Kind: captions
Language: en
[Music]
you have your finger on something that I
am haunted by which is that people are
lost they're scared in life they've got
a negative voice running on repeat when
they get into self-help they make no
lasting changes
whatsoever what's the answer to that and
how does the subtle art of not giving a
[ __ ] play into all this starting with
the easy questions I see yeah I hope
not well I you know a question that I've
been I've been in this industry for 15
years now and I've written thousands of
pages worth of content I've recorded
tons of videos done hundreds and
hundreds of interviews like this so most
of my career is I've existed in the
theory and I've done I did a little bit
of coaching early in my career but I've
kind of hit this point where you know
you can only talk about anxiety so many
times before you just start repeating
yourself and and so I I've kind of come
back to this question of implementation
like why do people read 12 books and
then not change any of their behaviors
why do we watch a you know 20 YouTube
videos and understand exactly what the
perfect morning routine should be and
then we sleep till 9:30 you know uh so I
I I've been trying to think of clearly
like whatever the information is not the
problem there's something about the
format that nobody has has solved yet
um I think really the only intervention
that kind of consistently
achieves behavioral change is a good
therapist over many years like that has
a high hit rate pretty much everything
else like you're batting 10 20% what is
it about therapy you think that works I
think it's the the intensity and
consistency of it and I also just think
it's you know
you're paying a hundred bucks a session
there's only so many weeks you can show
up and have the therapist basically tell
you the same thing until you're like
okay I should probably go do that
whereas like you don't have a book
you're people aren't reading the same
book week after week they're not
watching the same video week after week
or I I think maybe just having somebody
in the room like telling it to them has
more more impact in some way so back up
a little bit the problem with therapy is
it's not scalable it's expensive it's it
there's limit Limited accessibility to
uh to a large percentage of the
population um it there's bunch of
credentials you got to go to school for
years to become an accredited therapist
so I'm I've been thinking about like
what is a
way how do we solve the implementation
problem how do we make it easier for
people to implement behavioral change
whether it's through apps whether it's
through uh you know video courses you
know whatever that's kind of like become
the
problem I'm asking I'm like zeroing in
on at this stage of my career how did
you change so you've obviously had a
pretty dramatic change for anybody
that's read your book or seen the Now
movie yeah very impressive man I got to
tell you thank you uh how did you change
was it
therapy therapy was helpful so I did
therapy in my 20s for a few years and
that was helpful I think one thing that
I'm particularly good at is very good at
like changing my mind about things uh
like I don't get too attached to aspects
of my identity like it
doesn't I don't feel committed to like
oh this is how people see me so I need
to behave that way how the hell did you
pull that off I don't know I'm I'm
like we could we could dig into that
probably a combination of Nature and
nurture but um
I think I've been good throughout my
life of like being willing to look at
myself and be like who maybe I'm not an
author maybe I just like had a good book
um let me go do this other thing now um
are you doing that is that a real
conversation yeah interesting um given
how many books you sold I think people
are going to be shocked to hear that
yeah million approaching 20 million it's
it's crazy if you add them all up yeah
yeah that seems like a fair thing to do
um yeah it's I'm very proud of that and
it's a very obviously a very important
part of my life but I don't necessarily
see that as who I am right like what do
you see as who you are or do you avoid
that kind of statement I avoid that
statement interesting so that you don't
get trapped yes and
then I like to think of it as like I'm
an author right now and if at one day it
stops being useful being an author I
will stop being an author right I think
there's other identities or labels that
I I have adopted a little bit more
permanently like I'm a husband or I'm a
friend or I'm a son um like those aren't
those are labels that I don't see myself
relinquishing anytime soon but I think
if I have a talent personally I think
it's just the ability to kind of like
swap
labels within my identity and I
think being able to observe myself do
that is what kind of allowed me to write
well about these topics
um that's really fascinating to me
because I so I think a lot about how do
you get people to actually make the
change yeah and at first I'm just
telling people okay here's what you do
uh there's this thing I think one of the
big things is people have it's it's
twofold they have an inability to build
desire so they just don't want anything
in their life not badly enough to keep
pushing through and then they don't know
how to use identity statements to hold
themselves accountable yeah and as I
would teach people okay let me I'm just
going to walk you through what I do I
can't swear that it's going to work but
this is what I actually did and so I
know it worked at least once Y and the
more I would tell people and tell people
and tell people and see many people
tread water and not be able to make that
progress I was like am I just hyper
malleable yeah in that is this my
superpower is there something in the way
to your point about is I don't know if
it's nature nurture a combination
whatever but I find it very easy to
point myself at something new run a
process yep and that process then
anchors me emotionally so for instance
when I was at Quest everybody just
assumed I was going to be doing the
nutrition thing for the rest of my life
yeah and I was like no I've always
wanted to do the film thing but even
when I went from film to then focusing
on nutrition or entrepreneurship is is
the more honest
answer that was pretty easy for me to do
and say okay I'm going to tie something
I care deeply about to this thing
because it needs to be something bigger
than myself I need to have real sense of
like I'm contributing to the group to
make this stick but then when I did it
again is I left Quest into impact Theory
and was like okay this is now a process
I know how to run this I have to take
people that I care about deeply
associate them with the mission of
building this thing and then I'll be
able to push through the
difficulties so you're not tapping out
and just saying well I'm a hyper
responder everybody else can you know go
deal with it for themselves you're
trying to crack that nut what do you
what do you think is the thread that
you're going to pull on it's a
combination of a couple things one and
one part of that you you alluded to
which is the desire you know I do think
there are ways
to manipulate our level of Desire or our
level of motivation I guess kind of the
emotional aspect of like feeling fired
up about something I think most people
it's not hard for them to get fired
about something for a few days it's once
you get to like week two that most
people tap out and so I think there's a
lot of I think people underestimate how
influenced we are by our surroundings
and our environment um and I think there
to make those some of those early
changes sustainable you have to do a lot
of interventions within your environment
whether that is you know throwing all
the junk food out of your fridge um
making it easier to get out of bed in
the morning putting the alarm clock on
the other side of the room or uh
surrounding yourself with the the right
people to that will help that will make
it easier to implement the desired
change right like fundamentally we are
most of our psychology is driven most of
our happiness is driven by our
relationships and where the reasons that
we are receiving social validation and
so if you are receiving social
validation from people for bad behavior
I see then one of the most effective
things you can do is surround yourself
with people who are going to validate
you for better behaviors um like one
thing I've been saying a lot that's been
resonating with people is that you know
there's all this talk about like I wish
I didn't care what people think or I
wish I didn't didn't need validation
from others but that's impossible like
we're social creatures we're always
going to need validation instead of
trying to not be validated by others we
should be validated by better people and
for better reasons so if the validation
that you find yourself seeking from
others is hurting you then you need to
find people that that social validation
is going to help you you know and the
most Bal cliche example is like joining
a gym right like join join go join a
CrossFit class or something it's like
what CrossFit has done that is so genius
is that they have found a way to
leverage social validation into exercise
so it's like people who have hated
exercise their entire life suddenly
they're in an environment where a bunch
of really nice encouraging people are
rewarding them for doing hard things
and I think that is probably at like the
base level like the most fundamental way
to kind of rewire what you care about or
what you want in your life is to align
yourself with social groups that are
going to reward you for wanting those
things dude I think that's so often miss
so I you still do get asked by parents a
lot uh you know my kids are really
headed down the wrong path how do I get
them to turn around and I mean sometimes
it's you know really heavy [ __ ] drugs
whatever and setting aside like the
addiction aspect for a second my answer
is always there's only one path I know
of that is as close to guaranteed to
work as humanly possible and that is to
kidnap them take them to a deserted
island full of people that they want to
earn respect of Y and if you drop them
into a group where they can't escape
because it's going to suck and they're
not going to have anywhere to turn other
than these people to get their
validation to get their respect and if
they want their respect no matter how
crazy or difficult the thing is that
they ask them to do they will do it Y
and that like just knowing what I know
about human psychology and the way that
the human animal moves as a social
creature like they are going to embed
themselves in that group and adhere to
the Norms of that group group they have
to be very thoughtful about what group
you embed them in because they probably
ended up doing the drugs or whatever
because they got embedded in a group of
people that were doing dumb [ __ ] and
they wanted their respect yeah and it
goes back to um the song I took a pill
in ABA you know so aichi would think I
was cool it's like we do a lot of dumb
things so that people will think that
we're cool but to your point you can
flip that around but it becomes hard to
Cobble those people together yeah now
one thing that was really useful for me
was books so treating books as if they
were those friends so I know you've
heard the quote you're the average of
The Five People You spend the most time
with I think you're the average of the
five people and ideas you spend the most
time with so way better if you can get
around a peer group that will reinforce
it'll be aund times more impactful um
but what do you think about the ability
for books to give you the ideas that you
can anchor yourself around yeah I think
look ideas are NE necessary but they're
not sufficient it's my buddy Dereck cers
has this great quote where he says like
if intellectually understanding
something was enough we would all be
billionaires with six packs and it's
clearly it's not you know so you need
the ideas but the ideas only get you
like halfway there and and I think with
the
internet ideas have been proliferating
you know it used to be a lot of these
ideas that you and I are discussing
right now you 20 years ago you had to be
a professor at a in a psychology
department doing research to to know
these things or you had to pay a lot of
money for a very expensive seminar to
learn these things these days it's with
social media and everything like these
ideas are everywhere they're they're
extremely cheap and almost free so it's
like anybody who has any intellectual
interest
is going to collect and consume a lot of
very good ideas pretty quickly um I
think the the the power that hasn't been
tapped into yet is using the
internet is solving solving the
implementation side which means solving
the validation side you know and using
the internet to kind of do what you were
just describing of
like finding communities finding that
desert island group of like okay these
are my
people we together for this explicit
reason we want to improve ourselves in
this way we come from similar
backgrounds maybe have similar traumas
or issu
um you know how do we organize that how
do
we how do we get people into the in into
how do we leverage the social pressure
of the internet in a positive way
instead of the negative way which is how
it's mostly been used up until now
that's kind of
like where my brain is all the time now
that to me is largely a function of
adopting a certain value system do you
have and I love ask Pete you're going to
try to squirm out of this I'm GNA push
you uh do you have like a as close to a
universal subset because it'll never be
the totality but a universal subset of
values that if people adhere to these
it's going to move their life forward I
get it most people won't be able to
adhere to it but is there like a small
handful of things you're like everybody
should have these I so I've thought I'm
not going to scir out of this because I
thought about this I thought about this
um it is hard to say obviously it's hard
to say anything universally but if I had
to say to me there's probably three
Universal principles that I think are
just
effective for the entire human species
it's like just how we're wired first one
is radical responsibility is like taking
ownership of everything that happens in
your
life uh even if it's not your fault even
if it's tragic even if it's completely
unfair and unjust you still have to take
responsibility for your response to it
and you have to take responsibility for
