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Language: en
and your new book makes a pretty bold
assertion that I would like to get
straight into around fat and that being
fat does not necessarily mean that
you're metabolically unhealthy that was
scandalous when I read it so how can
that be true now listen I'm going to
throw myself under the bus here
when I was in medical school I was given
the same lecture about metabolism that
pretty much you can look up on Wikipedia
you know it's a blah blah blah blah blah
chemical reactions and everybody assumes
that has these assumptions about body
fat and Metabolism right so you're born
with the faster a slow metabolism and if
you're born with a slow metabolism
you're going to struggle with your food
because you're going to actually gain a
lot of body fat and struggle with your
weight that's what a lot of people feel
people always feel that like your
metabolism is gonna shoot up when you're
a teenager
eating two or three dinners bouncing off
the wall full of energy must be
metabolism going up and then of course
the the main thing is that people in
their middle age you know like 30 is
sort of like the last Golden Era of
Fitness once you get to 40 45 50 55
menopause you know all that kind of
stuff your shape's gonna change because
your metabolism is going to slow down
you're going to gain body fat because of
a slow metabolism and so I always wanted
to figure out all right
why does all that happen and is it
actually true that we're born with
different metabolisms and Metabolism
naturally slows as we get older and that
being fat is bad for you this is the
part that I consider scandalous well
here's the thing
being fat is a subjective statement what
I would actually say that that that my
my book addresses is that body fat isn't
harmful in normal at a normal level fat
is actually good
the big Discovery is that fat is an
actual organ in your body that forms
when you're in the womb and in fact if
you didn't have body fat you wouldn't
have a metabolism you need body fat it
creates hormones that drive that fuel
your metabolism it sounds kind of weird
like it like it would be the opposite
but in fact if you didn't have body fat
you wouldn't have any energy all right
it's only when you have too much body
fat
that that basically the entire system
goes into chaos all right too much body
fat a little bit of body fat is like air
traffic control running the way it is
landing planes taking them off the
Runway too much body fat is basically
like uh putting a a rock and roll band
into air traffic control tower all right
and playing as loud as they can having
the crowds Rush In And now the air
traffic controllers are distracted don't
know what to do and extra body fat
derails your metabolism so it's not a
slow metabolism causes you to gain body
fat and gain weight it's the other way
around
extra body fat slows your metabolism so
it's not quite right that being fat is
good
having fat is good having too much fat
is bad well let me ask a really pointed
question yeah that I took away from your
book that you're gonna say yes to this
but I maybe not uh in the book The
paraphrase that I wrote down was being
big isn't necessarily bad and so what I
want to know is can you be
clinically obese and be healthy like
could you when you look at somebody when
I'll I'll say it from my perspective
when I look at somebody who's clinically
obese with love in my heart I just think
they're killing themselves and just by
seeing that they're obese I know they're
unhealthy but when I was reading your
book it made it sound like I can't make
that assumption they may be because it
certainly isn't automatic that having
that kind of body fat is good
but it may not be as automatic as I
thought that that kind of body fat is
bad great point to discuss so body size
is different than body fat and obesity
so people are big they can be they can
have big body size I mean think about a
heavyweight boxer or an Olympian who
actually you know is a weight lifter
those are big people let's go to the
example you give in the book which is a
sumo wrestler exactly I was going to
bring that up so I look at a sumo
wrestler and I just assume they die
young 100 no offends or butts they are
going to Die Young the amazing thing is
that they are actually at a peak of
Fitness uh when they're actually
training and they're overloading their
bodies and they've develop that shape
they're very strong they're
metabolically stable uh they don't
actually have problems with glucose
regulations what is metabolically stable
mean it means that they are able to
process their food without having huge
insulin spikes it means that they're
they have normal levels of energy their
inflammation levels are not through the
roof which by the way is a matter of
training sleep discipline food their
diet is very specific as well but the
point is that if a sumo wrestler isn't
tragically ill for the period of their
career we do need to rethink just
because you're big doesn't mean that
you're sick now chronic obesity coupled
with poor diet coupled with the least
inflammation coupled with poor sleep
coupled with stress coupled with lack of
physical activity okay that is sort of
that's the that's the train wreck that
actually begins to happen what do we
know about longevity of sumo wrestlers
do they because like you'll often hear
the statement and I haven't looked
closely enough of the data to know if
this is true but it seems intuitively
true that you don't get heavy set
centenarians like people that make it to
that age they're all going to be thin
uh I don't think that's necessarily true
it's what we would imagine to be true uh
I think people can be portly they could
be middling is there any data on this I
don't know of any data that takes a look
at you know uh I mean look I I I I think
that what you're trying to get at is is
there evidence that obesity actually is
not harmful but helpful perhaps and that
you could have better longevity by being
having X carry on excess body fat and
the answer is no yeah I'm going to say
your book paints a far more nuanced
picture and so the the
nitty-gritty that I want to get into is
around that so the case that I'm trying
to build to see if I can get myself on
board with this idea because reading
that and I happen to be researching two
people right now that are both making a
very similar claim in their books and I
was so literally in the last 48 hours I
feel like I've had my world upended and
it's like oh the Earth is is round it's
not flat what and so so I I feel on
unshaky ground so here's how I read your
book okay there is a sweet spot you can
be too fat and you can not have enough
fat but there are two times in the book
where you say that actually being skinny
is the more dangerous thing and so you
said you're far more likely to die of
all cause mortality if you're
underweight than if you're overweight so
that was startling statistic number one
and then the other one was that if
you're if you have lean diabetes which
I've never even heard that phrase before
but I get it what I used to call skinny
fat so if you have lean diabetes you
have the blood markers like if I was
looking at your blood panel because
metabolically you're just a mess I would
assume that you were obese but in
reality you're not that that's more
dangerous 2.5 times you're more likely
to die I don't know I can't remember if
it's all cause mortality or heart
disease or whatever but you were two and
a half times more likely to something
terrible uh if you were lean diabetes
and if you were obese and had diabetes
so I was like whoa this really does feel
like the table's been upended yeah well
so let's kind of do a reset to say what
does body fat actually do okay and and
and I you know so as I was writing this
book because I'm very curious about
where things come from where does fat
come from fat isn't you know we
associate fat as adults as you know
something we see in the mirror and when
you step out of the shower and we might
not like what we're seeing or step on a
scale and you look at a number somewhat
You're Expecting and you kind of curse
it right or if you go up to the grocery
store and you walk by the butcher
section the meat section you see nice
steak with a big rind of fat on it you
go ugh like it's it's we're we're as a
society
I think that we have some repulsion to
the idea of seeing anything that's
associated with fat but it turns out
that it's not always true when we look
at babies
when babies make us smile they're pudgy
they're fat big pot bellies big fat
cheeks or arms and legs are like
balloons Twisted together like in the
you know in a carnival it's cuter than a
baby it's not not cute like if I rolled
out of the shower looking like Twisted
balloons I would not be impressed that's
true but on the other hand if you had a
baby that had chiseled cheekbones long
thin arms long thin thighs like a like a
runway model that would also not be cool
you would think that that baby is sick
and indeed it would be and so the real
question that I started asking is what
is the developmental role and what is
the adult role of body fat when does it
start and what does it do over the
course of our lifetime because you talk
about longevity so what is actually this
thing called fat actually do where does
it start and where does it go so here's
actually the interesting thing body fat
starts in the womb uh at about eight
weeks after your mom's egg met your
dad's sperm and the first tissue that
gets laid down are blood vessels because
every organ needs a circulation then the
next tissue are nerves because you need
instruction options to be able to
operate your organs and the nerves can
convey those instructions another tissue
that forms right after that is fat
fat the cells that comprise fat are
called adipocytes okay adipose tissue
adipocytes and the way that they form
looks like bubble wrap you know the
bubble wrap you use for packing right
the small bubble wrap and what they do
it's like they bubble wrap around blood
vessels and you go like okay so they're
not forming like in the waist or the
butt right away why do they form around
blood vessels well it turns out this has
to do with a later fate of what the fat
cells actually do for you fat cells one
of the functions that they do uh they're
padding okay so good thing we have fat
to Pat us so we didn't have any body fat
we slipped on a rug fell on the ground
our organs might rupture all right so
padding is good number two fat and this
has to do with the blood vessels fat
cells are fuel tanks for our energy all
right so our metabolism relies on fuel
tanks just like your car relies on some
kind of either a battery or a fuel tank
and when your fuel runs low
you gotta actually go to The Filling
Station or the charging station to tank
up
fill up on your your fuel for your car
similarly when our fuel tanks run low in
our body under healthy conditions okay
uh are we we have to go pull over to The
Filling Station what happens to be a
dinner table a refrigerator pantry
restaurant to be able to fill up on our
energy which comes from our food and our
metabolism uses all the energy its needs
to kind of run its operating system so
blinking heart beating walking around
but anything extra gets stored in those
adipocytes into our fat now why are they
near blood vessels because when you
swallow food you digest it from your
stomach it gets absorbed or your small
intestines gets absorbed into your
bloodstream and guess where the energy
needs to get stored right in the fuel
tank right out of the blood vessel so
from a time where babies before we're
born that's where the fuel tanks are all
right and that's what one of the things
that it does padding fuel tank the third
the third thing that fat does for normal
healthy function for metabolism for
health health is it actually is an
endocrine organ
so our fat releases hormones normal
healthy hormones for our metabolism at
least 15 hormones have been identified
from fat that fat makes almost you
exclusively and three of them are
critical for having normal energy normal
a metabolism our fat controls normal
metabolism in healthy people so what are
they what are the three hormones that I
want to talk about number one uh
something called leptin now you might
have heard of leptin as sort of like the
satiety hormone it makes you feel full
but I like to explain leptin as a volume
switch when you actually have a lot of
leptin you are not that hungry but if
you can talk you can it's not a toggle
but you can actually turn it down when a
leptin goes lower you got to fill up in
your fuel tank because you're hungry so
it's part of our gas our fuel gauge to
let us know if we're hungry we need to
fill up or not okay so very important
because we didn't know we didn't fill
our tanks we'd starve all right it's a
signal second there's a hormone called
adiponectin
okay and many of your listeners may not
know what a typical necton is I'll tell
you uh uh if I uh Tom uh took you into a
medical clinic Drew your blood for a
regular physical exam and told the lab
from our vial of blood to measure every
hormone in your body and tell me what
the levels were including adiponecton
that a dipanectin in your body would be
one thousand times higher than any other
hormone in your body it's a thousand now
why is it that important because a
dipinectin is which is made by fat is
what allows insulin to bring fuel into
your body is it a is it a molecule
that's calling for fat is it saying or
for the insulin to come and store it
partners with insulin to make insulin's
effect of bringing in your blood glucose
more efficient it actually insulin will
do its job adiponectin will do it a lot
better in fact so what happens is that
if you screw up your fat and you don't
make a dippinectin so let's say ultra
skinny somebody with less than five
percent body fat like bodybuilder type
all right they're not having a lot of
adiponectin they actually have problems
with energy because they don't have
enough fats
to have their insulin working okay I'm
not following though why why does it why
do we need such a high quantity and do
you know the mechanism of action what is
it actually doing so I have a visual I
can put around what insulin does in
