Kind: captions
Language: en
regardless of whatever was written in
these books that were written thousands
and thousands of years ago the fact of
the matter is no one has a right to go
on slaughtering people removing them
from their homes and then continuing to
live in their homes continuing to drink
coffee on their balconies
um decades and decades later with no
shame with no introspection
with no reflection that's no one has the
right to do that no one has the right to
keep an entire population of people in
arcades
which is what's happening to people in
the West Bank who have no freedom of of
movement which is what's happening
in Gaza which is blockaded
to water air and land and
is deemed uninhabitable by human rights
organizations like the UN no one has a
right to do that
the following is a conversation with
Muhammad alcard a world-renowned
Palestinian poet writer journalist and
an influential voice speaking out and
fighting for the Palestinian cause
he provides a very different perspective
on Israel and Palestine than my previous
two episodes with Benjamin Netanyahu and
Yuval Noah Harari I hope his story and
his words add to your understanding of
this part of the world as it did to mine
I will continue to have difficult
long-form conversations such as these
always with empathy and humility but
with backbone
and please allow me to briefly comment
about criticisms I receive of who I am
as an interviewer and a human being
I am not afraid to travel anywhere or
challenge anyone face to face even if it
puts my life in danger
but I'm also not afraid to be vulnerable
to truly listen to empathize to walk a
mile on the well-worn shoes of those
very different from me
it's this latter task not the formal one
that is truly the most challenging in
conversations and in life
but to me it is the only way
this is the Lex Friedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Muhammad alcard
tell me about Sheikh jarah the
neighborhood in East Jerusalem where you
grew up
in a way a typical neighborhood despite
the despite the Absurd reality the
surrounds it it's a typical neighborhood
in terms of Palestinian neighborhoods is
one that is threatened with
colonialism with settler expansion and
with forced expulsion and it has been
that way since the early 70s my family
like all of the other families
were expelled from their homes in the
nakabe in 1948 and they were forced out
by the hagana and other Zionist parallel
militaries that later formed the Israeli
military
and they were driven to various cities
and
my grandmother moved from City to city
and she ended up in 1956 Silverado has
established as a refugee housing unit
by the United Nations and by the
Jordanian government which has which had
control over that part of Jerusalem at
the at the time
and then people lived there
harmoniously they were all from
different parts of Palestine
and you know they managed to rebuild
their lives after the first explosion
and then in the 70s you had cellular
organizations
um many of whom were registered here in
New York and in the United States
claiming our houses and our lands as
their own by Divine decree and because
obviously because the judges are Israeli
and the Lords were written by Israeli
settlers and the whole Judiciary was
established uh atop the the rebel of our
homes and villages we had no
you know we had no real pull in the
courts the Israeli courts would look at
the Israeli documents which we argue are
falsifies and fabricated
um and they would take them at face
value without authentication and they
refused to look at our documents they
refused to look at the documents from
the Jordanian government the documents
from the U.N the documents from the
ottoman archives so you already have
this kind of asymmetry in the court that
for any person with common sense would
lead you to believe that this is not in
fact a legal battle
um or a real estate dispute as the
Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs
likes to frame it but rather a very very
political battle one that is about
social engineering one is about
demographics one that is about removing
as many Palestinians as possible
from occupied Jerusalem
so we did what all Palestinian families
in Jerusalem do when they're faced with
this kind of threat and we bought time
we we pleaded and pleaded and appealed
the courts and appealed the cases and we
got
over 50 expulsion orders
in 2009
rifle wielding settlers
accompanied by police and Israeli
military came over
and shoved our neighbors outside of
their home around 5 a.m it's like
it was the most
brutal violent thing I'd seen as a child
at the time and I didn't realize that my
turn was coming my turn was next they
threw they threw them out in the middle
of the night with sound bombs and rubber
bullets and they
had to live in tents on the street
for many many months and even lived in
our front yards for a few months and
lived in their cars can you look on that
process 2009 you said 50 expulsion
orders what uh what was happening
between the 70s and 2009 there had been
many dozens of expulsions orders against
us and against many other families in
the in the neighborhood 28 other family
20 28 families in total actually
um and in 2008 2009 the first wave of
