Kind: captions
Language: en
I am standing on the edge of the cliff
the entire night and if I you know mess
something up mess it up like what even
is a mistake but if I do like a little
clunker or whatever it is it's like so
what I like I wouldn't have played half
the stuff that I'm playing if I wasn't
constantly standing on the edge of the
cliff like wild why why are you stand on
the edge of the cliff because at the
edge of the cliff is all
possibilities
the following is a conversation with t
Wilkenfeld a singer songwriter basist
guitarist and a true musician who has
recorded and performed with many
legendary artists including Jeff Beck
Prince Eric lton Incubus Herby Hancock
MC Jagger Jackson Brown Rod Stewart
David Gilmore farel Hans Zimmer and many
many more this was a fun and fascinating
conversation this is Alex Freedman
podcast to support it please check out
our sponsors in the description and now
dear friends here's T
Wilkenfeld there's a legendary video of
you playing with Jeff Beck we're
actually watching it in the background
now so for people who don't know Jeff is
one of the greatest guitarists ever uh
so you're playing with him at the
2007 uh Crossroads Festival mhm and
people should definitely watch that
video you were killing it on the on the
Bas look at that
face uh were you scared what was that
experience like were you nervous you
don't look nervous uh confident yeah I'm
I wasn't nervous I I think that you can
get an adrenaline rush before a stage
which is natural but I think as soon as
you bring fear to a band stand you're
you're like limiting yourself you're
kind of like wooling yourself off from
everyone else if you're afraid like what
is there to be afraid of that you must
be afraid of making a mistake and
therefore you're coming at it as like a
perfectionist and you can't come at
music that way or it's not going to be
as expansive and vulnerable and true so
no I was excited and passionate
and having the having the best time and
also you know the fact that he gave me
this
solo the context of this performance is
that this was a Guitar Festival it's one
of the biggest guitar festivals in the
world cuz Eric Clapton's festival and
there's like 400 guitarists that are all
playing like solos all night and we were
like towards the end of the night and I
I could tell like Jeff like got like a
kick out of you know I'm I'm not going
to solo on like one of my most
well-known songs C V's lovers well
Stevie Wonder wrote it but people know
Jeff for that song and his solo on it
like I'm going to give it to my b player
and like and he did and like that he's
like bowing like that that that like he
didn't have to do that but you really
stepped up
there it just it just shows what a
generous musician he is and that's
evident in his playing across the board
is he is a generous loving open musician
he's not there for himself he's there
for the music and he thought well would
be the perfect musical thing to do um
and it kind of all started like when I
went to audition for him uh which was an
interesting experience because I got I
got food
poisoning um on the plane and so like
literally when the plane landed I went
straight into an ambulance into um a
hospital overnight the manager picked me
up and I showed up at Jeff's door which
was like a three-hour drive like through
wind Country Roads and he answered the
door he's like okay you ready to play so
we went upstairs and started like
rattling off the set and when it came to
this song Co of's lovers he just said
solo
and he he loved it and kept the Solo in
it so that's kind of how cuz that there
was no bass solo before I was playing in
his band so this whole thing was kind of
new so even with food poisoning like you
you could step up yeah that's just like
what Instinct it's just being able to
differentiate from like the body and
from like expression music all right
yeah you know it's interesting you said
fear walls you off from the other
musicians and what are you afraid of
you're afraid of making a mistake you
know uh bethoven said to play a wrong
note is insignificant to play without
passion is inexcusable yeah do you think
uh the old man had a point yeah
different styles of music invite uh
varying degrees
of
um I would say uncertainty or unsafety
in in the way that people might perceive
it so for instance like the tour that I
was just on like playing Almond Brothers
songs like I am standing on the edge of
the cliff the entire night and if I you
know mess something up mess it up like
what even is a mistake but if I do like
a little clunker or whatever it is it's
like so what I like I wouldn't have
played half the stuff that I'm playing
if I wasn't constantly standing on the
edge of the cliff like wild and
so I don't care about those few little
things I care about the overall
expression and then there's other gigs
that you know for instance if I got
called for like a pop or country session
or a
show the in those environments they may
want you to play safe like just play the
pop pot and play it with a great Groove
and time and great Dynamics and don't
really Veer away from the pot and stuff
and and I've done plenty of those gigs
too it's just it's just a different like
hat you put on what do you get from the
veering from the veering off the beaten
path you just love it or is that going
to make the the performance
better like why why why you stand at the
edge of the cliff because at the edge of
the cliff is all
possibilities and unknown you don't know
what's coming and I love being there in
the
unknown it otherwise it's just like why
are we doing this am I am I just like a
clown on stage like showing you my
skills or what you know what I've
studied in my bedroom it's like no like
I I want to be like pure expression
happening right now and responding in
real real time to everything that's
happening and anytime I'm not doing that
it's like it's a waste of everybody's
time have you ever messed it up real
bad mess what
up I mean you know comedians bomb you're
a big fan of Comedy yeah have you ever
bombed on stage
probably I think I think it's all about
recovery you know and the more times
that you fall off the cliff yeah the
quicker you know how to recover and um
the the varying ways that you can
recover to to the point in which it's
concealed so much that maybe a listener
might not even know that you're
recovering and eventually you learned to
fly if we take that metaphor all the way
off the cliff you know you Lear all
right I remember one time when I was
really
young well not really young but like
when I was 21
or2 yeah exactly um but when I was first
playing with Jeff
Beck and we played at what I consider
the best the coolest jazz festival it's
montro Jazz and like miles played there
everyone play there and they have the
best speaker system ever I was excited
for months and the drummer Vinnie was
like practicing for like eight hours in
the bus on the way there and everyone
was like on fire on stage and I remember
playing a note just one note that I
really didn't like and
I let it go in the moment on stage but
as soon as I got off stage I was really
sad and so I sat like on this road case
everyone was out celebrating I like sat
on this road case with a sad face
like and then Claude noobs like the
owner of the you know the whole festival
came up to me he's like dll what's wrong
and I'm like I played a bad
not such a child and like he he said all
this wise stuff that you know Miles
Davis has had imparted to him and like
it fully cheered me up um he's like is
there anything that would make you feel
better and I was like
caviar the dude came back 10 minutes
later with this huge thing oh wow it was
a joke it was a joke but he actually
brought me cavat but anyway that's the
that's the one time that I remember
being sad about a performance now I'm
just like okay whatever like it's done
was it a physical slip of like the
fingers or was it did you intend to play
that note that I can't
remember I I I can't remember if it was
just a bad choice that I that sounded
like a clanger or why it happened it was
so long ago but I I don't get depressed
about that anymore that'd be funny if
that was like your biggest and only
regret in life is that note and that
haunted you in your dreams and then like
you know like I'm on my deathbed and
just everyone's just bringing me caviar
because of the one joke went way too far
you you talked about
confidence somewhere I don't remember
where so I want to ask you about how
much confidence it takes to be up there
you said something that Anthony Jackson
told you as encouragement a line that I
really like that quote on your worst day
you're still a bad
motherfucker that's actually a a Steve
Gad quote and Steve used to tell that to
Anthony because Anthony used to get real
depressed if he did a wrong thing or not
perfect thing and Steve Gad used to say
this to Anthony Jackson and then Anthony
was my first base Mentor or just Mentor
in general for people don't know he's a
legendary basis to a legendary basist
and I I started playing the bass when I
was 17 and I moved to New York and I met
Anthony and he started mentoring me bit
in a very not typical way like he like
would just sit in his car with me for
hours and talk music and you guys just
listen to music and analyze it exactly
um and that was the best form of
learning I think just like well what do
you perceive here and well I heard this
and just discussing that um Jazz usually
or no old old styles of music and uh
yeah he told me that story about it on
your worst day because you know like
yeah even then like when I was like 18
19 I get sad sometimes about
performances like I could have done this
it's like I don't do that anymore
thankfully or I'd be miserable so you
still you always kind of feel pretty
good yeah yeah now I
do now now it's just I I I sense the
body feeling fatigued especially if it's
a very long show like the ones I just
did with three hour shows and we did you
know one to three hour sound checks so
that's a lot of physical activity every
day um so I just feel the body being
tired like fatigued the ears are
fatigued that's about it I don't really
reflect on the show much you're almost
like from a third person perspective
feel the body get tired and just accept
it yeah I don't want to identify with it
because then I'm like then then I'm
tired but I'm not tired I'm usually like
energized it's like with the food
poisoning the mind is still yeah capable
of creative genius even if the body is
gone yeah something like that yeah so no
self-critical component to the way you
see your performances anymore there is