terms of coming to the cell looking for
insulin receptors and actually shuttling
typically glucose into the cell to
actually store it as adipose tissue but
I don't know what a different neck and
binds to it's a different receptor on
the same cell that insulin does and it
actually helps insulins function it
actually triggers the the pathway that
it allows insulin to bring in that
energy more efficiently swifter it's
kind of like uh
uh wd-50 is kind of like the grease to
allow insulin to actually bring that
fuel in you don't have it around you'll
insulin still work but not quite as
efficiently your diseases were uh
dependectin is uh it breaks down and we
start having problems and if so what
does that look like well you know I
think that uh there are inherited
diseases where a dipinecta may be
affected and you know people might not
survive they can't their metabolism it's
like inherited disorders of metabolism
would it have the same result as insulin
resistance where you just can't produce
enough to get it it kind of like is like
insulin resistance like insulin is not
not performing uh what it uh what it
wants to actually do and do you know
does the body respond to that by
producing more insulin thinking like oh
this is I just need to keep shoving more
in to get this out of the Bloodstone to
see if they can so insulin levels will
rise and so basically if you have too
low amounts of body fat you don't have
enough adiponectin all right um what
happens is that your insulin's not
functioning properly your body will make
more insulin to see if it's maybe the
problem is insulin let's make some more
insulin so that's if you have too low
body fat similarly if you've got too
much body fat all right by the way
before we go there a dipinectin brings
the the energy helps insulin bring the
energy in a third hormone made by fat
it's called resistant if a dipinectin is
the gas pedal resistant is the break so
you're you're you're you're eating fuel
you're you're eating food you want fuel
insulin is going to store it into your
cells so you're in the fast lane now a
dipinectin goes boom pedal to the metal
let's get in the fast lane to make our
metabolism as efficient as possible
let's bring that energy in baby all
right resistant is the break up got a
truck ahead slow down not so fast all
right and so this gas pedal break
accelerator and Brake works all the time
to help fine-tune our metabolism at
different points of the day very very
important too little fat like Ultra lean
bodybuilding you know or starvation you
know uh type of situation you don't have
enough addicted nectar you're going to
be very very weak and your insul is
going to try to rise to compensate but
still is not working efficiently that's
how important it is now the other side
of the spectrum all right if you have
too much body fat
this is where fat functions like a
cancer
so fat like any organ requires a blood
supply but if you actually overeat and
you have too much fuel stored it's like
going to the gas station and instead of
having to click in the nozzle when your
tank is full there's no click it just
keeps on pouring out gasoline what's
going to happen in your car gas tank
fills up the gas the fuel runs out of
the tank down the side of the car around
your tires around pools around your feet
and now in a gas station you're standing
in a toxic flammable dangerous mess now
in your body we don't also we don't have
an automatic clicker so to stop all we
do is we can keep on eating seconds
third something delicious or maybe even
worse something not good for you like
Ultra processed foods or sodas and you
just keep on slugging it down your
metabolism is your is going to store it
into body fat and now your body fat can
expand 300 times its size now you cannot
see body fat uh with a naked eye you
need a microscope to see the cell of
body fat but once it blows up 300 times
you can actually start to see these fat
cells all right so you keep on eating it
blows up more keep on eating it blows up
more more fat stored more energy stored
oh run out of fat cells for your fuel
tanks are all stuffed up
your body will tap into stem cells to
make more fat cells and now those will
get filled up as well so you can see how
overloading on fuel when does it start
so when you get something like a
non-alcoholic fatty liver disease uh I
assume we've filled up all of our cells
that's right we're not able to make new
cells fast enough exactly and so now is
is
glycerides what happens is that the fuel
leaks out of the fat cells in what form
it's actually like squeezing out uh well
it it's it's stored in a particular
triglyceride form in the cell but when
it leaks out it starts to really become
uh different types of short medium and
long chain fatty acids that are just
seeping out okay of our of our of our
fat cells stay in the blood how do we
get to something like non-alcoholic
fatty liver yeah so chronic overeating
is basically like chronically
overfilling your gas tank the fuel is
going to start leaking out of the cells
out of the fat cells and it actually
goes right into your bloodstream yeah
and because your liver detoxifies your
blood it goes straight to the liver and
unfortunately fat in that leaking form
is toxic to liver cells so as the liver
is trying to clean up your blood to
detoxify it the fat toxins the leaked
fat toxins kill your liver injure your
liver which then leads to scarring which
then leads to non-alcoholic fatty liver
disease interesting so it's not actually
an accumulation of fat
on the cells of the liver which is what
I was imagining I was imagining like
visceral fat on the liver but it's not
it's scarring the liver it's actually
destroying it I mean first offense
actually does accumulate but then it's
toxic all right is it accumulating
around the liver in the same way that it
would accumulate around other organs or
is it because it's trying to process it
out it infiltrates the liver so if so
you know if you if you look at a a CAT
scan of somebody who has uh visceral fat
or a lot of subcutaneous fat you'll see
a rind of the fat in different parts of
the body in the liver it's much more
nefarious when fat accumulates in the
liver it kind of penetrates the spaces
between the cells and just gets stuck
there just get stuck there and while
it's stuck there it poisons and it's
toxic to the liver cells so it's fat
plus liver the liver cells are dying the
fats are still there and then when the
cells are dying uh you know your body's
trying to clean it up autophagy and all
that other kind of stuff except that
there's it can't regenerate fast enough
Liberation regenerates can't regenerate
fast enough and the toxicity causes
inflammation of the liver and then the
inflammation kills the liver more and
then scarring sets in and now you've
basically replaced normal liver cells
with hard scar
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so if we catch that early can we reverse
it in diet
we can but the problem is that
non-alcoholic fatty liver disease is
kind of just slowly sneaking up on you
disease most of the time like by the
time you know you have a problem or the
doctor can detect you have a problem
it's really the end result it's the car
crash you know that was happening in
slow motion for years right but so and
and by the way this is actually one of
the big epidemics it's a pandemic really
of the non-alcoholic fatty liver disease
it's the number one reason for having
liver transplants now wow used to be
alcohol
no more or hepatitis no more it's now
overload of fuel leaking toxic fat that
scars your liver shuts it down and now
you need a liver transplant okay so uh
why does alcohol create fatty liver
disease I get why overeating and you
just literally run out of storage space
which means it's in your blood which
means the liver is trying to clean it up
but with alcohol why isn't it just
scarring from alcohol when does it
become fat got it so look check this out
alcohols directly toxic to your body and
the liver is very sensitive because the
liver is desperately trying to detoxify
the body metabolism alcohol into you
know something less toxic all right so
on one hand too much alcohol it's not
you know it's not a glass of wine it's
not a beer it's chronic alcoholism that
actually weighs on the liver by
poisoning the liver direct toxicity but
guess what alcohol is the sugar
so alcohol itself is overloading your
cells you gotta It's gotta it's gonna be
stored into the fat which is still then
running into the same problem so is it
literally uh it starts as your cells are
trying your liver's breaking it down
sending it to be stored you're
overfilling your cells it's coming in
too fast to make new cells it's leaking
back out of the cell and now the liver
is trying to clean up the fat and that's
then now we have the exact same problem
that is one of the common Pathways
however don't forget alcohol that We Sip
we drink we chug all right the you know
the keg party that alcohol is right in
our blood and goes straight to the liver
all right where it's poison delivered so
basically I'm trying to figure out why
it's called fatty alcohol disease like
why why I if if it is what we just went
through and at first it overwhelms your
metabolism your fat stores are kicking
it back out because it's just too much
too fast right and then we're back into
the liver then I understand the process
if it isn't that I don't so let me ask
the question a slightly different way
okay you're a medical doctor if I set
before you a liver that had
alcohol-driven fatty liver disease and I
set one in front of you that had
non-alcoholic fatty liver disease could
you tell the difference or they would
look different on the microscope because
the alcohol itself poisons the liver so
it's basically uh uh you you see
alcoholic livers are actually shrunken
they're not as fatty so you call it a
fatty alcohol disease it's alcoholic
livers are shrunken because actually
they're poisoned and they start to
decrease it's true some fat can
accumulate because alcohol itself gets
metabolized and stored into fat so over
time and by the way this is not a it's
like I said it's not a TR it's not a
light switch it's not like if you don't
drink you're going to be fine if you
drink you're going to be cook your goose
is cooked this is a matter of degree
if you abuse your if you abuse food even
healthy foods every abused drink over
time these are the kinds of things that
can actually happen so moderation
self-control discipline taking it easy
you know fasting you're going to go
there all those things can actually
contribute to reversing the good thing
about the liver is that it's one of the
organs in our body that clearly
regenerates at a very very fast pace
there's not that many organs that can
actually do it quickly but deliver
if I took your liver and removed any
operating two-thirds of your liver the
one-third that's remaining will grow the
rest of it back over the course of a
year
so injure livers if you give it a break
cut down on your food intake your
caloric intake
stop drinking
the damage will start to reverse even if
you have scarring
well at the point of scarring
no that's there forever that's that's
why you would then be could you go cut
out like let's say that uh two-thirds of
your liver is scarred could you go in
and cut out a third or a half and get
that to then regenerate I assume it
would regenerate Health you know
unfortunately the damage can be very
very uniform so you sort of just need to
replace it that's why liver transplants
common interesting okay I'll believe you
obviously know so much more about it it
seems like you should be able to cut a
piece off and have it grow back but well
it will try to grow back except that
once you've actually replaced healthy
liver cells called hepatocytes with scar
tissue there's not enough cells working
cells left to regenerate God right so
and by the way when you regenerate when
the liver regenerates it needs to grow
within a happy medium of its own uh
architecture it needs to be in the
garden of the liver but when the garden
of the liver is filled with scar tissue
it can't doesn't have enough stuff to
hang on to it can't reform a healthy
liver you've got scar that's kind of on
the interstices it's kind of penetrated
the liver mostly scar tissue and and you
can't grow back right what has started
you won't do the Regeneration process it
not only won't it'll actually start any
cells that do want to regenerate it'll
block their path because it's in the way
so you can't replace the scar wow okay
that sucks
um I want to go back to the sumo
wrestler so that we can get to the the
full picture here of what I'm really
trying to understand okay so we know you
need some fat one of the earliest things
that you get as a fetus is fat super
important we find babies cute because
they're pudgy because pudgy is good for
them as we get older I know that we have
a deeper road to go down which will
probably go down after we finish the
Sumo thing of these phases of metabolism
but it's uh you need some fat for many
reasons but I certainly before reading
your book and I think even still I think
you're going to say this is true that
there is a point at which you become too
fat and now the fat becomes problematic
and I'm wondering is that point you're a
hundred percent fine it is not
negatively impacting your health in any
way as long as the fat isn't being
squeezed back out
or is there like a BMI that you sort of
Ballpark and say look if as long as
you're under 15 body fat for a guy and
23 body fat for a woman though I'm
making those numbers up but like you're
fine
um is it that or is it no as long as it
doesn't squish back out you're good it
has to do with the fact that every
individual has their own optimal amount
of fat in their body that they carry
around and how do you know when it
becomes a problem what are the signals
the you know the metabolism is a great
actually clue uh obviously you can
measure so first of all fat comes in
different forms white fat Brown fat the
white fat can be under the skin
subcutaneous Under the Skin why don't
you break down real fast what what is
white fat okay white fat is the most
common fat it's most of the fat in our
