Kind: captions
Language: en
what you talk about in the book is that
we actually meet the the criteria for
being an endangered species which is
freaky and I think anybody listening to
this is going to call BS right now
because they're like there's eight
billion of us there's no way right we
need that but so one is that a fair
assessment are the stakes really that
high and how on Earth do we meet the
qualifications for an endangered species
there's definitely a problem with
reproductive health and by the way it's
not just fertility fertility is one
manifestation of it there's many others
we'll talk about those but fertility is
a good one to start because that's
something that involves the man and the
woman so on the man's side we have
declining sperm count which we've
documented most recently in November
showing it's worse than we thought and
before it was 1.16 it's now over two and
a half percent over two points something
yeah I think it was like 2.64 or
something I mean it's crazy it's crazy
and and that's in a relatively short
time so what we were saying back there
in 2017 was this decline of one percent
per year was an underestimate of the
rate of decline
and now we know it's not just quote
Western countries we know that it's all
over the world so it's actually
Bleaker than when we wrote countdowns or
Bleaker than when we published that
paper and
it's I don't want to leave out the
female side of this right so we have
more you know the rate of miscarriages
going up and the rate of PCOS places to
govarian syndrome is going up of course
women's infertility is part of couple
infertility so it's
it's kind of a bleak picture but the
interesting thing to me is that the rate
of change the rate of decline the rate
of problems is all about the same it's
something over one percent per year
so you know many people think well one
percent that's not so bad one that's a
rate of uh decline doubled one of the
questions yeah yeah that was sperm count
but I'm saying I'm putting this in a
bigger context reproductive function
including all of those reproductive
outcomes and you don't think we're going
to start to see that number I don't see
how men's fertility could be going or
sperm count could be diving at two and a
half percent more than two and a half
percent year over year yeah and this not
become a larger fertility problem where
we break that one percent do you think
I'm crazy on that that's likely but I'm
cautious I'm actually optimistic is that
what you mean no it doesn't mean I'm
optimistic it means that before I say
that everything is worse
I have to go into each of those Trends
and look at them individually but I did
that for fertility for PCOS for
miscarriage for testosterone by the way
that's a really big one we should talk
about there
all declining at at least one percent
per year and that I can safely year over
year I mean that compounds
so you know Tom when I say to people one
percent per year they go
yeah
that's a lot
then I say 50 years that's how far back
we've looked that's 50 percent at least
and they still don't get it and I say
well suppose it was IQ
suppose I told you that IQ had dropped
50.
I mean that would be I'm I'm already
scandalized though that people aren't
their eyebrows reaching the back of
their head when they hear this that that
we've dropped 50 since we started
recording this
that's pretty startling and so to orient
people a little bit so I'm a bit of a
japanophile I'm absolutely obsessed with
Tokyo it's my favorite place on Earth
and when I think about what's happening
there where you have a sexless it is not
completely sexless but it's like where
they're trying to incentivize young
people to actually have sex like that
that's so absurd to me growing up in the
80s where it was like everyone's telling
you not to have sex oh my God like I was
telling you before we started rolling my
whole life has been about a level of
paranoia I I have been terrified my
entire life that I would get somebody
pregnant that I didn't want to get
pregnant yeah and so now to think that
governments are having to get involved
to get people to have sex seems crazy
but is true the data reflects it and so
as we establish the severity of the
problem what give me give me an anchor
around the I've always said the human
body is a chemical processing plant and
I get some side eye from people when
they think when they hear me say that
because I'm often saying it in a
religious context of why I believe the
way that I believe uh help me understand
though because this does the the warning
that comes out loud and clear in your
book is tied to the fact that we are now
processing through our bodies chemicals
that we shouldn't be processing
I love that I think that's a really
great way to put it
um I think the body is much more than a
chemical processing plant and I'm sure
you do too but I don't know that I do I
won't derail us on that we can get into
that later okay so but let's go back to
Japan and by the way
uh uh East Asia
South Korea is actually I think the
lowest and and what we what I look at is
the total fertility rate so the total
fertility rate is the number of children
that a woman or couple will have in
their lifetime okay and in 1960 it was
5.4 worldwide
and that dropped to 2.6 in and this is
number of kids that people number of
kids and that includes everywhere you
know from Japan to South sub-Saharan
Africa which has very high fertility
um and
um dropped
in 50 in 50 years basically same as
sperm count is that an accident
I don't think so
um so where are we
2.1 two children per couple
and a little more because there are some
losses right so 2.1
the species replaces itself globally
that's the average we have to maintain
right
and
in countries that are below that and I
think South Korea is now at 0.89 wow
um and Japan is I think just about one I
don't haven't looked these change quite
rapidly okay hold on hold on that's per
couple yeah so you have couples in Japan
that every time they get together
basically you now have the population
because they're only going to replace
there's two of them replacing with one
right and in South Korea it's less than
one yes those are terrifying numbers
like to give people an understanding
that is guaranteed economic collapse yes
unless you uh have migrants come in but
the problem is if this is a global Trend
there's nowhere to grab migrants from
somewhere wherever you take them from
then they're going to be the ones that
collapse right I just want to say that
again this is guaranteed population
collapse yes it's not a maybe population
collapse wow okay right and and so
just you said this was economic
catastrophe let me point out
I'm sure you know this about the the
pyramid
population pyramid right so everybody
knows the pyramid and the top of it is
old people and the bottom it is young
people and this is the way it was
in 1960 right and gradually what's
happened is that this part has grown and
this part has shrunk old people are
living longer and we're having fewer
kids
exactly and the people in the middle
take care of those people and those
people we don't have enough of them and
so that means that all of our economic
support which is funded by the middle
is in trouble
right Social Security
Etc et cetera so
you know there are books written about
this of course and there's still people
that say
eight billion people in the world where
you know plenty of people too many
people
but if you look into this deeper and
look at these Trends and you see where
this is going
everyone is knowledgeable any everyone I
believe is saying this will not continue
it will reach a maximum exactly when
2050 we are not sure exactly when and
then it will go down and it will never
come back
that's a quote from empty Planet which
is an excellent book I recommend Daryl
Bricker for those that don't want to
sleep at night if you want to wake up
screaming in the morning yeah it's a
it's a scary Prospect empty planet or
lonely empty yeah and
um
so the one of the reasons is and and now
we're going to go away from chemicals
okay well first let's anchor people
around phthalates phthalates it's
phthalates having phth
yeah so phthalates yeah
you're getting them all the time and
stuff yeah but that's I love I mean I'm
glad that you're bringing up salads and
that's really important and it's where I
live because I've done so much work on
it but I don't want to limit our
discussion that's one of a class of
chemicals
inside a bigger class called
endocrine disrupting chemicals or
hormonally active chemicals those are
chemicals that confuse our body as to
the function and the amount and the
transport of basic hormones right that
we need
okay but
um
let me I'd like to not leave the
the problem of population
overload or underload without saying
that one of the things or major thing
that drives populations down is
something that I'm very much in favor of
and that's women's education
contraception urbanization all of these
things
get women to say no I don't want to have
six kids anymore
you know I want to join the workforce I
want to make a different kind of
contribution okay and it's that growth
that's causing these demographers to say
we will never go back up to six children
per you see in order to have things
balance out if somebody's having one or
two children somebody else is going to
have to have a sexual you know and and
as these countries which are poorer
countries less educated countries become
more educated have women entering the
workforce and so on
the women are not going to produce
children in those large numbers and and
that's driving the certainty that we
won't go back up
and that's the question yes we're going
down we can see that World Bank you can
look at every your reader listeners can
look at World Bank
fertility data Open Access look at it
you can see exactly how many children
were born
per country per year
and and convince yourself because you
can see those declines and and and you
don't you know it's it's not going to go
back up so that's the lifestyle part of
it the chemical part is where I hope
we'll spend most of our time because
that's what I work on
um yeah walk us through
how are these chemicals getting into our
system because modern life is pretty
amazing but it's got some it's got a
pretty high price
yes
they get into our system every way
possible right so what are those
ingestion
drink and food is a really big one
inhalation
dust hairspray nail polish
air pollution
they get into our bodies through our
skin
so
chemicals in personal care products and
makeup
um just absorbing as we walk through the
day in through our skin all of those
contribute and different ones
enter in different ways depending on
where they're most prevalent right
um but
um you said talk about fallards
so I will I'll start there phthalates
what's the terrible name isn't it I just
um we should pull them I don't know what
anyway phthalates are chemicals that we
primarily think of as plasticizers
they make plastic soft
flexible which is wonderful
[Music]
um
wonderful uses of of we need that for
many things think about
um
the tubes in a nursery for premature
babies
they're getting a lot of phthalates
because they're getting tubes into their
body that's carrying nutrients
oxygen
and
because phthalates are not chemically
bound to the plastic
they come out particularly in warm media
and they get into that food or
whatever's going into the baby and
measurably
you can then measure it in the urine
okay so there's no question about that
um there was a very nice experiment in
in Eastern Europe very simple
a farm
ER milk to Cow by hand
farmer milked the cow with a milking
machine
soft tubing
salads in the milking machine milk no
salads in the hand milking
milk right so I mean there's no question
that the processing of food that's just
one example of food processing the
processing of food introduces phthalates
into the food
as does the packaging
as does the preparation for example
microwaving in plastic you know that's
no no right yeah thankfully that one
all right I heard about a long time ago
in fact that begs the question how do we
start learning about this how did we
detect that phthalates or anything were
causing specific problems what's the
history of that discovery
I love this story I'm glad you asked
that because it's start for me it
started on an airplane flying to Japan
I was going to a meeting Japan was
putting considerable resources into the
growing question of chemicals impacting
human health
and I was sitting next to a friend who
was a chemist
at the CDC Centers for Disease Control
which measures chemicals in people's
bodies
on an ongoing basis right and so we're
sitting there long flight we're talking
and he says his name is John Brock and
he said Shawna
you should look at phthalates
and I'm like why
I had never heard of that lights okay
