Kind: captions
Language: en
the more we learn about addiction the
more we realize that it isn't just about
the drunk and the gutter or the guy who
can't pull the needle out of his arm
that on some level we're all prey to
some form of addictive compulsive
behavior patterns that are interfering
with us aligning our values with our
actions
rich roll welcome back to the show so
happy to be here man thanks for having
me today dude for sure so
it's always tough to interview somebody
like you where i i literally just made a
list of all the things we could cover
and it is a very broad swath so for the
thumbnail it's tough i don't know where
this will end up going but i want to
start with spirituality i heard you make
a statement sort of as an offhanded
comment to answer somebody else's thing
and i was like whoa i really want to
know more about that you said that your
spiritual life is the most important
thing
and one i would love if you could just
define what do you mean by spirituality
and why is it so important
wow coming out of the gate hot with a
rough one yeah
how to
articulate that i mean the first thing i
would say is
that
for me there's nothing that isn't
spiritual like i don't look at
life in a binary dualistic way in the
sense that there is the
the non-spiritual life and then my
spiritual life now when you say
non-dualistic though are you taking a
very
like there is the mind so traditional
dualism for those that haven't heard
that phrase you've got the brain and
then you've got the sort of spiritual
being and the two are not the same that
would be sort of classical dualism
correct what do you mean correct so for
me it is non-dualistic
it's all one thing
that's how i think about it and i don't
think about spirituality in any kind of
specific dogmatic sense
um
i suppose i would define it as
uh in an awe and wonder
that anything is possible and that there
is much that we don't understand i think
we're hubristic as human animals to
believe that
we are capable of understanding
everything
and we've
come quite far in terms of trying to
understand
space and the brain and what's at the
bottom of the ocean and how our bodies
work but i think we've really only
tapped the surface of that and i like to
live in that space of awe and wonder and
my life
and many of the big decisions that i've
made
i think were predicated on a certain
kind of non-definable faith in
possibility
and the biggest leaps that i've made in
terms of personal growth and in terms of
my career
[Music]
the beautiful things that i've been able
to accomplish i think are
part and parcel
attributable to
having a
interior spiritual life
okay so there's a lot there so
i'm really intrigued about the hubris
but i want to come back to that for a
second because i'm not sure hubris
hubris can manifest negatively
but also it's the thing that makes us
explore space and the ocean and all of
that but before we go down that path so
i um give me more about as you explore
spirituality is it
sitting in the
the wonder is it
um
is it communing
and
commuting might be the wrong word is it
communicating and connecting with a a
higher power that you personify like
what does that mean exactly it's
definitely
connecting with a higher power but not
in any kind of personified way
it doesn't hold any kind of specific
characteristic other than that there are
forces that exist beyond our limited
senses
and i dig it yeah i dig it
is it completely true can i prove that
no i can't you know
but i know that in times of pain and
struggle and confusion in my life when i
have
arrived at a place having done a lot of
interior work
and am in a position where i feel like i
can trust my instincts
taking leaps of faith and trusting
in some kind of belief outside of myself
that i will be guided has
served me well
that's interesting okay so do you
believe that to be literally true in
that something is actually guiding all
of us or at least you
i think that there is a there is
uh
a guiding force that is available to all
of us when we are
committed to
the path of self-actualization and
self-understanding
that we can then intuit and tap into
perceptive abilities that
can serve as a reliable compass for our
decision making all right this is some
heavy [ __ ] here ritual
but it's all very ephemeral it's not
something i can say this is how it works
it's just something that has shown up in
my life time and time again and i've
seen it as intuition as intuition you
know i would say
you know when we spoke last time we
talked about my story and i've had highs
and lows just like everybody has
and have been in positions where i felt
hopeless
or financially destitute
and those were moments that really
tested
not just my own
capabilities and capacity but tested
that faith and trusting in that and
believing in myself and this
kind of purpose-driven instinct that i
had
led me to make decisions that
didn't make any sense logically or
rationally and yet over time have proven
to be correct
okay so quickly to find correct
um i mean right now i live a life beyond
my wildest imagination i feel very
privileged to be able to do this thing
that i do that's similar to what you do
uh provide for my family doing it be be
remunerated uh handsomely for doing it
and it's enriched my life in in so many
ways and given me purpose and
fulfillment and a sense of direction
that feels very meaningful not just to
me personally but to a lot of other
people i'm sure you get messages every
single day from the people that enjoy
your show and
have found meaning in it and and
direction
and that's a really great feeling and
that's something i never thought that i
would have and when i set out on this
sort of quest
um
there was no logical indication that i
would ever get there it didn't make any
sense this couldn't be a vocation
everybody who was in my circle who kind
of operates more rationally
was saying to me you need to go back to
the law firm or you need to you know
make these more prudent
choices
because you're being irresponsible but i
felt
guided in a in an
intangible way
and convicted that i was doing the right
thing even though it was confusing and