explosions finally happened it actually
began with uh
on camera recorded we're not related but
we live on the same street in the same
neighborhood she was thrown out of her
home her husband an elderly man also
named was pronounced dead on the spot he
had a stroke and died he they the
Israeli soldiers pulled him out of his
home while he was um urinating and threw
him under the streets and he died a few
months later the Ravi and the hanoon
families which are you know kind of not
a clan but you know in Palestine you
have sometimes a building that contains
multiple brothers and their wives
um each have little apartments
about 35 people were thrown out in the
middle of the street right across from
us
and then by the end of 2009 I had come
home from school to find all of my
furniture scattered across the length of
the street and I saw the settlers many
of whom had American accents
living in our house
and their justification for this the
reasoning for this is you know Divine
decree this is this is what God wants
this is the promised land this is so and
so as if God is some kind of real estate
agent
um
so they took over half of our home and
we continue to be in courts for the
following decade this was I was still a
child and I had broken English and I was
talking to all of these diplomats and
all these journalists
who would you know subjugate me
um to their subject me to their you know
racism and biases and and so on and so
forth and he had to prove my Humanity
time and time again and I had to you
know do all of this all with broken
English
um and we were lucky even if we got a if
we got a quote in the in the article
written about us by the times or so on
and so forth
move forward to 2020 I was in New York
City studying a master's degree getting
a master's degree and
my father calls me
and he tells me you know we haven't yet
another expulsion order and we decided
to launch a campaign
it was quite ambitious at the time
but the whole objective of the campaign
was to demystify what is happening right
because it's reported on in the news
it's reported on
around the world as this real estate
dispute as these evictions which was not
really what's happening evictions do not
entail
a foreign army in an occupied territory
forcibly removing you out of your home
uh so I came home from New York and we
launched a campaign which turned into a
global success and I believe it was a
global success because finally the the
images on the screen matched the
rhetoric that was being said it wasn't
so confusing or complicated anymore
all of this asymmetry was pronounced and
articulated in a way that any of you or
be it in Alabama be in New York be it in
Egypt was able to understand the
asymmetry of the digi of the judicial
system and you know the agenda of
colonialism that was taking place here
and due to immense International and
diplomatic processor
um from all over the world even the
United States
the Israeli Supreme Court was forced to
cancel all of the eviction orders
until further notice this I consider was
a small victory because obviously we are
still at risk of losing our homes once
they decide to do the land registry
which we can get into a little bit later
if you'd like
um
but nonetheless it was something that we
haven't seen
before and the fact
that the Supreme Court canceled all of
these dozens and dozens of past eviction
orders it's set a precedent and it also
proved that this was a political battle
not a legal one so let's just add a
little more detail to the people who are
not familiar with the story with the
region
with the evictions with the courts so
first of all shakes your eyes in East
Jerusalem maybe you can say what is
Jerusalem where is it located
what are we talking about in terms of
regionally and second what kind of
people that live there so if you could
talk about the Palestinian people
and
um we should also make clear that these
evictions is literally people living in
homes and their homes are taken away
from them
I suppose technically it's legal
uh evictions but you're saying that
there's a asymmetry of power in the
courts where the legal is uh not so much
legal but is politically and maybe even
religiously based
yeah I mean the biggest the most
important context here is that
oftentimes Americans think that Israel
and Palestine are some kind of two
neighbor two neighboring countries
um
that live next to each other and they
are at War but the fact of the matter is
Palestinian cities exist
all over the country and it's just one
country it's just one infrastructure and
Israel is literally on top of Palestine
it was established on top of our
Villages
um in the late 40s uh now according to
international law the eastern part of
Jerusalem is under occupation so Israeli
presence
ends with Dixon
over the area is completely illegitimate
they say the evictions are legal because
the settlers
write their laws so obviously they're
going to allow settlements to expand but
according to international law according
to even U.S policy
um
Israel occupies the eastern part of
Jerusalem it's jurisdiction there is
illegitimate we shouldn't even be going
to their courts in the first place but
we have no other option
