Kind: captions
Language: en
I want to start with a quote from your
hyper viral talk on the Oxford debate
stage uh you talking about wal culture
and so in the quote you're going to say
this side so I just want people to know
this side means this side of the debate
effectively and we on this side of the
house are not on this side of the house
because we do not wish to improve the
world we sit on this side of the house
because we know that the way to improve
the world is to work is to create it is
to build and the problem with Walt
culture is that it's trained too many
young minds like yours to forget about
that I want to know why is it training
people to forget about that there has to
be a reason and there has to be a reason
that that's catching on well why can
have two meanings can't it because you
can have the what for meaning or why as
and because of right and I don't think
there's much of a what for I think it's
much more of a because I think uh
victimhood sells well people in our
current Society believe that being a
victim gives you advantages because it
does because it does if you say you know
I'm an immigrant which I am uh therefore
and you list a bunch of things that are
difficult for you it's weaponized
empathy we live in a society where we
believe
that being a victim has some kind of
moral value almost right and so I think
we are we are training kids by
incentives we're incentivizing
victimhood and so people are becoming
you know it's like these kids who you
know who are like no point no not 1%
Native American and stuff like why would
you do that why are we now seeing
increasingly people identify into groups
that we're supposedly told that being
discriminated against people claiming to
be things that they're not actually in
order to find themselves in a position
where they can say well I'm a victim too
right so I don't think there's any grand
plan behind it I just I believe human
beings respond to incentives and if you
incentivize victimhood then you're going
to get
victims okay I'm with you on that but it
feels like this kind of thing is going
to Arise at certain times in history so
I started saying to basically anybody
who would listen this probably 15 years
ago maybe more that some people need to
be chased by a lion MH and it was me
sort of grappling with this idea of
people latching on to ideas that felt
like there's nothing in your life
crowding out you seeking a fight and
because the fight for survival isn't
your daily reality and things aren't
hard now all of a sudden you find
yourself drifting towards um things that
don't yield the desired outcome because
you're not in a life or death situation
and so I'll I'll back that off and say
because I'm in business and The Business
itself is constantly in a life or death
situation you just become so pragmatic
and you have to look at data and you
have to look at what is working what is
not working and so there's a quote from
Thomas soul that I I have just become
obsessed with which is the last 30 years
have been marked by exchanging what
worked for what sounds good yes and I'm
just like that makes sense but it like I
I want those things to be true those
things being like some of the ideas of
communism and stuff they really sound
awesome but in reality like the numbers
just don't bear it out and so that idea
I'm I wonder if the ideas of what the
what divides the culture war of victim
mentality I wonder if those incentives
became incentives because we actually
have it so good there's no longer a
fight that's banging down your door and
it almost becomes a a belief system that
only people in luxury can have yes and
so I think there are two parts to it I
think yes that and you know as you were
talking the line that came to me is life
is suffering is that Buddhist is that
what the Buddhist say the Buddhists
certainly say that suffering arises from
desire I don't know if they say flat out
life is suffering but it certainly
sounds like suffering yeah the idea is
out there the idea is out there that
life is suffering and so if you don't
have suffering then you're going to
create it for yourself and you know I I
don't have a great grand the theory of
this but my own experience of life is
that the very best things that I've
experienced as a result of overcoming
adversity it's the most fulfilling thing
and not least because when you overcome
adversity it gives you the most powerful
feeling that you can have that I've ever
experienced which is the the being in
control of your life it gives you the
illusion and is just an illusion of
being in control of your life and so I
think when you don't have that adversity
you're likely to end up in a position
where you look for it elsewhere you look
for things to overcome so yes prosperity
and comfort and safety and all these
things that we enjoy in the modern West
I think produce this but also you hid
the nail on the head when you were
talking about Tomas sa who is just I
mean he's a brilliant he's
legit the the point that you make about
substituting things that work for things
that sound good is so apt to the current
moment because of the internet and
because of social media because a lot of
the communication about these issues is
a product of a medium which rewards
ideas that sound good and punishes ideas
that sound bad if I say to you you know
what are what are some of the the things
that are that sound good you know all
things to all people look after
everybody blah blah blah blah blah
sounds good what if I say to you your
life is your
responsibility it's up to you to make
what you want out of your opportunities
and the difficulties that you experience
no one's coming to save you no one right
we both know this no one's coming to
save you but it doesn't sound good it
sounds terrible um and so if you have a
system which amplifies ideas that sound
good but don't work that is how you end
up in the position that we're ending up
in
and
increasingly some of these ideas are
beginning to clash with reality you know
and and that's really the big narrative
collapse that I see coming is at some
point these things will get so bad that
reality will come and and slap Us in the
face very very hard that's my big fear
so when I look at what's going on when
when a society gets to the point that
we're at where we're just hyper affluent
like even uh you know obviously there
there is a point where people don't have
enough calories and okay they have truly
fallen off the ladder but even for
people that are in poverty and I have
seen poverty up close
uh we were talking before we started
rolling um I have gotten to know a lot
of people that have grown up in the
inner cities and so I've been inside
their homes and I big brothered for a
kid uh in Compton and South Central he
moved around for eight and a half years
so I really really got to see it up
close they have refrigerators they have
air conditioning they have homes but the
neighborhoods are deadly and there there
is fundamental things about that are
completely
broken but there are so many luxuries
that we take for granted and so as I was
looking at that and I had a thousand
employees that grew up in the inner
cities and I was like wow this isn't a
money problem this is a ideas problem
they have a mindset that is moving them
backwards but when I say that I know how
much that rils people up but it goes
back to what you said about it doesn't
sound good to say that you're in control
that nobody's coming to save you but
that's what works M and so if you take
Kobe Bryant's advice he has it's rapidly
becoming my favorite quote which is that
booze don't block dunks and the idea
that you can get so good at something
that people can't stop you from
succeeding now that puts you in a
position to be aggressive in skill
acquisition if you get aggressive in
skill acquisition and you meet minimum
requirements there is a certain amount
of intelligence which is why I love that
there's a social safety I believe in all
that I think it's wonderful there some
people that just aren't going to be able
to compete in that sort of Realm but
once you Embrace okay wait a second
nobody's coming to save me but I can get
so good at something that matters it
could be being a school teacher it
doesn't have to be running a business or
whatever but I can get so good at that
thing that I will always be able to make
ends meet I'll always be able to have a
roof over my head Comfort Etc but that
when we're in this state where we have
that sort of default level of comfort
that you get into a positive feedback
loop
where your ideas because your ability to
eat is not hanging in the balance that
you end up in a situation
where you your ideas never get put to
that life or death test and so you can
Embrace ideas that aren't going to force
you to move yourself forward and when
you're in that situation there's nothing
to unwind it there's nothing to point
out this is a bad idea and it's not
going to lead anywhere until it all
collapses and the society breaks and now
people are are in the kind of pain and
suffering that you need to be in to make
radical change and R alio really
outlines this well with the six stages
that any Empire goes through and there
the six stage is total collapse it's
usually war and that's the transition
from five to six and he puts us in
halfway through phase five and for
anybody or stage five for anybody that
doesn't know Ray Delio built the largest
hedge fund in the world this is a guy
who put his money where his mouth is bet
that his assessment of the global
macroeconomic situation is accurate and
one more than anyone else in history and
he's saying hey boys and girls you're at
stage five and a half and when when you
look at that do you see a way out of
this do you see a way to get people to
exchange what sounds good for what works
I don't want to give you an answer that
sounds good but doesn't
work I don't know is the truth
Tom all I know is what my mission is in
this space that's all I all all I know
is I've got to say what I'm saying I've
got to try and wake people up to make
them
aware is it futile I genuinely don't
know I I just know that those of us who
are aware of this issue have a duty to
say something and have a duty to try and
bring people to that understanding
because if we don't and I keep making
this point wherever I go we don't
operate in a vacuum there are other
people in other places who would also
like to be prosperous who would also
like to be comfortable who would also
like to be powerful and then teaching
their children that their countries
share they're not teaching their
children that the history of their
country is defined by the worst elements
of it they're teaching their children to
be strong confident intelligent well
educated to the extent that they can
with the resources that they have um
whereas we are doing the opposite we are
using our tremendous resources to teach
young people to hate their own country
and I I'm not a smart as as the guide
that you're talking about in terms of
being able to plot out the the course of
civilization I'm just saying look may
maybe this isn't a good recipe for for
the success of our civilization and our
society and the reason I think that
matters is that I have lived in places
many places that are not the Western
world that do not operate by the same
rules that do not value the things that
we value and who's to say that you know
some people would argue that you know
well you know the Chinese have their own
value system and the Russians have their
own and they're all relative to each
other and blah blah blah blah blah who
knows who's right or wrong I just know
that for me and for people who who who
are like me and who think like me the
preservation and survival and
flourishing of the West is very very
important because the sort of things
that we believe in the sort of values
that we have they don't survive well in
those other cultures they they're not
celebrated or encouraged or what are
Western values so I think there are
several I mean one of them and the
crucial one is the sanctity of the
individual this is the most important
thing that separates us from everybody
else or certainly from the many other
major civilizations so if you look at
for example what's happening in Ukraine
right now Vladimir Putin has absolutely
no hesitation about sending hundreds of
thousands of men to die in Ukraine for a
small piece of land uh because the
individual is not that valuable indeed
in Russian mythology you know not
mythology as in you know Gods but you
know the myths that a society tells
itself about itself uh the sacrifice of
the ordinary citizen for for the monarch
for the leader is a noble and Brilliant
thing and the this kind of you know we
lost 20 th 20 million people in World
War II and yet people in Russia prior to
this war and now the they would drive
around Moscow with bumper stickers that
said we can do this
again right because we defeated Nazism
and the fact that it cost us 20 million
lives due to incompetence and and all
sorts of other things that happen
happened under Stalin that made that war
so bloody and brutal that's fine it's
not a problem we won and we can do it
again right uh the Chinese again the way
their attitude to you know Co happens
let's lock you in your home it's fine
you know I remember there was a I don't
know if you saw this there was a clip of
a drone flying around outside of one of
these apartment blocks in Beijing
somewhere which said you must suppress
your something like unnatural desire for
liberty or something like that right wow
I I may be misquoting but the sense of
the sense was the same so the the
central thing of Western Civilization is
to me at least that I see is the idea
that you
matter you as an individual matter your
right matter your you have uh value in
and of yourself by being a human being
uh in a way that other civilizations
don't because they're much more
collectivist in nature and so
sacrificing you know it's like if you if
you had to cut off a toe to save your
whole body that's a good deal right and
that's how a lot of other cultures think
about individual human beings too we
don't we generally don't we don't think
about it in that way we we value the
individual um and then on top of that
with that comes a whole slew of other
things if the individual is valuable and
is sacred in some way uh that means that
that individual has a right to express
their opinions they have a right to
pursue happiness this is written into
the American Constitution they they have
a bunch of things that they're entitled
to do to speak their mind to research
the things in science that they want to
do and in my view you know one of the
reasons that we are successful in terms
of science of technology is we have the
culture that produces better Science and
Technology because of those freedoms
right and this is the point I've always
tried to make to people in the west is
like the fact that we sit in this lap of
luxury and technological sophistication
and advancement and comfort um is a
product of our cultural values and our
history uh it's not all about
colonialism it's also about the fact
that we had a certain way of looking at
the world that was closer to creating
the reality that we have than other ways
of looking at the world right uh and
it's the preservation of that way of
looking at the world that I think is
really important and the part of the
problem with what's going on now and one
of the reasons that I oppose you know
whatever you want to call it
progressivism or wokeness or whatever is
precisely because it is antithetical to
those values um you know the idea for
example that human beings should be
treated on the content of their
character is not an idea that really
exists anywhere in the in the world
fundamentally other than the West uh you
know the idea in Russia the idea that
like a gay man is equal to a straight
man it's absurd
would never occur to someone to think in
that way gay people are minority look we
don't always have to beat them up but
but they're not but they're not real men
right that's a large part of how many
people in that country would think
um you know if you're a weager in
China again you know no one cares about
your rights you go in a
camp
and what bothers me about what we're
doing in Western Society is we're
undoing this very novel and quite
radical idea by human standards that it
doesn't matter what your skin color is
doesn't matter what your Sexes we are
going to try to treat each other on the
basis of the fact that we're both
individuals and connect with each other
through our minds and through our hearts
without looking at all the superficial
meat suit [ __ ] that doesn't actually
matter right that to me is valuable and
I'm not prepared to be quiet when people
trying to throw out out the window it's
really interesting so the fundamental
Schism being uh the collective versus
the individual certainly um an argument
that I find very compelling the thing
that I think that addresses
that see it's it's very uh out of
fashion is that that idea
plants the overcoming of things like
slavery like bigotry like uh having a
problem like if you go back you don't
have to go back very far to see G people
being just absolutely ostracized and yet
now being more and more welcomed because
it's like if if there is and I'm not
religious but I like the idea of there's
a spark of divinity inside every human
there's something special there's
something
sacred
and when you have that that idea becomes
a bit of a mind virus and so even though
it takes a distressing amount of time
for these ideas to work their way in you
can go from the people that write the
Constitution end up writing in this mind
virus of um all men are created equal
when obviously at the time that they
write it they don't mean it literally
but it plants an idea in people's minds
and that idea ends up taking over and
this is where and I don't know that I've
thought through all of this well enough
to be like plant a flag and say this is
my my take on it which is actually one
of the things I want to talk to you
about is how difficult these ideas are
to work through um which is part of how
I think we end up here but so you have
this mind virus that they plant in
themselves it takes hold and over time
it it keeps you know when people say the
long Arc of History bends towards
Justice when you have ideas like that
and now it what what's weird though is
this becomes an oroborus for people that
have ever seen that image of the dragon
eating its own tail it's like the very
idea of the and and I'm I'm now
stretching beyond what I've ever said
out loud before so if you can help me
adjust course here by all means uh you
get by giving that sort of spark of
divinity and having that idea in
people's minds you then get to the point
of my live truth the way that I feel
matters I I am the Divine and so what I
perceive is therefore real and so it
becomes this weird moment and I have so
much love and empathy for people that
end up here because I really the thing
I've struggled with in my life is my
intellect is just limited enough that I
really struggle with like super nuanced
things I feel like over time I can get
somewhere useful but I have a lot of
empathy for people that get lost in some
of the Nuance so as you view yourself as
having that spark of divinity that what
I feel is so true that for others to not
recognize that is somewhat of a a
personal affront and if you're thinking
that in a society where for the most
part like your basic needs are going to
be
met you now get in a point where you
haven't had the reality smacking you in
the face that you were talking about
that forces you to confront I don't
think this is working and that gets us
what we have now which is very
well-intentioned people that are lovely
beautiful humans that have value in the
spark of divinity but their ideas are no
longer bending the long Arc of History
towards
Justice it's a very interesting thought
and I think one of the things that went
unsaid there but is fundamentally at the
core of it
is that Society only works and I say
this as an agnostic if there is a
religious religious super structure
imposed on top of it which says yes you
have the spark of divinity inside of you
but there's something greater than all
of us that that we are all connected
through um and once you take that away
and you put the human being on a
pedestal then yes my lived experience
becomes reality and the denial of My
reality becomes violence or an attack on
on my very identity that's where we are
where we are um so you're saying that we
need a super structure to so here's an
interesting idea tell me if this jives
with what you're saying the right level
of analysis is the individual that's
something Jordan Peterson said that
really struck me like as you start to
atomize things and think about where
should these decisions be made it will
