes down each day it gives you this
incredible reward but when you hit your
goal the reward is never eating anything
you like ever again for the rest of your
life
everything in life is progress and
that's why the pursuit matters so that
you can actually be on the trail toward
happierness and that's the right goal
for all of us it's really interesting I
like that a lot I think a lot about the
traps so when I think about what impact
theory is and what I'm trying to make it
it started out pretty simplistic so
we're in phase three of impact Theory at
this point because it it's really me
trying to figure out okay how do you get
out of the spiritual entertainment and
into the real thing that people need to
actually do and understand in order to
make progress in order to be happier in
order to be more fulfilled is how I
think about it
um but the way that people get trapped
is very counter-intuitive to me and
you're the only person that I've ever
heard bring it up
I don't know if you consider the the
central thesis but you've talked about
how people get stuck in their
perceptions yeah and that to me is very
interesting and there's really I think
two ways that people get stuck by their
perceptions one is they confuse them
with objective reality so they just
think oh the thing I believe is true
right and so if you don't believe it you
just don't see the truth and then the
other way that people get trapped by
perception is they identify themselves
with it and so they love that they are
on the left or the right and so you end
up with this vicious cycle of I'm proud
that I have recognized the truth and I
feel good about myself for noticing how
wrong you are yeah and so we end up in a
pretty gnarly situation where they're
not actually happy that's the freaky
thing so how do people begin to unwind
that well so there's a lot there's a lot
in what I mean I agree with everything
you said but there's so much in what you
said too that that helps us understand
the the bad situation or the conundrum
our country is in the world is in it has
everything to do with our inability to
to to stop seeing ourselves in terms of
the things that we think
this is a classic kind of attachment so
Buddhists talk about this a lot so tick
not Han the great Vietnamese Buddhist
monk who you know one of the one of the
most important uh Buddhist teachers of
the last 50 years died just a couple
years ago and he used to talk about the
worst kind of attachments that we have
in Modern Life is the attachment to our
views the attachments to what we think
that's just as bad as being attached to
your watch your car your television to
say you know like I love my I love my
car I mean what's wrong with you you'll
love your car it's a thing you shouldn't
you you only use things and you only
love people and that's an iron law of
happiness but the thing is all that we
we do a version of this ideologically
where we say that we we we're so
identified with the things that we think
that it becomes an attachment that it
becomes almost a love attachment in our
lives now that's really alienating
that's incredibly alienating because you
are not your views and I am not mine and
and that's incredibly important for us
to be able to learn for this Pursuit of
Happiness for progress in and of itself
is to not be the things that we we think
and to recognize that we think many
things that are wrong we just don't know
which they are the reason people watch
this show and listen to this show is
because they want to learn more so they
can update their views which is an
acknowledgment that their views weren't
perfect to begin with that their
knowledge wasn't perfect to begin with
now when you're being taught by a a you
know baby boomer culture Warriors that
are trying to conscript child soldiers
into their culture War they will say if
you don't think these things something
is morally defective about you and you
will have the perfect truth you will
have the the secret Gnostic truths if
you do believe these things and at that
point our beliefs including political
beliefs have just become a religion
there's just because not cult and and
that's really what we see and so people
are inducted into these competing Cults
all the time and you know it's like I
have a traditional religion and I
identify with my religion
but I don't know if I'm right even on
that I don't know the things that I
either that are right and that's been
incredibly freeing for me and that's
ultimately what we all have to
acknowledge I think these things
but I'm willing to be corrected if I get
better information and the only way I'm
going to do that is to go to people who
disagree with me people who think
differently than me people who threaten
my preconceived notions and and to take
it in and say you disagree with me Tom
come sit next to me yeah I gotta hear it
why is that freeing why is it freeing to
acknowledge that you almost certainly
are wrong and to invite people to
challenge those ideas for most people
that that's like arresting yeah well
that's a hard thing to do because that
actually goes against that that
contravenes Evolution evolution is tells
us that we need to believe particular
things and to defend them and the ego
threats are actually dangerous to us
because if you know if we're if we show
ourselves to be wrong to others then
that makes us look incompetent then
we're less likely to survive we're less
likely to thrive in a community we're
less likely to rise in a hierarchy we're
less likely to find mates and so the
result is that you defend defend defend
defend but we don't have to do that
that's hugely maladapted in modern life
particularly with modern technology I
mean think of the technology that we're
using right now to record this show and
that people are using to watch us right
now that's an updating learning
technology and if you're stuck in the
static the stasis of of here's this body
of information that I have and it must
all be right you've basically said that
