Kind: captions
Language: en
Hitler invited three young tank generals
to his office and they had a plan which
was the plan to go through the Aden
mountains. That was the victorious idea.
So it's not the drugs actually that idea
to go through the Aden mountain. If you
if you think monocausal, you would say
that's the reason. That idea was genius.
And Hitler immediately understood it
because before the plan was to attack in
the north of Belgium, which is the same
as World War I, and it comes a stalemate
and they fight for months and no one
really moves and it's bloody and it's
nothing's happening. It's a bad. But
that was the only plan that they had.
That's why the high command said, "No,
we're not going to do it. It's stupid."
But these three tank generals they said
look if we go with the whole army
through the Aden mountains and like
Hitler this is not possible this is like
a mountain range how can the whole
German army fit through this eye of a
needle basically and they say no we can
do it because everyone misunderstands
what tanks can do. Tanks are not slow
machines in the back that wait for the
action to happen and then support this
somehow. We're going to use tanks in the
front as race cars. Basically, we're
going to over power the enemy. We're
going to be in France before they know
it. We are already behind them. But it
would only work if you would reach
Sedon, the border city of France within
3 days and three nights. And that was
only possible if you don't stop.
Suddenly, Ranka realized that his moment
had come because he had the recipe how
people could stay awake for 3 days and
three nights. Before that he was kind of
an outsider like the freak with the drug
idea. Suddenly he became like okay tell
us how does it work and he gave like
lectures in front of the officers and he
wrote a stimulant decree where like a
whole army is prescribed a drug this
case methamphetamine how much should be
taken at what intervals. This became a
very big thing and then Tla had to
deliver 35 million dosages to the front
lines and then on May 10th they took
their methamphetamine and they started
the surprise attack through the Aden
mountains.
The following is a conversation with
Norman Oler, author of Blitzed, Drugs in
the Third Reich, a book that
investigates what role psychoactive
drugs, particularly stimulants such as
methamphetamine, played in the military
history of World War II. It is a book
that two legendary historians, Ian
Kershaw and Anthony Beaver, give very
high praise to. Ian Kershaw describes it
as very wellressearched serious piece of
scholarship and Anthony Beaver describes
it as remarkable work of research and it
is indeed a remarkable work of research.
Norman went deep into the archives using
primary sources to uncover a perspective
on Hitler and the Third Reich that is
before this but mostly ignored by
historians.
He also wrote Tripped: Nazi Germany, the
CIA, and The Dawn of the Psychedelic
Age. And he's now working on a new book
with the possible title of Stoned
Sapiens. Great title. Looking at the
history of human civilization through
the lens of drugs.
This is the Lex Freedman podcast. To
support it, please check out our
sponsors in the description and consider
subscribing to this channel. And now,
dear friends, here's Norman Oler.
Tell me the origin story of meth
methamphetamine and pervertin brand name
drug version in the context of Nazi
Germany in the late 1930s. Let's start
there.
>> I think you're right to ask about the
context because without the context,
it's not really understandable. So, what
was the situation?
In the 20s, the Nazi movement basically
started and it started in Bavarian beer
halls. So alcohol was the drug of choice
of the early Nazi movement. The only guy
that didn't drink was Hitler. He was a
tea totler I guess you say. So um that
was happening in Munich. So alcohol and
national socialism are very closely
connected. At the same time in the 20s
in Berlin there was a completely
different thing going on. People were
taking all kinds of drugs. This had to
do actually with the defeat of Germany
in the first world war. I mean the
context is a big context. The Versailles
treaty had the effect that the German
economy
was not really able to recover after the
end of World War I. The Versail treaty
was written basically by the Western
victorious powers. Germany had no say in
the negotiations
and um I'm certainly not a German
nationalist, not even a German patriot,
but even I would say that the Versail
treaty treated Germany somewhat unfair.
I mean it laid all the blame on Germany.
And I mean a war is a very complex thing
and the first world war
to examine how it actually started is a
very complex you know story and there's
many factors to it. But the Versail
treat just said it was Germany's fault
and then Germany had to do all these
payments to the allies. It couldn't
create a new economy. It couldn't have a
new army. So it was the economy really
went down. Everything in Berlin was
cheap and the people were using also
substances that were very cheap in huge
quantities. So while in Bavaria they
were drinking alcohol and alcohol in the
brain
uh stimulates behavior a a group
behavior us against them. You can
actually examine this as a
neuroscientist would know exactly how
this works. uh while in Berlin the drugs
that were used were morpheium, there was
cocaine, there was masculine, there was
ether. So people were experimenting.
Everyone developed a different mindset.
It was all, you know, you didn't behave
in a way that some kind of authority
would like you to behave in because the
authority had just lost the first world
war and there was no no real authority
in Berlin. people were doing whatever
they wanted to do and they were
intoxicating themselves in the way they
wanted to do it. So the population in a
way if you just look at Munich and
Berlin was growing apart like there were
the alcohol people in Munich the Nazis
then there were these weird diverse
LGBTQ
whatever scene in Berlin like actresses
sniffing Ether in the morning and then
making crazy moves. Could you speak to
the nature, the motivation of the drug
use in in uh Berlin at the time? Was a
rebellion? Was it a way to deal with the
a difficult economic depression? Was it
just the natural thing that young people
do to explore themselves, to understand
the world, to develop their culture?
Like what what do we understand about
drug use there?
>> All of these factors come together. But
it was the first time in modern history
in Germany at least that there was no
emperor. Like before that Kaiser Wilhelm
everything was very strict you know you
had to you couldn't you couldn't go
crazy you know as a young person you
couldn't be a young person but now in
the Vimma Republic in the 20s you could
no one stopped you so people went crazy
like that's what made Berlin into the
city that it still somehow is and maybe
later we talk about contemporary Berlin.
It kind of it it's it still has that
vibe, you know, that's why people still
come to Berlin. Drugs are cheap. You can
move however you want. There's no
authority. So that created a rift
between the Nazis in Munich. And they
always hated Berlin and what was going
on in Berlin. So for example, Gerbles,
the later propaganda minister, he called
the situation in Berlin the Fasta as
reality, the hated asphalt reality of
Berlin. He hated that. And when the
Nazis then were able to take power in
1933, one of the first things they did
was to really prosecute people who were
taking drugs because they wanted to, you
know, bring everyone back into the fold.
And I think that's you asked what was
the reason for people taking so many
drugs. They were accessible. They were
cheap.
But I think the most important thing is
that they they let you find yourself
maybe or lose yourself, you know, also
possible, you know.
>> Can we also take a tangent there because
you uh have a connection to this place
Berlin and this part of the world. Can
you just briefly speak to that so we can
contextualize even deeper the personal
aspect of this because you understand
the music of the people, the land, its
history. There's there's something you
can only really understand if you've
been there and you have taken it in and
we'll return to this topic in in
multiple contexts but in in this
particular way as a as one human being
who writes about this place. What's your
own story?
>> I grew up in West Germany and this was
during the cold war um and
Berlin the walled in city was always
like a big fascination cuz there was a
wall. There was actually a wall in the
city preventing people to move into
another part. And I was from the west,
fortunate enough to be from the free
west. So I could travel to Berlin and I
could leave. I could look at it. And I
always loved Berlin. I thought it was a
very viby place. And then when the wall
came down, I was still in school, but I
like immediately got into the car of my
parents and drove there. I wanted to see
how it came down. And then Berlin really
in the '9s became a place that was very
attractive to me and I moved there then
in the '9s. I was first living in New
York. I wrote my first novel in New York
and I loved New York before Giuliani
became mayor. It was he ruined the city.
>> Before that it was not gentrified. Let's
say he introduced gentrification and
gentrification is a big topic. be I I
still lived in the ungentrified New York
City for like 300 bucks a month rent and
everyone I knew was an artist.
>> You loved the diversity of it?
>> Yeah, I loved it. I wrote my first novel
there. I I took LSD for the first time
in downtown Manhattan on a Saturday
night.
>> So, you're kind of like a like a German
Carowak type character, but moved a few
decades forward.
>> I wouldn't compare myself to another
writer, but I think Carrick is pretty
cool, but he's he's an empetamine
writer. on the road was apparently
written in two weeks on empmphetamines
and but it's good you know
empmphetamines are not bad per se we can
also talk about this so-called bad drugs
you know because basically they're
neutral but let's not lose the thread
>> yes
>> even though New York
>> oh yeah and then I was in New York I was
in a health food store one of the first
like there weren't health food stores
back then a lot but there was one on
first avenue and suddenly there was an
announcement which was unusual in the
health food store I think it was called
prana on a Pana Foods and the
announcement was that Kurt Cobain had
just shot himself. It was like and I had
been actually and still am a Navana fan.
I' I've seen one of the last concerts of
Nirvana in New York City and it was
amazing. But he killed himself and like
the next day I received a music cassette
from a friend of mine from Berlin with
electronic music and I realized that
there had been a paradigm shift.
Obviously rock music with the hero on
stage was dead. No, it was, you know,
dance electronic music, which a lot of
people today think it's kind of
simplistic
music form, but it's actually a very
highly intelligent music form. At least
it was in the '9s. People were really
experimenting with that music. That was
the new music. That was actually the
reason I moved to Berlin. I really I
decided I leave New York City. I'm going
to move to Berlin. And then in Berlin,
to answer your question,
I fell in love with something that
probably reminded me of the 20s, even
though I wasn't there in the 20s, but
there really the city was very open. The
wall had just was still, you know, I
mean, it's a few years later, but still
the wall, it felt like it just came
down. There was Germany was uh Berlin
was not yet the capital of Germany. That
was still in Bon. So Berlin was a very
cheap and cultural and crazy city
probably a bit like in the 20s actually
and um that's how I fell in love with it
and that's how I became interested in
this electronic scene. Uh I mean I I
visited many dance venues then called
so-called clubs.
>> That's one of the hubs in the world of
electronic music.
>> They claim that techno was kind of
invented in Berlin but it was also comes
from Detroit. So Detroit and Berlin are
like the techno hubs I would say.
>> Yeah. Electronic music is a soundtrack
for some of the most interesting
experience this earth has ever created,
right? Just it gets people together in
some interesting ways. So it's not just
the music itself, it's the experiences
that the music enables. Well, in
Germany, we had a situation that the
wall actually kept people apart. People
didn't know each other. But because the
wall came down, people suddenly met in
abandoned buildings in the center of
Berlin which had been owned by the
socialist state of East Germany. The
most famous club Tour means like vault.
It was the big vault with the big door.
So that's where Trezor was the club.
It's so funny that the echo 100 years
later, Berlin had all these uh left
parters, young people using drugs and
then Munich with a beer and then that's
where Hitler came out. So, is that what
we're supposed to imagine in the early
days of the Nazi party when Hitler's
giving the speeches to to just a handful
of folks, they're all drunk?
>> Well, it is it is a fact that um the
movement came out of the burger boy
kella. It's a certain restaurant pub in
Munich and that was not only a beer hall
that was also a political venue and it
was a right-wing venue. It was for
rightwing populist people like
communists wouldn't use it even though
communists are in many ways quite
similar to the right-wing
especially back then but it was used by
right-wingers and Hitler didn't mind
because people who are drunk are more
susceptible to right-wing populism I
would claim now here and Hitler would
agree so he he he did not think it was
bad that these people were a bit drunk
or maybe even very drunk because if
you're drunk you also get aggressive
against others like it's he could play
with that, you know.
>> So drunk, aggressive towards others, but
drunk in a group,
>> it constitutes the group also. If
everyone is on the same alcohol level,
you you just go to October Fest in
Munich,
>> which is not a political thing, but
everyone, you know, you can kind of
sense how it originated. And actually,
the first time the Nazis tried to grab
power was the so-called beer hall put. I
mean, that's a historical event took
place in 1923. And it was after a drunk
night where they suddenly decided now
we're gonna do it. So they came out of
the burger boy kella and they were all
drunk except of Hitler and they just
tried to overtake the Munich government
and they miserably failed because it was
just a stupid drunk idea like they were
like yeah let's just do it. And the
Bavaria police quite sober that day they
just you know shot him to the ground.
Hitler was almost killed like he just
jumped
behind his bodyguard uh Guring during
the behold push was uh wounded in his
stomach with a I think a gunshot that's
why he became a morphine addict so this
behold push in 23 had and severe effects
also they were sentenced to prison and
Hitler wrote mine come in prison all of
these little events come together it's
so interesting that for them it was just
life but now we look back these critical
moments in history that turned the tides
of human civilization. Right? So Hitler
could have died there and these
characters occurring that became larger
than life
>> that influenced the the lives and the
deaths and the suffering of millions.
All first of all could have been stopped
then and whatever that means when you
look back at history. But all all of
those are just human beings developing
their ideas, growing, developing groups,
developing ideologies, and using drugs
or drinking.
>> I mean, that's why I thought it's
interesting, for example, to examine
Hitler's drug use.
>> When I announced that to a historian
while I was doing research, he helped me
a lot with methamphetamine and the army,
proper medicine historian from the
University of Ulm. And then I said, "No,
I'm interested in Hitler." And he said,
"No, don't. This is not interesting.
This is not serious
his this is not serious history but it's
you know even Hitler was a person you
know and if you understand for example
the substance abuse of a person of
course you understand more about that
person and historians never had had that
idea before Kershaw for example who is
really a great he's very knowledgeable
about national socialism like many
British historians they always know more
about German history than the German
historians but Kersha really does. I
think he's he's really good. But in his
biography of Hitler, he just writes one
sentence like,
"And then he had a crazy doctor called
Morel who gave him dubious medications
and drugs and he stops there and then he
goes on to describe whatever." Yeah, we
should say that Ian Kershaw is widely
considered to be probably one of the
greatest biographers of Hitler. I think
he he wrote the best biography of
Hitler,
>> which is so it's so important. Your work
is really important because it opens a
whole new perspective on the lives of
the individuals and the machinery of the
Nazi military that historians haven't
looked at. It's so interesting that you
can unlock those perspectives. And
that's that's the underlying really the
foundation of our conversation today and
of your work is there's layers to this
thing. You can look at the the the
tactics of war, this strategic level of
war, the operational level of war. You
can look at the human suffering of war,
uh the love stories. is you could look
at the hate, the psychology of
propaganda or you could look at the
individual things substances consumed by
the individuals that make up the Nazi
party leadership and the soldiers and
all those are critically important to
understand the war. Right? And this
piece of drug use and supplement use
have been ignored by historians.
That was very surprising to me. You
know, I didn't know this myself. I never
planned to write this book. Uh it's b it
kind of happened to me and um
I decided to team up with the leading
German historian on national socialism
Hans Mumzen
uh who has passed away by now. Uh he was
quite old but quite ready to be my
mentor for this book Blitz.
and he
was
maybe even shocked when I came back from
the military archive of Germany with
like a like a lot of copies all relating
to the systematical drug use of the
German army including
an experiment done by the Navy who had
always pretended to be the clean German
we say vafangat weapon.
Like you have the army, you have the air
force, you have the navy, you have and
the in Germany they had the SS and the
navy always pretended to be like we
weren't really Nazis. We were like, you
know, the German Navy. We had we had our
ethics code. But I found in the archive
that the Navy did human experiments in
the concentration camp of Saxonhausen
trying to to find a new wonder drug
because they had new what they called
wonder weapons or what Hitler called
wonder weapons. He always talked about
these wonder weapons. Wonder weapons
were basically mini submarines. One or
two people going in staying underwater
for up to a week and torpedoing, you
know, Allied ships. So the Navy was
trying to do to develop a drug that
would keep you awake and combat ready
for seven days and seven nights without
sleep and without you know burning out.
Very difficult to find. So they hired um
a penalty unit in the concentration
camp. They hired the SS had the
so-called shoe walking unit. It was a
penalty unit in the concentration camp
testing shoe souls for the German shoe
industry, walking for like days and then
they would measure like how the souls,
you know, kept up in the stress and they
had different uh uh layers in the
concentration camp like all the all the
the surfaces that German soldiers would
touch when they conquer Europe. So this
is a very elaborate thing you know and
if you go to the concentration camp
today it's a museum you can still see
that running track of the shoe runners
unit. So the Navy hired the shoe runners
unit from the SS paid them money and
then gave them drugs different kinds of
drug combinations methamphetamine
combined with cocaine and in a chewing
gum and like all kinds of things. So
this is a this is a big thing you know
and there's documents to it and mumsen
who knew everything about national
socialism the old you know authority I'm
like the young like I didn't study
history I just you know I just try to
make sense you know but I present him
all these uh documents he's reading like
from this pill patrol and he said wow
like he said we historians we never do
drugs we don't understand drugs this we
missed this you know so he was very
clear that we missed this and he said
this is actually the missing link that
historians did not have especially to
explain Hitler's
degeneration as a leader like he he he
made very good decisions good in meaning
militarily effective decisions in the
beginning of the war and very bad
decisions for the German war effort
towards the end and you you can you can
link that to drugs you
explain a lot of Hitler through the
drugs. But you can also look at this
point that historians so far had not
been able to figure out basically what
happened to Hitler. Why did he get crazy
and I mean he was crazy or he was but
why did he get so bad as a leader cuz he
was very effective for a long time and
then there's this moment where it where
it turns.
>> Yeah. The the generation of decision
making,
psychology, behavior, all of that. you
you cannot understand that fully without
understanding his drug use. And we
should also say that some of the
historians you mentioned, Ian Kershaw
and uh Anthony Beaver, these legends of
history, they all gave you compliments.
So uh Kershaw said that your work is
very good, extremely interesting and a
serious piece of wellressearched
history. Anthony Beaver said that it's a
remarkable work of research. So props to
them. You have received a bunch of
criticism from historians, but you've
also received
obviously a lot of props. I mean,
Kershas,
the legendary historian of Hitler
complimenting how deep your work is.
That's
that must feel good. Uh maybe maybe this
is a good moment to also just since
we're talking about historians to
address some of the criticism. Uh so
Richard Evans was been also a great
historian
has been one of the bigger critics. He
said that your work is crass and
dangerously inaccurate account and is
morally and politically dangerous.
I think that's grounded in the idea that
if you say that well all the Nazi forces
and Hitler was on drugs so therefore
their evil can be they're not really
evil. It's just accountability can be
removed because they were using drugs,
>> right?
>> And also another criticism of his which
I also understand and probably can steal
man is if you look too much through this
singular lens of drugs,
uh you can overemphasize it. You know,
you can overemphasize how important it
was as an explainer of the effectiveness
of Blitz Creek, for example.
Because it's there's there is some I
mean I should say there is something
really compelling about a singular
theory that explains everything and you
can fall in love with it too much as an
explainer. So can can you steal man his
criticism or criticism you received and
also argue against it? I think he's
absolutely right that you shouldn't
argue in a monocausal way and this is
actually what moms also said to me
because of course I was enthusiastic
about all my drug findings and he said
don't argue in a monocausal way
especially the war
>> there's a lot of variables a lot of
factors a lot of things going on yes
>> so that sentence of his don't argue in a
monocausal way that always stayed with
me um and I think that
um I didn't deviate from that path
actually, but it was still interesting
that Evans
thought that I put too much emphasis on
the drugs. It's I think it's it's a it's
a totally fine, you know, opinion. I I
would disagree otherwise I wouldn't have
written the book. Uh what is what I can
state here is that I invented nothing.
In all of my three non-fiction books,
nothing is invented. If you are a good
writer and I trained as a novelist for
me it was also very unusual to write a
non-fiction book. I wanted to write a
novel about Nazis and drugs. My
publisher said no this is he looked at
the you know at the the facts you know
he said someone has to write the facts.
So I said but the non-fiction books are
boring. He said not necessarily maybe
you can find a way to write it with your
novelistic style but
based
100% on the facts. And that is like in
German we say, how do you say that?
Split. Like when you do with your legs
like
>> it's hard, you know.
>> Yeah.
>> Because with a very fluent sophisticated
language, you can easily overpower the
reader. If I describe how the German
guys, 19-year-old guys took the math and
went into the tank and the math started
kicking in, five guys on math after like
one hour of ride into France,
you can write that in a powerful way
that if you are the reader, you would
think, yeah, I mean the Blitzkrieg
without math is unthinkable. There is a
bit of a man, I wish I found that kind
of feeling for historians, right? Like
how did I miss this p piece? So some
historians like great historians like uh
Kershaw obviously see they kind of give
you a
like a slow clap applaud and some
historians are a little bit skeptical
like this is a little too good. So
totally understandable and um also they
have a different
techniques to write text like this. I
used a totally different technique
um
and I have an apparatus. So it really
feels like it could be acade an academic
work but still it's written in a way
that uh it kind of overpowers it's it it
kind of colonializes the story in a
weird way. I never thought about it
about it like that but while I was
writing it I was just trying to write it
as well as I could. I didn't think about
these questions we're talking about now.
>> Um I just
>> I got carried away obviously but I never
left the area of facts.
>> Yes. So, we should talk about your
process. That's also super fascinating.
You went to the archives. You went to
the sources. What's what's that take?
What what does it feel? What does it
smell like? What does it look like? What
does it what does it entail? Uh how much
text is there? What language is it in?
What what's the process there? I never
thought of going to the archives. And my
girlfriend at the time, she said, "You
have to go to the archives." And she's
an academic, so she and I I was like,
"Yeah, okay. I'll go. I'm fine. I'm I'll
check it out." And then when I
met a a historian, he claims that
without methamphetamine, there would be
no Blitzkrie victory of Germany. Like
he's monocausal.
>> Mhm.
>> But he was also extremely helpful to me
and he's an academic. Uh he he he he
gave me the signatures. It's called in
German where you find stuff in the
archives. signature is like then it's
like H2538
something like this and these were the
files of professor Ranka and Professor
Ranka was
he was the head of the institute for for
um army physiology his job was to
improve the the performance of the
soldier
>> and all of his stuff was
filed in a certain place in the milit
military archives which in Germany is in
Fryborg in the south in a small town not
in Berlin because Germany is a bit of a
decentralized country. We don't want to
put everything into Berlin again like
the Nazis did. We try to avoid our
mistakes. So the military archive is in
Frybook and I went there and because I
was I had this signature immediately I
got you know original documents that
were all relating to my research like I
could read the I had the original what
does it look like? These are sheets of
paper.
>> Yeah. It's like
>> like So it's not scanned. It's
>> Well, it's different things. Like the
guy who did the math into the into the
army, the professor,
>> he was uh writing a war diary. That's
what the name was. War Diary. So every
day he would write it by hand. So this
war diary was given to me.
>> So you're reading that. So it's like
dated like you have a date. The diary.
It was a bit funny with him because
he took a lot of meth himself because he
thought it was great. He just thought it
increases your performance. Um, by now
we know a little bit more that
methamphetamine is not so healthy
because you get used to it and you burn
out. You get depressed and then you have
to take more big problem. and he became
depressed and burned out and he didn't
realize it's because of the meth that he
he's like describing to the whole German
army like he was he he made a convincing
case and I can explain that in detail
how that actually happened. Uh but just
to have his war diary was great and then
also like he would write he would type
letters writing to the uh company of Tla
how fast they could produce stuff in
which time. So you have you have all
these original documents. You have like
500 documents and it goes like he writes
like reports what happened in this
battle on methamphetamine. Like there's
a lot of stuff you've can find in the
archives if you find them. But the
tricky thing is that you can only look
you could you kind of look at a
so-called find book. In the find book
you cannot type in drugs. It wouldn't
find anything because at the time when
they were taking all the notes from this
doctor, his war d everything, they
didn't put the label drugs there. They
put the label, his name, his position,
World War II, French campaign, stuff
like that. So, because at the time they
didn't know that I would at one point
come and look for drugs in that, you
know, but he was the drug guy, but also
they didn't realize he was the drug guy,
you know, no one realized that he was
the drug guy. So it's not easy to find
stuff in the archives. So the archives
you go it's a it's a cuff guys
experience. You go into this building
and you have to understand the rules and
you will never fully understand what's
going on. Also the archist they don't
really know what's going on cuz there's
so many documents no one's read them
all. You know no one knows like there's
history kind of lying there somehow
organized somehow stored. I mean it does
sound like a very Kafka-esque it's thing
>> but it's great if you find something but
you can also sit there for a week and
not find anything.
>> So what was the process for you? You're
just reading open-minded
seeing trying to see is there some truth
here to be discovered.
Well, I have a friend. He's a DJ and we
talked about Berlin. We probably talk
about it more. Uh,
and he takes a lot of drugs.
And he knows his, let's put it that way,
he knows his drugs. Um, and one day he
said to me when I was trying to uh
figure out what I would write about
next, he said, "The Nazis took a lot of
drugs. You should write about that." And
I said, "The Nazis didn't take drugs."
