Kind: captions
Language: en
listen when it comes to romantic
relationships if it's not a hundred
percent in you
it ain't happening and I've never seen
a violation of that statement
where it's like it yeah it's mostly good
and they're this is like the
negotiations well already you're you're
it's doomed and that doesn't mean
someone has to be perfect the
relationship has to be perfect but it's
got to feel 100 inside like yes yes and
yes
the following is a conversation with my
dear friend Andrew huberman his fourth
time on this podcast it's my birthday so
this is a special birthday episode of
sorts Andrew flew down to Austin just to
wish me happy birthday and we decided to
do a podcast last second we literally
talked for hours beforehand in a long
time after late into the night he's one
of my favorite human beings brilliant
scientists incredible teacher and a
loyal friend I'm grateful for Andrew I'm
grateful for good friends for all the
support and love I've gotten over the
past few years
I'm truly grateful for this life for the
years the days the minutes the seconds
I've gotten to live on this beautiful
Earth of ours I really don't want to
leave just yet
I think I'd really like to stick around
I love you all
this is the last treatment podcast and
now dear friends here's Andrew
huberman
trying to uh
run a little bit more are you losing
weight I'm not trying to lose weight but
I always do the same Fitness routine
after like 30 years basically uh lift
three days a week run three days a week
um but one of the runs is the long run
one of them's medium one of them's a
Sprint type thing so
um what I've decided to do this year was
just extend the duration of the long run
and
um I like being a mobile I I never want
to be
um so heavy that I can't move like like
I want to be able to go out and run 10
miles if I have to so sometimes I do
um and I want to be able to Sprint if I
have to so sometimes I do and um lifting
in objects is feels good it feels good
to train like a lazy bear and just lift
heavy objects but I've also started
training with lighter weights and higher
repetitions and
um for three month cycles and it gives
your joints a rest and um yeah so
probably you know it I think it also is
interesting to see how training
differently changes your cognition
that's probably hormone related you know
hormones Downstream of training heavy
versus hormones Downstream of training a
little bit lighter
um I think my cognition is better when
I'm doing more cardio and when the
repetition ranges are a little bit
higher which is not to say that people
who lift heavy are dumb but there is a
because there's real value in lifting
heavy there's a lot of angry people
listening to this right now no no no but
lifting heavy and then taking three to
five minutes rest is Far and Away a
different
challenge than running hard for 90
minutes
that's a tough thing just like getting
in an ice bath people say oh well how is
that any different than working out
um well there are a lot of differences
but one of them is that it's very acute
stress within one second you're stressed
so I I think subjecting the body to a
bunch of different types of stressors in
space and time is really valuable so
yeah I've been playing with the
variables in a pretty systematic way
well I like long and slow
for like you said the impact it has on
my cognition yeah it it uh the
wordlessness of it
um the way it puts you in in a the way
it seems to
um clean out the Clutter yeah you know
um it can take away that hyper focus and
put you more in a relaxed
Focus for sure well for me it brings the
Clutter to the surface at first like all
these thoughts come in there and then
they dissipate you know I've been uh
because I got knee barred pretty hard
that's when somebody tries to break here
they try and break your knee yeah
because you tap so they yeah yeah yeah
so it's you know hyper extend they need
that direction the guy knee barred
pretty hard so um in ways I don't
understand it kind of hurts to run I
don't understand what's happening behind
there I need to investigate this
it basically this the hamstring Flex
like curling your leg hurts a little bit
okay and that results in this weird doll
but sometimes extremely sharp pain in
the back of the knee so I'm I'm working
I'm I'm working through this anyway but
walking doesn't hurt so I've been
playing around with walking recently
like for two hours and thinking because
I know a lot of like
smart people throughout history have
walked and thought you have to like you
know play with things that have worked
for others not just to exercise but to
like integrate this very light kind of
prolonged exercise into a productive
life so they do all their thinking while
they walk it's like a meditative type of
walking it's it's really interesting it
really works yeah the um the practice
I've been doing a lot more of lately as
I walk while reading a book in the yard
I'll just Pace back and forth or walk in
a circle audiobook are you talking no
hard copy where you just holding I
holding the book and I'm walking and I'm
reading yeah and I usually have a pen
and I'm underlining I have this whole
system like underlining Stars
exclamation points goes back to
University of what things I'll go back
to
um which things I export to notes and
that kind of thing
um but from the beginning when I opened
my lab at that time in San Diego before
I moved back to Stanford
um I would have meetings with my
students or postdocs by just walking in
the field behind the lab
um you know and I'd bring my Bulldog
Costello yeah Bulldog Mastiff at the
time and he was a slow Walker so these
were slow walks but I can think much
more clearly that way there's a Nobel
prize-winning uh professor at Columbia
University School of Medicine Richard
Axel who won the Nobel Prize co1 Nobel
Prize with Linda Buck for the discovery
of the molecular basis of olfaction and
um he walks in voice dictates his papers
and now with rev or these other maybe
there are better ones um than rev where
you can convert audio files into text
very quickly and then edit from there so
I I will often voice dictate
um first drafts and things like that and
um I totally agree on the long runs the
walks the integrating that with