uh there is critique but not in the way
that it would diminish my sense of self
it's different I can just kind of look
at something and be like okay well
actually next time I'll I'll do this
choice and this Choice maybe maybe this
would serve the song better um maybe
this would help uh the groove feel more
like this but it's not like I suck
because I did this and I'm a loser and
like you think that's bad cuz I even
when I asked that question I had a
self-critical thought that why' you ask
that question that's the wrong question
I always have the self-critical enery in
writing is it necessarily A Bad Thing it
depends if it's affecting you negatively
what is negative anyway well if if it
brings your frequency down and you feel
less joyful inside unless you don't feel
like complete you feel less than less
worthy of something thing then you could
call that bad if you aspire to not feel
that way yeah I aspire to not feel that
way in the big picture but in the little
picture like there's a pain is a little
pain is good that's fair so confidence
you seem like in this performance you
seem confident you seem to be truly
walking the the bad motherfucker way of
life I kind of a word that I prefer over
confidence is Trust
because I think with confidence is
almost
like there's there a belief assigned to
it that I am this thing that you believe
in whereas trust is just simply knowing
that you can get up there and handle
whatever is going to come your way and
it's it's it's more of an open feeling
where it's like yeah I could I could do
this sure but not like I'm a bad
motherfucker like you know what I mean
this there's a huge difference cuz I've
shared the stage with people who have a
lot of confidence and it can be like a
brick wall just like fear is a brick
wall so the brick wall is a bad thing
like the thing you have with Jeff here
on stage is not a brick wall there's no
wall this is chemistry yeah how can you
explain that chemistry that the two of
you had trust and lack of fear yeah and
also I will say you know that uh each
individual has developed likes and
dislikes over their their lifetime and
that can be like in this case we're just
talking aesthetic likes and dislikes so
in this particular case obviously our
likes and dislikes are very much aligned
such that the things I do to compliment
him he enjoys and vice versa but it
could be two you know very trusting open
uh musicians on stage that don't have
walls up but their choices are very
different and one person likes heavy
metal and the other person likes
classical so it's it's got to be both so
you guys were good at like yes anding
each other musically like definitely is
that where you're
most at peace in a meditative way is on
stage um it used to be that it would
only be on stage it started with that
that was almost like my way in to Flow
State and meditation was playing music
and then
uh back in the day when I'd kind of
crash after shows I wanted to change
that I wanted to always feel like I'm in
Flow State so have you succeeded I've
gotten a lot better I'm still obviously
on the journey but yes so you meditate I
think you said somewhere that you
meditate before shows or just in general
I I meditate every day um when I'm on
tour with my band I ask that we all
meditate together for at least 20
minutes and I don't dictate what which
type of meditation I don't put on a
guided meditation cuz everyone has their
own thing they want to do maybe someone
might be praying in their head it
doesn't matter it's just the idea that
we all put our phones down and we all
are in one room connecting energetically
spiritually and just letting Our Lives
go for a second and and then we walk
straight on the stage and it's always
really connected and there were a couple
gigs where we ran out of time for that
and I could tell there was a there was a
major difference in the
performance so it both connects you and
centers you all those things yeah but
then when I'm home like I love to
meditate and I've tried various styles
of meditation and studied
various types of things so I I don't do
just one thing I kind of customize it
depending on where I'm at in my life
you and the world lost Jeff Beck a year
ago you told me you really miss him
how's the pain of losing Jeff change you
maybe deepen your sense of the
world you know it's hard to accept that
we won't create
something musically again in this
lifetime
um but in terms of the grief
grief was easier for me because I went
through a major grief period in
2016 uh and
17 and that was the first time I'd
really gone through the process of grief
uh in a in a like in a
nonam situation like with friends and
mentors and people that I'd created with
which is different it's a different kind
of connection um when my grandparents
died it's like there was nothing left
unsaid and I was at peace with what was
happening with this when Prince died out
of the blue um in mid uh 2016 and then
Leonard Cohen died in
November that just tore me to shreds
because Leonard Cohen was not just
someone that
profoundly inspired me you know
musically and lyrically but spiritually
we had a very deep
connection um and that was the basis of
a lot of our conversation was
spirituality and so at that time I felt
like a piece of me went
missing and that was a very long process
where I just stayed in my place and
didn't want to play a note of music I
kind of wanted to just get rid of all my
stuff so I I had a friend come over and
he's like you should just once you come
to The Comedy Store I'm like Comedy
Store like what am I going to go go to
some store and buy clown suits like what
are you talking about what's a comedy
store he's like no no no like The Comedy
Store the place where like comedians go
I'm like okay well I've I've never seen
standup I I don't you know I've seen
Seinfeld on TV that's like the extent of
my standup experience so he took me to
the comedy
store and every single one of those
comedians like embraced me like I was
family it didn't even take a day I was
like part of the family and I made like
25 best
friends and I ended up throwing all my
stuff in storage and like finding a
little room to stay in where I rented my
gear out uh
and that was me pay my rent paying was
me L loaning the gear because I didn't
want any any responsibilities Financial
I just wanted to be
completely free so that I could like
just process it and not feel like I had
to commit to anything workwise or
creatively I just wanted to unplug and
so this was like a fun and very
different way to unplug because you know
previously I may have just gone to a
monastery and spent you know weeks at a
monasterial months but in this case I
was like you know what this is a
different kind of experience I'm going
to just hang out with Comedians and stay
in this room and with no responsibility
really yeah other than to really deeply
connect with this grief that I'm
experiencing I'm not going to negate it
I'm not I'm I'm going to really
fully connect to it and I did and it was
tough and then you know more more people
in 20177 were leaving Greg Al and Tom
Petty I mean it was like these are
people that I I worked with all these
people and like had great connections
with them and they were all going and
the world was mourning the loss of these
people because of everything that they'
they'd given to the world like they'd
changed the world's lives not just mine
CU I knew them personally and so that
was also complicated and why for me it
was it was interesting to be grieving
the loss of these musicians with
Comedians and uh I learned a lot it
changed my life because I just learned
to I learned to laugh at absolutely
anything everything I mean my grandpa
had a really great sense of humor too my
grandpa's a holocaust Survivor and like
he could just kind of like laugh at
anything and like so I already kind of
have that in me but being around all
these comedians just kind of like
exaggerated that for me and that really
changed things for me for the better so
then when Jeff Beck died it was like
okay I've got these tools I know what
this is and and I'm going to go through
it again and I'm going to be on tour
with Incubus in two days yeah and so
Mike dur from Green
Day he called me up he said hey like I
know you're going through a lot and I
said yeah I don't even know what I'm
going to play like I really want a
vintage Jazz base for this I only have a
70s one that I don't really think is
appropriate I really need a 60s one blah
blah blah and Mike's like I'm going to
hook you up he showed up to my place the
next day with a truckload of old PAB
bases and Jazz bases and brought them
all into my studio and I'm playing them
and then I pull one out of the case and
it's it's Olympic White just like Jeff
Beck
and I play it and not only did I get
goosebumps and stuff started crying but
I looked over at Mike and same thing was
happening and he's like uh I guess I
guess Jeff might might be happy about
this and he's like well you know I
didn't want to let this one go I was
just trying to cheer you up a bit and
maybe loan it to you for the tour but if
you really want
it it's yours and I was like oh my God
this is like like what a like Mike D is
the nicest guy ever
um so so that happened so that bass's
name is Jeff and it's a white Jazz base
and I played it on the incubus tour but
yeah I do feel like I'm more equipped to
handle grief now tell me about The
Comedy Store a little bit more do you
think um Comedians and musicians in some
deep fundamental way are made from the
same cloth like are they
spiritually connected somehow I think
everyone's connected
in the same way so I think personality
wise um Comedians and musicians are
quite different actually oh in what
way well you you'd have to subdivide
even musicians into different categories
too because you know the thing that I
appreciate about comedians is that you
know you go to a restaurant with them
and like all the observational humor of
like they'll just they'll notice
everything and make you laugh about it
which a really great great songwriter
does the same thing too and my favorite
lyricists like Leonard Cohen Bob Dylan
Paul Simon they you know Warren zon they
add comedy into their lyric and like so
those types of people I would liken to
hanging out with a comedian it's very
different from like say somebody that is
an instrumental guitarist or something
like that that they're they're more
focused on whether it's like a
kinesthetic thing or like a physical
thing or whatever it is they're not
they're not quite doing the
observational thing in the same way so I
just appreciate like my favorite thing