there were plenty of times when i wanted
to jump ship and do the prudent rational
thing because that's how i was raised
and that's what my education was all
about
um
[Music]
but
uh having kind of come out the other
side of it i have a deeper appreciation
for
how do i say this
the beauty in
not always knowing and then back to
again this sense of awe and wonder in
what we don't truly understand
okay so now i want to tease those out so
i often in my life feel like i'm
stepping into the void and that
because i'm in the void i can't tell if
i'm falling if i'm flying if i'm
floating i actually don't know
and it's um
part of the reason that hubris to me is
not always negative is the thing that
keeps me from panicking
because i don't know if i'm following
floating or flying
uh is that i can figure it out
and i don't feel that i'm being guided
in any way shape or form i don't feel
that there's anything that has my back
there's clearly something i don't
understand you need only ask yourself
i don't believe in god but let's say
that god existed what existed before god
right and so you end up my brain at
least breaks at a moment where i cannot
conceive of something from nothing and i
also can't conceive of
perpetual something so i
i can't right wrap my head around so
what i would say to that is
what i hear and what you just said is
a desire or a need a deep-seated need to
believe that you can control outcomes in
your life
and what would it feel like for you to
let go and just surrender
and have you had have you had the
experience in your life where
you have been up against the wall and
you threw up your hands and said i don't
know i'm letting go of this i'm just
going to be in
a state of presence and allowing and
then had that situation
work out optimally
without you having to force it or compel
it with yourself well um
be thoughtful in how i answer that so
i think that
being open to
whatever is going to transpire
opportunity um connection all of that
stuff is a very
wise thing to do
it
so from that standpoint that is a tool
in my tool belt
but when i think about it don't think
about it as surrendering to something
else that will then present something to
me and to because that to me but to
surrender without expectation or
attachment
not conditionally saying i'm
surrendering because i trust this other
thing is going to take care of this but
what does it feel like
or what would it feel like for you to
completely
release the the the chains
to what outcome
to any outcome
no that doesn't mean possibly even a a
bigger more beautiful outcome let me
just i'm always open to let me explain
so i came into this understanding
through
um through recovery from alcoholism and
i'm somebody who grew up
uh
in a very rationalist household with you
know academically minded parents and i
was blessed with the best education that
anybody could could buy and study
science and the humanities and all of
that and
and my mind operated in a very pragmatic
way and then alcoholism really took me
down some very dark paths as we talked
about last time and when i finally
reached my nadir with all of that and
realized that i couldn't continue to
live that way
i had to
let go of all of the ideas i had about
how to solve this problem because that
wasn't working allow other people to
help me and when i entered this 12-step
community it was impressed upon me that
i needed to surrender and let go which
to me felt like giving up that's not in
my dna i don't give up i can use my
brain to solve this problem but all
indications were that my brain was
actually making it worse
and the real solution
required me to let go of those ideas and
allow other people to help me and to
surrender to the possibility that
my be you know this idea that my best
thinking had landed me in this desperate
place
and that
the solution lie in
in
in surrendering to a sense of
powerlessness
which again was very difficult for me to
croc and took me a long time to
understand
but ultimately what it means is that
um or or what it led me to
more fully appreciate
is that there really are so few things
that we can control in our lives and i
think as human beings we want to control
our environments
out of fear of death or whatever it is
but when you really think about it
all you can control is the thoughts that
you entertain and how you respond to the
world around you it's very what you put
in your mouth for example but beyond
that you can't control other human
beings how they react to you what's
happening in the world around you
and i think that causes a lot of pain
and suffering and consternation for
people and letting go of all of that and
really focusing on the very few things
that you can control you can find a
certain level of peace and i think with
that
you you create fertile ground to grow a
healthy dose of humility
and
um you know you being a guy who's sort
of a master of the universe and is
trying to solve problems with his mind
and has created this incredibly
beautiful life of largesse doing that
it's probably a harder pill to swallow
so i'm interested in like how that lands
for you
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i think we feel very similarly because i
do not consider myself a master of the
universe all i do is fail rich literally
it is almost ridiculous how
you know there's that michael jordan
commercial i've missed this many shots
lost this many games and that's why i'm
successful
so i mean
i am not if people look at me and see
somebody who's like gripping on tightly
to something that would be a mistake so
my the mantra that i repeat in my head
is that life is full of beauty life is
full of suffering you cannot control
what happens to you you can only control
how you react
but then there's the next part of it to
me which is the image of grabbing a
sword
and so that's my reaction is to fight
and the
fight is so clearly that i don't know
the answers and so what i try to do is
surround myself with people that won't
yes man me
that will tell me when they think that
i'm wrong because i'm wrong so often
and
it doesn't feel like surrender but if
surrendering is the sense of i'm not