how you're going to deal with that
challenge or or
setback uh responsibility is so
important because it empowers you
psychologically like as long as you're
blaming something around you and you
might even be completely correct that it
is their fault but as long as you're
like existing in that mind space you are
disempowering yourself from actually
doing anything to improve your situation
so guaranteed it's um that's kind of in
my opinion I call it the prime belief
but it's like nothing else really works
until people kind of like flip that
switch of like okay I need to take
responsibility for this even though I've
been what you say to people that push
back that say I was screwed over like
how can you even say this it it's fault
and responsibility so this is a very
popular part of the subtle art book but
fault and responsibility are two
different things we tend to associate
them uh because it's you know if you hit
me with your car you're at fault and so
now you owe me something um that's how
our legal system works that's how our
social systems kind of work but so I
think our our natural instinct is to
think you know well I had have screwed
up childhood because this person
traumatized me so somebody's got to come
come fix it for me right like somebody
else messed up my life so somebody else
needs to come fix it um
and that's like again you may not be you
may be factually correct but nobody's
showing up to fix your life for you at a
certain point like you have to
decide it it doesn't matter what what's
happened I'm the only person who owns my
own future many people might own my past
but only I own my future so I need to
explicitly take responsibility for
making sure it's a good future um second
principle
is
uh radical
acceptance um so
everybody's our our natural inclination
is to uh seek pleasurable experiences in
emotions and avoid unpleasurable
experiences and emotions and I think the
most psychologically healthy thing to do
is to Simply accept all emotional
experiences uh regardless of whether
they feel good or feel bad by accept do
you just mean don't fight bad don't
resist don't avoid don't deny don't
suppress um and there are some people
that suppress positive emotions as well
um which is you know that's a whole
tangent but it does happen um but
basically you know the the the the piffy
ele elevator pitch for this is that
there's there's no such thing as a good
or bad emotion there's only good and bad
responses to emotions so you can you can
respond to Joy in a very unhealthy way
in fact a lot of people respond to Joy
in a very unhealthy really give me an
example I mean you go get shitfaced with
a bunch of your friends and you know
wake up in a ditch somewhere um that's
interesting you know a lot of people
develop when they feel good they develop
a very strong sense of entitlement they
feel they they are owed certain things
because they're so happy or they feel so
good so that that would be an unhealth
response to positive emotions uh but
yeah it's it's a lot of people if
there's kind of like a template for the
average email that I get in my inbox
it's it's basically this it's a person
says you know XY andz are happening in
my life right
now I feel really bad how do I stop
feeling bad and my response is always
the same is you don't stop feeling bad
you feel bad and you find find a way to
respond well despite feeling bad like
it's if you try to stop feeling bad not
only are you going to distract
yourself uh and and get sucked down a
bunch of rabbit holes but you're
actually probably going to make yourself
feel worse right it's
like when you wish you didn't feel
guilty you just feel more guilty when
you get angry at yourself for being
angry you just get even more Angry like
it's the spiral that starts happening um
so radical responsibility radical
acceptance and uh [ __ ] I'm blanking on
the third um I had a video about this
uh I've been there so many times that's
in interviews I have a rule never say
the number like give me three whatever
because then people are like H [ __ ] it's
always my those are two I think those
are really huge so responsibility
acceptance um I'll throw a third one
into the mix it's what I call the only
belief that matters it's a bit tough to
Wrangle this in the as a value but I
would say progress becomes the value and
then this is the mechanism progress
literally it that's hilarious yes so it
it was uh I think I called it like
radical growth which is basically that's
amazing your your motivation for
everything you do should be to improve
the lives of yourself and others facts
and yeah tell me why and others I think
people will get why they should work on
progress themselves which is to quote
Tony Robbins a foundational pillar to
human happiness which I really agree
with totally uh but why
others uh because helping others gives
our life meaning you know you can
improve yourself all day every day but
what I find is that people who are very
very absorbed in just improving their
own lot in life it starts to feel a
little bit pointless at a certain point
you know it comes back to that that's so
weird to me but so true it is it comes
back to that fact that like we're
fundamentally social animals and so most
of what we feel what we derive meaning
and and happiness from is our our
relationships and
so people who improve themselves a lot
they they eventually kind of arrive at
this point so okay I I kind of divide
Improvement up into two there's two Cate
ories one is the bad to okay and one is
the okay to great and I think this is
something that gets lost in our industry
a lot is that there are a lot of people
who are coming to us because they feel
bad and they just want to feel okay and
then there are a lot of people who come
to us because they feel okay but they
want to feel great and those are two
very different problems with and in many
ways they're two completely different
conversations and I think a lot of
advice that is intended for the okay to
great people is
misinterpreted by the bad the okay and
vice versa very interesting and and so I
think if you are trying to go from bad
to okay then yeah you should focus on
yourself like it's the old like put your
oxygen mask on before you put on the
mask of others um but if you're in the
okay to great then a a very big
component of that is like okay if my
life's great what's the point if I'm not
sharing that with people if I'm not
using all of the amazing skills and
tools and um and wisdom that I've
developed Within Myself to help bring
other people along um and so I think it
it It ultimately we need
to uh you know a complete life is
motivated by both the truth is hitting
your career goals is not easy you have
to be willing to go the extra mile to
stand out and do hard things better than
anybody else but there are 10 steps I
want to take you through that will 100
100x your efficiency so you can crush
your goals and get back more time into
your day you'll not only get control of
your time you'll learn how to use that
momentum to take on your next big goal
to help you do this I've created a list
of the 10 most impactful things that any
High achiever needs to dominate and you
can download it for free by clicking the
link in today's description all right my
friend back to today's episode so
meaning and purpose for sure big part of
it um what I have found is whenever
somebody's striving to to do something
great there is a moment where it gets
difficult you were saying this is I I
almost interrupted you cuz it's so
terrifying and I think you're so right
that most people give up at about week
two MH and if you think about the
amazing things you've done in your life
and I think about the things I've done
in my life it's like it's not even year
two it's like you're 10 and you start to
get somewhere and the difference between
the second week and the second decade is
so terrifying so I'm I talked to people
a lot about the success is a game of
attrition most people just quit and they
quit because they feel badly about
themselves at some point something gut
checks you about are you good enough
smart enough worthy whatever and people
come up wanting they've got the negative
voice in their head they don't have the
right value system whatever but they
implode because they've got the negative
voice it's running unchecked uh they
don't have a way to Anchor themselves
which I would say the thing to Anchor
yourself around is Improvement itself
it's like you're getting better to your
point though if you don't understand how
to take a group of people people that
are real to you that you love and say
okay this thing I'm going to do is going
to be of service to that and I just saw
a a YouTube short today from Mitch okaku
of all people was really interesting and
I disagreed with him so violently and he
was saying that uh we made a mistake 50
years ago and we're still paying the
price and the mistake is that we think
of the human mind as a computer but the
problem is the human mind has no
operating system and I was like [ __ ]
are you for real like what are you
talking about like and he said very
specifically uh that we don't have sub
routines running in our minds and I was
like what like the human mind is shaped
by Evolution and there are these
screaming sub routines that are going to
dictate your behavior and one of them is
you better serve the group Y and whether
you want that to be true or not like
that is running from an evolutionary
standpoint you are propelled so hard to
go be of service to people and when I
say it out loud it sounds really cheesy
but I'm like you're destined for misery
if you cannot f figure out how to serve
people and do something awesome for
other people and this is going to be a
weird example but I think it will make
sense M so uh I discovered anime in my
40s and I went all in and for like 18 no
it wasn't 18 months it's like eight
months I was watching so much it was
amazing I was getting up really early in
the morning and I was watching like an
hour or two of anime a day seven days a
week it was awesome and I learned the
art form and all of that once I had the
art form locked in I couldn't allow
myself like I could wouldn't enjoy
spending a bunch of time on it even
though I like it because I was like I no
longer need to do that to serve other
people now I needed to master anime as
an art form because for me to get a
growth mindset out at scale I believe I
need to do it through entertainment
anime has become the dominant form of
entertainment for young people so I was
like I really need to understand this
yeah but the second I was like oh I get
the art form like all that passion and
joy that I had and and feeling like yes
I'm I'm moving myself forward I'm making
progress by sitting and watching it went
away
and I was like this is where most people
live is they're in that post moment
where they're doing something but they
don't know why they're doing it it's not
associated to helping people or moving
themselves forward in any way and so
their whole life is one big like what am
I doing yeah and that's where to me and
look maybe some people either they
discover it when they're really young or
they have a natural pension for
something and and so they're already
gravitating towards service that wasn't
my shtick like I had to find that and
realize why am I running out of steam
and as soon as I was like I'm not going
to be fighting for myself I'm going to
fight for somebody else then I was like
[ __ ] I can go crazy I've got way more
endurance way more energy but I had to
learn oh this is a conscious process of
saying okay Quest isn't going to be
about money it's going to be about
saving my mom and my sister because
they're morbidly obese and I want to
help them y impact Theory isn't going to
be about building you know this big
thing it's going to be about these kids
that I watch just get devoured by the
inner cities and I was like if I could
sneak a growth mindset in when they're
young then I could actually do something
yeah once I made that switch then I was
like okay I can fight forever but
without that notada it's funny you and I
were we were talking about kids a little
bit before we we went live and we're
both at that age where all of our
friends either have little kids or are
having kids having second kids and it's
it's interesting so many of my friends
particularly
fathers that they had had weight loss
goals or work goals or you know wanted
to do more networking or start a new
business or whatever and they had put it
off for years and all of a sudden that
kid shows up and it's like a switch goes
off and then they actually develop they
actually make a bunch of those changes
and I think it's just it's another
example of what you're talking about is
suddenly that reason shows up and it's
like
oh I you know I couldn't lose weight for
myself but I don't want to be you know I
want to be able to play with my kid I
don't want to be obese and you know
running out of energy when my kid is
running around so I better lose some
weight and it's like suddenly they do um
I want to come back to really quick
though
the the word and you know
uh we
said we should all everything should be
motivated by improving lives of
ourselves and others I think the and is
important because what I find is that
generally people are very people are
naturally very good at one or the other
but not both so there are a lot of
people who are naturally very good at
helping others and focusing on others
and worrying about others and taking
care of others but they're bad at taking
care of themselves and they neglect
themselves they sacrifice themselves too
much and then there are a lot of people
who are very good at taking care of
themselves or focusing on themselves but
they don't they're bad at focusing on
others or helping others and I
think developing being able to bridge
those two things and like Square what
feels contradictory at times where it's
like you're taking care of yourself and
you're taking care of the group and
you're taking care of your loved ones
like all at the same time you're finding
the win-win-win in each
situation um I think that is the rare
skill that that we should all be aiming
for um but it takes us it takes
everybody a long time to get
there yes and usually after a lot of
years of suffering what's going to be
really interesting in a modern context
as birth rates decline just
precipitously and more and more people
aren't having kids I think about this a
lot so I've consciously decided not to
have kids and I'm very aware of the fact
