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Language: en
hey everybody welcome to another episode
of impact books today we are going over
none other than stealing Fire by Steven
Cotler and Jamie wheel Jamie wheel was a
guest on impact Theory it was amazing I
had such a good time with him and
reading this book I really liked it a
lot more than I thought it would and by
the way this is going to be the first
piece of content we ever do where I just
shamelessly um use notes this is a new
format that we're doing for the book
reviews uh and I think you're going to
like it a lot better uh so I'm basically
going to be free flowing going through
my notes uh but I will be looking at it
a lot which normally I pride myself on
not uh but to not have to memorize this
because we used to do them based on the
um I was just reading off a teleprompter
I'm not going to be doing that it's
going to be free flow but I am going to
hold notes so forgive me all right like
I was saying this book really surprised
me and I liked it a lot more um than I
thought I was going to because they
really go into the science and the one
thing that I feared in all of this that
the this notion that they call in the
book estasis which is going back to the
ancient Greek word for ecstasy which
means to literally Step Beyond or step
outside of oneself and the reason that
they went back to the ancient Greek word
is because ecstasy has been co-opted uh
by the drug scene and they really wanted
people to understand that it's a lot
more than that and so going into the
book I didn't know like how much is this
going to be about just psychedelics how
much of this is going to be about
accessing flow how much of this is going
to be about science and they really
really did an amazing job of making this
book incredibly interesting it really is
a page Turner I found myself just going
through it um because I was having a
great time originally I picked it up
because I knew that I needed to read it
uh for the interview that I was doing
with Jamie and in the end I just really
really got into the scientific approach
they took to this all right so just to
get into the book itself the book really
is about the revolution that's happening
right now um that is what they call
ecstatic Technologies and they break it
into three camps and the three camps of
e ecstatic Technologies are meditation
flow and psychedelics and I'll get into
each of them more a little bit later but
they wrap all of these three things into
what they call non-ordinary States Of
Consciousness and they said this really
is the way that we go beyond ourselves
and dissolve the ego and that notion of
dissolving the ego is something that is
really Central to the book and Jamie in
the interview that I did with him really
talked about you know no matter what
path you're using it's really people
trying to get to the same place and that
place can be seen on brain scans that
place can be really understood in terms
of what parts of the brain are turned on
and what parts of the brain are turned
off and I found that really really
intriguing this notion that simply by
knocking out areas of the brain and
that's the fascinating part like as you
go into what really takes people into a
state of flow it really is about turning
things off it's not so much about
turning things on and I found that
really really interesting and we'll get
into it later when they they talk about
one of the studies that was was done
where they take um Franciscan nuns and
um I think it was Buddhist monks I I
have notes on it but um and they put
them in an fmai machine while they're in
a deep state of meditation and the parts
of the brain that turn off are utterly
fascinating all right I won't go too
deeply into that now but know that
that's coming and you're going to have a
lot of fun uh okay so this notion of a
non-ordinary state of consciousness is
determined um or defined I should say by
what they call stir s t r and what that
stands for is
selflessness timelessness effortlessness
and richness and just to go through them
a little bit more in detail so
selflessness uh certain regions of the
brain that are responsible for the inner
critic uh what Jamie refers to is your
in inner Woody Allen that neurotic
that's constantly telling you that
you're not good enough you're not smart
enough you're not capable um all the
negative things that it says to keep you
safe and uh warm and cuddly in the
Embrace of the society or not being
eaten by the lion those areas of the
brain that are respons for that really
begin to shut down as you get into one
of these non-ordinary states of
Consciousness and so there is a real um
Freedom that comes with not having what
I'll call the internal Heckler uh so
that's nice uh timelessness our internal
chronometer is knocked out it's one of
the things that gets shut down and so
time can at times um seem to slow down
and at times really speed up and it's
our total inability to accurately
perceive time is one of the marks of
being in these non-ordinary states of
Consciousness the effortlessness is I
think pretty self-explanatory um you're
not having to push or grind or tap into
grit and discipline it really is a
moment where um everything just feels
right and that is one of the um the the
Hallmarks of this and then the last one
is richness and it's what um Jamie wheel
says is basically the whole kitten
Kaboodle this is the reason that people
are trying to get into um non-ordinary
States Of Consciousness the reason we're
trying to get into flow the reason
meditation is so powerful the reason
that psychedelics is really raising its
hand and saying that it may be a
shortcut um to these uh states of mind
is that um it's what Jimmy calls big
data for the mind which I found really
really interesting and um it the reason
that he calls it that and this is uh I