um and this was I would say probably
I'm guessing now 98 something like that
before CDC got there
environmental chemistry lab up and
running into the point that they could
cheaply measure these things in small
amounts of sample in lots of people it
really wasn't known what the exposure
was just phthalates to phenols to
parabens and on or on Earth
right
um
and so
John
did that he was chemist you measured
that and he saw that phthalates were in
everybody
everybody in the United States at I mean
almost 90
percent
um regardless of age or sex or race or
whatever so there you have it it was in
any everybody what does it do
turn over to this other Laboratory
um National toxicology program and their
job was to take these chemicals that
were known to be in everybody and say
what do they do
and they do that with animals because
that's where you start
so what they showed was that when the
mother was exposed to these phthalates
that the male offspring
were born
not quite right
and the way that they were not quite
right they called the salad syndrome
okay now that doesn't sound remarkable
but it's a little more remarkable if you
realize that there is no other
chemical that has a syndrome
named after it why do you do that you
know it's because it's really important
right and what is the phthalate syndrome
so the phallard syndrome and they showed
in rats
basically they were born
with smaller
and sometimes misshapen misplaced
genitals
that was the start
it's a pretty bad start pretty bad
that's rough
I'm curious out of all things do you why
do you think that it disrupts
proper sexual development and function
oh that's a great question and it's one
I actually can answer because that okay
before I give you the answer I'm going
to give paint a picture for you so
here's this little rodent or person in
utero
and they're
um
very primitive just maybe a few cells
and at that point the genital tract
is the same in males and females it's
just a ridge
General Ridge it's called okay then at
some point and we know exactly when this
is in a rat or a mouse
it's about day 18 of gestation
the testes start to develop and make
testosterone
okay
and that testosterone in the case of a
genetic male will be sent to the general
Ridge
and pass the message on that the general
Ridge should start developing in a male
typical manner
are you with me yep
so that means that that little pop will
start to develop
you know all kinds of organs that are
male typical of a
and as they grow lots of things grow the
female on the other hand will not be
affected
because the female is not looking for a
testosterone signal although they have
low level of testosterone Okay so
fallouts interrupt that
phthalates mess with that phthalates
lower
testosterone do they bind to the
receptor of testosterone or do they
lower the production
probably both
it's a double whammy
um and
um
the result is that the male will be
genetic male
but his genitals will be smaller penis
smaller scrotum misplaced scrotum often
not descending all the way
and some internal changes to the vas
deferens and so on and the
end point that I particularly got
interested in is something that on the
street is called the taint
right and this is the distance it's
called the technical term is terrible
a no genital distance
pretty straightforward AGD
anus to generals okay very interesting
very uh I I don't think most people
would really have thought about the fact
that they are pretty radical difference
in distance between men and women right
uh which when I heard in the book that
this is how they uh sex difference what
between chicks or something yeah yeah uh
that you can just flip them over and
that's how people are so here's a little
rat you hold it up on the tail you look
at the distance this is a male this is a
female I couldn't show you pictures you
know that's probably too much
I'll take your word for it it's a it's
50 to 100 percent bigger in male mammals
compared to female mammals except
the hyena
yeah that's interesting yeah
[Laughter]
and elephants are actually much closer
well so what's interesting on the hyena
is that the females are masculinized yes
like they they will even at times do the
the dominant thrusting right and they're
crazy I saw this I went to a hyena
colony and I saw a male having his food
taken away by an alpha female that's
interesting so it's quite different well
so very fascinating in that I'm assuming
the females have an abnormally high
testosterone level they do and an
abnormally long inner General distance
this is so interesting I mean this
really gets to the chemical processing
plan idea the fact that in fact one
question I want to ask you is
um going back so could I interrupt the
normal
um
production of a male in the same way
that their sexual maturation would be
disrupted through phthalates if I simply
Rob them of testosterone in utero what's
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do this
or do I actually need the presence of
phthalates specifically it's not the
fellow and I think I'm thinking when you
say could I Rob him of testosterone I'm
not sure how you would
in there
so sir I'm just as a thought experiment
no no I'm thinking with you so so
something that increases Androgen is
pro-androgen and something that
decreases is an anti-antrogen so
um and there are many chemicals that do
both both of these things and in
experimental settings you can do both so
um
and manipulate lots of things through
this very potent hormone
testosterone which is needed for not
only the generals but the brain by the
way we can talk about that so you know
the masculinization process of a genetic
male is
under the many things but playing an
important role is the testosterone yeah
so you can definitely mess with that and
by the way the females
well I haven't told you our results in
humans so so we won't go there yet but I
will just tell you having too much
testosterone in the female will cause
her to have an abnormally long in a
gentle distance
so all right this starts to make
predictions let me see if these
predictions are accurate okay so if uh
robbing the
um genetically male
uh
infant in utero of testosterone gives
them an abnormally short uh genital the
anal distance and a smaller penis uh my
gut instinct then is if I reversed it
and I gave uh a increased amount a pro
Androgen at just the right moment
because I know timing has a lot to do
with this but if I gave that at just
right moment could I bless that child
with a penis you would have to carry
around in a wheelbarrow
that's that's the question for for all
the dads out there wondering if they can
hop up their son I am now kind of
speaking out of school because I don't
know any such it does make that
prediction though do you think that's uh
I don't think so interesting I don't
think so I I think there's probably
so
the female is sensitive to an excess of
testosterone because she is not
expecting much so if you then give that
female
much more testosterone than she's
expected
expecting then she will exhibit a longer
AGD and she doesn't have that will she
get an enlarged clitoris
I don't know but I would I would that's
a wonderful question you know that's
something like the right hypothesis like
a reasonable hypothesis one thing you
talk about in the book and one thing
that I had I think everybody that hears
this finds utterly fascinating is that
females the default gender so we all
start there and we're it not for
um the obviously the presence of the Y
chromosome but then also the increase in
testosterone at a certain period of time
it's like we all start female and how
you have to be coaxed out of that
essentially exactly um out of that state
and so if the penile tissue is basically
a clitoris uh fully developed into a
masculine form then one would imagine
that if the body's getting a mixed
signal of like okay you you have XX so
this is never going to become a penis
but you have so much testosterone
signaling at this point now I'm getting
confused I'm extending the AG aegd AGG
I'm extending that but then I am also
um over enlarging the clitoris that
makes sense though I have not looked at
anything so here here's one problem Tom
the examination of the male is much
simpler than the female because the
organs are external there's not much
external clitoris there's a lot internal
right which you just shocked a lot of
people the first time I saw us I don't
know if it's a drawing or whatever of
how far the clitoris goes like uh
shocking shocking I said right so to to
to measure how large that to measure it
at all and let alone whether it depends
on the presence of an androgen or you
know it would be would would take uh
a very big effort I mean you would have
to have
um a scan but can you just do the part
that's visible on the outside I mean
that scene I'm not sure what that
reflects I'm not sure how much that
reflects interesting you know
um I don't know it's not my field and uh
but I said good great hypothesis
um
so
I'd like to
talk about this AGD in and this salad in
humans if I kind of yeah please to Pivot
to that
okay so when I heard this from John
Brock
I thought okay interesting
there's an exposure
what is it doing in humans right we
there's a human exposure what is it
doing and
um
then I thought well how would we
even ask the question and you you're
smart you think how would you answer
that what would you what would you think
about doing about figuring out what's
causing the change in length oh and back
before that the question is I think
do humans have a thalid syndrome I see
um because that was unknown it was never
heard of you would have to back into it
with what one if you understand the
mechanism of action this is why I'm
saying does it block The receptors or
does it reduce the amount of Androgen
being produced that would be one way
that you could get into that and then
the other would be is there
um
it does it do something proactively is
there biomimicry here does it look like
something else that's causing the body
to do something extra or to not do
something right right that would be
where I would start in terms of whether
that's tied exactly to phthalates
obviously you're gonna have to run
experimentation but you start injecting
or lacing the food of rats or whatever
what about humans
you'd be pretty gnarly if you did that
but you could certainly measure who are
the people that have phthalates in your
system what do they have common well I
think I'm cheating because I've heard
you say that it's measurable in the
urine
so I would take urine samples who's your
own sample
men and women I'd start with women I if
I hadn't read your book I'm sorry
this is actually really interesting yeah
so had I not read your book I wouldn't
think about men so I would have gone
straight to women
right so we're talking about a process
that takes place during pregnancy yep so
if you want to know
where there's phthalates swimming around
in there you gotta ask that question of
pregnant women's urine right and you're
right urine is the place to look that's
because it's um what we call
non-persistent it's water soluble there
are other bad chemicals that are fats in
fat and blood and so on but this goes
into urine pretty quickly four hours on
average thank God thank God but that's
crazy then for people that have elevated
levels you are constantly introducing it
to your system absolutely
whoa in and out at a pretty steady rate
so
and that by the way is everybody
um so the
in order to look at this I was thinking
okay I want to know this I want to have
valid levels levels in pregnant women
okay what do I need for that
I need the urine from pregnant women
where do I get that well I was very
lucky
four-sided I don't know that four-sided
in a prior study which we could talk
about because it's related to a sperm
count I stored urine of pregnant women
whoa I just happened to had a freezer
full of your information as you do and
actually many Labs do have that because
now we know how valuable it is
interesting because if you ever want to
say was the fetus exposed to X Y and Z
pull it out of the freezer and measure
it interesting so that's that was good I
had that side of it then the other side
is
what does the thyroid Syndrome look like
in a human
nobody had ever
ask that question
actually that's not quite true one study
did ask that question but not related to
a prenatal exposure so
I had I learned that later so I I came
along and I thought okay we want to see
if what's happening in animals is
happening in humans this
thing so it's an experiment you know
like like how would you do that
I said well we have to
measure the babies
right
then I had to find the babies that were
born to those women whose you and I had
stored wow
and then I had to think about well what
will I measure
because
while the
AGD had been measured in rats for a very
long time
I think from 1912.