cognitive work harder to do with Sprints
um and then the gym you know are you do
you weight train you just seem naturally
strong and like thicker jointed it's
true yeah it's true I when we did the
one very beginner because I'm a very
beginner of Jiu Jitsu class together
and um yeah as I mentioned then uh but
if people missed it uh Alexis freakishly
strong I think I was born genetically to
hug people oh like Costello yeah exactly
you guys have a certain similarity he
had wrists like you know it's like you
and Jocko and Costello have these like
wrists and and elbows that are super
thick you know and then when you look
around you see tremendous variation you
know some people have like the the
um wrist uh width of a whippet or Woody
Allen and then other people like you or
Jocko or you know there's this one uh
Jocko video or thing on GQ or something
Have you seen the comments on Jocko
these are the best
um the comments I love the comments on
YouTube because occasionally they're
funny
um the best is uh when shock was born
the doctor looked at his uh parents and
said it's a man
it's like Chuck Norris type comments
yeah yeah those are great um that's what
I miss about Rogan being on YouTube with
the full-length episodes oh that
comments so this is technically a
birthday podcast uh what do you love
most about getting older
it's like a it the confirmation
that comes from
getting more and more data which
basically says yeah the first time you
thought that thing it was actually right
because the second third and fourth and
fifth time
um it turned out the exact same way in
other words
um there have been a few times in my
life where
I did not feel
easy about something I did I felt
a signal for my body this is not good
um and I didn't trust it early on but I
knew it was there
and then
two or three
bad experiences later
I'm able to say ah every single time
there was a signal from the body
informing my mind
this is not good
now the reverse has also been true that
there have been a number of instances in
which I feel sort of immediate delight
and there's this kind of almost
astonishingly
simple experience of feeling comfortable
with somebody or at peace with something
or delighted at an experience and it
turns out all
literally all of those experiences and
people turned out to be experiences in
people that are still in my life and
that I
um still Delight in every day in other
words what's great about getting older
is that you stop questioning
the signals that come from the I think
deeper recesses of your nervous system
to say hey this is not good or hey this
is great more of this whereas I think in
my teens
my 20s my 30s I'm 40 almost 48 I'll be
48 next month
um
I I didn't trust I didn't listen I
actually put a lot of work into
overriding those signals and learning to
fight through them thinking that somehow
that was making me tougher or somehow
that was making me
um smarter when in fact in the end those
people that you meet that are you know
difficult or you know there are other
names for it you know it's like in here
like in the end you're like you're not a
person's piece of you know or
um this person is amazing and they're
really wonderful and I felt that from go
so you've learned to trust your gut
versus like the the influences of other
people's opinions um I've learned to
trust my gut versus the uh the forebrain
over analysis overriding the gut other
people often in my life have had great
Optics
right I've I've benefited tremendously
from an early age of being in a large
community of well it's been mostly guys
by some close female friends and always
have as well who will tell me that's a
bad decision where this person not so
good or be careful or they're great or
that's great so oftentimes my community
and the people around me have been more
aligned with the correct Choice than not
really yes really when you were younger
like like transparents and so on
I don't recall ever really listening to
my parents that much you know I grew up
in a you know we don't have to go back
to my childhood thing but my sense thank
you I learned that recently in a
psilocybin Journey
um my first my first high-dose
psilocybin Journey which was um welcome
back done with a clinician thank you
very much thank you I was worried there
for a second at one point in my not
coming back but in in any event
um yeah I grew up with some wild kids
you know I would say about a third of my
friends from childhood or dead or in
jail
um about a third have gone on to do
tremendously impressive things start
companies excellent athletes academics
um scientists and um and clinicians and
and then about a third are living their
lives has become more typical I just
mean um that they are happy family
people uh with jobs that they mainly
um serve the function to make money
they're not sort of career into their
career for career's sake but
um
so some of my friends early on gave me
some bad ideas
um but most of the time my bad ideas
came from
um
overriding the signals that I knew that
my body and I would say my body and
brain were telling me uh to obey and no
I say body and brain is that there's
this brain region the insula which um
that does many things but it represents
our sense of internal uh sensation in
terreception and I was talking to Paul
Conti about this you know as who as you
know
um I trim respect tremendously I think
he's one of the smartest people I've
ever met
um I think for different reasons he and
Mark Andreessen are some of the like
smartest people I've ever met but Paul's
level of insight into the human psyche
is is absolutely astounding and um and
um he
says the opposite of what most
people say about the brain which is most
people say oh the supercomputer of the
brain is the forebrain it's like a
monkey brain with a extra real estate
put on there and the forebrain is what
makes us human
um and gives us our our superpowers Paul
has said
um and he's done a whole series on
Mental Health that's coming out from our
uh podcast in September so this is not
an attempt to plug that but he'll
elaborate wait you're doing a thing with
fall we already did yeah so Paul oh nice
yeah so Paul Conte shot up uh we did it
he and I sat down he did a four episode
series on Mental Health this is not