body and it looks white Under the
microscope and it can be located in two
and it functions it's a fuel tank it
actually
um uh that gives a padding and it can be
located in two main areas one is under
the skin which you can see that's the
wiggly jiggly lumpy bumpy stuff that you
see in the mirror it's the muffin top
it's the thigh and butt it's the stuff
under the arm under the chin that's
subcutaneous you can see it then a more
dangerous version of white of white fat
is called visceral fat visceral means
gut so this is the fat that's packed
inside the tube of your body all right
so you could be thin it'd be looking
thin have a thin tube but have a lot of
fat in there or you could be a big
person with a and and have a lot of
extra fat as well or maybe not so much
fat you're just you just got a big frame
all right the amount of visceral fat
turns out to make a big uh have an
impact it's a more deadly kind of fat
visceral fat think about it like um
peanuts that you put into a container
you're shipping like you go to a FedEx
and you're going to ship some light some
fluorescent light bulbs so you're going
to ask for a thin box and now you got to
pad that light bulb so you can ask for
some peanuts you can buy a big pack of
peanuts you're going to throw them in
and you've got just enough but yeah I
don't waste the peanuts I'm going to
stuff them all in there okay and now
you've actually put way too many peanuts
for that box but you can force them in
there so much that the peanuts are
actually choking the light bulbs Force
the Box shut tape it shut at arm's
length that's still a skinny box but
inside the peanuts are killing the light
bulbs that's what can happen that's what
skinny fat is when you have too much
visceral gut fat it's like a baseball
glove of fat wrapped around your organs
and it's filled with inflammation when
it's too big now the reason that big
huge amounts of fat become dangerous is
because they outstrip their blood supply
when you have normal amounts of fat
they're fed like every other organ in
your body but with blood vessels you
need oxygen you need nutrients into your
blood vessels this is what I study it's
a process called angiogenesis how blood
vessels grow and when fat expands
because you're loading up the fuel okay
before it leaks you're loading up the
field it's going to grow now now you're
loading it we need some more more fat
cells to grow if when it when it starts
to grow Beyond its blood supply you can
fill it up much faster than the blood
vessels can grow then what happens in
the center of that mass of fat it starts
to die it doesn't have enough oxygen and
it doesn't have enough oxygen it starts
to die you get inflammation once
inflammation gets into that massive
white fat in your gut the visceral fat
think about that skinny FedEx pack with
too many peanuts or it could be a big
package as well all right it's also got
too much packing in it then what happens
that inflammation completely Causes
Chaos among the hormones that are there
now that fat that was making leptin
making it dippinct and making resistant
it gets confused because there's so it's
like a wildfire going on in there it's
chaotic leptin goes well I don't know
should I be high or low should you be
hungry or not hungry I can't tell
anymore I forgot a dip a neck and goes
well should I be making more should be
or should be less uh I don't know what
do I do with insulin I don't know and so
a different neck does start going up and
down just like remember I told you if
you don't have enough fat a dip
connecting goes down if you have too
much fat it's inflamed your your fat
doesn't know how much you're dependent
to make anymore it's confused it's got
brain fog same thing as resistant I
don't know break on or break off and
that's really the beginning of metabolic
syndrome how do you tell metabolic
syndrome you have insulin resistance
your glucose levels go high you you can
have a big waste your waistline gets
bigger you got visceral fat and by the
way with all that fat uh you got a lot
of blood that's got to kind of find its
way around that fat your blood pressure
goes up it's not so easy to pump that
blood through your body anymore and
that's what metabolic syndrome is high
blood pressure right high blood
cholesterol high blood glucose and a big
waistline that that's how you tell when
you're saying how do you know when
you've actually exceeded that safe Zone
these are the clinical signs that we see
in the medical office
okay so when you look at somebody and
you see that they have a high body fat
percentage
I'm thinking of the Sumo still
you look at that and go as long as the
it was accumulated at a rate that the
blood supply could keep up with that
accumulation there's not necessarily a
problem here
it's a little bit more complicated than
that because uh excess amounts of fat no
matter what are going to put pressure on
your circulation on your heart remember
I told you it's still hard to pump that
blood even just through a lot of fat
mass that back pressure in your heart is
going to actually wear down your heart
um now you know I know you want to kind
of focus on the Sumo I look at Sumo as
kind of a an extraordinary
exaggerated and somewhat grotesque
version of actually growing too much
body fat to see what they what the uh
extent is of growing body fat but still
staying healthy now now Sumo wrestles
are healthy because they're working out
all the time and only they're eating it
to create their big Mass all right
they're eating a relatively healthy meal
they're not eating french fries the
whole time it's a very regimented diet
they're exercising they're getting diet
they're kept in Stables more or less of
training where they're actually getting
sleep and they're they have a they have
a very rigid schedule and their stress
levels outside of competition are really
you know they're they're trying to stay
calm most of the time so these are all
factors these lifestyle factors also
affect our body fat are we physically
active are we getting enough sleep uh uh
what kind of diet what's the quality of
the food the fuel that we're actually
eating how much stress do we actually
have and now we're realizing enter a new
Dragon which is actually our gut health
our gut microbiome our gut microbiome
our healthy bacteria 39 trillion of them
in a healthy body contribute to
streamlining your metabolism they work
along with insulin they work along with
adiponectin to help your metabolism
streamline pulling in that energy
so I could have asked the question
another way which would maybe be even
more informative as to why I'm focused
on the Suma wrestler and the other way
to ask the question would be if I wanted
to get obese in a healthy way could I do
it the reason I'm so interested in this
question is there is a debate raging in
culture which is can you be healthy at
any size
and up until 48 hours ago when I read
your book I would have said no you
cannot absolutely unequivocally if if I
look at you and you have a a
dramatically high body fat percentage I
can tell you immediately you are
shortening your life period end of story
and I would have been able to pass a lie
detector test but it doesn't mean that
I'm right it just means I believe it and
so reading your book I'm like maybe
there is a way to get obese in a quote
unquote healthy fashion but I need to
keep exploring it I you're definitely
making me believe that this is a far
more intricate picture than I was
originally giving it credit for not
surprised at all as the island of my
knowledge grows so grows the shore of my
ignorance so I'm not at all surprised to
find that I didn't know nearly enough uh
but I am still hung up on a lot of what
I think I know about the metabolic
signaling that fat does
that getting fat is a mind that you have
chronically elevated caloric intake that
you're probably overeating sugar which
is going to be another thing that we're
going to need to get into uh
and that almost certainly
people that get to that level of body
fat percentage they have not done it in
a controlled fashion and so I wanna know
if we just have to rule out and say yeah
I really can't tell if you're healthy or
not from looking at you we're going to
have to run a lipid panel or whatever
metrics it is that we're going to look
at but you know what you're talking
about actually is so important to say
which is
I I you know as you were characterizing
this looking at somebody you can judge
whether or not they are they're they're
unhealthy based on their body size
because they're fat okay let's break
that down you would not be able to look
at somebody and know how what kind of
body fat they have you could guess and
you might be right but how much visceral
fat they have you know somebody who's
obviously obese and we've we've all seen
people like that they're you know
there's that's a that's a far that's a
that's a far end of the that's a that's
a tail end of the curve those people are
clearly not going to be healthy and
those people have very shortened
lifestyle I would put a sumo wrestler on
that scale but those people who are
morbidly obese they're not exercising
they're not eating a healthy diet that's
probably how they partly how they got
there to begin with but what that tells
you may have fat isn't the problem it
becomes the lifestyle that's the problem
lifestyle contributes to the growth of
fat excessive fat excessive fat right
and so what really matters for most
people
is actually the kind of fat you have and
the extent of that that kind of fat
visceral fat it's a lot worse more white
fat more visceral fat those are setting
you up and you know the the opposite
side of the sumo wrestler is the
Apparently thin person who also is obese
on the inside you would never judge them
to be obese you might even think they're
healthy but they're probably not
exercising they're probably eating a
very poor diet and although you're not a
human dexa scan that could actually see
the Superman to be able to appear inside
the body and resolve maybe the
Terminator to resolve what kind of fat
that they actually have all right they
they are I wouldn't say equally
unhealthy but it's very difficult to
judge by the size of a person except at
the extremes well according to your book
it would be the the flip if I look at
them and I realize that they are lean
diabetic they're in worse shape than an
obese diabetic so like again getting
back to we've we have found the edges of
what I understand yeah so that was a
very surprising find for me okay so
knowing that that reframes obesity for
me so as soon as I read that in your
book I was like okay so here's the
prediction that makes and I've certainly
heard other people say this that
adding fat to your body is actually a
metabolically protective mechanism and
that if you're able to put on fat more
easily you are probably in better shape
because you have a way to get the excess
glucose out of your bloodstream store it
as fat and if you're able I don't like
so I get fat very easily my wife does
not so for me putting on fat is very
simple which tells me that either I my
fat cells maybe they do 320 percent
bigger or something or I'm just very
good at generating the other ones or or
your metabolism is very efficient So
based on how much you're eating and the
quality of the food you're eating it
gets stored into your fat quite
efficiently I wish it was a little less
efficient uh yeah I hear you so okay so
there for some reason my body and people
like me they're able to get the uh the
excess sugar energy however you want to
look at it out of the bloodstream into
the fat cell
and that is very protective and so now
as they get bigger and bigger
and adding on more and more fat there is
from what I hear you saying there are
ways to do that well and I don't yet
know if you feel like it's there is no
longevity implication to the sumo
wrestler as long as he's working out in
fact maybe that's right let me just ask
that point blank uh would you estimate
that sumo wrestlers as a population will
live just as long as
anybody else that eats a similar
composition of diet I'll be clearly
fewer calories look sumo wrestlers are
trained when they're young and they work
out and they have a very regimented diet
I mean and a lifestyle they're under
control but like any athlete I mean look
at that that's the part that I keep
having lost that but but here's so
here's another but here's another one
think about other big athletes you look
at an NFL player all right oh they die
they're big but you know the reason that
they they they wind up eating a lot of
food so they have a huge caloric intake
when they're working out now I think
it's getting better because they're
actually trying to study that but then
what happens when they're when they come
off the field when they retire they're
still eating that kind of food maybe
worst quality food now they're not
working out
all right now they actually have a
completely different lifestyle where
they continue to eat a ton of food maybe
not high quality food instead of
overloading but they're not actually
physically active so and that they're at
a different point in their metabolic
cycle as well so the the the point of
the matter is is that if some you know
it's a it's an experiment that hasn't
been done yet they have a sumo wrestler
who who gets trained when they're you
know in their late teens actually
continues to have their same lifestyle
over the over the entire spectrum of
their adult life it'd be like an NFL
player who basically plays ball until
they're six years old it doesn't happen
we can't do that experiment you know
like if you we don't know how to do that
study if a football player we're
actually to do exactly what they do over
the course of their life would they live
longer than somebody who stopped playing
at the age of 30 and then went on to eat
junk food and become sedentary for the
rest of their life we can't compare that
so for a short period of time sumo
wrestlers go to a far extreme of body
fat accumulation
some would say even a grotesque extreme
in which you would think that they'd be
metabolically unhealthy you would think
that they would develop diabetes they
would develop heart disease they develop
cancer like because we associate this
