Kind: captions
Language: en
right now i think
my deepest fear is actually i have this
like
opportunity fomo so i constantly have
this fear that i'm like missing
opportunities i think that's one of the
reasons i wrote this book and one reason
i'm obsessed with cues is because i am
terrified that i am missing things
i feel like i missed the memo on social
interactions right like that's my entire
career is trying to write up that memo
again
and that really hurt me
it really slowed me down for so many
years it destroyed my confidence
it made me have bad relationships made
me ignore cues
i think for a long time i had really
toxic people in my life
and i didn't spot the cues
and so i think i'm terrified of
underestimating others
i'm terrified of missing things that i
shouldn't have missed or not listening
to my gut
vanessa van edwards welcome back to the
show thank you so much for having me i'm
really excited to talk about your book
which feels like this sort of natural
progression from captivate which smashed
and now i want you to in as few words as
possible
tell me what is charisma
charisma is the perfect blend of being
likable and powerful
that was really
boom
or something all right so likeable and
powerful so now break those two elements
down for me so likeability okay so i
think that what there's there's a
mistake that happens with very smart
people this is the one that we see the
most often is really smart intelligent
people they want to hit you with their
smarts they want to be impressive and so
they come into interaction or on a video
call and they're like i want to blow you
away as they mention accolades and
numbers and fancy facts and rehearsed
answers and people will see them as
impressive capable powerful but cold
intimidating
hard to talk to
and so and this is what the research
found
competence without warmth leaves people
feeling suspicious
suspicious why is this suspicious this
is from dr susan fisk that is a direct
quote i memorized it because it took my
breath away when i read it
because i realized for so long
as you know i'm a recovering awkward
person i would try to you know impress
people and and make sure that they liked
me and so i would try to blow them away
with smarts and the problem is is that
when you do that it leaves people
feeling suspicious and that's because
when we don't have likability likability
softens our power
when we add the warmth plus competence
so likable friendly compassionate
trustworthy plus capable powerful
impressive that's the sweet spot and the
study what they did is they had
participants look at short clips of
politicians they didn't know these
politicians they had them watch these
clips of politicians and they asked them
two different questions who is warm
likeable and trustworthy and who is
dominant powerful and capable
the politicians who had only one of
those were not rated as charismatic they
were not as successful they weren't as
successful in real life or just in the
study in the study they were ranked very
low on the charisma scale so they could
be seen as trustworthy but if they
weren't all so powerful they were not
seen as compelling they were not seen as
convincing they weren't seen as
memorable so the biggest challenge i
think we have to be charismatic is to
show up as our warmest
most competent self but it has to be
that balance
of course and that's why it's amazing
but it's like talk about feeling like
you're being pulled in two opposite
directions and i find i find it
i don't want to use the wrong word here
i
i find it easy to be warm yeah and i
find it easy to be intense
i find it difficult to be warm and
intense although you didn't use the word
intense use powerful but i guess i don't
like i like it moniker at myself but yes
so warm and intense i find
extraordinarily difficult yes warm or
intense okay that's a lot easier to make
you feel better okay
actually the research finds they can be
chronological okay and this is extremely
helpful like this is like next level yes
warmth okay okay why as humans when we
first meet another human the very first
question we ask about them is can i
trust you
right so like from across the room on a
video call in an email
we are looking can i trust you are you
on my side are you a threat
can i can i make sure that i'm not going
to be at harm not just physical harm but
even like emotional harm are you on my
side the next question we answer and it
is the next question is can i rely on
you
so let's take an email for example
because that's a the easy we can control
all the elements
in a really good email we do this
sometimes naturally but not always the
subject
and the opener should be warm
maybe the opening line is also warm and
the content the body of the email is
competent competent competent and the
sign-off is your choice
so for example when we look at words i
love the power of word choice what
research finds is when we read words
like collaborate we are more likely to
be collaborative when we read words like
power we are more likely to be powerful
here's a specific study it's a little
complicated can i go can i go deep yeah
yeah please the study like blew my mind
so here's what they did they had
participants come into the lab and they
gave them like a quiz like a math test
they had to solve
one set of participants got a set of
directions that was very simple it said
please take this test take your time
answer all the questions correctly the
second group got us out the same set of
directions but they sprinkled in a
couple
of high achievement words or achievement
oriented words so achievement-oriented
words are like win succeed master
achieve we love those words they like
give us the tinglies okay they just
sprinkled them in they wanted to know if
just adding in a couple of achievement
oriented words would change participants
behavior
just those achievement-oriented words
made them get more answers right so it
actually changed their performance in
other words reading the word win
makes you think more like a winner it
changes your physiology to be more like
a winner
second that's where i think it gets more
interesting
it doubled doubled their desire to work
on the task
so it made them work on the quiz longer
and it made them enjoy working on the