to do is go out and laugh especially
because like I can tend to be pretty
analytical and be in my head um and so
anything that just kind of lets me be in
my heart and just enjoy life I think
there's a photo of you with de Chappelle
on stage was that about so right after
Leonard Cohen passed away The Comedy
Store threw me a birthday party it was
this crazy lineup and like it was like
I'd play a song with my
band and um and then Jackson Brown sat
in and like sung a song and then like
Dave Chappelle came up and said some
jokes it was like it was like one of my
favorite nights ever yeah yeah it was
cool it was it was a very healing
birthday party yeah there's something
magical about that place yeah it's
really special yeah well the mothership
has some magic to it too it's really
cool it's different totally different
vibe but like super awesome you've said
that uh Lena Cohen is uh a songwriting
inspiration of
yours I saw you perform his song Chelsea
Hotel brilliantly on the
internet um it's about for people who
don't know his uh his love affair with
uh Janet Joplin
how's that song make you feel great I
love that song which aspect musically
The Melancholy feeling the hopeful
feeling the the the cocky feeling all of
it like every single line has a
different feeling to it really yeah but
as a whole piece I I I appreciate it so
much I actually lived at the Chelsea
Hotel and when when Leonard and I first
met that was one of the first things we
talked about was the you know I lived
there where all that stuff went down
before they tore it apart and um yeah I
it's just a beautiful song you know what
makes me sad the way it ends I don't
mean to suggest that I loved you the
best I can't keep track of each Fallen
Robin I remember you well in the Chelsea
Hotel that's all I don't even think of
you that often you know that line I
don't even think of you that often
always like breaks my heart for some
reason like how ephemeral how shortl
lasting like certain love affairs can be
just kind of like huh yeah do you think
he meant it I always think he doesn't
he's trying to convince himself of it it
could be both or either you know I mean
that's the beautiful thing about poetry
and lyric is that it's supposed to be
open yeah I wonder if it's also open to
him depending on the day you know
definitely I mean the thing that he
taught me um or his advice to me
was when you're writing a
song look at it the next morning like
just first thing and read it and then
take a walk smoke a joint read it
again go have a fight with your you know
daughter come back read it again get
drunk read it again wait a week read it
again just so that you know from every
state and every position that you the
The Wider the lens is going to be from
an audience perspective you want things
to mean multiple
things uh so there's one line I read
somewhere that he regrets putting in the
song so I got to ask you about it's
pretty edgy it's about uh giving me head
on the unmade bed yeah you think that's
a good line or bad line it's an amazing
line it's one of the best lines in the
song yeah right when he put that song
out obviously he didn't regret it or he
wouldn't have put that lyric in the song
I think what happened was that
eventually word got out either from him
or from somebody else that the song was
about Janice Joplin yes and so at that
point he regretted the
indiscretion so it wasn't that he
regretted how great the line was it was
just you know the Privacy Factor but
then again Leonard's known for rewriting
his lyrics and in his live shows you'll
see a bunch of songs where it's like new
lyrics and he didn't do it because he
didn't like the old lyrics he just did
it
because he could because he's Leonard
and it's like why not have fun with
words the way musicians have fun you
know improvising solos on stage and he
could have changed that line in Chelsea
Hotel after in retrospect and he never
did I remember you well in the Chelsea
Hotel tell you were talking so brave and
so sweet giving me head on the unmade
bed while The Limousines wait in the
street it's so powerful it's a powerful
line it just kind of shocks you well
that's what's so so great about it m
yeah but also
heartbreaking cuz it doesn't last
especially actually to me it has more
meaning once you know it's Janice Joplin
it's like okay these two stars kind of
collided for a time yeah but but what
why is it hot breaking could also be
just beautiful that they had a little
fling yeah everything is beautiful thank
you even the dark stuff what's not
Beautiful Everything Is Beautiful if you
if you look long enough and deeply
enough well were we saying oh uh what do
you think about Hallelujah like what
what do you think about the different
different songs of his why' you choose
chy hotel to perform because I lived
there and it was like it meant something
to me to sing
to sing that song and uh actually when I
put that song out on YouTube that's when
he sent me an email he's like hey do you
want to you want to come over and so
this is how you guys connected no we met
in a rehearsal Studio I ended up
watching their whole rehearsal and
sitting there next to roshi his like
105y old monk which was really great I
remember when I was like shaking his
hand like like so I like it was just me
and roshi on the couch watching Leonard
with his band mhm and he shaking hands
and he grips my hand like this so like
doesn't let it go and he said he looked
in my eyes he said where are you and I
said in the handshake he said
yes wow you passed the test passed the
roshi test and then what's funny was
that the next thing that happened about
five minutes later was Leonard Cohen got
down on his knees and opened up a jar
I'm not kidding you of caviar this is
not a callback well it is in a way a
deep a deep fundamental way he started
feeding the monk caviar yeah and that
healed my montro jazz festival sadness
forever the end do you think there's a
kind of like
weird like there's a sense of humor to
it all somehow like like why does that
happen why why does that
happen why like why stuff like that
happens or that the the Jeff bass speaks
to you why why do we need to know you
believe in that stuff in what stuff that
there's a rhyme to the whole thing
somehow like there a frequency to
which magical things of that nature can
happen um divided about that answer
because I think just things flowing I
don't necess I don't think anything's
kind of like planned out like uh through
time it's like an orchestra playing of
different experiences and circumstances
that are somehow connected I think
everything's connected so yes but
predetermined means like I don't believe
in the predetermined stuff necessarily I
which is different
from whatever your your previous karma
is and karma is a whole other kind of
conversation I don't mean comma as in
like good comma bad Comma just comma
meaning the collection of things you
have acquired over this lifetime or
other lifetimes just whatever that
whatever that is is going to influence
your future MH so well you had a really
interesting trajectory through
life uh maybe I just read it that way
because I've had a lot of stuff happen
to me that's like lucky feels lucky and
sometimes I wonder like huh like this is
weird it does feel like the universe
just kind of throws stuff at you with a
chuckle I don't know not you the
proverbial you one yeah you said you
sometimes watch Classic Movies to
inspire your songwriting and you
mentioned watching taxi
driver I love that
movie and I think you mentioned that you
wrote a love song based on that movie so
Travis ble for people don't know is uh a
taxi driver and uh he's deeply lonely
what do you think about that kind of
loneliness I think that loneliness is a
product of feeling separate from the
world and separate from others and that
the less you experience that separation
the less you'll feel
lonely how often have you felt lonely in
this way separated from the rest of the
world it's less and less every single
year cuz I work very hard at at it
feeling like a part of the world yeah
just meditating and studying scriptures
and don't you think that I mean isn't
there a fundamental loneliness The Human
Experience just in what sense that all
the struggles all the suffering you
experien is really experienced by you
alone is it maybe at the very bottom
it's not it's kind of all the same stuff
you didn't feel alone in 2016
2017 I felt like I lost a piece of
myself that I had given to somebody else
and I feel like people feel that in
romantic um exchanges whether it's
long-term
shortterm you give a piece of yourself
and then if that person dies or you
break up with that person you feel like
you've lost that piece of yourself which
I feel like is very different experience
than if you just are opening yourself
rather than giving a piece of yourself
you're just opening yourself to somebody
or
something so opening is fundamentally
not a lonely
experience no it's a loving experience
and then losing a piece of
yourself can be yeah because you can't
really you can't lose a piece of
yourself if you
are the same self as every other the
self right right so if you see yourself
as together with everybody then there's
no losing yeah yeah yeah it's a
beautiful way to look at it you said
that uh there's something healing about
being in an empty hotel room with no
attachments except your suitcase you
know a lot of people would talk about
hotel rooms
being a fundamentally lonely experience
but you're saying it's it's healing it's
healing yeah cuz I just get to sit there
and not worry about all this stuff that
like this these meaningless attachments
I've got my suitcase with my Necessities
or my three suitcases
sometimes and
uh I can just sit there and meditate and
just be with myself and it's so awesome
and usually like you plan your touring
for like you know you you you kind of
get the business aspect of things taken
care of in advance so you can kind of
just really be flowing day a day on a
tour and it's a great
feeling it's funny because this last
tour that I did we didn't have hotels
every night we had hotels maybe like
once a
week and I I hadn't done that before
usually it's I'm frequently in hotels so
I didn't get that space that I'm really
used to getting you missed them I very
much missed it and had to be very
creative
and I ended up like
going into the back Lounge when everyone
was asleep and like meditating back
there or like before everyone work up um
and I actually like joined there was
like an online Meditation Retreat that
was happening it was like 12 hours a day
