Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
Elon Musk his fourth time on this The
Lex fredman
podcast I thought you were going to
finish
it it's one of the greatest themes in
all film history
yeah that's great so I was just thinking
about the Roman Empire as one
does there's that whole meme uh
where all guys are thinking about the
Roman Empire at least once a day and
half the population is confused whether
it's true or not but more seriously
thinking about the wars going on in the
world today and as you know uh war and
military conquest has been a big part of
uh Roman society and culture and it I
think has been a big part of most
Empires and dynasties throughout human
history so yeah they usually uh came as
a result of Conquest I mean there's some
like the orer Hungarian Empire where
there was just a lot of sort of clever
marriages um but fundamentally there's
an engine of conquest and they celebrate
excellence in Warfare many of the
leaders were excellent generals yeah
that kind of thing so big picture
question grock approved I asked this is
a good question to ask tested grock
approved uh at least on fun mode
uh uh to what degree do you think war is
part of human nature versus a
consequence of uh how human societies
are structured I asked this
as you have somehow controversially been
a proponent of peace I I'm generally
proponent of peace I mean ignorance is
perhaps in my view the Real Enemy to be
countered that's the real hard part not
you know fighting other
humans um but all All Creatures fight I
mean the the jungle is a you look at the
people think of of this nature as
perhaps some sort of peaceful thing but
in fact it is not there's some quite
funny w w hog thing where he's like in
the jungle like saying that it's like
basically just murder and death in every
direction mhm I mean the the the plants
animals in the jungle are constantly
trying to killing each other every
single day every minute so it's not like
uh you know we're unusual in that
respect well this there's a relevant
question here whether with greater
intelligence uh comes greater control
over these base instincts for
violence yes we have much more an
ability to control our um limpic
Instinct for violence than say a
chimpanzee and in fact if if if one
looks at say chimpanzee Society it is
not friendly I mean the bonovas are an
exception um but chimpanze Society
is uh filled with violence and it's
quite quite horrific frankly that that's
that's Olympic system in action like you
don't want to be on the wrong side of a
chimpanze he'll eat your face off and
tear your nuts off yeah basically
there's no limits or ethics or uh the
Romans said just War there's no just war
in the chimpanzee societies is is worn
and and Domin is by any means necessary
yeah chenzi Society is a Like A
Primitive version of human society um
it's they're not like peac loving
basically um at all um there there's
extreme violence um and then once in a
while some some somebody who's watched
too many Disney movies decides to raise
a chimpanzee as a pet um and then that
eats their face or if they're nuts off
or Che their fingers off that kind of
thing yeah it's happened several times
uh ripping your nuts off is an
interesting strategy
for interaction some it's happened to
people it's un unfortunate like that's I
guess a one way to ensure that the other
chump doesn't like you know contribute
to the gene pool well from a martial
arts perspective it's a fascinating
strategy the
nrer I wonder which of the martial arts
teaches that I think it's safe to say if
somebody's got your nuts in their head
and as the option rubing the wolf you
will be amenable to uh whatever they
want yeah to say so like I said somehow
controversially you've been an uh
proponent of Peace on on Twitter on X
yeah so let me ask you about the war is
going on today and to see what the path
to peace could be how do you hope the
current war in Israel and Gaza comes to
an end uh what path do you see that can
minimize human suffering in the long
term in that part of the world well I
think that that part of the world is is
definitely like if you look up the there
is no easy answer in the dictionary
it'll be that like the picture of uh the
Middle East um in Israel especially so
there is no easy
answer
um what my this strictly my opinion of
you know is that
uh the the goal of Hamas was to provoke
an overreaction from Israel um they
obviously did not expect to uh you know
have a military Victory um but they they
expect they really wanted
to commit the worst atrocities that they
could in order to provoke the the most
aggressive response possible from Israel
um and then leverage that aggressive
response to um rally Muslims worldwide
uh for the course of uh Gaza and
Palestine which they have succeeded in
doing um so the this the the
counterintuitive thing here I think that
the the thing that I think should be
done even though it is very difficult uh
is that um I I would recommend that
Israel engage in the most cons
conspicuous acts of kindness possible
every everything that is the actual
thing that would th the goal ofas so in
some sense the degree that makes sense
in geopolitics turn the other cheek
implemented it's not exactly turn the
other cheek um because I do think that
there's
um you know I think it is appropriate
for Israel
to find the Hamas members and you know
um either either kill them or
incarcerate them um like something
something has to be done because they're
just going to keep keep keep coming
otherwise um
but uh in addition to that they need to
do whatever they can um there's some
talk of uh establishing for example a
Mobile hospital I'd recommend doing that
um just making sure that uh you know
there's food water uh medical
Necessities
um and and just be over the top about it
and be very transparent so it's so that
can't people can't claim it's a trick
like just put wave cam on the thing you
know old
24/7 deploy acts of
kindness yeah conspicuous acts of
kindness that that with that are
unequivocal meaning they can't be
somehow because hos will then their
response will be oh it's a trick
therefore you have to counter how how is
it not a trick this ultimately fights
the broader force of hatred in the in
