Kind: captions
Language: en
he said very specifically depending on
the questions you ask Putin MH um you
know you could be arrested or not and I
said listen to what you're saying you're
saying the US government has like
control over my questions and they'll
arrest me if I ask the wrong question
like how are we better than Putin if
that's true killing naal during the
Munich security conference in the middle
of a debate over $60 billion in Ukraine
funding maybe the Russians are dumb I
didn't get that Vibe at all I don't
think we kill people in other countries
to affect election outcomes oh wait no
we do it a lot and have for 80
years the following is a conversation
with Tucker Carlson a highly influential
and often controversial political
commentator when he was a fox Time
magazine called him the most powerful
conservative in America after Fox he has
continued to host big impactful
interviews and shows on X on the Tucker
Carlson podcast and on Tucker
carlson.com I recommend subscribing even
if you disagree with his views it is
always good to explore diversity of
perspectives most recently he
interviewed the president of Russia
Vladimir Putin we discussed this the
topic of Russia Putin naal and the war
in Ukraine at length in this
conversation please allow me to say a
few words about the very fact that I did
this interview I have received a lot of
criticism publicly and privately when I
announced that will be talking with
Tucker for people who think I shouldn't
do the conversation with Tucker or
generally think that there are certain
people I should never talk to I'm sorry
but I disagree I will talk to everyone
as long as they're willing to talk
genuinely in long form for two three
four more hours I will talk to Putin and
to zalinski to Trump and to Biden to
Tucker and to John Stewart ALC Obama and
many more people with very different
views on the world I want to understand
people and ideas that's what long form
conversations are supposed to be all
about now for people who criticize me
for not asking tough questions I hear
you but again I disagree I do often ask
tough questions but I try to do it in a
way that doesn't shut down the other
person putting them into a defensive
state where they give only shallow
talking points instead I'm looking
always for the expression of genuinely
held ideas and the deep roots of those
ideas when done well this gives us a
chance to really hear out the guest and
to begin to understand what and how they
think and I trust the intelligence of
you The Listener to make up your own
mind to see through the bullshit to the
degree there's bullshit and to see to
the heart of the person sometimes I fail
at this but I'll continue working my ass
off to improve all that said I find that
this no tough question criticism often
happens when the guest is a person The
Listener simply hates and wants to see
them grilled into embarrassment called
the liar a greedy egomaniac a killer
maybe even an evil human being and so on
if you are such a listener what you want
is drama not wisdom in this case this
show is not for you there are many shows
you can go to for that with hosts that
are way more charismatic and
entertaining than I'll ever
be if you do stick around please know I
will work hard to do this well and to
keep improving thank you for your
patience and thank you for your support
I love you
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in the description and now dear friends
here's Tucker
Carlson what was your first impression
when you met Vladimir Putin for the
interview I thought he seemed nervous
and I was very surprised by that and I
thought he seemed like someone who'd
overthought it a little bit who had a
plan and I don't think that's the right
way to go into any interview my strong
sense having done a lot of them for a
long time is that it's better to know
what you think to say you know as much
as you can honestly so you don't get
confused by your own lies um and just to
be yourself and I thought that he went
into it um like an
overprepared student and and I thinking
why is why is he nervous um but you know
I guess because he thought a lot of
people were going to see it but he was
also probably prepared to um to give you
a full lesson in history as he did well
I was totally shocked by that and very
annoyed because I thought he was
filibustering I thought he would I mean
I asked him as I usually do the most
obvious dumbest question ever which is
you know why'd you do this
and um he had said in a speech that I
think is worth reading I don't speak
Russian so I I haven't heard it in the
original but um he had said at the
moment of the beginning of the war he
had given this address to Russians in
which he explained to the fullest extent
we have seen so far why he was doing
this and he said in that speech I fear
that NATO the West the United States the
Biden Administration will preemptively
attack us
and I thought well that's interesting I
me I can't evaluate whether that's a
fear rooted in reality or or one rooted
in paranoia but I thought well that's
well that's an answer right there and so
I alluded to that in my question and
rather than answering it he went off on
this long from my perspective kind of
tiresome um sort of greatest hits of
Russian history and the implication I
thought was well Ukraine is ours or
Eastern Ukraine is ours already um and I
thought he was doing that to avoid
answering the question so you know the
last thing you want when you're
interviewing someone is to get
rolled uh and I didn't want to be rolled
so I a couple of times interrupted him
politely I thought um but he wasn't
having it and then I thought you know
what I'm not here to prove that I'm a
great interviewer it's kind of not about
me I want to know who this guy is I
think a western audience a global
audience has a right to know more about
the guy and so just let him talk you
know cuz it's not you know I don't feel
like my reputations on the line people
have already drawn conclusions about me
I suppose to the extent they have I'm
not interested really in those
conclusions anyway so just let him talk
and so I calmed down and just let him
talk and in retrospect I thought that
was really really interesting you know
whether you agree with it or not or
whether you think it's relevant to the
war in Ukraine or not that was his
answer and so it's inherently
significant well you said he was nervous
were you nervous were you afraid this is
Vladimir Putin I wasn't afraid at all
and I wasn't nervous at all did you
drink tea beforehand no I did my my
normal uh regimen of nicotine pouches
and coffee uh no I'm not a tea drinker I
tried not to eat you know all the sweets
they put in front of us which is that
that is my weakness is eating crap um
but you eat a lot of sugar as you know
before an interview and it and it does
dull you so I I successfully resisted
that but I no I wasn't nervous I wasn't
nervous the whole time I was there why
would I be you know I'm 54 my kids are
grown I believe in God you know I'm not
I'm almost never nervous but um no I
wasn't nervous I was just interested I
mean I couldn't I you know I'm
interested in Soviet history I studied
it in college I've read about it my
entire life my dad you know worked in
the Cold War it was a constant topic of
conversation and so to be in the Kremlin
in a room where Stalin made decisions
either wartime decisions or decisions
about murdering his own population I
just I just couldn't get over it you
know we're in molotovs Old office so for
me that was I was just blown away by
that I knew I thought I knew a lot about
Russia it turns that I knew a lot about
the Soviet period you know the 1937
Purge trials the famine in Ukraine like
I knew a fair amount about that but I
really knew nothing about contemporary
Russia less than I thought I did it
turned out and um but yeah I was just I
was just blown away by where we were and
that's kind of one of the main drivers
at this stage in my life of you know
that that's why I do what I do is cu I'm
interested in stuff and I want to see as
much as I can and try and draw
conclusions from it to the extent I can
so I was very much caught up in that but
no I wasn't nervous I didn't think he
was going to like kill me or something
and I'm not particularly afraid of that
anyway so not afraid of dying not really
no I mean again it's a t you know it's
it's an age and stage in life thing I
mean i' I have four children so there
were times when they were little where I
was terrified of dying because if I died
it would have huge consequences but no I
mean at this point I don't want to die
I'm really enjoying my life but I've
been with the same girl for 40 years and
I have four children who I'm extremely
close to well now five uh a
daughter-in-law and I love them all I'm
really close to them I tell them I love
them every day I I don't I've had a
really interesting life what was the
goal just Linger on that what was the
goal for the interview like how were you
thinking about it what would success be
like in your head leading into it to
bring more information disinformation to
the public yeah that's it I mean I have
really strong feelings about um
what's you know happening not just in
Ukraine or Russia but around the world I
think the world is resetting to the
Grave disadvantage of the United States
I don't think most Americans are aware
of that at all and uh so that's my view
and I've I've stated it many times um
because it's
sincere but my goal was
to have more information brought to the
West so people could make their own
decisions about whether this is a good
idea I mean I just I guess I reject the
whole premise of the war in Ukraine from
the American perspective which is you
know a tiny group of dumb people in
Washington has decided to do this for
reasons they won't really explain and
you don't have a role in it at all as an
American citizen as the person who's
paying for it whose children might be
drafted to fight it you know to shut up
and Obey I just I just reject that
completely you know I'm a I think I
guess I'm a child of a different era I'm
a child of participatory democracy to
some extent where your opinion as a
citizen is not
irrelevant and um so I I I'm just and I
guess the level of lying about it was
starting to drive me crazy and I've said
and I will say again I am not an expert
on the region or really any region other
than say Western Maine I just don't you
know I'm not Russian and
um but it was obvious to me that we were
being lied to in ways that were just it
was crazy the scale of lives and I'll
give you one example the idea that
Ukraine would inevitably win
this war now victory was never as it
never is defined precisely nothing is
ever defined precisely which is always a
tell that there's deception at the heart
of the claim but um Ukraine's on the
verge of winning well I don't know I
mean I'm hardly a tactician or military
expert for the fifth time I'm not an
expert on Russia or Ukraine I just look
at Wikipedia Russia has a 100 million
more people than Ukraine 100
million it has much deeper industrial
capacity War material capacity than all
of NATO
combined for example Russia is turning
out artillery shells which are you know
significant in a ground war at a ratio
of 7
to1 compared to all NATO countries
combined that's all of
Europe Russia is producing seven times
the artillery shells as all of Europe
combined what that's an amazing fact and
it turns out to be a really significant
fact in fact the significant fact but if
you ask your average person in this
country even a fairly well informed
person of good faith who's just trying
to understand what's going on who's
going to win this war well Ukraine's
going to win they're on the right side
and they think that because our media
who really just do serve the interest of
the US government period they are State
media in that sense have told him that
for over two years and I I I was in
Hungary last summer talking to the Prime
Minister Victor orbon who's a you know
whatever you think of him is a very
smart guy very smart guy like smart on a
scale that we're not used to uh in our
leaders and I said to him off camera so
is Ukraine going to win and he looked at
me like I was deranged like or I was
congenitally you know deficient are they
going to win no of course they can't win
it's tiny compared to Russia Russia has
a wartime economy Ukraine doesn't really
have an economy no look at the
populations he was like looked at me
like I was stupid and I said to him you
know I think most Americans believe that
because NBC News and CNN and all the
news channels all of them tell them that
because it's framed exclusively in moral
terms and it's churchil versus Hitler
and of course church is going to Prevail
in the end and it's just so dishonest
that even it doesn't even matter what I
want to happen or what I think ought to
happen that's a distortion of what is
happening and if I have any job at all
which I sort of don't actually at this
point but if I do have a job it's to
just try to be honest and that's a lie
there is a more Nuance discussion about
what winning might look like you're
right a Nuance discussion is not being
had but it is possible for Ukraine to
quote unquote win with the help of
United States I I guess that
conversation needs to begin by defining
terms and the key term is Win what does
that mean peace a ceasefire who owns
which land yes coming to the table with
the as you call the parent the United
States yes putting leverage on the
negotiation to make sure there's a
fairness amen well I of course as a and
and I should just restate this I am uh
not emotionally involved in this I'm
American in every sense and my only
interest is in America I'm not leaving
ever and so I'm looking at this purely
from our perspective what's good for us
but also as a human being as a Christian
I mean I I hate war and anybody who
doesn't hate War um shouldn't have power
in my opinion so I agree with those that
definition
vehemently a victory is like not killing
an entire generation of your population
it's not being completely destroyed to
be eaten up by black rock or whatever
comes next for them so yeah we were
close to that a year and a half ago and
the Biden Administration dispatched
Boris Johnson the briefly prime minister
of the UK to stop it and to say to
zalinsky who I feel sorry for by the way
because he's caught between these forces
that are bigger than he is to say no you
cannot come to any terms with Russia and
the result of that has not been a
Ukrainian Victory it's just been more
dead ukrainians and a lot of profit for
the West it's it's a moral crime in my
opinion and I tried to ask Boris Johnson
about it because why wouldn't I after he
denounced me as a tool of the Kremlin or
something and um he demanded a million
dollars to talk to me wow and this just
happened last week and uh and by the way
in writing too I'm not making this I'm
not just for the record you demanded a
million dollar from me to talk to me
today I did and you paid um no I'm of
course kidding but um and I I said to
his guy I said I just interviewed Putin
who was widely recognized as a bad guy
and he did it for free he didn't demand
a million dollars he wasn't in this for
profit like are you telling me that
Boris Johnson is sleazier than Vladimir
Putin and of course that is the message
and so I I guess these are really it's
not just about Boris Johnson being a sad
you know rapacious fraud which he is
obviously but it's about like the future
of the West
and the future of Ukraine this country
that purportedly we care so much about
all these people are dying and like what
is the endgame it's also
deranged that I didn't imagine and don't
imagine that I could like add anything
very meaningful to the conversation
because I'm not a genius okay but I felt
like I could at the very least puncture
some of the lies and that's an inherent
good Vladimir Putin after the interview
said that he wasn't fully satisfied
because you weren't aggressive enough
you didn't ask
sharpen off questions first of all what
do you think about him saying that I
don't even understand it um I guess it I
I it does seem like the one Putin
statement that Western media take at
face value everything else Putin says is
a lie except his criticism of me which
is true but I mean I have no idea what
he meant by that I can only tell you
what um my goal was as I've suggested
was not to make it about me I I watched
you know he hasn't done any any
interviews of any kind for years
but the last interview he did with an
English-speaking reporter Western media
reporter was like many of the other
interviews he'd done with Western media
reporters Mike Wallace's son did an
interview with him that was of the same
variety and it was all about him you
know I'm a good person you're a bad
person and I just feel like that's the
most tiresome fruitless kind of
interview it's not about me I I don't
think I'm an especially good person I've
definitely never claimed to be but
people can make their own judgments and
again the only judgments that I care
about are my wife and children and God
so I'm just not interested in proving
I'm a good person and I just want to
hear from him and and I had a lot of I
mean you should see the I I almost never
write questions down but I did in this
case because I had months to well I had
three years to think about it as I was
trying to book the interview which I did
myself but they were all it was all
about internal Russian politics and naly
and and I had a lot of I thought really
good questions and then at the last
second and you make these decisions as
you know since you interview people a
lot often you make them on the Fly and I
thought no I want to talk about the
things that haven't been talked about
and that I think matter in a world
historic sense and the number one among
those of course is the War and what it
means for the world and um so I stuck to
that I mean I could answer I did ask
about gershkovich who I felt sorry for
and I wanted Putin to release him to me
and I was offended that he didn't I
thought his rationale was absurd well we
want to trade him for someone I said
well that doesn't that make him a
hostage you know which of course it does
uh but other than that I really wanted
to keep it to the things that I think
matter most you know people can judge
whether I did a good job or not but that
was my that was that was my decision in
the moment what was your gut did you
want to ask some tough questions as
follow-ups on certain topics I don't
know what it would mean to ask a tough
question clarifying questions I I
suppose they would I guess I just wanted
him to talk you know I just wanted to
hear his perspective again I've probably
asked more asshole questions than like
any living American you know I'm as as
has been noted correctly I'm a dick by
my nature and um so I don't I I just
feel at this stage of my life I didn't
need to prove that I could like Vladimir
Putin answer the question sure sure you
know I think if I had been you know 34
instead of 54 I definitely would have
done that cuz I would have thought this
is really about me and I need to prove
myself
no I I just there's a war going on that
is Wrecking the US economy in a way and
at a scale people do not understand the
US dollar is going away that was of
course inevitable ultimately because
everything dies including currencies but
that death that process of death has
been accelerated exponentially by the
behavior of the Biden Administration and
the US Congress particularly the
sanctions and people don't understand
what the ramifications of that are the
ramifications are poverty in the United
States okay so I just I just wanted to
get to that um because I'm coming at
this from not a Global Perspective I'm
coming at it from an American
perspective so you mentioned navali mhm
after you left navali died in prison yes
what are your thoughts on just at a high
level first about his death it's awful I
mean imagine dying in prison you know
I've thought about it a lot I've known a
lot of people in prison a lot including
some very good friends of mine so I felt
instantly sad about it um from a
geopolitical perspective I don't know
any more than that and I I laugh at and
sort of resent but mostly fun amusing
the claims by American politicians who
really are the dumbest politicians in
the world actually you know this
happened and here's what it means and
it's like actually as a factual matter
we don't know what happened we don't
know what happened we have no freaking
idea what happened we can say and I did
say and I will say again I think I don't
think you should put opposition figures
in prisent I really don't I don't period
um it happens a lot around the world
happens in this country as you know and
I'm against all of it but do we know how
we died the short answer no we don't now
if I had to guess I would
say killing naali during the Munich
security conference in the middle of a
debate over $60 billion in Ukraine
funding maybe the Russians are dumb I
didn't get that Vibe at all you know I
just don't I don't see it but maybe you
know maybe they killed him I mean they
certainly put him in prison which I'm
against um but I here's what I do know
is that we don't know and so when Chuck
Schumer stands up
and Joe Biden reads some card in front
of him with lines about navali it's like
I'm allowed to laugh at that because
it's absurd you don't know there's a lot
of interesting ideas of well if he was
killed who killed him because it could
be Putin it could be somebody in Russia
who's not Putin y it could be ukrainians
because it would benefit the war they
killed Dugan's daughter in Moscow so
yeah it's possible and it could be I
mean the United States could also be
involved I don't think we kill people in
other countries to affect election
outcomes oh wait no we do it a lot and
have for 80 years and it's shameful I
can say that as an American because it's
my money in my name um yeah I'm really
offended by that and I never thought
that was true and I spent again I'm much
older than you and so I spent my my my
worldview was defined by the Cold
War and very much in the house I lived
in in Georgetown in Washington DC you
know that's what we talked about and and
the left at the time you know I don't
know the wacko MIT Professor who I never
had any respect for who I know you've
interviewed Etc like the hard left was
always saying well the United States
government is interfering in other
elections and I just dismissed that
completely out of hand uh as stupid and
actually a SL against my country but it
turned out to all be true or or
substantially true anyway and that's
