Kind: captions
Language: en
we have been encouraged culturally to
criticize people we're in long-term
relationships with not new relationships
new relationships you put the person on
a pedestal you're allowed to just oh
they're wonderful but every Trope out
there and every form of popular media is
like the wife rolling her eyes at the
husband and the husband being like Oh
there's loads some Harpy that castrated
me as if like people are just passive
players in their lives and I I think
that is an incredibly toxic message to
send to people that this is how we
should be relating to our partner like
we should not you don't take the piss
out of your partner in front of people
like the successful relationships I've
seen are where people are just cheering
for their partner where they are
thickest thieves where there is just
this feeling of like man they like each
other like they are they got each
other's back like you wouldn't believe
like man you could take sides against
anybody but take sides against their
partner you're going down like and that
when you see a couple that has that
you just you know they it's that's so
hard to break but but I think that comes
from
having like a
steadfast yeah no I don't do that like I
don't shit talk my partner yeah like and
you don't shit talk my partner to me you
know like and that to me is when because
I think we're just so criticized by the
world the world is so full of criticism
we criticize ourselves so harshly that
having a partner who no matter what is
like you've got this I'm With You Like
You Fuck okay yeah you screwed up I see
it look I'm not gonna lie to you about
your blind spots you screwed up but you
know what people screw up sometimes you
gotta write to screw up a lot of people
screw up come on get up let's go I know
you have it in you if you have that
person like that I I feel like that's a
that's a superpower
following is a conversation with James
Sexton divorce attorney and author of
how to stay in love a divorce lawyer's
guide to staying together as a trial
lawyer James for over two decades has
negotiated and litigated a huge number
of high conflict divorces this has given
him a deep understanding of how
relationships fail and how they can
succeed and bigger than that the role of
love and pain and this whole messy
roller coaster ride we call life
this is the Lex Friedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's James Sexton
what is the most common reason that
marriages fail that's a great question
but it's a question that everybody wants
there to be a simple answer like they
want me to say cheating or money or you
know the internet but but the reality is
I think it's a lot of little things it's
this disconnection that would be my
answer the reason marriages fail is
disconnection what causes disconnection
that's the bigger and I think more
important question because like Tom Wolf
said about bankruptcy it happens very
slowly and then all at once
disconnection happens very slowly and
then all at once so most of the time
what I think people want is an answer
like
cheating but cheating is the big all at
once thing how did we get to the place
where cheating was even something you
were thinking about doing or that you
would think about and then cross the
line from thought into action and that's
I think the the big question so
disconnection would be my answer do you
think it's possible to introspect like
looking backwards for every individual
case where the disconnection began and
how it evolved sure yeah this is such a
multivariate equation
it's it's a it's a dance it's a
chemistry it's a it's what did you do
and what did the other person do and see
that the interesting thing about being a
divorce lawyer is
I'm weaponizing Intimacy in a courtroom
so I'm I'm telling it's full contact
storytelling what I do for a living so
what I do is I take my client's story
and I have to present it to a judge and
make my client the hero in every way and
the other side the villain in every way
now I have to be careful not to do that
in a manner that that loses credibility
because even a judge would know even a
judge is smart enough to know that no
one's all good or all bad
but
only if you were reverse engineering a
relationship and saying how did this
break you really have to look at both
people the good and the bad you know
what what each of them did that moved
the dial in these different directions
and I think that that's
um that's very hard for anyone going
through a divorce to do about their own
relationship you know we don't know who
discovered water but it wasn't a fish
like if you're in it I don't think you
see it clearly I think as a divorce
lawyer
whose job is to really drill down on the
facts and figure out what's going on in
this story
I have to look at both sides so I have
to think a lot about my own arguments
but I also have to think about what's
the other lawyer's argument going to be
especially in custody cases so I really
have been forced to look at both sides
for so
many years so deeply in relationships
that once you do that it's very you
realize that the good guy bad guy thing
just doesn't apply I wonder if it's the
little things or a few big things
that caused this connection whether it's
I mean you've talked about granola and
blow jobs but those seem to be stories
that you can tell to yourself like
um maybe maybe that story should be
explained uh or maybe you don't think
you don't think for an online blowjobs
is self-explanatory almost I think I
think people can construct a good like
if you ask GPT what do they mean I think
the story that would come up is pretty
good one but you know that's a story you
tell about when you first knew
it's the disconnection has begun is when
you stop putting my buy my favorite
granola or when she stopped giving
blowjobs I would say when it's
reached like a critical mass yeah phase
shift because I think it started before
that when she said yeah I used to give
him blow jobs and you know when we were
in our early relationship and then one
day like I just was like oh well you
know we don't have much time like I'll
wait until later and we'll have sex and
then we both enjoy it blowjobs are
inefficient yeah exactly correct so you
