Kind: captions
Language: en
let me just ask one question is cause
and effect real outside of the headset
I think inside
headset no so we have a useful fiction
inside the headset you don't think
there's cause and effect right well we
have the appearance of cause and effect
right so if I hit the the cue ball and
it hits the eight ball into the corner
pocket it looks like the cue ball caused
the eight ball to Green into the corner
pocket yes and that all works but it's a
fiction of causality in the old video
game of pong you have these little
paddles and this ball and you hit and it
looks like the paddle is causing the
ball and and the fiction of causality is
good enough that you can play a game you
can actually figure out how to put maybe
a little spin on it and so forth or in
you know more more advanced games like
you know virtual reality or games or you
know like Grand Theft Auto you have a
nice fiction of causality I turn the
wheel to the left my car goes to the
left turn the wheel to the right but
it's all a fiction the wheel has no
causal powers
the gas pedal has no causal Powers but
it's a useful fiction Evolution
I don't know that that's true so think
about
okay a system was created let's let's
take the analogy of Grand Theft Auto so
a system is created such that it awaits
input from your your control pad
whatever that control pad may be now
admittedly my control pad I press it an
electrical signal is sent to something
that turns on or off or opens or closes
or whatever and then a whole Cascade of
things happens but it it is I mean you
could even Trace back the causality to I
ate something that gave me the ability
to create ATP which gave me the ability
to generate electricity which gave me
the ability to fire a muscle which gave
me the ability to press a button which
triggered this electrical chain reaction
that caused something to happen on the
screen but it it there is a chain of
causality in the headset there is a
chain of causality in the headset like
even even though it is the perception is
that you know I'm uh turning in the act
of actually just moving that thing it
makes it turn so I get that that isn't
happening but it does create this chain
reaction that can be in the headset
understood right and so there I disagree
so if you look for example in a VR
version of it where you see your virtual
hands holding a virtual steering wheel
yep
there's no feedback from the screen to
the computer
uh there's no feedback from the screen
to the computer but there is feedback
like if you think about VR so but so
there is a there is a real cause and
effect but it's not what we see in the
headset on the headset it looks like the
wheel that I'm seeing in the headset in
the VR headset is what's causing the car
yes but I am typically in VR I would be
mapping my real hands either by holding
a controller or by having cameras well
absolutely so I'm mapping my hands my
hands do a movement and this program is
programmed to wait for the input from
the movement of my hands to then trigger
that sequence that I just listed before
so there is a cause and effect yep but
but notice it's not from the things that
you're literally seeing in the headset I
agree with that but but there there
still is a chain of cause and effect
absolutely because when you say that it
is an illusion of the eight ball hitting
the things like that doesn't seem true
well within the construct of the headset
I'm saying right right well so maybe
another example might help on this so
when you like drag your icon you've
written a email and it's the icon is
blue in the middle of your screen you
drag it to the trash can yep you you are
using say a mouse or a touchpad and and
in so in this analogy that would be like
the real cause and effect but if you
said but it's really the motion of the
icon on the screen to the trash can
that's causing the file to be deleted
that's just an illusion of causality
right the there's no feedback from the
pixels of the screen into the computer
and that's what I mean everything inside
space and time is like seeing the icons
on your desktop things move around on
your desktop but it's due to something
like your you know joystick or something
else but the headset
since the headset is all of space and
time what that means is that I'm saying
that everything inside space-time is
part of that fictional content I now get
what you're saying so in the in the
headset that perception is illusion and
I was dragging a sort of back and forth
between but it's good I mean that's so
very very good now take me outside does
cause and effect exist if time doesn't
exist so so two answers and they'll get
to the death question I think in the
realm of conscious agents there is a
notion of cause and effect but it boils
down to a notion of free will that seems
to be one of the key Notions of cause in
in this in quantum mechanics by the way
I should point out that
they when you do Quantum computations
normally in normal computations there is
a causal order if you do this multiply
and then an add that order is important
if you do the ADD and then the multiply
you get a different answer right the
order the causal orders but it turns out
in quantum mechanics you can do a you
can get rid of causal order when you do
your computation you can have a
superposition of
you know multiply followed by add with
ADD followed by multiply both orders so
you have a superposition of the causal
order and it's a theorem that in general
you'll be faster you'll be more
efficient if you let go of causality in
space time
and it turns out it's actually been done
when you build these things and let go
of causality in space-time you tap you
tap into greater efficiency
so
when you let go of space time you're
also letting go when space time is
doomed means also that everything that
we believed to be causality in
space-time was just a very useful
fiction in our headset just like the
fictions in various VR games that we
play it's a useful fiction lets us play
the game
um there is an underlying causal order
and we're
arbitrarily ignorant about what that
causal order is now about death
I don't know but here's an here's an
interesting idea