the region yes and I'm not sure who said
it it's an apocryphal saying but an eye
for the for an eye makes everyone blind
now now that neck of the woods they
really believe in the whole eye for ey
thing
um but I me you really have if if you're
not going to just
outright commit genocide like against an
entire people which obviously would not
be acceptable to to to really shouldn't
be acceptable to anyone um then you're
you're going to leave basically a lot of
people alive who subsequently you know
hate Israel so really the question is
like how for for every Hamas member that
you kill how many did you create mhm and
if you create more than you killed
you've not succeeded that's the you know
the real situation there um and it's
safe to say that if you know
um if you know if if you kill somebody's
child in
Gaza you you you've made at least a few
uh Hamas members who will die
just just to kill an
Israeli that's the situation
so but but I mean this is one of the
most contentious subjects one could
possibly discuss but but I I think if if
the if the goal ultimate is some sort of
long-term peace one has to be look at
this from standpoint of over time are
there more or fewer um terrorists being
created let me just uh Linger on war
yeah well War it's safe to say Wars
always existed and always will exist
always will exist always has always has
existed and always will exist I hope not
you think it always always there will
always be
War this question of just how much war
and and um you know what you know
there's there's sort of the scope and
scale of War but to to imagine that
there would not be any war in the future
I think would be very unlikely outcome
yeah you talked about the culture series
there's war even there yes there giant
War the first book starts off with a
gigantic Galactic War where trillions
die trillions but it still nevertheless
protects these pockets of of
flourishing some somehow you can have
Galactic war and still have pockets of
flourishing yeah I mean it's I guess if
we are able to one day expand to you
know full the Galaxy or whatever there
will be a galactic War at some point ah
the scale I mean the scale of War has
been increasing increasing increasing
it's like a race between the scale of
suffering and the scale of flourishing
yes a lot of people seem to be using
this tragedy to beat the drums of war
and feed the military industrial complex
do you worry about
this the people who
are rooting for escalation and how can
it be stopped one of the things that
does concern me is that there are very
few people live today who actually
viscerally understand the horrors of War
at least in the US I mean obviously the
people in on the front lines in Ukraine
and Russia who understand just how
terrible war is um but how many people
in the west understand it um in my
grandfather was in World War II uh he
was severely traumatized um mean he was
there I think in for almost six years in
the you in East North Africa and Italy
uh all his friends were killed uh in
front of him and uh he would have died
too um except they randomly gave some I
guess IQ tests or something and uh he
scored very high um now he was not an
officer he was a I think a Corporal or a
sergeant or something like that um
because he didn't finish High School um
he had to drop out of high school
because his his his dad died and he had
to work to support his um siblings um so
because he didn't graduate high school
he was not eligible for the officer
Corp um so you know he kind of got put
into the cannon fighter category
basically um but then randomly they gave
him this test he was transferred to
British intelligence in London that's
where he met my grandmother um but uh he
he had PTSD next level like next level I
mean just didn't talk just didn't talk
and if you tried talking to him he'd
just tell you to shut up and he won a
bunch of medals never never bragged
about it once not even hinted nothing I
like found out about it because I his
military records are online that's a how
I know so he would say like no no way in
hell do you want to do you want to do
that again but how many people um now he
he obviously now he died you know 20
years ago or longer actually 30 years
ago
um how many people are alive that
remember World War II not many and the
same perhaps applies to the threat of
nuclear war
yeah I mean there are enough nuclear
bombs pointed at United States to make
the rubel the radioactive Revel bounce
many
times there's two major Wars going on
right now so you talked about the threat
of AGI quite a bit but now as we sit
here with the intensity of conflict
going on do you worry about nuclear
war I think we shouldn't discount the
possibility of nuclear war uh it is a
civilizational
threat
um right now I could be wrong but I
think the the current probability of
nuclear war is quite low um but there
are a lot of nukes pointed at us so and
we have a lot of nukes pointed at other
people they're still there nobody's put
their uh their guns
away the missiles are still in the silos
and uh the leaders don't seem to be the
ones with the nukes talking to each
other no there are Wars which are tragic
and difficult on a on a local basis and
then there are Wars which are
civilization ending or has that
potential obviously Global ther nuclear
warfare has high potential to end
civilization perhaps permanently but
certainly you know to
severely uh wounded and and perhaps
uh set back uh human progress by you
know to the Stone Age or something I
don't know pretty
bad
um probably scientists and Engineers
won't be super popular after that as
well they're like you got to S this mess
MH
so generally we I think we we obviously
want to prioritize civilizational risks
over things that are um painful and
tragic on on a local level but not
civilizational
how do you hope the war in Ukraine comes
to an end and what's the path once again
to minimizing human suffering
there uh well I think that what what is
likely to happen uh which is really
pretty much the the way it is is that um
something very close to the
current lines uh will
be how a ceasefire or truce
happens
but you know you just have a situation
right now where whoever goes on the
offensive um will suffer casualties at
several times the rate of whoever's on