batch it all together yeah so she said
well exactly and they had kids at that
point so I think she really was like Hey
we've gotten certain window yeah so
let's have something we both enjoy so I
don't think she had any negative
intentions there I think that that she
was working in good faith towards the
betterment of the relationship but it
was having this second order effect and
so I
I I really do think that yeah the
blowjobs granola I mean they're anyone
who's been in a long-term relationship
I guess it's just worth asking the
question
what what does this person do that makes
me feel loved
because I I
think it's very interesting in my own
experience in life
I was remember I had a difficult chapter
with one of my sons my younger son when
he was in his early 20s
and we were having a heartfelt
conversation and I said to him do you do
you know I love you
and he said well yeah of course I do I
said but do you feel my love like do you
feel it you know not just do you know it
intellectually do you feel it
and I remember thinking to myself when
do we feel someone's love right like
what what is it that they do and
sometimes it's the weirdest silliest
things that they would never know they
are the person who's showing us that
they love us and that we're feeling
their love they would never show us
like if you said why why does this
person love you they wouldn't say oh
cause
um I always make sure that when the
paper comes I bring it from the bottom
of the driveway to the door so they
don't have to go out and get it where I
always hold the door for them or I you
know oh I always like again I buy the
granola that I know this person likes
you know or I I remembered that they
don't like it when I put on this
particular record so I don't put it on
like and and those are these yes they're
small things but they're not small
they're kind of everything do you think
it's good to communicate that stuff what
it takes away some of the power of it
right when you point it out
then the person realizes oh okay he
likes this or dislikes this so yes it
becomes a deliberateness to it you know
a conscious
so I understand not pointing that out
when it's a good thing
I think when it's a negative thing like
I I think in in the granola situation
if she had said to him
hey
you used to do this and you've stopped
that feels like something to me like she
said she didn't say anything about that
just like he probably didn't say
anything about the blowjobs like I think
if there had been a moment of this is
starting let's talk about it while it's
starting but people wait from what I can
see people wait until the big thing
happens the financial impropriety the
substance use disorder the cheating they
wait for that to happen and then they go
where did we go wrong and the answer is
quite a while ago
with the granola
yeah yeah so when you notice something
like you notice that little something
talk about it
because that little something is
probably kernel of a deeper truth of
course there is also moods we're all
like a roller coaster of emotion so you
can not bring a granola one day just a
just because you're in this place where
just not nothing is just cynicism
everywhere just anger and so on but it's
a temporary feeling but maybe that
temporary feeling is grounded in some
other deeper current that's actually
building up yeah and I think a good
partner
wants to understand the currents yeah
they're of their party yeah if they want
to understand like hey are you going
through something like and look if I'm
the one you need to take it out on
that's okay like I'm a big boy I can
take it you know like if you're hormonal
if you're you know frustrated at work if
you're whatever like we should be able
to you know to to have a little bit of
of that interaction in a relationship
but I I do think
it's so easy to just say to people
communication is the key but it really
is about
Fearless kinds of communication it's
about really honestly saying to somebody
you know this
this is feels like something to me am I
wrong like this just feels like
something to me and also how that's
presented I mean one of the things I I'm
very
you know I'm very caught up on or or
feel very strongly about
is that we we have been encouraged
culturally to criticize people we're in
long-term relationships with not new
relationships new relationships you put
the person on a pedestal you're allowed
to just oh they're wonderful but every
Trope out there in every form of popular
media is like the wife rolling her eyes
at the husband and the husband being
like Oh there's loads some Harpy that
castrated me as if like people are just
passive players in their lives and I I
think
that is an incredibly toxic message to
send to people that this is how we
should be relating to our partner like
we should not you don't take the piss
out of your partner in front of people
like the successful relationships I've
seen are where people are just cheering
for their partner where they are
thickest thieves where there is just
this feeling of like man they like each
other like they are they got each
other's back like you wouldn't believe
like man you could take sides against
anybody but take sides against their
partner you're going down like and that
when you see a couple that has that
you just you know it's that's so hard to
break but but I think that comes from
having like a
steadfast yeah no I don't do that like I
don't shit talk my partner yeah like and
you don't shit talk my partner to me you
know like and that to me is when because
I think we're just so criticized by the
world the world is so full of criticism
we criticize ourselves so harshly that
having a partner who no matter what is
like you've got this I'm With You Like
You Fuck okay yeah you screwed up I see
it look I'm not gonna lie to you about
your blind spots you screwed up but you
know what people screw up sometimes you
gotta write to screw up a lot of people
screw up come on get up let's go I know
you have it in you if you have that
person like that I I feel like that's a
that's a superpower to have that effect
on another person yeah one of the things
I love seeing when you look at a couple
and one is talking
uh like in an interview yeah answering a
question especially like intellectual