suppose you go to a VR arcade with some
friends to play Virtual volleyball
and you put on your headset and bodysuit
and you're on a you know a
like a beach volleyball scene palm trees
and sand internet and you're playing VR
volleyball for a while then one of your
friends you know says I'm
thirsty on you to drink he takes off his
headset and bodies to to go get a drink
his Avatar sits lifeless on the sand it
collapses on the sand it looks within
the VR headset within the game as though
he's dead
but he's his Consciousness is not ceased
he's merely stepped out of that
interface all right now we're in what
I'll call the Phineas gauge problem okay
so once so Phineas Gage for those that
don't know it was railroad worker one of
the most famous examples in Neuroscience
he's hitting a tamping rod it's like a
three foot Rod thicker than your thumb
and it shoots up through his jaw and out
the top of his head taking if I remember
right a teacups worth of brain matter
which seems impossible but never loses
Consciousness but they say he's forever
different right different and he used to
be like super sweet and he was one of
the best workers and then he becomes
this belligerent [ __ ] and he can't
hold a job right so I will say that's
that is the so using this notion of the
headset or the umvelt it's like once you
alter the way that his brain works and
I'm fully willing to accept that this is
a problem only inside of the headset but
once you alter that function within the
headset he's fundamentally different now
if the headset is is what I'll call the
umvelt it's our interpretation of the
stimuli once he goes takes the headset
off the inter now we're into transistors
diodes electrical gravity or oh God I
may have trip to sepal gravity but
everything's shy of that one
um now you have he the experience of
that person would be fundamentally
different I would be fundamentally
different because I'm no longer
experiencing things through the lens of
my brain essentially right so while
I it would seem to me that there is no
way around the fact that in the game
homie is dead and so or lifeless to use
your example so
since that's the only thing that I want
to relate to that person through my
headset right that's what I'm used to
that's where the emotion lies and then
now once I step outside even emotion
would be called in question almost
certainly in fact definitively in your
explanation the way that I process
emotions it would just be unrecognizable
outside because I no longer have the
brain I no longer have all of those
things interesting you said quite
possibly right so there is a possibility
to you that outside the headset it's
close to what we experience inside right
see so for me
um it's going to be a matter of
following the math on this so
the theory of conscious agents itself
doesn't require an agent to have a self
so
meaning it can shatter into a bunch of
little pieces well that that a self is
something that a network of conscious
agents has to construct
certainly the Borg
it would be like an interface
representation okay so my what I call
myself
is on this kind of view no less a
construction than space and time
and so it's not clear to me how much of
that construction Will Survive death
will meaning taking off the headset
two possibly very different things well
it looks for for people who still had
the headset on it would be interesting
it looks to them like death but for the
person who's actually having the headset
taken off maybe it looks like what some
people describe with psychedelic
experiences or near-death experiences
and and and so forth or or you know like
really extreme five
DMT your DMT experiences and so forth
like these are things I want to explore
so at this point I I'll have to say you
know
not only you know I'm likely to be wrong
I'm still trying to figure out what the
ideas are that I would want to put on
the tables that are wrong so but the
theory of Consciousness that I have
right now doesn't require conscious
agents to have a self to have memories
to have
the ability to learn or anything like
that so networks of conscious agents
construct selves they construct memories
they construct emo you know patterns of
Logics of emotions and so forth it's
going to be very interesting to to ask
the question about how much when you
know my parents die recently right so
you know it's very very it's very very
difficult right and
so we all would like to think that there
is
some way to have contact with a person
anyway if you're a physicalist of course
that's out of the question right if your
Consciousness is nothing
above and beyond brain activity
then when brain activity ceases there's
no consciousness and Destroy it's very
very clear in the third conscious agents
it's quite possible that that yourself
dissolves
but the conscious agents it seems to me
will still be conscious agents they've
just maybe dissolved a particular
data structure that they created the
space-time data structure with a
particular personality and memories and
so forth so basically you're saying if I
can just put different words around that
to make sure that I understand
the the conscious ages coming together
to form a person are a data structure
that will they form the person as a data
structure so everything that I believe
about me
is very different than what I believe
when I was five and and I didn't believe
anything when I was maybe one and so
I've over the years the Decades of my
life I've put together this story of I'm
myself this is sort of an idea that some
of my physicalist colleagues have said
like Dan Dennett a self is a story that
we weave it's a narrative that we give
maybe there's something to that whereas
where I wouldn't go with Dan on you know
and he's a wonderful guy he's brilliant
but you know we are it's okay to
disagree right he would say that you
know there's nothing but the brain
activity and the narratives that it
creates and I'm saying well I like the
idea of the narratives but but the
Consciousness is the fundamental reality
I have to let go of physicalism because
of evolution of natural selection
and so maybe consciousnesses won't keep
the narratives maybe they will I have
some of my colleagues who are working