that people come to me for advice and
despite your protestations about not
going on stage and telling people do
this this is exactly what I do and I
feel supremely confident uh foolishly
perhaps but the one thing that I'm
really careful about is you need to be
real thoughtful if you're going to not
have kids yeah and I think that the
default answer for people should be to
have kids and it's a little bit like
that uh the fence thing I forget what
it's called but it's like if you are
wandering through a space and you come
upon a fence your default assumption
should not be I don't know why it's
there so let's tear it down you should
be like I need to figure out why it's
there before I tear it down yeah and
that's how I feel about not having kids
is I literally just yesterday so we have
the saying impact Theory University
and person asked me a question and I was
I was startled by the question and it
was like I uh sit in bed and I stare at
the ceiling I don't want anything I
can't even work up uh the outrage when
somebody wrongs me I just I don't care
and I was like whoa yeah so I was like
hey let me ask what may sound like a
random question do you have kids they
were like No And I was like I am not
surprised so I was like I don't know
your age I don't know if this is the
right advice for you but let's talk
about having kids is Nature's Way of
going I'm going to give you meaning and
purpose I'm going to give you something
to fight for something to die for
something ultimately to live for and
when people don't have that like for me
it was very conscious I was like I have
to be very careful because kids are
instant meaning and purpose yeah and I
was like I found that through my work
and it's deeply fulfilling and I have an
amazing relationship with my wife it's
deeply fulfilling but I was like we had
a real honest conversation about it's a
very dangerous game because we now are
going to Forever have to find our
meaning and purpose in something other
than the sort of prepackage like here
you go and so when I was answering this
person's question I was like okay you
have to evaluate your own life I said I
honestly feel nervous saying the
following but I actually believe that
it's true for enough people that this is
worth saying out loud which is you might
want to consider having kids yeah find
somebody that you love build a strong
relation relationship first I'm old
fashioned like that but like do that
have kids you may be startled to your
example of how all of a sudden getting
out of bed is easy because you're
thinking about somebody else yeah and I
think people ignore that to their own
Peril yeah I I I think
it's
we're we've developed a culture which
this is one of those things that in many
ways it's great but there's some
negative side effects I don't think have
completely sunk in but like we've
developed a culture where it is
mainstream and widely okay to think
about your own Mental Health First to
think about your own priorities think
about your own happiness uh and figure
out what kind of life you want to make
and obviously that's a great thing in a
vacuum but to your point the there's a
there's kind of a hidden cost to that
which is one once you're given the
freedom and the opportunity to think
very deeply about your who you're going
to be and how are you going to be happy
and how are you going to find meaning in
the world
um
you suddenly nothing is given to you
suddenly you have to kind of conjure it
out of thin air like the way I described
this in subtle art was like you know a
100 years
ago life was objectively worse like it's
sucked like you're probably a sub
assistance farmer somewhere you're
probably in a war or a famine or a
depression Jes but when you're living
but 100 years ago it was always very
very
clear what your purpose was what the
goal was what the meaning in your life
was it was to survive you know don't get
shot don't get killed and grow enough
food to feed yourself and your family
and so everybody woke up every day
knowing exactly what they were going to
do that day knowing exactly what had to
be done or or else the consequence was
potentially death and so I think a lot
of these existential questions that we
wrestle with in the 21st century of like
who am I why am I here what am I
supposed to be doing like these are
luxuries these are very very first world
problems and in in many ways we've we've
traded physical struggle for
psychological struggle like that is the
hidden cost of our Comforts and freedom
that we've earned for ourselves over the
past five six Generations so fascinating
this is a very weird time of God I think
it was you that said it it's like when
you've been just a wash in abundance
forever it there's a real Distortion
that happens are you watching The Last
of Us I've played the games so I'm
waiting okay so you know you know the
story yeah it it's very fascinating to
watch the story of people who go from
the normal life that we all know to you
are one rabbit kill or deal deer kill
away from dying and like what that does
and how it is clarifying but also breaks
down trust because now there's so much
competition between people for like very
scarce resources but it's it's really
clarifying and when I think about where
Society is going certainly here in much
of the West definitely in the US it's
like it gets to be a very precarious
tight RPP when you don't have to think
about other people you can build a life
where you're staying at home and you're
supposedly just a wash and opulence and
everything is great and easy but you
have this profound sense of unease and
something isn't right and people don't
really have a sense of how to Cobble
that together you've mentioned it a
couple times already in this interview
but I want to put a point on you say
that people's I think you said happiness
is most tied to their relationship
yeah how do we do relationships well is
it a buch of people are there certain
like you need romance you need
friendship whatever just just more easy
questions I see I like the softballs I
like softballs Mar come
on
um I definitely don't think the answer
is quantity and I think
that well I mean actually we have a lot
of research showing that
the answer to to the relationship
question is not quantity like in fact it
seems that there's thing called the
dunar number which shows that you know
we actually seem we struggle quite a bit
to empathize Beyond a certain amount of
people and in terms of close friendships
we seem to max out around five or
six um so it's definitely quality over
quantity and and I think not only is it
quality over quantity but quantity can
actually distract from quantity quality
uh I just moved here from New York we
were talking about that earlier one of
the the constant struggles in New York
City is that there's always so much
going on and there's so many people that
you can meet and hang out with
that nobody actually ends up being
satisfied with their social lives like
it ends up being this kind of constant
churn of friends and acquaintances and
you might meet somebody and you really
like them and you're like man we should
hang out we should get together and
eight months will go by before you see
them again just because your both of
your schedules are so hectic and crazy
and there's so much other stuff going on
so uh I I do think quantity distracts
from the Quality quality is what matters
and I think on when you talk about
quality
there's there's a few things going on
one is there there needs to be some sort
of alignment in terms of values and
worldview so like you need to have
something in common you need to care
about the same thing something doesn't
need to be about doesn't doesn't need to
be everything but there need there needs
to be something that you both believe
that you both care about this is true
for friendships and romantic
relationships um there needs to be
alignment somewhere on like a deep value
um at the same time it seems to be
beneficial if there's also a little bit
of uh not just difference but like
opposites you know so introverts tend to
play really well with ex extroverts and
vice versa um you know the extrovert
needs somebody to listen to all their
[ __ ] and the introvert needs needs
somebody to listen to all day so um you
know so it works out well um so there
there are certain personality traits
that tend to complement each other well
and I think that's what we describe as
chemistry you know when you sit with
somebody and it's just like it just
works it's because you have like
complimentary personality traits that
kind of what are the things you think
people need to agree
on um so actually so my friend near all
had this great thing uh and he's not a
relationships guy he's just a friend he
actually I don't know if he's been the
yeah he's been on your show so he's uh
his whole thing is about attention and
distraction um but I I was hanging out
with him once and and his theory was he
said um so there's five things I
think see I'm doing it again doing it
again
danger he's got a handful of things I
think I I think I can get it I think I
can get it um so uh religion
so okay
cleanliness religion politics kids
and uh oh
[ __ ] I think goal I'll say like life
goals it's probably something else but
we'll say life goals this yeah I did not
see that one coming so he said he said
if you get all five you're probably
bored because you agree on everything if
you get four you're that's probably like
the optimal spot three you're okay but
you're probably
fighting a decent amount and he said
less than three it's like it's not going
to work cuz you just don't align on
enough things um so I think
it's the things that people need to
really align align on is like lifestyle
habits which I guess is cleanliness okay
that yeah that makes sense that's the
one thing my wife and I fight about so
we have four out of the five yeah me me
and my wife too um but like kids
politics religion like you know you
probably need to be aligned on more of
those things than not
um cuz it's yeah I mean you can there
are a couples that disagree politically
disagree you know different religions
but it's like there needs to be enough
overlap that like it kind of keeps them
binded
together
um so we've got shared values we've got
complimentary but different
personalities um and then the crazy
thing is so if you look at like research
on friendships in
particular uh I've been really
interested in this because we're both at
that age where I think it's it gets hard
to make friends because everybody's so
busy all the time um if you look at the
research on friendship like the number
one fact you know they talk about all
these things similar values um you know
similar Hobbies or behaviors or
interests or whatever the but the the
number one factor that that never gets
talked about is simply EXP
it's like you tend to become friends
with or develop relationships with
people you see all the time and that I
think that's just such an underrated
thing and this kind of comes back to the
the environment piece of like putting
yourself in an environment around people
that you
want who validate you in a positive way
or who you want to be more like um you
know there's a certain amount of value
just seeing the same type of people day
after day after day like it there's like
an unconscious bond that starts forming
whether you want it to or not so how do
people go about constructing that is it
just whoever you work with that's going
to be that or well I I think we you know
we run into this a similar Paradox of
choice especially these days with remote
work and everything right like if
everybody's working from home then now
you now you get even more choice in
terms of like who you spend time with
but you also default to isolation yep
which is something I definitely worry
about we when we so we did about 18
months where no one came in the office
we actually had employees start saying
hey can we come back now yeah because
they were feeling so isolated now it
wasn't everybody there are still people
you know three years later that are like
no no no I don't want to come back yet
so it's interesting yeah um isolation I
think forcing yourself to get out it's
funny because you know as somebody who's
been self-employed his whole
career a lot of the problems that that I
faced in my
20s it it's interesting like it's
interesting to see the world going
through it which is like I had to learn
how to force myself out of the house
because it's what you discover is that
when you work in the same room that you
sleep and you watch TV and you like do
whatever your interests are and you work
out
like it becomes very hard to leave that
room at a certain point and so you have
to find you have to like invent reasons
to make you leave um I I guess I you
know my answer to your question is just
I I think I'm bullish on communities
over the next 10 20 years like I just
think without with as you pointed out
with fewer kids with less religion and
with more remote work you know like that
those three things are probably the
biggest reasons that
people physically go to the same place
over and over and over again and so I
think we're just out of psychological
need we're going to have to reinvent
that in some
way just around other activities or
behaviors you know the gym class the
CrossFit class is a perfect example like
what does that look like in all these
other verticals you know like book clubs
uh you know pickle ball like everybody's
playing pickle ball and honestly I
thinking about that it's mostly just
because we want to go see the same five
people
like you need to go see the same five
people over and over and over again like
that's just part of being kind of a
psychologically stable person yeah it's
interesting the idea that the most
severe form of punishment you can put a
human through is isolation y making them
be by themselves that's really weird as
somebody who likes to be alone but
always in my control and all that so I
get that it's a very artificial way but
I just I so enjoy being by myself I'm
startled I accept the truth of it trust
me this is not me going oh it wouldn't
happen to me but I'm startled that that
really is the most brutal form of
punishment that you can put a human
through it's very strange well you just
got to imagine no
internet yeah yeah no no internet would
be rough that is for sure but the the
fact that the human mind will begin to
hallucinate y if it isn't seeing other
people I'm sorry what yeah like that's
so that your brain has such a hunger to
have people to interact with that it