questions
like uh what do you think about the war
in Ukraine or something and then the
partners talking and the other the other
person is looking at them as if they're
hearing the wisest thing yeah ever like
they're they're looking at them not
waiting for their turn to speak not
thinking about how's the audience going
to take that but they're looking at them
like God damn I'm so lucky yeah to be
with this smart motherfucker isn't that
but there's this and they could be
saying the dumbled shit there's a scene
in the movie True Romance yeah because I
love a great movie I mean that Gary
Oldman seems like the greatest scene
ever done in in film you know with
Christian Slater and he but there's a
scene in it where she holds up a sign to
Christian Slater and it says you're so
cool you're so cool and I I like man
like that's it yeah that's it like I
I've always I think I said somewhere in
the book that you know you go to
weddings and like when the bride walks
in you know everybody's looking at the
bride it's her show you know everybody
turns around is the first Glimpse
everybody gets the bride and I never
look at the bride I always look at the
groom looking at the bride
because there's this like to me that's
every like he has this look like this
because this is the first time he's
seeing her in the dress most of the time
and also he's seeing her like holy shit
she's coming down the aisle we're
getting married like but this is it and
everyone's looking at her
and and I always look at him because I
always think to myself like like the
look on his face is like that's like
this feeling of like holy yeah wow okay
like that's everyone's looking at her
and she's mine and she's coming up here
and we're getting married and I feel
like yeah like that that kind of
adoration
like I think that's the look we're
describing is like adoration like that
the words coming out of their mouth that
they're like yeah that's mine that one's
mine you know that's such a great thing
like it's such a great feeling seeing
the good stuff like with uh with True
Romance I mean you could uh make fun of
the guys totally cringe wearing Elvis
like be essentially being a fake Elvis
with Shades and like what what is he
doing it's like watching these kung fu
movies but from her perspective and from
any perspective you could take on him is
this is the the baddest motherfucker
who's ever lived like he's willing to do
those things for me but not like
it's almost like an epic heroic figure
yeah and we're living in this Epic
hero story and what does that do to him
though yeah that's what see that that's
the point like if there's a point to
this
to this whole thing this whole couple
thing yeah isn't that it yeah like I
don't I don't understand this idea of
you know we had a successful marriage we
were married for 50 something years we
were miserable for 47 of them but we
hung in there like it this is an
endurance event like the primary
relationship of your life you've decided
you're gonna turn into the the like a
50-mile trail race
like why why would you do that like
congratulations you you took the concept
of monogamy and made it something that
two people are absolutely not gonna
enjoy but you hung in there like
congratulations and I understand there's
religious perspectives that say well
it's a sacred Covenant but I I have a
real chicken or the egg problem with
that yeah because I think it was like
well how do we sell this incredibly
stupid concept that isn't working to
people I know we'll tell them God says
you have to and and we'll sign on for
that I I don't buy it I don't buy it
anymore I really because when you see
a successful marriage where you see to
be even without a marriage you see a
pair bond you see a couple that really
love each other and cheer for each other
in that way and like hang on each
other's words that way and like are just
in each other's Corner that way
you see the fake shit instantly yeah
like you you see the difference right
away it's like if you you know the first
time this is the first time I've come to
Austin I've had I thought I'd eaten a
lot of barbecue in my life
I've never had Texas barbecue I landed I
went and had barbecue I was like okay
I've never had barbecue before
apparently this is there's a whole
different thing I think it's the same
thing I think it's like once you see
real love like real love and and I mean
romantic love like real love like that
real Bond real you go oh yeah this other
thing's not gonna do it do you think
that's a daily deliberate choice that
that a couple like that makes
because it feels like a very easy to do
deliberate step
like choose to see the brilliant in it
the beautiful in it and almost
immediately everything shifts and it
becomes this momentum or all you see is
the beautiful and all you see is the
brilliant that is a conscious choice I
think approaching life that way is a
conscious Choice approaching any
relationship that way is a conscious
choice I mean looking at
someone who hurts you
or does something hurtful to you
and thinking about what's going on in
their life that they're doing that or
what's happening with them yeah that's a
very conscious choice and I think a
better one a better one than seething in
animosity and letting that eat you alive
but but I I don't know that it's
I don't think it should be so difficult
like with our children with our pets we
don't have this problem like you never
have someone look at their dog who
they've had for eight years and go I
gotta get a new dog like I've had this
one for eight years like I gotta get
like puppies are so cute what am I doing
with this old dog like it's the total
opposite they're like oh my God this is
like my dog this is my dog like the
smell of the dog it's like this my dog's
smell the bad habits of the dog you're
like that's my stupid dog that does
stupid things and it's not like that has
to be a conscious like they wake up
every dingo I should be grateful for the
dog like it's just
you know and so and your children like
people's children you know it's why
people are like not aware of how
annoying their children are because
they're not annoying to them like I get
it like to you the sound of your kids
shrieking
is like oh my kid's having a good time