quiz
and lastly it actually changed their
physiology so when we read what were
they measuring
so how many questions i got right but
when you say it change their physiology
how do we know yes they are measuring
the amount of testosterone or dopamine
or oxytocin they took their blood levels
i believe it was either blood or saliva
wow so see if their physiology would
change
so when we read words like this it
actually changes how we think and how we
feel so i share this because i think
we send emails or we have a linkedin
profile and we throw at you
hey everyone uh today we have to get a
lot of things done it's gonna be really
busy week let's make sure that we
overcome all those challenges when you
write words like busy people are
literally primed to be busier
when you write words like challenge
they're more likely to be challenged so
going back to warmth and competence
it's a challenge for everyone if you
open up your last five sent emails to
important people only the important ones
and you count the number of warm words
you're using and the number of competent
words you're using you will see exactly
how you're coming across to others
but the best thing you can do is open
with warmth hit him with competence and
end with purpose the number of times
that i've written an email where i'm
like okay let's do this where literally
the first word is let's do this
or text even worse
and
then i'm about to hit send yeah and i'm
like let me just quick go back to this
and i'm like oh my god hi good morning
you know like to add something although
after reading the book i realize i'm
adding sort of the lamest most boring
easy to tune out words humanly possible
but are you usually adding warmth or
competence
oh i don't think of it i'm always trying
to add warmth i never think about the
competence i'm always just uh
goal oriented so the the the thought
that triggers in my head is always there
is something very specific and concrete
i'm trying to accomplish yes and i go
right to it yes and i find so every
every time i read your books or
we get to sit down together we're on
camera or off camera i become hyper
aware
in a good way because i think that too
often i'm not thinking through
like i'm in my head i know what i'm
trying to do
but i forget that you really do have to
do the emotional management the
relationship management especially when
you have employees it's if that every
time you touch somebody it's like
accumulating into their perception of
who you are and so if all i'm ever doing
is goal oriented and i'm not taking the
time to connect with them as a human it
gets weird so anyway i don't think about
warmth or competence yes in the first
pass because i'm i'm just in the task
yes then i go back and i do a warmth
pass yes
usually i'm sure i forget yeah yes um
but it is
it's
very interesting how
your default mode doesn't take any of
that into consideration right and i
think that that's why we're so burnt out
what do you mean by that i think the
reason why we're all like i'm in this
malaise like the days are so long why
we're so burnt out is because
our way that we communicate has changed
and we're trying to get things done
we've become a very task is this
specific to covid no i think this is
already brewing you said the way that we
work has changed i think the way that we
work has changed i think since uh video
calls emails and digital communications
been easy and then it got exacerbated by
covid because what's happening is
our way of communication is changing so
we're putting more out right our output
for communication i i i don't know
quadruple
10x think about the days where we didn't
have email phone or text just phone we
maybe had an in-person conversation with
a colleague and in person conversation
with our partner we maybe picked up the
phone and called someone what is that
the maximum you could have 20 or 30
interactions in a day at the max but
that's only if you're isolated because
so recently we started having people if
they wanted to come back to the house
you have to test every day blah blah
blah
and yesterday was the first day where
like there were quite a few people here
yes and we were all sitting around the
table and i was like wow this is so the
amount of communication i would have
said is way higher but it was all
informal
so it was like it wasn't a meeting it
wasn't like a like if i send a text it
has a really specific agenda i'm trying
to get to this right it was you know
goofing around it was being more playful
it was
quick like things about hey have you
talked to this person that kind of thing
and i was like
whoa whoa because i've i've said to
people hey you know i'm a little worried
about working from home because i love
it as a sort of
i will say i'm introverted i'm i'm an
ambivert to your point and you talk
about you go into that in the book but
but i'm also almost isolationist when
i'm in introvert mode yes where it's
like i don't want to see or talk to
anybody i put over-the-ear headphones i
don't want people interrupting me or
talking to yes
and but i began to like uh i'm a little
worried on the creative side that's
where i've always focused on the
creative side that we're losing energy
and it's hard to get people excited
about something when it's like you know
this asynchronous communication and
yesterday when people were in the room i
was like oh my god like just the the
human connection and the fun yes and the
flood of chemicals right so i think that
when we're in person and there was what
maybe five or ten people those are five
or ten connections that you're having
all day or during a meeting
in a digital world or we're having
online connection we could have hundreds
right like every text we send is is its
own unique communication and that burns
us out because it's giving us all these
same information without the chemicals
right so
in person so with you the timing of this
conversation is so on point for what's
going on in my life we have to manage
that right like i want you to be aware
that okay if people come over i'm
getting way more chemicals i'm getting
the oxytocin of the handshake i'm
getting oxytocin from the eye contact
i'm getting dopamine because we're
smiling and laughing together
and i'm getting the information i've