will make them up in order to scratch
that itch that's really that's surreal
to me yeah I mean it it's it puts it on
the same level as like food or yeah
breathing no for sure we don't consider
it the same way it's interesting it
really hits me as okay this is super
super important Sex Drive is another one
that like people are very I think are
quick to not think about how fundamental
a drive that is yeah um you know for
guys it's it's harder to forget because
you realize oh I don't control my
erection yeah and when you realize whoa
whoa whoa like nature put this out of my
conscious reach like that is such a
deeply embedded drive that it's like
there is MIT okaku there is a sub
routine running in my brain that's like
you're going to want what I you know
evolution tell you you're going to want
that's crazy and so when you've got that
kind of thing like pushing you to move
forward if people don't take that time
to understand it recognize how important
it is and this is something that my wife
and I tell people in relationships a lot
like if you want a long lasting
relationship you've got to keep having
sex yeah because so often especially
people that have kids you have Bed Death
yeah and so you become basically like
roommates and with the amount that I
work like that's always the danger for
me that I will just get so stressed and
there's so much going on and I'm sure
it's just driving my testosterone down I
just don't feel like it yeah and so
there have been times where Lisa and I
have had to be like okay like this is a
real thing like we have to be committed
to this and we can't let I mean look
there's going to be times where you're
sick or whatever but like we try not to
let a week go by where we don't have sex
ideally more than once yeah so it's like
and look that's me speaking in my 40s
you've been very generous to put me at
your age this whole episode which is not
true but like
that you know you really really have to
be thoughtful yeah I want to go back to
romantic love before we started rolling
you said that you were a convert because
I said I'm a huge believer in love and
marriage and you said I'm a convert um
one what made you think in the beginning
not for me and then what changed your
mind I
so my emotional background is avoidant
attachment and basically a commitment
phobe so I struggle quite a bit in
romantic relationships to maintain
romantic relationships to because you
were afraid they would reject you and so
you reject them
first uh yeah I mean that that's
fundamentally like the kind of the way
an avoidant attachment works is it's uh
a deep insecurity of being hurt and so
you you protect yourself by finding
reasons to push people away um and most
of those reasons are going to be
irrational
or
imagined um so that that that was most
of my early
relationships um when did you become
consciously aware of that I
think probably towards the end of my
relationship with my college girlfriend
um I I developed an awareness you know
with my first serious
girlfriend I was just a bad boyfriend
and but I I had so little awareness I I
didn't even realize that I was you know
cuz we all justify our decisions and
actions and so you know I kind of walked
out of that one thinking I I was like
Rosy and gold and she was the terrible
one and you know as an adult I look back
I'm like no I was an idiot but it was
with my college girlfriend that I you
know I got to like the back half of that
relationship um it was about two and a
half years and I just realized I'm like
wow I'm like really not good to her like
really care about her but I'm not a good
boyfriend and and I had to it was
difficult to kind of admit that to
myself and and then I started
investigating why that was like why why
am I like responding in these weird
emotional ways and doing shitty things
to her um you know like just it causing
drama for no reason um and so that's I
started reading a lot about
relationships and when I stumbled across
the attachment Theory it was like oh
[ __ ] yeah that's me that's that's it
right there um and so at that point
you're like I'm maybe because of this
I'm not interested in pursuing something
or um
so the thing so the thing about an
avoidant attachment is is you have a
fundamental
uh just anxiety and fear around intimacy
and romance and it's that manifests
itself in various ways but you know it's
we we experience the emotion first and
then we justify it later and so in my
younger years I found all sorts of
reasons to justify this you know it's
just I have a really high sex drive I'm
polyamorous I uh you know my lifestyle
is just I'm always going to be on the
road and working really hard so I'm
never going to have time to like settle
down and commit you know it's like I
started kind of telling myself all these
stories about myself um that made me
think that I am not the type of person
who settles down with one partner for a
long period of time
uh as I got older and started to
understand a little bit more about my
baggage and my childhood and Trauma and
things like that I started to realize
that maybe some of that's not entirely
true and I
and I need to work on myself uh and then
it was when I met my wife that
I I still had some of those narratives
going on but it was funny it was like I
was with her for one year two
years and normally in the in the exact
same spots that historically I had kind
of freaked out and tried to get away or
caused a bunch of drama or cheated on
her or whatever I'm hitting that same
like I guess Landmark with my wife and
I'm like hm I still have a lot of this
anxiety but like I don't want to go
anywhere like I want this is where I
want to be and I
think it forced me to kind of work
through a lot of that stuff within the
relationship with her there's desire
again this is exactly why I'm always
when somebody fails to get what they
want in life while there is a long road
to hoe I'm always like you just don't
want it badly enough to figure those
things out because in that moment if you
were like I dig her but not as much as I
want to go be free or go get laid or
whatever and this is this is where I
think a lot of people fall down
certainly guys is the thrill of the hunt
the thrill of convincing someone that um
you know maybe a week ago you didn't
even know to sleep with you is really
intoxicating Y and to pretend that that
isn't like a druglike thing is what's
going to get you in trouble because it
is so different to pursue that that
versus pursuing a long-term committed
relationship this is one thing I always
thought okay I have I have set myself up
well for a long-term relationship
because I've thought about the nature of
relationships since I was a teenager and
so like what phases do they move through
neurochemically and so like early love
is very different than you've been
married for 5 years and you know those
things shift and change and so it
becomes about understanding how they're
going to change and having a meta desire
that's over that so for me the meta
desire that overrides everything in my
marriage is I want to see what a life
looks like when you share it with
somebody yes and that the good the bad
the ups and downs but that idea really
speaks to me and so even though I really
enjoyed the early years where it was
there was a sexual Freedom if you will
if I could be with whoever I wanted y um
I was I waited so when I decided to
propose to my wife as I was telling you
I made a pros and cons list and that was
on there like am I okay that this is the
last person I'm ever going to sleep with
yeah and running that math I was like
yeah like I recognize it as a sacrifice
I'm not pretending that I'm not giving
something up because I very much am but
the thing that I get this idea of being
able to share my life with her and grow
with her and we were in our she was 21
when we met I was only 24 m so it was
like you know we were pretty pretty
early so it was like I went I was broke
at the time so it was like there was no
like oh I've already made it now I'm
finding somebody so I was like wow we're
really going to like do this together
and dream together and build together
and all of that stuff and so it was like
talking about okay things are going to
change like this I remember as we were
in the grips of the cocaine like effects
of that when you first realize you're in
love which was insane I was like this
feeling will change this is going to
turn into something else and we have to
be ready for that we have to communicate
through that we have to navigate through
that um but if we handle it well I have
a feeling there's something on the other
side of this that's really going to be
that's better than cocaine yeah truly
which nobody tells you like this is the
other thing I just
think well first of all you alluded to
something that was very very major for
me and I think this is true for a lot of
men in particular is I think men tend to
overestimate the significance of the
hunt the chase the sexual Conquest I do
think you know obviously there's it is
very enjoyable and it's fun and there
it's almost like a sport um and I think
once I re but I think a lot of men over
because they receive so much Social
validation and because they have scripts
running that tell them that that's what
makes them high status or important or
desirable um they tend to put way more
meaning into it than there actually is
you know an epiphany for me and I was
definitely one of those guys so an
epiphany for me was when I realized
exactly what you were just saying is
that basically the Hunt is it's a
glorified hobby like it's just it's
almost a sport and
it's the same way like you can love
basketball and like make it the center
of your life but it's still just
basketball like it's never going to be
more than just basketball you know and
it's the same thing with dating a bunch
of people and hooking up with a bunch of
hot girls and and getting all that
validation from that and meanwhile there
is a certain level of depth of meaning
when you have shared a decade with
somebody and you've been through the
best times and the worst times with that
person you've had Joy with that person
you've had pain and fear with that
person and you're still with them and
they've watched you grow through that
and you've watched them grow through
that like that is so rare and special
and it is you can't replicate that in
any other way
and once that clicked for me that like
wait a second this thing that I've been
spending all these years focusing so
much on was oversold to me was like like
overhyped and this thing that most
people complain about which is marriage
is totally undersold to me like the joy
and the meaning and the impact of like
you know seeing my wife accomplish
something in her business that she's
been working three years towards and you
know I and watching her stress through
it and giving her support and giving her
advice like watching her succeed in that
moment like it's so much more impactful
and meaningful than like the best one
night stand ever had like it's not even
on the same you know you're like you're
not even in the same territory when you
compare those two things I you know
I that Revelation was like so profound
for me uh and and and I'm a little
bitter that like that message isn't like
I started wondering I'm like where was
this message when I was 20 right like
because when I was 20 the message was no
dude you need to bang as many girls as
possible and never settle down and you
know because that's like what a high
status alpha male does or you know
whatever the the thing was back then and
uh and that was fun for a couple years
but like it doesn't serve you well long
term uh and so I have been I'm glad to I
I'm I'm I'm glad to hear you're you're
on the same page it's I have
intentionally kind of been an advocate
for
classical monogamy and marriage because
I think it is in this day and age it is
is
underrated yeah long-term relationships
for sure it's the most gratifying thing
I've ever done and I say that as
somebody who's had the kind of worldly
success that most people you know fight
and die for and I'm just telling you
like nothing even comes close yep and no
matter how successful you are at least
in my experience it's not like the
negative voice goes away it's not like
oh it's just up and to the right like
it's still that Jagged you know Cliff of
like whoa It's Working no nothing's
working you know it is it going to last
is it is this forever like there's so
much like whipsawing when you're trying
to matter obviously I could have gone
off and retired and just been wealthy
and spent my money but I I played that
thought out and it was very obvious to
me that I would not be able to be happy
y fulfilled that's the right word I
wouldn't be able to be fulfilled and so
I was going to have to go back into
living a full and robust life serving
myself and other people um but in all of
that which is amazing and it's important
and people need to do it but in all of
that nothing has given
me what my wife and it it's it's a
Gestalt of things because it's the
moment where she looks at me like I'm
powerful and that it makes me feel so
good the moments where I am completely
broken in front of her and she's there
and is like I'm here I'm I don't think
less of you for this moment in fact if
anything I'm honored to be needed and
that you show me this and you put all of
that together it's [ __ ] unreal to
this day if she walks into a room and
I'm not expecting her like I'll oh like
I get I won't say I don't get
butterflies but it's like I'm so happy
to see her that and that's we're in the
same house all the time like we
basically never leave the house but if
she walks into a room when I'm not
expecting her it just makes me happy
yeah you can reboot your life your
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today you know you mentioned like the
the butterflies and the cocaine-like
effect of that Ro that early romance
where it's just very very intense
emotions um it does go away but the
thing if it is a healthy solid
relationship the thing that kind of it
Segways into
is almost like a calm everpresent
satisfaction and that is in many ways so
much better you know like it's
it's it's not as exciting it doesn't get
your adrenaline going you're not having
sex three times a day anymore but that's
fine it but it there's just this like
peace you know it's like she comes down
for breakfast and you're just like ah
like a little smile pops on your face
and like it just feels good all the time
um and and it's yeah I can't I can't