and you don't get
that and see when I try to when I hear
that I try to hear it with those ears
like oh that like I'm a parent I get it
my kids are adults now but like I get it
like so when I hear a kid shrieking I
just I'm like ah like to that parent
that's the sound of that kid having a
great time and good like it's so nice
that that's in the world but it so for
me it has to be conscious for that
parent I don't think it has to be
conscious so I think it would be great
if it didn't have to be a conscious
practice but I wonder if like anything
in meditation or mindfulness
it's a matter of exercising that way of
seeing yeah and then once you've come to
that
it becomes it does itself right like it
it really does like your
I think it's it initially has to be a
conscious practice
and and by the way it's easier to make
it a conscious practice before it
started to fade right like the I mean
that's what's so amazing about marriage
is there's like almost eight billion
people in the world and you're picking
this one so when you marry in theory
like the stocks at its highest like
you're as crazy about each other as you
could possibly be so that's the time to
get into this mindfulness to get into
this practice not once it's like the
wheels are starting to come off it's
much harder it's like gaining a bunch of
weight and then saying okay how am I
gonna lose the weight now well I think
that even before marriage like right
away just see everything is beautiful
let me quote BoJack Horseman on this
when you look at someone through Rose
Colored Glasses all the red flags just
look like Flags that's great there's a
there's a certain sense where
if you're from the very beginning of
course you could end up in toxic
relationships that way but
you know life is short you're gonna die
eventually might as well really go all
in on relationships there's a line in
the drugstore cowboy which is a great
film where he says we played a game you
couldn't win to the utmost
yeah and I think everything I think life
is a game you can't win and so you play
it to the utmost like to love anything
is insane
because you are accepting that you're
going to lose it
like I I'm a dog person and I and
you you get a dog and you're you've just
resigned yourself to unbelievable pain
because this thing's gonna die in like
10 years maybe 15 if you're lucky
and why would you open your heart to
that why would you let because the joy
is just so wonderful of it the of the of
the ride up until it same thing with us
I mean every marriage every relationship
every love is gonna end it's going to
end in death or divorce so why not like
just go in like go in like go in and
just get get weird you know like don't
Define it the way that's I mean look at
you know again we keep going back to
True Romance but just get weird like
yeah I love this Elvis pretending to be
weirdo I love this like you know like
former sex worker who's like you know
like whatever like just go in like love
this person have them love you don't
worry about what everybody else is doing
in their relationship like we're in such
I mean it's not to me surprising that
that as the performative aspects of Life
on social media increases people's
satisfaction with their relationships
and the divorce rate you know is is
following the same Trend because I I
think everyone's going well what's
everybody else doing you know what how
much sex is everyone else having the
only two people that should worry about
how much sex you're having to the two
people if the two people are happy in
the relationship great then what does it
matter what does it matter what
everybody else is doing yeah there
should be an element to Great
relationships and great friendships of
like fuck the world it's US versus us
it's us yeah and that's what I mean when
I say that that thick is thieves like
when they're when they're like a unit
like that because it's look at it's just
us it's just what we want it's what we
like and that's why I I said like you
know even when it comes to sex or things
like that like if you can't be candid
with your partner about whatever weird
shit you're into or what fantasy you had
and any particular yeah well no matter
who the hell can you be candid with I
mean because you're gonna either go
without or go elsewhere and neither of
those is a particularly healthy option
or helpful option it's it's the start of
that decline so why why open yourself to
that decline which invariably is just
the path to the chair in front of me in
my office yeah you have uh a full
section in your book on on foot fetishes
I do I do yeah which is funny because I
don't know anything about football
images yeah like I can't I'm not King
shaming anybody but like there's nothing
sexual about feet to me at all like I
just don't get it I don't but I mean
listen people like things it's good you
know but yeah I I have had clients that
have
odd fetishes or sexual proclivities or
things they want to do and they don't
share it with their partner at all and
then they find an outlet for it because
they try to go without it and that
doesn't work so they try to find some
other outlet for it and then that's
interpreted as a betrayal and it creates
distance and people split up and of
course everybody likes to have like a
you know a bad guy to blame it on so
when you say Well why'd you guys get
divorced oh because he's secretly out of
foot fetish and he was on these message
boards like people about well it gives
you an easy answer as to why the two of
you split up but I don't think you know
most divorces have such simple answers
is it was a foot thing but I also think
too like listen if you got a partner
and we all do stuff that we're not super
into because we're in a relationship and
that's what part of it is like do you
really want to go see that chick flick
do you really want to eat at this
restaurant you really want to go to her
cousin's wedding no but you know part of
being a relationship is okay if you're
into this I'm gonna
pretend this song's a good song you know
even though it's not my favorite song
and and I think
I I just don't know we've turned sex I
mean sex has been so politicized in
recent years maybe it always was but I I
think we've made it into something where