of Silent meditations that happens once
a year and I love this this particular
group of people and they knew I was on
tour so they're like just join when you
can and so I was on the tour doing The
Meditation Retreat at the same time it
was so fun it was so fun because I was
like in the back Lounge the bus is like
moving around like this my laptop the
zoom is like and I'm just like sitting
like meditating it was like yeah this is
the shit silent so they they're all
connected through zoom and just doing
Sil 12 12 hours a day yeah that's cool
these particular Retreats that I started
doing it's not straight silent there are
you know silent sits every hour for 50
minutes
and then there's some talks and like
these people that I've been working with
are really cool because they're
integrating um spiral Dynamics into zen
and it's like the coolest combination
what's spiral Dynamics like Ken Wilbur
do you know Ken Wilbur integral theory
yes can you explain a little bit so he I
vaguely know of him because of kind of
this notion
that everything is one like everything
is integrated that every
field has truths and falsehoods and we
should integrate the
truths yeah it's hard to explain how it
applies to this type of meditation
because it's in the the guided parts of
the meditation that this whole like
holonic theory is like brought in about
like transcending and including every
aspect of your
being um because he talks about like
levels of development and like it in
Consciousness and how like this applies
to like every single religion or
non-religion that there are these levels
of development and from all that go all
the way up to Enlightenment and no
matter what you start off with it could
be you know Christianity Buddhism Vidant
doesn't matter like anything then I just
like I like it when everything is and
everyone is taken into account it
doesn't matter where you're coming from
that there is a way to to be
self-realized self-actualized there are
self-actualized beings from all walks of
life with very very different paths
There's No One path I mean in this
particular Retreat I do there's like a
lot of Silent sits and then there's some
guided
meditations um but this I I've tried a
lot of different
Avenues and they're all great so I
wouldn't just say just try this one
thing like I've studied like the
upanishads like with Vidant teaches and
like gone through those texts for months
and months and stayed at monasteries and
like how they break it down makes total
sense to my mind and heart and like my
more importantly than my mind like my
inner knowing like it resonates that's
inner knowing yeah because like your
mind is like the thinking tool like it's
it's not not you you're not your mind
you're not your thoughts you're not your
body you know so it's like just the you
like that knowing that you have that's
kind of when something resonates there
that's usually when you go with
something what was living in a monastery
like it's the best what is what are we
talking about like what it's just an
empty room with like a tiny single bed
and a sheet and a pillow and that's it
that's it you have to eat the same thing
as everyone what's the food like what is
it very plain cheap basic food which is
you know funny for someone like me
because I'm I'm I'm pretty particular
about my diet yeah you brought over like
like 20 different
ingredients yeah so what was the like
day in the life of tall at a
monastery you wake up at 5 a.m. to the
bell and you go and meditate like
constantly
so till bedtime other than two
meals how are you sitting are you in a
group is there other people there and
you're just sitting there well if you're
talking about the Zen Monastery because
I stayed in Zen
Monastery um and I did a thing with that
um the guy was telling you about that
kind of uh the integral Zen thing where
he uses Ken wilber's work in combination
with Zen that that's a little bit
different cuz he does talks we talk
about things
um and that's very separate from the
monaster like the Vidant monasteries
I've stayed at which there's very little
meditation in in terms of sitting
silently we instead we are meditating on
the scriptures like the upanishads and
we're like diving into that what were
the differences the takeaways from the
experiences the the two different the
integral one and
the uh the meditating on the scriptures
they're both
incredibly have been incredibly helpful
to me because the
Vidant
um anytime I go into my head about
something the the the answer is there
based on this
knowledge
and with the Zen Monastery it's like you
just got to put your your butt in the
seat and sit and wait and maybe
something will maybe it won't but just
keep sitting and it's very disciplined
and you go through a lot your body is
purging a lot
there's there's a lot and you don't
necessarily have the answers as to what
is happening and so I think for somebody
like me I need both I need to be in a
place where there's complete uncertainty
but complete discipline and just doing
the regimented thing and then there's
the me that feels very
satisfied from an analytical standpoint
understanding what's happening like what
what is the gross and the subtle body
and the you know like I want to
understand these things about what it is
to be a human so I I like them both
understand what it means to be a human
so that like having that patience and
just sitting with yourself helps you do
that
yes more so like the analysis pot oh so
the an the actual okay got it but
sitting with yourself there's no better
education yeah of like facing every
demon and it's all going to come out and
it's not going to be
pretty but then there's there's things
that happen on the other side of it that
are so profound have you met most of
your
demons I've met the demons that have
come out oh there may be more who knows
yeah okay well to be
continued what uh since since I think I
I I I heard you say that you wrote A
Love Song after Taxi Driver what uh kind
of love songs do you write more
of broken so you're a songwriter first
for people who don't know they might
think you're primarily a basis but
you're they wrong so do you right mostly
brokenheart ones or like hopeful love
songs in love songs about to be in love
songs soon to fall in love songs
um well the last album I put out is
pretty self-explanatory as to what that
is um a lot of pain that one that was
yeah some of it
was storytelling and some of it was real
experience and it's always like a
combination of of things like what I I
serve the song so sometimes you use your
own uh life experience to tell a song
and sometimes you may watch a movie and
part of that script uh merges with your
own experience and that tells the right
story for the point you're trying to
make in the song so it's it varies from
song to song like in terms of how like
what a biographical it is yeah I was at
the end of the taxi driver when um
what's her name Betsy because Travis
becomes a hero she tries to get with him
and he rejects her also
that was
powerful my favorite love songs are the
ones where you're not
sure it's about romantic love or love of
God or love of life or just pure just
love like I was thinking like George
Harrison writes songs like that like
what is
life or like Bob Dylan song that George
Harrison covered if not for you yeah
just grateful grateful for for his love
yeah right right that's kind of like
where what I'm experiencing now and so
who knows what'll end up coming out but
do you've been writing this kind of yeah
I've been writing a little bit I don't
have like an intention of like putting
something out in in in any particular
time frame but I'm just riding and
letting things flow MH and yeah I love
there's like a bunch of like Leonard
Cohen songs to too where you're like
there's so many ways to interpret this
song and there's so many ways I just
love songs that don't aren't like so
like specifically about one thing MH you
know I I really love the song to play it
to Listen to Wonderful Tonight by Eric
Clapton and I thought it was pretty
straightforward yeah and then I had a
conversation with uh Eric
Weinstein who's a mutual friend of ours
and he told me it's not about what I
thought it's about oh yeah what did he
say
um it's a a more complicated story it's
it's actually a man so wonderful
tonight is a story about a man being
just finding his wife beautiful and
appreciating it
throughout but he said it was actually a
man missing his wife he's
imagining uh that she's lost because of
the decisions he's made in his life so
it's pain he had a long beautiful Eric
quinin like explanation of why I love
this have you and Eric played music no
we just hung out and had very long
conversations about everything he's a
bit of a musician you know yeah okay you
picked up the guitar when you were 14
let's go back and one interesting thing
that just jumped out of me is you said
you learned how to practice in your head
because you only had 30 minutes yeah
your parents would only let you practice
for 30 minutes yeah I read somewhere the
call train did the same he was not the
practice part but he was able to play
instruments in his head MH as a way to
like think through different lines
different musical thoughts that kind of
stuff I just um maybe can you tell the
story of that yeah I just grew up in a
environment that was uh focused on
Academia yeah and I fell in love with
guitar and really just wanted the Focus
to be that um so my limit was 30 minutes
a day for I don't even remember how many
times a week might have been every day
or five days a week whatever so your
parents didn't want you to play more
than that um no and so I just learned
how to visualize the fretboard in my
head and I'd practice all day in my head
it's kind of like you know the the The
Queen's Gambit the TV show with Ana
Taylor joy and she just like it on the
ceiling I used to do that with the
fretboard yeah just practice and I
actually recommend it to every musician
because if you're just practicing here
uh you don't know what is more dominant
necessarily is it this or is it your
motor skills if you just take that away
and do it here you know you've got it so
I'm glad that that happened and that I
learned how to do that and in terms of
like learning
fast cuz like I had to like learn how to
well I had to try to absorb a lot of
information in a short amount of time
when I did have the
instrument I kind of
would like do things in bursts like even
in that half an hour I would just go
like play for a couple minutes and then
I'd stop for like a minute and then I'd
do it again and I noticed there was like
a huge difference between the first time