you can't grow and learn so you have to
relax that evolutionary imperative you
have to fight back against what Mother
Nature is putting into you that's and
you know this is the way the
philosophers Allah always talk about
sort of the animal path and the Divine
path the animal path is going according
to your evolutionary imperatives these
are the things that I've it's like if it
feels good do it the best way to ruin
your life the Divine path is to stand up
to the things that feel unnatural you
know we do this all the time I mean you
and I work out every day right and and
that's a it's the the Nature's Path is
sit on the couch
right Nature's Path is eat that sweet
thing right and and the Divine path is
to do things that are hard that don't
feel natural because you know you're
you're you've been given a prefrontal
cortex where you can make conscious
decisions that are better than what what
your feelings tell you that they should
be so mother nature says defend your
opinions at all costs because if you
don't it's an ego threat and they could
have you know could have catastrophic
consequences for your position in the
hierarchy but you know that if you don't
defend your positions if you admit to
the possibility that you're not right
that you'll learn and you update when
people say things that you think are
crazy you say tell me more that you're
actually going to get better and that's
a conscious decision yeah so one the
fact that it's a conscious decision I
think is really important for people
something you talk about in the book
that uh when people have Collision of
values they can really run into a
problem one of the things going back to
the question I was asking one of the
things that I think think really causes
problems for people is they have a value
system they've never articulated it to
themselves they've never documented it
written it down so they know these are
my actual values and then they don't
realize that those were choices again
they're mistaking them for this is how
the world ought to be
and when they collide with other people
they just assume you don't recognize the
way the world ought to be you are bad
you're a whatever and now you get
these conflicts and you said in the book
that uh families break up because you
didn't say Collision of values but
that's how I read it to mean and people
expect it to be something else I forget
what you said people expect it to be
well they think it's because of a
behavioral discrepancy it's usually a
values discrepancy it's the way that it
works out so the way that families tend
to break apart and again no joke one in
six Americans is not talking to a family
member today because of politics which
is
craziness for happiness it's great
there's one reason of a Schism with
family and that's abuse and political
differences that there should be yeah
that's the only legitimate reason to
have a Schism in your families because
of abuse and and differences of
political opinion are not abuse at least
they weren't they didn't used to be
abused but if you're being convinced by
you know by leaders who are trying to to
bring you into their culture War trying
to make you a soldier in their culture
War they'll say if somebody disagrees
with your view on you know Supreme Court
decisions or something that they're
somehow uh erasing your value as a human
being I mean that says this wild leaps
of logic and we hear about this on
college campuses where I spend a lot of
my time obviously that we're telling
people that if people disagree with you
that they're erasing you that they they
they they they disagree with your
existence or something it's just this
crazy existential language that we're
using that's way out of proportion to
everything so the only reason to have
these schisms is is actual abuse and
again people disagree with what abuse is
but it's not that okay now what do we
find with when when people tend to
really have a bad problem in their
family people think that you know for
example I deal with a lot of students
and they're they're building their lives
and figuring out how they're going to
live their own lives and it turns out
that they disagree with their parents on
a lot they come home from college saying
different things for example they you
know they're living in a particular
different way things that their parents
might really disagree with it turns out
that how you live your life doesn't
matter it almost never matters and
almost never leads to schism
what you say about somebody else's
values is what really matters so if you
want to have a really big so all the you
know all the people in college who are
watching us and you have I know you have
a huge audience in their in their late
teens and 20s or impact three fans which
is great if you want to have a live your
life but have a relationship with your
parents live your life but don't kill
tell your parents that their values are
stupid that turns out to be a direct on
attack and that leads to bigger problems
one thing that's become really popular
though is
um tell your dad or your uncle who says
the racist thing at Thanksgiving what
you think should they not do that no
it's perfectly fine to do that but don't
freak out don't freak out you say I you
know I see it different yeah hey Uncle
Mark you know I see it differently and
and and and as you do say to yourself
before you begin I love Uncle Mark and
I'm going to use my values right now as
a gift and not as a weapon
anytime you use your values as a weapon
you've denigrated their moral content
you've eviscerated the effectiveness of
your approach but if you use your values
as a gift it might not always be taken
in a charitable way but you're using
them for the right reason and you've got
the odds on chance of actually having a
good impact
okay this is really interesting
um I had Sam Harris on the show who I
have a great deal of respect for he's
become very unpopular in certain circles
for the way that he is approaching the
problem of free speech right I want to