the defense um because you've got uh
defense and DEP you got minefields uh
trenches anti-tank defenses um nobody
has air superiority um because the the
anti-aircraft missiles are really far
better than the the aircraft like there
far more of them
um and so neither side has air
superiority um tanks are basically death
drafts um just slow moving and they're
not immune to anti-tank weapons MH so
you you really just have longrange
artillery um
and uh infantry trenches it's World War
One all over again
mhm with drones you know throwing little
drones some some drones there um which
makes the long range artillery just that
much more accurate and better and so
more efficient murdering people on both
sides mhm yeah so it's who who whoever
is you don't you don't you don't want to
be trying to advance from either side
because the probability of dying is
incredibly High um so in order to
overcome
uh defense and depth trenches and
minefields you really need uh
significant local superiority numbers um
ideally combined on
where where you you do a fast attack
with
aircraft a concentrated number of Tanks
um and a lot of people that's the only
way you're going to punch through a line
and then you're going to punch through
and and then not have reinforcements
just kick you right out again I mean I I
really recommend people read uh World
War I Warfare in
detail that's rough
um I mean the sheer number of people
that died there was
mindboggling and it's almost impossible
to um imagine the end of it that doesn't
look like almost exactly like the
beginning in terms of who what land
belongs to who and so on but on the
other side of a lot of human
suffering death and destruction of
infrastructure yes the thing that the
reason I I I you know proposed a some
sort of Tru or or peace a year ago was
because I predicted pretty much exactly
what would would happen uh which is a
lot of people dying for basically almost
no changes in
land um and this the the loss of the the
flower of Ukrainian and Russian Youth
and we should have some sympathy for the
the Russian boys as well as the
Ukrainian boys because they Russian boys
didn't didn't ask to be on their front
line they have to be
so
um there's a lot of sons not not coming
back to their parents you know and
and I think most of them don't don't
really have they don't hate the other
side you know it's sort of like is this
saying about like this say comes from
World War I it's like young boys who
don't know each other killing each other
on behalf of old men that do know each
other
the hell's the point of
that so Vladimir zalinski said that he's
not or has said in the past he's not
interested in talking to Putin directly
do you think he should yeah sit down
manto man leader to leader and negotiate
peace look I think I would just
recommend do not send the flower of
Ukrainian youth to be to die uh in
trenches uh whether he talks to Putin or
not just don't do that um whoever goes
on the offensive will lose massive
numbers of
people
um and history will not look kindly upon
them you spoken honestly about the
possibility of war between us and China
in the long term if no diplomatic
solution is found for example on the
question of Taiwan and one China policy
right how do we avoid the trajectory
where these two superpowers
Clash well it's it's worth reading that
book on the the difficult to pronounce
thides trap I believe it's called I love
war history I like and say art and
backwards um there hardly a battle I
haven't read read
about and and trying to figure out like
what what really was the cause of
victory in any particular case as
opposed to what one side or another
claimed was the reason both the Victory
and what sparked the war and yeah yeah
the whole thing yeah so that Athens and
Sparta it's classic case the thing about
the Greeks is they really wrote down a
lot of stuff they loved writing um you
know there lots of interesting things
that happened in many parts of the world
but they people just didn't write down
so we don't know what happened or they
didn't really write
with in detail they just would say like
we went we had a battle and we won and
like what can you add a bit more um the
the Greeks they really wrote a
lot they were very articulate on they
just love writing so and we have a bunch
of that wring it that's preserved so we
know what led up to the pipian war
between um the spot and Athenian
Alliance um and uh we we know that they
they for quite they they saw it
coming I mean the Spartans didn't right
they also weren't very foros by their
nature but they did right but they
weren't very for they were tur uh but
the the Athenians and the other Greeks
wrote wrote a line and they were
like um and spot was really kind of like
the leader of of Greece um but but
Athens grew stronger and stronger with
each passing
year and um and everyone's like well
that's inevitable that there's going to
be a clash between Athens and
Sparta uh well how do we avoid that and
they couldn't they couldn't they
actually they saw it coming and they
still could not avoid
it so you know at some point if there's
if if
one uh group one civilization or or
country or whatever
um exceeds another sort of like if you
know the United States has been the
biggest kid on the Block for since I
think around 1890 from an economic
standpoint so the United States has been
the economic most powerful economic
engine in the world longer than anyone's
been
alive
um and the Foundation of war is
economics
so now we have a situation in case of
china where the um the economy is likely
to be two perhaps three times larger
than that of the US so imagine you're
the biggest kid on the Block for as long
as anyone can remember and suddenly a
kid comes along who's twice your
size so we see it coming yeah how is it
possible
to stop is there some let me throw
something out there just intermixing of
cultures understanding there do seem to
be a giant cultural Gap in understanding
of each other and you're an interesting
case study because you are an American
obviously you've done a lot
of uh incredible manufacturer here in
the United States but you also work with
China I've spent a lot of time in China
and met with the leadership many times
maybe a good question to ask is what are