and the second time whereas if I just
kept repeating stuff it would be like
much slower
well what did you do in the in that
minute just hang out just integrate like
yeah I just like my brain it's like my
brain was telling me like just chill out
for a sec that's enough information let
me let me take a second to integrate
that yeah that's what at least what it
felt like to me and the most hilarious
thing happened a couple months ago I
know you're friends with Andrew huberman
so he put out some clip which was a part
of one of his podcasts about learning
and he said that there was some research
done on learning fast and that if you
practice
something for you know a minute or so
and then you let your brain rest for 30
seconds or a minute that in that 30
seconds or a minute your brain does the
repetition 20 to 30 times faster and in
reverse and I was like whoa that's so
cool cuz that's what I used to do when I
was a kid like now there's science that
proves that which is really cool from
you know for musicians to know that that
that's a good way to practice
efficiently CU you know like some
musicians they're like practicing for
six seven eight hours a day I've never
done that I've never practiced more than
an hour a day even now like I've just
just that's my technique and it works
are you uh also practicing in your head
sometimes now I'm not practicing as much
I'm more always writing songs in my head
so that's I like silence that's why I
love being in the empty hotel room and
being alone or you know songs come to me
while I'm showering or walking around
doing the dishes or occasionally when
I'm hanging out with friends or like
Comedians and people just like say shit
and I'll be like that's a cool line just
like jot it down my phone so it's not
always musical it's sometimes lyrical
it's more lyrical than musical now
because it's like for me it's
like there's so much music in the world
if I'm going to write a song I want I
want the song to be about something
interesting and so yeah the words matter
to me yeah and the right word
can can have so much power it's crazy
like we said Leonard Cohen and then
they're often simple the really powerful
ones are simple and like you when you
mentioned Hallelujah you know he wrote
like 80 verses to Hallelujah before he
narrowed it down to like four and it
took him like 15 years to write that
song so some writers will do that like
and then other writers just vomit it out
and it's and it's
beautiful like I've heard that Bob Dylan
or joury Mitchell they're like they're
fast writers they just kind it kind of
comes out that makes me feel so good to
know Leonard Koh wrote so many verses of
that like that that was uh that was so
deliberately crafted yeah extensively
rigorously
crafted he just would spend
months and years and constantly refining
refining you have songs like that for
yourself or you ref for many years it's
song dependent some just flow out and
it's like oh there it is everything's
there and then other songs it's like you
might have started it with music and
there's some words that come out and
then trying to fill in the rest of the
words sometimes it can be like a square
pig in a round hole and other times it's
like oh no I can you know it it it
depends sometimes it becomes like a math
problem and hopefully it doesn't cuz you
just want to say what's right for the
song and usually when you you know write
it all together like the lyric and the
melody and the chords and everything's
kind of developing at once at least for
the first draft that's very very helpful
mhm like sonheim used to write like that
just like he wouldn't move on until like
he he would just go this way whereas for
me it's just like I'll just go with what
seems to be coming naturally and I'll
just let it be what it is and then you
come back and you say okay well what
what what do I have to do to this now
like what's needed just to uh Linger on
the learning
process um what would you recommend for
young musicians and how to get
good what are the different paths a
person can take to understand it deeply
enough to create something special
I think first and foremost understanding
why you are playing music if it's
because you have something that you're
trying to express or that you're just in
love with expression itself with art
itself those are great
reasons
um to to start this journey the why
should be I think the why is really
important because it's a jagged
lifestyle and there's a lot in it and so
if you don't have your purpose if you're
not centered in your purpose then all
that that Jagged lifestyle is probably
going to get to you Jagged it's Jag yeah
it's Jagged it's it's all over the place
it's uncertain it's one thing one moment
and a completely different thing another
moment you never know what's going to
happen and if you thrive on variety
which I love variety um then it's it's
perfect but also every human being needs
a certain amount of certainty in
structure and so it's the certainty can
come from your inner knowing knowing
that you're doing exactly what you want
to be doing and knowing what your
purpose is in in doing it in this
expression otherwise you're just kind of
like a leaf blowing in the
wind like in the early days touring just
playing clubs seems like tough yeah it's
a lot yeah it's a lot of of like the
physical labor aspect of it is really
hard playing on stage to to two people
or 2,000 or 20,000 that doesn't make a
difference I mean it makes a difference
to the ticket sales which informs how
what level of uh luxury you might have
on the road or not but other than that
it's just people there listening to
music the music doesn't
change does it make it tougher when it's
two people versus 200 no so even if
nobody recognizes whatever the thing
you're doing no because the the idea is
to be doing like having a great
conversation on
stage the audience can come and go yeah
I mean I I always like at like there's
certain points in shows where I'm I'm
just like I consciously I'm like oh yes
there's an audience over there cuz I'm
so like wrapped up in whatever's
happening on stage you forget yourself
well maybe I'm remembering myself oh wow
damn DN call back somehow feels like
one okay uh you think every instrument
is its own journey is you play guitar
you play bass you sing just the the
Mastery of an instrument or let's avoid
the word Mastery the understanding of an
instrument is its own thing or they
somehow
like physical manifestations of the same
thing it's both you know like every
instrument has its strength
Beauty
limitations range like possible range
that can you know be extended to some
degree or another depending on who you
are like trumpet or something you know
like certain people can hit higher notes
than others blah blah blah but um that
being said we're all playing the same 12
or 24 or however you divide the octave
that many notes you know we're all
playing the same notes so in that sense
it's all the same thing it's just music
music or better yet it's just art or
expression but yeah every instrument has
you know you got to go through the the
physical the physical aspect of it the
motor skills and all of that and
hopefully you get through that really
quickly so you can get to the
expression quickly because if you get
stuck in just that first phase that's be
really boring yeah but that's a that's a
pretty long phase the
technical the the the technical skill
required to
really play an instrument for some
people it's a long thing and some people
it's short it very very much varies it
might have to do with like how you
learn um and getting to know like your
strengths in learning like more oral or
more like is it more like K like what's
what's your strength and playing off of
those strengths so for me like it was
like like I was saying earlier it was
just an intuitive thing that I knew I
can feel when my brain is full like that
it needs processing time and so I listen
to that I don't push past it uh even if
it's like one minute and I do something
I'm like
okay silence and then I come back and it
and and I trust that it's going to be
there and it is there so just trusting
yourself I think is really important
trusting that you know you better than
anybody else is going to know you so
that's the kind of thing with with
teachers that can be either really
really helpful and great or really not
great like I'm primarily self-taught
I've had amazing mentors of all walks of
life and I think I'm unbelievably
blessed that my mentors are some of my
favorite musicians on Earth whether it's
Leonard Cohen or Jeff Beck or Wayne
shorter whoever these people are like
they are my favorite musicians so not
everyone has that opportunity but what
the opportunity that we have now that I
didn't have when I was starting is that
everything's on YouTube like every
interview with every genius like you you
don't need to necessarily have these
people in person know I mean it and and
then I'll say to that yes and no I I
agree with myself and then I don't agree
with myself and and the reason is I do
believe that there is something that
happens when you're in person with a
master um in some cases that there is
something transferred that is not
intellectual it's not spoken there
something else that happens that can
happen and that I've experienced and um
I really value that and I think that
applies to specific disciplines and also
generally like I've been around Olympic
gold
medalists just to hang out with them for
several days and there's something
there's something about greatness
there's a way about them that kind of uh
permeates the space around them you kind
of learn something from it even if you
don't practice that particular
discipline yeah there's something to it
if you're if you're able to see it I
also like what you said about the
playing stuff in your
head that
it forces you to not be um lost in the
in the physical learning of the
instrument I think that's one of the
things
I probably regret a little bit so I play
both piano and guitar and I've become
quite over the years technically
proficient at the instruments but I
think my mind is underdeveloped because
of
that meaning like I can't really
like
um I can feel the music when it's
created but I can't create out of the
feeling I haven't practiced the U
project projecting the feeling onto the
music you know what I mean and I'm not
like a musician but I'm just it it's
it's a different muscle that I think is
if you really want to create beautiful
things you have
to the creation happens here not with
your hand I think it's more here or what
whichever it's some part of the body but
