Kind: captions
Language: en
we are about to go into a potentially
devastating economic period And I think
that it's really freaking a lot of
people out knowing how stories thoughts
emotions will determine the quality of
Our Lives
what can we do to master our negative
thinking
well I think what
things to say is I don't see thinking as
either negative or positive
our emotions and our thoughts have
evolved to help us to adapt and to
survive and to be effective in our lives
and so uh we yes we experience some of
our thoughts and our emotions as
uncomfortable let me ask why do negative
emotions suck so much if they're useful
because they're really miserable
Charles Darwin was one of the first
people to describe how our difficult
emotions help us to communicate they
helping us to communicate with ourselves
and other people and so you know when we
are sitting in a place that feels tough
yes it feels tough but often what that
tough feeling is about is saying gee
something matters here there's something
that I need to pay attention to there's
something at stake and so the difficult
emotions feel really tough but what they
are pointing to what they are
signposting is often something that we
care about something that we value in
our lives and something that we want to
move towards and so Tom it's such a
beautiful question that you ask in
launching straight in which is how do we
deal with difficult thoughts and
emotions for example when we're facing
into an economic crisis
and
the traditional way that one might
answer this question is
just stay positive just be resilient uh
just keep a good attitude
and
that sounds innocuous on the surface it
sounds like every single piece of
motivation that we ever hear is this
just be positive and so it probably
sounds
odd to say that just being positive can
actually make one less resilient it
probably sounds odd to say just being
positive can actually make one fragile
but actually the research supports that
because the research is very clearly
pointing to the direction that when we
just be positive
in the face of difficult circumstances
then we are not living in the world as
it is do you think this has to do with
unprocessed emotions
I think that The Narrative of just being
positive has a number of
contributors the first is that we live
in a world in which being happy is
literally bound into the Declaration of
Independence like it it feels like just
being positive and just being happy is a
Birthright
and so you land up having this really
tough experience which is that
the fragility of life holds hands with a
beauty you cannot go through life you
cannot go through Business
Without experiencing heartbreak without
experiencing economic challenge without
uh
finding yourself in a situation in which
you are perhaps unhealthy or healthy you
know the reality of life is that beauty
and fragility hold hands with one
another and so when we live in a society
that says you've just got to be happy
what we often find is that people then
start beating themselves up when they
feel anything less than happy and so
we're not developing the skills that
help us to navigate the reality of the
world as it is right that's what I want
to talk about so I am ever since covid
kicked off I have really been worried
about people at large just like the
general population being able to at
first I thought it was going to be
purely economic and then it became like
the sort of looming Health crisis Mental
Health crisis of being isolated and
Alone
um and now we're sort of background to
the economic crisis again and when I
think about people being able to
navigate this well and this idea of
mastering your negative thoughts you
have a really unique voice in that
you're telling people to you don't use
the word lean in but it's like that
there is information to be taken from
the negativity and so as we go into what
I think is going to be a difficult time
is part of your what you would encourage
people to do is to recognize don't try
to run from the pain or the difficulty
it's a signal of what's really happening
you need to be able to assess the world
as it actually is what I always tell
people is you need an interpretation of
what's Happening that is both true and
optimistic do you agree with both of
those or do you think just true and
optimism may be actually a red herring
well true yes because it did not you
know reality will always have its way
and so you know it it when we deal with
difficult emotions often what happens is
people do one of two things in ways that
are unhealthy the first is we get stuck
in our difficult emotions we brewed on
them we ruminate we obsess you know you
talk you spoke about uh the looming
economic crisis and you can see how
often what we can do is we can just
dwell in and get stuck in these
difficult emotions in a way that
actually paralyzes us so this is what's
called brooding the opposite which looks
so different on the surface is saying
something like I'm just going to be
positive I'm just going to push through
I'm just going to get on with it
uh and it it sounds the opposite it
sounds like actually what you're doing
is you're just ignoring those difficult
emotions and in many ways you are and
what's really interesting is both
brooding and what I've just described
which is bottling both of those are
unhealthy ways of dealing with our
difficult emotions so a really important
part of fine and maybe this is where
you're already going but can we Define
unhealthy because I bottle like crazy it
is super effective in terms of getting
things done yeah but why Define
unhealthy I think that okay so if you
are going for a job interview and your
girlfriend broke up with you the night
before yes by all means put your
difficult emotions aside and go in for
the job interview and put on your best
show when I'm talking about unhealthy uh
bottling
this is an a strategy that is actually
an avoidance strategy it's basically a
strategy that says I'm having these
difficult emotions I'm having these
difficult thoughts but I'm not going to
face into them I'm not going to learn
from them I'm not going to connect with
them instead I'm just going to think
positive and I'm just gonna get on with
it and often what we do is we do this
with really good intentions the
intention is that I've got a project
that I've got to move forward with or
I've got an interview that I've got to
do I've got a relationship that I'm
trying to be in but the problem with
uh bottling and the definitional aspect
of what makes it unhealthy is that you
doing it in a consistent and persistent
way and that you never go back to those
difficult emotions
if you are unhappy in your job
and you say to yourself well at least
I've got a job at least I've got a job
at least at least I've got a job it's
fine
what we find is that five years later
that person is still unhappy in their
job
but they've now lost five years they
haven't used the signpost the data that
emotions are giving them to say oh
you're unhappy in your job why because I
need greater levels of meaning or I need
greater levels of learning and so when
we turn away from ourselves
and when we turn away from
these extraordinarily beautiful parts of
ourselves which are our emotions
basically waving at us and saying see me
and learn from me then we are unable to
adapt effectively and so one of the most
popular
Notions in our current world is that
we've got to just grit you know we've
just got to persistently grit through
but there is a world of difference
between being stubborn versus being
stupid
okay like if something is values aligned
if it has a chance of success if it is
something that uh
when you are looking through the light
of day in a realistic way
you like yes this thing is for me then
by all means grit but when you're having
difficult emotions that are saying to
you actually maybe this thing isn't
going to work out this thing might be a
relationship it could be a hope or a
dream
at that point keeping on gritting
through has a real opportunity cost
and so when we ignore those difficult
emotions we also
turn ourselves away from the ability to
adapt and to be effective in our lives
emotions are really confusing though
so here is one I think it's important to
plant a flag on the following idea
there's pathology on both sides so you
can ignore your emotions and that
becomes pathology and you can give in to
your emotions constantly and that's
pathology yes and I've heard you say
that our emotions are data not
directives and so people need to be
careful not to be in the grips of their
emotion we will definitely get into that
but Okay so we've got that idea yeah
there's pathology on both sides you have
to be careful now what's interesting is
I think you and I may be on I don't
think either of us spill into pathology
but I think we're on different sides of
the if you were going to air maybe too
far on the like it's okay to sit with
your negative emotions and make friends
with them I would certainly err on the
side of bottling them up
um which I have found to be effective
but I am very cognizant of the fact that
if you are not careful
that your emotions will go underground
and you won't understand them and I live
in Terror of not understanding my
emotions yeah the problem is they're
very confusing yeah and so as you when
you said when you look at it in the cold
light of day and you're being realistic
it was that's very close to what you
just said and I thought but man really
knowing if you're being realistic is
hard yeah so how do you encourage people
or teach people maybe it's a better word
to figure out what their emotions
translate to into logic or words so I
just want to firstly Circle back to the
bottling and brooding because you know
when I use the word unhealthy I think
it's useful to describe what I mean by
that
when you are stuck in a difficulty
motion
what is owning you the difficulty motion
is owning you
you're not in your life you're not
seeing your child you aren't able to
connect effectively in your relationship
because you are so immersed in that
difficult emotion
and so brooding on our difficult
emotions is unsurprisingly associated
with lower levels of mental health of
well-being of uh
a likelihood that if you feel depressed