some things about China that people
don't understand positive just in the
culture what some interesting things
that you've learned about the
Chinese well uh the the sheer number of
really smart hardworking people in China
is um incredible uh there are really you
say like how many smart hardworking
people are there in China there's far
more of them there than there are here I
think in my in my opinion
um the uh and they've got a lot of
energy
so I mean the architecture in China
that's in recent years is far more
impressive than the US I mean the the
train stations the buildings the
highspeed rail everything it's
um really far more impressive than what
we have in the US I I mean I recommend
somebody just go to Shanghai and
Beijing look at the buildings and go to
you take the train from Beijing to Shion
where you have the ter Carter Warriors
um China's got incredible history uh
very long history and um you know I
think arguably the in terms of the use
of language from from a written
standpoint um sort of one of one of the
oldest Perhaps Perhaps the oldest
written language and and then China
people did write things down
so um now China um historically has
always been with rare exception been
internally focused um they've not been
inquisitive uh they've they fought each
other they've been many many Civil Wars
um in the Three Kingdoms War I believe
they lost about 70% of their
population something and so the they've
had brutal internal Wars like civil wars
that make the US Civil War
look small by
comparison um
so I think it's important to appreciate
that China is not
monolithic um we sort of think of like
China is a sort of one entity of one
mind and this is definitely not the case
um from what I've seen and I think most
people who understand China would agree
people in China think about China 10
times more than they think about
anything outside of China so it's like
90% of their consideration is uh
you know is is internal well isn't that
a really positive thing when you're
talking about the collaboration in a
future pece between superpowers when
you're inward facing which is like
focusing on improving yourself versus
focusing on yeah uh quote unquote
improving others through military might
the good news the history of China
suggests that China is not inquisitive
meaning they're not going to go out and
invade a whole bunch of countries um now
they do feel very strongly you know so
that's good I mean because a lot of lot
of very powerful countries have been
inquisitive um the US is one of the also
one of the rare cases that has not been
inquisitive like after World War II the
us could have basically taken over the
world and any country like we got nukes
nobody else got nukes we don't even have
to lose
soldiers uh which country do you want M
and the United States could have taken
over everything oh at well and it didn't
um the United States actually helped
rebuild countries so it helped Reb re
Europe you know helped rebuil
Japan um this is very unusual behavior
almost
unprecedented
um you know the US did conspicuous acts
of kindness like the Berlin
airlift you
know
um and and I think you know there it's
always like well America's done bad
things well of course America's done bad
things but one needs to look at the the
whole track record um
and and just
generally you know one one sort of test
would be how do you treat your prisoners
of War M or let's
say
um you know no offense to the Russians
but let's say you're in Germany it's
1945 you got the Russian army coming one
side you got the French British and
American armies coming the other side
who would you like to be to surrender to
like no country is like Marley perfect
but I recommend um being a PW with the
Americans that would be my choice very
strongly in the full menu of P very much
so and in fact Von Brown um yeah took
you know smart guy uh was like we've got
to be captured by the Americans
yeah and uh in fact the SS was under
orders to execute bar Brown and all of
the uh German rocket Engineers uh and
they narrowly escaped their SSR they
said they were going out for a walk in
the woods they left in the middle of
winter with no coats uh and they ran
like and with no food no coats no water
and just ran like hell uh and ran West
um and by Sherlock they I think his
brother found like a a bicycle or
something and um and then just cycled W
as fast as he could and found found a US
Patrol um
so anyway that's that's one that's one
way you can
tell morality is who who where do you
want to be a
PW it's not fun anywhere but some places
are much worse than others
so um anyway so so so like America has
been uh while far from perfect uh
generally a benevolent Force um and uh
we should always be self-critical and uh
try to be better um but um anyone with
half a bra knows that so so I think I
there are in this way China and uh the
United States are similar NE neither
country has been
inquisitive um in a significant way so
that's like a you know a shared
principle I guess um now now China does
feel very strongly about
Taiwan they've been very clear about
that for a long time um you know from
their standpoint it's it's it would be
like one of the states is is is you know
not there like like Hawaii or something
like that but but more significant than
Hawaii you know
um and Hawaii is pretty significant for
us so um they view it as as as really
the there's a fundamental part of
China the island of fosa not not Taiwan
that is um not part of China but should
be uh and the only reason it hasn't been
is because of the US Pacific
Fleet and is their economic power grows
and is their military power
grows the thing that they are clearly
saying uh is their interest will you
know clearly be
materialized
yes China has been very clear that um
they will incorporate Taiwan uh
peacefully or uh militarily but
that they will incorporate it from their
standpoint is 100%
likely you know something you said about
conspicuous acts of kindness as a
geopolitical policy it almost seems
naive but I'd venture to say that this
is probably the path forward how you
avoid most wars just as you say it it
sounds naive but it's kind of
brilliant if you believe in the goodness
of of underlying most of human nature it
just seems like conspicuous acts of