it's not with your fingers yeah cuz I
think the fingers is more this sure and
then yes it's here yeah right and it's
just nice that you said that cuz it it
um it's probably really it's really good
advice if you want to create yeah
slowing down is really great too what do
you mean slowing down slowing everything
down it could be you know I can play
something really fast but I may want to
like practice
it yeah
[Music]
like go slow as possible cuz there's all
these micro movements
and that are happening that if you just
go like you you can't pay as close
attention to the exact tone that you're
pulling from each note and there's a lot
to pay attention to to how my fingers
are touching the string here like I can
change my tone A Million Ways just by
the direction of this finger and same
with how this lands and how hard I'm
attacking the string and with what
intention am I hitting the string
emotionally physically and so even if
you can go BL play that so slow see how
locked into a pocket you can be see how
you like feel every aspect of that CU
then when it gets sped up is still there
with you mhm yeah that's brilliant it's
kind of like the transcended and
included thing that Ken wber talks about
like it's like and I guess that's what
meditation can do for you is to like
really listen to your like observe every
aspect of your body the breath and all
this here you're observing every element
like every Super detail element of
playing a single note yeah that's cool
that if you speed it up it's still there
with you it is I I yeah it is cuz I hear
there are certain people like they play
really fast but I don't hear the
fullness of tone always and it's like
well it's probably because maybe they
didn't maybe it's because they didn't
slow it down and really sit with each
note and let it like resonate through
their whole being MH it's spiritual it's
like a spiritual expression it's not
just like you know it's not it's not a
sport a lot of people treat music like a
sport yeah since starting to learn more
like Steve vongh versus Jimmy
Hendrick I I would spend a quite a long
time on single notes of just bending
just like just listening to what you can
do with bends bending just thinking like
people like BB King and all these Blues
musicians like spend a career just
making a a single note cry yeah there's
like an art form to that yeah and I
think you putting it like taking it
really slow which I never really thought
of as really good idea like really slow
it down it's the same with like sitting
with your own emotions it's like we when
emotions are overwhelming to us we get
real busy we move real fast because it's
like we don't want to feel our feelings
and those are the moments to slow
yourself down and observe it anger
jealousy and just be with and just be
with it be like be cool with it like
love it love the anger it's all
beautiful can you educate me on the
difference between bass bass and bass
okay well one is a fish at least I
pronounced it correctly that's
good uh it's all about the can you
pronounce my my name tall wow
most people say tow or tall you said
tall who says tall like so many people
in the South maybe tall I don't know but
the fact that
you you get extra points tall I get I
didn't know this was a game am I winning
y I like
winning how do you play the bass uh
what's the difference between finger
style and slap slap is like this finger
Styles like this you ever ever played
bass with a pick yeah sometimes I'm not
accusing you of anything no accusation
taken I don't know if these are
sensitive topics like if that would be
pretty hilarious if I was sensitive
about Bas techniques but like not about
like love it just looks so cool to like
slap it and I don't understand what
that's about like that thumb thing that
yeah I slap less um a lot less almost
never actually um it has a very
distinctive sound and does a very
distinctive thing to a song mhm that
um is not something I hear needed very
often in music today yeah um but in
certain
Styles like Funk it sounds awesome and
it makes sense it was something that was
a bit overused at one
point um for instance like my mentor
Anthony Jackson he refused to slap like
he actually said if you want me to slap
I'll leave this gig mhm so I'm not like
that see that's why I said sensitive see
I was like reading into it because he
was he's sensitive about I was feeling
the spiritual energy of the sensitivity
of the Anthony Jackson and then I mean
I'm playing electric bass so generally
speaking you don't particularly want to
hear electric bass on Straight Ahead
Jazz anyway you want to hear an upright
Bass But if I was to play jazz on
electric base I might even kind of like
palm palm mute you know like I instead
of going like I might
go to
very anything to kind of make the the
notes um shorter and less resonant and
like kind of Fade Away quick because the
upright does that naturally and I have
like a different Basse like a hollow
body Harmony that sounds closer to an
upright that I'll use um in in certain
like on my song Under the Sun that I put
out that was on a Harmony base and it
has like kind of an upright acous stick
kind of tone to it but with more
sustain and uh is jazz fusion the the
style where you have like an electric
base can you add your C with again you
can you can have both you can have both
on you can have either on anything
there's no like real rules now I've
heard you say something interesting
which is uh well a lot of things you say
is interesting but just one thing just
one that and it's what time you're
leaving what time was that again 3
minutes that it's may be easier
sometimes to define a musical genre by
the don'ts than the than the
dos the don'ts than the
do uh what are the don'ts of jazz and
rock what are the don'ts of jazz fusion
what are the don'ts in any domain of
Life what are the don'ts the don'ts is
just to to please leave your fear at the
door door mhm and your does is to be
open to
anything and open your ears like respond
to what's happening
now I think that quote you're talking
about might have been more about an an
individual musician's unique sound
because everyone has their sound if
they've developed their voice and
they've listened to their own aesthetic
preference
of which everyone is slightly different
everyone has slightly different likes
and dislikes um then you'll have a
unique sound on your instrument and your
unique sound is defined more by the
choices you make rather than I mean it's
it's equally as defined by the choices
you make and the choices you don't make
I mean it's the it's the flip side of
the same coin really yeah there's
certain musicans you can just tell it's
them just you hear a few notes and
you're like okay it's them tone
sometimes it's tone sometimes it's the
way they put they play Rhythm yeah it
might that quote you're talking about
might have even had to do with someone's
like real limitations on an instrument
that then that would define their sound
as the things that they can't like
actually can't do versus like what
you're choosing to do versus not
choosing to do which is that like flip
side of the same coin thing how many
fingers you play
with it seems like a lot of the greatest
musicians aren't
technically like
perfect the the imperfections is the
thing that makes them unique and where a
lot of the creativity comes from I mean
hrx Hendrick said a lot of those things
the way he put like a thumb over the top
well his hands were huge there was no
other place for the thumb to go and it
was great that he could reach you know
the the E string and that was an
advantage and he was a lefty playing a
right anded guitar yeah flipped I guess
yeah that's weird um that probably
doesn't have much of an effect maybe a
spiritual one I don't know well actually
flipping a guitar is is is different it
does you know bring out something
different in you because I've done it
like flipped in it's like oh wow yeah
really it's really different I remember
talking to my like osteopath about like
you know because there's so much weight
on this shoulder while I'm playing all
the time and and they were saying like
well just after shows just literally
just turn it upside down and do the
exact same thing in the opposite way
it'll like even out your body and I was
like it's good advice have you actually
tried it mhm okay all right I'll write
that
down uh all right well do you know a guy
named Davey 504 I've heard of him I've
recently learned of him he's a YouTuber
and a bass player he's amazing he
combines memes and also just these
brilliant bass compositions and says
slap like a lot he's big into slapping
that's that's how that's he's the one
that kind of made me realize this is a
thing okay and he also said that you're
one of the best if not the best basist
in the world there was a bunch of his
fans that wrode in and he analyzed the
Jeff Beck thing that we watched at
Crossroads is one of the greatest solos
ever Bas solos ever so shout out to him
what does that make you feel like you're
the greatest of all time CH chocolate
cookies chocolate is that your favorite
I like macadamia nut like if I if you
really want to get into it with like
white chocolate yeah that's a rare one
for people to say is the favorite
chocolate chip is just like easy you can
kind of get them anywhere yeah last
thing you want to be is easy in this
world you want to be easy you said that
I love rock and roll quote I love folk I
love jazz I love Indian classical music
I really love all kinds of music as long
as it's authentic and from the heart so
when you play Rock versus Jazz you
played all kinds of music uh what's the
difference technically
musically spiritually for you well
there's no spiritual difference okay all
right cross that off the list
but
uh more musically yeah it's kind of like
what was saying earlier it's like
each
genre has its language of
what makes it that
genre um and th that would be a good
thing to say it's defined by the you
know the dos and don'ts um because yeah
it's
like I'm trying to
think basically put the song first and I
think of the song as the melody the
lyrics and then the Harmony and
obviously the groove so the song goes
before the genre in a sense each each
song is like its own thing they're both
things that are held in my mind it's
like okay genre and then song which is
comprised of those basic you know
elements
um and I tend to kind kind of prioritize
lyric because somebody is trying to
express something over music and so that
uh the lyric is very very
important and so then the choices come
from there it's like okay within the
genre of X um this is the typical