gonna be able to solve this by myself i
need help and by the way if i don't
solve it what does that really matter
like i'm my north star is exactly joy
and fulfillment that's it it isn't
wealth i i am all too clear on the fact
that wealth has brought me zero percent
joy like there's nothing about being
wealthy that's joyful the things that it
allows me to build are joyful but those
are aimed at meaning and purpose right
so i have a
math equation
and i get like even hearing myself
explain it i understand how it comes
across to be i've got a math equation
i'm grabbing a sword i'm fighting like
but that stuff gives me the chills like
it it feels so awesome
and because i am
well aware the only thing that
ultimately matters is how i feel about
myself when i'm by myself
and
have i been loving have i been kind have
i been open have i been
um
willing to admit that i'm not smart
enough to do this by myself and and
i have come to those conclusions because
those conclusions are so useful to
getting to joy and fulfillment
but it doesn't feel like letting go
i'm sure you've had the experience
however where you're trying to solve a
problem and perhaps your math equation
is failing you
and people are saying do this and other
people are saying do that
and
you've said well i'm gonna not do
anything for a moment i'm gonna take a
beat and i'm just going to sit with this
and a day later a week later or a month
later the proper solution comes to you
or by dint of doing nothing it solves
itself or you end up in a place uh
better off than you could have predicted
had you
sort of forced your self-will upon that
solution in that moment
that is so that's an example of kind of
what i'm talking about yeah so
meditation for me is a daily practice
where i'm trying to get calm and
creative for that reason
and the sense of
intuition that is definitely something
that uh i can identify with for sure and
my goal in meditation so i do two things
i do meditation where i'm just trying to
get calm and creative by breathing from
my diaphragm and returning to the breath
so that my thoughts stop looping in a
death spiral around negative [ __ ] or
problem solving or whatever
and
then when you're there you find that oh
you for me it's like an image will
appear in my head
and once i have
that space where i'm calm and creative i
try to pre-load
the image of what problem i'm trying to
solve so i can feel myself get into that
calm creative space because i've
preloaded this was it mark twain that
said no thomas edison never go to bed
without making an ask of your
subconscious i think is the thing so i
will know ahead of time of like this is
the big problem i'm trying to solve
and
so it's a question of okay well is that
tom
grasping because he pre-plans and he
knows what problem he's trying to solve
and he's you know so into being a master
of the universe that he's making this
ask of his subconscious or is that me
letting go because i understand i can't
force it
and that all i can do is make the ask of
whatever that ephemeral thing is and
then i have to create the space of
silence of equanimity of peace in order
to hear that little whisper
i don't know right but still
that's fundamentally premised on this
idea that at some point
the appropriate response will come to
you through that process
but what about the situations where in
that
in that period of repose and reflection
other people out in the world are like
moving there's moving pieces out there
and those pieces
move in such a way that solve the
problem for you without you having done
anything and suddenly you're like oh wow
now everything is way better and i did
nothing
i i that is for sure a real thing that's
something that my wife and i get in
fights about routinely um because her
perspective is what she will want me to
do something about it like this is a
problem go solve that problem and my
thing is i've just had to tell her when
you have some big thing like that you've
got to give me three weeks because
oftentimes something will present itself
it will solve itself it will
something that i'm trying to like make
happen suddenly like something just
delivers like i'm really hungry and yeah
you know pizza falls off a truck it's a
yeah that's a terrible example but you
get the idea no i understand what you're
saying it's i'm probably more like your
wife like there's a discomfort with that
dissonance like this has to be fixed
because i don't feel
comfortable in my own skin until this
problem is resolved and my wife
in our case of our marriage she'll be
the one to say don't do anything like
you don't need to do anything
and sometimes i don't think of it as
doing something but i mean i'm not
saying in every occasion but in certain
situations it's like
take a moment
be with that discomfort and what is
behind that discomfort why does that
make you so uncomfortable and maybe
that's the more interesting thing to
explore
so i have a slightly different take on
that so i work with artists a lot and
they're
rich they're amazing like working with a
great artist because i respond to art
just
unimaginably strongly
and but i can't create it so it's this
really weird thing of like i can't when
it comes to writing i can write things
that give me the chills that's a cool
thing right to know that i can sit down
and i can imagine a scenario and write
dialogue and create these characters and
it becomes this very i feel like i'm
channeling i'm stealing from stephen
king that's exactly how he describes it
and
it you feel like you're witnessing the
story as much as the reader's gonna feel
like they're witnessing the story it
really feels awesome but visual art
which i actually respond incredibly
strongly to i can't create it
and
working with artists i want to like sit
there until they get it to the point
where i feel that thing that i want to
feel
and i have learned you can't do that
and so i literally on the inside i have
so much discomfort because i'm like
tick-tock man we're not creating this
art for fun like this is a part of
oftentimes like right now we're working
on a
multi-million dollar project
and
they're like we need more time we need