been a real shock for me in middle age
to to understand that but anyway as to
Nal look I don't know um but we should
always proceed on the basis of what we
do know which is to say on the basis of
truth knowable truth and if you have an
entire policy-making apparatus that is
making the biggest decisions on the face
of the planet on the basis of things
that are bullshit or lies you're going
to get bad outcomes
every time um every time and that's
that's why we are where we are does it
bother you that basically the most
famous opposition figure in Russia is
sitting in prison of course it does of
course it bothers me I mean it bothered
me when I got there it bothers me now I
was sad when he died yeah I mean that's
one of the measures of it's one of the
basic measures of political Freedom are
you imprisoning people who oppose you
you know are you imprisoning people who
pose a physical risk to you I mean
there's some
subjective decision-making involved in
these things however big picture yeah do
you have opposition leaders in jail it's
not a free it's not a politically free
society and Russia isn't
obviously and as I said A friend of mine
from childhood an American actually
who's a wonderful person lives in Russia
with his Russian Moscow with his Russian
wife and I had dinner with him he's a
very balanced Guy totally nonpolitical
person
and um and speaks Russian and loves his
many Russian children and loves the
culture and there's a lot to love the
culture that produced Tolstoy you know
it's not a gas station with nuclear
weapons sorry only a moron would say
that it's a very deep culture I don't
fully understand it of course but I I
admire it who wouldn't but I asked him
like what's it like living here and he
goes it's you know it's great Mo Moscow
is a great City indisputably he said you
don't want to get involved in Russian
politics and I said what he said well
you could get hurt you could wind up
like nval if you did um but also it's
just too complicated you know the
Russian mind is not is not exactly the
it's a Wester it's a European city but
it's not quite European and um the way
they think is very very complex very
complex it's just it's too complicated
just don't get involved and
um I would just say two things
one uh I'm not sure I mean like I don't
know but my strong sense is that naval's
death whoever did it probably didn't
have a lot to do with the the coming
election in Russia my sense from talking
to Putin and the people around him is
they're not really focused on that I
mean in fact I asked one of his top
advisers when's the election and she
looked at me completely confused she
didn't know the date of the election
okay she's like a March okay um and I
asked a bunch of other people just in
Moscow who's who's Putin running against
like nobody knew so it's not a real
election right in the in the sense that
we would recognize at all um second I
was really struck by so many things in
Moscow and really bothered by deeply
bothered by a lot of things that I saw
there um but one thing I noticed was the
total absence of culture personality
propaganda which I expected to see and
have seen around the world Jordan for
example I don't if you've been to Jordan
but go to Jordan in every building there
are pictures of the king and his
extended family and and that's a sign of
political insecurity you know you don't
create a cult of personality unless
you're personally insecure and also
unless you're worried about losing your
grip and power none of that that's it's
interesting and I expected to see a lot
of it you know like statues of Putin no
there no statues of anybody other than
like Christian Saints so that was like
I'm not quite sure I'm just reporting
what I saw um so yes it's not a in a
political sense it's not a free country
it's not a
democracy uh in the way that we would
understand it or want I don't want to
live there okay cuz I like to say what I
think in fact I make my living doing it
um but it's not stalinist in a
recognizable way and anyone who says it
is should go there and tell me how I
mean this question about the freedom of
the press is
underlying the very fact of the
interview you're having with him right
so you might not need to ask the navali
question but did you feel like are there
things I shouldn't say I mean how honest
you want me to be I mean it when I say I
felt not one twinge of concern for the
eight days that I was there maybe I just
didn't and I feel like I've got a pretty
strong gut sense of things I rely on it
I make all my decisions based on how I
feel my instincts and I didn't feel it
at all um my lawyers before I left and
these are people who work for a big Law
Firm this is not Bob's Law Firm this is
one of the biggest law firms in the
world said you're going to get arrested
if you do this by the US government on
sanctions
violations and I said well you know I
don't I don't recognize the legitimacy
of that actually because I'm American
and I've lived here my whole life and
that's so outrageous that I'm happy to
face that that risk because I I so
reject the premise okay I'm an American
I should be able to talk to anyone I
want to and I I plan to exercise that
freedom which I think I was born with
and I gave them this long long lecture
they're like we're just lawyers but that
was um it was it was a let me put it
this way I don't know how much you dealt
with lawyers but it costs many thousands
of dollars to get a conclusion like that
like they sent a whole bunch of their
summer Associates or whatever they sent
they put a lot of people on this
question checked a lot of precedent and
I think and they sent me a 10-page memo
on it and their sincere conclusion was
do not do this and of course it made me
mad so I was lecturing on on the phone
and I had another call with the head
lawyer and he said well look a lot will
depend on the questions that you ask
Putin if your scen is too nice to him
you could get arrested when you come
back and I was like you're describing
fascist country okay you're saying that
the US government will arrest me if I
don't ask the questions they want asked
is that's what you're saying well we
just think based on what's happened that
that's possible and
so I'm just telling you what happened so
you were okay being arrested in Moscow
arrested I didn't think for a second I
mean maybe look I don't speak Russian
I'd never been there
before everything about the culture was
brand new to me you know ignorance does
protect
you sort of when you have no freaking
idea what's going on you're not worried
about it like this has happened to me
many times uh there's a principle there
that extends throughout life so it's
completely possible that I was in grave
Peril and didn't know it because like
how would I know it you know I'm like a
bumbling English speaker from California
but um I didn't feel it at all but the
lawyers did yeah I mean it scared the
crap out of people you're going to look
and I you have to pay in cash they don't
take credit cards because of sanctions
and you have to go through all these
hoops just procedural Hoops to go to
Russia which I was willing to do because
I wanted to interview Putin because they
told me I couldn't but then there's
another fact which is that I was being
surveilled by the US government
intensely surveilled by the US
government and this came out they
admitted it the NSA admitted it a couple
of years ago that they were up in my
signal account and then they leaked it
to the New York they did that again
before I left and I know that because
two New York Times reporters one of whom
I actually like a lot uh
said oh you're going and called other
people oh he's going to interview Putin
I had told anybody that like anybody
like my wife two producers that's it so
they got that from the government then
I'm over there and of course I want to
see Snowden who I
admire and so I have a we have a mutual
friend so I got his text and come on
over and and Snowden does not want
publicity at
all and so but I really wanted to have
dinner with them so we had dinner in my
hotel room at the four seasons in Moscow
and I said I tried to convince him you
I'd love to do an interview shoot it on
my iPhone you know I'd love to take a
picture together and put it on the
internet because I just want to show
support because I think he's been
railroaded he he had no interest in
living in Russia no intention of being
in Russia the whole thing is all Li but
anyway whatever all this stuff and he
just said respectfully I'd rather not
anyone know that we met great the only
reason I'm telling you this is because
and I didn't tell anybody and I didn't
text it to anybody okay EX accept him
mhm semaphor
semaphor um runs this piece
saying report reporting information they
got from the US Intel agencies leaking
against me using my money in my name in
a supposedly free country they run this
piece saying I'd met with Snowden like
it was a crime or something so again my
interest is in the United States and
preserving freedoms here the ones that I
grew up with and if you have immediate
establishment that acts as an auxiliary
of or acts as employees of the National
Security State you don't have a free
country and that's where we are and I'm
not guessing because I spent my entire
life in that world 33 years I worked in
big news companies and so I know how it
works I know the people involved in it I
could name them Ben Smith of semaphor
among many others and I find that really
objectionable not just on principle
either in effect in practice I don't
want to live in that kind of country and
people are like they externalize all of
their anxiety about this I have noticed
so it's like Russia's not free yeah I
know you know neither's you know bkin
FASA like most countries aren't free
actually but we are we're the United
States we're different and that's my
concern preserving that is my concern
and so they get so exercised about
what's happening in other parts of the
world places they've never been know
nothing about it's almost a way of
ignoring what's happening in their own
country right around them I find it so
strange and sad and weird so the NSA was
tracking you as do you think CIA was
who's is are people still tracking you
look one of the things I did before I
went um just because of the business I'm
in all of us are in and just because we
live here you know we all have theories
about secure Communications channels
like signal is secure Telegraph isn't or
Whatsapp is owned by Mark Zuckerberg you
can't trust okay so I thought you know
before I go over here I was getting all
this we're having all these
conversations my producers and I about
this and I decideed you know I'm just G
to I'm just going to actually find out
like what's really going on so I talked
to two people um who would know trust me
and that's it's all I can say and I hate
to be like I talk to people who would
know by kenu there but I mean it they
would know and both of them said exactly
the same thing which is are you joking
nothing is secure everything is
monitored all the time if if State
actors are involved I mean you can keep
the you know whatever the Malaysian
Mafia from reading your text probably
you cannot keep the big Intel services
from reading your text it's not possible
any of them or listening to your calls
so and that was the firm conclusion of
people who've been involved in it you
know for a long time decades both in
both cases so I just thought you know
what I don't care I don't care I'm not
sending a ton of naked pictures of
myself to anybody not a ton just a
little a 54 dude probably not too many
um but but you so I'm like I'm just so
the guys travel with three people I work
with who I love who I've been around the
world with for many years and I know
them really really well and they all got
you know separate phones and I'm leaving
my other phone back in New York or
whatever and I just decided I don't care
actually and I resent
having to no privacy um because privacy
is a prerequisite for freedom um but I
can't change it and so I have the same
surveilled cell phone and you know I do
switch them out because there it is uh
because if you have too much spyware on
your phone this is true it wrecks the
battery
and no I'm serious it does and we got it
was I don't know five or six years ago
we went to North Korea and um my phone
started acting crazy and so I talked to
someone on the National Security Council
who's actually who called me about this
somehow knew that your phone is being
surveilled by the South Korean
government I was like why the I like the
South Korean government why would they
do that um because they want more
information they thought I was talking
to Trump or
whatever so but I could tell because all
of a sudden the thing would just drain
in like 45 minutes so that is that's a
downside so you keep uh switching phones
getting new phones for the battery life
that's good yeah I mean I try not to do
it you know I'm kind of flinty Yankee
type in some ways so I don't I don't
like to spend $1,000 with a freaking
Apple Corporation too often but yeah I
do I mean you say it lightly but it's
really Troublesome that you as a
journalist would be tracked well they
leaked it to semaphore and they leaked
it to the New York Times look it's I
would even put up well there's nothing I
can do so I have to put up with
everything okay but I would probably not
be actively angry about being shiled
because I'm just so old and I'm I
actually do pay my taxes not sleeping
with the makeup artist or whatever so I
don't care that much the fact that they
are leaking against me that the Intel
services in the United States are
actively engaged in US politics and
media that's so unacceptable that makes
democracy impossible there's no defense
of that and yet NBC News kend delanian
and the rest will defend it and it's
like and and not just on NBC News by the
way on the supposedly conservative
channels too they will defend it and
there's no defending that you can't
can't have democracy if the Intel
services are tampering in elections and
information period so you had no fear
you know your lawyer said be careful
which questions you asked you said I
don't have well the lawyer said no he
said very
specifically if you know depending on
the questions you ask
Putin um you know you could be arrested
or not and I said listen to what you're
saying you're saying the US government
has like control control over my
questions and they'll arrest me if I ask
the wrong question like how are we
better than Putin if that's true and by
the way that's just what the lawyer said
but I I can't
overstate one of the biggest law firms
the United States smart lawyers we've
used for years so I was I was really
shocked by it you said leaders kill
leaders lie yeah I don't believe in
leaders very much like this whole like
oh zelinski's Jesus and Putin's Satan
it's like no they're all leaders of
countries okay like grow up a little bit
you child do you have you ever met a
leader
like all of the first of all anyone who
seeks
power is damaged morally in my opinion
you shouldn't be seeking power you can't
seek power or wealth for its own sake
and remain a decent person that's just
true so there aren't any like really
virtuous billionaires and there aren't
any really virtuous world leaders you
have grades of virtue some are better
than others for
sure but I mean in other words zilinsky
may be better than Putin I'm open to
that
possibility but to claim that one is
evil and the other
is virtuous it's like you're revealing
that you're a child you don't know
anything about how the world actually is
or what reality is like it's it's that's
quite a realist perspective but there is
a spectrum there is a spectrum
absolutely I'm not saying they're all
the same they're not and our task is to
figure out where on the spectrum they
they lie and the
leader uh task is to confuse us and
convince us they're one of the good guys
of course but I actually reject even
that formulation I don't think it's
always about the leaders I mean of
course the leaders make the difference a
good leader has a healthy country and a
bad leader has a decaying country which
is something to think about um but it's
about the ideas and the policies and the
Practical effect of things so we're very
much caught up in the personalities of
various leaders not just our political
leaders but our Business Leaders our
cultural leaders are they good people do
they have the right thoughts it's like
no I I ask a much more basic question
what are the fruits of their behavior
now I always make it personal because I
think everything is personal does his
wife respect him do his children respect
him how are they doing is the country he
runs thriving or is it falling apart if
your life expectancy is going down if
your suicide rate is going up if your
standard of living is tanking you're not
a good leader I don't care what you tell
me I don't care what you claim you
represent I don't care about the ideas
or the systems that you say you embody
it's it's it's dogs barking to me how's
your life expectancy how's your suicide
rate what's drug use like are people
having children are are people's
children more likely to live in a free
or more prosperous Society than than you
did and their grandparents did like
those are the only measures that matter
to me the rest is a lie but anyway the
point is we just get so obsessed with
like the theater around people or people
and we miss the bigger things that are
happening and we we allow ourselves to
be deceived into thinking that what
doesn't matter at all matters that moral
victories are all that matters no
actually facts on the ground victories
matter more than anything I you
certainly see in this country black
lives matter for example how many black
people did that
help it hurt a lot of black people but
in the end we should be able to measure
it you know like what how many black
people have died by gunfire in the four
years since George Floyd died well the
numbers gone way way up and that was a
black lives matter operation defund the
police so I think we can say as a
factual matter
databased matter black lives matter
didn't help black people and if it did
tell me how well these are important
moral victories I'm over that that's
just another lie you know long Litany of
Lies so I try to see the rest of the
world that way and but more than
anything I try to see world events
through the lens of an American because
I am one and what does this mean for us
and it's not even the war it's the
sanctions that will forever change the
United States our standard of living the
way our government operates that more
than any single thing in my lifetime
screwed the United States leving those
sanctions in the way that we did was
crazy and that was that for me the main
takeaway from my eight days in Moscow
was not Putin he's a leader whatever
they're none of them are that different
actually in my pretty extensive
experience no it was Moscow that blew my
mind I was not prepared for that at all
and I thought I knew a lot about Moscow
my dad worked there on and off in the
80s and 90s CU US government employee
and he was always coming back Moscow
it's a nightmare and all this stuff no
electricity I got there almost exactly
two years after sanctions totally cut
off from Western Financial systems
kicked out of Swift can't use US Dollars
no banking no credit cards and that City
it just fact
I'm not endorsing the system I'm not
endorsing the whole country I didn't go
to Lake ball you know I didn't go to
turkistan I just went to Moscow largest
city in Europe 13 million people I drove
all around it and that city is way nicer
outwardly anyway I don't live there than
any City we have by a lot and by nicer
let me be specific no graffiti no
homeless no people using drugs in the
street totally tidy no garbage on the
ground and no no Forest of Steel and
concrete Soul destroying buildings none
of the postmodern architecture that
oppresses us without without even our
knowledge none of that crap it's a truly
beautiful city and that's not an
endorsement of Putin and by the way it
didn't make me love Putin it made me
hate my own leaders because I grew up in
a country that had cities kind of like
that that were nice cities that were
safe and I we don't have that anymore
and how did that happen did Putin do
that I don't think Putin did that
actually I think the people in charge of
that the Mayors the governors the
president they did that and they should
be held accountable for it so I think
cleanliness and Architectural design is
not the entirety of the metrics that
matter when you measure a city they're
the main metrics that matter they're the
main metrics that matter the main
metrics that matter are cleanliness
safety and Beauty in my opinion and one
of the big lies that we are
told in our world is that no something
you can't measure that has no actual
effect on your life matters
most bullshit what matters most to say
it again Beauty safety cleanliness lots
of other things matter too A whole bunch
of things matter but if I were to put
them in order it's not some like
theoretical well actually I don't know
if you know that the Duma has no power
okay I get that freedom of speech
matters enormously to me they have less
freedom of speech in Russia than we do
in the United States we are superior to
them in that way but you can't tell me
that living in a city where you know
your six-year-old daughter can walk to
the bus stop and ride on a clean bus or
ride in a beautiful subway car that's on
time and not get assaulted that doesn't
matter no that matters almost more than
anything actually and we can have both
and like the normal regime Defenders and
morons John Stewart or whatever he's
calling himself they're like well that's
the price of Freedom like people
shitting on the sidewalk is the price of
Freedom it's like you can't fool me
because I've lived here for 54 years I
know that it's not the price of Freedom
cuz I lived in a country that was both
free and clean and orderly so that's not
a trade-off I think I have to make you
can't that is the beauty of being a
little bit older because you're like no
I remember that actually it wasn't what
you're saying we didn't have racial
segregation in
1985 it was a really nice country that
kind of respected itself I was here and
I think with younger people you can tell
them that and they're like 1985 were you
know selling slaves in Madison Square
Garden it's like no they weren't you're
going to Madison Square Garden and not
stepping over a single fenel addict it
is true there doesn't have to be a
trade-off between cleanliness and
freedom of
speech but it is also true that in