Because you know when you grow up in
Germany you get
educated about the Nazis quite intensely
especially in West Germany like they
teach you everything but they don't
teach you drugs. I mean now they do
maybe you know but it was not known. So
and and the Nazis always had this um
this aura of being law and order. No
drugs of course no chaos everything. My
grandfather he was a Nazi always said
well at least there was discipline in
the country. There was law and order. So
this this doesn't match with drugs, you
know.
>> You know, I should also say I think
that's the experience for a lot of
people before reading your book.
Uh you know, I had the same kind of
feeling that the Nazi ideology was all
about like law and order and purity and
surely they would not be doing drugs. So
this was like this really blew my mind.
And I think I was I wasn't quite ready
similar to like Richard Evans like this
is a big like okay a narrative
transforming into a deeper more
complicated understanding what Nazi
forces and uh the Hitler in the circle
actually look like. That's why I didn't
believe Alex. Always take the DJ the
drug expert with a grain of salt.
>> I didn't believe him. But I I said it's
a great topic. Maybe I could invent it.
He said no we don't invent this. This is
real. I said, "How do you know?" And he
said, "Um, I have a friend and I know
this guy by now. I met him. He's an
antique dealer in Berlin and he had
bought an old medicine chest in an old
Berlin apartment. This was in 2010. And
he found pevitine tablets inside which
were the methamphetamine product that
was marketed in Germany in the late30s.
And this guy, the antique dealer, took
some tablets and they were quite old,
you know, 70 years old, but they still
had an effect on him. And I later asked
him and he he said, "Well, we took them
for about a month. It was the greatest
month we ever had. Like we had so much
fun. We were so productive." Because
that methamphetamine back then was also
>> like a quality product. It was not
crystal meth made in a in a trailer lab.
>> So this is many decades later. They were
still potent.
>> They were still potent.
>> Especially Alex convinced me because
Alex has a high tolerance. And he said,
"Okay." They still had some. So I said
to him, "Can I have some also?" And I
took one. And he's like, and this was,
we were standing in my writing tower,
which is at the river in Berlin. And he
was like, "I took one
and I could feel something." Then I took
another one and then it's, you know, I
could feel more and then I took a third
one. like typical Alex he would like
take three you know instead of just
taking one he's take he took three
metame tablets from the 40s and he said
>> and then I felt like and he looked at
the river and there was a big like big
ship like a cargo ship going by and he
said I felt like this ship suddenly
there was a shoop he said in German like
a a motion that was like energy that was
grabbing me and I could like I felt so
powerful and he told me this and I was
like wow this is like and I googled like
math methamphetamine Nazi Germany. This
was in 2010. And there was this one
professor uh at the university in Ulm
who said the blitzk was only possible
because of methamphetamine. So I called
up this guy and he said, "Sure, I'll
meet you." And then I he gave me the
signature for the archive. Then I went
to the archive and then I really started
to do my own research. And then I went
to different archives and I tried to
find everything on Nazis and drugs and
that came everything is in the book. So
that crazy meeting with Alex in my
writing tower, that kind of got me on
this research journey.
>> It makes me wonder what other mysteries
like that are in the archives. Do you
think there's stuff like that in there
that we deeply don't understand?
Uh about, for example, there's there's a
bunch of mysteries that we think we
understand.
Uh maybe about the concentration camps,
maybe about the Eastern Front. the
interplay between Stalin and Hitler,
>> maybe maybe a Bob Britain that could be
discovered in the letters in the data
that were completely missing.
>> I think so. And I think that also there
are archives that are not open.
um let's say the Vatican archive
>> some secret archives that some very
powerful structures have structures that
we might not even know you know now off
the top of our head which still have a
huge influence so I think that the human
history is quite different from
what
most historians write I think that's uh
that's just one version I think there's
several versions
And I think that it goes much deeper and
is much more interesting. And so I guess
like this history is a very active thing
which I also didn't know you know I was
writing historical
non-fiction book and I suddenly realized
that this is like a shark pool like
because the history
defines the future or is very connected.
Our history teacher always said if we
don't know where we come from we cannot
know where we go. And that is that is I
think true. That is what I now really am
interested in for my next book. I'm
trying to really understand human
history. And obviously I'm not the
first. There's a few, you know,
alternative historians that go like
because you have to go back in time
quite a bit. And then it's it's not easy
to to write about it. But it's very
interesting to think about it. And I
would love to find like the truth on
Atlantis, which I don't believe in
actually. And we can also talk about
that. But maybe there's an archive where
we can actually see that they had this
king ruling. I don't think this could be
found. But um I I think we we can still
also find a lot of documents, but I
think especially in in closed archives,
so we won't find them.
>> You said a lot of really interesting
things.
It's so important to have people like
you that do the daring work of going
into the archives of the sources, the
evidence, and trying to find a a thing
that completely transforms a history as
we thought we understood it. That's
revisionist history at its best.
Uh there's revisionist history has a
sort of negative connotation
sometimes because you go to
conspiratorial land without much
evidence and you're just being a rebel
for rebel's sake.
>> But when you grounded in data and and
dare to challenge the historical
narrative, that's really powerful. So
now I should also mention that we've
been just setting the laying out the
context.
>> Yeah, we're still in the context phase.
>> Context phase. uh and for the next 10
hours and maybe for the rest of our
lives we will be continuing just setting
the context but let us dare return to
the original question of um Pervertton
how did that come about taking the 1930s
Nazi Germany
>> the Munich and the and the Berlin
tension that we all laid out beautifully
uh how did Pervertton come into the
picture? Well, the Nazis managed to grab
power on January 30th, 1933,
and they immediately become an anti-drug
regime. That is important to them
because the only intoxication they allow
from now on in Germany is the Nazi
intoxication, is the ideological
intoxication.
So they quickly install concentration
camps which were at the time run by the
SR not the SS takes over later and turns
the concentration camps into an
industry. Uh the first SR concentration
camps were in cells in Berlin or in the
countryside
and um some of the first people that
landed in these cellers and were
disciplined were drug users. also
anti-semitic policies which were
um very important from the day one for
the Nazis like they anti-semitism is the
is the defining pillar of national
socialism
um the core of it really um they quickly
connected anti-drug policies with
anti-semitic policies they claimed the
Jews in Germany the German Jews were
taking more drugs than the non the
non-Jewish Germans and um National
Socialism's
goal was to purify the German body. So
they saw the whole folk the the c the
folk folk the country the people as a
body one body and that has to be
purified. So all Jews are poison but not
only Jews. Everyone who thinks
differently, communists are also poison.
Jews are the worst poison. But you know
a lot of you know Yeah. And then you
create this clean body. And obviously
drugs play have no position in that. If
you're addicted to drugs that's weak.
You know you're morphinist. You you use
cocaine. That's all degenerate. That's
Jewish. That's Jewish doctors are all
morphinists you know. Um so that Nazi
Germany and Hitler was the shining
example of the person who doesn't take
drugs. He was he didn't have a private
life. He didn't even have he didn't even
have a body. He just
led the the the folk's body, you know.
So Hitler was on not putting any poisons
into him. He stopped smoking cigarettes
uh in the 20s already. He never touched
alcohol.
vegetarian.
>> Vegetarian.
No caffeine even.
So he was that's what he was in the
beginning. Story of course changes at a
certain point in time but he started as
this.
>> As far as you understand that's true.
>> Yeah. I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure
that this is true. Also vegetarianism
was a right-wing thing in Germany. It
was an elitist thing. If you were
vegetarian, you had a higher frequency
which kind of gave you
uh a superiority over let's say like
these workers who need like to eat the
sausage so he can you know do the work
like Vagna the composer he was a
vegetarian. Hitler was impressed by
Vagna. Um so vegetarianism all I think
that's all true. So I think Hitler was
like that and um
and it's hard to be like that actually
and I think that gave him
an attraction inside the movement which
were all like drunk you know drunkers
and using morphine all the time because
he of his pain he got used to morphine.
So they were it was not the movement
wasn't like this but he was like this.
So he was um
he symbolized but he symbolized that
whole approach of cleanliness like
purity.
So then how does methamphetamine come
into the picture? It's totally absurd.
That's why I thought it was fun
researching this because it's doesn't
make sense, you know. Um
and you know they use this simple trick
by you know defining what is a drug an
illegal drug and what is not because
drugs don't have it written on them.
This is an illegal dangerous drug. You
know drugs are basically neutral. These
are these are molecules you know. So the
meth methamphetamine molecule was found
in a Berlin based company called the Tla
company.
Um and the head of TLA he was very upset
with the Olympics in 1936 because an
afroamerican athlete Jesse Owens
was running faster than German
superheroes with the best jeans. You
know how could how can this be? So they
thought that he was on something cuz he
won, I think, five gold medals. It was
ridiculous, you know. This was supposed
to be Germany's games, you know. And
then the afroamerican runs better than
the than the Aryan Uber mench. So the
only explanation is he took a drug. He
took probably
benzadrine,
which was a legal empetamine.
And also there were no doping checks at
the Olympics.
And if you take an amphetamine, of
course, you can run a bit faster. Maybe
that, you know, when it kicks in. Uh
that this has to do with the immense
release of um of dopamine in the brain.
Um
but it was never proven that Owens used
any type of drugs. But the head of the
Templar company, he said, "We have to
prevent this. We have to invent a better
amphetamine. uh we have to we have to
make a German amphetamine that is
stronger than the American benzadrine.
So his main chemist, Hshield, Fritz
Hshield, he did research and he found
that in 1917 in Tokyo a Japanese chemist
had made methamphetamine and he remade
that methamphetamine and they tested it
among themselves, the chemists in the
Berlin pharmaceutical lab and they loved
it like they made pure methamphetamine
and you know they had a really good time
and they were like more active they were
talkative because that's what happens on
methamphetamine. So the company really
thought this is a great product and they
turned it into a product. They went to
the patent bureaucracy and got the
patent for methamphetamine and then it
quite quickly came onto the market. It
was labeled as pavitine
which is kind of a great name because it
has like the perverse already in it and
this pavein perverden uh was available
in any pharmacy. So you just you didn't
need a prescription. a child could go
and buy 10 packs of pure
methamphetamine. So methamphetamine was
also very cheap. So it became quite
popular because people you know talked
about it.
>> Did they understand the the side effects
and negative effects of methamphetamine?
Did they care?
>> They didn't really know what it was. I
mean I also read I went to the archive
of that company also of course so they
were like what is it good for? like I
just feel great when I take it and I
have more energy and they didn't know if
that could be a product like they it was
1937 38 when they were discovering it
>> but also did they how did they think
about the fact that this is a drug
>> well it it was they called it a
performance enhancer got it
>> is drinking a coffee in the morning a
drug I mean it is a drug but we don't
think of it as a drug you know it's
legal
and this was kind of how meth was
treated did in Germany it was normal to
use it like you had a a very important
business meeting of course you would
take a pevitine there's a a movie by
Billy Wilder called 123 very good movie
and he shows the American executive it
was it the movie set right after the the
end of the second world war so we see
like I think it's a Coca-Cola executive
American and he says to his secretary
uh how should I have the morning coffee
I half of a pevitine. So pevitine was
also normal. It wasn't stigmatized. It
was it it it was not the American just
say no propaganda where your teeth fall
out. And I mean it was a German quality
product. People liked it. Of course they
did uh tests at universities like but
most of them were quite positive like
yeah it reduces your fear. Today we
might you know look for different things
but this was also a performancedriven
totalitarian society moving towards war.
So if someone takes pevitine and says in
the clinical test at the university I
have I'm not afraid of anything anymore.
So that's positive. That's actually what
got the guy who worked for the German
army interested because he read
university reports. I I also saw all of
these reports. They were also in the
military archive. So he's like, "Okay,
you're not afraid anymore if you take
methamphetamine. You don't need to sleep
anymore. You don't need to eat so much
because your appetite is lowered." Like,
this is perfect for a soldier. So
negative effects only became public in
1940 when the first Pavitine opponent,
he was actually a relative of Alberta,
Hitler's architect and later armament
arm arms minister. He was the this
psychologist. He was the first one who
said, "Wait a minute. First of all,
methamphetamine is against the nazi
ideology because now we're all taking a
drug to be high performers. We have to
be high performers without a drug." And
he also said, "Yeah, you know, this the
obvious, this is going to make you
addicted, etc. This will, you know,
create a tolerance." So only then the
first negative reports came out. before
that what Temla did and then what the
universities did they all thought
methamphetamine is really good.
>> So what was the process of convincing
the German military the army to use it
at scale?
>> Well, Professor Ranka was employed by
the army. So it was his job to find
things that would improve the
performance of the German soldier. I
always imagine him like a a James Bond
character like Q who developed like
gadgets and stuff because he also
developed gadgets.
So he was quite a you know he was an
academic but he was also a soldier you
know he was employed but he was
basically running this institute
examining it and he was so convinced
that pav pavvetine is the answer to his
question how to beat the main opponent
of the German soldier and that was not
the British soldier not the French
soldier not the Russian soldier that was
fatigue he had been looking for a way to
keep a soldier awake longer.
So when he read these reports
um from universities, he did his own
tests in the military academy with young
medical officers. They came together at
8:00 p.m. in the evening and then they
received
either methamphetamine,
caffeine pill, or placebo or benzadine.
like they had different experiments and
he always concluded at the end like at
like they start at 8:00 p.m. and like at
10:00 a.m. in the morning one time he
notes the pevitine people still want to
go out and party while like the the
caffeine guys are like sleeping on the
bench and the you know it was clear that
pevitine is the strongest it gives you
the most energy lets you work for the
longest time. So he was convinced but
his superior like the surgeon general of
the German army he was like an old
school dude and he was like he didn't
even react to these like rank would
write letters we have to use synthetic
drug in the next campaign which was
against Poland which he knew about and
uh because Pvine was quite known in the
civil society people were using it
already so he said he even said a lot of
soldiers will just take it with them and
we should we should control that we
should make it an official drug. But the
surgeon general didn't understand. He he
didn't reply. So Germany attacked Poland
without a clear like regulatory system
on methamphetamine. And indeed a lot of
soldiers used it. And what Ranka then
was did was he requested from all the
the medical officers in the field in
Poland. The war was over after a few
weeks. So but the German army was
occupying Poland. He said, "Send me all
back reports and tell me what did did
your people take pevitine and what were
the effects?" And he collected all these
reports which I also studied in the
military archive and he came to the
conclusion this is a really good
fighting drug and it probably is because
people are still using it today.
Methamphetamine is still being used and
Ranka discovered this. He had he had
everything in front of him and Poland
was beaten and then Hitler wanted to
attack the west and the west was a
different story than Poland because the
west was the world empire of Great
Britain combined with L Grand Army the
strongest army in the world the French
army these two combined you know how can
you win that Poland they could overpower
they had you know better army than
Poland but is the German Vat really
better than both of these armies
combined behind his officers didn't
think so. High command said, "No, we're
not going to attack the West. We're
going to lose." And Hitler Hitler was
fanatic about it. He really wanted to
attack it. They were planning a coup
against him in November 1939
just to prevent him ordering the attack
on the West because it would have been a
catastrophe for for Germany because they
really cared. You know, if you're a high
command, you don't want to start a war
that you're going to lose. you know,
very bad. Can you just briefly um give
us a sense of do you think this is
genius or insanity on Hitler's part to
think that he can take on probably
what's perceived as to be the most
powerful military in the world, which is
the French military or at least in
Europe. I think his hatred for the
French was very very deep. He really he
really wanted to go to war with them. It
was an ideological
irrational decision. That's why he was
he was not he didn't hate the the
empire. He kind of looked down he
admired it and looked down on
>> You mean the British Empire?
>> Yeah.
>> But the French he really hated and
France had been the app find the
genetic enemy of the German people at
least right-wingers would say. So um
there had been two wars. uh the first
one Germany had won then first world war
Germany had lost
so Hitler wanted to kind of revenge and
also stop the Versail treaty so he
really needed to attack the west at
least in his in his mindset but it was
an irrational decision and that's why
high command said no we're not going to
do it basically and Hitler's position at
the time was not that he could do
anything he wanted I mean high command
is still a high command of the German
veh that's a very old you know it's it's
a it's a tradition It's
they they they do whatever they they
want, you know, but also they have to
obey Hitler's order. So, it's a it's a
power struggle basically. Um, but to
invade France was a totally stupid idea,
but it changed in the morning on the
morning of February 17th, 1940.
Hitler invited three young tank generals
to his office and they had a plan which
was the plan to go through the Aden
mountains. That was the victorious idea.
So it's not the drugs actually that idea
to go through the Aden mountain. If you
if you think monocausal you would say
that's the reason that idea was genius
and Hitler immediately understood it
because before the plan was to attack in
the north of Belgium which is the same
as World War I and you it comes a
stalemate and they fight for months and
no one really moves and it's bloody and
it's nothing's happening. It's a bad but
that was the only plan that they had.
That's why the high command said, "No,
we're not going to do it. It's stupid."
Um, but these three tank generals, they
had kind of like somehow they were able
to snuck into Hitler's office and they
said, "Look, if you if we go with the
whole army through the Aden mountains
and like Hitler, this is not possible.
This is like a mountain range, how can
the whole German army fit through this
eye of a needle basically?" And they
said, "No, we can do it because everyone
misunderstands what tanks can do." Tanks
are not
slow
machines in the back that kind of wait
for the action to happen and then you
know I don't know support this somehow.
We're going to use tanks in the front as
race cars basically. We're going to over
power the enemy. We're going to be in
France before the French who are
stationed all with the with the British
in in northern Belgium and also on the
Majinino line but not really in the Aden
mountains. that was hardly fortified
because no one could imagine that
Germany would go through there. And
before they know it, we are already
behind them. Basically, we are already
in France and they're still hanging out
in northern Belgium because it takes
quite a while, you know, to travel.
>> This was uh a different time also. Um so
that he was convinced and he then
ordered the attack. the attack would
happen and that is then and but the it
would only work if you would reach Sedon
the border city of France within three
days and three nights.
the whole army or at least you know the
avanguard of the of of the machinery had
to be like a big part of the army had to
be in Sedan after 3 days and three
nights and that was only possible if you
don't stop and that was the problem the
sleep was really then suddenly became a
huge problem and Hitler said
when I was fighting in World War I of
course I could stay awake for a week I'm
a German you know even though he's not
even German. He's Austrian. But that was
a problem. But suddenly Ranka realized
that his moment had come because he had
the recipe
how people could stay awake for 3 days
and three nights. So Ranka suddenly
became before that he was kind of an
outsider like the freak with the drug
idea. Suddenly he became like okay tell
us how does it work? And he gave like
lectures in front of the officers and he
wrote a stimulant decree where like a
whole army is prescribed a drug in this
case methamphetamine. How much should be
taken at what intervals? What are the
side effects? So this was a this became
a very big thing and then TLA had to
deliver 35 million dosages to the to the
front lines which were no not the front
yet. I mean it was they they were
stationed in in the west of Germany and
then on May 10th they took their
methamphetamine and they started the
surprise attack through the Aden
mountain.
>> So 35 million dosages for the French
campaign. I mean we could probably talk
for many hours about this particular
campaign because um it is I think it's
fair to say the most successful military
campaign from the German side
>> ended with a big mistake. Dunkirk.
>> Dunkirk.
>> It was brilliant up until that point.
That is the turning point. That was the
first big mistake Hitler did. And it
also had to do with drugs.
>> We'll talk about it, but let's just
linger on this three days.
>> So, uh, we should also mention that's
where Blitz Creek really shined. So, it
wasn't just the tanks, it was the
infantry, it was the aircraft moving
very fast
>> uh behind the the French lines. I mean,
what can you speak to just the execution
of that campaign and the role of drugs
in it? And it is, we should say, a
really bold strategic decision to uh use
meth. I mean, it's a big risk. There's a
lot of risks taken here, which could
could be seen as military genius or
military insanity and uh or a mixture of
both. Well, they were very lucky that it
all worked out. Like it also the the
guys in the tanks could all have freaked
out on the meth because then it it was
never tested before. Can you actually be
in a combat situation in a tank in enemy
territory on meth? Can people actually
cope with that and be better fighters
>> going through the mountains?
>> It's insane.
>> Against the biggest military in Europe.
Well, what meth does is
because I read reports of depressed the
depressed atmosphere right before the
attack started because they were afraid.
They thought they would lose. Like they
didn't want that, you know, soldiers,
maybe some, you know, really hardcore
Nazi soldiers, but most people were just
normal guys, you know, they didn't want
to start that. But once they had the
methamphetamine, it kind of it you're
like in a party mood. So also when
you're in the tank, you know, and
everyone likes it, you know, it's rather
an uplifting thing like they were they
were really getting into it and they
really, you know, they started fighting
then is also intoxication, you know,
it's a it's a rush like what is what is
what does meth feel like?
>> Well, meth creates the so-called fight
or flight motors. So either you like it
releases all the neurotransmitters in
the brain which are released in
situations of high danger for example.
So in a highly dangerous situation you
become very alert so you can cope with
the situation. If you're like if you're
like under life threat and you don't
even react to it you're probably going
to be dead you know but uh the body does
that and methamphetamine does that. So
you you take a a pill of methamphetamine
or you snort a line of methamphetamine
and you're like and you're like this
you're like and um then that's the fight
or flight mode. Either you run away like
it's too much you know I but on math you
usually don't run away. You kind of
think it's really cool what's happening.
You you like to move, you like to be
with your pals, you like to you know be
in a tank's grave.
>> So there is a party aspect to it.
>> I think it was very joyful for the
German soldiers because it was
springtime.
They had immediate successes and it
wasn't heavy fighting. It was all it was
just being in the tank. I mean there was
of course fighting and there were also
war crimes and I read a report when
Romel high on math like at night doesn't
stop of course because they all you know
they don't stop at night but every army
usually stops at night. So the French
army were stopping. They were in a
village camping out and the German Romel
was going with the tank through that
village with his division just running
over people
and he was standing like in the open lid
of the tank and he was like going
through that thing, you know, and you
know like a berserk uh type of you know
warrior. And that was when that to me is
a war crime. that that is when the when
the veh lost its innocence in that push
of of Romel through the French
countryside because you don't do that
you know your enemies sleeping because
the French also had a drug regulation
they received 3/4 of a of a liter of red
wine per man per day so of course at
night they're going to be sleepy uh on
red wine and the Germans were like on
math and they were just running over
them there's descriptions of the chains
of the tank becoming bloody I think he
did it. He was like, "Oh my god, what
did I just do? I'm sorry." You know
what? What am I doing here? He was in
the in the movie. You know,
>> this is the dark thing about human
nature that in war, if you dehumanize,
if you allow your brain to dehumanize
the enemy, the opponent, the humans in
the other side,
you can actually
I I think hate can take over. And in
that hate, you can find pleasure when
you murder the other.
And people have written about this, have
talked about this. It's probably a thing
that a person like me can't possibly
comprehend unless I experienced it. And
you have to be in the mania, in the
hysteria, in the insanity intensity of
war.
I mean, what Evans, for example, said is
that I excuse the Germans of the war
crimes because they were just in an
intoxication. I understand that
argument, but and if you look at
individual soldiers, it's quite tricky.
Like it's a 19-year-old guy. He's been
drafted and in Nazi Germany, if you
don't go, you land in the concentration
camp. So, you can choose, you know,
concentration camp or you just join the
ranks and then you get pavvitine and
then you invade France. There was a
trial in Germany because someone said
all soldiers are murderers
and I think then the German bundesear
like sued him. No, soldiers are not
murderers. And he actually won in court.
So it's legal in Germany to call every
soldier a murderer.
But it's a it's a tricky it's a tricky
question. Yeah, I remember seeing the
documentary on the ordinary people. I
there's also social pressure. Again,
saying this to say, I think the
documentary, Ordinary People, was
looking at the Germans that were part of
the shooting squads.
>> Mhm.
>> And you know, they didn't understand
what they're signing up for. And they
were told that they're free to leave
once they understand what they're doing.
And many of them didn't. And they didn't
have hate for Jews or for the people who
are they're murdering. You are again a
19, 20-year-old young kid.
Like it's so hard to comprehend the
moral insanity that's happening all
around you and you just kind of want to
fit in.
>> I mean that's why I wrote the book The
Bohemians because there were a few
people in Berlin that didn't react this
way but they reacted in a different way.
They said we cannot be part of this. Um
>> but it's hard to be the person.
>> It's very hard. Yeah. And most people
are part of it because it's much more
safe or at least it seems more safe. I
mean it has its own perils you know
um because you might become a genocidal
murderer you know that might happen like
are you responsible I would say you are
responsible but that's just my personal
gut feeling like I always thought my
grandfather was responsible for the
genocide because he was working for the
German railway system and he once saw a
train car full of Jews in a cattle wagon
and he only said to me, "Yeah, this was
against German railway regulations."