ultimately come down to the individual I
think he's right about that certainly in
a in a western context where it's not a
collectivist vision uh but once you get
down to the atomized individual to avoid
sort of ideological chaos you have to
have some sort of super structure that
you exist within that super structure
could be um the institution the the
Democratic experiment that is the United
States um it could be religion but it
has to be something and if we don't have
a shared vision of um what that super
structure ought to be and I use that
word with moral
implications then we run into the
trouble that we're seeing now and then
you have a very polarized society in
which people feel like they're not even
living in the same country now do you
think each side of that debate is they
have their own Super structure and
that's what makes them a coherent
side never really thought about that so
you and I working through some stuff
here that I've never really thought
about out loud before so I may say
things that I later don't necessarily
agree with but if we're working through
it do they have their own Super
structure
well I mean the the conservative
religious right have a super structure
and to a certain
extent would we say that that the work
left has a super structure above it I
mean you know I think these these sort
of reaching for
institutionalized whatever and systemic
whatever it's a it's an attempt to have
a world view that is just as faith-based
as the belief in a in a Divine being if
you think about it because it's
something that exists in the absence of
evidence even if there is some evidence
for it uh the argument that the you know
the ibx kendi types make is the it's a
circular circular reasoning you know the
absence of racism is is only a
reflection of the fact that someone is
being racist but doesn't realize it
that's kind of how that works right um
so I don't know the problem is that I
think you need you need a super
structure that is in the words of a good
friend of mine who's a Cambridge
Professor James or we've just released
an interview with him which brilliant we
need something that's pre-political and
preol pre political and that is
essentially something that we all take
for Grant
you know
um we don't really seem to have that
anymore and that's why I'm so concerned
you know I'm neither on the right on the
left but when I see elements of the left
go down the path of sort of
saying you know our countries are
terrible it makes me wonder well if you
I don't know if they actually think that
but let's say let's assume that they do
if you thought
that this house was terrible or that
your life was terrible or that The
Valleys of your country were terrible
why would you defend them why would you
fight for them why would you teach those
values and those ways of being to your
children
right so if you get to a point where
people are no longer willing to
understand that well yes our society is
not perfect it is the best Society
available and it is therefore wor of
protecting and defending and growing as
a result well then you've kind of got
yourself to a position where you know I
don't see this extreme progressivism as
seeking to make America or Britain or
the West better I just see it as
attempting to pull things down because
they're not good enough right that is a
problem because you're destroying that
super
structure uh well I think the superst
structure's already kind of been
destroyed you're destroying you're
laying the foundations
of
um a civilization that is incapable of
Defending itself I don't mean physically
necessarily I think if the United States
was to be attacked there would be enough
people who'd go and fight the defender
right yeah but that's so that's a really
interesting moment and so uh I was
literally just taking notes on this idea
so I grew up in the 80s uh Arnold
Schwarzenegger movies were everything
America was great your hometown of
Russia was bad and it was awesome and it
was awesome because I had Clarity I knew
that we were the best I knew that you
were the enemy and that really gave me
an anchor and we had the same in the
Soviet Union by the way you were the
enemy we were the the great and we were
and every everybody was happy yeah so
there there as I think about what the
actual note that I took is too many
perspectives coming too fast and so to
your point about social media what ends
up happening is every time you try to
Anchor This Is My Idea somebody hits you
with no no no that idea doesn't make
sense and you're like oh damn they kind
of have a point but now I feel unored
again and so then you're like I just
need a team just tell me what team I'm
on and this is how you get into the
hyperpolarization because I need I need
there to be a group of thoughts so I
don't have to think through every issue
and contend with all the very
intelligent arguments coming at me from
both sides because there are really
smart people on both sides with really
compelling arguments and one thing I've
learned just as an immutable truth the
reason that you end up in a situation
where you have really intelligent people
coming at things from exactly opposite
ends is that there is truth in both
sides and so this is where then I'm like
okay the super structure I want for
everybody is first principles what works
what actually as we get closer to the
laws of physics and we are able to
accurately predict the outcome of our
Behavior and the behavor behavior of
others you know you're getting closer to
ground level truth and that's like that
would be my fantasy is that we can all
get our heads around that we can say
this is our stated goal what are the
behaviors the cultural inculcation that
we need to do in order to achieve that
so you laid them out what the West has
done the experiment that we've run the
Mind virus of the individual is the
right thing to focus on because that
leads to the seeking of Truth in
scientific Realms etc etc and I think a
whole host of other things that are
probably better not to completely
fractal on right now so going back to
this idea if you've got all of these
perspectives coming at you very quickly
you want to start bifurcating into teams
so that you you have an anchor you don't
have to think through all these
different ideas but the fascinating
thing is even as everything is being
eroded if America were to be attacked
now suddenly you're in that thing where
there is real hardship there is real
pain There's real suffering when
somebody comes and kicks your front door
and with a machine gun it's like whoo
now like this is really time to react
and moments like that I think would be
incredibly galvanizing but again that
comes back to you need that level of
pain and suffering that I really would
love to find a way to avoid but it's so
going back to the idea of you've got I
the the way I've always always
articulated this idea is there is a
god-shaped hole in everyone's heart M
now I'm not religious so I don't fill
that hole with God I fill that hole with
Biology so I if there were one thing I'm
trying to get across to the world that
is this you are having a biological
experience M your brain works in a
certain way once you understand your
brain is influenced by your gut and that
whatever 85% of the serotonin in your
body which controls a lot of your mood
is actually made and stored in your gut
like that's so startling to me and
thusly what you eat is going to
influence your mood so now it's like hey
this Divine vehicle that you have it's a
vehicle and it works in a certain kind
of way and if you take care of it it
will work well and if you don't it won't
and so that has left me with this
tremendous sense of awe and this desire
to go Inward and understand how I work
and so that fills that thing for me that
creates a super structure so that when I
am left with the atomization of I'm
individual person I start going okay
what are my moral what's my moral
compass my moral compass given what I
just said about biology the individual I
think it will make sense for people that
my moral compass is all about what
increases human thriving and decreases
human suffering right it's going to be
something very tactical tactile it's
going to come down to what what the
individual is going through and
so everybody is going to need that thing
for themselves
and I don't think they have that Clarity
in a world where so many ideas are
bombarding them so quickly and the world
that they are in is relatively affluent
and there's nobody with a machine gun
knocking on their door but any any
crisis like that collapses their I
ideology down to getting back to First
principles what works in this moment
what keeps me and my family safe right
here right now in this moment it cuts
out all the [ __ ] I don't know if
that made sense but that made perfect
sense except I I would argue it's not
true if you look at what happened during
Co covid was for a lot of people at
least initially an experience that
should have been that thing that you
talk about and actually I don't know if
it was the case here but in the UK for
the first couple of weeks it
legitimately felt
like wow we''ve all got
something that is affecting all of us
that is scary that is dangerous we don't
know how dangerous we don't know how
scary but what we got to do is work
together look after the vulnerable you
know pull in the same direction it was
exactly the same here it it was like
that for a few
weeks and then
I this is going to sound political but
it's not meant political it's just a
statement of fact and then BLM happen
happened mhm right and then all of the
hypocrisies of how we treat different
groups and all of that stuff suddenly
ruined all of that that's what I saw
right and this isn't any this is not
even an anti-m point it was just like
you can't have everyone locked in their
homes for weeks and then the moment
people want to protest about a
particular issue now going outside
without a mask and protesting next to
other people is a health intervention
but this proves my point okay because
what happened was the first few weeks we
thought that there was a guy with a
machine gun kicking down our door and
then we realized it's actually not as
bad as we thought but because we were
saying hey this is is as bad or worse
than you think it's going to be and so
you could get away with give me all the
control the authoritarian control which
we need to get into authoritarianism but
but just to finish this point so uh you
need to give me all the control cuz this
is really bad but then the reality of it
didn't end up being that and so the
virus didn't spread especially when you
were outside and so or didn't spread as
fast I should be very clear so it didn't
spread as fast when you were outside and
so all of the people who were like oh
but this is going to be crazy if if
you're right this is going to be a super
spreader event and then it wasn't a
super spreader event and so then it was
like is this as dangerous as we think
like I remember dude washing the grocery
bags that would come into my house with
sanitizer sanitizing everything only
buying things that I could that was
either prepackaged or I sanitize the
outside of I mean lest people forget how
big of a question mark this was and this
is not to take anything away Co killed a
lot of people but it wasn't like the
Spanish Flu of 1918 that killed whatever
50 million people
so this you have these moments
where you think a guy with a machine gun
is kicking down your door or that you're
being chased by a lion but in in the end
you're not and so it created this really
weird dissonance
[Music]
people were going into CS but then they
still weren't fored to figure out
whats and so my thing is once you start
so I I really this idea and and now I'm
speaking as an entrepreneur and so I'm
I'm just in my zone everything up till
now is is me thinking through an idea
and I'm I'm very grateful for people
giving me the space to process but now
speaking as as an entrepreneur I will
just tell you that to build a business
you must become a fish prediction engine
you have to get very good at if I do
this I will get this result because if I
don't I can't pay people's salary so
there there's just a really cut and dry
thing you're dealing with the market the
marketplace does not care about you like
you just either give something to people
that they want more than they want their
money uh and you can sell it at a profit
or you don't that's it it's cut and dry
and so in that you really start to go
okay it doesn't matter what I want to be
true like just all that [ __ ] just
it's gone what is true and you become
fish to figure that out and the people
that end up doing well are people that
get very accurate at going if I do this
thing I'm going to get this result if I
do that thing I'm going to get that
result and they they get into what I
call the physics of
progress I think no matter what you're
trying to accomplish in your life there
is a loop it does not change for anybody
that you have to run through and I
mapped this out and I was teaching it in
a business class and I actually first
started teaching it here to my own staff
and one of the guys on my team goes uh
oh that's the scientific
method I was like oh my God it is the
scientific method and I realized okay
when multiple disciplines come to the
same conclusion from totally different
angles the odds that that thing is
useful in generating a predictive engine
is pretty high and so when that
prediction engine can break down because
there isn't the level of threat that you
thought this is where all hell breaks
list
that makes sense that makes sense well
let's that makes perfect sense and let's
come back slightly further because you
talked about your own um how you fill
the god-shaped hle and you mentioned
that for you part of that is uh human
flourishing and avoiding human suffering
the problem
is those things are subjective and
they're also operating on a subjective
timeline uh there is there are things
that will cause human suffering now now
that will cause human flourishing 10
years from now all right the delayed
gratification point so how you define
those things is also subjective which is
why a super structure cannot with in
reside within you it has to be something
pre-political it has to be something
that other people not just agree with
but other people believe almost without
questioning that's what a super
structure is um and religion provided
that very very well for a period of time
but we we are in the in the west
certainly in in a somewhat
post-religious age I mean Maybe not
maybe that actually will change over
time but the problem I think we're
having is that you are right to say that
you have a lot of very smart and
well-intentioned people from different
sides not being able to agree and I
think the reason is you know Jonathan
height has obviously written about this
that people with different psychological
profiles and as a result political V
Visions um they value different things
and so if you are left leaning or sort
of liberal leaning uh compassion is
going to be much higher on your list of
priorities whereas someone who's more
pragmatic like you uh is going to say
well yes I have to you know you are a
member of my team and I have to give you
a telling off and say no you [ __ ] this
up right but we're going to work
together to make sure it doesn't happen
again so that you grow as a person and
you're more effective
well for some people that's unpleasant
and suffering but if you're interested
in growing a business you know that
sometimes you have to get things to work
properly and part of that means telling
people things they don't want to hear
right we talked about this before we
started um and I think that's probably a
lot of where the disagreement is because
we don't have an overarching super
structure by everybody then you end up
in a position where it's like well if
you want to pursue your version of human
flourishing and I want to pursue my
version of human flourishing they could
look completely differently based on
what we believe to be true about the
world now yes I agree with you that
you've taken a lot of time clearly and
thought very carefully about what it is
that works and doesn't work in the real
world most people haven't most people
haven't and and a lot of them operate on
the basis of what makes them feel good
because that's the original mechanism by
which human beings existed right you
feel bad about something you avoid it
you feel good about something you you
pursue
it the world's got more complicated and
so you have to have those Loops that you
talked about uh but a lot of people
don't operate through them and even if
they did you still probably find them
because people are different
psychologically they value different
things and they Define flourishing and
suffering in different ways which is why
I don't think that's
enough here's an idea I would love to
hear what you think about this so uh the
business world has taught me a lot about
human nature and so I maybe take a
slightly different approach to
everything that's happening right now so
in a business you absolutely need uh two
different types you need a dreamer
Visionary and you need an Executor mhm
and I've seen way too many times really
smart people Constantin really smart
people and one of them is a Visionary
and he thinks the executor is an idiot
and the executor is brilliant and he
thinks the Visionary is an idiot and
you're sitting there watching it going
wait how how have you guys gotten this
far without realizing it's the tension
between the two of you that actually
finds the right path M and so in
business it's often talked about as the
kite and the string so if you have a
kite that has no string it just flies
off into nothingness crashes into a tree
falls to the ground whatever MH if you
have a string without a kite obviously
just lays on the ground so you need the
two in Dynamic tension and if the kite
were angry at the string and thought the
string was useless and a fool and the
string thought the kite was you know a
good for nothing then it it it's just
Mayhem and that's what I feel like is
happening politically and dude not a
political person I never thought I would
ever have a conversation like this or I
would ever need to think through these
problems and then I started realizing oh
this is like the left and right debate
again my on my Tombstone I want it to
read you're having a biological
experience and what I want people to
understand is evolution has just molded
the life out of you and you are a
product of a lot of evolution and
evolution is 100% trying to make sure
that you have kids that survive long
enough to have kids okay when you've got
a lot of lions chasing you you need a
strong group so there is going to be
this nature is going to make sure that
there's cohesion in a group but what
makes for cohesion strong individuals
Okay cool so we're going to have a
collectivist versus individual tension
and because if you don't you get What's
called the freeloader problem so if
everybody is like no man Left Behind
like we've got to take care of everybody
from an evolutionary standpoint you just
created a game theoretic Gap and
somebody's going to go oh word nobody
left behind I'll be chilling here go get
me some food bring it back group says
you have to take care of me all as well
and so if you had that then every
Everybody becomes the freeloader and
then you die off so you have to have
this counterveiling Force that's like no
way like I I will take care of you but I
need to know that you're going to take
care of me too the next time and so now
you've got the tension between the two
you've got somebody who's like saying
hey you're accountable for everything
your life is your choice nobody's coming
to save you you better get out there and
hunt then you've got somebody else
that's like yo you can't be like that
you have more than you can eat come on
share with the group and so when you get
the dynamic tension between those two
you have a functioning Society but when
you have each side going you're an idiot
you don't belong here my way is the only
way it devolves into madness yes and so
I will Point people back to being an
entrepreneur which I did not plan to
quote on this so much raay alio guy I
mentioned earlier builds the largest
hedge fund in the
world billions and billions millions of
dollars this guy's crazy his success is
ridiculous and it's all on the back of
this horrendous failure and so he's
probably mid-30s he's the wonderkind
like he's just the guy and he's killing
it and he lays out this whole strategy
and he tells the world like this is
what's going to happen he puts all in on
it chip start going his way he looks
like a genius and then it stalls and it
doesn't go his way and he loses
everything man he goes from being ultra
wealthy to having having to borrow money
to pay rent and put groceries on his
kids table I mean just the most