with older people who are obese and the
fact is that it's not true they're
actually remarkably fit for their size
but let's not forget they're young
they're trained they're diets regimented
they're exercising their their whole
life is actually contained and
controlled
because they stop their Sumo training at
a certain age we won't know whether or
not this early exposure is going to lead
to premature death right I mean I would
imagine that sumo wrestlers after they
finish training and I and I don't know
this I mean this is that I don't know
I'm as a scientist I can tell you an
honest tells you when they don't know
something sure and I'm just telling you
I don't know if any Studies have been
done on retired sumo wrestlers and their
metabolic consequences of their earlier
training it'd be something interesting
to study but in no case is getting fat
young protective of longevity protective
of other diseases as well okay so it
isn't doing them any favors we just
don't know if it's doing any harm when
it's done in that very controlled so
many aspects of the lifestyle are on
point uh but they're still getting fat
it's interesting so here here's the base
assumption that's driving my obsession
with sumos in this interview I have
lurking in the back of my mind even
though very smart people tried to tell
me to let go of this but it doesn't make
sense to me yet again could just be
ignorance I have a feeling that there's
just only so much food calories that you
can process in a lifetime and that you
people tell me not to think of it like
this but I just think it is the right
way to think about it that the body
eventually has done all the things that
it's going to do that whether it's
um gumming up because you've eaten a
certain amount of sugar and all of that
and so just so many things stick around
as they talk about forever chemicals
they accumulate whatever but the only
thing that's shown efficacy for
extending life in basically every animal
that has been tried on is caloric
restriction so I infer from that then
that well over feeding even if you're a
Michael Phelps and you're staying
shredded because you're just working all
those calories off
that that you still you ran those miles
man like a car that gets 250 000 miles
on it uh it's gonna have some wear and
tear to show for it and so the metabolic
system has done those 250 000 miles so
even if you're lean even if you're a
sumo wrestler and you're in good shape
I've just it just seems impossible that
there isn't some sort of price to be
paid for that I agree with you I I 100
agree with you I mean you can actually I
think that it's an interesting
kind of calculation to make right you
eat three meals a day average person
lives what 82 years old now
you can calculate the number of meals
you're eating you can calculate based on
your body size uh how many calories you
might or might not be eating every day
if you were ideal you can calculate how
many blood vessels are in your body
sixty thousand at 60 000 miles worth of
blood vessels you can calculate the
number of times your heart's going to
beat uh over the course of a lifetime
you know and you can actually probably
come up with a metric that approximates
fairly accurately what the total caloric
what what the what the Goldilocks zone
the zone of tolerability of the calories
that you could intake over the course of
your life would be and so you know to to
to
um to to work with you on this thought
process this thought exercise you know I
wonder if you were to eat more calories
if you assume that there's a caloric
bank account that you're limited to over
the course of your lifetime if you eat
more in the beginning and less at the
end uh do you does everything balance
out don't really know you know and I
think it's because there's so many
interconnectedness or if you eat less in
the beginning you know kids born during
wartime that are starving right and then
later on they they have appeared to
Prosperity War's over now we got a job
and now we're actually exiting our
company that we started and now you just
start to pig out and so now later on in
life you wind up over feeding
net net from the from your bank account
as long as you stayed within those
calories are you going to be okay now if
you exceed those allowable calories it's
I'm just I'm playing this mind game with
you it's really interesting to think
about it that'd be like a great model
like a research model to actually like
after this thing I'm going to start to
work on that probably because it's so
interesting yeah over the course of your
lifetime
yeah this is uh this is a really
interesting question that I found the
book so fascinating because you're
really pushing against some of the
Notions that I felt most confident in so
one thing as we're going through and
we're talking about you know Michael
Phelps or a sumo wrestler I want to know
do you think it what's more important
diet or exercise both are both are
equally important there's no you know
like we always want to simplify it like
okay do you want to be dropped in a
volcano or eaten by a shark neither okay
and I think that when it comes to
exerciser's diet they go hand in hand
they're different but they do go hand in
hand you could have a perfect diet and
and do no exercise and you're going to
be compromised you could exercise your
own time and go and eat a crappy diet
junk food staple diet and your exercise
is you know you might look good for a
period of time but inside you're going
to be terrible and so I think it's
really and by the way it's only exercise
and food you're talking about what about
good quality sleep what about Stress
Management you know these are the four
legs of the stool for our metabolic
Health all right let's hold everything
equal and uh let's talk now about
quality of calorie yeah so if I were
let's say that I was going to grossly
overeat and I have a normal more or less
sedentary life and I'm going to eat five
one person my identical twin my
identical twin is going to eat 5 000
calories a day of ice cream
and I'm gonna eat 5 000 calories a day
of a plant
primarily plant-based diet with a little
bit of fish and chicken and stuff but
I'm still eating 5 000 calories it's not
easy anybody that's tried it I know uh
but I managed to get my calories in so
we both have the same overage
will the blood will whatever metrics you
look at whether it's visceral adipose
tissue where it's stored my cholesterol
levels and what parts of that may or may
not matter uh the walls of my arteries
like is there going to be any difference
given that we're eating the exact same
number of calories this is for people
who say it's just a question of calories
it doesn't matter what they're making I
mean you know the whole idea of of
quality calories is absolutely critical
you know you can have a a candy bar that
has
304 a thousand calories or you could
actually have a garden salad that you
load up that has the same amount of
calories candy bar has got artificial
preservatives and flavorings and
colorings and saturated fat okay maybe
trans fats um the salad is gonna have
the same number of calories okay but
it's gonna if it has a tomato it's gonna
have lycopene that actually helps you
burn fat by the way it activates Brown
fat which we can talk about which will
help to burn down fat it's got uh leafy
greens uh which watch and maybe it's got
a little broccoli sprouts and now it's
got sulforaphanes and so it's not that
just simply the unit of energy that's
calories but the other stuff that
accompanies it all right that is
important I'll give you an example of
something else that accompanies calories
so an orange like just a regular piece
of beautiful Citrus orange that you
might have ripe orange Juicy's got a lot
of sugar in an orange right
it's also but it's also got a lot of
dietary fiber that dietary fiber
it doesn't quite count as a calorie but
it might partially count as a calorie
um uh it's got uh it's got uh
polyphenols it's got a lot of flavonols
it's got hesperidin neurogen and all
these other uh factors it's got vitamin
C ascorbic acid which lowers
inflammation and so although you might
have a an orange compared to a candy bar
so you can fix it to a candy bar or a
bag of potato chips all right a bag of
potato chips does not have those
polyphenols does not have that dietary
fiber and so you it's the things that
activate your body
the good defensive parts of your body
help to groom your metabolism can indeed
help you fight your excess body fat all
right it's not the presence of fat you
know it's not it's not it's not a black
and white thing it's it's the degree and
now you can choose foods that can help
you optimize your metabolism help you
fight body fat and also help to activate
other health defenses that will improve
your longevity would I get the same or
different diseases if I'm overeating by
5000 calories in those two paradigms you
get different diseases interesting am I
going to get a disease on both sides
like if I'm overeating healthy foods but
I'm overeating like I'm packing on the
fat every year year after year just yeah
you know
I I I you probably will get different
diseases but I would sell and I would
tell you that your your your
uh your curtailment of your longevity
will probably be faster with the ice
cream hmm
so I'm going to die younger
uh what what does that play at a
cellular level why is that true is it
can we boil it down to just sugar like
the amount of glucose that I'm gonna
have to deal with
um well so that's if you're fixing all
the calories the same that's going to be
the same on both sides your engine's got
to rev up higher because you're eating
you're overeating your the needed amount
of calories every day right you're doing
5000 you're going over so you're gonna
have to you're going to have to burn
more uh your engine is going to have to
race faster to be able to actually just
metabolize uh those those calories but
on the other hand the ice cream is
adding saturated fat adding extra sugar
to you okay or maybe it's a sugar-free
ice cream now you're adding let's make
sure because what I'm really trying to
contrast is one is taxing my
um what I think about as triggering all
of the metabolic problems which is
insulin and the other one because I mean
maybe I should have framed it more as
like I'm getting the vast majority of my
calories from fat right so I'm eating
salads a ton of plants but I'm just
drowning it in olive oil I'm not even
going to put seed oils nothing crazy
like all things that most people say
yeah that's great for you but on one
hand on the one and I am forcing my body
to process an unimaginable amount of
glucose and then on the other one I am
not so I'm take I'm overeating calories
so it's going to get stored as fat but
I'm I'm not asking it to process blood
sugar okay so let's let's move it from
Ice Cream to cans of soda okay all right
so you're going to have 5 000 calories a
day based only on soda it's got a lot of
sugar in it ton of sugar every soda you
know 12 ounce can has like nine table
teaspoons of sugar all right it's a lot
of sugar like a like a horrific amount
of sugar if I gave you an empty glass
and put nine teaspoons of cane sugar in
it and gave it to you to chug down you
wouldn't do it it'd be repulsive now you
got a salad let's just use that extreme
of a salad you put some olive oil on it
go ahead but that salad is going to have
leafy greens is going to have tomatoes
it's gonna have carrots it's gonna have
and I can tell you what the fiber
content is and the polyphenol content we
know what those things do
all those other natural chemicals we
call them bioactives activate systems in
your body that counteract the disease
process they try they'll work hard to
try to protect you against the disease
whereas the soda
no such Activation so you're the soda is
just the great lack of the bioactives in
the soda or is it because I've always
assumed that this is that sugar is the
blunt force trauma that ends up killing
you if you're dying a metabolic disease
you have a sugar problem you have
intaken too many carbohydrates full stop
period end of story it's that simple
or no it's not that simple because you
know effectively food is not sugar or no
sugar all right and but is metabolic
disease sugar or no sugar no I think
metabolic disease there's enough
chemical reactions tied to Sugar but
tied to other chemical reactions that
have nothing to do with sugar it could
be a domino effect so I could give
myself metabolic disease with uh fat
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it's a you know this is an interesting
cross-examination of a scientist because
the way you're asking the question is
really loaded you're you're handing me a
grenade with a requested all right and
I'm and I'm tossing it back at you
saying I'm not pulling a pin all right
I'm asking you to put the pin back in or
try to reframe it so that I'm not giving
a purposefully controversial answer what
I would say is if you overload on
anything first of all your brain runs
with sugar if you had no sugar you would
die probably within a day if you've just
depleted all your sugar you wouldn't
survive your body tries to create sugars
and as a substitute tries to create
ketones so you can actually stay alive
so this idea about sugar you know the
the tendency is to try to villainize you
know demonize food or food substances
it's all bad or it's all good it's my
God or my devil not true a little bit of
sugar is totally fine for most normal
healthy people you can eat a little
sugar and by the way tomato a salad will
have some sugar in it all right if you
actually have a tomato salad tomato Subs
sugar ripe ripe fruits have sure and
fruits have sugar but if you look at all
the clinical studies people who eat more
fruits and vegetables including those
that contain sugar they're better than
people who eat ice cream and sodas the
whole time so it's the it's the degree
of of uh of um taxation you know on your
metabolism a lot of sugar is going to
over tax your body all right for sure
it's going to cause your metabolism to
keep on firing as high as it possibly
can to metabolize that sugar and
eventually the wear and tear is going to
show it's poor quality fuel period now
if you eat a plant forward diet throw in