that depression will continue
um and also a difficulty in actually
problem solving in your life because
it's almost like if you imagine your
difficulty emotions are pile of books
and you're holding those books so close
to you with such tightness
you are unable to breathe and to connect
and to let go and so that is the impact
of brooding and that's why I say
brooding is unhealthy
but let's look at the opposite it looks
so different
just push through just be positive just
ignore your difficult emotions
when we do this we are holding the books
so tightly away from us that our arms
get tired that we are unable to be with
ourselves that we are unable to see
ourselves and so
consistent bottling of difficult
emotions pushing them aside is
associated with lower levels of problem
solving because you aren't facing into
the reality lower levels of relationship
Effectiveness because the person is not
experiencing you as vulnerable and
authentic and as it turns out lower
levels of mental health and well-being
and so the question there then really
becomes
what is it that emotional health looks
like
you know what is healthy from an
emotional perspective and what we know
is that we need to have two
aspects of emotional health that hold
hands with one another
the first is going to our difficult
emotions going to is looking at them
assessing it looking at them not getting
stuck in them because we own our
emotions they don't own us
so
looking at them trying to understand
what the emotion is signposting that is
important to us and let me give you an
example of what I mean here
if you feel bored
you can be bored in a loving
relationship
you can be
bored in a busy busy workplace
that boredom might be signaling that you
need more learning and growth
and it's an opportunity for you to face
toward your partner
and create greater levels of depth and
connection to maybe have conversations
that you haven't been having for years
what is up my friend Tom bilyu here and
I have a big question to ask you how
would you rate your level of personal
discipline on a scale of one to ten if
your answer is anything less than a 10
I've got something cool for you and let
me tell you right now discipline by its
very nature means compelling yourself to
do difficult things that are stressful
boring which is what kills most people
or possibly scary or even painful now
here is the thing achieving huge goals
and stretching to reach your potential
requires you to do those challenging
stressful things and to stick with them
even when it gets boring and it will get
boring building your levels of personal
discipline is not easy but let me tell
you it pays off in fact I will tell you
you're never going to achieve anything
meaningful unless you develop discipline
right I've just released a class from
Impact Theory university called how to
build Ironclad discipline that teaches
you the process of building yourself up
in this area so that you can push
yourself to do the hard thing things
that greatness is going to require of
you right click the link on the screen
register for this class right now and
let's get to work I will see you inside
this Workshop from Impact Theory
University and tell them my friends be
legendary peace out
how do you get people so my my
fundamental question though is
you could be bored in a loving
relationship because the other person is
boring you could be bored in the loving
relationship because you've stopped
having sex it's exciting for you like
how do you know which it is like this
emotions feel a little bit like dream
interpretation where it's like yeah yeah
well but it could be this well well let
me ask you this so if you're feeling
bored in a relationship
that bottom is often signposting
something that we value
okay so I find that a lot of people are
blind to it though that they really
can't figure out what like when I so I
think that I'm uh good at this kind of
thing and when I think about how much
time and attention it takes me to get to
a conclusion I'm like yo how does the an
average person that just this isn't how
they're required for better or worse
like how do they get to those don't I
don't think that one needs to overly
complicate like I'm not talking about
every morning you know sitting in German
I'm being by all means if you want to
sit in journal in the morning I found
journaling very helpful in difficult
times in my life
but but you know what happens is
all of us at some point move into
different spaces where we go on to
autopilot
where we're just going through our days
is that where we're in the grips of an
emotion like we're just sort of we're
not looking at it and so we're just
riding along we we just we're we're
riding along we've got our job we
haven't actually stopped to say what is
it that I value here am I living the
life that I want am I doing something
that is important to me and it's
extraordinary how often when you say to
people like what are the things that you
value people say I've got no idea
I've got no idea what I value
um yes I'm earning a living yes I'm an
entrepreneur starting this new business
but I've got no idea what I value and
when I'm talking about values here what
I'm talking about are things like
learning collaboration fairness
connection relationship you know there
are these beautiful
values that are so grounding to us as
people and when the world is changing
around us whether that world is changing
because of covert or because of an
economic forecast we can often feel
flipped around by the world and it is so
crucial for us to have a relationship
with ourselves
to have a relationship that is
this relationship that is a seeing of
the self
and so how do we get to that point how
do we get to that point we often are
getting to that point through our
difficult emotions yep so I'm going to
say that in my words and then you tell
me where we go with this okay
your subconscious is kicking up to you
it's trying to communicate but the
subconscious does not speak in uh words
it speaks in feelings emotions if you
damage the region of the brain that
processes emotions people can't make
decisions yeah you would think they
would become coldly logical but they do
not become incapable of deciding so we
know emotions play an absolutely
critical role so you've got the
subconscious trying to let you know that
something is going on that you need to
assess uh my guess is that well this is
how I deal with it I slow down I create
literal silence
I try to still my mind yeah that puts me
in a calm and creative state as I put
words on it yeah that allow different
regions of my brain to connect that
otherwise might not connect so that I
can suddenly put words to that feeling
of oh my God this is about this yeah
then I force myself to write it in a
single sentence and if I can't write it
in a single sentence I know I don't
understand it yet and I will journal and
journal and journal and journal
literally I have journaled sometimes
thirty thousand words forty thousand
words that's the length of a book yeah
to try to like figure out
what is this again just trying to get so
I can say it in a single sentence so
when I say it my subconscious goes yep
that's it yeah and I'm like okay now I
know what this is does that ring as a
universal approach it's so powerful and
actually what you're describing then is
that you are not someone who bottles
their emotion
that's really interesting so I'm the
king of bottling but if you come back to
it yes you come back to it and this this
is
the this is the Cornerstone of emotional
health
the Cornerstone of emotional health is
this recognition that we go through the
day and not every emotion do we need to
stop and inquire about but when you've
had a couple of weeks of feeling
disquiet about a relationship or about a
job or you're feeling sad or you're
feeling burnt out you there's so many
experiences that we have
again we live in a world that tells us
to just be positive and push through but
when we do this we paradoxically become
less resilient because we are now not
facing into the signal that this
disquiet is bringing to us and let me
give you some examples of what I'm in
here you know I've already said like
border might be signposting that you
need more learning and it might be that
that learning is in your relationship
what might be that your learning is in
your job or with your friendships
grief
grief many of us in these past couple of
years have been through a process of
grief
whether that is grief of
a parent someone who's actually
physically with us no longer or grief of
what was once in my assumptions of what
the world could agree for that okay for
sure so there's grief
and
the the impulse when we feel grief
is to just keep going just keep going
but there is such beauty of our recall
periods in my own life when I've been in
grief
there's such beauty grief is love
you know grief is love grief is love
looking for a home grief is that person
that you've lost saying see me remember
me
connect with me
and there is something so profound and
human and Powerful
and non-hustling
that's
at stake in the Turning towards that let
me give you some other examples
um anger
you know anger we can we can brood on
our anger brooding we get hooked on our
Twitter feed we get stuck inside being
right bottling is I'm just getting on
with my life
but when we feel a sense of anger often
that anger might be signaling that
fairness is important to us or Equity is
important to us or something that we see
when we watch the news shows that a
value that is important to us is being
contravened but it could also be
pettiness and an ugly and this is
security hiding inside of you yes and
this is why it is not about getting
hooked on the difficulty motion but
rather recognizing that our emotions are
data that our emotions our data they
signpost things that we care about but
they are not directives just because I
feel angry doesn't mean I need to have
it out with everyone
our emotions our data they are not
directives and I'll give you you know
yet another example that I think was so
powerful during these past couple of
years is people described how
they felt really lonely
you know you can be lonely in a crowd
you can be lonely