been getting for the last you know
couple months
in a text or an email or even a video
call it shrinks
we're getting way less of the good
chemicals way less of the dopamine and
oxytocin but the same amount of
information
i think that is why we're so burnt out
so i think the more that we can take
control of our cues so you know i've
always struggled with confidence i've
always tried to grasp that you know that
amazing spirit i think the only way to
do it is control for me that i think
that content controlling the environment
controlling my cues okay so i think that
the only way that i feel confident is if
i know okay i have this important email
i have to send to a team member
and here's the information i get across
i do the same thing as you i think most
people do i get the information out
first typically right like here's what
has to get done
and then i add in the warmth typically
in the first
10 words and this is a really easy way
to do it for yourself this is only when
it's important it doesn't have to be
every email
i think okay what is the person what do
i want this person to feel if i were
with them in person what would i want to
gift them when i want to give them
excitement like get excited about gift i
think it's a gift i think that we can
prevent burnout by gifting the right
chemicals right like it takes effort
like a gift so i'm like okay i want this
person to be excited about this project
i'm going to use words that cue for
excitement and this is literally what
the research shows that when we say
things like what are you excited about
or i can't wait for this project or i'm
looking forward to this those are
excitement words or do i want a gift
strategy
do i want to gift efficiency do i know
that we are pushed for time and i want a
gift streamline collaborate brainstorm
credible
the more i use those words the more i am
literally gifting that testosterone that
chemical so i think that that's how we
can next level it's like next level we
can gift those chemicals to people in
our in-person interactions but also in
our emails and our videos
i find really interesting about that is
that you're
cueing
not only to other people but to yourself
even selecting the word gift which is an
interesting reframe for me as i think
about that
think about the different interactions
and what i want to communicate but even
choosing that word feels very different
than communicate or
even give yeah
that's yeah that's really powerful
getting the framing device right so that
whatever your sort of emotional goals
are and you just cued me that you want
to talk this is so interesting and you
go into detail about this like the cues
that people will do
um
walk me through what just happened in
the last nine seconds okay so i
really wanted to reframe you because you
were wanting to get it done which was
good and we were talking about like how
do we make it better how do we get it
done and the reframe i wanted to give
was this is like a gift and how did you
interrupt me though without saying a
word
i so first i was using the word gift
which i think already was like like your
brain was like oh that's something
different and then also i leaned into
you right and i widened my eyebrows a
little bit just to show like we're open
like we're getting into this so like
those were two high warmth cues so we
think about non-verbal i was trying to
cue you for warmth right so i leaned a
little bit more and by the way this
changes our brain so the study that i
share in the book which is just try
anyone just try leaning in a little bit
it will actually activate a different
area of your brain so when i lean in a
little bit you lean in a little bit more
like your head actually in a bit which
activates your motivation
and then even just taking a breath and
slightly opening your mouth i was like
up i know
it it is so i knew exactly that you had
something to say and i think we all take
it for granted how you can use that in
the book you walk people through hey if
there's somebody that's talking too much
and you need to interrupt them but you
don't want to like please okay okay okay
so this is like a superpower so if i
have anyone who's uh introvert um anyone
who's awkward anyone who lacks uh social
assertiveness i think social
assertiveness is actually like a hidden
trait that everyone should learn because
to be socially assertive it means you're
putting your needs forward but you're
being polite about it right so you're
not you're not people pleasing you're
not betting over okay so this is if you
have an interrupter so you have someone
who constantly interrupts you you have a
couple techniques first is the open
mouth which i just did to you um so the
open mouth i call it the fish so if you
want to say something new
right and the bigger the open the more
they'll notice this works on video calls
this works in person so if someone's
talking to you
you're like oh she can say something
you'll bookmark it you'll literally be
oh wait she has to say something so try
opening the mouth the second one is we
are very cute that a hand raise
or even a finger raise means
one moment can i say something and so if
you have someone who's talking or who
interrupted you you can literally
that a little bookmark or a little like
it's like a pupil right like you're
raising your hand and the next level is
you actually reach out and touch them
and that's like my least favorite but if
you really have some least favorite
because in this world if we're six feet
apart right it's really hard to cross
that space boundary and also some people
aren't comfortable with touch so i
reserve that one if you're only like i
really need to get their attention touch
is like the nuclear weapon or maybe
plutonium is the right word it's the
plutonium of communication it can be
used to create nuclear power or an
atomic bomb
i i don't think we talked about this in
the last time they were together but i
went out on um a business evening with a
woman who
touched so much that i was almost
laughing to myself
and
no i know and it actually wasn't awkward
and what made it
so interesting was how hyper aware of it
i was and that it still worked
and i was like how is this possible like
it was working yeah like forearm hand oh