dictatorships cleanliness is and
Architectural design is easier to
achieve and perfect and often is done so
so you can show off look how great our
cities are while you're suppressing of
course of course I agree with that
vehemently this is not a defense of the
Russian system at all and if I felt that
way I would not only move there but I
would announc I was moving there I'm not
ashamed of My Views I never have been
and for all the people who are trying to
impute secret motives to my
words I'm like the one person in America
you don't need to do that with if you
think I'm a racist ask me and I'll tell
you are you a racist of no I am a sexist
though right great anyway no but if I
was like a defender of Vladimir Putin I
would just say I'm defending Vladimir
Putin now I'm not I am attacking our
leaders and I'm grieving over the low
expectations of our people you don't
need to put up with this you don't need
to put up with foreign Invaders stealing
from you you know occupying your kids
school your kids can't get an education
because people from foreign countries
broke our laws and shut up here and
they've taken over the school that it's
that's not a feature of Freedom actually
that's the opposite it that's what
enslavement looks like and so I'm just
saying raise your expectations a little
bit you can have a clean functional safe
country crime is totally optional crime
is something our leaders decide to have
or not have it's not something just
appears
organically I I wrote a book about crime
30 years ago I I've thought a lot about
this you have as much crime as you put
up with period and it doesn't make you
less free to not tolerate murder in fact
it makes you unfree to have a lot of
murders
uh and so I just but it makes me sad
that people are like well you know I
guess this is t i I can't like live in
New York City anymore because of
inflation and filth and illegal aliens
and people shooting each other but you
know I'm just I'm glad because this is
vibrant and strong and free it's like
that's not Freedom actually at all your
point is well taken you can have both
but do you regret we had both that's the
point we had I saw thought do you regret
to
degree using the Moscow Subway and the
grocery store as a mechanism by which to
make that point no I mean I thought I I
mean look I'm one of the more
unself-aware people you will ever
interview so to ask me uh you know how
will this be
perceived I literally have no idea and
kind of limited interest but um I
I was so shocked by it I was so shocked
by it and and there were two and to the
extent I regret anything and am to blame
for anything it would be not and I've
done this a lot not giving it context
not fully explaining why are we doing
this the grocery store I was shocked by
the prices and yes I'm familiar with
exchange rates but very familiar with
exchange rates but those don't and I
adjusted them for exchange rates and
this is 2 years in to sanctions total
isolation from the
so I would expect in fact I did expect
until I got there that their supply
Chains would be crushed how do you get
good stuff if you don't have access to
Western
markets and I didn't fully get the
answer because I was occupied doing
other things when I was there but
somehow they have and that's the point
and they haven't had the supply chains
Pro problems that I predicted in other
words sanctions haven't made the country
noticeably worse okay so again this is
commentary of the United States and our
policy makers why are we doing this
it's forcing the rest of the world into
a block against us called bricks they're
getting off the US dollar that will mean
a lot of dollars are going to come back
here and destroy our economy and
impoverish this country so the
consequences the stakes are really high
they're huge and we're not even hurting
Russia so like what the hell are we
doing one on the subway that Subway was
built by Joseph Stalin right before the
second world war I'm not endorsing
Stalin I obviously Stalin col ism is a
thing that I hate and I don't want to
come to my country I'm making the
obvious point that for over 80 years
you've had these Fresco and chandeliers
maybe they've been redone or whatever
but like somehow the society has been
able to not destroy what its ancestors
built the things that are worth having
and they're a
lot and that like why don't we have that
and E even on a much more terrestrial
plane like why can't I have a subway
station like that why can't my children
who live in New York City ride the
subway
people I know who live in New York City
are afraid to ride the subway young
women especially that's Freedom no again
it's slavery and how can if Putin can do
this why can't we like what it's not in
other words I mean this is like so
obvious I'm a traitor okay so if I'm
calling for American citizens to demand
more from their government and higher
standards for their own society and
remember that just 30 years ago we had a
much different and much happier and
cleaner and healthier societ Society
where everyone wasn't fat with diabetes
at 40 from poisoned
food like how is that I'm not a Traer to
my country I'm a defender of my country
by the way the people calling me a
traitor they're all like you know
whatever uh they're not I I would not
say there are people who put America's
interest first to put it mildly there's
many elements like you said you don't
like
stalinism you know you're a student of
History Central planning is good at
building Subways in a way that's really
nice the thing that accounts for New
York subways by the way there's a lot of
really positive things about New York
subways not cleaniness but the
efficiency like the accessibility how
how wide it spreads like that now the
New York network is incredible but but
Moscow for different in different under
different metrics results of a
capitalist system and you actually said
that you don't think us is quite a
capitalist system which is an
interesting question itself we have more
Central planning here than they do in
Russia no that's not true of course it
is you think that's true the climate
agenda of course they're telling the US
government has in League with a couple
of big companies decided to change the
way we produce and consume energy
there's no popular outcry for that
there's never been any mass movement of
Americans who like I just I hate my
gasoline powered engine no more diesel
that has been Central planning that is
Central planning and you see it up and
down our economy there's no free market
in the United States you get Crossways
with the government you're done if
you're at scale I mean maybe you've got
a barber shop or a liquor store or
something but even then you're
regulated by politicians and so no we I
actually am for free markets I hate
monopolies our economy is dominated by
monopolies completely dominated like
what do you mean Google what percentage
of search does Google have 90 Google's a
monopoly by any definition and Google is
just Rich enough to continue doing
whatever it wants in violation of US law
so there's no Monopoly in Russia as big
as Google I'm not again defending the
Russian system I'm calling for a return
to our old system which was sensible and
moderate and put the needs of Americans
at least somewhere in the top 10
somewhere in the top 10 I'm not saying
that standard oil was like interested in
the welfare of average Americans but I
am saying that there was a constituency
in our political system in the Congress
for example different presidential
candidates like no wait a second what is
this doing to people is it good for
people not there's not even a
conversation about that it's like shut
up and submit to Ai and no offense and
so I'm just offense taken I'm just I I
will WR I we will get you when it's
stronger I have no doubt you'll be the
first one to go well as a white man I
just won't even exist anymore so so much
to say on that one I bet when you Google
my picture 20 years from now it'll be a
black chick
100% well I hope she's attractive I hope
so too it' probably be an upgrade
um so well the the central planning
point is really interesting but I I just
don't I I don't know where you're coming
from there's a capital
system I mean the United States is one
of the most successful capitalist
systems in history of of Earth so to say
what's the most successful I'm just
saying that I think it's changed a lot
in the last 15 years and that we need to
update our assumptions about what we're
seeing sure and that's that's true up
and down that's true with everything
it's true with your neighbor children
who you haven't seen in 3 years and they
come home from Wesley and and you're
like oh you've grown that is true for
the world around us as well and most of
our assumptions about immigration about
our economy about our tax system are
completely
outdated if you compare them to the
current reality and so I'm just for
updating my files and I have a big
advantage over you because I am
middle-aged and so I don't you've called
yourself old so many times throughout I
don't trust my perceptions of things so
I'm constantly trying to be like is that
true I should go there you know should
see it and I guess just in the end I
trust I trust direct perceptions like I
don't trust the internet actually
Wikipedia is a joke Wikipedia could not
be more dishonest it's certainly in the
political categories are things that I
know a lot about occasionally I read an
entry written about something that I saw
or know the people involved and I'm like
well that's a complete liar you left out
the most important fact and it's like
it's not a reliable guide to reality or
history and that will accelerate with AI
where history our perception of the past
is completely
controlled um and distorted so I think
just getting out there and seeing stuff
and seeing that Moscow was not what I
thought it would be which was a
smoldering ruin you know rats in a
garbage dump it was nicer than New York
what the hell direct data is good but
it's challenging for example if you talk
to a lot of people in Moscow or in
Russia and you ask them is there
censorship they will usually say yes
there is oh of course there is well I
agree I mean just to be clear I'm not I
have no plans to move to Russia I think
I would probably be arrested if I moved
to Russia Ed Snowden who is you know the
most famous sort of openness
transparency advocate in the world I
would say along with
Assange doesn't want to live in Russia
he's had problems with the Putin
government he's attacked Putin they
don't like it I mean I get it I get it
I'm just saying
what are the lessons for us and the main
lesson is we are being lied
to like in a way that's
bewildering and very upsetting I was mad
about it all eight days I was there
because I feel like I'm better informed
than most people because it's my job to
be informed and I'm skeptical of
everything and yet I was completely
Hoodwinked by it I I would just
recommend to everyone watching this like
you think you know like if you're really
interested if you're one of those people
and I'm not one but who's like waking up
every day and you've got a Ukrainian
flag on your mailbox or whatever your
Ukrainian lapel pin or this like absurd
theater but if you like sincerely care
about Ukraine or Russia or whatever why
you just hop on a plane for 800 bucks
and go see it okay no one that doesn't
occur to anyone to do that and I know it
it's time consuming and kind of
expensive sort of not really um but you
benefit so much I mean I could bore you
for like eight hours and I know you've
had this experience where you think you
know what something is or you think you
know who someone is and then you have
direct experience of that place or
person and you realize all your
preconceptions were totally wrong they
were controlled by somebody else like
you know in fact I won't betray
confidences but off the air we were
talking about somebody and you said I
couldn't believe the person was not at
all like what I thought well that's
happened to me in the positive direction
in the positive direction by the way for
me it's almost always in that direction
most people I meet and I've had the
great privilege of meeting a lot you
know a lot of people over all this time
they're way better than you think or
they're more complicated ated or or
whatever but the point is a direct
experience unmediated by Liars there's
no substitute for that well on that
point direct experience in Ukraine so I
visited Ukraine and witnessed a lot of
the same things you witnessed in Moscow
so first of all beautiful architecture
yes and this is a country that's really
in war so it's not oh for real like for
real where most of the men are either
volunteering or fighting in the war and
there's actual tanks and the streets
that are going into your major city of
Kia and still the supply chains are
working a handful of months after the
start of the war everything is working
uh the restaurants are amazing uh the
most of the people are able to do some
kind of job like like the life goes on
um cleanliness like you mentioned
security like it's incredible like
there's like crime went to zero they
they gave all guns to everybody
the the Texas strategy it does work yeah
when you witness it you realize okay
there's something to these people
there's something to this country that
they're not as corrupt as you might hear
you hear that Russia is corrupt Ukraine
is corrupt you're you assume it's just
all going to go to shit well so that's
been and I haven't been Ukraine and I've
certainly tried and they put me on some
kill him immediately list so I can't
I've tried to interview zalinsky he
keeps denouncing me I just want an
interview with him he won't
unfortunately I would love to do it I
hope you do I hope I do too but one of
the um things that bothers me most I
love to hear that what you just said
about K and but I'm not really surprised
one of the things that I'm most ashamed
of is the bigotry that I felt toward
Slavic people also toward Muslims I'll
just be totally honest because I lived
through Decades of propaganda from NBC
News and CNN where I worked you know
about this or that group of people and
they're horrible or whatever and then
you w and I kind of believed it and I've
see it now like we can't even put the
word Russia at limeton cuz it's so
offensive what does the tennis player
have to do with it did he invade Ukraine
I don't think he did you know stealing
all these business guys yachts and
denounce them as oligarchs like what do
they have to do with it you know
whatever here's my point the idea that
like a whole group of people is just
evil because of their blood I just don't
believe that I think it's immoral to
think that and I can just tell you my
own experience after 8 days
there I think it's a really interesting
culture Slavic culture which is by the
way by Russia and Ukraine of course
they're their first cousins at the most
distant and
um I found them really smart and
interesting and informed I didn't
understand a lot of what they were
saying I don't understand the way their
minds work because I'm American but it
wasn't a thin culture it's a thick
culture you know and I admire that and I
wish I could go to Ukraine I would go
tomorrow so I think after you did the
interview with Putin you put a clip I
think on TCN where like you're sort of
analysis afterwards yeah it wasn't much
of an analysis no but what stood out to
me is you were kind of talking shit
about Putin a little bit like you were
criticizing why wouldn't I it spoke to
the thing that you mentioned which is
you you weren't uh afraid now the
question I want to ask is it' be pretty
badass if you went to the supermarket
and made the point you were making but
also criticize Putin right criticize
that there is a lack of freedom of
speech and freedom of the press and in
the
supermarket yes Oh Oh you mean if I also
said that well yeah I mean I of course I
think that I'm not so I guess part of it
is that I'm a little because I have such
a low opinion of the commentariat in the
United States and the and the News
organizations which really do just work
for the US government I mean I really
see them as I did is vestia and Pravda
in the 80s like they're just organs of
the government and I think they're
contemptible I think the people who work
there are contempt and I say that as
someone who knows them really well
personally
I think they're disgusting um that I I'm
a little bit cut off kind of from what
people are saying about me because I'm
not interested but um so I try not to be
defensive like see I'm not a tool of
Putin but the idea that I'd be flacking
for Putin when you know my relatives
fought in the Revolutionary War like I'm
as American as you could be um it's like
crazy to me and apple bomb calls me a
traitor to my okay right it's just like
so dumb I but no of course they don't
have fre no country has freedom of
speech other than us Canada doesn't have
it Great Britain definitely doesn't have
it France Netherlands these are
countries I spent a lot of time in and
Russia certainly doesn't have it so
that's why I don't live there I'm just
saying our sanctions don't work that's
all I was saying and we don't have to
live like animals we can live with
dignity even the Russians can do it
that's kind of what I was saying even
the Russians under Vladimir freaking
Putin can live like this and no it's not
a feature of dictator ship that's the
most I think discouraging and most
dishonest line by people like John
Stewart who really are trying to prepare
the population for accepting a lot less
he is really a tool of the regime in a
Sinister way always has been um like how
dare you expect that what are you a
stalinist it's like no I'm an American
I'm like a decent person I just want to
be able to walk to the grocery store
without being murdered is that too much
to ask shut up that you don't believe in
Freedom it's really dark if you think
about it you know so there is a
fundamental way which you wanted
Americans to expect more you don't have
to live like this we don't have to live
like this you don't have to accept it
you don't and everyone's afraid in this
country they're going to be shut down by
the tech oligarchs or have the FBI show
up at their houses or go to jail and
people are legit afraid of that in the
United States and my feeling is so like
show a little courage like what is it
worth to you for your grandchildren to
live in a free prosperous country it
should be worth more than your comfort
that's how I feel we should make clear
that you know by many measures you look
at the World Press Freedom index you're
right us is not at the top nor Norway is
us is scores 71 same as
Gambia West Africa so let me just ask
hold hold on a second hold on a second
hold on a second now you're making me
laugh Ukraine is 61 and and Russia is 35
the lower it is the worse close to China
at 23 and North Korea at the very bottom
22 didn't think Ukraine put Gonzalo lra
in jail till he died for criticizing the
government how can they have a high
press yes that's why there a 61 but I'm
saying I don't know what the criteria
are they're using to arrive at that but
I know press Freedom when I see it I try
to practice it which is saying what you
think is true correcting yourself when
you've been shown to be wrong as I have
many times um being as honest as you can
be all the time and not being afraid and
those are wholly absent in my country
wholly absent people are afraid in the
news business I would know since I spent
my life working there and they're afraid
to tell the truth they're under an
enormous amount of pressure and a lot of
them have little kids and mortgages I've
been there so I have sympathy but they
go along with things like you would you
are not allowed if you stand up at any
cable channel any cable channel in the
United States and say wait a second how
did the Ukrainian government throw a US
citizen into prison until he died for
criticizing the Ukrainian government and
we're paying for that that's what's
that's why it's offensive mean we're
paying for it that happens all the time
around the world of course but this a US
citizen and we're paying the pensions of
Ukrainian bureaucrats like we we are the
Ukrainian government at this point and
like if you said that on TV on any
channel well you you know you'd lose
your job for that so like that's not I
don't care or Norway is at the top
really Norway way if I went to Norwegian
television and said NATO blew up
nordstream which it did NATO blew up
nordstream the United States government
with the help of other governments blew
up committed the largest Act of
industrial terrorism in history and by
the way the largest environmental crime
the largest emission of CO2
methane could I keep my job no so how is
that a free we don't know that I mean
the whole point of in Norway as a
Scandinavian I can tell you they would
not put up Norway for a second deviating
for the majority no
well but in it's deviating maybe is uh
frowned upon but frowned upon yeah but
do you have the freedom to say it if you
do deviate that's the question can you
keep your job that's one measurement of
it yeah it's not the only measurement
obviously being thrown into prison is
much worse than losing your job I've
been fired a number of times for saying
what I think by the way um and it's fine
I've enjoyed it I don't mind being fired
it's I've always become a better person
after it
happened but it is one measurement of
Freedom if you know if you have the
theoretical right to do something but no
practical ability to do it do you have
the right to do it and the answer is not
really actually you mentioned John
Stewart the two of you have a bit of a
history I don't know if you've seen it
but he kind of grilled your supermarket
and Subway videos have you got a chance
to see it I haven't seen it um but
someone characterized it to me which is
why I pivoted against it earli in our
conversation about how the price of
freedom is living in filth and Chaos
yeah that was essentially it so in 2004
that's 20 years ago uh John Stewart
appeared on CrossFire I show he hosted
and that was kind of
a memorable moment can you uh tell The
Saga of that as you remember it I mean
for me you know as I was saying to you
before about how it takes a long time to
digest and process and understand what
happens to you at least it does for me I
didn't understand that as a particularly
significant moment while it was
happening I just got off a plane from
Hawaii I mean I was out of it as usual
and I was very literal as usual um and
so from my perspective his criticism of
me to the extent I remember it was that
I was a partisan well he had two CR one