in a house with a loved one
because as we come to the kitchen we
turn away from that person we on our
phones they're on their phones
and loneliness
signposts a need for intimacy and
connection
so when we turn away from these parts of
ourselves we also turn away from
the beauty and messiness of our
humanness
I want to go back to the idea of problem
solving so as you're describing this I'm
like man people really have to
understand though what the root cause is
there's there is something utterly
fascinating to me about you so when I
look at the same problems that you look
at yeah you there's like a light in your
eyes there's you talk a lot about the
beauty of the conflict and you know the
Bittersweet nature like before we
started rolling there's really something
there for you that you love about like
the you know that Bittersweet nature of
life and so one of the notes that I took
is
um
I'm I wonder how you feel about the idea
of risking real tragedy now before you
answer that I want to bring it back to
what made me start this so I have a
feeling so you look at these things and
and to you there's like a real Beauty
there I look at them and think most
people are going to get eaten alive by
that because it
and maybe this is just me and every
Theory as autobiographical so I can help
it reveal myself uh that most people are
driven by their insecurities that's
certainly true for me yeah and they get
lost they don't understand the impulse
I have the very good fortune of
recognizing when I'm being petty or
insecure yeah and I stopped running from
that a long time ago so I can look at it
and just be like oh that's interesting
I'm insecure about that thing that's
Petty that's gross I don't like that
myself I can adjust my behavior my
emotions my data not directives all of
that makes all the sense in the world to
me
but there's 37 reasons why somebody
might feel lonely in a house with
somebody they love and finding out which
one it is is really hard and that
process to me fills me with uh intensity
is probably the right word it might look
like aggression to most people
uh so
how knowing because my whole thing
you were so uniquely good at helping
people
um deal with the complexity of an
emotional life yeah thank you oh I've
spent my life in this no I mean this is
amazing you're one of the one of the
only people I've ever heard talk about
the the sort of good and bad that
there's pathology on both sides like all
that stuff
um
but as people are as we step into this
difficult time yeah
we know that people need to create a
space between the stimulus and the
response but my question is how do they
create that space
and
knowing that
as they really face their emotions and
recognize that I'm bored at my job or
I'm bored in my relationship and I need
to make a change
that when we take bold decisive action
we risk tragedy
because you may lose your job or leave
your job now and as we go into a
pandemic and your life gets worse yeah
whole part of what I talk to is a
thirsty being compassionate with
yourself
because it's very easy to talk about
emotions and we've got a good emotions
and we've got to learn from emotions and
but but learning from emotions and going
to emotions even though it is actually
crucial
to our well-being
uh it takes courage it takes courage to
face into a relationship that isn't
working and that feels like it's not
values connected
it takes courage to have a difficult
conversation
uh
growth takes courage learning takes
courage like this takes courage and so a
really crucial part of
my work
is not about
going to difficulty emotions in a way
that is
clinical and hard and and
I see
it's actually rather about going to
ourselves with love
and I say this Tom because I think that
the world
invites us into an unseeing of ourselves
the models that we have of success or
that there's an A and there's a b
and that you you just get from A and B
you know you just do it
what we don't talk about
is the messy metal
we don't talk about the confusion we
don't talk about the um
that liminal space the space of not
knowing which my direction could be or
should be
and so
I think that when we fail to
move into that liminal space and do so
with compassion
what we do is
compassion that it's hard to human
compassion that compassion that you
don't always have the answers compassion
you know there's this beautiful uh Greek
philosopher heraclitus heraclitus
describes this idea that I think is just
so extraordinary and of course so true
which is he says
you can never step into the same river
twice what does he mean by that what he
means by that is that the world is
always changing
and that we as human beings are always
changing
and yet our models of success suggest
that there is
something known that is out there and
it's only up to us to just step into it
and the models of success suggest that
something that you wanted when you were
20 are things that you're going to want
when you're 40 or when you're 60 and
they are
false ways of humaning
because that way of human and keeps us
stuck
and so you then say okay well if I
change and if the river's changing the
river here being the environment then
how do I deal with the uncertainty and
we deal with the uncertainty by becoming
more Adept with emotions because with
uncertainty is going to be confusion is
going to be doubt is going to be
complexity and so I think you know
really what you are getting to hear is
so profoundly important which is
which of the 37 answers is the answer
and what I am saying is
instead of trying to just rush to the
answer
there is power in slowing down
in slowing down into the liminal space
and and Tom an example of this is
when we've when we've moved into our
future when we move into an economy when
we move into a pandemic when we move
into whatever these experiences are the
impetus is always to have the answer
and sometimes in fact very frequently if
we just slow down there is such beauty
and creativity and growth that happens
in the not knowing and I know that
you've experienced this I know that like
it's not like when you're starting a new
business that you suddenly wake up in
the morning and you're just like oh this
is what the business is this is the
business plan the this is the strategy
these are the answers no there is a
space of confusion of trying things out
in your mind of an Unknowing
and so when we give ourselves permission
to be in confusion
with my team I have I committed at the
beginning of the year I said to them
we are going to treat the messy middle
The Space Between A and B
the space between the start and then the
outcome
we're going to treat the messy middle as
a sacred beautiful space not as oh
there's something wrong with me not as
oh I don't know which answer it is but
we are going to treat the space as a
sacred beautiful space and what I mean
by that is when I'm working with my team
and we're like which direction are we
going to go in with this technology how
are we going to build this thing we're
trying to build
we've now moved into a languaging around
the space where we as a an individual
and as a team we say huh
that's interesting I think we're in the
messy middle
can I give people a mile marker to your
superpower here oh I don't know tell me
so well you don't you're not compounding
your problems
so what I like about so for people that
don't know you have a book called
emotional agility brilliant book we
covered it last time in our first
interview together which people should
watch
um and the idea of being able to move
easily from one emotion to the next that
space we were talking about Victor
Frankel is somebody I'd like to hear
more of your thoughts on but that idea
between stimulus and response there is a
space but you have to create that space
you certainly you should make that space
bigger and give yourself the time to
react well uh that seems to be where you
shine where your
so I heard a very interesting thing and
it it allows me to predict the world
more accurately so whether it's
literally true or just predictively true
it's nonetheless effective and that is
that the presence of estrogen makes
sitting with an emotion easier than not
having it which makes my ability to
predict my wife and why she's just okay
like she doesn't want me to solve the
problem she just wants me to listen but
I'm like this is so uncomfortable even
her feeling like that we should talk
about emotional contagions yeah but me
catching her emotion is so unpleasant
that I'm like yo we have to solve this
problem
now when I heard that for her it's not
that the problem is any less painful
it's that being in pain is not as
problematic
and I was like whoa so that is so
beautiful yes and it feels true that
certainly defines the difference between
my wife and I
um and when I hear your
advice and the way that you think
through these problems it seems like
that is the real PowerPoint that don't
make your problem worse by trying to
rapidly get out of it like you need to
be able to sit with it assess it yes and
then make a decision I want to Circle
back to something that we started
talking through earlier but there's a
beautiful closure that happens here
which is
are set for Effective emotion processing
we need two things and I started with
the go-to
going to emotions naming emotions
labeling understanding the signpost that
emotions are pointing us to and also
being compassionate and we can talk more
about that because I know that's it's a
really important part of
how to human because it's it's hard to
human it's hard to human nowadays I've
noticed ah I think we all live it's it's
really hard like it's hard to human and
so going to emotions is a crucial part
of emotional effectiveness
but I said there were two things the
other part of it is going through
emotions
going through emotions is where you now
say
okay the value that this emotion is
signposting which is learning or
connection or intimacy or change
the value that this emotion is
signposting asks me invites me to take
action
in other words I think that in a way one
of the things that you were pointing to
a subtext of what you're pointing to is
like gee am I going to get stuck in the
difficulty motion am I going to get
stuck in it but no because when emotion