and used as part of the
National toxicology program testing for
reproductive toxin since about 1950
nobody done this
so
that was I love problems like this you
know I love I love these you know so I
uh I got together with my colleagues and
I said well what should we look for
what is the analog in humans of the
phthalate syndrome in rats
okay and some of them were
straightforward so penal size
that's pretty straightforward turns out
petali lanes is quite different
a difficult to measure with is
relatively easy
um anybody that's just listening right
now will not have realized I just made a
weird face how is length hard to measure
because it's been changeable
meaning you can't get them erect you can
got it got it okay all right understand
I was like let me tell you it's
measurable right
but width is is a fixed you know is it
you can measure pretty reliably so we
could do that no way I for the same
reason that seems like it should be it's
much less it's much less changeable what
yeah the width is erect to limp
that's that seems shocking you're saying
that most people are roughly the same
width when they're there's much less
difference in the width than the length
that's what it's like fascinating right
okay so that's what we could do so so we
actually did measure length also and and
many studies do measure length there's
been a recent study on penile length
this just came out we can talk about it
if you want but more but
um
yeah so we had that Descent of the
testicles
is measurable a little difficult to
quantify
and because sometimes they hide in the
abdomen and you have to
bring it down and try to care for really
cold weather yeah all gone right so
um that we decided that would be an
interesting endpoint
and but the key thing was AGD an initial
distance what do we how do we do that in
humans
I mean think about it how how would you
you know so now that we've done it for
years and it's now used internationally
we have protocols and they're all
written out and straightforward to do it
but at the time when we were starting
this
we were kind of making it up as we went
along
and I had worked with some wonderful
clinicians
um pediatricians and others who you know
together we designed this exam
and got measures of AGD uh I mean just
think about for this room what is AGD
anus to the genitals where where in the
generals
that's my exact question to you because
whether like if I were warm or cold
depending on where you measure that from
it would be different
actually not so much what really makes a
difference is the landmark so do you you
start at the anus that's easy I never
thought I'd be having this conversation
by the way it was fascinating we're
going to keep going
um but where do you end what where what
is the general side of this right okay
so it turned out we ended up doing two
and one was the scrotal and one was the
scrotal connection yeah that's a
question where is that like if you're
talking scroll to connection that's not
going anywhere but warm to cold I assure
you this end of one they would be very
different distances
that's interesting because we never
consider temperature what never was this
a panel of women only doing these
measurements no no because a guy would
instantly be like hey
these are babies in a hospital okay
that's very different very different
yeah does that count for adults we don't
do measurements we do adults but let me
finish the babies so so the question is
where is the end of that measurement so
you have a calipers that's what you use
you use a pretty straightforward
calibers you open the calipers one end
you put on the I should have brought my
doll I have a doll to demonstrate this
book that is amazing I need to know how
that story I'm gonna need you to make me
a doll but I have some specific
requirements
and then the other side
I said scrotal so let's talk about that
so it turns out that the underside of
the scrotum
the scrotum is striated you know that
the tissue is different okay very very
intimately yes so there's a point at
which that tissue changes from smooth to
striated that's the point you want to go
to okay interesting okay with your other
side of your caliber alternatively you
can go all the way up to the insertion
of the penis
that's the anterior the part closest to
you right where does it enter your body
that's not so clear-cut
and we had a lot of discussion about do
we press down how hard do we press you
understand if you're going to measure
something in a population you have to
really be clear about how to do it
repeatedly
and so we did that we piloted that over
and over and over again with different
people and different until we got a
protocol that was repeatable by multiple
observers multiple times
right
I'm sure this is more about AGD than
anyone wanted to know
yeah yeah and by the way one of the
things that matters is where is the
kid's legs
when you're doing this
so it turns out that if the legs are
pulled back the mother suppose I put a
baby on my lap I take the knees I put it
back up against their shoulder then that
area is extended
right and you'll get a longer AGD so
misleadingly longer agency yeah right so
you have to make sure you pull the same
amount for everybody
so we end up getting the measurement so
the key Insight is hey this thing that
we've been using for a long time in rats
we can now do this in humans as well
right
good so we've duplicated the
whole exam of the Rat if you will in
human infants and then what did we find
so send the urine to the CDC CDC tells
us how many phthalates which salads are
in there how much are in there and then
we have these this database with now all
these measurements and so you it's now a
question of asking these two data bases
the phthalate database the a in the exam
database
what do they match up in some way and
the answer was yes that when there were
more salads particularly three most
anti-androgenic phthalates when they
were higher in the mother
the male had
a pattern which was very similar to the
um rats so they had shorter and a
general distance they had smaller penal
size they had less Descent of the testes
those are the three main endpoints that
we had
okay so this so we now know that there
this syndrome does exist in humans we
can measure it the first thing people
are going to ask is where am I getting
these things and so you did a home walk
through with people
um give us some of the most common
places is it plastic bottles is it
makeup like what are the places that
people are because we're having to
replenish it which means that I could
change my behavior and then I over some
period of time it should go away
so where we where we replenishing our
phthalate stores
so
food I would say is the major source so
that's getting tainted so milking a cow
you gave us that anytime it's going
through soft plastic we're going to be
in trouble so food uh packaging
packaging also processing I imagine
there's gonna be a lot of times yes
and um
storage transport
um
cooking so every if you think about this
little tomato plucket I hear on the farm
what does it go through before you put
it on your plate
Farm to Fork
all along that way am I looking out just
for soft plastic or are there other
places that I'm getting these
there are other places lovely so
you can get it in your
liquids
you can get it but don't my liquids have
to come into contact right some sort of
plastic okay let's leave let's leave
this off plastic out although the soft
plastic can be in many forms for example
in your shower curtain a rubber ducky
and so on and so forth so it doesn't
just have to be food
um
the I would say the foodborne exposures
of phthalates are going to be
primarily through soft Plastics Plus
their plasticizer function so every time
I see soft plastic I need to immediately
go this is giving me phthalates
because it can be absorbed the skin yes
or no so you know there's a recycling
code on the bottle
yes bottom okay so if you look at that
you'll see numbers from one to seven
okay okay now I used to say and I'll
still say uh with reservation that this
is a little poem
goes like this
five four one and two
all the rest are bad for you nice easy
right
but let's look at six six could be BPA
which we haven't talked about but we
should which is something that makes
plastic hard instead of soft
which is estrogenic instead of
anti-androgenic kind of a bad
cousin you know of the evil twin
um
but sex could also be potatoes because
it's the other category so Plastics are
made from you know there are bioplastics
I did not know that I thought they were
all coming from petroleum no they're not
there are alternatives now most are
coming from petroleum and we still get
phthalates from potatoes
no we get Plastics from potatoes
whoa okay you're you're rocking my world
here okay so there is a way to process
there is something called bioplastic
so instead of plastic and you're correct
most plastic is made from biofuels
byproducts of petroleum projection right
but as we began aware and became aware
that this was a bad thing for us to be
experiencing in our body
they sought out other alternatives
now one of them is potatoes
um the problem is that the carbon
footprint of growing those potatoes is
pretty high so what chemists are looking
for now is an alternative
that will perform the function of
plastics without the dangers of plastics
okay and I fully believe that is
possible
but it takes a lot of people willing to
put the investment in take the risk
retool you can imagine you know about
business and and what's involved in
changing a process like that it's huge
it's phenomenal and in the meantime
people want these products now I don't
think people really
would be unhappy if their plastic bottle
or container and so on was made from
a bioplastic instead of a
petrochemical plastic people are not
seeking that out they want the container
so I I think you can satisfy people's
needs and demands
through safer Plastics but that's slow
and expensive to bring on board okay
so you asked me is it just soft plastic
so let's leave that aside for a minute
and go to another route of exposure
and one another major route of exposure
is any personal care products
um that can be
um something you put on your skin and
why would that contain
phthalates
it's because the phthalates help
absorption
um
so they're kind of magical in a way they
do all these things right
um and for that reason they're added to
pesticides too because they help help
the pesticide go up the plant and stay
in the leaves and so on so absorption is
an important function softening
absorption they also and this is a
amazing they can do all these things
they also hold
scent
fragrance and color
and so it's not a big leap to think
about why they're used in cosmetics
and waddler used in fragrance products
like
nice smelling laundry soap and air
fresheners you plug in and that little
pine cone you hang in your car they're
all emitting these chemicals
it's crazy
it's crazy so this is coming out and the
things we eat it's coming out and the
things we drink and it's coming out even
in the air we breathe
uh okay so that brings us back I've
heard you say some of these things so I
can lead the witness a little bit here
but
um this it's pretty terrifying so and
maybe now is the time that we get back
into the are we or are we not chemical
processing plants only uh because when I
hear this I think well the only way
forward then if it's in what we eat
drink and breathe you have to stop using
these chemicals uh there's just there's
no other way like if if you keep
emitting all these you're going to have
the problem we are the fertility rates
are declining the rate at which they're
declining is speeding up uh it's doubled
in like the last 20 years I think it was
from 2012 to now sorry sorry sorry thank
you in fact you were very clear sperm
count has the rate at which it's
declining is very high and at the
beginning you said that we're still
holding steady at a one percent rate and
then I said well doesn't it predict that
