Kind: captions
Language: en
everybody's like in their house they
work in their cubicle they go home they
get on Discord they play a game they go
to sleep they don't have any partners
and they're miserable but they don't
know why
when you look at red pill or you look at
them I assume don't let me put words in
your mouth but I assume there are Parts
with you like okay these are actually
useful ideas that was my initial
reaction if we don't want a blanket go
after what the red pill Community is
chasing what should we be aiming at one
thing that I don't like about a lot of
red book creators and like the Tates I
feel this thing is people will always
say things like I'm luring you in with
the cars and the money and the girls but
I'm ultimately trying to sell you
self-improvement I feel like that's a
deal with the devil that just doesn't
pan out I don't think that you can
capture interest with money talk about
money money self-improvement money money
money money money money girls self
improvement money money money girls
because what's happening is you're
fostering an attachment to and a desire
for and a drive to acquire all of those
material goods and I don't think at the
end of a two or three year process of
that can you just flip a switch and be
like you know what actually I'm just
looking for like inner peace and
self-fulfillment like I think that has
to be from the start like I've never
heard of like Buddhist monks that are
like I just need to buy one Ferrari so
that I can realize how much I don't need
cars in my life right like it doesn't
work that way you I think you have to be
on a journey from the very start doing
the things you're advocating for doing
the things that you think ultimately are
going to resemble what your end product
is you can't do this bait and switch and
pretend that everybody's going to get it
like my guess would be if you could find
ways to pull people or stick a probe in
somebody's brain and measure it the
people that follow these red pill guys
are probably some of the most materially
driven people in the world which is both
ironic and sad because I think the the
red pill and the manuscript stuff to
some extent is like a response to kind
of like the empty liberal Wasteland of I
need possessions and objects to be my
hyper unique individual and not have any
Community orientation I consider myself
to be a very confident person for
whatever reason I've been very
independent of my whole life I've been
very confident in my whole life what's
it anchored around you're very smart you
think fast is it that
um I've I was very much left to my own
devices growing up like both my parents
moved out by the time was 15 16. I lived
in my own work like I was very much an
independent kid that breaks most people
so why did it make you confident no idea
I can't give you the answer to that can
I guess
um if you want to interesting that are
you nervous about my guess
uh no I can guess like 10 different
things your guess will be no I want to
hear yours first all right so my my
guess is uh you you have a lot of
intellectual horsepower you are very
Tethered to reality therefore you're
building maps of the world that are
actually effective and I think the most
unhappy people are the people whose base
assumptions are least Tethered to
reality and because of that their
prediction engine breaks and when your
prediction engine breaks and you can't
figure out how if I do this I will get
if I do a action I will get B result if
you can't figure that out life is going
to be miserable and it will seem
completely random you will feel
victimized you will get paralyzed and
and you will just throw your hands up
because you feel like the world knocks
you around and and you're just here for
the ride but if you're like you and for
whatever reason I don't know you well
enough to know how you ended up here
but you are you're able to build a
rubric by which you think it isn't
random like you really tether the way
that you'll break down an argument
you'll be like well this is my North
Star that's what everything is aiming at
this um base assumption is either true
or false you can test it against the
world show me the data you're very clear
about that if it's it's something I call
the physics of progress there there just
is a physics to the way that one makes
progress in a life period I don't care
who you are and I have a feeling because
of your intellect that you were very
able to navigate the world well doesn't
mean you didn't end up as a carpet
cleaner for a while but like you
navigated your way out of you know
feeling bad about leaving College to
take the job of the casino getting fired
from that ending up in carpet cleaning
but you navigated it and so I doubt you
felt hopeless for any long period of
time no that's true only a brief period
when I did the carpet cleaning stuff was
actually at the bottom of my Saturday
yeah but even at the bottom of that did
you feel like I'm stuck here forever
yeah you did yeah when my ex that I had
an abusive relationship with told me she
was pregnant and when I basically
flunked School uh for music to work full
time after I basically entered a
sophomore because I had so many AP
credits to flunk school and then to get
fired from the casino job that I was
that I flunked school for yeah it was
pretty I felt pretty dumb okay so how
did you get out because that moment made
I got super super Lucky by stumbling
under the streaming stuff it was yeah it
was a really bad it that's that's it's
always funny because like the most
Libertarian or like conservative I was
in my life was at the height of the
carpet cleaning and then once I'd gotten
into streaming and I've started to make
more and more and more money I'm moving
further and further left because I
realized how unbelievably horrible life
is when you don't have money and how
much things change when you do but yeah
yeah I mean truly it was like truly a
lot of luck to because I just happened
to be born at the right time I happened
to play The Right video games Starcraft
was the biggest streamed game basically
in the world and I happened to like play
a lot of Starcraft growing up I happen
to know a lot about like computer
technology yeah so I was just a super
right place in the right time yeah you
can't ignore luck and you need to own
when you you got really lucky like my
last company Quest the timing was just
luck I couldn't have done anything and
it was me getting really fed up at
exactly the right moment so I was just a
little bit ahead of everybody else when
we entered the world of social media and
so I will say that the rate of growth of
that company is luck sure but the fact
that we were able to build that company
was not luck there's a there's a saying
there's a quote that luck is
um preparation meets opportunity So the
lucky part is the opportunity but you
have to prepare to be ready to conquer
right for sure and I agree with that to
some extent but not for kids like I
think at kids it's just so like at what
age are you drawing a line the whole
from zero to 18. so like for example
um I mean you found streaming after that
um yeah I think when I was 21 is when I
started here's an example of like I'm
aware that I put in a lot of work too
and everything but I'd like to be
mindful of how different my life could
have been if one or two things would
have been changed
um so I discovered this about myself
when I was studying for my son
um for whether or not he had ADHD I'm
pretty sure I have unbelievably
unmanaged ADHD but there were a couple
things about it that I didn't understand
until I started reading for my son
um so in retrospect I look at like my
schooling life and I understand a lot I
was a horrible student
um I was like I had an assignment
notebook that like my teacher had to
sign and my parents had to sign because
I was so bad about doing homework
sometimes I would fall asleep in class
because I'd like sang up with too late
playing video games just the worst type
of student ever but the types of video
games I happen to like and this is
totally at random I don't get credit for
this I really liked role-playing games
like Japanese RPGs and so that's one
lucky thing a second lucky thing is I
happen to be born at a time when there
was no voice acting so I was such a good
reader I was in all AP classes I did a
lot of dual enrollment and you're saying
you became a good reader because you
could read this because I play those
types of video games but let's say I
would have grown up and I only played
like first person shooters I would have
been a I don't want to say [ __ ] but I
would have been [ __ ] I would have been
the dumbest kid in school ever because
who would I be because I don't spend any
time studying but because I was such a
good reader and I think reading is like
the most important skill that you can
probably have in school
um and then for whatever reason I had an
aptitude for math I don't want to say I
have flourished at school I think I came
out with like a it was like a 2.9 GPA
but I like I almost I was like three
credits from going into college as a
sophomore because I'd done so much AP so
much doing a room on everything all of
that like academic whatever you want to
call it was completely luck based
because I happened to play the right
types of games growing up and if I would
have been born 10 years later where
everybody has voice acting now I don't
even know if I'd be able to read I would
just be like an idiot I would be like oh
you know whatever like I would just be
so much different you know yeah and then
the technology stuff for whatever reason
I'm like very curious but like I like to
take things apart and put them back
together in the very early days of
streaming nowadays you push a button on
OBS and you go live way back in the day
we had have you ever heard a program
called flash media live encoder oh my
God it was this thing you had to
download like a different encoder to
encode the video you had to download a
different program to capture the camera
we used I think I think it was Camtasia
Studio we had to download something
called virtual audio cables to Route
multiple channels of audio to one thing
plus your headphone you're running like
six different programs and while you're
doing all of this you're only limited to
stream
like 300 kilobits per second okay so
this is way back there but if you go
back and you look at my videos on
YouTube from like 12 years ago they look
pretty good but it was because I spent
so much time like I remember the encoder
like people try to find like all these
ways to make stream better there's this
like x264 encoder that was so good but
it was it was only Japanese so when you
downloaded it all the documentation is
in Japanese I don't think there was
Google translate back then nobody knew
what the [ __ ] anything was you there
were no forums to get help but do you
speak Japanese no [ __ ] no I just would
plug it in and tweak settings until
eventually I got a really good image but
like so much of that was I worked I
worked a lot more than anybody else did
to make it work but the only reason I
even had those tools was because of so
many little lucky things that just
happened to fall the right way for me
growing up you know luck means something
to you it luck is it means that it's not
fair that's I think that's the thing
that bothers me the most and I see it
especially Through The Eyes of my son
like I was able to when I wanted him to
go to school I bought a house in the
best school district so that he could do
that and over like coffee of it like
when these kits are in kindergarten I
think they had laptops assigned to them
or iPads in kindergarten every single
kid got one and I moved from South South
Omaha where I lived and like some of
these schools have like [ __ ] like
textbooks and so when I see like no
offense to my kid I love him but he
didn't do anything to earn any of the
advantages that he has and to some
extent he's disadvantaged on because my
mom was a split but like there are so
many things that I could do to make his
life easier just because I had a lot of
money and it's like then I think of like
all the kids who are like kind of [ __ ]
because their parents just don't happen
to have enough money I'm like man that's
such [ __ ] and then I think to myself
like I consider myself to be if you
respect maybe think I'm an intelligent
individual that's cool but I was like
one or two decisions away from I would
be the guy showing up at your house like
cleaning your carpet and then that's all
you would ever see me and I'd leave and
that could have been like the rest of my
life you know I was like one or two
different decisions away from that being
the case so
it's interesting if you you said there
were like one or two traits that you had
that helped you be successful if if I
wanted to really mess you up what would
I damage about you or if you think of it
as video game stats
what one of your areas of stats would I
want to knock down a couple pegs to
really mess up your life well assuming
you're not talking about like maiming me
or physically no no no like just think
of it as game stats the the most
important attribute I have that I think
powered me for every part of my entire
life was I just have very very high
self-esteem I think I probably got that
to some extent from my dad uh my dad is
like a guy who will work and this is
Baseline yeah like he'll work an
impossible amount to like make things
work even if they make bad financial
he'll work 80 hours a week if you have
to and that was like the end of my life
the end of my like working life that was
that like I'll do whatever I need to do
I'll keep working I could do whatever
but like I'm very self-reliant very
self-dependent
um very self-confident like I am my
Island I'll figure my [ __ ] out like I'll
do that that ability or that fundamental
trait has powered me through a lot like
it helps me deal with a lot of hate
online helps to deal with a lot of like
adverse environments it helps me deal
with a lot of people that don't like me
death threats whatever crazy [ __ ] you
find online like I can deal with that
way better than most people and that's
probably my most important attribute
that's really interesting Okay so think
of your son as a video game character
and
um I'm at the end of this I'm going to
ask you who the ideal like man is that
you think people should look up to if
it's somebody even if it's a pop culture
character I will accept that answer but
I'd love to know so he's a video game
character what attributes are we going
to give him and what person real or
character are we modeling that after I
have no idea I never figured that out I
feel bad for him because he's 12 now but
like when I think of all the things that
shaped my life they were like kind of
bad things and I don't want him to like
that's interesting because I agree
because like some of the reasons I
didn't have kids yeah I like we did a
lot of like moving around a lot of
houses got foreclosed on a lot of
utilities got shut off a lot of like
dumb stuff like that well by me being my
own in a dark house with no electricity
and like just sitting there like doing
nothing
um and I think a lot of these things
went to [ __ ] my character and I thought
about that a lot with my kid I was like
what should I do to this [ __ ] to
make him you know but like like you're
not really gonna do that as a parent so
I don't know I
um in terms of like all I can do is I
talk to him as much as I can I try to
encourage him as much as I can
um I see he has a lot of the same
struggles in school as me which is
really [ __ ] frustrating because I I
remember there were certain Math
assignments that I would get and I would
cry and then it's not hard math but I
would just cry because I want to sit
down and do it I thought you said you
were good at math I was but I didn't
want to sit down and do the homework
that was like the that was the stupidest
part about it and I see for him he's
like really similar like he'll bring
home
um sometimes when I go back I'll help
like coach him through or like teach him
like certain things because you know
he's having trouble in certain things in
school and I can help catch him up or
whatever and for a while he was having
trouble math and he would bring these
assignments home I remember there's a
there's like a math assignment that he
had like zero out of six of these
questions correct and I'm like reading
the paper and he says the dumbest [ __ ]
I'm like Nathan we need to sit down and
do this he's like oh I want to go to
Target I want to buy these things I want
like the new Five Nights at Freddy comic
whatever like no we're gonna do it and
he's right [ __ ] and it's just stupid or
whatever if I get him to sit down and
focus and talk him like just make him
like work on it he can do everything
flawlessly and I'm like bro you're like
sabotaging yourself but I mean he's like
11 when I'm telling him what is it I
don't know if he knew what sabotage man
at that age right but like yeah I see
like a lot of the uh similarities so uh
he has access to medication now for his
ADHD at least which apparently I didn't
so hopefully that helps a little bit
like he does a lot better in school now
but yeah I feel like the most I could do
is I wanted to feel like he can
communicate with me always so we've had
like a lot of tough talks about like
online content and conversations with
people uh which are really weird because
I never had to deal with that growing up
kind of or it was a lot different
um yeah that but that's yeah I feel like
it's the best I could do is make myself
available to him and then if he wants to
hang out or do anything or chat about
anything like do that yeah all right
let's uh pretend that God forbid but
something happens to you and you have to
leave a set of ideas for him to grow
into the man that you think will be I
assume you use the word fulfillment or
something along those lines
um what would you want him to focus on
um and this is all meant to be a proxy
for like if the red pill sucks yeah no
it's the right play so here this is
something this is something that I have
an issue with I I feel like maybe
everybody feels this way so me saying it
it's just this is just my individual
frame of reference and I'm too dumb to
realize I'm the only one that thinks
about it or that everybody thinks the
same thing I feel like you have there's
an idea to me of what a strong man is
and then there's like a caricature of a
strong man and I feel like that
caricature is usually what's sold a lot
in the red pill spaces when I think of
all of the people that I grew up and
respected the most they were men that
commanded respect irrespective of any
power they wielded it was just like
I if I try to think so here's like here
would be an example okay
there were certain teachers I'll call
these like the they're the red pill
teachers everybody hates them they give
you demerits if you forget a book
They're screaming at kids in the hallway
and I guess to some extent they project
but I was like wow that's like a manly
dude he's like screaming people blah
blah then there were two teachers oh my
God I had a band teacher okay this guy
for four years because I did um win
ensemble in school
um this guy commanded an unbelievable
amount of respect uh he very very very
rarely would ever write you a demerit
but he was really good at every
instrument he was really passionate
about what he taught he treated every
child like an adult
um sometimes you're referring people
like Oh Mr Burnell or whatever like
that's right very very quiet in terms of
how I carried himself but if you the
worst feeling in the world was
disappointing Mr J Mr Johnson like if we
could be practicing or whatever and you
just you hadn't practiced your part you
didn't know it or whatever and if you
found out like sometimes he would stop
rehearsal and he would step forward and
say hey you want to just go ahead and
pack your Instagram away today and go
out and take a study haul and it was
like the worst feeling and like that
feeling was worse than any detention any
demand because you knew you disappointed
him because he like commanded so much
respect when I think of like manly
manner if I think of like really
masculine respectable people those are
the types of people that I think about
are people that they just they they do
what they do exceedingly well they're
very passionate about it they treat
everyone else around them with respect
and if they're disappointed in you like
you feel like you've lost the world
because it's like this is a guy whose
expectations you want to live up to so I
guess if I died or something happened or
um I I would hope my kid would find
somebody like that but I don't know the
I don't know any mainstream figures
where I'm like that guy I feel like in
old movies I feel like that was kind of
a common thing
um what was common they that you had
like that like the quiet respectable man
I feel like when I think of like old
stuff
um it's funny now because I feel like if
you remade a lot of these movies people
would just call it like oh you're just
making fun of toxic masks do you ever
see like the Mighty Ducks a long time
ago okay you like I feel like I feel
like if I sat and prepared a list you
have a lot of movies where you have an
adolescent teen and he's growing up and
he's like [ __ ] my parents I don't want
to do this I don't know blah blah blah
blah blah and then he usually he'll
break from the team you know go play
hooky or do his own thing and eventually
he comes back to realize like okay this
coach before he's doing things a certain
for a certain reason he carries himself
in a certain way and he's aspiring to
something greater that I need to control
my you know my childish adolescent manly
urges and I need to like be something
greater than myself and I feel like that
was a story that was told over and over
again through like film for young men
and stuff I don't know if you'd see
those stories as much anymore but yeah
so it was a really really long run about
you you see those stories as much that's
a really good question but the idea so
that to me is the modern media machine
grappling with the fact that we no
longer have of coming-of-age rituals for
men because What that particular kid
represents is the unchanneled male
aggression yeah so he's got it he's
usually one of the best players on the
team but he's erratic bad home life
nobody is shaping him nobody's taking
that energy and saying you need to be
able to control this and that this is
where I really fall on the whole idea of
toxic masculinity is that masculinity is
not toxic in and of itself not by a long
shot but aggression can be wielded
poorly in which case it would look toxic
or you can not understand yourself and
so you're lashing out your emotions
control you rather than you controlling
your emotions and so all of that then
can lead to some very dark things but
like in Mighty Ducks if you can have
traditionally an older male figure who
has learned to harness their aggression
uh into something especially in a team
sport where now you're also elevating
your team there's a level of competition
so sort of combat adjacent and so it's
tapping into all the things that young
boys are already going to be feeling but
you're showing them this is how you
direct that energy into something
positive something that serves the group
you have to subordinate the sort of
initial like
um this is my sort of emotional feeling
and even though I don't remember Mighty
Ducks well enough I'm going to imagine
there was a moment where they would show
the kid with unchecked aggression gets
in a fight whatever gets ejected from
the game right when they need them and
they end up losing yeah and then in the
final game uh he gets provoked in the
same way shows restraint controls his
emotion but then shows his competence
and his toughness or whatever to you
know get the winning shot yeah I think I
think even even more that I think in the
second movie it was not even getting the
winning shot because he was a puck hog
or whatever it was passing it back to
the other kid and then letting him take
the winning shot and it showed like the
development of yeah yeah I feel like
when I when you now that we've just had
this conversation when I think of a lot
of the red pill spaces a lot of the
people that I know personally they feel
like like the kid at the beginning of
the movie where they have amazing
potential they're really good at some of
the things they do they're funny they're
entertaining but they haven't found a
way to like positively channel that
energy right like men are very strong in
a lot of different ways and influence
and power and just the the presence they
willed and wielded responsibly it's like
the coolest most awesome thing in the
world and then wielded irresponsibly
it's people I guess screaming at each
other on camera trafficking people and
telling you that wealth in casinos and
all this stuff are the most yeah yeah
so it's interesting I am I know
sometimes people refer to you as the
Elder Statesman of streaming which is
hilarious to me as you are so much
younger than I am sure but when I look
at the red pill Community
um and I admittedly don't know it well
not like you but it it does bring out a
paternal side of me so I know you've
debated or at least done commentary on
