Kind: captions
Language: en
so people need to go back and read the
history of the first 100 days under FDR
the sheer amount of legislation that
went through his ability to bring
Congress to heal and the Senate he gets
all this stuff through but as you and I
know legislation takes a long time to
put into place right we've had people
starving on the streets all throughout
1933 under Hoover the difference was
Hoover was seen as this do nothing joke
who would dine nine course meals in the
white house he's a filthy rich Banker
FDR comes in there and every single day
has in fireside chat he's passing l
legislation but more importantly so he
he tries various different programs then
they get ruled unconstitutional he tries
even more so what does America take away
from that every single time if he gets
knocked down he comes back fighting and
that was a really part of his character
that he developed uh after he got polio
and it was uh it gave him the strength
to persevere through personally what he
could transfer in his calm demeanor and
his feeling of fight that America really
got that Spirit from him and was able to
climb itself out of the Great Depression
he's such an inspirational figure I
think of Johnson and of Nixon of Teddy
Roosevelt even of FDR I can give you a
laundry list of personal problems that
all those people had I think they had
really really good judgment and uh I'm
not sure how intrinsic their own
personal character was to their
exploration and thinking about the world
so JFK is actually JFK might be our best
example because he had the best judgment
out of anybody in the room as a brand
new president in the Cuban Missile
Crisis and he got us out and avoided
nuclear war which he deserves Eternal
credit for that and I encourage people
out there this is this is a brutal text
we were forced to read it in Graduate
School uh the essence of decision by
Graham Alison I'm so thankful we did
it's one of the foundations of political
science because it lays out theories of
how government works people really need
to understand Washington Washington is a
creature with Traditions with
institutions that don't care about you
they don't even really care about the
president they have self-perpetuating
mechanisms which have been done a
certain way and it usually takes a great
shocking event like World War II to
change really anything beyond the
marginal every once in a while you have
a figure like Teddy Roosevelt who's
actually able to take peacetime
presidency and transform the country but
it needs an extraordinary individual to
get something like that done uh so the
question around the essence of decision
was the theory behind the Cuban Missile
Crisis of how Kennedy arrived at at his
decision and uh there are various
different schools of thought but one of
the things I love about the book is it
presents the case for all three the
organizational Theory the bureaucratic
politics Theory and then kind of the
great man Theory as well so there's a
you know you and I could sit here and I
could tell you a case about PT 109 and
about how John F Kennedy experienced
World War II and how he literally swam
miles with a wounded man's life jacket
strap in his teeth with a broken back
and he saved him and he ended up on the
cover of Life magazine and he was a war
hero and he was a deeply smart
individual who wrote a book in 1939
called why England slept which to this
day is considered a a a text which at
the moment was able to describe in
detail why Neville Chamberlain and the
British political system arrived at the
policy of appeasement I actually have a
original copy it's one of my most prized
possessions because and from 1939
because this a 23-year-old kid who the
fuck are you John F Kennedy um turns out
he's a brilliant man and another just
favorite decide is that at the Potsdam
Conference you know where Harry Truman
is there with Stalin and everybody so in
the room at the same time Harry S Truman
President of the United States Dwight D
Eisenhower the general right who will
succeed him 26-year-old John F Kennedy
as a journalist and all three of those
presidents were in the same room with
Joseph Stalin and others and that that's
the story of America right there it's
kind of amazing I'm going to give you
one of the most depressing quotes which
is deeply true Roger alses who is a
genius shout out to the loudest voice in
the room by Gabriel Sherman that book
changed my life too um because it really
made me understand the media people
don't want to be informed they want to
feel
informed the following is a conversation
with Sagar and Jetty his second time in
the podcast Sagar is a political
commentator journalist co-host of
breaking points with crystal ball and of
the realignment podcast with Marshall
klof Sager is one of the most well- read
people of ever ever met his love of
history and the wisdom gained from
Reading thousands of history books
radiates through every analysis he makes
of the world in this podcast we Trace
out the history of the various
ideological movements that led up to the
current political moment in doing so we
mention a large number of amazing books
we'll put a link to them in the
description for those interested to
learn more about each
topic this is Alex Freedman podcast to
supported please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Saga and Jetty so let's start
with the obvious big question what do
you think Trump won let's break it down
before the election you said that if
Trump wins it's going to be because of
immigration so aside from immigration
what are the maybe less than obvious
reasons that Trump won yes we absolutely
need to return to immigration but
without that multifaceted expl let's
start with the easiest one um there has
been a wave of anti-incumbent energy
around the world financial times chart
recently went viral showing for the
first time I think since World War II
possibly since 1905 I need to look at
the data set that all anti-incumbent
parties all across the world suffered
major defeats so that's a very very
highlevel analysis and we can return to
that if we talk about Donald Trump's
victory in 2016 because there were
similar like Global precursors that
individual level in the United States
there's a very simple explanation as as
well which is that Joe Biden was very
old he was very unpopular inflation was
high inflation is one of the highest
determiners of people switching their
votes and of putting their Primacy on
that ahead of any other issue at The
Ballot Box so that's that but I think
it's actually much deeper at a
psychological level for who America is
and what it is and fundamentally I think
what we're going to spend a lot of time
talking about today is uh the evolution
of the modern left and its collapse uh
in the kamla Harris candidacy and
eventually the loss to Donald Trump in
the popular vote where really is like an
apotheosis of several social forces so
we're going to talk about the Great
Awakening so-called awokening which is
very important to understanding all of
this there's also really Donald Trump
himself who is really one of the most
unique individual American politicians
that we've seen in decades uh at this
point Donald Trump's Victory makes him
the most important and transformative
figure in American politics since FDR
and a thought process for the audience
is in 2028 there will be an 18-year-old
who's eligible to vote who cannot
remember a time when Donald J Trump was
not the Central American figure and
there's stories uh in World War II where
troops were on the front line some of 18
19 years old FDR died and they literally
said well who's the president and they
said Harry Truman you dumbass and they
go who they couldn't conceive of a
universe where FDR was not the president
of the United States and you know Donald
Trump even during the Biden
Administration he was the figure Joe
Biden defined his entire candidacy and
his legacy around defeating this man and
obviously he's failed we should talk a
lot about Joe Biden as well for his own
failed theories of the presidency so I
think at a macro level it's easy to
understand at a basic level inflation
it's easy to understand but what I
really hope that a lot of people can
take away is how fundamentally unique
Donald Trump is as a political figure
and what he was able to do to realign
American politics really forever I mean
in uh the white working-class
realignment originally of 2006
the activation really of a multi-racial
kind of workingclass Coalition and of
really splitting American lines along a
single individual question of did you
attend a four-year college degree
institution or not and this is a crazy
thing to say Donald Trump is one of the
most racially
depolarizing uh electoral figures in
American history we lived in 2016 at a
time when racial groups you know really
voted in blocks Latinos blacks whites
there was some of course division
between the white working class and the
uh white white college educated white
collar workers U but by and large he
could pretty fairly say that Asians were
Indians everyone Mo 80 90% were going to
vote for the Democratic party Latinos as
well uh I'm born you know here in Texas
in the state of Texas George W bush
shocked people when he won some 40% of
the Latino vote Donald Trump just beat K
Harris with Latino men and he ran up the
table for young men so really uh
fundamentally we have witnessed a full
realignment in American politics and
that's a really fundamental problem for
the modern left is erased a lot of the
conversation around Jerry mandering
around uh the Electoral College the
so-called electoral bi college bias
towards Republicans uh really the being
able to win the popular vote for the
first time since 2004 is a shocking and
landmark achievement by a republican uh
in 2008 I have a book on my shelf and I
never I and I always look at it to
remind of how much things can change
James Carville and it says 40 more years
how Democrats will never lose an
election again 2008 they wrote that book
after the Obama Coalition and the
landslide and uh something I love so
much about this country people change
their minds all the time I was born in
1992 I've watched red States go Blue
I've seen blue States go red I've seen
swing States go red or blue I've seen uh
millions of people pick up and move the
greatest internal migration in the
United States since World War II and
it's really inspiring because it's a
really Dynamic interesting place and I
love covering it I love thinking about
it talking about it talking to people
it's awesome one of the reasons I'm a
big fan of yours is uh you're a student
of history and so you recommended a
bunch of books to me and they and others
thread the different movements
throughout American history some
movements take off and do hold power for
a long time some don't and some are
started by a small number of people and
are controlled by a small number of
people some are mass movements and it's
it's just fascinating to watch how those
movements evolve and then fit themselves
maybe into the constraints of a
two-party system and I'd love to sort of
talk about the various perspectives of
that um so would it be fair to say that
this
election was turned into a kind of class
struggle well I won't go that far um
because to say it's a class struggle
really implies that things fundamentally
align on economic lines and I don't
think that's necessarily accurate
although if if that's your L lens you
could get there so there's a a very big
statistic going around right now where
kamla Harris increased her vote share
and won households over $100,000 or more
uh and Donald Trump won households under
00,000 so you could view that in an
economic lens the problem again that I
have is that that is much more appr
proxy for four-year college degree and
for education and so one of my favorite
books is called coming apart by Charles
Murray uh and that book really really
underscores how the cultural milu that
people swim in uh when they attend a
four-year college degree in the
trajectory of their life not only on
where they move to who they marry what
type of grocery store they go to their
cultural uh what television shows that
they watch one of my favorite questions
from Charles Murray is called a bubble
quiz I encourage people to go take it by
the way uh which it ask you a question
it's like what does the word Branson
mean to you and it has a couple of
answers one of them them is uh Branson
is Richard Branson Sir Richard Branson
number two is Branson Missouri which is
like a country music tourist style
destination three is it means nothing so
you are less in a bubble if you say
country music and you're very much in
the bubble if you say Richard Branson
and uh I remember taking that test for
the first time I go obviously Sir
Richard Branson Virgin Atlantic like
what and then I was like wait I'm like
I'm in the bubble and uh there are other
things in there like can you name
various different military ranks I can
because I'm a history nerd but the vast
majority of college educated people
don't know anybody who served in the
United States military they don't have
family members who do uh the most
popular shows in America are like the
Big Bang Theory and NCIS uh whereas
people in our probably cultural milu uh
our favorite shows are White Lotus The
Last of Us this is prestige Television
right with a very small audience but
High income high education so the point
is is that culture really defines who we
are as Americans where we live and uh
rural urban is one way to describe it
but honestly with the work from home
Revolution and more rich people Highly
Educated people moving to more rural
suburban or areas they traditionally
weren't able to commute in that's
changing and so really um in the
internet is everything the stuff that
you consume on the internet the stuff
that you spend your time doing type of
books you read whether you read a book
at all frankly uh whether you uh travel
to Europe whether you have a passport um
you know all the things that you value
in your life that is the real cultural
divide in America and I actually think
that's what this revolution of uh Donald
Trump was activating and bringing people
to the polls bringing a lot of those
traditional workingclass voters of all
Races away from the Democratic party
along the lines of elitism of sneering
and of a general cultural feeling that
these people don't understand me and uh
my struggles in this life and so of the
trivial formulation is that is the the
wokeism the anti- wokeism movement yeah
so it's not
necessarily that uh Trump winning was a
statement against wokeism it was the
broader anti- elitism it's difficult to
say because uh I wouldn't dismiss
anti-woke or wokeism as an explanation
um but we need to understand like the
Electoral impacts of woke so there's
varying degrees of like how you're going
to encounter quote unquote wokeism and
this is a very difficult thing to Define
so let me just try and break it down
which is there are the types of things
that you're going to interact with on a
cultural basis and what I mean by that
is uh going to watch a TV show and just
for some reason there's like two trans
characters and it's never like
particular explain why they just are
there or watching a commercial and it's
the same thing uh watching I don't know
I remember it was watching I think it
was Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of
Madness and the main it was a terrible
movie by the way don't recommend it uh
but one of the characters I think is her
name was like America and she wore a gay
pride flag right look many left-wingers
would make fun of me for saying these
things but that is obviously a social
agenda to the point as in they believe
it is like deeply acceptable that is
used by Hollywood and cultural Elites
who really value the those uh progress
you know in sexual orientation and
others and they really believe it's
important to quote unquote showcase it
for representation so that's like one
way that we may encounter quote unquote
wokeism but the more important ways
frankly are the ways that affirmative
action which really has its roots in you
know American society all the way going
back to the 1960s and how those have
manifested in our economy and in our
understanding of quote unquote
discrimination so two books I can
recommend one is called the origins of
woke that's by Richard hanania uh
there's another one by the age of
entitlement by Christopher Caldwell and
they make a very strong case that
Caldwell in particular that he calls it
like a new founding of America was the
passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964
because it created an entire new legal
regime and understanding of race in the
American character and how the
government was going to enforce that and
that really ties in with another one of
the books that I recommended to you
about the origins of Trump by Jim Web
and Senator Jim Webb uh incredible
incredible man he's so underappreciated
uh intellectual he was anti-war and uh
he was people may remember him from the
2016 primary and uh they asked him uh
they asked him a question I don't
exactly remember about one of his
enemies and he's like well one of them
was um guy a shot in Vietnam and he was
running against Hillary and uh that guy
the he wrote the book born fighting I
think it's what history of the Scotts
Irish people something like that and
that book really opened my eyes to the
way that affirmative action and racial
preferences that were playing out you
know through the HR managerial Elite
really turned a lot of people within the
white working class away from the
Democratic party and felt fundamentally
discriminated against by the
professional managerial class and so
there's a lot of roots to this the
managerial Revolution by James Burnham
and in terms of the origin of kind of
how we got here but the crystallization
of like Dei and or affirmative action I
prefer to use the term affirmative
action in the higher highest echelons of
business and there became this idea that
representation itself was the only thing
that mattered and I think that right
around 2014 that really went on steroids
and that's why it's not an accident that
Donald J Trump elected in 2016 at this
point do you think this election is a
kind of statement that wokeism as a
movement is dead I don't know um I mean
it's very difficult to say because
wokeism itself is not a movement with a
party leader it's a amorphous uh belief
that has worked its way through
institutions now for almost 40 or 50
years I mean it's effectively a religion
um and part of the reason why it's
difficult Define is it means done
different things to different people so
for example there are VAR degrees of how
we would Define quote unquote woke do I
think that the Democrats will be
speaking in so-called academic language
yes I do think they will I think that
the next Democratic nominee will not do
that however kamla Harris actually did
move as much as she could away from
quote unquote woke but she basically was
punished for a lot of the sins of both
herself from 2019 but a general cultural
feeling that her and the people around
her do not understand me and not only do
not understand me but have racial
preferences or a regime or an
understanding that would lead to a quote
unquote Equity mindset you know equal
outcomes for everybody as opposed to
equality of opportunity which is more of
a colorblind philosophy so I can't say I
think it's way too early and you know
again like you can not use the word
latinx but do you still believe in an
effective affirmative action regime you
know in terms of how you would run your
Department of Justice in terms of how
you view the world in terms of what you
think the real dividing lines in America
are because I would say that's still
actually kind of a woke mindset and
that's part of the reason why the the
term itself doesn't really mean a whole
lot and we have to get actually really
specific about what it looks like in
operations in operation it means
affirmative action it means the NASDAQ
passing some law that if you want to go
public or something that you have to
have a woman and a person of color on
your board like this is a blatant and
you know extraordinary look racialism
that they've enshrined in their bylaws
so you can get rid of ESG that's great
um but you know you you can get rid of
Dei I think that's great but it's really
about a mindset and a view of the world
and I don't think that's going anywhere
and you think the reason it doesn't work
well in practice is because it there's a
big degree to which it's anti
meritocracy it's anti-American really I
mean uh you know Dei and woke and
affirmative action make perfect sense in
a lot of different countries okay and
there are a lot of countries out there
that are multiethnic and they're
heterogeneous and they were run by
basically quasi dictators and the way it
works is that you pay off the Christians
and they pay off the Muslims and they
get this guy and they get that guy and
everybody kind of shakes it it's very
explicit whether they're like we have 10
spots and they go to the Christians we
have 10 spots and they go to the Hindus
you know I'm talking India is a country
I know pretty well and this does kind of
work like that on state politics level
in some respect but in America you know
fundamentally we really believe that no
matter where you are from that you come
here and basically within a generation
uh especially if you migrate here
legally and you integrate that you leave
a lot of that stuff behind and the story
the American dream that is ingrained in
so many of us is one that really does
not mesh well with any sort of racial
preference regime or anything that's not
Merit itic and uh I mean I will give the
left Wingers some you know Credit in the
idea that meritocracy itself you know
could have preference for people who
have privileged backgrounds I think
that's true um and so you know the way I
would like to see it is to increase
everybody's equality of opportunity to
make sure that they all have a chance at
quote unquote willing out the American
dream but that doesn't erase meritocracy
hardw work and uh many of the other
things that we associate with the
American character with the American
frontier so these are two ideologies
which are really at odds like in a lot
of ways like wokeism racialism and all
this is a third world ideology it's one
that's very prevalent in Europe and in
uh all across Asia but it doesn't mix
well here and and it shouldn't and I'm
really glad that the America feels the
same way yeah I got to go back to uh Jim
Webb in that book what a badass
fascinating book my God warn fighting
amazing how the Scots Irish Shaped
America so I did not realize to the
degree first of all how badass the Scot
Irish are
and the to the degree many of the things
that kind of identifies American and
part of the American Spirit were defined
by this relatively small group of people
as he describes the model could be
summarized as fight sing drink and pray
so there's the principles of fierce
individualism the principles of a deep
distrust of government the elites the
authorities bottom up governance over
2,000 years of a military tradition they
made up 40% of the Revolutionary War
army
and uh produced numerous military
leaders including Stonewall Jackson ulys
S Grant George S Patton and a bunch of
presidents yeah some of the more
gangster presidents Andrew Jackson Teddy
Roosevelt Udo Wilson Ronald Reagan Bill
Clinton MH just the the whole cultural
Legacy of country music we owe them so
much and they really don't get their du
unfortunately a lot of for the reasons
that I just described around racialism
is because post you know Mass
immigration from Europe the term white
kind of became blanket applied to new
Irish to Italians to slovenians and you
know as you and I both know if you
travel those countries people are pretty
different and it's not not the different
here in the United States Scott CIS was
some of the original settlers here in
America and particularly in Appalachia
and their contribution to the fighting
spirit and their own culture and like
who we are as individualists and uh some
of the first people to ever settle the
frontier and that Frontier mindset
really does come from them we owe them
just as much we do the Puritans but they
don't ever really get their due and the
reason I recommend that book is if you
read that book and you understand then
you know how exactly could this group of
white workingclass voters for go from
2012 voting for a man named Barack
Hussein Obama to Donald J Trump um you
really seem to it makes perfect sense if
you combine it with a lot of the stuff
I'm talking about here about affirmative
action about distrust of the elites
about feeling as if institutions are not
seeing through to you and specifically
also not valuing valuing your
contribution to American history and in
some cases actively looking down you
know I'm I'm glad you pointed out not
only their role in the Revolutionary War
but in the Civil War as well um and you
know just how much of a contribution
culturally really that we owe them um
for setting the groundwork that so many
of us who came later could build upon
and adopt some of their own ideas and
their culture as our own it's one of the
things that makes America great Mark
Twain yeah I mean so much of the culture
so much of the yeah the American Spirit
the the whole idea the whole shape and
form and type of populism that
represents our democracy so would you
trace the that that Fierce individualism
that we think of back to them definitely
it's a huge part of them uh about who
they were about the screw you attitude
um I mean uh that book actually kind of
had a Renaissance back in 2016 when Hill
bology came out I'm sure you remember
this which it's kind of weird to think
that it's now this Vice president-elect
of the United States it's kind of wild
honestly to think about um but JD
Vance's book Hill beology I think was
really important for a lot of American
Elites who were like how do these
support people support Trump where does
this shit come from that they really I
mean that if you really think back to
that time it was shocking to the elite
character that any person in the world
could ever vote for Donald Trump and not
just vote he won the election how does
that happen and that's hillbilly elogy
guided people in an understanding of
what that's like on a lived day-to-day
basis and JD to his credit talks about
Scots Irish heritage about Appalachia
and the legacy of what that culture
looks like today and how a lot of these
people voted for Donald Trump but we got
to give credit to Jim Webb who wrote the
history of these people and taught me
and you about you know their their
original fight against the uh the
oppressors in Scotland and in Ireland
and their militant spirit and how they
were able to bring that over here um and
you know they got their due in Andrew
Jackson and some of our other populist
presidents who set us up on the road to
Donald Trump to where we are today dude
it got me excited to be an American me
too I love that book it's crazy that JD
the same guy because that's uh hillbilly
El is what I kind of thought of him as
yeah yeah I mean I'll tell you for me
it's actually pretty surreal I met JD
Vance in like 2017 I didn't in like a
bar I didn't ever think he would be the
vice president-elect of the United
States I mean just kind of wild uh one
of my friends went back and dug up the
email that we originally sent him just
like hey do you want to meet up or he's
like sure you know okay I was watching
on television um I mean the first time
that it really hit me I was like whoo it
like name in a history book is whenever
he became the Vice Presidential nominee
I was watching him on TV and the
confetti was falling and he was waving
with his wife and I was like wow like
that's it you're you're in the history
books now forever especially now so uh
as the literal Vice president-elect of
the US but his own evolution is actually