be abundantly clear yeah that my value
system tells me that free speech is
worth dying for and so it isn't the
thing that I would expect anybody to
reach for and say okay we're gonna clamp
down on that now Sam sees it differently
and as I try to tease out when a smart
person
when I I learned one immutable truth
when two smart people who are sincere
think each other are stupid right then
odds are that they have different base
assumptions yeah and when I look at Sam
and I say okay Sam's base assumption is
that if something is an existential
threat then it's worth
stripping away any right to make sure
that we don't succumb to set existential
threat and then I was like okay because
I don't know that I would disagree with
that if I knew there was an asteroid
hurtling towards Earth and it was life
or death and we were all going to have
to get on the same page and do XYZ thing
if I really knew that it was do X
survive do y everyone dies then I would
for sure say do X right it makes sense
but I don't think people know how to
agree on what is the right course of
action nor do you have perfect knowledge
right so no perfect knowledge you don't
know if it's actually an existential
threat and so I'll take it out of that
realm for a second that's the problem
right people don't have perfect
knowledge they don't know but and now
I'll take it in the realm that I do
understand very well when you're
building a business you must give your
team certainty right so what I call
intoxicating them with certainty it's
the only way to get them to follow you
right now the catch is as a leader you
have to balance you know that your team
has a need for certainty it's the only
way to get the moving in the same
direction right but you have to balance
that with what we were talking about
before what I call the physics of
progress that the only way to make
progress is to constantly hunger for how
am I wrong so you have to okay I was
wrong here I need to update my thinking
I need to update my Approach if you
don't do that you're screwed but now
there's tension between I need to
present to my team hey this is the way
but I also need to beg my team to tell
me at all times how I'm wrong right
because they're the ones that are going
to recognize the flaw in your thinking
that are going to show you a better way
right so it's this absolutely
fascinating tension now when this plays
out in the bigger world with the speed
of information that we have today thanks
to the internet and social media you get
this right which I would say has a level
of pathology in it that scares the life
out of me right so how do we manage that
tension of its imperfect knowledge
but I must give certainty in order to
get a country or a globe moving in the
right direction and an easy way to get
people certainty is to say we're all
going to die right right which is the
thing that people reach for right but if
you don't give people certainty meh
everybody runs in weird directions well
the the answer well the Buddhists would
say the answer to that question is
intention without attachment okay so
certainty is this is the direction that
we're going this is the goal this is the
target as far as I can see it but I'm
not attached to that because this is
this is subject to updating so you'll
find for example you look at the ancient
navigational course of Columbus or you
know the Explorers you know that had
very imperfect tools they had a concept
of the direction that they were going
and they had a particular goal and they
were going toward that goal with
complete certainty it was you know
Columbus was an entrepreneur and he was
he was taking his team the Nina pinton
Santa Maria toward this particular goal
and it turned out to be completely wrong
but the point is that the certainty was
the intention the fact that they got
something else that was arguably better
was the lack of attachment to the object
of the intention and this is what we're
trying to do in our companies in our
families and and indeed in the
Enterprise the ultimate Enterprise that
we need impact which is our lives I mean
it's like you're Tom Inc that's the real
Enterprise of you I mean just manifested
itself in all sorts these other cool
businesses and things are really
successful but all those were just
expressions of the of the real
Enterprise and each of us is an
entrepreneur in startup of Our Lives
that's what really matters and what we
need is to always have a clear intention
but not attachment to the object of that
intention because that makes you
dogmatic and the problem that we have
right now is we have fuzzy intention and
strong attachment we have exactly the
opposite of what we need in our politics
today and the way that people talk to
each other the way that people debate
and so if I have a strong intention of
the things that I believe even
politically but a lack of strong
attachment I can have a conversation in
Sam Harris and I had a similar
conversation except it was about
religion
and you know I'm I'm a traditionally
religious person and he's an atheist and
the way that we went at it we before we
we you know hit record on a show we said
we're going to talk about this to learn
we're not going to talk about this to
argue we're going to talk about this to
learn right and so when he would say
something I thought was like whoa I'd be
like Dude tell me more right and he
would say explain this to me because
this sounds crazy to me so truly explain
this to me so what is that that was we
both had this intention but we didn't
have the attachment and so we were
willing to update and so doing we got
better now when you're running a team if
you've got a company and I've been a CEO
so I've had I've I've made all these
mistakes over the years if they see that
you have this very clear intention we're
running this direction this is what we
think this is my best judgment but my
attachment to these things is not is not
absolute you can throw me off this if
you actually bring the best possible
information to me and you can tell me