that Crossfire was stupid which it
certainly was in fact i' had already
given my notice and I was moving on to
another company by that point um
Crossfire was was stupid Crossfire
didn't help Crossfire framed everything
as Republican versus
Democrat um whatever it was not helpful
to the public discourse I couldn't agree
more and that's why I
left so that was part of his critique
fair I'm not sure I would have admitted
it at the time because I worked there
and it's sort of hard to admit you're
engaged in an Enterprise that's like
fundamentally worthless which it was but
uh but his other point was that I was
somehow a partisan or a Mindless
partisan which is definitely not true um
it is true of him he is a Mindless
partisan U but I am not and I haven't
been for I really haven't been since I
got back from Baghdad at the beginning
of the Iraq War and I realized that the
Republican party which I'd voted for you
know my whole life to that point and had
supported in
general
um was like pushing this really horrible
thing that was going to hurt the United
States which in time it it really did
the Iraq War really hurt the United
States and I realized that I had been on
the wrong side of that I said so
publicly immediately from Baghdad I said
that to the New York Times and I really
meant it I mean it now and so to call me
part an you could call me stupid you
could call me wrong I certainly have
been wrong but partisan I just didn't
think it was a meaningful I mean it's
like that's just not true it's the
opposite of true so I didn't really take
it seriously at all and um I and I never
thought much of him so I was like
whatever some buffoon jumping around on
my show grandstanding um but I do think
it was record and by the way that
happened right at the moment that
YouTube began I think that was one of
the first big YouTube it was one of the
first big YouTube videos so it it had a
verality that if that's a word it went
everywhere uh in a way that didn't used
to happen in cable news I mean by that
point I had that was 20 years ago as you
point out I've been in cable news for
nine years so in the before 2004 we
would say something on television and
then it would kind of it would be lost
like people could claim they heard it
but you'd have to go to the I think the
University of Tennessee at Knoxville
archives to get it suddenly everything
we said would live forever on the
internet which is good by the way it's
not bad but it was a big change for me
and I just couldn't believe
how widely that was discussed at the
time because I thought he was not a an
interesting person I think he's he's
obviously a very unhappy person um I
just didn't take him seriously then and
and I don't now but uh so anyway that
was it it was a smaller thing in my life
at the time than other people imagined
okay you said a lot of that will make it
sound like you're a bit bitter even if
you're not so you said unhappy person
partisan gu well he's definitely
partisan for sure so can you elaborate
why you think he's well so I think that
and I see this a lot not only on the
left but people who believe that
whatever political debate they're
engaged in is the most important debate
in the world and so they bring an
emotional intensity to those debates and
they're inevitably disappointed because
no no Eternal question is solved
politically so they're kind of on the
wrong path right and they're doomed to
frustration um if they believe that and
many do he certainly does that whatever
the issue is is so you know Clarence
Thomas should not be Supreme Court
Justice and the implication is well if
someone else is Supreme Court Justice
will live in a fair and happy Society
but that's just not it's a false promise
so I think that people who bring that
level of intensity to politics are by
definition bitter by definition
disappointed bitter in the way the
disappointed people are and that the
real questions are like what happens
when you die and how do the people
around you feel about you you know those
are those are not the only questions in
life but they're certain the most
important ones and if we're spending a
disproportionate amount of time on who
gets elected to some office not that
it's irrelevant it is relevant but it's
not the Eternal question and so I feel
like he's not the only kind of bitter
silly person in Washington or in its in
its orbit there are many and a lot of
them are Republicans so um but I just
thought it was ironic I mean everything
is ironic to me but like being called a
Russia sympathizer by a guy who calls
himself Boris like it just made me laugh
no one else has ever laughed at that
Boris Johnson's real name is not Boris
as you know he calls himself Boris it's
his middle name um and so like if you
call yourself Boris you don't really
have standing to attack anyone else as a
Russia Defender right that's my I think
that's funny no one else as I noted does
but
um but John Stewart like you know if if
he
there are a lot of things you could say
about me but he's much more partisan
than I am so to call me a partisan it's
like what he would probably say that
he's not a partisan that he's a comedian
who's looking for the humor and the
absurdity of the system both Sid he's a
dead Ser he's a very serious person in
this I will say this and he shares this
quality with a lot of comedians I know a
lot of
comedians I know a cross-section of
people just having done this job for a
long time and uh a lot of them are very
serious like about their views and they
have a lot L of emotional intensity and
he certainly is in that category he's
not that's that's like the silliest
thing yeah he's a comedian for sure he
can be very funny for sure he has talent
no doubt about it I've never denied that
but he is a he's motivated by
um by his moral views you know this is
right that is wrong and and I just think
that's it's a
misapplied passion what do you think I'm
just a
comedian is um I don't think any serious
person thinks that I mean if you're just
a comedian be and and I look I'm I'm not
trying to claim I couldn't claim that I
haven't said a lot of dumb things and
one of the dumbest things I ever said
was when he was on our set lecturing me
you know he's he's a moralizer which I
also just don't really care for as an
aesthetic matter but he um he was
lecturing me about something and I said
I thought you were here to tell
jokes which I shouldn't have said
because he wasn't there to tell jokes he
was there to to lecture me and I should
have just engaged directly rather than
trying to diminish him by like you're
just a little comedian well he doesn't
see himself that way but I would just
say this John Stewart's a defender of
power like John Stewart has never
criticized like what's John Stewart's
view on you know the aid we've sent to
Ukraine the 100 billion dollars or
whatever like what happened to that
money what happened to the weapons that
I bought he doesn't care he has the
exact same priorities as the people
permanently in charge in Washington so
whatever he does he's not alone in that
so does mik binski and her husband and
all the rest of the cast of dummies but
if you're going to pretend to be the guy
who's giving the finger to entrench
power you should do it once in a while
and he never has there's not one time
when he said something that would be
deeply unpopular on Morning Joe that's
all I'm saying and so don't call
yourself a truth tell you're you're a
court comedian or a what a flatterer of
power okay that's fine there's a role
for that but don't pretend to be
something else I'll just be honest that
I watched it just recently that video
and from 20 years ago from 20 years ago
I watched it initially and I remember
very differently I remembered that John
Stewart completely destroyed you in that
conversation and I watched it and you
asked a very good question of him which
was and you there was no destruction
first of all uh and you asked a very
good question of him why when you got a
chance to interview John krey did you
ask a bunch of sof ball questions yeah I
thought that was a really fair question
and then his defense was well I'm just a
comedian so I thought that was
disingenuous and I haven't watched it I
never have watched a clip one time in my
life and um I don't like to watch myself
on television I never have so that and
that's my fault and I probably should
force myself to watch it though of
course I never will but I um I think the
takeaway for me which was really
interesting and life-changing was I
agree with your assess I'm not just I've
lost a lot of debates I've been
humiliated on television I'm not above
that it certainly happened to me it will
happen again but I didn't feel like it
was a clear win for him at all you know
maybe a TKO but it was not a knockout at
all and yet it was recorded that way and
I remember thinking well that's kind of
weird that's not what I remember and
then I realized no John Stewart was more
popular than I was therefore he was
recorded as the winner and that was hard
for me to accept because that struck me
as unfair you should rate any contest on
points like here the rules we're going
to judge the contest in the basis of
those rules and no in the end it's just
like the more popular guy wins every TV
critic like John Stewart every one of
them hated me therefore he won and I was
like wow that I guess I have to accept
that
reality and you do like the reality of
the sunrise you just have you know
you're not in charge of it so that's
just what it is unfortunately it's a bit
darker I think the reason he's seen as
the winner and the reason at the time I
saw as the quote unquote winner is
because he was basically shitting on you
like personal attacks versus engaging
ideas
and it was it was funny in a dark way
and like making fun of the bow tie and
all this kind of stuff
andir and it wasir called me a dick I
remember he called me a dick and I
remember even when he said that I was
like yeah I'm definitely a dick yeah and
that's not my best quality trust me I
but also to be kind of I thought John
Stewart came off as a giant dick at that
time and I'm a big fan of his and I
think he is improved a lot so we should
also say that like people grow people
like I certainly have or change anyway
you hope it's growth you hope it's not
shrinkage but um but it is old outside
yeah I I mean look I I I haven't
followed John Stewart's um career at all
I don't have a television like I'm
pretty cut off from all that stuff but
uh so I wouldn't really know but the
measure to me is are you taking
positions that are unpopular with the
most powerful people in the world and
how often are you doing it it's super
simple not for its own sake but do you
feel free
enough to say you know to the consensus
I disagree and if you don't then you're
just another Toady that's my view well I
think he probably feels free enough to
do it but you're saying he doesn't do it
on the big things look the big things
this is my estimation of it Others May
disagree the big things are the economy
and War okay the big things government
does can be I a lot of things government
does government does everything at this
point
but where we kill people and how and for
what purpose and how we organize the
economic engine that keeps the country
afloat those are the two big questions
and I hear almost no debate debate about
either one of them in the media and I
and I have dissenting views on both of
them Ian I'm I'm mad about the tax code
which I think is unfair I don't think we
should
be the fact we have a carried interest
loophole in the tax code and people are
claiming that their income is investment
income and they're paying half the tax
rate as someone who just goes to work
every day it discourages work it
encourages lending at interest which I
think is gross personally I'm against it
sorry and um and the fact that we're
creating chaos around the world like is
the saddest thing that's happening right
now and nobody feels free to say that so
that's not good how do you hope the war
in Ukraine ends with a settlement with a
reasonable settlement and you know what
a reasonable settlement is
which is um a settlement you know where
both sides feel like they're giving a
little but can live with it and I I mean
I was really struck in my conversation
with Putin by how he basically refused
to criticize Joe Biden and to critize
Nato and it is I will just to be honest
as an American it would be a little
weird to be like pissing on Joe Biden
with a foreign leader any foreign leader
even though I don't think Joe Biden is a
real person or really president I the
whole thing is ridiculous but still he
is the American president technically
and I don't want to beat up on the
American president with a foreigner just
don't maybe I'm oldfashioned so that's
how I feel so I didn't push it but I
thought it was really interesting and
because of course Putin knows my views
on Joe Biden he knew I applied to the
CIA so they've done some done some
digging on me and um but he didn't
mention it and he didn't attack NATO and
the reason is I know for a fact because
he wants a settlement and he wants a
settlement not because Russia's about to
collapse despite the lying of our media
that's just not true and no one is even
saying it anymore cuz it's so dumb he
wants you because it's just it's just
bad to have a war and it changes the
world in ways you can't predict people
die everything about it is sad and if
you can avoid it you should so I would
like to see a settlement where look the
thing that Russia wants and I think
probably has a right to is not to have
NATO missiles on its border like I don't
know why we would do that I don't know
what we get out of it um I I just don't
even understand it I don't understand
the purpose of NATO I don't think NATO
is good for the United States I think
it's an attack on our sovereignty I
would pull out of NATO immediately if I
were the US president because I don't
think it helps the US I know a lot of
people are getting their bread buttered
by NATO um but I anyway that's my view
as an American as a if I'm a Russian or
Ukrainian let's let's just be Sovereign
countries now we're not run by the US
state department we're just our own
countries like that's I believe in
sovereignty okay so that's my view and I
also want to say one thing about
zalinsky I I attacked him before because
I was so
offended by his Cavalier talk about
nuclear exchange because it would kill
my family so I'm really offended by that
anyone who talks that way I'm offended
by but I do feel for zalinski I do that
he didn't he didn't run for president to
have this happen I think zeny's been
completely misused by the state
department by Toran nulan by our
secretary of state by the policy makers
in the US who've used Ukraine as a
vessel for their Ambitions their
geopolitical Ambitions but also the many
American businesses who've used Ukraine
as a way to fleece the American taxpayer
and then by just independent ghouls like
Boris Johnson are hoping to get rich
from interviews on it like the whole
thing zinski is at the center of this
he's not driving history NATO and the
United States is driving history Putin
is driving history there's this guy
zalinski
so you know I I do feel for him and I
think he's in a perilous place do you
think uh zinski is a hero for staying in
Kiev because I do to me you can
criticize a lot of things you should
call out things that are obviously
positive I I just tried to a second ago
I don't I don't know um the extent that
he is in Kev he seems to be in the
United States an awful lot like way too
much you can do a satellite interview
you don't have to speak to my Congress
you're not an American please leave yeah
that's my opinion but um you got many
zingers Tucker no no no it's just
heartfelt there just bubbling up from
the Wellspring that never turns off um
but I would say this about
zinski yeah to the extent he's in
Ukraine good man you know George W bush
fled Washington on 911 I lived there
with three kids and he ran away to some
Air Force Base in South Dakota and I
thought that was cowardly and I said so
at the time and I man was I attacked for
saying that and I wrote a column about
it New York Magazine where I then had a
column hard to believe and uh but I felt
that I felt that like that's I think the
prerequisites of leadership are really
basic the first is caring about the
people people you lead that's number one
you know deep in the way a father cares
for his children an officer cares for
his troops a president should care for
his people and and that leads inexorably
to the next requirement which is bravery
physical courage and I believe in that
and I'm not like some tough guy but I
just think it's obvious if you're in
charge you you know I'm at my house and
I feel like someone broke in I'm not
going to say to my wife hey baby go go
deal with the home in Invasion I'm going
to deal with it because I'm Dad okay so
if you're the president of a country and
your capital city is attacked as ours
was at the Pentagon and you run away
when the Secret Service told me to bitch
are you in charge like who's daddy here
the Secret Service do you know what I
mean I found that totally contemptible
and I said so and man did I get a leure
not just from Republicans but from
Democrats oh you don't know put yourself
in that position I was like okay I don't
know what I would do under that kind of
stress enormous stress I get it I know
one thing I wouldn't do is run away cuz
you can't do that and if you're not
willing to Die For Your Country then you
shouldn't be leading it so yes to the
extent if if zinsky really is in Ukraine
most of the time amen wellit hold on a
second let's clarify it's not about
whether he's in Ukraine most of the time
or not I thought that was the whole
premise of the no no no at the at the
beginning of the war when the tank when
Kev when a lot of people thought that
the second biggest military in the world
is pointing its gun in Kiev is going to
be taken and a man a leader who stays in
that City and says fuck it when
everybody around him says flee says
everybody around him believes the city
will be taken or at least destroyed you
know leveled artillery Bombs all of this
he chooses to stay you know a lot of
leaders how many leaders would choose to
stay well the leader of Afghanistan the
us-backed leader when the Taliban came
got in a US plane with US Dollars and
and ran away and and of of course is
living on those dollars now so yeah
there's a lot of cowardly Behavior good
for him I um I mean I guess I'm looking
at it slightly differently which is
what's the op what's the option you're
the leader of the country you can't
leave like Stalin never left Moscow
during the war it was surrounded by the
Germans as you know um for a year and he
didn't leave and when I was in Russia
they're like stal never left it's like
yeah he's the leader of the country you
can't I mean like that's just table
Stakes of course I would say but you
rais an interesting by impli question
which
is you know what about Kiev like you
think the Russians couldn't level Kev of
obviously they could why haven't they
they could but they haven't well there's
there's military answers to that which
is urban Warfare is extremely difficult
do you think that Putin wants to take KF
no I do think he expected ziny to flee
and and somebody else to come into power
yeah that may be to I I don't I don't
know I don't think I I have no idea what
Putin was thinking um when he did
that about zalinski I didn't ask him but
it's a mistake to imagine this is a
contest between Putin and zalinski this
is Putin versus the US state department
I mean zalinski that that's why I said I
felt sorry for him I mean as I said
we're literally paying the pensions of
Ukrainian bureaucrats so there is no
Ukrainian government independent of the
US government and you know maybe you're
for that maybe you're against it but you
can't endorse that in the same sentence
that you use the term democracy because
that's not a democracy right obviously
well that's why it's interesting that he
didn't really bring up NATO extensively
he wants a settlement he wants a
settlement and he doesn't want to fight
with them rhetorically and he just wants
to get this done and he made a bunch of
offers um at the peace deal and you know
we wouldn't even know this happened if
the Israelis hadn't told us and I'm so
grateful that they did um that Johnson
was dispatched by the state department
to stop it and it's
like I I mean I think Boris Johnson is a
husk of a man but imagine if you were
Boris Johnson and you you know you spend
your whole life with Ukraine flag pin
I'm for Ukraine and then all those kids
died because of what you did and the
lines haven't really moved it hasn't
been a victory for Ukraine it's not
going to be a victory for Ukraine it's
like how do you how do you feel about
yourself if you did that I mean I've
done a lot of shitty things in my life I
feel bad about them but I've never
extended a war for no reason like that's
a pretty grave sin in my opinion you
know yes that was a failure but it
doesn't mean you can't have a success
over and over and over keep having uh
negotiations between leaders well we're
not allow the US government is not
allowing negotiations and so that for me
is the most upsetting part it's like in
the end what Russia does I'm not
implicated in that what Ukraine does I'm
not implicated in that I'm not Russian
or Ukrainian I'm an American who grew up
really believing in my country I'm
supporting my country through my tax
dollars
and it's like I really care about what
the US government does because they're
doing it in my name and I care a lot cuz
I'm American
and we're the impediment to peace which
is another way of saying we're
responsible for all these innocent
people getting droned out of public
parks in KV and sent to go die like what
H that is not good I'm ashamed of it
what do you think of Putin saying that
justification for continuing the war is
densification I thought it was one of
the dumbest things I'd ever heard I
don't understand what it meant
densification it literally means what it
sounds like you know I yeah I mean I
have a lot of thoughts on this I don't I
hate that whole conversation because
it's not real it's just ad homonym it's
a way of associating someone with an
evil regime that doesn't exist
anymore but in point of fact naziism
whatever it was is inseparable from the
German Nation it was a nationalist
movement in Germany there were no other
Nazis right there's no book of Nazism
like I want to be a Nazi what is it what
does it mean to be a Nazi there's no
there's no mine there's no minec is not