a fascinating uh a fascinating story for
us too because I think a lot of the time
I've spent right now is kind of this a
lot of what I'm giving right now like
2016 kind of takes about like why Trump
won that time but we should spent a lot
of time on how Donald Trump won this
election and like how what happened some
of the failures of the Biden
Administration some of the payback for
the great awokening but also if you look
at the evolution of JD Vance this is a
person who wrote hillbilly elogy and not
a lot of people pay attention to this
but if you read hillbilly elgy uh JD was
much more of a traditional conservative
at that time uh he was citing you know
report I think the famous passage is
about like payday loans and why they're
good or something like that I don't know
his position today but I would just
assume that he's probably changed that
but the point is is that his ideological
Evolution from watching somebody who uh
really was more of a traditional
Republican with a deep empathy for the
white working class then eventually
become a champion and a disciple of
Donald Trump and to believe that he
himself was the vehicle for
accomplishing and bettering the United
States was specifically for workingclass
Americans really of all stripes and
that's story is really one one of the
rise of the modern left as it exists as
a political project as an ideology it's
also one of the Republican party which
coales now with Donald Trump as a
legitimate figure and as the single
bullwark against cultural leftism and
elitism that eventually was normalized
to the point that majority of Americans
decided to vote for him in 2024 so let's
talk about 2024 what what happened with
uh with the left what happened with
Biden what's your take on on Biden Biden
is um I try to remove myself from it and
I try not to give like hit big history
takes while you're in the moment but
it's really hard not to say that he's
one of the worst Presidents in modern
history and uh I think the reason why
I'm going to go with it is because I
want to judge him by the things that he
set out to do so Joe Biden um has been
the same person for his entire political
career he is a basically C student who
thinks he's an a student the chip on his
shoulder against the elites has played
to his benefit in his original election
to the United States Senate through his
entire career as United States Senator
where he always wanted to be the star
and the center of attention and to his
1988 presidential campaign and uh one of
the most fascinating things about Biden
and watching him age is watching him
become even more of what he already was
and so a book recommendation it's called
what it takes and uh It Was Written in
1988 and there's actually a long chapter
on Joe Biden and about the plagiarism
scandal and one of the things that comes
across is his sheer arrogance and belief
in himself as to why he should be the
center of attention now the reason I'm
laying all this out is the arrogance of
Joe Biden the individual and his
character is fundamentally the reason
his presidency went arai this is a
person who was elected in 2020 really
because of a feeling of chaos of Donald
Trump of we need normaly decides to come
into the office portrays himself as a
quote unquote transitional president
slowly you know begins to lose a lot of
his faculties and then surrounds himself
with sycophants the same ones who have
been around him for so long that he had
no single input into his life to tell
him that he needed to stop and he needed
to drop out of the race until it became
truly undeniable to the vast majority of
the American people um and that's why
I'm trying to keep it as like him as an
individual as a president because we
could separate him from some of his
accomplishments and the things that
happen on some I support some I don't uh
but generally a lot of people are not
going to look back and think about Joe
Biden and the chips sack a lot of people
are not going to look back and think
about Joe Biden and the bill back better
bill or whatever his Lena Khan
Anti-Trust policy they're going to look
back on him and they're going to
remember High inflation they're going to
remember somebody who fundamentally
never was up to the job in the sense
that one again book recommendation
Freedom From Fear by David Kennedy is
about uh the Roosevelt years and one of
the most important things people don't
understand is the New Deal didn't really
work in the way that a lot of people
wanted it to right like there was still
high unemployment there was still a lot
of suffering um but you know what
changed they felt that they had a
vigorous commander-in-chief who was
doing everything in his power to attack
the problems of the everyday American so
even though things didn't even
materially change the Vigor that's a
term that was often associated with John
F Kennedy at Viga you know in the
Massachusetts accent we had this young
vibrant president in 1960 he was running
around and he wanted to convince us that
he was working every single day
tirelessly and when you have an
80-year-old man
who is simply just eating ice cream and
going to the beach while people's
grocery prices and all this go up by 25%
and we don't see the same Vigor we don't
see the same action the bias to action
which is so important in the modern
presidency that is fundamentally why I
think the Democrats uh part of the
reason why the Democrats lost the
election and also why I think that he
missed his moment in such a dramatic way
uh and he had the opportunity he could
have done it you know if he wanted to
but uh maybe 20 years ago but the truth
is that his own narcissist ISM his own
uh misplaced belief in himself and his
own accidental rise to the presidency
ended up uh in his downfall and it's
kind of amazing because again if we if
we look back to his original campaign
speech 2019 why I'm running for
president it was Charlottesville and he
said I want to defeat Donald Trump
forever and I want to make sure that he
never gets back in the white house again
so by his own metric he did fail that
was his it was the only thing he wanted
to do and he failed failed from him you
said a lot of interesting stuff so one
FDR
that's really interesting it's not about
the specific policy it's about like
fighting for the people and doing that
with Charisma and just uniting the
entire country
for a partic this is the same with
Bernie like maybe there's a lot of
people that disagree with Bernie that's
still support him CU like we just want
some authentic yeah that's it we just
want somebody to fight authentically for
us yes FDR people really need FDR was
like a king he was like Jesus Christ
okay in in the US and it some of it was
because of what did but it was just the
fight so people need to go back and read
the history of the first 100 days under
FDR the sheer amount of legislation they
went through his ability to bring
Congress to heal and the Senate he gets
all this stuff through but as you and I
know legislation takes a long time to
put into place right we've had people
starving on the streets all throughout
1933 um under uh under Hoover the
difference was Hoover was seen as this
do nothing joke who had dine nine course
meals in the white house he's a filthy
rich Banker FDR comes in there and every
single day has in fireside chat he's
passing legislation but more importantly
so he he tries various different
programs then they get ruled
unconstitutional he tries even more so
what does America take away from that
every single time if he gets knocked
down he comes back fighting and that was
a really part of his character that he
developed uh after he got polio and it
was uh it gave him the strength to
persevere through personally what he
could transfer in his calm demeanor and
his feeling of fight that Amer America
really got that Spirit from him and was
able to climb itself out of the Great
Depression he's such an inspirational
figure he really is and uh I people
think of him for World War II of course
you know we can spend forever on that
but uh in my opinion the the early years
are not studied enough 33 to 37 is one
of the most remarkable periods in
American history we were not ruled by a
President we were ruled by a king by a
monarch and people liked it he was he
was a dictator and he was a good
one yeah so uh to uh sort of push back
against the
implied thing that you said so when
saying Biden is the worst president no
second worst in modern history that's
what I said second in modern history
who's the worst W with no question I see
because of the horrible Wars probably I
mean Iraq is just so bad like one of my
uh favorite authors is a guy Gene Edward
Smith he's Ru a bunch of presidential
biographies and in the opening of his
but duy biography he's like there's just
no question there's a single worst
foreign policy mistake in in all of
American history and W is one of our
worst Presidents ever he had terrible
judgment and it got us into a war of his
own choosing it was a disaster and it
set us up for failure it by the way we
talked a lot about Donald Trump nobody
is more uh responsible for the rise of
Donald Trump than George W bush but I
could I could go off on Bush for a long
time oh we will we will return there so
as part of the push back I'd like to say
cuz I agree with your criticism of
arrogance and narcissism against Joe
Biden the same could be said about
Donald Trump you're absolutely right of
arrogance so I think you've also
articulated that a lot of presidents
throughout American history have
suffered from a bad case of arrogance
and narcissism absolutely but sometimes
to a benefit you know you have to be a
pretty crazy person to be uh to want to
be president I you know I had put out a
tweet that got some controversy and uh I
think it was Joe Rogan uh who I love but
he was like I want to find out who KLA
Harris is as a human being and I was
like I'm actually not interested in who
politicians are as human beings at all
um I like I've read too much about them
to know uh I know who are um if you
spend your life and because I live in
Washington and I spend a lot of time
around would be politicians I know what
it takes to actually become the
president it's crazy you have to give up
everything everything every night you're
not spending it with your wife you're
spending it at dinner with potential
donors with friends with people who can
connect you every even after you get
elected that's even more so now you got
to raise money and now you're on to the
next thing now you want to get your
political thing through you're going to
spend all your time on your phone you
and your staff are going to be more like
this your entire life revolves around
around your career it's honestly you
need an insane level of narcissism to do
it because you have to believe that you
are better than everybody else which is
already pretty crazy um and not only
that uh your own personal
characteristics and foibles lead you to
the pursuit of this office and to the
pursuit of the idolatry of the self and
everything around you there's a famous
story of uh Ladybird Johnson after
Johnson becomes the president he's
talking to the White House Butler and
she was like everything in this house
revolves around my husband whatever's
left goes to the girls her two children
and I'll take the scraps so it she
everything revolved around Johnson's
political career and his daughters when
they're honest because they like to
paper over some of the things uh that
happened under him but they didn't spend
any time with him Saturday Saturday
morning was for breakfast with you know
Richard Russell I forget these are all
in the Robert a Caro books Sunday was
for Rayburn there was no time for you
know for for his kids that's what it was
and and by the way he's one of the
greatest policians to ever live but he
also died from a massive heart attack
and he was a deeply sad and depressed
individual yeah I saw that tweet to go
back to that and also I listened to your
incredible debate about it with Marshall
on the realignment podcast and I have to
side with Marshall I think you're just
wrong on this right um because I think
revealing the character of a person is
really important to understand how they
will act in a room full of generals and
full of uh yeah this gets to the
Judgment question the judgment and
that's I think of Johnson and and of
Nixon of uh Teddy Roosevelt even of FDR
I can give you a laundry list of
personal problems that all those people
had I think they had really really good
judgment and uh I'm not sure how
intrinsic their own personal character
was to their exploration and thinking
about the world so JFK is actually JFK
might be our best example because he had
the best judgment out of anybody in the
room as a brand new president in the
Cuban Missile Crisis and he got us out
and avoided nuclear war which he
deserves Eternal credit for that but uh
how did he arrive to good judgment uh
some of it certainly was his character
and we can go again though into his
laundry list of that but most most of it
was around being with his father seeing
some of the mistakes that he would make
and he was also had a deeply inquisitive
mind and he experienced World War II at
the personal level uh After PT 109 so it
is look I I get it I actually could
steal man it I could the response to
what I'm saying is judgment is not
divisible from personal character but
just because I know a lot of politicians
and I've read but the really great ones
the people who I I Revere the most um
there's really bad personal stuff
basically every single time but you're
saying the Judgment was good his
judgment was great Missile Crisis some
of the best uh judgment and decision
making in the history of America yes and
we should study a lot of it and I
encourage people out there this is this
is a brutal text we were forced to read
it in Graduate School uh the essence of
decision by Graham Allison I'm so
thankful we did it's one of the
foundations of political science because
it lays out theories of how government
works this is also a useful transition
by the way if we want to talk about
Trump and some of his cabinet and how
that is shaping up because people really
need to understand Washington Washington
is a creature with Traditions with
institutions that don't care about you
they don't even really care about the
president they have self-perpetuating
mechanisms which have been done a
certain way and it usually takes a great
shocking event like World War II to
change really anything beyond the
marginal every once in a while you have
a figure like Teddy Roosevelt who's
actually able to take peacetime
presidency and transform the country but
it needs an extraordinary individual to
get something like that done uh so the
question around the essence of decision
was the theory behind the Cuban Missile
Crisis of how Kennedy arrived at at his
decision and uh there are various
different schools of thought but one of
the things I love about the book is it
presents the case for all three the
organizational Theory the bureaucratic
politics Theory and then kind of the
great man Theory as well so there's a
you know you and I could sit here and I
could tell you a case about PT 109 and
about how John F Kennedy experienced
World War II as this uh I think it was
like a first lieutenant or something
like that and how he literally swam
miles with a wounded man's life jacket
strap in his teeth with a broken back
and he saved him and he ended up on the
cover of Life magazine and he was a war
hero and he was a deeply smart
individual who wrote a book in 1939
called why England slept which to this
day is considered a a a text which at
the moment was able to describe in
detail why uh Neville Neville
Chamberlain and the British political
system arrived at the policy of
appeasement I actually have a original
copy it's one of my most prized
possessions because and from 1939
because this is a 23y old kid who the
fuck are you John F Kennedy um turns out
he's a brilliant man and another just
favorite aside is that at the pot Stam
conference you know where Harry Truman
is there with Stalin and everybody so in
the room at the same time Harry S Truman
President of the United States Dwight D
Eisenhower the general right who will
succeed him 26-year-old John F Kennedy
as a journalist some shithead journalist
on the side and all three of those
presidents were in the same room with
Joseph Stalin and others um and that
that's the story of America right there
it's kind of amazing uh I I love people
to say that because you never know um
about who will end up rising to power
but are you announcing that you're
running for oh absolutely not yeah I I
don't have what it takes I don't think
so I'm self-aware yeah well maybe
humility is necessary for greatness okay
so uh yeah actually can we just Linger
on that book yeah so the book essence of
decision explaining the Cuban Missile
Crisis by Graham Allison it presents
three different models of how government
works the rational actor model so seeing
government as one entity uh trying to
maximize the national interest uh also
seeing government as uh
through the lens of the momentum of
standard operating procedure so this
giant uh organization that's just doing
things how it's always been done and the
government politics model of there's
just these individual internal power
struggles within government yes and all
of that is like a different way to view
and they're probably all true to degree
of how decisions are made within this
giant Machinery of government that's why
it's so important is because you cannot
read that book and say one is true and
one is not you can say one is May more
true than the other but all of them are
deeply true and this is one this is
probably a good transition to Donald
Trump um because uh and I guess for the
people out there who don't think I've
been up too obsequious he will be my
criticism Trump said something very
fundamental and interesting on The Joe
Rogan podcast probably the most
important thing that he ever said which
is he said I like to have people like
John Bolton in my Administration well
because they scare people and it makes
me seem like the most rational
individual in the room so at a very
intuitive level a lot of people can
understand that and then they can
rationalize while there are picks that
Donald Trump has brought into his White
House people like Mike Waltz and others
that have espoused views that are
directly at odds with a quote unquote
anti- neocon anti- Liz Cheney agenda now
Trump's theory of this is that he likes
to have quote unquote like Psychopaths
like John Bolton uh in the room with him
while he's sitting across from Kim
Jong-un because it gets scared what I
think Trump Trump never understood when
he was president and I honestly question
if he still does now is those two
theories that you laid out which are not
about the rational interest as the
government is one model with the
bureaucratic Theory and the
organizational theory of politics and
because what Trump I don't think quite
gets is that there are 99% of the
decisions that get made in government
never reach the president's desk one of
the most important Obama quotes ever is
by the time it gets to my desk nobody
else can solve it all the problems here
are hard all the problems here don't
have an answer that's why I have to make
the call so
the theory that Trump has that you can
have people in there who are let's say
warmongers neocons or whatever who don't
necessarily agree with you is that when
push comes to shove at the most
important decisions that I'll still be
able to Reign those people in as an
influence here's the issue uh let's say
for Mike Waltz who's going to be the
National Security adviser the a lot of
people don't really understand you know
there's this theory of National Security
adviser where you call me into your
office and you're the president you're
like hey what do we think about Iran I'm
like I think you should do X Y andz no
that's not how works the National
Security advisor's job is to coordinate
the inter agency process so his job is
to actually convene meetings him and his
staff where in The Situation Room CIA
State Department SEF others before the
pus even walks in we have options so
we're like hey Russia just invaded
Ukraine we need a package of options
those package of options are conceded of
three things we're going to have one
group we're going to call it the doish
option two we're going to call it the
Middle Ground Three the hardcore package
Trump walks in this is how it's supposed
to work Trump walks in he goes okay
Russian invaded Ukraine what do we do Mr
President we prepared three options for
you we got one two and three now who has
the power is it Trump when he picks one
two or three or is the man who decides
what even in option one two and three
that is the part where Trump needs to
really understand how these things
happen and I watched this happen to him
in his first Administration uh he hired
a guy Mike Flynn who was his National
Security adviser you could say a lot
about Flynn but him him and Trump were
at least like this on foreign policy
Flynn gets outed because what I would
call an FBI coup whatever 33 days he's
out uh as a national security adviser H
Arch Master he's got a nice nice shiny
uniform forstar all of this master
doesn't agree with Donald Trump at all
and so uh Trump says I ran on pulling
out of Afghanistan I want to get out of
Afghanistan they're like yeah yeah we'll
get out of Afghanistan but uh before we
get out we got to go back in as we need
more troops in there and he's like oh
okay um you know it's like all this and
uh he approves a plan and effectively
gives a speech in 2017 where he ends up
escalating and increasing the number of
troops in Afghanistan and it's only till
February 2020 that he gets to sign a
deal the Taliban peace deal which in my
opinion he should have done in 2017 but
the reason why that happened was because
of that organizational theory of that
bureaucratic politics Theory where HR
McMaster is able to guide the inter
agency process bring the uniform
recommendations of The Joint Chiefs of
Staff and others to give Donald Trump no
option but to say we must put troops
another example of this is a book called
Obama's War by Bob Woodward I highly
encourage people to read this book
because this book talks about how Obama
comes into the White House in 2009 and
he says I want to get out of Iraq and I
don't want to increase I want to fight
the good war in Afghanistan right and
he's doing Obama's a thoughtful guy too
thoughtful actually uh and so he sits
there and he's working out his opinions
and uh what he starts to watch is that
very slowly his narrow his options begin
to narrow because strategic leaks start
to come out from the White House
Situation Room about what we should do
in Afghanistan and pretty soon David
Petraeus and Stan mccristal and the
entire National Security apparatus has
obam pegged where he basically
politically at the time decides to take
the advantage Advantage possession of
increasing troops in Afghanistan but
then tries to have it both ways but by
saying but in two years we're going to
withdraw that book really demonstrates
how the Deep State can completely remove
any of your options to be able to move
by presenting you with ones which you
even want and then making it politically
completely infeasible to travel down the
extreme Directions That's why when Trump
says things like I want to get out of
Syria that doesn't compute up here for
the Pentagon um because first of all you
know if I even asked you how many troops
we have in Syria and you could go on the
dod website it'll tell you a number the
number's bullshit because the way they
do it is if you're only there for 179
days you don't count as active military
contractors the real numbers let's say
five times um and so Trump would be like
hey I want to get out of Sy yeah yeah
we'll do it six months right we need six
months and after six months go so so are
we out of Syria yet and they're like no
well we got to wrap this up we got this
base we got that and we have this
important Mission and you know next
thing you know you're not you're out of
office and it's over so that there's
there's all these things which I don't
think he quite understands I know that
some of the people around him who
disagree with these picks do is the
reason why these picks really matter is
not only the voices in The Situation
Room for the really really high-profile
stuff it's for all the little things
that never get to that President's desk
of which can shape extraordinary policy
and I'll give you uh the uh best example
was never a decision by FDR as president
of the United States to Oil Embargo
Japan one which he thought about as
deeply as you and I would want it was a
decision kind of made within the state
department it was a decision that was
made by some of his advisers I think he
eventually signed off on it it was a
conscious choice but it was not one
which ever was understood the
implications that by doing that we
invite a potential response like Pearl
Harbor so think about you know what the
organizational bureaucratic model can
tell us about the extraordinary blowback
that we can get and why we want people
with great judgment all the way up and
down the entire National Security chain
in the white house also I just realized
I did not talk about immigration which
is so insane one of the reasons Donald
Trump won in 2024 of course was because
of the massive change to the immigration
status quo the truth is is that it may
actually be second to inflation in terms
of the reason that Trump did win the
presidency was because Joe Biden
fundamentally changed the immigration
status quo in this country that was
another thing about the Scots Irish
people and others that we need to
understand is that when government
machinery and elitism and liberalism
appears to be more concerned about
people who are coming here in a
disorderly and illegal process and about
their rights and their you know ability
to quote unquote pursue the American
dream while the American dream is dying
for the native born population that is a
huge reason why people are turning
against Mass immigration historically as
well uh my friend rhan Salam wrote a
book called Melting Pot or Civil War and
one of the most important parts about
that book is the history of mass
migration to the United States so if we
think about the transition from Scotts
Irish America to the opening of the of
America to the Irish and to mass
European immigration we what a lot of
people don't realize is it caused a ton
of problems there were mass movements at
the time the know nothings and others in
the 1860s Who Rose up against Mass
European migration they were
particularly concerned about Catholicism
uh by as the religion of a lot of the
new immigrants but really what it was is
about the changing of the American
character by people who are not have the
same Traditions values and skills as the
native born population and their
understanding of what their ode and
their role in American society is very
different from the way that uh people
previously had one of the most
tumultuous periods of us politics was
actually during the resolution of the
immigration question where we had
massive waves of foreign born population
come to the United States
uh we had them you know integrated
luckily actually at the time with the
Industrial Revolution so we actually did
have jobs for them one of the problems
is that today in the United States we
have one of the highest levels of
foreign born population than ever before
actually since that time in the early
1900s but we have all of the same
attendant problems but even worse is we
don't live in an industrial economy
anymore we live in a predominantly
service-based economy that has long you
know moved past manufacturing now I'm
not saying we shouldn't bring some of
that back but the truth is that
manufacturing today is not what it was
to work in a steel mill in 1875 I think
we can all be reasonable and we can
agree on that and part of the problems