with me who think um you know that we
will keep the narratives that we will
keep that sense of self but my colleague
who thinks that doesn't have any
mathematics to support it and so for for
me on the one hand of course I'm really
open to all the different ideas but as a
scientist if I can't put it precisely in
math
I don't know what I'm talking about yet
I mean you and that's what you find is
unless you can make it absolutely
precise most of the time we think we
know what we're talking about and when
we make it precisely we realize oh okay
no I was maybe in the neighborhood but I
didn't really know what I was talking
about that's what mathematics really
comes back and teaches you and that's
the thing about a really good scientific
theory
once you write it down you become a
student of your theory like so Einstein
when he wrote down the equation of
general relativity
he had the big idea
falling in an elevator
you would feel weightless
big big idea
if it was free fall and elevator and he
took him eight years to take that idea
and what he called the equivalence
principle and turned it into the
equation of general relativity he wrote
it down took him eight years hard hard
work to take your intuition and go oh no
my intuition what is what do I really
mean by that it took him eight years man
he was Einstein right right for the rest
of us I mean if Einstein's ideas aren't
that quite precise it'd take him eight
years to get it so precise that he knows
exactly what he meant
that's what that's what I'm talking
about so he writes down the equation a
year later
a guy named schwartzelda who's in the
front lines of World War One
is solving Einstein's equations on the
front lines and he he solves equations
and he discovers black holes
and he writes back to eisenesses as your
theory says there are black holes
Einstein didn't know that he didn't
believe it he spent decades just
disbelieving it his equations were right
Einstein was wrong
the equations become smarter than the
genius who wrote them down and that's
another reason why we do these
mathematical models of science
we take our intuitions it might take us
a decade
to take our intuitions and actually
figure out what we really were thinking
and get them so precise that we say oh
that's the only logically consistent way
of stating what I thought I was trying
to think
and once you've put it down there then
all of a sudden you become a student
that thing that you've written down
is going to teach you and that's what I
have with this theory of conscious
agents when I wrote it down I had no
idea
about a number of things I didn't know
that agents could combine it was a
friend of mine who pointed that out to
me so agents can combine and also that
that a weird thing that it predicts is
that our free choices are not part of
our conscious experiences you can't
directly experience your own free
choices you can experience that you
chose but you can never actually
experience yourself
choosing
why well it's really quite interesting
you can experience like if if I go you
know here's there's chocolate and
vanilla
I'm going to choose between chocolate
and vanilla
well I just chose chocolate but how did
I do that well I had some deliberation
process but when I finally it I can all
I can do is see myself reaching for the
chocolate or the vanilla and I can see
my cogitation processes but but the but
isn't that all in the headset
all that I'm seeing is in the headset
that's right so I'm seeing so by the way
I only know my actions
through my headset I actually don't know
what I'm doing when I reach out and grab
something
I don't know what I'm doing in objective
reality in the realm of conscious agents
how does all of this play out in your
real life
and I've heard you talk about that there
are moments where you have I'm sort of
putting words in your mouth but almost a
meditative experience where you
transcend the notion of self
um
how so
how do you stay so enthusiastic about
this for so long when it seems like I
mean really really at a deep [ __ ]
level man as a human experience this
just all feels so real
right right
well
I wouldn't say that I transcend
the self
but I what I
do get it once in a while is a glimpse
that oh
this is just a headset I actually feel
it that I'm just rendering this most of
us feel like space just exists I'm stuck
inside Space there's this big stage I'm
on the stage
it's very different I think by the way
the next generation will probably get
this much easier those who have just
been raised spending a lot of time in
vrs that are as compelling and as
immersive as everyday life it's going to
be just sort of obvious you take your
headset off and go it's a no-brainer to
think well this is just a headset too
and to just sort of be there so I think
that it'll it'll be
for the Next Generation the fact that
I'm having a hard time about it we're
thinking about it this way and imagining
it experientially will just be sort of
an artifact of the technology I grew up
with if I grew up with vrs that were
really good as opposed to the stuff that
we grew up with which is not that good
then it would just be sort of obvious
you do it when you're young enough it's
just this obvious that yeah I'm just
seeing a VR headset too because by the
way here's one way to think about it if
you close your eyes
you just see sort of gray right modeled
gray in front of you so it looks it
doesn't look like nothing it looks like
model gray but what is it like
backwards back through your head when
you close your eyes well it's not model
gray it's nothing
and it's really the first time you
really if you close your eyes and
experience that yeah what is it like in
front of me yeah it's just gray sort of
model gray what is it like behind me
absolutely nothing that's the headset
you only have a headset of space time in
front there is no headset behind now you
have a not a visual headset now you have
this set I can put my hands back there
and do stuff so I so I have this but
it's all a creation it's all and so I do
get glimpses of that
once in a while
but there were no now put on the natural
selection language right so I have to
pick the language of the science that I