recommend it enough like there's and it
comes back to right like the sub
routines thing um like there is a reason
why marriage exists in every culture
across human history yeah sure humans
were not monogamy isn't not everybody's
monogamous all the time there's plenty
of cultures that you know people have
sex with other people or maybe people
stray for a little bit but parab bonding
which is settling down with one partner
for a long period of time that is pretty
Universal to to to The Human Experience
and um and I don't I don't think that's
an accident what do you think about the
modern mating crisis probably the right
way to sum it up like what the hell is
going on now and how do we reverse the
trends I think there's
two issues happening
simultaneously one is just a classic
Paradox of choice you know when you've
got an app that mm you know if I can set
up five
dates you know in the next hour um why
why it removes the stakes and so if if a
date doesn't go well it's kind of like H
whatever um I'll just find somebody else
I think there there needs to be a little
bit you need to feel like you're losing
something if if if a date doesn't go
well to like kind of motivate you to to
open up and put in the effort to like
see if there's a con there so I think
that's part of it I think the other part
of it is that I think generally people
don't you can't really settle into
a a healthy relationship well hold on
let
me it's harder to settle into a healthy
relationship until you've kind of gotten
yourself figured out and I think why did
you hesitate to say that uh well I was
originally going to say you can't mhm
but I don't think that's true really you
think you can be dysfunctional and get
into uh no no no no I well so let me
Define figure yourself out but you can
be dysfunctional and functionalize
yourself within the relationship fair
fair um that's like a Highwire act but
it's incredibly hard but some people
pull it off um just the same way like
you know High School sweethearts will
get married and some against my
recommendation yeah I don't recommend it
but some of them pull it off uh and they
end up living a very happy healthy life
um generally speaking so there are large
amounts of PE large amounts of people
will be accepted but as a general
principle I think it is hard to settle
into a long-term committed relationship
until you have figured out your own
identity a little bit figure out what
you're doing with your own life first uh
before you can share that with somebody
else and I think as the world gets more
complex that process of identity
formation which usually traditionally
happens in like the age 16 to 24 range
that is elongating so it's taking people
longer and longer young people longer
and longer to kind of figure out who
they are who they want to be what
they're going to do with their life and
I think most people want to figure that
out before they figure out who they're
going to be with term and
so the
more uh complexity is introduced to the
identity formation
process the the harder it's going to be
for people to to commit or decide like
like if I don't know who I am or what
I'm doing with my life how am I ever
going to know if you're right for me you
know
so I I imagine it's those two things
kind of happening simultaneously
yeah going back to the five things that
Nal was talking about one of the things
that I think people where most people
fail it's going to be one of two things
either selection which I think is the
biggest problem and I remember for a
long time I thought I'm just so good at
relationships and then one day it really
hit me oh my wife is a ninja and she
lets things roll off her back she
doesn't get wound up about stuff and so
you know all of my high flut and tactics
would not work on somebody that was like
overly reactive emotionally unstable or
whatever so it's like I was like okay
selection is a big part of this and then
values is to your earlier point I think
one of the most overlooked things I
think people need to overlap I have
always called it roughly 80% like if you
have 80% your values aligned you're
going to be good but then understanding
what your different
personality um strengths are
so and look I'm a little skewed on this
because my wife and I work together and
you certainly do not to be high
functioning but I find that the things
that allow us to work together have
served us incredibly well in our
relationship which is that we have we're
good at very different things and so I'm
big Vision I can handle a ton of stress
I can think well through a storm of just
everything going wrong and then my wife
once it's like we know what we're doing
then she's just going to be completely
religious she will never fool herself
it's like this is doable this is not
this is how we're going to get it done
and so you put us together and there's
no wrestling for control both of us are
are able to follow the other person when
the right the that person is the right
person to lead but overall it's like
okay I'll set the strategy whether it's
for the business or for the family and
then she's like the the reality check of
what we can do and how we can do it and
once we learned to say out loud you're
good at this yeah I'm good at this I'm
bad at this you're bad at that like once
we laid all that out we like do we all
agree on this because if we don't let's
have that debate so that it can be a
known thing so when we get into a
situation it's like hey you're the right
person to follow you're way better at
thinking through this kind of problem
than I am cool go forth Prosper you've
got rules set up all this stuff
but without the alignment of values
without acknowledging where we're strong
where we're weak why we work well
together without wanting each other to
win and wanting to be a team we'd never
get anywhere yeah and I find that
especially now this is interesting I
wasn't headed this this way when I
brought this up but part of the problem
that I see now is when you have a
breakdown of gender roles now it's like
you you don't even need those to be the
roles but you need roles like you need
it's like ABS mod soccer if you've ever
seen little kids play soccer they just
swarm around the ball and everybody runs
in a big Clump whereas once you get to
the professionals it's everybody has has
a role they know exactly what they do
and they do it to a tea and I think the
same is true in a marriage I don't care
what your roles are but make sure you
know who's doing what I I agree I and I
don't think you shouldn't be limited to
the gender roles but you shouldn't you
shouldn't also be limited to like 50/50
everything like it's it's people
personalities excel at different things
so you find who's better at what within
the relationship and and you maximize
that I think you touched upon like kind
of the key piece of advice that I find
myself giving these days to young people
who ask about dating and and
relationship stuff which is it's I think
these days it's all about filtering uh
getting really really good at screening
early on
because the the system is essentially
different it's completely different than
it was even 10 15 years ago you know
back in the old days you were limited in
how many people you could meet so when
you did meet somebody you like
you would put in a lot of effort to make
it work and maybe Overlook some
incompatibilities or problem areas to
like you know you're like well I don't
know when I'm going to meet another one
like this one so better make it work
right so a lot of people I think
probably ended up in subpar
relationships but most people ended up
in the relationship they wanted whereas
today you just you have this absolute
glut of opportunities the problem is
sifting through it and I think most
people's approach
to uh to dating is is Antiquated it's
still held over from the way people did
it 20 years ago which is like get to
know each other don't say anything
that's too off-putting you know don't
rock the boat at all don't act like a
weirdo and I think today if you have way
more opportunities than you can
capitalize on but it's it's the
bottleneck is actually figuring out who
you're compatible with then it's
probably optimal to actually be the
weirdo yes who asks some controversial
or offputting questions on the first
date yes maybe upsets a few people maybe
doesn't get called back every time
because when you do find somebody who
aligns with your values then it's like
you know immediately you're like okay
this is the person that I invest my
effort into and all those other people I
don't have to waste weeks texting with
them or being ghosted or not hearing
back or whatever like
so I I think it's the skill that needs
to be learned in the dating world is
actually getting quite
confrontational with the values
conversations like what do you believe
what are your political views what are
your religious views do you want kids
like things that historically you were
never supposed to talk about on a first
date I think get it out there we should
normalize getting it out there it's
interesting man so my wife and I got
together in
2000 and that was the play so I had
gotten to the point where I had broken
up with somebody that by my definition
went a little
crazy and I did not enjoy that
experience and so I was like okay my
then chick I was just trying to take out
to be quite Frank uh who ends up being
my wife but I was like okay she's
legally obligated to leave the country
because she's from England she was only
going to be at the time that we went on
our first St she's only going to be
there for another eight weeks so I was
like this is amazing uh legally
obligated to leave I don't have to worry
about like her turning into a St yeah
like oh my God this is wonderful and so
on the date I was like I'm going to be
aggressively myself because I have no
fear of loss whatsoever and so I was
just like this is who I am this is what
I'm into and she was like this is the
weirdest date I've ever been on in my
life and as as like a a Brit who really
grew up in in the era where it was like
very proper and like you didn't talk
about that kind of stuff she was freaked
out but she was like this was awesome
and so she had a great time and she was
like cool well if you're going to be
that open and honest about who you are
like here I am and so from the jump we
were like oh I actually know who you are
you actually know who I am like I didn't
fake it I can't believe this is the true
but I read her some of my terrible
poetry on the first date and uh was just
like yeah like this is me the
weirdnesses and all of it and I was like
man when a woman like tries to tell me
that she only has eyes for me I'm like
forget it there's no way you don't find
Brad Pit attractive this is like Peak
Fight Club Brad Pit and I was like I
don't buy it for one second and to be
honest that makes me insecure if you're
trying to tell me that you don't find
him attractive then I'm just like [ __ ]
like what do what do I have to do like
is my hair okay like but if I know that
you're like oh I find plenty of people
attractive but I I'm into you and so I'm
committed to this relationship then I'm
like okay word I don't have to be so
paranoid and so that was how we were
talking on the first date she was just
like waa this is like really crazy but
to your point it it established right
away maybe I'm not the person for you
maybe this isn't going to be interesting
for either of us and I learned that I
actually don't I can't believe this is
true but it is I don't enjoy sex no
matter how hot the person is if I'm not
interested in who they are as a person
even if I'm like this is a one night
stand 100% yeah but I still want to
think you're interesting yeah yeah for
sure I love I love the the attraction
thing uh I sometimes describe it as like
a lot of people's a lot of people's
conception of what commitment is is
actually just like North Korea of your
emotions right like it's just because
you're married to somebody doesn't mean
that you're you stop being human like
it's like if I see a a hot woman she's a
hot woman like nothing changed about how
hot she is like she's still hot the only
thing that changes is you you're still
physically attracted to a lot of people
but were consciously choosing each and
every day to be with this person and I
actually think like once
you if you can get to a place where each
person admits that it actually makes the
commitment even more powerful because
you can actually have conversations
about what you think is attractive who
you think is attractive but you're still
choosing to be together and and so it
becomes more meaningful and if you're
doing it right in my opinion your
significant other feels to the Core of
their existence you're into them you
find them attractive you're not seded
it's not like oh because I find them
attractive that in any way shape or form
I feel that that even remotely competes
is in the same league with how I feel
about you and sharing our life and all
that like [ __ ] forget it yes she's
attractive hot whatever but it really it
really this is going to sound so silly
when I finish the example but it's true
I felt seen and understood by my wife we
were once at a pool party at The
Roosevelt Hotel of all places here like
not like some weird party and these two
women went topless started making out
and I didn't notice yeah and so my wife
tapping me on the shoulder she's like yo
you have to see this and I was like I'm
so in love with you right now like the
fact that you cuz most the cliche goes
that had I looked my wife would be
offended and she would hit me and be
upset for the rest of the day and my
wife was like making sure I didn't miss
it and I was like oh that's so cool and
so so stuff like that is is the reward
that you get yeah when you really think
about okay I'm going to share my life
with this person they're going to share
their lives with me we're going to give
up a lot to be with each other
relationships are a big compromise they
need to be worth it yeah and so when you
go out of your way to go okay what would
make being in a relationship with this
person worth it and I really believe
that one of the cuz nature only has two
levers to yank on Pleasure and Pain and
if we more likely to keep to have kids
and to have kids that live long enough
to have kids by being a united front and
helping each other out then there's
going to be some pleasure in doing that
and so what Lisa and I realized very
early on is one I want you to win I want
to see good things happen for you yeah I