that's going to go higher and then later
you said that our sperm count is dropped
by 50 and fertility rate has dropped by
almost the exact same amount is that a
coincidence which then I was thinking in
my head that's exactly what I'm saying
like if if the rate of sperm count is
dropping at an ever increasing rate and
the rate at which it's declining is
speeding up I think that that ultimately
is going to have to Echo back to the
overall fertility rate or there's
something I guess the only thing uh is
if they're uh artificially there's a
acronym for this but artificially
assisted fertility whatever that is
um art
so that is that why we have a break
between the exact drop in I think so
interesting so assisted art which is
um assisted reproductive technology
refers to all of the different ways that
medicine can help you get pregnant from
hormones to actually you know
putting a sperm inside an egg and
putting it in the body and
um
that has been increasing rapidly the use
of Art and the number of
options has increased
um the most dramatic is in Israel
because in Israel
uh they the government pays for up to
two live births via assisted
reproduction whoa
and you know this is very expensive what
is their birth rate at
ah
it's one of the few that has not dropped
I mean it sounds like they're going
pretty hard to make sure it doesn't yeah
yeah I want to say 3.3 but that's don't
hold me to that because yeah
um so that's interesting you know that
the and and but for most people assisted
reproduction is a
something they want to avoid if at all
possible it's it's it's difficult it can
be painful it can be definitely
expensive anxiety producing interfering
with the mental health of a couple I
would say putting a great strain on the
marriage and so on and so forth
nevertheless it is increasing the number
of children born by assisted
reproduction is increasing and
the available Technologies for this are
also increasing and I think this will
we're going to have more and more
options for for doing this
um but
um
it's not helping
the underlying biology so let me just
say if a couple is infertile if a man is
infertile the more evidence on men or
his sperm count is low his health is
impacted
so this brings up something that you and
I were talking about before we started
rolling and I said well I'm going to
restate this uh once we're back on so I
said that my mom smoked through her
entire pregnancy with me and the first
words out of your mouth were have you
had your sperm uh checked and I was like
nope my whole life I've been paranoid
about getting someone pregnant I've
never even thought about it and then you
said I don't want to scare you but
[Music]
um
men with low sperm count
and men who could not conceive a
pregnancy which is clearly related
um will die younger
they have a shorter life expectancy and
can you ballpark me on how much
I need to know how paranoid I need to be
here
um I would say that's a number that's
not real tightly
understood you know um there's a couple
of papers
um I would say we're looking at a couple
of years but that's a guess but don't
hold me to that but I can tell you some
of the things that might be affected
which is heart disease
um diabetes why
that's we'll come back to that diabetes
and
reproductive cancers
okay and the why is that so then we have
to go back and think about
this let's just think about the
thallarts again the phthalates are
lowering
testosterone androgens
and then you might ask okay what else in
the body depends on
adequate Androgen right
and the first thing that jumps out is
the brain
and we can talk about that if you want
but there every system in the body
requires
a healthy balance of these hormones so
it's I'm not a cardiologist and I can't
speak to the hormonal influences on
cardiac function and cardiac disease but
I know certainly that they affect
metabolic function
and that's related to the risk of
diabetes and so on so
if you're disturbing the system in very
early development when there's just a
few cells they're rapidly dividing
they're getting these messages
they're normal you know
development is altered by the alteration
of these hormones and that is going to
be a systemic-wide alteration so it's
not surprising to me at all it's not
that sperm count your sperm count is low
and then you have more
X Y and Z disease it's that from the
get-go you had an interruption of normal
development which had impacts on your
entire body
um
the sperm count is a little window into
that
because one of the things I mean it's
certainly not the only thing but one of
the things that sperm count indicates is
that there was an alteration
in hormonal function and that it will
affect you know your later health so I'm
I recommend to men men know too little
about their reproductive Health anyway
you know women go
to the ob
GYN every year right they got a pap
smear they get checked everything gets
checked their breasts get checked
um which is great and Men
not so much right
you don't get your reproductive I mean
you you get the boys out and they give
them a Juggle but it's
I'm certainly not making a sperm deposit
so uh yeah that's interesting
okay so I'm grappling emotionally with
the fact that this is a leading
indicator of a potential problem
uh yeah I I need to get it checked the
other thing about the mail
where do you go to get it checked though
oh yeah and my doctors never said hey
would you like to drop one off you can
say to your doctor I want to get my
sperm count tested got it um there are a
couple a couple of companies that have
come out since the book actually but
um one is called fellow one is called
Legacy they're probably other ones and
they've made it very easy because it
used to be that to get your sperm count
checked you had to go into a clinic and
you had to go through the somewhat
uncomfortable process of producing a
sample in a bathroom down the hall
but these companies allow you to do this
at home
and send the kid in and they're reliable
and they will send you back your sperm
count if you want I can give you I don't
want to promote any one company but you
know you and I can have a little
confidence yeah yeah look if you know
the place to go I'm happy to hear about
it and while I'm at it I should say you
also could have your urine tested
for lots of phthalates and phenols and
so on interesting
that seems really important right
and um a company that does that it's
called million marker and again there
are other ones
um and I suspect that companies of these
kinds are going to be increasing as we
get more and more concerned and
Technology steps in and says okay we can
help you learn about your body uh in a
way that may protect your health so I
think I think those are are good things
okay so uh if I wanted to get this back
on track so it sounds like I need to be
looking at
um I need to be taking an endocrine
approach to this I need to figure out
what my testosterone levels are I need
to check my sperm count which I assume
we're looking at amount motility
um
morphology but it's okay amazing uh and
let's say that one or all of those come
back problematic is the next step just
like obviously oh we just where is your
phthalate exposure coming from reduce
that or like is do you have a protocol
that you put people through to get back
on track well we have we work with
people that have educational programs to
try to counsel people on how to
you know detox their house if you will
and and their lives
um
but um what does your house look like
like do you have blankets so I once I
went on a kick I forget the guests I had
on but they were like yo you're taking a
lot of toxins through more things than
you can imagine like blankets and stuff
and I was like blankets they're like
yeah because of all the
um anti the flame [ __ ] stuff yeah and
so I was like oh whoa and he's like oh
but don't worry like you can get these
blankets that are like all natural and
you don't have to worry and so I got an
all-natural blanket I was like oh it
looks amazing and it arrived and it
might as well be burlap like it is not
comfortable oh so are there comfy like
do you have sandpaper for Sheets at your
house no no brush your teeth with baking
soda like what does your house look like
um
I'm I'm not a fanatic I I try to do you
measure your phthalate levels
I have but not recently I don't like
persistently
um and by the way the effect of these
chemicals on
um adults and you know is not really
well studied
most of the most of what we know is
effects on the fetus
and the young child hypothesis though
I think it matters less so the critical
periods are the periods of Rapid cell
division So In Utero obviously that's
number one and
early life infancy and puberty and
probably menopause
um but
Tom these studies cost
every one of these human studies costs
five million dollars
and takes five years
that's just to link one class of
chemicals usually
to one set of outcomes so you see it's
very hard to get this information my
Studies by the way
we didn't really finish that story about
the phthali syndrome in humans
but I did find that in that study
that we had the Sally syndrome but then
as all scientists I had to replicate
that
and then I had to design a study
specifically on that question see the
first study wasn't on designed on the
question we had some stored urine you
know we brought back the babies we put
them together great we found this
finding but what happens if you do it
right
and you design a study specifically to
ask that question that's a new Grant
have to go through Grant review terrible
process by the way
and then if you're lucky you'll get the
Grant and then that's you have to find
the women who are pregnant you have to
bring them in because will you be in the
study will you give us your urine will
you let us measure your baby
and do it all at the right time because
now we know that early pregnancy is most
important and we measured all the babies
at birth and so on and so forth so it
was much much more precise study
and we found it again
so that plus the animal studies plus
studies that have been done by many
other people now on this
lead me to say
and I don't use the word cause very much
that phthalates cause the phthalate
syndrome in humans and if you had to
give me in a sentence what is the
phthalate syndrome in humans the salad
syndrome in humans is a incomplete
masculinization of the male genital
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woof
woof like that is
um be interested to see how this
statement gets taken uh but the male
genital tract is a pretty prized
possession to the man that has it uh
and I imagine if it doesn't go well that
would be a source of of pretty great
distress well you see if if you or not
make this personal
had a somewhat shorter HED and and you
know whatever code for if I had a small
penis yeah
why would that matter seriously I think
that's why would that matter emotionally
why would that matter physiologically in
other words what is the consequence of
having the phthalate syndrome
physiologically what does that mean for
your later success as a man right yeah
well the way you're asking that question
is utterly fascinating I'm so into this
but I don't know if you actually mean to
bring in sort of the emotional side of
because when you say a man like that's a
that's a whole can of worms right there
yeah well why do we limit it to the
man's future reproductive Health okay
and success okay yep
and so we asked that question
of the men that have the syndrome yes
okay well tell me more so
I mean now are we measure children
babies they don't have sperm count that
you can measure their sperm is all
locked up until it goes through puberty
and so on so so
we had to go to
young you know men that were had sperm
count that we could measure so we did
that study and we um
we went to University of Rochester and
we got men to volunteer we went through
um
sports teams and so on and they were
very happy to do it and we paid them 75
it was like yes for 75 I'll do anything