that that the way I'm thinking about it
is not quite right then I'm going to
change the intention but in the meantime
this is the direction that we're all
going that turns out to be the way to
square the circle this turns out to be
the way to to solve this problem
personally in families and communities
and in companies is intention with that
attachment
all right that's amazing but how do you
do that how do you I I have a feeling
that a big part of the problem is people
have
accidentally constructed their identity
around that which they think they are so
I am in fact oh God if I can remember
this is maybe a paraphrase but it's
really damn close to something you said
we need less
activists and more volunteers
and when somebody you were like Hollow I
I have tried to immerse myself in your
world one for the this and two you are
incredibly helpful for navigating people
trying to do extraordinary things in
their life in a way that makes their
life better and not worse so the the
Strivers curse I forget the exact words
but perfect yeah you're good so if
people identify as an activist or a
volunteer that that simple like even you
just giving me the language I was like
oh whoa I get what you're trying to say
helping others versus like my identity
is this thing and I'm going to fight to
the death for this
um but how do you begin to extricate
your identity from the things that you
believe so that you can have
non-attachment to begin with we have to
ask who am I
and you're going to Define that or
you're going to discover we well you
ultimately discover that but you have to
have an understanding of that that's
that's not brittle and that's not based
on the outside world so there's a
philosophical concept that William James
talked about but the Eastern
philosophers talk about this a lot too
which is what William James called the I
self versus the me self the I self is is
say you're looking at a mirror and when
you look in the mirror there's actually
there's two of you there's the one who's
looking in the one who's being looked at
the one who's looking is the I self The
Observer of the world the one who's
being looked at is the me self which is
the observed you're going through life
as I self and me self you need me self
to know who you are and how you store
you stand in society and where you know
where you are on the team and where you
are in the hierarchy and you know where
you are in traffic for that matter but
you need the I sell so that you can
learn and you can exist we are all too
heavy on the me self on The observed and
none of us almost none of us is heavy
enough on the Observer part so one of
the exercises I'll give my students at
Harvard Business School they take this
happiness class which is about the you
know it's called leadership and
happiness the serious science of of the
business of you and and I'll say we're
going to go through an hour you're gonna
take an hour where you're not going to
be observed You're simply going to
observe and now this means a lot this
means for example you say like you don't
say yeah this coffee is bitter you say
hmm this coffee has a bitter flavor
nothing more than observation there's no
mirrors there's no notifications on
social media there's no judgments
there's just observation of the world to
get better at that and this is
incredibly important if we want to learn
and we want to update this also gets us
away from this whole concept of my
identity in my ideology because what
that fundamentally is is just me me me
me me me me me me me me it's like who am
I I am the things that I think if
somebody disagrees with me then they're
attacking me that's Insanity that's pure
vanity that is just looking in a mirror
all day long saying mirror mirror on the
wall who's the most beautiful of them
all it's me and my political beliefs
that's craziness there's no there's no
way to live and by the way that's the
fastest way to become a truly unhappy
person why the reason is because you
need the Grandeur of the world to
actually give you what you need the
experience of day-to-day life and living
in the the the image of yourself is just
boring it's just tedious if you know
thinking about me and what they think of
me and whether or not they agree with me
and whether or not these things are
going to satisfy me me me me it's like
watching the same episode of the same
season of Better Call Saul every single
day for the rest of your life
it was okay the first time it was not
that great the second time and it's
awful every time after that and being
forced to do that that's identity
politics that's the world of identity
that's the world of mirrors that's the
world of social media notifications
that's the world of the me self is what
it comes down to so if we really want to
be happy get into the I self the
learning space the observation the awe
of the outside world and your life will
change it'll just change and it's fast
you can reboot your life your health
even your career anything you want all
you need is discipline I can teach you
the tactics that I learned while growing
a billion dollar business that will
allow you to see your goals through
whether you want better health stronger
relationships a more successful career
any of that is possible with the mindset
and business programs in Impact Theory
University join the thousands of
students who have already accomplished
amazing things tap now for a free trial
and get started today
so in the book you say that uh basically
exactly what you just said that
happiness isn't the feeling but the
feeling is evidence of the happiness
right so then what is the happiness what
is the meat and potatoes yeah that's a
good analogy because it's the either the
courses or really the macronutrients in
the the thing that is happiness this has
three parts to it we know this from from
you know measuring people who have high
levels of well-being versus those who
don't High well-being is associated with
high levels of enjoyment satisfaction