just pearly things
she made my radar a while ago and she
really triggers like this paternal thing
in me so I'll I'll Tweet back at her so
she'll put something crazy like divorce
should be illegal every two hours yeah
yeah and I'm just like okay look I get
the energy I understand what you're
trying to accomplish but may I like open
your mind to that and so there is there
I want to engage more with that
community in a way to be like hey there
is a vision on the other side of this
coming from somebody I've had all the
the success that you guys are aiming for
I used to be terrible with women I could
not get laid I solved that problem then
I was [ __ ] broke I did not know how
to make money I solved that problem uh
and so all the trappings and I never
Market myself around like private jets
and big house and all that like I
to your earlier point it's a Faustian
bargain so I I have long believed you
want to add value to people in the way
that
um if you have a product is how I'm
normally explaining it you want to add
free value in the way that you're going
to add your paid value so you don't ever
want to cause that bait and switch it's
like I want to paint the the real life
that I live as the thing that you should
be aspiring towards including the moment
when I went from a normal amount of
money to because we sold a piece of the
company so it's literally instantaneous
so you go from man I hope one day I'm
rich I hope I hope I hope I hope I hope
and then boom in in a 60 second span you
suddenly are wealthy and I remember
being like oh wow all of my insecurities
are still present yeah and so it was
like this really big wake-up call of
like okay cool lesson learned got it I
know that chasing money is never going
to be the thing because what really
matters is how I feel about myself when
I'm by myself and so it's like I I was
really freaked out when there was no red
pill and it was just all sort of men are
bad that I was like okay that's a
disaster waiting to happen and I think
that there are really bad problems that
I think are still on the horizon that
men have been if you look at just
participation in education higher
education something very bad is
happening women are thriving and men are
tanking was the face that I've misread
data or no you're you're right it's
really bad not only is it bad in that
like um it's I don't want to say sexist
but like there was a huge push for women
to perform better in school which by the
way everything about that is really
funny because I think nobody wants to
admit but I think for a long time people
everybody just kind of assumed that like
women are just kind of dumb compared to
men and they can't really they're never
really going to be competitive of that
environment but then as more research
comes out it's really funny because it's
like [ __ ] actually women might actually
be better suited towards classes because
guys like to go like are a little bit
more physically tuned we want to like
run around and do stuff maybe women are
better students than men but we've gone
down that path and we've and women are
like destroying men in college
achievement now but there's a lot of the
old kind of I'll say sexist expectations
of society when kovid rolled around and
people needed to stay at home and work
more it was the men that typically did
it so more men drove out of school than
women so during covet it got even more
exaggerated and socially we are
absolutely not in an area where we can
begin to have the conversation of like
maybe we need to like have some
affirmative action for men getting back
into school that conversation is not
going to happen for at least 10 years
because there's just no way people look
at you crazy so
um yeah that's that's that's kind of
scary
the direction that we're headed at there
you can't one thing that people on the
left have a really hard time doing
um have you ever heard about Jordan
Peterson talk about integrating Your
Shadow yes yeah so this is something
um I learned is a really early age for
some reason I'm so happy I did but like
sometimes you can have a negative
personality trait and your immediate
reaction is you just want to not do that
thing ever okay I need to get rid of
that completely but the problem is is uh
you mentioned earlier you said a phrase
that I say a lot I'm trying to remember
what it was exactly but like you don't
want to completely get rid of a thing
you want to be able to capitalize on the
positives while down playing the
negative or not downplaying but like
reducing the negatives as much as
possible and people don't ever seem
capable of doing that so you have these
issues relating to like masculinity
that's toxic absolutely and we need to
like deal with those things but instead
of like dealing with them and kind of
capitalizing the positive aspects it's
like all of it is trash throw it out we
need to feminize everybody blah blah I
know that's not exactly what it is but
that's what it feels like sometimes I
think a lot of men feel that way and
it's so hard for people to just be like
okay hold on there's not everything here
is bad like we like draw a circle around
like what's good and try to like Salvage
that and then maybe like reduce some of
the the worse off things it's like
nobody can do that it drives me [ __ ]
crazy one of the I tell this like
defining yourself in like the reaction
or as a reactionary to whatever
particular thing you don't like you
define yourself as the opposition this
is so dumb it's interesting uh I agree
that doesn't make any sense it touches
on something though that I think is
really important so I am a big believer
that uh whether you're talking about
right or left male or female
the reason that humans have done so well
is that we have those polarities and
it's the tension between the two that
create a functioning society and what
worries me is that I think a big part of
modern culture is that we have created a
sense of it should be one or the other
like I I will just tell you right now
from uh whether we're talking about
right or left I I think we need both you
have to have both and you you should
actively be terrified if you yourself
ever have the impulse to get rid of the
other side because I think uh and I
suppose I should have set this up my
audience would be very familiar with
this but
um I I just come from the the one of the
base beliefs for me that make up my
entire world view is that you're having
a biological experience and you cannot
accurately predict your the outcome of
your behaviors until you understand your
product of evolution and that you're
part of your moods are determined by
these microbes that live in your Digest
subtract they respond to the things that
you eat part of your energy all of your
energy level is these little organelles
that don't even have your same DNA that
live inside of your cells and you're
just you're so influenced by your
biology in ways that people can't even
imagine and so you you have to
understand okay you're having this
biological experience if you're a social
creature uh evolution is is blind
watchmaker it's not thinking I'm going
to present it as if it were thinking
it's not but this is how it feels uh
okay I have to get these people to
cooperate flexibly in really large
numbers
if I let everybody so the left would be
compassion nobody left behind and then
the right would be personal
responsibility pick yourself up by your
bootstraps gross generalizations but it
gets us in ballparks and so if we just
because to me as somebody who naturally
leans left when I hear that I'm like oh
word yeah don't leave anybody behind
it's amazing that feels good to me and
the problem is that it doesn't work and
you get what will round to it's a very
complicated issue but we'll round it to
the freeloader problem once people
realize oh nobody left behind word go
hunt for me just bring me some back and
then people start to get pissed like
what the [ __ ] so that Community is going
to implode unless there's a
countervailing force which is the right
which is no hold on like if we're all
going to starve we need to go out hunt
we have to get good at hunting we can't
make excuses we just have to go do this
and so you need both in my estimation
and the second that you no longer want
the friction between the two you have a
problem so now if you apply this to male
and female the second you say one is bad
and you want to get rid of it and we
want to feminize men which is what I
feel like we've been doing over the last
decade maybe more and as you do that you
you end up not getting the tension
between the two poles and you begin to
get things that become pathological
because I think it's pathology on both
sides I think if everything goes hyper
feminine you get pathology if everything
goes hyper masculine you get pathology
and but it's it's really hard for people
to say oh I act I I want to be kept in
check you can reboot your life your
health even your career anything you
want all you need is discipline I can
teach you the tactics that I learned
while growing a billion dollar business
that will allow you to see your goals
through whether you want better health
stronger relationships a more successful
career any of that is possible with the
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Theory University join the thousands of
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amazing things tap now for a free trial
and get started today
what I want to know is what do you think
it says about modern civilization that
or modern culture that Andrew Tate has
become a target for a lot of young men
to aim to be like I think that there are
kind of these empty
buckets in your head that need to be
filled with things so that might be
parents it might be school it might be
media and entertainment it might be
sports like there are these kind of like
really fundamental things that every
person needs and role models and people
telling you how to live your life and
what to do is also probably an important
thing for most people I think that in
the push to kind of like Elevate women
and minorities and all of these other
types of people in society that
historically didn't have the best
representation I think we've kind of
made the mistake of turning like white
people young men into like the enemy
because they had the stage for so long
two is that he displays a lot of the
stereotypical markers for success for
men girls cars Money travel which is
cool I think that's probably why people
look to them as far as like any charges
um
and some somebody emailed me a paper
recently I just read and it had to do
with the difference between epistemic
Bubbles and Echo Chambers and this paper
goes on to basically say that like an
epistemic bubble is you happen to live
in a certain area and you only hear
voices that agree with you and you kind
of develop a Viewpoint that way and the
way you deal with those people you're
different than people who live in the
Echo chamber and an echo chamber is
different than an epistemic bubble
because in an echo chamber you don't
just have voices that agree with you you
actively try to discredit voices that
disagree with you when you're in an
epistemic bubble sometimes showing
somebody another point of view can like
open their eyes and broaden their
perspective you know like hey did you
know that white people feel this way
black people feel this way women feel
this way right they're like oh I didn't
consider that before so people in an
epistemic bubble can be opened people in
Echo Chambers are harder because
sometimes providing a contrary point of
view reinforces the primary belief so
when you ask me you know for Andrew Tate
is getting locked up or arrested does
that help or hurt them personally I tend
to believe that a lot of those people
live in the Echo chamber because there
are actively discrediting outside voices
so when they're getting attacked from
the outside that reinforces the belief
that they have that it's actually
probably good it makes sense he is being
arrested all these charges are fake
everybody's after them the Matrix is
attacking them because they're like such
truth Sarah so I think with their core
fans I think the way that a lot of
controversy works is the amount of fans
you have will start to narrow but the
core fans become more and more
um like obsessed or invested like I
would say similarly for like Donald
Trump and the indictments every time
like a new thing comes out I think he
loses a few fans where people like this
is too much but the core fans that are
still supporting are like this is even
better than before I'm glad he's you
know he should be doing these things
like stick it to the guy I'm a huge
liberal very much establishment should I
love all of that but
um for unironically I am I super am um
we can fight over the FDA I didn't cover
CDC I'll defend all of it okay but um
one of the good critiques I think of
liberalism liberalism sold this idea to
everybody that you can be whatever
individual you want to pursue any kind
of lifestyle you want irrespective of
the roles prior stained by Society or
church or whatever on you which to some
extent I think has been a great success
so like I would point to women right
they have reproductive control and they
have the ability to work right which are
women are pursuing those lives they're
doing things I never could historically
like that's cool
in some ways though there is a trade
that we made where we traded away
probably too much community in exchange
for the individuality thing and
individuality is cool and awesome but I
think as people we probably have a need
one of those buckets in our head has to
be filled with something greater than
yourself I think you have to live for
something that's a little bit more than
you it could be family it could be a
church it could be a community Society
whatever it has to be something greater
than you and trading away that too much
I think is kind of in a very very
roundabout way has led to this kind of
super atomization where everybody's like
in their house they work in their
cubicle they go home they get on Discord
they play a game they go to sleep
they're making 120 000 a year they don't
have any partners and they're [ __ ]
miserable but they don't know why
because they've hit like all the liberal
markers for Success good education good
job making money has an apartment yeah
so I think that um a lot of these kind
of new movements popping up I think are
in a response to that sort of like
spiritual destitution but then my
critique was that a lot of them in a
roundabout way kind of face the same
Dragon you know it's very interesting so
I'm going to restate what I think you
just said before if I'm on track so you
have
you have a vision that the liberal
um mind I don't know if the right way to
the the liberal Vision anyway when I say
liberal here I'm sorry I mean it in like
the international like capital L liberal
like the individualists like
conservatives and liberals in the United
States would both be like capital L
liberals they're for like individual
rights individual pursuit of you know
what makes you happy and everything is
what I mean yeah right so in in that
narrative becoming dominant people
pursued that they atomize themselves I
think at the individual level they
pursue all the things that are painted
for them but that ends up creating a
either creating a vacuum hole in their
life or it stops the normal mechanisms
that would fill that hole from filling
it
um is that accurate so far yeah okay so
that makes a lot of sense to me so one
of the questions that that I want to ask
you specifically is somebody that
debates a lot is when I A lot of times
I'll be watching a debate and in
fairness to you you're the only person I
ever see that tries to ground a debate
like here are the the terms here's what
we're trying to accomplish but I think
there's an even more meta thing here
which I think what you're saying speaks
to which is you need to know what your
North Star is so as an entrepreneur you
always have to know what goal am I
trying to accomplish so that you can get
real world feedback so I try a thing
okay I'm gonna pursue
um getting a good job getting an
education doing the things that I love
me me pursue that
and if the markers of success are like
what you were if we're tying this back
to the Tate Brothers if the markers of
success are women cars money houses
girls travel Jets whatever your kpis are
going to be your bank account increasing
yeah exactly and so it may not have
anything to do with what I'll call The
evolutionary algorithm that's running in
your mind which tells you to in my
estimation seek fulfillment which is a
completely different game and so if you
don't know what your North Star is you
get very confused when you win the game
and don't feel the way that you thought
you were going to feel but you never
really pulled out into the light to say
oh what I'm actually optimizing for is a
feeling so that to me feels like the the
structure that's needed in a debate
would be like I would need everybody to
agree first and foremost what are we
trying to accomplish like as we debate
this point there is some overarching
thing so as you move through life as you
evaluate a stance on something which you
really are one of the most clear-headed
thinkers I've encountered uh in your
genre of debate which
it actually is saying a lot it's you're
that far ahead of most of the people
that are just bickering to bicker but
what what is the most meta thing that
you're aiming at
the the most the most Meta Meta Meta
Meta Meta thing if we round everything
out
um in terms of like moral philosophy uh
there's like a couple of like very
fundamental beliefs I have one is that
uh epistemically metaphysically I exist
I perceive things but whatever blah blah
um I exist an individual there's some
amount of like things that make me happy
that satisfy me
um and then there are other people in
the world that have a 99 shared
foundation in terms of like having
similar preferences so we all want to
have food shelter clothing families
friends
um that's one aspect and then a second
aspect is I think when humans
collaborate with each other they create
value right so if you have like 10
happiness units on your own and this guy
has 10 happiness units when you come
together you've created more than 20
you're at like 50 to 100 right that um
the the collection of human society is
greater than the sum of all of its parts
or something abstract that's like
created there so starting from that kind
of like Foundation you can kind of like
build out the site idea of like this
rosian sense of like justice and these
like social contracts where the goal I
think for any successful Society should
be to make it so you enable as many
people to seek fulfillment or happiness
or success as possible and that's kind
of how I Orient myself around like my
social or political positions that's on
the like the broadest like medicines
yeah I have a hypothesis and my
hypothesis is that there's only one
thing any human being should ever aim at
at the individual level at the
collective level period end of story
because of again going back to just
there's an evolutionary algorithm that I
believe is running in people's brains
you can say it was handed to you by God
or millions of years of evolution
however you want to look at it but for
the human animal which is a social
creature uh and the thing that has made
us the most dominant apex predator of
the world has ever seen ironically is
our ability to flexibly cooperate and
when you look at okay what would need to
be true given that nature only has two
levers Pleasure and Pain there end up
just being certain things that are true
about the way that our brain operates so
I I will say that I think the ultimate
North Star of everything everything uh
is human flourishing then if you were
going to say okay that's really vague
Define flourishing I would say there is
one neurochemical state that is the
closest thing to uh stable what I think
people would call happiness but I think
happiness is the wrong word because it's
so transient and that would be like that
yeah so now then I break down I think
that there's a recipe for fulfillment
which is that you have to work really
hard that that's like a key thing just
you have to work really hard or it won't
work so you have to work really hard to
gain a set of skills that matter to you
so it's exciting for you just to get
good at that thing so for you whether
it's music or debating whatever like you
had to work hard had to be something
that you cared about and it has to
elevate you and other people and if you
do that thing that that sense of
fulfillment Will Survive even something
like grief whereas happiness doesn't
survive grief and so as I like see
people arguing I'm just like okay well
we have a mechanism by which we can
determine which of these paths is really
going to work which is one we have to be
willing to encounter reality so we have
to get out of the theoretical and into
okay you ran that trial now look at the
real world results did it increase human
flourishing or decrease human
flourishing and then
you know you tweak the the tests that
you run until you get to something
that's more and more high functioning
but I often find that people end up
debating at The Ledger level right so
did it make more money less money
whatever and if that isn't the the North
Star you run into problems are you a Sam
Harris fan
I I have learned many things from Sam
Harris I would say I recently
disagree a bit with some of the things
that he's focused on but I haven't gone
into researching him in years okay
gotcha the human flourishing thing
reminds me of his moral landscape yes
that I would say is one thing I am
completely in line with with the idea of
making that just the north star of
reduced suffering that to me is a little
too vague also it it is a a move away
from strategy versus a move towards
um
I think I I think I largely agree with
what you say but in kind of a
meaningless sense and that I agree that
we should all pursue human flourishing
but it begs the question a bit because
it's like well if it's flourishing it's
probably good therefore we ought to
pursue it usually the nitty-gritty comes
down to what do we mean by human
flourishing that's always the tough one
when people argue because technically
like the maximum state of human
flourishing in society would probably be
giving everybody like a lethal dose of
heroin because for a brief moment in
time we would be shining brighter than
the brightest star in the galaxy and
then everybody would die but um but then
that makes an assumption that that is so
cognitively jarring for me it makes me
realize I have some other program
running in my mind so uh clearly for me
though this is unexplored I have a
longevity bias
so anything that that even if you sort
of gave me Peak a motion from a
neurochemical manipulation standpoint
certainly if it breaks longevity I would
automatically reject it out of hand
which is interesting and I bet you
wouldn't out of hand I because I bet I'm
sure if you're you're if you're a big
longevity guy I'm sure you've heard of
the term Health span right I'm sure that
there's probably some calculation where
you wouldn't trade some amount of Health
span for lifespan yeah but you'd have to
now we get into thought experiments
which may or may not be useful but for
that the thought experiment would need
to be if I knew there was no hope
whatsoever of ever getting better yeah
then immediately I click over into what
are we doing here I watch my cousin die
of cancer and I was just like what are
you doing at the end there was he
couldn't be comfortable the only time he
was he mildly comfortable is when he was
sleeping he was constantly gasping for
error I was just like what the [ __ ] like
you're never going home you know that
right like this is a one-way Street
medicine is not going to change so
radically you're not going to wake up
tomorrow and this is going to be cured
so if it were me at that point I for
sure would have tapped out
but if you told me hey if you just make
it another three years I know it's
grueling but if you can just make it
another three years I would want to so I
there becomes a point where I would
sacrifice yeah for sure yeah but I'm
yeah I'm saying to some extent though
there was a really interesting there was
a guy that um I always say I feel like
you can learn you can learn at least one
thing from anybody and there was a guy
that I was arguing with a long time ago
about investing and it wasn't like the
brightest cookie in the pack of cookies
but
um the uh I guess I'm not the the best
cookie on the packages um he we were
arguing about like investing and he this
is a guy he was a
um I think he was a streamer and he made
a lot of money but he spent it like
immediately and my money goes my bank
account to my Vanguard account to an ETF
all of it okay just investing everything
401K Ira because I want to be able to
retire when I get banned from everything
right
um and I and I remember this guy is like
oh yeah I don't buy anything like I try
to save up enough for taxes hopefully
I've got enough I'm like why would you
waste all of your money you're gonna be
[ __ ] retirement and he said something
that was so profoundly stupid and just
stunned me and I actually stuck with me