my god laughing shoulder i was like what
is happening right now i felt like i was
at a magic show so this is a this is a
thing that magicians do they acclimate
you to being touched so when they pick
your pocket you've just been so used to
them touching you don't even notice wait
can i ask you where did she touch you uh
arm arm shoulder okay so yes so
this is for if you want to be a toucher
if you want to like use this plutonium i
like that word um keep in mind that um
the further up the arm you go the more
intimate the touch so like if you want
to start with a touch like a hand touch
is the least intimate the most safe
right so if someone's like talking like
this you could reach out and touch their
hand that's the most i'm so like
germaphobic now if somebody's if you
touch my arm i'm fine if you touch my
hands like yo
those are fighting words i wonder if
that's changed it like now because our
hands can't i would certainly be worried
about it okay so for the and back is
usually okay like but the more the lower
we go the more intimate touch because i
was just curious if it was all here it
was and it broke down like every barrier
that i had it was so
interesting because i would i am so
weird about that i would never reach out
and touch somebody that i did not know
extraordinarily well
and
yeah like it was really it was really
interesting
so well i was like
i know this is a thing i can't bring
myself to do it yeah and yet as
somebody's doing it to me and i it was
so frequent she must have touched me
you're gonna think i'm kidding 42 times
in the night i mean it was hilarious
and effective okay so let's talk about
touch so uh the reason why touch works
is because it produces oxytocin we also
can self-produce oxytocin so that's why
like if you rub your hands whenever i
have um students who are really nervous
i say self-touch
and the reason for this is because you
can literally be clean boys and girls
yeah i knew i had to forgive me i i was
like do i do it or i let him do it i was
like softball just give me okay so yep
i'm practicing being warm you see i love
it i love it self touch pg right so you
can like rub your arms like this will
literally produce oxytocin um justin
bieber does uh havening have you heard
of havening because of you yes okay so
uh havening is when we like try to
stimulate our senses you'll notice he'll
often like rub his head i'm not gonna do
it because my hair looks cute today so
i'm not gonna do it today but you rub
our head or you can rub your arms to
literally trigger that oxytocin i saw in
you we were talking about justin bieber
and you did a self-hug
and you started doing it on camera you
actually got lost i'm not gonna do it
right now because i'm worried it's gonna
lose me it's so interesting i'm going to
do it okay i'm doing it too just do it
this way
and then take a deep breath
yeah that
it does feel nice
i don't i don't know if i'm getting it
from the touch or i really when i close
my eyes and breathe deeply
i actually did get full body chills yeah
but like what yeah what
that is
that that just happened like don't you
feel like we're good i don't know if it
for me if it was the hug or the deep
breath closing my eyes and deep
breathing that alters my neurochemistry
so fast yeah and
so getting into
self-soothing for me anyway is i touch
my face so
the little tickles that that gives me
just feels awesome yes
but
meditative breathing with my eyes closed
and i remember being so excited to gift
lisa the power of meditation and being
like oh my god sit comfortably close
your eyes over the ear headphones sound
of nature and just breathe through your
diaphragm and
the first breath i ever took like that
was life-changing because it it changed
my neurochemistry so rapidly yes and
lisa was like this is like i
don't feel anything and i was like what
i was utterly shocked okay so let's talk
about self-soothing for a second because
this is a pat this is like a powerful
kind of back pocket tool if you've ever
been in a meeting and you blanked out
you want to give yourself a distancing
behavior or gift yourself a distancing
behavior the problem is is when you're
in it right so you're in a presentation
you're on stage you're on a video call
you're on a date and you blank out
you're in it usually you're like leaned
in you're lean forward you want to do it
what people make the mistake of doing is
they go further in they go um
um
um have you ever seen people like on
stage i've been that person yes
yes
they're literally like trying where is
it and they're trying to get it that is
actually the worst thing you can do
you're actually overloading your
prefrontal cortex by trying to get more
what i want you to actually do is back
up
so i want you to give yourself physical
and emotional distance so if you're in
that just
take a step back either sit back or take
a step back
try to angle your head back and if you
can even if it's subtle just
that changes the nature of your brain
when you take a step back research has
found that when you literally take a
step back you are able to get more
perspective
so if you ever blank out don't lean in
lean back take a step back take a breath
back grab your water right
right i'm back with you here's what i
was saying
that's how i want you to do it it's
super smooth and it actually helps that
reset that's what we're actually doing
for ourselves and if you're alone of
course
you can do the self touch your super
sternal notch this little notch right
here between your two collarbones
between between the two collars i don't
find myself touching there but i am
obsessed with where like here yeah i
don't know why and as i was reading in
the book i'm like is this a blocking
behavior am i
doing something subconsciously this is
absolutely a self-soothing behavior like
the reason why that feels so good and so
when we touch even anywhere in this area
including like our neck it reminds us of
like calm down calm down interesting so
like a very subtle thing this stuff is
so weird it's so weird that we have like
all these
weird self touching like i don't know
why we picked all the weird ones but
like like if i might fiddle with
anything i will fiddle with my neck and
i will touch whatever this part of the