with extremely high levels of foreign
born population particularly unskilled
and the vast majority of the people who
are coming here and who are claiming
Asylum are doing so under fraudulent
purposes they're doing so because they
are economic migrants and they're
abusing you know Asylum law to basically
gain entrance to the United States
without going through a process of
application or of Merit and this has it
all of its traces back to
1965 where the immigration
Naturalization Act of 1965 really
reversed and changed the status quo of
immigration from the 1920s to 1960 which
really shut down uh levels of
immigration to the United States in my
opinion it was one of the most important
things that ever happened and one of the
reasons why is it forced and caused
integration it also forced by slowing
down the increase in the number of
foreign born population it redeveloped
an American character and an
understanding that was more homogenous
and was the ability for you and me to
understand despite the difference in our
background if you accelerate and you
continue this trend of the very high
foreign born unskilled population you
unfortunately are basically creating a
mass you know un it's it's basically
it's a non-citizen population of illegal
immigrants people who are not a skilled
uh you know I think it was I read 27% of
the people who have come under Joe Biden
illegally don't even have a college
degree that means that we're lucky if
they're even literate in Spanish let
alone English so there are major
problems about integrating that type of
person you know even in the past
whenever we had a mass industrial
economy now imagine today the amount of
strain that would put on Social Services
if Mass citizenship happened you know to
that population would be extraordinary
um and even if we were to do I don't
think it's a good idea but even if we
were to do so we would still need to
parir it with a dramatic change and part
of the problem right now is I don't
think a lot of people understand that
immigration system uh the immigration
system in the United States effectively
uh they call it family based migration
uh I call it chain migration um chain
migration is the term which implies that
uh let's say you come over here um and
you get your green card you can use
sponsorship and others by Gaming the
quota system to get your cousin or
whatever to be able to come the problem
with that is who is your cousin like is
he a plumber is he you know does he have
is he a coder you know that doesn't
actually matter cuz he's your cousin so
he actually has preference uh the way
that it should work is it should be
nobody cares if he's your cousin what's
what does he do you know what does she
do what is she going to bring to this
country all immigration in the United
States in my opinion should be net
positive without doing fake statistics
about oh they actually increased the GDP
or whatever it's like we need a
merit-based immigration system we are
the largest country in the world uh and
one of the only non-western or one of
the only Western countries in the world
that does not have a merab based
points-based immigration system like
Australia and or Canada and I mean I get
it because a lot of people did come to
this country under non-m merit-based
purposes so they're really reluctant to
let that go but I do think that Biden by
changing the immigration status quo and
by basically just allowing you know tens
of millions uh potentially tens of
millions at the very least 12 million
new entrance to come to the US uh under
these pretenses of complete disorder and
of no conduct really broke a lot of
people's understanding and even like
Mercy in that regard and so that was
obviously a massive part of Trump's
Victory speaking of illegal immigration
what do you think about the borders are
Tom homman Tom Homan is a very legit
dude uh got to know him a little bit in
Trump uh 1.0 he is an original like True
Believer on enforcing immigration law as
it is uh now notice how I just said it
that that's a politically correct way of
saying Mass deportation um and I I I
will point out for my leftwing critics
in that yeah he really believes in the
ability uh the in the ability in the
necessity of mass deportation and he has
the background to be able to carry that
out I will give some warnings um and
this will apply to Doge too Zar has no
statutory or constitutional Authority uh
Zar has as much Authority as the
President of the United States gives him
Donald Trump uh I think it's fair to say
even his critics or even the people who
love him could say he can be capricious
at times um and uh he can strip you or
not strip you or give you the ability to
compel so Zar in and of itself is
frankly a very flawed position in the
white house and it's one that I really
wish we would move away from I
understand why we do it it's basically
to do a national security adviser inter
agency convenor to accomplish certain
goals uh that said there is a person
Steven Miller who will be in the White
House the deputy White house chief of
staff who has well-founded beliefs
experience in government and uh Rock
Solid ideology on this which I think
would also give him the ability to work
with hman to pull that off that said a
Cory to this and frankly this is the one
I am the most mystified yet is Kirsty
gnome as the Department of Homeland
Security secretary so let me just lay
this out for people because people don't
know what this is the Department of
Homeland Security 90% of the time the
way you're going to interact with them
is T SAA you don't think about it but
people don't know the Department of
Homeland Security is one of the largest
law enforcement if maybe the largest law
enforcement agency in the world it's
gigantic you have extraordinary
statutory power to be able to approve
investigations you have border patrol
ice TSA CBP all these other agencies
that report up to you but most
importantly for this you will be the
public face of mass deportation um so I
was there in the White House briefing
room last time around when kirston neon
who was the DHS secretary under Donald
Trump and specifically the one who
enforced child separation for a limited
uh period of time she was a smart woman
she had long experience in government
and honestly she melted under the uh
criticism kirom is the governor of South
Dakota I mean that's great you have a
little bit of executive experience but
to be honest I mean you have no law
enforcement background uh you have no
ability to like you have no frankly with
understanding of what it is going to be
like to be the Secretary of one of the
most controversial programs in modern
American history you have to go on
television and defend that every single
day a literal job requirement under
Donald Trump and you will have to have
extraordinary command of the facts you
have to have a very high intellect you
have to have the ability to really break
through and I mean we all watch how she
handled that situation with her dog and
her interviews and that does not give me
confidence that she will be able to do
all that well in the position what do
you think is behind that so Crystal PA's
theory on breaking points is that
there's some kind of interpersonal like
uh I didn't know
I I I should know this but I didn't know
any of the there was some cheating or
whatever there's a rumor nobody knows if
it's true that Cory leowski and kiry
gome had a previous relationship and
ongoing Cory lowski is a trump official
and that he may be put her in front I
don't know is this like The Real
Housewives of DC yeah kind of although I
mean it was the most Open Secret in the
World allegedly I don't know if it's
true okay all right Ian I I don't like
to traffic too much in personal theories
but I mean in this respect it might
actually be correct in terms of how it
all came down I have no idea what he's
thinking to be I truly don't um I mean
maybe it's like he was last time he said
I want a woman who's like softer and
like emotionally and the ability to be
the face of my immigration
program I mean again like I said I I
don't see it in terms of her experience
and her media it's frankly like not very
so you think she needs to be able to
articulate not just be like the softer
face of this radical yeah policy but
also be able to articulate the what's
happening with the reasoning behind all
yes you need to give justification for
everything here's the thing under Mass
deportation the media will drag up every
Saab story known to planet Earth about
this person and that person who came
here illegally and why they deserve to
stay and really what the Quasi thing is
that's why the program itself is bad and
we should legalize everybody who's here
IL legally okay so the thing is is that
you need to be able to have
extraordinary oversight you need a great
team with you you need to make sure that
everything is being done by the book the
way that the media is being handled is
that you throw every question back in
their face and you say you know you
either talk about crime or you talk
about the enforceability of the law the
necessity I mean I just I think
articulated a very coherent case for why
we need much less high levels of
immigration to the United States um and
I am the son of people who immigrated to
this country um but one of the favorite
phrases I heard from this from a guy
named Mark Koran who's a center for
immigration studies is we don't make
immigration policy for the benefit of
our grandparents we make immigration
policy for the benefit of our
grandchildren and that is an
extraordinary and good way to put it and
in fact I would say it's a Triumph of
the American system that somebody whose
parent family benefited from the
immigration regime and was able to come
here my parents had phds came here
legally applied spent thousands of
dollars uh through the process can
arrive at the conclusion that actually
we need to care about all of our fellow
American citizens I'm not talking about
other Indians or you know other whatever
I'm talking about all of us I care about
everybody who is here in this country
but fundamentally that will mean that we
are going to have to exclude some people
from the US and another thing that the
open borders people don't ever really
grapple with is that even within their
own framework it makes no sense so for
example a common leftwing talk point is
that it's America's fault that El
Salvador and Honduras and Central
America is fucked up and so because of
that we have a responsibility to take
all those people in because it's our
fault or Haiti right but you know if you
think about it America is responsible
and I'm just being honest for destroying
and ruining a lot of countries do they
they just don't benefit from the
geographic like ability to walk to the
United States so I mean if we're doing
grievance politics Iraqis have way more
of a claim to be able to come here than
any body from El Salvador who's talking
about something that happened in 1982 uh
So within its own logic it doesn't make
any sense uh even under the Asylum
process you know people I mean people
don't even know this you're literally
able to claim Asylum from domestic
violence okay uh there I mean imagine
that like that's frankly that is a local
law enforcement and problem of people
who are experiencing that in their home
country I know how cold-hearted this
sounds but maybe honestly it could be
because I'm Indian one of the things
that whenever you visit India and you
see a country with over a billion people
you're like holy shit you know this this
is crazy and you understand both the
sheer numbers of the amount of people
involved and also there is nothing in
the world you could ever do to solve all
problems for everybody it's a very
complex and dynamic problem and it's
really nice to be bleeding heart and to
say oh well we have responsibility to
this and to all mankind and all that but
just it doesn't work it doesn't work
with a nation state it doesn't work with
a Sovereign Nation we're the luckiest
people in the history of the world world
to live here in this country and uh it
you need to protect it and protecting it
requires really thinking about the
fundamentals of immigration itself and
not telling us stories like what there's
a famous moment from the Trump White
House where Jim aosta uh CNN White House
correspondent got into it with Steven
Miller uh the uh current you know who
will be the current Deputy Chief and he
was like what do you say something along
the lines to people who say you're
violating you know that quote on the
Statue of Liberty like give me you're
tired you're poor you're hungry uh all
of that the Emma lasarus quote and
Stephen very logically was like what
level of immigration comports with the
Emma lasarus quote is it 200,000 people
a year is it 300 is it 1 million is it
1.5 million and that's such a great way
of putting it because there is no
limiting principle on Emma aerus quote
there is when you start talking honestly
you're like okay we live in X Y and Z
Society with X Y andz GDP um people who
are coming here should be able to
benefit for themselves and us not rely
on welfare not you know be people who we
have to take uh take care of after
because we have our own problems here
right now and who are the population the
types of people that we can study and
look at who will be able to benefit and
based on that yeah immigration is great
but there are a lot of economic legal
and uh societal reasons for why you you
definitely don't want the current level
but another thing is even if we turn the
switch and we still let in a Million
million five people a year under the
chain Bas the chain family based
migration I think it would be a colossal
mistake because it's not rooted in the
idea that people who are coming to
America are explicitly doing so at the
benefit of America it's doing so based
on the familial connections of people
who already gained the immigration
system to be able to come here I have a
lot of family in India um and you know I
love them but and some of them are
actually very talented and qualified if
they wanted to come here I think they
should be able to apply on their own
Merit and that should have nothing to do
with familial status of the fact that
I'm a US
citizen like you mentioned the book
melting Potter Civil War by ryhan Salam
he makes an argument against open
borders the thesis there is a simulation
should be a big part MH I guess there's
some kind of optimal rate of immigration
which allows for simulation yeah and
there are es and flows that's kind of
what I was talking about historically
where you know I mean the truth is is
you could walk the streets of New York
City in the early 1900s and late 1890s
and you're not going to hear any English
and I think that's bad I mean really
what you had was ethnic enclaves of
people who were basically practicing
their way of life just like they did
previously bringing over a lot of their
ethnic problems that they had and even
some of their cultural like unique
capabilities or whatever bringing it to
America and then New York City Police
and others are figuring out like what
the hell do we do with all this and it
literally took shutting down immigration
for an entire generation to do away with
that and there's actually still some the
point about assimilation is twofold one
is that you should have the capacity to
inherit the understanding of the
American character that has nothing to
do with race and that's so unique that I
can sit here as a child of people from
India and has such a deep appreciation
for the Scots Irish um I consider myself
you know American first and one of the
things that I really love about that is
that I have no historical relationship
to anybody who fought in the Civil War
but I feel such kinship with a lot of
the people people who did and reading
the Memoirs and the ideas of those that
did because that same mindset of the
victors and the values that they were
able to instill in the country for 150
years later gives me the ability to
connect to them and that's such an
incredible Victory on their part and
that's such a unique thing in almost
every other country in the world in
China in India or wherever you're kind
of like what you what you are you're a
Hindu you're a Jew you're you know
you're Han Chinese you're we you or
you're Tibetan something like that it's
you're born into it but really here was
the only one of the only places in the
world where you can really connect to
that story and that Spirit and the
compounding effect of all of these
different people who have come to
America and that is a celebration of
immigration as an idea but immigration
is also a discreet policy and that
policy was really screwed up by the
Biden Administration and so we can
celebrate the idea and also pursue a
policy for all of the people in the US
our c citizens to actually be able to
benefit and um look it's going to be
messy and honestly I still don't know
yet if Trump will be able to pursue
actual mass deportation just because I
think that I'm not sure the public is
ready for it I do support Mass
deportation I don't know if the public
is ready for it um I think I don't know
I I'll have to see because there's a lot
of different ways that you can do it
there's mandatory e verify which
requires businesses to basically verify
or a US citizen or here legally whenever
they employ you which is not the law of
the land currently which is crazy by the
way um there's you know you can uh cut
off or uh tax remittance payments which
are payments that are sent back to other
countries like Mexico Honduras and
Guatemala again illustrating my economic
migrant Point um there are a lot of
various different ways where you can
just make it more difficult to be
illegally here in the US so people will
self-deport um but you know if he does
pursue like real Mass deportation that
will be a that will be a flas point in
America aren't you talking about things
like what what uh Tom Holman said that
works that raids of increasing the rate
of that yeah we used to do that you know
but but there's a rate at which you can
do that where it would lead
to I mean radical social upheaval yeah
it will I mean and I think some people
need to be honest here and this actually
flies in the face of uh I mean one of
the most common liberal critiques is
this is going to raise prices and yeah I
think it's true um I think it's worth it
but that's easy for me to say I'm making
a good living um if you care about
inflation you voted for Donald Trump and
your price of groceries or whatever goes
up because of this immigration policy uh
I think that needs to be extremely well
articulated by the president and of
course he needs to think about it um the
truth is is America right now is built
on cheap labor it's not fair to the
consumer it's not fair to the immigrants
the illegal immigrants themselves and
it's not fair to the natural born
citizen the natural born citizen has his
wages suppressed for competition by tens
of millions of people who are willing to
work at lower wages that compete for
housing for social services I mean just
even you know like basic stuff at a
societal level it's not fair to them
it's definitely not fair to the other
person because I mean whenever people
say like who's going to build your
houses or whatever you're endorsing this
quasi legal system where you know
uninsured laborers from Mexico they have
no guarantee of wages they're getting
paid cash under the table they are
living you know 10 to room they're
sending Mexican remittance payments back
just so that their children can eat I
mean that's not really fair to that
person either uh so that's the point the
point is is that it will lead to a lot
of social upheaval but this gets to my
kiry gnome Point as well is you need to
be able to articulate a lot of what I
just said here because if you don't it's
going to go south real quick uh the way
VC articulates this is that our uh
immigration system is deeply dishonest
like we don't acknowledge some of the
things he just said yeah exactly yeah
and he wants to make it honest so if we
don't do Mass deportation at least you
have to be really honest about the
living conditions about of illegal
immigrants about uh basically
mistreatment of them yes it's true I
mean you know if you support Mass
illegal migration you're basically
supporting a TENS of millions who are
living lives as second class citizens
that's not fair to them I also think
it's deeply paternalistic so there's
this idea that America has so ruined
these Central American countries that
they have no agency whatsoever and they
can never turn things around what does
that say about our confidence in them
you know one of the things they always
say they're oh they're law abiding
they're great people and all that I
agree okay by by and large I'm not
saying these are bad people but I am
saying like if they're not bad and
they're law-abiding and they're citizens
and thoughtful and all that they can fix
their own countries and they did in El
Salvador that's the perfect example look
at the dramatic drop in their crime rate
Buel is one of the most popular leaders
in all of South America that that is
proof positive that you can change
things around despite perhaps the legacy
of us intervention so you know to just
say this idea that you know because it's
America's fault that they're screwed up
it takes agency away from then you know
another really key part of this
dishonesty this really gets to
Springfield and the whole Haitian thing
because everybody you know beyond the
eating cats and dogs everybody does not
even acknowledge cuz when they're like
the Haitians are here legally they need
to actually think think about the
program the program is called TPS so let
me explain that TPS is called temporary
protected status note what's the first
word on that temporary what does that
mean TPS was developed under a regime in
which let's say that there was a
catastrophic I think this is a real
example I think there was like a volcano
or an earthquake or something uh where
people were granted TPS to come to the
United States and the idea was they were
going to go back after it was safe they
just never went back there are children
born in the United States today um who
are literally The Descent who are adults
who are the descendants of people who
are still living in the US under TPS
that's a perfect example of what VI says
is dishonest you know you can't Mass
deao legalize people by saying that
they're here temporarily because of a
program or because of something uh that
happened in their home country when the
reality is is that in for all intents
and purposes we are acknowledging them
as full legal migrants so you know even
the term migrant to these Haitians in
Springfield makes no sense cuz they're
supposed to be here under TPS that's not
migrant implies permanency so the
language is all dishonest and people
don't want to tell you about the things
I just said about chain migration you
know the vast majority of Americans
don't even know how the immigration
system works they don't understand what
I just said about TPS they don't really
understand the insanity of Asylum law
where you can just literally throw up
your hands and say I fear for my life
and you get to live here for four five
years before your court date even
happens and you know by that time get a
work permanent or whatever you can uh
you know you know get housing like you
just said in substandard conditions and
you can kind of just play the game and
wait before a deportation order comes
and even if it does you never have to
leave because there's no ice agent or
whatever who's going to enforce it so
the whole system is nuts right now we
need complete systematic reform that
burns it all to the ground that said
sort of the image and the reality of uh
a child being separated from their
parents seems deeply unamerican right
well I mean look it gets okay so you
know I'm not going to defend it but I'll
just put it this way uh nobody do you
hate children yeah see this is what I
mean do you think twice whenever you see
a drug addict who's put in prison and
their child is put in uh Protective
Services nobody in America thinks twice
about that right right so I mean well
that's kind of screwed up well what we
should think about why did we come to
that conclusion the conclusion was is
that these adults willingly broke the
law and pursued path of Life which put
them on a you know which put them on a
trajectory where the state had to come
in and determine that you are not
allowed to be a parent basically to this
child while you serve your debt to
society now CH separation was very
different CH separation was also a
product of extremely strange
circumstances in US immigration law
where basically at the time the reason
why it was happening was because there
was no way to prosecute people for
illegal entry without child separation
because previous Doctrine I believe it's
called the Flores Doctrine uh under it's
some Asylum lie people have to go check
my work on this but basically the the
whole reason this evolved is a legal
regime was because people figured out
that if you bring a kid with you because
of the so-called Flores Doctrine or
whatever that you couldn't be prosecuted
for illegal entry so it was a deao way
of breaking the law and in fact a lot of
people were bringing children here who
weren't even theirs who weren't they
weren't even related to or couldn't even
you know uh prove it were bringing them
to get around the prosecution for
illegal entry so I'm not defending child
separation I think it was horrible or
whatever but you know if I give you the
context it does seem like a very tricky
problem in terms of do we enforce the
law or not how are we able to do that
and the solution honestly is to what
Donald Trump did was remain in Mexico
and then pursue a complete rewrite of
the way that we have us Asylum law
applied and of Asylum adjudication
and really just about enforcing our
actual laws so when I try to explain to
people is the immigration system right
now is a patchwork of this deeply
dishonest such a great word uh deeply
dishonest system in which you use the
system and set it up in such ways that
illegal immigration is actually one of
the easiest things to do to accomplish
immigration to the United States that is
wrong my parents had to apply it wasn't
easy do you know in India there's a
Temple called the Visa Temple where you
walk 108 times around it which is like a
lucky number and if you do it when
you're applying for a visa to the United
States all right it costs a lot of money
and it's hard people get rejected all
the time there's billions of people
across the world who would love to be
able to come here um and many of them
want to do so legally and they should
have to go through a process the current
way it works is it's easier to get here
illegally than it is legally I think
that's fundamentally right it's also
unfair to people like us um whose
parents did come here legally Can you
steal me on the case against Mass
deportation what are the strongest
arguments the strongest argument would
be that these people contribute to
society that these people uh many of
whom millions of here have been here for
many years who have children
natural-born citizens because of
Birthright citizenship it would require
something that's fundamentally inhumane
and unamerican as you said the idea of
separating families you know across
different borders simply because of what
is a quote unquote like small decision
of coming here illegally and the best
Beyond any of this moral stuff for no
Mass deportation is it's good for
business um illegal immigration is great
for big business it is great for big
agriculture so if you want the lowest
prices of all time uh then yeah Mass
deportation is a terrible idea but first
of all very
convincing and second of all uh I you
can't just do Mass deportation without
also fixing the immigration system right
yes exactly and uh I mean there are
there are several pieces of legislation
Chart 2 that's something that the