mental illness mental health about how
to explore one's own subconscious
explore the self build and cultivate
um the generative Drive you'll learn
more about what that is from him he's
far more eloquent um and and clearer
than I am
um and he provides essentially a a set
of steps to explore the self that does
not require that you work with a
therapist this is self-exploration that
that is rooted in
Psychiatry it's rooted in neuroscience
and I don't think this information
exists anywhere else I'm not aware that
it exists anywhere else and um he
essentially distills it all down to one
uh eight and a half by eleven sheet
which we provide for people and
um
he says there I don't want to give too
much away because it I would detract
from what he does so beautifully but if
I tried and I want to accomplish it
anyway
um but he said and I believe that the
subconscious is the super computer of
the brain all the stuff working
underneath our conscious awareness
that's driving our feelings and our what
we think are the decisions that we've
thought through so carefully and that
only by exploring the subconscious and
understanding it a little bit
um can we actually uh
improve ourselves over time and I agree
I think that so that the mistake is to
think that thinking can override at all
it's a certain style of introspection
and thinking that um allows us to read
the signals from our body read the
signals from our brain integrate the the
knowledge that we're collecting about
ourselves and and to use all that in
ways that are really adaptive and
generative for us what do you think is
there in that subconscious well what do
you think of the younging as Shadow is
what what's there you know there's this
idea you're familiar with too I'm sure
that this jungian idea that there we all
have all things inside of us that all of
us have the capacity to be evil to be
good Etc but that some people Express
one or the other to a greater extent but
he also mentioned that there's a unique
category of people maybe two to five
percent of people that don't just have
all things inside of them but they
actually spend a lot of time exploring a
lot of those things the darker recesses
the Shadows their own Shadows
um
you know I'm somebody who's drawn to
goodness and to light into joy and all
those things like anybody else but I
think
um maybe it's part of how I grew up
maybe it was the crowd I was with
um
um maybe but then again you know even
when I started spending more time with
academics and scientists I mean
um you see shadows in other ways right
you see pure ambition with no passion I
I recall a colleague
um in San Diego who it was very clear to
me did not actually care about
understanding the brain but
understanding the brain was just his
Avenue to exercise ambition and if you
give him something else to work on he'd
work on that in fact he did he left and
he worked on something else I realized
he has no passion for understanding the
brain like all the I assumed all
scientists do certainly why I went into
it but some people it's just raw
ambition it's about winning it doesn't
even matter what they win to which to me
is crazy but I think that's a shadow
that some people explore not when I've
explored
um I think the shadow parts of us are
very important to come to understand and
look better to understand them and know
that they're there
and work with them then to not
acknowledge their presence and have them
surface in the form of addictions or
behaviors that um that damage Us in
other people so one of the processes for
achieving mental health is to bring
those things to the surface so fish the
subconscious mind yes and um and you
know he Paul describes 10 cupboards that
one can look into for exploring the self
there's the structure of self and the
function of self again this will all be
spelled out in the series in a lot of
detail also in terms of its relational
aspect between people how to pick good
partners and good relationship gets
really into this from a very different
perspective
um yeah fascinating stuff I was just
sitting there just I will say this that
that four episode series with Paul
is at least to date the most important
work I've ever been involved in
in all of my career because it's very
clear that we are not taught how to
explore our subconscious yeah and that
very few people actually understand how
to do that even most psychiatrists he
has a uh he mentioned something about
psychiatrists you know if you're a
cardiothoracic surgeon or something like
that and 50 of your patients die you're
considered a bad cardiothoracic surgeon
but with no disrespect to psychiatrists
there are there are some excellent
psychiatrists out there they're also a
lot of terrible psychiatrists out there
because unless all of those all of their
patients commit suicide or half commit
suicide they can treat for a long time
without it becoming visible that they're
not so good at their craft now he's
superb at his craft and
um I think he would say that yes
exploring some Shadows but also just
understanding the self like what what
you know really under understanding like
like who am I and and what's important
what are my ambitions what are my
striving again I'm lifting from some of
the things that that he'll describe
exactly how to do this
people do not spend enough time
addressing those questions and as a
consequence they discover what resides
in their subconscious through the
sometimes bad hopefully all also good
but um manifestations of their actions
they're we are driven by this huge
ninety percent of our real estate that
is not visible to our conscious
awareness and we we need to understand
that you know I've talked about this
before I've done therapy twice a week
since I was a kid I had to as a
condition of being let back in school
um I continue I found a way to either
through insurance or even when I didn't
have insurance I took an extra job
writing for Thrasher magazine when I was
a postdoc so I could pay for therapy at
a discount because I didn't make much
money as a postdoc I mean I think for me
it's as important as going to the gym
and people think it's just you know
ruminating on problems or getting
somewhere no no if you work with
somebody really good they're forcing you