for a long time and he's like why would
I want to save up all my money so I can
like have fun when I'm 40 and 50. when I
kind of fun now when I'm 20 and 30. I
had no response and I still don't I'm
like it's kind of a good point
um there is like a moderating force or
there needs to be some balance because
like would it be worth it is it called
um you've heard of fire I'm sure right
yeah yeah for people that obsess about
trying to retire at 35 is that worth
trading your whole 20s and early 30s to
hit that early retirement and now you're
ready to like kind of like party and
have fun but you're also 35 and it's
like everything's a little bit slower
and you've got all your friends that
have all these stories and stuff from
their 20s and they're not going to be as
financially independent as you but um
yeah it was just it was such a statement
that just seemed on its face like so
stupid and I was like hmm maybe you know
I'm not sure I think about this a lot as
we were talking about before we started
rolling I've decided not to have kids
but I really had to think about in each
different phase of my life I will have a
different frame of reference so when I'm
80 I will for sure be very traumatized
that I didn't have kids because you want
to be surrounded by a sense of like
there's something living beyond me
somebody to love you back you know I
mean God forbid my wife dies let's say
many of my friends have died and the
normal anchor that you would have and of
course it can be guaranteed but the
normal anchor that you would have would
be the love of your kids and so I'm
foregoing that and so I really had to
step into the different phases of my
life try to project as much as I can
what my frame of reference will be how
I'll think about the world and I thought
oh by the time I'm 80 for sure for sure
I'm going to regret not having kids but
I can deal with things I can put things
in place whether it's mentoring people
or I mean if I can make my company
successful for that long then certainly
having a team that's counting on me like
that kind of stuff really means a lot to
me but I think you really do have to be
be able to step into that and and for
people that have never heard me talk
about frame of reference before so I
think frame of reference determines your
entire life and your frame of reference
is the Warped fun house Mirror by which
you see yourself in the world it is
Warped it does not represent reality but
it is the the set of beliefs values that
you carry choices that you've made about
what to believe about yourself what to
believe about the world and It
ultimately does change what you see when
you look out at the world and I don't
think people understand how malleable
their perspective really is they think
that their frame of reference is simply
objective truth and they don't realize
how distorted all of our perceptions
really are yeah and so
um when I think about that and looking
at my life like whether should I be
saving that money
uh I've gone through that phase and it
was really fun and I gamified saving
money the way that I now gamify building
a business and so I was really having a
good time penny pinching saving my money
like really trying to grow things that
way
um and so it really comes down to can
you get the dopamine it's everything is
neurochemistry right and so are you able
to through fire or whatever manipulate
your neurochemistry so that you can get
the result that you want and going back
to the red pill Community the thing that
I worry about is that
they have the wrong frame of reference
and so their frame of reference that
they're living in they look at somebody
that has money and girls and they say oh
my God that is so cool and I admire that
person so much and if I had those things
I would admire myself it's not even that
conscious they just look at ah it's
[ __ ] cool yeah but what's really
going on is that that sense of oh if I
have that I will finally like myself in
the way that I like them and then they
get those things and realize this didn't
touch any of my insecurities and so the
frame of reference they expect to get
upon having those things is not the
frame of reference that they actually
get and it becomes so disillusioning
that it can be very very disheartening
what you're describing to me sounds like
a little bit like first principles for a
business that like you have like a this
is your mission statement this is what
you're oriented towards and everything
is heading in that direction I think
ideally if you do have that end goal in
mind every part of the journey even the
parts that have friction should be
somewhat fulfilling right we were kind
of joking earlier about
um before the camera we're talking about
like running and going to the gym or
whatever but I go to the gym it doesn't
necessarily feel good in a sense of like
oh wow I'm glad I moved stuff around but
it feels good to make progress and it
feels good to know that I did it right
like something I'm sure everybody knows
this by now that like sometimes there
are days where you don't want to go to
the gym and it kind of sucks and you do
it anyway there has never been a single
time ever where you didn't really want
to go and then you went and then
afterwards you were like man I really
shouldn't have gone to the gym I should
have just stayed home you always feel
good that you did it right because
you're building towards something but um
similar to the analogy that I used
before that deal with the devil you
can't build towards like massive wealth
getting the girls and all these things
and build and build to build a build and
then once you've got that flip a switch
and be like okay well now I want like
fulfillment and confidence and
self-esteem because it's impossible to
convince anybody after otherwise but
like living in this world now and being
around like so many millionaires so many
incredibly beautiful people men and
women it would blow people's minds how
much insecurity there is here like it's
actually unbelievable like I will see
people that are like Greek gods in terms
of like attractiveness that think they
have to like spend 12 it's on facetune
with every [ __ ] picture on their
Instagram like make it look good or
people that think they're fat or people
that just like feel insecure about like
the company around them or whatever and
on paper their life should be perfect
but
like fulfillment and happiness don't
happen on accident there's like a
deliberate process that you have to do
to build these things out and it's never
just going to happen because you happen
to chase something else it's not like
once you have five million in the bank
oh my God I just got so much
self-confidence like it just doesn't
work that way right like if you're not
confident when you're broke you're not
gonna be confident when you're rich you
know you might feel some sort of like
false sense of confidence but it's a lot
different right I always tell people
when they come onto my stream it's
always funny somebody will say something
like oh like I'm so happy like uh you're
the comments you're separate about me
were like so good and I'm like that's
the worst thing in the world trouble
because if you like the comments when
they're good you're gonna hate yourself
when they're bad you have to exist like
independent of it and build like out on
something different yeah but it's really
hard to communicate to other people
agreed
so going back if the way that the Tate
Brothers If the message that they put
out the and and do you consider them a
good representative of the red pill
community
um The Red Pill committee is so
fractured right now it's hard to say
like the red pill Community I think
still tries to take ownership of Andrew
and Tristan but Andrew and Tristan are
desperately trying to
um uh not pardon themselves uh distance
themselves from the red pill Community
like they literally tweet out like red
pill guys are goofy I don't associate us
with that Movement Like interesting yeah
what's the upon what line do they
differentiate themselves
um
there's like a
red pill communities tried to
incorporate a lot of like tradcon ideas
but in some ways they're the least
traditional conservative concerns so
like the idea that like your goal is to
find a woman like these are tradcon
ideas I want to find a woman with a low
body count where I'm the leader of the
relationship and the head of the
household and I'm the Man in the
relationship that's like tradcon got it
but red pill is also I need to [ __ ] 50
women by the time I'm 35. um I need to
have three or four girlfriends at once I
need to ignore my main girlfriend so
that she still likes me and I need to
constantly do things to increase my
wealth or whatever because that's like
the most important thing at the end of
the day and maybe I need to get a
vasectomy when I'm 20 so I don't
accidentally have children right like
that's like red pill so obviously
there's a lot of conflict in these two
worlds and it's been super fascinating
watching like Ben Shapiro and Matt Walsh
fight with like uh fresh and fit like
Myron and um
uh Walter uh fresh and fit
um yeah so the the worlds have like
divided quite a bit over the past like
year like they came crashing together
and now they're like flying apart
um
I don't know where
I don't know exactly where Andrew and
Tristan are trying to end up it's hard
to know because there's a lot of media
strategy that's probably being employed
right now like they're trying to talk a
lot about their case so they're trying
to win in the public court of opinion I
don't know if maybe in Romania there's
like a gag order once the trial starts
so they're trying to get everything out
right now I have no idea but yeah so I
don't know exactly like when I'm looking
at them I'm seeing like a media Empire
with a guy that is like looking down the
barrel of a potential big conviction for
trafficking so their stuff is probably
very strategic in terms of what they're
trying to do I don't know if it's like
this is just red pill or whatever these
are people that are trying to yeah
maneuver in some kind of intelligent way
to save themselves or their careers and
how do you think about that it's pretty
dark right so uh you have said publicly
that you think that they're guilty
assuming everything they've said in
their videos is true absolutely but
maybe he might be lying in his videos or
hyping stuff up maybe by playing a
character or whatever possibly but he
plays it exceedingly well like he
literally describes everything you need
to do to be a pimp everything you need
to do to trap girls everything you need
to do to steal money from their taxes
everything you need to do to get this
yeah so I mean yeah but again it could
be it could be false like I've said it
I've said it before I'll say it again a
million times should wait for them to go
to court wait for the prosecution to
present their evidence Let them fight it
and see what happens yeah you can reboot
your life your health even your career
anything you want all you need is
discipline I can teach you the tactics
that I learned while growing a billion
dollar business that will allow you to
see your goals through whether you want
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today
do you play video games yes but only one
what ironically Destiny oh that is my
game I'm obsessed dude I love it so much
do you ever hear of or you ever play a
game called Eve online I know it well
but I've never played it no well okay
um there's some there's a lot of
leadership stuff in leading lots of
people even in games it carries over to
real life which is really funny like in
one-to-one ways you learn things about
leading in games that carry over to real
life Leadership and um something I
learned that was like really important
to me somebody else brought this concept
that my realized it's really important
sometimes people try to think of like
new doctrines for our fleets to go for
so different fits for the ships
different types of ships different ammo
or whatever right and we'd get a couple
people together and we'd decide on a
Doctrine and we do things and they're
fun but sometimes we'd Miss stuff or
whatever something that I learned about
like halfway through my career another
person told me this is any time you want
to make a big decision involving the
entire Corporation it's really important
to appoint a devil's advocate you have
to have somebody there that's advocating
against it even if you're ultimately
going to choose this yeah because that
the the something as a there about the
tension that will keep you a little bit
more grounded otherwise
um and that that yeah that that tension
is really really really important it's
really important so in business they
would call that red team which I think
is a term they stole from the military
so I have people what I tell people on
my team is okay what you want to do
don't try to bend everybody to be like
you so I'm a certain way I'm the
Visionary leader okay so I'm going to be
prone to excitement into Rose Colored
Glasses this is all going to work it's
going to be amazing and there are other
people on the team that are like me now
when an idea is fragile I'm going to go
to the people that are like me and I'm
going to be like yo I have this idea
it's so cool and it won't survive
negativity it's just I don't quite know
how it's going to work yet and so if
people [ __ ] on it then I'm like and I'll
lose my own excitement for it so in the
beginning I go find the people that are
going to be like oh my God that's
amazing and they see what I see then
when we're like hey this might actually
be real then you go find the people that
are uh By Nature they see problems and
so it's normally you're going to go to
somebody in operations now I'm thankful
that my business partner is my wife
she's operation nationally minded so
when something needs to be assailed from
just like a logistical standpoint it's
not like she's playing a role or trying
to ruin it that's just how she sees the
world and so she'll go and be like Oh
but what about this and how are you
going to pull that off and what's that
going to cost right and so then you
start going okay cool I see the problems
but if you don't if you're not checking
yourself against reality then you
devolve into madness I agree and so
bringing it back to to what I hope these
young men will begin to realize
you have to check your strategies
against reality and I think anybody in
the red pill Community you're going to
get slapped around by reality and I
think you already nailed exactly what
that's going to be which is you're going
to find you have a hole in your heart
and it never gets filled or it's created
by the way you act I actually haven't
thought enough about it to know if it's
a hole that permanently exists and your
job is to fill it or if it's something
that arises out of lack I I don't I
think there's probably like naturally in
the human mind we have a lot of there's
a name I'm like I'm trying to think of I
should now this for my carpet cleaning
days because there are these little like
octets or dosets or things that like get
filled with dye I know it was true for
carbon fiber there are these little
things these little holes that get
filled I think naturally we have some of
these in our head that need to be filled
so like socialization I'm pretty sure is
one of the most important aspects even
if our physical health is like
socializing with other people right
that's like a natural thing that exists
and it's never going to go away like if
you live as a Hermit well maybe in the
most extreme examples for most people
that won't happen yeah
um
yeah there's
one of the difficulties I think when it
comes to
red pill stuff or people selling a
certain idea is it's really hard to sell
an idea of internal like fulfillment or
happiness I'll say fulfillment it's hard
to tell people how important that is
when it's so hard to show
versus the other guys that have a lot of
things to show like if you put me in a
room with like any red pill guy I would
bet my whole life that I know I'm more
confident than every single one of these
people but to a lot of people they would
look at me and they would go you're
coping you're 100 coping right but it's
because like on a lot of these guys like
their Lifestyles they try to live it
like as flashy as possible there was a
guy that I [ __ ] argued with a huge
phony fraud guy this guy [ __ ] rents a
Ferrari to drive to podcasts in Miami
okay uh his name was MLD uh I saw some
of the friction between you guys [ __ ]
not friction that guy is completely
obliterated okay he got lit on fire and
[ __ ] tossed into the wind like the
[ __ ] loser he is but um this guy he
like rents Ferraris to like drive to
podcasts it's like for who right like I
still drive a forty thousand dollar car
yes yeah or it might have even been a
Lamborghini actually it might have been
a Lambo that he rented um
and it's like but like how do you sell
that idea of like listen like being
confident in yourself like even when I'm
saying it it sounds [ __ ] lame right
it only doesn't to me because I've lived
my life and I know that is my most
important asset
um
but yeah I don't know how to sell that
to people I'm not sure like because it
doesn't look cool it doesn't look like
oh like I woke up today and there's like
another three YouTubers just made hit
pieces on me but you know I don't care
about it that much like I know when
people in my industry know like that's a
really good ability to have but for like
most people it's like I think I'd rather
just have the Bugatti and I'll have like
the lack of self-esteem like I think
that's what most people say so it's
interesting so I thought a lot about
this problem and uh it it is brutal that
even I who knew better still had to
chase money to realize that money it
isn't that money can't buy happiness and
this is where I think some of these
phrases go wrong it's that money can't
buy yourself respect sure and what
people don't understand that they're
actually chasing is self-respect and at
the end of the day for anybody listening
I will just tell you right now the only
thing that matters is how you feel about
yourself when you're by yourself and all
the amazing sex all the money all the
cars like it just can't touch that thing
and so if if you're getting all the
boxes checked but you hate yourself it
it just feels really really horrible so
while I agree with you that this is a
very hard thing to Market
it's at least an easy thing to explain
and so well but the problem that you run
into is it's I feel like I've seen a
meme like this where it's like guy that
[ __ ] 100 chicks as casual sex isn't
fulfilling guy that's worth nine figures
says money can't buy happiness guy that
lives in Hollywood Hill says don't need
a big help right like it's hard because
it's like if I were to go back in time
and try to respond to my 18 year old
self like I don't know if I could do it
but now that I've lived it I can so it's
almost like is there a way to
communicate at least for me maybe I'm
dumb in some ways I learned so well
through experience like that seems to be
the only way that I learned some
problems so how do you communicate that
idea like if you're talking to a guy
that's you know 32 years old and he had
sex with one girl to give him a hand job
in high school and you [ __ ] like 100
chicks you're like listen up dude I'm
gonna be honest casual sex is not all
that it's like made up to me I promise
like that guy is never gonna listen to
you he's like [ __ ] you how about I [ __ ]
100 girls then I'll decide that it's not
worth it for me you know yes it's so
hard to communicate which is what you're
gonna do and I think I think so do you
know the Cassandra complex I've probably
heard about it before Oh Brother you're
gonna love this so as a parent you're
gonna be like oh yes so I am convinced
Greek mythology okay I am convinced that
this was written by somebody trying to
capture what it means to be a parent
okay and so the Cassandra thing was she
slept with the god or whatever and which
you're you know mythology always means
you're going to get punished and so her
punishment was Cassandra you're going to
know the future but no one will believe
you okay and that to me is what it's
like to be a parent or what it's like
for me to really be the Elder Statesman
here talking to uh these young amazing
people out there that I know are just
trying to chase dreams and make things
happen
but here's the reality they aren't going
to believe me but I'm hopeful that if I
can get them closer to the truth that it
will it'll be a seed planted in their
mind and they'll ignore me at first but
then as like Life Starts because they're
going to encounter reality and then
reality is going to prove me right yeah
I just think that most people stop at
money can't buy you happiness but what
they don't say which I would like to
tell people right now is the right
question to ask is why does the guy who
says that money isn't a big deal is
saying it from The Beverly Hills mansion
and the answer is because money's
powerful money's more powerful than you
think it just isn't what you've been
told and so the thing you want money to
do which is make you feel like you feel
about that rich person that you're
admiring you want to feel that way about
yourself money won't do that for you but
money is the great facilitator and
people will chase it until the end of
time money has let me do things that I
would not have been able to do without
it it is worth worth pursuing it is
worth accumulating it is an incredibly
powerful resource but it's just a
resource so if you don't know what you
want to build with it it will be
completely meaningless and it will do
nothing and you'll buy a bunch of fancy
[ __ ] and you will be [ __ ] miserable
and really confused now I'll just say
the obvious I would much rather be sad
and Rich than sad and broke but I would
rather be happy and broke than sad and
Rich so ultimately all that matters is
your neurochemistry but that's real Fame
same thing Fame is a double-edged sword
it is not going to make you feel better
about yourself all the accolades in the
known universe will not make you like
yourself anymore but Fame is incredibly
useful and you can leverage it well if
you know what you're doing so it's like
there's a reason that people will pursue
these things and if you can have the
right sort of frame on it it won't
disappoint you because you won't expect
it to do something that it's never going
to do yeah in some ways money is is more
powerful than you think and in other
ways money is utterly hopeless to help
you with the certain things you think
yeah there's and all of it at the end of
the day they're all instruments to
hopefully affect some other type of end
but if you're just getting it hoping
that it's naturally going to make you
feel a certain way about yourself is
never going to happen the um sometimes I
wonder I worry that I'm like very poison
against wealth in some ways because of
my upbringing but like some there's a
very very Crystal Clear dichotomy I have
between my mom said on my family uh they
all came from Cuba so I've got a lot of
family in Hialeah in Miami or I used to
um and there was this crazy dichotomy
growing up where my my whole family
immediate family so all my siblings and
my parents all of them were very
obsessed with the American dream so it
was the acquisition of large houses
multiple Vehicles try to do vacations
whatever and I'm sure you've heard of
the term lifestyle creep right
so this is their money this is their
expenses you know more money more
expenses More Money More expenses so
everybody's got multiple foreclosures
multiple bankruptcies a lot of stuff
right and I remember like I've argued
with my parents my family for a long
time and it's like you guys are going to
work yourself into the grave like I
don't think this is good and it's always
like nah once we get this credit card
paid off once we get this card paid off
once we get this car paid off once we
get the house paid off once we get the
new pool like once you get this we're
gonna be able to do all these things
with the family we're gonna be able to
do all these cool things we're gonna
invite everybody over and now as I watch
my family aging my mom is in the early
mid-stages of Alzheimer's disease my
mom's little brother or older brother
and then her sister's younger brother
died in a car accident like two years
ago and like every in my aunt is like
working full-time at Home Depot with a
full 20-year NYPD retirement trying to
like hold under her house and then I
think back to
one of the most like poorest places I've
ever spent my time in was every summer I
would go to Hialeah to hang out with my
grandma and she lived in these like Row
apartments on both sides and we're
talking like every time it [ __ ]
rained like there's nothing on the floor
or on the bottom shelf because every
apartment would flood like three or four
inches and then it would stop raining
and go down like this is how they live
their life but every night somebody was
like outside barbecuing stuff black
beans and rice plantains classic Cuban
[ __ ] everybody was hanging out
everybody's laughing each other
everybody's having fun sometimes you'd
have like 10 people in one room because
the one kid had the [ __ ] Nintendo 64.