and for 75 they give you a sample their
urine for a phthalate presence and they
let you measure their taint AGD and they
gave us a semen sample wow and they
completed 75 what year was this
and they gave us a questionnaire and
actually they allowed us to send a
questionnaire to their mothers what is
happening this is amazing for 75 I'm not
stretching a dollar nearly far enough
okay it's amazing
let's see that was I want to say
uh uh maybe 2003 so now did they have
any sense of what like did they know I
want a long taint or because like they
don't measure it anyway somebody else
measures it oh wow okay all right so so
they came into the clinic we had a
standard now that whatever we did to get
the measurements you know standardized
for infants we had to redo it yeah for
young men and
um so if you want we can talk about that
but anyway we got there AGD we got their
urine we got their salad but we weren't
really caring that much about their
current phthalates we were really caring
you know we couldn't just really wanted
to know what was in their mothers but we
didn't know that except some questions
which is a good point but the key thing
that we were asked after here is if they
had a shorter AGD did they have a lower
did they have poor statement quality and
the answer was yes
wow okay so let me say what that
predicts that predicts that if the
mother had a high phthalate
concentration in while they were
adjusting the child that that then
creates some malformity that causes
later problems producing quality sperm
correct like 15 years later correct
that's exactly right that's exactly
right yikes so now we're talking about
some of this because earlier the
difference between water soluble and fat
soluble gave me some like I felt good
good about it I was like okay
phthalate's ever present but we're able
to get rid of them pretty fast but there
are some effects that are forever
not only are they forever in
men they're forever in their sons
because here's the here's the path the
mother is exposed the sun is in her womb
the sun is exposed that's why he has the
but inside him
are the germ cells for his offspring
are those impacted by those are impacted
oh God yeah some people
have
feel they have shown I don't want to you
know trash the science
uh that this goes Seven Generations oh
my God right and I'm not sure about that
but the three is clear because it's just
right there it's a physical you know uh
it follows from the physiology
but the here's the good news
so there's a researcher in Washington
named Pat hunt
who by the way
should be you should talk to her because
she is
fabulous brilliant and and she
um she showed that if you have a rat
that's been
in this process and has been exposed to
these chemicals in a way that disturbs
his reproductive function
if you when he's born he never gets any
more exposure
and his offspring never get any more
exposure that in three generations
you can clear the clear things up and
things are back to to complete healthy
function
and by never gets any exposure again we
are saying the mother during gestation
isn't exposed and passing that on
because once he's out or I guess it
could be exposure and puberty as well
yeah I mean just keep that little rat in
a clean environment his whole life yeah
but I'm just trying to Transformers made
him I mean I can send you references if
you want but um
this was encouraging to me because I
thought wow this is reversible over
three generations that's that's a long
time in human years like maybe in Rat
years that's comforting that's but in
human years that's not comforting to me
at all but God damn three is a lot
that's like 60 years I know or 75. I
mean yeah yeah but for around six years
so that's you know kind of nice way
better but oh my God so there is this
yeah and I talk about that and countdown
also this you know
Legacy effect if you will that you're
giving your children yeah I mean let's
talk about that so Legacy effect we're
living in um in a moment right now from
a modern perspective something weird is
going on so there's this whole mating
crisis uh you've got guys aren't seeking
sex like they used to and honestly for a
long time I was just looking at what are
the societal factors that have led to
this and now I'm thinking what are the
generational impact of phthalates right
on this so for a long time I've been
making a comment that I just had a hunch
but after reading your book I'm thinking
I think I was really on to something so
we talk about the feminization of men
there's something really strange going
on first of all I don't don't use the
word feminization just because you don't
like the baggage on that yeah so let the
records like you didn't say it I did
okay but so what I prefer and you might
think about switching it is the under
masculinization
okay I'll take that right because that
doesn't have the same
the same perfect yeah so the under
masculinization of men
a wonderful addition thank you uh I've
been like I'm telling you there's some
it has something to do with
microplastics that's always been like my
throwaway to just be like there's
there's a environmental thing that's
happening here we have so much plastic
building up in our bodies and tissues
and the things we eat
and but I I had no idea what the
mechanism would be
um that is fascinating so the under
masculinization of men due to phthalates
if you had to guess what percentage of
the under masculinization problem is
phthalates are there like is it 20
there's 80 that we haven't discovered or
is this really like no no it's always
elevated I mean I guess even that's
correlation not causation I'll let you
answer the question
swag me a percentage
I'm not going to do that because I'm
going to call wait because I'm going to
say this isn't the only chemical in the
book
this isn't the only chemical in our body
and what we know now is that
um
the hole is worse than some of its parts
and and we're this is the question of
mixtures that scientists now are very
much into but if you go to the doctor
and she wants to prescribe a pill she'll
say to you what are you taking tell me
all the drugs you're taking
including vitamins right you've had that
experience and that's because of
interaction okay so what you're taking
from different for different reasons at
different times can interact in your
body so you're you might be exposed to
phthalates when you're sitting down to
eat more and then you go into the
bathroom and you you know you do your
face and you you shave and blah blah you
look exposed and then you're exposed to
say bisphenol a we have barely talked
about this final a but that's in your
Foods it's it's BPA BPA right it's in
your cash register receipts and then we
have the pfas we didn't talk about pfas
have you heard about pivas if you
mentioned in the book I would have heard
it but I don't know so pfos there are
many many chemicals in these a very big
class and they're in many products but
you can think of them as barriers these
are barrier chemicals okay so they're in
the lining of Teflon pans oh that's a
barrier
is there in your
um
Gore-Tex either waterproofing their
barrier to water they're in your pizza
boxes that's a barrier to oil getting
through
there are many of these these affect
sperm counts as well okay everything I
do sounds like it negatively impacts I
drink water out of plastic bottles which
for some reason I got it in my head that
there were some plastic bottles that
didn't have this problem uh but I drink
water out of plastic bottles uh I grew
up around as many smokers as you can
imagine
um I have pizza on the weekends uh I can
only imagine how many things from
carpets and glues and all kinds of stuff
that I expose myself to by living in a
modern house and so when you say what
percent of the decline in sperm count is
due to the phthalates let me expand that
what percent of the decline is due to
hormonally active chemicals that's the
class that we're talking about chemicals
that can affect the body's hormones or
edc's you know endocrine disrupting
chemicals okay but
Tom I have to
say that there are other things that
affect your sperm count besides
chemicals and I think we should spend a
little bit of time right and you can
think of them globally as lifestyle
and I'm sure you're familiar with a lot
of them
um so
obesity lowers sperm count
smoking as you said lower sperm count
binge drinking lower sperm count stress
has a big impact on sperm count
you know and and so
how do you control all these things I
mean good luck on controlling the stress
level especially today right yeah so me
in particular so how do you break up the
chemicals from these other things
I don't think you can and that's why I'm
very reluctant to to give a percent the
only way we could do that I think
and that would maybe be in an animal
laboratory but
stress for a rodent and it's a little
different you can stress a rodent but
you know it's different from you know
worrying about whether you can pay your
mortgage I think
um and and
so we have all of these factors that are
acting and they're probably interacting
so
let me add one more thing which we
haven't talked about and that is this is
not an equal opportunity problem
and what do I mean by that I I mean that
that people who are
stressed disadvantaged socially
challenged in various ways
um are going to be hit much more
and they're hit because they have more
exposure you think of poor people living
near a dump site living you know near a
smokestack living near a freeway
higher exposure Airborne they can't
afford to buy fresh food or they're in a
food desert food deserts you know you
and I can get all the fresh food we want
but not everyone can
okay so I tell people eat fresh fruit
that's one of my recommendations eat
fresh food if you can go to a farmer's
market get a bunch of carrots get a
bunch of tomatoes take them home eat
them that's the healthiest thing I can
think of to do
and you say that for reasons of
pesticides and things everything it
savoids everything if you if you if the
farmer has organic produce you bring it
home in a cloth bag you rinse it out
you what has it gone in contact with
and then you eat it
and maybe you cook it in a frying pan
that's not Teflon if you want to cook it
you know but you don't have to worry
about what you store it in you don't
have to worry about you know
what's happened to it in the processing
plant when it's put into the spaghetti
sauce jar and so on and so forth right
so but not everyone can do that and many
there's a for example fast food has much
higher levels of these chemicals right
so one of the things we ask our subjects
did you how often do you eat in fast
food restaurants as a screener for you
know their food born exposure
um
but aside from having higher exposure
they can't afford to buy their way out
so we haven't talked about personal care
products and how to find safe ones but
there are ways to do that and for
example
you could go to environmental working
group which is a very good organization
that lists consumer products and
personal care products and tells you
what's in them
but you've got to have the time and the
education to do that and the money to
buy those more expensive products
right
so here you have a group that is more
exposed
can't buy their way out and then the
third thing is more controversial but
it's
I'm convinced this is going on as well
the same level of exposure affects
people under stress
more
and I don't just mean psychological
stress I mean various kinds of stressors
heat stress lack of sleep stress
um metabolic stress metabolics that's
that's where this gets really terrifying
to your point about you're in a food
desert uh you're eating cheap highly
processed food you're overweight and now
it just exacerbates so now here's here's
what I love about a good hypothesis is
it makes predictions and those
predictions predictions can be tested
um what that predicts is that people
growing up in these spaces
men should be noticeably more under