do capitel right minec is like to the
extent I understand it it's like he's
pissed about the Treaty ofite whatever
I'm very anti-nazi I'm merely saying
there isn't a Nazi movement in 20124
it's a way of calling people
evil okay Putin doesn't
like nationalist ukrainians Putin hates
nationalism in general which is
interesting and of course he does he's
got 80 whatever
republics and he's afraid of nationalist
movements he fought a war in chchchchia
over this so I understand it but I have
a different I'm for National for
American nationalism so like I disagree
with Putin on that but calling them
Nazis it's like I thought it was
childish well I I do believe that he
believes it so that's so I agree with
that I was because I was listening to
this because in the United States
everyone's always calling everyone else
a Nazi you're a Nazi
okay but I was listening to this I was
like this is the dumbest sort of not
convincing line you could take and I sat
there and listen to him talk about Nazis
for like eight minutes and I'm like I
think he believes this yeah and I
actually you know having had a bunch of
conversations with people who are living
in Russia they they also believe it now
there's technicalities here which the
word Nazi the World War II is deeply in
the blood of a lot of Russians and
ukrainians I get it I get so you're
using it as almost a political term the
way it's used in the United States also
like racism and all the this kind of
stuff uh you know you can really touch
people if you use the N I think that's
totally right but it's also to me a
really like disgusting thing to do I
agree because uh and also to clarify
there is Neo-Nazi movements in Ukraine
just very small uh you're saying that
there's this distinction between Nazi
and Neo-Nazi sure but it's a small
percentage of the population a tiny
percentage they have no power in
government as far I have seen no data to
show they have any influence on zilinski
and zilinski government at all so really
when uh Putin says densification I think
he means nationalist movements I think I
think you're right and I agree with
everything you said and I do think that
the war the second world war occupies a
place in Slavic Society polar Society
you know central eastern Europe that it
does not occupy in the United States and
you can just look at the the death
totals you know tens of millions versus
less than half a million so it's like
this eliminated a lot of the male
population of these countries so of
course it's it's still resonant in those
countries I get it I just I think I've
watched I don't think I know I've
watched the misuse of words
weaponization of words for political
reasons for so long that I just I just
don't like and though I do engage in it
sometime I'm sorry I don't like just
dismissing people in a word oh he's a
Nazi he's a liberal or whatever it's
like tell me what you mean what don't
you like about what they're doing or
saying and and Nazi especially it's like
I don't even know what the hell you're
talking about what troubled me about
that is because he said that that's the
primary objective currently for the war
and that because
it's uh not grounded in reality it makes
it difficult to then negotiate peace
because like what uh what does it mean
to get rid of the Nazis in Ukraine so
like he'll come to the table and say
well okay I will agree to do ceasefire
once the Nazis are gone okay so can you
list the Nazis agree plus can you
negotiate with a Nazi right exactly no I
totally agree with you it was very
strange but maybe it was perhaps had to
do with speaking to his own population
and also probably trying to avoid the
use of the word
NATO as the justification for the war
yes that's all of course I I don't know
but I suspect you're right on both
counts but I would say it points to
something that I've thought more and
more since I did that interview which
was like two weeks ago I
guess it w I didn't think he was like as
a PR guy not very good like not good at
telling his own story you know the story
of the current war in Ukraine is the
Eastward expansion of NATO and scaring
the shit out of the Russians with NATO
expansion which is totally necessary
doesn't help the United States NATO
itself doesn't help the United States
States and so I'm not pro Russian for
saying that I'm pro-american for saying
that and I think that's a really
compelling story because it's
true he did not tell that story he told
some other story that I didn't fully
understand again I'm not Russian he's
speaking to multiple audiences around
the world I'm not sure what he h to
achieve by that interview I will never
know but I did think that like this guy
is not good at telling his story and I
also think honestly on the basis of a
lot I mean I know this very isolated
during covid
very um we keep hearing that he's dying
of this or that disease he's got ALS I
mean I don't know I'm not his doctor
there's a ton of lying about it I know
that but one thing that's not a lie is
that he was cloistered away during covid
I know this and only dealing with two or
three people and that makes you weird
it's so important to deal with a lot of
people to have your views challenged you
see this with leaders who stay in power
too long he's been in power 24 years
effectively he's done a you know there's
been upsides I think for Russia the
Russian economy Russ Russian life
expectancy but there are definitely
downsides and one of them is you get
weird and you get
autocratic you know like this is why we
have term very few Kings don't get crazy
in old
age um yeah and you said some of this
also in your well in your post Kremlin
discussion while you're in Moscow still
which was very impressive to me that you
can just openly criticize this is great
well I don't care I understand this I
just wish you did some more of that also
with the supermarket video and perhaps
some more of that with Putin in front of
you but I in front of me I'm such a good
person I I know you see it as virtue
signaling yeah it is have you seen some
of the the interview he did with some
NBC News child yes I understand so I
think you're just so annoyed by how bad
journalists are that just didn't want to
be them yeah that's probably right
actually
some some great conversations will
involve some challenging like you were
confused about densification well first
of all I accept your criticism and I
accept it as true that in some way I'm
probably pivoting against what I
dislike and I have such contempt for
American journalists on the basis of so
much knowledge that I probably was like
I don't want to be like that fair that
is a kind of defensiveness and dumb so
you're right uh as for the Nazi thing I
was like I really felt like we were just
speaking so far past each other that we
would never like come to like I don't
even know what the hell you're talking
about and I that and especially when I
decided or concluded that he really
meant it I was like that's just too
freaking weird to me it's it's almost
like yeah I can think of many other
examples where you're interviewing
someone they'll say something that's
like I was interviewing a guy one time
and he started talking about the black
Israelites and we're the real Jews and I
was like you know and it wasn't on
camera but I was like I don't that was
so it was so far out to me that I was
like We'll Never kind of
understand uh common terms on that so
you mentioned there's a bunch of
conspiracy theories about uh Putin's
Health how was he in person like what
did he feel like did he look
healthy you know I'm not a health person
self so I mean I can easily gain 30 lbs
and not know it so like I'm probably not
a great person to ask but no he seemed
fine he seemed um he had his arm hooked
through a chair and I heard people say
well he's got Parkinson's and um
Parkinson's can be controlled I know uh
for periods with
drugs so it's it's hard to assess I'm
just not uh one of the Tells of Parkin
is his gate you know how a person walks
I think and his walking seemed fine I
walked around with him and talk to him
off camera um his he's had some work
done for sure he's 71 or like visual
purposes yeah I'm 54 he's like almost 20
years old than me he looked younger than
me uh what was that like the
conversation off camera like you walking
around with him what was the what was
the content of the conversation I mean I
can't you know I feel bad even with
Putin or anybody like talking about
stuff that is off the Record
but I'll just say that um
when I said that he didn't want to fight
with NATO or with the US state
department or with Joe Biden because he
wants a
settlement that's a very
informed P you know perspective um he
doesn't you know say whatever you want
about that believe it or not but um that
is true so uh so he's open for
peace for peace
negotiations Russia tried to join nato
in 2000 that's a that's a fact okay they
tried to join NATO so just think about
this NATO exists to keep Russia
contained MH it exists as a Bull workk
against Russian territorial
expansion and whether or not Russia it
has any territorial Ambitions is another
question like why would it it's the
largest land mass in the world whatever
but that's why it exists so if Russia
seeks to join NATO it is by definition
sign that NATO's job is done here we can
declare Victory and go
home the fact that they turned him down
is like so shocking to me but it's true
then he approaches the next President
George W bush that was with Bill Clinton
at the end of his term in 2000 he
approaches the next president and said
let's in our next missile deal let's
align on this and we'll designate Iran
as our common enemy Iran which is now
you know effectively in League with
Russia thanks to our in insane policies
but
um and and George W bush to his credit
like well that seems like kind of an
Innovative good idea and Ki rice who's
like one of the stupidest people ever to
hold power in the United States if I can
say who's like monom maniacally
anti-russia vers because she had an
advisor at Stanford who was or something
during the Cold War no we can't do that
and Bush is just weak and so he agreed
it's like what that is
crazy if you're fighting with someone
and the person says you know what
actually our interest a line
and you've spent 80% of your mental disc
space on hating me and opposing me or
whatever but actually we can be on the
same
team if you don't at least see that as
progress like what why would you if if
your interest is in helping your country
what would be the what's the
counterargument I don't even understand
it and no one has even addressed any of
this the war of Russian aggression yeah
it was a war of Russian aggression for
sure but how did how did we get there we
got there because Joe Biden and Tony
blinkin dispatched KLA Harris who does
not freelance this stuff okay fair to
say to the Munich security conference
two years ago this month February
2022 and said in a press conference to
zinsky poor zalinski we want you to join
NATO this was not in a back room thing
this was in public at a press conference
knowing because he said it like 4,000
times we don't want nuclear weapons
happens from the United States or NATO
on our western
border duh and days later he invaded so
like what is that and if you even I
raised that question and my previous job
and I was denounced as you of course a
traiter or something but okay great I'm
a Traer what's the answer what's the
answer these are not in you know Toran
nulan who I know not dumb hasn't helped
the US in any way an architect of the
Iraq War architect of This Disaster one
of the people who destroyed the US
dollar okay fine but you're not stupid
so like you're trying to get a war by
acting that way what's the other
explanation by the way NATO didn't want
Ukraine because it didn't meet the
criteria so for admission so why would
you say that because you want a war
that's why and that war has enriched a
lot of people to the tune of billions so
I don't care if I sound like some kind
of left-wing conspiracy nut because I'm
neither leftwing nor a conspiracy nut
tell me how I'm wrong who do you think
is behind it if you to analyze like zoom
out looking at the entirety of human
history the military-industrial complex
he said KLA Harris is it individuals is
it like this Collective flock that
people are just proar as a collective
it's the hive mind it's and and I you
know spent my whole life in DC from 85
to 2020 so 35 years and again I grew up
around it in that world and I do think
that
conspiracies of course there are
conspiracies but in general the hive
mind is responsible for the worst
decisions it's a bunch of people with
the same
views totally you know views that have
not been updated in
decades um Putin said
something that I thought was TR
absolutely true I don't know how he
would know this but it is true because I
lived among them so the Soviet Union
dissolves in August of
91 on my honeymoon in Bermuda I'll never
forget it and it was a big thing you
know if you lived in DC I mean the
receptionist in my office in 1991 was
getting a masters in Russian from
Georgetown he was going to be a Soviet
tolist and he was among you know
thousands of people in Washington on
that same track and so the Soviet Union
collapses well so does the rationale for
like you know a good portion of the US
government has
been dedicated for over 40 years to
opposing this thing that no longer
exists so there's a lot of forward
momentum there's a huge amount of money
the bulk of the money in the richest
country in the world aimed in this
direction it's very hard for people to
to readjust to reassess it's and you see
this in life all the time you know I I
you know I love my wife all of a sudden
she ran off with my best friend holy
shit I didn't expect that this morning
now it's a reality like how do I deal
with that well you know I I got stage
four cancer diagnosis okay and it's it's
all bad but I'm just just saying like
that's the nature of life things you did
not anticipate never thought you'd have
to face happen out of nowhere and you
have to adjust your expectations and
your goals and people have a hard time
with that very hard time with that so
that's a lot of it you know people if
you're Ki
rice sort of like highly ambitious
midwit who gets this degree from
Stanford and you read toll story in the
original sure you did and uh and you
spent your whole life like thinking that
russan is the center of evil in the
world um it's kind of hard to be like
well actually there's a new threat and
it's coming from farther east it's
primarily an economic
threat and maybe all the threats aren't
reduced to tank battles that's the other
thing is these people are so inelastic
in their thinking so lacking imagination
and
flexibility that they can't sort of
Imagine like a new framework and the new
framework is not that you're going to go
to war with China over Formosa
Taiwan no the the framework is that all
of a sudden all the infrastructure in
Tiana is going to be built by China and
like that's a different kind of threat
but they can't kind of get there because
they're not that impressive so you
actually you mentioned this it's not
just the Cold War it's World War II that
populates most of uh their thinking in
Washington you mentioned Churchill
Chamberlain and uh Hitler and they kind
of seeing the World War II as the kind
of the good War and the successful role
the United States played in that war
they're kind of
seeing um that
Dynamic that geopolitical Dynamic and
applying it everywhere else
still yeah it's a template for
everything and I think it's of huge
significance to the development of the
West to the civilization we live in now
to world history was a World War and so
I think it's worth knowing a lot about
and being honest about and all the rest
but it's hardly the sum total of human
history it's a it's a snapshot and and
so you keep hearing people refer to not
even the war no one ever talks about the
war like what H how much does Tony
blinkin know about the Battle of
Stalingrad probably zero um doesn't know
anything largest battle in human history
but bet he knows nothing but he knows a
lot about the cliches surrounding the 38
to 40 period period 1938 to 1940 and
everything is kind of expressed through
that that that formula and and not
everything is that formula that's all
I'm saying and the Republicans have a
strange weakness for it particularly the
closeted ones the weird the weird ones
who were like have no life other than
like starting more
Wars everything to them the most
vulnerable I would say among them um
emotionally psychologically vulnerable
the dumbest they will always say the
same thing and it appeals to Republican
voters unfortunately that every problem
is the result of weakness everyone's
Chamberlain like Germany never would
have gone into Poland Czechoslovakia if
england had been stronger that's the
argument is that true I don't I don't
know actually maybe it might be totally
true it might not be true at all I
really don't
know but not everything is that that's
not always true if I go up to you in a
bar and I say I hate your necktie
I'm being pretty aggressive with you
pretty strong you might beat the shit
out of me actually or shoot me if I do
that like an aggressive posture doesn't
always get you the outcome that you want
sometimes it requires a more
sophisticated Mediterranean posture I
mean it kind of depends it's a time and
place
thing and uh they don't acknowledge that
it's like everything is this same
template and I just that's not a the
road to good decision-making at all
since we're on the time period let me
ask you a kind of almost cliche question
but it applies to you which you've
interviewed a lot of world leaders y if
you had the chance to interview Hitler
in 39 40
41 first of all would you do it and how
would you do it I assume you would do it
given who you are man it would be a
massive cost for doing it it may destroy
my life to interview Putin though I can
tell you as as much as I want that I'm
not a Putin Defender I only care about
the United States that's 100% true
anyone who knows me will tell you what's
true I keep saying it but history May
record me to the extent it records me at
all as a tool of Putin a hater of
America you know um that seems absurd to
me but absurd things happen What would I
ask Hitler I don't even know I I I guess
that I probably ask him what I asked
Putin which is what I ask everybody like
what's your motive why did you do I mean
if he'd already gone into poing like why
are you doing that you know what's your
goal and then you know the question is
you he can answer honestly I don't know
you know it's you can't you can't make
someone answer a question honestly you
can
only sort of shut up while they talk and
then let people decide what they think
of the answer well just like in the bar
fight there's different ways you can
there are different ways that's exactly
right that's exactly man is that true
that is absolutely right I mean your
energy with with Putin for example was
such that it felt like he could trust
you I felt like he could tell you a lot
I just wanted I just wanted to get it on
the record that's all I wanted you know
I I think it was extremely like we have
to acknowledge how important that
interview was for the record and for
opening the door for conversation like
opening the door to conversation
literally is the path to like more
conversations and peace peace talks well
I would flip it around and say anyone
who seeks to shut that
down by focusing on a supermarket video
of 4 minutes versus a 2 hour and 15
minute long interview with a world
leader anyone who doesn't want more
conversation who wants fewer facts fewer
perspectives is totalitarian probably
doesn't have good intent I mean I I I I
can honestly say for all my many
manifold
faults I've never tried to like make
people shut up you know I just it's not
in me I don't believe in that so Putin's
folks uh have shown interest for quite a
while to speaking with me so you've
spoken with him what advice would you
give oh do it do it immediately how's
your Russian by the way have you kept up
with it yeah fluent so he would most
likely be in Russian oh uh so like
that's the other thing is I do have a
question about language bear like did
you feel was an annoying it's horrible
yeah it's horrible I mean the I don't
have much of a technique as an
interviewer other than listen really
carefully that's that's my only skill I
don't have the best questions I
certainly don't have the best
questions all I do that I'm proud of and
I think works is I just listen super
carefully I never let a word go by that
I'm not paying it exhausts me actually
but um you can't do that in a foreign
language because there's a delay here
I'm just whining but it's it's real it's
not it's not not whining like can you
actually describe the technical details
of that are you hearing concurrently
like at the same time yes but there's a
massive lag so what's happening is so
the translators so we were of course
extremely uptight about the logistical
details so we brought our own cameraman
who I've been around the world with who
worked at Fox came with me now amazing
and he did I mean it was it was our
cameras lighting everything like we had
full control over that and we had
control of the tape the Russians also
had their own cameras and I don't know
what they did with it but we had full
control of that and we brought our own
translator we got our own translator
because I just
I don't trust anyone right so uh so I
think we had a good translator we had
two of them actually and but the pro
because they get exhausted but the
problem is from my perspective as
someone who's like trying to think of a
followup and listen to the answer Putin
will talk and you can in part of your
ear hear you know the Slavic
sounds and then then over that is a guy
with a Slavic accent speaking English
and then you can hear Putin stop talking
and then this guy's answer goes on for
another 15 20 seconds so it's super
disconcerting and it's really hard and
the other thing is it doesn't matter how
good your translators are I'm I'm
interested in language I speak only
English fluently and but I'm really
interested in language and I
know and I work in
language you it doesn't matter how good
your translator is in literature and in
conversation you miss so much if the
language is moving for you I mean you
see this in in Bible study you see it in
in DVI you see it everywhere if you
don't speak you know Aramaic Hebrew
Russian you're not really getting I mean
even in Romance
languages like I you know I like
ballzack okay I like who's obviously
wrote in French you read pero which