to explore and on the inside i'm like
[ __ ] every day that goes by
this is costing me an obscene amount of
money
and
externally i'm like word
take the time explore do what you need
to do so it comes back for me
not to what i feel or what i wish were
true but what's actually effective
and if giving that space is effective
then you give the space and it almost
doesn't matter to your point i can't
control it so if i try to control them
if i try to force them i won't get what
i want so of course i tried that in the
early days
it did not yield results and so
you find yourself in a position through
trial and error of just being like yep i
have to like and maybe that to you is
letting go but to me it's
being strategically silent yeah those
two things overlap i think i mean you
can't rush the magic you know i know
what you're talking about exactly and
you know artists are channeling
something higher and that cannot be
summoned on a deadline or a time frame
necessarily
and to the extent that you try to force
it you're undermining the quality of
what it is that you're trying to achieve
in the first place it's also breaking
something but with artists you also you
put it you have to put up guardrails you
know kind of yes you do gracefully like
they need the thing is like they need
structure too
but it's that delicate balance of
being a support system so they can do
their best work
while also creating kind of some of the
practical accountability
that
they may not think they need but they
actually do need to do their best work
and that's a dance you know that's like
an art in and of itself i think
yeah that that is for sure in terms of
the times i frustrate the artists the
most is when i don't give them enough
restriction
and that was really eye-opening like
they would say
you're not being clear and i'm like i'm
being incredibly clear like i don't know
what other words you want me to say and
then i realized oh my god like they're
what they need is like the narrow narrow
narrow no no like i feel like i'm
hemming them in too much but and this
was something i learned in film school
but to often forget that the constraints
make the art and when you have like jaws
the famous story the he wanted to show
the mechanical shark like from the word
jump and it kept breaking and so he had
to figure out a way around it between
the
the sound and then just the fin because
he couldn't make it work and then of
course that becomes like your
imagination goes so crazy and you can
imagine something far more terrifying
than what's actually there and so it
ends up becoming this way greater
artistic expression
because he couldn't do the thing that he
wanted to do he had limitations yeah
sure sure sure that reminds me of jj
abrams ted talk about the mystery box
you remember that so
it's
we all crave the reveal you know in that
case what does the shark actually look
like but it's actually the anticipation
of the of the reveal that actually
drives the intrigue and the emotional
connection with the storytelling no
doubt the end of loss still makes me
want to punch somebody though
that show was so good dude oh my god i
want to rewatch everything but the last
season
i can still enjoy it though oh me too in
fairness while i do want to punch
somebody
nonetheless it it makes me want to punch
somebody because i was so into it it's
really incredible i don't even want to
take away from them it was it pisses me
off that damon lindloff gets so much
[ __ ] because i think he's a genius and
everything that he creates is just
magical in my opinion yeah it's i mean
i'm sure you what you saw watchman
i only saw like the first episode and
somehow didn't get the whole series
worth it it's incredible yeah yeah i
love have you read the comic no oh my
god oh they're like obsessed it's so
good it is a work a master work of art
that makes me
want to crawl into the fetal position
because i don't think i'll ever be that
good it it's one of those few pieces of
like art that you encounter that you're
just like
i don't know whether to to be in awe or
to be wounded because it's so good
it's shocking that you haven't watched
the series then well that's part of why
the first episode was so different it's
very different i was like it's it's
basically a watchman story inspired by
the comic or the graphic novel um but it
tackles some pretty
heady
social issues through the lens of those
characters but it's done in such a
masterful way that you can't help but be
awestruck by it so i recommend
my man i want to go back to hubris i
didn't think we were going to talk about
watchmen and all that
neither did i do no conversations with
tom exactly that's the fun of the format
um
do you think hubris is just bad or is it
also something that
lets us dare greatly
it's both um i mean hubris is has a
negative connotation to it uh but i
think
um
pride and confidence in the capabilities
of the human brain has been the engine
of progress and that will continue and
it's accelerating and there's a lot of
wonderful magical things about it that
have created this incredible world that
we all get to live in
but i think
where
we run into trouble
is when
we
don't appreciate that
there are things
that are beyond our capabilities like i
think it's good to think oh we can solve
any problem and yet
i think it's also important to
couch that confidence against
an understanding or an appreciation that
um
as advanced as our brains are they're
only so advanced so for example
you could spend a lifetime trying to
teach your pet snake how to speak
english it doesn't have the brain
capacity it will never understand what
you're talking about and it doesn't have
the ability to form language
verbal language at least because its
brain is not big enough our brains are
larger they're capable of doing much
more
but they're not the ultimate right we
may be just missing a lobe that would
allow us to perceive all kinds of
amazing things that the capacity of our
current brains just are not capable of
seeing or understanding comprehending or
perceiving in any way and when you think
of it like we're just we're you know