I said, "So, what did you do?" And he
said, "Well, there were SS at the
station where I was working and I was
too too scared. I didn't do anything."
So, I thought that he was he he made
himself guilty. I thought that's and my
father, for example, reacted very
strongly because of that. He never
called him by his first name, the the
father of his wife because he still had
that, you know, he was a Nazi because he
was working for the railway. Um, so I
wouldn't excuse I wouldn't excuse people
actually and I certainly would not
excuse
highranking politicians that make
policies because the the genocidal
policies that the Nazis developed and
the war policies that they developed had
nothing to do with drugs. And I never
write that in any, you know, because
there's no documents. If I would find
documents that say, "Yeah, when we, you
know, but this the Nazi ideology has
nothing to do with drugs, maybe with
alcohol, you know, but it's
and I spoke with my father who had been
a high judge in Germany. What does
actually the law say?" And the law says
if you plan a crime
and then maybe when you commit it, you
are under the influence, it does not
diminish your responsibility.
Your responsibilities only diminish.
Let's say you're a totally normal
person, never done any harm to anybody,
and suddenly you take a drug that or
you're totally drunk and you don't know
what you're doing and you kill someone,
then a judge could say maybe you have a
lesser responsibility. But this is not
the case uh with the crimes of national
socialism. And I never even hint at that
in my book. So I think that criticism by
Evans
was shortsighted. I wouldn't I I think
he's he's not right about that.
>> Yeah, I I think uh I agree with you
totally. I didn't get that sense.
>> He thought the book was very successful
because a lot of right-wing people
bought it, but that's not simply not
true.
>> I think your book did a masterful job of
never
um making itself amenable to that kind
of narrative. To the contrary, I got a
an angry letter by a German army
uh employee, quite a high officer and a
military historian.
And he said that I
he also thought I overemphasized the
drug use of the methamphetamine in the
in the Western campaign because he said
the German army was just so good. and
you kind of diminish their capability by
saying they were only so good because
they took methamphetamine. I thought
that was kind of funny because the veh
doesn't exist anymore and the the new
German the current German army is called
the bundesva and they're not
historically they're not supposed to be
connected like there was a clear cut but
he still felt that I was kind of hurting
the pride of of the vyama. So I I I
generally sort of agree with him
in general. It seems like great
historians often. I'm just a human, so
I'm not a historian, but they undermine
the importance of the heroes that make
up an army.
>> The Soviet army, the British army, the
French army, the the German army. Like
these are humans.
And some of the great military campaigns
involve people really stepping up now.
Like the effectiveness of the military
tactics with Blitzkrieg, the
effectiveness of meth, the strategic
decisions around where to invade, the
timing, the speed, all of those are
important, but there's humans there.
There's real heroes.
And sometimes historians kind of
diminish that. I don't know what to make
sense of it. I I might be just an idiot,
but I've had a great conversation with
James Holland. I've gotten to know him
well. He kind of analyzed the mistakes
made by Hitler and by Stalin and the uh
Operation Barbar Roa.
But I just through generations because I
grew up uh in the Soviet Union, you hear
these stories of these heroes. You know,
my grandfather was a was a machine
gunner and miraculously survived. And
like I just knowing those stories,
Stalingrad would not have happened
without the heroes on the Soviet side.
And it's easy to say there's a lot of
blunders, a lot of bad tactics, all this
kind of stuff. But to me, from the human
side, I just know through my bloodline,
the people that have fearlessly given
their life to defend their homeland. And
that sometimes could be e a little bit
easily dismissed. So I don't know what
to make sense of it. Maybe I'm
romanticizing or maybe I'm speaking to
the suffering that the people have felt
and they just uh propagate themselves
through my my life story and then maybe
the gratitude I have for uh the people
who have stopped the the Nazi forces. I
think it's amazing what the Russian
soldiers actually did because they beat
the Vey. It was really the Red Army on
the ground that did the job, you know.
And did they love communism and their
system? I don't think so. And I think
they were I mean, of course, some
people, but basically they were
defending their country and um I'm also
very grateful to them. Yeah, they're
defending their families. Quick pause.
Bathroom break.
>> Okay.
All right. We're back.
So, can we say a bit more about the
French campaign? So, in um it was over
in 6 weeks.
It took six weeks to completely defeat
and occupy most of France.
Uh and the initial operation three days
was from a military perspective
successful.
Um what else do we
what else can we say about the role of
drugs the effectiveness? What was
learned from that experience by the mar?
I mean for me to research the western
campaign was very interesting because I
didn't really know anything about it
except that Germany won very quickly. So
to actually
look at the details is very interesting
and the drugs give you kind of a way in.
What are some things you found in the
archives that were interesting like
about maybe letters, reports, diaries?
They gave you some insights about the
the the human story of it all. Well,
there is letters for example by Hinish
Bur who won the Nobel Prize later in
literature. He writes to his parents
describing in detail what what Pavvatine
did to him, how it kept his mood up and
that without Pavvatine he wouldn't have
been able to do the job. But also
military documents I found very
interesting. For example, I could see
exactly how the methamphetamine was
distributed because it was not
distributed equally. It was done in a
way that the tank troops who were
leading the advance received the most
meth and they also needed it. Um I could
like see how many pills on which date
were delivered to RML's troops and RML
became I call him the crystal fox in my
book um for obvious reasons like his
division was using a lot of math
>> and he was using math as well. I just
have descriptions how he like totally
crazy stands in the open lid of the tank
and all his pe well they had the math
but there's no
>> from that
>> there's no they they maybe they didn't
use it
>> maybe he didn't use it
>> but it looks like he used it um like
there was also never any reports that
all the meth was given back
I mean a lot of soldiers write that they
take it but Romel specifically
um I like I wouldn't write in my in
blitz that
like RL would take methamphetamine like
on such a day or something if there was
no record for it. But Romel there is a
record for it that RL's division
used the most meth of any tank division.
So I write about that and that's that
already makes him the crystal fox
because you know in his division crystal
meth is you know rampant.
>> You know it's like an animal farm when
the pigs discover alcohol. Animal Farm
by George Orwell. There's no evidence
that they drank. It's just the next day
that they're all hung over. I mean, Raml
is a very interesting character in
general because later he turned,
apparently turned against Hitler. He was
part of the conspiracy of the operation
Valkyrie.
He received, you know, the offer to
shoot himself in the forest, which he
did instead of being tried and executed.
Is he just part of the this general
tension that the generals the military
had with Hitler? That'd be fair to say.
I would say so. Yes. Um I'm not an
expert on the Viam. This is a very
complex large organization, but I see
most of the officers of the Viamart as
not necessarily Nazis in the way that
they would, you know, shout hal Hitler
all the time. They were highly
intelligent, highly trained, super
professionals
that ran a very effective war machine.
And at one point, more and more of these
generals realized that the orders that
Hitler were given were not really
helping, you know, and they have their
men dying because of it. So that creates
a lot of tension and um that that led to
um the mistake that Hitler did in
Dunkerk. Basically what Churchill called
the sickle cut which was the idea to
storm through the Aden mountains and
kind of cut off the British and French
troops who were still you know in the
north of Belgian trying to figure out
what was going on. Suddenly the Germans
are behind them so that they they kind
of cut as a like a sickle into enemy
territory. the single cut that was so
successful um that basically the
campaign was won already. Um so then the
Germans invaded like occupied all the
cities on the on the canal uh back to
England to kind of cut off the British
completely. So they couldn't you know
even flee but there was just Dunkirk was
open the last port that was open and the
German army was like you know they were
already on the outskirts of Dunkirk.
they could have just taken it and closed
that, you know, that uh hole for for the
British military to get out. But Hitler
uh then did his famous and this is all
in the dynamic of the western campaign.
You know, a lot of things happen every
day. And then they're saying like we're
going to have Dunkirk tomorrow and then
it's over. And then Hitler stops the
tanks. It's this famous halt the the
order to stop. Uh, and you know, they
were all on meth, you know, they didn't
want to stop. But Hitler was not on
meth. Uh, Hitler was um he was he he
basically it was a little bit similar
than Berlin Munich uh thing. Hitler
didn't really understand that campaign.
It was too fast for him. He because they
didn't say like, "Oh, they're all on me.
They're not going to sleep. They they're
going to behave erratically." They don't
didn't discuss this. They discussed this
in the oldfashioned terms. And Hitler
was seeing like they do not protect
their flanks. What if the British come
from the north? This is terrible. Like
militarily it was a they were already
fighting World War II while Hitler was
still fighting World War I. And
especially the Allies, they were still
fighting World War I. But the tank
generals on math or the tank generals
without math, the tank generals per se,
they were fighting a new type of war.
And Hitler
then got a visit from Guring, the head
of the air force, the Luftwaffer. And
Guring was a morphinist. That was that
is very well documented. Like he was on
morphine. He was high as a kite most of
the time. And that comes with losing
touch with reality, I would say, or at
least it it changes your grip on
reality. You know, maybe you're still a
good decision maker, but it could lead
to, you know, if you're intoxicated,
let's say you're writing and you're
intoxicated, you think it's great, but
the next day you read it is shit, you
know. So,
Guring was using morphine in the
morning, then met met Hitler at the
Felen Nest, which was Hitler's
headquarters to to uh command the
western campaign, the Felen nest. And
Guring said to him,
if the army generals are now going to
take Dunkirk, then basically the army
has won this campaign and that will give
army high command which is already
against you because they were you know
for them Hitler was always like the uh
the fry to like the small kind of
regular army guy because that's what
Hitler had been in in in the in first
world war and now suddenly he was the
big decision maker. So they never they
thought they make much better decisions
than him. So Guring says their power
will be so
overwhelming that they will from now on
call the shots how this war will
continue and what will be done next. You
should let me with the Luftwafer do the
job from the air. The national socialist
Luftvaf is going to end the western
campaign. So he thought that he could
destroy
it doesn't make sense you know even
destroy the British military from myth
planes maybe you can do it but certainly
he couldn't do it so the the tank
generals received the hal the whole the
stopping order they didn't believe it
when they received it because the
victory this would have been complete
victory over Great Britain this would
have been the end of Great Britain the
whole British military was encircled,
but they did get out through Dunkirk.
That's why the movie Dunkerk by
Christopher Nolan is not good because he
doesn't describe what happened on the
German side. He's just this heroic
British thing. Yeah, we just got out and
we reformed and then we beat, you know,
this was just because Hitler was afraid
of the power uh of of his of army high
command and convinced by Guring's
morphine high vision that he would stop
it with with the air force, which he
couldn't, which he couldn't. Yeah, I
mean he bombed and then the British, you
know, they weren't ships and few ships
were sunk, but basically they got they
got out. You need to do this on the
ground. At least back then, you would
have needed to do it on the ground. So
that was the a big mistake by Hitler.
That's why Fon Manstein, one of the
three tank generals from February 17th
was Romel, Fon Mannstein, and Gutieran.
And Fon Mannstein, he later said he
spoke of a felor Nazique, a lost
victory. He said the Western campaign
was a lost victory because we really
could have achieved the victory. We
could have dominated, you know, Brit.
They could have, you know, invaded
Britain. There was no more military.
>> Well, okay. On land.
>> Well, there was still the Royal Air
Force.
>> Uh, and the and the Navy.
>> And the Navy. Yeah.
>> So, like, so invading invading Britain,
I I think any invasion of actual Britain
is a gigantic mistake on the Nazi part.
>> But if Britain doesn't have a standing
army anymore, it's much easier than they
still have one.
>> I think it's still extremely difficult
to invade. But it's much easier to sort
of neutralize
make sure that n that that that Britain
is not a player in the war. I mean the
>> for sure maybe Hitler wouldn't wouldn't
have invaded at all anyhow.
>> Also because of his sort of not respect
but non-hatred
>> right
>> of the British Empire
>> because they're also white supremacists.
So
>> why why why would we fight them? You
know it doesn't make sense. While the
French they were already like half black
basically in Hitler's eyes. If we're to
talk about counterfactual history
of the possible trajectories of the war
that would lead to Nazi victory,
one of the big mistakes
is uh the invasion of Britain. So you
already mentioned the mistake with
Dunkark but beyond that if they even
captured mainland Europe
the they could have just neutralized the
British threat and not invaded Britain
and then go after the oil which is much
needed maybe in the Middle East. So
focus on that campaign before invading
the Soviet Union and then maybe wait for
the Soviet Union to invade them through
Poland which will be likely coming or
wait until 1943 something like this to
invade east without the western front
having to be been there. And the the
other really big mistake is is um
declaring war against the United States,
having complete disrespect for the
United States and in in declaring war in
the United States,
>> which would didn't have to be done at
all.
>> Right.
>> So it's collecting enemies when those
didn't have to be uh uh done. So there
is to me actually there's a lot of paths
there
as dark as it it is to imagine for uh
Nazi Germany to be successful in the
invasion of the Soviet Union even. Well,
I think that's why the Vat officers were
pissed at Hitler because they knew that
they could actually win if it was done
in a certain way. But Hitler's ideology
and his stupidity
and later also his the degeneration of
his cognitive abilities
did not allow the veh to fight in the
most um effective way. So they had a
Hitler was a very bad leader after
Dunkirk.
>> So uh can you speak to the morphine?
What kind of drug is morphine?
Morphine
was developed in the 19th century by a
German a young chemist called Satua
>> and he wanted to know what is
the potent alkyoid in opium because
opium is a natural drug but there's
something in the opium that actually is
decisive and that's morphine. So he was
able to extract that from the opium. So
he basically this young guy he invented
um morphine which then became you know
very important in wars especially like
the American civil war is unthinkable
without morphine or at least it would
have been very different because with
morphine you can treat people, you can
amputate people, you can fix people up
so and and send them back into battle
and that that also corresponded with the
development of the hypodermic needle,
the injection needle.
That was around in the mid 19th century.
So the injection needle and morphine
together became a very efficient way to
treat soldiers and that prolonged for
example the civil war in America.
>> So Guring was taking morphine.
>> Yeah. Morphine is like the classic. It's
like
you don't eat opium you know that's you
you take what is active in opium and and
you inject it. Uh, and that's a much
that's a very potent, you know, that
numbs all your pain. Like you don't have
you don't have pain anymore if you're on
morphine.
>> Also affects judgment.
>> I've never taken morphine. Um, so I
cannot I cannot really say um I like
there's a few junkies
that have highly creative on it. Like a
lot of musicians in the 60s were using
heroin which is a more potent form or
like it's a it's a half synthetic. It's
an opioid. Morphine is an opiate and and
heroin is an opioid.
Um I guess you could be quite sharp in
it also. That's why Hitler liked ooodal
which is oxyon
oxycodone
and he injected that
>> which is another opiate heroin like
>> it was a product by the merc company
from Damst Germany. They made ooodal
which when Germany lost the war the
patent was basically taken by America
and then ended up in an oxycodone.
So if you inject Ooda that was a very
popular drug in the 20s because
apparently it gives you the most
beautiful high on earth. You're like
super high like you feel extremely well
and you can think very clearly and you
feel like this is how this is how life
should feel on high on odal. is like
Klaus man the son of Thomas man he used
oda quite a few doctors actually used it
also and probably quite a few Jewish
doctors also used it because this was
like a doctor's drug doctors knew how to
you know set the the injection and it
was you know a great experience and
Hitler he really loved to be on ocodal
like he would use ocodile every second
day in the beginning 10 milligrams
introvenously then he raised to 20
milligs and I spoke to someone who's
actually done exactly that drug
application
because I wanted to know how Hitler felt
and I didn't feel like doing it myself
for some reason. I was I don't like
needles. So I didn't want to put a
needle in my vein to have like the
Hitler drug experience. I should have
done it like a historian, a proper
historian never does that. Okay. So I
take I but I thought I should take quite
a few drugs that are right about to
understand it better. But this drug I
didn't take. I didn't I never shot uh
oxycodone introvenously into my veins.
But I I met someone who did and he said
it's it's like the it's like the king's
high, you know, if you do that properly.
Obviously, you get addicted to it. You
know, I'd be scared to try.
>> Very intense experience.
>> I think it's a very badass thing to do
for a historian, by the way. But I think
it's a big risk. I think I I think I
mean there is a risk that comes along
with it, right?
>> Well, but not for Hitler because he got
the ooda from the pharmacy. He knew
exactly like his doctor knew exactly
what was inside. It was made by a
pharmaceutical company.
>> No, I mean the risk of addiction.
>> Yeah, that is a big risk. That is a big
risk. But there's also the risk of
getting impure stuff and like heroin on
the street and and die from an overdose
or
>> but the addiction thing is very I think
it happens quite quickly with odai
because it's such a great feeling.
>> So why wouldn't you do it over and over
again? because and then the opioid
receptors in the brain
want you to take it and if you don't
take it you get withdrawal symptoms and
you feel like shit and you have to so
that's the problem with opioids with
morphine that's what happens and that's
what happened to Hitler I generally say
yes to most things uh but
those the those drugs like cocaine
doesn't scare me heroin scares me like
the opioids scare me oxycodone scares
because they really make you physically
dependent. I I don't even know if
cocaine makes you physically dependent.
It makes you psychologically
addicted, but they actually you have to
get it otherwise you feel bad. That's a
physical terrible.
>> And also for life to feel like less when
you're not on it,
>> right?
>> That scares me.
>> That's the problem also with
methamphetamine. People who use a lot of
methamphetamine on days they don't use
it, they don't feel great at all.
especially not compared to the
methamphetamine days. So that became a
problem in Germany when people were
really using more and more of the
pavitine.
>> All right, you got to take me through
the full drug cocktail that uh Hitler
was on patient A of Morels's. Let's
start at the beginning. We're big on
setting context here. So tell the story
of uh Dr. Theodor Morel. How did he meet
Hitler? Well, Morel was he had his
practice on Kirsten Dam which is like
the main boulevard of Berlin in the west
of Berlin kind of a fancy street and he
was a celebrity doctor
which was a new type of doctor in a way
Dr. Feelgood he kind of was one of the
first Dr. feel good. So you didn't go to
him when you had a disease. You went to
him when you were, let's say you were
like an opera
star in the Berlin Opera and you had a
big premiere. So you would go to Morel
in the afternoon and he would give you a
nice shot and then you would, you know,
be really good on stage. Um,
so he but he was not a quack. I mean he
was ser he he just knew his drugs and he
believed in you know why shouldn't you
treat someone even if that person
doesn't have a disease if you can make
that person feel better it's good
especially if that person pays like he
said everyone who pays my and it wasn't
cheap who comes to me and wants a
testosterone testosterone hormone
injection or a vitamin injection or an
opioid injection you get it from him he
didn't have any scruples.
>> I mean, but we should also say he was
pretty innovative and uh extremely
knowledgeable. So, you mentioned
hormones, but also uh you know, like
probiotics like you're talking about,
>> just he knew his shit.
>> He was a bit of a nerd. He was
>> like a legit doctor, just didn't have
boundaries
>> about what he used.
>> He had a very unappealing physical
appearance
and I think that was a problem for him.
And he was known to have very bad eating
habits. Like sauce was running and so
people were easily disgusted by him. He
was like an outsider. He was really like
a freak. But when people looked at him
after he had given them an injection and
they said, "Thank you and I feel so
great now." That's what kind of made his
day, you know. So one day a man entered
his uh doctor's office on Kufist Dum
named Hubatus Hoffman. And Softman was a
photographer
and he had gorrhea and uh Morel because
he knew about alternative ways to treat
he actually cured him.
>> Mhm.
>> And uh Hubet Hoffman said to Morel, "I
have a good friend and I think you
should meet him and I'm going to have a
dinner in Munich and I think it would be
really worth your time to come." and uh
Morel came and the good friend was
Hitler because Hoffman was the
photographer of Hitler and they were in
German we have a U a formal U which is Z
like if I don't know you so well I say Z
and if you're my close friend I say do
you
>> and Hitler only had like four people he
would say you too.
>> He was always like the C like the
distance it was always about distance
and respect and borders and boundaries.
What are the two again? C and what?
>> Do.
>> C and do.
>> Yeah. C is the formal one and do is the
is the informal one.
>> Yeah. Know in Russian there's the same
thing. V and the. And so there's a big
that's a big thing
>> also in Fr. In French you also have
that. You have that in Spanish. No, only
in English you don't have it. And there
it is part of the cultural sort of
discourse
uh of like when you upgrade from the V
to the T from the C to the D or from the
do to the C
>> from the C to the do the upgrade because
you become more intimate.
>> Yeah. Like and you ask can I go from C
to do?
>> Yeah. Like the older person must suggest
it I think.
>> Yeah. Okay. The beautiful language. So
Hoffman was a dign
a dudes we say of Hitler. So he was
quite close to Hitler and so that's why
he could also make that close
connection. So he had a dinner with just
him, Hitler, Ava Brown, Hitler's
girlfriend and Morel came like they sent
a plane to Berlin to pick him up. So it
was like VIP treatment. It was the whole
thing.
>> And this is 3
>> 36. Yeah. They had spaghetti with tomato
sauce on the side. I read in the there's
like a description of this event.
The tomato sauce was on the side and
there was muscat. What is muscat? It's a
it's a spice.
>> Mhm.
>> Nutmeg.
>> Yeah, it was a nutmeg, which is an
unusual recipe, I guess, but that's what
they had. And spaghetti wasn't a fancy
thing, you know. It came from Italy,
from Mussolini, the the who invented
fascism in Italy and who was like
Hitler's role model for a long time
until Hitler surpassed him, obviously.
So the spaghetti the spaghetti they came
from Italy and it was like a big thing
and Morel had the big problem that
spaghetti is hard to eat right and he
couldn't even like it was a catastrophe
but he got out of it because Hitler
complained about stomach problems
because Hitler was a terrible
vegetarian. He was a so-called cake
vegetarian. He would only eat like
sweets like cake, no meat of course, but
like he wouldn't like eat healthy stuff,
you know? So he he was bloated the whole
time cuz we only eat like cake and white
bread and it's not good.
So he voiced that and there was also uh
Brand was there like his an official
doctor from the from the from the SS
that was like his doctor and and Hitler
said my doctors can't cure me and Morel
was like this is my chance. Thank thank
you God. Uh and he told Hitler about the
probiotics which Hitler had never heard
of and like also Brand the doctor he
hadn't heard of because that was a new
thing that you give and he Hitler was
asking what is that and Morel said these
are live bacteria
from like German soldiers from the war
in the first world war that were
fighting in Serbia. There was one guy
who didn't get the stomach flu and all
the others like drank the water in
Serbia and all got sick. this one guy.
So his bacteria and this is a true
story. His gut bacteria were cultivated
into a medicine called mutaflla
and morel told Hitler about this and he
said this is amazing like I have to try
this you know and it helped you know he
got the mutaflla he did the mutaflla
kind of therapy and it cured him. He
suddenly had no bloating anymore. And
the farting of Hitler was really bad. So
bad that he it would like he like const
like it diminished his,
you know, ability to work, you know. So
suddenly he could work. So he felt
better. He didn't have the pain. He felt
great. So he really thought that Morel
is a wonder doctor. And he asked Morel
pretty quickly afterwards, uh, do you
want to be my personal physician?
And Morel was like his his wife was very
much against it because she said if you
uh become the personal physician of
Hitler won't have any time for me
anymore. And he said like come on man
this is like the chance you only get
once in your life.
>> Yeah. I mean at this point Hitler is a
really big deal.
>> He's the most powerful man in Europe
>> and there have not been war crimes
because the war hasn't started yet.
Obviously, there's concentration camps
and a lot of crimes have been committed,
but it's also kind of hushed up. You
know, it was it's not such a huge thing
as now we know it became. So, Morel
never really has any conscientious
problems. He just think it's great, you
know, I'm going to be the doctor. I'm
going to be part of history.
So he becomes a personal physician and
being this vitamin guy like vitamins
were really his thing like he believed
in the power of vitamins and today I
think we know that he was right.
Vitamins are good but back then no one
knew. Uh and Hitler was like okay he
told Hitler and then Hitler said okay I
want to try this vitamins and
and what they did from the beginning was
injections because Hitler didn't want to
take a pill because a pill takes too
long and it goes through the the track
that he has the problems with like the
digestion like he didn't want to take a
pill he believed in the injection and
Morel was the masterful injector so
Morel because the needles were thicker
than they are today but Morel could give
you an injection without you feeling any
pain. So Hitler was quite impressed. So
he got like a vitamin C injection, but
Hitler loved the daily injection. So he
got hooked on the daily injection. Once
he got the injection, the day was good.