clavicle is because it feels so good
yeah because you know that instinctively
that's giving you a nice physiological
response of staying calm anywhere in
here is that now touching your face is
something important i just want to talk
about is um
research finds that when we self touch
especially our face
and our stomach
and these i don't know how we're talking
about all the weird ones
people people perceive that as closer to
deception or nervousness
nervousness i get but why
i think it's because i obsessively
palpate my adipose tissue around my
stomach so basically another way i pinch
my fat
so i do it all the time to see like how
far under the skin is my muscle tone you
have to otherwise you can get out of
control that because i don't weigh
myself so that's my way of knowing like
okay am i in shack where am i and so but
i never thought of it as a soothing
behavior
maybe another reason why subconsciously
i'm doing but when i say i do it i do it
60 times a day
have you talked about this before i did
not notice that i well i'm never going
to do it on camera and if i'm yeah if
you hung around me long enough you would
see me do it a lot well now i know why
though yeah okay so let's talk about it
so i think the reason why this
internally our brain is like ooh
deception
is because liars want to hold things
back and liars are typically very
nervous in the book by the way you do
some awesome breakdowns of like here's
this famous person lance armstrong bill
clinton a-rod and like you give the
moments and like it's really interesting
to watch back that stuff and like you
watch back you're like oh i didn't see
that cute i like cues hiding in plain
sight that's like my favorite so liars
yes like lance armstrong for example
when he was on larry king live saying he
wasn't doping spoiler alert
he doped right he lip-pursed he pressed
his lips together because he wanted to
like withhold the lie so liars often
want to withhold because they know lying
gets them into trouble they also are
very nervous they're trying to
self-soothe so they typically touch
their face and there are three areas of
the face that they touch
eyes nose and mouth researchers found
this so just to maximize getting sick
it's wonderful true and liars will get
sick more often right i don't know about
that that's not research claims that's
not respect but why so um like for
example they found there's like a
pinocchio's nose effect that when we lie
our nose the tissue in our nose gets a
little bit itchy they found that when we
are lying we want to like block out the
lie so we eye block so uh when people
when when liars are lying they'll be
like
yeah you know it's
it's just been really hard and um
and they'll fuss at their eyes because
they also have they want to block it out
with a high blink rate so britney spears
some of her early interviews when she's
asked really hard questions
all of a sudden she'll
i mean i i just really want to i don't
know i just want to talk about that but
the reason that i'm talking about it and
she has this like
rapid blink rate
and that is because we are trying to
block it out and the last one is mouth
touch liar is like when i asked my
daughter did you take the cookie she'll
go um
no
she covers her are you gonna teach her
about the strategies and if so what age
so i've already started teaching facial
expressions i've already used them or
what you're looking at to spot them
interesting so like for example she's
three and a half wow
oh and it's so helpful to her because
again control right like i didn't get
confidence naturally but the more that
i've been in control of the cues i'm
sending to others and also
seeing the cues that are being sent to
me the more confident i feel so we're on
the playground and she'll say i want to
play with her or should i go ask them to
play i'll say well look at their face do
they look happy
or do they look sad
and if they look happy i say well she
looks happy why don't you go over and
ask her and then i say look at her face
if she says she's happy and she wants to
play with you she wants to play with you
or does she look sad so we practice the
facial expressions and she knows them
like she knows and we're watching a
spanish movie and she doesn't speak
spanish one day hopefully
and she could say oh why she said why is
he sad mama
because he and even the cartoon
character was showing classic sadness so
sadness is an upside down u so we pull
our mouth down and then we pinch the
corners of our eyebrows and we droop our
lids
like that even the cartoon character was
showing that face and she could see he
was sad so i think as young as possible
i never would have thought to
train a kid to do that but i know one
thing you've talked about is when you
like your entire team has to watch your
how to spot a liar i don't remember if
that's the exact word but basically how
to determine if somebody's lying hughes
which i think is interesting but i would
think with kids it'd be good to hold
some of that back and don't think i
missed the cue that you want to say
something i do so
listen i always would have hard truth
over ignorant bliss right if she's ready
for it i'd rather teach it to her i also
think like it allows you to choose if
you're going to respond you don't always
have to respond to a cue so for example
this is a cue this this study really
changed the way i think about cues it
and it was i talked about in the book a
little bit but it really had a major
impact in my life which is a study very
simply where if you see a cue of social
rejection okay
it's accused of socialism you're being
rejected
so if you see or decode a cue of social
rejection on someone else which is why
we're very aware of cues without
realizing it so cues of social rejection
are eye rolls scoffs even a social
rejection tone of voice like
yeah i don't really like that
we know that's a social rejection tone
of voice okay
when we see iq of social rejection our
own field of vision widens
we literally see more our pupils change
when we spot in less than a second a
queue of social rejection
this is really helpful to know because
it means if you see a negative cue your
body knows
you have to look out for more you have
to see and why do we take in more we
have to see is anyone else sending a cue