and meaning in life those are the three
things that we need to actually pursue
the pursuit of happiness is the pursuit
of enjoyment the pursuit of satisfaction
and the pursuit of meaning and there are
three different goals with three
different sciences and three different
strategies to it when somebody only
pursues one they're not going to be
happy you need a balance and abundance
across this macronutrient profile for
happiness if you're going to get it I
meet people all the time who have great
enjoyment in life but very little
meaning and they're not happy I know
people hard-working entrepreneurs who
have tremendous meaning and no quality
of life no enjoyment they're not happy
and so I have to coach people in
different ways about this satisfaction
is the hardest of them because it's
going to ask because you can't keep it
you know and so they each have a son you
keep satisfaction because the brain is
something has a tendency to be
homeostatic homeostasis is the tendency
of the brain to always take you
emotionally back to equilibrium so
you'll be ready for the next set of
circumstances interesting can I push
back on that yeah so why and obviously I
agree with homeostasis but uh the way
that I've always thought about how
transient satisfaction is going back to
understanding the science is from an
evolutionary standpoint
if you ate a meal and it was satisfying
forever you would starve to death right
because you would only eat once right
and so
knowing that Evolution will conserve can
serve conserve if I have this mechanism
that make sure that I go do the thing
again that is basically this
um rise and fall of satisfaction that
happens with everything that I would be
in trouble if I only did once right so
uh thirst satisfaction gonna rise and
fall hunger rise and fall sex Rise and
Fall Right consumption consumption
hierarchy Prestige the watch the car the
house all of it well now it's
interesting now I wonder the sourcing
exactly the same homeostasis that is
homeostasis because the the watch losing
its thing although it's probably the
same mechanism is because it's trying to
get me to go do more and but here's the
thing about it the reason we don't we
don't ever realize that when you think
people say should I moved to California
because then I'll be primarily happy
because of the sunshine no the big
benefit that you get from mood benefit
from Sunshine is six months but the
taxes
so I'm gonna try to hurt you man so um
the key thing to understand about
homeostasis is that mother nature
doesn't want you to know it exists
Mother Nature has homeostasis so that
you'll be ready for the next set of
circumstances but fools you again and
again and again into thinking that this
time the satisfaction will be permanent
and it never is by the way this is
physical too so you step off the
treadmill and your your heart is going
135 beats per minute which you're doing
for good cardiovascular health within 15
minutes your heart rate has gone back to
its base rate so you don't die well the
same thing is true with your emotions
homeostasis has to reset you but when it
comes to the satisfactions that we seek
you know caloric or you know propagation
of the genes through mating and all the
stuff that we want to do we always think
that that relationship will give me
Permanent satisfaction because if you
knew if you knew then you'd be like
that's going to give me 10 minutes of
Happiness I'm not even going to do it
and you'd stop being it's you stay you
wouldn't be in the hustle you wouldn't
be in the fight fight anymore you
wouldn't go get the banana off the top
of the tree and risk your life you
wouldn't trudge across the Savannah to
get that meal you would lose your
motivation and mother nature wants you
to be motivated and she does that by
fooling you
so that you think that this time I'm
really going to love that car forever
and it's like a month it turns out so
that's so satisfaction is a real
conundrum
only when you understand the science of
can you short-circuit the science only
when you when you understand the Matrix
can you find a glitch and can you find
the glitch in The Matrix that's why it's
so incredibly empowering because there
is a way around that for satisfaction
the same thing is true for enjoyment by
the way everybody thinks they enjoy it's
listening a pleasure wrong
pleasure is not the secret of Happiness
pleasure is this is is the is the short
way to get addiction and nobody ever
says you know yeah man you know the
secret to my happiness
methamphetamine never nobody ever says
oh yeah it's like partying away my
entire paycheck in Vegas and then my
wife leaving me that's that's not the
secret of Happiness that's the secret to
pleasure and pleasure is not connected
to happiness unless you take pleasure
and you add two things people and memory
if you add pleasure plus people plus
memory you get enjoyment those must be
stand-ins for something what are the the
people and the memories and
Consciousness so just uh you have to do
it in the social species and I'm gonna
get tremendously rewarded this uh this
is a good time to bring up so
I'm really obsessed with this idea that
running in the back of your mind are
evolutionary algorithms right and
there's no escaping them and so there
are just certain things you are going to
have to do if you want to
I don't know if you're going to agree
with this framing but if you if you're
going to feel the way you want to feel
you must be aware of these algorithms
you must acknowledge them right so I've
always tried to migrate people away from
happiness
not as you define it as the smell of the
turkey right stop worrying about stop
worrying about how she feelings right
exactly because they're so transient
correct and get to fulfillment correct
and fulfillment for me has a formula be
interested to see if you agree with this
um these are based on what I consider
the evolutionary algorithms running in
your mind that there is no escape from
so you are going to have to work hard