to ask questions about who you really
are what you really want
um it's not just about support but there
should be support there should be
Rapport but then it's also
there should be Insight right most
people who get therapy they're getting
support there's rapport but Insight is
not easy to arrive at and a really good
psychologist or psychiatrist can help
you arrive at Deep insights that
transform your entire life well
sometimes when I look inside and I do
this often
you know exploring who you truly are you
come to this question
do I accept once you see parts do I
accept this or do I fix this is this a
is this who you are fundamentally
and it will always be this way or is
this a problem to be fixed like for
example one of the things
especially recently but in general over
time I've discovered about myself
probably has roots in childhood probably
has roots and a lot of things as I
deeply value loyalty
maybe more than the average person and
so when there's disloyalty it can be
painful to me and so this is who I am
and so do I have to
relax a bit
do I have to fix this part or is this
who you are and there's a million that's
one like little I think loyalty is a
good thing to cling to provided that
when loyalty is broken that it doesn't
um disrupt too many other areas of your
life but it depends also on who's
disrupting that loyalty if it's a
co-worker versus a romantic partner
versus your exclusive romantic partner
depending on the structure of your
romantic partner life you know I mean I
have always experienced extreme
um
joy and feelings of safety and Trust in
my friendships again mostly male
friendships what female friendships do
which is only to say that they were
mostly male friendships the female
friendships have also been very loyal
um let you know so getting backstabbed
is not something I'm familiar with
um and yeah I love being crewed up you
know yeah no for sure and I'm with you
and you know you and I are very much
have the same values on this but you
know that's one little thing and then
there's many other things like I'm
extremely self-critical and you look at
my you know I look at myself as I'm
regularly very self-critical there's a
self-critical engine in my brain and I
talked to actually Paul about this I
think on the podcast quite a bit and
he's saying this is a really bad thing
like you need to fix this you need to be
able to be regularly very uh positive
about yourself and I kept disagreeing
with them no this is like who I am like
you and it seems to work don't mess with
the thing that seems to be working it's
fine like I oscillate between being
really grateful and really self-critical
but then you have to like figure out
what is it maybe is there's a deeper
root thing there's maybe there's an
insecurity in there somewhere that has
to do with childhood and are you trying
to prove something to somebody from your
childhood this kind of thing well a
couple things that I think are
hopefully valuable for people here one
is
um
one way to destroy your life is to spend
time trying to control your or somebody
else's past
um so much of our destructive Behavior
and thinking comes from wanting
something that we saw or did or heard
to not be true
rather than really working with that and
getting close to what it really was and
you know sometimes those things are even
traumatic and we need to really get
close to them and and re for them to
move through us and and that you know
there are a bunch of different ways to
do that with support from others and
hopefully but sometimes on our own as
well I don't think we can rewire our
deep preferences and what we find
Despicable or joyful
I do think that
it's really a question of what allows us
peace like can you be at peace with the
fact that you're very self-critical and
enjoy that get some distance from it
have a sense of humor about it or is it
driving you in a way that's keeping you
awake at night and yeah um and forcing
you back to the table to do work in a
way that feels self-flagellating and
doesn't feel good
um you know can you get that humility
and awareness of how you're you know of
your one's flaws and I think that that
can create you know this word space
sounds very new age you like get space
from it you know you can have a sense of
humor about how how neurotic we can all
be I mean you know neurotic isn't
actually a bad term in the classic sense
of the psychologists and psychiatrists
the freudians said that you know the
best case is to be neurotic to actually
see one's own issues and work with them
whereas psychotic is the other is the
other way to be uh which is obviously
not good so I think um the question
whether or not to work on something or
to
um just accept it as part of ourselves I
think really depends if we feel like
it's holding us back or not and I I
think you're asking perhaps the most
profound question about being a human
which is you know what what do you do
with your body what do you do with your
mind I mean if you it's also a question
we started off talking about Fitness a
little bit we just for whatever reason
um you know
do I need to run an Ultra
you Marathon no I don't feel like I need
to
um David
Goggins does and and does a whole lot
more than that so that for him that's
important for me it's not important to
do that I don't think he does it just so
he can run the Ultras
um there's clearly something else in
there for him and guys like Kim Haynes
and and uh tremendous respect for for
what they do and how they do it
um
does one need to make their body more
muscular stronger more endurance more
flexibility do you need to read harder
books do you need to I think doing hard
things feels good
um I think it I know it feels good I
know that the worse I feel the worst way
to feel
is when I'm procrastinating and I don't
do something and then whenever I do
something and I complete it and I break
through that point where it was hard and
then I'm doing it at the end I actually
feel like I was infused with some sort
of
um super chemical and who knows if it's
probably a cocktail of endogenously made
chemicals but I think it is good to do
hard things but you have to be careful
not to destroy your body your mind in
the process and I think it's about
whether or not you can achieve peace can