of social rejection is everyone else
okay do i have an escape route what's my
plan of action
so if your body is already doing this if
my daughter
at three and a half already is doing
that why not give her a name
for what that is so then she can decide
i want to address that social cue of
rejection or i'm good i don't need their
approval talk to me about addressing it
okay so let's i really like addressing
cues i like addressing them in the room
so one cue this is not a typical cue of
social rejection but i think it's an
important one to know is a lower lid
flex we're going to talk about the weird
cues let's just let's just go right into
the weird ones so lower lid flex so
we're trying to see something from far
away so if for example steel
blue steel right yeah give me blue steel
right so it's the heart on the lower lid
if you're right now try to see something
across the room try to see the detail on
the wall
you'll s you'll harden your lower lids
to see it okay this is a universal
response when we want to see more we
widen our eyes and fear our surprise
we're trying to see detail or scrutinize
something we harden our lower lid it
lowers the amount of light that can come
into our eye so we can see more detail
this is not a typical key of social
rejection however if you're talking to
someone and all of a sudden they lower
lid flex you i do it all the time right
it means that someone just went into
deep listening mode correct at least
that's how i intend that is it's
literally when you said intense way at
the beginning of the interview
i thought ah that explains tom's lower
lid flex
because that's what you do in your
interviews you'll nod which is high
warmth oh my god i'm not too much though
no you don't knock too much we probably
cut some of it out oh okay sometimes i
do feel like a bobble head would you
mention don't be a bubble head okay so
nodding is a warmth cue you typically i
don't even know if you realize you do
this you will balance out your knotting
with a competence cue with it which is a
lid flex
so when you certainly don't do it on
purpose but right but that is your
intensity so like right you're deeply
listening to me what is she saying what
was that what was that study and i can
see you are deeply listening and then
you'll balance it out with a warmth cue
that is how very highly charismatic
people and i would put you in that
bucket whether you would or not
i would put you in that bucket of highly
charismatic people is you are naturally
balancing out that warmth and competence
we find lower lid flexes super
attractive and i don't mean like
physically attractive i mean we want
people who want to deeply listen to us
and so that's why
when you look at really hot actors or
models or blue steel they're always
smizing or lower lid flexing or flinty
eyes because it shows intensity and we
like people who are intensely into us so
the reason i bring this up as a social
rejection cue
is because it can show scrutiny
it can show that someone is reevaluating
or judging what you're going to say and
so when you're talking to a group of
people or one person and all of a sudden
they're lower lid flexing and you're on
a something positive great but if you're
making a point or you're challenging
something addressing it would sound like
does that make sense
all good
any questions right there
when i'm teaching you you wouldn't like
call it out specifically like yeah
yeah exactly
that's the kind of thing i would do for
sure i mean listen if you read this as a
team you want to do it i have teams that
do that cool but i like like the just
like the soft like are we good
does that make sense all good yeah i
like verbal it also can be a nonverbal
so um what do you do though if you see
the and you talk in the book like you
want a cluster so let's say you're
seeing a cluster of responses any one
thing in isolation it could be
meaningless but you see that cluster
they're really giving you cues you say
we good any questions there and they're
like yeah we're good but you know
there's something going on okay
so i usually will follow up with some
kind of confirmation depending on how
hard it is so all good yeah we're all
good i'm like okay
mental note that there was something
that was going on there so i will
typically this is like advanced level
but if something is really like i know i
saw that cluster i know i saw a couple
red flags in a row that i don't like and
this matters
i will typically change the mode of
communication so if we were in person i
will ask an email just confirming
you were all good on point point point
if we were in email and i noticed some
suspicious verbal things i will switch
to in person if we're on video i'll try
to switch to phone because i find that
if you give someone a minute and you try
a different mode of communication
usually you can get a little bit more
information so when it really matters to
me i will ask in a different way in a
different mode it's interesting what do
you think about my technique
which is i won't say that i do it every
time because i do try to be deft i try
to read the room and you know what my
relationship is with the person
but i am
very likely to say
you know something like you know we all
good yeah yeah we're fine
you made a facial expression help me
understand because it definitely read
like you're upset or whatever and i just
want to make sure that you know whatever
love it so that works you can also say
you're saying all good but you don't
look like it's all good
and that's something you can also do
with your partner right like if they're
like i'm fine
yeah no that would be it doesn't sound
fine
i want it to be fine it doesn't sound
fine so yes i think that you can you can
also verbally vary and that's like not
an aggressive way of doing is like are
you sure you're good you don't look good
and then they can explain oh yeah no i'm
just nervous about something else or you
know what you're right i do have some
hesitations or no no i really am good
right like i i like that if you're brave
enough to do it that's the social just
sort of way to do it i like it i like it
with your partner do you have like a
code word
so like lisa and i if i can see on her
face there's something wrong yeah and i