want to use you know because I don't
have a better language in some sense for
discussing this Evolution
um there were no selection pressures for
us to see the truth
and so there were no selection pressures
for us to not take space-time is the
truth
and so we do Piaget tells us you know
when
we begin to take objects as real as we
have the we you know these aren't just
like little data structures that you
create that they really exist all the
time he called it object permanence and
Piaget said you know when a kid is about
17 months 16 or 17 months of age they
don't have object pronounce permanence
you take a little baby doll put in front
of a child to play with it you put put
it behind the pillow if they're 16
months old they just doesn't it doesn't
exist said and then but at 18 months now
they go and crawl around and try to get
the object the baby doll out of the
behind the pillow later experiments
showed maybe down to three or four
months but the point is
these experiments show that we're
programmed
now I'm using the evolution language
we're programmed by natural selection to
buy into the illusion that objects exist
even when they're not perceived object
permanence when we're three or four
months old
we're not rational it's being done to us
without our permission and so by the
time we come to the Age of Reason
it's it's the water that we we don't
know that we're wet it's the water we've
been swimming in all of our life we just
have been programmed to take this as the
reality
I took it for the reality it was only
because I couldn't solve certain
problems like the problem of
Consciousness and it was only because
when I looked at Evolution it began to
tell me space-time is not the reality it
cannot be it's the wrong language it
must be only like a headset that I was
going holy I mean I still remember the
first time I realized
this must be just a headset I had to sit
down it was such I mean I was a grown
adult I was like I was around 30 years
old or something like that
first time I realized this it was such a
shock I had to sit down everything that
I believed all of a sudden disappeared
but of course the next moment I was
again visually believing I'm in reality
I'm seeing the truth so the programming
is there but ever since that that moment
when it was the math
that that did it to me so what do you
think created math
very interesting question
my own
thinking in terms of this idea that
Consciousness is fundamental and
conscious agents are fundamental
when we actually study consciousness
and there's been a scientific study of
Consciousness since 1860 it's called the
field of psychophysics there was a guy
named Gustav fechner who started the
whole field and a lot of my research has
been in psychophysics where we literally
get mathematical models of conscious
experiences and we test people very very
carefully in the lab
we find that mathematical experience
that conscious experiences are
mathematically structured while
experience of this water bottle
the mathematics is unbelievable there
are you can write down differential
geometry you reflectance functions that
means the mathematics is incredible
it's true of all of our conscious
experience of everywhere we look
conscious experience we it seems so
squishy it goes through your fingers how
can you there's mathematics so the way I
think about math and experience is that
mathematics is like the bones of the
living conscious experience they're not
they can't be divorced from each other
there's more to experience than just
math
but there's not less
than math there's math and more and so
that mathematics and conscious
experiences have a deep intimate
relationship that I'm still trying to
understand but but but the empirical
evidence is quite strong I mean all the
psychophysics that people have done we
just find mathematical structure
everywhere and that's why I came back to
this girdles in completeness theorem
where where that theorem is just saying
no matter how many mathematical
structures you discover you haven't
started
there will be endless more come from
girdle
figured out how to do this so it came
from and cannot let me maybe now I'm
understanding it so
we once thought the atom was the
smallest structure and then we
discovered there's something below that
and something below that and something
below that
are you saying outside of the headset
there's just no end to the something
below that
that's right
interesting that's right
that's right that and and this is book
girdle's result is that there is no end
to the mathematical structure so it is
the incompleteness theorem that you will
never be able to complete it you'll
never be able to get to sort of bae oh
God I'm going to put words in your mouth
base reality I don't know another way to
say it that's right that's what that
girdle's theorem seems to be telling us
is that no matter how complicated the
mathematics is that you know effectively
you haven't even begun yet and when you
say theorem I assume that means that
this is a math equation that girdle put
forward and not it's not girdle's Theory
it's girdle's theorem it's a theorem in
other words
it's true
that we can't ever know all mathematical
truths the truth is hitting your career
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description all right my friend back to
today's episode I don't understand math
well enough to even know what to ask
beyond that so to me where my ignorance
makes this a miracle I'm willing to
accept it just to not be abusive well
I'll just give you a quick clue about
the kind of thing that he does right in
the math in the math there are these
things called self-referential
statements that cause problems so if I
say um
this statement
is false
now it was that statement true or false
well let's let's look if the state the
statement is the statement is false well
if it's
false then it's true true right but but
what then is if it's true then it's
false that's right yeah so you get these
when you have self-reference
you get these problems that pop up you
know the so the The Barber of Seville
Cuts all and only the hair of those who
don't cut their own hair
who cuts the hair of the Barbara Seville