kindness can uh reverberate through the
populace of the countries
involved yeah well and deescalate
absolutely so in after World War I the
the they made a big mistake you know
they basically triy to lump all the
blame on Germany um and um
and and you know settled Germany with uh
impossible
reparations um and you know really there
was a lot of BL there was a fair quite a
bit of blame to um go around for World
War I um but they they try to you know
put it all in Germany
um and uh that was that that laid the
seeds for World War
II uh
so that's a lot of people people were
not just Hitler a lot of people felt
wronged um
and they wanted
Vengeance and they got it people don't
forget yeah you you kill
somebody's father mother son daughter
they're not going to forget it they will
want Vengeance um so after World War II
they're like well the treat of verai was
a huge mistake um in World War I
and um so this time instead
of
uh you know crushing the losers we're
we're actually going to help them with
the Marshall Plan and we're going to
help R Revol Germany we're going to help
reol or you know Austria and the other
you know Italy and whatnot
so
um that was the right move there's uh
feel like there's a profound
truth to uh the conspicuous a of kind as
being an antidote to
this something must stop the the cycle
of reciprocal
violence something must stop it or it
will you know it'll it'll it'll never
stop
just eye for an eye tooth for a tooth
limb for Lim life for a life forever and
ever to escape briefly the darkness was
some incredible engineering
work uh xai just released grock AI
assistant that I've gotten a chance to
play with it's uh it's amazing on many
levels first of all it's amazing that a
relatively small team in a relatively
short amount of time was able to develop
this close to state-of-the-art system uh
another uh incredible thing is there's a
regular Moe and there's a fun mode yeah
I guess I'm to blame for that
one I wish first of all everything in
life had a fun mode yeah I there's
something compelling Beyond just fun
about the fun mode interacting with a
large language model I'm not sure
exactly what it is cuz I only had a
little bit of time to play with it but
it just makes it more interesting more
vibrant to interact with the system yeah
uh absolutely I um our our AI Gro is
modeled after the Hedgehog is got to the
Galaxy
uh which is one of my favorite books uh
which is it's a book on philosophy
disguised as a book on humor M um and
um I would say that is that forms the
basis of My Philosophy uh which is that
we don't know the meaning of life but
the more we can expand the scope and
scale of
Consciousness digital and
biological the more we are able to
understand what questions to ask about
the that is the
universe so I have a philosophy of
curiosity there is generally a feeling
like this AI system has an
outward looking like the way you are
like sitting with a good friend looking
up at the stars like the asking poad
like questions about the universe
wondering what it's all about the
Curiosity you talk about there there's a
sense no matter how I'm on day in the
question I ask it there there's a sense
of cosmic Grandeur to the whole thing
well we are actually working hard to
have uh engineering math and physics
answers that you can count on
mhm um so for the other sort of AIS out
there
that these so-called large language
models um I've not found the uh
engineering to be reliable um and the
hallucination it it unfortunately
hallucinates Mo most when you least
wanted to alucin yeah so when you ask
important difficult questions it that's
when it tends to be confidently wrong um
so we're really trying hard to say okay
how do we be as grounded as possible so
you can count on the results
um Trace things back to physics first
principles U mathematical logic um so
underlying the humor is an aspiration
to adhere to the truth of the universe
as closely as
possible that's really tricky it is
tricky
so that's why you know you there's
always going to be some amount of error
but do we want to um aspire
to be as truthful as possible about the
answers uh with acknowledged error and
so that there was always you don't want
to be confidently wrong so you're not
not going to be right every time but you
don't be you want to minimize how often
you're confidently uh wrong and then
like I said once you can count on the
logic as being
um not violating physics then you can
start to build on that to create uh
inventions like invent new
technologies but if if you can't if if
you if you
cannot count on the foundational physics
being correct obviously the inventions
are simply wishful
thinking you know imagination
land magic
basically well as you said I think one
of the big goals of xai is to understand
the universe yes that's how simple
three-word uh
Mission um if you look out far into the
future do you think on this level of
physics the very edge of what we
understand about physics do you think it
will make discoveries sort of the
sexiest discovery of them is as we know
now sort of uh unifying general
relativity and quantum mechanics so
coming up with a Theory of Everything do
you think it could push towards that
direction almost like theoretical
physics discoveries if an AI cannot
figure out new physics um it's clearly
not equal to humans let alone nor has
surpass humans because humans have
figured out new physics they just you
know physics is just understanding you
know deing On's insight into how reality
works and then
um the then then this engineering which
is inventing things that have never
existed mhm now the the range of
possibilities for engineering is far
greater than for physics because you
know once you figure out the rules of
the universe uh that that's that's it
you've discovered things that already
existed but from that you can then build
Technologies with that are really almost
Limitless in the uh variety and C you
know it's like once you understand the
rules of the game properly and we do
current physics we do at least at a
local level understand how physics works
very well our ability to predict things
is incredibly good like quantum
mechanics is the degree to which quantum
mechanics can predict outcomes is