catastrophic fall you can imagine and so
he's like okay I'm going to start all
over again and I'm going to reboot
everything but I'm going to have one
guiding force and that is the
recognition of the fallibility of my
thinking and I am no longer going to see
myself as super smart I'm going to see
myself as somebody who absolutely must
cultivate in others the willingness to
tell me when I'm wrong and why I'm wrong
and so this got me obsessed with free
speech so I think that we are
all no matter how smart you are
literally no matter how smart you're
going to be blind to something 100% And
if you don't live in a world where
people can tell you are encouraged that
you invite them to tell you where you're
wrong you will implode at some point do
you know what I do with my guys at
trigonometry
I'm always starting arguments I'm always
like so what do you think about this no
but I can see you don't quite agree with
me and and I do this all the time and
this is the beauty of what you know we
have me Francis and our producer Anton
like the core team and then a bunch of
other people and that's what I've always
tried to do because while it's very
tempting to think I'm a very smart
person I also recognize the different
perspectives and people you know you
said the biological experience I mean
the biological experience can drive you
into all sorts of CU thex both
intellectually and emotionally right um
so that is I couldn't agree with the
more man it's so important that we are
able
to challenge ourselves and be challenged
by others um to me I I don't actually
know a lot about leadership because it's
a new thing to me having our team and
but it's something I've thought often
about which is I think uh you know
that's such a a difficult balance to
strike between being a strong confident
assertive leader who who who has vision
and takes the team forward but also
someone who can U not only just hear
feedback but actually encourage it so
that it's given in the first place
that's that's kind of what I've always
tried to work on since you know I
remember when we we were about to hire
our first staff member I was dreading it
I because I knew I wasn't prepared but
there's only one way to prepare which is
to do it right um so yeah and free
speech is is to broaden it out as you
have I think that's right um and that is
why you know the scientific progress we
talked about earlier is a product of
that because it's it's the ability to
challenge ideas how much would you give
up for free speech how far would you let
people go well it depends what you mean
because uh I for example you know in
certain countries in Europe it is
illegal to deny the Holocaust right
um in Constantin land in constant is
that is that okay denying the Holocaust
yeah it is to me yeah and you know I
have family who who who've died in in
that War and who were
Jewish um I don't personally want
to that but but we we've got ourselves
into a bit of a confusion as Society
because people confuse uh you know you
won't have a holocaust Deni on your
podcast that means you don't believe in
free speech that's different
conversation
AG but I do think people should be
allowed look this isn't a popular view
particularly uh as someone who has
experienced racism I don't think it
should be illegal to be racist right to
say racist things should be legal to
discriminate against people because of
their race and employment and in
education or wherever but people should
be allowed to have and express pretty
much any opinion in my view I recognize
that's not how other people think um do
you think that's a like if if the scales
had to tip one way or the other do we
lean more towards people believing in
free speech now in the west or away from
it well I I think the scales is the
wrong metaphor because I think there are
some people who very strongly feel free
speech is important and there are also
some people who feel very strongly that
feelings and you know protecting people
from hearing things they don't like is
very important so I don't know what the
balance of that is because I think those
camps are almost separate they're not
even on the same scale to some extent
right um I think if you were to poll the
ordinary person it depends country by
country I mean in the UK uh we have laws
against uh we have law it's illegal in
the UK to be grossly offensive that
freaks me out it freaks me out when did
that happen uh I believe it was brought
in under the Blair government I don't
quote me on this I could be wrong but
that's fairly recent actually yeah yeah
so between 97 and 2010 it would have
come AC come in at that point maybe even
before but it was never really robustly
enforced if it had been in place so
don't quote me on it but it it's it's a
relatively new occurrence it's not from
the 1800s I I don't believe so and if it
is I don't recall you know when I was
growing up in the UK I don't remember
hearing about people being you know
prosecuted or arrested or even having
the police visit them for things that
they said and and now it's it
happens and it freaks me out you're
right and it should it should freak us
out yeah where do you think that where
where does the denial of free speech
go well you charted it perfectly
yourself if we cannot challenge bad
ideas bad ideas Thrive and when bad
ideas Thrive that disconnect between
reality and ideas gets wider and
wider and then youve you and I have both
I think explained where that leads leads
to to you know the the the clash with
reality I mean you can believe that
gravity is not real as long as you want
but when you jump out of a window you're
going to find out talk to me about
Russia CU I think there's another
element to this where um I watched the
movie uh Chernobyl and it really freaked
me out like how being watched all the
time knowing that there are certain
things that you can say and can't say
like what it does to the psyche and how
um it can lead to a nuclear disaster cuz
you're not able to speak up you're not
able to just plain and say hey [ __ ]
like I can't do that cuz it's is going
to [ __ ] melt down
um you were born in Russia what what
does it do like to the vibe I'm not sure
what the right word is to use but like
what does it do to the society when
people aren't able to just be open and
honest cuz there's really like fear of
punishment well a a lot of people it's
obviously not comparable but a lot of
people know what that feels like now
because a lot of people worry about
expressing their actual opinions in
public and it was funny because I was
just in New York we we've just done a
couple of weeks of a trip around the US
uh and I got invited to this thing
that's wrong by a friend of mind called
thought criminals and it's a small group
of people who uh uh who get together and
talk about things that they believe that
they can't talk about in public or in
their work and whatever and they asked
us Francis and I to speak a little bit
and you know I said to them I've been in
this room before because even in the
1980s I remember as a little kid running
around and you know my grandfather's
kitchen and there would be you know
physicists and biologists and musicians
and artists sitting around in a small
kitchen talking about the very things
that they could not discuss elsewhere
that's a lot of trust man yeah and it
didn't always work out so in my
grandfather's case in one of gatherings
of this kind he criticized Soviet
invasion of
Afghanistan and within very short order
he was fired from his job his wife was
fired from her job and both their
children that's my father and my aunt
were kicked out of University he had the
KGB Searcher house uh they found a uh
radio receiver that he used to listen to
uh BBC World Service and Voice of
America and you couldn't you you not
allow to this was terrible crime uh and
So eventually that's actually in part
why I ended up in England because he
couldn't remain in the Soviet Union and
as it was sort of tapering out at the
end he left and went to the UK and then
when my parents had a bit of money they
sent me to boarding school to England to
be there but my point is it creates and
to this day we don't actually know what
people in Russia think about the war for
example we don't um because what polling
says isn't necessarily reflective
because Russians learn and other peoples
in the Soviet learn over a long period
of time that you have a public reality
you have a work reality and then you
have the kitchen table reality and some
of these can be in complete
contradiction to each
other um and it creates a culture of
fear in which as you say people are
afraid to speak up people are afraid to
take initiative that's the worst thing
imagine a business where people don't
take initiative because they're afraid
how if you you have a bunch of people
working for you how bad would the
product that you produce be if none of
them ever felt able to say actually why
don't we do it like this let's try that
you see what I'm saying if everybody was
constantly worried about protecting
their job and therefore didn't innovate
didn't do anything different didn't try
things didn't challenge authority didn't
challenge the people above them and so
on like that it's a very stifling
atmosphere and it's extraordinary to me
how successful the Soviet Union was in
competing with the world superpower in
spite of that system it show shows you
the incredible talents and intellect of
the people of the former Soviet Union
who really uh you know punched above
their way in my opinion given the
terrible structures that they were
operating
in yes this is the thing that scares me
and this is why I think what we're
calling this this will be interesting
I'll try to dissect my own argument here
this is the thing that I find terrifying
is that even in a country like that that
has what I would call very bad ideas
they are able to be successful to a
certain point and so somebody that's
going to attack me if I were going to
steal man their argument I would say
look at China look at what they've done
look at Russia look at what they did I
mean they for a long time they were the
other superpower and yes they've had
sort of a blip and for a while they
struggled but it's like you know they're
kind of coming back like depending on
how you look at what Putin is doing he's
God this is not me saying this I want to
be very clear but like reunifying you
know the the country or however it's
thought of and so as somebody who has
read the gulg archipelago who's read um
ma the unknown story who's read the red
famine
Jesus uh it really is it's really
distressing depending on what it is that
you value because this stuff will go on
for a long time like a lot of people
died in the red famine but the the
country didn't go away like they still
like they managed to like you know
figure some things out and keep going
and even when the Soviet Union fell it's
not like Russia fell into the sea like
they you know they build back and
countries fragment but they start doing
their own thing and so it really comes
down to what vibe do you get when you
think about and I'll just make this
about work as you were talking I was
like oh man that's actually a really
good analogy the way that I view what
happens when you lose free speech is
what most people experience every day at
work mhm where oh think about how much
like you think your boss is an idiot but
you're like I can't say anything because
if I do then I'm going to get fired or
whatever that's what it would be like
and so I don't know why people are
racing towards it when they're busy
hating their job and they think you know
they work for a [ __ ] but they can't say
anything and they complain about it they
want out and they want to do their own
thing but yet there's like this cultural
movement that will yield the same result
so in at impact Theory dude you can't
imagine how many times to my own team
I've given the speech nobody here is
above criticism least of all me I am not
smart enough to take us where we want to
go I need people to tell me when I'm
going aai I need people like you are
literally being hired for two things are
you willing and able to make decisions
and stand by them and can you speak to
power because if you can't speak to
power and you're not willing to tell me
what you really think we're going to
crash and burn have you heard about um
South Korean Airlines and how they used
to have the worst safety record in in
the entire industry okay this is crazy
th this to me is what happens when Free
Speech goes away so they have a cultural
thing there where you respect your
elders so if the captain outranks you
and you're in the plane uh and you're
the co-pilot and something's going wrong
you can make suggestions but you can't
like Snap them out of it and so they
have these black box recordings do this
Eerie they did this whole uh documentary
of blackbox
reenactments uh of these famous plane
crashes and there were a couple in there
from South Korea and it goes like this
uh excuse me pilot um do you think we're
getting a little close to that mountain
no no no everything's fine uh excuse me
sir could it be possible that if we were
to pull up that we'd be in a better
situation I told you to maintain your
course they are careening towards a
[ __ ] mountain man they eventually
crash into that mountain and at no point
does a co-pilot go hey [ __ ]
we're going to run into the mountain and
we need to pull up what the [ __ ] are you
doing M and that to me is when you lack
Free Speech you get Chernobyl watch it
if you haven't you get South Korean
Airlines they finally had to do this
whole like cockpit protocol where in the
cockpit you could absolutely it did not
matter hch key was gone so whatever like
before you clock in whatever deference
you're showing somebody the second you
clock in that goes away you've got to
say exactly what you think is true
you've got to be assertive you've got to
be willing to call it and I was just
like wow like there are real
consequences when people aren't for
whatever reason compelled to say what
they think is true and the most
beautiful illustration of that is the
movie Crimson Tide have you ever seen it
I have but a long time ago Denzel
Washington and Jean Hackman I think yes
and that's the whole plot of the movie
It's the captain of the boat and his EXO
and there's a decision to be made and
the EXO is doing everything he can to
prevent bad decision from being made by
the captain who's chosen a particular
path to pursue and the entire movie is
about that
fact and at at the end the way that that
whole thing is shown as being
the the true value of not just Free
Speech but honor in that whole system is
uh what happens is they end up not
launching nuclear weapons at my
boys as it was a cold war movie and it
turns out to be the right
decision however there is a mutiny
aboard a nuclear submarine which is
pretty big [ __ ] deal right so there
is some kind of investigation and the
captain is questioned about what
happened but his EXO is not in this
courtroom the military Court Marshal
whatever it is and they bring in Denzel
Washington who's the EXO and they say
and you know we've made a decision
something like this and he goes what
with without my
testimony and they say you know Captain
Ramsey who is the captain of the boat
I've known him for 30 years you know we
don't we don't need
to we don't need to mistrust him right
and the point is that at the end of that
whole process the captain who fought so
hard to have his decision implemented
knows he [ __ ] up and he's willing to
admit it that's the whole point of the
movie right and he ends by I think the
final shot of the thing is since then
they've changed the protocol on the
submarines so that you can't you need I
think you know they've changed the whole
thing basically right so you no longer
have that conflict which is exactly what
you're talking about right a situation
someone speaks up that speech is
eventually heard people cling more to
what's
important over what is in their own
personal interest right because there's
a bigger thing at stake uh and lessons
are learned
that's that's like the whole thing in in
a movie that's why free speech is
important because it prevents you from
making mistakes in the future you've
said that every generation has to fight
for free speech again why what what is
the so I'm this is my bias there's some
biological thing that makes people want
to shut down free speech for whatever
reason and then there's some biological
reason why people want it on the other
side now I think we've made a pretty com
we've laid out why it can be wildly
problematic to not have Free Speech but
what's the pull on the other side why
why does every generation have to fight
this over and
over well free speech is kind of
unpleasant isn't
it isn't it it can be man so no it is it
is I mean when we think in what way
because people say things that make you
go oh yeah that was kind of stupid to me
uh or they just say things that you
don't like or they express opinions you
don't agree with right for example I
feel very strongly about what's
happening in Ukraine y right so for me
hearing people saying horrible [ __ ]
about ukrainians who are fighting for
their lives and calling them Nazis and
lying about that whole situation it
upsets me or it could do if I let it and
at some points I let it it's a
fact what if I could just press a button
and then none of these people ever say
any of that again wouldn't my life be so
much more improved right definitely not
but that could be cuz I'm already so far
down the path yeah so
you understand that my life would not be
improved but a lot of people don't
understand that because it's reaction
stimulus reaction that's all it is oh I
feel bad okay shut it down that's how a
lot of people feel about life in general
because most people as you well know
don't go through life not feeling in
control and so when a thing happens that
you don't want to
experience that's what happens that's
what it's it's quite a natural instinct
and so in many ways I would argue free
speech is very unnatural it's a very
unnatural thing and that's why it has to
be fought for repeatedly because people
it's always tempting to go to shut it
down I don't like to I don't want to
hear this you know and also you know if
you're ego is invested this is the
hardest thing for people who do what you
do and do what I do you know whether you
run a small YouTube channel or a massive
business everyone has an element of ego
that takes ages to get rid of you know
to process and to to and so
it's a it's a challenge to Your Ego to
have people challenge the things that
you uh saying or believing or thinking
and it's only when you transcend that
and you go this is about something
bigger than me this is what you said
about the speech you give your team
right you said if we're going to get to
where we want to
goh then you have to be able to
challenge me but if all we're trying to
do is get to where I want to go
maybe I don't need to hear your crappy
opinion about how I'm doing anything or
maybe I just need you to suck up to me
so that we carry on doing stuff that
makes me feel
good an owner will never do
that a successful owner will never do
that because they know that at the end
of the day the rubber me road if you get
a company I guess that's like finally
hit escape velocity and it's just making
enough money then you can start being
stupid but this is why the average
company now stays in the S&P 500 I think
for 12 years used to be 61 if you made
it to the S&P 500 baby gravy train 61
years now 12 bananas so anyway there's
just a death spiral that happens when
you uh want people to suck up it's
really interesting so I came to being a
CEO through a very weird way I started
as a copywriter worked my way to partner
in one company and then tried to quit
that company and so they made me an
equal partner in the next company long
story my audience has heard me tell the
story a thousand times uh and so that I
was like I clawed my way to the top in
in a
very uh
emotionally difficult environment that
was the intellectual equivalent of
Thunderdome like we actually used to say
that this is not me like making it up it
was like one man or two men enter one
man leaves like we used to talk about
that all the time and so it it really
was meant in some ways to be that
difficult mhm uh and so as I looked at
it and was like M how much of this works
how much of it doesn't there were some
ideas that were brilliant like challenge
me uh other ideas that were less likely
to make it with me when I was on my own
uh and like what like I realize very
quickly that I need to give my power
away so my job in getting to the CEO
position is not to flex and show
everybody how powerful I am my job at
getting to CEO was to empower everybody
else so that it could scale and that is
very difficult to do to claw your way to