um we're talking we're talking about how
we're talking about Jerusalem we're
talking about generations and
generations and generations of people
who have lived there
for the longest time who now even though
you know for example me I don't have a
citizenship I'm a resident a mere
resident I have a blue ID card even
though my grandmother and my grandfather
were born in Jerusalem their
grandparents were born in Jerusalem
um
even though we've lived there for
Generations but Palestinians in
Jerusalem we are not Citizens We're just
mere residents same thing with residents
of the occupied Syrian Golan they are
not citizens they are just residents in
their own hometowns this is an important
uh piece but all of this gets convoluted
and Lost in Translation and I think
I I would argue it's a lot more it's
a lot of the time it's dubious it's it's
malicious the fact that these little
pieces of context that frame the entire
story get lost
you know I'll talk to you about
something else
um just 10 minutes 10 minutes across
from my neighborhood there's another
another neighborhood called silhouette
and the people in Silvan are also
threatened with expulsion but not
through evictions but through home
demolitions and if you look at American
state American Media or Israeli State
media you would read the headlines you
know Palestinians living in homes built
illegally are gonna face you know their
homes as they're going to be torn apart
what these headlines don't tell you and
even sometimes most of the time the
substance doesn't tell you that
Palestinians seldom ever get
building permit applications
um in fact recently a spokesperson for
the Israeli military confirmed that was
95 of building permits applications
submitted by Palestinians and is
Jerusalem and the West Bank are rejected
by the Israeli authorities and to make
this even more absurd the guy
the councilman who is responsible
um for rejecting and accepting building
permit applications his name is Jonathan
Youssef and he's a he's a an activist in
the settler movements and he's a
Jerusalem council member
and he last week following the expulsion
of uh
a sublaban family in the old city of
Jerusalem he posted to his official
Facebook his Facebook account naked by
now
um demanding a second promising another
nakaba he has done so on many occasions
he has chanted with a megaphone just a
few months ago walking down the street
in my neighborhood chanting we want Nick
by now this is a man who has vandalized
their murals who has screamed
islamophobic slurs this is literally a
man in the government making these
decisions right uh and this is similar
to you know masafriotto in the South
Hebron Hills for those who don't know
it's uh it's it's a place in the
occupied West Bank where Bedouin and
cave dweller Palestinians have lived for
Generations they have cultivated the
land
um and recently they were expelled from
their homes over a thousand people were
expelled from their remote small
villages again if you're reading
American Media they would say it would
say Palestinians living in firing zones
were removed because they're living in a
military zone what these media reports
will not tell you that in the 80s the
Israeli government
purposefully classified many lands in
the occupied West Bank
as firing zones as off limit military
zones for the sole purpose of expelling
the residents and this is not some kind
of conspiracy theory this is
Declassified information that was
released from the Israeli State archive
that was later reported on by her audits
also these reports will not tell you
that the judge
who rules on whether these people
continue to live under homes or not is
himself a settler in the West Bank I'm
not even talking about
you know I'll lose the definition of a
settler but according to international
law this is a settler living illegally
in an illegal settlement in the occupied
West Bank this is the Judiciary
um that we deal with which is hilarious
considering how it's being reported on
um in American Media recently as some
kind of Beacon of progress and democracy
that the new government is trying to
undermine so there's no representation
in the courts for the Palestinian people
I mean we have lawyers but no there is
no there's no in fact there is for
Palestinians with Israeli citizenships
for example there's over 60 laws that
specifically and explicitly
discriminates against them
so again it's technically legal the
evictions and the demolitions yeah so
was Jim Crow was legal also you know
when something is legal it can also
still be
wrong absolutely history has shown us
time and time again
um that legality does not necessarily
mean morality and the law you know is uh
the law is a bloodbath in many ways
um it has been used
and abused to facilitate the most
horrendous atrocities in in the case of
the Palestinians the law has served to
facilitate and bureaucratize our ethnic
cleansing
do you think there's people
judges and just people in power in the
Judiciary that have hate for the
Palestinian people
I mean I'm not really the the easy
simplistic answer is yes but I don't
really care about the contents of their
hearts what I care about the policy they
enact right the laws they write and
enact are hateful demolishing a person's