right all these kinds of things so
girdle was able to take this kind of
thing and and make mathematical
statements self-referential and he was
able to create a sentence that said that
that a statement in mathematics that
says this sentence is true within the
system but can't be proved
so he was able to construct that
that's why so he actually has a theorem
so he proves and and then he shows that
no matter so if even if you had that
sentence in there'll be a new sentence
that's self-referential that and so what
he shows by by this this kind of
structure of course I'm the the true
theorem and the true proof is is
incredible there's girdle numbers it's
you have to be not just a mathematian
you know to be a brilliant mathematician
a logician to even understand it so so
it's it's very very few people who
actually understand but every time you
quote unquote solve it it's
self-referential again that's right it's
the self-reference that's the key so it
just so there's not in complete magic I
want to let you know that based on this
notion of a self-referential statement
but but the bottom line is it shows that
there's an endless
in principle endless possibility of
exploration of mathematical structure
and and since I just mentioned this
suggested like almost give it a silly
answer it's the the mathematical
equation is what's below math and the
answer is math is structure all the way
down forever forever forever but if
Consciousness is fundamental that means
that there's endless conscious structure
endless Consciousness I feel like that's
just something that says we don't
[ __ ] understand like that to me quite
frankly is as sort of I just have to
accept it as Turtles all the way down
saying math all the way down our
Consciousness all the way down is the
same as saying Turtles all the way down
there's just literally no difference in
my limited mind right so this is where
we're going to have to come with every
scientific theory right every scientific
theory will have some set of Miracles
and that's that bothers me as much as it
bothers you yeah I don't like it but I
so when I bump up against that I take a
pretty and I don't know maybe this is
stupid enlighten me but here's
here's where I come up so I will
routinely be asked if I believe in God
and the answer is no I don't believe in
God in any of the ways that people mean
when they say God but there is so
obviously something that I don't
understand that it is just self-evident
to me you would use the language and
maybe rightly so that it this is a
headset and so you have an intuitive
sense that there's something beyond the
headset and you have no idea what it is
and therefore you just say there is
something I don't understand right so
um even here's the thing that used to
[ __ ] with me as a little kid
the universe is expanding expanding into
what when you build a house you build it
on land right so the land is there the
land is on the planet so it's like
there's this sense of
um to for it to expand it has to expand
into something therefore something had
to exist so it's very easy for me to
just go yep there's something here I
don't understand the fact that um
general relativity and quantum mechanics
don't play well together yep there's
something I don't understand like I am I
am very okay with just going and there's
something I don't understand it's it's
the the part that gets hard for me is
the it's math all the way down where
it's it's no longer an acknowledgment of
this is something we just don't
understand and it's saying and now
believe that it's math all the way down
and I don't know that it really matters
to be honest but that that's where I
always bump and go well yeah there are
two big camps on this one is that we
invent math and the other is we discover
it right so when a new theorem is
published did the person discover it or
did they invent it right that's that's
one of the big questions if if isn't it
self-evident that it has to be
discovered well but if if it is
discovered
then girdle
girdles incompleteness theorem says it
is math all the way down
right so that's that's
the thing but if it's discovered I'm
sorry if it's invented then that points
at us and says who who is this
Discoverer who is this inventor that's
doing all this so I mean so
and it's really important for everybody
to understand that that every scientific
theories we said earlier
stops explanation stops there's going to
be some place where we say grant me this
please and if you grant me this then I
will explain everything else like
Einstein says grant me space and time if
you grant me space and time I will write
down these mathematics and then it turns
out there's black holes and they're all
interesting stuff we can do GPS because
of Einstein's theory of special relative
general relativity it gives you all this
but we are granting space and time now
someone else like there's a guy named
Seth Lloyd who says okay I'm not going
to Grant you space-time I'll start with
Quantum bits and Quantum Gates outside
of space and time it's just abstract
quantum computational stuff and I can
show you how to boot up space time
general relativity from Quantum bits and
Quantum Gates the curvature of General
relativistic space time has to do with
the action of the gates and so forth
so he's no longer assuming space-time
he's explaining it but now he's asking
for a different Miracle please grant me
Quantum bits and Quantum Gates now you
can imagine someone going well now I'm
going to do better than Seth Lloyd I'm
going to explain I'm going to do
something deeper than Quantum bits and
Quantum case that's perhaps what what
you need it is doing it it you know
Princeton
so maybe he'll get quantum mechanics
emerging from something deeper but he
will then say grant me what he's asking
for is the amplitohedron and some other
structures like that so if you grant me
this amplitohedron I can give you space
time and quantum mechanics and and so
forth so so that's the nature of
explanation and I don't I'm still having
to come to terms with that I would like
to have a theory of everything and I can
only have a theory of everything except
these assumptions for my theory and