And he never got sick actually like and
he could stand like for a long time with
the arm raised. He did like uh he he
went to the gym basically. I mean, he
had a gym where he he was like doing
exercise so he could have the the arm up
for like hours when a military parade
would walk by. So, he was quite fit and
he was never sick and Mor was giving him
the daily injection. And they they lived
happily ever after basically until the
Soviet Union attack.
>> Well, wait. He literally lifted so he
can do the the how Hitler salute.
>> Yeah, I found a doc I found a document
for that.
>> That's funny. Oh god, that's dark.
>> He had an expander. We say I don't know.
Do you use that word in English?
Expander.
>> Oh, like a a band.
>> Yeah, it's like this. You do like
>> Yeah. Yeah, I have one of those.
>> Yeah, that's what that's what that's
what he did
>> in front of the window.
>> Well, at least he's not doing in front
of a mirror. Okay. Wow, that's dark.
Okay, that's I mean those little
details,
yet another reminder that he's just a
human being.
>> I mean, it's hard to keep your arm up
for like hours. You can't let it down.
If you keep it up, that's what it's all
about, you know.
>> I mean, he was very much about the
facade, right? He's very important to
present himself in a certain kind of way
when he's giving the speeches.
>> Yeah. It was everything was
orchestrated. The Nazis were masters in
propaganda. They really knew how to
create the perfect image.
>> Uh, okay. So, let's go into the the
cocktail started with the vitamins. This
is in 36, right? I think it was pretty
harmless in the beginning.
just but the addiction to the injection
was the main thing that I think happened
that Hitler needed his doctor
but from 36 to 41 only like vitamins are
being injected and glucose
so I don't think it really harms you I
mean it might benefit you he never got
sick he was fit this I mean this is the
thing that
>> that was phase one of his drug use were
the vitamins until 41
>> so you think the tweaking at the
Olympics that you've talked about
before, but it's still So, you're saying
this person
>> we're watching a video of here is not on
drugs.
>> I don't know. I don't think so.
>> So, the video is fake. It could be sped
up.
>> I think it's fake because I think
someone read my book that Hitler was on
thought that Hitler was always on math
and created this, but I might be wrong
>> and the narrative takes hold. And uh I
think the thing you mentioned he could
be on sugar. Uh, so it could be a lot of
elements.
>> He was also a weird guy. Maybe he was
really just rocking because he was so
happy what he saw, you know? Maybe he
really got into it. Maybe it was a
sexual thing for him what he saw. I
don't know. There's no document showing
that he took a drug on that day. Let's
put it that way.
>> I think I've been especially like stay
up all night. I'll get
I've been fidgety.
>> You just be caught in a certain moment
when you're being like very like
>> like fidgety. I think he probably rocked
a few times and then the video was cut
in a way that he rocks more or
something.
>> Also, methamphetamine wasn't yet
available in 1936. That's important to
say.
>> For sure. He he was not.
>> So, what is what is said here on Hitler
tweaking on meth at the 1936 Olympics is
definitely false.
>> Okay, there you go. So, when did it
start getting more serious the the
injection and the kind of drugs he was
taking? This was a day in August of
1941.
Germany had
invaded the Soviet Union on June 22nd.
So this is about six weeks into the
campaign which was called unanim babosa
and Germany was doing pretty well and it
came to a crucial moment where high
command said now we're going to take
Moscow
and Hitler said no we're going to split
up the troops and take Linenard which is
now St. Petersburg in the north and in
the south we're going to go for the for
the oil fields. Basically that was his
plan. He said let's not do Moscow. And
high command was like this is the
biggest mistake. We must take Moscow. If
we if we take Moscow we're going to win.
Uh and Hitler became ill for the first
time
on the day this decision. I mean this is
a dynamic thing that's going on. you
know they're moving and now they have to
decide will we split up or we will
continue towards Moscow and um he had
the Russian flu in German the R which is
a like a flu type disease with very high
fever it comes like they were in the
field like so they were in the east you
know camping out maybe he drank water
that wasn't good or he had some you know
they tested everything meticulously but
he got you know he got sick high fever
he felt like shit and he said to Morel
Uh, and you know, you can see that in
Morel's notes. Like Morel describes this
very vividly in in his notes which are
at the federal archives. Uh, which no
historian ever ever looked at except me
the non-historian which is kind of
funny. Uh, so he describes how Hitler
then asks of him basically says vitamins
are not enough anymore like he's very
weak. He must
go to the military briefing. But if you
the flu is quite a heav severe disease I
think if you have a heavy flu you really
feel like you're going to die. You can't
go to a military briefing. But Mor kind
of fought with himself and then he
decided to inject an opioid into
Hitler's veins intravenously like the
strongest application possible. And this
was Dolantine which is a German opioid
that was legal.
And um I was once an exchange student in
Flint, Michigan,
1988. And I was number one of the tennis
team cuz I was quite a good tennis
player. We were playing our main enemy.
>> I think it I was at Flint Patholic High
School in Flint, Michigan. And I think
it was Power Central
>> and they had a number one Mark Restiner.
>> Still remember. Wow. He was feared
>> and no one no one could beat him.
>> Yes.
>> And on the day of the match, I had the
Russian flu basically. I was and I was
the hope. I was the number one the
wonder kid from Germany and they took me
to a doctor
and the doctor gave me an injection and
I don't know until this day because I
just I was you know kid I got the
injection I was 17 and I felt great like
the flu was gone like this. It was
probably an opioid, something, you know,
something that just shuts off all the
pain and gives you, you know, energy.
And I beat this guy.
>> Mhm.
>> In a way, I totally
I I thought of a new technique by
playing like very high balls like in the
in a in a direct like fierceful
competition, I would have lost. So, I
played something that in Germany we call
footen, which is something you don't
really do. You just play high
>> balls,
>> which is not pretty to look at, but it's
very effective. And he just lost he just
lost his nerve. And I beat him like 660
6 something like that. Sensational.
>> So Hitler receives this uh this
Dolantine injection and he gets up, he
goes into the meeting room, he dominates
the meeting room, he feels great.
He decides, you know, in front of
everybody and no one is able to no one
overpowers him in that meeting. He was
very good in the room and the the troops
are split up like Lady Guard is now a
target. This weakens the general thrust
towards Moscow.
>> This is probably why they didn't take
Moscow. They probably could have taken
it or maybe not, you know, but that's
the decision was made in August to
>> I think it's one of the biggest blunders
of the
>> not take Moscow
>> to not take Moscow. I think they had a
straight shot given this organization
>> they had the one time thing the one time
moment where they could have done it
>> and the German war machine could only
win in so-called speed wars like
lightning war only if they would do it
very fast and surprise because they were
always weaker basically they just had
this moment this dynamic moment and this
was fueled by the methamphetamine also
in the Soviet Union hundreds of millions
of dosages were given so the Germans
were really going and at one point this
ends you No, you can't take meth for the
rest of your life. You're just going to
end up being a nervous wreck, but you
can do it for like 2 months. You could
do it, but then it stops. I think if
you're really honest about where you
have the the asymmetry of power, which
is in the speed of the blitzkrieg. So
that's similar to Jenghask Khan who had
a very small military
but their advantage was I mean I think
at the peak it would be probably 100,000
uh
and but but every soldier of Jagus Khan
had five horses. So
>> the the whole point was they can move
really fast. They they and they not just
fast but they can move on all terrain.
So they can go around. You know, if wars
were fought on normal roads, you're
supposed to travel a certain kind of
way. If you go fast and around
uh not on paths that are usually taking
attack from all kinds of sides, that's
why you can conquer as much as Jenis
Khan was able to conquer. And the same
thing with the with the Nazi forces.
This is their biggest advantage. And the
not using that is is is is essentially
the end of its effectiveness. I think
that's also why the tank troops were
such a good weapon because they can go
off-road while military vehicles, cars
cannot do it. Like a tank can even go
through a forest and just you know kill,
you know, small trees and just run over
it. So that was uh that that those are
kind of the five horses that uh that was
the idea that they had at this working
breakfast. That's what they presented to
Hitler. We're going to use the tank
force in a very different way and that's
going to enable us to win the lightning
war campaigns.
>> Was that one of the first times he he he
he tried an opiate like that, an intense
one?
>> That was the first time
>> and then he it that was it for him.
Well, not immediately. Like you can see
when you study his medications that that
is a turning point in a way that now he
he deviates from the vitamins. Like he
becomes more interested in what's out
there. And like from 41 to 43, he tries
out a lot of medications that he didn't
try out before. Before that, it was
quite conventional, mostly vitamins and
glucose. But now he becomes experimental
and he discusses this with Morel and
Morel is also very experimental like
they got really they really nerded
themselves into like what can we use
like bull's testicle extracts. So Morel
in order to present those things to uh
his patient a he created a
pharmaceutical
uh company
that he ran. He was so he was a personal
physician of Hitler and he was also the
CEO of Hama Pharmaceuticals which had
its production site in occupied
Czechoslovakia.
And
for example at one point when Germany
had invaded the Ukraine, Morel
asked for a monopoly for all the organs
of all the slaughtered animals from all
the slaughter houses in the Ukraine. So
this was a huge logistical operation
like all the slaughtered animals all the
organs were removed for the personal
physition of the fura sent in military
trains back to the to the factory in in
occupied Czechoslovakia and like the the
military became really upset with that
because they said we need our trains to
transport back our wounded soldiers. Now
we're like cars are full with like awful
and pigs hearts and pigs and and livers
and it was totally bizarre. And Morel
but Morel then became like he was this
like goodnatured Dr. feel good in the
beginning and then when the Ukraine was
occupied, he became this like
business freak who like made a lot of
money with his dubious hormonal
concoctions where like he would threaten
the army if you don't let the train with
my raw materials go to my factory I will
tell Hitler and you will have a problem.
He was up he was acting like that. He he
became quite an asshole actually. um and
a war criminal because he also at his uh
factory where he would make the famous
pig liver extract that was then tested
by Hitler and Hitler said it was that's
a that's a good medication I feel more I
have more energy so this can also be
sold to the German military that's how
it worked because the regulations at the
time were that it was very difficult to
bring out a new medication onto the
market because medications to bring them
onto the market you certain test phases
and all of that stuff. So that's hard to
do in a in a war, especially in in World
War II. So Hitler said to Morel, "I'm
going to be your guinea pig. You just
make it in your factory. I test it and
if I think it's good, then I'm just
going to write a Today you would say
like a decree, you know, because I'm the
president, you know, I can like order it
that it's going to be legal all over
Germany."
>> So Hitler was a real drug guy. He liked
drugs. Well, he liked to experiment, I
would say, with his with with drugs and
with morale. They never like he was
against drugs, you know. He was
>> But but that's a crazy thing for a guy
who didn't do anything, right?
>> It's a big uh
contradiction or it's a big irony or
it's very weird.
>> But isn't it even a bit of a mystery?
Cuz at that stage, I'm sure he was
paranoid about being killed and all that
kind of stuff. So he must have really
trusted Morel, right?
>> Yeah, he trusted Morel because Morel was
not part of any organization. He was the
loner coming from the VIP doctor's his
own VIP doctor's office and now he was
basically Hitler's toy. Like Hitler
could get access to all kinds of
medications through him and Mor would
never say it to anybody, you know, he
would just write it down. But this was
kept quite secret. No one knew what was
going on between the two men. That's
just so interesting cuz like why why
would he there there might be can you
maybe even speak to that? Why did Hitler
trust another human being this much? Cuz
you could probably make the case nobody
was closer to Hitler than Morel.
>> That is that is certainly the story I'm
telling.
>> Isn't that crazy? Like what is that?
What is it about Morell? this guy who's
he's I guess he's fat and weird and like
uh nobody really likes him.
He was not a threat to Hitler. Like
Hitler hated all the super smart
medicine people. Like he didn't he never
undressed before them. He never let
himself be seen naked because he didn't
want anyone to know anything, you know,
about him that he couldn't control. So
Moray was harmless. Mor would basically
did what Hitler wanted. They wouldn't
say we're going to take today we're
going to take drugs together. It's going
to be fun. You know, Hitler was always
about optimizing his performance because
he knew only I'm doing this. I have to
he always thought he's going to die
young. So he always like I don't have
unlimited time. The the the clock was
always ticking. So I have to be always
the high performer. So Hitler when he
when he first experienced
the beauty of the uh opioid high that
was given to him in August 1941
intravenously when he experienced that
kind of his eyes opened and he didn't
think this was a a drug. I mean this is
a medicine this is a medicine that helps
me function. This is a medicine that my
doctor gives me in a very controlled uh
manner and that lets me be extremely
sharp for like 8 hours. I can convince
all the generals I can do my job. I'm
happy because Hitler was also depressed
you know I mean this is
he need he need like he really
appreciated what the drug gave him but
he never thought now I'm becoming like a
drug addict or
>> so it begins to oxycodone in general
begins to work within 30 to 60 minutes
and last for about 4 to 6 hours this is
a longlasting thing
>> yeah but these are this this you swallow
if you get a introvenous injection it
works after 1 second
>> wow
>> get the injection you you're high last
for many hours.
>> Yeah, that's why people love heroin who
take it because you feel like shit. You
take the injection, you feel great. I
mean, it's in your system for quite a
while. Like, you can go into the meeting
quite comfortably.
>> Into the meeting. Yeah. Okay.
>> I mean, there's the briefing. It starts
at 1:00. Morel comes and you can see
this in the notes like I have to be at
the fura in his bedroom at 12 and then
you know you chat a bit and then Hitler
rolls up his uniform sleeve and then he
gets the injection maybe at maybe 12:30
then the high comes on and then it's
very stable like you feel great
this is a pure
uh product from the merc company this is
not some herin from the street and morel
knows exactly how what dosage you want
right now so You feel at the top of your
game. You You don't feel you're not
intoxicated. I mean, you are, but it
makes you clear, you know. So, the mind
is clear.
>> The mind's totally clear. Your body
feels fantastic. You know exactly your
points. You know exactly how the others
because the others are just mortals, you
know, because they're sober. They just
sit there and they just they haven't
slept very well or they have problems
with the with them, you know, and you're
you're way above them. What do we know
about general psychological effects of
it? So, does it boost your confidence?
Does it boost aggressiveness? What
effect did it have on his vision of the
world? It makes you feel extremely
confident.
You have a lot of energy, but it's not
too much. Like, let's say you take
cocaine or methamphetamine. You're like,
>> that's why Hitler was never a meth guy.
That's also why I think this video is
fake. He was he didn't take math. I
mean, I I I studied Morel's
uh the things he gave them. He he gave a
lot of things and only twice was meth.
So that was that's not a lot for Hitler.
Like twice.
>> I read that the multivitamin had some um
vetamine and maybe meth a little bit or
no multi.
>> I mean mutin
>> vita mutin mutin.
>> I mean vita mutin is interesting because
it was a little bar of a sweet that was
lying next to his food. So he would, you
know, eat and then at the end he would
take this. It was nice tasting. It had
some sugar in it. And I read through all
of the, you know, ingredients of the
there were different types and never,
there's never methamphetamine in it. Oh,
there isn't.
>> No, there was an SS doctor Shank and he
claimed that Morel made special vita
multine in his lab with meth in it, but
I think he just made that up.
>> Okay. There's there's there was never
any proof of that.
>> I mean, that's a really important like
line to draw.
The the army, the Nazi army at scale,
not everybody, but some fraction,
especially during the French campaign,
used meth,
>> right?
>> And then there's Hitler, which used a
lot of drugs,
but meth was not one of them really.
>> No, meth for him was just for the foot
soldiers, you know?
>> I mean, he didn't even talk about meth.
This is not nothing that concerned him,
you know. This is something that makes
you function. Maybe he signed I mean it
went over his desk the stimulant decree,
but I don't know if he really read it or
understood it. I mean he probably knew
PV team because everyone knew it and
maybe you know they discussed it but
they would probably also not I mean
there's there's a point when there's a
conflict about methamphetamine in the
army. This is when the secretary of
health of the German government, the
Nazi government, uh, Conti, he starts
writing to the army and he says, "You
must stop this. This is against Nazi
ideology."
But the army basically doesn't listen to
him and keeps on using meth all the way
to the end. So maybe that guy Conti
maybe he discussed this with Hitler, but
also Hitler never, you know, if Hitler
would have said we stopped the
methamphetamine, it probably would have
stopped. But Ki saying that wasn't
wasn't enough. I don't think Hitler was
really into meth. It was not his thing.
He was more into the opioids,
into these weird hormonal things. Like
those things were especially the opioids
were interesting to him because you can
function on opioids for a long time if
you have a proper product and a doctor
that gives you the injections. I mean,
Guring was high was addicted to
morphine.
from 1923 until when the Americans
captured him in 45
that's 22 years he was functioning on
morphine and when they captured him he
had I write about it in blitz like the
amount of morphine capsules he had on
him so what the Americans did was first
to take away all the morphine from him
and then he went through withdrawal in
American you know incarceration
and he lost you know a lot of pounds and
he became like a more of a haggard
uh Guring which was then in Nuremberg
you know this haggard kind of guy
defending what he did and so um Hitler
was really an Hitler was really an
opioid guy while the army was really
messed up that's that's how you could
sum it up briefly he did try cocaine why
didn't he get into cocaine
>> he started cocaine after the bomb attack
by Stalenburg on July 20th 1944
when this bomb went off which actually
killed a few people in the room. This
was during a military briefing.
Stolenberg put a bag with explosives
under the table and the table actually
saved Hitler's life because it was a
good German quality oak table. So the
table was so stable that the bomb
explosion
kind of just kind of blew up the table.
But Hitler behind the table was
protected by this table.
>> Yeah, this is the closest assassination
attempt probably.
>> I mean it's very weird that it didn't
succeed because he had the bomb. He put
it next to Hitler. He took out some of
the explosives before he went into the
room. This is one of the big mysteries.
Why did Stalenburg take out some of the
explosives? There's no explanation for
it. But Hitler survived. But he was
quite injured, which Nazi propaganda
always
denied. Like they always said the hit
the the fuel was miraculously unharmed.
But he was quite harmed. There were like
over 100 splinters from the wood
everywhere. His eard drums were blown
which was you know it's quite an injury
I guess you know he was bleeding
internally and he was shell shocked
basically and then a new doctor comes in
his name is gezing because morel was not
a in Germany we have well I guess it's
worldwide it's the ear nose and throat
specialist right
>> so an ear nose and throat specialist
from the German army called Dr. Gizing.
He was ordered to come into headquarters
after the bomb attack to treat Hitler's
blown ear uh drums.
And geezing gave Hitler cocaine because
cocaine
at the time was being was you know it
was used. It was not schedule one. you
know, it was it had the effect that it
would numb the pain and you could you
could like use it
uh you would like put it on a certain
place where you had the pain and then it
would numb that area.
>> But Hitler was like he he'd never taken
cocaine before, but he got very
interested in it. And Gizing writes a
meticulous report about his experiences
with Hitler alone. That report is is
really fun to read. It's about a 15page
report that he did for uh American
military after the war when he was being
interrogated by American military. He
like described what happened with Hitler
and him and he realized that Hitler
really liked the cocaine and then he
like started saying now give it in the
nose and then it was a a liquid that he
could apply like with a dab like into
the nose like it was cocaine powder but
he could like
>> liquefied. Yeah. Interesting. liquified
cocaine and Hitler loved it and he's
just saying things like finally I can
think clear again and it he had this
cocaine rush which is a rush of uh
superiority. It's a it's a dangerous
drug because you think you know more
than the other. It's not very humble
drug, you know, it it it it just
increases the ego and um that actually
he liked that because that was, you
know, after the bomb attack he he
thought everyone is a traitor like he
didn't feel safe anymore in his own
bunker, you know, and he was like Nazis
and the right-wing is always paranoid
like who's the enemy? Like they're
behind us, like they're stabbing us in
the back. So Hitler was this type of
person. So the cocaine kind of
stabilized him and Gizing realized that
this guy is like a drug guy. Like he
didn't know. He like came in, he saw the
fuel for the first time. He's like he
was like in awe and like a drug wreck
was approaching him and as soon as he
had some cocaine in his system because
this was summer 44. He already had taken
a lot of opioids and a lot of drugs. So
he and a lot of these dubious hormonal
concoctions which led to autoimmune
diseases in Hitler, maybe even had
Parkinson's. He was morale basically
turned him into a physical wreck. That
Gizing also writes about this like he's
like trembling before he goes into the
room for the first time where the fur is
and then like old guy like in a blue
kind of pajama is kind of coming up to
him and kind of shaking his hand. That's
the fur, you know, and he's like totally
shocked because he's like, you know, the
the destiny of the German nation, the
whole Europe, everything is like
hangs on the sky, you know.
And then whenever he takes cocaine, he's
a little bit better. Like, but the
cocaine had the problem that
Gizing was more of a at least later in
his uh discussions with the US military,
he described himself as a conscientious
guy. And he's like,
I became like I had kind of problems
giving Hitler more cocaine. And
>> yeah, I mean, and I'm sure Hitler could
have sensed that. And then Morel started
disliking Gizing because Hitler spent
more time now with Gizing than with him.
And there was this the what I call the
doctor's war ensued because Gizing then
tried to get rid of Morel because Gizing
could suddenly see that Hitler was
receiving a lot of drugs and he was
taking cocaine with Gizing. Gizing left
the room. Then Morel would come in and
give him uh ooodile, the opioid
introvenously,
which is the speedball effect. Cocaine
and an opioid, you know, at the same
time. That's like that creates a really
crazy high, but that's a high that's not
stable anymore. You know, that's a
that's a high that you that's like at at
the end of your drug career, you take
the speedball.
>> So speedball is a combination of a
stimulant and a depressant.
>> Cocaine depressants.
Yeah. So, combining cocaine and heroin,
huh? Wow.
>> I've never had a speedball, but I think
it's like the most hardcore drug
experience you can have, you know, and
Hitler had this in the summer of 1944
for quite some time. And then the the
doctors really fought for an influence
over Hitler. And Gizing teamed up with
Himla, head of the SS, and basically
said to Himla, this Morel guy, and Himla
was already suspicious of Morel,
obviously, because Morel is spending so
much time with Hitler. There's no
control. Like Himla was a control freak.
What is he actually giving to the Fura?
The Fur doesn't look good anymore.
>> Mhm.
>> So Gizing was trying to get Morel out.
Maybe because he wanted Hitler to have a
better health. Maybe he wanted to have
the job himself.
He certainly tried to get rid of Morel
and it came to like the high high noon
situation like the duel between the two
doctors.
It's by the way why I think it's
completely insane that Hollywood hasn't
bought the rights yet alone this
doctor's war.
>> You mean for the entire Blitz story?
>> Yeah, of course.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's really I mean some of
the greatest movie I mean like uh Fear
and Alone in Las Vegas.
>> You can do a drug movie on the Nazis.
Uh, you know, one of my favorite movies
probably Downfall, which is Hitler in
the Bunker, which does I guess does
Downfall have a drug?
>> No, they missed they missed the drug
angle because my book hadn't been out
yet. They they don't they didn't know
about it.
>> That's why they be a different story.
>> They can't really explain why Hitler
became a physical wreck. There's no
explanation for it except the drugs, the
opioid addiction. You could explain it
is a part of it that you're you're it's
extremely stressful position he's in.
>> Yeah. But don't become a physical wreck
if
>> the physical wreck aspect. Yeah.
>> And there were two bedrooms in the
bunker in Berlin. Two bedrooms. One of
course for Hitler, the other one for
Morel. No one else was sleeping in the
bunker.
I mean, you can you can see the
importance of especially those last
months of Morel in the bunker. and they
didn't get that when they made the movie
The Downfall. But it's still an
interesting uh movie, but I can't take
it seriously because they didn't see
this. Um,
>> has a drug component. Again, I don't
think it has to be
the main thing, but it has to be a part
of it. A serious movie on Bliss would be
really nice. It's not easy to do.
>> No,
>> there's something about drugs. If you do
a movie on drugs
that involve drugs that it makes it you
can go too far into like Tarantino
territory,
>> right?
>> Where it's more like which is also
incredible and awesome, but it's a
different thing.
>> Well, he invents history and he's like
very open about it like this is not what
actually happened. I think a Blitz movie
would have to stick to the facts
>> and um I spoken with some directors,
very good German directors, and it's
just very hard to do, but but if you do
it well, that's a legendary movie.
>> Yeah, that would be incredible. Um what
can you just speak high level from from
what is it? You said 41 to 45. What were
some behavioral changes or changes in
decisionm
that we can trace
uh in Hitler
that that could be attributed to drugs?
Like how did they change him? Well, an
interesting event is July 1943
in a villa in northern Italy where
Hitler meets Mussolini.