some chicken throw in some seafood what
have you maybe even throw in a couple of
a little meat every now and then a
little red meat while now and then but
mostly plant forward diet you're you're
getting all these other polyphenols and
dietary fiber okay all these other
things that you know go ahead fix them
out of calories the same but now you're
adding through plant-based foods and
Seafoods uh and even olive oils healthy
oils you're adding all these other
polyphenols that activate your body's
defensive mechanisms and fat opposing
mechanisms that might start to counter
what the soda can't do by itself because
it's lacking that so it's not like the
soda is come 100 harmful it's pretty
harmful if you if look you and I have a
soda right now it'll be fine but if we
keep on having a soda every day weekend
and week out year in and year out and we
have a six pack of soda or two or 24
sodas a day we're gonna we're gonna
we're going to completely annihilate our
metabolism all right so what I would say
is that
diets that are healthy for your
metabolism contain polyphenols and
dietary fiber which are happen to be
found mostly in Plants Mother Nature is
imbued lots of good stuff in our in our
plant-based Foods I'm not a vegan uh and
I'm not a vegetarian although I eat
mostly vegetables but I'll eat other
things too and what what I do know is
that the foods that I eat that are
plant-based are loading me up in
addition to calories with other
bioactives that actually fire up my
body's Health defenses fire up my
metabolism in beneficial ways and in
fact and help fight harmful body fat so
it's not like are you fat are you not
fat we are we all have fat it's the
degree of fat and by the way you know
when we're actually not eating our body
is hardwired with a program that just
burns down extra fat so when we're when
we're not eating which like when we're
sleeping which is fasting uh which we
break that are fast when we wake up
which is why we have breakfast you know
our body is actually automatically
trying to right size itself to kind of
burn down some of that extra fuel that
might have been formed or stored during
the day but it might not have been just
during the day maybe it's the night
before maybe it's a weekend before maybe
it's during the holidays maybe it's over
a decade of abusing and overeating and
having low quality food those are the
things that you know you're hardwiring
your body has a hard time overcoming the
earlier in life that we get
uh set in our minds that we have control
of our metabolic Destiny by lowering the
amount of sugar we have correct by
lowering the amount of overall calories
we eat regardless of whether it's
plant-based or not okay is better for us
eating less is healthier caloric
restriction and an experimental model
just shows you know uh you know like
it's it's it's a an Exemplar of saying
you know we probably are left to our own
devices we probably
tend to overeat all right we don't have
enough control so now if you know that
we tend to overeat eat less it will be
better for you and and the caloric the
benefits and Longevity benefits of
caloric restriction I would say a
corollary to that is that you know you
live longer by eating less you live less
by eating too much and so it's a matter
of degrees like we've been talking about
in this conversation which I love is
really we've been exploring the The
Fringe areas extremes you know the sumo
wrestler the anorectic you know like
that that or the prisoner of war okay
none of those are healthy okay and even
though and and even though they're
surprises it is true super skinny people
with ultra lean mess uh uh who get who
on a cardiac catheterization table
cardiologist okay looks at them look
they they tend to have more
complications and they tend to die more
from the complications compared to
somebody who's overweight that has a
heart disease so this is the the Crux of
the thing that I'm trying to get to with
uh okay if I overeat soda versus I
overeat
um fat is I I have a perhaps just
novices understanding of metabolic
disease and so everything that's ever
been referenced as metabolic disease to
me has sounded like oh this is a an
insulin glucose problem period And so in
my overly simplistic mind
um
metabolic disease is a disease of over
consumption of glucose
but now I'm realizing that that might
only be what that might just be the
common way that people get metabolic
disease in modern lifestyle most food is
the most common way so is there another
type of metabolic disease that would
manifest from overeating fat and the
reason that you just triggered that
thought in Me by explaining that
somebody who's underweight still goes in
for cardiac catheterization
um makes me then ask the question okay
if I'm a doctor and I'm looking at the
two hearts can I tell oh this is
somebody who's underweight and somebody
who's overweight I'm guessing you're
going to say yes and so then I'm like oh
wow okay then there's two different
disease types it's just one is really
common yeah and one is not common that's
that's the case and and by the way
metabolic diseases there's there are
hundreds of different kinds because any
defect in a chemical reaction that's a
tied to generating energy at any stage
whether it's connected directly to
insulin or not whether it's connected to
sugar or not you know I mean there are
uh tons of our body has to detoxify as
part of its metabolism right you need
energy you need to get rid of the toxins
it's kind of like the uh the the the the
the the carburetor of your car all right
you know look there's no problem with
the uh the gas tank and the engine looks
and fuel lines look fine carburetors
busted all right now your car's not
going to run well so the metabolic
health and metabolic disease is actually
uh very very complicated sugar happens
to be excess sugar happens to be the
Hallmark of modern
uh industrialized life with because of
the food industry and marketing you know
and and by the way a little bit's
evolutionary our brains are hardwired to
crave sugar
I mean you know troglodytes probably
crave sugar whenever they can find it a
berry let's go pick all the berries
because we want to store all that energy
into our body I think what what's you
know if I could sort of character
assassinate one aspect of our societies
that we live in abundance we have poor
uh self-knowledge and self-control uh
we're beginning and the science is now
beginning to un reveal exactly how we
really work you know and how bad things
that we always assumed were bad how bad
it can actually be and also maybe not as
bad as we thought in some instances as
well skinny was always thought to be
good
well except unless you're a person or
War right fats always thought to be bad
well wait a minute but soon don't run
slows for that period of time in your
life it's not all bad so we need to
rethink body fat we need to rethink
metabolism and to have a better
understanding of like what's really
going on that's what I do as a scientist
and as a doctor talking to patients I've
got to really be able to be the honest
broker to say we don't know everything
so just because you assume that your
metabolism slows down at middle age
automatically doesn't mean that it does
the new research begins to reveal that
other things are actually happening to
make you gain weight to change your body
shape and and because of that there may
be new found solutions to it as well
all right I want to put a another
thought experiment out for the underside
so now if we were doing the same
experimentation so one is just a what
we'll call a terrible quality diet so
we'll give them soda again but you're
drinking like 1200 calories so you're
you're going to lose weight you
definitely won't be accumulating fat at
least I can't I'll be surprised if
that's your answer and then over here
you're eating that healthy diet again uh
getting most of your calories from fat
you know drizzled over better greens et
cetera et cetera
um
what is that going to look like are they
both going to be fine is this does it
really boil down to as long as you don't
tip over into overeating your body will
will be just fine even if all you're
doing is drinking soda
no because I would say that the caloric
restriction in which all the calories
are coming from soda are going to still
over day in and day out is going to
really overload over tax your insulin
it's going to over tax that that axis of
metabolism it will even though you're
not overloading it but that's all it's
getting it's not getting any of the
other balanced diverse repertoire of
bioactives that come from eating a more
balanced meal and by the way the other
thing that's important that you know
can't be underscored in a scenario you
you talked about is our gut the
contribution of our gut microbiome all
right when we eat normal calories uh
with uh with a plant-based salad with
greens or whatever or eating dietary
fiber and it's and that fiber is feeding
our gut bacteria that 39 trillion
population that ecosystem in our gut
that actually lowers and helps it when
it's happy and well fed lowers
inflammation helps our insulin work more
efficiently
contributes to Healing organs that might
be injured and regenerating tissue from
the inside out text messages our brain
so we're able to be clear-minded better
cognition better decision making okay
healthy gut below healthy body upstairs
including our brains now you give people
caloric restriction or any amount of
calories normal calories let's call it
out of soda no Dairy Terry fiber no
prebiotics no bioactors of feed your gut
microbiome your gut microbiome is
starving
now you're starving up microbiome is
going to change that ecosystem it's
going to be a sick ecosystem you can't
see it in a mirror you can't judge it
from across the street or across the
table but I guarantee you that
disintegrating ecosystem inside your gut
is now going to cause inflammation to
rise in your body all right it's going
to actually cause your hormones to kind
of start raging in wild ways the
messages that attached to your brain
aren't regular messages anymore now
you're less happy you're more depressed
you've got brain fog now when you're
presented with some a choice of
something to eat I don't know maybe
you're going to make the wrong choice
maybe you're going to overeat something
right and so again and should you be
exercising when your gut is telling you
you shouldn't be happy you should be
depressed probably not all right and now
you're not going to be sleeping as well
either and so you can kind of see uh
it's it's uh I think
you're correct in many respects that
overloading on sugar or sugar alone as a
dietary staple is harmful but the
reasons it's harmful are not as simple
as insulin or non-insulin body fat and
non-body fat and the benefits by the way
of eating uh healthy salads or health
eating plant-based Foods again I'm not a
vegan or a vegetarian even I do eat a
lot of plants it's not simply because
you're having the color of the rainbow
you know it's that there are
explanations that we're beginning to
unearth now of how these foods and what
we you know when it comes to Food and
Health it's not just about the food it's
about how our body responds to what we
put inside it back to this quality of
fuel soda poor quality fuel
salad good quality fuel ice cream tasty
probably not the best quality fuel you
shouldn't be having it all the time but
you know there's a lot of people who
make a habit out of eating soda and ice
cream most of the time and those are the
people in a in an era of abundance in a
society where we can pick and choose
anything we want at any time all right
where when you make the wrong choices
most of the time your body and your
metabolism is going to pay for it
yeah so man uh I'm I'm always surprised
that
diet isn't the thing that people just
say that that's the only lever
um because it seems so much more
important than exercise but I get it I
get it I just I don't know enough about
all of that so I I acquiesce to uh
smarter people than I
um but on diet so I want to talk a
little bit more about sugar so clearly
more complex than I was thinking before
this uh interview which has really been
great
um
but what does it look like to start
pulling sugar out of your diet so what
are the what are the things that I'm
going to avoid and and I think this will
be a good way for us to transition into
a lot of the stuff you talk about in the
book about the bioactives and what
people need to add
to the whole point about eating to beat
your diet what do I get by removing
sugar and then how do I combat some of
the mistakes I may have made that leave
me with more adipose than I would like
right okay so I think everyone let's get
some practical things that people can
actually
do something about
cutting down or cutting out food any
kind of food that has added sugar is a
good healthy move to make if you want to
optimize your health or if you just want
to actually incrementally make your
health a little bit better
think about whether or not somebody is
added sugar to whatever it is you're
about to put in your mouth okay
I'm not talking about a restaurant meal
all right what I'm talking about is a
Ultra processed food where you can
actually look at the ingredients and
based on where how far up
or how close to the beginning sugar
actually sits in that ingredient list
that tells you how much is actually in
the relative to everything else
soda is water and sugar and flavoring
and preservatives and stabilizers and
coloring you know and so you can sort of
see cut down on those types of foods
it's going to be your body's going to
thank you for it that's a easy super
simple way if somebody's added sugar to
a food cut it down or cut it out to
immediately start to unload your
metabolism and to allow it to actually
start to breathe and relax and do what
it wants to do you're unpacking it
unburdening your metabolism by not
loading added sugar onto it all right
now the other thing that you can be
doing is eating foods that might be
sweet so like Everyone likes a hit of
sugar right I mean that's just our
bodies we like it so but if you eat
something sweet like a piece of fruit it
doesn't have to be a very sweet fruit a