masculinized than their counterparts in
more affluent areas has anybody looked
at that to see if that's actually true
no I don't
I don't know but I don't think so but
you know in our studies we always
control for
it's so hard to know how to control for
this epidemiologically you know so you
can you can
control for
the area they live in
um the mean housing and the housing cost
in that area
um other things like family size which
may introduce more stressors uh that's
interesting I hesitate to say
controlling for race ethnicity because
that is not
a cause that is a correlate
often of being in disadvantaged
situations you see so control for the
underlying causes not the correlate
um
it's very difficult it's very difficult
to separate these these various factors
but
um
we do see more
um
impacts in our poor communities and how
does that impact manifest
depends on the outcome you're looking at
I mean if you're looking at but in this
context the The Valley in our HED
Studies have to say we haven't done that
because we don't have that much
variability in our populations that I've
studied
um and the European studies are also
quite homogeneous
socio-demographically so I I don't think
I don't know of a study that's actually
addressed the question if you look at
however you're going to characterize
these disadvantages
um they don't uh I don't think there's
any that have actually looked at these
disadvantages directly as correlates of
AGD I don't know that
um
but it's it it's a good idea it's a good
idea I mean let me just say you know
covid if you think about covid covid is
a stressor I mean very different from
phthalates but it's just fresher and you
look at the impact of
covid and who got sicker and who was
hospitalized and deaths and so on you
see that disadvantaged communities are
harder hit
you know I mean that's just one one
example and and we I mean this truism
almost in epidemiology
um and so just to put that all together
you have people who
don't have the information they need
they can't buy their way out they're
harder hit because of their environment
and a given level of
stress
or methylate or whatever is going to
hurt them more
yeah this is uh this is really unnerving
to me when I step back and look at it
whether it's the most vulnerable or the
hardest hit or just that we're seeing a
very broad Global Trend that is wildly
unnerving and at first I thought that
the trend was just a weird Western
educated industrial or I forget what
that stands for uh D anyway the weird
societies as they oh Democratic is the d
uh I'm missing the r uh anyway the weird
countries I thought it was a societal
thing that we had just the ideas you
know they talk about the generational
the idea of the fourth turning every
four generations there's like a
recycling of
um stature if you will that we push back
against our parents who are pushing back
against their parents who are pushing it
back against their parents interesting
and so I thought okay we're just in that
sort of psychological cycle but hearing
that no no there's something more going
on here and the under masculinization is
is not something that we ought to look
away from and if we can really control
phthalates for instance and stop the
under masculinization of men
is that what we want are people going to
push back on that and say actually no
this is amazing and we're getting far
more diversity and this is all a
spectrum so it's these are like really
really tricky topics but to me it seems
self-evident that anything that's
happening by accident you're going to
want to address
um and while I won't fall prey to the
Natural fallacy of just because it's
natural it means that it's good a king
cobra is natural I'd rather not be
bitten by it
but at the same time this does seem like
you're messing with a dynamic that you
don't know the outcome of messing with
that and so this becomes chesterton's
fence if you see a fence in the middle
of the woods and you think why is this
fence here I'm going to knock it down
wrong move figure out what the fence is
for before you knock it down and I would
say there's such a delicate interplay
between men and women in society at
large that you mess with that at your
own Peril and given that we open this
conversation rightly so at that this is
actually uh potentially existential
crisis which by the way we never got to
we really humans really do meet the
qualification of an endangered species
because you only have to meet one of
like five different criteria and I think
when I heard you run through it we made
three of them so
um we don't have to go into that right
now but just know that humans really do
meet three of those criteria
the one that I'll I'll talk about is the
declining birth rate we we just are
we already as as you listed out in
several countries were already below
replacement levels and the world itself
is racing towards getting below the
replacement level and uh that's not a
trend that gets going in the other
direction very easily I won't say that
it can't happen it certainly can but
it's that's a really hard Trend to turn
around and given that your hypothesis is
that phthalate syndrome which is
probably responsible for a very large
portion of the decline in fertility rate
is something that leads to the under
masculinization of men like we can't shy
away from with no judgment like first of
all I have a more feminine temperament
my wife has a more masculine temperament
than you would expect from a typical guy
or a typical woman so I'm certainly not
throwing shade but I am saying that
um that the choice my wife and I made to
not have kids doesn't scale and if
everybody makes that choice we're in
trouble and if we rob people of that
choice because they desperately want
kids and can't have kids that is that's
really gnarly I won't use the phrase
crime against humanity but I'll mention
that I'm not using it so
um it's I would say it's pretty
problematic do you think I'm overstating
it
I think that was excellent
um
no I don't think you're overstating it
and I think you stated it well
um
I wanted to go back to testosterone can
we do that for a minute
so
there's um a growing I've talked about a
lot of Trends one of them that I didn't
talk about is the decrease in
testosterone the increase in erectile
dysfunction
more young men using testosterone
um which by the way lowers your sperm
count which lowers your stroke which is
crazy super counterintuitive but true
absolutely and um so I just want to tell
you two things one is
there's a paper out of China in workers
who
manufacture BPA Bismillah that's the
chemical that makes plastic hard this is
not this is Metal by the way but but a
hard water bottle
um is is BPA and
um uh
men working making that product had
significantly more ed
okay when I told this
to Dulce Sloane do you know who Dulce
Sloan is the Today Show no she's um a
comedian and um she was had this great
line which I'll share with you because
it's
so she's thinking about this and she
says I got it he can either have
a hard water bottle or a hard dick but
not both
Fair it's good it's a good line and it
says something that you know you people
should think about
um but on the other side we asked our
women
a question in our survey about their
sexual satisfaction
and how often did they have sex and how
satisfied they were with their sex life
and women who had higher levels of these
anti-androgenic phthalates had less
sexual satisfaction and less sex okay
now you're gonna have to tell me why you
think that is is it because their
husbands are also thusly probably high
in that and can't get an erection is it
actually hampering their ability to
reach orgasm themselves
I
I'm not sure what they were answering to
that sort of general question but they
weren't happy with their sex life more
likely to be unhappy with it whether
that meant they didn't orgasm or whether
they didn't have as much sex or they
didn't or there has been
didn't want to have sex so uh it's
probably true that if she's more exposed
he's more exposed
unless it's something that's in her
products only you know but that's
unlikely
um so what is happening
is that testosterone is needed
by men and women
and it's an intimate driver of libido in
men and women so this drop in
sexual activity this rise in women in
Japan wanting to marry themselves did
you see that crazy crazy
I'm not surprised that I mean this is
going to be tied to a lowering of
testosterone there's many things that
can lower testosterone and by the way
our group is now investigating in the
same way we investigated sperm count
we're investigating testosterone over
time
um but
um
the data does look like it's going down
significantly you know that's an early
look and not not for the front page or
anything but it really does look you
know in the studies that have looked at
it it is going down
well so you're being uh wonderfully
cautious like any good scientist would
be but in YouTube circles that's just
taken as like day Reger that yeah 100
sperm count or um testosterone levels
have plummeted by a lot I don't remember
the stat that people throw up 30 50
somewhere in there that it is a massive
fall off in testosterone levels from
they started measuring this back in like
the 1940s or something so we have data
for quite some time
uh and that is yeah I mean that speaks
to the under masculinization now what's
interesting is that okay well that you
can up their levels right so you can
give them exogenous testosterone and
lower their sperm count as you said yes
but so here and and I will I know I've
already told you this my honest probably
knows but I'll just say it my wife and I
have decided not to have kids so uh it's
possible we can it's possible we can
just don't know it yeah but we don't
want kids and so I haven't even thought
about that so my Obsession isn't around
sperm count at the societal level 100
but at an individual level I I can just
attest you can have an amazing life
whether you have kids or not and so that
one like not
at a societal level I care very much but
at an individual level people enjoying
their life and loving it I worry very
much about a drop in testosterone
because that is if you're in a marriage
and your libido dies the odds of your
marriage dying
Skyrocket this is me talking I'm not
giving you a stat but
I just bed depth is one of the things
that I fear most for couples yeah
because you become roommates it's very
different
um so testosterone levels dropping in
men and women strikes me even if you
don't want kids striking me as wildly
problematic needs to be addressed but
can be addressed through
um trt testosterone replacement therapy
and it's actually something that I've
started thinking about
um I haven't done it yet so I'm about to
turn 47 as we record this
and I haven't done it yet but I
I will often tell people Monday through
Friday if I'm awake I'm either working
or working out
and when I say that there's always this
little voice in my head that was like
you weren't like that in your 20s or 30s
because there was no Universe in which I
was only going to have sex on the
weekends when I was you know 27 like
four get it no way there was nothing and
I was ambitious even back then there was
nothing I wanted badly enough to give up
sex and so now I'm like okay it's not
like the rhythm of only on the weekends
for me is perfect I don't even think
about it I don't lament it it's all good
and so I was like oh like and I remember
my doctor asking me
um right before covid he was like uh
how's your libido Mike's great it's
normal and so now though I'm like it it
has dropped precipitously since I was
25. and
should I try it obviously muscle mass
will be easier et cetera et cetera also
I struggle with anxiety so I made huge
gains of my anxiety by uh changing my
diet transformational changed my life
I've always said and look this is just a
swag but that it improved my anxiety by
seventy percent well how did she change
her so I was drinking uh diet monster
and I always feel bad saying this