those assumptions are my Miracles and so
at the foundation of every scientific
theory there's this moment of humility
explanation stops here
it also stops one other remarkable place
whenever in our Theory we have a
probability
that can't be reduced
by greater knowledge right so in a
Newtonian world if I flip a coin
in principle if I knew in detail
the mass of the coin and its
distribution and exactly how I flipped
it I could tell you heads or tails with
probability one
but I don't know the initial conditions
well enough and so I have to give you a
probability of a half that's a
subjective probability epistemic
probability but suppose
no matter there's a probability that no
matter how much I know
the probability can't completely go away
then that's no longer epistemic there's
something more interesting going on
this was the debate between bore and
Einstein about quantum mechanics there
are probabilities that come up there
Einstein was saying those probabilities
are just our lack of knowledge there's
no God doesn't really play dice there's
no fundamental probability going on
there boar said no no you don't tell God
what to do these are not epistemic
probabilities these probabilities cannot
be reduced period their probabilities
for everyone including God metaphorical
God
one thing I wanted to ask you that came
to me when I was reading is
the double slit experiment is one of the
weirdest thing in physics for me that it
really messes with me so for people not
familiar with the double slit experiment
you take a single Photon you shoot it
through a slit and if you're not
measuring it as it happens on the sort
of back wall you would see like a bullet
Mark right so you fire a single bullet
it goes through the slit and it hits the
wall if you
uh sorry that's if you watch it if you
don't measure it then it goes through
like a wave and you get an interference
pattern on the back you can put another
slit and if you're watching it it goes
through one slit if you're not watching
it then it goes through both slits like
a wave that always just seems so weird
but if we well in fact I'll I'll ask
does your hypothesis about Consciousness
address the issue of the double slit
experiment yes so it will come out I
believe that what those experiments are
showing us is that if we assume that
everything is happening in space and
time and that space time is the
fundamental reality then we're going to
be confused
what we're seeing is space time is just
a visualization tool we're using for
things that are happening outside of
space and time and so they're not
constrained to travel through space and
time
absolutely not constrained we're
constrained to see them as though
they're traveling through space and time
and that's why quantum mechanics looks
so weird but why does
um observing or not observing change its
state
because we're creating reality
as we render it so I was wondering if
this is the look of the Moon not look at
the Moon exactly right the moon does the
in fact Einstein asked one of his
colleagues when they were walking said
do you really believe the moon doesn't
exist or only exists when someone looks
doesn't exist otherwise he was talking
about quantum mechanics and
my interpretational quantum mechanics is
exactly that that that space time itself
doesn't exist when it's not observed and
therefore the particles inside
space-time I don't think you need to
talk about the double slit experiment
doesn't that so it potentially let me
ask is that potentially like a a proof
of your theory
well
unfortunately there are no proofs in
science
there you
every theory has lots of hypotheses and
auxiliary facts and assumptions and so
forth and if if your theory doesn't come
out quite right
you don't know what went wrong in it and
also
um
even if every experiment that you've
done is compatible with your theory
maybe you just haven't been smart enough
to think of the experiment that will
take it down so so so no real serious
scientists would say that any scientific
theory has been proved
does it point the right direction though
it's like you you bring up a lot of
examples but that's not one right is
there a reason is there a hole in that
one already that you see or because to
me that that is some compelling [ __ ]
like hey you want to wonder or you want
to know if the moon exists when you look
at it or if it's garbage Bend I keep
forgetting your garbage collected
garbage garbage collected when you look
away boom double slit experiment well so
the double slit experiment is completely
compatible with what I'm saying the
reason I don't take it as a proof is
because there are some physicalists who
have the Multiverse or many worlds
interpretations of many world's
interpretations so Hugh Everett for
example so what these guys will say is
that um to really understand
superposition and all these weird
Quantum things you have to realize that
whenever you make a measurement whole
new universes spin off and all possible
states that are allowed by the quantum
State function the wave function
um are in are true in some some universe
and so many
serious physicists believe in in the
many worlds interpretation and related
but but distinct thing of the Multiverse
which is a slightly a different thing
they think that there are multiverses
and so
what what is
what is true
is that local realism is false
so local realism is the claim that
objects in space-time like say a proton
have definite values of their properties
like position momentum and spin definite
values
um even when they're not observed
and there's two parts that's the first
part and that they have influences that
propagate no faster than the speed of
light
we have very very good evidence to say
if if we know anything we know that
local realism is false
but that leaves open whether it's the
locality that's false things
you can imagine things having problem
influences faster than the speed of
light so a guy named you know David Baum
has a theory in which things have
influences faster than the speed of
light
or whether it's realism that's false
that which is what I'm claiming that
realism is false that
a particle doesn't have a position or a
momentum or a spin when it's not