um it felt like in this weird like queer
ironic way that my wealthy family was
like trying to get enough Goods to live
the lifestyle that like the broke family
was like already living on a weekly
basis and like don't misunderstand me
all the people in the The Apartment
Townhouses the row houses I'm sure their
life would have been approved by more
money they could have bought a better
Grill they could have had a place that
didn't flood like they could have done
things but the the they were happier
um and that's just a really hard thing
for a lot of people to understand I
think that all of these like money and
all these other things
um or like you said they're instruments
to achieve something else they don't
produce happiness on their own they can
be a facilitator of happiness but it has
to be deliberate you have to like put f
effort into I got this thing now I'm
going to use this thing to make myself
happy or make other people happy but
sometimes in the pursuit of that thing
you're not even thinking of that and now
you spent so much time acquiring and
pursuing things that you don't even know
how to or you've lost the time now or
the ability to even use them in ways to
make yourself happy and it's like [ __ ]
yeah
it's brutal yeah um so that for me is
again frame of reference how are you
looking at it what do you expect it to
be have you outlined what what do you
think money is what do you think money
does for you how is it going to make you
feel all of that and if you think it's
going to allow you to buy cool things
but that's not going to make you feel
any differently about yourself or your
life cool yeah it will let you do that
and if you have something that you want
to build and that's what the money's for
that will pay off in big ways I don't
think people stop to think about it I
think they fall prey to a cool marketing
message and money is the marketing like
around somebody like an Andrew Tate with
fast cars girls private planes lots of
money big cigars etc etc
um that marketing feels so awesome it
makes them feel the way they want to
feel and then they just confuse that
it's a marketing message and not
necessarily a reality message and so
again people need to Define their North
Star and then make sure that the thing
that they're doing leads them to that
now to your earlier point though I think
most people have to learn the hard way
maybe yeah
you don't have to learn the hard way the
alternate is you have a good family that
like gives it to you at Birth and your
North Star is kind of like set and you
don't have to think about it but it
seems harder and harder I think for
people to get that right message like
right off the snow like that's an
exceedingly rare family you know
but yeah no doubt talk to me about women
so this becomes one of the ones it it
reminds me a little bit of diet so you
can't not eat so if you have a negative
relationship with food I can't tell you
to abstain and I I believe and for now
just take the default heterosexual
assumption
um
I do think that it was a very worthwhile
Endeavor for me to learn how to attract
a woman because I didn't know how to do
it and so for a very long time I could
not get into a successful relationship
which I will say this won't be
universally accepted by uh the comment
section or chat as you would say Okay
um but I would say that I'll I'll mark
that in the early days as an ability to
get laid so I knew how to befriend and I
knew how to have a meaningful emotional
exchange for the woman I did not know
how to navigate crossing the line and
being the kind of person that she would
want to sleep with which is a
um I'm not I'm not prudish about sex I
don't have like sort of a kind of what
would you call it Trad row I don't know
uh but I so I'm not somebody that's
trying to rack up like as many women as
I can but it was meaningfully meaningful
to me to have a variety
and that was a really important Arc for
me to go through of like oh now I know
how to get laid like that was really
really meaningful and that feels like a
dying art it feels like I don't know if
it's social media mixed with dating apps
whatever mixed with me too mixed with
video games and pornography like there's
that cocktail whatever that is
um
I would say I buy into the idea that
there's a mating crisis I'd love to know
if you think that we are are we in an
abnormal time right now and either way
do you see a better path that we could
be walking
as young men trying to have meaningful
relationships with women
um okay that was a lot which part of
that do you want me to go are are we are
we in the middle of the crisis we
probably are but the answer for why is
so in my opinion is so much more boring
than people make it out to be I think
that when people talk about a mating
crisis they're like we've lost the
ability for men and women to communicate
with each other and men are becoming too
feminine to get laid and microplastics
are drying up our sperm reserves and
blah blah blah I think that the actual
answer is a lot more boring and I think
the actual answer is that given the
ability to work jobs and like have
autonomy over their lives women don't
want to choose to be like locked away as
moms at like 18 19 20 years old that's a
really hard sell like if you were to
tell men that like Hey listen when you
turn 21 I need you to take like seven
years off your career building years to
just like be a father and like do that
and then maybe go back to work like like
almost no man would take that choice
like [ __ ] that this is these are the
best working years [ __ ] years every
year of my life why would I ever do that
and on behold kind of with the education
thing there's a lot of stuff that's why
I always fight when people like oh
biology men and women are different we
are different to some extent but we're
way more in we have way more in common
than we think and I think for a long
time the idea is like a woman doesn't
want to go to school doesn't want to
work a job doesn't want to have
recreational sex like women don't want
to do any of these things like that's
biologically hardwired but the reality
is if you tweak like a couple things now
listen we're like you know what I do
want to work a job I do want to travel I
do want to have freedom I do want to be
able to [ __ ] guys or not have kids so
like women are enjoying that kind of
like freedom and that's a Pandora's Box
that when you open it it's never going
back so anybody that tells you well the
solution is we need to get rid of birth
control that's dumb right so we're past
that point right so now the issue that
you're contending with is life offers
you so much fun and excitement
um at your at your fingertips very easy
to access very cool very awesome
children and a family are a lot of work
there's a lot of friction there's a lot
of friction even finding a guy or a
woman that you want to marry right then
there's even more friction about setting
up the family now there's even more
friction about maintaining the family
and doing the growth right that having
the opportunity to do that versus all of
this other Freedom it's not surprising
to me that more and more people are
opting in this direction and I'm pretty
sure that that's a pattern that every
single country in the developmental
history of the planet has followed as
your country becomes more industrialized
as women gain access to more opportunity
that the number of children plummets and
in every single industrialist country in
the world I think except for like Israel
I think every other country the birth
rate is below replacement and yeah
now the question becomes that is that
like money where there is something
really real there that you can get but
that people are framing it wrong and not
that's not leading them to happiness
because I have I have a base assumption
that
um
I think the wall as they call it where a
woman will get to let's say partner at
her Law Firm she's 39 hasn't had kids
yet and all of a sudden she's like why
am I working this hard that feels I
haven't looked at the studies or
anything but that feels intuitively
correct to me from a biological
standpoint where at some point there is
a whole there's a hole in my heart for
kids now maybe I'm a more effeminate man
I think that would be a very
um Fair characterization so I might be
more prone to that than the next guy but
I would say that as a default when I
just look at it from an evolutionary
perspective a woman is going to have
evolutionary wins at her back pushing
her to want a child I think the um so
obviously this gets hard especially more
in Evo psych territory I think the thing
you have to be careful when we say like
evolutionarily is
there might there sometimes triggers can
be there in very un obvious ways and it
might be the fact that there is not as
much an evolutionary push as we might
otherwise think so for instance like
here's a question I'm going to answer
for you because I know your answer if I
were to ask you do you think that
evolutionarily we're supposed to be
obese the answer is obviously no but
then if you look it's like well hold on
we love sugar so much why well the
reality is way back in the days of our
hunter Gathering time periods you know
eight thousand nine thousand ten
thousand BC and earlier that drive to
consume sugary things that was really
good because you don't find that many of
them in the world it is when you find it
you want to eat it and it's good your
body's gonna hold on to those calories
as well as they can but whatever but who
cares that that trigger can't possibly
do anything bad to you but you know
Evolution can't predict the future we
didn't know we would have mass carbs
farming all this stuff available to us
and now that drive gets tripped really
hard when we're provided with those
foods to eat constantly I think when it
comes to women and wanting to have
children
I don't know if you need that like
evolutionary kick at like 30 because my
guess is going to be when you go back in
time men and women you actually know
this because if you compare like wealthy
people to poor people men and women with
nothing to do will [ __ ] and make kids I
don't know if you need a push for it I
don't know if you need an evolutionary
drive for it I don't know if that's
super hardwired biology my guess is if
you go back in time like a 23 year old
woman is not like man I hope my desire
for children kicks in soon there
probably isn't much to do so they're
just [ __ ] all the time that'd be my
guess what's so that to me is the
evolutionary push sure but what I'm
saying is like when somebody is like 30
or 40 I don't know if like a woman
feeling like I don't have kids I don't
know if that's like a strong like oh my
God my biological clock ticked past 12
o'clock and now I feel bad or if it's
just like Society is like don't you want
kids shouldn't you have kids and you've
seen enough baby movies and you're like
[ __ ] I don't know what the answer is I'm
just saying I could see it being like
one way or the other like if somebody
told me that there was no internal push
to have children I I would believe it if
that was a fact I would believe it
because you probably don't need that
push because everybody's [ __ ] as soon
as they turn whatever team you're anyway
you know but I could say go either way
yeah if you look at the sex rates which
is the one sort of piece of data that I
I think I have a handle on which is that
at least leading up to covet it was
declining I've heard some conflicting
data as to whether now it's going back
up or if it's gone down more but let's
assume that it it's renormalizing but we
had like that tremendous dip and one of
the things that I think led to that
certainly is the choice there's just
more options and so to your point if
previously women were artificially kept
out of a lot of things then motherhood
was a very compelling uh thing that they
could do with their life which gave them
fulfillment and gave them a sense of
meaning and purpose and all that and so
it makes all the sense in the world that
they would pursue that but then is your
options widen especially if you feel
like oh I can wait I can wait I can wait
but then the stats and that are horrible
and it really starts declining I think
like after 30 where even though you can
conceive in your 40s now you're talking
IVF most people that's not going to work
so you you create a scenario basically
I'm going to keep seeing if I can make
this thesis work out because this feels
intuitively correct I don't have enough
data but I think it's just like money
where it is something that I get why
people pursue because you want to like
even for guys you
want to be promiscuous you want to run
around you want to not have kids you
want to play the game you want to you
know get rich have a lot of sex et
cetera et cetera but then at some point
you realize oh wait a second there's
there's a hole in my heart is how I
think about it that hasn't been filled
and so that was something I I thought a
lot about okay so that's sort of the
thesis there but I don't want to get too
far afield the the real question that I
want to ask is going back to the mating
crisis and Men how much do you think of
the
if we're saying being male typically
male is bad and it's toxic and so we're
sort of culturally beating that out of
men uh we're giving them I think they're
called sedations in researching you I
was introduced to that term I had not
heard that before uh stuff yeah porn
video games whatever things that make
them not care to pursue it
uh I'll throw in a little bit of me too
in terms of the fear of just making the
approach and looking like an [ __ ] and
getting blasted
um so you've got this cocktail of things
that makes guys more reticent to pursue
that
um do you think that that's real that we
do have that contributing to this so it
isn't just that women have additional
choices it's also that men are and I I
think this plays out twofold men don't
have as strong of an impetus to pursue
women and we're not doing anything
culturally to say hey you need to get
good at this and then two that there is
a bit of
um
if men are really failing in some of the
ways that it seems like they're failing
and hypergamy is real where women just
have a natural proclivity to date across
or up
um then it's like they need men to be
better and they need men to perform well
and to be rising at least at the same
rate that women are rising
um does that cocktail feel right or do
you think I'm off on something
um I I don't think I conceptualize all
of it in exactly the same way but
there's probably a lot of ways that I
conceptualize it would probably map on
to what you're saying
um there's a lot of thoughts that I have
um there's a lot of thoughts I have when
it comes to dating and sex that I I
almost feel like I'm on an island on
these things like it feels like at least
in like the space to talk about it I
feel like I don't hear much
um I actually thought a lot about this
because I feel like I have I feel very
comfortable around women I've always
felt comfortable like talking to women
and doing all of that and I try to think
a lot like how like where did this come
from
and I think in some ways the answer is
very Illuminating otherwise the answer
is very disappointing uh when I grew up
I had a lot of friends that were girls
and I did I think I took that for
granted growing up especially because my
high school was an all-boys high school
so I would think of anything I'm like at
a big disadvantage but um do some
incredibly random Stroke of Luck when I
was 14 15. there happened to be a girl
that lived near me and I my dad had just
moved away I wasn't old enough yet for a
driver's license even if I was I
couldn't afford a car and she ended up
being my ride to school and because I
was her ride to school I was like her
little basically like I was trapped with
her because I would go to school it was
a 30 minute 20 30 minute drive
um and then once at once she dropped me
off at school and she went to school she
went to Marion high schools in all girls
high school she would come pick me up
but she would want to hang out with her
friends and stuff so I would basically
be roped along always hanging out with
her and then like her four or five
friends and so from a very early age
like I've always just been like talking
to women interacting with women I think
I dated like three different women in
that group of friends but not because I
was like some RIS master that read like
all the perfect red pill stuff but just
because I happened to spend a lot of
time around women so it kind of made
sense what were you picking up on the
let you be successful
I I think I think it's I think it's just
an experience thing like you just like
start talking to women and it's just
like whatever you know like it's like
like how do you tremendously terrible
advice destinations the thing that I
always tell people is like that yeah
like the best time to learn how to like
deal with women is like 10 years ago
when you were in high school because
like do you deal with women like what
was the punchline is it all intuitive
for you and you literally don't know
exactly what you're doing
um in terms of like actual interactions
there's a lot of things that
um I don't know there's so many like
random little things
um here here I'll just here's a couple
that come to mind
um I drew this graph on my stream a
while ago when when people talk about
like the balance between masculinity and
femininity it's like the ultimate man is
like 100 masculine like five feminine
and the ultimate woman is like 100
feminine like five masculine in my
opinion I think the best type of people
like the best man is like 100 masculine
like 90 feminine the best woman is like
a hundred feminine like 90 masculine
when I think of like my way of like
dealing with women or if I think of like
white people are attracted to me like I
think that's because I have a very
contrasting set of characteristics like
in one sense there are some things I can
do that some people characterize as like
hyper masculine like screaming at people
online getting very animated blah blah
blah and to be able to go from doing
that to like playing a nice song on my
piano or like hugging and playing with
like your cat or dog like that contrast
and traits is I can tell when I interact
with people that that's a really big
deal for some people they really like
the aspects of me that are masculine and
they really like the aspects of me that
are feminine but when you go into like
the red pill spaces they say things like
oh like um feminine traits will turn a
woman off completely if you ever cry in
front of a woman she'll leave you
immediately and I know from I know from
personal experience like if I cry in
front of a woman she's gonna save me
forever because oh my God there's such a
special moment that like only I get to
see blah blah blah
um so that balance between like feminine
and masculine trades is really important
having like contrasting characters and
personalities
um that's like one aspect a second
aspect that I notice and this is just a
good people skill period
um this manipulation strategy is so good
it works on me even if I know somebody's
doing it everybody at the end of the day
just wants somebody to like listen to
them and understand them if you're
willing to just like sit back listen to
people ask enough questions to like let
them kind of like talk about themselves
and like you know flesh out their lives
really lend questions like how did that
make you feel for a lot of people
they've like never heard another person
genuinely interested in like asking a
question like this and it feels so good
to have somebody care about it like that
and to share those things like those are
the types of things I'm thinking about
when I'm like if I'm like trying to get
a woman like me or I'm trying to pick
somebody up or whatever these are the
stressable it's never like the red pill
like Ultra masculine games it's usually
things to do with like communication or
making somebody feel like seeing or
heard but I'll say on the back end it is
important that I have like that
masculine aspect too because I'm not
just here to be like a little sent beta
[ __ ] like I'm gonna ask you how you
genuinely feel about something and then
I might make fun of you a little bit for
it but you know I don't actually hit you
for it right like that's like the the
balance that I think of um there's
probably like other things that I play
too but like all of these things are
like people skills oh I will say this is
funny and stereotypical as it is
um I'm sure this actually had a lot of
impact on how I dealt with people Dale
Carnegie's how to win friends and
influence people so that should probably
be like a must read book for like every
single person in existence there's a lot
of really good like basic people skills
I think I learned like I think I read
that like seventh grade
um you know but what were some key
takeaways [ __ ] don't ask me that I don't
remember what I remember was I remember
reading the book and I remember trying
some of the things on people in real
life and being surprised but I don't
want to quote anything in particular
because I'm worried that it wasn't in
the book but like I remember for
instance like there were some kids I did
gymnastics growing up and I don't know
there was like a kid that like really
[ __ ] didn't like me for whatever
reason and I want to say I picked this
up it was in that book I think it had to
do with like uh if you're kind to people
if you compliment people they cannot be
mean to you it is impossible that if
somebody's treating you like [ __ ] and
you're like I'm sorry dude I legit I
[ __ ] up like you're right they can't
be mean to him it's impossible to do it
and I remember using that and I got that
kid to like me a lot
um little strategies like asking people
for help it's like the most flattering
thing in the world if you've got a
co-worker that [ __ ] hates you and
whatever and you're like Hey listen like
you're really good at this can you show
me how to do this like it just makes
people feel like so good to be like yeah
I can't help you with like you know
um yeah there was a lot of like getting
people to compete with each other yeah I
don't remember everything I just
remember reading it in in I think grade
school in high school I'm trying to
incorporate a lot of that into how I
deal with people yeah very smart now do
you uh so uh by the way for people that
don't know you
at least from what I saw online you're
in an open marriage yeah relationship
apparently to all the red pillars but
interesting okay that's a very direct
way to say it uh but so that means these
are things you're still deploying right
now so I want to understand do you
consider it
to be good at enticing a woman do you
consider it manipulation
um this is something I've thought about
for a long time so like in my early to
mid 20s I think I was pretty
manipulative in terms of like how I
approach people
um but I think I grew out of that like
any this is something that I hate saying
this is the worst thing in the world to
say that like be yourself thing but most
of the inner almost every interaction
that I'll have with a woman or a man it
stems from some genuine interest like if
I'm asking you questions about something
it's not because I'm thinking like I
know that if I can get you to talk about
yourself for like an hour that we'll be
[ __ ] later tonight like I'm not
thinking that usually it's chicks I'm
generally I'm kind of interested in like
it's hard for me to hang around people
that I don't like for an extended period
of time like you're you're getting like
30 to 60 minutes max out of me and then
I'll be like okay I'll see you later and
then we're like done forever so if I'm
asking somebody questions it's because
like there is a genuine interest there I
am remembering things that are being
said so I can make jokes or callbacks or
references later like I am keeping track
of like what's going on because I'm
generally interested in the person and
if you can communicate interest to
somebody like that feels good like is
that manipulation I mean
I I don't know I I to me manipulation
applies like some level of being
disingenuous and I'm not generally
disingenuous so yeah I've long lamented
that we need another word because my
wife and I we talk a lot about this so
we've been married for over 20 years in
fact almost 21 in a month uh and one of
the things that we've said is that we
and again we influence maybe the closer
thing but we've influenced each other a
lot and the one promise that we made to
each other very early on in the
relationship is look I'm going to back
then we would have said manipulate I'm
going to manipulate you but the only
trick that I'm going to play on you is
that I will always tell you exactly what
I'm doing sure and the reason that I'm
telling you is I don't ever want you to
feel like I'm you know doing something
behind your back or whatever yeah
exactly but at the same time I want you
to know exactly what I'm trying to get
out of this and so there's no way that I
would have become as successful as an
entrepreneur if I hadn't had my wife
um because at the beginning of our
marriage was very traditional she was
stay-at-home wife and I went out and
worked and so she was sort of
maneuvering through the world through me
and so it was like if she didn't think I
was being tough enough or asking for
enough or pushing hard enough or
whatever she in the way that only a
woman can would reward and punish you
know based on wanting me to be tougher
or more aggressive and so that ended up
being an amazing tool in my Arsenal and
so likewise if there were things that
she was doing that I didn't like
um it was reward and punish and and you
know it's put punish in air quotes but
um making sure that she really
understood what I liked and what I
didn't like and by doing that we've
really shaped each other and
all of those tools are the thing that I
had to learn to finally start getting
laid and so like you I never felt like I
was being manipulative but I knew what I
was doing
and my journey went something like this
I I was the cliche that people tried to
warn you about so I would show up on the
first day with poetry custom written for
you
oh yes and flowers and unironically P.S
and really was very confused that right
unironically P.S what's that uh just
meaning I was showing up with flowers
and poetry for my generation that was
like that even back then that was
probably pretty cringe yeah but uh it
felt right it felt like a a thing to
acknowledge that I was very excited to
be out with you that I thought a lot
about you or my like third time my third
date with my like first kind of like
real girlfriend in high school I brought
her flowers and then she dumped me and I
found out she was a lesbian so I
remember I had my cringe moment surprise
ending yeah uh so I finally after years
of this went to this guy and was like uh
what's the secret because he was very
successful with women what's the secret
he's like oh Tom you just have to treat
him like an [ __ ]
and I was like dude come on like that's
the most cliche [ __ ] ever and I've seen
him with women and he's not and so I was
like what what is he actually trying to
say
and I realized just by looking at his
behavior and saying okay he's calling it
being an [ __ ] but what is it really
because he was very charming and I
realized oh what he is is he's willing
to walk away yes holy [ __ ]
um something that I had to deal with for
so much my life and people will say this
about me constantly uh people always say
that like Destiny you're actually the
way that you interact with him in a
super red pill like you nag them all the
time you're constantly mean you're such
an [ __ ] blah blah blah blah
um I'm never I'm very very rarely mean
to somebody though and I try to
communicate this to my fan base a lot
that like if you ever see me interacting
with somebody and I'm like nagging
somebody it's always over stuff that is
like fair game to be playful about right
there's never been a girl that I've
liked and we're like joking around and
I'm like yeah that's true uh you're kind
of fat though I never do that right
never never if I'm like making fun of
things there's stuff that we know is
like kind of you know we're like we're
joking around and for a lot of women or
it seems to be the case that for a lot
of women it's really hard to find a
person that like is respectful of you
but will also give you a lot of [ __ ] but
we'll do it in kind of like a funny
playful way because it seems like you've
either got
um you can do like a liberal
conservative economy you've either got
the guy love who's like just the ultra
simp and he's like texting you like
please tell me good night tonight like
you haven't text me back right blah blah
blah or you've got the guy who's like
too far to the right who's like kind of
like funny and charming and [ __ ] but he
actually treats you like [ __ ] it doesn't
respect you at all and um something I
know I noticed this really early on
um I think in my early college days that
if I was talking to a girl and I noticed
a lot of guys do this you talk about
like oh what's your favorite band
um Third Eye Blind oh mine too uh what's
your favorite movie oh and it's like oh