you sleep well at night stress isn't bad
if you can sleep well at night you can
be stressed all day go go go go go go go
go and it'll optimize your focus but can
you fall asleep and stay deeply sleep at
night
um being in a hard relationship some
people say you know
that that's not good other people like
it can you be at peace in that and I
think uh we all you know I have
different RPM that you know we all kind
of idle at different RPM and
um some people are big mellow costellos
and others are kind of like you know
need more friction in order to to feel
at peace but I think ultimately what we
want is to feel at peace
I have um been through some really low
points over the past couple years and I
think
the reason could be boiled out
to the fact that I haven't been able to
find a place of peace a a place or
people or moments that give deep inner
peace
I yeah I you know
and I think you put it really
beautifully it's uh you have to figure
out given Who You Are
the various
um characteristics of your mind all the
things all the contents of the cupboards
uh how to how to get space from it and
ultimately one good representation of
that is to be able to laugh at all of it
whatever whatever's going on inside your
mind to be able to step back and just
kind of chuckle at the at the beauty and
the absurdity of the whole thing yeah
and keep going there's this beautiful uh
as I mentioned seems like every podcast
lately
um I'm a huge rancid fan mostly because
I just think Tim Armstrong's writing is
is pure poetry and whether or not you
like the music or not
um you know and he's written on music
for a lot of other people too he's not
doesn't advertise that much because he's
humble but I end up by the way I went to
a show of theirs like 20 years ago yeah
I'm going to see them in Boston in
September 18th I'm literally flying
there for for
um uh or I'll take the train up from New
York I'm gonna meet a friend of mine
named Jim thibo who's a big guy who owns
a lot of companies in skateboard
industry um we're meeting there like a
couple little kids to go see them play
amazing amazing people amazing music
music very intense very intense and but
embodies all the different emotions
that's why I love it right they have
some love songs they have some hate
songs they have some and um but you know
there's a going back to what you said I
think there's a there's a Psalm the
first song on the Indestructible album I
think it there's a
um it's sort of he's just talking about
like shock and disbelief of discovering
things about people that were close to
you and you know it's
um I won't I won't sing it but you know
nor I wouldn't dare but um but there's
this one lyric where that's really stuck
in my mind for for ever since that album
came out in 2003 which is
um you know
that nothing's what it seems so I just
sit here laughing I'm gonna keep going
on I can't get distracted there is this
piece of like you got to learn how to
push out the disturbing stuff sometimes
and go forward and I mean I remember
hearing that lyric and and then writing
it down and you know that was a time
where my undergraduate advisor who was
like a a mentor and a father to me you
know blew his head off in the bathtub
like three weeks before and then my
graduate advisor who I was working for
at that time who I loved and adored was
really like a mother to me I knew her
when she was pregnant with her two kids
died at 50. breast cancer and then my
postdoc advisor you know first day of
work at Stanford as a faculty member
sitting across the table like this from
him had a heart attack right in front of
me died of pancreatic cancer at the end
of 2017. I remember just thinking like
you know going back to that song lyric
over and over like and where people
would
um you know I haven't had many betrayals
in life I've had a few but just thinking
like we're seeing something or learning
something about something you just like
you can't believe it and I I I mentioned
that that lyric off that first song
Indestructible on that album because
it's this the emo like just the raw
emotion of like I can't believe this
what I just saw is so disturbing
but I have to just keep going forward
there are certain things that we really
do need to push not just into our
periphery but often to The Gutter and
keep going and that's a hard thing to
learn how to do but
if you're going to be functional in life
you have to and actually just to get at
this issue of do I change or do I
embrace this aspect of self
um about six months it was April
um
of this last year I did some intense
work around some things that were really
challenging to me and I did it alone and
it may have involved some medicine and I
expected to get peace through this I was
like I'm gonna let go of that and I
spent 11 hours just getting more and
more frustrated and angry about this
thing that I was trying to resolve and I
was so unbelievably disappointed that I
couldn't get that relief and I was like
what is this like this is not how this
is supposed to work
I'm supposed to be feel peace the clouds
are supposed to lift and so a week went
by
and then another half week went by and
then someone who I whose opinion I trust
very much I explained this to them
because I was getting a little concerned
like what's going on this is worse not
better and they said this is very simple
you have a giant blind spot
which is your sense of justice Andrew
and your sense of anger are linked like
an iron rod
and you need to relax it
and as they said that I felt the anger
dissipate and so there was something
that I think is it is true I have a very
strong sense of justice and my sense of
anger
then at least uh was very strongly
linked to it so it's great to have a
sense of justice right I hate to see
people wrong I absolutely do and I'm
human I'm sure I've wronged people in my
life I know I have they've told me I've
tried to apologize and reconcile where
possible still have a lot of work to do
um but
where I see Injustice it draws in my
sense of anger in a way that I think is
just eating me up and but it was only in
hearing that link that I wasn't aware of
before it was in my subconscious
obviously
um did I feel the relaxation it wasn't
there's no amount of plant medicine or
MDMA or any kind of you know chemical