think I think I have a note on this
later where we go into a little bit more
detail but the notion is that the
subconscious is much faster and vaster
as Jamie wheel says in terms of its
ability to process data it can process a
lot more like if conscious High LEL
Consciousness and this is what they
refer to in the book is sort of the
highlevel um headlines of what's going
on in your life and usually the
conscious mind is the last to know so
it's highle highlights of what has
already happened uh and not even
necessarily what's happening right now
in real time the subconscious compared
to that is able to take in just a lot
lot more information it's able to
process it a lot faster and it's that's
what gives these experiences these the
the sense of richness where you just
almost can't can't believe that your
mind is bringing all of this experience
to life in such a vivid and um
enthralling way so an example that they
um I think they I'm almost certainly
they talk about in the book he
definitely has talked about it in a lot
of interviews is surfing and the way
that surfing or skiing or other extreme
sports really because of that dilation
of time and you're able to just see and
perceive all these things happening and
Michael Jordan used to talk a lot about
that you know in reference to being in
the zone he said things just slow down
and everything is moving in slow motion
for me and you know obviously with my
obsession with the Matrix I always think
of bullet time and how it's you're
really able to move just a little bit
faster than uh the world even as it's
whizzing by and so that richness is what
makes these states of Consciousness so
addictive is it it really is teleporting
you into another way to experience the
world around you uh that's hyper
sensitive that is um richer and more
beautiful and more amazing and you're
just able ble to experience more because
you're getting away from that inner
critic right the selflessness and you're
transcending really into the realm of
where you're sort of
experientially aware of um the
subconscious in a way that you're not
normally and they go into the science
and all that it's something that I think
man it was that's where the book really
like put its hooks into me was
explaining that and giving me words to
understand why those moments are so
profound and so interesting and they
give you the the science behind it and
it's just oh man it it really is uh
phenomenal and one of the things and
this also came out early in the book and
it really got me thinking about what's
going on here so they refer to these
non-ordinary states of Consciousness as
being the um uh it's a $4 trillion doll
economy altering your own brain
chemistry and jimie has this awesome
analogy he says we watch porn to get
high not to get laid and he said think
about it from an evolutionary
perspective you're if you win at
pornography like you're not passing on
your genes in any way shape or form so
from an evolutionary perspective it it
serves absolutely no purpose but the
chemical reward that is associated with
that um that experience you know you
literally go into a non-ordinary state
of consciousness uh selflessness
timelessness effortlessness richness
it's it is it is a rush
of neurochemistry I mean that's really
the name of the game so whether it's
cigarettes and illicit drugs or
pornography and extreme sports it's it's
taking over your brain chemistry it's
hijacking it and they go into not only
all the places that we're doing that not
only the science behind what's going on
but they talk about some of the most
interesting applications for this and
some of the companies and um
governmental agencies that really are
spending a lot a lot lot of money on
this and one of the organizations they
talk about are the Navy Seals and how
for them group flow is the most
interesting thing for Success which you
know for them success is really about
survival and uh they they have some
incredible stories about that and it's
almost worth reading the book just for
that uh and also talk about how in
Silicon Valley there's so much going on
uh especially in the realm of
psychedelics and how people are micro
doing and if you're not familiar with
micro doing micro doing is basically
taking a very low low amount of a
psychedelic so that you don't feel like
you're on drugs this is how it's been
explained to me you don't feel like
you're on drugs but you still get some
of the Creative Connections um and and
they give some examples in the book
about uh inventions and things that have
come out where the inventor
specifically credits U micro doing or
full-blown psychedelic experiences to
being able to make these just incredibly
interesting um leaps so really really
fascinating and just insane like how
much money we spend on the Altered
States uh economy as as uh Stephen
Cotler and jimy wheel call it um okay so
these guys are talking about ecstasis um
as that information technology as that
concept of Big Data um and really
looking at like where does this go in
the future and what are the ways that
we're going to be able to more easily
slide into this and and they make some
um or they go down some really
interesting paths and looking at
companies that are um doing some very
interesting things in the world of um
those Technologies and they detail them
in the book and and it was something I
took some notes on here in fact I'll
just read you guys exactly what I wrote
um I said okay they call it Big Data for
the mind the reason um they say that is
because being in an non-ordinary State
of Consciousness allows us to go beyond
our umelt and access more data via our
subconscious that's something that I'd
love to see proven true because if it
really allowed you to take in additional
data I'm going to start doing drugs
tomorrow actually this in my notes #