amazing novel hilarious and it's like
you're not really getting it and it's
not that you know French and English are
not that far apart Russian like what
conversation so the chemistry of
conversation the humor the wit the the
play with words all this exactly and my
understanding of Russian as a lover of
Russian literature in English is that
it's it's not a simple language at all
the grammar's
complex there's a lot that's expressed
that will be lost in the translation so
yes I mean you the fact that you speak
native Russian I mean I would run not
walk to that interview cuz I think it
would just be amazing you would get so
much more out of it than I did and we
should say that you've met a lot of
world leaders both zilinski and Putin
are intelligent witty even funny yes so
like there's a depth to the person that
can be explored through a a conversation
just on that element the Putin speaks
decent English I spoke to him in English
so I know that um but he's not
comfortable with it at all but liny is I
think no he is well he's better than
Putin at English but he's still the
humor the the like the intelligence all
of that is not quite there in English he
says simple points but the guy's a
comedian and he's a comedian primarily
in Russian the Russian language so the
the Ukrainian language is now used
mostly uh primarily as a kind of symbol
I'm aware that decision no I know um and
he is you know his really his native
language is Russian language of course
has a lot of people but you you can also
understand his position that he might
not want to speaking Russian publicly
that's something I've I don't think
they're allowed to speak in Russia in
some places in Ukraine right that's
that's one of the reasons that Russia
was so mad is that they were attacking
language and that's a fair complaint
like what and by the way if you haven't
been to Moscow in a while you should see
it and you will pick up a million things
that were invisible to me and you should
assess it for yourself and my strong
advice would be even if you don't
interview Putin go over there spend a
week there and assess
what you think I mean how restricted
does a society feel I mean it would take
a lot of balls to do this because you'll
I mean whatever you decide you will be
sucked into conversations that have
nothing to do with you political
conversations you're obviously not a
political activist right you're an
interviewer but I think it would be so
interesting but for interview itself is
there advice you have about how to carry
interview it is fundamentally different
when you do it in the native language
but yes I mean I think um
you know I approached the and maybe I
did it incorrectly but this was the
product of a lot of thought I was coming
into that interview aware that he hadn't
given an interview at all with anybody
since the war started MH so I had a
million different questions and as noted
I didn't ask them because I just wanted
to focus on the
war but um I mean there's so many I'll
send you my notes that I wrote I was
like a diligent little girl that would
be amazing but I think my intervie all
these questions and some of them I
thought were were pretty funny in your
in your case I think uh the very fact of
the interview was the most important
thing yeah that's probably right I did
have the the the question that I really
wanted to ask that I was almost going to
ask because it made me laugh out loud I
was sitting having drinking coffee
beforehand with my producers and I was
like I'm going to go in there my first
question is going to be uh Mr President
I've been here in the Kremlin for two
days preparing and I haven't seen a
single African-American in a position of
power in the Kremlin sure
thought I thought that's too culturally
specific and dry and he'd be like this
guy's freaking crazy yeah yeah you don't
want to open with a crazy with a hum
with humor I know all right probably
doesn't translate it doesn't oh yeah and
there will be a small delay where you
have to wait for the J what to see if it
lands or not this is not
America at Fox you were for a Time the
most popular host uh after Fox you've
garnered a huge amount of attention as
well same same probably more do you
worry that popularity and just that
attention gets to your head is a kind of
drug that clouds your thinking you think
I live in a spiritual graveyard of
people killed by the Quest for fame yes
I have lived in it uh I mean I would say
the one advantage the two advantages I
have and one I've I have a happy family
and a stable family and a stable group
of
friends um which is just the greatest
blessing and
and um and a and a strong love of Nature
and that my family shares so you know
I'm in nature every day and you I have a
whole series of rituals designed to keep
me from becoming the asshole that I
could easily become
and uh but no of course I mean that's
what I dis you know that's I and I don't
want to beat up on I'm grateful to
Elon who you know gave me a platform and
and I mean that sincerely but I
definitely don't spend a lot of time on
social media or on the Internet for that
exact
reason um well first of all I think it's
as I've said a much more controlled
environment than we acknowledge and I
don't want lies in my head but I also
don't want to become the sort of person
who's seeking the agulation of strangers
I think that's Soul Poison and I said
earlier that I think that the the desire
for power and money will kill you and I
believe that and I've seen it a lot but
I also think the desire for the love of
people you don't know is every bit as
poisonous maybe more so and so yes and
it's not just because I've you know
obviously spent most of my life in
public uh and in fact I don't spend my
life in public I'm completely private
person but um but professionally I've
spent my life in public it's not just
that it's like social media makes
everybody into a cable news host and we
were talking off the air my my new I
just I'm obsessed with this I don't know
enough about it but here's what I do
know so Korea amazing country great
people I grew up around Koreans probably
no group if I can generalize about a
group that I like more than Koreans are
just
smart funny honest Brave they're just I
really like Koreans I always have my
whole life growing up something
California with
Koreans South Korea is like dying it's
literally dying it's way below
replacement rate in fertility it's
suicide rate is
astronomical um why is that it's a rich
country of course I don't know the
answer but I suspect it has something to
do with the penetration of
Technology into South Korean Society is
the I think one of the highest certainly
one of the highest in the world people
live online there and there was a belief
in for a bunch of reasons in South Korea
that Western technology would be a
liberating Progressive force and I think
it's been the opposite that's my sense
strong sense and I think it's true in
this country too and I don't understand
how people can ignore the decline in
life expectancy or the rise in INF fenal
use like it's not just about China
shipping precursor chemicals to Mexico
it's like why would you take that shit I
hope those two things aren't coupled
technological advancement and the the
erosion well let me ask you and I know
you're a technologist and there's a and
I respect it and there's a lot about
technology that I like and it benefited
from I had back surgery and it worked
okay so I'm not against all technology
but can you name a technology a big
technology in the last 20 years that we
can say conclusively has improved people
lives well conclusive is a tough thing
pretty conclusively I I think that we
can brag about I think well you've
criticized Google search recently but I
think making the World Knowledge
accessible to anyone anywhere across the
world through Google search well I love
that I love that idea are people better
informed are they more superstitious and
misled than they were 20 years ago I not
close I well no I don't know I think
they are more informed it's just
revealing the ignorance
the the internet has revealed the
ignorance that people have but I think
the ignorance has been decreasing
gradually and like if if you look even
you can criticize places like Wikipedia
a lot and many very many aspects of
Wikipedia are very biased but when you
most of it are actually topics that
don't have any bias in them because
they're not political or so there's no
battle over those topics and most of
Wikipedia I think that's true is like
the fastest way to learn about a thing I
couldn't agree more you can very quickly
imagine your an expert and that may be
the problem I think um no it's it's I
just experienced it in Moscow it's like
again I feel like I'm in the top 1% for
information certainly intake because
it's my job and I had literally and plus
and I'm always out of the country I've
been to I've been around the world many
times like I feel like I know a lot
about the rest of the world or I thought
I did and how did I not know any of that
and maybe I'm just like unusually
ignorant or something or reading the
wrong things I don't know what it was
but all I know
is the digital information sources that
I use to understand just something as
simple as what's the city of Moscow like
were completely inadequate and anyway
look the I just am worried that we're
missing the obvious signs and the
obvious signs are
reproduction life
expectancy
sobriety if you have a Society where
people just can't deal with being sober
don't want to have children and are
dying younger you have an extremely sick
you have a suicidal Society okay and I'm
not even blaming anyone for I'm just
saying objectively that is true and the
measure of a health of your Society is
the number of children that you have and
how well they do it's super simple
that's the Next Generation we all die
and what replaces us and if you if you
don't care then you're
suicidal and maybe other things too but
that's all I'm saying so what happened
to South Korea like why can't anyone
answer the question they're great people
they're rich they have all these
advantages they're on The Cutting Edge
of every American for a foreign country
they're more American than maybe any
other country other than Canada and like
what happened and I mean your
fundamental worries the same kind of
thing might be happening or will happen
in the United States well let me just
ask you this I think North Korea seems
like the most dystopian horrible place
in the world right obviously it's a
byword for dystopia right North Korean I
use it all the time and I mean it if in
a hundred years there are more North
Koreans still alive than there are South
Koreans what does that tell us yeah
that's something to worry about but also
but like how did it how did it happen
like why I'm interested in the why
there's a question I asked Putin you
know sometimes we don't know why but why
does no one ask why I've seen a lot of
increased distrust in science which is
deserved in many places it just worries
me because some of the greatest
inventions of humanity come from science
and technological innovation okay then
let me ask you a couple questions and
perhaps you have the answer and I've
always assumed that was true and I
should say that when I was a kid I lived
in la hoo California next to the Suk
Institute named after Jon Suk a resident
of La Hoya California who created the
polio vaccine and saved Untold millions
and so my my belief which is still my
belief actually that's a great thing
it's one of the great additions to human
flourishing
ever
but if technology is so great why is
life expectancy going down and why are
fewer people having kids and why would
anybody who has internet access ever use
fentanyl like what is that what is going
on and until we can answer that question
I think we have to cons assume the
question of whether technology is a net
good or that bad is UN is unresolved
like at best right at best perhaps but
technolog is the very tool which which
will allow us to have that kind of
discourse to figure out to do signs
better I mean I want that to be true and
when you said that the internet allows
people to escape the darkness of
ignorance man that resonated with me
because I felt that way in 19934 when it
was first starting and I first got on it
and I thought man this is amazing you
can talk for free to anyone around the
world this is going to be great but let
me just ask you this this is something
I've never gotten over or gotten a
straight answer to why is it that in any
European city the greatest buildings
indisputably were built before
electricity and the Machine Age why has
no one ever built a medieval cathedral
in the modern era
ever well what is that uh indisputably
you're have a presumption we have a good
definition of what beauty is there's a
lot of people right let's be specific
pick a European city or any city in the
world and tell me that there's a
prettier building than say notron before
it was set fire to there's other sources
of prettiness and Beauty purely in
architecture of of course trees are
prettier than any building in my opinion
so I agree with you well that but also
there could be I me I I I grew up in the
pre-internet age but if good but if you
grew up in the internet age I I think
you're eyes would be more open to Beauty
that's digital that is in a digital
world I'm not discounting the
possibility of digital Beauty at all and
you know the Ted kazinski and Me wants
to but I that's too close-minded I agree
I'm completely willing to believe there
is such a thing as digital Beauty I I
mean I have digital pictures of my phone
of my dogs and kids so I know that there
is but purely in the realm of
architecture because it's like limited
and and it
is you know one of the pure expressions
of human creativity we need places to
live and work and worship and eat and so
we build buildings and every
civilization has
but the Machine Age the Industrial Age
seemed to
have decreased the quality and the
beauty in our in that one expression of
human creativity architecture and why is
that well I could also argue that you
know I'm a big sucker for Bridges and
yeah modern Bridges can give older
Bridges a run for their money but I like
bridges too so I agree with you sort of
but like the Brooklyn Bridge I I don't
know that there's any modern Bridges you
know that was built in late 19th century
yeah um very much in the Industrial Age
but I'm just saying like the great
cathedrals of Europe yeah even the
pyramids um whoever built them uh it
doesn't it seems like if you I it's just
it's like super obvious I'm just like
I'm dealing on the autism level here
just like why is that but that's a good
way to start if all of a sudden you have
electricity and hydraulics and you have
access I mean I have machine in my wood
shop at home that are so much more
advanced than anything that any
Cathedral builder in 15th century Europe
had and yet there's neither I nor anyone
I know could even begin to understand
how a flying buttress was built right
and so what is that and the other
question is also consider that whatever
is creating this technology is
Unstoppable well there's that and the
question is like how do you steer it
then you have to look a realist way at
the world uhuh and say that if you don't
somebody else will and you
want to do it in a safe way I mean this
is the Manhattan Project was the
Manhattan Project a good idea to create
nuclear weapons that that's an easy call
no for me it's an easy call in
retrospect in retrospect yes because it
seems like it stopped world wars so the
mutually assur destruction seems to have
ended Wars ended major military it's
been what 80 years not even 80 years
79 and so we haven't had a World War in
79 years but one nuclear exchange would
of course kill more people than all wars
in human history combined so you saying
79 makes it sound like you're counting I
am counting because I think it obviously
it's like completely demonic and
everyone pretends like it's great you
nuclear weapons are evil yeah no ABS the
use of them is evil and the technology
itself is evil and in my I mean it's
like if you can't that's just so obvious
and that's what I'm saying is like I'm
not against all technology I took a
shower this morning mhm it was powered
by an electric pump y heated by a water
heater like I loved it I sat in an
electric sauna you know like I'm not
against all technology
obviously but the Mindless worship of
Technology sure mindless worship of
anything is pretty bad but I'm just
saying so you said let's approach this
from a realist perspective okay let's if
we think that there is a reasonable or
even a potential chance it could happen
maybe on the margins let's assign it a
15% chance that AI for example gets away
from us and we are now ruled by machines
that may actually hate us who knows what
they
want why wouldn't we use Force to stop
that from happening so you're walking
down the street in Midtown Manhattan
it's midnight you've had a few drinks
you're coming from dinner you're walking
back to your apartment a guy a very
thuggish looking guy young man mhm
approaches you he's 50 ft away MH he
pulls out a handgun he lifts it up to
you you also are armed do you shoot him
or do you wait to get
shot cuz all the data look he hasn't
shot you he's not committed a crime
other than carrying a weapon in New York
City maybe he's got a license You Don't
Know M could be
legal but he's pointing a gun at you is
it fair to kill him before he kills you
even though you can't prove that he will
kill you
if I knew my uh my skills with a gun
because he already has but it turns out
that you you know you have some
confidence in your ability to stop the
threat by force are you justified in
doing that I just like this picture am I
wearing a cowboy hat no no but you are
wearing cowboy boots and they're
clicking on the Cobblestone actually the
meat packing okay great I like this
picture I'm just I I think about the
salot x no uh yeah I understand your
point but also the I think a metaphor
falls apart if
uh there's um if there's other nations
at play here so if the same is with the
nuclear bomb if us doesn't build it will
other nations build it the Soviet Union
build it China or Nazi Germany we faced
this I mean we faced this and the last
President to try and keep in a
meaningful way nuclear proliferation
under control was John F Kennedy and
look what happened to him but um but
what what's your suggestion like is
it well their position in 1962 was no
it's absolutely not
inevitable and or perhaps it's
inevitable in the sense that our death
is inevitable but you know as human
beings but we fight against the dying of
the light anyway because that's the
right thing to do no we were willing to
use Force to prevent other countries
from getting the bomb because we thought
that would be really terrible cuz we
acknowledged that while there were
upsides to nuclear weapons just like
there upsides AI the downside was
terrifying in the hands of I mean that's
the thing that I kind of don't get it's
like the applications of that technology
in the hands of people who mean to do
harm and
Destroy it's like so obviously
terrifying it's not so obvious to me
what I'm terrified about is probably
similar thing that you're terrified
about is using that technology to
manipulate people's minds that's much
more reasonable to me as an
expectation a real threat that's
possible in the next few years but what
matters more than that well I think that
could lead to like destruction of human
civilization through other humans for
example starting nuclear Wars yeah well
I mean this is one of the reasons I
wasn't afraid in the Vladimir Putin
interview because it's like it's all
ending anyway you know what I mean yeah
well might as well dance on the deck of
the Titanic don't be a pussy enjoy it I
think uh we will
forever fight against the dying of the
light as the entirety of the Civ someone
the other day said that Biden describe
that to Churchill that was a Churchill
quote that's kind of what I'm saying
it's like if you live in a society where
people don't read
anymore like people are by definition
much more ignorant and you like but they
don't know it it's like I do think the
Wikipedia culture and I think there are
cool things about Wikipedia certainly
it's ease of uses like hi and that's
great but people get this sense that
like oh I know a lot about you know this
or that or the other thing and it's like
the key to wisdom again the key to wise
decision-making is knowing what you
don't know and it's just so important to
be reminded of what a dummy you are and
how ignorant you are all the time yeah
that's why I like having daughters it's
like it's never far from mind how flawed
I am and that's important yeah I in the
same way hope to be a dad one day you
should have a ton of Ks are you going to
have a ton of pups five oh pup well you
mean like kids yes five but also I've
been thinking of getting a dog but uh
unrelated I would love have like five or
six kids yeah for sure what have you
found a victim
yet you make it sound so
romantic just joking I love it no you
should totally do that yeah 100% but
also in terms of being humble you know I
do Jiu-Jitsu it's a martial art where
you get your ass kicked all the time
love that it's nice to get your ass
physical humbling is unlike anything
else I think uh cuz we're kind of
monkeys at heart and just getting your
ass kicked just really helpful age I've
had it happened to me twice and twice is
enough it got me to quit drinking you
know I was good at starting fights not
good at winning them but um no I
completely agree with that let me ask
you've been pretty close with Donald
Trump your private texts about him
around the 2020 election were made
public in one of them you said you
passionately hate
Trump when that came out you said that
you actually know you love him so how do
you explain the difference you know my
texts reflect a lot of things including
how I feel at the moment that I sent
them that specific text I happen to know
since I had to go through it
forensically during my deposition in a
case I was not named in I had nothing to
do with
whatsoever um it's crazy how civil suits
can like be used to hurt people you
disagree with politically but um I was
mad at a very specific person I mean
really what what that I mean you're
asking me I'll tell you exactly what
that was it was the second the election
ended and they stopped voting stopped
the vote counting on Election night I
was like well this is and it's all now
mailing ballots electronic voting
machines I was like that's a rigged
election I thought that then I think it