home
um so you can have somebody from Long
Island New York
who is fleeing you know fraud charges
this is the case in my house live in in
their in their you know front yard
that's hateful so I don't need you know
confirmation this is something we see a
lot actually you know
um Palestinians and people who are
pro-palestine and just people who want
to make a difference in how this cause
is represented
we often Run for the first
um
opportunity to cite an Israeli being
hateful you know the recent the last uh
Israeli Prime Minister said that he has
killed many Arabs and that he has no
qualms with it
um Netanyahu has said a slew of racist
hateful things
um josinski the pioneer of Zionism herzl
one of the pioneers of Zionism all have
said horrible hateful
things we also like cannot wait to you
know
cite uh a confession from a former
Israeli soldier who is guilty
Consciousness is keeping them you know
up at night and we use all of these you
know
confessions or slip UPS as evidence to
prove that this is a racist country that
is an acting race racist acts but we
don't need this because the material
proof is on the ground you see it in the
policies that are enacted you see it
um
in how the country how this regime has
behaved for the past 75 years I don't
need you know
confessions from the likes of Netanyahu
to understand that his heart is full of
hate
so if you could return to 1948 and
describe something that you've mentioned
the nakba which means catastrophe in
Arabic
what was this event what was this
displacement and dispossession of
Palestinians in 1948
well you know like May 15 1948
um
is commemorated every year as you know
the anniversary of the knuckleberry but
I would even argue and I think this is
like an
a very popular
idea is that the network did not begin
or end in 1948 the 48 was rather you
know a crystallization
of the Zionist Enterprise in Palestine
um and what what happened was that
many zionists
paramilitaries that again today merged
and made the Israeli Army which calls
itself the Israeli Defense Forces even
though they're literally always
aggressor
um
committed atrocities and massacres and
you know they
destroyed over 500 Villages they killed
over 15 000 people they forced
a very large portion a majority of the
Palestinian population
uh to flee their homes and this was you
know
the near total Destruction of
Palestinian society that continues on to
this day we refer to it as the ongoing
nakba and you see it in in you see it in
silangi state and Hebron and all of
these people losing their homes and
in many cases time and time again you
know I grew up and my grandmother told
me the stories about the nakabe she told
me stories about her neighbors who
were
running away in a panic and they had
mistaken a pillow for their offspring
and they just took it with them and they
realized later that they forgot their
child and they came back for many many
people who were separated from their my
grandmother herself she lost her husband
for a few months for nine months he was
imprisoned by the Israelis
um
you know she told me all of these
stories and she wasn't just reminiscing
about them she was
you know
letting me know that this is still
happening and then and I didn't need to
grow up that old to see it happening in
my own front yard to see that expulsion
happened in the same fashion she's she's
talked about it but
you know now they have replaced their
artillery with the Judiciary
they have replaced you know the the the
slashing of the pregnant women's bellies
in the Daria scene Massacre with with
laws that say you know you're not you're
not legally allowed to be here we're
going to kick you out of your home and
it's happening and it has happened in in
broad daylight
um one piece of context for The Listener
who doesn't who is not familiar with the
knuckleberry
is developer declaration
which was a promise quote unquote
promise made by the British
to the Zionist movement in 1917
committing to The Establishment I'm
quoting I think word for word committing
to the establishment of a Jewish state
in Palestine
um as if Palestine was you know the
British to give away
um
and there was this whole movement that
called for colonization of Palestine and
there were different there were
different schools of thought in Zionism
you know people like zanguo said that
this was a country without a people
um and Palestinians who have existed
there who have cultivated the lands who
have you know
had diverse cultural and religious and
political uh practices they were
completely erased and other people like
zobozinski
um
were a lot more explicit and a lot more
honest and said that we need to fight
the Palestinians because they love their
land much like the red Indians love
their lands and he had a paper called
The Iron Wall colonization of Palestine
must go forward
um
and all of these all of these schools of
thoughts were then shopping around for
you know Imperial support
for their cause
they tried they tried to get support
from the Ottoman Empire they tried to
get support from Germany and this is in
the 1800s and then they got support from
the United Kingdom a great book to
recommend is the 100 year the Hundred
Years War on Palestine