want you to feel and just know the depth
of my love and so I'm going to
externalize it and so I made a rule with
myself very early on that every time I
thought a compliment I would say it even
though sometimes it' be super awkward
we'd be in the middle of like hey what
are we going to do this weekend and I
would just notice the way her hair is
and be like damn your hair looks really
beautiful and or she'd say something
like now this happens a lot she's really
[ __ ] good at business and so she'll
say something I'm like oh my God like
that is so smart I'm like hold on I just
need to say I I don't want to distract
this but I need to say I am very
impressed and you know over and it's
just like when you do that enough enough
enough and you're just like I need you
to really feel at a visceral level how
much I'm into you impressed by you love
you and willing to protect you like ah
on and on and on it really turns into
something amazing but this isn't the
message this isn't what the cool kids
say no no and it's not not only is it
great for her because it makes her feel
loved and seen it's good for you too
it's like by Express by noticing and
expressing those things you are
reinforcing the experience of a
appreciating those things her brother
brother people need to hear preach Mark
Manson yes yes it's it's that is so
important you know it it's I it's the
little things that add up over time and
I think you know as you what you just
said about complimenting is is such a
minor thing but like you can never stop
doing it um you mention the sex thing
already saying I love you like even even
if we have a huge fight we make a point
to tell each other that we love each
other like midf fight and I I think it's
really important to do that because it's
when emotions get high and you're
feeling hurt and you're feeling afraid
and and you're angry like all sorts of
crazy things start going through your
head and it it just it like grounds you
and it brings you back to like okay like
it's going to be fine we're in this
together like this is part of it this is
fights happen right um yeah yeah I think
it's it's there's an accumulation of
small things throughout a relationship
that add up into something magnificent
and not easily seen and I think romance
gets so much of the attention because in
Romance it tends to be a few big things
there's grand gestures there's this
insane trip we took to Hawaii or
whatever and it was so romantic and and
those are
very obvious memorable experiences and
and they're also very observable from
the outside you know what you're saying
about complimenting your wife like
that's not very
observable from the outside to most
people but that is that feeling that you
to generate with each other and maintain
over years and years and years like
that's what gives it power right like
that's what makes it so special yes I
want to go back to something you said
really fast because I want people to
hear this so badly
uh you were pointing out that me saying
that to my wife is reinforcing in myself
yes how I feel about my wife did you
give me the chills when you said that
this is like one of my Advanced tactics
yeah the reason that I feel the way I
feel when she walks in a room is because
I've taken the time to reinforce youed
yourself yes that even now it just gave
me the chills again even now telling you
the story that when my wife walks in a
room I get happy reinforces that when my
wife walks in a room I get happy yes and
I I I thought early on um every time I
have the impulse to criticize instead of
doing that I'm going to compliment her
it's always going to be real I'm never
going to say something I don't actually
mean or don't actually feel and it
doesn't mean that I never criticize but
it does mean that when you have those
little like why'd you leave the plate
there or whatever kind of comments it's
like you know what thank you so much for
making that meal for me or you know
something and that little switch makes
such a big difference it it's funny
because it kind of comes back to well I
think when a lot of people think about
like what is a good
relationship they focus more on the
damage control it's like how do you
fight well or how do you not resent each
other or you know how do you keep the
sex life of life but it's so much of it
is doing those little positive things
like finding things to be grateful for
expressing that gratitude uh reminding
yourself of what you like in each other
complimenting each other other regularly
like there's there's a certain amount of
there's a practice on that side as well
that I is probably under discust no
doubt talk to me about fighting well
I've heard that stat and I will tell you
that I've lived it that the couples that
stay together the longest are the ones
that learn how to fight well yeah yeah
it's John gottman's got some great
research uh that he basically he took
hundreds and hundreds of married couples
put them in a room explicitly asked them
to talk
about whatever they fought about most
recently basically got them fighting in
a room and then he would watched their
behavior and kind of like coded it and
and then tracked those couples over
decades and
then after he saw how many of them stuck
together and how many of them divorced
he kind of like backwards engineered
like what the successful couples were
doing correctly and what was super
interesting that he found was that
successful couples don't actually
resolve a lot of their fights they don't
necessarily they're not trying to
compromise all the time sometimes
successful couples they're just like
yeah we agreed to disagree and we have
this fight every month but whatever like
it's just kind of like a thing we do I
think it's fighting is
inevitable there
are there are some tactical things that
you can do better or worse you know it's
blame so gottman's got he calls him the
Four Horsemen of the relationship
apocalypse I think one is blame one is
stonewalling
uh one
is here I go again four things the
fourth one I I have for you though
because I contempt contempt and that's
like oh if you see a couple that rolls
their eyes which I think is the example
he gives if they roll their eyes at each
other it's like 98% they'll be divorced
in a year or something I mean it was
like a a just startling result and yeah
that man you can't let that creep in
this goes back to you've got to want
your partner to win yes and one thing my
wife and I learned man this this has
really worked well for us is to speak
when fighting to speak in
insecurities so because if you're
getting your backup as my wife would say
if you're really annoyed about something
the odds that someone has triggered an
insecurity of yours borders on 100% oh
yeah and so now it's like okay if you
can identify instead of wanting to win
where you're crafting clever arguments
if you can identify okay this is making
me mad because of this and I'm feeling
insecure about that if diffuses the
fight so fast one you stop arguing what
we call arguing at the level of the tea
because the biggest fight we ever got in
my audience going to be tired of hearing
this the biggest fight we ever got in
was over a cup of tea yeah and I
realized this isn't about the cup of tea
what is this about and that's when I
realized oh [ __ ] I'm insecure about this
and then once I said that and I was like
this is going to be such an Abrupt left
turn because we were arguing like
screaming at each other and I was like
this is going to be super weird but I
just like to backtrack and say the
reason that I'm upset is because I'm
insecure about this and she was like wo
and for her it was like like the six
sense and the movie just played in
reverse and she played that whole thing
back now understanding what I was
actually worried about and I was like
I'm so I did not realize like I I had
not pulled it into my conscious mind
that that's what was driving my behavior
but now that I stop and think about it
it's that yeah and we've carried that
with us now for 20 years it's a great
tactical tool of just like labeling
where the fear or the anger is coming
from on on a deep level
um you also alluded to what I think is
probably the most important kind of
mindset thing which is uh I think a lot
of couples see the relationship itself
as a power
struggle uh that if their partner is
getting too much attention or affection
or is getting more attention and
affection than they are then that's
unfair it should be equaled out and so
they try to bring their partner down a
notch and so that they can come up a not
and it's that is almost by definition a
toxic like what a toxic relationship is
and it's instead you should see it as
again a team it's like us versus the
world right and if you're winning if
you're winning right now that's good for
me right and hopefully one day I'll be
winning too and then you'll be happy for
me and vice versa um but it's hard for a
lot of people because I think a lot of
people's romantic relationships gets it
gets intertwined with uh a lot of their
trauma and deep insecurities from from
early in their life and so it's it's
hard for them if if they are being
triggered in one of the ways that you
just described is very hard to see
somebody who's triggering you as on your
team and so until that perception is
resolved it's it's going to be difficult
to not see the relationship itself as a
power struggle man that that one really
scares me and that's the part of the
modern dating scene that freaks me out
the most is when I hear the most the
most popular voices they certainly are
not giving good advice in my opinion but
the most popular voices they they make
it sound like dating is a thing I've
never seen or heard of before yeah
because it sounds like a battle it's
adversarial it's like me versus you uh
how do I uh keep you from taking
advantage of me and how do I maximize
what I can get out of you it is so like
I'm I'm on their team like for a second
I'm just going to be like okay there
this is where young people are right now
I'm with you I love you I want to see
good things for you but I'm telling you
if you go into this with an adversarial
mindset you will lose every time oh
you're screwed so screwed even and so I
really I want to have more of these
people on the show yeah it puts me it
makes me feel very fatherly in like a
weird way where I'm like no no no like
trust me like there's something
beautiful on the other side of this but
if you're coming at it like that but I
want them to lay out the hardest [ __ ] I
want them to be like yo bro you don't
understand what it's like out here uh
with dating apps and hypergamy and all
this stuff and like guys are getting the
shaft and they just can't be taking
advantage of anymore and these girls are
all on uh uh only fans and so it's like
okay let's let's lay out all the
brutality because clearly something is
happening yeah because it really has
become dysfunctional you've got
declining sex rates you've got marriage
in the toilet fatherlessness I mean it's
just it's not an ideal bundle of things
sure so it's like okay how do we start
teasing some of these things out and I'm
just arrogant enough where I'm like I
really think even in this crazy
environment the path forward is still
the first date that you and I were
talking about yes which is okay I've had
to do a lot of work to actually be
interesting I've had to do a lot of work
to understand like oh I want to know
about you I want to hear about you and
I'm going to take you to a place that
one makes you feel good makes you feel
safe is intriguing and I'm asking you
questions that maybe you haven't even
asked about yourself and not in a way so
I can get one over on you or dunk on you
or whatever by the end of it I want you
to be like damn like I never saw myself
in that way MH and just show people how
rad it feels when somebody is they're
sincere because you can't [ __ ]
people yeah but you're sincerely trying
to elevate them and find interesting
things and you're not playing a game
it's like I'm going to tell you exactly
what I think yeah well it's so I don't
necessarily think this is a modern thing
or not super modern like I think it this
strain of advice this seeing
relationships as a power struggle this
message there it's been cyclical it's
like every generation has had an
iteration of it uh you know my
generation it was the pickup artist
thing in the '90s there was a thing
called the rules uh I think the
generation before that it was the men
Men Are from Mars Women Are from Venus
like there's just this every 10 12 years
there's a new version that pops up and
they look at whatever people's
frustrations are in the dating Market at
that time they use that as a
justification for these unhealthy
relationship behaviors why is it the
crutch why is the power struggle the
thing that lets people
cope I well so if you are a insecure
person who
has been hurt deeply uh whether it be
through rejection or a dysfunctional
family or
whatever I think one of the most
fundamental feelings that you have is
disempowerment you feel like you don't
have control over your own life so when
somebody shows up and starts telling you
uh you know relationships are a power
game you need to follow these tips to
take control and like win back your
power from men or from women it's a very
appealing message to that person because
that person's never experienced a
healthy relationship so they don't know
what a healthy relationship feels like
they've only experienced unhealthy
relationships which are power dynamics
and they've been on the losing end of
those power dynamics so step one in
their head is to get on the winning side
of that power Dynamic and what usually
happens is they do get on the winning
side of that power Dynamic at some point
they they use the advice they they go
get laid or they go get a girlfriend or
a boyfriend or whatever they've
exercised their power and and taken
control and they've realized that that's
not fulfilling at all it's like okay I'm
now I'm I'm getting sex and I have a
partner but it's not enjoyable like we
fight all the time it's feels very empty
and meaningless it's very stressful it's
not adding anything to My Life um and so
they some of them make the jump to the
healthy Rel ships but not all of them do
but it's so I I just think with every
generation you know right now we have
genz is coming of age and you know just
like the Millennials before them there's
there's going to be a massive amount of
demand for this type of content and
material and I think like the
Millennials it'll run its course you