you can take that's naturally just going
to dissipate what's hard for oneself it
needs if one Embraces that or if one
chooses to do it through just talk
therapy or journaling or friends or
introspection or all of the above there
needs to be an awareness of the things
that we're just not aware of so I think
the answer to your question do you
Embrace or do you fight these aspects of
self is
um I think you get in your subconscious
through good work with somebody skilled
or and sometimes that involves the tools
I just mentioned in various combinations
and you figure it out you figure out if
it's serving you obviously it was not
bringing me peace it was undermining my
my sense of justice was undermining my
sense of peace and so in understanding
this link be now I would say that the in
understanding this link between Justice
and anger now I think it's a little bit
more of like uh
you know it's not like a Twizzler stick
bendy but it's at least it's not like an
iron Rod like you know when I see
somebody wronged I mean it used to just
like like immediately but you're able to
step back now that's like to me the
ultimate place to reach
is laughter
I just sit here laughing exactly that's
that's the lyric I like I can't believe
it so I just sit here laughing like
can't get distracted just you just at
some point but the but the problem I
think in just laughing at something like
that gives you distance
but the question is
does do you stop engaging with it at
that point like I experienced this I
mean recently I got to see how sometimes
I'll see something that's just like what
like this is crazy so I just laugh but
then I continue to engage in it and it's
taking me off of course and so there is
a place where you know I mean I get
realize this is probably a kids show too
so I want to keep it you know G-rated
but it at some point for certain things
it makes sense to go
that but also laugh at yourself for
saying that yeah and then move on
so the question is are you you get stuck
or do you move on sure right sure but
like there's a lightness of being that
comes with laughter I mean I've gotten
sure like as you know I spent the day
with Elon today he just gave me this
burnt hair do you know what this is I
have no idea I'm sure there's actually
this it should be a human lab episode on
this it's a cologne that's burnt hair
and it's like supposedly a really
intense smell and it is to please it's
not gonna leave you or no that's okay
well that's okay I'll take a whiff it as
if you have a chemical spray it on
yourself because I don't know if you can
so I'm reading an amazing book yeah
called an immense World by Ed young he
won a Pulitzer for uh we contain
multitudes or something like that I
think it's the title of the other book
um and the first chapter is all battle
faction and the incredible power that
olfaction has
that smells terrible I mean it doesn't
leave you ah for those listening it
doesn't quite smell terrible it's just
intense and it stays with you
this this to me represents like just
laughing at the absurdity of it all so I
have to ask so you were rolling Jiu
Jitsu yeah so is that fight between
um Elon and and azak actually going to
happen I think Elon is a huge believer
of this idea of uh the most entertaining
outcome is the most likely
and he almost like there's
almost the sense that there's not a free
will and the universe has a kind of
deterministic
gravitational field pulling towards the
most fun
and he's just a player in that game so
from that perspective I think it seems
like something like that is inevitable
like like a little scrap in the parking
lot of Facebook or something like
exactly sorry meta yeah but it looks
like they're they're training for real
and Zuck has competed right Jiu Jitsu so
um I think he is approaching it as a
sport yeah Elon is approaching it as a
spectacle and I mean the way he talks
about it he's a huge fan of History he
talks about all the Warriors that have
fought throughout history if you look he
wants to really do it at the Coliseum
and you know the Coliseum is for 400
years I was there's so many so much
great writing about this
um I think over 400 000 people have died
in the Coliseum Gladiators so this is
this historic place that sheds so much
blood so much fear so much anticipation
of battle all of this so he loves this
kind of spectacle and also the uh the
meme of it a hilarious absurdity of it
the two Tech CEOs are battling it out on
sand in a place where Gladiators fought
to the death and then Bears and Lions
eight prisoners as part of the execution
process what's also going to be an
instance where Mark Zuckerberg and Elon
Musk has changed bodily fluids
they bleed this one thing's about
fighting you know I think it was in um
that book it's great book a Fighter's
heart where he talks about you know sort
of the intimacy of of sparring I have I
only rolled Jiu Jitsu with you once but
there was a period of time where I boxed
and um which I don't recommend
um I got hit I hit some guys and I
definitely got hit back
um I'd Spar on Wednesday nights when I
lived on San Diego
um and
um you know when you spar with somebody
even if they hurt you especially if they
hurt you you know you see that person
afterwards and there's there's an
intimacy right you're it was it was in
that book Fire's heart where he explains
you know you're exchanging bodily fluids
with a stranger right and CR there's a
you're in your primitive mind and so
there's an intimacy there that that
persists so you go together through a
process of fear anxiety like yeah when
they get you you nod I mean you watch
somebody like catch somebody if you know
not so much in professional fighting but
if people are sparring that they catch
you you acknowledge that they caught you
like you got me there and on the flip
side of that so we trained and then
after that we played Diablo 4. I don't
know what that is I don't play video
games sorry but it's a video game so
it's like it's a um
you know pretty intense combat in the
video you're fighting like demons okay
last video game played was Mike Tyson's
punch out there you go that's pretty I
met him recently went on his podcast you
want you want wait it hasn't come out
yet oh it hasn't come yeah okay yeah I