evolution has progressed to a certain
point
but there hasn't been you know an
evolution of the human brain to some
kind of organic super brain that could
perhaps explain things to us
that we're completely unaware of that
would be elemental and obvious to that
brain and i think the delta between
those two things is where you can find
awe appreciation wonder and
humility and i think you know kind of
inhabiting a healthy dose of of humility
is
is important
yeah that that is a central theme in my
life i was once asked how i could be
successful and humble at the same time
and i was like
man humility finds me every day and the
[Music]
you know we were talking about this
earlier it's to
really get good at something it's what i
call the physics of progress but an
innate part of the loop of the physics
of progress is failure so you try
something it doesn't quite work why
didn't it work
and what
i think ends up getting people stuck is
they
won normally they don't know what their
goal is but assuming that they actually
have a clear goal
they
attempt something they fail to some
extent it hurts they don't like the way
that hurts they don't want to look at
their role in the failure
to accept that they're you know not
capable enough or whatever yet but that
that really stings and so then they
can't muster the
it's not even courage
one i don't think people take the time
to
if i have an emotion that i can't
explain in a single sentence i know i
need to journal about it because i need
to figure out why i feel the way that i
feel otherwise i can find myself moving
in weird ways where i don't even know
why i'm doing what i'm doing because
there's just some discomfort that i'm
trying to move away from
but if i stop and go oh my god this is
because i think i'm whatever like my big
struggle in life has always been i don't
feel smart enough and so like coming to
grips with that idea and understanding
like how it has propelled me forward to
prove to myself and then i know you can
do this um
but at the same time that it's this
haunting idea that like is really
difficult for me to shake because i have
a value system that really wants me to
be able to you know
be incredibly smart because this is
interesting this is how people i think
about intelligence the way most people
think about money
and
because i am so in awe of people who are
smart and i want to be that in awe of
myself
that i pursue
that death loop of like wanting to be
smarter all the time wanting to be
smarter wishing ever smarter
uh which is
that's sort of the the grand struggle of
my life as it were
but
in terms of humility it's just like if
you can stare nakedly at your
inadequacies
realize that you can get better
actually do the thing to get better
re-run another experiment then you can
get in this the loop of what i call the
physics of progress
but people don't have a clear idea of
why they don't want to do it again
and so they just don't and they just
move it's like um
you know you
[Music]
you take somebody who has a damage to
the their brain that makes it impossible
for them to form new memories
and if the doctor comes in they ran this
test it's so crazy that it's true doctor
put a pin in their hand so they shake
their hand it pokes them the person
jerks back but they won't five minutes
from now they won't remember ever
meeting that doctor doctor leaves they
come back five minutes later they extend
their hand to shake it and the person
won't shake it because there's a
different part of your brain that
remembers the pain so even though when
you ask them why won't you shake my hand
and be like oh i've never shaken the
hand of somebody in the lab code i just
have a personal rule it's like no you
don't
but you're not shaking my hand because
some part of your brain remembers the
pain and so people live in that part
where the some deep
unaccessible region of their brain is
like this sucks this is painful i don't
want to do this
and
that stops them from getting in that
loop
yeah sure we're all we're all compelled
by unconscious drivers to some extent or
another and
what you just described so beautifully
is
a person who has committed themselves to
self-understanding and
self-actualization and i think people
don't appreciate how much work that is
that is a commitment right and you can't
kind of self-actualize
unless on some level
you are
are dedicated to kind of understanding
your past what makes you tick
the way in which your conscious and
unconscious mind interact
that calcify these loops that perpetuate
behavioral patterns that
repeatedly lead you astray right
[Music]
you've done this on your own accord i
was sort of forced into it through
you know addiction and my rubric has
been 12 step which is a version of that
that was like my introductory point to
you know similar
trajectory that you just described
but it's all about
connecting with who you are right i
think most people are walking around
totally unconnected from themselves they
don't understand why they do what they
do they continue to do the same things
over and over and over again they flog
themselves and yet
um decline the opportunity to really
deconstruct that whether it means going
to therapy or whatever your modality
might be
they're living a reactive life and then
they're confounded and confused when
they're not getting the outcomes
that
they aspire to achieve or manifest in
their lives right and for me i can only
speak to my own experience like it's
been you know decades of trying to delve
into
what has compelled me to act in certain
ways what's the trauma beneath that how
can i
um better understand that and then you
know sort of deconstruct it so that it
doesn't hold any more power what is the
evidence to support these narratives
that i loop in my mind about who i am i
mean you mentioned this whole thing
about like feeling like you're not smart
um
and just that awareness alone like oh
that's what's motivating me to make
these decisions i can harness that as a
power but i can also put that to the
test like is that actually true like
what is what are what is the evidentiary
support that leads you to have this