know in 5 years most of gen Z is going
to try a bunch of this stuff and realize
that it didn't make them happy it didn't
really work work they're going to mature
a little bit and they they'll end up
back in healthy relationship land and
then the gener you know 5 six years
after that the generation under them
when we're all in VR headsets or
whatever like there's going to be some
dude standing up saying like this is
what you got to do you got to win the
[ __ ] back and like all this stuff and
we're just going to go through it all
over again so um I do think you know
there are some interesting observations
about the dating market in terms of it
is is not the struggles that men and
women go through are not symmetrical and
this is something like I so I started my
career in dating advice so like I've
written I started writing about this
stuff like 2008 and the asymmetry in
dating problems is uh it is part of the
problem because women only see the
problem that women have they don't see
the problem that men have and so it's
very easy for women to be like wow men
have it so easy they can just you know
send dick pics to 100 women and you know
who the one that responds only that
works yeah right it's like the one that
responds is like you know he he'll
actually go out with her whereas men
only see the men's problems they don't
see the women's problems so they think
oh wow women have it so easy they just
like post a hot picture and they get
like all these uh simps fawning over
them all the time right and they don't
understand that like women don't
understand that men have the issue of
of to to be effective in the dating
Market as a man you have to be willing
to be rejected a lot like that is just a
fact that you're going to have
to make your peace with at some point
and women don't see that and what men
don't see is that if you're a woman if
you're an attractive woman you are going
to get a lot of attention from a lot of
men that you don't want attention from
and that is also something you're going
to figure out how to deal with and I
think what because the two problems on
on each side uh well I think on the
men's side they see the women's problem
and they're like that's not a problem I
would love that problem and but they
don't understand that it is actually a
problem like you filtering
effectively is it is a very difficult
problem for a lot of women and a lot of
them struggle with it quite a bit and I
think
women you know women say like man I I
wish could message 20 guys and get
responses and you know like I wish I had
more control over who I actually got to
talk to uh but they don't they don't see
the rejection side of it they don't see
just like the constant bruising your
self-esteem
takes you know when message after
message goes un un replied to so it's
um it's not easy for anybody and it it
never has been easy for anybody I think
that's another narrative that is very
easy to it's very easy to say like you
know back in your parents generation
they just did this and it was so easy
and it's like well no they they also
struggled with these issues it looked a
lot different it in many ways it was
less complex but that doesn't mean it
was any
easier yeah I very much agree so I had
no game with women
whatsoever like none it's probably good
that I didn't find that Community I was
a little before the pickup artist time
um but I luckily I knew a guy that was
really good with women uh and by then I
was so fed up cuz I I was the guy that
everyone tells you not to be so I would
show up on date one with literal flowers
and literal custom written poetry I once
asked a girl out in a poem like custom
written for her and she rejected did it
no date like I was just like oh God but
I I could not understand why they
weren't working it was everything that I
was told women were into and so it it's
the I lived the nice guy thing I was
never a dick about it but I was starting
to be like I don't understand why this
isn't working like I'm these are good
poems like what the [ __ ] is the problem
and that I was very surprised thankfully
I turn inward and was like I'm doing
something wrong that is very clear to me
I don't know what it is I don't
understand it but I'm doing something
wrong so I went and ask guy who was very
successful and I was just like what do
you do and he's like oh be an [ __ ]
and I was like oh my God and it was one
of I just I was like okay I know that
isn't true I know that's not the path
forward because these are people and
nobody wants to be with an [ __ ] so
what is it that women are drawn to
that's LED this to be the cliche and
that's when I realized oh he's willing
to walk away so what he means is aloof
isn't quite quite the right word but it
has to be that like I'm self assured I
don't need you I might want you but I
don't need you and so it creates a a far
more interesting Dynamic and thankfully
I've been so bad with women there was
this my crush in high school every time
we would date she would break up with me
cuz she's like you're different when
we're together Y and I just could not
understand what she meant now what she
meant was when we were not together I
was just myself we'd get together and
then I was afraid I'd lose her so I
would start being cautious and all that
and so I I was too young couldn't make
it yeah so in my book models I actually
that was the term I used was non-
neediness and as like the root of
Attraction and it's and I think what
happens is a lot of the toxic advice you
know for men the toxic advice is
basically teaching them how to be an
[ __ ] it's basically a guy saying you
know you've been on the losing end of
the power struggle here's how to be on
the winning end of the power struggle
not realizing that it's the power
struggle itself that is the problem yes
and so you know for me non- neediness is
let's take the let's take the part of
being an [ __ ] that benefits you which
is not being needy and and then let's
like lose the [ __ ] part let's be
respectful and non needy how about that
and to me that's like if you can figure
out how to do that like develop the
skill set to be non- needy and
respectful of people which being
respectful requires the willingness to
hear no and be rejected and not not be
but hurt about it uh you know if you can
get to that point then you're pretty
much set and go be awesome at something
yes because you're going to get your own
self resect this is something I worry a
lot about is that people just aren't
earning their own respect and if you
don't earn your own respect that's going
to drip off of you and you're going to
have a very hard time convincing
somebody else to respect you if you
haven't figured that out so being
awesome at something that you care about
ideally being awesome at something you
care about that the kind of woman you're
trying to attract would also care about
that goes a long way but even if you
can't line that up like at least be
really focused and attentive on
something that matters to you that
you're passionate about like people I
know have heard this before it's like
there's something about hearing someone
talk about what they're passionate about
even if you don't care about it even if
you don't know about it when somebody's
like really into something and they're
able to convey that it's like whoa they
light up you realize they have a life
beyond you that that they're more
integrated in some way that Mak makes
them very attractive I know you've said
that you're attracted to women who are
ambitious yeah which I thought was
interesting tell me more about that I
don't know where that comes from it's
just something I noticed over the years
dating a lot of women like I I was never
able
to like I dated a number of women who
were beautiful happy to be like the
traditional like cook dinner for you
when you get home
make the bed for you you know take care
of the house make my life easy like the
very very oldfashioned like you know uh
1950s leave it the beaver type housewife
and I would get so bored so fast and and
there was nothing you know there's
nothing wrong with them it was just the
way they were and they were really nice
nice women but I found that
I I need a woman who is very smart and
very motivated
in in the world to do something in the
world like that's just it turns me on
more than anything and um and I just
learned that about myself like everybody
that doesn't make it right or wrong it's
just different and I do
think one of the problems that people
have you know I do think you need to
this is why you shouldn't well it's not
that you shouldn't marry your high
school sweetheart it's just it's not
odds are against you the odds are
against you is because you do need to be
exposed to a certain number of people in
value systems to really really know and
understand like what you mesh well with
and and what what excites you in a
partner and um and so I do for for
people who have not had enough dating
experience to really have Clarity around
that I do think it's useful I think the
the bad version of that advice is you
need to date around enough to have
enough sex with enough people to that
you like get it out of your system like
that's kind of the bad version of that
advice uh the reason that is the bad
version of that advice is because sex is
not something you get out of your system
it's it's a behavior that you you know
you condition within yourself so if if
you if you start conditioning yourself
to want to have sex with a lot of people
then you're only going to keep wanting
to have sex with a lot of people like it
doesn't work in Reverse um so it's it's
you don't think that people get fed up
and there is that that emptiness that
you were talking about before um I don't
think so I think it's it's kind of like
it's very similar to uh you know so back
in the 60s and 70s they they used to
have this form of therapy where like if
you had anger issues then you like
scream into a pillow and beat the crap
out of the pillow and that was supposed
to like release your anger right like
this it's this concept of like they it's
in in the research they call like the
hydraulic theory of emotion or or uh
impulse and the idea was like you just
get the anger out and then you won't be
angry when you go home well what what it
turns out that actually happens is the
more you scream into that pillow and
punch the pillow the more you're kind of
the same way you're like training
yourself when you compliment your wife
to compliment your wife more you're
training yourself to like scream and
punch pillows more and so you're
actually reinforcing the that's
interesting the emotion you're trying to
get away from practicing being angry and
so I've seen so many young men be like
well I met this woman that I'm crazy
about but you know I've only slept with
like I've only had like five sexual
partners and that doesn't seem like it's
enough I should have more than that
before I settle down with somebody so
I'm going to I'm going to like put like
get rid of this really great
relationship that makes me happy so I
can go [ __ ] five Anonymous strangers
that I'm never going to think about or
care about again and it's like somehow
that seems like a very rational decision
to a lot of young men and I say this as
a as a I used to be a young man that
this seemed very rational to um I can on
the being on the other side of that I
can tell you it's not a rational
decision and having a lot of friends and
and just knowing a lot of men who have
made that choice like it is not the
correct choice you are actually just
reinforcing the behavior that you want
to get out of your system so um so
that's the bad version of that advice
the good version of that advice is you
need to date enough to understand what
makes you happy right like as you said
like a lot a lot of us have
predefined scripts or assumptions about
like what a good partner is things that
our parents told us things that our
church or our teachers or Community told
us and we don't actually know until
we've actually gone out and dated those
people and I think what most people
experience is that you finally date that
person who in your head was the perfect
10 and you get a month into it and
you're like this isn't a 10 this is like
a six like I'm actually not that happy
here and that's that's a very important
thing to realize and understand about
yourself yeah Lisa and I have always
used the analogy of finding somebody
that you really can jam with and be into
for a long period of time isn't like two
puzzle pieces coming together it's like
two ripped pages with all these
intricate Jagged Little edges and
finding somebody that you line up with
enough of those you're like oo this is
like really going to fit is it's I don't
think there's one person for everybody I
think that there's probably a a large
number of people that you could meet no
matter where you live you're going to
find this kind of person but they're not
on every street corner that's for sure
and so if you find it it's like I'm not
interested in like constantly looking
for the next model and that was one
thing that I said to Lisa when we we got
together I was like you never and I mean
never have to worry about me ditching
you and upgrading to a younger version
of you I'm like that's not my scene
that's not the you know experiment that
we're running together here it's like I
want to know what it looks like to build
a life together and so we won't even
joke about the word divorce it's just
not even on the table it's not an option
we wouldn't stay if it was lovess or if
one of us was abusive but it's like
since we know how to avoid that yeah
then it's like that's just not even on
the table and it really does create a
far more interesting Dynamic but yeah
when you've got and I God did I ever
think I need to bang more chicks no I
did not but I will say it became so for
a long time I wanted to save myself for
marriage and then I realized uh that no
longer strikes me as a good idea and so
then it was like okay I did want to have
a certain amount of experience I didn't
have a number in my head where I was
like I need to hit that number but I was
like yeah I don't want to marry the
first person I sleep with that is for
sure yeah I I do think some amount of
sexual experience is probably good to
have but I think the way it gets framed
for a lot of young men is just it's
silly um you know have enough sex to
know what you like and don't like and
date enough people to know what you like
and don't like and then if you find a
great person that it feels great go with