observed because
you create it as a headset element When
You observe so that's why I say that we
know that local realism is false I claim
that's the realism that's false but
there are some who can claim it's the
locality right right yeah I would say
that yeah I would agree I would say that
there's a point in which a new portal
in our interfaces is opened up into
Consciousness so so for example I mean I
have a portal into Tom's Consciousness
it's it's it's not
perfect it's fallible but it's real I
can guess if you're interested I can
guess if you're you know if you're
hurting or I can guess it's a but it's a
genuine portal into your Consciousness
and but but of course
my experience is not your Consciousness
your Consciousness is is separate and so
our interface does give us genuine
portals into the consciousness of others
my cat I have less access my amounts
even less and uh you know microbe my
interface has given up my portal has
become really dumb it's not because
there's no consciousness out there is
that my portal is is got too much noise
or it was just not opened up to it so so
yes when we have babies
we are in a way that we don't understand
opening new portals into the realm of
Consciousness I so I want to understand
that it's it's very much like if someone
is building something in Minecraft and
you know they put things together
but if if you're really inquisitive
you'd like to know what was really going
on inside the computer
that looks like me building this thing
that I see in my Minecraft world and
that's that's what I want to do so in
Minecraft there are different things
that are in some sense portals to a
whole bunch of code that's going on in
the computer that's allowing me to build
this stuff okay let me start making some
guesses here on where you're going so
I'm assuming that you're chasing this
problem because ultimately you want to
be able to figure out hey guys guess
what space time is fundamentally the
wrong way to look at it and if we get
the right way to look at it we will have
all just an avalanche of insights may be
usable in the way that Quantum
discoveries have given birth to Modern
Life most people don't put two and two
together they just think uh the you know
maybe the atomic bomb or something like
that but that there's real your cell
phones GPS like all of it has to do with
um physics so if we can get to the the
underlying physics of whatever gives
birth to the um the simulation now we
could have a whole new app Avalanche of
insights that allow us greater
manipulation of the world or whatever it
is precisely that's driving you which
brings me back to the collider you're
paying attention to that because you if
I understand how these things explode
then I can backtrack it and understand
how they came together in the first
place which in your prediction is going
to take us outside of the simulation
into the world of Consciousness which do
you imagine that world has physics and
desires like does the the Consciousness
must have something propelling it to do
things
right the the only idea I've got there
is this idea from girdle of just
infinite exploration that is the okay so
this is going to bring us to God here
because I feel like you've already said
this is a magic moment or a miracle
moment so something has
given the spark of desire to
Consciousness to explore girdle's
infinite like look at all the different
manifestations that Consciousness can
take and so we are all but one sort of
pop-up of a very specific kind of
Consciousness and who knows there could
be a Brazilian of these things all over
the known and unknown Universe
um right so
as we're doing that it begs the question
of in your mind is there such a thing as
God
well this gives us possibly the a chance
to have a language which for the first
time ever we might be able to formulate
a precise
hypothesis about what we mean by the
word god
and start to do science so for example
you have a hypothesis around that I well
yeah so I have a precise definition of a
conscious agent
and what one definition I could give for
God would be
um the agent which is the combination of
all
the conscious agents the single so so
suppose it turns out that mathematically
when I look at the mathematics of
conscious agents and how they combine to
form new agents suppose that the
mathematics tells me there is in some
sense always one largest agent that's
being formed I don't know if that will
be the case I don't know but but suppose
then I could say that that's God suppose
it turns out that no what's going on is
that there are many many quote unquote
maximal agents but there's no single
maximal agent and they're not identical
then that would then there it might be a
polytheism
but the nice thing about this is we
could see the word God has been used in
contradictory ways for thousands of
years by various traditions and and we
fight to the death
over a term literally that's not well
defined because your God is not the same
as my God and and it's a tragedy
um of human history that that hundreds
of millions of people have been have
died in because of
differences over what we mean by the
word God and and what I would like to
see is sort of
a humble approach to that that term
saying look no we my tradition has its
ideas your tradition has its ideas
clearly since we all disagree that most
one of us is right and possibly all of
us are wrong so why don't we
come together take all of our best ideas
and then try to sift through and here's
where science can help where we take the
ideas and try to make them precise
mathematically precise because that's
when you find out if things gel if
they're consistent or if they actually
you're talking nonsense right you you
know if you say a is true and not a is
true what you're talking nonsense right
so so can we do something like that
and
evolve
ideas about the notion of God and have a
scientific spirituality where where God
becomes something that we're we don't
assume that we know we're not dogmatic I
know what God is we're humble we say
these are the best ideas we've got so
far let's try to make them precise so we
can figure out precisely where we're
wrong and then we evolve it so so I I
see