that role and then be like hey actually
for me to get where I want to go I have
to in some ways in some ways it it
actually be really interesting it would
take us hours to really explain what
running a business is but in many ways
you're you're sub um you're submitting
yourself to your employees and you're
saying uh one we I actually don't refer
to my employees as my employees just
psychologically I don't it's not the
right move so we refer to each other as
teammates yeah that's I call my my I
tell the psychological thing that does I
think is very important we also give
Equity to our team so it's like hey you
actually really own a piece of this
company so now it's like we're pulling
for the same thing we're teammates
you're not my family I'm holding you to
a standard I absolutely expect you to
perform well uh I consider myself to
need to be um as good as a human could
be at my position MH so I know what my
position is I'm not I am not interested
in being micromanager but I have to like
hey how are things going for you I want
to make sure that you have the way that
I refer to myself is I'm the soil you
guys are the things that are going to
grow and so my job is to create the soil
here that freedom of speech challenge
authority all of that stuff is
incredibly important to create that kind
of um Vibe so that you can ultimately
get the things you want to go but but as
that one to create that is very
difficult because I think and this is
the next thing I want to talk
about that there is part of the reason I
think that people have to fight for free
speech every generation is that there is
innate in humans partly because of ego
partly because of fear partly because of
insecurity partly because it's awesome
is a drive for totalitarian style
control yeah and I've often thought it's
really good that I'm not smart enough to
lead this company in a dictatorial
fashion because if I were right like say
85% of the time I could probably get
away with it but the reality is that I'm
not and so I never worked with Steve
Jobs so maybe I'm wrong and this is just
mythology but I have a feeling he was
just smart enough that he could just
like slap people around be absolutely
horrible tell them what to do and it
still worked they built an amazing
company and so very few people were like
he's a lot of fun to work for
so I can't do that I can't deploy that
methodology because if I'm addict to you
I'm going to be wrong way too frequently
and I'm just going to Hemorrhage human
capital so anyway I think that's a big
part of the the pool pull is that uh
being a dictator feels awesome tell does
it though does it see I people say that
but look I I've never been inside
another human being skin obviously but
it's insecurity provoking is that where
you're going no I why it just doesn't
feel good why why not because you're
making other people feel bad do you
think they see that yes cuz some of them
like when I heard stories about uh
Saddam Hussein's son yeah yikes yeah so
I suppose there are some Psychopaths and
they probably accumulated the top of
Fortune 500 companies um it's weird to
me I've never I've never been because uh
I fear in myself the the instinct to
authoritarianism but when I actually
started managing our team I quickly
realized that I actually didn't need to
fear that at all because I'm actually
the opposite I have to force myself to
say things that might not be pleasant
for them but that need to be it's
something I have to overcome all the
time I I do not enjoy making other
people feel bad one bit and dict say
that's the only part of being a dictator
though it's not because when you run a
company I like knowing I'm the one
person that can't be fired they can all
quit and I think I think people working
at a company underestimate how brutal
that is but they can't fire
me and that feels nice well yeah but
does that make you a dictator though
there's an element of that I have the
the quote unquote totalitarian control
over my company people are going to do
what I say and It ultimately it forces
you into a George Washington position
where it's like I could keep this power
but I actually am going to give it away
and in the way that he gave it away
because he felt it was the right thing
for the country and it's probably good
that he was as old as he was because he
was just like Jesus Christ this is a
pain in the ass and I would really like
to retire to my farm now uh there there
is something about that that feeling of
like as long as a company is making
money and I can't be fired this is why I
don't take money I don't take outside
money because then you can be fired the
board can fire you and I would hate that
anyway I get your point it's it's a
mixed bag and I suppose the fact is that
as we talked about people have different
psychological profiles there are some
people who are Psychopathic M right um
we're talking about authoritarianism
though why we always have to fight every
generation for free speech
because it's not
natural that's why it's it's not a
natural state of of being I think I
don't think that in in the ancestral
environment in a tribe of 150 people
there was a huge amount of free speech
do you know what I mean um so I think
it's a quite artificial idea in some
ways uh that's why it hasn't been around
for very long in historical terms I mean
the idea that freedom of expression
matters is sort of a few hundred years
old at best actually and never really
been properly implemented anyway even in
those times now look the pro the reason
we keep banging on about Free Speech we
should acknowledge this as well is the
technological environment is very
different uh a word said in private 200
years ago really probably didn't have a
huge amount of impact on how people
thought and felt and whatever you say
something on Twitter now it could be
seen by hundreds of millions of people
and have far-reaching implications so
even though
language hasn't changed that much the
impact of language has and I can see why
you know I don't believe there's ever
going to be a free internet
again you know there was a there was a
there was a gold rush moment in of the
internet do you remember it when you say
free you mean uncensored yeah yeah
that's not going to happen again it's
just the technology is too
powerful you nobody would allow that
what do you think about what Elon is
doing with
Twitter What specifically
yeah that's interesting so the way that
I see it is him taking over this thing
making it open source so people or not
open source but um transparent so
everybody can see what the algorithm is
and um there's no mystery about who's
getting blocked or
why and that part of it I like that part
of it I like but I think um I've NE I
never met Elon actually did Bill M show
with him today but we didn't get a
chance to talk so I don't know what he's
like I've never met him and I'm just
saying this is as an outside Observer
and I actually think he's a very
important figure in the culture and what
he's attempting to do in terms of the
survival of humanity actually really
important I disagree with him about
certain
things but you have to be honest and
recognize that Twitter is a benevolent
dictatorship which is much better than
the the oligarchy we had before it is
better but I see that there is you know
any dictatorship is benevolent as long
as it's benevolent right um so you know
for
example Twitter I think is in a bit of a
standoff with substack at the moment uh
which for someone who writes on substack
I find it a little bit frustrating
what's the standoff uh the standoff is
that substack came up with a thing
called substack notes which I think the
people at Twitter believe is an attempt
to compete with Twitter H which I don't
think it is given that substack I think
have you know like 35 million
subscriptions versus whatever Twitter
has you know they're not comparable but
um there's been some things that
happened on that front that make me you
know make me think that you know I
really wish this dictatorship remained
benevolent for as long as possible is he
throttling substack people or something
like if you're trying to link out to it
or I don't have access to the actual
data to be able to say accurately there
was a period of time was quite short
when if you posted a substack link on
Twitter it would actually if you clicked
it it would be it would take you to a
page saying this link is
unsafe interesting and if you tweeted a
link to to substack you couldn't like or
retweet it you could only quote tweet it
so it was direct suppression of this
right this happened for a very short
period of time uh and then we are in the
position where we are now where some
people say suppression is going on
quietly and some people say it's not you
know H interesting well if he makes a
code available people real fast point
out whether that's really happening or
not yeah that's interesting okay so free
internet was a moment going away um it
becomes a very interesting question
getting back to do we want freedom of
speech how far in uh kissing land we're
going to go what we're going so grateful
I'm not Elon I cannot tell you just the
pressure or what the that decision that
specific one decision is like where's
that line nobody knows nobody knows
because once you go from anyone's
allowed to express an opinion which I
genuinely believe like you and I sitting
here without the cameras on if you want
to be racist I may not stick around but
I believe you have a right to say that
right what about when that is recorded
on camera and it goes out to millions of
people what if I say as David Ike this
conspiracy guy in the UK said at the
beginning of the pandemic that covid is
caused by 5G and then the next day
people go out and burn down 5G masks
right you know that I was abhor I found
the decision to that's probably not even
a word I found the decision to ban Trump
from Twitter abhorrent
yeah but I can also if I'm being
intellectually honest I opposed it
completely and I said it at the time I
can find it in my mind a situation in
which a leader of a democratic
country in my opinion should be banned
from the Public Square really yeah give
me an
example well it's obvious if they're
inciting large scale Mass violence for
example they're saying you know what we
need to do is go out and shoot these
people right now I don't think Putin
tweets but would you boot him if he did
because there is a guy oh God I follow
him I forget his name on the Russian
side cuz I was like oh my God like he's
tweeting what he really thinks about the
West crazy yes he drinks a lot and I was
like whoa like this guy's just not
pulling any punches like these idiots
and all this I was like wow like okay
this is why I'm saying I'm grateful not
to be in the position where I have to
make these decisions because I think at
the end of the day because there's no
right answer there's no right answer now
we're all fighting over where that line
is and my argument is that line has been
pushed way in against free speech I
think that's elon's point and that's why
he's taken over Twitter and that's why
he's rolling that line back but inevit
there will always be a point where you
go okay that that's far enough I think
yeah because the technology is too
powerful now the impact of words is so C
is not but can be so catastrophic but
then again I can see counter arguments
to my own argument I mean think about
you know what about the Civil War in
America a bunch of people saying you
know we must end slavery and if people
want to fight us over that we got to go
out and fight what if that happened
today what if people went out and said
you know we got to fight whatever and
that means we need to pick up our
weapons and go to the
street do you interfere with that as the
owner of
Twitter man so can I can I throw some
really bad ideas that I man I'm thinking
through this I've not had to to
articulate this stuff to myself or to
anybody else but so here's where I come
down in this
um there are no solution only tradeoffs
so says Thomas
soul I think that is so important for
people to understand that what whatever
solution people think they have there is
it is always going to create some kind
of problem right and so there there
isn't Utopia there isn't perfection so
knowing that I would say that there
really do have to be some things that
you think are worth dying for remember
I'm I am thinking through this right now
so I would die for my wife I hope it
never comes to that I am inspired by
people that would die for their country
or whatever I I have to i' have to
really think about like I am very glad
that like I am not at a conscript age at
this point that doesn't break my heart
mhm uh I
certainly love
America I I will actively thank people
that fought for America I will thank
them for their service I have a
tremendous sense of um gratitude for
people that have died for this country
and died for its ideals like it just
whoo like that really hits me at a deep
emotional level and I know it's become
like uncool at this point like I
remember somebody told me they put an
American flag up in front of their house
I was like oh someone's going to rip
that down and they did and when I said I
was like [ __ ] that's really
heartbreaking anyway so you need to have
things you would die for and that means
to me this is me that there there are
some ideas is that you do your best to
predict the outcome of having those
implemented and you say that idea is so
strong for the value system that I hold
that I'd be willing to die for
it I grew up in the milia of the West
and America and our um Constitution and
the First Amendment and so for me like
free speech it's one of those things man
where it's like God I really hope that
it doesn't come to me having to die for
it and I really hope that it isn't me
that the mob turns on like trust me I'm
I'm insecure about that and I don't want
to come across with like Bluster of who
the [ __ ] cares I really care like I see
how oh yeah yeah yeah why do you care
okay so sorry I hope you don't mind me I
love it I think in fractals I try to to
stop myself from doing it but you're
introducing a fractal that I love so
here's why I
care I have
worked face to face with the reality
that the number one predictor of your
future success is your ZIP code that has
become an animating factor in my life
because people that I loved were
devoured by the bad ideas that were
passed on to them by their zip code and
I I I've looked closely enough at the
problem that I realize it it is ideas
and if you look at um Jeffrey Canada and
what he's done with his charter schools
and stuff where he takes the same kids
in the same school literally the same
building uh doesn't choose them based on
Merit it's completely randomized based
on the same kids that go to that school
and and they end up having like five
times the graduation rates and better
scores it's [ __ ] crazy so I'm very
confident that this is an ideas's
problem because I believe that this is
an ideas's problem I have tried to come
up with a solution my solution is the
company impact Theory the reason it's
called impact theory is because my
theory on how to impact people at scale
is by getting across a growth mindset
which I really believe is all you
need at scale through ideas and
entertainment this show is is my way of
impacting the 2% and then the video game
I'm making is my way of impacting the
98% and buried in this video game are
just growth mindset ideas I never I'm
not trying to make vegetables taste good
I think we make a fun game but it
happens like if a mentor gives you re
advice in our game it'll be real advice
so it's like okay that's what I'm trying
to build and I worry that I will taint
my own brand because we just live in a
divisive moment and so I have often
thought do I do more good by receding
into the background and nobody knows who
the hell I am nobody has to think about
what I like and believe and all that and
they can just interact with my
characters or do I step out front now
the realities of my business because it
is so hard and so expensive to build
that side of the business that I I have
to do this side of the business which
makes us just a metric ton of money so
uh we have that whole side and so the
second part of this the reason that I'm
In conflict is that I feel a moral
obligation to two things not be a coward
which I started to feel like a coward at
the beginning of the pandemic and I
realized I believe things and I'm not
saying out loud so I'm effectively in
the Soviet Union and then two um I
really need to do everything I can to
help people that the ideas would benefit
and so I had ideas that I thought would
be useful to people I had access to
people that had even better ideas than
I'll ever have that could help people
and by not reaching out to those people
and asking those questions it made me
feel like a coward so I was like okay I
have to start speaking on this and
that's why that makes sense that makes
sense but I suppose the reason I asked
is I was just wondering why someone in
your position where you have Fu money
and a huge audience and a network of
people that I imagine most of would
stick by you if you expressed your very
reasonable opinions
uh why you would be concerned about
doing any of
that uh because the reality is that I am
not I I am very aware that I would not
do well pandering to an audience and so
if I say something that lights the world
on fire I'm still going to live in a
world of nuance and I that will be very
rough I would at that point you have to
pick the side that doesn't hate you if
you want to keep making a lot of money
and really yeah yeah you don't agree
with that I don't know I don't know I
mean I deliberately piss parts of my
audience off all the time because I
don't I don't a lot of people come come
to our show because we debate
controversial ideas or discuss
controversial ideas we get people from
extremes coming in and I'm quite clear
about where the demarcation lines are
for me because I don't want to end up in
a position where it's like I think I'm
you know I've got a YouTube channel with
Francis that's got you know 10 million
subscribers and it actually only has
like a 100,000 loyal ones you know I'd
rather know now do you see what I mean
yep so um from but I also happen to
believe that there are millions and
millions and millions of people out
there who like and would enjoy and truly
get what we do in a way that means that
they would continue to support us even
if we said some things that a lot of
people out that didn't like but if they
were coming from the right place but
again is that a true belief or is that
just a a is that wishful thinking I
don't know you are in a much better
position to tell me well it's
interesting so I don't know if I'm in a
better position to tell you on that cuz
I haven't run this experiment but I have
had these conversations with my team who
are so to your point I there I every
word that I say on this show I believe
but I am far more aggressive off camera
than I am on camera I'm far more flipp
and lean towards making something funny
or whatever and so my team loves that
and they have been desperate like to
record that side of me where it's just
like you know completely Unleashed and
like we're having a what I thought was a
[ __ ] hilarious conversation yesterday
about raising AI children which I
actually think is going to be real yeah
uh and my team was um very much like
yeah this would be the kind kind of
stuff like we want to hear you go ham
like this uh on camera and I'm like so
take take so we my wife and I do
relationship content and off camera when
I say so I used to be a standup comic I
don't know if you have if you've ever
heard that side of me so I know you did
as well until very recently I guess
you've sort of pressed pause on that
probably two or three years ago now so
feels like so you were like a for real
stand-up comic I was a wannabe stand-up
comic in my teens and early 20s and
I would my whole stick was I would talk
about the most outlandish [ __ ] the stuff
you're like I can't what the [ __ ] nobody
talks about that and so that that's like
I have that natural part of my
personality but I'm trying to be the
next Walt Disney I'm not trying to be
the next uh Tony Robbins or the next uh
Joe Rogan I'm trying to be the next Walt
Disney and I was like going to the
relationship content people always want
to ask us about sex now in my real life
I am not I'll make your eyelids curl
back like I have no problem talking
about it doesn't phase me at all but I
can't escape this question do people
want footage of Walt Disney talking
about a sex life and I'm like I don't
know that I want that and so my my love
man and I I really love it and it's
silly and childish but you'll notice I
have a cartoon character on my shirt and
this is a character I thought of and
there's nothing that gets me more
excited then like I've written comic