incredible um that was my that's my
heart hardest class in college by the
way my my my senior quantum mechanics
class was harder than all of my other
classes put together to get an AI system
a large language model to to um reliably
be as reliable as quantum mechanics and
physics is very difficult yeah you have
to test any any conclusions against the
ground truth of reality reality is the
ultimate judge like physics is a law
everything else is a
recommendation I've seen plenty of
people break the break the laws made by
man but none break the laws made by
physics it's a good test actually if
this
LM uh understands and matches physics
then you can more reliably trust
whatever it thinks about the current
state of politics in some sense and it's
also not not the case currently that uh
even that its internal logic is not
consistent um so especially
um with these with the approach of like
just predicting a token predict token
predict token it's like a vector sum you
know you you're summing up a bunch of
vectors but you can get drift um so as
those a little bit of error a little bit
of error adds up and by the time you are
many tokens down the path uh you're it
it doesn't make any sense MH so it has
to be somehow self-aware about the drift
it has to be self-aware about the drift
and then look at the thing as a gal as a
whole and and say it does it have
coherence as a whole MH
so you know when when authors write
books that they they will write the book
and then they'll go and revise it you
know taking into account you know all
the end and the beginning and the middle
and and
uh rewrite it to achieve coherence so
that it doesn't end end up in a
nonsensical place maybe the process of
revising is what yeah reasoning is and
then that's the process of rising is how
you get closer and closer to truth maybe
you like uh at least I approach that way
you just say a bunch of first
and then you get it better you start a
and then you get you create a
draft and then and then you and then you
iterate on that draft um until it has
has coherence until it's it'll add add
up basically so another question about
Theory of Everything But for
intelligence do you think there exists
as you're exploring this with xai
creating this intelligence system do you
think there is a theory of intelligence
where you get to
understand what
like what is the eye in AGI and what is
the eye in um human intelligence there's
no ey in Team America oh wait there
is uh going to be stuck in my head
now uh yeah there's no me and
whatever uh in quantum mechanics oh
wait uh I mean is that part of the
process of discovering understanding the
universe is understanding
intelligence
yeah yeah I think we need to understand
intelligence understand Consciousness I
mean there I mean there are some sort of
fundamental questions of like
what is thought what is emotion yeah um
is it really just one atom bumping into
another atom it feels like something
more than
that uh so I I I I I think we're
probably missing some really big things
um like some really big things something
that'll be obvious in retrospect yes
like there's a giant like you put the
whole Consciousness
emotion well some would call it like a
like a soul you know religion a soul um
like you feel like you're you right I
mean you don't feel like you're just a
collection of atoms but on what
dimension does thought exist what
dimension does do emotions exist we feel
them very
strongly um I suspect there's more to it
than atoms bump into
atoms and maybe AI can pave the path to
the Discovery what whatever the hell
that thing is is yeah what is
consciousness like what when you put the
atoms in a particular shape why are they
able to form thoughts mhm and take
actions that and and
feelings and even if it is an illusion
why is this illusion so compelling yeah
like how do why does the solution exist
yeah on what plane does this the
solution exist yeah um and sometimes I
wonder
is you know either PA everything's
conscious or nothing is
conscious um one of the two I like the
former everything conscious just seems
more fun it do seem more more fun yes um
but we're composed of atoms and those
atoms are composed of quarks and leptons
and those quarks and leptons have been
around since the beginning of the
universe the beginning of the universe
right what what seems to be the
beginning of the universe the first time
we talked you said what you would which
is surreal to think that this discussion
was happening is becoming a reality I
asked you what question would you ask an
AGI system once you create it and you
said what's outside the simulation is
the question and good question yeah but
it seems like with Gro you started to
literally uh the system's goal is to be
able to ask such questions to answer
such questions and to ask such questions
where are the aliens where are the
aliens that's one of the the like the FY
Paradox question um a lot of people have
asked me if I've seen any evidence of
aliens and I I haven't which is kind of
concerning because
then I think would I probably prefer at
least have seen some archaological
evidence of aliens um to the best of my
knowledge there is no Pro I not worth
any evidence of
aliens out there they're very
subtle we might just be the only
Consciousness at least in the Galaxy um
and if if you look at say the history of
Earth for to believe the archaeological
record Earth is about 4 and a half
billion years old civilization as
measured from the first writing is only
about 5,000 years old we have to give
some credit there to the ancient
samarians who aren't around anymore I
think it was a archaic pre uniform was
the first actual symbolic representation
but only about 5,000 years
ago I think that's a good date for when
when we say civilization
started that's 1 millionth of Earth's
existence so civilization has been
around it's really a flash in the pan
mhm so far
um and why why have
we why did it take so long for you know
4 and a half billion
years um
for the vast majority of the time there
was no life and and then there was
archaic bacteria for a very long
time and
then you know you
had mitochondria get captured
multicellular
life um differentiation into plants and
animals life moving from the oceans to
land
mamals um higher brain