asked um Mike
um his kids are great they came in
they're super smart kids goodness
gracious they ask great questions
um asked Mike what he did with the piece
of evander's ear that that he bit off
did you remember yeah he's like get back
to him here you go sorry about that he
sells Edibles that are in the shape of
ears with a little bite out of it
um yeah that his his life has been
incredible he's um uh and I met yeah he
he his family you get the sense that
they're really a great family they're
really um Mike Tyson that's a heck of a
journey right there of a man yeah my now
friend Tim Armstrong like I said leads
to hearing from ranty he put it best he
said you know that Mike Tyson's life is
you know Shakespearean and you know down
up down up and just that the arcs of his
life are just like sort of an only in
America kind of tale too right so
speaking of Shakespeare I've recently
gotten to know Neri oxman who's this
incredible uh scientist that works at
the intersection of Nature and
engineering and
she uh reminded me of this uh Anna ahmat
of a line This is this great Soviet poet
that I really love from uh over a
century ago that each of Our Lives is a
Shakespearean drama raised to the
Thousand degree so I have to ask why do
you think humans are attracted to
this kind of Shakespearean drama
is there some aspect we've been talking
about the subconscious mind that that
pulls us towards
the drama even though the place of
mental health is peace
yes and yes do you have some of that
draw towards drama
yeah
if you look at the empirical data yes I
mean right if I look at the empirical
data I mean I think about who I chose to
work for as an undergraduate right I was
a you know barely finished high school
finally get to College
barely I think this is really
embarrassing and not something to Aspire
to you know I was
um you know thrown out of the dorms for
fighting
um I barely passed my classes you know
the girlfriend and I split up I mean I
was living in a squad got into a big
fight it was getting in trouble with the
law I eventually got my act together go
back to school start working for
somebody who do I choose to work for a
guy who's an ex-navy guy who smokes
cigarettes in the fume Hood drinks
coffee and we're injecting rats with
MDMA yeah and you know I was drawn to
like the personality his energy but I
also he was a great he was a great
scientist worked out a lot on a thermal
regulation in the brain and
um and more
um you know go to graduate school I'm
working for somebody and
decide that yeah doing working in her
laboratory wasn't quite right for me so
I'm literally sneaking into the
laboratory next door and working for the
woman next door because I like the
relationships that she had to a certain
set of questions and she was a kind of a
quirky person and you know so drawn to
drama but drawn to I like characters I
like people that have texture yeah and
I'm not drawn to Raw ambition I'm
drawing people that seem to have a real
passion for what they do and a
uniqueness to them that I I you know you
can kind of not kind of I'll just say
how it is I can feel their heart for
what they do and I'm I'm drawn to that
like um and that can be good
the same reason I went to work for Ben
Barris as a postdoc it wasn't because he
was the first transgender Man member of
the National Academy of Sciences that
was just a feature of who he was I loved
how he loved glea he would talk about
these cells like they were the most
enchanting things that he'd ever seen in
his life and I was like this is like the
biggest nerd I've ever met and I love
him
I think we're Dr I'm drawn to that
um this is another thing that Conti
makes uh elaborates on quite a bit more
in the series on Mental Health coming
out but there are different drives
within us there's this
there are aggressive drives not always
for fighting but for intense interaction
I mean look at Twitter look at some of
look at people clearly have an
aggressive Drive there's also a pleasure
Drive some people also have a strong
pleasure Drive they want to experience
pleasure through food through sex
through friendship through Adventure you
know but I think the Shakespearean drama
is the drama of the different drives in
different ratios in different people I I
know somebody and she's incredibly kind
has an extremely high pleasure Drive
loves taking great care of herself and
people around her through food and
through Retreats and through all these
things and makes spaces beautiful
everywhere she goes and is gifts these
things that are just so unbelievably
feminine and incredible these gifts to
people and the kind and thoughtful about
what they like and then
um but I would say very little
aggressive Drive
um from my read and then I know other
people who are just have a ton of
aggressive drive and very low pleasure
drive and I think so there's this
alchemy that exists where people have
these things in different ratios and
then you blend in
um you know the differences in the
chromosomes and differences in hormones
and differences in personal history and
what you end up with is a species
that
creates incredible recipes of drama but
also peace also relief from drama
contentment I mean I realize this isn't
the exact topic of the question but
um someone I know
very dearly actually an ex-girlfriend of
mine long-term partner mine
um sent me something recently I think it
hit the nail on the head which is that
ideally
for a man they eventually settle where
they find and feel peace or they feel
peaceful where they can be themselves
and feel peaceful now I'm sure there's a
equivalent or mirror image of that for
women but this particular post that she
sent was about men and I totally agree
and so
um it isn't always that we're seeking
friction but
for periods of our life we see friction
drama Adventure excitement
fights
um you know
and doing hard hard things and then I
think at some point I'm certainly coming
to this point now where it's like yeah
that's all great and checked a lot of
boxes but had a lot of close calls flew
really close to the Sun on a lot of
things with life and limb and and part
and spirit and some of you know people
close to us didn't make it and sometimes
not making it means their the career