mine too right you say these things that
if I was telling a girl and she says
some [ __ ] I'm like oh what's your
favorite band and she's like I really
like Linkin Park and I'm like oof
horrible horrible group of musicians as
soon as I say like their eyes will light
up and then we're like fighting over it
and that type of interaction I could
tell for the girl was the first time
that like a guy had ever said like I
think that I don't like that whatever
thing but I'm not like being here like
you're tasting music [ __ ] and you're
just right it's just like a fun thing to
fight about but um that what you talk
about a lot of people will see kind of
the ways that interact with people and
they're like oh my God like you're such
an [ __ ] I'm not I'm an incredibly
respectful person and I'm pretty sure
any girl I've ever interacted will say
as much like I'm never pushy for sex I'm
never like doing any like weird like
running game or being manipulative or
being an [ __ ] like I'm just like
playfully like messing around with
things that are fair game to mess around
with I I bring this up too because
sometimes I've gotten clips of like fans
doing things like in games or whatever
where they're interacting with people
and then I see people try to copy some
of the things but they are just being
mean right and it's really hard to
communicate with people because
sometimes my fans are things like oh
like why did you get mad when this
person said this about you but you say
this thing all the time and it's like
these are it's not the same I don't know
how to communicate that like when I'm
doing that I'm just like playing around
and everybody knows it yeah
playfulness is a big part of the game
playfulness usually comes when you have
the confidence and also that you can see
if you understand
uh what emotion you're trying to create
and you can actually create that emotion
and if you can create that emotion in a
way that keeps them a little off balance
in a way where they don't feel unsafe it
still needs to be playful
um
I'll give you an example so the first
the first
um
sort of sexually charged words I ever
said to the woman who is now my wife was
sit your ass down you're not going
anywhere sure now the number of people
that have heard me tell that story that
then tell my wife oh my God like he's
abusing you like you've got to get away
and she of course finds that hilarious
but be given the context given where we
were in our relationship she found it uh
playful and I won't say funny because
she was excited because she was
interested so that was certainly a part
of it but
when you can create a sense of like
playfulness where almost like comedy
where you say the thing that you're not
supposed to say but you do it in a way
that like lets the person laugh or be in
on it
that's good just really quick on that
there's a really good clip that a lot of
people didn't understand
um to joke about a thing you have to
have a full understanding of the thing
and that makes a joke work there's a
show on I think it was a jubilee dating
show or something and I think the girl
asked this group of guys in front of her
she was like if we had a fight like how
would you manage that in our
relationship if we had a disagreement
and one of the guys that answered a guy
who's wearing like a hoodie or whatever
and he was like his answer was like I
think the first thing I would do would I
would try to Gaslight you into thinking
it was your fault I would create an
unhealthy sense of dependence where you
constantly felt like you were chasing my
approval and I would give it to you in
Little Bits so that you became desperate
for my attention and I would have like
his whole it was like a psychopathic
answer and in the end she ended up
choosing that guy as the guy that she
liked most everyone's like oh my god
look he was a total [ __ ] and it
worked and it's like no it's because the
joke like showed you that he was aware
of all of these like toxic things but he
could joke about it but like there's
like a lot of like truth you can
communicate with humor and stuff
sometimes too
um but yeah it plays into that idea of
like being playful and sometimes even
being like being able to say something
[ __ ] I I hate this I actually hate this
conversation because like so much of
this is like a learned intuitive thing
like I don't think I could write a guide
to it but there's a way that you can
like shock somebody without actually
like
being crazy right like but it's hard to
it's hard to tell you where exactly you
draw the line and there are even there
are probably times where I've
overstepped there are times where I've
made jokes I just had an abortion debate
with like two women last night and I'm
pretty sure before the show I could tell
by the reaction that I was probably
pushing a little bit too far but like
sometimes like depending on the person
but in the context depend on the
scenario like you could push really far
with certain types of humor and it'll be
like like you said it kind of keeps them
off balance where they're like it's kind
of funny but you you yeah you can't do
it too much because sometimes you can go
straight to the like that was way too
creepy way too far and I'm completely
out of here but yeah but so it's
interesting that you say this so playing
with that you are gonna miss sometimes
absolutely but finding that edge is a
lot of fun and you will sometimes Miss
but if you can create like unexpected
moments to get a reaction like there was
a time this is after I was married so
trust me my wife knows all about this
story but I was being a wingman for a
guy and so there was a girl that he
really liked and that girl brought a
friend we were actually on a business
trip and uh we're at this Diner and I
was like definitely flirting with the
girl and I said
um
I'm gonna ask you to do something that's
surprisingly intimate are you willing to
do it she's like well no you know I mean
you got to tell me what it is before
it's like no no
I need you to say yes before I tell you
what it is okay will you do it and she's
like okay I said cool I just I'm gonna
take my sweatshirt off and I'm worried
that my shirt is gonna pull up do you
just hold my shirt down and so she held
my shirt down while I took my sweatshirt
off and she was like you're right that
was surprisingly intimate and so it
became this funny thing where the punch
line was like really mundane but by
creating that like unease of like I'm
gonna ask you to do something it's going
to be weird but and then delivering
something that's ultimately safe it
really is like being good it's a similar
thing to being good at comedy like you
have to know where you can push you have
to know what's going to keep people off
balance give them a sense of like sort
of uneasy anticipation and then you
release it yeah and this is like this is
like deliberate with lots of practice
because again it's hard to write out
because the reason why these
conversations suck sometimes because
like I know there's somebody listening
at home that's like very awkward very
kind of Quasi Autistic or whatever and
it's like they're yeah like there are
times where it is the truth it is yeah
there are times when you talk about
about like um like people talk about
like enthusiastic affirmative consent
you know like in order to you have to
have a girl you know saying like yes and
getting blah blah blah blah and it's
like sometimes I'll go this route if I'm
like very unsure but like generally I
think I can generally feel it out
um but then sometimes people will ask
like well hold on well I'm not sure blah
blah blah and it's like okay well if
you're asking you probably should just
get like the verbal like yesterday like
if you can't tell like you
um because there are even times where
like even again even for something like
that like I can mess up sometimes or
like I miss reading stuff especially
like new partners and everything
um
[Music]
yeah a lot of it is like you have to
practice it a lot I will say one thing
in regards to the me too thing
um this is something that I try to be
very conscious of a lot
um
and it's something that I think would
help a lot is when you're dealing with
women this is so weird because as a guy
you'd never ever ever feel this around a
woman it's it's weird
it's hard to empathize but it's even
hard to empathize because being around a
bigger man won't give you the same
feeling because bigger men don't touch
you either it's weird when you're in a
position where you're going to be
engaging in an activity where there's a
guy that could kill you at any moment if
you wanted to or make you feel like you
go or make you feel really uncomfortable
and that's like part of your
recreational get together with that
person this is what like what sex is for
women so that Arrangement is
intrinsically there's a lot going on
there a guy is thinking like I just want
to [ __ ] this girl and that's it and the
girl is like I don't know if I want to
go if I say no is this guy gonna feel
this way like is it like ah it's like if
there's like a million things that
they're like thinking about are trying
to manage when I'm trying to get people
advice for like what hit on people or
how to pick up people I don't that often
because [ __ ] it because you either know
you don't know like if you were gonna do
something some of that this is like a
deliberate conscious thing I try to keep
in mind is always try to do your best to
make the woman feels like she has a way
out and if you want to call it
manipulation more often than not that'll
actually get you laid than anything else
so like it might be a really subtle
thing like I'm driving let's say that I
go out on a date with a girl and we get
back to my car at this point what I
really want to do is just turn my
ignition or driver to my apartment right
because if I get in my apartment right
but rather than like rather than do that
um the attempting thing can be to ask a
question like hey do you want to go to
my place
and you ask a girl that and it's really
hard like if you give a woman if you
tell her like let's go do this and the
only way out is confrontation a lot of
times she won't do the confrontation
because she just doesn't want to deal
she'll because women are usually
conditioned to acquiesce and to be
submissive and agreeable so she'll just
kind of like keep going along until
you've gotten her into a way more
uncomfortable situation than you even
realize but sometimes asking somebody a
question like hey do you want to cover
my apartment or do you have like
something going on in the morning if you
like offer like a little out like that
if the woman feels like she has to be
like okay if I want to leave I can say
yes as long as somebody always feels
like they have the ability to step out
people tend to be way more comfortable
because it alleviates a ton of pressure
from the situation so sorry that's like
just a really roundabout way to say like
any time you're engaging with a woman
and there have been times where like I
could tell like a woman's uncomfortable
whatever like be willing to just like
back off and like take a break and be
chill because I think like the best
thing for a woman in any type of new
especially sexual any romantic situation
you always want her to feel like if she
says no or like even if she doesn't say
no if she's building up people that you
can like put the brakes on and just like
chill for a bit and I think it if more
people had that kind of mentality I
think one you would end up having more
sex like this sounds manipulative I
don't mean to make it something but I
don't think there's ever been a time
where I've since the girls like that I
was like hey let's just like take a
break for a moment every single one of
the situations eventually resulted in us
[ __ ] because he's like okay I feel
chill or whatever
um so one it helps guys I guess get laid
but then two it helps you avoid those
like me too things because it's very
very very easy to get a girl in a really
compromised situation that she wouldn't
be in if she could have made the choice
right from the start but you've kind of
like cleverly navigated her there the
entire way without even realizing you're
doing it you know
interesting my mom gave me a really good
piece of advice when I was a kid that
was so unintuitive but served me very
well which she said for a woman to have
an orgasm she has to trust you
and I remember being like what does
trust have to do with an orgasm like
that was so foreign to me but that was
the first time where I was like whoa
then this is a very different experience
for a woman than it is for a man and
because I got that advice before I
started having sex I brought that into
the table where I was like okay okay
like this is a totally different game a
totally different experience and may PS
have led into the me showing up with
flowers and poetry and uh you know maybe
I went a little too soft
um but that that was a real key insight
to your point about giving them an exit
ramp making sure they feel safe all the
time that because that's ultimately
that's what the trust means trust me
it's like if I'm uncomfortable are you
gonna stop because it's fully once the
girl's in your apartment like whether
she lives or dies like her entire
Destiny her fate is now in your hands as
the guy and for a lot of guys like you
don't even realize what the what that
experience is like you know yeah no
doubt so and then also I'll I'll do this
because I'm I'm also bi too so I'm is
like really funny that I've noticed in
terms of hooking up with guys and girls
and I've hooked up with way more girls
than guys and all the girls I've hooked
up with I think there's been one that I
can remember that like really pushed my
boundary in a way where I'm like we're
stopping like we're not gonna do this
help me understand how do you navigate
an open marriage which sounds
difficult tenacious yeah
um I listen here's what I think I think
all relationships are difficult to
navigate
so yeah but you dialed that [ __ ] to hard
like video game context this is like
what's that game uh that you just die
every two seconds
uh Dark Souls Dark Souls yes this is
like Dark Souls on hard ranked like yeah
walk me through it I think polyamorous
people can get jealous when people are
hooking up with people monogamous people
get jealous are you polyamorous meaning
multiple like actual relationships or
are you able to have
short-term sexual encounters those feel
very really hard to like it's hard to
like label anything for my relationship
so you don't have like specific rules
yeah we do but they change depending on
how it feels right here's what I'll say
like for me and I think it's generally
true of Molina
um believe it or not a whole bunch of
one night stands are actually not that
much fun like my my top five best sexual
partners in my life not even remotely
close to anything have been the five
girls that I all dated long term for a
year or more and two of them started off
as basically like virgins and horrible
sex and by the end it was like some of
the best I've had in my life so one
night stands are not much fun also I
kind of like to be friends with like the
people that I like I'm kind of uh I'm
like a cuddly like I like being close to
people and everything so the idea of
like you [ __ ] somebody like you leave
there was one girl I've hooked up with
in my life who's like super anti-color
we like finish and she like rolls over
and to go to sleep and I was like this
feels really weird
um so like generally they're gonna be
people that I'm friends with and then if
we can [ __ ] too that's like that's
really fun and cool
um and I think that's kind of the types
of sexual relationships that I would
like to explore more rather than just
like I meet somebody hook up and then
I've maybe never see them again so so
the reason I say this because some
people say that that's not quite an open
relationship because you're doing like
romantic or friendship things with
people but then other people say that's
not really polyamorous because you're
not like dating multiple people other
people would say if you're friends with
somebody you [ __ ] them you're de facto
dating them so I don't know it is that's
it's whatever that is it's interesting
so this might be my age showing but
um how do you conceptualize then what
marriage is If part of the marital
component isn't that you're because like
to to be honest I can understand
swinging if the couple is together but
it gets weirder for me if it's like
literally to completely detached
separate experiences
okay
um let's see if I can do this so there
are
firstly my wife is what I live with and
my life is structured around her if I'm
in a girl I like in Seattle I'm not
going to move to Washington right like
my life is structured around like what
is my wife doing she's like the priority
in my life I'm not about to give half my
money to a random girl I meet or
whatever but if my wife I had a pair of
Swedish taxes recently because she
couldn't transfer money right this is
stuff I'm not doing for a random [ __ ]
girl okay so my wife is like my priority
number one
um number two my wife should be the
person that like I communicate the most
with so in terms of like friendship
romantic communication connection all of
that she's like the person that I
connect the most with and those are the
things that like make her my wife the
fact that she's my priority the fact
that I hopefully I assuming everything's
running well I'm communicating with her
doing the most with her and like the the
moments of time that we're sharing are
like the most special that we have
hopefully with any other person
um the way that I view other people this
probably speaks to some level of like
selfishness that I have because I'm
greedy for whatever the [ __ ] I want or
whatever
um it's really cool meeting new people
that's really fun for me I like making
new friends I like talking to people
that are interesting sex is really fun
it's really cool it's a fun way to get
to know somebody be closer to somebody
and then like those like romantic sexual
friendship moments they're like these
little special moments in time that you
can carve out with a lot of different
people that's like special and fun and
unique all on their own and to be able
to explore that and have that with other
people for me that's like super awesome
like I love my wife there are so many
like fun romantic things that we've done
together
more than any other individual but
they're also like a lot of there are
other cool people that I've met and it's
like super fun to like share those
moments in time with them as well but it
doesn't like replace the feelings I have
for my wife it's just like something
separate the way that I would describe
it nobody likes the analogy and I
understand why especially for like when
I was people but like you can have like
a lot of different friends having one
friend doesn't take away from the time
you spend with another you can even have
a best friend and have other friends and
like still have like really special
moments with all those people too why
don't people like that
um well because then let's say having a
friend isn't the same as [ __ ]
somebody or are you saying your spouse
is just your friend it usually is where
people go but yeah interesting that
analogy works for me in some ways it
helps me understand how you see it
um now when I think about so are you do
you see yourself as married forever or
is it that a marriage is is it's a
moment in time and I don't really think
about the future it's whatever it'll do
what it does too much money now it has
to be forever or somebody's dying okay
yes that's where we're one we're married
for life one of us is so
um no I mean like yeah I mean it's kind
of weird initially when we got married
it was just for the green card because
um she lives in Sweden legitimately just
for the Green Card well I mean I want
her to live with me it's my wife right
so she lives in Sweden eleven America so
she either gets to see me three months a
year or we get married so we can live
together like a couple that loves each
other so actually you were already in
love yeah yeah yeah yeah but you
actually got married yeah so I think we
could like
um but then after that obviously your
feelings continue to grow for each other
and now I think the way that we approach
our life like the way that I've got
everything structured is I hope we're
together forever that's like what I'm
planning on that's what she's planning
on like obviously sometimes people break
up or divorces happen or whatever but
like I don't have like an exit ramp in
my mind right now for like okay well if
Molina doesn't work out you know [ __ ]
that there's a Norwegian chick I can
talk to or something right like that's
not what I'm thinking yeah hopefully
she's thinking the same with me do you
guys still talking about that yeah no of
course we do we just want to like uh
like I think eventually we probably want
to have kids but we our relationship
needs to stabilize a lot because there's
a lot of things we have a we have a
really big age Gap so there's a lot of
things that she's growing and learning
and there's a lot of things that I'm
still like growing and learning how are
you you're pretty young I'm 34. how old
is she 24.
I guess at that age yeah Fair
um okay so then walk me through jealousy
seems like the most obvious thing do you
have to contend with
um
okay I don't like to dive too much of
this because I guess it's a weird
asymmetries
for whatever reason I don't know why and
it might be because of like my
Independence growing up I am very very
rarely if ever a jealous person it's
just not something I tend to care about
that much
um there are so many things in my life
that I can like pour my time into that
like if my like if my partner wants to
go up and hang out with somebody else or
[ __ ] somebody I'll say whatever she
wants to do like I can stream an infant
at a time if there's an infinite amount
of things I work on there are other
people that I can talk to
um for me at the end of the day like I
would be sad if she was like I don't
love you anymore I'm leaving like that
would be sad to me but as long as I feel
like she loves me and at the end of the
day we get to hang out with each other
and chill and you know be together and
do things like if she wants to hang out
with other people in the meantime like
that doesn't bother me I guess yeah I'm
sure that like theoretically I'll say
that but I'm sure theoretically there
could be things that would bother me
like if she [ __ ] somebody came back and
she was like oof like writing who
doesn't feel as good because Alaska had
like a you know 15 inch big white dick
and now I've got your you know I'm like
okay well [ __ ] me I'm sure there are
some things that like could bother me
but with the way that it plays out right
now like no I think we're cool that was
literally going to be the question that
I asked would it bother you if you knew
she was having sex with somebody that
she thought was better than you
the I I'm like pretty competitive by
Nature so like if people are like having
good you're gonna find a way yeah
because I mean like there'll be times we
talk we're like oh you hooked up the guy
like what did he do that you really
liked like what was like really fun for
your like what's something that you know
like ideally assuming a relationship
with healthy and everything's working
like those are the types of
conversations we should be having so
like yeah because you should given the
opportunity to be with a person for a
long time is like the biggest sexual
Advantage you could possibly have and I
feel like to monogamous people like I
always like flip it back and it's like
everywhere that show me the guy that
makes her laugh more than you or a guy
that she thinks is like you know looks
better than you like those people exist
out there I'm probably not the best
person for my partner there's probably
some guy out there that's better than me
at Starcraft funnier than me hard to
imagine I know uh more handsome more
whatever like that guy's probably out
there but we've got like a history
together time together we've tested it
and we're doing our best so yeah you've
got like a that time investment that you
make is a skill that nobody else in the
outside world can compete with right
there might be other guys that are
taller than me more handsome than me
bigger dick whatever but none of them
have spent four and a half years of my
wife I've only done right so yeah that's
I guess that's how I think about it
very interesting so uh
uh your life at least if I'm
understanding you correctly it seems
clear that you believe your life is
better living it that way do you think
that your marriage would be stronger if
you didn't
um I don't know sometimes I think my
whole life would be better if I got an
accident like chop my dick off um so
much energy too much of your focus I
make dumb decisions sometimes um
would my I don't know my wife likes to
mess around too with other people like
it's fun for her
um I don't think I would ever do it
one-sided where like I'm just at home
and she's messing with other people like
we'd always probably both be doing
things
um I think with the lifestyle that we
lead with the things that I like with
the things that she likes it's probably
better to do what we do now I don't
think a monogamous relationship would be
better for our relationship I don't
think so if it would
the only aspect that would make it
better is probably her number one
complaint and the worst part about
dating me is sometimes my time can be
highly restrictive so
and and also the way that I spend time
with people is really is different than
the way that she spends time with people
so
I've noticed in life some people really
like mundane time together I love
mundane time I like cuddling with
somebody in bed while we're both looking
at our phones or working someone in a
laptop
um like little like holding somebody's
leg while you're driving like these
types of things mean stop being dreaming
with somebody these like mean a lot to
me so I can spend like a whole week with
her doing that every single day we've
jammed every day together we've gone
we've gone out to like three or four
meals sleep together every night blah
blah and by the end of the week she'll
be like I haven't seen you for a minute
yeah I know that drill yeah and for her
she's thinking like in her mind okay we
do these things all the time but when
you go hang out with another girl you're
not just spending Monday time you're
taking out to dinner you're like going
on fun events like you're doing things
like I want to do those things so for
her her special time is like really high
quality time where we're doing like
special exceptional things so balancing
that out for me is very difficult
because she likes time a lot different
than I do so the only issues we run into
is where like if I'll see like another
girl and we do like a fun special thing
just because I only see them once or
whatever and then she's thinking like
okay well we don't do anything together
that's a conflict because in my mind I'm
like [ __ ] I spent like 100 hours
with you last week and in her mind she's
like you didn't spend a single hour
doing anything special with me so that's
like a way different yeah approach to I
know it well my wife is my business
partner and for me that is
extraordinarily quality time I love
building my business so much it is my
favorite game to play is to see if I can
build this thing and to do it with her
is the great joy of my life and so I'm
like yeah we spent whatever 90 Plus
hours focused on the same thing this
week often in the same room pushing the
same thing and for her just that clock
doesn't start yeah and she she likes the
mundane stuff so if I come and I work
next to her so she's watching TV because
I work more than she does so if she sits
down to watch TV she'll be like ah do
you mind like coming and sitting next to
me while you work and I I get nothing
out of that I get no sense of like oh
I'm with you if we're not focused on the
same thing that doesn't give me the same
thing that does her but it does her so
I'm like okay cool like I'm completely
absorbed in my own world
that's uh that's very very interesting
how do you deal you're so open about
this how do you deal with the internet
pushback when people want to do an ad
hominem attack against you they pull out
what is one of the more sort of just for
the average guy the most scathing thing
that they can throw at you yeah that and
they'll say horrible things about your
wife and I haven't seen I haven't seen
enough of your contents you know if you
never do I've never seen you even
respond to it uh Santa's all fight with
people it's fun
um this is this just comes from my
background as being like very very
independent internet stuff doesn't hit
me on like a very personal level like
I'll get upset of people are saying
things that are like wrong about me or
if they're making like dumb arguments
whatever but I figured this out like
really early on in streaming like I have
to live with myself 24 7 and it's my
life I will never let the [ __ ]
internet dictate my life to me like
there have been times where I dated a
girl that my whole stream hated and like