books and when somebody writes in and is
like dude that comic like it I loved it
so much it really like impacted me you
know this idea was so cool and so
entertaining that I I almost wish it
didn't that impacts me more than the
person who's like oh my God that uh
episode you did or um you know if I do
solo content they're like oh man I'm
using that idea and I've taught it to my
kids and that stuff is Meaningful to me
but my just first love and passion is
story
and so I am very conflicted about like
how ham to go on thinking through all of
these ideas live on camera but I find
myself just inching and inching and
inching that way so anyway to to the
initial point the initial question about
um does this
become problematic in any way to deal
with these topics or bring this to the
Forefront I don't know maybe it does
given what I'm trying to accomplish it
is a little bit sticky you can reboot
your life your health even your career
anything you want all you need is
discipline I can teach you the tactics
that I learned while growing a billion
dooll business that will allow you to
see your goals through whether you want
better health stronger relationships a
more successful career any of that is
possible with the mindset and business
programs in Impact Theory University
join the thousands of students who have
already accomplished amazing things tap
now for a free pre-trial and get started
today that's very interesting to me it's
an interesting conversation which I
think a lot of people who are making
things in the online space who are by
virtue of what they do in the public eye
to some extent uh have to think about um
it's interesting you mentioned about the
cartoon character because it sounds like
to me the reason that Praise of that
lands with you in a different way is
that it's the most quintessentially
authentic expression of your true being
it's interesting not quite true
so the most authentic expression of my
true being will come out in multiple
ways so the thing that I love being on
stage talking about mindset mindset and
business like if you get me going on
either of those dude because this is
where I'm like I almost feel like I
can't talk fast enough because I know
these ideas will change anybody's life
they are Timeless ideas I'm just like
this is so cheesy but I'm just the
vessel right now that happens to know
how to package these ideas in a way that
people find useful but dude I took
myself from
scringy to selling a company for a
billion dollars that I built with my
partners from absolute [ __ ] scratch
we did not raise money and so I'm like
okay the only reason I was able to do
this is because of a set of ideas I can
teach this to you I've now built three
companies in a row in three totally
Divergent areas all of them have been
multi-million dollar companies one of
them was a billion dollar company so
it's like oh my God like take notes get
a pen out so I love doing that but the
act of being on stage is not as
emotionally captivating as losing myself
inside of a story interesting and so
whatever weird Twist of brain fate I I
am a hyper responder to stories movies
TV shows cartoons video games hyper
responder and so I would have been like
in days of old I would not have been a
good warrior I'm I don't have the
physicality for that
um I would have been the Storyteller for
sure I would have been the one around
the campfire that built the mythology
and just really one understood the Deep
psychological impact of story and just I
get the chills from hearing stories and
telling stories and and so there's
there's a secondary layer that I don't
fully even understand in myself that
makes me love the story side that makes
sense
okay so um I want to know I want to get
back to the central idea of if you were
in fact this is the right way to ask it
you have a child you have a son you want
him to grow into a good World your
Oxford speech was really uh Reaching
Across to people that believe in
ideology that you think will lead them
somewhere that isn't helpful to them or
to society so while I understand you
don't want to be Elon Musk and you don't
want to be making some of these
decisions give me the broad Strokes of
what you think makes for a good Society
well this is the point that I was going
to make a lot earlier when you were
talking about how you know what works
and this is one of the difficulties that
we find ourselves in because the moment
I start saying to you here are the
things that work I know you can hear
them but a lot of people out there don't
hear them in the way that they're
intended which is you say growth mindset
right this if you want these results
this is what you
do for society that's a much more
difficult and B one of the problems that
you end up having is you're it
necessitates the making of generalized
statements about people and humanity and
Society these things are generally
speaking good and we are now in a
position where the moment I say that for
example you and I before we started we
talked about most people should have
children something it was maybe I can't
remember if you Ed the word should or
it's a quote and I agree with that but
the moment you say that particularly if
you say it online uh a lot of people are
going to come along and give you some
very legitimate examples of people in
situations in which that isn't
true and the one of the big challenges
that we face is it's impossible to make
any sort of generalized normative
statement uh because those counter
examples will immediately be used
against you and usually in a weaponized
way so for
example one of the I mean one of the
themes of today seems to me are mutual
shared love not mutual but shared love
of Thomas Soul one of the the key
messages that he expressed and was then
communicated by other people who picked
up on it particularly from the black
community was the idea of the importance
of a what we used to call an intact
family parents living together Under One
Roof for their
children people have different
explanations of why that is no longer
the case nearly as much as it used to be
some people say it's a consequence of
the sexual Revolution some people will
say it's a cons you know Thomas S
himself I think would say that it's a
consequence of the welfare state you can
slice
that hundred different ways or maybe not
a hundred but a
few but if you
say one of the good things that will
make Society better is children growing
up and in a two parent
household most often with a man and a
woman which allows them to learn the
stereotypes and the ways of Behaving and
blah blah blah blah blah well you've
immediately excluded and this is the
worst thing you can do in modern society
you have excluded a whole lot of people
who also have value and dignity and so
on and so forth
so that is why we're in the predicament
that we're in and I as
someone you know you ask exactly the
right question I struggle to answer it
actually because um it's very very
difficult to talk about some of these
things without immediately finding
yourself in a position where you're
being attacked by people on what I
actually seem like pretty reasonable
grounds you know why why are you sitting
there Constantine telling other people
to have or not have children why are you
sitting there tell you know demon you
know demonizing single mothers why are
you sitting there you know saying that
this type of family unit is better than
that type of family unit when we're all
unique special individuals who have the
right to blah blah blah blah blah so
it's difficult and you know this do you
think there's an answer to that question
though to which question what you just
asked why are you doing this like if
somebody asked me that question yeah
well the the the my answer to that is uh
I believe that for example if we talk
about family unit um children I mean
it's not that I believe there's an an in
AAP capable Avalanche of evidence which
shows that children growing up outside
of that environment do infinitely worse
on average now it's on average there are
single mothers or single fathers who
bring up their children wonderfully
there are children who grow up and care
who go on to to have incredible lives of
fulfillment and success there are all
sorts of counter examples but on
average uh a child growing up in a
stable family environment is far more
likely to do better at school to avoid
going to to prison and and all sorts of
other things right
so uh that's the reason if you don't
want children to suffer and if you want
to have a cohesive society that is why I
would make that statement M right um it
feels to me like you could append look I
know that reality is going to slap me in
the mouth cuz I'm about to say this and
I'm going to read the comments people
are going to be like he's a [ __ ]
[ __ ] uh so but I will say that seems
super reasonable to me so I'm the
biology guy so I'm like like oh this is
about first principles this is about
data and if you just append one thing
we're going to we're going to run the
experiment cuz you just laid out your
argument I'm just going to append one
thing and we're going to see a people
are like word these guys finally cracked
it um if you are outside of that you're
a gay couple you're a single mother
single father whatever um you still have
dignity and I'm so excited for you that
you have children and um you might be in
a position where there are things you're
going to have to take into consideration
that you just have to deal with right so
if I'm riding in a car versus driving a
motorcycle I'm going to act differently
they're both going to get me to my
destination if I'm careful they're safe
I will get people there safely maybe one
has like a track record cars are a
little bit safer maybe even a lot safer
than
motorcycles but what I need to know is
what are the if I'm on the motorcycle I
want you to tell me what the risks are
cuz I'm on the motorcycle so now I need
to act a little bit differently maybe
there are things things that I need to
do maybe even as the the traditional
couple maybe there are blind spots that
we have and you can help me understand
what those are I'm not saying these are
morally better I'm just saying the data
shows that there are outcomes that are
better and so this is what I'm always
trying to get people to understand in
business you have to know the metric of
success so hey everybody having kids gay
straight single uh wherever doesn't
matter what's the outcome that you want
you want your kids to do well
economically emotionally the above
whatever okay cool now let's just look
at the data what choices are most likely
to get you there if you can't make that
choice either because you love somebody
else that doesn't fit that mold or uh
you lost your significant other whatever
there's a million reasons uh where you
find yourself in one of the ones that's
maybe a higher risk group that doesn't
make you bad but you don't want to be
blind to those risks you I would hope
want somebody to tell you okay hey you
have certain um things you're going to
need to address and and really be
thoughtful of so for instance this all
started from before we started rolling I
said most people should have kids I am
not having kids and so the reason that I
brought it up was I know that I'm
playing what I consider a high-risk game
I think it's emotionally highrisk
because
Evolution has said hey I'm going to make
having children hyper rewarding to make
sure that you do it and so so much of
our circuitry is is around the
expectation from an EV evolutionary
perspective that you will have a child
so if you don't there can be a lot of
loneliness a sense of not having meaning
and purpose nothing is living beyond you
and so you know did I waste my life and
all of those questions come with a
really tidy answer if you have kids now
it's not to say that raising kids isn't
brutally difficult and I understand that
and that's why I don't say everybody
should just saying like Nature has made
that one maybe a little bit easier to
find fulfillment than the not having so
I have to my wife and I talk a lot about
how do we protect ourselves from that
because I think when we're 80 and
running a business isn't cool anymore
and we're not like you know caught up in
what we're building and maybe I just
never managed to build the next Disney
and so I feel now like a failure I never
pulled it off and you know so now I'm
really struggling so I'm like we need to
be thoughtful about that now so that we
know how to frame our life think about
our life all of that when we're older so
that this doesn't become an emotionally
devastating choice we made we need to do
it with our wide open Etc so that feels
like the very I would say wise argument
that you've made that there just the
data shows there are higher risk here
there if you add the caveat to this
isn't a moral thing this isn't me saying
that that you're not worthy of Love or
whatever but so often people want to be
right that they maybe aren't a good
messenger
for that uh I think that's certainly
true and um it's a rebuke that I willing
accept I don't always phrase things in
the best way that I could
sometimes however you're operating at a
level of Detachment from emotion that
most people are not um and one of the
problems that all people face really is
that we all or certainly most people I
think you're
your your your circumstances are quite
different to the average person I think
we we we both agree right um most people
are operating at a level of unhappiness
with their choices or things that they
experience without maybe realizing that
the consequences of the choices that
makes it very difficult for them to
accept data because if the data says you
[ __ ] up it's quite uncomfortable and
there's nothing you can do right so for
example you know I I mentioned something
about
um the way that
women uh in modern society on Twitter I
don't know if you saw this um
have what I was trying to say what I was
trying to get across is essentially
women don't actually have the true
freedom to make a choice because there
are about having a kid yes because there
are cultur tell me more because there
are cultural settings that say some some
paths for women are better than others
so if you are a housewife that is not as
high status as having a high-powered
career uh very traumatic in my eyes but
yes very it it's devastating that that's
become sort of this low stat thing
completely completely uh and it isn't
the fault of women by the way although
it is May often other women that will
react that way but it's also the fault
of men too like we're both sexes are
complicit in this um but if you are a 44
year old woman who maybe you feel you I
I I don't know if it's objectively true
necessarily but let's say you feel
subjectively that you did your best
you know you you went out and you dated
guys and you did your best to work on
the relationship but they were [ __ ]
or this happened or that happened or one
of them got killed by a car or or
whatever and here you are you're 44
years old you haven't had a child and
here's some [ __ ] on the internet
telling you to have children when you're
not going to have them right that level
of Detachment that you have which is to
go well you know we're not having
children here are the consequences here
are some of the actions I can take to
mitigate that that is not the people H
that's not something that a lot of
people have uh and that's why the
conversation becomes very very difficult
because there's a lot of emotional
attachment to what people are saying you
know um and there there probably things
that I'm like that about you know you
tell me this or that and I'm I might
react emotionally I I know that that is
not effective and so I work on it over
time and I've certainly got a lot better
but I think a lot of people are not in
that position that you're talking about
where they're truly conscious of the
choices that they're making and their
true consequences MH you know so that's
one of the reasons it makes all of these
conversations very difficult and Jordan
Peterson is working on something called
The Arc I think uh and there are other
people are talking about what is our
positive Vision what's the arc it's I
think I haven't looked too deeply into
it I'll probably end up being involved
in it in some way but it's essentially
what I've been talking about for some
time which is what is that positive
vision and the reason I'll be honest
with you I am
uh first of all I'm not smart enough to
come up with the whole whole thing on my
on my own and also I'm also kind of a
little bit not brave enough too to come
up with the whole thing on my own
because the amount of [ __ ] you're going
to take for starting to articulate some
of these things oh my God right I don't
want Jordan Peterson's life that looks
really brutal no it's terrible uh and so
I I don't want to be the only one saying
it which is why I think we're a group of
people to be talking about it and that's
why I'm super excited particularly on
the children's stuff with people like
Luis Perry and Mary
Harrington Luise Perry I feel like I've
heard that name she wrote a book called
um the case against the sexual
Revolution I think I think that's oh yes
I think uh Jordan interviewed her right
yeah and I've we've interviewed her in
trigonometry oh word um so her and Mary
Harrington are these two feminists but
of a very particular kind Mary's book is
called feminism against progress
yes I think I listened to your interview
on that yeah I think you'd have a
wonderful conversation with both of them
I'm too
chicken it's like what do you want the
channel to be about yeah yeah I know
what you mean Louise particularly you
know Mary's very intellectual almost to
the detriment of sometimes getting her
message across she's a wonderful human
being and her ideas are fascinating but
Louise for me you know I sing her
Praises everywhere because to me she's
like a female Jordan
Peterson uh and she can get away with a
lot more because of that you know but
fundamentally you know one of the things
we're going to have to reckon with is
we've as a society we or as a
civilization even
we've we've unpicked a lot of the the
threads of the sweater that used to hold
the sweater together religion family
children all of these things um and
we are going to have to think about what
a what a new sweater looks like and it
has to be I feel you know I explain to
you why why there's good reason to be
cowardly about saying a lot of these
things which is why we have to frame it
in a different way that is Invitational
it can't be you must have
children that doesn't work
anymore maybe it never work I maybe it
did work 100 years ago maybe it did work
for most people most of the time it has
to be more
like what you're talking about which
is what do you want what do you truly
truly want because let's be honest going
out to parties and getting drunk and
taking drugs and having casual sex isn't
making you fulfilled I'm sorry if this
sounds like a conservative idea I'm
sorry I wish I didn't have to articulate
these ideas that sound conservative
because then people call me conservative
and then I get end up in the box but the
fact of the matter is we all know that
is a fact
these things do not make you fulfilled
and happy in the long run they just
don't right so what is it that you want
what is it that every human being wants
you talked about it I can't remember if
it was before we started or after it's
meaning and fulfillment right how are
you going to get
that here are some things that people
have done in the past to get those
things meaning and fulfillment how do
you get that well for some people that's
going to be meaningful work right but
not everybody's going to have that
opportunity for some people is going to
be a family not everyone's going to have
that opportunity but here is a menu with
a fewer option with a few options that
that we can offer you as a human as is
the body of human uh knowledge about
these things that's what I think it has
to be look like it has to look like look
if you don't want to sign up to this
that's fine but deep down everybody
wants meaning and fulfillment here are
some of the ways to get
there man I think that's that is
critical meaning and fulfillment really
is the punchline I am often trying to
get people to understand all that
ultimately matters is how you feel about
yourself when you're by
yourself and the way that you feel good
about yourself is basically following
the guidelines of fulfillment which I
think there's a recipe for and it goes
something like this again Evolution guy
over here so you evolution is going to
guarantee that if you do the following
things you will be fulfilled and if you
don't you won't no matter what don't
care how rich you are you're going to
have to work really hard mhm to gain a
set of skills mhm that allow you to
serve yourself and others in a way that
you find
exciting if you do that your life will