And Mussolini is basically fed up with
the war and he wants Italy to leave the
axis of evil.
And Hitler is really pissed when he
hears that. He knows that's what the
meeting is all about. And Mussolini, I
mean, the Italians invented that modern
type of fascism. And they were all Italy
was the role model for Nazi Germany. But
by now Nazi Germany of course has been
much more powerful but you know Italy is
the most important ally and now
Mussolini is like quitting in the middle
of the war. I mean what is going on
here? So Hitler becomes and Morel writes
about this quite a lot. He's in a
terrible mood. He really he doesn't want
to go like
he might lose his you know temper or
whatever. He's not happy. And that's
actually that's the day when he receives
the odalai for the first time and he
because he says to Morel I'm under such
stress I'm not going to go he threatens
like he calls off the whole thing like
the plane's already waiting in in
Ubaltzburg
everything is ready and he says I'm not
meeting this guy and then Morel gives
him odal and you can see you know you
know the the the time when he gets the
ocodal and that's when he has this
effect for the first time he's like I
can do anything this is great I'm going
to I'm going to explain to Mussolini
that he's not going to leave the war
effort. And on the way to the plane, he
says to Morel that this uh Ocodal is
really helping him and he wants another
shot and he receives another shot. So he
has he has quite a lot of ocodal in him
when he speaks to Mussolini and there's
like
uh the people who take who write the
protocol of the meeting and also uh
other people around. It's not like it's
not just two people in the room. is like
I don't know 15 or 20 people in the room
and a lot of people talk about that
meeting in their memoirs
and um Mussolini is not able to say one
word basically because Hitler is so high
and so charged and he's like just
telling the whole time how great this is
you know what they're doing right now
and of course there's not even a it's
not possible that you're going to leave
you know we are in this together from
the you know he explains everything you
know the whole thing for like two hours
and Mussolini is just like it's like Uh
then a a messenger comes in and says uh
Rome has just been bombed. Uh he's like
he knows it's he can't say anything and
he stays you know. So that was very much
influenced that meeting by his ocodal
and that's probably because it was so
successful in Hitler's eyes. What
happened is why ocodal became a very
attractive drug for him. And this
happened this was the first time in July
1943. And then so he didn't take ocodal
through the whole time you know he only
started in July 43 he started with a
with a regular opioid use. You can see
that he takes it more and more regular
now not every day but sometimes like
there's a the September 1944 he takes
oat every second day which like junky
rhythm you take it then the next day you
don't take it then you take it again.
>> Why is that junky rhythm? You don't take
it all the time because you need to I
don't know relax or you don't there's
like you take it maybe Saturday night
you take it and the high lasts till
Sunday morning and then Sunday when the
high slowly wears off you sleep and then
you wake up and you're hungry maybe you
eat and then the next day Monday you're
going to do it again. So that's that's
this rhythm
>> and it was uh more potent than uh what
is it? Doine
>> dantine
is said to have the best effect the best
in the ter in the sense of it's not
about strength you know you just
increase the dosage and you have a
stronger effect but you can't increase
it too much because then you're going to
die you know that's also the problem
with opioids if you take too much you're
going to die because you just have a
heart attack. Uh so but
>> there's nuance differences that it's
hard to convert into words I guess.
Yeah,
>> different different molecules have
different effects. So, Orodal apparently
had the best effect. That's why they had
the oxycodone
>> epidemic in America because people take
this pill. I mean, thank God they're not
injecting at all like Hitler did. They
take a pill. So, it's not so dangerous
as injecting, but apparently the effect
is so pleasant of this ooodal of this uh
of this particular type of opioid that
it just is is more attractive maybe than
dolantine. Is it possible to try to
reverse engineer the effect of Hitler's
drug use on the outcome of World War II?
So, if he didn't use any drugs,
would uh the Nazis be more successful or
less successful? What do you think? I
think it would be speculative to answer,
but I can try. Uh but it's very uh the
war is so complex. I mean,
there's many different ways this war
could have played out and ended, but I
think it would always have ended with a
German defeat. But I don't think it
would have ended with a German defeat.
>> Well, if you don't attack the Soviet
Union, then of course you can win. But
as soon as you attack the Soviet Union,
that was
>> as we talked about, I think the
probability of success is low. But you
know, I would put it like I don't know
10%. Again, extremely speculative, but
yeah, if you do blitz Greek type of
attack, very rapid, don't split the
forces in operation Barbarosa. Go
straight from Moscow. Don't invade
Britain.
don't declare war on the uh United
States and really focus on gaining oil
from the Middle East. So maybe take
making the Africa campaign the central
uh point uh in the in the very beginning
so that you have the resources that are
essential for the industrial capacity of
Germany that's required to you know keep
manufacturing and keep fueling the
planes the tanks the the the the me the
mechanized aspect of the army. So there
there's a lot of paths to this. I mean,
but I don't think I think it's probably
fair to say that reasonable,
thoughtful, calculated, disciplined uh
leader would not have done any of the
things Hitler did even in the beginning.
I mean, it requires insanity. It
requires hatred. It requires ideological
self-capture where you tell yourself
narratives that rapidly deviate from
like ground truth from first principles
of things
>> and you just you're an insane person.
You're an insane dictator that's drunk
on power and it's impossible for you to
make great military decisions at that
point.
>> Yeah. You would need like an impossible
Hitler that is as crazy as he was but
still wouldn't make any irrational
mistakes. So that doesn't exist. Hitler
can only be imagined or understood as
this this this in a way as the the drugs
Hitler without drugs is unthinkable for
me and it it doesn't it makes it he was
the drug guy it you cannot you cannot
separate this um so Hitler was a
self-destructive
personality and national socialism is is
a self-destructive movement that's why I
said I think the Germans would have lost
in any case you know except If there was
this this perfect Hitler, which is
theoretically impossible,
>> theoretically impossible in the 20th
century. I mean you you could think of
Jenghis Khan or Alexander the Great type
characters that would really internalize
the sense of in the case of Hitler that
the German people are like without the
hatred without the ideology but with the
murderous
uh with the ability to dehumanize the
rest of the world and see as the German
people as
uh the superior and so it's fair to do
the Lebanon and all of that kind of
Right.
>> It's hard to
It's just uh the reason you want to
think about that kind of stuff is Hitler
got to me at least close to capturing a
very large part of the world and it's
inc it's it's it's terrifying and
uh sort of unbelievable that somebody
could get close to that. I mean what you
described as this feeling of superiority
and conquering countries that was
basically what the Vakar the high
command that's what they were going for.
Yeah.
>> And they wanted to eliminate Hitler in
the operation Valkyrie not because they
thought he's an evil guy killing the
Jews or you know they wanted to
eliminate him because he was not this
effective decision maker anymore that
they needed to win the war or to end it
in a different way. And um
I spoke with uh Anthony Beaver once
about um the
attempt of British intelligence to
assassinate Hitler.
and he had seen some evidence that at a
point in time they dropped those plans
because they knew
that
drugged Hitler or malfunctioning Hitler,
which he was after, you know, the summer
of 1943,
is better for Britain than, you know,
killing Hitler and then having to deal
with like some kind of, you know, maybe
the army would have taken over the
country and that would have been more
uncomfortable for Great Britain And then
having this having the continuation of
the degenerating maniac.
>> What what do we know about the very end?
Hitler in the bunker,
the the moments, the days, the weeks,
the months leading up to the suicide,
uh all those kinds of things.
>> It's quite well documented because
people at the time were keeping diaries
and writing about it, writing, writing
about their experiences. also Morel
wrote quite a bit what happened in the
bunker. Um, one thing that changed was
that uh, Oodal was not available
anymore. So the drug that Hitler
actually had become physically addicted
to was suddenly not available anymore.
This had to do with the bombardment of
the Merc company, the factory in
December 1944.
uh British uh bombers destroyed the
production facilities
and Morel there's a report of Morel the
overweight person
riding on a motorcycle through bombed
out Berlin from pharmacy to pharmacy
basically going into the pharmacy trying
to score odal and he couldn't find it
anymore it was nowhere to be found and
that's when Hitler goes into withdrawal
what I find surprising is that he didn't
use another opioid because morphine was
available all the way till the end. But
he never kind of made that switch then
like he doesn't also he didn't realize
for a long time that he becomes
physically dependent on a drug that he
becomes a drug addict but this
realization happens in the last uh weeks
in the bunker cuz Goubbles he understood
it and Goubbles wanted that bedroom the
second bedroom so he said to Hitler uh
do you understand what's going on that
morel makes turns you into a drug addict
and he does like and at one point he
realized what Gerbus is saying is true
because he felt the withdrawal. He was
shaking and he felt like shit and and
Mor is like giving him weird stuff in
the end like one time he gives him harm
which is an MAO inhibitor which is part
of Iawasa actually uh because he still
had that in his doctor's bag. It hadn't
been used yet. So gives him that which
also creates some kind of a weird high.
But you know, Hitler at one point
realizes really what's going on. This is
late April, so very late in the game.
And there's a few reports of what
actually happens. Like some say that
Morel has to kneel in front of him and
that Hitler puts a gun on his head and
says, "Uh, you've been making me
addicted to opioids. Get the hell out of
the bunker."
For sure. He fires him that day. and
Morz described as being in tears like
leaving the bunker. He gets one of the
last planes out of Berlin. Uh he has a
research lab in the south of Bavaria
close to the Bakhov and he makes like
the one of the last or the last plane
out of Berlin.
>> He survives.
>> Yeah. And he goes to this research lab
and this is like May 2nd, 1945. He has
like a little apartment in his research
lab. His wife is still in Berlin. He's
like all alone and he starts doing his
taxes.
And that kind of shows you that he was
probably insane at that point, you know,
just totally out of touch.
>> Why would you do your tax? Maybe he was
bored, you know? Maybe he's like he he
didn't do his taxes for so long because
he always had to treat Hitler and then
he thinks like, "No, what am I going to
do?" You know, I'm just going to do my t
at least I'm going to do my taxes now.
Very German thing to do.
>> He's just a strange character. I mean,
you tell this
>> I would put that in the movie for sure.
Him doing his taxes.
>> That's how the movie ends.
Well, then the Americans move into
Bavaria, liberate Bavaria from national
socialism,
which was a great job they did there.
And so I'm also thankful not only to the
Red Army, but also to the American
forces. Really uh very thankful that uh
they because National Socialist was hard
to beat. It was a beast, you know. It
was hard to beat. Um, so they capture
Morel and they interrogate him and he
actually lives for another two years in
American custody in Germany in a
military prison. And after these two
years, his health's really bad. He has
heart problems and uh the Americans dump
him in front of the Munich train station
in a much too small kind of uniform
jacket, like probably an American
uniform. and he's like lying on the
pavement in front of the train station
and a halfJewish nurse kind of walks
around there finds him and he says I'm
like it's really like in a movie I'm m I
was the personal physician of the fur
she's like this is 1947 Germany's in
ruins
>> uh and she brings him to a hospital his
wife comes from Berlin for the last time
they meet in the hospital at Tanzi
beautiful lake in Bavaria and then he
dies so that was the end of Morel it.
So, we know pretty much what happens in
the end.
>> Did somebody try to talk to Hitler about
this? Like what about Ava Braun? Has
anybody close to him try to talk about
>> well did
>> well that at the very end but you would
imagine maybe the the generals or
friends or in inner circle I mean that
the reason I mentioned Ava is because
you know like personal and people close
to him. There is a certain tension
between Eva Brown and Morel and I could
very well imagine that she talked with
Hitler about it but there's no record so
I don't know exactly
but they had a very intimate
relationship. So Eva Brown was not just
the the dumb blonde that plays no role.
They actually spoke every day and when
Hitler was in the military headquarters
he would phone her every night at 1000
p.m. They would have a a long phone
conversation. So they had a very deep
relationship and I'm pretty sure she
didn't really like Mor because you know
for the obvious reasons he was closer to
Hitler than herself and you know if you
you know count one plus one it's two you
know
>> but she could have maybe not liked him
because she might have cared for Hitler
and you can see the effects of drugs on
humans that you care for.
>> She also had a good relationship with
him at times because he was often at the
back. the back of was like the
the the what is it called? Melago.
>> Oh, the Mara Lago. Yeah.
>> Yeah, that's that was kind of what it
was.
>> And it was actually it became an
official headquarter for Hitler. So, he
would actually make decisions from
there. It was not just a vacation place.
And Morel was often there. And Ivapan
was always there. That was her place.
She was running that that place. She was
like the woman of that place. And Hitler
was often of course in the field in the
headquarters, but he came as much as he
could to the bakov because it's quite
beautiful. I went up there. It's quite
interesting. Um and she also had a good
relationship with Morel. And there's
like a paper that I found where
um like they were very intimate and very
close. Like there's a paper of Morel
where she comes to him in the morning
and she's she has like scratch marks. So
apparently they had violent sex. So
Morel is like al also kind of witness to
that that that I found in Washington DC
in the national
>> Hitler and AA had violent sex. What do
we know about Hitler's sex life? It's
like not known, right?
>> I found it interesting that Morel
describes these scratch marks. I mean
it's it's interesting. So they they they
had some kind of kinky sex. Maybe maybe
they also had normal sex and sometimes
it was kinky or maybe Hitler was
aggressive and bad. But it doesn't
really matter. It's just what happened
between Ava and him.
>> Yeah. I don't think that affected
>> military operations of the
>> drug use did his sex if he would have
had sex with like a lot of people maybe
with his generals. Maybe then, you know,
it would be worth writing about it
because maybe he dominated these
generals in bed or something, but he was
just having sex with Ava and I don't
think that's historically relevant. It
might be interesting for the movie, but
um also I don't want to see Hitler
having sex.
>> I don't think anyone wants to see Hitler
having
>> Eva Brown is an interesting character
because she had more of a say than
historians for a long time attributed to
her than a biography was written on her
by a female German historian. And that's
a very good biography. It really shows
that she had, you know, quite a lot to
say in this relationship. She was not
the dumb blonde that just she was quite,
you know, opinionated and and active.
So, it's it's and she was she was
filming him a lot like she had she was
always filming in the back hoof. You can
go online and look at the Ava Brown
clips and you will see Hitler in color
at the back of how he's like meeting
children, petting their head and you
know this is she was contributing to the
myth of this private the private man the
good private man. So Eva Bon is is an
interesting character for sure. But I
found one note that she in the beginning
when Morel started with his drugs said
to Morel that she wants the same drugs,
the same medications, not drugs, the
same medications as Hitler. So she would
be on one the same wavelengths with him.
She wanted to be she didn't want to lose
this world. But I mean Hitler became
such a drug polytoxiccomomanic
user that of course Ava couldn't keep up
with that. They weren't a drug couple. I
don't I didn't see any evidence for
that. That they would like take all the
crazy drugs together and then have crazy
sex or something like that. That's not
that's not how it was. So, I think she
was sympathetic to Morel in the
beginning and then changed her opinion
and I'm pretty sure she talked with
Hitler about it, but there's no records
about their private conversations.
Let's talk about another perspective on
this whole story uh that you document in
your book, The Bohemians. The subtitle
is the lovers who led Germany's
resistance against the Nazis. So this is
the story of the people who resisted
from within Germany.
>> Right.
>> Um can you can you tell their story and
in particular it's told through the
story of the uh two key figures in the
movement who happen to also be in love.
>> Well the main guy is Har
Schulz Boen.
He uh he caught my attention when I was
doing research in a in an archive in
Munich
researching drugs in the Luftwafer.
Guring's Luftwafer Guring being the
morphinist. I mean the Luftwava was a
drug
uh a very promiscuous place like a lot
of people in the Luftwaf are high al so
more for entertainment versus the
practical aspect
of so it's less about like the meth
optimizing the human performance and
more about just
exploring
>> like the number three of the Luftwafer
and UDE he committed suicide in the fall
of 1941
uh and he had had seven pervertin
tablets for breakfast. Okay, so he was
really high on math. He really enjoy but
he loved to take math and then drink.
Alcohol was a big thing in the Luftwafa.
>> Um you can drink a lot more when you're
on methamphetamine. Um and I found this
letter and it was really a coincidence
while I was looking through like the
drug stuff. I was searching for you know
drugs and I found this letter by Har
Schulzen
who had nothing to do with drugs but
still I found this letter. I don't know
why I can't I can't remember how exactly
it happened that I was suddenly reading
this letter and it was the last letter
that he wrote in his life. He wrote it
to his father and he said that
everything I have done I'm totally fine
with it and I know it's very hard for
you and I really am mostly sad for you
and mother and my brother uh that you
have to go through this and I'm very
sorry but I'm fine with it and I have a
clean conscience. I did what I could to
stop this madness. I'm like, what? Who
is this guy? You know, and I Googled him
and there were not so many hits on him,
but I read a little bit and he actually
had formed together with his wife
Libertas, which means freedom.
>> Good name.
>> He had formed the largest resistance
network against the Nazis that ever
existed. uh over a hundred people in
Berlin that were all connected and they
were
they were like from all flights of life
like there were some were artists, other
were workers, some were leftists, other
were patriots.
uh how
always believed that people could come
to an agreement like it's possible to
actually talk about things and
he was a he was a true democrat maybe
you could say or a true I don't know
libertarian or you know he was a
he had to learn a hard lesson that with
Nazis you cannot
argue because they they are always right
they're not they they It it it doesn't
work. At least it didn't work during the
Third Reich. Like he could he had he had
published a newspaper during the Vhimma
Republic called Gna which means
opponent. And in the Gna opponents could
all write like who would be on the
streets opponents they could all write
in the in the opponent. And so it was a
you read all kinds of texts and and and
and opinions. And he thought when Hitler
took over power in 33 that he could
continue to publish the opponent because
the opponent he he thought even you know
in a in a Nazileled Germany you know
this keeps the discourse you have to
have a discourse you have we have to
discuss we have to disagree you know uh
and then in in April 1933
2 months after Hitler took power they
had a meeting uh with the with the
editorial staff and they discussed the
new issue and then there was a knock on
the door and it was the SS and They uh
beat up everybody and they destroyed the
typewriters and the printing press that
they had in the office in Berlin. And
they took Haru and his best friend uh
who was half Jewish to one of these
early concentration camps and they
tortured both of them and uh the the Jew
was killed. He didn't make it. Henry
Alanga and Haro at that moment he
realized who he's against, you know,
that he has to he decided to become to
to fight this system. And the way he
fought the system
was uh later during the 60s uh we also
had a 60s kind of cultural
and political changes in Germany and
then our our 60s uh they they called it
march through the institutions that is a
way to infiltrate the system like to
become part of the system and then you
know change the system from within. So
you don't leave the country, you stay,
you go into the institutions, you march
through the institutions. So Haro
decided uh to go into the Luftvafa and
he was working in the air force Luftwafa
ministry, a huge building still intact
uh today in Berlin, Wilhim Strasa. Quite
an interesting building that was like
the power center of the Luftwafer, like
one of the most important structures in
the whole Nazi uh regime. and he was
working there and he worked his way up
and uh he received quite a lot of
information for example when Germany for
the first time became militarily active
again this was in 1936 when the Germans
supported the fascists in Spain in the
Spanish civil war this was a
clanderstein operation the Luftwafa did
this uh and they like German soldiers
went to Spain like in plain cloth like
to like posing as vacation ers, but then
they, you know, were actually soldiers
and supporting Franco's, you know, were
a part of Franco's victory later on. And
Haro had this information and he passed
he tried to pass this on to the BBC. He
failed passing it on. Well, he he met a
BBC journalist during the Olympic Games
in in in Berlin and told him about this
and the BBC guy was too afraid to make
this public and he kind of buried that
information. Um so Har is a it's it's
just a very interesting character and he
was in love with Libertas and Libertas
with him. Haro came from like a bourgeoa
family very educated. His great grand
uncle was frontier pits who built up the
marine the navy for the Kaiser. So he
came from this like influential German
family but they were all patriots. They
were not Nazis. They were democrats,
patriots and militarists I guess you
could say or like you know very straight
laced also in a way. Uh and and Liatas
she came from a castle north of Berlin.
She was this like bohemian like
aristocratic bohemian type very
good-looking always playing music and
they fell in love. They met on the van
on boats. Uh they were both on a on how
was rowing and she was on a sailboat of
a guy that How also knew. So he was
rowing and he saw the his friend on the
sailboat and he looked at Libertas, she
looked at him and they were in love in
and the the other guy the friend of Haro
he left his sailboat because he realized
I'm like the the the fifth wheel on the
car like not really needed right like
how do you say that in sailboat terms I
don't know the third third sail it's not
needed you know
>> but what happened at night how didn't
sleep with libertas for her that is very
unusual because everyone wanted to sleep
with her but how like he wanted to keep
his clothes on. It was a very warm night
and I researched this quite thoroughly
like I know exactly the temperature and
so also the Bohemians when you read the
Bohemians you really experience the life
of these people what like what they
experience but everything is nothing is
invented uh which is very tricky to do.
Uh so what happens that night like
Libertas wants to take off his clothes
and he doesn't want to take them off
because why? From the torture in April
1933 he has quite a lot of scars. They
even burned swastikas into his thighs
like not burned sorry they uh with
knives the SS. So he doesn't want to
show that to her. He just and he hadn't
had a girlfriend for a while. Like he
can't open up emotionally because he's
fighting the Nazis. It's very secret.
Like no one knows about this that he's
long-term planning his life to fight the
system that he hates so much because
they killed his best friend in front of
his eyes. Um but at one point Libertas
does, you know, take off his clothes and
she sees this and she's like naive.
She's even a member of the Nazi party,
but she's not a very active party
member. She's just, you know, she works
for MGM actually in Berlin, Mar
Hollywood film studio office in Berlin.
Germany was one of the biggest movie
markets and she was the press girl. Um,
she did the campaigns for the big uh
Hollywood movies uh in Germany.
>> So, just a regular German girl.
>> Well, she wasn't regular. She was from a
very high family. Um, actually her
grandfather had been in a relationship
with a German emperor, which is a side
story that I found out when I research
re researched the Bohemians. Uh, the
German emperor apparently was uh,
bisexual uh, and was going to that
castle and they had homosexual kind of
meetings there with Libertas's
grandfather. So, she came from a very
>> unusual family. Uh but what I mean
actually in a usual German girl, what I
mean by that is it it's not obvious that
a person like that would be would hold a
crucial role in the resistance against
the Nazis.
>> Not at all. That was always a problem
because for her it was weird that
someone was against the system.
But how told how was totally convinced
that fascism is wrong and that he has to
fight it. and more and more libertists
was convinced and then more friends uh
kind of came into the group and the way
how organized this resistance group
was through parties like they were like
a power couple of Berlin and they had a
a great loft apartment. They moved
together to a to a loft apartment on
also uh side street from Kudam, a huge
uh room and there they had parties every
second Thursday night and they would
invite friends and then
once they trusted someone personally
then they would spill the beans and say
this is actually not just a party but
they would like test it that like at the
party they would say something critical
of the regime and you immediately you
know either the person jumps on it
responds or like you know goes somewhere
else gets a drink at the bar you know
not not into it. So that was the way of
recruiting people and that was such an
efficient way that the Gestapo was not
able to understand this group for a long
time not even recognize that there is a
group because
Gestapo was very good in infiltrating
for example communist resistance groups
because you just had to go in as a
Gestapo guy and be a communist.
>> Mhm. just say the right words and they
would at one point, you know, take you.
But with Haro and Libertas, it wasn't so
easy. You know, they would they would
sniff you out, you know.
>> These parties were what? Like
intellectuals like uh
like artists and that kind of stuff.
>> Yeah. Yeah. They had music, they would
dance, they would sleep with each other.
They also
>> Oh, sex stuff, too.
Well, they had, and this is again kind
of a parallel to the 60s, they had the
idea that if you're against fascism,
if you're for
freedom of free,
>> the whole thing.
>> Yeah. They were they had free love, but
it wasn't a dogma. Like there were also
there was a a doctor, a female doctor
there. She was quite square, I guess you
would say, and she was like against
this. And she said, "This is too
complicated. We have we are resistance
group. like what if like there's
jealousy and what like that this could
compromise operations and it did
sometimes. So that's why the behemis are
very interesting subject because
sometimes it just doesn't work in a way
it works that love really bonds them
together
>> but also especially Libertas and how
they have a terrible marriage sometimes
like they really fight because Libertas
is not so much
intellectually convinced she's she she's
more resistance fighter from the heart
like she feels that the Nazis are not
good but how is more like the analytical
guy so they have a lot of friction also
and it's it's a it's a fascinating
story and they came quite far. I mean
they made there was a point in time when
Harold had militarily relevant
information through his position at the
Luftvafa ministry and he passed that on
to allies to Western allies and to the
Soviet Union. So he went a step further
than just being like a resistance guy.