signposts the things that we care about
what it's actually inviting us to do is
to take a step towards that thing to
reach out with love to
to think about okay well if I need more
growth what are ways even in my current
context that I could get more growth in
my life
and so there is an impetus not to
circumvent through false problem solving
but rather move towards problem solving
that is guided
by your inner core you know I think of a
gymnast
I think of a gymnast who has the strong
inner core
and
all of the moves change and the the
audience claps and there's music and
there's all of the stuff that's going on
around the gymnast
and it is the inner core that allows the
gymnast to land and to regain balance
and when the world is changing around us
and even when we are changing inside of
us there is this inner core of these
emotional capacities
this ability to say hmm what is this
emotion signaling to me what is this
disquiet let me sit with it let me not
judge the messy middle but rather
recognize that this is a space yes it's
confusing but it's also a space of
potential creativity and growth so let
me not rush out of it let me just be
with it for a while not be stuck in it
but be with it for a while
and as I stopped sense making from that
I am then able to go through those
emotions and what do I mean by going
through I mean taking steps that are
values aligned putting your hand up for
the difficult project because it now it
feels growth oriented going out to
dinner with your loved one and asking a
question or going to a place that feels
extraordinary about your hopes and your
dreams and maybe a place that you've
turned away from through the complacency
of the life that you've been living and
so it's the go-to
and it's the go through but the go
through is guided
by a strong inner core of our values and
a seeing of the self rather than an
unseeing
this is super powerful so I want to talk
about the idea of developing that strong
core of value so you talked earlier
about people needing most people don't
even know what their values are I think
a lot might be hiding in values when I
think about my own life and how I've
been able to navigate difficult things
and still move forward
um
let me run an idea by you yeah very
curious yeah yeah about this I want to
come back to journaling as well yes I
think it's a really important part super
powerful so I have a feeling that people
would be very well served to put values
in place around the idea of regrets and
the reason that I have rules in my life
and that I have values in my life is I
want to say an abject failure on a world
stage if I screw this up what story am I
going to tell myself about myself
because ultimately it doesn't matter
what the world thinks about me it
matters what I think about me if the
whole world hates me but I really
believe in myself and believe I did the
right thing and all that I'm going to be
fine if the world loves me but I think
I'm a total failure it's not going to
matter
so when I think about putting rules in
my life and coming up with the values
and my rules are based on my values
which is why you're tying those two
things yeah so coming up with the value
system and then putting rules in place
I do that because if I were to embarrass
myself in some catastrophic way if I
were I think about this a lot if I were
to make my my wife's life worse very
telling that I don't think about my own
but if I were to make my wife's life
worse I would have to know that I was at
least pursuing the right values and that
the suffering that I have brought upon
others yeah is at least
um Valiant and that I was attempting to
do the right thing it's not interesting
that word I think uh hit something so
what do you think about that idea the
idea that like regrets are real
how you think about yourself matters a
lot yeah and that if you don't have your
values in place you won't ever risk
tragedy because all you can see is that
tragedy was bad and I'm not going to put
myself in that position but if you have
a value system that mandates you risk
tragedy
then it becomes worth it
I love I love the depth of this I think
that
um what you describe is so
powerful
you mentioned a little bit
earlier social Contagion
social contagion is the very interesting
psychological phenomenon where we get
caught up in other people's emotions and
behaviors
so you might be in a workplace where
everyone's feeling stressed and busy and
or you read the news and everyone stress
the news and you start feeling those
things we also know we have behavioral
contagion behavioral contagion is where
we live in a particular environment and
we start picking up without even
realizing it on the behaviors of others
so we know in large-scale
epidemiological studies that if someone
in your social network gets divorced
it's significantly increases the
likelihood that you will get divorced
which is extraordinary if you are on an
airplane this one freaks me we we and I
say airplane and are known in the US we
say airplane
um but if you are on an airplane and
someone
sits next to you
and you do not even know the person and
you are trying to be healthy
and that seat partner buys candy
70 it increases the likelihood by 70
that you will buy candy and sweet things
too that's insane so I you know
how do you protect against social
contagion how do you protect and and I'm
using these as micro examples of
something that is actually
much more than a micro It ultimately
determines whether you are living the
life that you want this is so it's so
scary it's so the the it is social
contagion is so
powerful
uh we saw it at the beginning of the
pandemic we saw how people were grabbing
toilet paper you know this is catching
behaviors from other people and this is
what I'm talking about in terms of the
difficulty of assessing your emotions
and so and this is where what you talk
about and I think what you stringing is
something much more powerful actually
even than what I'm saying and I'd love
to move to it which is the risk of
tragedy because I think there's there's
a through line there that is really
important but what I want to um before
we get there say is that what can happen
with social contagion is we get lulled
into autopilot oh someone else is
driving this kind of car I want to drive
it someone else's wearing these clothes
someone else doing this kind of job
everyone's selling their stocks everyone
we all get lulled into social contagion
and so we ask ourselves the most crucial
question which is how do we protect
against it
how do we protect against it and the
strongest answer that we have from
science is by knowing what your values
are
so let me play out an example which is
if you in conversation with your
gorgeous wife and she's upset about
something and you find yourself getting
immersed in her upset or in her anger as
an example
but you know front and center that the
relationship is so important to you and
that clean communication and Clarity of
communication is a value that you want
to hold to we know that when people have
taken a little bit of time to affirm and
identify what their values are
they are more likely to be protected
from social contagion and I want to give
you an example of how this plays out
imagine you are someone who's grown up
in a community in which no one in your
community goes to college
okay so every single piece of
context that you've been in has said we
aren't College material we don't go to
college we're not that up that's not Who
We Are okay
but imagine you
have a passion and an interest
and so you study hard and you make your
way to college and you finally get there
okay
there is going to come a time in college
and in life
when we fail
when we have an exam and we do really
badly when things don't go according to
plan
and
at that point when that student is in
college
and they take a test and they fail the
test
there is a significant likelihood that
they will drop out
and it's so interesting because we
always think of biases as things that
other people have about us
and yet what you start seeing is if you
grow up in an X environment or a y
environment you in times of stress start
to turn the bias against yourself oh
they were right all along maybe I'm not
cut out for this maybe there's no point
in even trying oh maybe I am unworthy
okay and so we know that at that crucial
juncture and again I give this just as
an example but it can plant in any
context in life
at that crucial juncture what we start
to do is we start to turn biases
against ourselves oh they were right all
along maybe I'm not College I'm obsessed
with this idea it's so fascinating then
you start saying what is it that
protects people
from becoming self-biased
from having a narrative
that is not a narrative that they want
to live into but is a narrative that in
times of stress starts to rear its head
and to own them what protects them
and we know that if we take that college
student and we ask them
to just on their first day of going into
college spend 10 minutes 10 minutes
writing about why are you studying this
thing why is this course that you are
unimportant for you and in your life
what is your purpose here
we know that that 10 minutes literally
protects the person three years down the
track from dropping out so now let's get
let's get generalized you're going into
a difficult relationship into a a
business where you believe in it where
it's purpose connected but where
anything could change where the world is
uncertain this is why having this core
being the gymnast with your values is so
crucial because when you know what your
values are
when you know why you're doing this
thing
we are more likely to be able to stay
the course
and we are more likely to be able to in
your words
risk tragedy
and what I want to say is
we may be risking
tragedy
but the true tragedy
the true tragedy is when we don't know
what our values are
and
when we are
literally risking
Our Lives
and what I mean here is we are risking
our lives in an autopilot a tragedy of
never living the tragedy of not living
what is up my friend you and I are
living in a golden era of
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Kaizen which by the way gets its name