self-belief and then you can look
through the course of your life and
identify all kinds of other examples
that rebut that evidence and help you
create a new narrative for yourself and
it's interesting how humans we peace we
pick out these little incidents that
have happened in our lives
and we decide that they have great
importance and we allow them to form
this lattice work of like who we are
like you know we hang our identity
upon
a few isolated incidents that have
occurred when in truth billions of
things happen to us over the course of
our lifetimes and we actually have the
power to choose
different episodes throughout our life
and inject those with meaning and that's
like a muscle that you have to build
but the deeper that you're willing to go
into that process of self-understanding
i think ultimately the more empowered
you you become when you emerge out of it
like most people like you said they
don't want to fail failure is painful
and then their their lizard brain is
like well i avoid that right first of
all we need a new word for failure
because it's so negatively connotated
there should be a word that encourages
us to try new things
without being so hung up on how they're
how they're perceived by ourselves in
the world can i give you a new word for
it yeah sample simple it's what they use
in ai
so
i watched this because i was i teach a
class on failure in impact theory
university and
i was trying to come up with a good
analogy for it and
i started i at the same time happened to
be researching ai and i had seen this
ai learn to play a video game
and it it's uh called breakthrough it's
like an old atari game
and at first it has it just knows get a
high score but it doesn't know how to
get a score at all and so it knows okay
wait i can move the paddle and so it
starts like wiggling the paddle back and
forth like completely aimlessly
and then one time the ball randomly
happens to hit the paddle and it bounces
back up and it scores a point and so
then you see it like oh [ __ ] okay so now
i'm supposed to hit the ball so it like
it like hits the ball and then it starts
getting points
and then one time it hits on the side
and the ball goes up and starts bouncing
around at the top and that's the design
of the game right you break through at
one point and then like it will start
like getting the points for you
automatically because it gets the ball
gets trapped and it keeps scoring points
and so then these things become deadly
efficient and in ai of course the people
coding it are not going to say oh the ai
made a mistake as it's wiggling the
paddle about or when it didn't get the
high score just goes we have a sample
and so we feed these samples back into
the machine and i was like if we started
thinking of it like that i tried
something i i have a sample piece of
data now and i'm gonna take these sample
pieces of data and i'm gonna plug them
back into my mind and i'm gonna get
better um
that to me is to your point the exact
kind of thing that we need to do to free
ourselves from thinking oh when i was
wiggling the paddle it was really
embarrassing because if you imagine
that's a per like when i imagine myself
learning to play breakthrough in front
of a crowd of 10 000 people and i'm just
wiggling the paddle back and forth i'm
like that would really be embarrassing
but the ai's not embarrassed and that's
why the ai becomes this like
breakthrough machine because it just
keeps getting new samples
new sample news whether you call it
sample or failure or testing or whatever
you call it ultimately it it
you basically said like the ai was not
embarrassed right so the ai has healthy
self-esteem right exactly the ai's
self-esteem is not threatened by whether
or not this sample or test was
successful or or a failure
so
rooted in that is this sense of self and
self-esteem and this is just top of mind
right now because i had um
scott barry kaufman i came over to do my
podcast yesterday i don't know if he has
he been on your show
i know that psychologist he's fantastic
he's got this book out called transcend
he's a humanistic psychologist who's
taught at
columbia nyu like a whole bunch of plays
very credentialed guy and this book is
basically he he he he's like obsessed
with abraham maslow and maslow's
hierarchy yeah
deep dive into maslow's life and
realized that when maslow died it at in
1970 he wasn't done with his work and a
lot of what we commonly understand about
maslow's hierarchy of needs is sort of
miscast like we think of this pyramid
right and he's like maslow actually
never
used the pyramid that ended up in like
leadership you know keynotes or
something like that but he
thought of it more as
um
you know a two s like one step four two
steps back two steps forward one step
back thing like just because you have
some basic needs met you don't ascend up
like you may have you may move up that
ladder and then suddenly you know
something happens there's a famine or a
pandemic and those base needs are
threatened again so it's an ongoing kind
of thing
but a core
need in that hierarchy is self-esteem
and self-esteem is driven by external
forces and internal forces so it's what
the world thinks of you and pers and how
the world perceives you that gets
filtered into how you feel about
yourself and then there's what's going
on inside of you right
that sense that you mentioned of like i
feel like i'm not smart or you know i'm
concerned that people don't think i'm
smart those are two different things
one's internal one's external and to the
extent that we can address that and
develop healthy self-esteem
internally such that however the
external world perceives us is not
threatening that sense of self then i
think it's more empowering for us to go
out into the world and fail or sample
no doubt and i will spare people the
suffering of
what other people think doesn't matter
so the world could think that i'm smart
all day long but if i don't it won't
matter and the same is true so that's
why i liken it to money like people
think oh if i get money i will feel
about myself the way that i feel about
the people that i look at who are
wealthy and i'm you know blown away and