um that's the you know traces the
Zionist movement oftentimes in
designists own words
um and so today what we're seeing is a
continuation and you know people like
zabotinski who are like profoundly and
explicitly racist who have called for
genocide who have uh called the
Palestinians barbaric who have
said and done
racist things you know Japanese also was
like the founder of the ergon one of the
other militias that later merged to
become the I the Israeli Army uh which
was responsible for that area scene
Massacre which was responsible for the
bombing of the King David Hotel
um this is a person who's still
celebrated in Israeli Society there are
still streets named after him and
Netanyahu just two weeks ago if I'm not
mistaken honored him in a public
celebration
um so this is Zionism it's not even
through my own
words what he said to people
that describe Israel as having a
historical right to the land
so if you stretch out across decades but
across centuries into the past
this kind of thing is a red herring um
it's a destruction because you don't
think of any state
as having rights but there is this
exceptionalism to the Israeli regime
where it is it has a right to defend
itself and it has a right to the land
and it has a right to shoot 14 year old
boys because
it thought they had a knife in their
pockets
you know a lot of the time people cite
the Torah on site religious books and
you know sometimes zionists will even
say like read the Quran and blah blah
blah you know regardless of whatever was
written in these books that were written
thousands and thousands of years ago the
fact of the matter is no one has a right
to go on slaughtering people removing
them from their homes and then
continuing to live in their homes
continuing to drink coffee on their
balconies
um decades and decades later with no
shame with no introspection
with no reflection that's no one has the
right to do that no one has the right to
keep an entire population of people in a
cage
which is what's happening to people in
the West Bank who have no freedom of of
movement which is what's happening
in Gaza which is blockaded
to water air and land and
is deemed uninhabitable by human rights
organizations like the UN no one has a
right to do that
do you have Hate in Your Heart for
Israel why does that matter
as one human being to another you're
describing quite brilliantly that the
contents
of people's hearts don't matter as much
as the policies and the context of the
courts and the laws and what actually is
going on on the streets in terms of
actions but
this is also a human story
yeah and
uh
I feel like
at the core
of the situation here is
um
hate
is or maybe inability for some group of
humans to see the humanity in another
group of humans and so it's important
here to talk about the contents of
Hearts if we were to think about the
long-term future of this yeah I mean I
would be concerned actually if I didn't
feel some kind of way in my heart I
would be concerned for my own dignity
because the people who Revolt the people
who are angry the people who refuse to
live under occupation know that they
deserve better
people start revolutions not because
some kind of cultural phenomenon not
because of some kind of Desire but
because they cannot breathe because they
cannot
they cannot breathe they cannot live
they are living under excruciating
circumstances
you know Palestinians you know I don't
know I don't know how many Palestinians
have interacted with but we are some of
the most wonderful people I mean not all
of us I think some of us are you know
insufferable but most of us
you know
most of us you know we're very
hospitable
um
we're very hospitable even like in the
early early correspondence between the
mayor of Jerusalem and herzl who wrote
the Jewish State you know the generosity
through which uh the Palestinian mayor
was talking to herzl who was plotting to
take over his land
is impressive and at the same time you
know heart-wrenching um
but I I personally
think there is
there's a lot of dignity
um in negating your oppressor and I
think it would be ridiculous today today
if we like look back at junko for
example and we asked the person who's
lived under under Jim Crow
um if they have hate in their heart for
Jim Crow as if that's not the absolutely
logical and natural sentiment to feel in
rivka you wrote my father told me anger
is a luxury we cannot afford be composed
calm still laugh when they ask you smile
when they talk answer them educate them
so let me Linger on this is their anger
in there in your heart and does it Cloud
your judgment
does it Cloud management
I don't think so I think with I think
our campaign to defend our homes was
particularly successful because
it was honest to what was happening on
the ground because it refused to follow
the strategy that we have used in our
advocacy before
where we shrink ourselves and we turn
the other tree can we try to convince
American lawmakers and American
diplomats and journalists of our
Humanity
um because we wait for the approval you
know I was 14 years old when I first
flew to Congress to speak to Congress
people
and to speak to other European
Parliament and I at the time I thought
wow I must be such a brilliant
14 year old