anything that comes easily will just not
it won't resonate that's a satisfaction
issue by the way satisfaction is the joy
that comes after struggle that's what
satisfaction is
so you get satisfaction you just have to
come from struggles you have to do
something and it's a sense of earning
something so for example can I if you
you cheat on the exam and you get an A
there's no satisfaction true but I feel
deeply satisfied after good sex
do I feel like I earned it I don't know
I have not investigated this feeling
yeah but that's that's actually that's
that's not satisfaction that's enjoyment
that's what you and satisfaction I feel
sexually satisfied well that's a word
that we use but it's different than what
we're talking about here so it's again
we're defining the terms which I think
is important super important because you
may be about to have me separate two
ideas that because I don't have words
for it yeah people talk about sexual
satisfaction where they're talking about
sexual enjoyment so an enjoyment is a
better word done so when I am overcome
with desire right the right way to think
of it for me is hunger it feels the same
right I've got to have this thing I
really want it anticipatory chemicals oh
my God and then I get it right and so
like I'll differentiate between
masturbation and sex right when I
masturbate I don't necessarily feel
satisfied that's one of the things that
makes that such a whatever Pursuit
whereas when I have sex I feel satisfied
yeah like there's some deeper thing in
me yeah and and it it is an
extinguishing of The Hunger but because
I have oxytocin and vasopressin it's
like oh man I feel so good so it's this
combination of the calming of that like
seeking Behavior right with like and I
feel so bonded and connected to this
person
now this is just terms so the way to
think about it in in this particular
framework is pleasure versus enjoyment
got it okay so pleasure is you know
something that pornography is associated
with pleasure
um sexual activity in a in a in a
pair-bonded relationship is is
associated with enjoyment because it has
people and memory and so one of the
things to keep in mind a strategy
especially for a lot of young people a
lot of young men is to is to do is if
you like something it's best if you're
not doing it alone
because then you're probably gonna stop
it not necessarily this is just kind of
a rule of thumb this is not this is not
an iron law but it's a rule of thumb
doing it alone is associated with
pleasure so you know
um Anheuser-Busch doesn't do ads about
beer where they show a dude pounding a
12-pack alone in his apartment right why
not because yeah that would be yeah
because a lot of people use alcohol for
pleasure right which leads to addiction
and misery they talk they see you know
you and me cracking open a Bud Light and
clink and talking about how great it is
and because we're friends and we're
making a memory and that's enjoyment
which is associated with happiness so we
have a we have a basic idea that the
same thing is true with the example of
sex that you talked about a minute ago
you could it can be pleasure or it can
be enjoyment and everybody knows the
difference between sexual experiences
that are pleasurable or enjoyable and
joy enjoyment is the goal because that's
one of the macronutrients of Happiness
we talk about in terms in the terms that
you define about satisfaction but it's
really a in this terminology and again
you know you have to just defining terms
these are just words but the concepts
underlying them are are critical in the
book you give a really good example of
pleasure without enjoyment yeah uh would
you mentioned obliquely a minute ago but
when you think of a drug addict yeah
they're doing the drug right they're
theoretically getting the pleasure but
they're not getting any of the enjoyment
right they're getting tons of pleasure
it's because they're loading only on
pleasure but no enjoyment because it's
not social and it actually is not
engaging the prefrontal cortex and the
hippocampus to create memory and so you
you will you simply will have a
transient experience and the transient
experience will be unsatisfying until
you'll hit the lever again and again and
again and again and it will lower your
quality of life so that's the key thing
if there's something you really really
love so for example I'll ask people will
talk about because I've done a lot of
work on the on the science of addiction
it's a very interesting subject people
say how do you know if you're addicted
because these are behavioral constructs
you know you can't take a blood test to
know if you're if you're an alcoholic if
you're you know so it's these are
behavioral and the big behavioral thing
is do you prefer to drink alone
do you prefer to actually become
inebriated alone that means you're
looking for pleasure versus enjoyment
and that is a that is has a lot that
will lead you more to addiction more
toward addiction and away from happiness
is the way that that works that's the
reason that people say never drink alone
they don't know what they're saying is
they're saying enjoy it
don't have it be a source of pleasure
because that's dangerous so that gives
you an idea so we've talked a little bit
about satisfaction talking a little bit
of enjoyment these are heavy heavy
topics in terms of the social science
and Neuroscience for sure and we haven't
even touched on meaning which is the
heaviest of them all which is the
hardest of them all so you can become a
what I really want is I want people to
be to be obsessed with to have their
hobby be the science of happiness and
how they can get it and spread it to
that would be a really meritorious
movement if people are like yeah more of
the science more understanding it I want
to be excellent at this I'm going to be
most excellent my hobby is getting
better at happiness and it's changed my
life it's a good hobby it's really been
a good hobby for me yeah I made it into
a career that you most certainly did