because diet monster I love you guys
it's delicious unfortunately it gives me
anxiety and I didn't know what it was
for a long time and finally one day I
was like
I had changed so many things in my diet
my lifestyle is it so it's the sugar is
it no it's not sugar because there's no
sugar in diet in diet mountains so I
don't know what ingredient it is because
I don't get that from Diet Coke for
instance but I do get it from diet
monster now unfortunately in the moment
when I drink diet monster I feel exactly
the way I want to feel I feel alert
awake it's delicious I love drinking it
but the next day I feel anxious it's a
drug yeah it's a great drug love it the
most unfortunately I've had to
completely remove it from my diet
because once I realized that's what was
causing the background anxiety because
that was when when anxiety went from
manageable to oh I really have a problem
was when it became generalized so I was
just anxious all the time it wasn't
there was nothing going on I would just
be sitting there and I'm like I'm
anxious what is happening and so that's
when I realized my the first step for me
was admitting it to my wife who I
thought would have no sexual attraction
to me if she knew that I had anxiety uh
which didn't end up being true for
anybody listening but fine only being
able to talk about it then I could start
trying to pinpoint what's causing it and
it was easy like if it's a you know if
if I'm about to go give a big speech
right now I would still get anxious this
deep into my journey but that I can
understand like that makes sense to me
but when I'm in a living room with my
family and I can't bring myself to tell
a story and you know I'm talking like
four or five people in a living room the
closest people to me in the world I
couldn't tell a story I was like okay we
now have a problem uh and so made a
bunch of Lifestyle Changes including
just becoming absolutely fanatical about
meditation it was getting much much much
much much much better but it was still
generalized and I would get I would get
anxiety from making a left turn when I
normally made a right turn and I was
like what is going on so anyway that's
when I was like okay there's something
in my diet and if somebody were coming
to me and saying I'm having a problem
what advice would I give them and I'd
say whatever you're eating a lot of cut
it out it's guaranteed that and so I was
like all right what am I doing a lot of
and I was like okay it could be eggs
could be beef could be diet monster and
I'm like Diet monster is most obvious
I've heard people say that artificial
sweeteners could cause a problem so let
me cut it out and see what happens cut
it out didn't notice didn't notice
didn't notice and so I would not drink
it for a day and then I didn't notice
any difference and I drink it the next
day the problem was it was never getting
out of my system
so finally I was like all right I'm
gonna go cold turkey for like three
weeks and see what happens and it
diminished dramatically and then I had
one and I didn't notice anything so I'm
like maybe it wasn't a monster so I'm
like what is it and so then finally over
time I realized oh I don't get it when I
drink it I get it the next day and so
now that I know it's like anyway I bring
all this up in the context of
testosterone because one thing I've
heard is that testosterone can also
impact anxiety and so I'd be very
interested to see if I can further
diminish the remaining anxiety that I
still have uh through trt mm-hmm
so I
am not an expert on trt at all and and I
can't and I'm not a clinician just clear
about that right epidemiologist
um and um
I would see a urologist
and just say I mean you have neurologist
for testosterone yeah interesting not an
endocrinologist
well he might refer you or she might
refer you to to an endocrinologist I
would start with the with a urologist
and and
um
you know just to just see what they say
I I just don't know I don't know but but
um I know of people who have used trt
successfully happily
um but I certainly can't endorse it or
you know I don't I don't know it's not
my field so you know but
you're studying it now which is
interesting so yeah what are your
why testosterone then why pursue that
because it's clearly looked to libido
and it has to be linked to reproductive
function you know it's just another
measure of reproductive function and
it's clearly linked to the chemicals
that I'm concerned about so it's
directly right there in the interface
between the outcomes I'm interested in
and the exposures I'm interested in it's
probably Q to the whole puzzle yeah
yeah so going back to my obsession with
the under masculinization of men the
societal impacts that that's having I'm
very keen to hear more about the studies
on testosterone that would have been
before I read your book and learned
about phthalates that would have been
other than that sort of throwaway
comment that I would always make that I
know microplastics are going to be in
here somewhere
um I would have thought that the problem
would have been solved by trt I didn't I
wasn't aware of the just sledgehammered
of fertility that our phthalates in
gestation again I want to be clear that
that's what you're saying
um okay so we don't know if it's
impacting uh us as adults but as I think
we are chemical processing plants and
literally nothing more
um I don't see how it couldn't have and
doesn't have some impact
um which brings us back to testosterone
at the beginning when I brought this up
you said I think there were more than
chemical processing plants I'm curious
what's more do you think I don't think I
said I think I said I'm not sure that's
all we are okay it's interesting that's
different for you
um now is that you making a case for the
soul or no am I totally misery no I I
just think that
[Music]
um
[Laughter]
I don't see where
Aesthetics comes in here
ethics comes in I mean there's there's
many aspects of human life
um
you might ask that question of a rat
and and does that mean the same thing
for a rat and human
to be a chemical processing plant
um
what does it have to do with our
Consciousness for example which by the
way is the area of my husband studies I
believe that if you open up the brain
you see structures in there that are
made of chemicals definitely you know
and that's what we are I
um but
the pro the word processing is
complicated isn't it yes yes I think
it's the important word that's the
important word and what is going on with
that processing and is there something
qualitatively different in
human or let's just say let me just back
up so so do you know what the mirror
test is
if you're talking about vs Roman
chandran's mirror box yes no then no I
do not so
um oh people animals that can recognize
themselves yeah yeah that's right and
very few can very few species can right
us dolphins
certain monkeys
um
and crows I believe that's interesting
man you know
this is Stephen my husband feels that
you could talk to him about it but but
um
that
distinguishes us
mirror tests positive people species if
you will from answer
robots you know I mean
um and so
that's why I say maybe
I think you know the chemicals involved
in a crow's brain or a dolphin's brain
or physiology are probably very similar
to ours
and but probably also similar to those
in a chicken
who does not pass the mirror test so
I don't know so I will grant you that a
more complete statement would be that we
are
the structures of our brain matter a lot
and if you let me manipulate either
structures in your brain through trauma
so I just let me damage some of the
structures you'll be fundamentally
different if you let me damage your
neurochemistry I can change I could
literally control every emotion you have
if you let me control the neurochemistry
so it is fair to say that it is a
provocative albeit incomplete sentence
to say we are just chemical processing
plants I I will concede the point as I
as I think about but I will we're
structures and chemicals I don't think
we're anything else I have to think if
there's another gotcha uh
but yeah what I'm always trying to get
people to understand I'm obsessed with
this idea that you're having a
biological experience which is is the
more encompassing way to say this I want
people to understand that
um even if we are
God created
God decided for whatever reason to make
you experience this life through biology
and if you understand biology then
you're going to understand a lot more
about yourself and this is why I think
that your book is the right entry point
for the discussion about what's
happening in society today like people
may they think they want to talk about
the mating crisis but in reality they're
already once removed from the causal
factor which is at least in part
influenced by these chemicals that
you're in taking there's probably also
the societal swings that come with the
different generations and all that right
but there really is like if you were
going to give me one master control
switch and you said you can control
chemistry or you can control culture
I'll take chemistry every day right
right and you have to throw Gene that
includes genetic alterations right yeah
that's interesting I didn't mean that
um would I rather be able to control
chemistry or genes
yeah it's all the genes are going to be
what either processes the chemistry well
or not right so you really have a
multifactorial problem right right
that's very true
so thinking about us as were these
biological creatures its structure its
chemistry
um and then marrying that to what's
going on societally
um with gender dysphoria what what are
the thoughts I know that you've thought
about this you've talked to people about
this how do you approach that very
delicate subject
so the the first thing that
you know people the way I'm usually
asked this is what do you think about
the increase
in gender dysphoria yeah it's a great
way to ask him
and then I answer
I don't know there's been an increase
and the reason I say that is because
we don't have historical records
um I know that there are cultures
that existed for a long time where
there was the Third Way
you could be male female or the third
way I don't know if you've heard of
those but I have yeah so big in
Polynesian cultures if I'm not mistaken
some Native American cultures and so on
yeah so I I will ask the question this
way while neither of us will ever be
able to know if people were just hiding
it and Under reporting it
um it does seem to have Ratched it up so
quickly it seems impossible to
um
say that it was it's just societal
acceptance alone and now I don't have
the stats in this but so like we were
talking earlier everything makes a
prediction so if people were just hiding
it and now they're finally able to bring
it out one would expect either there to
be a commensurate uptick in people
um rating themselves as homosexual or
that it would follow a graph as
homosexuality became more acceptable
what happened to those rates compared to
now as transgenderism becomes more
accepted or gender dysphoria becomes
more accepted is it following a similar
trajectory I don't know the answer to
that but my gut instinct having lived
through both moments where it was like
being gay was really like there was
really negative societal consequences
and then watching that dissipate
thankfully and seeing like people come
out it it feels it feels this is just
emotion n of one but it feels
way more rapid now could that be just
that oh you now have the internet and so
that makes all of this more possible and
again I don't have the answer but it
this feels
qualitatively different in a way that I
imagine somebody does have stats on this
so
um maybe we set that part aside since we
don't know and won't be able to answer
that
what is the the next step like is your
your work
makes I would say value judgment that
says hey we shouldn't be disrupting
Endocrinology willy-nilly by putting
things into food water in the air
um if that is
tied as I would imagine some people