use this very sparingly because i
actually want lisa to be able to take an
exit ramp if she doesn't want to talk
about it or whatever but i'll if i
really need to know i'll be like you
promise you're okay yeah now
in our marriage if somebody says do you
promise
that
whatever is about to come out of your
mouth better be the truth no matter like
how brutal it is do you have anything
like that so um
yes we have a physical one that we do
where i tell me more so like if i think
he's
like not good or not telling me
something i'll take his face in my hands
like this and i'll be like are you sure
babe so like it's like a deep it's like
a touch it's like a very intimate touch
and all like are you sure
and so for me he'll often like touch my
shoulder or touch my arm or my lower
back are you sure that like anchor touch
did you guys discuss that like would he
be surprised hearing you say this now i
think he would be a little bit no no i
think he would be like oh yeah we do
that we haven't discussed it interesting
but like when it's like it's like are
you it's like it's like close the
outside world around are we good that or
like are you are babe are you sure
that's that's like a physical touch
thing he's also physical touch love
language okay so i think that that's
where it came from as we discussed that
we were that he was physical touch
that's interesting it going back to
warmth and high fives and stuff you talk
about in the book even like on a
zoom call saying like hey i'm sending
you a high five and that even things
like that can cue people into feeling
something yes so this was a hypothesis i
had right at the beginning of the
pandemic we're all going on video and
i'm i
i missed the
the social tradition of a high five or a
handshake and i wondered
do we need to replace it do we even need
to and can we
and so i partnered with dr paul zack who
runs immersion neuroscience he's like
the oxytocin guy whenever we talk about
oxytocin we're actually piggybacking on
his original research he's absolutely
brilliant he's like though he wrote the
moral molecule
have you ever taken exogenous oxytocin
in the nose yeah never but i really want
to have you done it i have but mixed
with ketamine oh i've never and i didn't
like the ketamine i'd like to try just
the nasal spray yeah i got so hyped
about it let's go do it babe like we're
going to do it together it's going to be
amazing she's like no i don't want
anything artificial i'm like oxytocin is
very i mean it's very close to our
chemicals you know his lab is like
really close we could all go do it dude
i would do a nasal spray of oxytocin all
day any day this is by the way dr zach
is the guy who did the vampire wedding
the vampire the vampire wedding like
they got married as vampires no
no he talks he calls the vampire wedding
he's the one who he went to a wedding i
don't know how dr zach is super
charismatic and so i he can't convince
anyone of anything he's probably giving
us all oxytocin
that's a good strategy here's what he
did he convinced a wedding to go to the
wedding and take everyone's blood at the
wedding whoa i know so he took the
bride's bread the groom's bread everyone
in the wedding he took their their their
blood and what he found was is that you
could predict
how close people were to the bride based
on how much oxytocin was in their blood
whoa
right so that's cool it's super cool so
the more people felt bonded to the bride
the closer they were the more oxytocin
they had in their blood i believe there
was one exception and forgive me this
one i think it was
the mother-in-law was even higher than
the groom i think it was something funny
like that the mother-in-law was so
oxytocin filled for her daughter wow
sorry not the mother-in-law the mother
of the bride was was even higher than
the groom because she was like so happy
with her with her daughter i have to
check that one really interesting yes so
oxytocin is is is real and it's very
nuanced so i feel like a nose shot of
oxytocin it would make us do all kinds
of interesting it would like open our
brain up in a connection kind of a way
it's a fascinating molecule that has
huge implications in trust yes which is
the when i first started reading about
it i was like oh this is really
interesting like if you have
a group and you need to develop more
trust it could be a really interesting
way it could also though potentially get
you into trouble if it's creating trust
with somebody that you shouldn't trust
oh that is how con men work i will tell
you
my biggest concern with this book is it
will get in the wrong hands
like a question that i get that
is the is the question which is like
what's the difference between this and
manipulation
and i think there is
a terrifying line for me and it was
something that caused me some writer's
block i'll be honest while i was writing
where i'm so terrified that these cues
will be used for evil not good
and they can be and they are i mean
that's how con men work and that is one
of the reasons that what i
what i can convince myself of is i would
rather equip people to know these cues
you said that woman was touching you and
you knew she was touching you and it was
working i would rather you be aware of
the cues that are being sent to you to
know i want this or i don't because they
are that powerful
that if someone has bad intentions they
can still produce trust and that makes
me nervous
yeah i don't think you will ever be able
to control stuff like this but it would
be a bit like i'm not going to teach
mixed martial arts because the person
might use it to beat somebody up that's
true so it's like i'd rather have the
people that can use it to either like
you have done overcome awkwardness and
use it i mean even the book reads very
much like a manual for somebody who
wants to
improve their life take it to the next
level i think the sub headliner on the
back of the book it says like uh if
you're tired of being um overlooked
overlooked underestimated or interrupted
yeah and underestimated that was the one
that really hit me was
giving people the tools in fact the
we've already talked about this but the
um
[Music]
being able to give people subtle cues
that you want to interject yeah and
a lot of people i think end up getting