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Improvement all right back to today's
episode yeah yeah oh my God so to your
point about humaning is hard uh
yes it is extraordinarily difficult
emotions are signposts to a value system
that you've never taken the time to
write down that you've been developing
since you were a little kid often shaped
wildly by trauma as a kid yeah when your
brain was still like half baked yeah oh
my God all of this stuff creating this
it's feeding your subconscious mind your
subconscious mind does not have the uh
effect of speaking to you and words as
we were talking about earlier so now you
get these feelings something doesn't
feel right you feel off but you also
feel a tremendous sense of fear when you
look at yeah what change might bring the
unknown the liminal space which that
whole idea is fairly new the the at
least the word liminal but now I have
like completely fallen in love with like
that in between moment where everything
is beautiful
and terrifying yes and this is where
most people get stuck and this is why
people don't make progress in their life
and so when I ask how do we Master our
negative emotions it's exactly this like
you have to get into that messy middle
you have to Define your values you have
to take the time to journal he said you
wanted to get back to that you've got to
take the time to write this stuff down
get clarity of your own ideas and some
of this isn't even getting Clarity it's
creating Clarity there's no Clarity to
be had that already exists right exactly
like you have to yes take the time to
say yes here's my best like go at what I
think I should value
over time you will see whether they work
or not but so that idea you were saying
about
um that you become self-biased yeah in
moments of stress based on something
that you learned a long time ago this is
why I am utterly convinced that zip code
based poverty has everything to do about
mindset and very little to do with
actual money because they say you go
from a t-shirt to t-shirt and three
generations meaning if you start broke
you can get wealthy but you'll be back
to broke because what ends up happening
is the ideas the even the the pain that
that person had to like when I think
about my own obsession with success it's
because I felt like I lacked as a kid
right I wanted for things that I wasn't
able to get them and so I was like I'll
never feel like this again and so you
overcompensate and you just go now if I
had a kid and raise them and they never
wanted for anything the odds of them
having the fire in their belly that I
have is virtually zero and so them doing
all all the suffering and everything
that I've done to get what I've gotten
yeah just not going to happen so you
take somebody that grows up in the inner
cities I actually so impact Theory
exists because someone looked me in the
eye when I was trying to get them to
believe in their own future and they
said well my mom told me that the world
doesn't want people who look like me to
succeed and I was like what the [ __ ]
yeah
think like that yeah so you're from
South Africa Nelson Mandela is arguably
the most influential person in my life
though I've never met the man but
reading his book long walk to freedom
and he said he got in a plane where the
pilot was black and he was like freaked
out he was like whoa whoa black people
can't fly a plane and he was like oh my
God like how could I as a black man
think that yeah he was like whoa like
that these ideas could get implanted
that deep into my mind and so
when I think like telling your kid that
the world doesn't want someone who looks
like you to succeed you you walk out
just well why even try and now your
behaviors are I'm not going to try and
so if you don't take the time to your
point about college write this [ __ ] down
that even if the world wants me to fail
I will never stop trying I will always
pursue that which I love whatever that's
going to manifest as a value you've got
to have it because if you don't in times
of stress you will slide back to oh well
the world doesn't want me to succeed
anyway therefore I shouldn't even try
yeah oh my goodness so I don't even
there's so many things to unpack there
the first is I would say that one of the
most disempowering ways that we can be
in the world
probably the most disempowering way is
to feel that we are completely victims
to the system and the circumstance
okay
because then there's no point in trying
then the the bias holds me the story
holds me
another of the most disempowering ways
we can be in the world
is to think that
everything
rests on my thoughts and my emotions
because what that denies is the reality
of context this pathology on both sides
you know it's it's the bothness and and
I you know sometimes I talk out against
this false positivity not sometimes I
always talk out against false positivity
because it's cruel and it's unkind and
it's ineffective and it we do it
ourselves and we do it to others and
there is no research that supports the
idea that forced positivity is
associated with when false positivity is
denial is associated with greater
outcomes but so often people say things
to me like so are you anti-happiness you
know are you are you anti-happiness and
I'm like no I'm not anti-evenness in
fact I I wrote a 90 chapter I edited a
90 chapter handbook called the Oxford
Handbook of happiness I am genuinely and
curiously and and
um purposefully interested in true human
happiness and one of the most
fascinating chapters of this book
was a chapter about how where you live
and your access to public transport how
it impacts on your well-being
and of course it does because if you are
needing to commute two hours to work and
two hours from work every single day it
is impacting on your relationships and
your capacity to be there for your
family and your children and so on and
so there is again this bothness it is
not about
I am a victim of the system
because that traps me
it is also not about
I am a complete victim of my own mental
state and mindset because that denies
the truth that some [ __ ] is hard that
some [ __ ] is hot that some [ __ ] is hard
and I wanted to come back Tom because
you spoke about Nelson Mandela
Nelson Mandela described how
in order to live through his purpose
he needed
to
be able to sit down with his oppressors
is what he described and he's learning
actually about
his anger you know not running away from
anger
but actually
going towards your anger
knowing that your anger is signposting
that you care about equity and fairness
and then what demands that you sit down
with your oppressor is because you care
about equity and fairness and therefore
you are
being values guided towards having that
conversation and so the point that I
make here when I'm talking about
emotions or data not directives
is that when you think about emotions as
data and you say like
oh well I'm sad or oh well I'm grieving
oh well I'm angry
those emotions are signposting things
that you care about
the not directives part is just as
important just because I feel sad
doesn't mean that I get to stay in bed
all day
because actually what is the sadness
signposting the sadness is maybe
signposting that I
care about outcomes that I care about
life that I care about people and so the
sadness is is signposting
that this thing that is outside of me
right now matters
and so this part of emotions are data
not directives
we are
we are learning from our emotions
so that we can step into the wisdom of
our values
and that's why emotions are data not
directives
I'm learning from my emotions but we own
our emotions they don't own us
everything you can own our emotions I
think most people are owned by this
emotions going back to Nelson Mandela I
would be owned by my anger if I were
locked up for 27 years yeah I can't
fathom he is a human of a higher class
than I it's unbelievable I really want
to pretend that I would be that amazing
I would not and the fact that he was and
here's what I love from Long Walk to
Freedom is he said that the oppressor
gives up their Humanity to oppress
somebody else and so it doesn't make
sense for me to come out and just turn
the tables of Oppression you have to
find and I can never remember if he said
this or if I just implied it but you
have to come up with a third way because
you can either remain oppressed become
the oppressor or find this third way of
unity
and the fact that he was able to do that
is really really incredible and it
brings me back to Victor Frankel and
this idea of so Victor Frankel for those
who don't know and I can't imagine
you've watched my content you don't know
who Victor Frankel is but uh Victor
Frankel was in the um in Auschwitz he
was actually in multiple death camps
Nazi death camps and he said that if you
could establish meaning and purpose that
you could navigate the I mean the most
gruesome situation I can possibly
imagine and he said if you didn't have
that then you died and he said you could
predict within 72 hours who was gonna
die when
because you would see them give up on
their purpose and then it was like why
am I doing this and then they would just
die
that's crazy to me yeah and goes to show
that there is a relationship you have to
have with your emotions because if
Nelson Mandela had been consumed by his
anger as I would have been then you have
no Nelson Mandela nobody knows him he's
just somebody that burns out very
quickly
and if you
are just overwhelmed by your suffering
and don't assign it because it's not
really there but you don't assign it
meaning and purpose then again you will
burn out and that's that
yeah so can I can I play out Nelson
Mandela and Victor Frankel via emotional
agility yes please
yeah it's it's very much about the
tapping into the wisdom of our emotions
so we can move towards our values so
Victor Frankl
actually I want to start before Victor
Frankel can I talk about Primo Levi if
we're talking about whatever that is so
I can't wait so Primo Prima Levi uh also
survived the Nazi death camps
and he described how
when he was on the when the the death
camps were liberated
and he boarded a train back to his
hometown in Italy
and he had just been through this
Indescribable experience in the death
camps