pear sometimes the pears are not that
all that sweet Apple's not usually all
that sweet but guess what you can get
that Sugar hit all right your brain will
register it but now you get all these
other things that are part of the plant
part of the fruit part of the vegetable
you're gonna get in an apple you're
gonna get the the nice juicy Apple uh
liquid but you're going to get dietary
fiber you're going to chlorogenic acid
in the flesh of the Apple that
chlorogenic acid by the way is going to
improve your immune system it's going to
protect your stem cells for regenerating
it's going to help to burn down harmful
visceral fat and so is the part of a
bioelectricalactic acid in the skin of
the apple right so I'm somebody that
studies food as medicine you sit down
maybe and you order something you're
just going to eat it because you you
you're hungry and you want to eat this
is what you want to eat I sit down or I
go to work and I look at a piece of food
and I'm wondering what's inside it what
is it made out of and what what based on
what's it made it's made out of how does
that stuff affect the body how does the
body respond to it does it respond in a
good way or a bad way so I would say
that you know one of the things that you
want to be able to do is eat more of
Mother Nature's Pharmacy that's Pharmacy
spelled with an F like stuff out of a
farm as opposed to a pH like
pharmaceutical right because what
happens when you actually gain too much
body fat your metabolism is down you got
to resort to Pharmaceuticals right I
mean that's what that's the bummer you
know if you abuse your body
and you're dealing with the The Fallout
of of dietary uh not taking care of a
good diet over time you're going to wind
up being on insulin or being on
Metformin or now you can see this crazy
raging trend of prescription weight loss
drugs to try to prevent you from
overeating by the way you know how those
drugs work ozympic will go over you all
these things you got inject in your
belly okay it's originally developed for
diabetes and what it does is it it
affects your brain
by
um keep on pressing the button in your
brain that signals that you're full all
right that's how these weight loss drugs
so here's how I come at this this is how
I talk about the whole topic of weight
loss drugs I know it's very popular and
I know it works all right and and
absolutely there are people who have
morbid obesity
okay who might look like sumo wrestlers
but they don't they're not all right
those people whose lives are in danger
uh might need these prescription drugs
that's why they're FDA approved however
the the trend the rage the demand
this craze towards weight loss drugs
is not necessarily a good thing for two
reasons number one it blocks something
in your brain that tells you that you're
hungry so yeah sure you might
calorically restrict but you might also
be un you might under nourish yourself
of the healthy bioactives which is why
I'm bringing this up all right this is
very popular right now but the people
are you know they're losing weight in
weird sort of ways you've heard about
ozympic face they're they're it kind of
melts fat away including changes the fat
the way you look in your face people
some people don't even look normal
okay so just and the other thing is that
we don't know what the consequences are
for people who are who don't suffer from
obesity Frank obesity to be able to do
this for a long period of time it's also
depriving diabetics of the drugs that
that they need for their health like
this popularity of like um because
they're using ozepik as a treatment for
diabetes or medically indicated and now
all the supplies of his epic are
depleted and they can't even they have
to wait for the supplies to replenish
meanwhile other people are going to just
hug their Olympic supplies all right and
they don't they're not and they're not
medically in need of this it's a vanity
issue all right and and but for type 2
diabetics they can control it through
their diet entirely they can absolutely
absolutely not everyone can but most
people with diet and lifestyle right two
diabetes yeah who that has Type 2
diabetes can't control it through
lifestyle
I think there are people who are have
multitude of other comorbidities
um and it may be that you know they
develop type 2 diabetes
um long after they were already morbidly
obese you know they they may not be able
to just simply exercise and eat their
way back into a metabolic really is it
is it the fat cells are kicking off
could be it could be like over over uh
excessive inflammation uh if you're a
super elderly I mean there's a whole
host of diseases you might have other
autoimmune diseases that are actually
affecting you know you have to tell me
more about this okay so uh at the risk
of derailing us but this is very very
interesting so someone I know and love
very much has a lot of comorbidities and
I was encouraging this person to fast
and intermittent fast and they pointed
out that they they do like a 13 to 14
hour intermittent fast every day and I
was like hmm okay that's actually more
impressive than I thought there's still
a lot of room to go but it just got me
thinking is is she going to struggle
more because of her she has a thyroid
condition
um you know a couple other things going
on just to keep it spicy and it it did
get me started thinking like hmm is this
going to be a more complicated thing so
there you can basically break your
metabolism I don't know if you'd use
those words but you can break your
metabolism to the point where even
though something like Diabetes Type 2
when caught early enough I don't know
how to say it is entirely lifestyle
controllable you're saying you can be
sort of too far gone that it not that
it's impossible but that it's you're
gonna have a lot of pushback yeah
absolutely interesting absolutely the
resilience of the body by the way is
compromised by the magnitude and the
number of of oppositional conditions
that it actually has if you're
relatively healthy and you've got type 2
diabetes you know from lifestyle if you
fix your lifestyle your body's
resilience it'll bounce back you'll
actually be able to reverse it for sure
that is a 100 sure but if you have a
whole host of other comorbidities other
conditions that are weighing you down
thyroid problems pituitary problems
adrenal problems you know you you name
it and they could be autoimmune they
could be inflammatory they could be all
kinds of other things it could be from
surgery you know you you had you know
and so then all of a sudden these other
complications
make it harder for your body to bounce
back simply by eating more healthy and
also exercising more what would you do
with a person that's in that situation
where they've got enough comorbidities
that this is really going to be a tough
unwind how do you start I mean are you
just like look at some point it's just
there's no coming back or is it you know
I will I can give you that answer from
my vantage as the kind of doctor I am
sure I'm trained in Internal Medicine it
means that I take care of men and women
young and old healthy and sick my own
Vantage Point has always been to try to
keep people from requiring medication
I'll use it when I need to but if I
prescribe a medication
it's when it's necessary I will always
think when I get somebody when I
prescribe a medication I will always
think in my head what is my plan going
to be to get them off that medication
how can we actually get them to a point
where they don't need it anymore come
down on the dose first and then come off
of it if possible it's not always
possible but I've always thought about
it now that's not actually how most
medical professionals are trained to
think and I'm just telling you I was cut
from this bolt of cloth where you go to
medical school you're trained to ignore
health
only focus on disease usually very
Advanced disease you make the diagnosis
and then we throw Pharmaceuticals and
Technology at it and because we're not
thinking about getting people back to
health because we ignored it from the
beginning we wind up just chasing
chronic disease with chronic treatment
so now that our Health Care system is
clearly breaking it's collapsing under
the weight of these chronic diseases
everyone
insurance companies Medical Systems
Doctors Medical Education medical
Educators everybody is having a rethink
we cannot sustain this too much longer
and not only does the system fail but
individual lives and quality of life is
compromised and so that's why you know
someone like me
you know I have long had from the very
beginning of my career this idea let's
keep people healthy let's understand
what that actually means let's use food
diet and lifestyle as the primary tool
to keep people healthy let's make people
feel empowered Health Care happens at
home not in the doctor's office you know
all we can do is to counsel and advise
and try to help people understand what
they can do for themselves and you know
they come to the back to the doctor's
office when they're sick all right and
if we can get them back to health that's
a that's a win so for me I score my
performance in medicine as being able to
keep people from medications getting
them off medications and getting them
bounce back to health and food as a tool
in the toolbox is one of the most
important things that I learned on my
own and then as a researcher just how
powerful it actually is
all right so uh uh bioactives let's get
into those so you go into a lot of
detail in the book about bioactives
um
how much should that like I've I've
never been like a big believer in
supplements I don't supplement with
basically anything vitamin D
occasionally but other than that not at
all
um
because I probably oversimplify the way
that I think about food and so your book
was really intriguing in terms of like
hey there are compounds in this this
this and this and they're very useful
for for instance how do we get brown fat
turned on which I don't think we ever
defined Brown fat so probably good take
a second to Define Brown fat talk to me
about these bioactives how we trigger
things like brown fat to consume the
white fat it get it gets pretty
interesting
and
if I could do you consider bioactives to
be signaling molecules like are they
telling your body go do this or is there
a more uh mechanistic like it goes in
and it flips the enzyme that's being
used to break down fructose something
like that okay
let's
um pick up that thread from defining fat
we talked about white fat subcutaneous
and visceral and inflammation and all
the leaking and all that kind of damage
it can do but that actually in the right
amounts it's actually incredibly helpful
and white fat I mentioned to you is
Lumpy bumpy wiggly jiggly it's the stuff
you can see in the mirror okay
um uh but there's another kind of fat in
the body and it's called Brown fat and
brown fat actually is not wiggly jiggly
it's actually paper thin and it's not
close to the surface so you can't see it
it's close to the Bone it's plastered
along our neck okay it's plastered under
our breast bone and it's a little bit
it's under our arms like a girdle and a
little bit in our belly all right and we
all hold it in the same place we all
hold in the same place okay and and this
discovery of brown fat is relatively
recent it's like within the last 20
years that we didn't realize that we
have so much Brown fat and now we're
beginning to understand what it does
um let's talk about what it does it
space heater in the body it actually
turns on heat it burns energy to create
heat and what do we mean by burning
energy well if you have a gas range
stove in your house what do you do when
you actually want to boil some water you
go click click click whoosh it burns on
you see the flame all right and and that
flame has been being fed by Fuel it's
got to consume the fuel from some place
well Brown fat does the same thing okay
it goes whoosh it generates heat under
certain circumstances we're going to
talk about that in a second all right
I can tell you cold temperatures and
bioactors will do it okay it goes whoosh
and it has to burn down fuel where does
brown fat draw the fuel from it draws it
from the harmful white fat draws it from
visceral fat so Brown fat can burn down
white fat it depletes the fuel tank and
burns it down fat versus fat and it's
turned on by cold temperatures and
bioacters now I want to go back and tell
you how we discovered it because this is
an interesting story you know the
history of Discovery in Sciences I I
find it so fascinating so go back to the
17th uh hundreds
there was a guy named Conrad Gessner
who's a researcher he's a naturalist he
studied the natural world what's a tree
look like what's a muskrat look like and
he wound up studying
um a a little furry mammal that like
that looked like a woodchuck called an
Alpine Marmot and it was a hibernating
animal which means that he had to go
find them hiding in a little cave when
it was in the middle of the winter and
when he basically and this is what they
did back then they would actually
dissect it in the lab to see what kind
of organs it actually has because nobody
knew about organs he found that in this
uh hibernating animal that he had
removed from a cave during the middle of
the cold winter in Europe
that there was a little thing between
his shoulder blades that was a brown
looking
organ
and he didn't know what it was called
they actually named it a hibernoma
because they thought it was just in
hibernating animals and they found it in
hibernating bats and hibernating
squirrels and other high terminating
animals over time they never knew what
the what the purpose of this thing was
all right so they just this is this is
what's in the literature all going all
the way back then in the ER in the early
1900s a scientist at UCLA
actually put this hibernoma this brown
tissue under the microscope and by now
we had better ways of looking at at
cells we had names for cells and we had
more powerful microscopes and looked at
it and said oh my gosh this hibernoma is
actually filled with fat it's actually
fat
and it's an interesting fact because
it's brown and now why is this brown fat
Brown
well it turns out that the brown fat
when you look even closer under the