joke no joke uh so yeah it's since
reading this book I've become absolutely
obsessed everybody that I meet
especially from Silicon Valley um I'm
asking like if they micro do you'd be
surprised man the answer is yes a lot I
was uh I was not prepared for that uh
but really really interesting and maybe
one day I'll stop being a chicken and
actually give it a shot all right so
another thing they talk about in the
book is to really tap into creativity
you have to be able to hold two
competing ideas in your head this is
something I think about all the time and
I was really surprised to find it in the
book and they said it's the friction
between these ideas that creates the
creative Insight so to truly tap into
creativity you have to get beyond your
single-minded point of view and this is
something that um I think both Stephen
and Jamie um would say is very very
important because to to um do that in
some ways I won't speaking for myself I
won't say that it's the only way but
ecstasis facilitates that much easier
I've heard them talk really really
eloquently about this
and this concept of being able to take a
step up and go to a higher level to get
a new perspective it's what um I've
heard Jamie wheel refer to as the
cosmological perspective that you know
for um us to get Beyond ourselves we
have to think about us versus them and
for us to transcend um you know us we
have to go to like the state level and
then we have a a we at the state level
but then we you know get back into our
state versus their state so to to Really
transcend that and see things at a
global level and get Beyond left and
right and get Beyond global politics we
have to take this cosmological
perspective and their take on that is
that ecstasis is going to be one of the
things remember easis is defined as
stepping Beyond yourself literally um
and you can get to that three ways just
to recap from the book um is um flow
meditation and mystical States and um
psychedelics and that really
it becomes like a healing property and
oh God that makes it sound super woo woo
and the book is not like that at all but
that that was one of the more
interesting takeaways and I'm not a
woooo guy uh so when they were talking
about that I found that really really
fascinating just to ask like that no BS
level is that really something that
could help like would the world be a
better place if everyone were meditating
would the world be a better place if
people weren't as chicken as me and were
low do low dosing the uh or micro doing
the uh psychedelics so anyway they they
Don't Preach in the book but it asks
some pretty fascinating questions things
that I was not considering uh before I
read the book all right now we're at the
uh the monk thing all right so monks
who've been meditating for roughly 30
years are able to generate gamma waves
in their mind now this this my friends
is interesting if this is true monks
who've been meditating for around 30
years that's a long time to do anything
I will be the first to admit uh but
they're able to get the get their brain
into a a wave state so when I do it um
at least from my understanding I I've
not been in an fmri but I'll just say
anecdotally the way that it feels sounds
more like an alpha wave state which is a
much more creative state but isn't quite
that Eureka moment that aha moment which
is what uh people call the gamma wave
state so um and this is associated with
what they call binding where ideas come
together um and man like that to me is
really interesting and and if you can
get to that moment that place through a
non-ordinary state of consciousness
generated from getting really
really really good at meditating um
that's incredible and what they looked
at was that you can actually recreate
some of this through trans magnetic
excuse me trans cranial magnetic
stimulation um known as TMS uh and what
they did was um they tested people doing
this uh it's called like the nine DOT
test I think it's this test where they
make literally connect the dots it's
like you have to connect a certain
number of dots without lifting your
pencil and um most people can't do it it
but they found that through transcranial
magnetic simulation people could make
eight times they were eight times more
effective at solving this creativity
puzzle and what they were doing was they
were knocking out knocking out the
prefrontal cortex so the part that
handles higher level cognition is
actually choking creativity making it
harder for people to solve those
problems so the to get people to be more
creative to solve it to get them into
essentially a flow State they actually
have to knock out the prefrontal cortex
I found that interesting um and that's
been something that's floating around
about transcranial magnetic stimulation
for a long time that is and the same has
been found for the ability to draw and
then it's actually turning parts of the
brain off not on that's super super
interesting to me um they give several
other examples in the book about um
ecosis including additional creativity
and problem solving and more rapid
learning which I found really really
interesting um and the examples that
they give come from meditation induced
flow and um micro doing so um while I
think personally I found the most
intriguing and certainly tantalizing
parts of the book to be about the
Psychedelic experience I would say
that's really less than a third of the
book um and and they spend you know the
rest of the time just in the science of
it and how you know people go through
essentially different doors whether
you're going through the door of a
psychedelic or you're going through the
door of meditation or even near-death
experience with it which they talk about
talk about in the book um it's uh you're
getting to the same place so found that
very interesting all right they said