um so I want to close the loop on the
Fulfillment recipe and give you a take
on that so uh you have to work really
hard
because that's just nature reassures
that you're going to do that so that
you're out doing the hard things like
getting a meal protecting your family
Etc uh to acquire a set of skills right
that's a big lean on progress because I
agree progress I think is a foundational
pillar of human happiness right uh so
you're going to work really hard to gain
a set of skills that allow you to serve
yourself and others right and it needs
to be in a way that you find exciting so
that to me is those are the things that
nature is going to ensure that you do
and if you're the doing it for not only
yourself but others is the meaning
portion of this right
um
why do is it that people never stop to
identify what gives them meaning is it
that they confuse meaning is that
they're stuck in the me self why do so
people so few people end up cracking
that code part of the reason is because
they're not specifically trying to find
meaning they don't make it a goal they
just they they a lot of people believe
that if I do what I'm really really good
at and I can be successful at that it's
going to give me a ton of meaning
automatically and that's not right like
anything else you have to do things on
purpose did you get meaning when you
were a classical musician no that was
the reason that's the reason I'm not a
class would you have gotten meaning out
of it many people do but here's the
thing I I my favorite composer is Johann
Sebastian Bach maybe the greatest
composer who ever lived great story yeah
I mean uh uh 1685 to 1750 20 kids he had
20 kids yeah he was a he was productive
as a composer I would say I was a
Catholic he wasn't he was Lutheran but
um but he was uh I say that because I
know you're Catholic yeah you wonder why
I made a joke it was just a sexy
Lutheran but and and Bach
was asked near the end of his life while
he wrote music
it's the why question you know our
friend Simon sinek he always talks about
start with Y and it's fantastic I mean
it's been because it really is you know
people are going around asking what and
hoping to get the Y for free and Simon's
entrepreneurial twist is start with why
and then the what will come
automatically and you'll be a lot more
satisfied because you'll find the source
of meaning so box y when he was asked
why do you write music was the Eamon
Final End of all music is the
refreshment of the soul and the
glorification of God okay not bad not
bad at all but I read that in my late
20s when I was still I was in the
Barcelona Symphony in those days it is a
good job and it was you know I love the
music it's really into it it's kind of a
high Prestige job you know playing the
greatest show sounds cool it sounds cool
sounds cool yeah
but I couldn't I couldn't answer like
that I couldn't answer like that I
didn't feel like I was refreshing Souls
particularly I certainly didn't feel
like I was glorifying God I was even
built that in though because this is one
thing I was saying people think they're
gonna find me it wasn't my thing it just
wasn't my thing and so I went in search
of something where I could answer my why
question like Bach
I became a social scientist that was
that was it because you know when I I
because after that you also you you go
on to run the think tank after that
right right yeah so I got my PhD I
actually finished College a month before
my 30th birthday my correspondence so
this is not a typical path to you know a
professorship at Harvard obviously this
is not typically the way it gets done
this is a great country isn't it yeah
um be a kid from Puyallup can do this
it's fantastic crazy I love that so um
and then I went and I I got so
interested when I was doing my my
bachelor's degree in the in human
behavior and the fact that you can model
it and you can study it that I I went
back and got my Master's in PhD as a
social scientist as a quantitative
social scientist I was doing for a
living I was doing military operations
research at the Rand Corporation for you
know like secret stuff for the Air Force
and all that but you know using and you
felt the sense of meaning and all that I
was what I felt a sense of Minion was I
was learning so much that was so
critically interesting and I had a
strong sense that I was gonna I was
learning how to
ask and answer original questions about
human behavior they're going to push the
boundary of what we knew so that
people's lives could get better I had a
very strong sense that it was gonna it
was in the offing it was going to take
decades was the part about so people's
lives could be better was that a
critical part of that it was a critical
thing to earn my success I needed to do
something where my work creative value
in my life and the life of other people
that I think that that is so big and
look you cover this in the book so I
know this is a mysterious to you but uh
focusing outward like if you want to be
happy we don't need this is me
paraphrasing you again we don't need
self-care we need other care right and I
just have learned uh through unfortunate
trial and error that if I'm doing
something only for me it I'll run ashore
on the me me probably totally until you
get into me self-world it's all me self
you know other care is I self that's I'm
going to look outward at whether people
need I'm going to be thinking more about
them which gets me away from the
the boring repetitive tedium of the me
Me soundtrack to begin with I mean it
has I mean it's just simple you're
you're distracted from the stuff that's
so boring and yet so
um you look at so obsessively over the
course of your life so that's critically
important and you find I mean again
there's tons and tons of studies that
actually show that the more you give the
happier you get the more you give the
Richer you get the more you give the
better looking you are is it it's a
wonderful study it's all perception so
there's this one study where These Guys