and he described how he was on the train
and it came into the station where his
hometown
and there were people waiting at the
station because now everyone had been
released from the death camps and and so
that the townspeople had come to meet
everyone who were on the train
and
Levi described how
he and his fellow prisoners were
absolutely emaciated
and how the town's people stood at the
station and then
as everyone started to get off the train
the townspeople turned away
and they were so horrified they were so
horrified
they turned away because they were
unable to see
they were unable to metabolize what it
was that they were seeing in front of
them and they turned away
and Levi described how in many ways that
experience of being unseen
was even more traumatic than his
experience in the death camps
are you shocked by that I'm shocked by
that because did he write a book I'm
gonna need to read because he was
describing how
how
and I think this is the thread of my
work
the threat of my work is the seeing
versus the unseeing of the self
the seeing versus the unseeing of others
but but like let's really put this in
context this man was in a prison camp
where he's watching he described
came back to his home he came back to
his home with this expectation that he
was now going to be amongst his people
yeah
and they turned their back on him
did they or were they just weak
what whatever it was he described that
this experience was so profoundly
painful to him wow because it was it was
a turning the back it was the Turning of
the back and I think so much of my work
on emotional agility you know people
often say to me like what is emotional
agility like give us the psychological
definition and I'm like well you know
the psychological definition is
emotional agility is the ability to be
with all of our difficult emotions
thoughts and stories in ways that are
curious you know what is it telling me
in ways that are compassionate and in
ways that are courageous so we can keep
taking values connected steps in our
lives that's the nerd definition that's
the academic definition but what is the
truth of my work the truth of my work is
that emotional agility is about the
seeing versus the unseeing of the self
when we turn our back on our difficult
emotions on our difficult stories on our
difficult values
we are unseeing ourselves
and there is a cost to unseeing
and at the same time
just because I feel sad today
doesn't mean that my sadness is
all-encompassing because if I'm I'm more
than my sadness I am also my values my
intentions my relationships my wisdom I
believe that every single one of us
inside of us has profound centeredness
and breathing and wisdom and Clarity and
when we get defined by our difficulty
Emotion by the sadness or by the anger
we are unseeing the other parts of
ourselves we are unseeing our capacity
and our
humanity and our potential and so there
is another unseeing that is happening
there and so now if we if we can go back
to Victor Frankl Victor Frankel
describes this I think it is one of the
most profoundly powerful ideas in human
history between stimulus and response
there is a space and in that space is
our power to choose and it's in that
choice that lies our growth and our
freedom so
let me try to tie together what we have
been talking about which is
when we are hooked when we are fused
when we are stuck in a difficult thought
the thought might be I'm not good enough
stuck in a difficulty Motion in Emotion
of stress or disappointment or anger or
stuck in a story
the story might have been written on our
mental chalkboards when we were five
years old stories about who we are what
kind of love and life we deserve
when we are stuck in those stories
they literally have become a prison so
we've taken actually at the beginning I
said oh these thoughts these emotions
these stories are normal Charles Darwin
described how they've evolved to help us
to communicate with ourselves and others
so there is nothing there is nothing
good or bad in having
a feeling of being sad or angry or
stressed there is there's nothing
inherently good or bad about it
but what happens is when we start
treating that thought emotional story as
fact
when it literally creates a prison
I feel unhappy now I'm going to leave
the room when my spouse is starting in
on the finances
I have the story that I'm not good
enough so I'm not putting my hand up for
that job
what you've now done is you've now taken
a normal thought emotion story that is
there to help you to make sense of the
world and you're starting to treat it as
fact and it's starting to become data
and directives as opposed to data not
directives okay so in psychological
terms we call this fusion fusion is
where we have a normal thought emotional
story and we start over identifying with
it
there's no space for breathing for Love
For Humanity for connection it starts to
own us
so what is emotional agility
emotional agility and we can talk about
some very practical strategies but
emotional agility is
the ability first to say
it is hard to Human
and these thoughts emotions and stories
have evolved
to help me to make sense of the world
in all of us
we we constantly are assessing and
adjudicating and trying to make sense of
the world and ourselves in it and so
what we are doing is we are firstly
saying
these experiences that I'm having on
normal
okay so we're showing up to our
difficult emotions
and we are
generating a level of acceptance towards
them
and here's the Paradox is acceptance is
the prerequisite to change
I'll say that again acceptance is a
prerequisite to change it sounds weird
by acceptance I don't mean passive
resignation I don't mean oh well you
know I'm accepting that I have no money
and it just is what it is and there's
nothing I can do about it
acceptance is about facing into the
truth of your experience and the truth
of your difficult situation
doesn't mean you passively resign to it
it just means you seeing it
okay so that's the first thing we want
to be able to do this is in emotional
agility I call this showing up showing
up to
our difficulty motions with a level of
um
realness and gentleness
and
and softness
but you're still showing up
then how do we start creating the space
once you've shown up we want to
start using our emotions in the ways
that they were intended which is as data
so can I give some practical strategies
as to yeah as to how that how that so
here's some examples
firstly
practical strategy number one is is
words matter
so very often when we
try to think about our emotions we use
very big
umbrella terms to describe what we're
feeling okay I'm stressed
I'm stressed as the most common one I
hear
but Tom there's a world of difference
between stress and disappointment
or why would people lump is it to me
this just all goes back to people do not
know how to interpret their own feelings
well why do people lump it because
people have grown up in households in
which uh emotions are maybe seen as bad
when you angry go to your room
and so people haven't learned the skills
I mean I think it's one of the greatest
tragedies that when you are struggling
with mathematics and you're a child you
can go on to Can Academy and as
wonderful as Can Academy is and find any
lesson you want about algebra or
pre-calculus or whatever it is but if
you are a child who's feeling unseen by
their parents or who's being bullied at
school the capacity to use
the knowledge that we have in the
technology that we have to bring you the
ability to develop those social and
emotional skills does not exist and I
think is one of the greatest
um opportunities in scaled technology
for good that exists in the world right
now
one of the opportunities was the
opportunity well I think the opportunity
is that there is a an absolute world
that exists of
um
scaled education when it comes to
mathematics and English and algebra and
learning and
you know Master Class chef and all of
these things
and yet these skills that children need
and these skills that we need more
agility emotional skills about that they
can't use the knowledge
yeah I mean if we look if we look at
children dropping out of school if we
look at Children's lifelong well-being
if we look at their relationships that
they're going to be able to create and
sustain
through their world if we look at the
fact that they're not going to just have
one pandemic in their life but likely
more you bite your tongue
don't even say it we are growing up in a
world of increased uncertainty
the world economic Forum describes
emotional agility as the skills of the
future
because
we need
the ability to deal with
the world that is presented to us the
world as it is and so I think yes I
think one of the most remarkable
opportunities is
the scaled development of social
emotional learning
in in children
in education and Beyond yeah that
doesn't sound easy
well it doesn't sound easy but if we're
talking practical strategies
you know why you you said to me like why
is it that people struggle with these
skills
why is it is because these skills have
become feminized these skills have
become associated with being soft and
fluffy and irrational and
um
as as being like intangible
and yet
they are not we have we have
bodies of knowledge about these skills
being practical and let me give you some
examples of you know what I mean here so
I was saying often we use these very big
labels to describe what we're feeling
I'm stressed is the most common one
but there is a world of difference
between stress and disappointment or
stress and feeling unsupported or stress
and knowing you're in the wrong job or
the wrong career have you seen the color
tests where they show you it kind of
looks like a colorblind test it's like a
bunch of slight variations of color and
when there's I forget it's like a an
Amazonian
tribe or something where they are so
used to all the different colors of
green that they actually have different
names for them yes and if you they like
can find the dot of a certain name like
with 98 you know accuracy or whatever if
you're not from there then you find it
with like 15 Acres it was crazy love
that I went through it myself I was like
what there's a difference in those two