microscope
the brown fat cells are filled with
these little mini organs called
mitochondria now you know some of you
guys might have heard of mitochondria
before in a health and wellness space in
a biohacking space of mitochondria are
energy generators they're they're they
they're like little bad nuclear fuels
fuel tanks in our inside our cells when
I was in medical school and I had to
memorize hundreds of things I always
called mitochondria mitochondria because
they are small and mighty they burst out
with heat all right and and one of the
characteristics of a mitochondria is
there's a lot of a lot of mitochondria
and brown fat and mitochondria has a lot
of iron in it what does iron do when you
leave it outside it rusts it oxidizes
and so what the all this like super
packed mitochondria in fat does is it
oxidizes and now it's brown like Rusty
Nails so that's why Brown fat is brown
it's packed with these mitochondria
these nuclear fuel cells and that's how
it fires up the heat and it's got to
draw that heat from white fat so good
fat now we know what it is why it works
and we didn't think it was in humans
for a long time and the way that was
discovered in humans is really really
interesting we always knew babies had
maybe a little bit between their
shoulder blades or it's like ah it's an
evolutionary artifact you know kids are
born with incubators now or like warm
delivery rooms we don't need that stuff
and that must go away when you're an
adult right because nobody's got a
little lump between their shoulder
blades it's pretty smooth usually or
muscular
um well it turns out there was a woman
in uh just about 20 years ago in Boston
who came in with a tumor in her chest
and uh uh and they did a scan to look at
metabolism uh because they because at
the time pet scan and the Pet Scan that
it positron emission emission tomography
we call it a pet scan picks up
metabolism it's a way of measuring
tumors actually are particularly
metabolically active it consumes a lot
of sugar it's very super active you can
find tumors by by looking at the Pet
Scan when they scan this lady her tumor
lit up like a Christmas tree
not surprising cancers light up they
consume a lot of sugar all right and so
it's a tumor that's lighting up but when
they biopsied it they removed it from
her chest and they looked into the
microscope guess what it was brown fat
it was brown fat it's not sucking up
more glucose is that what they were
reading they were reading the metabolism
the firing up the consuming of the fuel
metabolic activity that it was doing
anything that generates metabolism will
be picked up on a pet scan including
glucose in this case it was the brown
fat was drawing energy from white fat
and lighting it up so they found it and
they're like oh my gosh an adult
actually has brown fat and they found it
on a pet scan now pet scans 20 some
years ago still pretty new
and so uh uh what they what the
researcher did is they like you know I'm
wondering if we've been seeing Brown fat
it wasn't a cancer by the way I'm
wondering we've been seeing Brown fat in
these pet scans that have been done
thousands of tens of thousands of times
and we just missed it because we never
thought about it and we never biopsied
it so we went back and he looked at
thousands of pet scans in the Radiology
record room and you know what
there was some brown fat that was
lighting up you could see it around the
neck and be under the chest under the
breastbone under the arms all right but
not everyone had it and so the
researchers like wait a minute this is
weird it's not consistent it doesn't
make sense until they looked at the
season the date in which the pet scans
were taken remember this is Boston New
England cold Winters every time they saw
Brown fat on pet scan was in the winter
with cold temperatures just like the
hibernating animals so cold temperatures
signal to our body to light up the brown
fat in order in humans to be able to
burn down energy so this is by the way
you hear about cold plunges now now you
know why it actually makes sense it
actually works okay but here's the cool
thing when it comes to food and
bioactives
we also discovered exactly the pathways
that cold activates the brown fat so
I'll walk you through this quickly
because I know actually you'll
understand why the bioactives do it as
well we know that cold temperatures
cause the brain to release a hormone
called norepinephrine it's kind of a
stress hormone you know fight or flight
a little bit of stress hormone and when
the when the hormone runs down the from
the brain to the nerves to the brown fat
it
hits a receptor
that basically is a trigger a switch to
say turn on the engines baby click click
click whoosh like on the top of your
flame of your stovetop and the round
file will turn on well it turns out when
you map out all these signals it's not
just cold temperatures that will cause
that brain to release the hormone
Chili Peppers
will do the same thing when you eat
spicy food
capsaicin which gives you the burn The
Zing on your tongue
that capsaicin a bioactive from Chili
Peppers activates a receptor in your
tongue that your tongue will then send
the message to your brain to say hey
release some of that norepinephrine
release some of that hormone and so if
you eat chili peppers in a quiet room
where you're by yourself and you're able
to close your eyes and you'll feel The
Zing up to your brain you'll actually
feel the hormone being released down the
side of your neck down your nerves
activating your brown fat so Chili
Peppers activate Brown fat and we can
prove it with a PET scan
it's been done wow the Chili Peppers
okay and if that Chili Peppers work now
and we know all the other ways of doing
it now we can actually start to realize
man maybe there's other foods that
activate Brown fat as well
Tomatoes contain lycopene lycopene uh
actually activates Brown fat so you can
trigger the burning down of of visceral
fat white fat by activating your brown
fat so profound how much do you have to
eat to get that effect not that much
there was one study that was done it was
really quite remarkable in Spain where
they gave young women who were carrying
a little extra weight
just one Ripe Tomato to eat before lunch
that's it one tomato
that's it so I can all get your lectins
forget about the lectures that's a
that's a myth it's a it's it's fake news
I'm a researcher who studies lectins I
can tell you there are hundreds of
lectins the idea that lectins are a
single thing present in tomato is and
it's poisonous is just not true okay why
do so many people struggle with
nightshades I was assumed it was
Nightshade is also a uh a uh a misnomer
there's a whole history I write about is
it a miscategorization or okay we're
gonna go there so when Spaniards
who went to LA Latin America South
America and found tomatoes and brought
them back to
southern Europe
okay as as prizes they didn't just bring
back the Tomato they brought back the
tomato and the vine and they were given
as presents to wealthy patrons of the
Expeditions and they didn't know what to
do with these things they kind of looked
like apples and they weren't red they
were gold golden in the beginning in
fact the Italians called it Palmer Apple
Doro gold Apple because it kind of
looked like an apple and it was gold
that's why it was called Pomodoro right
that's why the Italian word for tomatoes
Pomodoro okay and what they didn't know
what they was and so they sent some of
the leaves up to England where the
horticulturists and the botanists were
trying to identify this leaf that they
hadn't seen before
you know they had never seen one before
it was brand new but it kind of
resembled nightshade
all right a deadly nightshade so they're
like well I don't know kind of looks
like a Nightshade it's not a Nightshade
but it kind of looks like a Nightshade
let's throw it in that category so
that's how this idea of The Nightshade
stuck it's not a Nightshade in fact the
the nightshade family there is
Nightshade it is one member of a bigger
family of plants now popularly known as
nightshades eggplants and everything
else and there's one plant of the
nitrate family called Belladonna that
actually is poisonous you can poison
yourself if you have Belladonna plants
among many Nightshade plants that's the
only one that really is deadly maybe
there's two of them one that's one
that's really deadly toxic but guess
what doctors use Belladonna alkaloids
that Nightshade to treat glaucoma
so it so even The Nightshade has
beneficial use but anyway so this is the
false Association okay
um uh of Knight people who claim to have
problems with peppers tomatoes they
probably have a sensitivities to some
other aspect within the plant it's you
can't just like throw Nightshade I can't
eat any nightshades night deadly
nightshades deadly plants not true okay
now by the way the the the the the myth
of tomatoes being poison and deadly
when I told you that the the ex the
Expedition gave them to wealthy people
okay and they were used as OGE the art
these beautiful golden tomatoes with
their Vines and guess where they placed
them on display in their homes in their
Villas they put them on lead trays to
display whoops now the acidic tomato as
it's ripening on a lead tray will absorb
the lead
now you try to eat that tomato you're
going to get lead poisoning so a lot of
the early reports of tomatoes being
poisonous was lead poisoning so what do
the rich people do and I'm obviously
oversimplifying a historical story
they're like man no more of this out the
window and guess where the tomatoes
landed in The Peasants yard
peasants don't have weren't wealthy they
didn't have lead so what do they do they
ate the tomatoes because it's food all
right and they planted them and they
cultivated them and never put them on
heavy metal all right and so that's why
peasant food often in in a Mediterranean
often come often Tomatoes cook tomato
dishes recipes come originally from
peasant food and it was never considered
to be toxic because the peasants never
put them on lead trays and I hope I've
kind of debunked a little bit
put some context into things that you
may have heard about tomatoes Nightshade
nightshades poisonous tomatoes are
poisonous oh and by the way you know
like and there's a there's a there's a
story behind that okay and then this
whole idea of the the lectins hundreds
of lectins of nature tomatoes do have
some lectins as you as do many other
Foods our body has like thins in it too
by the way most selectins are not
poisonous including the ones that are in
tomato if you only if you end normal
diet no caloric restriction eat whatever
you're going to eat in Spain
no special exercise no trainer no work
no workout special workout no gym
whatever you do however you moved you
keep on moving however you ate you kept
on eating one tomato a day would
actually shrink their light up their
Brown fat shrink their burn down their
harmful white fat and Shrink their
waistline by an inch so that's visceral
fat disappearing all right not very much
so dose is not that much another study
of the University of Toronto looked at a
very very inexpensive middle aisle food
remember the Forbidden middle aisles
don't go there I'm telling you to go
pick out the treasures that are in there
and one of one of the treasures beans
canned edible the canned prepared beans
so they studied uh one cup of canned
beans
for five days a week
everybody ate everything else that they
normally ate no extra exercise no
caloric restriction just five cups of
beans a week five out of seven days they
would actually over the course of one
month they began to shrink down their
visceral fat their waistline waist
circumference started to shrink their
metabolism improved is this a limit to
this or can I start stacking it could I
eat a tomato a cup of beans every day
and get double the effect or is there a
point at which we don't know that this
is this is right now we're just starting
to just study one thing at a time but
it's what you're asking is to me where
the ball is going to be what happens
when you combine Foods now I will tell
you one combination that already we
already know about and that is tomatoes
and olive oil
so remember we talked about lycopene
which activates your brown fat and
there's 150 Foods I write about in my
book that can all do this all five
different ways all kinds oh yeah
so um lycopene lights up brown fat but
the lycopene in a um uh in a plain
tomato
is absorbed in the body but it actually
gets absorbed much better in the body if
you cook it with olive oil you simmer
the heat from simmering Tomatoes okay
actually changes the chemistry of Mother
Nature's lycopene on the vine in a way
that your body can absorb much more
avidly okay like like three times more
addedly 300 more literally sliced tomato
olive oil heat that's it okay uh or
crushed tomato however have it your way
and and and and because lycopene the
chemistry of lycopene is it's a fat
soluble molecule chemical which means
that it likes to dissolve in fat you
know like I mean you've gone into your
kitchen before and you know some things
that you put into a cup of water will
readily dissolve and some things will
just kind of like sit on the top it
doesn't mix very well right so uh same
thing in oil
some things are readily dissolve in in
oil but not water lycopene dissolves in
oil so olive oil
with cooked Tomatoes where you're
changing the chemistry will actually
then be the delivery system to really
get a lot of lycopene into your system
so that's a combination tomatoes and
olive oil cooked in a particular way
that's what I'm actually working on
right now is how do we go from these
individual foods to think about how do
we combine them how do we prepare them
how do we treat them in ways that
actually can do even more than what we
know they can do alone so we talked
about the the beans but I'll just I'll
rattle off a couple of other things
without necessarily going into all the
data green tea will do it dried
mushrooms will actually do it lentils
will do it do you have a sense of which
ones are like more powerful than others
because some of those things you're
saying I like and some I don't yeah and
so diversity is the name of the game so