they wanted went off a cliff or the the
their health went off a cliff or their
life went off a cliff but I think that
um there's also the Shakespearean drama
of the characters that exit the play and
are living their lives happily in the
backdrop it just doesn't make for as
much entertainment
that's one other thing that's a benefit
you could say is the benefit of getting
older is uh
um finding the Shakespearean drama less
appealing or finding the joy in the
peace yeah definitely I mean I think
that
um I think there's real peace with age I
think the other thing is this notion of
checking boxes is a real thing I for me
anyway I I have a morning meditation
that I do
um well I wake up now I get my sunlight
I hydrate I use the bathroom I do all
the things that I talk about
um I've started to practice a prayer in
the last year which is new ish for me
which is we could talk about in the
morning yeah can you talk about it a
little bit sure yeah and I and then I
have a meditation that I do that
actually is where I think through with
the different roles that I play so I
like I start very basic
um I say okay I'm an animal like we are
we are like biologically animals right
human
you know I'm a man I'm a scientist I'm a
teacher I'm a friend I'm a brother I'm a
son you know I go through this I have
this list and I think about the
different roles that I have and the
roles that I still want in my life going
forward that I haven't yet fulfilled it
just takes me it's sort of an inventory
of where I've been where I'm at and
where I'm going as they say
um and I don't know why I do it but I
started doing it this last year I think
because
um it helps me understand just how many
different uh contexts I have to exist in
and and remind myself that there's still
more that I haven't done that I'm
excited about So within each of those
contexts there's like things that you
want to kind of accomplish to Define
that yeah and I'm ambitious so I think
you know I'm a brother I have an older
sister and I love her tremendously and I
think I want to be the best brother I
can be to her which means maybe a call
maybe just
um you know we do an annual trip
together for our birthdays our birthdays
are close together we always go to New
York for our birthdays if we've gone for
last three four years like really like
reminding myself of that role not
because I'll forget but because I have
all these other roles I'll get pulled
into I say the first one I'm an animal
because I have to remember that I have a
body that needs care
like any of us I need sleep I need food
I need hydration I need that I'm human
that that the brain of a human is is
marvelously complex but also
um marvelously uh self-defeating at
times and so I've been thinking about
these things in the context of the
different roles and the whole thing
takes about four or five minutes and I
just find it brings me a certain amount
of clarity that then allows me to
ratchet into the day the prayer piece um
yeah I think I've been reluctant to talk
about
um until now
um because I don't believe in pushing
religion on people and
um and I think that
um and I'm not
um it's a highly individual thing and I
do believe that one can be an atheist
and still pray
um or agnostic and still pray but uh for
me it really came about through
understanding that there are certain
aspects of myself
that I just couldn't
resolve on my own and no matter how much
therapy no matter how much and I haven't
done a lot of it but no matter how much
plant medicine or other sorts of
medicine or exercise or
um podcasting or science or friendship
or any of that I was just not going to
resolve and so
um I started this because uh someone
close to me
um said a male friend said you know
prayer is powerful
and I said well how and I said I don't
know how but if you if you can get it
can allow you to Get outside yourself
get let you give up control and at the
same time take control I don't even like
saying take control but the whole notion
is that
again forgive me but there's no other
way to say it the whole notion is that
you know like God works through US
whatever God is to you he he him her
whatever the life force nature whatever
it is to you right that it works through
us and so I do a prayer I'll just
describe it where I I ask
um I make an ask to help remove my
defects my Character defects I I pray to
God to help remove my Character defects
so that I can show up
um better in all the roles of my life
and do good work like to which for me is
learning and teaching learning and
teaching and and so you might say well
how is that different than a meditation
well it I'm acknowledging that there is
something that bigger than me bigger
than nature as I understand it that I
cannot understand or control nor do I
want to and I'm just giving over to that
and does that make me less of a
scientist I I sure tell hope not I
certainly know I there's the head of our
neurosciences at Stanford until recently
um I you should talk to him directly
about it Bill Newsom has talked about
his religious life
um for me it's really a way of getting
outside myself and then understanding
how I fit into this bigger picture and
it's and the Character defects part is
real right I'm a human I have defects
like
I got a lot of flaws in me like anybody
but
um and trying to acknowledge them and
asking for help in removing them not
magically but through right action
through my right action
so I do that every morning and um I have
to say that it's helped it's helped a
lot it's helped me be better to myself
be better at other people
um I still make mistakes
um but it's a it's becoming a bigger
bigger part of my life and I never
thought I'd talk like this
um but
I think
it's clear to me that
if we don't
believe in something
again doesn't have to be traditional
standardized religion but if we don't
believe in something bigger than
ourselves we uh at some level will
self-destruct
I really I really think so it's power
and it's powerful in a way that all the
other stuff meditation and all the tools
is is not because it's really operating
at a much deeper and bigger level and um
you know if
yeah I think I think that's all I can
talk about it um mostly because I'm
still working out you know the
scientists in me wants to unders