sure most people pursue that
delusion to the grave
and even when people who are as
successful as you get on a microphone
and tell people uh trust me you know
it's still like yeah but you know and
that's fair so just get that thing and
here's why people will chase it forever
because money is powerful it just isn't
what people think
so people think it's going to make them
feel better about themselves and that
life will just be joyous every moment
thereafter and it won't but it really
does let you do amazing things but if
you
hate yourself all the money in the world
is not going to solve that and if you
believe to your core that you'll never
be happy again
money can't touch that first of all and
then
when people believe that they commit
suicide right and it's like how many
billionaires have to commit suicide
before people realize money isn't going
to solve that thing whatever that thing
is right so yeah money solves money
problems money lets you build money lets
you create money gives you freedom it
does all of those things and so that's
why like people recognize
that it would solve certain problems
and they because it has real utility
people will never stop chasing it's the
same thing with fame fame has utility
and therefore people will chase it but
fame isn't what people are expecting nor
is money but if you know how to use them
for what they are they're great but at
the end of the day the thing that i
am just so careful about i'm very
grateful that i learned these lessons
painfully of course as i have learned
every lesson in my life through
suffering
but i learned in my 20s that money
wasn't going to be able to solve my
problems and that i needed to do that
work
but yeah getting people to do that work
also is [ __ ] hard
yeah so
if you had to identify the locus of what
brings you
satisfaction in your life like where
does that rest
the only things that really matter are
and this is what happens when two
podcasters interview each other like
you're asking me as many questions as
i'm asking it's conversations exactly
exactly
um
so
fulfillment which for me is an equation
so fulfillment is working hard i think
that's a directive that we have buried
so deeply in our brains that if you're
not doing it you will feel something
weird
so working hard to gain a set of skills
that matter to you
that allow you to
serve not only yourself but other people
so that could be through guitar that you
get so good at guitar that you're able
to make people feel something emotional
and they express their gratitude to you
for that so that's a core part of it and
then joy so to joyfully pursue
the difficult acquisition of skills that
matter to me that allow me to serve
people
um to serve myself and other people and
then i'll put one sort of caveat on that
which is my marriage is my highest
priority it's the thing that has given
me the most joy for sure
there's also something else in there
around safety about my wife holding
space and for her to be a backstop and i
read a stat and i don't remember where i
saw this but the people with the
strongest home life take the biggest
risks
and the reason i think that's true
is that i say to myself all the time i
could go broke but as long as i have my
wife i'm good and i know that's true
because i've been broke with my wife and
it was awesome
so
i don't fear losing finances i don't
fear being unsuccessful
um i fear losing my wife
that scares the piss out of me yeah
that's so interesting because again i
have this book transcend on my mind and
this hierarchy of needs and it tracks
exactly with the thesis of this book
like people who have those base needs of
security and safety sort of locked in
and
taken care of so financially you're
secure but it's really your relationship
with your wife that is the true anchor
that
sense of stability allows you to be more
engaged in risk right because you have
that
foundation there it allows you to go out
and try different things
and ultimately provides an opportunity
for your life to get even larger by dint
of the fact that you're willing to take
those risks it's fascinating
and and to the extent that you're
finding um
you know to your point about fulfillment
and purpose as you kind of move up this
hierarchy
to self-actualization and ultimately
transcendence which is where maslow was
kind of orienting his thinking um around
the time that he died but didn't
complete his work it is that idea of
of being in a place where your behaviors
and your actions are thoroughly aligned
with your values
and you're deriving great fulfillment
from the work that you're doing or
whatever it is that you're expressing in
the world and it's inextricably tied to
this sense that on some level you're
you're contributing to the betterment of
humanity in your own unique way
and that's really like
that's the key right if you can if you
can get to that place and i aspire to
that and feel like i have
some connection to that and
that's what gets me up in the morning
and gets me excited i get to do this
thing that i love
and meet all these amazing people
it also provides for my family and i'm
putting it out into the world and i and
it's raising the vibration of
the conversation or the way that people
are perceiving their own lives
it's cool
it's incredible it's really incredible
um
one thing that has always impressed me
in your story is that you have
you have some way of dealing with
failure that is pretty extraordinary so
there's obviously as an ultra endurance
athlete there was one race where you
were coughing up blood
uh which would be terrifying and um i
think was that was the race where you
had a brief a day-long break with
sobriety after 13 years which i thought
was utterly fascinating
um
how did you right the ship so fast
um sobriety-wise yeah yeah so that was
in 2011 i had trained an entire year to
compete
um in a race called ultraman which is a
double ironman race i put everything
into being as prepared as i possibly
could with the intention of
of of trying to win that race and i
showed up just so good to go and things
didn't go my way you know what caused