Republicans have really coalesced around
it's a border bill I encourage people to
go read it and see some of the different
fixes to the US immigration system I'm
curious whether it'll actually pass or
not remember there's a very slim
majority of the House of Representatives
for Republicans this time around and
people vote for a lot of things when
they're not in power but when it's
actually about to become the law we'll
see um there's a lot of swing state
people out there who uh may think twice
before casting that vote so I'm
definitely curious to see how that one
plays out the other thing is is that
uh like I just said the biggest
beneficiary of illegal immigration is
big business so if you think they're
going to take this one lying down
absolutely not um they will fight for
everything that they have uh to keep
their pool of cheap labor um because
it's great for them uh you know I think
JD said a story I think it was on Rogan
about how he talked to a hotel chain guy
and he was just he was like yeah it's
just terrible you know it's like they
would take away our whole Workforce and
he was like do you hear yourself you
know in terms of what you're talking
you're bragging about but that's real
that's a real thing um and that you know
Tyson's foods and all these other people
like you know that's another really sad
part is what what I mean by second class
citizenship is this presumption first of
all that Americans think it's too
disgusting to process meat or to work in
a field I think anybody will do anything
for the right wage first of all um but
second is you know the conditions in a
lot of those facilities are horrible and
they're covered up for a reason not only
in terms of the way that businesses you
like they actually conduct themselves
but also to cover up their illegal
immigrant Workforce so honestly I think
it can make things better for everything
you have studied how government works
what are the chances Mass deportation
happens well it depends how you define
it so I mean Mass deportation could mean
1 million I mean nobody even knows how
many people are here illegally it could
be 20 million it could be 30 million uh
I've seen estimates of up to 30 million
which is crazy that's almost oneth of
the entire US population what number do
you think we feel like Mass deportation
1 million people a million people is a
lot I mean a lot it's a lot I mean but
the crazy part is that's only 11 12th of
what Joe Biden let in the country so
it's one of those that just to give
people the scale of what it will all
look like do I think Mass deportation
will happen it depends on the definition
will 1 million over four years yeah I
feel relatively confident in that um
anything over that it's going to be
tough to say like I said probably the
most efficient way to do it is to have
mandatory e verify and to have process
in place where it becomes very difficult
to live in the United States illegally
and then you will have mass self
deportation and they will take the
Victory lap on that but actual like
rounding millions of people up and
putting them in deportation facilities
and then arranging flights to God knows
all across the globe uh that's a
logistical nightmare it would also cost
a lot of money and don't forget Congress
has to pay for all of this so you know
we can have Doge or we can have you know
Mass deportation so those two things are
kind of irreconcilable actually there's
a lot of competing influences at play
that people are not being real about at
all yeah that was one of the tensions I
had talking to a is he's big on mass
deportation and big on making uh
government more efficient and it really
feels like there's a tension between
those two in the short term well yes
absolutely also I mean this is a good
segue I've been wanting to talk about
this I am sympathetic to Doge to the
whole department of government
efficiency how unreal is it that it's
called Doge actually with Elon it's
quite real I guess I've just you know
I've uh accepted Elon as a major
political figure in the US but the Doge
committee the department of government
efficiency is a nonstatutory agency that
has zero funding that Donald Trump says
will advise om the Office of Management
and budget now two things number one is
as I predicted uh Doge would become
quote unquote Blue Ribbon commission so
this is a non-statutory blue ribbon
commission that has been given authority
to VI ramaswami and to Elon Musk
secondary their recommendations to
government should be complete by July of
2026 according to the press release
released by Trump first of all what that
will mean is they're probably going to
need private funding to even set all
this up that's great not a problem for
Elon but you're basically going to be
able to have to commission GAO reports
government accountability office and
other reports and fact-f finding
missions across the government which
which is fantastic Trump can even
Empower you to go through to every
agency and to collect figures none of it
matters one iota if Republican
appropriators in the House of
Representatives care what you have to
say historically they don't give a shit
what the executive office has to say so
every year the president releases his
own budget um it used to mean something
but in the last decade or so it's become
completely meaningless the house Ways
and Means Committee and the people's
house are the ones who originate all
Appropriations and set up spending so
that's one is that Doge in and of itself
has no power it has no ability uh to
compel or force people to do anything
its entire case for being really if you
think about it mechanically is to try
and convince and provide a report to
Republican legislators to be able to cut
spending so that's that now we all know
what how Congress takes to government
reports and whether they get acted on or
not so that's number one number two
is the figures that Elon is throwing out
there I again I want to give them some
advice because people do not understand
federal government spending the absolute
vast majority of of government spending
is entitlement programs like Social
Security and Medicare which are
Untouchable under Donald Trump and their
most politically popular programs in the
world and military spending
discretionary non-military spending I
don't have the exact figure in front of
me is a very very small part of the
federal budget now within that
small slic about 90% of that eight is
bipartisan and is supported by like
everybody Noah the you know the
hurricane guys like people like that you
know people who are flying into the eye
of the hurricane people who are
government inspectors of X Y and Z the
parts that are controversial that you're
actually able to touch things like
welfare programs like food stamps is an
extraordinary small slice so there what
what's the number you put out there 5
trillion something like that there is
only one way to do that um and it
realistically under the current thing
you have to radically change the entire
way that the Pentagon buys everything um
and I I support that but I just want to
be very very clear but I haven't seen
enough uh energy around that there's a
there's this real belief in the US that
we spend billions on all of these
programs they're doing complete bullshit
but like the truth the absolute vast
majority of it is military spending and
entitlements Trump has made clear
entitlements off the table it's not
going to happen so the way that you're
going to be able to cut realistically
military spending over a decade long
period is to really change the way that
the United States procures you know
procures military equipment hands out
government contracts Elon actually does
have the background to be able to
accomplish this because he has had to
Wrangle with SpaceX and the bullshit
that Boeing has been pulling for over a
decade but I really want everybody's
expectations to be very set around this
just remember nonstatutory Blue Ribbon
so if he's serious about it I just laid
out all of these hurdles that he's going
to have to overcome and I'm not saying
him and Viv aren't serious dudes but you
got to really know the system to be able
to accomplish this so you just laid out
the reality of how Washington Works to
uh give the Counterpoint that I think
you're probably also rooting for is that
one is a statement like Peter teal said
don't bet against El sure uh one of the
things that you you don't usually have
with blue ribbon is the kind of
megaphone that Elon has true and I I
would even set the financial aspects
aside just the the influence he has with
the with the megaphone but also just uh
with other people who are also really
influential MH I think that can have
real power when backed by sort of a
populist movement I don't disagree with
you but let me give you a case where
this just failed so Elon endorsed who
for Senate Majority Leader Rick Scott
right who got the least amount of votes
in the US Senate for GOP leader Rick
Scott uh John th is the person who got
it now the reason I'm bringing that up
one of my favorite books Master of the
Senate uh by Robert Caro part of the LBJ
series the Senate as an institution it
reveres Independence it rever I mean the
entire theory of the Senate is to cool
down the mob that is in the House of
Representatives and to deliberate that's
its entire body they are set up to be
immune from from public pressure now I'm
not saying they can't be pressured but
that example I just gave on Rick Scott
is a very important one of you he
literally endorsed somebody for leader
so did Tucker Carlson so did a lot of
people online and only 13 Senators voted
for Rick Scott the truth is is that they
don't care like they're set up where
they're marginally popular in their own
home States um they'll be able to win
their primaries and that's all they
really need to do to get elected and
they have six-year terms not even up for
four years so will Elon still be
interested in politics 6 years from now
that's a legitimate question for
Republican senator so maybe he could get
the House of Representatives to sign off
maybe on some of his things but there's
no guarantee that the Senate is going to
agree with any of that there's a a story
that Kos tells in the master of the
Senate book which I love where Thomas
Jefferson was in Paris during the
writing of the Constitution and he asked
Washington he said why did you put in a
senate a by Camal legislature and
Washington said why did you pour your
tea into a saucer and Jefferson goes to
cool it and Washington says just so
that's to explain it he was a man of
very few words he was a brilliant man
okay so you actually outlined the most
likely thing that's going to happen with
Doge as it hits the wall of
Washington what is the sort of the most
successful thing that can be pulled off
the most successful thing they could do
is right now I think they're really
obsessed with
designing uh Cuts right and identifying
Cuts I would redesign systems systems of
procurement I would redesign the way
that we have processes in place to
dispense taxpayer dollars because the
truth is is that Appropriations itself
again are set by the United States
Congress but the way that those
Appropriations are spent by the
government the executive has some
discretionary Authority so your ability
as the executive to be a good Steward of
the taxpayer money and to redesign a
system which actually thinkon could be
good at this and VI too in terms of
their entrepreneurial spirit is the
entire Pentagon procurement thing it
needs to be burned to the ground number
one it's bad for the Pentagon it does it
gives them substandard equipment it uh
rewards very old weapon systems and
programs and thinking that can be easily
defeated by people who are studying that
for vulnerabilities the perfect example
is all of this drone Warfare in Ukraine
and in Russia I mean drone Warfare uh
costs almost nothing and yet drone
swarms and Hypersonic missiles pose huge
dangers to us systems which cost
hundreds of more than hundreds of
billions of dollars so my point is that
giving Nimble procurement and systemic
change in the way that we think about
executing the mission that Congress does
give you actually could save the most
amount of money in the long run that's
where I would really focus in on uh the
other one is you know counter to
everything I just said uh is maybe they
listen maybe the Republicans are like
yeah okay let's do it um the problem
again though is swing state people who
need to get reelected they need to do
one thing they need to deliver for their
District they need to run on stuff and
nobody has ever run on cutting money for
your state they have run on bringing
money to your state um and that's why
earmarks and a lot of these other things
are extraordinarily popular in Congress
is because it's such an easy way to show
constituents how you're working for them
whenever it does come reelection time so
it's a very difficult system and I also
want to tell people who are frustrated
by this I share your frustration but the
system is designed to work this way and
for two centuries the Senate has stood
as a bullwark against literally every
popular change and because of that it's
designed to make sure that it's so
popular for long enough that it has to
become inevitable before the status quo
can change that's really really
frustrating but you should take comfort
in that it's always been that way so
it's been okay well as I've as I've
learned from one of the recommendations
of uh the age of acrimony as I feel
embarrassed that I didn't know that
Senators used to not be elected what a
crazy system huh yeah I mean many of the
things we take for granted now as
defining our
democracy was was kind of invented
developed after the Civil War in the in
the sort of 50 years after the Civil War
absolutely correct age of acrimony oh my
God I love that book I cannot recommend
it enough it is so important and one of
the biggest mistakes that Americans make
is that we study periods where greatness
happened but we don't often study
periods where nothing happened or where
really bad shit happened uh you know we
don't spend nearly enough Americans know
about FDR they don't really know
anything about the depression or how we
got there um how what was it like to be
alive in the United States in 1840 right
nobody thinks about that uh really
because it's kind of an in between time
and history there are people who lived
their entire lives were born who had to
live through those times who were just
as conscientious and intelligent as you
and I are and were just trying to figure
shit out and things felt really big so
the age of acrimony is a time where it's
is almost completely ignored outside of
the guilded age aspect but like you just
said it was a time where Progressive
reform of government and of the tension
between civil rights extraordinary
wealth um and uh democracy and really
the reigning in of big business so many
of our foundations happened exactly in
that time and I take a lot of comfort
from that book because one of the things
I learned from the book is that voter
participation is highest when people are
pissed off not they're happy and that's
such a counterintuitive thing but voter
participation goes down when the system
is working so 2020 right I think we can
all agree it was a very tense election
um that's also why it had the highest
voter participation ever 2024 very high
rates of participation same thing people
are pissed off and that's actually what
drives them to the vote but something I
take comfort in that is that people
being pissed off and people going out to
vote it actually does have major impact
on the system because otherwise the
status quo is basically allowed to
continue and so yeah like you just said
I mean direct election of senators was I
mean there are probably people alive
today who are like who could who were
born when there was no direct election
of senators which is an insane thing to
think about I mean there'd be almost 100
or so but the point is is that that time
it was so deeply corrupt and it was one
where the Quasi arist Ry from the early
days leading into the guilded age were
able to enforce their will upon the
people but you can take comfort in that
that was one of those areas where
Americans were so fed up with it they
changed the Constitution and actually
forced the aristocrats in power to give
their own power yeah it's like our
version of when they flipped power and
took away uh the legislative power of
the House of Lords in the UK I just
think that's amazing and it's such a
cool thing about our country and the UK
too it's the continued battle between uh
the people and the elite right and we
should mention not just the uh direct
election of senators but the election of
uh candidates for a party yes that was
also invented it used to be that the
quote unquote party bosses I say that
with a half a chuckle uh uh chose the
candidate yeah the whole system is nuts
the way that we currently experience
politics is such a modern invention with
a little asteris with KL Harris but yeah
good Point um but uh well that was
actually more of a mean reversion right
we're living in an extraordinarily New
Era where we actually have more input
than ever on who our candidates are it
used to be uh this is crazy so the
conventions have always taken place two
months before right imagine a world
where you did not know who the pr
nominee was going to be before that
convention and the nominee literally was
decided at that convention by those
party bosses even crazier there used to
be a standard in American politics where
presidents did not directly campaign
they in fact did not even comment about
the news or mention their opponents
names they were they give speeches from
their doorstep but they it was unseemly
for them to engage in direct politics
you would not get a Bernie Sanders you
would not get a Donald Trump Obama Bill
Clinton I mean basically every president
from John F Kennedy onwards has been a
product of the new system every
president prior to that has been much
more of the older system there was a in
between period post FDR where things
were really changing but the primary
system itself had its first true Big Win
under John F Kennedy I think the lesson
from that is there's a collective wisdom
to the people right I think so I think
it works yeah I I mean well okay I'll
steal man it um we had some great
presidents in the party of B era FDR was
a great president um FDR was the master
of coalitional politics of his ability
in fact what really made him a genius
was his ability to get this overthrow
the support of uh a lot of the
corruption and the elite Democrats to
take part to take control in there at
the convention and then combine his
personal popularity to fuse all systems
of power where he had the he had the he
had the elites basically under his boot
because he was the king and he used his
popular power and his support from the
people to be able to enforce things up
and down um I mean you know even in the
party boss era uh we would have no uh a
lot of the a lot of the people we rever
really came out of that people like
Abraham Lincoln I mean I don't think
Abraham Lincoln would have won a party
Primary in 1860 there's no chance he won
he he won look thank god um from an
insane process in the 1860 Republican
convention people should go read about
that because that was wild I think we
were this close to not having Lincoln as
president and yeah I mean there Teddy
Roosevelt there's so many that I could
point to who made great impacts on
history so the system does find a way to
still produce good stuff that was a kind
of beautiful diversion from the Doge
discussion if you're turn briefly to
Doge sure um so we kind of talked about
cost cutting but there's also increasing
the efficiency of government which you
also kind of talked about with
procurement so and maybe we can throw
into the pile the 400 plus federal
agencies so let's take another
perspective on what success might look
like so like radically successful Doge
would it basically cut a lot of federal
agencies probably combin combine okay so
I can give great examples of this cuz I
have a great Insight like for each
agency will often use different like
payroll systems they'll have different
internal processes right that makes no
sense and it's all because it's
Antiquated now everybody always talks
about changing it but there are a lot of
like party interests about why certain
people get certain things the real
problem with government that people like
us who are private and like for example
when you want to do something you can
just do it um so I was listening to a
really interesting analysis about law
enforcement and the military so I think
the story was that the military was
assign some National Guard guys were
assigned to like help with the border
and they were trying to provide I think
it was translation services to people at
border patrol but somebody had to come
down and be like hey this has got to
stop according to us code X Y and Z the
United States military cannot help with
law enforcement you know abilities here
and so even though that makes absolutely
no sense because they're all work there
are literal legal statutes in place that
prevent you from doing the most
efficient thing possible so for some
reason we have to have a ton of Spanish
speakers in southcom you know in the uh
the US command that is responsible for
South America who literally cannot help
with a crisis at the border now maybe
you can find some legal chicanery to
make that work but man you got to have
an attorney general who knows what he's
doing you need a White House coun you
need to make sure that shit stands up in
a court of law I mean it's not so simple
whereas let's say you know you have a
software right here and you want to get
a new software you can just do it you
can you hire whoever you want when
you're the government there's a whole
process you got to go through about
bidding and it just takes for ever and
it is so inefficient but unfortunately
the inefficiency is really derivative of
a lot of legal statutes and that is
something that yeah again actually you
know radically successful do quote
unquote would be study the law and then
change it like figure instead of cost
cutting like cut this program or
whatever like I just said about why do
different systems use payroll just say
that you can change the statute under
which new software can be updated let's
say after 90 days you know I've heard
stories of people who work for the
government who still have like IBM
Mainframe that they're still in 2024
that they're still working CU those
systems have never been updated um
there's also a big problem with a lot of
this clearance stuff that's where a lot
of inefficiency happens because a lot of
contractors can only work based upon
previous clearance that they already got
achieving a clearance is very expensive
it's a very lengthy process I'm not
saying it shouldn't be uh talking about
security clearance but it does naturally
you know create a very small pool that
you can draw some contracts fund and I I
even mean stuff like like the janitor at
the Pentagon needs a security service
right so clearance so there's only like
five people who are or can even apply
for that contract well naturally in an
internal Monopoly like that he's going
to jack his price up because he
literally has a moat around his product
whereas if you or I are hiring a jant
whatever anybody uh for anything that
type of credentialism and legal regime
it doesn't matter at all so there are a
million problems like this that people
in government uh run into and that is
what I would see is the most successful
you know paperwork slows everything down
and it feels impossible to break through
that
in a sort of incremental way it's so
hard it feels like the only way to do it
is literally shut down agencies in some
kind of radical way and then build up
from from scratch of course as you
highlight that's going to be opposed by
a lot of people within government yeah
well historically there's only one way
to do it and it's a really bad answer
War yeah so I was going to say basically
you have the kind of consensus where
okay all this stupid bureaucratic
bullshit we've been doing we need to
like put that shit aside get the fuck
out of here we need to win a war so like
all the paperwork you don't all the
lawyers go go leave yeah yeah exact no
but I want people to really understand
that you know up until 1865 or 1860 what
I forget the exact year we didn't even
have National currency and then we were
like well we need a green back and prior
to that people would freak out if we
were talking about having National
currency green back backed by the you
know the US government and all that not
even a question passed in like two weeks
in the US Congress uh an income tax
eventually went away but not even in the
realm of possibility and they decide to
pass it same thing after World War I uh
and and you think about how World War II
I mean World War II just fundamentally
changed the entire way the United States
government works um even the DHS which I
mentioned earlier the department of
homand security it didn't even exist
prior to 911 it was done his response to
9/11 to coales all of those agencies
under one branch to make sure that
nothing like that could ever happen
again um and so historically
unfortunately absolute shit show
disaster war is the only thing that
moves the and throws the paperwork off
the table and I I wish I wasn't such a
downer but I've just I've both I've read
too much and I've had enough experience
now in Washington to just see how these
dreams get crushed instantly and uh I
wish it wasn't that way I mean it's it's
a cool idea and I want people who are
inspired who are getting into politics
to think that they can do something but
I want them to be realistic too and I
want them to know what they're signing
up for whenever they do something like
that and the Titanic amount of work it
is going to take for you to be able to
accomplish something yeah but I've also
heard a lot of people in Silicon Valley
laughing when uh Elon rolled in and
fired 90% of Twitter here's this guy
Elon Musk absolutely correct knows
nothing about running a social media
company of course you need all these
servers of course need all these
employees right and nevertheless the
service keeps running he figured it out
and you have to give him Eternal credit
for that I guess the difference is no
there was no law that he could fire him
you know there was no there was no um
like like at the end of day he owned the
company you know he had total discretion
of his ability to move so I'm not even
saying his ideas are bad I'm saying that
the ability that's that what makes him
such an incredible Visionary
entrepreneur it's movement it's
deference at times to the right people
but also the knowledge of every
individual piece of the machine and his
ability to come in and to execute his
full vision at any time and override any
of the managers so I talked previously
about the professional managerial class
and the managerial Revolution Elan is
one of the few people who's ever built a
multi-billion dollar company who has not
actually Fallen victim to the manag euro
Revolution and against entrepreneurship
and Innovation that happens there there
are very few people who can do it Elon
Steve Jobs but you know what are we
learn
is that unfortunately after Steve died
Apple basically did succumb to the manag
euro Revolution and has become like the
product you know they make all their
money by printing services and making it
impossible to leave this ecosystem as
opposed to building the most cool
product ever as much as I love my Vision
Pro don't get me wrong I think you just
admitted that you're part of a cult uh I
know I literally am I am I'm fully admit
it yeah yeah I miss Steve the grass is
green on the other side come come join
us okay whether it's on or somebody else
what what gives you hope about something
like a
radical transformation of government
towards efficiency towards being more