it it's interesting how much at least
for me personality plays into everything
the lonliest I have ever been in my life
was in the middle of having sex with
somebody didn't care about who I just I
didn't have any connection I couldn't
even be like and we both like basketball
like there was nothing yeah and I was
like this is really boring and it was so
ironic to me to be like I'm literally
inside your body and I feel completely
alone like so weird so yeah that was
never going to be the path that I ended
up on yeah but yeah I think
the potential for awkwardness of one
night stands is also under discussed
especially among men and young men like
it's there's there's still so much
validation and self-esteem that it's
like wrapped up in in Sex and and for
men in particular that it's also really
fun it is fun and it can be super fun
like I've had a a lot of one night
stands were that were a blast in great
memories and and I've had a lot of one
night stands that were terrible and
super awkward and completely dis
connected and and embarrassing and it's
but you know people don't talk about
that side of it it it's like the the
enjoyment of a one night stand you know
the hit rate is is not that high like
give me your most awkward one I
stand most
awkward it's been a long time man I
don't know you know there there's just a
number
of well it's usually alol is involved
first of all um you know there there are
a number of instances of you know waking
up the next
day next to a girl that I don't really
remember anything about her oh God not
particularly attracted to her and you
just kind of Wonder like why am I here
but then you know I was so young and
immature at that time that I you know
the the significance of like yeah I got
laid you know kind of outweighed all
that other stuff but you know if I'm
being being honest as an older as an as
as an old man uh if I'm easy Chief since
you're you know much younger than me if
I'm looking back and being honest uh in
a vacuum it was not uh it was not an
enjoyable experience uh and it probably
wasn't for her either
but this is this is so this is back in
the the pickup artist industry this is
what I always used to say and it it
would make guys really really
uncomfortable which is men come to that
industry for for the approval of women
they stay for the approval of men that's
interesting because I think a lot of the
guys like look every guy wants to have
some sexual experiences every guy wants
to be able to have a little bit more
power and options in in his dating life
but the men who obsess over it and like
really kind of become compulsive about
it it's it's never about the women it's
about it's about the approval from other
men and
it's it it took me a long time to kind
of figure that out about myself uh and I
think and it was an important
realization uh and I think it's it's
just something that needs to be said
especially the guys who who like that
sort of content and consume a lot of it
like you're not consuming all that
content for the women
you actually said something that I wrote
down along these lines about what people
are actually pursuing in life I think
this is really interesting this is a
paraphrase but people care about who
they're with what they're pursuing and
what people think about them that's 80
to 90% of Life
yeah that's razor sharp insightful yeah
it's it's I think we like to imagine
that our happiness and meeting is tied
up in all these like very complex at
philosophical issues and at the end of
the day it's like who are you spending
time with what are you working
on and how are you treating yourself
like are you taking care of your health
or not and if you can nail those three
things yeah you're like 80 90% of the
way there like all all the other stuff
is just it's window dressing and what do
you think about from a Buddhist
perspective of detaching letting go
being so obsessed around those if
they're so all consuming and and I agree
with your earlier assessment that you're
never going to not care about what other
people think and you probably shouldn't
even try to not care but it it can
become all consuming and very
pathological yeah so how do the
Buddhists have the right answer to that
like what what is the way to put that in
its proper place I I am
not a strict philosophical Buddhist you
know I see you had a zen teacher you are
exactly the only person I know with a
zen teacher I mean I I I I studied
Buddhism and practiced Buddhism for a
number of years but I it's funny I don't
consider myself a Buddhist I consider
myself influenced by Buddhism I I see a
lot of the Buddhist insights as like
tools right so to me non-attachment
is it's a tool or it is a uh it's kind
of like a mindset or an approach of just
reminding yourself of like
like yes social validation it can make
you happy or unhappy but like don't ever
forget that it's not really real like
these are just these are just uh
chemicals firing in your brain and as
you said like sub routines of of our our
Consciousness and um you know whether
the the friends I had dinner with last
night didn't laugh at my jokes like what
whether that matters or not you know
it's all in my head um so I think that's
a useful perspective to be able to
access at certain moments to kind of
keep yourself stable and
sane I I think Buddhism takes it to an
extreme where it's like nothing matters
like there's nothing exists it's all
imagined um and that may be true but I
don't find that very practical when
you're like trying to live in LA and
have a career and have a family it's
interesting so as you consider yourself
influenced by Buddhism I consider myself
influenced by Daoism and for for quite
some time actually called myself a
Dost uh that led me to exploring
Buddhism looking at it I'm far more
familiar with dosm than I am Buddhism
but the I really looked at the idea of
non-attachment completely letting go and
the irony is I think that they are right
that all of suffering really does stem
from I want this thing and that thing
can be I wanted this outcome from this
moment I wanted the the Christmas to go
better I wanted the joke to be funnier
whatever but it's it's attachment to a
thing a desired outcome whatever and
when I look at my own suffering it is
always tied to that y but I when I
project my life out where I live a
monastic life just like wow I really I
would give up some suffering I wouldn't
suffer as much that is for sure but also
the depth of the joy the honor of being
able to put myself in the arena and see
what I can accomplish yeah and the bad
news is that you know for all I've
accomplished I set my sights higher and
higher which you have warned people not
to do yeah uh but I enjoy that Quest
because I have a very healthy
understanding that the most likely
outcome is failure yeah and so I'm like
okay I'm I'm continually ratcheting this
up at some point you try to climb a
mountain so high you die just like this
hey Mount Everest is literally littered
with the bodies of people that have
tried um so I'm aware of that but even
in the face of that I find myself
wanting to embrace the challenge of
mountain climbing over the and it would
still be a challenge the challenge of a
monastic life it that feels to me like
tapping out you get an amazing reward
for it yeah but it doesn't feel like
making the most of this Human Experience
I I think it sounds I think you and eye
align on this um it's funny I have a
friend who's uh a meditation teacher and
like pretty intense Buddhist and I've
talked to him about this before and the
the point I always come back to is is
like look 2 200 years ago you weren't
giving up a whole lot by going and
sitting in a cave and staring at a wall
for 10 years like there wasn't much
happening outside of that cave either
right so um whereas these days like yeah
there's there's a Hu there's a bounty of
complexity and amazing culture and
society and everything um I think to me
the way I have kind of I guess
integrated the Buddhist wisdom into my
own approach to what you just described
is I think the wisdom that it lends is
when you're climbing that mountain don't
forget that it's just a mountain and you
you chose to climb it and you can you
can choose to stop climbing it at any
time to me that's what non-attachment
means you know I think
it's and in Buddhism the they're very
explicit about this that when
you when you get very good at
non-attachment or even achieve
enlightenment you don't stop suffering
you just stop being attached to that
suffering or identifying with that
suffering it's like suffering just
becomes yet
another Sensation that passes like a
cloud um and so nothing actually
practically changes outward in your life
it's simply the the mental constructs I
guess you could say it's the realization
that everything is simply a mental
construct that is arising and falling
falling in your
Consciousness uh you know I I love the
the old zen Saye where it's they say
before Enlightenment chop W carry water
after Enlightenment chop wood carry
water and
I I relate to that on I guess a much
less profound or spiritual level you
know
just growing older and more successful
like I look at my ambition in my 20s and
maybe you you relate to this but my
ambition in my 20s it was very driven by
like a need to prove something like I
have to I need to make a bunch of money
I need to be successful I need to like
show that I'm smart and that I'm doing
something cool and great and impress a
bunch of people people and then you
achieve a bunch of those things and you
realize that none of it really sticks or
makes you happy and and now it's like
now I just I want to achieve things just
because it's fun to achieve things it's
fun to create things in the world it's
fun to improve lives
and like there's no need to prove
something there's no there's nothing I'm
trying to like show to myself or to to
anybody El really even not to
yourself um yeah it's it but like you
said I I really resonate with you know
it's that comfort with failure you know
it's like I like I'm I'm investing I'm
going to do try do over the next couple
years I'm going to do a bunch of stuff
with my YouTube channel I completely
recognize that it may end up not being
worth it it may not go nearly as well as
I wanted to or hope that that it will
and I'm comfortable with that whereas I
think 10 years ago that that would have
been
mortifying that that idea you know of
like a book coming out and not doing
super well like that would have been
more fortifying 10 years ago or even 5
years ago you know now it's kind of like
well that's just I'm going to have a
long career and I'm not going to hit a
home run every time so um and and and
it's actually very similar to what we
were saying about you know when you're
insecure you see everything as a power
struggle and you want to get from the
losing side to the winning side and then
once you're on The Winning Side you
realize the real way to win is to stop
the power struggle and just opt out of
the game altogether and I think it's the
same with kind of a pursuit of success
you know when you when you've
experienced no success you you just want
to get to success you don't really care
how uh but then once you get to success
you're like wow I don't feel any
different and so then you just realize
that that the construct of success is
completely made up and you've been
torturing yourself for 10 years for no
reason it's interesting success is is
such a a mixed bag because I think you
will agree that the uh money's real it's
very powerful but it cannot change how
you feel about yourself n and people
think it's going to make them feel cool
Y and it doesn't and all of your
insecurities I remember when it
literally for me was in an instant I had
spent God knows how long building
companies but the day that the money hit
was like all in one refresh of my
banking app and I was like oh wow uh
what's the mark TW quote wherever you go
there you are it's like however much
money you have there you are it's like
it didn't matter and I was like oh God
thankfully I already knew that so it was
not like some big surprising moment but
I thought this is how people really
spiral out of control because they're
expecting in that moment for you know
something to change and for the world
have more colors or something and it's
like oh I'm in this new class and
everything is different but money really
does buy cool [ __ ] and you can do
amazing things was actually really
interesting hearing you talk about Will
Smith for people that don't know you
wrote ghost wrot wrote no your name's in
the thing not co-wrote his um
autobiography
and that the fact that you've been able
to see firsthand how somebody of like
his stature moves through the world it's
pretty interesting yeah but you said yes
but I'm glad it's not my life yeah and
that I thought put a pretty interesting
point on it yeah I think there's an
optimal level of Fame and I'm probably
pretty close to it already maybe a
little bit past it um I would not want
to be as famous as him
um the the money I mean sure I'll take
Will Smith money like I would have no
complaint about Will Smith money I don't
need Will Smith money but I that's not
the problem it's I definitely think you
know the curve of Happiness to fame is
is a bell curve and um of declining
utility
so Peaks and then goes back down and I
think there's actually very large costs
on like far on the other side
um that yeah I don't like you lose
privacy you there's security concerns
there's all sorts of stuff you know
um I I think I think the optimal level
of Fame is pro probably where both of us
are at you know it's like you get
recognized on the street just enough to
like make your day but never interferes
with your life yeah I feel invisible
yeah still which is lovely but every now
and then yeah someone will come up and
it's like ah you're like ah that feels
good yeah that's cool brother I'm So
Into what you're doing I can't wait to
see what you do on YouTube where can
people follow you uh follow me on
YouTube Mark Manson or markmanson.net I
like it all right everybody if you
haven't already be sure to subscribe and
until next time my friends be legendary
take care
peace watch this video to learn my
personal process to achieve any goal and
completely change your life it's become
so bizarre in society where we are
celebrating people that are not pushing
their physical limits and I'm just
telling you right now I don't pass any
moral judgment on anybody that decides
that they don't want to do that but I
will tell you 1,000