He became you could say a trader or
>> he would give information to the
Soviets. Yeah, he would because he said
>> as part of the resistance.
>> Yeah, they can beat Germany. But that
was also discussed like in the groups.
Very interesting to see like some say we
can't do this because Soviet Union is
also totalitarian regime. But then how
says yeah but they will they are going
to beat Hitler like we like. So it's the
Bohemian is a very interesting topic.
What lessons do you learn from these
folks
maybe about
why so few resisted Hitler with in
Germany?
>> I mean it was extremely dangerous is
purely the danger
is it also people believed it's hard to
it's hard to uh take yourself like be an
independent thinker and take yourself
outside
the propaganda because they're also
swimming in propaganda.
I mean the chances of succeeding are
quite small because the system was
extremely strong and if you'd made a
joke about Hitler and the wrong person
heard it like in a restaurant and would
rat on you, you would land in a
concentration camp. So people were very
very careful also at parties with like
how on libertas and she was singing and
they were drinking and dancing and then
suddenly the political discussion
started. That's, you know, a you have to
have guts to then actually not leave the
party but to stay because they were
risking their lives basically as soon as
they would be found out they would be
dead and people don't want to die when
they're like in their mid20s. They were
all they were they were pretty young and
and also libertas she would often say
like we can't win you know it's why are
we risking our lives for like for like
what you know so one time they did a
um
clay settleioet
like they produced because one guy had
access to a printing press and they
produced leaf like small papers that had
glue on one side and the paper said
um what the Nazis did uh they they set
up a huge um exhibition hall which was
called the Soviet Paradise and this
exhibition hall was in the center of
Berlin. I'd never heard about this
before. I found this when I researched
the Bohemians and it was the most
popular exhibition during the whole of
the of the war. Like 2 million people 2
million Germans saw this. They went into
this uh exhibition and they saw how
horrible the Soviet Union is, how
horrible communism is to people. So, it
was a propaganda show
>> and the group uh decided to uh make
these leaflets which didn't say the
Soviet paradise, but it said the Nazi
paradise,
torture, SS torture, hunger, war, how
long will it last? and they glued over a
thousand of these stickers everywhere in
Berlin uh in the in May 1942
at night and they organized it in a way
that they always two a men and a woman
would go out and they had like the
stickers with them and then they would
pretend to kiss and would like lean on a
wall and then while they were kissing
one would like put the put the sticker
on then they would move on in the dark.
So in the morning of that May 1942,
tens of thousands of Berliners saw that
the the city was like saw these things.
So is does it make a difference? It made
one on that day. You know, it was a very
dangerous thing to do and no one was no
one got caught and in the morning a lot
of people saw that there is actually
resistance that there are people who do
something against it. So I think they
did something.
>> Yeah. I was reading about protests
in recent human history and then most of
them many of them don't uh have an
effect
until they do. It's like this threshold
effect. It's very hard to know. It's
very hard to know because it's it's it's
a match that lights a fire and sometimes
a spark that takes takes a little bit of
time to propagate through the whispers.
What happens is the people whispering.
It's the whisper network of people
talking. And sometimes it just takes
that one sticker to begin the whispers
and then few months later the regime is
overthrown. It's funny. It's hard to but
it's hard to sort of trace back what was
effective, what was not. I mean, how was
convinced that the system would lose.
So he thought that maybe we can make a
contribution that it's going faster now.
Maybe we will be that spark. So
>> yeah,
>> unless I when I think that there's this
possibility, I must try it. You know,
that's that was his conviction. So he
would put his life on the line for that
possibility.
>> How did they get caught?
>> They were approached by the Soviet Union
who wanted to recruit them as spies and
they um didn't want to do that. How
refused the Soviet intelligence Um,
these are documents that were found
in the early 90s.
One of the sons of one of the members of
that group of Har, good friend of Har,
one of his sons went to Moscow to look
at the files and he found kind of
furious Soviet uh KGB kind of
descriptions of this weird guy that
doesn't want to be a proper Soviet spy
and just says, "Yes, I'm going to give
you information so you can hurt Hitler,
but I'm not going to play your game. I'm
not going to be one of you. Um, so still
they did collaborate with the Soviet
Union.
They accepted a radio transmitter from
the Soviet Union with with which they
were supposed to send uh military
information via radio to Moscow.
And um they like struggle with the
technology. the Russians give them like
a an apparatus only with like a Russian
instruction and it's like very
difficult. They make mistakes. But what
actually then gets them caught is the
Russians at one point answer and send a
message to them through the ether and in
and that message is uh is coded
but the Nazis intercept that message and
are able to decode it. And in the
message it gives the clear names of Haru
and his address which is a total like
intelligence blunder or
maybe they just wanted to give them up
and and and had their revenge because
Stalin Stalin did crazy stuff like that,
you know. So they suddenly know the
Gestapo knows Harrosen the highranking
officer and the Luftwafa ministry is
giving military information
uh to the Soviet Union and apparently
like he's meeting with all kinds of
friends. So they started the Gestapo
started observing the group for months
and the group at one point realizes that
they've been basically found out and but
then it's already too late. Then they
capture quite a few of them and quite a
few get uh trial military trial and
receive the death penalty
and are also being executed
and Haro and Libertas are among them and
also that last chapter of their lives is
uh very well documented and it's
actually ends with that letter you know
that I found in the beginning that's the
last thing that Harold does is write
that letter
>> to his father It's very interesting what
happens with Libertas because she gets
in custody.
Uh the Gestapo
uh asks one of their secretaries get the
brighter to go in and pose as a friend
to Libertas and Libertas actually falls
for it and starts telling that secretary
who pretends to be her friend and kind
of helps her with certain things, tells
her secrets and that kind of breaks the
neck of the group. It's very it's very
it's a very tragic ending.
So while my books always contain as much
humor as possible, that is not a funny
story, but it's a very dramatic story.
Even though they had a lot of humor,
obviously I mean they they had parties
to recruit people. What lessons can we
learn from that
about uh how to resist totalitarian
regimes?
Is there some deeper wisdom?
>> I just think it's admirable to be brave
and uh not uh
not do things that you cannot really uh
that you cannot really justify in front
of your own conscience. Um I don't know
if I would have been so brave. I don't
even know obviously how my conscience
would have been, but I'm probably more
the fleeing type. Like a lot of writers
would just leave Germany like Thomas man
just left Germany and and lived in
Pacific Palisades
>> and then and then maybe Wright
criticized but leave first
>> and he criticized it from the outside
and he was quite influential like he
worked for the BBC that did like shows
against the Nazis. So you can all maybe
you can do more when you leave. Um, it's
just you have it's like today, let's say
we see something, we live in a system
that suddenly changes and we're not
happy with it anymore. Do we just go
along and, you know, continue to to
stare at our smartphone or do we do
something against it? What do we do? I
mean, every situation has very
different, you know,
conditions. You know, I think it's
probably even harder now to to be in the
resistance uh than it was back then.
>> But I think it does at the end of the
day boil down to facing yourself,
looking yourself in the mirror that
you're facing your conscious and then
doing
the the courageous thing.
And I think that in itself that like
it's the tree falling in the forest even
if there's nobody there to hear it. Just
the fact that that exists somehow
through the karma channels of the world
can materialize into progress into a a
revolution against the oppression.
Some something about that that human
spirit still shining through can start a
revolution.
>> I mean it it is that spirit that
actually made us human. It is that uh
that neuroplastic
neuroplasticity in our brain that uh we
do not just repeat the conditioned
uh
sets that we we we ought to repeat, but
that we actually
dim down the command center in the brain
and let other parts of the brain react.
which is the psychedelic experience
basically
um that I think contributes to the to
the evolution of our species and our
species is certainly
threatened by extinction. So I think uh
if we are somehow care for the human
race um
then resistance becomes a very
uh immediate and important topic you
know because you can resist obviously
your brain is yours uh you can resist in
many ways you know by thinking just by
thinking that's actually why I became a
writer when I was a teenager I was very
political I wanted to change the system
I thought this is not this is not good
what's happening. This was in the cold
war very cons
I don't know if conservative is even the
right word but you know Ronald Reagan
was president so I thought my writing
could change the brain waves of the
readers basically and therefore have a
uh a neuroplastic effect on the reader
and just because that is what literature
is literature and I started off as a as
a as a novelist and that's really
literature it's about what what do you
see right now? How do you describe it?
So you do it in ways that when you read
it, when you read a good book, you feel
good because suddenly you see different
things. Your brain changes. You become
more free. I think if you read good
literature, that was always my form of
of resistance. Communist resistance
cells would probably say this is
nothing, you know, but I think it is
resistance and that's a little bit
I think it resembles a little bit what
this group did.
Just living differently,
not living, you know, that's why I said
in the beginning Nazis are bad dancers
because they I think they were good
dancers at the parties, you know, and
they were like um I think it's dancing
can be a form of resistance. Yeah, but I
also like the scale uh when you resist
and through that resistance you have
impact at scale and I do think writing
is that. So if you can encapsulate
your sort of the spirit of that
resistance into writing that's that's
beautiful and some of the greatest
literature does exactly that
>> right that is the aim of my next book.
>> So is this still called stone sapiens?
>> Yeah it's called stone sapiens.
>> Great title. Great title. So what what
is this lens that you're looking at at
all of human history through?
>> I discussed this with uh already
mentioned Anthony Beaver uh who is like
the master in historical non-fiction
books. I said is it also possible to
write a world history like about
everything basically and he said yes it
is possible it's not easy because you
have to understand like a lot you know
and obviously it will always be
uh a selection it's clear you know um
that's why I also think that the
historical science is basically a
fictional science I mean I have a
forward the blitz forward basically
tells that story don't take it with a
grain of salt not only Blitz but every
historical book because we weren't
there, you know. That's what Johnny Depp
said when the when the when the guy
said, "So, you had like a mega pint of
of red wine." He just said, "Were you
there?" You know, and the guy wasn't
there. So,
>> um
his historical sciences is a fiction.
>> Yeah.
>> But, you know, it's a certain type of
fiction and it it's based on facts. So
I'm not inventing anything in stone
sapiens and I'm highly interested in the
very early uh human history and there
are not a lot of sources. So the the
beginning of the book
is more speculative than for example the
Vietnam war chapter. In the Vietnam War
chapter, I'm in Hanoi speaking to
Vietkong uh generals asking them did
they supply heroin to the to the GIS
which would dimin which which diminished
their fighting capability. That's you
can research that and that's that's
that's also a chapter. And by the way,
the Vietnam War is not called the
Vietnam War in Vietnam. It's called the
American War. And also I was like
sitting with these Vietkong generals in
Hanoi just like a few weeks ago for
researching for stone sapiens and I said
so did the Vietkong bring uh heroin
because it's there's
there's never been evidence that it
happened this way and they just looked
at me and they said there's no Viet
Kong. Like what are you talking about?
You are the Vietkong. He said no this is
an American propaganda term. We're the
we were the North Vietnamese army. We
never call ourselves the Vietkong. So
the book is full of surprises obviously.
Uh but the very early beginning of Stone
Sapiens goes back to about 1.5 million
years ago when Homo ereecto which who
who also has become kind of famous by
now. Homo ereectos it's like the first
human that really gets shit done you
know. They
>> they get moving.
>> Yeah. They move. Yeah.
>> And why were they moving?
>> Why were they moving? I mean then you
can examine exactly where they
originated which was I mean it's also
disputed by now that it's the great rift
valley that only the most fossils have
been found there but that doesn't mean
that they originated there. Maybe they
originated in the uh central African
rainforest where fossils disintegrate
and only there in the rift valley we
still find it. So uh but we know for
sure that in the great rift valley uh
there was a plant called cut which is
like a a plant speed. So they were using
that. It's still being used now in these
countries in Ethiopia, Yemen around the
horn of Africa. Cut is is is very normal
to use. You chew the leaves and it gives
you like it's like an amphetamine. It's
a plant amphetamine basically. Uh so
Homocto you can there's no proof that
they actually used it but they were
living in that area and the plant was
there. So you can you can write about
that. Yeah. So it's interesting because
they they were able to do certain things
like they shed the fur.
>> They were the first ones to have to
suddenly be naked and that has the
effect that sweat glands are produced.
Homotos could sweat it out basically
when they when they when they were very
hot. Mhm.
>> what animals couldn't do because they
had the fur. So an antelope can run
faster as a homo erectus. But at a at
like after 10 minutes the antelope has
to like stop like what dogs do like they
the tongue goes out. And humans didn't
have to do that because they were
sweating. So they could they developed
the jog jogging mode basically. So they
were jogging. They were not sprinting to
get the animal. They were jogging it.
And when the animal couldn't do it had
to rest, then the humans would come and
hunt it down. So homocttous was uh a
very was evolutionary very good. And
then later that one of the species
coming out of Homoto is homo sapiens.
>> And homo sapiens at one point there were
only like about 1,500 people left. There
were not a lot of homo sapiens. There
was a point in time when there were
quite a few of them. And the problem
became inbreeding and there was a real
danger of extinction. They were
vulnerable you know they were not on top
of the food chain yet. So they had to
develop consciousness. Consciousness is
what save what basically saved us from
extinction. Without the human
consciousness we wouldn't be here. You
know that is what made us in the end
then superior to to the other animals.
So how did this happen? You can kind of
trace how they moved. You can trace that
they went through the central African
rainforest and there's one plant there
which elephants like and that's ibogga
and iboga now is like the hot thing of
the psychedelic renaissance. Iboga iboga
iboga but it's also the oldest drug in
the book. Basically they saw that
elephants were eating ibogga
the root and the leaves and suddenly we
were like walking backwards and we
behaving in an unusual way and then
people were also using this and this was
going on over like a 100,000 years in
the rainforest.
So you can you can write a story about
that you know did was it maybe a boa of
course you can't prove it you know maybe
the frontal cortex grew by itself you
know that's a really compelling story
that's one of the great mysteries of how
did the light turn on
>> the the magic of human cognition and
consciousness and the the
>> the like sapiens by Harari which is a
great book he also misses that like at
when when he comes to those moments he
writes like we don't understand how the
first cognitive revolution and the
second cognitive revolution actually
happened. So I find it interesting to
kind of look could have could it have
been drugs like I include like
everything he he leaves out I I I look
at thoroughly
he does a good explanation of
interesting consequences
you know our ability to imagine ideas
and share them and uh you know
collaborate on them and the imagination
all that kind of stuff but the why the
transitions of why did it happen there's
he doesn't provide Right. I mean,
there's some theories, but if a bogga is
one of them, that's a compelling one.
That's a really compelling one.
>> Yeah. I mean, I'm still researching this
book and writing it, I also want to go
there because they still take ibogga in
the in in in Gabon, for example. I also
um
uh interviewed one of the leading Ebola
experts at Columbia University and um
for Stone Sapiens and he described how
ibogga works in the brain because that's
and he's never taken iboga himself.
>> Oh, interesting.
>> He just relies on the data. He doesn't
want to be personally influenced, but he
he said he will take it at a certain
point in time, but right now he's still
just working on data just on with
patience, you know. And what he found
and also examining in the brain through
brain scanners what actually happens and
like classic psychedelics like LSD or
psilocybin they dock at certain points
they interact with certain receptors
it's quite well understood how they work
and he said eboga is completely
different it's like and he also showed
this with his hands because he's so
mesmerized by his own findings like it
kind of it's kind of everywhere at the
same time in the brain like he say like
a spa for the neurons basically ally
like the it's it's it is his findings
show and these are academic findings at
Colombia
that it's like as if he says he said to
me as if I bogg our brain from a long
time like it knows exactly like if
you're addicted to something
or if you're depressed a depression
literally is a depression in the
neuronal network. Depression is a
thought loop for example or you know a
system of thought loops that you that
I'm not worthy I'm not whatever I can't
do it I you always go back like this is
it really kind of depresses your brain
in a way and the boa sees this
immediately and kind of takes the
depression out and and and and makes
your brain basically well again. Uh so
that this is this is what he this is
what his findings are. So it seem he
says he's totally convinced this is like
a he doesn't call it um a plant he calls
it like a neuro technology of the 22nd
century. So really seems to be uh in a
different kind of category.
That's why I really feel that stone
sapiens must be written because there's
so much uh
that historians just shied away from.
And um it all it all started when I was
on the island of Cree, the biggest
island of Greece. Cree for that's
another like Harari moment. Uh on Creed
was the first what is called high
culture of Europe. The Minoan culture.
You might have heard of the Minoan
culture and no one can explain
so far
why there on on Creed suddenly in Europe
they started making
amazing structures and amazing art and
how did it happen there that this like
totally backwards place Creed became I
mean backwards as any other place you
know why did it happen there that such
intricate objects were being made and
that the the culture was uh was
developing so intensely and I was kind
of thinking about that. That's how the
book started. I was with my uh kids on
vacation in Creed
and if you go to like Kosus or Festos
the big archaeological sites or to the
museum in Heavon you don't find an
answer why did it happen there and then
I found like an old book in a in an old
bookshop and it described an excavation
site at the sea and that it was like
maybe a maritime
uh place where like a harbor basically.
And then while I was swimming there, I
found on the sea floor the remnants of a
wall that was a harbor wall that was out
that was breaking the waves. And then I
climbed over the fence because the arch
archaeological site uh is still fenced
off like it's not explained officially
what it is. And the the walls in there
are the biggest walls of the whole
bronze era. And it was actually quite a
big harbor. And then the next step is
what did they trade? And they traded
olive oil because Creed was the first
place to produce olive oil. And then I
also found and this is historically
documented. Opium was made in Creed and
the poppy flower was growing there and
this was the harbor. Basically they
became incredibly wealthy through olive
oil and opium trade through that harbor.
So you could say that the whole of the
European high culture which you know
goes from Minoa it goes to Athens. So it
all started basically with with you know
they were drug dealers in a way or they
I mean it was the most potent medicine
because it was the only medicine that
numbs the pain uh
for sure you know opium works and the
minowans uh developed that so I mean
it's kind of it's a bit similar to the
blitz experience you the more I start I
did research the more I found
>> that there's this whole component
component to human history that could be
a really critical component.
>> I mean I am really interested about the
or there are certain leaps like the the
origins of human civilization and then
the origins of homo sapiens.
Those are really big leaps.
>> I mean there's some evidence you know
like they came through the area where
was but it's there's no academic proof.
So I guess an academically trained
historian couldn't really write about
that.
Um, but I can write about it. I can I
can I can write about possibilities.
>> Yeah. Sometime I mean that's what the
the farther into history you go, the
more it's about writing the
possibilities.
I mean it's also interesting. Why did
the Nandals die out and what we can
compare is the cave art and the cave art
of the Nandals is much simpler than
ours. Like if you really get into the
cave art, I don't know if you've done
that.
>> No. No.
>> It's quite fascinating. Picasso looked
at some of the cave paintings in
southern France and he said, "We didn't
learn anything new." And if you study
them, they're really good, but only the
humans are good. The Neandatals,
they were like worse artists than us.
And um you can also see there's a fa
very famous one that comes from Alier
with like a shaman and around his body
like mushrooms grow out of his body. So
he was like a mushroom shaman. So
mushrooms seem to have been like part at
least in that area. And I mean that's
the stoned ape theory that uh that that
Terrence McKenna did. And I think I a
lot of evidence kind of points to it
that we were able to develop our
consciousness
in a better way than the Neanderals who
did not have a drug culture. They were
basically too sober for the future. They
we assimilated them. They had no chance
against our
impetus of boldly going where no one has
gone before. They were much more like
happy with what they had. they were not
progressing all the time like we have
the transcendental kind of moment which
uh which is you know the psychedelic
exper is psychedelic experience I guess
you could think of it without it but to
imagine sapiens
makes more sense to imagine sapiens as
stone sapiens as as a species that was
able to incorporate psychoactive
components into his development. It it
it makes a lot of sense. What about one
of the great if you could think of it
that way technologies that human have
developed is religion. Religion of all
different kinds. Do you think there's a
connection
between psychedelics and religion? The
development of religion throughout
different parts of the world. Well, I
think Moses is quite interesting. Um,
Moses was
a traumatized
man that had fled Egypt where he had
killed a per killed a man who had been
uh beating up a Hebrew. So Moses kind of
took revenge and killed him. So he was
running from the law and he was
together with um in the Bible it says I
think 66 people they were in the desert
in the in the Sinai and they had been
fasting for days and no alcohol. So it
was kind of a psychedelic retreat
basically. I mean this is being examined
uh by Isra Israeli scholars and I think
it's very interesting work like they
examine in detail
what does the Bible say and the Bible
mentions in that passage where Moses has
sees the burning bush and then gets the
ten commandments in that Bible passage
there's a lot of uh several times the
acacia is mentioned and the acacia the
the the Egyptian acacia grows right in
the in in that Sinai uh area and it
contains DMT.
Um, so there's uh there there's this
Israeli research that Moses was actually
having a trip basically. He he was
seeing he had he was hallucinating the
burning bush was you know if you take
LSD and you look at a bush in the heat
you know it it it it will move you know
it it might resemble like uh a burning
and you you know experience. Then he
went up the mountain which takes 3 hours
while the other the others were staying
down. And with a DMT type of experience,
it's not that everyone in the group has
the same experience. Similar to Ayawaska
sometimes like one guy has like
incredible experience while another
person might not feel that much at all
and Moses felt a lot and you do feel a
lot when you you know when you are when
you have something to work through and
he had certainly something to work
through the trauma of killing a man. So
it's also no surprise that he receives
one of the commandments you you should
not kill, you know. So for him it's like
extremely
important and uh what he receives on
this on the mountain like God is like
there's someone speaking to me and he
understands that God is not that there's
not many gods just one God like he has a
revelation you know and it I think it
when I when I read you know these
examinations uh by these scholars I
think it makes a lot of sense to to
imagine that the Jewish religion comes
from Moses trip and also if you look at
the Jewish religion they are quite open
to drugs. I don't know if that you that
could be an unconscious reaction to that
to that to that kind of trippy beginning
like they have purim where it's like
you're supposed to get intoxicated to
get closer to God. Um they're not as
straight laced as the Christians like
they were just you know they just allow
alcohol. It's like the blood of Christ.
So also stone sapiens is a book about
religion. Also the the the Islam and
intoxication is also a very interesting
topic because you have the Sufis who
intoxicate themselves to get into
ecstasy to to be closer to God and then
you have like the conservative Islamist
scholar Iben Tamia who uh defended
Damascus against the Mongols by
combining anti-drug rhetoric like
they're bringing drugs to us and they
are not good Muslims. So it's um it
drugs and religion sometimes drugs kind
of uh help religion to like are used in
religious contexts but then you can also
see that religions work as
prohibitionist uh movements against
drugs like the Christian church. Uh also
the purity law for example it's very
famous in Germany it's called the
reinhes
beer can only contain three things water
hops and barley or something like that's
that's the purity law and
>> that was done by the church in 16th
century
and in Germany for a long time this was
seen as like this is like a quality
control like beer has to be pure only
has these ingredients but it's actually
a move by the church to weed out all the
other ingredients that had been put in
beer before like nightshade plants. Um
so beer also witches were brewing crazy
beer. You drink it and you have like
visions and you dance around the fire.
It's like and the church didn't like
this. So the church said this is the
beer now. And and especially the hops
was the was the new ingredient for the
beer. And this was so the purity laws is
the first prohibitionist law in in in in
in the middle ages in Europe.
Another fascinating. Yeah. I I think as
society becomes develops more and more
it seems to resist
certainly psychedelics
seems to resist drugs.
I don't know what that's about.
One of the very fascinating
turning points that I have been able to
kind of
uh pinpoint or at least I think this is
what happened is uh when do the first
kings come up
they weren't kings for a very long time.
The first king that I can identify was
in the so-called Sumerian high culture
was in Uruk was Gilgamesh. And they
wrote the Gilgamesh
epic about, you know, the great king.
But that was uh four or 5,000 years ago,
something like that. But what happened
in the thousands of years before,
there's no source that there were
rulers. It seems like humans were quite
good in organizing themselves without
kings before these first kings came. And
I mean thousands of years from the end
of the ice age until the Sumerian high
culture there were no kings. So people
were quite able to organize their
communities. There was for example
katalyuk in eastern Turkey
>> that was working for like 2,000 years
without any hierarchies. I think that is
that is quite interesting. And then why
do suddenly the hierarchy start and what
makes the hierarchy stronger?
And again I'm still researching this but
in Sumeriia we can see that it's the
beer that destroys the hierarchy free
society because they sudden they are
able I mean beer is quite old. The first
beer was made in Gbecite
the famous first kind of structure of
mankind. I also write about that because
it's very interesting small detour. What
is gbeck? No one knows. How did they
make it? No one knows. But they made it.