these social psychologists they they
bring men it's a men into the lab who
are partnered and it's all heterosexual
couples and they bring them in some have
been dating for six months and some have
been married for 50 years and that the
guys in white lab coats and they say
okay it's a simple experiment I'm gonna
sir I'm gonna give you these coins put
them in your pocket you and your wife or
girlfriend you're gonna walk down this
little path to that other building down
there and my colleague is going to
interview you and then you get to keep
the money that's it
as I walk down this little path outside
and there's an Alleyway between the
buildings and this homeless guy comes
ambling out
of the alley and panhandles the husband
or boyfriend he's a Confederate to the
experiment obviously
he says hey got some change he does they
know he does because they put the money
in his pocket and he has to make a
decision in front of his wife on whether
he's going to help the homeless guy they
get to the other building and the first
question in the interview is did you
help the homeless guy how much did you
give him and then the second question is
to the wife how attractive do you find
him right now
the more you support the homeless guy
the hotter she finds you that's so
interesting that's the reason on a first
date you're like I love Humanity I
support you know I build houses for the
poor I love dogs I love babies you're
trying to look like you know Albert
Schweitzer on a first date that's
hilarious because you're more handsome
that is very interesting okay so
um we know that being outward focused is
going to be beneficial but you were
talking about
um you needed to find the answer to your
why what is going to be that thing that
I could answer in the way that Bach does
I find in life basically nobody finds
that like that that is so rare and when
they do find it it ends up being very
transient so how did you navigate
because you're for people that don't
know we we did another interview which I
highly encourage them to go watch and so
we covered this I don't want to tread a
ton of the same ground but I think it's
worth telling people you've would you
say that your career has been spiral
yeah for sure okay you gave me the
language mine has for sure yeah um I I
it's interesting you make me question
whether that's just my personality and I
was going to end up there no matter what
or if it really was what I the story
I've told myself my entire life which is
I did all of this just to get into
storytelling and I needed to control the
assets maybe maybe we'll get into that
well those are that's those are
endogenous to each other yeah maybe yeah
but what I want to know now is did your
why run out and that's why you
reinvented yourself did it just migrate
like how have you kept that alive in
your life I I took opportunities that
were put in my path that I thought were
in line with this vision of how I was
trying to grow so I had a intention but
I didn't have attachment
so when I was a French horn player
leaving that becoming a social scientist
I I had an intention to do this work on
human behavior to as to help myself and
others to make life better to increase
love and happiness in other people's
lives but I was not attached to what
manifestation that was going to take and
that's what I urge all young people to
do to have a virtuous beautiful
intention without attachment with
respect to the the expression that it's
going to take at any particular time but
taught for a number of years I loved it
super great then I thought I should run
something that I think is going to be
good for Humanity and for society you
know and so I ran this think tank this
big think tank in Washington DC had 300
employees mostly just raised money I had
to raise 50 million dollars a year to
keep the doors open and it was a
thrilling experience it was exhausting
to be sure but what I was trying to do
was to use my background as a social
scientist to create better public policy
to hire really good people that was
going to to make the country in the
world Freer and better with an emphasis
us on opportunity for people at the
margins of society which is what my
Think Tank was engaged in after about 10
years I knew I was getting stale man I
was getting stale so I had the same
intention but I had no attachment to
Arthur Brooks president of the American
Enterprise Institute that was a that
would be a disordered attachment because
that's not who I am I'm Arthur Brooks
I'm a husband I'm a father I'm a child
of God and I am put on Earth to lift
people up in bonds of love and happiness
using science and ideas what's the next
assignment what's the next assignment
and the next assignment was to do what I
do now which is I have a company that
teaches writes speaks and teaches widely
and does media on the science of
Happiness to popularize to see the world
as a classroom and an enormous course of
study of the science of Happiness to
lift people up and that you know so I
can I have I have a call on the Atlantic
and I read books and I get to talk to
you and I get to travel around speak I
teach at Harvard and it's phenomenal but
that's no I'm not attached because I
know this is not the last assignment I
have intention but the attachment no no
no no no the attachment's the killer of
all these things and you too it's like
next assignment please
but here's the direction we're going in
I need to do this thing this thing is
going to serve and when you're really in
the zone it's it's a thrill it's a
thrill you just can't get it off of it
when you're really in the zone too but
it's not because you're going for the
thrill it's because you're going for the
value you want the you want to hit that
vein of value right and when you run
that vein out then you go look for it
you dig a new mind what does it mean to
run the vein out though so
um
okay how pure was your move into the the
think tank because you talk about idols
I've listened to enough of your content
I know what yo