now well now it's obvious that it was
but at the time I was like I feel like
there's that was like crazy what just
happened I want but I don't want to go
on TV and say that's a rigged election
because I don't have any evidence it's a
rigged election you can't do that it's
irresponsible it's
wrong so I was like I want the Trump
campaign was making all these claims
about you know this or that fraud so I
was trying my best to to substantiate
them to follow up on it everyone else's
like shut up Trump you lost go away
we're going to indict you um but I felt
like my job was to be like no the guy's
he's president he's claiming the
election just got stolen and he's making
these claims let's see if we
can the people around him were like so
incompetent it was just absolutely crazy
and I so i' called a couple of time I
finally give up but I'd call and be like
all right you guys claim that these
inconsistencies and this you know
whatever this happened give me evidence
and I'll put it on TV you know it's my
job to bring stuff that is not going to
be aired anywhere else to the
public I couldn't I it was like it was
insane how incompetent and unserious
they weren't able to provide like well
here's the here's the point of the story
and of that text so then they come out
they say well dead people voted well
that's just an easy call okay if a dead
person voted we can prove someone's dead
cuz like being dead is one of the few
things were good at like verifying cuz
you start to smell okay and there's a
record of it it's called a death
certificate so I was like give me the
names people who are dead who voted then
we can get their registration and we can
show they voted five names so I go on TV
and I
say this you know Caroline Johnson 79 of
Wan Illinois voted here's her death she
died and the campaign sends me this
stuff now I in general don't take stuff
directly from campaigns cuz they all lie
cuz their job is to get elected or
whatever so I I'm very wary of campaigns
having been around it for 30 years so
like but I made an exception to my rule
and I got a bunch of stuff from them
well like of the six names two of them
are still
alive what I was so I immediately
corrected it the next night CNN did a
whole segment on how I was spreading
disinformation which I was by the way in
this one case they were right I was so
mad I was like I hate you I'm not
talking about you I'm so
mad anyway that's the answer that's what
that was who were you texting to my
producer and I was like venting it's
like a producer I was really close to
and I've known him for a long time he's
really smart and uh and he's like he was
someone I could like be honest with and
I was like and by the way it's so funny
I mean now I'm doing what was me which I
I will keep to a minimum but it's like
stealing someone's text like how and by
the way I was an idiot I should have
said come and arrest me I'm not giving
you my free text messages okay yeah but
I got bullied into it by a lawyer I
didn't get bullied into it I was weak
enough to agree with a lawyer was my
fault never should have done that fuck
you they're my texts they're totally I'm
not even named in this case that's what
I should have said but I didn't I said I
was mad on the air the next day but not
in language that
colorful but whatever whatever I try to
be I try to be transparent I mean I also
think by the way if you you watch
someone over
time you don't always know what they
really think but you can tell if
someone's lying you know you can sort of
feel it in
people and I have lied I'm sure I'll lie
again I don't want to lie you know I
don't think I'm a liar I try not to be a
liar I don't want to be a liar I think
it's like really important not to be a
liar you said nice things about me
earlier I'm starting a question have
questions have a lot of questions talk I
hate fre yeah I'm going to have to see
your texts after this uh my texts are so
uninteresting now it's like crazy how
uninteresting they are emojis and GI
yeah lots of dog pictures nice uh you
said some degree the election was
rigged was it St totally ridic it was
100% stolen are you joking was rigged to
that large of a yeah they they you
completely change the way people vote
right before the election on the basis
of Co which had nothing to do so in that
way it was rigged
and then then you censor the information
people are allowed to get anyone who
complains about Co which was like by the
way it might have hurt Trump but I mean
it's like whatever I mean you could play
it many different ways you can't have
censorship in a democracy by definition
here's how it works the people rule they
vote for representatives to carry their
agenda to the capital city and get it
enacted that's how they're in charge and
then every few years they get to
reassess the performance of those people
in an election in order to do that they
need a they need access unfettered
access to
information and no one particularly not
people who are already in power is
allowed to tell them what information
they can have they have to have all
information that they want whether the
people in charge want it or don't want
it or think it's true or think it's
false it doesn't
matter and the second you don't have
that you don't have a democracy it's not
a free election period and that's clear
in other countries I guess but it's not
clear here so but I would say it's this
election that I it took me a while to
come to this but it's this election
that's the referendum on Democracy Biden
is scile he's literally scile he can't
talk he can't walk the whole world knows
that leave our borders people are you
know everybody everybody in the world
knows
it he
can't he can't you can't a scile man is
not going to get elected in the most
powerful country in the world unless
there's fraud period like who would vote
for a scile man he's lit he literally
can't talk and nobody I've ever met
thinks he's running the US government
because he's not and so I think the
world is looking on at this coming
election and saying and a lot of the
world hates Trump okay it's not an
endorsement of trump but it's true if
Joe Biden gets
reelected democracy is a freaking joke
that's just true I think half the
country doesn't think he's seile just
thinks you that speaking they don't
think he's scile yeah I think he just
has um difficulty speaking it's like uh
they think gradual like gradual
degradation just getting old so
cognitive ability is a degrading what's
the difference between degraded
cognitive ability and cility well cility
has a threshold uh like a it's being be
on the threshold to where he could be a
functioning leader okay okay that may be
a term of art that I don't fully
understand and maybe there's like an IQ
threshold or something but I'm happy to
go with degraded cognitive
ability sure but that's an age thing but
he's the leader of the United States
with the world's second largest nuclear
Arsenal I'm with you I'm a sucker for
great speeches and for speaking
abilities as of leaders and Biden with
two Wars going on and potentially more
the importance of a leader to speak
eloquently
both privately in a room with other
leaders and publicly is really important
I agree with you that rhetorical ability
really matters convincing people of that
your program is Right telling them what
we're for national identity National
unity all Come From words I agree with
all of that but at this stage even
someone who grunted at the microphone
would be more reassuring than a guy who
clearly doesn't know where he is and it
and I think everyone knows that and like
I can't imagine there's an honest person
in Washington which is going to vote for
Biden by 90% obviously because they're
all dependent on the federal government
for their income but is there any person
who could say like out of 350 million
Americans like that's the most qualified
to lead or even in the top 80% like what
that's so embarrassing that that guy is
our president and with Wars going on
it's it's scary but it's it's
complicated to understand
why those are the choices we have I
agree well it's a failure of the system
clear clearly it's not working if you
got one one guy over 80 the the guyy
other guy almost at 80 like people that
he should not be running any so why you
have on the Democratic side you have uh
Dean Phillips you have uh RK Jr until
recently I guess he's independent and
then you have VC who are all younger
people yeah why did they not connect to
a degree to where it's such an
interesting I mean I think it's a really
interesting there oh there are a million
different answers and and of course I I
don't fully understand it um even though
I feel like I've watched it pretty
carefully but uh I would say the bottom
line is there's so much money vested in
the federal apparatus in the parties in
the government as I said a minute ago
our economies dominated by monopolies
but the greatest of all monopolies is
the federal
Monopoly which oversees and controls all
the other monopolies so it's like it's
really substantially about the money
it's not ideological it's about the
money and if someone controls the
Federal Government I mean at this point
it's the most powerful organization in
human history like it's kind of hard
to it's kind of hard to fight that in
the case of trump I I know the answer
there they raided Mar Lago they indicted
him on bullshit charges like and I felt
that in myself too even I was like come
on come on you know like whatever you
think of trump and I agreed with his
immigration views and I really like
Trump personally I think he's hilarious
and interesting which he is but it's
like okay there a lot of people in this
country let's let's get some you know
let's have a at very least like let's
have a real debate the second messed up
your cameras there sorry I'm getting
excited but um the second they raid Mara
Lago on a documents charge as someone
from DC I was like I know a lot about
classification and all that stuff and
been around it a lot that's so absurd
that I was like now it's not about Trump
it's about our system continuing like if
you can take out a presidential
candidate on a fake charge use the
justice system to take the guy out of
the race then we don't have a
representative democracy anymore and and
I think a lot of Republican voters felt
that way if they hadn't indicted him I'm
not sure he would be the nominee I
really don't think he would be so now a
vote for Trump is it kind of fuck you to
the system or in expression of your
desire to keep the system that we had
which is one where voters get to decide
prosecutors don't get to decide look
they told us for four years that Trump
was like a super criminal or something
I've actually been friends with some
super criminals I'm a little less judgy
than most so I didn't discount the
possibility that he had I don't know
he's in the real estate business in New
York in the 70s like did he kill someone
I don't know yeah you know no I'm I'm
not joking and I'm not for killing
people but like anything's possible it's
good day you took a stand on that yeah
no I'm not joking I was like well who
knows you know and I didn't know and
what they came up with was a documents
charge are you joking and then the
sitting president has the same documents
violation but he's fine it's like it's
just crazy this is happening in front of
all of us and then it becomes like at
that point it's not about Joe Biden it's
not about Donald Trump it's about
preserving a system which has worked not
perfectly but pretty freaking well for
250 years I know you don't like Trump I
get it let's not destroy that system
like we can handle another four years of
trump I think we can let all calm down
what we can't handle is a country whose
political system
is run by the justice department like
that is just you're freaking Ecuador at
that point no So speaking of the justice
department CIA and intelligence agencies
of that nature which you've been
traveling quite a bit probably tracked
by everybody which is uh the most
powerful intelligence agency do you
think
CIA uh mad MI6
svr I keep going the the Chinese um it
depends what you mean by
powerful which one bats above its weight
we know which one is Massad just to be
clear I guess is what you well of course
Tiny country very sophisticated Intel
service which one has the greatest
Global reach in comms which one is most
able to read your text I assume the NSA
but Chinese clearly pretty good um
Israel is pretty good um the French
actually are yeah surprisingly good for
kind of a declining country their Intel
services are pretty seem pretty
impressive no I love France but you know
what I mean and and all that so the but
the question I mean I grew up around all
that stuff that's all totally fine like
a strong country should have a a a
strong and capable Intel service so its
policy makers can make informed
decisions like that's what they're for
so as as Vladimir Putin himself noted
and I don't talk about it very much but
it's true I I applied to the ca when I
was in college cuz you know I was
familiar with it because of where I
lived and had grown up and everything
and I was like seemed interesting that's
honestly the only reason I was like live
in foreign countries see history happen
like I'm for that I applied to the
operations directorate they turned me
down on the basis of drug use actually
um true but anyway whatever I was
unsuited for it so I'm glad they turn me
down but the point is I didn't see CIA
as a threat partly because I was bathing
and propaganda about CIA and I didn't
really understand what it was and didn't
want to know but second because my
impression at the time was it was
outwardly focused it was focused on our
enemies I don't have a problem with that
as much the fact that CIA is playing in
domestic politics and actually has for a
long time was involved in the Kennedy
assassination that's not speculation
that's a
fact and I confirm that from someone had
read the documents that are still not
public um it's shocking like you can't
have that and I the reason I'm so mad is
I really believe in the idea of
representative government acknowledging
its imperfections but like I should have
some say I live here I'm a
citizen I pay your all your freaking
taxes so uh the fact that they would
be tampering with American democracy is
so outrageous to me and I don't know why
Morning Joe is not outraged this parade
of dummies highly credential dummies
they have on Morning Joe every day they
don't seem to that doesn't bother them
at all how could that not bother you why
is only Glenn Greenwald mad about it I
mean it's confirmed it's not like a
fever dream it's real they played in the
last election
domestically and I guess it shows how
dumb I am because they've been doing
that for many
years I mean the guy who took out mosc
lived on my street you one of the
Rosevelt CI officer so I mean again I
would grew up around this stuff but
um I never really thought I never
reached the obvious conclusion which is
that if the US government subverts
democracy in other countries in the name
of democracy it will over time subvert
democracy in my country why wouldn't it
that is the corruption is like core it's
at the root of it the purpose of the CIA
was envisioned at least publicly
envisioned as an Intel Gathering
apparatus for the executive so the
president could make wise forign policy
decisions what the hell is happening in
country X I don't know let me call the
agency in charge of finding
the point wasn't to freaking guarantee
the outcome of
Elections I'm doing an Israel Palestine
debate next week uh but I have to ask
you just your thoughts maybe even from a
US perspective what do you think about
Hamas attacks on Israel what was what
would be the right thing for Israel to
do and what's the right thing for us to
do in this if you looking at the
geopolitics of it I mean it's not a
topic that I get into a lot because I'm
a non-expert um and because I'm not
unlike every other American I'm not
emotionally invested in other countries
just in general I mean I admire them or
not and I love visiting them I love
Jerusalem probably my favorite city in
the world um but I don't have an
emotional attachment to it so uh maybe
I've got more clarity I don't know maybe
less here's my view I believe in
sovereignty as mentioned and I think
each country has to make decisions based
on its own interest but also with
reference to its own capabilities and
its own long-term interest and it's very
unwise for uh I'm not a huge fan of
treaties some are fine too many bad uh
but I think us Aid military aid to
Israel and the implied security
guarantees some explicit but many
implied security guarantees of the
United States to Israel probably haven't
helped Israel that much long term you
know it's a rich country with a highly
capable population
like every other country it's probably
best if it makes its decisions based on
what it can do by
itself
um so I would definitely be concerned if
I lived in Israel because I think fair
or unfair and really this is another
product of Technology social media
public sentiment in that area is boiling
over and I think it's going to be hard
for some of the governments in the
region Jordan Egypt turkey to contain
their own popul they don't want conflict
with Israel at all they were all pretty
Psy actually for the trend in progress
the Saudi peace deal which was never
signed but would have been great for
everybody because like trade peace
normal relations like that's good okay
let's just say I know John Bolton
doesn't like it but it's it's
good and it's kind of what we should be
looking for but um now it's it's not
possible and you know if you had like a
coalition of countries against Israel I
know Israel has nuclear weapons and has
a capable military
and all that in the backing of the
United States but like you don't it's a
small country I think I'd be very
worried um so there's that and I don't
see any advantage in uh to the United
States I mean I don't I think it's
important for each country to make its
own decisions but it also is a place
like you said where things are boiling
over and it could spread across multiple
Nations into a major military conflict
yeah well I think very easily could
happen in fact probably right after
Ramadan if I had to guess and uh I pray
it doesn't but again I don't think you
can overstate the lack of wisdom
weakness short-term thinking of American
foreign policy leadership these are the
architects of the Iraq War of the the
totally pointless destruction of Libya
totally pointless destruction of Syria
and the 20-year occupation of
Afghanistan that resulted in a return to
the status quo so like they of the
Vietnam
War their track record of the Korean War
even going back 80 years is
uninterrupted
failures one after the other
so I just don't have any confidence in
those leaders to imp when was the last
time they improved another
country can you think of that oh the
Marshall
Plan well you look at Europe now and
you're like I don't know you know if
that worked um but even if it did work
again 80 years ago so when was the last
country American foreign policy makers
improved so if I
were Netanyahu is in a very difficult
Place politically impossible I mean I'm
glad I'm not Netanyahu um and I'm not
sure he's capable of making wise
long-term decisions anyway but if I was
just like an
Israeli I'd be like I don't know if I
want like all this help and
guidance um so yeah I actually think
it's worse than just having just
returned for the Middle East and talking
to a lot of pretty open-minded sort of
pro-israeli Arabs who want stability
above all the merchant class always
wants stability so I'm on their side I
guess and
uh they they're like man this could get
super ugly super fast American
leadership is completely absent the it's
just all posturing it's like people like
Nikki Haley you just wonder like how
does an advanced civilization promote
someone like Nikki Haley to a position
of authority it's like what
sh sh adults are talking adults are
talking Nik please go away like that
that would be the appropriate response
but everyone's so intimidated to be like
oh she's a strong woman she's so
transparently weak and sort of
ridiculous and doesn't know anything and
is just like thinks that jumping up and
down and making these absurd blanket
statements repeating bumper stickers is
like leadership or something it's
like a self-confident advanced society
would never allow Nikki Haley to advance
I mean she's really not impressive sorry
I I just feel like you hold back too
much and don't tell us what you really
think sorry I think you just should
speak your mind these are not I mean you
can completely disagree with my
opinions but in the case of Nicki Haley
it's not like an opinion form just from
watching television which I don't watch
it's an opinion form from knowing Nikki
Haley so um strong words from Tucker I
felt
too well the world's in the balance I
mean it's not just like this is
important stuff yeah it's not just like
well you know what should the capital
gains rate be it's like do we live or
die I don't know let's consult Nikki
Haley so if you're asking should we live
or die in Consulting Nikki Haley clearly
you don't care about the lives of your
children that's how I feel not to try to
get a preview or anything but do you
have interest of interviewing uh xiin
ping and if you do how will you approach
that I have enormous interest in doing
that enormous and a couple other people
and we're working on it um yeah I should
also say like it's been refreshing you
interviewing world leaders I think when
I've started seeing you do that it made
me realize how much that's lacking well
yeah it's just interesting I mean I from
even a historical perspective is
interesting but it's also important from
a geopolitics perspective well it's
really changed my perspective and I've
been going on about how American I am
and I think that's a great thing I love
American America but it's also you know
we're so physically geographically
isolated from the world even though I
traveled a ton as a kid a lot you know
more than most people but even now I'm
like I'm so
parochial I'm so I see everything
through this lens and getting out and
seeing the rest of the world to which we
really are connected like that's
real is is vitally important so I yeah I
mean at this stage I don't you know kind
of need to do it but I really want to
just motivated by curiosity and trying
to expand my own mind and not be
close-minded and really see the fullest
perspective I possibly can in order to
render wise judgments I mean that's like
the whole journey of
life I was just hanging out with Rogan