it was like why are you [ __ ] with
this I'm dating her not you [ __ ]
I don't care if you don't like my
[ __ ] girlfriend that's good for you
guys whatever you want she's the one
that I [ __ ] live with [ __ ] you but
but I understand I understand it
um
it is exceptionally rare that a person
so something that I do that I think is
exceptionally rare is when I live my
life I genuinely I have like an internal
um schema that I like hold things to to
see like do I want to do this or do I
don't want to do this and I'm genuinely
capable of interpreting all of those
things for myself I think for a lot of
people I think the interpretations are
done on a social level there's like this
phenomenon I describe sometimes where
like I'll ask somebody I'll like ask a
guy like would you ever wear like a pink
dress and the response would be like
it's like this kind of thing where I
feel like they're kind of like what am I
supposed to say and then they'll give me
the answer that like closely resembles
like the group that they're in rather
than like not to say that they should
want to wear a pink dress or not I
wouldn't want to but like I would think
about it like I don't think I want to do
this right but I don't feel like a
pressure for other people to do it I
think for a lot of people they feel the
pressure to live a certain way and part
of feeling that pressure also requires
you to reinforce that pressure so that's
where a lot of the comments come from
like for a lot of people because there's
a lot of cognitive dissonance there too
if you see my lifestyle it is impossible
that somebody like me could ever be
because for me to be able to live my
life in that style and to be happy with
it would require for them to reorganize
their whole world view so in order to
resolve because we all work Con we
always work to resolve cognitive
dissonance in order to make my lifestyle
make sense either they have to reform
how they view the world and they have to
acknowledge maybe there are a lot of
other types of ways to be happy or I'm
just a [ __ ] who's hardcore coping and I
cry to myself to sleep every night and
that's probably way more likely so they
just go with that basically yeah so I
feel like having the understanding of
like where they come from mentally like
I get it
um helps me to like not care as much but
then again like I said like at the end
of the day this is my life like why the
[ __ ] would I let strangers online
dictate to me how I live you know it's
very interesting to me so I
um when I'm very good at controlling my
emotions but I definitely have a
negative response to things if
I think the way that people come after
you and the way that you're just like
water off a duck's back I would not
enjoy that like that would really which
is super that's like 99 of people that's
99 of talent of like online influencers
that's super super normal yeah some
people feel really bad about that but I
if I'm ever talking to a friend that's
doing that I always start like it is
totally normal to feel this way like
it's fine like everybody deals with this
because every because people don't talk
about it that much sometimes so people
start to deal with and they feel really
bad about it and you have to remind them
like this is super normal like humans
are social creatures it would be bad if
you like didn't feel that pressure from
outside people because that's probably
how a lot of society regulates itself
right it's some amount of like external
pressure affecting you what what is your
response to negative emotion I've heard
you say that you actually like the
stress and you like it when people are
coming after you and you're playing I
mean there was one time you said that
like someone's trying to come after me
and like ruin my career or whatever you
like I like that and having to figure it
out and I was like God that did not that
doesn't sound fun
um or in that moment do you think that
the sort of dial of intensity on that
feeling is low
there is a um I'll call this like
righteous Fury or righteous anger a more
boring way to define this is
um [ __ ] there's two words for this one
is eustress and one is this stress yeah
um most of the time when we talk about
stress and it being negative what we're
really talking about is distress
and being distressed means that you're
in an area where you are very aggravated
by the environmental circumstances and
you don't have the tools to deal with it
it's a sense of hopelessness it's a
sense of fear it's a sense of anxiety it
just destroys you it's bad for you
physiologically
it's just horrible
um but then there's this concept called
eustress where you're being actively
challenged by your environment and
there's a lot of external factors
stressing you but you do have the tool
set to deal with it and for whatever
reason I've always felt like I've got
the tool set to deal with things like if
something bad happens there have been
some times where like a catastrophic
thing will happen and I need to take a
day to be like my I know I'm mentally
[ __ ] today but then the next day it's
like okay well I'm not starting from
carpet cleaning I've got like a whole
bunch of [ __ ] we're going for a minute
so what do I have going for me where can
I go from here what I need to do I had
this moment I got [ __ ] banned from
twitch when I got departed from twitch
these were two like huge moments for me
because I'm like I've streamed this
platform for like 11 years what the [ __ ]
um but yeah you you there's time
continues to move in One Direction and
whether or not you want to move along
with it is ultimately up to you so for
whatever reason I have a really good
adaptive mindset of like I have to work
and figure out what I need to do next so
that like tends to keep most of the
stress at Bay there's that
um there's two other big things the
second thing is that a lot of my life I
have like three Secrets okay other than
that like my whole life is basically
open for the internet to scrutinize so
it's very hard for people generally to
get any kind of like Leverage or
blackmail on me like more often than not
if somebody accuses me of impropriety
I'm like okay well let's just leak all
of our logs and you can tell me like
we'll let the people decide right I
might be cringe sometimes but I'm not
like a rapist or I'm not like abusive
I'm not doing anything like crazy or
weird or whatever
um so that helps a lot
um and that like a lot of my life is
public and then the third thing kind of
going along with the end of the seventh
uh the second thing I think I'm
generally like a pretty good person like
I haven't really [ __ ] anybody over
the um
they pay my employees well I've never
scammed anybody I've never done anything
like I've just never done anything like
that bad so usually when people are
gunning for me it's on some like total
[ __ ] rumor stuff and I know that as
long as I put together a good enough
evidence if I navigate it appropriately
if I control my emotional state and if I
present a compelling case to the public
I'll always come out on top because I'm
like conducting myself in a decent way
so that those are like the three big
things I think that like kind of helped
me navigate it all I know at one point
you had a bad breakup or something and
she leaked uh very sensitive photos
first of all that was not a breakup it
was a girl that I wasn't dating I was a
massive [ __ ] dick so I probably
somewhat deserved it maybe not to that
extent but basically it was a girl and I
that used to sleep together
um and we were friends too I I should
say that we were friends first so we
also slept together but um I was sharing
pictures of her in a group of a couple
friends or whatever we were talking and
we were making jokes about like the way
that her face looked which was really
horrible I showed her that really shitty
but um apparently one of the people in
that group knew her they told her and
she had worked as an assistant for me
and she found out how to get on my
Twitter and she started posting pictures
of me I remember I was in the middle
[ __ ] me I'm in the middle of um do you
know what MLG is no Major League Gaming
I'm in the middle of this [ __ ] huge
audience okay I'm sitting near the front
um because I'm a big streamer for
whatever and um this guy in front of me
Jeff Robinson I remember
um he takes his phone out and he turns
around and he's like hey dude nice dick
and I was like what and then I look and
he's showing my Twitter her with a
horrible [ __ ] and I like get up and I'm
like holy [ __ ] and it was like a pretty
stressful day I would imagine now what
was your response how did you bounce
back from that
um well my initial response was unhinged
I told her I'm gonna contact your school
I'm gonna get you kicked out in order to
destroy your [ __ ] life you horrible
[ __ ] piece of [ __ ] that is one
reaction um that was that the day after
uh I was streaming again this is
something that I figured out really
early on okay
people this is a [ __ ] really made of
people only know you for your last three
videos okay if you do something if you
[ __ ] up you do something stupid or
whatever you have to keep making content
and you have to keep moving forward so
I'm pretty sure I was streaming the next
day a lot of people were making fun of
me like saying dumb [ __ ] or blah blah
blah I kind of like joked around with it
by day two it had dropped by like 90 and
by three there were just like a few
people left saying anything something
that I noticed that happens if you're a
content creator
um actually it's probably true of life
in general if anything really big
happens take the appropriate time you
need to process it or figure it out but
oh my God don't stop moving you have to
keep moving forward I know so many
content creators that went through a big
piece of drama and they were like I have
to take like a month off and I'm like
take a day off don't take a month off
because what happens is you stop that's
the last thing people remember about you
you get out of the swing of doing
content
the last thing people remember you is
really horrible when you come back two
things are going to be true one your
initial audience is going to be way
smaller because now people are
forgetting about you and two everybody's
gonna bring up that last thing so now
you start your stream again the horrible
thing that made you quit is back with
one fifth the audience size you're like
[ __ ] it I'm gonna take another and then
you're done I've known so I know like
five or six different content creators
that like had a big drama and this was
their exit that they never came back
from it and I'm like you just have to
keep streaming it sucks it'll be keep
streaming keep making videos push
through it and you'll come out the other
side usually okay assuming you didn't
like rape or murder somebody right
walk me through how like as I was
researching you uh I started thinking
I'm not sure I'd be good in the format
of a stream like you are a you're
playing games at the same time which I
actually don't understand how you do uh
because we we set up a twitch Channel I
was literally we got all of it set up I
was ready to go I was about to sit down
and play and I was like I can't talk
while I'm playing this is not gonna be
good content I'm either gonna look so
dumb playing the game that people like
this guy is a loser uh or I'm not gonna
say anything I'm just going to be
completely sucked into the game
um but also you're having to think on
your feet so much for so long there's no
sense of like even the part who knows if
if we'll leave it in uh probably but
like I have the option to cut out some
of your earlier comments if we think
they're too hardcore right you don't get
to do that on stream so
how do you deal with years and years and
years of that knowing that you're going
to evolve as a person
I just my my current strategy now is
it's funny I did this several times
yesterday
um I want to talk about the things that
I feel the ideas that I have like those
subjects let's talk about them as soon
as people start accusing me of [ __ ] I'll
just like yeah and
um so like if somebody says like I think
he said this thing like I actually think
you're pretty racist um like how do you
feel about that like yeah I am racist
like what do you want to talk about yeah
I am misogynistic what do you want to
talk about like I I I don't I don't ever
engage in conversations like are you
racist or are you misogynistic are you I
just don't do it anymore it's boring to
me it's stupid it's usually based off of
like one tweet or one thing if you think
I'm racist or massage that's fine but
like let's just talk about like whatever
like let's say I am let's say I'm not
it's not gonna change the conversation
going forward
um so to some extent like yeah I just
does it said another way is that
um look at me by the ideas that I
present here and now well oh if you're
talking about like yeah I mean like
sometimes my positions on things will
update like I'll change my stance on
some things but then I'll just say that
too I have no problem like somebody like
I've changed my mind a lot on deep
platforming for instance and people seem
guys are coming it's like you're a total
hypocrite you said this in 2017. and I'm
like am I hip Burger because I changed
my [ __ ] mind like how old are you 25
do you think everything you thought when
you were 15 do you are you a hypocrite
like what a stupid thing to there's a I
don't remember it was a Hemingway quote
or something but it's like when um when
the facts change I change my mind what
do you do sir or when I learn something
to my channel right yeah there are gonna
be things that I don't believe anymore
but
um usually I can tell immediately there
are some people I talk to that are
really trying to have a conversation and
there are other people I talk to that
are not so some people will say things
like hey in 2018 2019 you said this do
you still think this anymore or do you
still believe this or why or why not
like okay cool that's an interesting
conversation other times people say like
how do you feel about this and I'm like
oh like I think this thing and they're
like really because in 2016 you said
that
and it's like yeah I probably felt
differently back then okay well no what
do you mean you are you just like
flip-flopping whatever it's like no like
what right you can tell like really
quickly if somebody's genuinely
interested in what you're saying versus
if you're trying to like now you do the
wall on gotchas or whatever now are you
at all worried about the Rogan n-word
Supercut happening to you like as you
get bigger which I have a feeling you
will uh you've been at it so long you're
good at it especially as 2024 comes
you'll be like the political guy in that
Arena that people are going to go to go
to go to do you have a sense of the sort
of Damocles over your head that I am
gonna have to go through this at some
point I I don't care like I said I try
to like short circuit or diffuse a lot
of these conversations where like if
somebody says something I was like yeah
this is what I think about it like
you're going to talk about account or
you talk about something different I
think that only because I'm independent
from a lot of sponsors I don't rely on
sponsorships or teams so I don't have to
worry about that and because I'm not
bending the rules in a way that's going
to get me kicked off a platform like I'm
not like like I might have stances on
like offensive language or slurs but I'm
not saying them on YouTube right so
another thing I'm gonna ban for
something like that but I find
humans are very reflexive in nature for
how they deal with people I don't know
if you've noticed this
um for small children this is something
I learned a long time ago in my mom did
daycare and I see it with my kid when a
kid is like running around if they like
bump their head on something and they
follow the ground the first thing they
do is they like look to an adult for a
reaction right and if you've got like
the stereotypical Mom that's like
the kid's gonna be crying but like if
you walk up to the kid it's like you're
fine gonna like do whatever like they'll
whine for like two seconds and then they
walk off and they do whatever
um if somebody comes up to me and
they're like hey I've got this clip back
in 2019 I think you're racist and I'm
like no no no no no no listen listen I
swear to God like hold on like the way
that this interview like if you give
them the power then they're gonna take
it and they're gonna ride on that high
horse and you're gonna Empower them to
do those things
um whereas like I said before I was like
okay like maybe I am let's talk about
something that you actually want to talk
about
um my biggest complaint when it comes to
like cancer culture and stuff is people
give way too much power to the people
that are trying to cancel people but I
recognize I say that from a position of
luxury because I'm not part of an
organization or part of something that
could come down and punish me if I were
to like give an outlandish video like I
might have a different perspective on
this if I was like the CEO of like Pepsi
or something else you know like now I'm
representing a lot of other people when
I talk uh so I wanted to ask the Rogan
thing when that all popped off what did
you think did he as somebody who does
have sponsors you think handled it well
should he have did he do anything about
it or did he just keep track as far as I
know he made an apology I didn't follow
it super closely I don't think you
should make it he probably had to but I
don't I just like I I really don't like
you okay because of all the like the the
what I would say like the misinformation
that he um hosts especially related to
vaccines and stuff a lot of triggers me
but um I don't think Joe Rogan is a
racist I've like I've never my life
gotten a vibe that he's racist and I
don't like the hunting for like people's
bigotry to like try to figure out like
did they say this word and blah blah
blah and I think I watched that clip
compilation it was a long time ago at
this point it was a while ago now but I
don't remember seeing it was like oh
that guy's really racist it's just like
dumb so yeah I don't know the thing that
sucks about apologizing and again
with Rogan it's different because he's
got like a bunch of employees that
depend on him and sponsor deals and
stuff maybe he needed to but man by
apologizing he gives so much more power
to that group of people where it's like
yeah
now you've made him that much more
emboldened for the next person like oops
sorry for the next person that they go
after yeah yeah
it's interesting
um
what why do you dislike Rogan so much
there's something my mom told me when I
was in high school and it was don't ever
let your mind be so open that your brain
falls out of it
and sometimes I feel like with Rogan he
has this tendency to agree with anybody
that's on a show or he gives a platform
a lot to him and one of the big I
shouldn't say hey Rogan I don't hate
Rogan he sounds like a cool guy actually
most of my shows are pretty funny the
only issue that I have is right now
there's a huge surge of like
anti-establishment sentiment and as soon
as somebody's willing to come on and say
like oh yeah like the vaccines are fake
they're causing like mushrooms to grow
in your body and like the diet's
suddenly documenting a blah blah blah
and it's like if you want to have them
that's fine but like at least like
provide like some kind of like pushback
like bring somebody on at the same time
or at least like have a real person on
afterwards like it seems like 80 of
people that come on are like denying all
this like pretty obvious medical [ __ ]
and that triggers me because Joe Rogan
is so popular I know that I need to
watch his episodes because I'm going to
be arguing with 50 different people that
are going to be echoing those same
arguments later so it's just that's
frustrating for me to deal with I guess
I also I don't know what you stand on
vaccine anything so maybe you agree with
them completely but yeah um I don't know
where I stand on the vaccine I think
that you really have to look at it so uh
I'm not gonna make a decision unless I
really like dig into it so I got
vaccinated and so I think vaccinations
on the whole are a miracle but I have no
idea I haven't looked at any of the data
from the the recent spout so yeah I am
definitely I I the way that I see it a
lot of people will say Tom you never
have to worry as long as you only talk
about things that you know about and I
have taken the exact opposite approach I
am more than happy to talk about things
that I know nothing about okay but I'm
just going to walk you through how I
think about it sure so the way that I
would think about the vaccine is look at
the data right so I don't I think it is
a huge problem that we face as a society
that right now people think tribally and
they allow themselves to I've a growing
hypothesis about this in fact one of the
things I found most interesting about
you is you don't seem to allow yourself
to be ideologically captured by your own
mind by your own beliefs by position by
being the opposite of them yeah yeah
like none of it uh including your own
audience which is we've all seen it
happen where people get audience capture
that can be a very strong gravitational
pull so I get it
so what I do is say okay there there is
a path to understanding what this is and
I'm going to walk down that path and I
don't care what the answer is not that I
don't care what I care about is the
truth I care deeply about identifying
the truth now whatever the truth is the
truth is and so unless it's something
that we can change
then I just want to know what what are
the facts so that I can adjust
accordingly and then if I find okay I
know where we are today and it's
something that's malleable
again I still needed to know the truth
and so this is where I get I get
heartbroken for people that don't want
to engage with the truth so there's a
guy I'm gonna make a prediction about
you I don't think you'll like this guy
but I'll be very interested to see I'm
mismapping your world view uh an
economist named Thomas Soule and fan I
assume you're not a fan not too much
yeah he's a smart guy yeah yeah I think
he's brilliant is he right about
everything nobody's going to be I
haven't read enough of his stuff to be
to know where the edges are but he gave
me a quote that is so powerful that I
think about him all the time and the
quote was the last 30 years have been
marked by exchanging what sounds good
exchanging what worked for what sounds
good and I was like it it suddenly made
so many things click into place there's
two things that help me navigate
um the times that we're living in so
I've been in La now for almost 30 years
I have watched it change man and not for
the better and so I'm often asking like
what happened and I I really think it is
very well intentioned people there's two
things I'll finish that statement
well-intentioned people with terrible
policies that they are not checking
against reality saying hey here's the
predicted outcome did we get it no we
didn't then we have to change was it was
it San Francisco recently that had the
ten thousand dollar
I didn't hear about this oh [ __ ] what
was uh it was either it was either San
Francisco or La where they wanted to
make things to make women feel safe and
also to give shade in the Sun so it's
like a steel pole that comes up and it's
got a cover and a light and these
installations cost like ten thousand
dollars each and I think everybody was
just like it might have been like San
Jose so I'm sorry there's just another
example of like yeah
right idea make them actually be safe
would be amazing
possibly wrong execution uh so that is
the first side of that equation and then
the second side of the equation is that
you need to make sure that you're in
that Loop of does this thing actually
work and so often people are not willing
to look at that
and I haven't entirely figured out why
that is true okay maybe I can give you
an idea this is it's interesting so I
have a saying that encapsulates both of
these points when I'm telling people to
think about policy is I try to tell
people stop getting attached to the
process you have to be attached to the
outcome and I notice that what a lot of
people do is they will tie an outcome
together with a process and that process
becomes unassailable because it is
interpreted as attacking the outcome so
I give a really good example I don't
know if you feel about any of these
policies so maybe you'll disagree on the
merits I literally only care about the
truth okay sure well then everything I
say is right no I'm just kidding um
the there's only one way to deal with
housing okay and it's to zone for more
housing everything else sucks [ __ ] okay
just I'll just say that much one of the
ways that we combat housing issues is
rent control rent control can
temporarily alleviate the burden for
some Runners it hurts new renters it
hurts development it's not a good policy
right
um in my opinion and I think
economically I think there's a lot of
research on this but
the outcome we're looking for is more
housing for people okay rent control is
one way to effect that outcome but if it
doesn't work then you toss it but what a
lot of people do in their mind is
they'll take that rent control and that
becomes inextably linked to reducing
homelessness or helping people find more
affordable homes so when I come out and
I say hey I don't think rent control is
a good idea in their mind what they hear
is you don't want affordable housing
people and then they're attacking you
based on that outcome because they can't
separate that from any of the processes
the inability to separate those two
things also hurts people to critically
evaluate the effectiveness of any given
process because the thing that happens
is and this is important to know too
those outcomes are normative they're
moral in nature wanting to have less
homeless people wanting to have people
with Health Care these are moral claims
that we're making that we ought to be
doing these things which is good
the processes are not moral there's
nothing moral or immoral about
capitalism or socialism or or um
single-payer health care or any of these
things the the morality part will come
at the end based on who's affected and
how they end up playing out of the real
world but people have such an impossible
time disentangling those two things that
anytime you start arguing against a
given process because you don't think
it's effective they're just fighting you
because they think you disagree with the
outcome I noticed for a lot of
conservatives and liberals that fight
with each other they're fighting because
they're tying the outcome to the process
earlier in the show you had said
something where it's like I think that
liberals generally believe in like
compassion and kindness or whatever and
conservatives generally believe in like
individualism and pull yourself up by
your bootstraps it was funny that you
said that because in my opinion I think
that both sides actually care about
being compassionate towards people but
that's their that's kind of like their
their drive and like the outcome is
helping more people but the processes
are way different for both to a
conservative compassion is I go to my
church I tithe my income I donate to
Charities that help the people that I
want to be helped that I know will help
them and I think they can do that better
than the government and at the end of
the day the responsibility of my
immediate Community my friends my family
my neighbors it starts and it stops with
me that's what a small town conservative
thinks there's nothing compassionate
about the federal government stealing
money from people in San Francisco to
give food stamps to a homeless guy in my
town that came from the East Coast
that's in their mind what they're
thinking right so they have the
compassion
um the process is way way different and
then liberals and their mind they're
thinking like okay it's cool that you
donate money to your church but you
don't know the homeless guy down the
street nobody's [ __ ] helping him
donate all the money you want it's not
to get this guy treatment for a
schizophrenia right at the end of the
day there are some problems that only
the government can solve okay there's no
such thing as like the Catholic Church
socialized Health Care System that's
giving you know type 1 diabetic kids
treatment you have to go to the medical
system for that so the government has to
be involved in some of these things so
this is a thing where you've got two
different processes but when
conservatives and liberals attack each
other they don't say hey socialized
Health Care uh I don't think that's an
effective policy the liberal doesn't say
hey caring about your community are just
an individual level that's not effective
instead what both sets are saying is you
hate America you don't have compassion
you're not kind towards anybody you're
just trying to do like these evil things
because they can't separate the process
from the outcome I think I think that's
really insightful uh and is exactly the
way that I think we have to move forward
so when I think about politics and I
think about the government I've