colors take this with emotions take this
with emotions stress is not the same as
one of these other things for it so
we've got to develop language for it
we've got to develop language for it if
you think that you are stressed your
body and your psychology doesn't know
what to do with that stress but as soon
as you start saying oh master address is
unsupported there's literally this
Readiness potential in our brains that
start saying ah I'm feeling stressed
because I'm unsupported how do I get
support
so
this is called emotion granularity it's
exactly what you're describing it's
these different colors this is called
emotion granularity emotion granularity
is and I don't want to overuse this word
it gets over use but emotion granularity
is a superpower
children as young as two and three years
old who are more able to accurately
label their emotions
have higher levels of well-being high
levels of delayed gratification
literally in longitudinal studies if if
you are a 16 year old and the principal
and and someone says like I've got this
great idea let's let the air out of the
principal's car tires okay the child
who's able to say oh I want pure
acceptance and I'm excited on the one
hand but actually what's going on for me
is I've got a sense of disquiet this
feels wrong that child is going to be
equipped yeah in so many ways so let me
come back come back to this practical
strategy which is when you find yourself
using a broad brushstroke label
ask yourself what are two other options
I know that sounds very basic but I
thought this was really brilliant it's
really important I was working with
an executive who described everything as
angry you know he would say I'm angry
I'm angry my team's angry you know
everyone's that this was his language
and I started saying to him
what else could you be feeling other
than angry what are two other options
and he started saying well
actually maybe I'm scared
you know maybe what I'm calling angry is
actually scared and maybe my team's not
angry
maybe my team is actually
mistrusting
now you can see if you go into a
conversation with your team where you
angry and they are angry
there's no space
there's no Victor Frankl anything you
know you're angry and they're angry
there's Fusion
but if you go into a conversation where
you are scared because it's your first
role
in this organization
and where your team is looking for
opportunities to build trust
very different conversation how
important is it do you think to find the
root cause of your emotions so not just
have the word to describe your emotion
but to actually understand ooh this is
you know me being afraid because XYZ
reason
I think that root cause is really
helpful
so long as getting stuck in what is the
root cause doesn't get us stuck
you know this is this is uh
sometimes
sometimes we can get
too stuck
in our heads
and not enough
living Our Lives you know emotional
comes from root cause analysis though I
think sometimes I think sometimes so I
think sometimes
the labeling of this difficulty motion
so it might be you know so say the root
cause might be the person saying well
I'm scared and whether it's like I'm
scared that I'm gonna fail or I'm scared
that I'm gonna lose my job or I'm scared
about something else like
it's not as I mean it can be helpful but
I don't think it needs to derail us
from the recognition that
I'm scared and what is the scaredness
pointing to
what is the data
the fear is pointing me to the fact that
I actually kind of care about this role
and so you can start seeing the beauty
here because if I care about this role
then how do I have a real conversation
with my team
and so you move on the one hand from I'm
angry my team's angry
into
I'm actually fearful because I care
about the role
so how do I have a real conversation
that builds Trust
and there's such it's extraordinary it's
beautiful and a couple of a couple of
um months I was working with this
executive it was in a kind of
Consulting type context and a couple of
months later I went out with this guy
and some of his colleagues and his wife
was there and they were talking
about this particular strategy about
this tool
and his wife said
this
completely changed the relationship
because he would come home from work and
he would say
you seem angry
and she would be like no I'm not angry
I feel unsupported or I'm not angry I'm
just tired
so emotion granularity is really
important and so a very very important
strategy is recognizing that words
matter and to put a button on the eye
that ended up changing her life why was
emotional granularity because the
usability of this I think is something
people really need to get yeah well if
you are completely going to assumptions
based on your lack of
emotional sophistication okay so you are
going to the assumption that you are
angry your team's angry and your wife is
angry
then automatically you're aware that you
are moving through the world
is
a way that is
aggressive
and a way that is likely
disconnected from being able to build
capacity you also to your point about
unseeing you're not actually seeing
you're not really going on you're not
seeing which that makes that person feel
unseen into your earlier point which I'm
still flabbergasted by but that our
concentration camp survivors name I
forget
Levi Prima Levi
he was more traumatized by having his
hometown turn his back on him and not
see him in what he'd been through and
where he was at
so yeah I can see how getting back to
the emotional granularity being able to
actually understand the nuance and quite
frankly just communicating because if
she wasn't saying no I'm not angry I'm
actually feeling unsupported like yeah
they just need to communicate but they
have to have a share so what else is
underneath it yeah and I suppose
actually getting back to Levi it's it's
really about
when I say that my work is about seeing
it's about seeing others and it's also
about seeing the self and so emotional
granularity allows you to see the self
better
um I've got some other practical
strategies that can help to create space
I don't know how are we doing for time
the the another so the first thing we're
doing is we're showing up to our
difficulty emotions
so we no longer fused about them there's
a bit of breathing there's a bit of
space
the next thing that we're doing is we're
recognizing that it's really difficult
to read the instructions when you stuck
inside the bottle
okay you know to the point that you were
making earlier with Nelson Mandela it's
like when you immersed in your emotion
you are unable to get perspective
so you can't read the instructions when
you're stuck inside the bottle so how do
we start getting out of the bottle in
other words moving out of the Trap of
the thought the emotion the story and
rather being able to
notice it rather than be it and that's
the distinction here can we play with
that idea for a second because I think a
lot of people get really lost there
okay so you're having an emotion it's
based on something happening in the real
world and this is the thing about being
a human that I think is very difficult
when people speak in bumper stickers
immediately distrust them because life
is so much more complicated than that so
you're having this emotion you fused
with the emotion because even though you
know the tactics and you've listened to
this interview and you know how it's
supposed to feel but you're like I'm for
real in the middle of some [ __ ] here
like this is real there's really a
problem this is really bad I'm going
through something very difficult I mean
to your your own history my dad is
actually dying this isn't make believe
this is not me like yes
um you know building this up bigger than
it really is my dad is actually dying I
am going to lose the person who most saw
me in this world and this is [ __ ]
brutal yeah and
how do people create space in that
moment like because I know you really
see what they're going through but like
see them right now how yeah they're
they're in the thick of something that's
for real they're not making it up
but getting fused is still a bad idea so
how do they create space when they have
every reason in the world to be fused
with that emotion yeah you know when I
came in you well
well we can have every reason in the
world to be fused with an emotion like
someone
dying
um my father can be dying of cancer I
can be a 15 year old
he can be 42 and I can know that he is
dying and I have a reason to be fused
with that emotion
and still
being fused with thee this is just
unfair
can actually take me out of
being able to see and be with him
so we can have every reason in the world
it still doesn't mean that that's
helpful to us
and
the way
this is the Nuance that becomes really
important sometimes on social media you
know I will
try to make this distinction because
it's like
we have our emotions we can honor those
emotions we can see those emotions we
can be compassionate with those emotions
we can do all of those things
and it doesn't mean that we need to be
owned by them and it doesn't mean that
they need to direct us so how do we how
do we be with that do you ever feel like
you're lying to yourself when you're in
the grips of a really negative emotion
and you're like but there's still Beauty
to be found there's still joy to be had
laughter should still be a thing do you
ever have a voice in your head that's
like no no if you're focusing on
anything other than the tragedy of this
moment you're lying to yourself
I are you asking that of me specifically
I do get that I know better than to
believe it I I
am
we should come back to the journaling
because I have long
it's it's been decades
since I try to hustle with whether I
could or couldn't feel a particular
thing if I'm feeling sad I'm feeling sad
I'll try label it I'll try to understand
it I'll try to do all those things I'll
try and understand the values but I'm
not going to try
force my way into a different way of
seeing
and how do you avoid getting fused
I could really I think a really
important part of it is firstly
interestingly when you try to hustle
with your emotion you're more likely to
be confused because when you're feeling
if you're feeling sad and you're saying
to yourself like