meditation surfing and psychedelics such
as MDM or I guess MDMA is not
necessarily a psych I actually don't
know um but drugs such as MDMA have all
proven clinically viable for treating
depression anxiety and PTSD uh which I
found super interesting and um basically
that that goes back to that door notion
that you're all of those things are
leading to a non-ordinary state of
consciousness um but the fact that MDMA
um has been shown to be so effective in
PTSD um they've had people make
longlasting changes with um MDMA a
single dose of MDMA and talk therapy
which um is just really really
intriguing and just tells me that we
don't know um everything about the brand
I mean that's I think patently obvious
but just how much we don't know um about
the brain is pretty interesting um and
then here here was a really interesting
thing about therapy and AI uh so people
are more than twice as likely to
disclose things to this AI therapist
named Ellie than they are to a real
therapist um and the the hypothesis goes
like this the Ellie is um isn't
judgmental basically and so people are
are way more willing to open up to her
and then the second part of the
hypothesis is that the reason that Ellie
is able to
um effectively connect with people if
that's the right word is because she's
taking in not just what you say but your
physical Behavior as well so she's
programmed to read let's see yeah 60
points of data at all times including
how willing you are to share personal
information I think that's crazy e that
AI is able to read that already that's
really really interesting um so taking
in these 60 points of data um to the
authors is basically correlated to that
notion of the um the subconscious being
vaster and faster and that it in some
ways mimics our ability because it's not
a real person because people know it's
AI it like mimics our own ability
through ecstasis to step outside of
ourselves and see ourselves without
judgment uh I think that's super super
interesting so and uh there hypothesis
basically because the ego is shut down
because that voice the Heckler as I
called it the um inner Woody Allen uh is
shut down
that that's how people are able to have
these breakthroughs because they're not
judging themselves as they're processing
through it and saying that basically
this AI therapist is able to have a very
similar effect on people because it
mimics that um that powerful effect of
ecosis so I I include that one um to
show you like how many interesting
places this book goes this book is full
of a lot of surprises as always I'm not
able to cover um everything oh man
there's just so many cool things and
literally as I'm scrolling through my
notes there's like stuff that I'm
skipping it's super interesting though
uh well worth read all right to keep
going the book goes deep into the
science um and they talk about reading
Biometrics um the military is doing a
lot of this and through Biometrics
they're able to predict with a high
degree of accuracy accuracy what groups
of people are going to be able to drop
into states of group flow months later
and who is not and basically they're
saying I if I remember right they're
actually talking about precognition at
this point in the book um as it related
to the movie Minority Report and saying
basically Minority Report predicted all
of this technology and I forget what
year the movie is set in but one of the
predictions that they actually
underprojected is precognition because
precognition is actually here because
Biometrics allows people so so
accurately to predict how people will do
um at the end of training so at the
beginning of training you basically look
at people's Biometrics and know who's
going to do well and who's not that's
crazy a little scary kind of amazing um
there was another researcher named
Newberg um I would spell it for you but
I listen to these books so even I don't
know how to spell it I'm guessing NE WB
RG um used spec Imaging to look at okay
this is The Franciscan nuns sync this
freaked me out so look at Franciscan and
Tibetan Buddhist that was the other
thing to study their minds during prayer
meditation in moments where they
reported a sense of Oneness with God and
what they found was that there was
significant deactivation in the right
perial lobe okay now why is that
interesting because that's the region of
the brain that's responsible for
navigating okay how weird is that the
reason that researchers believe this
plays a role in freeing you um or or
making you feel at one is because the
our ability to navigate is really
predicated on our ability to know where
our body ends and then the next thing
begins and that's why it gives this
heightened sense of being one with
things because because literally oh God
this is so interesting to me because
you're no longer able to Define where
your body ends and the next thing begins
because that part of your brain is
literally shutting
down just through that you sort of oh if
you'll let
me you forget you literally forget
because you don't have the incoming
stimulus you forget that you are
separate simply by forgetting your
physical
separateness you're able to and maybe
it's a grander truth or maybe it's just
a more interesting lie but you're able
to see yourself as connected to
everything else I literally that was one
of those parts of the book that gave me
chills and I yeah I took like scary
extensive notes on this part and uh
something that I this tied to me uh with
the work that VSS ramach chandron has
done and he said the only thing that
stops you from actually feeling somebody
else's pain so if I go and I pinch
someone you look at that and you think
Oho God that would hurt the only thing
that actually stops you from thinking
from actually feeling that pain is you
get a null signal from your own skin