functions and the Sun is expanding
slowly um
but it will it will overheat it will it
will heat heat the Earth up at some
point in the future um boil the oceans
and and Earth will become like Venus
where no life let Life as we know it is
impossible so if we do not become
multiplanetary and
ultimately go beyond our solar system um
annihilation of all life on Earth is a
certainty
a
certainty um and it could be as little
as on the galactic time
scale uh half a billion
years you know long time by human
standards but that's only 10% longer
than Earth has been around at all mhm so
if if life had taken 10% longer to
evolve on Earth it wouldn't exist at all
we got a deadline coming up better hurry
but that said as you said humans
intelligent life on
Earth developed a lot of cool stuff very
quickly so yes it it seems like becoming
a multiplanetary is almost
inevitable unless we destroy we need to
do it I mean it's it's not I mean I
suspect that there
there if we are able to go out there and
explore other star systems that we there
chance we find a whole bunch of long
Dead one planet civilizations yeah they
never made it past to their home planet
that's so
sad sad also fascinating I mean there
are various explanations for the for
Paradox and one is just the sort of
there these great filters which
civilizations don't pass through and one
of those great filters is do you become
a multi-planet civilization or not and
if you don't it's simply a matter of
time before something happens on your
planet
um you know either natural or man-made
that causes us to die out like the
dinosaurs where are they
now that didn't have
spaceships so I think the more likely
thing is cuz just
a uh empathize with the aliens that they
they found us and they're protecting us
and letting us beat I hope so nice
aliens just like the tribes in the in
the Amazon the on contacted tribes we
protecting them that's what uh that
would be a nice explanation or you could
have like uh what was it uh I think
Andre kathi said it's like the ants in
the Amazon asking where's
everybody well they do run into a lot of
other ants that's true these ant
Wars sounds like a good TV show yeah
they literally have these big Wars
between various
ants yeah I'm maybe I'm just
uh uh dismissing all the different Unity
evance you should listen to that wner
hog talking about the jungle it's really
hilarious have you heard it no I have
not but wner hog is a
way you should play you should play it
for the you know as an interlude in the
it's on YouTube it's it's
awesome I love him so much uh he's great
was he the director of happy people life
in the tiger I think also he did that
bear documentary The Bear documentary
and this thing about penguins yeah
the depr the analysis psycho analysis of
P psych yeah the penguins like headed
for like mountains like that are like 70
miles away and penguin has just had for
Doom basically well he was had a cynical
take I I have a he could be just a brave
Explorer and there'll be great stories
told about him amongst the penguin
population for many centuries to
come
um what we talking about okay uh
yeah so aliens I mean I don't know look
I think if the smart move uh is just you
know this is the first time in the
history of Earth that it's been possible
for life to extend beyond Earth um that
window is open um now it may be open for
a long time or it may be open for a
short
time and it it may be open now and then
never open again so I I think the smart
move here is to make life multiplanetary
while it is possible to do so we don't
want to be one of those lame One Planet
civilizations that just dies out no
those are lame
lame um self-respecting civilization
would be one planet there's not going to
be a Wikipedia entry for one of
those and uh pause uh do SpaceX have an
official uh policy for when we meet
Aliens no okay that seems irresponsible
um I mean look if I see the slightest
indication that there are aliens I will
immediately post on the next platform
yeah anything I know it could be the
most liked reposted post of all time
yeah I mean look we have more satellites
up there right now than everyone else
combined so you know we'd know we know
if we got to maneuver around something
and we not I don't have to maneuver
around
anything if you go to the the big
questions once again you said you've um
you're with Einstein that you believe in
the god of
Spinosa yes uh so you know that's a view
that God is like the universe and is
reveals himself through the laws of
physics or as Einstein said through the
lawful Harmony of the world yeah I would
agree that that God of the simulator or
whatever the the Supreme Being or beings
um um
themselves through the physics you know
they creators of this existence and it's
incom upon us to try to understand more
about this wondrous
creation like who created this thing
who's running this thing like embodying
it into a a singular question with a
sexy word on top of it is like focusing
the mind to understand it it does seem
like there's a um again it could be an
illusion it seemed like there's a
purpose that there's underlying master
plan of some kind kind it seems like
there may not be a master plan in the
sense so this like maybe an interesting
answer to the question of determinism
versus free will is that if we are in a
simulation the reason that the the these
higher beings would hold a simulation is
to see what happens mhm so it's not um
they don't know what
happens uh otherwise they wouldn't hold
the simulation mhm so when when humans
create a simulation so it's basx and
Tesla we create simulations all the time
um especially for the rocket you you uh
you know you have to run a lot of
simulations to understand what's going
to happen because you can't really test
the rocket until it goes to space and
you want it to work so you have to you
have to
simulate subsonic transonic hyp
supersonic
hyponic um ascent and then coming back
super high Heating and um orbital
Dynamics all this has got to be
simulated
so uh you don't get very many kicks that
they can but we run the simulations to
see what happens not if we knew what
happens we wouldn't run the simulation
mhm so if if there's so whoever created
this
existence um
is they're running it because they don't