we can't just I don't know I'm not in
defeat but if the woman I love was like
you know I'm really in defeat like I
really want to do stuff with your feet
I'd be like all right I can pretend I'm
into that like for it's not gonna kill
me yeah no I'm not gonna be able to make
it a centerpiece of our coupling but you
know like yeah I can pretend them into
feed if you want I don't personally have
any fetishes that are outside of the um
the normal discourse as a divorce lawyer
I get to experience the whole Spectrum
but if I like if I was into like furries
for example yeah I don't know how I
would initiate the conversation with my
partner about that
but but frame the question the other
direction if you were into furries yeah
how do you prevent your partner from
knowing anything about that
that feels like a real you'd have to
make a conscious choice to not let your
partner know sure sure so so I I don't
think either of those is a particularly
palatable or easy proposition but a lot
of people live life hiding some part of
themselves yeah quite unsuccessfully
like it the the second order effects of
that are very rarely positive sure I
don't I don't think I've ever met
someone and went yeah I really hid this
huge part of myself for an extended
period of time and that's the best thing
that happened it's I'm really glad I'm
really glad I stayed in the closet as
long as I did you know it really worked
out like it rarely does it's a question
of how long can you hold it off yeah
like I know gay men
who stayed in the closet for 40 years 50
years of their lives
and then they had a successful second
chapter as a gay man
I've had clients like that
do they regret that they were in the
closet no because they were married they
had kids like they had experiences
they're glad they had
but with their advice to a young person
in their 20s and 30s who's gay be stay
in the closet because then you can have
a wife and some kids and then you can
come out when you're 50 or 60 and have a
second chapter no they would say you
know be who you are don't be afraid you
know as you were talking I'm trying to
think of because I I'm publicly and
privately I'm the exact same person I
try to be the exact same person so I
usually try to make sure there's nothing
to hide but I I was trying to come up
with the counter example for you for if
there's good things
um well I mean there could be like past
relationships like well if I you know
slept with thousands of women or
something like this maybe that you wanna
put that to the side well you don't want
to be in there's a difference between
being honest about something and being
indelicate about it right you know like
I I I think we all do this with lovers
like any of us who've been in more than
one relationship
you would not you know at the end of sex
be like that was the third best sex I've
ever had you know like you that's it's
just in delicate it's rude you know so
so I don't think it's a matter of like
total Candor at all times
but I I think if you were using the
furry example I'm not picking on furries
I just think if if that is a proclivity
that is anything other than a passing
thought like it's something that you
just keep coming back to
then you're making a conscious decision
to withhold it from your partner and
what is that out of I mean I would say
it's probably out of fear I'm not a
psychologist but probably out of fear
fear that they would reject you that
they okay well now
see I I genuinely believe that that
this
you know
I I'm I'm very conflicted in my
religious Faith but I
I don't know that I believe in the devil
but if there was a devil
I think his principal function would be
to convince us that we are so beastial
that God couldn't love us
it would be to convince us that we're
awful
and that we should just lean into the
awfulness and I know the the greatest
low points of my life came whenever I
just went you know what I'm just I'm
just awful I might as well just behave
awfully
and
I I really believe
that
when you don't
when you push down parts of yourself
like your sexuality
like your insecurities your true
feelings from your romantic partner the
person who's supposed to be your you
know your number one
you are making sure you will never feel
their love
because they don't love you
they love the you you've presented to
them which you know in your heart is not
the authentic honest real you
and so if you know you're super into
furries
and you don't tell your partner about
that
and your partner says I love you so much
and you know what I love one of the
things I love about us is we have such
great sexual chemistry you'll never feel
that love because you know yeah that's
not true though she doesn't know she
doesn't know that actually I'm not
really satisfied and there is this thing
that I want that I know I can't even
tell her because I'm so ashamed like
that doesn't feel like a good option to
me
yeah yeah so that kind of vulnerability
is essential to intimacy you know I'm
prone to Jujitsu metaphors and this is
one of the first conversations where I
can actually use them because the person
I'm talking to is a jiu jitsu person but
and people should know that you are a
quote-unquote Jiu-Jitsu person you have
been Afflicted with the I am a brown
belt under Marcella Garcia and I am like
a seven year brown belt now so which is
the right way to be a brombo well and
also I am I am you know late middle aged
middleweight and moderately talented so
I'm I'm and training it at that Academy
with so many incredibly talented people
and training in New York City where
there's so many unbelievably talented
people you're you're constantly humble
and feeling like you should just be
wearing a blue belt all the time
um but but a lot of I think as you know
and as most most people who practice Jiu
Jitsu know you start to sort of see Jiu
Jitsu and everything I genuinely believe
that in
love
you you have to give something to get
something you have to CR everything you
do creates a vulnerability
you know every every move you make in
jiu jitsu
creates opportunity and creates
vulnerability and so you have to be
willing to create vulnerabilities in
order to get any leverage in order to
get any progress and any way to move the