be awesome if it comes easily to you you
won't have the things you want if you
work really hard but only Serve Yourself
you won't have the things you want like
there nature is trying to make sure that
you have kids that stay alive long
enough to have kids that have kids so
it's like that that's the drill and that
is as far as I can tell that the formula
that's going to make you feel that way
so in the working hard and all that is
where you earn your own respect earning
your own respect is about having a value
system you say these are the things that
are worthy of respect and I'm going to
do these uh I think the only feedback
loop is the pursuit of fulfillment so
anyway if you're doing things to earn
your own respect then I think you'll
feel good about yourself and you're by
yourself even if you're failing there's
a whole I've got a whole stick about how
to construct your mindset to be
resilient etc etc it's beyond what we're
talking about right now where does
raising children particularly if you're
a woman fit into that okay so and family
generally so this is where you if you
think about all like what I'm trying to
do is the grand scale version of what
having a family is and I think if the um
if the individual is the right level of
analysis for your own life for the
government to think about the its
constituency all of that is to get down
to the IND idual the family is the
smallest cluster of meaning and so you
get if nature wants to make sure that
you contribute to the group The Family
becomes the place where you can First
Express that but it's also the place
where you get to be uh you have a role
and so you're going to be able to have
autonomy so there's um a lot of things
if you've read stepen pinker's book
drive uh talks a lot about this Daniel
pink I forget which one of them wrote
this forgive me uh but there's a book
called drive stepen pink up there's a
book called Drive you're right it's
definitely not Daniel pink maybe the
book is Drive anyway uh and in it it
talks about what really drives people a
huge driver other than meaning and
purpose is autonomy and so at the family
level there's a reason that people say
I'm the king of the castle meaning of my
own home like when I come in my own home
nobody else gets to tell me what to do
you know etc etc and so the husband and
the wife come together as this
yin-yang uh duel that together is truly
better than either of them are
individually if you take a longterm
stance you're going to shape each other
so you're literally making each other
better when it's functioning well and
then when you have kids now you've got
that I have done the thing I have worked
hard to become a worthy wife or a worthy
husband a worthy mom a worthy father so
worked hard gained a set of skills and
now I'm serving the group not just
myself so I'm doing things that matter
to me so I'm going to teach my son to be
a man in a way that feels good and this
is the way I believe things ought to be
and so in doing that in that small atom
now it's like you're going to get all
that fulfillment that you want now I get
it this is probably somewhat of a modern
construct even if you give me modern in
the last 20,000 years right but I think
it's all an echo of things that work at
the tribal level things that work at
like the state level all of it is you
get these the individual has to be
strong unto themselves accomplished
that's probably a dangerous word to use
but strong and accomplished in the ways
they will need to be to serve the family
need to be to serve their local
community and then it just scales up
from there so we do have that drive to
we're really going to derail now but to
we want to be recognized for our
contributions and so my wife and I do
that for each other um we want to have
something that lasts Beyond us kids so
anyway again I would like to restate I
don't have children so it's not the path
that I've chosen to walk but when I look
at from an evolutionary standpoint I'm
like that is the safer path so anyway it
goes back to there's no solution there's
only tradeoffs and I just want people to
understand okay whatever path I walk
it's going to be a trade-off so what am
I trading off that's right and I think
that's the question that that's why I
said what I said on Twitter about women
not having true choice I didn't quite
phrase it that way but that's what I
meant which is
a lot of people are being culturally
manipulated into making decisions that
are not in their long-term benefit or
interest or happiness they they're just
not they're just not um and they're
being encouraged to see uh the pursuit
of meaningless things as far superior to
the things that will actually give them
meaning and fulfillment on average
doesn't mean there aren't exceptions
right but on average so that I think is
and those things you know find a partner
who loves you that you love that you
grow together with uh have children if
that's what you want to do uh seek
meaningful work and um you know to me
I'm speaking just from personal
experience personal growth and
experience uh experiencing myself
develop is probably one of the highest
values that I hold for myself you know
guaranteed um skill acquisition you know
I always I always talk to my guys about
this it's like you don't really want to
learn how to do a job necessarily you
want to acquire a set of skills and
build the set of skills that can be used
to do many different jobs uh and you
package them together this is why you
know like I know you you you tried to
hand it standup and I did standup For
probably four or five years uh I never
got to the point you know it takes about
10 years to become a great standup I
never got to the point where I was great
I was doing well I was pretty good but
what happened was I found something that
combined my skills in a better way which
is thinking and talking and joking and
you put that in a package and then
you've got something that's much more
interesting than just for me at least as
a stand-up comedian I never found that
as fulfilling as what I do now um so
meaningful work learn grow Etc uh and
then I think you know another layer to
add on top of this and this is actually
something that I I'm aware of thanks to
my wife men and women are incredibly
different incredibly different and so
you have you can't imagine how surprised
I was to find that become controversial
I was like what of all the things I was
like wait wait what I I don't know what
to say about that man I mean it's so
silly that we even have to have this
conversation but men and women are
incredibly different and one of the most
beneficial things to my wife and I's
relationship has been the fact that
we've read books about how exactly
different we are I mean John Gray who I
think lives somewhere around here who's
been writing about this for decades now
I don't know if I subscribe to every
tenant of his ideology or whatever but
his books work uh and some of the things
that I've learned from that meant that
we have much more fulfilled and happier
relationship but also we're much more
fulfilled and happy as individuals um so
that that un you know it's that know
thyself thing I think uh and part of the
the problem with what I see is with
deliberately brainwashing people not to
realize that they are to a large extent
what they are that part of who you are
is driven by your biology and if you can
understand how best to manage that
particularly in partnership with some of
the opposite sex if you are heterosexual
you're going to you're going to be like
a rocket that's taking off because
you've got all of those things you know
your trigger points you know the things
that that don't work for you you know
what works for you just like you know I
don't know if you're familiar with John
gra but like the idea of the cave for a
man uh basically it's the idea that
every now and again a man will pull back
in a relationship and will feel like
you'll go and like you know work try and
repair his motorcycle or play computer
games or read a book and you'll close
the door to the office and not be
available and women tend to find that
very scary because they're like whoa
what the hell's going on but the guy is
just doing his recharge so that he can
come back and be full of love again like
that was revolutionary because what
women will do if they don't know that is
chase after you into the cave which
means you only run away further and
right it's this Dynamic and John Gray
wrote about this and Men Are from Mars
Women Are from Venus like 40 years ago
and now we've got all these crazy people
running around saying well there's no
difference between men and women I mean
it's insane the one that helped me the
most it's like one of those catchy
phrases and I'm like oh my God this is
so true is uh women need to feel loved
to have sex yes and men need to have sex
to feel loved right when I heard that I
was like oh my God like it was it was
like such an epiphany where oh now I get
why she acts the way that she does and
now I actually understand myself better
cuz I never really thought about it but
I was like yeah if we're not having sex
I feel disconnected whereas for her if
she feels disconnected she doesn't want
to have sex so now you can get into this
really weird dynamic where it's like she
wants you know all this talk and like
connection and I'm like man like I'm not
into that unless we're having sex like
what are what are we even talking about
here and here again we come back to the
problems with the society that we live
in if you got that issue going on which
every couple has had the solution is
difficult to articulate out loud because
it's very controversial potentially I
mean John Gray's solution I don't want
to misrepresent it but it's kind of like
sometimes you need to have sex even
though you're not
entirely do you see oh I'm waiting for
you to say it oh and and it's like do
you see what I mean I do I am not
advocating that anyone has sex for [ __ ]
I don't want to do this but you know
what I mean I know exactly what you're
saying so in order for men and women to
be healthy together it requires us to be
able to say some things that we don't
want to say in public
yeah and that's a bad place to be that
we we feel hesitant to say them in
public right um that's a bad place to be
if we want men and women to to be
healthier and that's another of the
things that really bugs me about the
situation that we're in is like the idea
that men and women are engag in some
sort of Battle of the Sexes is the
craziest idea I've ever [ __ ] heard
these two groups of people who have
spent the entirety of human
evolution having to work together to
survive and to thrive they are they're
what they're against each other are you
crazy are you insane the and and the
Very notion that we spend almost no time
talking about how the sexist can and
should live together and coexist and
grow together and so on and we spend all
our time talking about who gets paid
more and all of this stuff I'm not
saying those things aren't necess
necessarily important and I'm against
discrimination of any kind obviously but
the focus of our attention to me is on
that issue completely in the wrong place
yeah it's interesting all of this stuff
going back to that idea there there's a
reason that these arguments endure and
the reason is that there's truth on both
sides so uh I read a lot about history
this is something that came to me pretty
recently like the last five or six years
and you read historical stuff and you
realize men and women were working
together to to survive it was very harsh
but also like people weren't really
trying to understand each other as
deeply as we might care about that now
and so there very much was like you went
off to war and you did your thing and
you really may do some raping and
pillaging and then you come back but
it's like you're still my husband and so
the all of the stuff of we would never
have survived without helping each other
and oh by the way people really did rap
and pillage it's like both of those
things are true and history is messy and
one thing I want to talk about today but
maybe not yet is what I call the
triangle of evil um humans are
complicated like really complicated and
if
we I like the idea that there are
certain mind viruses that as as a
society make us on the long Arc of
History Bend towards Justice I love that
like that's amazing but any one lifetime
can can have its like horrible things
happened in that Society things that we
would never be okay with today I mean
just like really grueling but at the
same time you can go back to any time in
history and there would be love and
you'd be even if you were an arranged
marriage that you would find this mutual
respect and you'd raise kids that you
love and you die for each other I mean
it's just like humans are messy and
complicated and beautiful and wonderful
and it's
really really interesting but you have
to be willing to get into the nuance and
so when I think about you know living in
a modern time I've been with my wife for
22 years and in no uncertain terms I am
a better person because of her I don't
know who I would be without her there
was a time before she stepped out front
so she was a housewife and just really
supporting me but I was starting to take
off as an entrepreneur starting to get
recognized had a show like all of that
and I burst into tears one day and I'm
not a crier man so for people like that
really really know me they know that
this is like weird uh I burst into tears
one day privately just with my wife and
I was like you will never get credit for
the fact of who I've become because you
have influenced me and even even having
that conversation like I love talking
about there's a reason the cliche behind
every powerful man is a powerful woman
because women for eons not necessarily
true now with the pill and the sexual
Revolution and all that and they're in
the workforce but for Millennia they had
to work through men and so they got very
good at I want a thing and I'm going to
get you to also want that thing are you
saying women are manipulative oh brother
I'm saying if we can use a word that is
less radioactive but 100% so uh in in
the movie no I love it it's just true
it's true so going back to this idea of
being a predictive engine
ofi you're truth andu perspec look this
has changed now and it's awesome like I
want women to work my wife is is a boss
[ __ ] and uh is an entrepreneur in her
own right and is
unbelievable but my wife will be the
first to tell you oh yeah for the first
decade of our marriage she wasn't
expressing herself in business she was
expressing herself through me in
business and it worked and she knew how
to get what she wanted and it was women
from an evolutionary
perspective they needed to be optimized
to tend to Young and so they have
effectively superpowers for raising kids
doesn't mean they need to raise kids you
can allocate those superpowers however
you want but that nature was just like
hey I need you to be very good at
raising children 15% of women have a
fourth photo receptor uh that actually
lets them see colors the guys can't even
see which hypoth is goes would help them
see changes in color in their skin their
kids skin tone so that they'd be able to
read sickness mood whatever yeah makes a
lot of sense their breast can produce
milk I mean just all kinds of things
their hips for childbirth on and on and
on uh and
so understanding
that for Millennia women were I mean we
are a sexually dimorphic species not
massively we're not like gorillas where
they're you know eight times bigger than
the female but there is sexual
dimorphism men have stronger upper
bodies etc etc so the workloads would
tend to get broken up in a certain way
and so if you're not going to be the
half of the species that's going to
confront something headon like for a
woman and unfortunately I've seen uh
these YouTube videos where when you see
a guy snap and get uh throw a punch on a
woman and you recognize the difference
in ability to generate Force it's
distressing and you realize at the ends
of the spectrum cuz there's a ton of
overlaps of course there's a lot of
women that could beat up a lot of men
but as you get to the ends of the
distribution the strongest man is going
to be able to beat up every single woman
on the planet period Bar None end of
story uh and
so it would not be a good evolutionary
strategy for women to do the
confrontation head-on so they get far
more um ingenious like they just have a
sophisticated set of tools that happen
to be psychological in nature that was a
lot of words to get around the word
manipulation but you get the idea so um
I was rocked to tears to be like wo
you've shaped me into a person that you
will never get credit for thankfully now
with everything that's happened I think
she does get a lot of credit she's able
to tell her own story and all that um
but it was really a breathtaking moment
for me to realize whoa like you have
shaped me I have shaped you we are a
partnership we bring equal value but in
different ways and the more we've come
to understand the different things that
we're good at and each of us are good at
different things but together we really
do bring equal weight but they're not
the same thing like we're not competing
on the same things uh you know what it's
so interesting to me that you told that
story because uh my wife and I exactly
the same I've been together 20
years um I know you guys have been
together so long yeah uh been together
that long and it it was exactly the same
story uh my wife was uh always working
uh from the beginning but she was also
working on me from the beginning and
pretty damn hard actually um and I
actually I forgot to give you a copy of
my book I'll give you one afterwards but
oh I have read it I I know but I want to
give you a signed copy and if you read
it you know that the dedication in it
says to Alina with whom without whom
nothing would be possible and everything
would be pointless and that's how I feel
um and more generally you
know women are
incredible to a man a woman is [ __ ]
amazing MH because she can do things
that you like I remember the first time
uh I saw my mom resolve a conflict just
with a smile and a joke I was like
wow I couldn't believe it because it was
so different to the way that young men
in particular tend to do things and I
was like whoa this is incredible and so
that's one of the terrible things about
the standoffs that we create is like you
can learn so much and grow so much
together and help each other so much um
that you know this division is
completely unnecessary it should be the
other way around we should be looking
for ways to work together and um you
know that's why I've always found uh
personal development and relationship
growth together to be like essential
parts of life essential parts of life so
I hear exactly what you're saying now as
for the recognition I
mean do you do you you know I believe
that partly by talking about it my wife
does get the credit by dedicating my
book to her in that way she from people
who read the book she gets the credit
and also now I'd like to think after all
the hard work that she put in the
investment is starting to slowly pay off
and as we know from Jordan Peterson
women make 80% of the purchasing
decisions so uh all that bacon that I'm
uh going to be bringing home you know
she's going to be enjoying the fruits of
that and so are our children and that's
kind of how it should be at least for us
you know um she she's very talented
photographer in her own right but it's
not something that she's ever made into
a huge business uh and I'm sure she'll
carry on doing it but right now she just
wants to be with our son and I I I could
not be happier to be able to provide
that in a society in which that's
actually become quite difficult not many
people can do that for each other very
true yeah it's interesting and Society
definitely has a lot of influence on
what people want or think they're
supposed to want so I lived a really
interesting trajectory with my wife so
started out she was a good Greek girl
raised to be a housewife her dad
literally said all right fine you want
to go study film it doesn't matter
you're just going to end up married and
with kids and he didn't mean it in a
horrible way I that's just how he came
up and so for her she was very much
raised to be a wife and a mother but she
had dreams and but for the first decade
of our relationship she wasn't pursuing
it she ended up writing a book about
this and it was actually really
interesting to see the beginning of our
marriage from her perspective
of like oh I've kind of been related to
this housewife role I don't know like I
know I want to be a mom cuz in the
beginning she did she wanted four kids
and uh you know I know I want to be a
mom but I don't know that I want to be a
housewife and so but I do want to