slim uh what gives you hope that that's
that would be possible well I wouldn't
put it that way I don't think slimness
in and of itself is a good thing what I
care about is the relationship to people
and its government so the biggest
problem that we have is that we have a
complete loss of faith in all of our
institutions um and uh I really enourage
people I don't think people can quite
understand what the relationship between
America and its government was like
after World War II and after FDR like
90% of the people trusted the government
that's crazy um like when the president
said something they were like okay he's
not lying uh think about our cynical
attitude towards politicians today that
is largely the fault of Lyndon Johnson
and of Richard Nixon um and that entire
Fallout period of Vietnam Vietnam in
particular really broke the American
character and its ability and its
relationship with government and we've
never recovered faith in institutions
ever since that and it's really
unfortunate so what makes me hopeful at
least this time is anytime a president
wins a popular vote and an election is
they have the ability to reset and to
actually try and build something that is
new and so what I would hope is that
this is different from the first Trump
Administration in which the Mandate for
Donald Trump is actually carried out
competently yes he can do his Antics
which got him elected you know at this
point we can't deny it McDonald's thing
is hilarious it's funny know it is uh
people love it uh people like the
podcasting people like garbage truck the
garbage truck yeah exactly they like the
stunts and he he will always Excel and
he will continue to do that there are
policy and other things that he can and
should do like the pursuit of no war
like uh solving the immigration question
and also really figuring out our economy
uh the way that it currently runs and
changing it so that the actual American
dream is more uh achievable and housing
is one of the chief problems that we
have right now the real thing is Donald
Trump was elected on the backs of The
Working Man I mean it's just true
households under $100,000 voted for
Donald Trump maybe they didn't do so for
economic reasons I think a lot of them
did for E for economic but a lot of them
did for immigration for cultural but you
still owe them something and there is uh
I would hope that they could carry
something out in that respect that is
not a similar continuation and chaotic
Vibe of the first time where everything
felt like it' explode at any time um
with Staffing with even his policy or
what he cared about or his ability to
pursue and a lot of that does come back
to Personnel so I'm concerned in some
respects I'm like you know not thrilled
in some respects I'm happy in some
respects but uh it remains to be seen
how he's going to do it to the degree
it's possible to see trumpism and Maga
as a coherent ideology what do you think
are the central pill pillars of it Maga
is a rejection of cultural elitism
that's what I would say cultural elitism
though has many different categories
immigration is one right is that
cultural elitism and cultural liberalism
has a fundamental belief that
immigration in and of itself is a
natural good at any and all levels that
all immigrants are like replacement
level that there is no difference
between them uh cultural elitism in a
foreign policy context uh comes back to
a lot of that human
rights democracy stuff that I was
talking about earlier which divorces
American values from American interests
and says that actually American values
are American interests uh cultural
elitism and liberalism leads to the
worship of the post Civil Rights era
burocracy that I talked about from those
two books of Dei of quote unquote woke
and of progressive social ideology so it
I would put all those together as
ultimately what Maga is it is a screw
you uh I once drove past it was in rural
Nevada and I was driving and I I drove P
the biggest sign I've ever seen
political sign to this Jay and it's just
it was in 2020 it just said Trump fuck
your feelings and I still believe that
is the most coherent Maga thing I've
ever seen because everyone's always like
how can a neocon and Tulsi gabard and
RFK and all these other people how can
they all exist under the same umbrella
and I'm like it's very simple all of
them have rejected the cultural Elite in
their own way certainly but they've
arrived at the same place it's an
umbrella and it's an umbrella
fundamentally which has nothing to do
with the status quo and with the you
know currently established cultural
Elite that doesn't mean they're not
Elite and they're not rich in their own
regards that doesn't mean they don't
disagree but that's the one thing that
unites the entire party and so that's
the way I would put it anti-cultural
Elite is that synonymous with
anti-establishment so basic Trust of all
institutions is elitism connected to
institutions yes absolutely because
Elites are the ones who runs our
institutions um that said
anti-establishment is really not the
right word because there are a lot of
left wiers who are anti-establishment
right they are against that but they're
not anticult sural leftism and that's
the key distinction between Maga and
like left populism left populism
basically does agree they agree with
like basic conceits like racism is one
of the biggest problem facing America
they're like one of the ways that we
would fix that is through class oriented
economic programs in order to address
that but we believe in I don't know like
reparations as a concept it's just more
about how we arrive there whereas in
Maga we would say no we actually don't
think that at all we think we've evolved
past that and we think that the best way
to fix it is actually similar policy
prescription but the mindset matters a
lot um so the real distinction between
Maga and like left populism really is on
culture Trans in particular um
orientation about actually immigration
may be the biggest one because if you
look at the history of Bernie Sanders
you know Bernie Sanders was a person who
railed against open borders and against
Mass migration for years there are
famous interviews of him on YouTube with
Lou dos who's one of the most hardcore
immigration guys and they agree with
each other and Lou is like Bernie's one
of the only guys out there Bernie at the
end of the day he had to succumb to the
cultural left and it changing attitudes
on mass immigration um there's some
famous clips from 2015 in a Vox
interview that he gave where he started
I think he started talking about how the
open borders is a coch Brothers
libertarian concept right because Bernie
is a basically of a European welfare
state tradition European welfare states
are very simply understood we have high
taxes High Services low rates of
immigration because we have high taxes
and high Services we have a limited pool
of people who can experience and take
those Services he used to understand
understand that he changed a lot of his
attitude um Bernie also I will say look
he's a courageous man and a courageous
politician you know as late as 2017 he
actually endorsed a pro-life candidate
because he said that that pro-life
candidate was you know Pro worker and
he's like at the end of the day I care
about pro-worker policy he took a ton of
shit for it and I don't think he's done
it since so the sad part that's really
happened is that a lot of left populist
you know uh agenda and other has become
subsumed you know in the h ARA around
cultural leftism wokeism whatever the
hell you want to call it and that
ultimately that cultural leftism was the
thing that really United you know the
two wings of that party and that's
really why Maga is very opposed to that
they're really not the same but the left
populace can still be anti-establishment
that's the key it's interesting to think
of the left cultural
Elite subsuming consuming Bernie Sanders
the left populace so you think that's
what happened that's what I would say
what do you think happened 2016 with
Bernie is there a possible future where
he would have won you and Chrystal wrote
a book on populism in 2020 so from that
perspective just looking at
2016 if he rejected wokeism at that time
by the way that would be pretty gangster
during
2016 would he have because I think
Hillary went towards the left more right
am I remember that correctly it was a
very weird time so uh yes and no it
wasn't full-on BLM Mania like it was in
2020 but the signs were all there uh so
the great awokening was in 2014 I know
it's a ridiculous term I'm I love it
please keep
saying just to give the origin the Great
Awakening is about the great religious
revival in the United States so people
had you know because wokeism is a
religion you know that's a common
refrain they were like the great
awokening is a really good term so thank
you for explaining the joke yeah yeah so
the great awokening is basically when
racial attitudes amongst college
educated whites basically flipped on its
head there are a variety of reasons why
this happened um I really believe that
tanesi coats's case for reparations in
the Atlantic is one of those it
radicalized an entire generation of uh
basically like white college educated
women to think completely differently on
race it was during Ferguson and then it
also happened immediately after the
Trayvon Martin case those two things
really set the stage for the eventual
BLM takeover of 2020 but fun Al what
they did is they changed racial
attitudes amongst college educated
Elites to really think in a race first
construct and worse is that they were
rejected in 2016 at The Ballot Box by
the election of Donald Trump and in
response they ramped it up because they
believed that that was the framework to
view the world that people voted for
Trump because he was racist and not for
a variety of other reasons that they
eventually did and so the point around
this on question of whether Bernie could
have won in 2016 I don't know Crystal
seems to think
so I'm skeptical uh I'm skeptical for a
variety of reasons I think the culture
is honestly one of them one of Trump's
core issues in 2016 was immigration and
Bernie and him did not agree on
immigration and if immigration you know
even if people did you know support
Bernie Sanders and his vision for
workingclass people like the debates and
the understanding about what it would
look like like a Health Care system
which literally would pay for illegal
immigrants I think he would have gotten
killed on that um but I could be wrong I
honestly I will never know you know what
that looked like let me uh reference you
from earlier in the conversation with
FDR it's not the policy I think if he
went more anti-establishment and more
populist as opposed to trying to court
trying to be friendly with the DNC yeah
I mean that's a good counterfactual
nobody will really know look I I have a
lot of love for the Bernie 2016 campaign
uh he has a great ad from 2016 called
America you should watch it it's a great
ad it's that's another very interesting
thing it's unapologetically patriotic
and that is not something that you see
um in a lot of left-wing circles these
days so he understood politics at a base
level that a lot of people did not um
but you know Bernie himself and then a
lot of the Bernie movement was basically
crushed uh by the elite Democratic party
for a variety of reasons they hated them
you know they basically they attacked
Joe Rogan for even having him on um and
for uh giving him a platform that was
ridiculous obviously backfired in their
face which is really funny there is uh
but there were a lot of million examples
like that you know when they attacked
Bernie for uh endorsing a pro-life
politician he never did it again they
attacked Bernie for run for having
Bernie Bros you know people online the
Bros who were super bro Bernie and it
was his fault his supporters would say
nasty things about Elizabeth Warren and
he would like defend straight himself
and be like yes I'm sorry you know
please my Bros like stop that I think
that his biggest problem is he never
went full Trump that he didn't go like
he kept saying sorry yeah I agree I
totally agree actually in 2020 I did a
ton of analysis on this at the time he
would always do stuff like Joe Biden my
friend and it's like no he's not your
friend he stands for everything that you
disagree with everything he'd be like
yeah he's a nice guy but he's not my
friend but he would always be like Joe
and I are great friends but you know you
we have a small disagreement on this but
you know like you just said in terms of
going Trump they wanted to see Trump up
there humiliating all of the GOP
politicians that they didn't trust
anymore that's what people really wanted
but the other side of this is that the
Democratic base in 2020 was very
different than 2016 because by 2020 they
full-on had TDS and they were basically
like we need to defeat Trump at all
costs we don't give a shit what your
name is Bernie Biden whatever whichever
of you is going to be best defeat Trump
you get Nam 2016 is different because
they didn't fullon have that like love
and necessity of winning by the way this
is a strategic advantage that the
Democrats have Democrats just care about
winning the current base of the party
all they want to do is win Republican
base they don't give a shit about
winning they just love Trump so it's
it's nice to win uh but one of those
where they will Express their ID for
what they really want now it's worked
out for them because it turns out that's
a very palpable political force but one
of the reason reasons why you know you
won't see me up here doing James
Carville 40 more years is there is a law
of something called thermostatic public
opinion where you know the thermostat it
changes a lot uh whenever you actually
so when you have a left-wing president
in power the country goes right when you
have a rightwing president in power
country goes left amazing right uh you
can actually look at a graph of economic
attitudes from the two months where Joe
Biden became president after Donald
Trump so Republicans Trump was President
the last you're in office economy is
great 2 months later the economy is
horrible that is a perfect example of
thermostatic opinion and I'm not
counting these Democrats out 2004 George
W bush wins the popular vote he has a
historic mandate to continue in Iraq by
06 he's toasted we have a massive
midterm election and by 08 we're writing
books about 40 more years and how
there's never going to be Republican and
office ever again so things can change a
lot in a very short period of time I
think also for me personally maybe I'm
deluded sort of the great man view of
History I think some of it it's in the
programming circles the term skills
issue I think some just has to do how
good you are how charismatic you are how
good you are as a politician I maybe you
disagree with this I'd love to see what
you think I think if Obama if you were
allowed to run for many terms I think
Obama would just keep winning he would
win 2016 he would win 2020 he would win
this year 2024 it's possible but I would
flip it on you and I would say Obama
would never be elected if there were no
term limits because Bill Clinton would
have still been president yeah so well
those two right that's two examples of
exactly they extremely skilled
politicians and somehow can appear like
populists man Bill Bill Clinton was a
force in his time and it's honestly sad
what's happened to him uh I was actually
just talking with a friend the other day
I'm like I kind of don't think that
President should become president when
they're young because they live to see
themselves become
and that must be really painful because
I know what it takes to get there
imagine being Clinton I mean your entire
Legacy was destroyed with Hillary
Clinton in 2016 and then imagine being
Obama who in 2016 You could argue it's a
one-off and say that Trump is just oh
Hillary was a bad candidate but Michelle
and Barack Obama went so hard for kamla
Harris and they just got blown out in
the popular vote I mean the Obama era
officially ended with Donald Trump's
reelection to the presidency in 24 and
that was a 20year period where Obama was
one of the most popular Central figures
in American politics but I want to
return to what you're saying because it
is important and by the way I do not
support term limits on American
presidents are you a fascist well that
would imply uh that would imply that I
don't believe in democracy I actually do
believe in democracy because I think the
people if they love their President
should be able to reelect him I think
FDR was amazing I think that the term
limit change was a basically what
happened is
is that Republicans and a lot of elite
Democrats always wanted to speak against
FDR but he was a God so they couldn't so
they waited until he died and then after
he died they were like yeah this whole
third fourth term that can never happen
again and America didn't really think
that hard about it they were yeah okay
whatever but I mean it had immense
consequences for American history
Clinton is the perfect example I mean
just IM Bill Clinton left office even
despite the Lewinsky bullshit he had a
60% appr Ral writing okay no way George
W bush gets elected impossible Clinton
would have blown his ass out and imagine
the consequences of that we would have
no Iraq I mean I'm not saying he was a
great man like he we probably still
would had the financial crisis and
there's still a lot of bad stuff that
would have happened but he was a popular
dude and you know I wouldn't say had the
best Judgment at at at times
presidentially not person definitely not
personally uh but you know
presidentially but I'm pretty confident
we would have not gone into the Iraq War
and so that's where it really cost us if
you're left wi and you're talking about
Obama yeah I think Obama probably would
have won in 2016
although it's a counterfactual because
Obama was never challenged in the same
way that Maga was able to to the liberal
consensus like Romney really ran this
like awful campaign honestly about
cutting spending it was very traditional
Republican was deeply unpopular the
autopsy uh of that election was we
actually need to be more pro-immigration
that literally was the autopsy um but
Trump understood the assignment uh there
are two people who I so deeply respect
for their political bets Peter teal and
Donald Trump so one of the books that I
recommended called the unwinding by
George Packer he actually talks about
Peter teal there this is in 2013 and
teal talks about he was like you know
whoever runs for office next they don't
need to run on an optimistic message
they need to run on a message that
everything is fucked up and that we need
to and if you think about that's why
Teal's endorsement of trump with the
American Carnage message is I mean it
took it was shocking right at the time
but he had that fundamental Insight that
that's what the American people wanted
Trump too comes out of an election in
2012 where the literal GOP autopsy the
report produced by the party says we
need to be Pro Mass immigration what
happens immediately after 2012 they
start to go for Mass IM basically they
go for like these amnesty plans the
so-called gang of eight plan Marco Rubio
and all of this in 2013 it falls apart
but Republicans get punished by their
base in
2014 so Eric caner who was the House
Majority Leader the number two
Republican spent more on stake in his
campaign than his primary opponent who
successfully defeated him a guy named
Dave brat Dave brat kicked his ass on
the issue of immigration and said that
Eric hter is pro amnesty all of the
forces were there and then in 2015 Trump
comes down the escalator and he gives
the message on immigration that the GOP
base has been roaring and wanting to
hear now but that nobody wanted to
listen to them and that was his
fundamental Insight that bet was a
colossal and a Titanic political bet at
a time when all political ideology and
thought process would have said that you
should come out on the other side which
is where Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz and
all these other guys were effectively
there you know in varying different ways
like they were hawkish or whatever but
Trump was just so had such a monopoly on
that as an idea that's why he wins a
2016 primary and then paired with
immigration a Hardline position on
immigration is this American Carnage
idea that actually everything is wrong
the American dream is is has gone you
know we will we will stop this American
Carnage and I think American Carnage is
one of the most important inaugural
speeches ever given in American history
it's put it up against every single
other speech there's nothing else like
it but that was what the country wanted
at the time and uh that's what great
politicians are able to do is they're
able to sus something out that's also
why Peter teal is who he is um because
he saw that in 20 imagine you know what
it takes to come out of the 2012
election to be and to be honestly
totally contrarian to the entire
National mood and this entire theory of
Obama esque star politics and say no you
need somebody who runs on the opposite
of that to win well we'll never know and
I love this kind of Mike Tyson versus
Muhammad Ali I still think I would have
loved to see Obama versus Trump me too I
agree and first of all Obama versus
Trump in 2008 Obama wins hands down well
yes definitely so this is I love how
this is a boxing talk yeah now when 2016
Obama has a bunch of you know he Iraq
and Afghanistan he's vulnerable though
I'll tell you why DACA that's what
nobody ever talks about in the Obama
Trump thing don't forget Obama takes his
2012 victory
basically says oh the GOP even now
agrees with me on immigration and then
he does DACA and he legalizes you know x
million in a number of illegal
immigrants who are here who are brought
here as children that also fundamentally
changed the immigration consensus on the
Republican side because they were like
wait holy shit you can just do that
because we don't agree with that at all
and that really ignited the base as well
so I'm not sure I mean a moment I think
about a lot uh with Trump and just like
being able to un leashed The Rage of the
Republican bases uh in the 2012 debate
Candy Crowley was the moderator with
Mitt Romney and she fact checked him
famously uh this was when factchecking
was shocking in a pres and uh she said
something about Benghazi and she was
like no he did say that she like
corrected Romney on behalf of Obama to
this day it's questionable whether she
was even right but and Romney was just
like oh he did okay Trump would have
been like excuse me excuse me be like
look at this woman in you know he would
have gone off and I was like like and I
think about that moment because that's
what the Republican base wanted to hear
but also it turns out America had a lot
of fering feelings about the mainstream
media that it needed Unleashed and Trump
was just this incredible Vector to just
blow up this system which I mean if you
ask me about optimism that's the thing
I'm most optim yeah but don't you think
Obama had a good sense in how to turn it
on how to BN establishment correctly I
will not deny that he's one of the most
talented politicians literally to ever
play the game um and he is I mean just
unbelievable rhetorical Talent it it
look is a counterfactual would he been
more talented than Hillary yeah okay no
question in terms of uh in terms of
anybody would have been uh for that one
but at the same time all the signs were
there all the signs for the Trump
Victory and for the backlash against
Obama ISM kind of as a political project
it all existed you know the T if you
like I just laid the te leaves out there
from 2012 to 2015 in retrospect it's the
most predictable thing in the world that
Donald Trump will get elected but it was
crazy in the moment I got to live
through that which was really fun like
professionally I think uh it's
unfortunate that he kind of uh let K
Harris borrow his reputation oh it's
it's I mean it's like you know better
dude you know you defeated these people
this the Clinton machine you destroyed
them and it was awesome in ' 08 what
what is that why do you what why did he
like he's so much bigger and better than
the machine I don't get it's interesting
right yeah it's so weird the I I just
think I think this was a wakeup call
2024 was a wakeup call like the the DNC
machine doesn't work absolutely I mean
there needs to be new blood new new
candid new Obama likee candidates well
I'm glad you brought that up because
that's important too in terms of the
process and the way that things uh
currently stand the DNC actually rigged
its entire primary system under Biden
way to the uh not to the benefit of
Obama so for example you know how they
moved away from the Iowa caucuses and
they actually moved some other primaries
and move the calendar to reward
traditional states that vote much more
in line with the Democratic
establishment so the story of Barack
Obama is one that not many actually
probably a lot of young people today
don't even remember how it happened in
2008 Obama was the underdog right and
actually here's the critical thing Obama
was losing with black people why black
Democrats simply did not believe that
white people would vote for a black guy
so Barack Obama goes to this white State
Iowa Allin on the Iowa caucuses and
shocks the World by winning the Iowa
caucuses overnight there is a shift in
public opinion amongst the black
population in South Carolina that says
oh shit he actually could win and he
comes out and he wins South Carolina and
that's basically was near the death
Nowell for the Hillary Clinton campaign
the problem is by moving South Carolina
up and by making it first along with
other more pro-establishment friendly
places what do we do we make it so that
Barack Obama can never happen again we
make it so that an older you know base
of democratic party voters who listens
to the elites can never have their
assumptions challenged and that's one of
the worst things Joe Biden did you know
I talked about his arrogance he was so
arrogant he changed the freaking primary
system he was so arrogant he refused to
do a debate I mean imagine history how
lucky are we honestly that Joe Biden
agreed to do that debate with Donald
Trump early and again that was his
arrogance um I think we're so lucky for
it because if we hadn't got
we got to understand as a country how
cooked he was and how fake everything
was behind the scenes in front of all of
our eyes and they tried for three
straight years to make sure that that
would never happen so I mean it's still
such a crime honestly against the
American people I've been thinking about
who I want to talk to for three hours
and that's why I bring up Obama cuz
he's probably the number one person on
the left I would like to he analyze what
happened in this election and what
happened to the United States of America
over the past 20 plus years I can't
imagine anybody else look if anybody
could do it it be you but there are
layers but upon layers with that man I
would love to actually sit with talk
with him for real I think it's fair to
say that we talked about the great
man view of History I think you have a
psychopath view of History where all
great leaders are for sure Psychopaths
not for sure there are many who are good
people Harry Trum you're like some of my
best friend Harry Trum TR I assume are
good people uh to be fair though most of
the good ones are accidents like Harry
Truman He never would have got himself
elected he was a great dude how do you
know he's a great dude uh David McCulla
book I highly recommend it everybody
should read it Truman Truman loved his
wife I think that's really awesome I
love when politicians love their wife
it's so rare um he adored his wife he
adored his daughter spent time with them
he made Family Life a priority he had
really good small town judgment that he
would apply to Foreign Affairs he was
just a very well-considered uh very