position you know you don't want a
marriage that's just two people both in
50 50. you know like you're just sitting
in that guard doing nothing you know you
you wanna you want it to actually move
along
yeah I mean that's the way I see love in
relationships is you should take that
leap of vulnerability give the other
person the option to destroy you
what you have to expose and that's
that's the part that I think is is
um hard for everyone you know is is to
expose yourself in that way but that's
what I mean even when I said about
getting a dog or having a child like
love loving anything
is tremendously courageous
because it's terrifying
and and it's only Brave if you're scared
if you're not scared you know it's not
brave it's just stupidity it's just you
know it's it's it's bravery when you're
afraid and you do the thing anyway and
so love is like yeah it's scary like it
I don't care who you are like I you know
being you know in the Jiu Jitsu
Community like I'm around you know as
you are all like incredibly tough people
like physically tough people mentally
tough people but you know I've seen some
of those people taken down yeah by a 120
pound woman you know not not not from a
grappling perspective but they are taken
apart Yeah by a woman in their life and
and vice versa I've seen men you know
who like it really is shocking how much
leverage we give to our romantic
partners and how little discussion we
really genuine discussion we really have
about it how much we really are ever
trained to think about it you know
there's nothing in school that teaches
us about it so much of literature and
art is an idealized version of it
so little of it is is real and no matter
how it evolves when it ends in tragedy
or uh drama
I feel like what people don't do enough
is appreciate the good times like
appreciate
how beautiful it is to having taken the
risk and two having experienced that
kind of love I think when you look at
people and that are divorcing each other
uh there's a Edgar Allan Poe quote the
years of Love have been forgot in the
hatred of a minute I always kind of am
saddened like deeply saddened
how people seem to forget how many
Beautiful Moments have been shared when
some
reason some drama some breakup leads
them to part ways yeah yeah it's
interesting that you came to that not
being a divorce lawyer because I I felt
that way for a long time and I really
try to say to my clients
like in the courtroom at the negotiating
table I have a role to play where I have
to be sort of like a Pit Bull or you
know some kind of a like a courtroom
sociopath but behind closed doors like
I'm very candid with people I'm trying
to be much more emotionally attuned with
so you're in
empath in the sheets and sociopath in
the streets exactly correct that's well
said I get a new tattoo idea that's good
I like that
I I
but I I do believe when I'm behind
closed doors with people I say to them
how you end things is going to be how
you're going to remember the whole thing
and and that's unfortunate because you
know you watch like a two-hour movie
and if the last 15 minutes of it sucked
you go well that movie sucked like well
the first hour in 45 was great you know
but you walk out with this bad taste in
your mouth
I I'm genuinely
in awe of how easily people forget that
they loved each other
and and I'm amazed Because by the time I
meet them and by the time they they hire
me to be a weapon against the person
they were in love with
there's nothing but animosity there
and so I have to try to imagine
what these two people looked like when
they were in love with each other and
how that even existed but
I have to tell you like I I you know I I
don't function that way like I
every woman I ever had a relationship
with like I when I think of them I I
don't think of the ending necessarily I
think of I try to think about the
greatest hits I try to think about the
moments that were wonderful where I
loved them and they loved me and like
there was joy and there was connection
and I I don't know why you'd choose not
to you know it's there's that old Axiom
I don't know who said it that
if you don't learn to find joy in the
snow you'll have you'll have less joy in
your life and precisely the same amount
of snow
and I genuinely believe like okay the
relationship ends this is where it ends
we're done now
I I am making a choice as to how I will
remember you and and we do it in
relationships like I I always tell
people you know if you ever want to see
a couple light up if they're ever like
the couple at the table that's you know
it seems like they got in a fight or
something ask them how they met
and most people when they talk about how
they met like their face softens they
both in the other person looking at them
telling the story gets that look you
were talking about before and because
they remember that thing and how they
felt at that moment and when when this
person was a choice
not a default not their automatic plus
one but the person they asked to the
wedding not though of course you're
bringing her it's your wife you bring
your fucking wife places like it was
still hey there's like you know three
and a half billion women and I'm picking
you you know like that that feeling and
and I don't know when why when a
relationship ends
you can't do that a lesson I learned
when my mother passed away of a very
two-year terrible battle with cancer and
was on hospice and was very very sick
and it was a very slow and awful end
and I remember one of my worst fears was
that this is how I would remember my
mother for the rest of my life that I
would never be able to think of her that
I didn't think of what she had become in
the last months where she was withered
away to nothing in this bed you know
and I learned over time that memory is
very kind that like that faded somehow
and that now like when I remember her I
remember her healthy and vibrant I
remember her laughter I remember
positive things some of that is I like
to look at photos of that or but some of
it is just how I think memory works and
I I don't know why we don't apply that
to relationships and I think part of it
is because we have this binary view of
relationships that it's either success
which means you live happily ever after