for other reasons or the brown fat
starts to get numb to the signal of one
no actually for other reasons I mean
well first of all
diversity is the name of the game for
our Humanity all right I want to say I
want to say that it's very important
food has sold for so long Food and
Health Food in the health conversation
has been for so long associated with you
know negative uh attributes you know
food is harmful cut down eliminate
restrict deprive like that's how we
think about diet that's why right by the
way that's what the reason for my title
eat to beat that diet
go away from the diet and lean into the
food because food is our Humanity for
thousands of years tens of thousands of
years you know look food has been where
people gather we take care to harvest
our food we prepare our food we have
recipes that get handed down over the
generations over centuries no matter
where where we are who we are we're all
different but we all come from some
place and where we come from there are
food traditions and the ones that stuck
around for hundreds of years generally
are healthier right so the the you know
it'll be interesting in you know two or
three hundred years that people are
still passing down Pop-Tarts right so
probably not yeah I'm gonna guess not
right hey I better clean that one up for
us so the but the point is that uh the
the point I'm making is that
we should love our food to lower health
and what food is medicine research is
doing is taking a lot of these foods
that that have been used in traditional
recipes looking at what the bioactives
are in them studying them in the lab and
in humans to see what they do to our
metabolism and what they do to our
health defenses and we're realizing that
one of the things that for example one
of our health defenses our gut
microbiome our gut bacteria our gut
bacteria thrives on diversity you feed
it the same thing every single day it's
not very happy that's why when you eat
only the same thing every day yeah your
stomach doesn't feel so great you might
have some loose stools every now and
then all right our gut demands diversity
so some things you like eat them don't
eat them all at the same time switch it
out some things you don't like no
problem you're you know the reason you
don't like them maybe you react poorly
to them listen to your body and so we
talked about tea Capers olives olive oil
chili fresh Chili Peppers dried chili
flakes
prunes
apples pears Fresh Foods bok choy fresh
mushrooms across a whole range go down
the mushroom path a little bit so
mushrooms freak me out I absolutely hate
them but they come up so much that even
I'm like should I be finding a way to
get these into my diet why do mushrooms
freak you out they feel weird in my
mouth they taste like dirt and they live
off of other things I don't know they
freak me out okay so like the the the
idea of the nature of a mushroom freaks
you out so there I'd be okay with that
if they felt good in my mouth it didn't
taste like dirt all right well so here's
I always tell people like if they if you
don't like a particular food you
probably haven't yet had the opportunity
to ever prepared for you enough to buy
that 100 I used to fear sushi in ways
you can't imagine until you and now
until I found the one that I like and
that's the Gateway and then it
I like that idea all right so first
let's talk about what's good in a
mushroom mushrooms contain a fiber it's
kind of funny to think that mushrooms
are packed with fiber because they're
soft and Squishy for the reasons that
you described
um uh but they contain a soluble fiber
called beta D glucan we know what it is
it's found in the the cap of the
mushroom so you if you buy mushrooms you
bring them home you put them on a
cutting board you cut off a cap
usually throw away the stems don't do it
the stems the cap has beta glucan the
stems have twice as much and beta glucan
when we eat them whether you saute them
you bake them you fry them
I don't recommend frying but you can
also puree them if you pureed mushroom
Parts into a soup you might not think
that it would have a completely
different mouth feel for you and then
you and then you added seasonings or
herbs to give it a different feel flavor
and maybe combine it with something else
you might actually I might be able to
convert you into a mushroom lover yeah
I'm super open to that the Gateway the
Gateway dish so you'll have to you know
have me over in your kitchen sometime
I'll cook I'll cook you dinner because I
have to eat like by the way the reason I
talk about food this place is I like to
cook dude you lit up as soon as we
started talking about like the specifics
of the food I'm telling you I love I
love food and food culture I don't like
to eat like I don't Gorge but I I live
for tasting things I love to explore all
the but you actually like to cook I like
to cook yeah the so I love food I love
like going to a restaurant and having it
made and trying new things and I learned
because I used to have food traum as a
kid but I've really learned learn to be
experimental and try things and it's
opened a lot of cool like uh culinary
doors for me but I hate cooking okay but
that's okay you know you'll find a
you're gonna find another way to try
things by the way I the other day I I
just want to say this this is this is
not off topic but talking about trying
hmm
I saw at a restaurant that there was a
dish it was a Spanish restaurant that
had
um Eros Negra it's black rice a black
paella paella Negra okay and the
Blackness comes from Squid Ink whoa
squid ink is pretty intense it's jet
black Taste Of The Sea it's actually
really delicious but but I had just been
reading about the fact that Squid Ink
has been cited in the lab and would fed
to animals that have gotten chemotherapy
it protects the health of the gut so you
know how chemo people get chemo they
have diarrhea because they like chemo
like totally scorches their gut
Squid Ink protects it it's pretty
interesting because they know how or why
uh you know the superficial answers it
must be an antioxidant
um but actually it turns out squidding
can actually stimulate healthy blood
vessel growth androgenesis it can help
to protect stem cells That's So Random
do you know the story of rapamycin and
how they found it it was uh in Easter
Island yeah in Rapa Nui yeah like in the
swamp and the people for however long
would go there when they weren't feeling
well and supposedly it made you feel
better right so this guy ends up taking
some of the dirt back looking at it and
they found the fungus yeah that made him
and was like oh maybe this is something
and it ends up being this huge something
and I'm just like so weird these
comments let's talk about it rapamycin
inhibits a pathway called mtor okay mtor
is critical for fast aging
so rapamycin and its derivatives slow
down aging and one of the diabetic drugs
called metformin actually is slowing
down aging as well it hits that same
Target so again you know if you follow
the trail of science you kind of find
all kinds of interesting things but uh
now where were we were we talking about
we're talking about cooking yes we were
talking about bioactives and uh and you
were asking about combinations and
diversity so our gut microbiome the more
diverse food that we eat and this has
been studied the more diverse especially
healthy foods it could be it doesn't
have to be plants but mostly plants and
seafood things like that
um
the greater the diversity of the food
that you eat the happier the gut
microbiome the more diverse the more
different organisms you can grow the
more diversity of the population
of the ecosystem the the healthier your
gut microbiome is healthier gut
microbiome lowers inflammation
helps your metabolism helps you heal
faster so again you know don't be afraid
of saying well I don't really like this
so I'm not going to be able to eat this
obsessively and exclusively you know for
a whole week so therefore I can't be
healthy no there are like I read about
more than 200 foods that can light up
your brown fat and help you reduce and
burn down your white fats so the whole
idea of eating to be your diet is
connected to being able to ReDiscover
the joy of eating the traditional foods
that have recipes that include all these
ingredients
that's what I'm talking about like okay
don't eat too much we started talking
about don't don't overload your fuel
tank all right so you don't want to
Gorge
um eat diversely mostly plant-based
stuff because you know it's got all the
it's it's got meaningful calories it's
not the soda it's it's qual high quality
fuel high quality it's got for the
bioactors what are those bioactives do
they do a lot of things they light up
all kinds of systems in your body for
health but one of the cool things and
the foods I write about need to be your
diet it lights up brown fat what does
brown fat do well it's that hibernating
fat that that's that goes whoosh and it
actually fires up and it burns extra
Fuel and it steals that fuel from your
harmful white fat especially the
visceral fat how do you know because
human Studies have been done to show
eating these foods not very much once
you shrink your waistline because your
waist isn't being pooched out by the
visceral fat your belt size you get it
you tighten your belt a little bit
further slip into those jeans wait a
minute aren't we back to a diet nope
because you're eating foods to be able
to shrink down your excess fat so is fat
protective well yeah some fat is
protective I'm trying to hit all the
things we started with yeah you need fat
because it's part of your metabolism but
should we be eating too much food have
too much fat nope that'll actually
outstrip the blood supply cause
inflammation and cause that domino
effect that wrecks your metabolism so
don't overeat eat the right eat high
quality fuel
eat diversely and refer back to the
foods that come from the Mediterranean
and come from Asia those are two I sort
of try to simplify for people like they
I people always ask me Dr Lee how do you
eat what kind of diet are you on and I'm
like I'm not on a diet I don't believe I
don't go for diets for myself I respect
other people who try them but I I don't
but I do have a way of eating and my way
of eating I call it mediteration I'm
Asian I've lived in Asia before I've
lived in Mediterranean in the
Mediterranean
and naturally I gravitate towards dishes
and ingredients and recipes and one of
those two genres if I'm at a restaurant
I'm looking at a whole bunch of
offerings I'll kind of say well what's
kind of asian-ish and what's what's kind
of Metairie what are the Mediterranean
offerings and I'll try to go for those
automatically all right it's easy to do
not expensive the stuff that I talk
about the beans Dirt Cheap so this is
not a rich man's Folly to pursue that
you can't sustain this is actually
tapping back into our Humanity to be
able to eat foods that we enjoy and if
you don't like mushrooms which are one
of those healthy foods
uh you know I would love to cook a dish
for you a mushroom dish that doesn't
give you that weird texture to see if
you like it and that's part of the fun
and of sharing enthusiasm for food as
well you know in America
one of the things that I you know I did
a gap year before I went to medical
school and I lived in Italy and I lived
in Greece the first thing I noticed is
that when you're in the Mediterranean
when you're in America you know like
you're eating by yourself you're wolfing
down your food
um you know and when you're sitting with
people what are you talking about you're
talking about your problems you're
talking about the things that you need
to do you're you're when the first thing
I noticed when I was in Italy when you
sit down first of all you never you
never eat by yourself you're always
eating with somebody else and when they
serve that delicious Mediterranean food
all right you don't talk about your
problems what do you talk about they
talk about the food
they talk about this is how my mom
prepared this is what I love about this
food this is the season for this food
you Savor the experience of the food and
so that's why I think even though we're
kind of like biohacking into the kind of
the mechanisms I want to kind of bring
this conversation into the point that
you want to eat to beat your diet it's
not about going to a diet it's tapping
back into our Humanity to go back into
those foods that come from the
Mediterranean come from Asia they come
from other places as well but they've
been codified in recipes and in
Traditions that we can get behind this
is not hard to do
if you don't want to go into the science
if you want to geek under the science
it's all there you want to talk to me
about it I'm happy to take it you know
as far I can go a mile deep with this
conversation but honestly at the end of
the day it's like you and me sitting
across a table ordering some food and
just really enjoying what's in there and
talking about the food that's actually
how to eat to beat your diet and I think
that this actually overcomes the stigma
about food and health that you have to
stay away from it that you know it's in
and don't demonize your food look there
are demons out there for sure but look
for the Angels like don't wouldn't you
rather actually surround yourself on a
daily basis three times a day with
something that gives you peace and gives
you pleasure that's the joy of of Health
That's The Joy of Eating and I think
that's really how we can actually best
protect our metabolism and by the way
one last thing about those prescription
weight loss drugs man what a bummer it
is to actually take a medicine that
blocks your appetite so you don't want
to eat that delicious food that's my
kind of pet peeve about this trend in
addition to all those other caveats that
I actually gave is like who would want
to actually block their Humanity of
enjoying food you like food
how would you like to not care about
your food anymore that's a bummer so to
me it's really reigniting This Joy of
Eating I love it man where can people
follow you and connect with you over
your love of eating you know what uh
come to my website uh it's uh Dr D R
William Lee l i.com Dr william.com
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