standup man uh and I I so appreciate
that about him uh another one is John
Adams I love and rever John Adams he's
my favorite Founding Father him and John
Quincy they don't get nearly enough of
their due they were some of the most
intelligent well-considered they were
family men he you know the the love the
love the relationship between joh and
Abigail Adams is literally legendary and
I think it's amazing you know especially
in the context of the 1700s the way that
he would take her counsel and into uh
conversations and her own ability and
she she would sit there and go
toe-to-toe as much with Thomas Jefferson
there are some who are great who are
really really good presidents who have
good judgment and who are really good
people and really think deeply about the
world and have really cool personal
lives but there's also the vast majority
of them especially in the I would say
espe especially in the modern era and
where the price of the presidency
extracts everything that you have you
have to be able to you have to be
willing to give everything and it's just
that's not a price that most people want
to pay is it
possible that some of the people who you
think are sociopaths in politics are in
fact really good people and some of the
people you think are good like Truman
yeah and Adams are actually sociopath
definitely I mean I could just be
reading the wrong books right yeah
that's right sounds like you're uh you
just read some really compelling
biographies well I okay to be fair I
don't base this on one book I read a lot
of them um and I'll get like a for
example I've read books about LBJ you
wouldn't know any of his foibles but
then you find out that they're written
by his friend or you know it was written
by and read the I I really worry about
this kind of General especially now the
the sense of the the anti-establishment
sense that every politician must be a
sociopath now while could
the reason I worry about that is it
feels
true yeah so it's uh you can fall into
this uh bubble of beliefs where every
politician is a sociopath and because of
that it can be a self- reinforcement
self I understand what you're saying I
agree by the way we do need to
dramatically change it but the problem
is is that you know people vote with
their eyeballs and with their interest
and people love like to you know dissect
people's personal lives uh and one of
the reasons why you were probably more
likely in the pre-modern era to get a
quote unquote good people is they were
not subject to the level of scrutiny and
to the insanity of the process that you
are currently like I just said about you
I mean theoretically you could run for
president and you would just get your
nomination at the convention it's only
two months to election day that's not so
bad but you know you run for president
today you got your ass on the road for
two years and then two years before that
and then you have to run the damn
government so the price is so
extraordinarily High I also think that
oh God and just Washington is a system
it will burn you it will just it will
extract absolutely everything that you
can give it and at the end of the day
you know I mean everyone always talks
about this it's hilarious uh how Trump
is the only President not to age in
office I think I actually think it's
crazy like when you look at the photos
of how he actually looks better today
than he did whenever he went into the
office uh that's amazing and it actually
says a lot about how his mind works I
think Trump is pure ID like I think he's
having observed him a little bit and you
know both at the White House and having
interview with him it's pure just like
it's calculating but it's also pure ID
which is very interesting the ones who
are the thinkers guys like Obama and
others who are really in their heads
it's a nightmare it's a nightmare it
will they will they I mean I mean
apparently Obama would only sleep four
hours a night you know yeah add like
some empathy on top of that it's going
to destroy you it will it will kill you
man all right speaking about about the
dirty game of politics several people
different people told me uh that of
everyone they have ever met in politics
Nancy Pelosi is the uh the best at
attaining and wielding political power
is there any truth to that in the modern
era yeah I think that's fair in the last
25 years definitely uh let's think about
it number one is longevity so she's had
the ability to control the caucus for a
long period of time so that's impressive
because as I just laid out with Clinton
Obama these figures come and they go but
over 25 almost year period you've been
at the very top and the center of
American politics the other case I would
be is that in this modern era has been
defined by access to money she's one of
the greatest fundraisers in Democratic
party history and again consistently
Obama kamla all those people come and go
but she's always had a very Central
understanding of the ability to fund
raise to cultivate good relationships
with Democratic party Elites all across
the country use that money and Dole it
out to her caucus she's also was really
good at making sure that legislation
that came to the floor actually had the
votes to do so she ran an extremely
well-ordered process in the House of
Representatives one in which you were
able to reconcile like problems within
her office it didn't usually go public
and then it would make it to the floor
and it would pass so that there would be
no General like media frenzy uh and you
know Democrats in disarray or any of
that put that on display with the
Republicans and we've had multiple
speakers all resign or get fired in a
16-year per period that's pretty
remarkable basically ever since John
Boehner decided to leave in what was it
2012 I forget the exact Year my point is
that if you compare her record to the
longevity on the Republican side it is
astounding the other interesting thing
is that she also has pulled off one of
the real tests of political power is can
you rule even when you don't have the
title anymore so she gave up the leader
position to hakeim Jeff but everybody
knows she pulled Joe Biden out of the
race that's pretty interesting right so
she's a technically Just a backbencher
Nobody member of Congress but we all
know that's bullshit uh so that's that's
actually a very important case of
political power is can you rule without
the title and if you can then you truly
are powerful so I would make a good case
for her yeah she's uh she's done a lot
of remarkable stuff for for her party I
will say they played Trump like a Fiddle
Man last time around they were able to I
mean they really got him uh one of the
craziest elements that I covered was
during the Trump
basically threatened to shut down the
government and actually did shut down
the government for a period of time over
a dispute over border wall funding and
Pelosi and Schumer despite like genuine
Mass hysteria in the Democratic party
with even some people who are willing to
try and to strike a deal never wavered
uh and actually uh basically won and
forced Trump to back down uh not a lot
of Maga people want to admit it but that
was honestly really embarrassing for the
Trump administration at the time and
yeah I mean the amount of discipline
that it took for her and Chuck to a
lesser extent but for the two of them to
pull that off it it was honestly
impressive that they were able to do
that even when the president has so much
political power and it literally shut
down the government over it speaking of
fundraising uh KLA raised $1 billion
insane but I guess the conclusion is she
spent it poorly how would you uh spend
it I don't think money matters that much
I think Donald Trump has proven to us
twice that you can win an underdog
campaign through earned media and I
don't think that paid advertisement uh
moves the needle that much now don't
notice I didn't say it doesn't matter
but am I buying $425,000 a day spots on
the Vegas sphere no we're not doing that
are we building can okay as people who
do this for a living how do you even
spend $100,000 to build a set for one
interview this is the call her daddy the
call her daddy thing okay how is that
possible so think about the dollar per
hour cost that's like running a jet
airplane in terms of what they did you
know what I want to know behind the
scenes haven't got and I'm not good with
this I get really frustrated and I
shouldn't but dealing with PR and comms
people can sometimes break my soul it's
maddening can we not talk about this we
need to pull them at 22 p.m. and you're
like but that's only 30 minutes you know
it's like yeah that but there's stuff
like like where to put the camera it's
not that I don't it's not actually
hypothetically I don't even disagree
with any of the suggestions or this but
it's like the micromanagement just the
micromanagement and your and the
politeness but the fake politeness and
it just makes me feel like I think like
what would kurick do would he murder all
of them right now he would just ban them
after he became Stanley cubric but he
dealt with it for a while by way I just
went on a cubric uh binge man he was
awesome I watched that World War I movie
of his the one from the 50s that
such an underrated film I I feel like
people don't app whatever we'll get past
yeah but she yeah I guess she paid for
100 grand bro 100 and the Oprah thing
she paid for the interviews so you know
that's another one I do this for a
living and as you can tell I'm a very
cynical person I did not even know that
celebrities got paid for their
endorsements I could never have imagined
a universe where Oprah Winfrey has paid
$1 million to endorse K Harr
I'm like you're first of all you're a
billionaire um second I thought you do
this CU you believe no I I think to be
fair I think the million just helps do
the thing you you would like to do it's
like a it's a nudge because I don't
think any celebrity would endorse like
yeah they're not doing it because of the
money but you should just do it for free
I I can't even believe that you're doing
this for money I mean and the fact what
was it Alanis moriset you know how they
were able they had to cut her because
they didn't have the funds to pay her
I'm like first of all if you believe you
should just play for free but second
again as a person who is deeply cynical
I still am genuinely shook that we are
paying celebrities for their endorsement
yeah it's really fucked up that's insane
why do you think people on the left who
are actually in the political Arena are
afraid of doing anything longer than an
hour that is a great question so so let
me just say probably most of the people
I've talked to on this podcast are
leftwing mhm or have been for a long
time uh they just don't sort of out and
say it like most scientists are
left-wing most sort of uh vaguely
political people are leftwing that I've
talked to yeah but the closer you get to
the actual political Arena and I've
tried really
hard they just is the NOP I had a bunch
of people the highest profile people say
15 minutes 20 minutes yeah and I like
I'm used to that so welcome
yeah I I just can't you know like I
can't imagine uh a conversation with KLA
or with Joe
Biden uh or ALC Obama or Obama That's of
any quality at all of any shows any kind
of humanity of the person The Genius of
the person the the interesting Nuance of
the person in like 30 minutes like I
just can't I can't like I don't know
maybe there's people that are extremely
skilled that can do that you just can't
you should be optimistic because a huge
narrative out of this election is that
the Democrats massively fucked up by not
coming on this show or Rogan show so I
actually fundamentally number one that's
going to change dramatically so be
optimistic and keep pushing but two is
this is a good segue actually is I've
been thinking a lot about I know a lot
of people listen to this show who are in
Tech and may have some influence on the
admin so this is kind of uh some this is
something I want people to take really
seriously is I was a White House
correspondent for the Daily Caller it's
a conservative Outlet in Washington
during the Trump years and the most
important thing I learned from that was
that under the White House
correspondence Association the way that
the media cartel has everything set up
for Access for press to the president is
fundamentally broken anti-American and
bad for actual democracy so let me lay
this out at a very mechanical level
because nobody knows this and I was a
former White House correspondent
Association member so anybody who says
I'm full of shit I was there for example
number one all the seats in the briefing
room those seats are assigned by the
White House Correspondents Association
not by the White House itself the White
House correspondence Association
requires you to apply for a seat right
that adjudication process can take
literally years for bylaws elections and
all these things to do this means that
they can slow roll the entrance of New
Media online Outlets who are allowed
into the room the reason it really
matters not having a seat is if you
don't don't have a seat you have to get
there early and stand in the wings like
I used to and raise your hand like this
and just hope and pray that the press
secretary can it's extremely
inconvenient I'm talking I have to get
there hours early at a chance during a
15minute briefing so one of the things
is that Trump has is he owes a huge part
of his election to coming on podcasts
and to New Media now because of that
it's really important that the White
House correspondence Association which
is a literal Guild cartel that keeps
people out of the White House and
credentials itself and creates this
opaque mechanism through which they
control access you know to asking the
press secretary questions is destroyed
and there are a lot of different ways
you can do this because the what nobody
gets too is that all of these rules are
unofficial so for example they're just
Traditions the White House is like yeah
it's our building but you guys figure it
out right because that's a longstanding
tradition let me give you another insane
tradition that currently exists in the
White House the Associated Press the why
press secretary or the Associated Press
correspondent gets to start the briefing
traditionally they get the first
question they also get to end the
briefing when they think it's been
enough time they be like okay uh cring
joh Pierre thank you right and that
calls the briefing over what who you're
not even the White House correspondence
Association you literally just happen to
work for the Associated Press why like
why do we allow that to happen so number
one stop doing that uh to their credit
the Trump people didn't really do that
but it's a long-standing tradition the
other thing is that what nobody gets
either is that the first row is all
television networks for logistical
reasons so that they can do their little
standups with their mic and say you know
I'm reporting Ling for the W well what
people don't seem to know is that all
the television networks are basically
going to ask some version of the same
question the reason they do that is
because they need a clip of their
correspondent going after the White
House Press Secretary all about Robert
Mueller like whenever I was there so you
get the same godamn version of the
stupid political questions over and over
again the briefing room is designed for
traditional media and they have all the
access in the world so in an election
where you owe your Victory to at least
in part to New Media and recognizing the
changing landscape you need to change
the conduit of information to the
American people and in an election uh I
don't know if you saw this but election
night coverage on cable news was down
25% just in 4 years 25% that's that's
that's cable news had a monopoly on
Election night for my entire lifetime
and yet my show had record ratings that
night and I'm look I'm small slice of
the puzzle here we've got uh uh Candace
Owens Patrick B David Tim P David Pacman
tyt all these other people every from
what I understand all of us blew it out
that night because millions of Americans
watch it on YouTube we we even partnered
with the some decision desk HQ so we had
live data we could make State calls and
we're just a silly little YouTube show
my point though is that in an election
where the vast majority of Americans
under the age of 55 are listening to
podcast consuming New Media and are not
watching cable news where the median age
of CNN which is the youngest viewership
is 68 68 is the median so statistically
what does that tell us right there's
there's a uh a decent number of people
who are watching CNN who are in their
80s and in their 90s yeah I'm glad you
brought up Alex CU he deserves a
tremendous shout out Alex Bruce witz he
was the pioneer of the podcast strategy
uh for the Donald J Trump campaign he
got on your show he was able to get on
Andrew Schultz's show Rogan he was the
internal force that pushed a lot of this
my personal hope is that somebody like
Alex is elevated in the traditional
White House bureaucracy that the number
of credentials that are issued to these
mainstream media Outlets is cut and
there's a new Lottery process put in
place where people with large audiences
are invited and I also want to make a
case here for why I think it's really
important for people like you and others
who don't have as much traditional media
experience to come and and practice some
capital J journalism because it will
sharpen you too giving you access in
that pressure cooker environment and
having to uh to really like sit there
and Spar a little bit with a public
official and not have as long
necessarily as you're used to it really
hones your news media skills your news
Gathering skills and it will make you a
better interviewer in the long run
because a lot of the things that I have
learned have just been through osmosis
I've just lived in DC I've been so lucky
I've had a lot of cool jobs and I've
just been able to experience a lot of
this stuff so I'm really hoping that
people who are listening to this who may
have some influence or even the
viewership if you want to you know reach
out to them and all them this is a very
easily changeable problem it's a cartel
which has no official power it's all
power by tradition and it inst simply
blown up it has it does not serve
America's interest to have 50 48 seats I
think in the White House Press briefing
room to people who have audiences of
like five it's just makes absolutely
zero workspace seats access credentials
and also credentials that are issued to
press uh and to other like New Media
journalists at major events should take
precedence because it's not even about
rewarding the Creator the American
people are here you need to meet them
that's your job and I'll just end with a
a historic thing Barack Obama shocked
the White House Press score in 2009
because he took a question from The
Huffington Post a brand new blog but
they were stunned because he knew he
said these blog people they went all in
for me and I got to reward them so
there's long-standing precedents of this
they'll bitch and they'll moan they'll
be upset but it's their fault you know
that they don't have as much credibility
and it's incumbent upon the White House
which serves the public to actually meet
them where they are so I really hope
that at least some of this is
implemented inside of that yeah if you
break apart the cartel I think you can
actually enable greater journalism
frankly with the capital J because
actually in a long form is when you can
do better journalism of from even just
the politician perspective you can
disagree you can get criticized because
you can defend yourself I had an idea
actually you tell me what you think I
think a really cool format would be uh
there's a room uh right near the Press
briefing room called the Roosevelt room
beautiful room by the way it's awesome
um it has the Medal of Honor for Teddy
Roosevelt and it has a portrait of him
and a portrait of FDR it's one of my
favorite rooms in the White House it's
so cool and so my idea would be in the
Roosevelt room which is traditionally
used for press briefings and stuff uh is
like you as press secretary sit there I
think there's like 12 seats something
like that and you set it all up and you
have let's say sure microphones like
this and that person that secretary is
going to commit to being there for like
2 hours and and New Media people like
consider around the room all of this
being streamed live by the way just like
the White House Press briefing room but
the expectation is that the type of
questions have to be substantive
obviously nothing is off limits you
should never ever uh you know accept I'm
not going to be ask about this
especially as a journalist you can't do
that every time they're like hey please
don't ask about this it's like actually
that's probably one thing you should ask
about um but my point being that the
expectation is is that there's no
interference on the White House side but
that the format itself will lend exactly
to what you're saying to allow people to
explain and again in a media era where
we need to trust the consumer like my
show is routinely over 2 hours long on
cable television uh on cable television
you know the Tucker Carlson program
whenever it was on Fox news without
commercial breaks was about 42 43
minutes something like that of runtime
so I'm speaking for almost triple what
that is on a regular basis the point is
is that millions are willing to sit and
to listen but you just have to meet them
where they are so I would really hope
that a format like that uh like a
streamer briefing or something like that
I think I think it's look I know they
would dunk on it endlessly but I think
it could work yeah I I think the
incentives are different I think it
works because you don't have
to uh like you Saga don't have to signal
to the other journalists that you're
part of the click oh I'm so glad you
brought that up because that was another
lesson I learned I go oh none of you are
asking important questions for the
people you're asking questions because
you all hang out with each other and
you're like oh wait so this entire thing
is a self-reinforcing guild to impress
each other uh at cocktail parties and
not to actually ask anything interesting
um I remember people were so mad at me
because this was 2018 or maybe 2017 and
I said do you think that Kim Jong-un is
sincere in his willingness to meet with
you something like that to that effect
um they were Furious because I didn't
ask about some bullshit political
controversy that was happening at the
time so in the historical Legacy what
was more important the Mueller question
or Donald Trump breaking 50 years or
whatever of tradition with America's
relationship with North Korea and
meeting him in Singapore and basically
resetting that relationship for all time
as you can tell I read a lot of book I
like to take the Long View every time I
would ask a question I go okay when I
when the future Robert Caro is writing
books and he he sees he's reading the
transcript of the White House Press
briefing he doesn't even know who this
kid is he goes that was a prettyy good
question right there that's pretty
relevant you know you got to think about
all the bullshit that gets left on The
Cutting Room floor I love that view of
Journalism actually the the the goal is
to end up as as one line at a history in
a history book 50 years from now want a
quote of what the president said to
something that I asked in a book that I
would be happy I would die happy with
that if you told me that when I'm like a
90-year old man I'd like man I that
means I succeeded yeah when the AIS
write the history of human civilization
one of the things I continuously learn
from you when looking back their history
is how
crazy American politics has been
throughout history it makes me feel a
lot better about the current days it
should corruption yes um just the the
divisiveness also the stealing elections
yes at all levels of government and
direct stealing and indirect stealing
all kinds of stuff so uh is there stuff
that jumps out to mind throughout
history there just like uh um the
craziest Corruptions or stealing of
Elections that come to mind I'll give
the micro and the macro so my favorite
example is uh Robert Caro who I obious
probably talked about him a lot uh God
bless you Robert I hope you live to
write your last book because we really
need that from you um but Robert uh came
to Texas he only intended on writing
three books about lynon Johnson he's
currently completed four is on his 5ifth
and it's Tak him over 40 years to write
those and one of the reasons is he just
kept uncovering so much stuff and one of
them is book two means of ascent he
never intended to write it but as he
began to investigate lynen Johnson's
1948 senate election he realizes in real
time how rigged and stolen it was and so
I often tell people what if I told you
that we lived in the most secure
election period in modern history they
wouldn't believe it but if you read
through that shit I'm talking about bags
of cash millions of dollars literal
stuffed ballot boxes it's great to be
back here in Texas because I always
think about that place like down in
Zapata and star County I'm talking like
basically Mexico um where these Dawn
were in power in the 1940s and they
would literally stuff the ballot boxes
with the rolls and they wouldn't even
allow people to come and vote they just
check marked it all for you based upon
the amount that he paid means of ascent
is the painstaking detail of exactly how
Lynden Johnson stole the 1948 senate
election and so no nothing like that as
far as I know is still happening macro
uh we can talk about the 1876 uh
election ruford B Hayes one of the
closest elections in modern history it
was one of those that got kicked with
the house of representa that was an
insane insane time the corrupt bargain
that was struck to basically end
reconstruction and federal occupation of
the South and of of course the amount of
Wheeling and dealing that happened in
inside of that was absolutely Bonkers
and nuts that was what an actual stolen
election looks like just so people know
uh so on a micro and a macro yeah that's
what it really looks like uh and so look
I understand where people are coming
from Also let's do what 1960 that was
pretty wild I mean uh in 1960 there was
all those allegations about Illinois
going for Kennedy um if you look at the
actual vote totals of Kennedy Nixon wow
I mean it's such an insanely close
presidential election and even though
the Electoral College Victory looks a
little bit differently Nixon would
openly talk about he's like oh old Joe
Kennedy uh rigged Illinois for his boy
and he be like and we didn't even have a
chance in Texas with Lynden pulling you
know like lynon lynon stuff in the
ballot boxes down there so and this is
open on the like they openly admit this
stuff they talk about it so uh actually
there's a funny story uh LBJ lost is uh
I think it's
1941 Senate primary um and it's because
the his opponent Papio Daniel actually
out stole lynon so they're both corrupt
but Papio Daniel stuffed The Ballot Box
in like the fifth day of the seventh
days to count the votes and FDR loved
LBJ and uh it's interesting right that
FDR recognized Johnson's uh his talent
and he goes Lyndon you you know in New
York we sit on the back boxes till we
count them you know cuz he's admitting
that he you know you know participated
in a lot of this stuff so this highlevel
chicanery of stolen elections is
actually uh an American Pastime that we
luckily have moved on from um and and
quite a lot of people do not know the
exact intricate details of how Wild it
was back in the day yeah it's actually
one of the things it's harder to pull
off a bunch of bullshit with all these
cameras everywhere now transparency too
lack of cash banking regulation there's
a variety
yeah so that said let's talk about the
2020 election M seems like forever ago