for the rest of your lives and die
together
or like in short succession
or it was wrong it was awful and I I
don't understand why that would have to
be how we do it I think we could look at
relationships like what they are which
is Chapters
in a book
and that book is our life
and those chapters all have significance
and none of them would have the later
chapters none of them would happen
without the prior ones so there's this
beauty of me of that and it's I don't
know if that it's a choice
or if that is how it is and the rest is
just narrative that we've put on top of
it culturally for some reason well I
think to push back a little bit I think
memory
can also I think it is a deliberate
choice because I think memory can
basically that's how trauma works it can
Surface the negative stuff and the
negative stuff completely drowns out all
the positives so it's I think
uh uh it's a deliberate choice to make
your memory probably work that way you
know in relationships betrayal can do
that right sort of uh cheating
infidelity
like one event
can almost erase the entirety of your
uh understanding of the past and all the
memories are sort of shrouded in this
darkness of okay this what I believed
was true is totally untrue and started
to overcome that and still appreciate
the Beautiful Moments I'm
continually astounded
by how
long the hurt and anger of betrayal can
reverberate
I I have clients who were four years
five years passed when the divorce ended
the cheating was discovered and they're
as angry as they were the day they found
out
and and I
I don't know what that's about
yeah because I also have clients that
they like look back on it and they go
you know
we screwed up like we were you know we
didn't do the best but we did the best
we could do at the time and you know we
like there should be stars for Wars like
ours you know there should be champagne
for the survival yeah that's beautiful
like we made it through you know like we
survived it and we were fools and we
were fools for love and there are worse
things in the world to be fools for it
but I I also do think that most
relationships where there was infidelity
and it's not a it's not a popular thing
to say and I'll get i'll get pilloried
for it but great you know
I just don't
know and I don't want to blame the
victim of infidelity
but was the relationship really where it
needed to be like had were you truly the
most just dutiful spouse who was seeing
this person's needs be met again we've
established in the granola story that
people can sometimes with good
intentions not be meeting their
partner's needs or perceiving their
partner's needs or their partner isn't
communicating them the right way or all
of the above
but
I I've rarely seen very happy content
couples that cheat on each other
and so I I understand there's a shame in
saying this person cheated on me or I
cheated on this person
because I represent you know I represent
I represent the cheater and I represent
the cheated I represent the victim of
domestic violence I represent the
perpetrator of domestic violence I
represent the person with the substance
use disorder the person married to the
person so I I don't get to choose the
white or the black hat like I have my
client and that's my client
and and it forces me to put myself into
their story from their point of view
and I think that kind of radical empathy
that you need to engage in on a daily
basis to represent people in those kinds
of proceedings
it just I don't know it's it it just
doesn't seem like there's good guys and
bad guys you know it just seems like
it's complicated
and people's intentions and where they
actually end up are different yeah I
think there's some sense in uh still
remembering the Betrayal as it being a
symptom of taking life a little too
seriously too seriously where you don't
uh life shouldn't be taken that
seriously you should be able to laugh at
it all I like the story you say you know
be able able to appreciate the battle
that should give stars for those kind of
wars that we fought and just kind of be
able to laugh at it all especially with
love like life's just so absurd yeah
like it's so it's just crazy it's so
crazy I mean like I don't I you know I I
think it's funny I think
this is real Candor but you know as a
man like there's nothing funnier than
when you finish masturbating you know
there's no more humbling moment and I
like to think about the fact that like
the richest famous most powerful person
in the world they jerk off
you know the most powerful man in the
world jerks off I'm sure you know all of
them do I mean you probably know them so
you could ask but in that moment where
you just you come and you go
what am I doing like what the now I
gotta wipe that like oh holy good Lord
and there's this feeling of but a second
ago this seemed like a great idea and it
was by the way it was a great idea but
but you there's this moment this Satori
you know where you just go
oh like what this is so silly well like
that's love that's sex like it's crazy
like when you read
other people's infidelity
the text messages the emails because I
have to do that all the time and I'll
tell you how we make the sausage
in the divorce lawyer's office this some
of the most entertaining moments is
dramatic readings allowed of people's
infidelity exchanges but they're lovers
the sexts yeah the sects and uh the like
you know like it's just so ridiculous
because people have to go through like
all kinds of gymnastics to be able to
meet and have sex in weird places and
you know
and you're reading this and you're
reading these texts and you gotta go
like oh my God and by the way like I've
represented some very powerful people
and you read their texts with their
lover or even their spouse like even
their spouse you know
and they're just pathetic I mean they're
just like so not powerful they're so
like hey babe you know I I have a I have
a name totally nameless I have a very
powerful wealthy famous former client
where there's a whole series of texts
about is my dick weird
which by the way I think the answer is
if you have to ask if you have a weird
dick the answer is probably yes because
I've I've owned one and I've never
thought is this weird
but but I I
the fact that you're having this