But why did they make it? I think they
made it because they were creating a
meeting place. And why was that so
important? There were not so many humans
at the time. There were like 1 to 4
million. Those are the estimates on the
whole planet. And they were usually
living in small communities of like a
100 people up to 500, not more. But in
so the problem then is again inbreeding.
Inbreeding means
it's a degeneration.
So it's it's it's a problem.
We we are genetically not so diverse
actually as humans. So and but golete
people were meeting from different areas
having sex with people they usually
wouldn't see creating healthy children
>> and golete was working for 1,600 years.
And I think it was like an evolutionary
>> kind of machine like without without
that idea we're going to create like a
fucking place or party place, you know,
it was a party basically.
>> They were eating very well. They found a
lot of bones, but no one lived there.
They just came together there for
parties.
>> And then after 800 years, they start
making beer there. And then the
situation slightly changes. Uh they
found these beer uh these places where
they made beer. you can still find the
chemicals and kind of it's it's sure
that they made beer there and then once
they make beer they create different
stone circles and then
somehow it changes and uh we we can see
clearly how it changes in the Sumerian
high culture when beer beer then becomes
a business beer become is being done by
the by the priests by the ruling class
or ruling class emerges like monasteries
often brew beer. And that was also the
case uh in um uh in in the Sumerian high
culture, they make beer. They they they
labeled the beer like the the temple
that would make the beer. The beer would
be attributed to that temple. It would
be sold. So that temple kind of rises in
status, makes money. So that's how
hierarchies started up. So the hierarchy
which is the big problem right now that
we have these hierarchies that we have
these kings everywhere that kind of
steal our money uh or at least make it
very difficult for us as humans to
organize on an egalitarian planetary
scale which is our only chance for
survival if we at one point overcome the
hierarchies overcome the nation states
and create a planetary probably AI
assisted open-source AI assisted
planetary society and everyone has the
same political rights. There's no more
borders. There's a planetary minimum
income. So, no one is starving. Everyone
has at least what everyone needs, which
is totally possible. It's just a it's
just a problem of organizing and of
breaking the resistance of those who
don't like that. And there's a lot of
resistance obviously. I mean, I'm
talking about what's happening on the
planet in 50 years, not what's going to
happen tomorrow. But that is where we
slowly are moving towards. And you can
see that this actually comes from you
know a a time when we were able to
organize ourselves without kings. We
don't we don't need kings. Kings always
say if you don't have me then someone
else some other guy will come and but
you know it's it's it's this that's why
I I mean that's why I'm not you know if
a nation state makes war against another
nation state I'm not taking a position
and saying this country is like better.
Basically the the both nation states are
doing war and who has to suffer is us
you know is stone sapiens is the human
is the human species. Speaking of which
I have to ask you so I I've done
psilocybin a bunch
and I've done IA
but have never done LSD
acid and you have quite a bit. So maybe
the big general question is what's LSD
like in the space of psychedelics which
funny enough we haven't really spoken a
lot about psychedelics except in the
context of stoned sapiens.
>> What's LSD like?
>> Well, this is probably the third book
that uh we want to talk about is is
tripped because tripped is an
examination of the history of LSD. And
that sounds maybe less interesting than
it actually is. It's it's I mean I I
find it fascinating. I had tried LSD. I
it was given to me by my girlfriend at
the time
Ana
in lower Manhattan on a Saturday night
1993.
So I was like 23.
>> And she said, "Let's take LSD." And I
had never really taken any drug. Like I
maybe smoked a bit of weed, but um I
didn't know what a strong drug is. And
she gave me this paper and um I took it
and we walked around in the East
Village, pre-gentrified East Village.
It's pretty cool actually. And it didn't
work for like 1 hour. I felt nothing.
And then I went into the toilet. I had a
falafel or something. I think I went
into the toilet and there was a mirror
like I was peeing and then there was
this mirror and but the walls had like
lines like they were painted in line
suddenly these lines were started to
like vibrate and that's then the trip
started and it was such an impowerful
experience uh that I thought I would go
insane like it was the worst trip I've
ever had like it was because so strong I
was toally scared. I didn't know what it
was. I suddenly I I walked I I I said I
said to my girlfriend, "It's it's
working." And she said, "Yes, it's
working. I feel it also."
>> And I went into Noel Motel, which was my
favorite bar, just to be in a familiar
environment. It's not a good idea on
your first very strong LSD trip to be
out in lower Manhattan on a Saturday
night. But I also didn't know this,
>> you know. So, I was in the bar and I saw
my friend Dora Espinosa from Peru. She
was quite a
a small woman like she was only like uh
I don't know the American system like
maybe 1 m 50. So she was quite short.
Short is the right word. But on LSD she
was like this. So I saw her down there
like
>> and I said Dora
do I look normal because you look very
small.
>> Yeah.
>> And Dora's like no you look fine. I'm
like okay I I got to get out of here.
And then we walked up to Second Avenue
and we saw like a bunch of Puerto Rican
kids
killing one of their it was like a gang
kind of it was more of a druggy kind of
I mean Manhattan back then was kind of
dangerous in the East Village and one of
they killed one of them on the hood of
the car in front of our eyes. We saw it
and I said, "Do you see this?" Like my
god. And then the and then they
resurrected him like they gave him mouth
to mouth and the guy was fine again and
we walked past and we we were not sure
anymore what what we were seeing. And
this was this was a very strong
hallucination. And then we saw a
full-blown racial riot on Second Avenue.
Like people were smashing in uh taxi
windows pulling the drivers out like
getting like it was like a GTA
>> Grand Theft Auto. Yeah.
>> Right. It was like that. And uh
>> so most of this is basically
hallucinating
>> I think. So yeah and I have t
>> but it felt real.
>> It felt totally real and uh so I was
happy when this trip was over because I
thought I have gone insane basically. I
thought like there was a switch in my
brain that had been like
something chem like I have I have now in
chemical imbalance in my brain. I'm
going to be crazy for the rest of my
life. I thought that but after like 10
hours it suddenly got the effects wore
off and I became normal again and I
thought that was quite fascinating. So
in hindsight I thought it was a great
experience even though it was quite
scary but it also had moments of
incredible
perceptions like I could see that the
atoms are not you know rigid obviously
everything is moving in our universe
everything there's nothing fixed you
know so I could see that I could see
that that that everything was basically
alive and that my previous perceptions
how the world is It's just my
conditioned perception and that the word
was very different and you know just how
you look at it. It looks different and
so it was freeing in a way.
>> Yeah, totally freeing. Also, it was much
stronger than all the LSD I've taken
since and I've taken high dosages. So,
I'm not even sure if that was LSD. Like
there's also other com compounds that
are quite rare like DOM or whatever.
Maybe it was something else. But then I
also spoke to um uh LSD experts by now
also for the book tripped and it can
happen that your first trip is much
stronger than all the other trips
because your brain is kind of reacts
very strongly to it because what happens
in the brain is basically that the
default mode network receives less
energy and other parts of the brain
there think more communicate better. So
if this happens for the first time like
your brain maybe is totally surprised by
this like firework that's going on and
then creates like hallucinations to
somehow make sense of it like there's a
lot of things firing and then so you see
things that maybe are not there but
that's not usual on an LSD trip like you
don't have I've never had such
hallucinations afterwards again you know
>> what's the usual experience uh on LSD
>> it really depends on the dosage if you
micro dose uh it's just like drinking an
espresso that lasts maybe for 2 three
hours in a very pleasant way. So you're
just slightly buzzed.
Is it visual artifacts like
>> no color?
>> Then you would take like more maybe if
you take 50 micrograms you start the
colors become more intense. But if you
take a micro dose of 10 micrograms
nothing happens. The trip starts with
about 100 micrograms and then you could
see maybe it would be like I took I I
took a swimming trip in Thailand uh in
January and I took about 200 micrograms
which is quite a lot. I just because it
was so beautiful on this island and it
was kind of will it be more beautiful if
I'm on LSD now and of course every LSD
trip also
tells you about your life like some
things you didn't understand suddenly
you see like oh it's like this like you
it's very good for you know reflecting
on your life but it's also a lot of fun
so I swam for like 3 hours through the
ocean which is something you usually
don't do you know I like swimming but
after like 10 minutes or 20 minutes I go
out but I was swimming and swimming and
uh so
>> yeah for me on the psilocybin and IA
there's a intensifification
of beauty of the world around you
whether that's nature whether that's
people or whether that's your own
memories of your past or maybe uh your
imagination manifesting itself in
different kinds of visuals uh you know
on Iawaska I saw dragons of different
kinds and they were just really
beautiful. Um,
and maybe I've never taken like a heroic
dose of psilocybin, but it was always
everything was just always so beautiful
and I was just grateful to be alive and
grateful to be in this world and get to
appreciate in in this most intense way.
There's something about like like you
you said you could see the individual
atoms like there's certain ways to
deconstruct or maybe visualize or
reinterpret revisualize the world that
makes you like appreciate holy shit this
is really this is really awesome. This
is really special. And that can only be
done through the process of like
showing you like a different version of
it a little bit.
I mean when the Swiss pharmaceutical
company Sandos developed LSD in 1943
like they were having the
to solve the big question what is it
good for? like
>> Albert Hoffman a chemist he found it
basically unvoluntarily
>> and uh he reported to the CEO I had very
strong reactions basically in the brain
so they set up an uh intoxication room I
found the documents about this
intoxication room in the Novatis archive
when I researched tripped uh because
Novatist bought Sundos in the '9s so all
the LSD stuff is in the Novatis archive
and um this intoxic ation room. I always
think it's kind of interesting to
imagine this was 1943. There's a world
war going on everywhere in Europe except
in Switzerland which is a neutral
country but Basel where the LSD was
found is like a stone throw from the
German border. So you actually hear the
war going on and um so they created a
nice room within the company and then
all the employees voluntarily could go
and take LSD. So they they were the
first people to take LSD and they had no
idea that there was at one point, you
know, MK Ultra and you know they they
were just trying out something that one
of their guys had developed and I read
through all these reports and they all
had a great experience. They was like
sitting in a nice chair and they looked
outside the window and they were like
reporting stuff like I just had to laugh
the whole time. I felt so good. I
realized about my life and or yeah it it
kind of created in them the feeling like
a heightened sens sensitivity
and a feeling of that this is the life
this is how life should feel kind of so
the CEO Atra he was really trying to
figure out what he could market it for
because he thought maybe this is a
gamecher in mental health because this
was before anti-depressants before
antiscychotics and it was in the middle
of uh World War II which had created
already millions of traumatized people.
How do you treat these people? So they
thought LSD could be really a big a big
big big thing. And uh I mean I I came up
I just told you when I first took LSD
and I somehow was interested in LSD but
I never thought I would write a book
about it. I just used it once in a while
when I wanted to understand something
about my life or just enjoy a day in the
in the ocean. Uh but um I read a study
that micro doses of LSD at one point
help against Alzheimer and my mother has
Alzheimer's. So I discussed this with my
father who takes care of my mother and
this was an academic study. I I I
discussed this also with an leading
Alzheimer expert that I interviewed for
Tripped and he's like, "Wow, this is
amazing." Like because LSD interacts
with the very same receptors, the five
HT2A
receptors in the brain that LSD
interacts with those receptors and
Alzheimer destroys those receptors. So
LSD basically does the opposite that
Alzheimer does. And uh I discussed this
with my father and he said, "So why
can't I buy LSD in the pharmacy if it's
so good?" You know, he was a judge
before. He actually put people in prison
for drugs.
>> So he said, "You better bring me the
story." So I did the kind of a research
loop. This is the book tripped.
>> Yeah.
>> Then I came back to him in the end with
the true story of why LSD has been made
illegal. And that is quite that is quite
fascinating because the Swiss CEO
he had learned biochemistry. This is
very nerdy but I think it's quite
interesting. He had learned biochemistry
from the Jewish German god of
biochemistry. Vilcheta Rishad Vilteta
was Nobel Prize winner for chemistry and
his work was he would extract the potent
alkaloids from so-called poisonous
plants and make you know the poison part
taught us it's the dosage that makes the
poison. You know if you take too much of
a potent alkalide maybe it's a poison
but if you if you extract a potent
alkaloid maybe you can turn it into a
medicine. So learned this from Viltetta
and there was another guy that was
learning from Vilta Rishad Coon. So it
was Coon and Stol those were the two
students of Viltetta and they stole left
and made became the CEO of Sandos and
developed the the pharmaceutical branch
of Sandos and Coon became Hitler's
leading uh biochemist and was
responsible in finding a truth drug and
also developing nerve gas. So, but the
two guys Coon and Stol stayed friends
also when the Nazis took power. Like I
researched um the papers of Stol in the
archive and in the 20s he would all
communicate all the Urgot research. LSD
is an urgot product. Urgot is a fungus
that grows on rye. He would communicate
all this with Coon and Coon would come
to the Sundos lab and they did
experiments together. And then in 43,
Coon was, you know, a hardcore Nazi
scientist and especially looking for the
truth drug at the time. And I was
looking through the archive. I wanted to
find the connection that you know also
uh
sent uh LSD to Coon because when I was
researching for Blitz in Dhau, I had
found that the SS had done in the
concentration camp of Dhau experiments
with measculine and another hosogenic
substance which was not named and
measculine has the problem. The truth
talk idea is I give you something
without you noticing it. Like something
that doesn't smell or doesn't taste like
anything and then after like half an
hour I know that something's working in
your brain and you become insecure
because suddenly something's working in
your brain and I can play with that
situation and therefore extract all the
secrets from you because I it's a power.
I'm suddenly above you because I know
something about you that you don't know.
That was the idea. The problem with
masculine was it has a bitter taste.
And it's kind of hard to make it. And
LSD is very easy to make. Not very easy,
but it's quite easy. And LSD is odless
and tasteless. So I was trying to I I
somehow had the notion that LSD has a
Nazi past, you know, which is something
that no one ever thinks about. LSD is
like the hippie drug, right? It's a drug
of the peace people. But I wanted to see
all the papers of this of the CEO of
Stole and the archist. he already knew
like he was the Swiss archivist and this
is not a public archive in a public
archive you basically like a national
archive of the United States you see
what's there you have the right to see
it freedom of information but a company
archive like Novartis archive the
archist can just say no you know I'm I I
can't find this right you know he you
basically
at his mercy so I bribed him with LSD I
because he didn't want to show me he
didn't want to show me the toilet papers
and I said to
just to distract him. I said, "Did you
ever have you ever seen LSD?" And he's
like, "No. How would I see it?" And I
said, "Well, I have some here." And I
had some. I just had gotten it from a
friend.
>> What does LSD look like? Tabs.
>> Yeah. Tab. I had a paper.
And the funny thing about Yeah. These
are different, you know, different
designs.
>> And you can put it on your tongue. Is
that people usually take it?
>> Yeah. Then you take it like that. And
the one I had was given to me by a Swiss
friend and it had like here you see
certain prints on it. Uh oh yeah.
>> And he had the the print was the old
logo of Sundos from the 40s. So the guys
who make this illegal LSD in Basa in
some kind of lab. They know where it
comes from. So they made like a joke to
make like the old logo of Sundos. So I
showed this to the archist. They said
this is the old logo of our company.
Said well it was made by your company. I
know this, but it was it's not this is
very interesting actually. And I said,
you I'm going to I'm going to I'm going
to gift you one of these trips now. And
he said, "Wow, you really you would do
this." And I said, "You can archive it."
He's like, "Haha." Then he actually took
one. He was then the ice broke.
>> That's great.
>> And then he said, "Okay, I'm going to
show you now the correspondence of our
CEO. It's no problem." and he just went
to the next room and he looked for like
10 minutes and then he brought me these
boxes and then I saw actually the
correspondence between stolen coon
between the Swiss CEO and the German
Nazi scientist what they were talking
about and then I found the smoking gun
uh October 1943
Coon acknowledges that he receives half
a gram of erotamine which is the
precursor drug to LSD and so it's highly
it's highly likely that uh the Nazis
used LSD together with masculine in Dao
and when the Americans
liberated the DAO camp um they had a
special unit called ALS with them and
Also's job was to find German scientists
and kind of interview them get their
knowledge for the nuclear program mostly
but also for biochemical weapons and one
of the first persons they interrogated
was Rishad Kun and Rishadkun immediately
collaborated because he didn't want to
go to the Nuremberg trial Well, he
wanted to continue his career. Actually,
he was an opportunist. So, I guess his
Nazi convictions were not so strong
after all because he also liked the
Americans. So he's like he told the
Americans immediately about LSD and uh
the next day a very high general flew
from the states uh to Frankfurt went to
H Highleberg spoke to Coon again went
then took off his uniform and went in
civil clothing to Basel because
Switzerland is neutral and received the
first LSD from Stolang. So he the
American general had LSD. This was in 45
in the summer. And then the American
military started to uh examine LSD.
Could LSD be the true drug? Because if
the Nazis think so, maybe it's true, you
know, because the Nazis were, you know,
cutting edge scientists as evil as they
were
>> in Dhaka. This was presumably used for
the different experimentation that was
done. Well, I read one report from a guy
who was an inmate and he received it in
coffee and he had a full-blown
psychedelic trip and he had this SS guy
who was like asking him questions and
and the guy had such a great trip.
>> Yeah. I would always imagine you have a
terrible trip in the concentration camp.
And he was like seeing fractals and
colors and he could see that there was
something bigger than these Nazis and
there was something bigger than the
concentration camp and he only said it
was so horrible when the trip ended and
he kind of became sober again. It was
just an inmate again in the
concentration camp. I mean one of the
things you get from books like man
search for me meaning by Victor Franco
is that in the concentration camp
actually the slightest good things are
so rich of
feeling you just get so like I would
actually expect to have incredible trips
there because you're just grateful for
anything positive anything positive
>> yeah I didn't I didn't think about that
>> becomes intensified but from the
perspective of the Nazis they're trying
to develop the truth drug.
>> They miserably failed because LSD is not
the truth drug. LSD maybe leads you
closer to your own truth because when
suddenly the default mode network
receives less energy and other parts of
the brain think more and the brain
becomes a neuropl you know the
neuroplasticity of the brain is is
enhanced and is stimulated.
You might understand something about
your life. You might not you know I mean
LSD doesn't necessarily turn you into a
more knowledgeable person. You could
also focus that on your orthodox belief
system, but many people realize
different things, have different ideas.
Um, so it doesn't work as this
conditioning drug, but also the the CIA
uh then kind of took over the LSD
experiments that the US military took
over from the SS. So now it's now it's
in CIA hands in 1947. Central
intelligence agencies founded because
America didn't have an Central
intelligence agency before. They had
like the military agencies like OSS. Now
they have the CIA and the CIA makes it
uh Dallas uh the first director. He says
the brain warfare is going on now
between the Soviet Union and us. This is
cold war. We have to you know maybe they
are using uh something against us. we
have to be really on our you know we
have to be prepared you know for the
brain warfare cuz communism is a
propagandistic system. So they were
always like either really afraid or just
pretending to be afraid Soviet Union
would you know develop the truth drug
quicker than them. So the LSD
truth drug program which was labeled MK
Ultra the infamous MK MK Ultra is a mind
control program. I mean it it is and LSD
played a big part in it. And it's a
deeply illegal one.
>> Certainly. Yeah. I mean, it was never
never approved by the Congress or
anything like that.
>> Probably deeply unethical. Maybe one of
the more unamerican unethical things
done in in recent times.
>> It's certainly unethical. It continues
the Nazi human experiments. That's what
the CIA did.
>> It's continuing one of the worst aspects
of what the Nazis were doing.
>> Absolutely. Yeah. defeated the Nazis and
carried the flag forward. It's It's just
dark. And this is basically the reason
why LSD at one point became illegal
because it did not get the chance. Stole
still wanted to put it on the market,
but Sydney Godly, the head of MK Ultra,
he really didn't want LSD to be on the
market. He wanted not because he thought
it's not good or dangerous for anybody.
He just wanted to control LSD. He wanted
LSD to be his so he could use it for MK
Ultra for experiments. He didn't but he
couldn't really stop. There was also
legit LSD research always going on in
until it was prohibited in 1966. There
was legit LSD research done in
universities which came to all kinds of
you know conclusions. But the decisive
thing was a visit by godly in the uh
office of in Basel where he basically
says to he comes with a suitcase with
$240,000 US to buy the world supply of
LSD and uh because he he he has the
information from the American ambassador
like he has he said like I think we
think by now Sundos has produced like
400 kg of LS USD. So that was the price
for these for and said no actually we
have produced only 400 g
and uh but I I I'll sell everything to
you of course I mean because the
pressure that he received from the CIA
was because the CIA and the FDA they're
like quite friendly organizations.
So the CIA has a certain influence on
the FDA at least back then you know so
the the pressure was if you want to put
your medicines on the market which is of
course the biggest market in the world
and Sundos you know I'm sure you want to
thrive and as a pharmaceutical company
then LSD is not going to be one of these
products and basically betrayed LSD.
Uh so he said okay and LSD was only
distributed as a research drug. it was
never sold by the company. So
researchers could actually write to
Sundus and say I I'm doing this and this
uh test and I'm new neuroscientist. I
need LSD and then they would receive it.
But um mostly what happened to the LSD
was it went into the CIA's hands and
then it was used in MK Ultra. But then
it spilled out obviously because one of
the guinea pigs uh was Ken Kesi. He
received $75 US for taking LSD for the
CIA and he was working in Menlo Park in
a psychiatric ward and on LSD he
basically had the idea to ride one flu
over the cuckoo's nest. He understood,
you know, that these people maybe are
not crazy. It's just a different way of
see that's like that's like an LSD
revelation. These are not bad crazy
people. They just see the world
differently. Uh because that
neuroplasticity that kind of leads you
away from one way of thinking. you
realize that there's different ways. So
it it does I would say LSD the tendency
of LSD is more
to increase empathy is that kind of
>> empathy diversity all these all all
these
>> kind because you mentioned u you
mentioned the effect of LSD on you as a
writer that it at least changed the way
you write. Well, I mean the book tripped
is a book where I come back with that
story to my father and then my father
decides to give LSD to my mother and we
did do the LSD the three of us on
Christmas
and uh we did mushrooms on Mother's Day
and whenever my mother takes LSD and she
Alzheimer is a is a horrible disease
obviously for example on Mother's Day
there was the newspaper lying on the
balcony we were like sitting in the sun
and
she was on mushrooms just micro do you
know It's not that you have a trip, but
you have that stimulation of the of of
your brain. That's what you have. Even
and her brain attacked by Alzheimer
reacted stronger than my father. Like he
he always says, "I never feel anything
from a micro dose." And you're not
supposed to feel anything, but my mother
suddenly picked up the newspaper, which
she hadn't looked at for a year. So on
mushroom micro doses, she picks up the
newspaper and starts reading the
headline to us, which was about the
Ukraine war. and she'd never heard about
the Ukraine war. So when she like she
had problems like pronouncing the word
Ukraine because that was a new word for
her because she hadn't you know been
part of the news cycle in about a year
and this was because of the mushroom
micro dose. So this book, how did it
change my writing? This
on a on a on an emotional level,
writing,
taking LSD and then writing about LSD
changed something in my family. Like it
improved the health of my mother that
made me very
uh happy, of course, very satisfied, you
know.
>> Yeah, there's a deep personal
connection, but I I even mean on Ken
Keezy's side, like
>> I know what you mean.
I mean what does it do like p listen
writing I don't know again me as a fan
of writing it feels like writing is
suffering kind of when I see like just
these great writers in history talk
about writing it seems like it's really
hard it's a kind of torture you know
Hemingway and you know there you have
the carowak stories that you just kind
of flows out of you but a lot of times
it's like really disciplined day after
day. You're really digging and digging
and so it's interesting what that looks
like under the different supplements,
right? Like Stephen King famously, I
mean there's a lot of people, you know,
they go to the drugs to the alcohol. You
have the Hunter S. Thompson who goes,
you know, when given the option just
says yes to all of it. Um,
and the mind is a weird thing and and a
lot of writers talk about like they're
not really developing the ideas. They're
plugging into some they're channeling
a voice from somewhere else.
>> And with psychedelics that certainly it
feels like you're modifying the channel
>> or you're expanding the channel or
you're directing the channel to a
different direction. That's why I ask. I
think uh for me writing has two
important parts and one of them is the
actual writing part and that's the
painful part that you talk about.
>> It's basically discipline
focus. It becomes harder and harder to
focus because of the telephone.
>> Yeah. Distractions.