yesterday Joe Rogan and uh you know I
mentioned to him that is me being a fan
of his show that I would love for him to
talk with you and he said uh he's up for
it and you reason you guys haven't done
it already I don't know I would I
there's no I've only met Rogan once and
I and I liked him I met him at the UFC
in New York he was with right somebody
at we a mutual friend of ours and uh I
you know Rogan changed media I mean
maybe more than anybody and he did it
what I love about what I admire about
Rogan without knowing him Beyond medium
that one
time I mean I'm still a media but I've
always been a media you know it's like
not a great surprise I'm doing what I've
always done just a different format but
Rogan like he's got one of those resumes
that I admire you know I like the guy
who was like I was a long Shan I was a
short order cook I was an astrophysicist
I was I mean was like he called a man of
parts and this guy was a a fighter a
standup comic he hosted some you know
Fear Factor and like how did he wind up
at the Vanguard of
like the deepest conversations in the
country like how did that happen so I
definitely respect that and I think it's
cool and he Rogan is one of those people
who just kind of came out of nowhere
like no one helped him MH you know what
I mean he was doing he was doing the
thing that he loves doing and it somehow
keeps accidentally uh being
exceptionally successful yeah and he's
curious so that that's like the main
thing and there was a guy without
getting boring but there was a guy I
worked with years ago who like kind of
dominated cable news Larry King and
everyone would always beat up on Larry
King for being dumb well I got to know
Larry King well and I was his filling
host for a while and Larry King was just
intensely curious he'd be like why do
you wear a black tie Lex CU I like black
tie why do you like a black tie no one
everyone else wears a stripe tie you
wear a black one why and he would like
he was like really interested yeah
genuinely so yeah
totally and and I want to be like that I
don't want to think I know everything
that's so borish and also false you
don't know everything but I see that in
Rogan's like ra how does that work and
people will and it's so funny how that's
threatening to people it's like Rogan
will just sit there while someone else
is you know freeballing on some far out
topic which by the way might be true
probably trer than the conventional
explanation people like I don't know how
can he stand that you know he had
someone say the pyramids weren't built
3,000 years ago but 8,000 years ago and
that's wrong it's like first of all how
do you know when the pyramids were built
second why do you care if someone
disagrees with you like what is that
this weird kind of like group think it's
it's almost like you know fourth grade
there's always like some little girl in
the front rows like acting as the you
know kind of the teachers enforcer like
Whip and be like sit down didn't you
hear what Mrs Johnson said sit down
that's like the it's like the whole
American Media how dare you asked that
question and Rogan just seems like
completely on his own trip like he
doesn't even hear it he's like well
really when were the pyramids built I
was like I love that yeah curiosity
open-mindedness the thing I admire about
him most honestly is uh he's a good
father he's a good husband he's a good
family man uh for many years and like
that's his uh place where he escapes
from the world too and it's just
beautiful without that man you're
destroyed yeah if I had a wife who was
interested at all in any way in what I
did I think I would have gone crazy by
by now when we get home we don't she's
like how was your day it was great oh
I'm so proud of you that's the end of
our conversation about what I do for a
living and and that is such a wonderful
and essential respit from you said how
do I not become an asshole to the extent
I haven't I kind of have but how I not
been you know transformed into a totally
insufferable megalomaniac who like
checking his Twitter replies every day
or every minute um it's that yeah you
got to have the core of your life has to
be solid and enduring and not just
ephemeral and silly so the the two of
you have known each other for what 40
years we've been together 40 years
together 40 years 40 years yeah
1984 was the hottest 15-year-old in
Newport Rhode Island wow sounds dirty
but I was I'm talking about myself I was
the hottest yeah you were just looking
in the mirror very nice so what's what's
the secret to a successful relationship
successful
marriage I don't even know I
mean no I'm I'm serious yeah I got
married in August 91 so that's well it's
our 30 third year of being married
follow with the collapse of the yeah as
noted yeah so you know you hear these
people it's actually changed my theology
a little bit not that I have deep
theology
but like I grew up in a society in
Southern
California when I was little that was
like a totally self-created Society I
mean Southern California was it was the
root of libertarianism for a reason it
was like that's where you went to
recreate yourself and so the the
operative assumption there is that you
are the sum total of your
choices and that free will will is
everything and we never consider
questions like well why did children get
cancer like what do they do to deserve
it well of course nothing right because
that would suggest that maybe you're not
the Su total your choices matter if I
smoke a lot might get lung cancer if I
use fentanyl I may o got it if I don't
exercise him I get fat okay but like on
a bigger scale you're not only the subt
sum total of your choices like things
happen to you that you didn't deserve
good and bad
and marriage is and I'll speak for
myself in thata in my case just one of
them and I could say I mean clearly
spending time with the person you're
married to talking enjoying each other
you know I I have a lot of rituals we
have a lot of rituals that ensure that
but in 40 years like you CH you're like
a different person you know I like did
drugs I was drinking all the time when
we
met you know it's been a long time since
I've been done that I'm very different
and so is she but we're different in
ways that are complimentary and happy
never been happier so like how do we
pull that off just kind of good luck
honestly and then I see other PE no I'm
I'm not kidding but that's true I think
it's so
important not to flatter yourself if
you've been successful at something the
thing I've been most successful at is
marriage but I it's not really me I mean
I haven't so I think what you indirectly
communic is it's like humility I think
is it's not even humility humility is
the result of a reality based World viw
sure okay once you see things clearly
then you know that you are not the
author of all your successes or
failures and I
hate the implication otherwise because
it suggests powers that people don't
have it's one of the reasons I always
hated the smoking debate or the covid
debate someone die of covid to do have
the V they be like see this is what you
get you smoke cigarettes you die well
shit i' you know yeah if you smoke
cigarettes you more likely to get lung
cancer if you don't you know if you get
whatever cause and effect is real I'm
not denying its existence it's obvious
but it's not the whole
story there are larger forces acting on
us unseen forces that's just a fact you
don't need to be some kind of religious
nut and they act on AI too and you
should keep that in mind the idea that
alling way you said that no it's true
it's it it's demonstrably true we're the
only society that hasn't acknowledged
the truth of that and the idea that the
only things that are real are the things
that we can see or measure in a lab like
that that's insane that's just dumb in
the uh religious context you have this
two categories that I really like that
of the two kinds of people people who
believe they're God and people who know
they're not which is
a really interesting division that
speaks to humility and a kind of realist
world view of where we are in the world
oh can uh can atheists be in the uh
latter category no
there are very few atheists I've never
actually met one there are people who
poses
atheists but no one's purely rational
and everyone I mean this is a cliche for
a reason everyone under extreme stress
appeals to a power higher than himself
because everyone knows that there is a
power higher than himself so really it's
just people who are gripped with a
delusion that they're God no one
actually believes that if you're God
jump off the roof of your garage and see
what happens you know what I mean no one
actually thinks that but people behave
as if it's true and those people are
dangerous and I will say by contrast the
only people I trust are the people who
know their limits and I was thinking
actually this morning in my sauna um of
all the people I've interviewed or met
this is someone I've never interviewed
but I have talked to him a couple of
times the greatest leader I've ever met
in the
world is literally a
king it's mbz shik Muhammad of Abu Dhabi
who is Muslim I am definitely not Muslim
I'm Christian Protestant Christian and
so I don't agree with his religion and I
don't agree with
monarchies um but he's the best leader
in the world that I've ever met and by
far it's like not even close and why is
that well there I could bore you for an
hour on the subject but the
the the reason that he's such a good
leader is because he's Guided by an
everpresent knowledge of his limitations
and of the limits of his power and of
his foresight and when you start there
when you start with reality it's not
even humility humility can be opposed
like oh I'm so I'm so humble okay humble
brag is a phrase for a reason it's like
way deeper than that it's just like no
can I do I have magical powers can I see
the future no okay that's just a fact so
I'm not God but I've never seen anybody
more at ease with admitting that and one
than mbz just a remarkable person and
for that reason he is like treated as an
oracle I don't think people understand
the number of world leaders who trapes
through his house or Palace to seek his
counsel is there's not I I'm not sure
that there is a parallel since I don't
want to get too hyperbolic here but
honestly since like Solomon where people
come from like around the world to ask
what he thinks now why would they be
doing that
because Abu dhabi's military is so
powerful I mean he's Rich okay massive
oil and gas deposits but like for a lot
of you know so's Canada you know what I
mean and no one is coming to Ottawa tawa
to ask Justin Trudeau what he thinks no
it's humility that's where wisdom comes
from you start to think like I spent my
whole life like mad at America's
leadership class because it's not just
Biden
or the people in official positions it's
the whole constellation of advisers and
Throne sniffers around them and I'm it's
not even that I disagree with them it's
I'm not impressed by them I'm just not
impressed they're not that capable right
so that's what I was saying about Nikki
halot I don't think she Nikki Hal's the
most evil person in the world I think
she's ridiculous obviously and
everyone's like oh Niki halier Mike
Pompeo what great leaders are so rare
that when you see one you know it right
away it blows your mind and what blows
my mind about shik in Abu Dhabi is that
everyone in the world knows it and I've
never seen a story on this and I'm not
guessing I know this is true because
I've seen it everyone in the world knows
it and so if there's a conflict he's the
only person that people call like
everybody calls the same guy and it's
like he runs this tiny little country
the UAE I mean he's the in Abu Dhabi
they're a bunch of Emirates but he's the
president of the country but still and
it's got a ton of energy and all that
and all that and Dubai's got great real
estate and restaurants but but really
it's a tiny little country that wasn't
even a country 50 years ago so how did
that happen purely on the basis of his
humility and the wisdom that results
from that humility that's it what advice
would you give to young people you got
four you somehow made them into great
human beings what advice would you give
people in high school have children
immediately including in high school yes
I think that that's all that matters
like in the end you know again these
aren't even cliches anymore because no
one says them but when I was a kid
people always say on your deathbed you
never wish you spent more time at
work and I mean everyone said that it
was like one of these things and now now
I don't think Google allows you to say
that it's like no you're going to wish
you spent more time at work get back to
your Cube but um I can't overstate from
my
vantage how true that is nothing else
matters but
your family and if you have the
opportunity and a lot of people are
being denied the opportunity to have
children and this messing with the
gender rules and I'm not even talking
about the tranny stuff I mean the I mean
feminism has so destroyed people's
brains and the ability of young people
to connect with each other and stay
together and have fruitful lives it's
like nothing's been more destructive
than that it's such a lie it's so dumb
it's counter to human nature and nothing
counter to human nature can can endure
can cause suffering and that's what it's
done but fight that stop complaining
about it find someone by the way
everyone gets together most people get
together on the basis in a fre in a
western Society where there's no
arranged marriages they get together on
the basis of sexual attraction totally
natural get off your birth control and
have children oh I can't afford that
well yeah you'll figure out a way to
afford it once you have kids it's like
it's chicken in the egg but it's
actually
not when you have responsibility when
you have no Cho this is true of men I'm
not sure if true of women but it's
definitely true of men you will not
achieve until you have no choice as I
always think of men men do nothing until
they have to but once they have to they
will do anything that is that is true
men will do nothing unless they have to
but once they have to they will do
anything I really believe that from
watching and from being one and I would
never have done anything if I didn't
have to but I had to and and I would
just recommend it and but by the way
even if you don't succeed and even if
you're
poor having spent my life among rich
people I grew up among rich people I am
a rich person boy are they unhappy well
that's clearly not the ro road to
happiness you know you don't want to be
a debt slave or starve to death or
anything like that but like making a
billion dollars that's not worth doing
don't do that don't even try to do that
if you create something that's beautiful
and worth having and you make a billion
dollars okay then you have to deal with
your billion dollars which will be the
worst part of your life trust me but
seeking money for its own sake is a is a
dead end what you should seek for its
own sake is children
talk about a creative act last thing
I'll say the whole point of life is to
create okay the Act of Creation which is
like dying in the West in the Arts and
in its most pure expression which is
children that's all that's worth doing
while you're alive is creating something
beautiful and creating children by the
way it's super fun it's not hard I can
get more technical off the air if you
want yeah please I have a lot of
thoughts on it do you have documents or
something no I I could draw you a
schematic thank you but yeah that's the
greatest thing and the fact that
Corporate America denies oh freeze your
eggs have an abortion what you're a
you're evil are you kidding because
you're taking from people the only thing
that can possibly give them enduring joy
and they are successfully taking it from
people and I hate them for it uh you
founded TCN talk Carlson Network what's
your vision for it I have no vision for
myself for my career and and I never
have so I'm like the last person to
explain
just roll with it yeah I'm an instinct
guy 100% I have a vision for the world
but I don't have a vision for my life or
my career so really my vision extended
precisely this far I just want to keep
doing what I'm doing I just want to keep
doing what I'm doing and there was a you
know a 5 hour period where I wondered if
I would be able to cuz I I feel pretty
spry and like alert and I'm certainly
deeply enjoying what I'm doing which is
talking to people and saying what I
think and learning constantly learning
um and but I just wanted to keep doing
that and
so um and I also wanted to employ the
people who I worked with at Fox I've
worked with the same people for years
and I love them and so I had you know
all these people and I wanted to bring
them with me so we had to build a
structure for that this feels like one
of the first times you're really working
for yourself like the there's an extra
level of Freedom here totally totally
and the good you know I'm not you don't
want me doing your taxes like I'm good
at some things but I'm really not good
at others so and one of them would be
like running a business like no idea I'm
not interested not a Commerce guy so I
don't buy anything so it's like the
whole thing I'm not good at but
um U luckily you know I'm really blessed
to have friends who are involved in this
who are good at that so I feel I feel
positive about it but mostly I
am I'm totally committed to only doing
the things that I am good at and enjoy
and not doing anything else cuz I don't
want tote my time and uh so I'm just
getting to do what I want to do and I'm
really loving it what hope positive hope
do you have for the future of human
civilization in uh say 50 years 100
years 200 years people are great just by
their nature I mean they're super
complicated but I I like people I always
have liked
people you know if I was sitting here
with Nikki Haley who I've I guess I've
been pretty clear I'm not like a mega
fan of Nikki
Haley's I would enjoy it you know I've
never met anybody I couldn't enjoy on
some level given enough time so as long
as nobody tampers with the human
recipe with human nature itself I will
always feel blessed by being around
other people and that's true around the
world like i' I've never been to a
country and I've been to scores of
countries where I didn't given a week
really like it and like the people so
yeah bad leaders are like
a you know recurring theme in human
history like they're mostly bad and
we've got an unusually bad set right now
but we'll have better ones at some point
I just don't want
to I don't one the one thing I don't
like more than nuclear weapons and more
than AI the one thing that really really
bothers me is the idea of using
technology to change the human brain
permanently because you're tampering
with the secret sauce you're tampering
with God's creation and um totally evil
I mean I literally sat there the other
day with cl Schwab I was with cl Schwab
was like a total moron and like 100
years old and like has no idea what's
going on in the world but he's like one
of these guys who speaking of mediocre
everyone's so afraid of CLA Schwab I
don't think CLA Schwab is going to be
organizing anything again he's just like
a total figurehead like a douchebag but
anyway but he was talking and he's
reading all these talking points like
all what the cool kids are talking about
ados and whatever and he starts talking
about in his surve in his accent he was
saying I think it's so important that we
follow in an ethical way always in an
ethical way of course Very ethical I'm a
very ethical man that we follow the you
know using technology to improves your
human mind and implant the chips in the
brain and I'm like okay you have no idea
what you're talking about you're like as
scile as Joe Biden but what was so
striking is that no one in the room was
like wait what you're fucking with
people's brains like back off like what
are you even talking about who do you
think you are you know it's like I mean
you're right the secret sauce There the
human mind is really special like we
should not mess with it should be very
careful and whatever special thing it
does it seems like it's a good thing
like human beings are fundamentally good
like
these sources of creativity a creative
force in the universe would don't want
mess with oh I mean what else matters I
I don't understand I mean I guess look I
I don't I don't want to seem like the
uni bomber and I'm not we are in a cabin
in the woods no I don't I'm sympathetic
to some of his ideas but not of course
sending mail bombs to people because I
like people but um and I don't believe
in violence at all
but I I think the problem with
technology one of the problems with
technology is the way that people
approach it in a very kind of mindless
heedless
way and I think it's important this idea
that it's inexorable and we can't
control it and if we don't do it someone
else will and there's some truth in that
but it's not the whole story we do have
free will and we are creating these
things intentionally and I think it's
incumbent on us it's a requirement of a
moral requirement of us that we ask like
is this a net gain or a net loss what to
the extent we can foresee them will the
effects be etc etc it's like it's not
not super complicated so I just I I
prize long-term thinking I don't always
apply it in my own life obviously I I
want to but uh I prize it and I think
that people with power should think
about future generations and I don't see
that kind of thinking at all they all
seem like children to me and like don't
give children handguns because they can
hurt people yeah fundamentally you want
people in power to be Pro Humanity by
the way you don't want people who are 81
who were going to die anyway why do they
care and by the way if your track record
with your own family is miserable why
would I give you my family to oversee I
just don't I like again these are
autistic level questions that someone
should
answer well thank you for asking those
questions first of all and um thank you
for this conversation thank you for
welcoming you to the cabin in the woods
thank you thanks for listening to this
conversation with talker Carlson to
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let me leave you some words from Mahatma
Gandhi when I despair I remember that
all through history the way of Truth and
Love has always won there have been
tyrants and murderers and for a time
they can seem Invincible but in the end
they always fall think of it
always thank you for listening and hope
to see you next time