do you think it was rigged the way that
Trump claimed no and was it rigged in
other ways look this is the problem with
language like rigged and by the way when
I interviewed VI ramaswami he said the
exact same thing so for all the magga
people who are going to get mad at me uh
Viv agrees all right and if okay I I I
have observed and I'm going to put my
analyst hat on there are two theories of
stop the steel one I call low IQ stop
the steel and one I call high IQ stop
the steel low IQ stop the steel is
basically what Donald Trump has
advocated uh where you know Dominion
voting machines and bamboo ballots and
Venezuela and Sydney Powell and all the
people involved basically got indicted
by the state of Georgia I'm not saying
that that was correct I'm just like
that's what that actually looked like
Rudy Giuliani Etc high IQ stop the steal
is basically and actually I mean these
are not illegitimate arguments the
school of thought is it was illegitimate
for the state of Pennsylvania and other
swing states to change mailin balloting
laws as a response to covid which
enabled millions of people more to vote
that wouldn't have and that those change
in regulations became enough to swing
the election I actually think that that
is true now would you say that that's
rigged that's a very important question
because we're talking about a Republican
state legislature and Republican state
supreme court right the two that
actually ruled on this question so could
you say that it was rigged by the
Democrats to do that another problem
with that theory is that while you can
say that that's unfair to change the
rules last time around you can also
understand it to a certain extent and
I'm not justifying it I'm just giving
you an example so for example after Hur
the hurricane hit North Carolina
Republican officials were like hey we
need to make sure that these people who
in Western North Carolina who were
affected by the hurricane could still be
able to have access to The Ballot Box
and people were like oh so you're saying
in an extraordinary circumstance that
you should change voting you know access
and regularity to make sure that people
have access so my point is you can see
the logic through which this happened
and the high IQ version is basically the
one that was adopted by Josh Holly
whenever he voted against certification
he said that the the state penssylvania
particularly election law and that those
changes were unfair and led to the quote
unquote rigging the election against
Donald Trump now there's an even higher
IQ Galaxy brain stop the steel Galaxy
brain stop the steel is one that you saw
with great love and respect my friend JD
Vance uh at his debate with Tim wals
when Tim wals asked him what did he say
he said he said did Donald Trump win the
2020 election he's like Tim I'm focus on
the future and then he started talking
about censorship the hunter Biden laptop
story uh if you take a look at the Joe
Rogan interview Rogan actually asked JD
this he's like what do you mean you in
the election some version of that and JD
was like well what I get really
frustrated by is people will bring up
all these insane conspiracy theories but
they ignore that the media censored the
hunter Biden laptop story and that big
Tech had its finger on the thumb for the
Democrats now that is empirically true
okay that is true right now would you
say that that's rigged I'm not going to
use that word because that's a very
different word now would you say that
it's unfair yeah I think it's unfair um
so there's another there's a lot of Maga
folks uh picked up on this one there's a
Time magazine article in 2020 that's
very famous in their crowd called you
know the the it was like the fight to
fortify the election and it was about
all of these institutions that put their
fingers on the scale for Joe Biden
against Donald Trump so I would put it
this way was Donald Trump up against the
Titanic forces of billionaires Tech
censorship and Elite institutions who
all did a absolute damnest to defeat him
in 2020 yes that is true and in a sense
the Galaxy brain case is the only one of
those which I think is truly legitimate
and I'm not going to put it off the
table but this is the problem that's not
what Trump means you know Trump he Trump
by the way will never tell you what I
just told you right JD will if you go
and you ask any of these Republican
politicians when they're Challen on it
and they don't want to say that Trump a
lost a 2020 election they'll give the
the Galaxy brain case that I just gave
and again I don't think it's wrong but
it's like guys that's not what he means
when he says it and that's the important
parsing of the case right so first at a
high level Trump or otherwise I don't
like anyone who whines when they lose
period yeah although he did tell you he
lost did you notice that that's the only
time he's ever said it ever you're
you're famous you're in history for that
one lost by a whisker yeah lost by a
whisker
uh I mean there there is a case to be
made that he was joking I don't know um
but there is a kind of weaving that he
does with a humor where sometimes it's
sarcasm sometimes not much easier to
Showcase in a three-hour interview I'll
say good call go ahead I couldn't even
like play with that when you have 40
minutes I know bro you're
like you know I could do just 40 minutes
on weaving alone for your style it
doesn't work and I can tell you how the
way I interview politicians is I just do
pure policy so when I the first time I
interviewed Trump I compiled a list of
15 subjects me and my editor uh Vince
colier shout out to Vince and the two of
us sat in an office and then we had
questions by priority in each category
and if we felt like we were running
short on time we would move around those
different ones but that was purely he's
the president we're asking him for his
opinions on an immigration bill or
whatever for what you do it's impossible
to do for yeah I I just want to
say that thank you for everybody
involved for making my conversation with
Donald Trump possible but I've learned a
lot from that that I just if if I'm told
that all I have is 40 minutes I'm very
politely sparing in that case Donald
Trump the 40 minutes and just walking
away because I don't think I can do a
good job I think that is the correct
decision on your part yeah um and I also
would encourage you to have the
confidence at this point that you are in
a position of something that we call in
the business the ability to compel the
interview and by
to compel means to be able to bring
somebody else to you and not the other
way around and uh I think that you and
Rogan and a few others are in that very
unique position and I would really
encourage you guys to stick to your guns
on things that make you feel comfortable
um because you know those of us in news
we will always negotiate we'll we're
willing to do short form because we're
asking about policy but for the style
that you help popularize and I think
that you're uniquely talented and good
at that's very important not to
compromise on so thank you for saying
those words and that's not just in the
interest of Journalism in the interest
of conversation it's the interest of the
guests as well right absolutely toing
out the best in them yeah I mean I would
feel really at a disservice uh and I
would feel like people would not get a
unique uh understanding of like my own
thought process and my backstory if I
was not able to sit here for literally
hours and to explain in deep detail like
how I think about the world not that
anyone cares that much but you know it's
just like I hope all I can do is I hope
it's helpful I want to help people think
uh because because when I was growing I
was grow up not far from here 90 minutes
from here in College Station I felt uh
very uniquely closed off from the world
and I found the world through books and
books saved my life they many so many
different times and uh I hope to
encourage that in other people I I
really no matter where you are no matter
who you are no matter how busy you are
you have some time uh to either sit down
with a book or put on an audio book and
you can transport yourself into a
different world it's so important and uh
that's something that your your show
really helps me with too I love
listening to your show whenever
sometimes when I'm too into politics and
I need to listen to something I'll
listen to that Mayan historian guy I
love stuff like that absolutely I've
been a deep dive on jenus Khan uh
reading jenus Khan and then making uh
the modern world yeah Jack Weatherford
fantastic he's coming on is he yeah
amazing and again shout out to Dan
Carlin the goat the OG Dan I've never
met you before I would love to
correspond at some point I love you so
much you changed my life man I met him
once before and it felt I mean interview
him I was Star Struck very very Star
Struck and his mean he just so much
painful tainment I've listened to many I
think his best series one of his best
series he gets no credit for Ghost of
the OS frun nobody gives him credit for
that one that's OG this is 2011 series
but his uh his ghost of the OS front on
the Eastern front of the Nazi war
against Russia fundamentally changed my
view of warfare forever and also at that
time I was very young and to me World
War II was Saving Private Ryan I wasn't
as well read as I am now and I was like
oh shit this entire thing happened which
actually decided the second world war
and I don't know anything about this uh
so shout out to Dan God bless you man
and his quote unquote short
episodes uh I think on slavery in
general throughout human history that
was an awesome episode I actually bought
a bunch of Hugh Thomas books because of
that episode I'd never really read about
African slavery or the slave trade
outside of the Civil War context so
again shout out to him for that one that
was an amazing episode his Japan series
too I'm going to Japan in a few days and
I keep thinking of what he always talked
about in his Supernova in the East the
Japanese are like everyone else but only
more so and uh God I love that quote
okay he's great and we I
ironically arrived at this tangent while
talking about the 2020 election
yeah that's why podcasting is fun uh cuz
you said lost by a whis yeah and now
we're dragging us screaming back to the
topic uh one of the things I was
bothered
by is Trump claiming that there's
widespread as you're saying low IQ
Theory the widespread voter fraud and I
saw no evidence of that that he provided
MH and all right well that's let's put
that on the table and then the other
thing I was troubled by that maybe you
can comfort me in the context of History
how
easily the base ate that up yeah that
they were uh able to believe the
election was truly rigged based on no
clear evidence that I saw and they just
love the story and and there is
something compelling to the story that
you know like this DNC type like with
Bernie The Establishment just they
they're corrupt and they
steal the will of the people uh and like
the uh lack of uh desire from the base
or from people to see any evidence of
that what really troubled me yeah uh I'm
going to give you one of the most
depressing quotes which is deeply true
Roger alses who is a genius shout out to
the loudest voice in the room by Gabriel
Sherman that book changed my life too um
because it really made me understand
media people don't want to be informed
they want to feel informed that is one
of the most fundamental media insights
of all time what a line Roger alses uh a
genius a genius in his own right who you
know he changed the world he certainly
did he uh you know he's the one who kind
of gets credit for one of the greatest
debate lines of all time because he was
an adviser to President Reagan whenever
he broke in he was like Mr President
people want to know if you're too damn
old for this job or not and he inspired
that joke uh that Reagan made where he
was like I I will not use age in this
campaign I will not hold my opponent's
Youth and inexperience against him that
was als's man you got he he did the
Nixon Town Halls he did it all he's a
fucking genius um and I'm not advocating
necessarily for the world he created for
us but he did it and uh people should
study him more if you're interested in
media in particular that book is one of
the most important books you'll ever
read yeah you know what that that quote
just really connected with me because
uh you know there's all this talk about
truth and I think what people want to
they want to feel like they're in
possess posession of the truth correct
not actually being the possession of the
truth yeah I know it's one of the it hit
me too actually Russell Crow does an
amazing job of delivering that line in
the showtime miniseries so if you have
the chance you should watch it and look
this is the problem liberals will be
like yeah see these idiot Republicans
I'm like yeah you guys have bought a lot
of crazy stupid shit too okay and if
actually I would say liberal
misinformation quote unquote is worse
than Republican disinformation because
it pervades the entire Elite media like
or Cambridge analytica or any of these
other hoaxes that have been voed on the
American people the people who listen to
The Daily and from The New York Times
are just as brainwashed lack of informed
want to feel informed as people who
watch Fox News so let me just say that
out there it's an equal opportunity
cancer in the American Football actually
we started early on in the conversation
talking about bubbles
M um what's your advice about how to uh
figure out if you're in a bubble and how
to get out of it oh that's such a
fantastic question unfortunately I think
it comes really naturally to someone
like me because I'm the child of
immigrants and I was raised in col
Station Texas so I was always on the
outside um and when you're on the
outside uh this isn't a Sab story it's a
deeply useful skill because when you're
on the outside you're forced to kind of
observe and you're like oh so like when
I was raised was the Bible Belt and
people really uh you know people were
hardcore Evangelical Christians and I
could tell I'm like oh they really
believe this stuff and you know they you
always trying to prze and all of that
and then the other gift that my parents
gave me is I got to travel the entire
world I probably visited 25 30 countries
by the time I was 18 and one of the
things that that gave me was the ability
to uh just put yourself in the brain of
another person so one of the reasons I'm
really excited to go to Japan and I
picked it as a spot for my honeymoon was
because Japan is a first world developed
country where the vast majority of them
don't speak English it's disting
distinguished nonwestern and they just
do shit their own way so they have a
Subway but it's not the same as ours
they have restaurants things don't work
the same way they have you know I could
go a laundry list their entire
philosophy of life of the daily Rhythm
even though it merges with service-based
managerial capitalism and they're
fucking good at it too they do it their
own way so exposure to other countries
in the world gave me and also just being
an outsider myself gave me a more
detached view of the world so if you
don't have that what I would encourage
you is to flex that muscle so go
somewhere that makes you uncomfortable
um this will be a very Boomer take but I
hate the fact that you have 5G
everywhere you go in the world because
some of the best experiences I've ever
had in my life is walking around Warsaw
Poland trying to find a bus station to
get my ass to Lithuania with a printed
out bus ticket I have no idea where the
street is I have I'm in a country where
not that many people speak English we're
pointing and gesturing right and I
figured it out and it was really use I
got to meet a lot of cool Polish people
uh same in Thailand I've been in rural
like bum fuck Thailand Colombia places
where people speak zero English and your
ability to gesture and use pigeon uh
really connects you and gives you like
the ability to uh to get an exposure to
others and so I know this is a very like
Wanderlust like travel thing but
unironically if you're raised in a
bubble pierce it like that's the answer
is seek something out that makes you
uncomfortable so if you're raised Rich
you need to go spend some time with poor
people and consider that they might
actually understand the world better
than you well in some respects so I
think a lot of rich people have really
screwed up personal lives so if you're
poor and you really value family you say
oh that's interesting there seems to be
a fundamental trade-off between
extraordinary wealth and something that
I value but what can I take away from
that person oh put my money in index
funds uh make sure that I am
conscientious about my budgeting and
common sense shit right and uh uh s vice
versa people who are very wealthy get so
caught up in the rat race about their
kids going to private school and all of
this and then you know they very rarely
engage with there's that famous study
where they ask people on their deathbed
like what they valued in life and every
single one of them was like I wish I'd
spend more time with my children um I
think about that every time that I am
thinking about pursuing a new work
Endeavor or something that's going to
have me spend significant time away from
my wife and uh I'm almost always these
days now that I've achieved a certain
level of success the answer is I'm not
doing it unless you can come with me one
of the bubbles I'm really concerned
about is San Francisco bubble I visit
there recently because there's I have so
many friends there uh that I respect
deeply there so many brilliant people in
in San Francisco AB the Silicon Valley
but there's just
this um I don't even want to criticize
it but there's definitely a bubble yeah
of thought I'm with you I'm friends with
some SV Silicon Valley people as well
I'm similarly struck by that uh every
time I go and honestly I do admire them
because they what I respect the most
amongst entrepreneurs business and
political thinkers is systems thinking
nobody thinks systems better than people
who are in Tech because they deal with
global shit right not even just America
they have to think about the whole world
about the human being and his
relationship technology and coding in
some ways is an expression of the human
mind and about how that person wants to
achieve this thing and how you
mechanically can type that into a
keyboard or even code something to code
for you to be able to achieve that
that's a remarkable accomplishment I do
think those people and people like that
too who think very linearly Through Math
and they're the Geniuses are the ones
who can take their creativity and merge
it with linear thinking but I do think
that that actually those are the people
who probably most need to get out of the
bubble check themselves a little bit and
look it's really hard you know once you
achieve a certain level of economic
success and others like what do most
rich people do they close thems off from
the world right that's a the vast
majority of the time what do you do
economy is annoying flying they fly
first class uh living in a small house
is annoying they buy a bigger house uh
dealing with a of these inconveniences
of life is annoying you pay a little bit
more to make sure you don't have to do
that there's a deep Insidious thing
within that each one of those individual
choices uh where the more and more
removed that you get from that the more
in the bubble that you are so you should
actually seek out those experiences or
create them in a in a concerted
way speaking of
bubbles Sam Harris oh uh he has
continued to criticize me directly and
indirectly I think unfairly but I love
Sam I deeply respect him everybody
should listen to The Making Sense
podcast it always makes me think uh it's
definitely in the rotation for me that's
uh that's very admirable of you I mean
he's I think one of
the sharpest minds of Our
Generation and for a long time I looked
up to him it was one of the weird
moments for me to meet him cuz you
listen to somebody for such a long time
I feel that way with you I'm serious
yeah it it was it's ATI beautiful moment
I mean same with Joe and it's it's it is
one of the most surreal moments of your
life uh to be able to meet somebody who
you spend like hours listening to I
actually think about that when people
come up to me because I'm like oh
they're feeling what I felt whenever I
yeah and you have to like you see it you
feel it and you have to celebrate that
because there is an intimacy to
it um it's I think it's real that people
really do form a real connection a real
friendship it happens to be one way but
I think it actually can um upgrade to a
two-way pretty easily it happens with me
like in in a matter of like five minutes
when I meet somebody at or something
like that anyway uh Sam took a pretty
strong position on Trump and has for a
long time yeah he has been
consistent and unwavering so he he
thinks that Trump
is a truly dangerous person mhm for our
democracy for maybe for the world um Can
you steal man his position well see I
think a lot of this podcast has been
steal manting it because Sam is a big
Character Matters guy like he focuses a
lot on Trump's personality by the way
I'm like you I've listened to samur for
years I bought his meditation app so
nobody's going to accuse me of being
some Sam Harris hater I listened to him
for way before long before even Donald
Trump was elected that's how far back I
go with the Sam Sam Harris podcast I
have a lot of respect for the dude I I
enjoy a lot of his older interview I do
think after Trump he did succumb a
little bit in my opinion to the elite
liberalism view both of the impetus
behind Donald Trump and why he was able
to be successful so in some ways very
denigrating to the Trump voter but also
a fundamental misunderstanding of the
American presidency because like I said
he really is the one who believes that
that narcissism that character and all
of that that makes Trump tick itself
will eventually override any potential
benefit that he could have in office and
I just think that's a really wrong way
of looking at it and um I mean for
example I I had this debate with Crystal
and uh this gets to the whole uh Trump
you know talking about the enemy from
within and she was like he wants to
prosecute his political opponents do you
disagree with that and I was like no I
don't and she was like so you're not
worried about it and I go no I'm not and
she's like well how do you square that
and I was like well I actually
unironically believe in the American
system of institutional checks and
balances which kept him quote unquote in
check last time around I also believe in
democracy where you know this is really
interesting but you know in 2022 a lot
of the Republicans who were the most
vifer about stop the steel they got
their asses kicked at The Ballot Box you
know Americans also then in 2024 decided
to forgive some of that from Donald
Trump it's definitely didn't help right
but they were able to oversee that for
their own interests as in democratically
people are able to weigh in terms of
checks and balances what they should and
should not challenge a politician by but
also we have the American legal system
and I also know the way that the uh
institutions in Washington themselves
work that you know fundamentally the way
that certain processes and other things
could play out will not play out to some
hitlerian fantasy and this gets to the
whole like KLA and them calling him a
fascist and Hitler you know you and I
probably spent hours of our Liv maybe
more uh thinking and reading about
Hitler wear Germany and and I just find
it so insulting you know because it
becomes this moniker of like bash you
know like these terms have meaning
beyond the Beyond just the dictionary
definition the circumstances through
which Hitler is able to rise to power
are not the same as today it's like stop
denigrating America to the point where
you think like really you should flip it
around why do you think America's wart
Germany that's a ridiculous thing to say
do you on ionically believe that no you
don't believe that so that is uh
personally what drives me a little bit
crazy and I think that Sam has found
himself in a mental framework where he
is not willing he's not able to look
past the man and his quote unquote
danger and at the end of the day his
worldview was rejected wholly by the
American people and that cu the
character argument the fascist argument
the Hitler argument the he is uniquely
bad argument has been run twice before
2016 and in 20 actually all three times
I guess it won in 2020 but two out of
the three times Donald Trump has won the
presidency and in his latest one where
that argument has never been made before
for a longer period of time and More in
strength by a political candidate was
rejected completely and I would ask him
to reconcile himself to the America that
he lives in I I think one thing maybe to
partially Steelman his case but also
just uh Steelman the way the world works
is that there is some probability that
KLA
Harris uh will institute a communist
state and there is some probability that
Donald Trump will indeed that like will
fly a
swasa with and uh Deport I don't know
everybody who's not Scot Irish like I
don't know yeah you and Irish grw then
maybe is there a spirit test okay like
but that probability is small and you
have to if you allow yourself to focus
on a particular
particular uh trajectory with a small
probability it can become
all-encompassing cuz you could see it
you could see a path there are certain
character qualities to Trump yes where
he wants to hold on to power first of
all every politician wants to hold on to
power Joe Biden uh maybe because he's
part of the machine can't even conceive
of the notion of a third term but he has
the arrogance to want to hold on to
power do everything he can absolutely
and like with Trump I could see that if
it was very popular for him to have a
third term I think he would not be the
kind of person who doesn't advocate for
a third term so what that would require
the Senate and the house or 70 what is
it 75% of the states to pass and uh
change the Constitution do you think
that's going to happen no I don't think
it's going to happen so I'm not that
worried about it now you can make a
Norms argument and I actually think
that's kind of fair is that he's the
Norms Buster but you know with
extraordinary candidates and people like
Trump you get the good and the bad there
is a true Duality like the Norms he bust
around foreign policy I love the Norms
he bust around the economy I love the
Norms he bust around just so much of the
American political system saying it how
it is ETC I love that you know what I
hate this 2020 election bullshit you
know what else I hate you know this I
don't know just the the the lack of
discipline that I would want to think
that a great leader could have like when
he was president tweeting about M
brazinsky facelift that was objectively
ridiculous like it was crazy okay was it
funny yeah but it was crazy like and
it's not how I would conceive and have
conceived of some of my favorite
presidents I wouldn't think that they
would do that but that's what you get
you know you everyone should be cleare
eyed about who this man is and that's
another problem the deification of
politicians is sick it's sickening like
about Trump around Obama around like
these people are just people like the
idea that they are Godlike creatures
with extraordinary judgment you know one
of the really cool things about Ur and
I's job is we actually get to me meet
very important people after you meet a
few billionaires you're like yeah
there's definitely something there but
you know some of them get lucky um like
uh after you meet a few politicians
you're like oh they're like they're not
that smart uh that was a rude awakening
for me by the way being here in Texas
reading about these people and pretty
soon I was on Capitol Hill I was like 19