I shouldn't be oh I shouldn't feel this
and like this feels wrong you you are
actually
starting to do in Psychology like we
have these we describe these
um type A emotions and type B emotions
type A emotions I'm getting I'm getting
kind of clinical yeah but top a emotions
are the emotion you're experiencing
you're feeling sad you feeling angry you
feeling upset
that's your
genuine experience of the emotion
top emotions are when you start having
emotions about your emotions
oh I'm unhappy that I'm unhappy I
shouldn't be so unhappy I'm not allowed
to be unhappy I'm anxious that I'm
feeling anxious you know stress is meant
to kill you now I'm stressed that I'm
stressed and so what you start doing is
you start actually but as soon as you
start hustling with whether you should
or shouldn't feel an emotion you
actually create more fusions stick with
type A though so I'm not feeling this
difficulty motion yeah don't feel bad
about it so I am I am lost in it I don't
even realize anymore that there's an
option to feel any other way that even
if I make a joke I feel so inauthentic
because I feel like I should just be
wallowing not even that I feel like I
should be wallowing that the only I just
am the truth for me is that I'm doing
this and so laughing feels like a lie
yeah I think this is where uh
this is also where self-compassion
becomes really important
this is you know self-compassion it like
it sounds like so kind of oh you know
self-compassion we all talk about you
know it's like roll the eyes but but
it's but
it's in in a
a culture again that promotes the idea
that we should always know the answer
even though when we are lying at night
just us
in the Stillness of our relationship
with silence
we know we don't have the answer
and there is a
compassion
that is that is invited at that moment
because
compassion speaks to the truth that it
is hard to Human
that we don't know all the answers that
all human beings suffer
that
there is fragility and Beauty in life
and so when I'm in those moments
of
feeling stuck sometimes in grief
there is something really profound in
being compassionate with that
and what do I really mean here what I
mean is firstly acknowledging you know
for everyone who's listening right now
acknowledging that you are doing just
the acknowledgment just just the simple
acknowledgment that you are doing the
best you can with who you are with the
resources that you have been given in
life
just that acknowledgment
starts to create a level of
gentleness and a level of breathing and
a level of space
um
when doctors are going to give bad news
to patients
we ask them to
and I'll do this for for people who can
see me on on YouTube but if you can't
see me I'm putting my hands across my
chest
um almost as if I'm hugging myself we
ask doctors to do this when they're
going to give bad news to a patient's
family why
because we are tactile human beings
and so often we live the world in a way
that feels like it's just between our
heads but when we hug ourselves when we
hold ourselves we are actually grounding
ourselves we are reminding ourselves of
of our
human like this there's something about
it shifts their
it it shifts something so
um so visceral if you're doing a
gazillion Zoom calls every day and you
know people will often say to me how do
we prepare leaders for connecting with
their teams when they're doing a million
Zoom calls and I'm like preparing for
connection happens when you connect with
yourself
and we connect with ourselves when we
actually you know remind ourselves that
we are human and for everyone that's
listening
I
if you're going through it through a
difficult period now or when you will in
the future
or even if you you have
There's Something Beautiful in
recognizing that you know inside
the 50 year old you
or the 40 year old or the 30 year old
there is actually a five-year-old child
like there is a five-year-old
inside
every single one of us
five-year-old
and that five-year-old is like gently
tugging on your sleeve
trying to get your attention
and that five-year-old
is saying see me
love me
connect with me
and often even when we immersed in our
difficult experience
that five-year-old is telling us what it
needs
the five-year-old is saying you know
what is your five-year-old saying it
needs of you is it saying it needs
more creativity more spontaneity more
connection more love does it need to be
seen
does it need more growth does it need
more learning
there is a five-year-old inside of every
single one of us
and
when we stuck in something difficult
reminding ourselves that there is a
five-year-old
immediately starts to connect us with
this it's psychologically I'm trying to
kind of bring in these psychological
terms psychologically it's called
continuity of the self
because when we're stuck
when we hooked when we most when refused
these are all synonyms for the same
thing when there is no space
all we're doing is we are seeing a
singular version of Our Truth which is
our truth right now
when we connect with a five-year-old
inside of us we are starting to connect
with uh a different part of ourselves
an earlier version of ourselves and so
we're starting to widen our perspective
naturally
you know we're moving beyond the this is
me this is the 50 old me this is the
angry me into the
this is the five-year-old hurt me
who's needing to be seen
and then there is also a
plus 20 plus 20 year version of the self
you know the 70 year old
or if you're 30 the 50 year old
and that version of you is also saying
see me and love me and do things that
are connected with me now why am I
saying this like why am I saying this as
a strategy
I'm saying it as a strategy because what
happens when we are hooked is we start
to become very
um focused in a very rigid way on one
version
of our current truth
and astronauts describe this I recently
had the joy of presenting to to NASA and
it was the it was the one opportunity
where I was like you know the overview
effect but but we have all heard of the
overview effect the overview effect is
this effect where
astronauts describe when they go into
space how they look back and they see
the Earth
that is now just a pinprick
it's like this tiny pin prick and
astronauts describe how seeing the Earth
as a pinprick reminds them both of
um their significance and their
insignificance all at once and it
broadens their perspective and so the
reason I give this as a way of starting
to move
out of difficult emotions through a
compassionate Channel which is your
younger self and your older self is
because it starts to broaden your
perspective I'm not just me now the 50
year old angry me I'm also the Unseen me
who's five and who needs love and I'm
also the 70 year old me who cares about
how this relationship worked out
and that is one of the ways that we
start creating space between stimulus
and response but but we can't end this
conversation without one more thing
let's hear it
okay so I am I am sad I am angry I am
frustrated when we say I am you can hear
that it again is Fusion because it
sounds as if you all of you
is angry there's no space for anything
else there's no space For Love or or
or seeing or connection
so a really powerful when we come full
circle to those difficult thoughts
emotions and stories that we started off
with
is
um
noticing your thoughts your emotions and
your stories for what they are their
thoughts their emotions their stories
they are
not fact they're not directives so let
me play out what this looks like when
you say I am sad and we all do this
every day we say I'm sad
I'm angry like what else would you say
but it's almost as if the sad is a cloud
in the sky
okay I am sad
I am the cloud I'm defined by the cloud
the cloud is All of Me
and there's no space for anything else
then
there's no space for your child
or your colleague
or your dreams
instead what we can do is we can notice
our thoughts our emotions and our
stories for what they are their thoughts
emotion stories
I'm noticing
that I'm feeling sad not I am sad I'm
noticing that I'm feeling sad
I am not good enough
I'm noticing that this is my I'm not
good enough story
I have the urge to leave the room
I'm noticing that this is my urge to
turn my back on this difficult
conversation with my spouse I'm noticing
the urge what are you starting to do
here is you're starting to notice these
things not as
um
Who We Are
but as parts of Who We Are
which everyone will identify with
everyone knows that you can
simultaneously be a loved one and a
parent and a child and a CEO all at the
time we can all have multiple identities
we can also experience multiple emotions
and multiple experiences it's a big part
of mindfulness meditation it's very
recognize note the thoughts the emotion
and you're starting to observe it and
what you're starting to do here
it's starting to get you out of the
bottle so you can start reading the
instructions of your values
what you're starting to do here is
you're starting to move from I am the
cloud
I am sad
into I'm noticing that I'm feeling sad
because here's the truth
the truth is we are not the cloud
the truth is that we are the sky
we are the sky
we are beautiful and messy
and capacious and able and
beautiful and human enough to experience
all of
our difficult thoughts emotions and
stories
and still choose
how we want to move forward in our lives
we are not the cloud we are the sky
I love it where can people follow you
mate talk
is the gift and power of emotional
courage
um my book is emotional agility
and I've also got a quiz on my website
which a couple of hundred thousand
people have taken now and it gives you a
free 10-page report that connects with
these different aspects of emotional
agility Susan david.com forward slash
learn and then of course on social I try
to post
um thoughtfully and intentionally and
I'd love to hear anyone's comments about
this episode I love it all right
everybody if you haven't already be sure
to subscribe and until next time my
friends be legendary take care peace we
all bought into this lie that you've got
to feel ready in order to change yeah we
bought into this this complete falsehood
that at some point you're going to have
the courage at some point you're going
to have the confidence