you to start coughing up blood uh i was
i was extremely
lean i was i was down to 158 pounds so i
think i was a little i was probably five
to seven pounds too lean for that race
in endurance it's all about your power
to weight ratio and you're trying to get
to that exact sweet spot where you're as
light as possible without sacrificing
power and i think i tipped that scale a
little bit too much towards being
too lean
and that compromised my immune system
and so when i was pushing pushing
pushing really hard i think i just had a
low-grade respiratory infection
that my body couldn't couldn't like
keep at bay and it caught up to me and
that kind of derailed that whole race
um
and what i and what happened was yeah i
ended up having a day-long relapse after
10 years of sobriety
um before we get to that moment so
you cough up blood
you decide you're not going to finish
the race what's going on in your head at
that moment are you like it's all good
or were you just raging out
i was angry and disappointed and
frustrated
a lot of sacrifice had gone into that
you know time away from family and
you know financial sacrifice like it
takes a lot of time to train for these
races it's like it's a full-time job um
so yeah i was extremely disappointed
um upset with myself confused
because i still have that you know i
wanted to control that outcome and i
couldn't control it so we haven't
discovered surrender yet no and and and
really what had happened and what i
learned in the wake of that that has has
been kind of a lever for growth
was
in the year leading up to that race i
had made
my performance in that race and my
training my higher power and i had lost
sight of
what's required to stay sober and what
the bigger picture is so it's not that i
ever thought i'm not an alcoholic and i
don't need to go to meetings anymore i i
always knew that but i just
de-prioritized
that type of self-care which has to be
my number one priority in order to be
the person that i'm capable of being and
i allowed the training in this race to
commandeer
and take higher prior you know
commandeer that focus and take a higher
priority than it should have and that
relapse was a reminder like hey you're
you're not cured and you need to sort
your [ __ ] out and remember what's most
important and so
it allowed me to
um re-enter
recovery
with a deeper sense of humility because
it's powerlessness you know i had to i
had to deepen that surrender and realize
like i can't even though yeah i'm an
alcoholic but like i haven't drank in 10
years like do i really need to go to
these meetings do i need to do all this
stuff like i'm good
and i realize like oh
it's cunning baffling and powerful
and you
forgot just how powerful it is and just
when you thought you could control it
it taught you that you don't have
control over this thing and so i had to
humble myself and i think at the same
time
after having 10 years of sobriety you
kind of i know how this works i can go
into these rooms and like i'm the guy
with the answer and i'm the guy that the
newcomer calls and i can say the right
thing and you know i'm i'm an elder you
know and there's an ego attachment to
that that needed to get destroyed and
was destroyed so i was able to return to
that with a with a deeper sense of
humility and appreciation for
the fact that
i had indulged myself well
and had forgotten that what had gotten
me to that point was a level of humility
and surrender
that
once my life started to get good again i
was like well i don't need that anymore
i had taken my power back and
misappropriated
my priorities and so now i have so much
more of a deeper appreciation for
um
for the principles that that keep me
sober and it's just enriched my
relationship with the program and the
community of people and
the tools that got me sober and continue
to keep me sober
and so understanding the part about you
had replaced your higher power did that
open
the
the path to drinking again because that
higher power had let you down as you had
to bounce out of the race is that the
problem like i don't understand why a
higher power is so effective even though
i get yeah intuitively that it is tricky
it's tricky
i put all my eggs into the basket of
this race
and that's really
uh
an active ego right i'll be okay when i
do this race and do well and i can show
everybody that i am this person or my
self-worth
is contingent upon how this race goes as
opposed to appreciating
understanding and living in the sense
that we're
all spiritual beings having a human
experience and
you know my ego is not necessarily my
friend because we're all expansive and
irrespective of what happens in the
external world we all have much to
contribute
and ultimately it's not about any of
that stuff other than how you conduct
yourself how you are of service to other
people and how you care for yourself and
your family
okay so you
have the drinks
but you very quickly are refocused
what do you start telling yourself like
what's the self narrative around
sobriety do you think
i [ __ ] this all up do you count
sobriety from the day back in 98 99
yeah it was it was uh what year was that
um yeah so yeah so i went to i went to
treatment in 98
um but yeah technically like when i
relapsed in it was the end of it was
2011.
december of 2011.
yeah you reset the date
and that's some humble pie [ __ ] you know
what i mean like i would like to tell
you that i have 24 years of sobriety
that's technically not true
and to go back into the rooms and to
call my friends
and um
you know the people that i'm close with
in the program and be like hey man i
just did this thing
like that's that's not an easy phone
call to make you know that humble pie um
but ultimately did you ever consider not
telling anyone
oh yeah the addict in you is like
no one needs to know this
do i i could
that's th that's that's the addict voice
like
i can get away with this just go back
and pretend like everything's okay but
then you're not living in integrity you
know and the the longer that i'm sober
and the more work i do on myself the
more intolerant i become
for
behaviors that are not in alignment with
the person
that i would li