um for them to have me here and you know
looking back I didn't know what I was
talking about I had
horrendously broken English
um and he didn't have any any talking
points and he came to realize that the
reason why we send our kids with their
power points to the hill
is because of the racism and the hatred
that lingers inside the hearts of
American politicians who refused to sit
on the table
um with Palestinian adults as equals
um and so we resort to sending our kids
who will not threaten
um and who will not you know trigger the
biases they have against Muslims and
Arab people which Palestinians even
though we're not all Muslim are
racialized as Muslim
um
and this is why we emphasize uh the
deaths of women and children as though
the deaths of our men does not counter
does not matter all of these things I
think the new generation of Palestinians
is rebelling against
um I think words like you know I think
it's loaded it's loaded language uh
anger and angry and hate and so on and
so forth because it Miss
mischaracterizes people and it kind of
delegitimizes them a little bit
um you know I think the real the real
anger is the bulldozer
um bulldozing through my house I think
the real anger is the 18 year old
soldier who refuses to see me as a human
being and strip searches me every chance
they get that's where the real anger
lies
um
and I'm quite honestly proud of
you know our unabashedness
um
and a refusal to like bow our heads or
bury our heads in the sand
I think that's the only way forward
so I anger whatever it is is a
fuel for Action absolutely and it has
been throughout throughout history
it has been
how much of this tension is religious
in the Practical aspects of the courts
and the the evictions and the
demolitions
and you mentioned something Divine
decree
how much underneath it do you feel
the division over religious texts and
religious beliefs
you know it's convenient to Market
what's happening in Palestine as a
religious conflict because it allows
um
The Listener the luxury of believing
that this is an ancient complicated
thing that stretches thousands and
thousands of years ago but the fact of
the matter is
the people who invented Zionism who
pioneered the Zionist movement who
called for immigration
and settling into Palestine a lot of
them were atheists a lot of them
were not religious at all
um
and the leaders of the Israeli state
today a lot of them are atheists
and a lot of them are secular and so on
and so forth it's easy to it's easy to
say that this is
you know about Muslims and and Jews
fighting over the land and so on and so
forth but it's not it's about the land
itself and it's about
people being forced out of their homes
Benjamin Netanyahu said anti-zionism is
anti-Semitism of course he said that
do you disagree absolutely I disagree
what's the gap between
um anti-zionism and anti-Semitism those
who are against the policies of
uh Israel versus those who are against
the Jewish people
like what's the well the first like 20
minutes and then I couldn't do it
anymore you know but I watched and then
what was interesting about Netanyahu is
that he said you know being
anti-zionist is like saying I'm okay
with the Jews I just don't believe the
Jews have a right to form their own
State that's like
saying I'm okay with Americans I'm just
not okay with Americans having their own
State and there's so much wrong with
that statement in the sense that
Jewish people are a religious group in
Americans and America being an American
as a nationality that consists of
A diversity
um
of religions and
and so on and so forth first of all on
the second the second thing that's wrong
with that statement is the whole idea
that states somehow have a right to
exist or or whatever it's it's such a
destruction you have you have people
getting shot in the street you have like
millions and millions of people besides
do you have people losing their homes
you have people who are held in Israeli
prisons without trial
um or charts indefinitely but the
conversations that are being held in the
head on the hill the conversations that
are being held on CNN
or does Israel has a right to exist or
like why would you negate Israel's
having a right to exist that's one now
of course I'm sorry and I just I just
find it's it's ridiculous again like
that uh opposing a secular political
movement that was explicitly colonialist
expansionist exclusive and racist
through the words of its own authors is
somehow and also again opposing such a
political movement that is
quite young and quite recent is somehow
equivalent equivalent to opposing uh a
religion that is thousands and thousands
of years old but it is convenient
again for Israeli politicians
to frame us who oppose Zionism
a form of racism and bigotry as
anti-semites but I can guarantee you
Benjamin Netanyahu has no problem with
anti-Semitism this is the same man who
has no problem getting on stage and
shaking hands with Pastor John Hagee
doing uh web webinars with Pastor John
Hagee for those who don't know Pastor
John Hagee is the founder of Christians
United for Israel who has said on
multiple occasions that Hitler was a
hunter who was sent to hunt the Jews who
said on multiple occasions that Jewish