discussion like it's absurd it's
hilarious like love is hilarious it's
bizarre it's such a weird vulnerability
it's such a a basic visceral human need
you know it it really is something that
we just
you know it's mysterious it it it but it
but it doesn't have to be that
complicated I don't think that even
betrayal like I said it doesn't have to
be that complicated I think we can frame
it differently yeah you can laugh with
the whole thing I mean I
I think what we don't often do with
ourselves
is uh look back at text or look back at
emails or look back at Google search I
did that recently just look at what I
searched for like 10 years ago 15 it's
like forget last week just look at your
Google searches
last week and you're like wait a minute
what why did you just search for this
right 50 times right like why did The
Karate Kid 3 pop in yeah exactly why and
like you're like where's Ralph Macchio
now and where who is he dating yeah uh
wise and his mother and then yeah and
then you're like in a restaurant nearby
yeah like how did I go from this to that
but but it made sense at the time so so
when you ask someone
how did our relationship Fall Apart
it's like looking at the Google search
history of yourself from tenure you
don't even know why you were thinking
about those things yeah and now you want
to understand why you did what you did
felt what you felt she felt what she
felt she did what she did and why the
two of you how you impacted each other
and interacted with each really you
think that's doable
but you've so you've in in the courtroom
does that come up like text messages
that resulted in uh with whoever you're
cheating with yeah I mean you know
cheating doesn't come up as much because
most states are no fault States now so
why someone's getting divorced whether
it's infidelity or you know it doesn't
matter there's no good spouse bonus or
bad spouse penalty well there isn't I
mean you know I'm wearing that like
that's well you can have we've had times
where we have to prove infidelity
because we want to prove what's called
wasteful dissipation of marital assets
which means that you were spending money
that was marital money on a Paramore
That's What the legal name for a ex you
know for a boyfriend or girlfriend in
the marriage and usually the person
calls it you know that whore or that
piece of shit but we call them Paramore
yeah the Paramore yeah and the the the
you know sometimes we have to prove
inclination and opportunity we have to
prove that this person had the
inclination to cheat and that they had
the opportunity to cheat and then we
want to show that okay so when they went
away that should be considered
dissipation and marital assets so if you
go out to dinner with your brother you
didn't dissipate the marital estate but
if you bought your Paramore a Tiffany
bracelet that would be a dissipation
marital assets and the person's entitled
to a credit back for that from what was
taken out of the marital estate so we do
sometimes have to authenticate text
messages on the witness stand or in
depositions you know and what's
interesting about that is the way people
approach it like people sometimes try to
pretend oh no this is just my good
friend you know and which is just like
you kill your credibility you know if
you oh no she's just my very good friend
she's not she's not that makes no sense
whatsoever for or no we were just
friends at that point and then several
months later is when we once this
marriage was over that's when we got
together as partner right that's
ridiculous
but sometimes people just own it just
own it like I did a deposition of an
executive once and
you know opposing counsel like thought
they were going to really hit them they
were like and looking at this credit
card receipt what was this charge for
for this hotel he was like oh that was
for a hotel room that I got with uh with
my girlfriend
and you were married yes yes what did
you where did you stay at the hotel it
was we didn't even stay we actually just
did like an afternoon delight rolled
around in bed for the day
yeah and it was like well now you know
took all the Thunder out of that what's
the downside of doing that that seems
like there wasn't it actually I think
helped his credibility it was my client
so I thought it was the right move we
hadn't really discussed it in advance
but he he was naturally intelligent
enough to go yeah my credibility like
I'm not gonna lie under oath I'll admit
what it was but I'll do it in such an
you know we did it like at the end like
Eminem at the end of eight mile like it
was very like yeah I cheated on her with
this person now tell these people
something they don't know about me you
know and and that's kind of how I try to
as a trial lawyer we we actually in my
firm refer to it as the Eight Mile
strategy which is like we will if I know
there was a text message sent you know
you piece of shit I hope you die my
client sent that text message to his
co-parent
I I on my examination of my client I
will say I'd like to have this marked
for identification shown to the witness
what is that it's a text message
who's it to
uh plaintiff
you sent it yeah read it out loud for
the court
oh do I have to
I think you should
uh you're a piece of uh s does it say s
no what does it say well it's a
profanity so you say it
uh you piece of shit I hope that you die
yeah you sent that to her yes why
I was really mad do you think that was
good
no do you think it's helpful to your
co-parenting relationship with her
no why did you send it then
you know she sent me like 50 texts
exactly like that and I never responded
and I pushed it down every time and then
finally I just blew up at her if you had
it to do over again would you do it
differently you know I wish I could say
I would but the truth is I'm human and I
was at my limits and I'm watching
opposing counsel cross out entire sheets
of their cross-examination because it's
gone now they thought that they had
their like Perry Mason moment they had
their like did you order the code red
moments and it's gone now because if you
just own and accept your fault or your
issues in the relationship
you can take a lot of the power out of
that
and I wish we wouldn't take text
seriously
I don't