traditionally not been involved at all
and until uh recent events I always said
if just an entrepreneur would one would
run for president like they know how to
run companies and they'll understand so
our first go-round did not work out
quite the way that I had hoped uh but
you know what I'm real quick on that
yeah I think it would have I am fully
convinced that Trump must have lucked
into a lot of [ __ ] I don't know if
you're lucky to being a billionaire but
he's so [ __ ] ineffective anything I
think that a good business leader
because like if you think about like a
good business leader like there are
traits of a good business leader that
Trump did not have one of the aspects of
being a CEO or being I know this for
being a supervisor okay I'm a supervisor
in a restaurant and my manager or VP
food and beverage when it comes walking
by and they say hey your tables are
dirty I am never saying oh I had two
employees slacking off because it starts
and stops with me I'm the supervisor
they're my responsibility I get paid the
money to manage them I can't [ __ ]
blame an employee when when somebody
else comes by a manager asks me what's
going on but for Trump you're supposed
to do the CEO of a company the brand
starts and starts with you you can tank
a whole business stock with one tweet
you can't be passing the buck to every
other person if you want to run the
country like a business because
ultimately the other day being a CEO
means being accountable and he had no
accountability I'm sorry just that's
like a thing where people because people
say like business leader can't run the
country because the Trump is like maybe
they could Trump just didn't run it like
a business leader he ran it like a like
a monarch but that sorry yeah the thing
that I really want to see people do
whoever it is is is understand that
every idea that you have process is it's
a test and you're gonna try it and
you're going to see if it works and if
it does and you can do it more and if it
doesn't then you're going to change and
that's why I think everything really
starts with the North Star and I feel
like political debates should always be
arguing about what are we trying to
accomplish let's get it down in a single
sentence don't don't get don't obfuscate
things with fancy language just in a
single sense what are we trying to
accomplish Okay cool so now if we can
agree on that fine fair if left and
right are really just debating about the
method by which we get there we're just
gonna try something and if it works like
we and this is physics progress I
mentioned that earlier so physics of
progress it is a set of steps and they
are very easy to run it's the scientific
method recontextualized for businesses
where I thought of this so you have a
hypothesis we would need to do this it's
just your best guess you don't know you
have to try it first but you have a
hypothesis hopefully it's as informed as
possible about what you would have to do
to overcome the obstacle that stands
between you and your goal so you know
your goal you know the obstacle you have
a hypothesis on how you overcome that
obstacle you turn that hypothesis into a
test a thing you can do but you have to
have a metric that you say I'm expecting
when I do this test to get this exact
outcome and if I don't make meaningful
progress towards that outcome this test
was a failure and so then you try it and
you say okay cool we have new data and
now the question is do we make enough
progress that it's worth running that
test again but improved or do we realize
uh like just all together this is not
the right way to go about it
now the more that we can steer by
empirical data the better off we are but
it feels like people are going way out
of their way to make things more
complicated to silence dissenting voices
etc etc which then ultimately creates a
problem obviously tribalism is a big
part of this it's very complicated
problem but to me the solution feels it
it is physics like there is what I just
walk people through there is no way
around there is no way to be successful
in anything politics helping the
homeless anything anything until you do
that yeah that's hard sometimes because
sometimes it can be very bureaucratic so
getting certain changes passed or
approved or like even measuring them can
be difficult and that's part of the
problem you have to solve but if we
can't agree that that effectively the
scientific method is the only way
forward like if we can't agree on that
if there are some people that are like
no no the only thing that matters is the
idea has to sound good the idea has to
make people feel better it has to be
inspiring okay if I can't get you on to
that the outcome is what matters then
yeah we certainly if you're talking to
me we're never going to be able to make
progress because that does not make
sense to me sure I feel like a lot of
like even when I think of like the most
like capitalistic like kpi driven like
what I think of like kind of tech world
is like I'm thinking because you could
be like so fluid and mobile with
everything I think it's funny that even
in that world though it seems like a lot
of the decisions are it's almost like
dominoes I think it was I want to say
Facebook started with the idea of an
open office and like everybody copied
them and I think at the end of the day
the data came back and it just it wasn't
good to do do you know what I mean when
I say open the floor plan yes yeah that
I I think Facebook you said Facebook or
Google was the first one to do it and
then every company started like they're
doing it we're doing it they're doing it
we're doing it and everybody followed
suit and I think I think the data has
come out of each other like it doesn't
make workers
yeah it absolutely doesn't but everybody
jumped on it just because they saw
somebody through it
um and I feel like a lot of the tech
world like that sometimes do you
remember uh a long time ago when iPhone
uh when Apple eliminated the headphone
jack yes I think it was either Galaxy or
Samsung or it might have been Google
like was literally making ads making fun
of them like miss your headphone jack at
least we still have it next Generation
nobody has a headphone jack anymore
right you saw recently um Twitter in an
incredibly unpopular move uh was like
we're gonna start charging a lot more
for like API access and verification
right well Facebook started charging for
verification Reddit is not having a huge
issue with their charging apis sometimes
I feel like everybody's like looking
around it's like okay I really want to
do this thing but I need this
[ __ ] to be the public Fall Guy
for first and then we'll all do it
immediately after so yes it in fact that
brings me to the Overton window so there
are
just things that you can do like that
the culture will accept and this is this
is part of the problem there's enough
malleability in culture in people that
there will always be a temptation to try
to get what you want by manipulating
culture or you know trying to introduce
I mean I'm doing this if I'm completely
honest I'm actually waiting for somebody
to to point this out so uh my whole
thesis on impact theory was originally I
was just going to teach adults hey uh
the only because I took myself from
scrounging in my couch cushions to find
enough change to put gas in my car to
building and selling a company for a
billion dollars man like and so when you
take yourself from I can't even put gas
in my car to I'm fantastically wealthy
if you're wired like me you start going
oh my God like I'm not smarter than the
next person but I'm I have a better
frame of reference I have a better
belief system I have a better value
system that that really works and so I
wanted to start giving it to my
employees so my whole Mantra was I want
you to work here a for the exact number
of days that it's the most selfish thing
that you could do and then B I want you
to have the option to go work anywhere
because I am I am pumping you so full of
skills that you could go anywhere but
you believe I care more about your
future than your own mother that was
like my whole thing I used to say it to
my team all the time like I want you to
be here because you know nobody's ever
invested in you like this and so we
created this thing at the time was
Called Quest University and I was like
think like this act like this read these
books do this like it it physics of
progress I can't say that that one thing
will work but if you get in that Loop
like you really will be able to make
progress and two percent of them did
something with it and 98 didn't and so I
was like uh
okay I'm a scale guy so I was like 98
are dead to me I know too much now about
human psychology I'm going after kids so
11 to 15. horrible quote sounds terrible
11 to 15 became our sweet spot and so I
was like okay we're gonna educate
through entertainment because I'm like
don't try to change Behavior leverage it
yeah so I'm gonna make video games
basically that speak to 11 to 15 year
olds and I'm going to instead of trying
to make broccoli taste good I'm Gonna
Make Junk Food good for you and
that's what we're doing and so it's like
the the sort of scary part is that
really does work the bad news is like if
I were doing that for evil intent like
mobile games yes I guess that's one way
to look at it but like so our whole
thing the only reason that we exist is
to empower people but it's one of those
where there just is a truth that at a
societal level you really can manipulate
things so I bring that up because
um as these companies look to their left
and look to the right and one of them
does it they know you've now conditioned
society and I can now pull the trigger
on something like that and that stuff
works and this is ultimately how as a
society We Begin moving
yeah that's cool I don't think I have
anything to add to that but yeah I mean
yeah it seems like a cool concept a cool
idea what do you um
uh I try to think because it Harkens
back to I was educated a lot
unintentionally through video games I
learned I picked up so many random
tidbits you mentioning earlier the idea
that we have an organelle with its own
genetic code like I know all about that
because I played a game called Parasite
Eve like growing up
um there's so many random things I
picked up that yeah video games can be
instructive as long as
they have the right information in them
yeah
talk to me about your ability to break
down good ideas I've said a couple times
I think you think very clearly you seem
to have a an actual like structure to
how you break down ideas
[Music]
um
usually it's you keep calling it that
North Star thing
um for me it usually it's I've got like
some kind of like internal like guiding
principles and everything will map onto
that very easily usually
um in my opinion I think the hardest
thing to do in life is to figure out
like what do you really want what do you
want to do like usually if I'm talking
to a person especially people that feel
really unsertain about their future
usually what I try to hone on is like
what would you enjoy doing like what do
you like what makes you happy because
and then once you've figured out like
what do you want to do what's your dream
job what do you want to do the people
think that questions given to them are
so difficult to answer like should I go
to school here should I do this blah
blah blah if you ever get a question
like that that's difficult to answer the
reason why it's difficult to answer is
usually because you don't have that
internal question of like what you want
to be what you want to do figured out
you call it your North Star because once
you've truly figured out like Listen by
the time I'm 30 I want to be a lawyer
doctor I want to be an engineer I want
to be I want to be a manager of a
franchise at McDonald's or whatever
right if you have that then all of the
other decisions in the interim usually
become pretty easy for you because it's
like okay I really want to be a lawyer
by the time I'm 30
um at 22 you know I I guess you can do
pre-law or whatever for your undergrad
or something
um
if you have let's say like an
opportunity comes up for you to help run
the family business for like three or
four years
um and it might be like a decent chunk
of change or you could go to law school
if you really want to be a lawyer and
that's like something set in stone for
you even though you've got a nice
opportunity that comes up with your uh
maybe family business it's easier to say
like no I don't want to because I know
in five years this is where I want to be
I want to be doing the lawyer thing so I
have to say no to that usually a lot of
the confusion about like opportunities
to come up usually it's because you
don't really know where you want to be
going long term and to try to navigate
the world with no end point in mind is
impossible impossibly difficult because
every single decision requires you to
evaluate every single thing about your
life again for me in politics and ideas
it's usually pretty similar somebody
like oh well why do you support
um this particular thing and I was like
I don't know well let's boil it down to
like its most fundamental aspect I feel
about this or that and then we look at
this or that and then we you know look
at this or that and then you just go
from there say somebody um somebody
asked me a question about like a
single-payer healthcare right for me
um effective so very fundamentally two
people come together they make everybody
happier than if they were apart right so
fundamentally we try to create a society
that serves and needs as many people as
possible if you're looking at
single-payer versus multi-pair then all
we have to do at the end of the day is
let's look at countries that have this
Healthcare System measure their
Healthcare outcomes let's look at
countries of this Healthcare System
measure their health care outcomes based
on spending or whatever we could find
out like what's more effective and then
we move in that direction like that's
how I navigate those conversations
um I'll never order something like
everybody is entitled to health care or
everybody deserves like because I don't
those are like platitudes they're
meaningless right at the end of the day
like you said we have to find out what
works the best and then we employ that
system and then you go from there so I
think one of the big advantages is I
stay away from normatively loading any
process I'll never ever ever normatively
load unless the thing is by default like
entry like if somebody says like we
should make Society better by murdering
children it's like okay well that's not
good but um yeah generally I stay away
from normatively loading anything I try
to evaluate everything based on outcomes
and then once we have all that
information then the moral decision of
like well what's better because it
serves some moral or ethical end is
usually where I'll go from there and
and how do you translate that into
debate so debating is something that
um
you seem to have a unique gift for it's
it is not something that people are
usually by default good at are there
strategies that you use or is it all
intuitive for you uh no there's tons of
strategies a lot of deliberate
um
meditation on like uh figuring out like
what works and what doesn't work from uh
from what perspective what's going to
capture the audience what's going to
Super depends on the conversation it
super depends on who I'm talking to so
you'll research that person are you
mapping like their cognitive biases or
anything I hate I keep saying this super
depends I'll give an example for
um their Rolo tomasi red pill guy and
then Michael Sartain I think I don't
remember the other guy's name but I saw
a part of this I'm fresh and fit yeah
yeah I had two days to prepare for that
debate so I took two days off stream and
I wrote up an outline for all the data
that I wanted but at the very top of the
outline
I very specifically had these are my
goals for the conversation
um and these are the strategies that I'm
going to remember what the goals were
um [ __ ] I have this outline on my phone
somewhere but um I I think it was
something like uh my goal is to actually
destroy
um whatever claims they're making
um my goal is to demonstrate to the
audience that what I'm saying is correct
my goal is to specifically cite a source
with like a name publication date on
everything blah blah and then like I had
like for strategies it was like remain
calm the entire time minimize movement
of hands don't ever raise voice things
that I know like in these audiences I
when I get people I don't like to be bum
basket I like to shout out your skin
like this is fun for me and this is more
animated but I know for like red pill
audiences they want to see you like
communicate more like this really yeah I
hate that I hate it but it's a more
effective way of communicating with that
audience because they respect the person
that's capable of doing this more than
somebody's just like [ __ ] screaming
because it's an emotional control thing
uh no just because they're because they
have a poor concept of what emotional
control means interesting it's like
their idea it's just like yeah they
wanna they want to see like men debate
like this where they're perfectly stoic
and blah blah yeah but like that that
was like so for an example for that
debate like I would try to be less
animated than I would be I try to like
never interrupt I try to be very calm
and chill because I know that that plays
well to that audience
um when I'm doing shows like fresh and
fit for instance something that I've
said a lot to people is if you want to
convince people
um to change their ideas if you're
trying to argue against them they
believe it's really important that they
view you as like a friendly amicable
person you have to be somebody that is
like cool to them so when I'm on these
shows I make it a point to always be
having fun you're never going to see me
on like even in these really adversarial
areas where the chat is like spamming
horrible things about me I'm never like
on the show being like I disagree with
every single thing you're saying I
wanted to make you on this thing we're
going to find out like I'll be like
joking and laughing and like making fun
or whatever and I'll pick like there
will be some points like I want to fight
on this point I think you guys are super
wrong on this let's go on this or
whatever and then I'll go back to kind
of like laughing and joking but in in a
fresh and fit episode they might say a
hundred things that I disagree with I'm
only going to fight them on like five or
ten of them and on everything else I'm
gonna kind of like Vibe with them and
have fun and chill because it makes me
look a lot more friendly to the audience
and if they see that I'm capable of like
showing up and like having fun and being
cool maybe there are like some things
where it's like uh I don't fully believe
it but at least I understand your point
of view and that's like the start for me
yeah
okay so
um are you ultimately trying to win the
debate with the person you're talking to
or are you very aware that ultimately
you're talking to the audience
it's almost always talking to the
audience
um depending on the debate I'll
explicitly say that like with the
abortion debate yesterday like I think I
told the two ladies like let's be clear
here oh because one of the latest is
like have you ever considered that you
might be wrong and I was like let's be
clear here I'm an independent person on
the internet who can think whatever I
want you two literally have like 1500
member anti-abortion pro-life
organizations you guys are never
changing your mind no matter what I say
um but I'm I'm flexible to like agree
with or disagree with whatever most
people are too
um are too burdened with audience
capture to ever truly change their mind
on an issue so I'm generally not maybe I
can like at least slowly move them a
little bit on some things uh but
overwhelmingly I'm generally just
communicating to Their audience my
audience and anybody that might stumble
into the conversation from the outside
what's something you've changed your
mind on
I've changed my mind on so many things
um de-platforming is something that I
radically changed my mind my mind on I
used to think there are certain ideas
that were like kind of like so toxic to
the public discourse that they just we
shouldn't even talk about them because
they just like infect people's minds
um but then I realized for a long time
that I think the reason why they're so
toxic and infectious is the people
marketing them have done a really good
job at making them appear to be that way
when people on the left don't like spend
any time marking their ideas at all they
tell you like either believe us or
you're a bigot and you're canceled and
it's like okay so deep platforming is
something I've changed my mind a lot on
um
uh citizens united lobbying is something
that I had a huge change on
um basically like the existence of like
lobbying and super Pacs and stuff I used
to be uh seven years ago I used to think
that lobbying was the single most
important issue in the United States and
that we had to get rid of it yeah that
we shouldn't have lobbying and now when
I look at how things work in the United
States I actually think our political
system is really effective at
representing the will of Voters I think
the issue is one who's voting sometimes
um and two that the reason why the
system appears so broken is because it's
accurately accurately reflecting where
we are at as a country that we just are
divided yeah people look at Congress
like Congress can't do anything where
you know it's so partisan and divided
amongst itself and it's like okay well
in the real world I think like 60 of
Republicans still think the election was
stolen so it seems like Congress is
actually what appears to be broken it's
actually mapping on really well to what
the citizens think we just it's more
apparent in Congress well you know
people say things like you know we're
never going to get good police reform
because it's too corrupt and it's like
you're not getting good police reform
because police are controlled by your
um mayors that are voted on local
elections that have a 22 voter turnout
and the only people voting in those
elections are old wealthy white people
that aren't getting pulled over for
marijuana why the [ __ ] would the mayor
ever do anything about police reform
when all of his voters only care about
stuff that affects like older you know
middle class wealthier people like I
think a lot of problems come out but
that's something that I've like
dramatically changed my mind on
um there have probably been a few things
more but like yeah those are three off
the top of my head and so when you're
going through that process are you are
you in in a constant state of I wanna I
know that there's a flaw in my thinking
I just don't yet know where it is and so
whenever I encounter an idea even if it
runs up against something that I really
believe do you have an internal
mechanism that trips this is up
re-evaluate this
again I'm not tied to any process I just
have like a core kind of belief system I
have and if somebody's capable of
bringing up data or bringing up
something to me and it causes like I
can't account for that either I have to
figure out a better argument against
them or I just have to switch completely
I think on the citizens united thing I
used to think like Lobby in like
destroys our system blah blah and I got
into argument somebody and he asked me
he's like can you think of you keep
saying that like lobbying districts
everything can you think of one policy
that's truly popular with the American
people that like lobbyists have shut
down and there are a couple things I can
think of but it's only things if you
pull on them very simply but when you
get into the weeds it gets more
complicated and then I started to
realize like no actually I can't think
of I can't think of anything it seems
like if the American people generally
want something generally assuming
there's broad support for it it'll
usually happen and usually when people
are saying like the government's
corrupted we all want this thing but
it's not happening usually we don't all
want that thing we think we do when you
get into the weeds the answers change a
lot a really good example is
single-payer healthcare when Bernie was
pushing for it at its height you could
get like 75 percent of Americans would
agree with a statement the government
should provide health care for everybody
and all the Bernie fans to say look
there's a support for his policy right
there but if you polled do you think
that the private government or I'm sorry
do you think the government should
eliminate all private insurance and be
the Sole Provider of medical insurance
and Health Care the support drops to 25
yeah so that's like so a lot there are a
lot of issues where people like oh look
all of Americans want this and it's like
I think when you really start asking I
don't think they would brexit is another
really good example like 51 percent of
people voted to brexit but then when it
came time to figure out what does that
actually look like now you have a ton of
people like [ __ ] maybe we didn't all
agree on that so it's like really hard
to figure out what we even wanted to do
from this point yeah
yeah that is uh creating a good map of
the world is something that is
incredibly important being able to be
flexible is important something that
that I think people really struggle with
is uh what I'll call a heuristic versus
a rubric so it is very hard to hold
nuanced opinions in your head like what
you just went through where hey at one
level it seems like we all agree but if
you go two levels down we actually don't
agree it's it's just hard like that's
already a hard thing the amount of time
and attention it would take to drill
into the issue to get to that point is
going to be most people are not going to
do that
and so I think people are looking for a
heuristic so they want to rule the thumb
that rule of thumb tends to be either
somebody that I listen to on the
internet thinks this way and so I trust
them and so I'm in a wholesale buy off
or uh I'm on the left or the right and
so was what's the position right and so
I don't have to think through this on my
own and I'm just going to take that
wholesale
um
that feels like it
it creates
movements that are impossible to back
out of like they are just going to
happen and so it feels a little bit to
me alike when a car
flips over the edge of a hill it's like
there's no stopping it until it runs out
of momentum and it's smashed into a
million little pieces and it's at the
bottom there is no slowing it down and
so I'm curious do you think given that
you were saying that the division in
Congress maps to the division in reality
do you see a way will we just naturally
sort of swing back to Unity does is Ray
dalio write that basically they're most
of the time as we get divided like this
we end up colliding there's a war
there's Bloodshed and that's the only
thing that resets how do you see our
future playing out
um hopefully we come back to each other
here is so here's an issue that I try to
get people to understand that's very
very hard I know this to be true and
nobody really likes the statement
we have this default assumption that
human beings are truth-seeking machines
that is absolutely not true truth is an
instrument that we use to increase our
pleasure humans at the end of the day
are pleasure seeking or preference
seeking you can say and if you keep
thinking that humans are truth seeking
then you've got a frame of reference by
which to evaluate the world that breaks
at every single turn for instance the
internet exists today everybody should
essentially be a PhD in every subject if
you really wanted you can know anything
but clearly that's not how the internet
is used if anything the internet has
been used in some ways to further more
disinformation than ever before or more
misinformation that people are so wrong
on things right but how could that be
the case when all the information is
right there because people don't use the
information to seek truth people use the
information to make themselves happy
um
when you've got people when you've got
people in this in this mindset that
they're truth seeking then they mistake
all the pleasure seeking they do for
seeking truth that's why like I run into
so many people like oh yeah like I've
I've seen all the studies on this and I
know this is true they say I've seen all
the studies what they really mean is
they heard this on an episode of Joe
Rogan or Temple that's what they mean
and it's like you haven't seen the
studies and you're totally delusional
um when you when you think about that
particular thing so my my thesis is that
we're living in a not an unprecedented
moment in history but at a unique thing
and if you take Ray dalio's framework I
it feels directionally correct which is
that every Empire goes through six
cycles and the sixth cycle is complete
and total collapse and he pegs us at
somewhere five and a half uh phase five
oh yeah and so my concern is like the
car that goes off the the hill because
people are not thinking for themselves
largely they are taking the sort of
group stance that you end up getting