language and then how do I best serve
this this lyric and
then where else can I pull from that
might not be in these two bags that
would put a little twist on it mhm so
those are all the kinds of things I
might be thinking about um but I don't
like twists for the sake of twists
either I like twists
because I want to hear something that
might be fresh MH but when someone does
something just to be hip it's annoying
to me you I think you can hear the
difference it's like when people like
they write in odd time signatures or
like they write all these riffs just
because they can just because they have
the chops to do it or they know how to
play in 1116 and whatever but it's like
but if it's not actually creating a
piece of music that's going to move
somebody then why are you doing it and
so I think a lot of the questions I'm
asking myself when I'm approaching a
song are mainly
philosophical and
aesthetic so you like to stand in the
edge of the cliff not for the thrill of
it but because that's where you find
something new yeah potentially yeah and
it's thrilling but you're not doing it
just for the thrill I'm not doing it for
the thrill it just happens to be
thrilling all right because you can
always reel it back
in can you though yeah you can no you
can like do a totally like disciplined
like I can go into a session and okay my
favorite thing about going into a
session with with musicians that I adore
is that we don't hear the demo because
if you hear a demo you're hearing what
the producer or songwriter have already
imagined that every instrument is
playing and then it's like well I've
already heard what you want now my mind
is part of my mind is focused on what I
already know you want what the
destination is going to be why did you
bring me in here I want to not hear it I
just want you to set at a piano and sing
the song with the I want to hear the
chords and the lyric and or sit in
acoustic to play it and then let's all
go in the room and then take One MH I
would say 80% of the time take one has
the most gold and there might be like a
mistake or two or someone forgot to go
to the bsection and you might want to
like punch that in so that you're
hitting the right cord but all the magic
is in that take and then sometimes it
happens where it's like you go it's like
we're rehearsing and take one 2 3 four
and then you're like thinking about it
too much and then you go and you have a
dinner and you come back and the next
take one after dinner is the one like
it's usually after there's some sort of
a break that but but OB obviously
there's exceptions to that rule
sometimes it take two and three yeah you
said uh you said that this is something
that surprised you about recording with
Prince is that he would just so much of
it would be take one so quick it would
just move so quickly yeah well with that
particular album that we made together
it's called Welcome to America he called
me up and asked me he said I want to
make a band with you I'm like really
inspired by what you're doing with Jeff
Beck I want to make a trio do you like
the drum rolls of Jack T Janette was
like his first question to me I'm like
well yeah who doesn't who doesn't like
Jack D Janette like one of the greatest
of all time and he's like well you know
uh sounds like because we had a
discussion about drummy sound sounds
like you're you're kind of particular
about drummers so why don't you find us
the drummer and I'll trust you to find
the drummer you can audition some people
send me some recordings and maybe your
two favorites and I'll pick pick out of
the two or something so I did that went
on a journey found a couple guys he
picked the one we went in and
um he basically
just would be like okay so the a section
is going to go like this and then the B
section I think we're going to go to uh
G and du and then the bridge I might go
to be flat but maybe I'll hold off and
okay let's go one two three four and
then we recorded to tape there was no
punch he did not want me to punch
anything like it was like and there was
one song called um same page different
book mhm and and he like talked through
it just like he did and then he had me
soloing between each phrase like little
fills like I I didn't know that that was
going to come up and that and he loved
that he loved that to have me on the
edge of my seat mhm like falling off the
cliff that was my first like real like
falling off a cliff moment from somebody
else holding me at the edge of the cliff
you know what I mean um now I just do it
on my own because it's so it's so fun
and makes sense it's it's the best thing
for the music when you say punch the
tape is that that when you actually
record it like if you record to tape and
there's like say like you hit a bum note
like to to punch in means to like fix
that note like re-record over that one
little area and and punch that note in
he didn't want that he like he's like
all my favorite records just like
whatever happened happened that's that
moment in time let's make a new moment
in time it's great nobody makes records
like that
anymore everyone wants to like you know
edit and edit and re-record and this and
that and unfortunately with a lot of
music and I'm not saying all music cuz
there's plenty of great music coming out
but the there's the danger of it being
flat MH because every little
imperfection
is is digitally removed well that's one
of the promising things about AI is
because it can be so perfect that the
thing will actually come back to and
value about music is the imperfections
that humans can create yeah there'll be
a greater valuation of imperfections
yeah I mean you can kind of program
imperfections too yeah sure that's
that's also very sad but then you get
closer and closer to what it means to be
human and maybe there'll be AIS Among Us
they'll be human flawed like the rest of
us mortal and silly at
times another big
sigh uh is it fair to say that you're
very melodic on bass like you there's um
you make the bass sink more than people
normally do is that a compliment yes I
think so thank
you moving on to the next question I
mean as by way of understanding it's
just there's there's something about the
way you play bass that just kind of
pulls you in the way when you listen to
somebody play a guitar like a guitar
solo the thing I love about Jeff Beck is
that he played the guitar like a singer
MH and I think that the way that Wayne
Sher played his saxophone like a
singer and I think everyone every
musician aspires to just sound like a
singer do he make it sing let me ask you
about just come back to Hendrick cuz you
said that you had three CDs Jimmy
Hendrick Herby Hancock and Rage Against
the Machine first of all great
combination I'm a big rage fan it's so
funny cuz like when I listen to some of
the music that I create like my solo
music I'm like I could see how this is a
combination of hubby Hancock rage
against the machine and Jimmy
HRI like I I hear the influences funny
just from your musician perspective what
what's interesting to you about what
really stands out to you about
Hendrick I just would love to
hear like a real professional musician's
opinion of
Hendrick I love that he is two voices
combined into one voice so it's like
there is his voice on on the guitar and
there is his his singing voice and there
is the combination of the two that make
one
voice and of course the third element is
his songwriting and all of this have
have this beautiful chemistry and all
work geniusly perfectly together and
there's nothing like it and you know he
he always beat himself up about being a
singer and like he didn't like his voice
but it's like my favorite singers are
the singers that don't sound like
singers Bob Dylan Bob Dylan you like Bob
Dylan I love Bob Dylan you love his
voice too I love his voice can you
explain your that your love affair with
Bob Dylan's voice he's Express
expressing his lyrics There's it's just
pure expression exactly what he means I
feel everything that he's saying with
100%
authenticity yeah that's what I want to
hear from a singer I don't care how many
runs you can do and like I want to
believe what you're
saying l a cone is that
M do countless like Neil Young I mean
that there's so many musicians I love
Elliot Smith for that
reason let me ask you about mentorship
you said uh teachers and mentors you had
mentors what's a good Mentor for you
harsh or supportive supportive
supportive you seen Whiplash the movie
so that guy somebody screaming at you
like kicking you off the cliff not
necessary I feel like anybody that's
truly passionate about something that
they want to be gr out or a master of or
this and that they've already got that
person inside their own head you you
don't need somebody else to do that for
you I think you need love acceptance
guidance support
time
um advice if you ask for it just a space
just a nice open space all my mentors
were just that for me they didn't tell
me to do anything they they don't care
like because they're not they why do
they need to be invested in where I'm
going only I know where I'm going so for
some mentor to come and be like this is
what you need to be doing and practice
this it's like but why what if that's
not my path that might be your path so
I'm not really again otherwise it feels
like a sport like who can run the
fastest race and it's like well okay
well I get that for that for sport maybe
it makes sense to have someone a bit
more hardcore but still like I would say
athletes have the same mentality they've
got they've got that in them already too
like so I think more like of a strategic
approach to mentorship works really well
and mainly just
have having an open space and just being
available to
someone and kind of show that you they
see the special in you and they give you
the room to develop that special
whatever exactly cuz if you do have that
harsh critic inside you it's like it is
nice to have somebody that isn't like
your family or someone that's not
obligated any way that just sees your
talent and they're like yeah I dig what
you're doing keep doing
it yeah it's funny that that's not
always easy to come by do you have any
mentors yeah I've had a few recently but
for most of my life people didn't
really you know I I'm very much like
that too like somebody to pet me on the
back and say like like see something in
you of
value U yeah I didn't really have
that so do you wish you did yeah yeah
but maybe the wishing that I did is the
thing that made me who I am not having
it the longing for that maybe that's the
thing that um helped me
develop a constant sense of longing