this direction going forward the
possibility of a scientific spirituality
where
um
we
take a lot of the spiritual insights
that the spiritual Traditions the
mystical Traditions have had for
thousands of years
and we take the tools that science has
learned by studying our headset
and we use those tools to take the first
step outside the headset that the
spiritual Traditions have been telling
us look you guys are stuck in the
headset you're stuck on the headset
well they're right
but by studying the headset we got the
tools that we needed to actually step
outside the headset in a way that can be
precise and we can figure out
what we're doing and make precise
theories and so I see science and spirit
we're at this really interesting
convergence point in human history
where there's been a war between science
and spirituality in effect they've been
at odds these are non-physicalists over
here the spiritual side these are
physicalists over here the scientists
scientists have all the hard-nosed tools
it's all Woolly and imprecise over here
on the spiritual side and so they've
been at odds of each other right but now
let's take the best insights and I'm not
saying that anybody's right or wrong I'm
just saying let's take the best insights
from the spiritual conditions and be
willing to call nonsense nonsense and
take the best tools from science and
take and also call theories nonsense
that are nonsense
and try together to make precise
theories about the spiritual realm and
our position you know what are we here
for
um what is life about I mean
these deep deep questions that are all
important to us
um and see see where it goes and and
you're right I think that as we do this
we're going to understand if this idea
that there's a network of conscious
agents outside space-time and we begin
to really understand how in part it
works and how it relates to space-time
the Technologies
that we're going to get
are stunning the the analogy I would
think of is like this
again going back to Grand Theft Auto you
can imagine being someone who is a
wizard like Grand Theft Auto we all just
look in awe at what this wizard can do
and that's truly impressive but now
the software engineer comes along who
actually knows the software of the game
and he can take the gasoline out of the
tank or let the tire out of The Heirs of
the Wizard's car so now the wizard is
nothing
compared to someone who knows how the
software Works outside of Grand Theft
Auto once we get outside of space-time
we understand how this network of
conscious agent works and how space-time
is just a visualization tool
we will be in the position of that
software engineer that can actually just
give the Grand Theft Auto a wizard a
flat tire we'll be able to what he could
change the road he could change the
dimensions of the road he could make
buildings disappear he can make space
and time shift in any way he wants
that's the kind of
Pandora's Box potentially that we're
going to open up here I I uh it's both
as a scientist and a human being it's
exhilarating and scary as all get out
um
that in the wrong hands is incredible
power
yes there's so many sort of layers of
guesses between us and there but if um
yeah if people have the ability to
essentially edit the Matrix and anybody
can do it then that's gonna
certainly go into some pretty
interesting places
um before we ponder that though I want
to ask you
what do you think of Einstein's
statement that I want to know God's
thoughts everything else is just details
well there's a sense in which um
I
am very much on board with Einstein in
some sense
the attitude is I mean
who cares that there are so many kinds
of quarks and who cares that there are
so many kinds of gluons and that the
mass of the electron is such and such
and I mean
that's not what it's really about I mean
we we need to understand those things
but not for their own sake what what
Einstein and theoretical physicists are
really after is they're trying as
Einstein said I want to understand the
mind of God right I want to understand
what are the big deep principles that
would lead to the laws that have as
their consequences there are these kinds
of quirks and these kinds of gluons and
so forth so it's the deep deep insights
the same kind of thing that you and I
are chasing here when we are talking
about ideas like girdles incompleteness
theorem and girdles candy store like
these I mean even if that's not the
right idea it gives you a flavor for the
Deep kind of idea that we're after that
that we think of this could be a deep
enough idea that it could be a a guiding
principle for a lot of the details that
we see
so it's in that sense that I would would
agree completely with Einstein on that
now I think Einstein
um
was very much attached to space and time
um it seems fair yeah he he was the
perhaps the person with the most
profound original insights ever about
space and time
um I don't know if he ever let go of
space-time maybe in his later years
maybe he did I don't know but but but
most of us it's really hard
the avant-guard of physics right now are
letting go of space-time when you if you
just Google space time is doomed Google
that phrase you can find videos by Nema
arkani Hamed for example and he can tell
you exactly why state of the art
physicists today are saying space time
is doomed so the mind of God whatever it
is
is not space-time itself
it's something deeper
and but they don't know what that
something deeper is what the physicists
are doing
um because they don't have any
if they don't have any idea what's
beyond space and time what they're doing
which is really brilliant they're saying
let's take the mathematics
of the models that we do have in
space-time Quantum field Theory
gravity
let's look at that mathematics and see
that mathematics is like a light into
the dark beyond space time
can we and and they're flashing that
light into the dark as far as they can
let that light go
so they're they're trying to see what
the structure of our current theories
might tell us to guide us in our ideas
Beyond space-time but ultimately
we're going to need to make a creative
leap we're going to have to just and
this is the fun of science yo