support my husband and so like that was
the vibe and then I needed her help at
work when we started this new company
and she was like to support my husband I
will help no interest in being an
entrepreneur just I want to be a good
wife I'm going to support my husband and
then supporting me was like okay the
job's getting kind of big okay now you
I'm going to need you to hire some
employees now you're running a division
with 40 people under you and you're
responsible for $85 million in revenue
and you've got like a 10,000 foot
warehouse and like all this stuff and it
was just like whoa how did I turn around
and and she's now an entrepreneur and
like in the thick of it for years and
then realizes actually I don't want kids
I'm getting so much fulfillment out of
this and growing and all of that that I
want to do this thing and I had to mourn
the loss of my
housewife and it's something that we've
talked really openly about and she you
know as this is all playing out becoming
very different dynamic between us is
changing
and I was like I want you to become
whoever you want to become and my value
system mandates that I help you thrive
in whatever way you want to thrive
but you have to give me the space to
mourn that I used to have somebody that
was supporting me cooking all my meals
laying out my clothes taking care of the
house um you know we were preparing to
have kids all that and and now that's
going away and I'm cool with that
because I want you to be who you want to
be but let's be realistic about this is
a major change and so this is going to
take some
reorientation and so we talk through it
and process through it and I actually
was very fine not having kids for the
longest time I was the one dragging her
feet she wanted to have kids right away
and I was like yo let's slow roll this
here uh so I was very fine with that but
that change in Dynamic wasn't something
that was easy but to your earliest point
on this it's we're not battling like
we're trying to find this thing where
we're sharing a life together and that's
how we've always looked at it is okay
okay for us divorce isn't an option we
never say the dword we don't even joke
about it so I'm never going to be like
oh if you don't do that you're going to
find yourself out on the street ha haa
like nope we don't play that game at all
yeah we don't either and um this is the
other thing that's difficult to say but
if you want to preserve a relationship
that's the sort of attitude that we will
take in a lot of
cases in a lot of cases and there are
people who get married and never never
say a cross word to Each Other M but
they're not the majority um and there
are obviously people who are abusive and
and all of that but for the V majority
of
people having a relationship that you're
not prepared to give up on either of you
it has to be both of you it has to be
both of you that are not prepared to
give up on uh is going to make it much
more likely that you don't give up on
it absolute facts and
so again in a culture where we treat
each other much more as objects than we
I think ever have done before where you
know oh blonde brunette you know get
whatever you want on on an
app that is much less likely I think and
also we are all um we're all so much
more interested in ourselves as
individuals um that that that again
becomes more difficult so um that thing
that you're talking about that's the way
that's the way it's certainly the way
that I've experienced it um the way to
fulfillment in a relationship the way to
being together to being able to have
different visions of your future and
reconcile them over time and accept that
you're not both exactly the way that the
other person would like that's a that's
a process man that's a process that you
have to really really work on uh and in
order to do that when you've got all
these other great options supposedly um
you know it takes that commitment it
takes that commitment I think it takes
saying we're not talking about divorce
because there I don't know about you
there have been plenty of situations in
which in our relationship we could have
gone down that towards that path at
least you know um and to me you know all
the stuff that we do and whatever it's
inevitable that your relationship with
your spouse is going to be the most
important thing uh just is no doubt just
is no doubt yeah man relationships this
is It's hard to watch what's happening
in the culture now where there's just
people having sex a lot less and you get
the um God I always forget how the stat
goes but it's like a small number of men
are getting all the action getting all
the action yeah nice nice and easy way
to say it and then hypergamy which for
people that haven't heard that word
before the female tendency to date
across and up in the status hierarchy um
as women make more money it becomes a
more narrow pool and if they're not able
to broaden their Horizons economically
then they find themselves without a mate
or they're competing for that really
really small pool of guys that then
aren't uh they're not going to commit
because they've got so many women coming
to them for sex and I hear this
anecdotally I mean I I have friends who
are like incredible
women incredible they're hot they are
successful they are [ __ ] brilliant
talented and
they they find themselves in
relationships with guys where you know
their expectation of what relationship
is supposed to be which is commitment
and so on because the the guy that
they're with has to be even in many
situations evening even more amazing he
doesn't need he doesn't need to commit
he doesn't need to commit and and
there's also another Factor here which
is you know again this is difficult to
say but
made values different for men and women
particular over time yeah and as a woman
as you get older a guy in his 50s who's
a billionaire and successful and famous
and whatever he doesn't need to be
dating a woman his
age right but a woman in her 50s is not
likely to be dating a hot 25-year-old
guy it's just not how that works so I
feel really so much empathy and sympathy
and a lot of concern actually for women
who are in that situation because they
deserve to to to be fulfilled and to
have those relationships and to have the
kids that they want to have but we've
we've got a society where that that's
more difficult you know it's it's really
not a healthy situation in my opinion
and also you talk about you know um
people having less sex and it's true
young people are having less sex than
others and you do have the the issue at
the top of the sort of M male where
they're having a lot but also there are
a lot of women now who are having a lot
of sex not because they actually want to
but because they think that this is the
one that's going to take them to the
relationship that they want you see what
I mean and women are now quite often
finding themselves having sex in a very
masculine male way where it's like
you're supposed to not feel Detachment
not feel attachment and all of that and
the truth is that's not really how it
works for the vast majority of women
there are some exceptions of course but
having sex in the male way of women just
kind of makes them miserable you know
and I think that's tragic I think we
should all acknowledge that that's
tragic that that that a lot of women are
doing things that aren't making them
happy but again for some reason saying
it makes you a bad person I think that
so if I were going to steal man why that
makes you a bad person here's what I
think is happening
so there is people need to know that I'm
a worthy person I'm worthy of love I'm
worthy of respect no matter what path I
choose and so that's why if I were going
to insert like a new way to talk about
this it's like if let's say that I'm a
life counselor and I I do this in
business a lot I I actually I do this in
life uh stuff we have something called
impact Theory University people come and
ask me questions and I'm like here's how
I think through that problem if somebody
came to me with that the first thing I
always say is okay what's your goal you
tell me the goal and then I'm going to
try to help you get there m
uh and if you tell me that okay my goal
is to have a lot of sex but I don't want
to catch feels okay we can do that but
we have to understand there's no
Solutions only trade-offs so if you run
that here are going to be the potential
risk given what evolution has primed you
for which is going to be connection that
uh sex is a high investment thing
because from an evolutionary standpoint
you getting pregnant was a big deal for
guys not so much amazing you know and
dash and they're good and maybe they
have a kid maybe they don't but for you
you're going to carry that kid it's a
huge expense you have to raise them ah
so that is a it puts you in a super
vulnerable position all that so there's
a lot of Machinery in your brain that's
going to be different than the partner
that you're seeking who's really wired
for that game that you're playing so we
can do it cool but like we need to
understand what what are going to be the
trade-offs here odds of you catching FS
go up a lot odds of you finding
fulfillment in doing that go down a lot
uh you're going to be pulling against
sort of The evolutionary
trajectory which again I'm perfectly
open to navigating that path but I just
want people to start this isn't a moral
thing you're not a worse person but if
you're playing a what I'll when I say a
higher risk game what I mean is that
Evolution has given you a playbook for
fulfillment there's not only one path so
there are different ways to get there
but like the thing that I think protects
Lisa and I somewhat is we understand by
not having kids that we're we're taking
the more high-risk path to fulfillment
because we're doing it through a company
that's part of it so what happens to my
fulfillment if the the public that is
consuming the product that I make is
like this sucks do I get to be fulfilled
anymore or is it now well you didn't get
the outcome that you wanted and so that
invalidates my whole life so we've had
to build
like thought matrices to deal with that
right so the way that we combat that is
don't value yourself for the end result
value yourself for the sincere Pursuit
mm so did you sincerely try to get a
growth mindset out at scale through
ideas and entertainment yes but it just
it didn't work I was never able to quite
build the skill set all right man you
went for something you really played to
win and etc etc so all right you're
you're going down this this high-risk
path not not risk you know necessarily
cosmically just fulfillment is my
norstar I laid that out earlier what I
think everybody should be optimizing for
and so if we can strip some of the
Judgment away from that if we can give
people a growth mindset so they know oh
I didn't get what I wanted okay I can
try something different and hopefully
get something more akin to what I want
in another path so you're not giving up
your agency you know what you want you
established your goal first you run an
experiment this this is literally the
physics of progress you know what your
goal is you see what the obstacle is
between where you're at and your goal
you run the experiment did you actually
get closer to your goal yes no if no try
again better the next time you know you
know what I mean you just repeat the
cycle but if you feel like whoa I didn't
get what I wanted that doesn't feel good
I feel judged by you now I'm just going
to go on the attack so you don't tell me
the thing that I'm
feeling and that's where it's like well
now you can't even navigate well on the
higher risk path that you've chosen to
get the Fulfillment that you ultimately
want to feel which is where we come back
to the fact that most people are not
operating at a level of emotional
Detachment that you are M uh and so uh
and also if you speak to women privately
a lot of them will say that the the
falling into the Trap that I described
is not a deliberate thing they're not
going out to go and have lots of sex
without catching the fields if they're
actually honest with themselves not all
of them but many of them if they can get
past the emotion what they what they
actually want is to to to date and find
a partner to be with for the for you
know I was going to say the rest of the
life because that's kind of my value but
you know what I mean to to settle down
with to have children with whatever if
if that's what they want um but they're
not able to do that because they feel
that there's a pressure because all the
other girls are available to the guy
that they're currently with to have sex
with on the second day however
anecdotally as I observe people around
me the women who don't don't let that
happen straight away tend to end up much
more likely securing the partner yeah
that seems to be a strategy that works
better um but you're right I mean I I'm
actually loving this conversation so
much partly because you're showing
people a way of operating in the world
that is so much more powerful than the
way that the vast majority of people
operate probably to some extent me
included I don't have the level of
emotional Detachment that you do uh in
terms of making these decisions so it's
I'm learning it's interesting you uh you
have a way though of thinking that is
very analytical you're able to
articulate very difficult points
um so I suppose in the end this is all a
trade-off cuz I would kill to be able to
do what you do uh which now brings us to
the triangle of evil because I I want
your thoughts on this a segue well I
need your help on this because this is
something that I um evil very
distressing yeah I think of evil I think
of you Constantin come on of course yeah
uh okay so the triangle of evil is uh ma
Stalin Hitler and I think that they
I've read a lot about them and they feel
to me reflective of something that's
just real in the human
psyche um and I have taken away from
reading about them so oddly enough
Hitler was like sort of the the slow boy
in all of this did not kill nearly as
many people as Stalin and Ma like which
growing up I never heard about I had no
idea that those were uh dark figures in
the world which is already startling but
reading about them uh getting back to
this idea of there so in fact we haven't
talked about this we sort of dance
around it the way I see the world is it
is a um a scale so you have right and
left just to keep it easy but there's
pathology on both sides so if you go too
far in either direction you're going to
have a problem it doesn't matter so Mao
and Stalin are what the left look like
when they become pathological and Hitler
is what the right looks like when it
becomes pathological um even in in and
of itself I that's disputable but we can
get into me with it well people don't
like to hear this argument but there's a
reason that Hitler's party was called
the national socialists
interesting and what does the right then
look like if it goes pathological well
this is the debate I
mean not only Nazism but also fascism I
mean the term fascism comes from the
word fascia which is a bundle in Rome
that was woven it's it's a collectivist
mindset both the fascist and and the
national socialists on a large number of
things
were uh leftwing in in the way that we
conceive of being leftwing now
economically
particularly um we have an interview on
our Channel with uh one of my favorite
guests ever he's a brilliant guy called
Steven Hicks a Canadian professor uh of
his philosopher and historian of
philosophy and and if you kind of want
to delve into that I'd recommend people
go and check that out because I won't do
it justice here uh however I we can also
conceptualize it rather than going as a
scale as a circle which is or or like a
a horseshoe or something where the two
extremes end up coming quite close
together because they end up operating
in similar ways um so it's a just a side
point really for for our disc no it's
actually very interesting so uh reading
about them seeing that there's this
horseshoe shaped where
the
the they're trying to control everything
because and I'll even give them all I'll
give them the benefit of the doubt and I
will say they're not evil they really
believed that they had the right answer
now it's tough to look real close and
not feel like they weren't just [ __ ]
evil but that's too easy it's it's an
easy way to dismiss them let's say for a
second that they really believed in
their heart that they were going to do
good things for a lot of people and but
just real quick I just have to kill a
few of you in order to get everybody in
line because I'm trying to distribute
things fairly or I'm trying to in the
case of yeah the case of Nazi Germany
like hey we got a bum rap you know after
World War I like we got to rise out of
this somehow
and uh but I'm going to have to kill a
few you and I am going to have to make
sure that you don't say anything bad
against me and so to distribute
everything evenly uh we're going to have
to kill the koks and um but at the end
of this everything's going to be okay so
what is it about human nature that
allows people to think
that to usher in the Utopia it's okay to
to break a few eggs to make the
omelet I don't know is the honest answer
uh I think we talked a little bit about
collectivism before and I think that's a
big part of the answer to your question
collectivism is an ideology
that
um justifies the sacrifice of some for
the benefit of greater good so the
pathology requires the abandonment of
the individual's s sacredness certainly
in the cases that you were talking about
that was absolutely the case these are
not people who believed in the rights of
the individual these are people who
believed that for the greater good some
people must be sacrificed um and who
knows I
mean one of the difficult parts of this
conversation is can you run a country
like
Russia on a western liberal mindset this
is a big debate among geopoliticians
because the people just won't take to it
it's not so much about the people it's
it's a pretty [ __ ] hard country to
survive in it's cold it's remote it's
desperate it's poorly developed uh can
you really uh make that country exist
without authoritarianism it's it's a
legitimate question actually why would
it need authoritarianism I thought you
were going to say you would need
collectivism well it's both so you can't
have one without the other so you need a
totalitarian leader to have a
collectivist state is potentially a way
of looking at this is I'm not committing
to that statement but if you look at uh
the history of Russia I mean Russia's
never had democracy ever there's never
been a single proper democratic
transition or power in Russia ever H
Ever um it it's it's not the case uh you
know the there are different ways of
conceiving of it a lot of geopol
geopolitical thinkers talk about
uh the Civil different types of
civilizations and British and American
CI civilizations like um this is
actually something I have a couple of
pieces on my substack about this uh
breaking down the philosophy of a guy
called Alexander Dugan who's called they
call in Putin's brain now how
influential he is in the Kremlin we
don't know exactly but I break down some
of the the basic arguments and the
argument is that uh countries like
Britain and America the civilizations of
the
they trading nations their commercial
Nations they use the power of their Navy
historically speaking like the British
Empire and today the United States to
influence and and and interact with
other countries whereas and this goes
back historically
Carthage was a civilization of the sea
this was a trading nation and they stood
in opposition to the Roman Empire which
is a civilization of the land to the
Chinese and the Russian Empires today
which are civilizations of the land and
one of the arguments is that
Civilization of the land are necessarily
collectivist and necessarily
authoritarian because the way that they
have to operate in the world is very
very different to the way that trading
nations operate because the values of
liberalism for example are much more
suited to a naval based trading Nation
uh than it is to a collect a landbased
nation like a Russia or China so to some
extent you know am I claiming that if
it's kind of like that argument about
can you bomb democracy into Afghanistan
Well turns out you can't right and
that's because they have their own
culture and their own values that don't
really then that it's not having voting
booths is not enough for democracy right
it requires certain other cultural
assumptions that don't exist in other
parts of the world um so yeah
collectivism seems to be a particular
thing that goes hand inand with
authoritarianism and it makes sense
because if you have a society in which
um the majority is going to kill a
minority or tell them what to do or
restrict their rights on somehow that
will require Force
inevitably yeah that's the part that