this this increasing polarization which
we've seen seen over and over in history
and as you polarize there's something
that has to bring you back together now
it can be something shared right so at
the beginning of covet I think we all
secretly hoped it was going to bring us
together and it did super super briefly
and then we rebounded way back to where
we were maybe even farther and then just
throughout history and and Ray did a
book called The Changing World Order
where he basically went over the last
500 years of History showed every Empire
that Rose every Reserve currency they
all followed this exact six phase
pattern and so there's you can just sort
of overlay where is the U.S so Ray dalio
pegs the likelihood of U.S going into a
Civil War at 40 percent and this is a
guy nobody has spent more money
researching this historical pattern and
nobody has proven that they can read the
pattern better he's built the largest
hedge fund in the world by betting on
these movements more effectively than
than anybody else and so it was pretty
unnerving for me to run into him
backstage at Dubai and
he was just like you know basically
it all comes down to how people are with
each other you want to live somewhere in
the world where people are going to be
good to each other he's like I'm hopeful
that America finds her footing but
usually at this point it it requires not
requires usually at this point what
plays out is some sort of violent
movement that redistributes wealth and
hits the reset button yeah
um you see them with Men In Black yes
okay there's a quote there's an
incredibly profound quote in that movie
um that is it's very funny I've spent a
lot of time the past few weeks thinking
about it it's when um Jay goes to K
um and he's on the bench or whatever and
he's asking him like why don't we just
reveal that aliens exist like why can't
we tell people that like people are
smart and
um Kay's response
is
or [ __ ] is it j or k I forget which one
um
I don't remember Tommy um Tommy Lee
Jones yeah Tommy Lee Jones character
responds to Wilson he's K he might I
thought he was okay he responds and he
says a person is smart people are stupid
people are dumb panicky animals and in
groups they always act in Dumb ways and
immediately that seemed like oh yeah
cool that's true like people have a lot
of when they're in big groups they do
dumb things and mobs whatever an
individual person and I started to think
about that a lot more
over the past couple weeks it's like why
is that exactly and I think that what
happens is in a one-on-one conversation
there is a lot of social pressure to at
least
let the things that I'm saying like
impact you in some way you want to hear
me you want to engage in a conversation
with me in a one-on-one conversation
people magically become very very
reasonable because there's a lot of like
social reward for doing so I'm rewarding
you by listening to you you're rewarding
Me by listening to me and we talk to
each other there's like a good thing
that's happening there but as soon as
that person turns around and goes back
to their group
there is very little social reward for
being like hey maybe we shouldn't do
this thing hey maybe we change your mind
you can get socially eviscerated for
that so there's a lot of social reward
uh there's a lot of social pressure to
100 act in accordance with the group and
when you look at the state of the United
States something scary that's happening
is it's probably okay for those groups
to exist on small levels because
different people have different
communities and you represent different
things but these groups are becoming
more dissimilar to each other and
they're becoming larger and larger and
larger and larger and larger so you're
growing these two massive groups that
are becoming ideologically pure even if
they shouldn't should a liberal in like
Seattle really have the same opinions as
like a liberal in Miami shoot a liberal
in New York really agree with the
liberal and Los Angeles maybe but they
are today right like nowadays like if
you ask half the liberals or half the
progresses in the country like who's
your favorite person in Congress they're
going to say like AOC and I was like
well who's your representative I don't
know right so you've got these groups
that are becoming huge because of the
internet and hugely ideologically
similar and I think that's like the
scary thing that's driving us apart from
each other in like a really negative way
do you see a way to back out of that
like or or is my greatest fear right
that this only runs its course when it
runs up against so much trauma that it
sort of resets everybody's group think
um yeah I mean that can happen uh we can
all start killing each other and
eventually things will change
um the optimistic path that I have is I
think people really like what I do I
think I have a lot of fans in my
audience
um I tend to work really well on every
single show I go on people like to watch
me do things there and I think part of
what people like is the idea that what
I'm trying to demonstrate is you can be
open to other people without being a
spineless [ __ ] hack by like somebody
like Dave Rubin okay like you can be
open to other ideas like listen I'll
hear you out I think you're [ __ ]
wrong but at least like I'll give you
the time of day I'll listen to and I'll
discuss like why I think you're right or
wrong I think if more people started to
take that approach I think we would be
in a much better spot for it because
right now the issue isn't that we
disagree with each other the issues we
think the other side is [ __ ] evil
like that's the problem but then also so
it's very hard to keep in mind is like
history quickly we've probably always
felt like this too to some extent so
it's hard to know like how unique it is
I think the internet makes it unique
because the communities are growing
larger and we can punish and reward each
other on larger scales I think that
makes it unique but
yeah I also have a theory about the
internet it was interesting actually
researching you
um
it's funny how you and I do very similar
things but they are really different as
you start getting under the hood of the
way that you refer to the Internet
Capital T capital I like it how do you
think of chat the internet like is it is
it a sort of living breathing organism
to you how do you think about it because
when I think about it it's servers and
um connections but it isn't uh it
doesn't have its own sort of personnel I
don't think much about it anyway it's
happening no I totally do yeah it's
definitely got its own personality it's
like a whole other world a whole other
geography with other communities and sub
communities that engage with each other
in certain ways and come together and
split apart and yeah
now is that something that people need
to become aware of if we're going to
find a path to reconciliation on words
in your mouth but easing the the pull
apart
that we have to be aware that the
internet is like a living breathing
thing yeah like do we do we have to come
to an understanding like for somebody
like me who I don't think of it like
that so am I missing an opportunity am I
tone deaf to I'm on the thing but am I
missing a way of communicating and
connecting with
um that sort of special organism in a
way that could be meaningful I mean I
think It ultimately depends on what who
you're trying to communicate with and
what you're trying to achieve so like if
your goal is to connect with Gamers on
Twitch then you need to be aware of that
world and what the rules are and how
everything works in there let me lay the
problem out maybe more clearly so what
what I see is a overarching problem that
we have is there's a breakdown of
narrative that the internet the way that
I see it is all of these it it is a
technological infrastructure that allows
for hyper fragmentation and in hyper
fragmenting and allowing people to go
down these really narrow deep rabbit
holes so with with these very fragmented
things you start to get a breakdown of
an overarching narrative and without
that overarching shared narrative this
goes back to for me and I think we agree
on this I think we live in a hyper
deterministic world and that
um the way that you say it is people may
be irrational but they're never random
yeah that feels right to me and I feel
like
there are billiard balls bouncing into
each other that if we step back we'd be
able to predict where this ends and
my fear is that we can't stop it and
that it ends somewhere in just complete
disarray and dysfunction because of the
hyper fragmentation but I really want
someone to have the Insight on how we
stop it that's my like secret thing I
don't know how realistic that is I'm
just curious have you ever played Moga
solid one or two or three or anything no
I don't even know what sounds you just
made [ __ ] solid Metal Gear Solid Metal
Gear Solid so I just didn't hear you yes
I did I played uh Metal Gear Solid 2
fanatically oh okay fanatically yes the
end of that game is unbelievably
prophetic about the state of the
internet today
[Music]
um
the whole end of so for Metal Gear Solid
2 the game plays a big bait and switch
on you because you think what you're
trying to stop at the end of the game is
a giant Mecca robot killing civilization
but at the end of the game what you're
actually stopping was the AI GW and what
and it was basically just a bunch of
statements on the problems of the
internet which were funny because this
game kind of like 1998. but basically
um what the main characters would is
like oh my God you're going to be
creating an rewriting history and what
the AIS were saying was no our goal is
not to erase content but to create
context the big problem with the
internet today is there's an ever
increasing amount of information
preserved in all of its tritiness across
servers all over the world collecting at
accelerated rates where nobody has
really any idea what's going on and
whoever can control the overall context
of the information is the one that
basically has the key to controlling the
narratives of the future Jesus yeah I
know it's funny because this game came
up before the internet really existed
it's like 1998 we're using like AOL
keywords but yeah I thought going back
and like listening to a lot of those
older conversations like Jesus Christ
but I feel like the internet today is
truly like that that there is no
overarching narrative discreetly
epistemically we live in totally [ __ ]
different worlds now right
um and that's that that's my goal is
usually there's like some
commensurability that exists in debate
that's why I like debate is because it
forces two people with dissimilar views
to have a conversation with each other
those types of conversations need to
happen way more it's really really
important and I think content creators
can be the leaders on that I think it's
possible to do that they just need to
get off their ass and do it yeah it's
amazing man if if people really Embrace
that and they took that Clarion call uh
I think it'd be interesting that was a
big part of the reason so I'm assuming
you don't know my content if you do you
certainly don't know my old content so I
used to do uh just empowering content so
it was all mindset focused and then when
the pandemic popped off I got really
scared not for myself but for other
people because I had just like just sold
my company so previously I had 3 000
employees a thousand of them grew up in
the inner cities and so I knew poverty
up close and seeing people that you love
walking towards the precipice because I
didn't know we were going to print money
so I was just like really freaked out
and so I was like God what am I going to
do so I completely changed the structure
company nice job cheers thanks man uh so
I changed the tenor of my content to try
to as rapid as rapidly as I could
address the biggest problems I thought
they were going to face so I started
diving into like finance and how to save
money and like how to weather the storm
and uh and so anyway it ends up taking
me very far afield from where I started
but
constantly trying to get to the point
where I could help people think through
think well through the problems that
they were going to face and hopefully
and look this sometimes I feel like I'm
spitting into the wind but hopefully
um
give people a framework by which we
could come back together and not have to
fly off the cliff yeah I think at the
end of the day the most important thing
that you can get people to do is a very
basic level is to talk to each other
it's I don't the problem is that like
our spaces are becoming so rapidly
divided that you can select for people
that agree with your opinion on a really
negative way I'm so lucky that I've had
a foot in both worlds because I grew up
before the internet was like really a
huge thing so even though I'm like I'm a
massive [ __ ] internet geek now right
also like people like oh like what's it
like living in Miami Beach and it's like
my apartment is air conditioned it was
really the only thing that [ __ ]
matters to me so I'm very much like an
online [ __ ] gig guy but I love real
world interactions if I can talk to
people in the real world if I can hang
out people I can speak in front of
people that's super fun for me I love it
nothing online replaces that
um there's something to be said for
interacting with different types of
people in real life because you have no
[ __ ] idea one what a person is
actually liking two the appetite that
you can have for so many different types
of people people like when you get on
Tinder and people start talking like oh
I wouldn't date him he's a republican oh
I wouldn't date her she's got burnt hair
oh I wouldn't be with that guy he's not
religious like people like try to hyper
select for their groups of friends
online and [ __ ] and the reality is is
you can meet some people that are
surprisingly different from you in so
many ways and you can still get along
with them have fun and like be chilling
stuff but um it's getting harder and
harder to create like those warm spaces
where people can just be together and be
talking with each other because uh man I
remember dude even I do events like in
um in Tennessee and Alabama and [ __ ] I
think uh I think it was in Tennessee
where I'm in very conservative areas
giving speeches and like fighting with a
lot of like really conservative people
and even when I go to the end a lot of
people coming out that are even fans of
mine are fans of the other guy that I'm
debating they're conservative
um I remember one of these things I had
um one of my fans came out to this and
she's a trans trans woman and just I
think that them interacting with her
over like a two-hour dinner probably did
more in their minds to like positively
impact their view of trans people than
like a million hours of YouTube content
ever could because it's I've said this
before oh [ __ ] here I'll give another
example I know this from the world of
gaming it is very hard to be mean to
people on voice chat if you play CS go I
don't know if it's true on Destiny some
people can voice chat some people can
type if you were to play like CS go and
you hop into a game and somebody's
typing that guy is always the rager
they're always gonna start talking [ __ ]
because it's just it's too hard to be
mean to somebody when you hear like a
human voice so bringing back these like
spaces where we can be like talking to
each other like face to face and not
like [ __ ] screaming each other and
dehumanizing each other on the internet
I don't know how you do it but it ties
into that problem with women too where
it's like for men dealing with women
we're like if you want to get good at
talking to women you have to talk to
more women just be in spaces with them
if you want to get good at like
humanizing the the
um political politically different
people then you you just have to be
space where you're talking with them and
communicating with them yeah yeah no
doubt
tell me about your experience with drugs
I have seriously contemplated uh doing
um psychedelics and honestly the only
reason I haven't is because they are
illegal in California but I was recently
in New York had I had one more day I was
literally in the store holding a packet
of mushrooms and I'm like uh like how
long do they last and as it turned out
he was like oh it's like four hours and
it might mess up your sleeve and I was
like [ __ ] then I can't do it tonight
because I had to do something next day
uh and then that was the only day that I
was there so I ended up not doing it but
I know that you've had some
experimentation your first one didn't go
well but seems like you've done since
then and yeah um different drugs do
different things you could take them for
different reasons just a drug is a drug
it'll alter your experience the altered
experience can give you a lot of
perspective on your normal experiences
though
um you said something a couple hours ago
about and maybe want to bring up drugs
you said something about how I think it
was like people needing to realize how
important like the emotional aspect of
themselves are it was something along
those lines
um I don't remember the context was we
were talking about this but when you
said that uh something that I wanted to
respond to this if you want to
understand how much like your mood or
your emotions or your environment
affects you a really good way to learn
that is to do a lot of drugs when it
comes to psychedelics I always assume
before doing mushrooms that like
especially me I'm a very logical person
so my mind is for like 95 logic and
reason and like five percent like mood
and dumb [ __ ] that I'm above and beyond
and after doing mushrooms like breaking
apart my mind a lot and becoming more
aware of myself I see now that I'm like
10 to 15 is like very logically driven
and there's this whole emotional site
underneath that I have to pay attention
to because it can totally run all my
other processes arrive I'm not like
cognizant of what's going on
um that's interesting yeah so there was
a quote I'm going to paraphrase that you
said about your first experience
and you said it was deeply unpleasant
you were trying to explain it to
somebody and you said it made me realize
I felt like I had pierced through a veil
to a deeper truth and I realized that
sometimes the truth doesn't isn't good
or doesn't make you happy I forget the
exact quote but it was like truth isn't
always good and I was like whoa yeah oh
I said this earlier the truth is
instrumental for pleasure it's not
actually a good thing um this is just a
weird thing but um it's gonna be real
it's gonna sound really weird and hard
to explain okay
um for okay just for a quick perspective
if somebody wants to take a fun dose of
mushrooms if it's your first time you
don't think a fun dose and you want to
see things and maybe feel things two
grams is like a really good starter dose
maybe one if you want to be really safe
two is probably a good soda dose
um 3.5 votes what's recommended to have
like a full mushroom trip so you're
gonna like go places a little bit you're
gonna have like a really fun time you're
going to see a lot of things you're
going to be very high it's going to be
very intense once you go to like five
grams and Beyond you're in like some
like other worldly territory
the first time that I wanted to do
mushrooms I was with a friend I smoked a
bit of weed and done Edibles and stuff
and the impact that they had on me prior
to mushrooms was just kind of like I was
like giggly and happy whatever and so I
was like I want to just I'm gonna have a
full mushroom trip [ __ ] this [ __ ] okay
so um instead of doing two grams I
decided to do 3.5 so I want my full trip
and I'm sitting there on the couch and
all I'm thinking is 30 minutes goes past
and I'm like I know it's gonna happen
I'm gonna get high it's gonna be
giggling [ __ ] stupid and all these
people that said that like psychedelics
are like crazy blah blah blah they're
gonna say oh it's because you didn't do
enough blah blah so I decided to eat
another seven grams of mushrooms what
the hell so how'd you pick that number
um because I well they were separated in
bags 3.5 each so I took my bag and then
I just took two more bags and I just ate
it all without talking to anybody uh
well there's another guy there and he
was like are you sure you're reckful we
actually was a guy who's streaming the
cone stuff but um not because of that
sorry but uh reckful was there and he
was like are you sure you want to do
this like yeah I wanna have the worst
trip possible I just want let's make
this the most insane [ __ ] because [ __ ]
it why not
um
and yeah so for about an hour passed and
then I started to see I started to get
high which was like really cool the
colors on the wall I've never seen
anything like it and then about 30
minutes later I'm like in tunnels of
[ __ ] black [ __ ] everything about
my entire reality is being shattered and
[ __ ] destroyed for the next like
three or four hours
um in the process of that happening uh a
couple of weird things happen so at one
part of this trip I am very much a lot
of this is hard to describe because it's
feelings more so than just things you're
seeing but like a feeling that I got and
there were a lot of different feelings
but at one point I'm like basically
sitting on the couch and I kind of
realized that like I had taken enough
drugs to break out of whatever [ __ ]
I was talking before and now I
discovered like the true reality and the
true Universe was me sitting on this
couch with three other beings watching a
universe TV that does nothing and this
whole room is like the entire [ __ ]
this is everything and I just remember
thinking while I was in that state I was
thinking the whole time I was like I
made a mistake I actually don't even
care that this is reality I understand
the other thing was fake but I really
just want to go back back to the other
thing where I thought other people were
real and there was a whole universe
people interact with because this is
horrible and obviously coming at a trip
there were a whole bunch of other phases
to that trip too we decided took way too
many mushrooms but coming out of that I
remember it was like that was a little
bit of an interesting thing he's like I
always would have thought that like no
matter how bad the truth is I always
want to know what's true and real but
when I dig in a little bit deeper that's
not actually true the only truth that I
really want is truth that I can act on
to make my life better and generally
every single truth you learn usually you
can do that but there's probably a lot
of truths out there that are not like do
I really want to know what's on like the
other side of the moon if there's like
nothing I'm ever going to do with that
knowledge probably not
um and even if I think of like
uncomfortable truths usually they're
truths that I can act on to make my life
better so for instance let's say
somebody says well here's an
uncomfortable truth you're gonna die
tomorrow like uh you know wouldn't you
want to know that or I bet you'd want to
know that but that's not a good truth is
it and it's like well no that is a good
truth because I knew I was going to die
tomorrow I would act on that information
today I'd contact loved ones gamble all
my money do whatever you know
um yeah but that was like a thing
yeah that was just like one thing that
why why do it again like if it's so
horrible I like to live my life turned
up to 11 okay
um I don't know it was a really it's you
have a weird relationship with things
that suck maybe but it's very
challenging and it's very cool it's
there's like the crazy thing you're
gonna how old are you have you do you
ever say or oh yeah I'm not I'm an open
book uh I am 47. okay I was 30 even and
it was like still like so long at 47
when you take psychedelics it's gonna
blow your [ __ ] mind because there is
a whole other you ever play Zelda
growing up a little bit yeah [ __ ] and a
lot of Zelda games was like the first
world and then you unlock the second
world usually through a master sword or
through some other thing there's like a
whole second world right now that exists
you've never had access to before
and it sounds stupid saying that but
when you do hopefully if you do if you
try mushrooms or LSD for the first time
it's going to be like a whole other it's
so amazingly unbelievably cool and it's
hard because the only perspective you
have on right now you drink uh a little
bit it's nothing like being drunk
because a lot of people think that
psychedel is just like oh like you're
like Goofy and weird it's you it's it's
like an otherworldly Lucidity it's not
just like you're like I'm so high it's
like you're sober in another dimension
it's like a whole other [ __ ] thing
it's so cool sorry so Sam Harris is this
funny this is my only I did micro dose
psilocybin and I felt like I was getting
tipsy it was yeah you'll feel like yeah
I was hoping it would make me more
creative it didn't so I was like
whatever
um but Sam Harris's description of five
grams which is crazy that you did 10 and
a half uh was that he was like I forgot
that I even took drugs it was completely
horrible and you think it's Gonna Last
Forever yes and I was just like oh God
uh I don't get why we're doing this like
the experiences are totally totally
totally different so like let me give
you an example right so like from that
10 gram trip right first of all the
passage of time is on you can't it
doesn't right there are times where I
would like let me give you an example
for my trip so here's a time where like
I would kind of like come in and I'd
like kind of feel out and when I would
sink back I would have all these
thoughts about being in houses or
streets like I'm living like months of
time and do they all feel meaningful
um some of them do not all of them do
but I recorded this trip it's on my
YouTube channel and when I play back
when I look at like these moments in
time you recorded this yeah because I
wanted to because it was a crazy
interesting yeah I want to see what does
it look like on the outside I gotta
watch this and uh when I look at the
when I look at this thing happening so I
feel like I'm going back having like
months of time past them coming back
when I watch the video what I look like
is
huh
uh it's like two seconds of time is
passing and the passenger time is
totally [ __ ] on psychos there were so
many times I pick up my phone because
it's like 9 42 and I'll set my phone
down and I'm just like it's so much is
like going on and then I'll pick up my
phone again and it's like it's still 9
42. not even a minute is Passion I'm
like no shot
um it's just a crazy crazy crazy
interesting but so that's like an
example and then there's also the like
at the peak of the trip I'm like I can't
see anything I'm like floating another
dimension I don't even remember myself I
remember like a thing that used to be
called me I'm like completely blasted
out of like yeah like you got to pick my
buddy of a movie around I would have any
connection to the outside world that's
like a crazy trip a more fun trip
um is like uh you do psychedelics the
come up on mushrooms make pretty rough
but eventually what will happen is is
like you could be like in this other
world where your state of perception is
completely altered and if you're if it's
really fun and special you're with
another person and you can talk and have
a conversation and you're just you're
connecting on like levels of deepness
never even knew that you had with
another person who's connecting on a
level of deepness that you never knew
they had and you're doing it in this
totally altered state of mind where the
colors are different where things are
swirling your feelings are different and
it's like so magical and cool and
special it's like you're going to like
Disney World in Your Mind except you're
still like nine years old and you
appreciate it all
um it's very very very very very very
very very cool and nothing is quite like
it ever and for like for LST you can do
this for 12 hours for five bucks
yeah so not all of it has to be like
traumatic and horrible and terrible like
on certain doses just so much fun we did
um I did LSD like a week ago with my
wife and like walking outside on LSD
it's just like seeing like the trees and
how vibrant everything is walking around
the city you hear everything I hear
people talking in alley I hear the
sounds of the cars everything is like
three-dimensional and Rich and vibrant
it sucks I like explain this but you
know like when you try you'll we'll have
another conversation okay and then
you'll come back and like it was
everything you said or more it's crazy
yeah no I can't wait to try it actually
pretty intriguing yeah brother where can
people follow you uh youtube.com Destiny
instagram.com Destiny and kik.com there
it is all right everybody if you haven't
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next time my friends be legendary take
care peace
if you want to know what it means to be
a real man be sure to watch this episode
with Chris Williamson it is a
challenging time to be a man at the
moment and it doesn't surprise me that
guys are retreating into porn and video
games becoming nihilistic or cynical