which I
think it's is a is a way of because I
have that engine in me it really allows
me to deeply appreciate every single
moment every single everything that's
given to me so like just a Eternal
gratitude so you never know which the
which are the bad part parts and the
good parts so if you remove one thing it
might
be it uh the whole thing might
collaps I suppose I'm grateful for the
whole
thing that one note you screwed up so
many years ago that might have been
essential what about because you do
jiujitsu yes so like do you are you I
don't my dad does my dad's super into it
I love my dad he's the coolest um
but no I don't do it he's a he's a blue
belt right now nice nice you ever been
on the mat with him like not yet but I
plan on it you should do it what belt
are you black belt sick do you want to
go on yeah right you got the shitalking
part of you just it down you have to do
the the
technique um but like for that like for
instance like do
you do you need a harsh Mentor or teach
teacher or yeah but you like you said it
really beautifully like there's a to to
me I agree there's a difference between
Sport and art yeah they overlap there's
you know for sure but there's something
about sport where like Perfection is
actually like Perfection Perfection is
really the thing you really want to get
to the technical Perfection with art it
feels like technical Perfection
is um is almost a way to get lost on the
path to wherever something unique so um
but yeah with with sport I
definitely and one of the kind of
athletes that loves to have like a
dictatorial
coach yeah somebody that like helps me
really push myself to the Limit but
you're the one that's kind of dictating
how hard you're getting pushed in a way
like you're choosing your Mentor like
that Whiplash video is like he didn't
ask for that you know in a way he might
have well maybe maybe subconsciously I
mean there is it's a movie
so next you're going to tell me they're
just actors I
mean and but you know yeah how do we
choose things you know you don't always
choose but you you kind of maybe
subconsciously
choose and and some of it like some of
the great Olympic athletes I've
interacted with their parents for many
years would forc them to go to practice
until they discovered the beauty of the
thing that they were doing and then they
loved it yeah so like which point does
uh something that looks like abuse
become like a gift you know that's
weird it's all very weird but for
you support and space to discover the
thing The Voice the music within you
that's my personal choice because I'm
very familiar with the inner critic and
I can bring her out at any point I don't
need help with that you know oh so you
do have she call she was on overdrive
that's why now I'm I had to work on that
so
much yeah you have a really happy way
about you right now thanks the very
Zen can I ask you about Bruce
Springsteen yeah sure a lot of songs of
his I listen to make me feel this
Melancholy feeling it's not just Bruce
Springsteen but Bruce does a
lot what is that about all songs that
arous a kind of sad feeling or longing
feeling or feeling what is that what is
that about us humans on the receiving
end of the
music frequencies each frequency does
elicit a different kind of
emotional response that's that is real
scien you mean like on the physics
aspect yeah yeah physical level so there
is that um combined with the right kind
of lyric and the right kind of Melody of
the right kind of cord will elicit the
very particular kind of emotion and it
is scientific it can be analyzed I don't
particularly want to analyze it because
I don't want to approach things with
that um in advance I don't want it to
inform where I'm going I I like the
feeling to Lead Me naturally to where
I'm writing but yeah
um there's a real chemical element to
that and then also like I was saying
like the lyric what it means to
you which poetry is supposed to mean
something to everybody like different
it's not supposed to mean one thing like
you can't analyze and be like this is
what this poet meant yeah and and like
we were talking about with Leonard
earlier it's like the broader you can
leave a lyric the better you can appeal
to people in so many different ways and
even to the songwriter like I'll sing
some of my songs from five years ago and
I'll be like H I didn't even think that
it could have mean meant that but I
guess it does that's funny I like just
giggle on stage suddenly a lyric will
hit me differently from with from a
different new experience or something
Have you ever cried listening to a song
of
course weep like a baby in a bathtub
which um who's a regular go-to then
Leonard Leonard yeah Hallelujah is is a
song that makes consistently makes me
feel something it's holy his work is
Holy and if you were in his
presence I
guess there was a lot to that to that
being what advice would you give to
Young Folks on how to have a life that
can be proud
of just tackle the demons as early as
possible where whether it's through your
Rod or through meditation or through
whatever it
means Diaries what whatever it is just
uh walk walk towards the things that are
scary because if you
don't they'll just expand they become
bigger if you avoid if you avoid the
demons they become
bigger what does that mean for you today
are you still missing Jeff I'll always
miss Jeff
but I don't feel like a piece of me is
missing um and same with Leonard
it's that I did give them a piece of
myself and maybe they gave me a piece of
them that I hold with me and I cherish
but it doesn't feel like I'm less than
or they're less than or anything's less
than
just you learn to appreciate the
impermanence of everything in
life um impermanence of everything
except for Consciousness I guess you
could say is the only thing that is
permanent
so everything else you learn to
appreciate that impermanence because the
limited amount of of time it like in
this particular body is it's enticing
kind of gives you like a time limit
which is cool I like that so you've come
to accept your own yeah like it's cool
that I'm like okay I got this amount of
maybe this amount of time who knows but
could end today but if I was yeah if I
if I died today I'd be really happy with
my life okay it's not like I'm like oh I
missed out on this and that so you
really want to make sure that every day
could be your last day and you're happy
with that I've always lived that way
yeah I felt this way since I was in my
early 20s i' be like yeah I could die
today sure I don't want to die I have no
reason to die but if I did I know that I
you know put my everything all my effort
and all my passion and all my love into
whatever I've already done so if my
time's up then my time's
up what role does Love play in this
whole thing in The Human Condition well
love is everything I mean if you define
love if you're talking about love as in
romantic love or paternal or maternal
love or if you're talking about love as
in you know in the in an Eastern
tradition like Vidant for instance love
is consciousness love is everything
that's the only permanent thing yeah or
if you were to go come from a Zen or
like a Buddhist perspective they would
say nothingness like emptiness
is versus fullness well those guys are
really obsessed with of the whole
suffering
thing and letting go of it
yeah
well I was wondering if you would do me
the honor of playing a
song do you want a suffering song or a
suffering
song I think I would love a suffering
song
cool do you want to sound check and make
sure I'm
not
[Music]
sound
check one
two yeah it sounds really good this one
D all right count me off
yeah I don't know how to count somebody
off where do I start at nine or three
two one yeah you got it one two one
two
I
call out to the
ocean my
tears fall into the
sea for the
vows that have been
broken across the dunes
of time
repeatedly like a
night in battered
armor I
Lay My Sword upon the
ground cuz I can keep fighting these
same battles
[Music]
more has been lost than has been
found it's
hard to feel things
changing after
all's been
said and
[Music]
done we spare and our lives
[Music]
rearranging
everything under the
[Music]
sun I walk the same road to work each
Monday every
step tears at my
heel
I sleep not to
dream but to forget on
Sunday the
spoke just turning with the
weed it's
hard to feel than
changing after
all been said and
[Music]
done we
spare Our Lives
[Music]
rearranging Under the
Sun reaching for the sky feet buried in
the
ground
looking for some way out of the circle
spin
around my eyes on the
horizon seeking out the
light but don't let me be lost
forever in the
night
cuz it's
hard to feel things
changing after
all been
said and
[Music]
done we
spend our lives
[Music]
rearranging
[Music]
everything under the
sun Under the
[Music]
Sun you're amazing that was amazing tall
thank you so
much
try try turning it to
11 it's quite loud can you see if on the
headphones it's like distorting can you
play something no
[Music]
no you're such a
professional I I I should produce your
next record
please
[Music]
Love Don't rescue
[Music]
me I've got nowhere better I want to
be I want to be held but not be Holden
[Music]
standing my ground with one eye
[Music]
open this
fight doesn't quite
[Music]
a
love I thought you were
afraid but but now I'm on the hook for
all you've given
me doesn't matter what I say or think or
do you see what you see with the lens
you're looking
through this
fight keeps me tied to the worst in me
and it's killing
me killing
[Music]
me
love I'm losing in my
voice you led me to
believe I had a
choice but let's
pause retract our
CLA you could take my side while I take
[Music]
yours this
fight keeps me TI to the worst in
me and it's killing
[Music]
me killing
[Music]
me
[Music]
love come rescue
me I've got
nowhere better I want to
be
this
fight keeps me tied to the wor in
me and it's killing
[Music]
me killing
[Laughter]
me killing me
[Music]
killing
[Music]
me uh well there's nowhere else I'd
rather be right
now T thank you the for this thank you
for the private com you're amazing you
really are amazing and it was a pleasure
to meet you and really a pleasure to
talk to you today do I get a private
concert now if you playing chess with
yourself we were out of time so we got
to
go thanks for listening to this
conversation with tall Wilkenfeld to
support this podcast please check out
our sponsors in the description and now
let me leave you with some words from
Maya Ang jelou music was my refuge I
could crawl into the spaces between the
notes and curl my back to
loneliness thank you for listening and
hope to see you next
time