years old I was intern I'm actually
interacting and I see them behave and
ridiculous manners and you know whatever
treat people badly or say something
stupid and I was like oh I'm like this
is not the westwing I'm like this is not
like a these people are just this is
just reality and the weirdest part of my
life is I've now been in Washington long
enough I know some of the people
personally the vice president of the
United States literally the vice
president-elect future cabinet
secretaries future you know these people
I literally have met at dinner with at a
drink with whatever um that's a wild
thing and that's even more more bringing
you down to earth who were like oh shit
you're actually going to have a lot of
power that's that's kind of scary but
you're just a person and so even though
you don't have to say have my same life
experience take it for me or anybody
else who's ever met really famous people
rich rich successful powerful people
they're just people there's nothing that
there's some things that are unique
about them but uh they have just as many
human qualities as you or anybody else
is listening to this right now yeah
there's uh for each candidate Trump is
probably the extreme version of that
there's a there's a distribution of the
possible trajectories their
Administration might result in yes and
like uh the range of possible trajector
is just much wider with Trump yeah
you're describing like a basian theory
right like and I think that's actually a
really useful framework for the world is
that people are really too binary so
like you said you know there's a
theoretical possibility I guess of a
communist takeover of government and of
a fascist takeover of government under
Kay Harris or uh Donald Trump you know
the realistic probability I would give
it 05% probably in both directions um
but there are you know there are a lot
of things that can happen that are bad
that are not hitlerian or fascist there
are a lot of things that happen that are
really good that are not FDR New Deal
style uh one of the worst things
politicians do is they describe
themselves in false historical ways so
in Washington one of the most overused
phrases is made history and I'm like you
know if you actually read history most
of these things are just they're not
even footnotes they're the stuff that
the historians flip past and they're
like what a stupid fucking thing I mean
and I'm talking about things that will
that ruled American politics like what
if I told you that the Panama Canal
treaty was one of the most important
fights in modern American politics
nobody thinks about that today it ruled
American politics at that time you know
it genuinely is a footnote but that's
not how it felt at the time so that's
another thing I want people to take
away you uh trag IC Al missed the UFO
hearings oh man my brothers I'm I'm
really sad I I let me tell you I love
them so much the UFO Community are some
of the best people I've ever met in my
life shout out to my brother Jeremy
Corbell uh to George knp the OG to all
of the people who fly from all around
the world to come to these hearings it
was so fun I got to meet so many of them
last time just walk the Rope line like
as people were uh coming in the
excitement the uh it I I I love I truly
love the UFO Community shout out to all
of them this is the second one I guess
this is the second one do hope they
continue happening it's going to be a
slow burn uh so one of the things I
always tell the guys and everybody is
consider how long it took to understand
the sheer Insanity of the CIA in the
1950s and 60s so if we think back to the
church committee I don't I forget the
exact year of the church committee I
think it was in the 70s uh the entire
church committee and knowledge of why
this of how the CIA and the FBI were up
to all of this insane shit throughout
the 50s and 60s is because some people
broke into a warehouse discovered some
documents got the names of programs
which were able to be foed and we were
able to break open that case it would
never have happened with real
transparency like in the official
process so we owe those people a great
debt I guess I can say now the statute
of limitations has passed uh my point
about the UFOs is I don't know what is
real or not I have absolute confidence
and absolute ton is being hid from the
American people and that all of the
official explanations are bullshit I
have had the opportunity to interface
with some of the whistleblowers and
other the activists in the community
people who I trust people who have great
credentials who have no reason to lie
who have assured us that there is a lot
going on behind the scenes there has
been too much misinformation and effort
by the Deep state to cover up this topic
so I would ask people to keep the faith
it's 2024 and we still don't have all
the JFK files okay everyone involved is
dead there's no reason to let it go and
even though we basically know what
happened we don't know if you read that
fantastic book The Tom O'Neal book about
the Manson Murders I mean again you know
it took him 20 years to write that book
and he still didn't get the full story
so sometimes it takes an extraordinarily
long agonizing period of time and I know
how deeply frustrating that is but when
you think about a secret a program and
knowledge of this magnitude it would
only make sense that it would require a
Titanic effort to reveal a Titanic
secret you think Trump might be able to
push
for like aggressively break through the
secrecy let's say even on the JFK files
I hope so I have moderate confidence you
know RFK Jr has pushed him to do so I
would I would like to think so uh at the
same time I saw him got rolled last time
so I'm you know I'll hold my breath why
do you think that happens why do you
think it gets remember that whole inter
agency thing I told you about that's how
it happens uh that's another thing
you're presuming that the president has
the power to declassify this stuff I'm
I'm saying that I'm not even sure where
there like in terms of uh so it's basic
like civility he basically says like I
would like to declassify JFK files and
they say yes sir we'll get that to you
in three months and three months comes
by and then they're like well there's
these uh hurdles well the way you get
around it is go let's release some but
these in particular there's National
Security Secrets is a good case for not
releasing them X Y andz you know it's
like you get around that okay you know
that makes sense you know and again he's
a busy guy he's the president you got
way bigger shit to worry about so this
is the that's the problem is that unless
you have the true urgency I mean look
people of immense power have tried
everyone forgets this John podesta was
the white house chief of staff he is a
UFO True Believer in his heart he tried
he's talked about it he tried at the top
level the number two to the White House
to get the Pentagon and others to tell
him what was going on and they
stonewalled him so people need to
understand what you're up against and
you know I would and people are like how
is that even possible it's like well go
read about the terror that LBJ and the
kennedies and others had in confronting
Jay Edgar Hoover go and read how
terrified you know Eisenhower and some
of them were were of the dullish
brothers they were scared like they they
knew where the power lies so you know
the
presidency um look government deep State
Etc they've been there a long time and
they know what's happening and
president's come and go but they stay
forever and so uh that's that's the
Paradigm that you're going to have to
fight against yeah I mean it's it's it's
a bit of a meme but I wonder how deep
the Deep state is um much deeper than
anyone can even imagine and the worst
part is with the Deep state is it's not
even individuals It's actually an
ideology and ideology is the most P you
know people often think that if we took
money out of politics that it would
change everything I'm not saying it
wouldn't change everything but or it
wouldn't change a lot but people are
like oh so and so is only against
universal healthcare because they're
getting paid I'm like no no no that's
not why they actually believe it or it's
like oh so and so is only wants to
advocate for war with Iran because
they're on the payroll of APAC and it's
like well yeah the APAC trips and the
money helps but they think that actually
the system itself this is a very Chomsky
ass systemic critique is that any
journalist worth their salt would never
have the ability to get hired in a
mainstream so he's like it's not that
you're bad in the mainstream media it's
that any good is not allowed to be
elevated to your position because they
have an ideology and so you know that is
the most
self-reinforcing pernicious mechanism of
them all and that's really Washington in
a nutshell it's uh it's again a bubble
but a bubble that has a lot of power yes
who do you think is the future of the
Republican party after Trump what
happens to trumpism after Trump like you
just said basian let's take various
theories uh right so let's say it's ' 04
uh it's Bush
Cheney in 2004 the day after the
election I would have told you this we
live in a Bible Bell Jesus land America
this America wants to protect America a
war on terror against Iraq um and uh the
axis of Evil and American people just
voted for George W bush and so I would
have predicted that it would have been
somebody in that Vain and they tried
that his name was John McCain he got
blown the fuck out by Barack Obama so I
cannot sit here and confidently say what
year would you be able to predict Obama
just his first time he gave the speech
the 2004 speech at the DNC that was his
we don't live in Black America White
America the John krey DNC speech you
honestly could not have predicted it
until 07 whenever he actually announced
his campaign and and activated a lot of
anti-war energy I mean maybe' 06
actually I could have said in ' 06 if I
was you know kind of the contrary am I
am now I'm like yeah there's a lot of
anti-war energy I think the next
president will be somebody who's able to
vote you know the explosion of Keith
alberman and MSNBC that it it makes
logical sense in hindsight but you know
at the same time you're going up against
the Clinton machine who's never lost an
election so I would have been afraid um
I cannot confidently say so I will say
if things go in different directions if
Trump is a net positive president then I
think it will be JD Vance his vice
president um who believes in the uh a
lot of the things that I've talked about
here today about foreign policy
restraint about the working class about
changing Republican attitudes to the
economy um and he would be able to build
upon that Legacy in the way that George
whw Bush was able to get elected off the
back of Reagan but HW Bush was
fundamentally his own man he's a very
misunderstood figure very different than
Ronald Reagan uh didn't end up working
out for him but you know he did get
himself elected once so that's one path
that's if you have a net positive Trump
presidency the other path is the 04 path
that I just laid out uh if George W bush
if Trump does what Bush does
misinterprets his mandate screws things
up creates chaos um and makes it just
generally annoying to live in American
society then you will see somebody in
the Republican party I mean still it
could even be JD Vance because he could
say JD is my natural and My Chosen
successor but then he would lose an
election and then he would no longer be
the so-called leader of the Republican
party so uh I could see it swing in the
other direction I could see uh you know
Republicans or others let's say if it's
a total disaster and we get down to like
20% approval ratings and the economy is
bad and stuff like that Glenn yunan or
uh somebody like that who's very
diametrically opposed to Donald Trump uh
or at least you know aesthetically is
somebody like that who could Rise From
the Ashes and I'm just saying like in
terms of his aesthetic not him per se so
there's a variety of different
directions um it's a big question about
the Republican base I mean a shit ton of
people voted Republican now for the
first time ever so are they going to
vote in party primaries I don't know you
know the traditional Party primary voter
is like a white Boomer who's like 58 59
uh is the Latino guy in California who
turned out to vote for Trump with a Maga
hat and rolling around you know Suburban
Los Angeles with that is he going to
vote in the Republican party that could
change so the type of candidate
themselves could come so this just it's
way too early to say you know we have so
many variety paths that we go down yeah
I I think Trump is a singular figure in
terms of
like if you support
Trump there I just there's a Vibe I know
K has a Vibe but there's definitely a
vibe to Trump and Maga and I just I
think even with JD that that's no longer
going to be there so if JD runs and wins
that would be on principles and it's a
very different human being he is so
different than Trump right you can see
his empathy right remember in the VP
debate when he was like Christ have
mercy when Tim Wallace was talking about
his son I mean that's not something
Donald Trump would say okay it's just
not like uh in terms of I mean you know
and and this by the way this is my own
bubble test I have no idea how somebody
listens to Trump and JD Vance is like
Trump is the guy who should be the
president over I I honestly I don't get
it that's my own cards on the table I am
in too much of a bubble where I'm my
bias is to you know being well spoken
and being empathetic or at least being
able to play empathetic and being being
extremely well read about the world and
thoughtful and uh somebody who's you
know somebody like him who's engaged in
the political process but also has been
able to retain his values and be
extremely well articulate his worldview
that's my bias that's who I would want
to be the president but you know you
that's a big country people think
differently by the way I share your bias
and I sometimes try to take myself out
of that bubble like it's maybe it's not
important to to have read a book or
multiples of books on history I'm not
saying everybody should be like me but
that's my I'm checking Myself by being
like because of who I am that's how I
see the world and that's how I would
choose a leader but that is not how
people vote period and I've nothing has
taught me that more than this election I
wish they did I mean I don't know if
that I don't know if that's a lesson to
take away I think yeah but who are we to
say people are allowed to do what they
want you I'm not going to tell somebody
how to vote no what I'm saying is you
take everything
Trump everything Trump is doing
everything the whole the dance all of it
and add occasional Saga like references
to history books I think that's just a
better candidate I agree with you I mean
I listen you know it's my bias uh yeah I
don't know I don't think that's biased I
think I think that's not a bub Bubble
thinking I think it's amazing to me
right like listen to the JD interview
with Rogan um I mean JD I mean he'll
drop obscure references to studies to
like papers that have come out essays um
books like this is a very well read high
IQ wellth thought out individual who
also you know has given his life to the
political process and decided to like
deal with all the bullshit that this
entire system is going to throw at you
whenever you start to engage uh that's
who I would want to be president but you
know I'm biased so what can I say I like
how you keep saying you're biased as if
there's some percent of the population
doesn't like people to read at all okay
uh what about the future you kind of
hinted at it the future of the Dem ratic
party do you see any Talent out there
that's promising is it going to be Obama
likee figure that just rolls out of
nowhere Clinton is the better example um
because the Democratic party was
destroyed for 12 years uh from 1980 the
1980 election to 1992 they're 12 years
out of power uh in periods of that long
of an era it takes somebody literally
brand new who is not tainted by the
previous to convince the base that you
can W and convince the country that
you're going in a New Direction so I
would not put my money on anybody
tainted by the great awokening by TDS by
the insanity of the Trump era that has
to be somebody post that Andor somebody
who is able to reform themselves it will
it will in my opinion it will likely not
be any establishment politician of today
who will emerge for the future like I
said my dark horse is Dean I think that
the uh I think the Democratic base is
going to give Dean a shit ton of credit
and they should uh for him being out
look let's be honest he's a no-name
congressman from Minnesota nobody cared
who Dean Phillips was but just like
Obama he had courage and he came out and
spoke early when it mattered and by
doing that he showed good judgment and
he showed that he's willing to take risk
so I would hope in America's political
system that we award something like that
and I do think the Democrats will reward
him but I'm not saying it will be him
per se but it will be a figure like that
who is not nationally known who has read
the tea leaves correctly who took
guesses and did things differently than
everybody else and uh most of all I'm
hoping that heterodox attitudes ideas
behaviors by definition after a blowout
those will likely be the ones that are
rewarded so I cannot give a name but I
can just describe the circumstances for
what it will look like can you imagine
an amorphous figure that's a progressive
populist it would be very difficult at
this point uh just because a huge
portion of the multi-racial working
class has shifted to the right but I
could see it I mean look people Chang
their minds all the time like there are
people out there who voted for Barack
Obama who've now voted for Donald Trump
three times so you know a lot can change
in this country uh if you make a
credible case you've got a track record
you speak authentically and you can try
to divide the country along class lines
and be authentic and real about it maybe
I think it was shot I still think you're
probably going to get dinged on culture
just because I think this election has
really showed us how important
immigration and culture is but you know
actually
what the left populace should pray for
and they won't admit this is that Trump
actually solves immigration like in
terms of changing the Status Quo you
know how in the way that uh the Supreme
Court just ended the conversation around
gay marriage so Republicans were like
yeah whatever we support gay marriage um
because they're like that's the law of
the land it is what it is uh they should
just hope that their unpopular issue uh
is resolved by the president and thus
they just don't have to talk about it
anymore and now the Battleground is
actually favorable for them they get to
talk about the economy and portion so
their most their least popular issue
gets solved by the president by
consensus from his mandate and then they
can run on a brand new platform for the
new issues that are facing America all
right let's put our historian head back
on okay will the American Empire
collapse one day and if it
does when it does what would be the
reason statistically likely the uh
statistically yes uh uh you know it's
the famous Fight Club quote it's like on
a long enough timeline the survival rate
for everything drops to zero uh and uh
you know I like for all the books you've
quoted you went to Fight Club I guess
the movie right the book is good though
people should read that too um in terms
of why uh again statistically uh the
answer is quite simple it usually comes
back to a uh series of unpopular Wars
which are pursued uh because of the
Elite's interests then it usually leads
to to a miscalculation and a not a
catastrophic defeat normally it comes
gradually uh and you most of the times
when these things end the crazy part is
most people who are living through end
of Empire have no idea that they're
living through the end of the Empire and
I actually think about that a lot from
uh you know Decline and fall of the
Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon actually
your episode on Rome was fantastic
people should go listen to that so there
you go um another really good one I like
to think a lot about the British Empire
and if what eventually led to that
collapse and nobody in 1919 said the
British Empire has just collapsed
basically nobody thought that they were
like yeah the first world war is
horrible but actually we came out of
this okay we still have India you know
we still have all these African colonies
and all that but you know long periods
of servitude of debt to the United
States of degradation of social upheaval
of bolshevism of American industrial
might and next thing you know you find
yourself at pot Stan
and Churchill is like holy shit I have
barely any power in this room right so
it revolutions happen slowly and then
all at once um and so could you really
put a you know a a real like pin in the
end of the British Empire it took almost
40 years for for it to end so America's
Empire will eventually end either from
rising geopolitical competition likely
China could be India nobody knows um it
will likely be because of being
overstretched of uh an elite capture is
usually the reason why uh and uh a
misreading of what made your original
Society work you know in the first place
and that is one where honestly like all
three of those things will happen all at
once and it will happen over extremely
long period of time and uh it's very
difficult to predict I would not bet
against America right now I think we
have a lot of fundamental strengths such
a unique and dynamic country it really
is fucking crazy uh every time I travel
the world as much as I love all these
different places I go man I just I love
the United States so much you will love
it more when you leave I I really
believe that so yeah and it's nice to
remember how quickly the public opinion
shifts like we're very Dynamic and
adaptable which and annoys me I
understand that's part of the political
discourse saying like if Trump wins it's
the end of America if K wins it's the
end of America so stupid yeah but I
understand the radical nature of that
discourse is necessary to uh like who
mentioned yeah to drive out Bo right of
votes I like to think about Americans in
1866 I canot imagine going through a war
where some X I think it was like 2 or 3%
or whatever the entire population was
just killed our president who was this
Visionary genius who we were blessed to
have is assassinated at Forks theater
immediately after the surrender of Lee
Andrew Johnson who's a bumbling like
fuck tard is the one who is in charge
and you know we're having all these
insane crises over like internal
management while we're also trying to
decide like this new order in the South
and whether to bring these people how to
bring these people back into the Union I
mean I would have despaired like in that
year I like it's over this is it you
know the War I like was it worth
anything you know if Andrew Johnson is
going to be doing this or even in the
south I mean I can't even imagine uh for
what they were going through too H you
know they have to go home and their
entire cities are burned to the ground
and they're trying to readjust and you
know their entire econom economy and way
of life is overthrown in 5 years I mean
that's an insane to be alive and what do
we know it worked out you know by uh
1890s or so uh there were people shaking
hands you know Union and uh there's a
there's a cool video on YouTube actually
of um FDR who is addressing some of the
last Gettysburg veterans I think it was
like the 75th Anniversary or whatever
and you can literally see these old men
who shaking hands across the stone wall
it gives me hope yeah let's Linger on
that hope what is the source of optimism
you have for the 21st century for the
century beyond that for human
civilization in general is uh you know
it's easy to learn cynical lessons from
history right that shit eventually goes
wrong but sometimes it doesn't so what
gives you hope I think that
the the
fundamentals of what makes Humanity
great and has for a long time are best
expressed in the American character and
that despite all of our problems that as
a country with our ethos a lot of the
stuff we talked about today
individualism the frontier mindset the
blessings of geography the blessings of
our economy of uh the way that we're
able to just incorporate different
cultures and the best of each and and
put them all together give us the best
opportunity to succeed and to accomplish
awesome things uh we're the country that
put a man on the moon which is the
epitome of human spirit I hope to see
more of that and uh you know I think
last time I was here I shouted out and I
love Antarctic exploration I've read
basically every book that there is on
the exploration of Antarctica and one of
the reasons I love to do so is because
there is no reason to care about
Antarctica none there's nothing down
there zero going to the South Pole is a
truly useless exercise and yet we went
we went twice actually two people went
there in the span of five weeks and they
competed to do so and uh the spirit that
propelled Amenson and Scott's Expedition
and people like Shackleton who is like
if you were to ask me my hero of all
heroes it's Ernest Shackleton is because
his Spirit uh I think lives on in the
United States it unfortunately died in
Great Britain and um interestingly
enough the Brits even understand that
they're like it's very interesting how
popular Shackleton is in America and uh
even though he was Irish and he was a
British subject to me he's a spiritual
American and I think that his his lives
on within us and uh has always been here
to a certain extent and everywhere else
I think it's dying but here I love it
here uh there's so many cool things
about America people move around all the
time they buy new houses they start
families they uh there's no other place
you can just reset your whole life in
the same country it's wild uh you can
reinvent yourself you can go broke you
can get rich you can go back and forth
multiple times and uh there's nobody
there's nowhere else where you have
enough freedom and opportunity to pursue
that and definitely have a lot of
problems but I've traveled enough of the
world now to know that uh it's a special
place and that gives me a lot of hope I
wish I could do a Bostonian accent of we
do these things not because they're easy
but because they're hard because they
are hard thank you
yeah Ah that's so true the Scott Irish
guts uh well listen I'm a huge fan of
your Saga I hope to see you in the White
House interviewing the president there
you go that's right that's the only
situation you're going to see me in the
White House
yeah uh front row and just talking uh
free I would just I would love to live
in in a country and in a world where
it's you who gets to talk to the press
secretary to the
president um because I think you're a
real you're one of the good ones as far
as journalists go as far as human being
so I hope to see you in there and I I
hope you get to ask a question that uh
that end up in a book that ends up in a
good history book absolutely well
likewise I'm a huge fan of yours uh for
anybody out there who's interested I
compiled a list and I will go and
retroactively edit it just go to sagur
and jet. I created a newsletter with a
website that has all the links to all
the books I'm going to talk about here
beautiful the hundreds of books that
were mentioned here all right brother
thank you so much for talking today
thank you thanks for listening to this
conversation with Saga and Jetty to
support this podcast please check out
our sponsors in the description and now
let me leave you with some words from
voler history is the study of all the
world's
crime thank you for listening and hope
to see you next time