know what's going to happen not because
they
do so maybe uh we both play Diablo maybe
Diablo was created to see if a druid
your character could defeat Uber Lilith
at the end they didn't know well the
funny thing is
UB uh her title is hatred incarnate yeah
um and right now I guess you can ask the
Diablo team but it's almost impossible
to defeat
hatred uh in the Eternal realm yeah
you've streamed yourself dominating tier
100 nightmare Dungeons and still I I I
can cruise through tier 100 nightmare
dungeons like a stroll in the park mhm
and still you're defeated by hatred yeah
I can there the sort of I guess maybe
the second heartest boss is duriel
durial can't even scratch the paint so
uh I killed duel duel so many times um
and every other boss in the game all all
of them kill him so many times it's easy
um
but uh uth otherwise known as hatred
incarnate especially if you're a druid
and you have no ability to go to be inv
vulnerable you there are these random
death waves that that come at you
um and I'm pretty you know really I am
52 so my reflexes not what they used to
be but I'm I have a lifetime of playing
video games um at one point I was you
know maybe one of the best Quake players
in the world um actually won money for
what I think was the first paid orts
tournament in the US um we're do doing
four person Quake tournaments and
um we came second I was the second best
person on the team and the the the
actual best person we we're actually
winning we would have come first except
the best person on the team his computer
crashed halfway through the game um so
we we came second but I got money for it
and everything so like basically I got
skills you know I'll be it you know
no no spring spring chicken these days
and
um the to be totally Frank it's driving
me crazy trying to beat Lilith as a
druid basically try trying to beat
trying to beat hatred and connate in the
Eternal realm as a druid as a druid and
if you if you if you this is
really vexing let me tell you um I mean
the challenge is part of the fun I I
have seen directly like you're actually
like a world class Incredible video game
player yeah and I think Diablo so you're
just picking up a new game and you're
figuring out his fundamentals you're
also with the Paragon board and the
build are not somebody like me who
perfectly follows whatever they suggest
on the internet you're also an innovator
there yeah which is hilarious to watch
it's like a it's like a mad scientist
just trying to figure out the Paragon
board and and the build and you know um
is there some interesting insights there
about uh if if somebody's starting as a
druid do you have
advice um I would not recommend playing
a druid in the Eternal realm um right
now I think the most powerful character
in this in the seasonal realm is the
sorcerer with the lightning bows mhm so
the SS have huge balls in um the
seasonal oh yeah that's what they
say so ex huge balls um they do uh huge
balls of lightning I'll take your a word
for it and it's actually in the seasonal
realm you can you can it's it's like
pretty easy to beat uh Uber lth with the
because you get these vampiric powers
that amplify your damage and increase
your defense and whatnot so um really
quite easy to defeat hatred seasonally
but to defeat hatred eternally very
difficult um almost imposs it's very un
impossible it seems like this know a
metaphor for life you know I like the
idea that Elon Musk CU I saw I was
playing diao yesterday and I saw 100
level 100 Druid just run by I will never
die and then run back the other way and
it there's just some this metaphor is
kind of hilarious that you Elon Musk is
fighting
hatred restlessly fighting hatred in
this demonic realm yes it's hilarious I
mean it's pretty hilarious no it's
absurd really it's exercising absurdity
and it makes me want to pull my hair out
yeah um I what do you get from video
games in general is there is there for
you for
you personally it's I don't know it's uh
it calms my mind I mean you sort of
killing the demons in a video game calms
the demons in my
mind yeah if you play a tough video game
you can get into like a state of flow
which is very enjoyable um and
uh admittedly it it needs to be not too
easy not too hard um kind of in the
goldilock zone um and I guess you
generally want to feel like you're
progressing in the game
so um a good video and and there's also
beautiful art um engaging story
lines um and it's a it's like an amazing
puzzle to solve I think and so I just
like solving the puzzle Elder ring the
greatest game of all time I still
haven't played it but you it's alen ring
is definitely a candid for best game
ever top five for sure I think I've been
scared how hard it is oh how hard I here
it is so but it is beautiful alen ring
is feels like it's designed by an
alien um there's a theme to this
discussion in what way it's it's it's so
unusual it's incredibly creative and the
art is
stunning I recommend playing it on a on
a big resolution Pi on ra TV even
doesn't need to be a monitor just uh the
art is incredible it's so
beautiful and and it's it's so
unusual
um and each of those TP boss battles is
unique like it's like a unique puzzle to
solve each one's different um and the
strategy you use to solve one battle is
different from another battle that said
you said drew it an intern against Uber
Lilith is the hardest boss battle you've
ever correct that is currently the the
and i' I've played a lot of video games
my because it's my primary recreational
activity yes
um
and
yes beating hatred in the internal realm
yeah is the hardest boss
battle in life and in the video game man
I don't I'm not sure it's
but it's I do make progress so then I'm
like okay I'm making progress
maybe if I just tweak that Paragon board
a little
more I can do it could just dodge a few
more
waves I can do it well the simulation is
created for the purpose of figuring out
if it can be done and you're just a cog
in that simulation in the machine of the
simulation yeah it might
be I I I I I have a feeling
that at
least I
think it's doable it's doable yes mhm
well that's the human Spirit right there
to believe yeah I mean it did prompt me
to think about just hate in general
which is
you want to be careful of one of