saying empathize by all means but that
wasn't actually you if you you don't get
that null signal and they're they're
people that have damage to the brain and
so they're not getting the input and so
you actually can make them actually
experience the pain of another person
because they don't get that null signal
from their own body and so that sense of
the sense of self deteriorating because
the part of your brain responsible for
navigation and where you stop and the
next thing begins shuts down you no
longer get that null signal and you
actually feel at one with other people
dude that
that really goes to show like your world
is constructed your world is constructed
and it is constructed by your brain and
the second that those constructs begin
to fall apart you you perceive the world
totally differently so oh God I could go
off in this forever read the book they
go into such amazing detail on this you
guys are going to love it I'm going to
skip past some really cool stuff uh God
you guys are going to want to you guys
read the book uh super interesting all
right so I'll skip fast forward ton of
interesting stuff and then and uh we'll
get to this last
bit don't become a bliss junkie and if I
remember right the chapter of the book
because and I asked Jamie this when when
he came on the show why don't people do
drugs all the time right is that not the
obvious question like why don't people
do drugs all the time and if they help
you get into a non-ordinary state of
consciousness if they create the state
of flow and they shut down your inner
critic and it's all amazing
like why why even Jamie is going to
going to tell you and and I think he
thinks that it's pretty powerful um the
the possibilities of um like go back to
the example of of MDMA for treating PTSD
like it's super powerful and and he's
spoken very eloquently about that but
he's going to in fact you this is what
the authors say don't become a bliss
junkie um and so here's their logic for
why you have to be super careful with
flow and not just talking about
psychedelics by the way with Even Flow
so here's um what I wrote flow is like
being a colander this is their example
all right flow is like being uh a
colander if the rush of water is strong
enough for a moment you will experience
what it's like to be a cup whole and
full to the brim but if the flow of
water stops the water will leak out the
sense of flow that just moments before
made everything feel so effortless is
gone at that moment you have a choice to
make do the hard work of plugging your
holes or chase the next thing that drops
you into flow
I just got the chills rereading that and
that I mean that is almost a direct
quote from the book
and the the reason that
um this becomes dangerous is so take it
away from drugs for a second and just
think about something that people would
consider maybe less controversial
extreme sports not sure how much less
controversial but certainly um it's on
ESPN and taking psychedelics is not uh
so we'll call it less controversial for
now when people are constantly chasing
that flow that's how they get killed and
they give some amazing and heartbreaking
stories in the book about people that um
that they they felt so alive that they
couldn't see themselves giving up like
those the people that do the Wing suits
where you're flying I mean there's no
better word for it you are flying
without a parachute um and how routinely
they die and that they're chasing like
that feeling is just so magnificent for
them that they cannot stop themselves
all right and that um that was the end
so I'll just put that down that that in
essence answered my question and the the
book really
takes a
phenomenally objective view of
everything you read the whole book you
get a sense of the Dynamics of flow the
power of meditation
the potential for psychedelics but all
with a really objective evenhanded
retelling but man everything so first of
all Steven Cutler's other books are are
universally amazing and then this book
is is no exception so it's just well
written I think this is Jaime's first
book almost certain um and but knowing
jimie he's
an intellectual Powerhouse as is Stephen
you bring these two together and it's
just the the book was incredible and I
was excited to read the book but I was
blown away it really went farther than I
thought it would to helping me
understand um to know what to research
next like there's one company they
mentioned in the book I'm I'm forgetting
the exact name now but they're doing
some really interesting stuff with um
bio feedback and um scans and um uh
oh God those chambers that you go in uh
sensory deprivation Chambers like just
some really really interesting stuff and
the way that they're able to accelerate
learning just the book goes into so many
directions um all the while feeling like
one coherent um Narrative of just
driving forward to explain the the
Genome of flow that's it that's not
quite the right way to say it because it
limits it to flow but this really was
born out of um the two the the
co-authors um have the flow genome
project and this book is it feels like
the result of a very large amount of
research into how we get into these
optimal States Of Consciousness where we
feel our best and perform our best and
whatever words you want to put around
that I feel like they have um they've
really captured it in in a in a
beautiful way read the book guys um this
is one I definitely recommend it if you
have interest in these areas check it
out I don't H you just you won't be
disappointed it's really great so guys
thank you so much for joining me for
this exploration this um thrilling ride
through stealing Fire by Steven Cotler
and Jamie wheel uh you're going to love
it dive in if you haven't already be
sure to subscribe and until next time my
friends be light and Sher take care
peace out