would hypothesize
is tied to the um
shifting on the the gender Spectrum
right so if we accept that gender is a
spectrum just like I've always said that
I have a while I would say that I fall
within ranges of being typically
masculine I'm on the lower end and so
I'm highly verbal I find it very easy to
be in touch with my emotions to
communicate my emotions my wife is
similar in that she falls within
traditional feminine but is definitely
on the more masculine side so I can
completely buy into that as a spectrum
and as a spectrum that is detached not
detached in fact this might be where we
argue
I would say that they are so correlated
to your genetic sex that when people try
to completely divorce the two that's
where it seems weird to me I don't I
don't think that will be a fruitful way
to Think Through the issue to say that
the two are completely uncorrelated
so
I don't think we need you guys to get to
the
verbal distinctions between sex and
gender
um there's genetic I you might have
noticed I always use the term genetic
male and genetic female and that's just
the presence of a y chromosome or not
and do you differentiate that between
genetic sex
so is genetically male the same as you
are the sex male yes
and and for me
I you know the arguments and I don't
want to get into those because that's
not what my work is about of whether
of the relationship and gender and sex
it's very much a question of usage let
me talk about three categories okay my
interest is because I'm interested in
these chemicals is whether these
chemicals play any role in
various aspects of sexual development
which are on if you want on the spectrum
between generous sex
um so the first thing is what used to be
called disorders of sexual development
DSD right and that is a condition where
you have for example
over a
intestines in the same individual you've
heard of that right
uh you're talking about intersex yeah
yeah yeah
and that can be caused
caused
by chemicals
and and there's a researcher Tyrone
Hayes is at Berkeley and he's found that
in the wild in frogs exposed to atrazine
and other pesticides he sees takes them
back to lab they have ovaries
and testicles in the same animal and
they know how to reproduce that
yes and then he does it in the lab then
he takes was he the same guy that can
also make frogs homosexual yes yes
that's really really interesting right
that's the next step that's what I was
going to tell you so so that so we can
chemicals cause intersex DSD yes
no question okay in frogs just to be and
frogs absolutely thank you and
then you go to the next level if you
will or the another level which is
um homosexuality so what is that that's
the desire to have sex with someone of
the other genetic of the of your same
genetic sex right and heterosexual other
okay are we okay with that yeah yeah
okay can chemicals cause homosexuality
and Tyrone Hayes showed yes
okay because he produced frogs that
preferred to mate males with other males
nice photographs and you know I don't
know if you've seen them but I haven't
no I'm not surprised because again
understanding my stance in the world
it's either structure or chemicals like
I don't see any other options so so that
so there
on those two levels chemicals can make
cause these changes these
um
what should we call them we're not going
to call them
oh they're not malformations they're not
they're differences right their
differences okay now the third one is
the hard one right
and the question is
to be gender dysphoric
seems to be a question of how you view
yourself
it is how you feel
that you're you feel you're born in the
wrong body okay you cannot ask animals
this question
and so we don't have a way to you know
say okay well there's an animal yes
I asked Tyrone
of this question and he said well
some of those frogs that prefer to have
sex males with males
prefer to always be on the bottom
and some prefer to be on the top
interesting
so he said that's the only
clue we have of what they're thinking
what they prefer what they want
that's fascinating that's all I can give
you because that's all I know but I
suggest you might want to talk to Tyrone
because he he knows more about this than
anybody is he coming at it from that
lens like is he aware of the sort of
raging social debate around the issue
and now he's looking at the frogs
through that lens
I don't think so
conversation at a meeting
that caused him to step back and say
well actually you know I've seen this
behavior and whether that means that
they are dysphoric in some way that they
are always choosing the female role even
though they have male genitals
um and prefer that and would want to be
that
how can we know that you know so the pro
that's the problem we cannot
I don't know beyond that what animal
model could help us with this okay so
um to say our chemicals involved in
gender choice
I I don't know I don't know and I don't
know how to answer it and as a scientist
it's not oh
it's not a question I know how to shape
I don't know how to make the hypothesis
I don't know how to set up the
experiment that would answer that
question let's see if we can do it in
real time so all right if you have well
so Tyrone is looking at it I think in a
in a pretty interesting way which is
okay what behaviors could we pull out
from this but uh the thing that you did
to come up with your original study
feels like the right way to approach
this problem so you get the phthalate
levels of people and then you check
especially if you're talking if the
hypothesis is around pregnant women get
the urine of pregnant women and then
look at I mean the measurement you guys
came up with was the taint great so you
see if there's any relationship between
those so then the question becomes in
this what are things that we could look
at
um so
one if the hypothesis that you have with
around these chemicals is true it's like
okay what are other things that we could
look for is there a symphony of
chemistry that we could look for in a
pregnant woman that's predictive uh are
there uh chemicals at puberty that could
be predictive because obviously at this
point we shouldn't over assume that we
know which is which is this something I
know some people have gender dysphoria
very young but other people that it's
rapid onset in their
um typically adolescent years uh tends
to skew female tensesque autistic which
is very interesting uh and I maybe I
should say that in a better way there is
a disproportionate number of people with
Autism that also Express Rapid under
rapid onset gender dysphoria so you
would end up needing to go into these
threads and come up with a hypothesis is
this chemical based is this societally
based and then that hypothesis is going
to make a prediction if we take the
chemical route we just walk through what
that would be if you have a societal
hypothesis then you need to figure out
okay if they have if they spend more
than nine hours a day on Tumblr whatever
I am making that up but it's like you
would go in and collect that data and
then you would see at least if there was
correlation if there's correlation you
think of that as the uh the smoke that
might be pointing to the fire and then
you craft more and more clever uh tests
and hypotheses as you go the only thing
that bums me out about this is because
this seems very doable
um but this is so fraught and people
don't even like to talk about it a lot
of judgment comes around it and I just
don't have any judgment one of my best
friends forever is transgender and I've
always said you can't hate that which
you love uh so for me it's like I I'm
just curious like how how does this
stuff come about knowledge is always
useful
um but if we can't talk about it we're
never going to be able to figure this
stuff out
so what you're suggesting is actually
possible
with enough
um
with a will to do it and the money okay
so there is um
I have had several pregnancy cohort
studies
in which we have urine not much left by
the way because we keep testing it but
there are other studies like this and
they're actually all over the world
there's a Danish Birth Cohort there's
Swedish Selma study and so on and so
forth and in the United States there's
something called Echo so Echo is a
sort of a synthetic cohort where a lot
of cohorts have been put together
so it would be possible I think with a
will to do this
to collect urine samples from a large
number because you need a large number
for this is a rare occurrence right
um still rare whatever however you
measure
um you have to get a large number of
participants who would allow us to look
at their urine and then the children
would be willing to come in
and be tested so there are
some pretty good instruments you know
for testing for gender dysphoria and
it's not it's not impossible then to ask
whether the responses to those questions
differed by what was in the mother's
urine I think that's the experiment that
could do this but
there are many people that would not
even want that question asked because it
sounds like then this is a a bad thing
and there are many many maybe most
people who are gender dysphoric and
choose to transition feeling that they
are now liberating themselves that this
is a good thing maybe they are
liberating themselves maybe it is a good
thing but my thing is to understand
something is I don't think I I
legitimately cannot think of anything
where ignorance was the better option
yeah and so understanding why I am the
way that I am for instance doesn't make
any of that worse right so
um just everything comes back there is
some cause there is some cause right and
so to know that cause right
um
I don't see how that would ever be
bad and I should add I haven't we
haven't gone there but um
salads are related to
um language learning and play
so play is a very complicated question
because many people say players all
Society it's all Society what how you
play
certainly is a large proportion of
society but there isn't standard
instrument called the preschool
activities inventory
and it's been around for
I don't know 20 30 years and it's been
used all over the world and what it asks
is 24 questions
how often does your child play with
dolls how often does your child play
dress up how often does your child play
with cars how often does guns and so on
and so on and so forth
before I tell you the answer I'll tell
you that they also observe monkeys
making toy choices
so not socialized right and male monkeys
tend to choose cars given a choice of
cars and dolls and female monkeys tend
to choose the doll
yeah there's no I get from an
evolutionary standpoint it just makes
sense to me right so if they're I'm a
comic book junkie if there is an image
that has a person and a robot in it
might as go right to the robot don't
know why I was fascinated I just saw
something
what's that who goes to the robot my
eyes I'm always driving to the max
robots obsessed yeah obsessed I don't
know what it is right but it is
um it's really fascinating and so look
people can be really horrible to each
other and so I get why people can get
defensive if people are just a jerk to
you then yeah I get it defenses go up
and people want to push people back but
anyway I wish people would be more
open-minded your book certainly blew my
own mind wide open where can people
follow you get the book where do you
want them to go to enjoy well of course
I want them to read countdown which you
can get on Amazon of course and
um I would like to
um mention that if you want to learn
more about these chemical and the
literature you know science on this
chemicals environmental health news
comes out every day you can look it up
you can subscribe to it
um and
um you can contact me at um shotus1.com
I love it thanks so much for coming on
the show everybody if you haven't
already be sure to subscribe and until
next time my friends be legendary take
care peace
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I honestly think that you could look at
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