steamrolled and they get angry at the
other person
instead of going i'm going to take
control here to your point yes
and be able to signal people and you
give this progression of well you can
start subtle you can do the fish
whatever but then you know we get to the
point where it's like yo stop but being
able to um give people the tools so that
they can be better equipped to do this
stuff and then i definitely like
in relationships
it is so easy to be inside your own head
to have a paranoia about like i want to
make sure that i'm following this or
that i'm coming across well or whatever
that you actually stop reading the cues
and then you can get blindsided i think
about this a lot as an employer it's
like you're constantly trying to make
sure
that everybody's okay and that you
actually know what's going on inside
people's lives and when somebody will
end up hitting a breaking point that you
didn't see coming it's like ah did i
ignore something
and so yeah reading nonverbal cues i
think is about as close to a superpower
as you're going to get and also um vocal
cues you know we talked about number one
we talked a little about verbal but i
also think that we hear tension
you know i think that's something that
we is an underestimated cue that we
don't talk about enough but our voice
gives away a lot of our personality and
our mental state it's the other thing
that like trust your gut on what you're
hearing so talk about the gut yes okay
so i think that
we know this instinctively but if we're
not listening for it we ignore it and
that is i've so been in that place you
just mentioned where you're like did i
miss something like is someone burnt out
and i didn't even see these cues coming
and so if you're listening to your gut
and your intuition more and you know
what you're hearing i think you're like
ah i just heard that how does the gut
work in your mind
so i think that
we have this amazing muscle right this
amazing whatever you want to call the
brain this amazing piece of anatomy that
is constantly reading all these
thousands of cues that are being sent to
us and it gives us a spidey sense it
gives us an intuitive hit of like
something is off and what we tend to
think is we go into productivity mode
did we meet the deadline did we get it
done was she late was she on time she's
been slow to respond to that email right
like when i get that spidey sense i
typically go i used to go to task right
like is there something off in the in
performance or behavior and task i
actually want you to go the other way i
want you to go to communication i want
you to be like does she sound okay and
let's talk about what what does it mean
to sound okay so what research has found
is that we hold a lot of tension in our
vocal cords right so when we don't take
up a lot of space like for example if i
were to do this interview with my
shoulders rolled in and my chin down you
already hear a kind of tightness in my
voice and so when someone's on a video
call or on a phone call they're like
yeah so i'm just going to give over my
weekly updates and
and you can hear that tension because it
sounds different than when there's space
when you're listening for tension i
think that it can give away that fatigue
that's coming that smallness that
someone is literally playing small so
you're listening for one is smallness so
as i take up less space i begin to uh
create less volume you're also looking
for vocal fry so vocal fry i don't think
we don't talk about enough do you have
you talked about our dress vocal fry on
the show no only i i never had a name
for it until i read this book and i
realized that i actually have somebody
here at impact theory that has vocal fry
and i was like every time i hear it i'm
like it seems like she's anxious
and when you described it i was like
okay so vocal fry is when it sounds
gross but when our vocal cords rattle
together because there isn't enough air
that is coming through them so right now
i'm working really hard to give enough
air enough i'm actually not working that
hard we're having a conversation but if
i were nervous if you were to ask me a
very hard question or if i was feeling
burnt out tired dismissed
i would lose my volume and then i would
go into vocal fry
yeah vocal cry is when we're like
talking like this and where sort of not
enough breath is coming through and so
you can hear that rattle in the back of
my throat now if i were to give my
entire interview like this it would
drive you absolutely crazy
right it's good yeah
so vocal fry is very simple it's when
we're don't have enough breath to give
our voice so one and this is double you
have to hear when are you hearing it
is it because someone literally hasn't
been talking all day and it's gonna get
themselves revved up is it because
they're actually anxious or nervous like
all of a sudden they went from hey
everyone good to see you oh this is
going to be great
so um my announcement is like really
basic and then all of a sudden they go
into it
and then how do you want to address it
so do you want to address the emotion or
the cue this
is the challenge we have as cue readers
are you going to address the emotion or
the queue so do you want to say
afterwards are we all good on that and i
just want to make sure that you're
feeling good or follow up in an email
hey i just want to double check on you
lindsay are you sure you're feeling good
about that so that's addressing what you
think might be happening or do you want
to address the cue if you want to get
rid of vocal fry all you have to do is
ask someone to speak up
that's fascinating that's it if you ask
someone to speak up they have to use my
breath they go oh yeah sure
and they force more air out of their
breath and they immediately get out of
vocal fry i've been in presentations
before where someone is giving away
their power with vocal fry they have
amazing content but they are literally
giving the entire presentation like this
and so it's really hard to listen to and
it sounds like they just don't believe
in what they're saying
and so i will say to them hey in the
back we can't quite hear you can you
hear the back and i'll immediately speak
up and get out of it so that's also a
gift you can give someone if