always feels like it's missing from the
dialogue of people that want
to uh you know redistribute wealth or
whatever is at some point when you start
taking things from one person to give to
somebody
else you're going to have to do that by
force like it won't
it won't just happen naturally and so
you really stopped me in my tracks when
you said that uh a collectivist nation
requires an authoritarian leader I had
never thought about that
before
um that's really interesting because I
had always thought about it as just
communism requires an authoritarian
leader but I didn't step it back to the
collectivist society that ends up giving
birth to Communism also just by its
nature that's where it's headed uh
that's really interesting I don't know
how I feel about that I don't I don't
actually know if it's true I'm throwing
it out there as as an idea for us to
discuss it rings distressingly true I
just don't like the way it makes me feel
so that okay so the reason that I call
this a triangle of evil is because
reading about it was really eye
openening so I grew up in Tacoma
Washington not particularly educated on
this kind of stuff then went straight
into business as a way to have enough
resources to tell my stories
and so maybe when a lot of other people
were waking up to what the world is like
I was not um and so I discovered this
when I started reading about history and
when you read about history you start to
see the patterns that people are talking
about and you're like whoa like this
stuff really does repeat like this
becomes really
predictable which is why I it feels like
talking about culture is important
because whatever happens to the culture
is really going to Happ profound impacts
on the individual my bias again uh and
how they either can Thrive or not Thrive
and so reading about for instance how MA
took over China um and what the human
tragedy is when you really believe that
it's okay to kill as many people as you
need to in order to have the power to
make the world go the way that you
wanted to go and I can't help but keep
defaulting back to
um if you know what your goal is and you
know the experiment that you're going to
run and you can look at the outcome of
this it's like hey this is predictable
that if if you try to do communism like
you cuz everyone keeps going well
communism hasn't really been tried or
socialism uh hasn't really been tried
it's like but you can it even as a
thought experiment so even if I grant
you okay these were all imperfect the
thought experiment should lead you to
realize it can't be done perfectly like
it's not possible because you're asking
every single person to
willingly give things up on an equal
basis and when you interface with the
world in any capacity you very quickly
realize it it's just impossible to get
everybody to think the same
and so my read on this is that Evolution
guaranteed that people don't think the
same that it wants that Dynamic tension
that we were talking about before what
do you like as somebody that grew up in
the USSR what do you say to people that
are like oh it's never really been tried
and we just need to get it right you
know in some ways I almost don't think
there's any point in saying anything
because I don't think they're coming
from the same place that you come from
when you're talking about these things
you come at it from the point of view of
what is my goal how am I going to get
there uh I don't think the people who
advocate for you know fairly extreme
forms of Socialism or
communism uh or social democracy as they
call it but often it's really a disguise
for for for their views uh I don't think
they're coming at it from the point of
view of a goal I think they're coming at
it from a point of view of
dissatisfaction with the status
quo uh and people who start
revolutions are operating almost always
on that basis it's not about you
know you know I was driving past a shop
and I saw a better table I'll go and buy
that table it's like this table is so
bad let's throw it out and then we'll
find something right um I think that
tends to be how people think about it
and you know the thing I always say to
people in the west you talk about the
inevitability of it
all
um as you know I talk about this in the
book
my
grandmother she's not my biological
grandmother but she she was my
grandfather's second wife and I always
called her my grandmother she was born
in a goua she was there because her
parents who weren't married or didn't
know each other at the time had been
sent there both losing their other
spouses in the process o and they met
there and she was born in in this camp
and what happened once you were released
from the camps was you were not allowed
to live with within a very long distance
of the major cities in the ussi you
essentially became like a third class
Citizen and what happened was most of
the former prisoners of these camps
ended up settling in areas in small
towns
nearby where they lived together with
the local small minority of the local
native population various sort of tribes
that had been living there for for
centuries and the former guards from the
very same camps
that these prisoners had been
in in 1953 when Joseph Stalin died um my
grand my grandmother and her family they
were living in a tiny flat tiny
apartment uh Across The Landing there
was another apartment which was a family
where the man was one of the guards and
one of the camps Jesus living AC cross
like this and my grandmother tells a
story how that guy's mother if the kids
misbehaved she would say to them you
know when your parents get sent back to
the camp Jesus you're going to get
kicked out and we're going to get your
apartment as
well wow now 1953 Joseph styland
dies
and my grandmother told me that there
was a Spate of
suicides among these former Gods wow
because what they were doing was finally
revealed for what it was these people
truly believed they truly believed that
they they were beating these people and
torturing these people and killing these
people for the greater good because
that's what they were
told and so what I say to people in the
west always is do not be a useful idiot
do not violate your own moral standards
and your own moral rules for the sake of
the greater good there is no greater
good than your own moral
standards there is no greater good than
that
do you know in fact you do because
you've read the book but most people
have no idea how the USSR got a nuclear
bomb it was given to them by Co s Soviet
sympathizers in the west J and that is
why Joseph Stalin a man who killed
millions of his own people ended up
having a nuclear weapon and was able
therefore to threaten and challenge the
west and that's how you end up with a
cold war M because people in the west
some of them were so enamored with their
own vision of Utopia that they would
give the most destructive weapon in the
history of the world to one of the most
evil men in the 20th century because
they believed in this collectivist
vision and they were useful idiots do
not be a useful idiot do not violate
your own moral code for anyone for
anything that's what I say to people in
the west how do you come up with a moral
code
well you're going old Jordan Peterson on
me because when he had me on his podcast
we had a three-hour conversation about
God I listened to it yeah yeah and it it
was difficult
because the flippant and obvious answer
is it's what I learned from my parents
it's what I learned from the books I
read it's from I learned from the
society in which I lived from the movies
I watched and what I the
residual
um the residual thing that I got out of
that
um Jordan Peterson will probably tell
you it's religion you know other people
will tell you something else I don't
have that answer I wish I did do you
think we live in a time where you have
to Cobble one together I've had to
Cobble one together yeah yeah have you
yes right
so that's kind of wor worrying in in
some ways I think it's part of why we're
at where we're at that's that's I think
that's what we're talking about
exactly but I also think a moral code
it's not always true because a moral
code will sometimes require you to jump
in front of a tank but generally
speaking a moral code is a good
long-term strategy because it is a way
of relating to other people and to
reality that is more effective than
others this is one of the things that I
find so funny when people say to me oh
Constantine you're so brave for speaking
out about these I actually believe that
you believe that yeah it's one of the
reasons I wanted to have you
on okay well what I say to those people
are you [ __ ]
mental what are you talking
about what are you talking about how is
a brave my ancestors starve to death in
the
gags what you think me expressing my
opinion in public is brave yeah why
that's Insanity there's nothing Brave
about it it's my duty to say what I
think if I think that something is wrong
isn't it yes so why is that brave uh
just because something is right doesn't
mean that it's not doesn't demand
courage okay how does it demand courage
oo that's interesting this doesn't feel
like you could possibly be asking me
that question I love it we we are
equally thinking the other person is
absolutely out of their minds okay so uh
here's how I look at your life you are
you are whip it smart man and you are
really articulate and you could make a
real living even in the Soviet Union if
you just like turned a part of your
brain off that was like I'm either never
going to talk about these or I'm only
going to talk about them when I'm at
home and I will use a system to my
advantage I will work my way up which
You' be very easily be able to do uh
because you can outthink people so I
have a feeling if you had just a little
evil in you you could get people to
think things were their ideas that were
clearly yours uh you would manipulate
the [ __ ] out of them you would rise to a
position of power and so you could do
all of that and now it would require you
to set aside your moral compass or not
have one or adopt one out of convenience
which I I unfortunately think humans are
all too capable of doing so the fact
that you don't do any of that the fact
that you um are in a western country in
a moment where people really get a
certain
religious emotional um righteousness out
of tearing down wrong think and the
wrong people and it makes them feel like
they have done something good and it's a
a sugar version of moral virtue but it's
still like something it gives him a rush
and
so now look you're not dumb so you've
made you've made a a good living out of
doing that and I think your Channel's
only going to get bigger and bigger and
bigger but
um be in I'll say I'll say in a single
sense why to me it's you seem Brave uh
you are a contrarian you don't mind the
conflict you actually posted a hilarious
photo of you maybe it was a video I
can't remember on Twitter it was you
with a machine gun and you said uh uh
it's like getting ready to open Twitter
in the morning yeah exactly exactly and
I was like that's [ __ ] hilarious and
then yeah I'm not going to do that
because I hate that and my audience this
may not seem as weird to you because
this the only time we sat down across
from each other my audience is going to
find this episode very weird oh are they
I've never done an episode like this
ever have you not ever oh wow so wa you
should have told me I would have gone
easy on them no this is great I love it
like I I will I would have lit a candle
you know did a little stroking you know
very kind no no no no need but it's um
so anyway I when I see people that are
just completely unafraid to roll up to
Twitter with the machine gun in hand I'm
like all right you you say what you
believe in you're standing for something
I think it's what should I be afraid of
this is what I done understand what what
is it that I'm supposed to be afraid of
a bunch of people I don't know and don't
respect on a social media platform where
they don't even show your their face or
name saying things about me no you
should fear what's happening to Jordan
Peterson he said he's in the middle of
10 lawsuits as somebody that's been in
the middle of lawsuits let me tell you
what a toll they take on you and maybe
I'm too stupid and not brave maybe
that's what's going on I don't think
you're stupid but you might be naive to
something that is entirely possible and
as you crack it'll be interesting to see
what happens to you when you crack a
million Subs on YouTube it starts to get
different real fast yeah and what's
happening with Jordan where he's with
the whole bill
c16 which I can think of no hotter like
that's the nuclear core and he came to
prominence by latching on to the nuclear
core and he has said in his very Jordan
Peterson way
that um I if you arrest me I will uh if
you give me a fine I will refuse to pay
it if you put me in jail I will go on a
hunger strike and I actually think he
means it I think he's so [ __ ]
stubborn that he actually will and in
the goog archipelago there's a great
section from Soldier niton where he says
it's really interesting people come in
you get tortured Everybody Breaks
actually that's not true not everybody
breaks and the people that are so IDE
ologic like convicted they they will let
you kill them and they're all women and
I was like that is [ __ ] hilarious
going back to what you were saying about
men and women being different and I just
thought that's my wife and that's Jordan
Peterson which he has said I have a more
feminine temperament like he just will
get something in his head and it
apparently no matter the amount of pain
that rains down on that man he just
keeps going and that doesn't look fun to
me his life does not look fun to me
but I
believe you know Jordan isn't perfect
he's a man clearly and by the way I
think he's amazing but holy [ __ ] uh does
he sometimes say things and I'm like
Jordan are you trying to make your life
suck like that's a really dumb way to
say
that but if we come back to the very
beginning of our conversation which is
about meaning and
fulfillment I couldn't be fulfilled
using my whatever you're very kind about
my intelligence and everything else
using that for things I I
fundamentally I think are wrong mhm
right so that reads as Brave PS no what
that reads as is not having a choice
doesn't read as Brave to you I get that
I hear you but I don't have a choice
bravery is when you're like well I could
do this I could do that I'll do this I
don't really feel like I have a choice I
feel like I I you know it's weird that I
I have a background that's quite unusual
that is perfectly fitted to the cultural
moment of at the moment which is I I was
born in the Soviet Union I speak Russian
and English I understand both cultures I
can articulate myself pretty well I grew
up in Britain so I fit in that culture I
can see it as an outsider and likewise
in
America um you know I can make things
funny if I need to I can be serious if I
need to like it's a it's a skill set and
a background that not many people have
so what choice do I have would you be a
in Russia yes yeah see [ __ ] do you know
uh my whole family were dissidents in
Russia so like it's it's not it's not a
new thing that is very interesting
that's actually one of the things that I
wrote a piece on my substack when my son
was born um uh and I talked about a lot
of this you
know we come from generations of people
who who were killed for their beliefs M
I'm not going to dishonor them
I I'll say it again from where I'm
sitting that's
Brave I want to think that I would be as
tough I don't know if I'd be a dissident
in Russia that's just the honest answer
and it doesn't make me feel good about
myself but and the story I will tell
myself tonight is going to be that I
would work in the
underground but I wouldn't be I think
her name is Nadia from [ __ ] Riot no
[ __ ] way and I I have met her and had
her to the house and I was just like
what the [ __ ] were you doing like that
was my impulse it was just like uh you
know they kill people for doing that so
yeah I'm I I am terrified that I could
ever become the useful idiot I am
terrified that I will get tested by life
and come out a
coward uh so I do I mean the whole
reason that I have ch CH the tenor of my
show over the last 3 years is to not
feel like a
coward uh but I don't know that I'd be a
dissident in Russia I don't know that I
would you know what I think the truth is
that nobody
does you don't know who you are until
you're in that moment I I might turn out
to be a little [ __ ] if I if I if I go
back to Russia which I don't for
precisely the reasons that we've
discussed um I don't think you do know
that I don't think anyone does
um but my point is and and this is it's
not a self-obsessed conversation I'm
just I don't understand why people keep
saying this to me the the things that
I'm saying are reasonable
things uh I do my best to articulate
them in a way that people can hear
sometimes I fail of course and sometimes
just like Jordan Peterson I'm human
right so I say things that piss people
off
and uh I'm surrounded by people who give
me advice on how to say them better for
which grateful uh and one of the things
that really I found very positive
particularly after the oord speech that
I did I get very famous people from the
left reaching out to me now and going
can we talk how about this can we
discuss this giving me advice too and
going look if you want to you know we
can see that in your speech you were
trying to reach the other side well if
you do here's a way that you might want
to phrase this right I see that as
reassurance I see that as as a sign of
that I'm doing the right
thing but I don't really understand what
what this is that I'm supposed to fear
you know okay I don't know why Jordan is
in 10 lawsuits but do do do I think that
I need to be probably not you know um I
haven't made a massive living out of
trigonometry it's just something that
pays the bills at the moment it will get
to a point where you know it's it's
massive I look forward to that moment I
see already in the last few months what
happens as you grow mhm uh the words you
say matter more people take them more
literally more seriously and you have to
but that's a it's an exciting challenge
isn't
it and you know I remember it's a moment
that stuck with me when I was a kid um I
went to a boarding school uh and so we
rarely encountered the parents of the
other kids one time I was watching a
rugby game uh that my friend was playing
in and his dad was on the sideline and
we were talking about a pre a game uh an
international rugby game that had
happened a few days ago and somebody
said to him well you know there was this
player he took the final kick imagine
that pressure wow that's got to be hard
and this Dad of my friend he said that's
not that's not how you think about it
the way you think about it is imagine
how many people would love to be in the
position to have that sort of
impact and that always stayed with me
you know what a privilege it is you know
I've just spent her a long you know
before we sat down and people would
think I'm sucking up to you but we sat
down we were talking about uh various
stuff and one of them was uh my business
trigonometry you know and I could see
within seconds that you've got like one
of the most incredible mindsets about
that stuff that I've ever encountered
and I get to sit here and speak with you
for
hours where's The Bravery come on
man tens of thousands of your countrymen
many of whom are still alive stormed the
beaches of Normandy come on come on more
people need to say what they think and
it's not that scary it's not that hard
and by the way if more people did it it
would be a lot less scary for everybody
and that's why you know I I came here
from Bill Mah show Bill Mah is doing
exactly what he should be he's using his
voice to say enough enough of this
craziness and guess what nothing happens
especially if you're a multi-millionaire
Hollywood celebrity nothing happens and
guess what his audience is now filled
people who were clapping points that I
was making right that's what happens
when people speak up so let's the reason
I resist so much this label of Brave is
not some personal thing I just think it
I'm not saying it's true in your case
I'm not saying it's true in other
people's cases but a lot of people want
to push that bravery onto me so they
don't have to do anything so they can
say well I'm not as Brave I'm going to
sit here and say nothing well it doesn't
take any courage really it just takes
principles dude this has been so fun
where can people follow you I'm at
Constantin kissen everywhere the YouTube
channel is trigonometry and the book is
an immigrants love letter to the West
everybody if you haven't already be sure
to subscribe and until next time my
friends be legendary take care peace
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