>> There's a place in Switzerland, the NE
house. I go there as much as I can to
write. It's in Sils Maria. It's quite
high up. NZ went there every summer from
1882 to 1888 with the exception of 1887.
Didn't go that that summer. I don't know
why. And in those he stayed there for
three months and wrote most of his work
in in that room and that room is still
there and his desk is still there and
you can rent rooms in that nature house
and I rent it's it's it's great and I do
this as often as I can and only there am
I able to switch off the phone in the
morning. I don't I don't even switch it
on. I I'm like a soldier. I'm in the ner
house. Also na is magical. So it gives
you you don't I I would never take drugs
in the nature house because it would
disturb that clarity that is in that
house
>> when nature wrote like
and uh
>> you can sense his presence a little bit.
>> Yeah, I speak to him quite a bit like
his door is always open.
>> Is he an asshole or a nice guy?
>> No, he's a nice guy.
>> Nice guy.
>> His room cannot be rented. It's always
it's like a museum type room. And um I
mean
I never thought of him as an asshole. I
mean he's a total weirdo obviously
>> had issue like struggled getting laid.
>> Yeah. I think he had a lot of problems.
>> That's one of them.
>> Yeah.
>> But he had a lot of good qualities too.
>> But he's also part of of Stone Sapiens
because he did experiment with drugs
there and he writes about it. It's very
hard to find, but in the niche house, I
found a book on on Nichzche's uh
medicine history and he he he takes
quite a bit of uh hashish. He smokes.
>> Is it to help with the stomach issues or
whatever?
>> Oh, he's interested in what happens in
the brain. And this this comes back to
your question. Uh how did the the drugs
change my writing? Um well, first of
all, it's this one. It's this
discipline. I can do it up in the nature
house. I can also do it sometimes in
Berlin. It's just sitting there trying
to focus and writing. But what you need,
of course, is the inspirational part.
And LSD helped me just the first trip to
realize that it's not all black and
white. The world's quite colorful and uh
there there's like the abyss and it's
there's also the horror and like I was I
was a happy golucky kid, you know. I I
never thought it the world is so deep as
I understand it now. So the LSD makes
the world deeper. So I think for me to
understand the world better, to
understand myself better, it improved my
writing, but I would not write on LSD.
>> Mhm.
>> Because on LSD you're like you want to
walk in the forest or you want to go up
the mountain or that's what I like. I
don't I would never like sit in front of
that ugly computer with a stupid like
screen and write, you know? Maybe I
would lie in the mountains with a a
notebook and kind of write like poetic
lines and I that could be done on LSD
because you have like when I was
researching stone sapiens I I did one
LSD trip in from the niche house I went
quite high up in the mountains on LSD
and I came and it was not had I just
it's just I just thought about the book
and kind of looked at the different
chapters does it work together like kind
of like macro without taking too many
notes, just kind of letting it, you
know, play out in front of in in my
mind. And then, but then when I walked
down, I ca I passed a cave.
>> Mhm.
>> And I realized a lot about people's
relationship to caves and the cave
paintings.
Uh how, you know, actually the the the
the cave walls, you see all the arteries
of the rocks. And I mean on LSD you see
all of that and you like see how alive
that is and how beautiful it actually
was by humans to then use that canvas
and and and and work your your cave
paintings in there. I mean I never had
the appreciation of that before.
>> Yeah, you're right. You are able to uh
detect the on on psychedelics the
aliveness of the details if you can put
it this way. It's a very for me it's a
very creative drug but for other people
it might not be you know so I cannot
also I cannot advertise it because also
if you have a psychological problem
maybe it's overwhelming. Yeah, that's
actually a good thing to say at this
moment. Um, like from my perspective and
maybe you can comment on it. In general,
when people ask me because I've done
psilocybin a few times and I've done
Iwasa and I've talked about it. When
people ask me if I recommend those
things, I as a general statement I say
no,
you know, to the general population. And
then as a second step, if I'm talking to
specific people on a case-by case basis,
I can just discuss my experience and let
that be kind of an inspiration is I'm
very hesitant to recommend a thing that
could be so powerful because I don't
know.
>> Yeah.
>> Like I had a tremendously positive
experience and I was sure I would be
meeting some demons. Like I thought I
would have some demons in the basement
or something but I didn't meet them. Not
yet. And but people might have some
demons that they meet and then it might
destroy them or it might um change them
in the way don't they don't like um and
actually it's a good question for me
whether it's good to do psychedelics
when you're in a good place in life or
in a bad place in life because I know
that you know even scientifically there
have been studies where psilocybin helps
with extreme sort of with depression and
PTSD and all these kinds of things. Um,
but I'd be very nervous about that too
because like the mind is such a powerful
thing and it's such a complicated thing
that with these really powerful tools,
it's unclear where it's going to take
you. But I have heard a lot of stories
of people have taken incredible
journeys, sometimes difficult journeys
with psychedelics and have come out much
happier and much um freer and have have
healed some of the things that we've
been going through. But if when people
ask me to recommend or not, I'm just too
afraid to say yes. I think I think the
right thing is always as a general no.
Be very careful. Yeah, I think it would
be irresponsible to recommend it to
people you don't see, right? You know,
>> yeah.
>> Uh maybe if you know a friend and a
friend asks you, maybe then you could
maybe I would say to a friend, yeah, I
think I think you would be fine taking
it. M
>> but even that is a big responsibility
you know because LSD in German the book
tripped is called the strongest
substance and it is actually the
strongest substance because it works in
microgram dosages
like even a the strongest snake poison
cobra toxine if you use that in micro
gram dosages you don't feel anything but
if you take 250 micrograms of LSD
it can totally overpower you and if you
have an instable psyche it could you
know make turn you mad you know
>> do you understand how it compares to
psilocybin and I was DMT how does LSD
compare to those is it similar land
territory just more intense
>> LSD and psilocybin are like cousins and
>> distant cousins or
>> no quite close cousins and I spoke to a
neuroscientist from a university clinic
in Zurich
who's been researching psilocybin and
LSD um since the early '9s and he puts
people in uh uh in brain scanners for
example. So he sees exactly what happens
um in the brain on LSD or in psilocybin
and he said to me uh when I asked him
that very same question he said LSD is
the more sophisticated molecule. he
meant by that is that LSD
docks onto more receptors than
psilocybin like psilocybin interacts
with like five recep different types of
receptors in the brain and LSD like with
nine. So that makes LSD more complex
molecule. So the that's why it already
works in very small quantities because
it's like the key is like perfect for
our brain. Our brain really reacts
strongly to LSD. For mush psilocybin you
have to take milligs not micrograms but
milligrams.
So mushrooms is also described as the
softer
you know psychedelic experience because
it only lasts for like five hours while
LSD last like eight hours and LSD can be
more
LSD is also a mushroom but it's uh it's
it's it's urgot which is a mushroom but
it's turned into a diia it's the you
extract the potent acid from uh urgot
which is lysurgic acid. it and you turn
that into a deaflamite.
So it's a processed drug in a way. It's
a potent processed drug that works also
for mass movements quite well. That's
why it was so popular in the 60s because
people could just make it. While
mushrooms, they kind of they have to
grow. Like the the hippie movement, they
could never have, you know, sustained on
mushrooms because so many mushrooms
don't even grow. But
a a good LSD chemist can make LSD for
the whole world basically. Can we go
back to something we talked about uh in
the in the beginning about Berlin
is just it'd be fascinating to learn
more about this culture. Do you still
are you still connected? I'm sure you've
been to some wild parties. I've been
told that Berlin has some wild parties.
>> Well, it had them in the '9s. I mean, it
had the best clubs that I I mean, it was
just a dream, you know. You go into this
club, but I was also in my mid20s. So, I
go into this club, I take MDMA,
and the DJ is amazing, and the sound
system is crazy, and there's like 500
people on MDMA just dancing for like 8
hours.
>> And that's when electronic music was
really
>> Yeah, it was really good.
>> Yeah.
>> Like a friend of mine, he he runs now
Club of Visionaries, which is kind of a
famous underground club in Berlin. And
he asked me in the early 2000s when this
club was offered to him, should I do
this? I said I said, Gregor, techno is
over. You know, electronic music is
dead, but obviously it's not dead. It's
still going on. But in the '9s, it was
new. So it was you really went into the
club and you heard something you never
heard before. And the first time I came
from New York and New York was a very
old school kind of urban place. I mean,
rock and roll or grunge music. And I
came to Berlin. It was uh in a club
called IMA Bucket in East Berlin.
Doesn't exist anymore. Like in a
rundown, totally rundown like uh squad.
Uh and I I went to the bar and I had a
beer. And I looked and there was just a
few people on the dance floor in this
like electronic music which I'd never
heard before. And the guy in front of
me, he was like he looked like an East
Berlin skin head kind of type of guy,
but like totally smiling. I'm sure he
was on ecstasy. and he was disassembling
like an imaginary machine. And I just
looked at this guy. He was like for one
hour he was just like doing the most
>> complicated like things and I was like
this is totally a totally different way
of of of moving and I liked that
actually. I I liked
>> to dance in clubs. Yeah. And I did this
for like two years very intensely with
my girlfriend at the time. We went out a
lot
uh like for Friday to Monday basically.
But it means and lot a lot of people
still do that in Berlin but it means
that you cannot really work. I mean
>> yeah you escaped that you it's it's it's
interesting that you were able to do
that for a short time just as an
experience and then go on to be
extremely productive.
>> For me it was also kind of research even
though I didn't know this.
>> I mean life is research in a way if you
allow it to be. I could not have written
these books on history and drugs without
having had these drug experiences
because that I mean also like when I
wrote about methamphetamine and the
Nazis, I asked at the time weed was
illegal in Germany. So I asked the
friend of mine, she's a she's a cannabis
dealer, I guess you would say. I said,
"Can you also get uh me crystal meth?"
She was like shocked like no. Cuz she
was a weed dealer. But then she found
like a Polish guy who actually had
crystal meth. I just wanted to have it.
It was like the Paul Shraider thing when
he wrote the screenplay to Taxi Driver.
He had like a gun in his drawer
>> so he would like, you know, get the vibe
of like danger. And so I wanted to have
this crystal math. So this Polish guy
sold it to me and he gave me a zero
without me saying anything. And maybe my
French maybe she said he's a writer or
something, but he gave me a Xerox. He
gave me the methamphetamine 1 gram and
the Xerox copy of uh the the patent of
Pavitine from 1938. So this was a
crystal meth dealer that actually had a
historical
>> Mhm. knowledge. Yeah.
>> Knowledge about it. So
>> did you did you ever try?
>> Yeah. Well then I tried it because I
really wanted I could not really
write about it in the same way without
having tried it. I can't recommend it.
It feels very toxic like when you take a
psychedelic. I can say this with a clear
conscience. It's not toxic. LSD is not
toxic. It doesn't poison you. You might
have reactions in your brain that are
too much for you. But if you snort
crystal meth, it goes on your central
nervous system. Your heart starts
pounding. Your blood pressure rises. So,
it's stressful on the organism. It's
toxic, you know. Uh but still, you know,
the effect in the brain is not so
interesting as with LSD. Like, you
couldn't go crazy, I would say, on on
crystal meth. you just have like you're
just very much awake but you don't have
like crazy thoughts that you can't you
know evaluate anymore. So it's a very
very very different drug but taking that
of course made me understand better how
a soldier feels in the tank taking it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really really
important to do. Um I have to ask your
friend Alex who's it sounds like he's
taken every single drug there is. Uh,
has he spoken about like what's the most
interesting drug? Like what's his
favorite drug? He he seems like a
connoisseur, right? But he's not a
psychedelic guy, so
>> Oh, well then okay.
>> More He's more into the addictive drugs.
>> It's very difficult, I guess.
Yeah, that would be a special person
that can be a really sort of um
yeah, a fullon
explorer of the drug space. Cuz if you
get into psychedelics, then you don't
really want to do the hard drugs. If you
get the hard drugs, you don't want to
>> Right. They contradict each other.
>> They do contradict each other. Yeah.
>> That's why we spend less and less time
together.
Um uh since you mentioned Carowak,
listen, I love Carowak. Do we know any
sort of famous writers that have used
drugs as part of the writing? So Carowak
is one.
>> Do we any Do we know any famous writers
who have not used drugs as part of their
writing?
>> Interesting. So wait, I didn't actually
know uh to be honest the story. I I love
>> That's the good thing about being a
writer. You can take drugs on the job
and no one will cancel you for it.
>> You're like a politician. You can't
really do it.
>> That's right. Rock. You can be a rock
star. You can be a writer.
>> You can be an artist and take drugs.
>> You mentioned that Kowak did what?
>> Amphetamine.
>> Speed. Basically speed.
>> The legend has it that on the road was
written in two weeks on speed basically
without sleeping and using an endless uh
>> paper roll in this typewriter. So he was
just writing. And I can imagine that you
can write a hell of a lot on
amphetamines. And I do it sometimes, but
I don't do it a lot, you know. So I can
take empetamines and have a really good
time and write like 20 pages, but then
the next day I wouldn't do it any I
wouldn't do it anymore. But he decided,
okay, for 14 days I'm going to do it.
Philip K. Dick was an amphetamine
writer. And also I think if you take a
lot of amphetamines you get into kind of
psychedelic spaces at a certain point in
time where you start hallucinating and
like if you write a you know blade
runner maybe it helps you. So
empetamines are also
they can be creative I guess. It's just
not I don't it's not my type of of drug
and they're certainly not as creative as
but it also depends on the person like
Malcolm Lori uh under the volcano. He
was drinking a lot or Hemingway was
drinking a lot and they could only write
when they're drunk. When I'm drunk I
can't write. I just can't do it.
>> Write drunk. edit sober
and that's advisable like if I would
write something on amphetamines I would
certainly edit it sober of course
because on amphetamines
your self-criticism is lowered because
you feel so good like you feel so
confident you just write and but writing
is about nuances especially literary
writing maybe a non-fiction book would
be easy on empetamines but a novel it's
all about you have to be very very
openetamines close You you become like a
machine like you write but if you are on
the right track like Kowak was on the
road he had the right you know he was on
he was going you know but you could also
be on the wrong one and then write 200
pages and you just have to throw it away
and probably he did a lot of that also
you know.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And and also on the road is
a particular kind of book.
>> It's an amphetamine book.
>> You want the spontaneity
the speed of
>> it's about speed. It's about moving
fast. It's about not stopping. It is a
speed book.
>> Yeah.
>> But it's a great book.
>> It's such a great book.
>> It's such a great book. But then I
recently been uh rereading all of the
Sioski. So So go to it. No. So in the to
the idiot to cry and punishment to
brothers Karazov and that I don't
>> which was your favorite
>> brothers Karazov. Well, I read in both
Russian and English and uh for the
longest time it was the idiot
>> until
it's a complicated philosophical issue.
I I when I was younger, I thought Prince
Mishkin, the main character and the
idiot,
was not
as flawed as I believe he is now. I
think Doses tried to create a Jesus-like
character in Prince Mishkin, right? and
I think kind of failed
because he was uh too giving in a way
that it was actually counterproductive
and destructive to the world which is he
tried to fix in the brothers karmaza
with alosha karmaz so but anyway I I
don't think that you could do that I'll
be very surprised to to learn that
dustfki did any drugs also there was not
so much available that's true alcohol of
course nicotine coffee that's that those
are pretty powerful drugs
>> and I'm also doing a podcast with Chuck
Pollock, author of Fight Club and many
other amazing books and
>> yeah, he's a great writer. He Fight Club
influenced me quite a bit. Uh I think
the novel is even better maybe than the
movie.
>> Yeah,
>> but the movie's great.
>> I mean, in that case, as he said, like
the movie is great and that it's almost
like a bigger than life thing. And
sometimes like the book and the movie
and those things can influence culture.
>> That certainly influenced culture to
where like okay this has a life of its
own. I'd like to think some of your work
might influence
the
how we perceive history. That's really
important. That's really powerful to not
just change but sort of expand our
conception of history which is important
to do. Is there particular books fiction
or non-fiction? So, you were both a
fiction writer and a non-fiction writer.
Is there books that had an influence on
you?
>> Yeah. Um, it's uh Ulyses by James Joyce.
Ulysus is good, but only when you're
like in your early 20s living in New
York and you're writing your first book
and you just have taken LSD.
>> Oh, nice.
>> Then I read it and then it open sense.
>> Well, it just showed it's just a very
experimental novel, so it opens up. You
don't have to understand everything, but
it shows you that there's many different
ways of telling a tale. And that was
that was quite interesting to me. But
the most influential book maybe is The
Stranger by Camu.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh because I like the language so much
and I'm really
mostly interested in language. I don't
really care what it's about. Um, I was
lying on the beach in Morocco when I was
20 and reading uh the stranger and then
an uh Moroccan came and he said, "Why
are you reading a racist book?" I'm
like, "What are you talking about? This
is world literature." He said, "Yeah,
right. He's like killing an Arab uh
without consequ No, actually there is
consequence, but no reason basically
just because he's bored. Uh, so this is
racist." That was like made no sense to
me that argument because I was just
interested in how Camu constructed uh it
was just for me a stylistical
um experience to read that.
>> I always love books and strange is a
short book. I love books that are able
to accomplish so much in so little in so
little pages in so few pages in so few
words. Yeah,
>> the stranger.
>> There's nothing unnecessary in the
stranger. And I always tried to write a
book where every sentence is just
there's nothing unnecessary in the book.
But it's very hard to do. Actually, ner
could do this.
>> Yeah,
>> Peterson talked about this that every
sentence in nature is like chiseled and
it's like perfect. And I think not every
I mean, but it's that's his tendency. He
tries to write like this and that's very
hard to achieve. That's actually where
the writing becomes poetic. So for me n
also is like a poet the apherisms is
poetry. So na also stylistically uh
since you asked was very important to
me. So kamu ner James choice and then
just in kafka also I like kafka always.
Um and I like Thomas man. I don't know
how well he translates but in German
it's interesting his take on how to is
funny. He's very he's a very funny guy
even though he's like he talks too much
but he's good. Uh, so I always wanted to
have these guys as my colleagues
basically.
>> Are they there somewhere in your head as
you're writing?
>> Uh, less and less. Uh, but uh, it was
like an incentive to be part of that
club like to be able to write a book and
it's out there and it's perfect and it's
and and and you're on one level with
Kamu, you know, it's very hard to do.
Let's say you become a carpenter which
is also you know a very challenging job
but you don't have these kind of great
well you have Jesus I guess as your call
potential colleague.
>> Yeah sure true
>> but for I just like these writers these
to so the ones I mentioned and also then
Thomas Pinchin
>> who wrote Gravity's Rainbow which I
think is one of the best novels of the
20th century and I read that in Berlin
in the late 90s and it really blew my
mind. I thought it I think it's an
absolute masterpiece. The intensity of
this novel, Gravity's Rainbow,
is unparalleled. And I'm still puzzled
by how he did it. And it's not known how
he did it because he lives he lives a
completely obscure life. No one knows
basically who he is. Uh so he's also a
very interesting colleague. It's widely
regarded as one of the most challenging
and significant works of postmodern
literature. Set primarily in Europe at
the end of World War II. The novel
centers on the design, production, and
deployment of the German V2 rocket. The
narrative follows several characters. Uh
it lists the characters. Uh
>> Sloth Robro is the American agent who's
the main character. He works for Allied
intelligence and he's really a funny
guy. He smokes a lot of weed and he's
like in Berlin and bombed out Berlin
after the war and it's just funny to to
go with him through that. He's he's a
great character. It's a great novel. It
really is.
>> So, it does it does give a window into
history also.
>> It does. Yeah. But that's not why it's
interesting to me. But it it makes it
especially interesting because the way
he describes these situations is just
the way he writes is phenomenal.
>> It's a pol surprise and
>> Oh, but I'm sure he didn't take it
>> unless
Yeah, he declined. Well, no one knows
who he is. I know a little bit. I know
who his wife his wife is, but I'm not
going to talk about it. He really wants
to protect his privacy and I think
that's also amazing.
>> I think that's a beautiful thing. But
for me, from my perspective,
>> he wouldn't appear in the podcast.
>> He would not.
>> It would be great if he would go.
>> Well, I I I believe it's possible, but
with people like that, it has to be a
long journey and it has to you have to
like for me for example, I just
interviewed Terrence Ta who's one of the
greatest mathematicians, one of the
greatest living mathematicians, probably
one of the greats in history. And
there's another I want to uh speak with
which is Greca Gregori Pearlman who's a
a Russian mathematician who's more akin
to Thomas Pinchin. He declined the
Millennial Prize, the one $1 million. He
declined all the prizes, the Fields
Medal, the Breakthrough Prize in
mathematics. He declined everything and
is just lives with his mom now. Quit
mathematics. Like Kero, he also lived
with his mom.
>> Mhm. There's something really beautiful
about a human being like that,
>> right? Um especially
because in his case it was done for
principles like he has certain set of
principles and no amount of money
nothing could buy him or
>> Yeah that's amazing actually. Yeah, I
had somebody
tell me this. A really interesting guy I
met a few days ago
uh said that there's nothing there's
nothing more exhilarating
uh perhaps only a rich person can say
this, but there's nothing more
exhilarating than saying no to a lot of
money.
But he said said it with so much
confidence that I somehow believed him.
Uh but it is the more the deeper truth
there is um living by principles and
having integrity there is there is
something deeply fulfilling
if that means saying no to money or if
that means standing up to Hitler that's
a and then risking your life that's a
deeply fulfilling thing. Uh big
ridiculous question
I thought you were a good person to ask.
What's the point of this whole thing?
What's the meaning of life and our
existence here on Earth?
>> I somehow think that the universe
has a big story to tell or it's telling
a big story the whole time and our
consciousness is part of that bigger
story.
So the consciousness of the whole of the
universe
the big the huge story is something that
is probably the meaning of life and or
the meaning of life of our individual
life is to understand that story and
that that is something for example that
I understood quite well on LSD when I
walked in the mountains uh about a month
ago because the mountains
they actually you know they they're
quite high up into the atmosphere and
They are made of all kinds of minerals
and so they are receiving cosmic energy
that comes you know that hits our planet
and um walking up there and it doesn't I
guess if you're on LSD you're more open
somehow because you're not closing with
your default mode network that you know
this is the tree and this is the path
and this is the mountain and now it's
2:00 and I have to go back and the rain
like this you're more you're more open
so you're more like perceiving I I
that's at least the that's the
impression I had and I couldn't put it
in words what exactly I was perceiving
but I was perceiving more of the bigger
story and I think that is inspiration
and I think those moments bring you
quite close to the meaning of life and I
wouldn't I wouldn't put that meaning on
life in words it's it It is an
experience
and I think that uh for me as an artist
it was an important experience to make
to get close to that and and that is
uh
that is what you can achieve in each of
your professions. You know, like a
mathematician, he comes to that point
when he like hears more like he grasps
like connections and he might not be
able to put it into a formula yet, but
if he's if he's an open person,
he might be a better mathematician
because he can understand a bit more of
of of the meaning of everything
>> of this bigger story that's being
written.
>> Yeah. And uh I mean I mentioned to you
my substack which I think is going to be
the best substack.
>> Do you think it's possible it's the
greatest substack of all time in
history?
>> That's what it's going to be.
>> It's going to be Yeah.
>> Stone Sapion substack. But something
else
>> I just hope you actually do it.
>> Well, you should become a subscriber.
>> I will definitely subscribe. I re I
really realize that that there is a
greater a bigger story and it's somehow
interesting to try to open up because if
we live that's why I like to be in
nature also quite a lot you you get you
get you have a better access we live
boxed in Va Benjamin called us like the
boxed human beings like we're living in
the cities we're doing we're waking up
we're doing like it's good to be
therefore it's good to be outside the
system and I hope that my art can
contribute to you know freeing the brain
waves to you know understanding a bit
more what that is I don't know but I
think the process of understanding more
and and connecting in different ways
that is what I'm going for because I
think that is the meaning of life
well uh thank you for doing that with
all of your work and for inspiring us
all to do the same thank you so much for
talking today
>> it was great thank you thanks for
listening to this conversation with
Norman Oler to support this podcast,
please check out our sponsors in the
description and consider subscribing to
this channel. And now, let me leave you
with some words from the great Terren
McKenna.
Nature loves courage.
You make the commitment and nature will
respond to that commitment by removing
impossible obstacles. Dream the
impossible dream and the world will not
grind you under. It will lift you up.
This is the trick.
This is what all these teachers and
philosophers who really counted, who
really touched the alchemical gold, this
is what they understood.
This is the shamanic dance in the
waterfall. This is how magic is done. By
hurling yourself into the abyss and
discovering that it is in fact a feather
bed.
Thank you for listening and hope to see
you next time.