people are gonna perish in hell you can
all of this is like verifiable by Google
and this is one of the Israeli regime's
closest allies right
um
so the Israeli regime does not have a
problem with anti-semites when it serves
its interests it has a problem
I mean like if you look at Evangelical
Evangelical evangelicals or like
Christian Zionism at Lords
semitism lies at the heart
of Christian Zionism it's the idea that
we want to derive all of the Jews
outside of the United States so that
Armageddon could happen or whatever the
fuck this accusation has been a muzzle
it has been used as a muzzle to silence
political opposition
um and this stifle political advocacy
for the liberation of Palestine and a
lot of the time people get caught up in
denouncing it and in
justifying themselves and disclaimers
and so on and so forth that you lose the
point that you're distracted from the
focal point that is there is an ongoing
colonialism happening where people every
single day are killed I cannot keep
count this morning
a kid was shot
in Palestine
we cannot it's embarrassing even for me
that I don't even know the numbers here
but this muzzle has been effective and I
think the only
righteous uh
option itself is to oppose
um these labels these smear campaigns
that Target us
um I myself have been labeled an
anti-semite
by the ADL and I mean like if you want
to talk about
the surface level people people say like
wow the ADL Anti-Defamation League you
know uh condemned you but people do not
look at the history of the
Anti-Defamation League do not look at
the present of the Anti-Defamation
League the fact that they are
um
the largest non-governmental police
training uh Department in the country
where they train police and
uh racial profiling and militarism the
fact that they have historically and
continued to have engaged in
surveillance on
on Black
Liberation movements on anti-apartheid
South African activists most recently in
Charlottesville when white supremacists
were marching
um and chanting anti-semitic shit the
ADL advised local police departments to
spy on the black organizers opposing
the white supremacists this is again all
verifiable on the internet go to
droptheadl.org so if the ADL does not
uh alleviate the uh the hate in the
world
as it probably is designed to do no it's
it's the guys I don't think the
apartheid Defense League is really our
most Progressive but that's what it
stands for yeah okay season no now you
know
uh
if we can just Linger on this idea of
anti-semitism
there's quite a bit of anti-muslim
sentiment in the United States
especially after 9 11. I've spoken to
people about that
there's also
uh anti-jewish anti-Semitism sentiment
in the United States but also throughout
human history
what do you make about
this kind of
um fact of human nature that people seem
to hate Jews throughout history
especially in the 20th century
especially with Nazi Germany
what are your in general thoughts about
the hatred of the Jewish people I mean I
think it's obviously wrong I don't know
it's it's this it's this idea that I
even have to clarify what I think about
anti-Semitism that doesn't say right
well with me I think it's completely
unfortunate and wrong that
um Jewish people have been prosecuted
across history so one of the criticisms
I think I've read the ADL making this
criticism of you is uh maybe you've
tweeted a comparison between uh Israel
and Hitler
and thereby diminishing the evil that is
Hitler
uh what would you say to that Mr Sarah
talks about this a lot
um the exceptionalization of Hitler
um Hitler is a deplorable
I don't know condemnable you know rotten
racist horrible human being that belongs
in the depths of Hell obviously that's
that goes without without saying but
I am allowed
um analogy
and I'm allowed
to say whatever I want
now I don't necessarily think that that
such an analogy is a good strategy to
have
but at the time the context came in
um
2021 when
Israeli soldiers and policemen and
settlers were literally burning down our
neighborhood Again verifiable by Google
um
and I tweeted it and I also I remember I
tweeted something I hope every single
one of them dies and to this day like
this is some kind of uh you know gotcha
for me as if I should have tweeted like
oh here's the apple pie for every single
soldier that's throwing tear gas in my
house
you know there is
there is
such an exceptionalism when it comes to
Palestinians we're not allowed analogy
we're not allowed expression we're not
allowed armed resistance we're not
allowed peaceful resistance we're not
allowed to boycott because that's
anti-semitic we're not allowed to do
anything
so what are we allowed if I if I can't
boycott and that's against American law
and auto boycott and if I can't pick up
a rifle because that's against the law
and if I can't even tweet
my frustration out what am I allowed to
do
you know maybe Netanyahu can send me a
manual he's happy with you know
so you've spoken about the taking of
homes
the IDF uh killing civilians killing
children
uh what about the violence going the
other direction Israelis being killed
um in part by terrorist action
well it depends on depends on how you
Define terrorism right across history
one man's Freedom Fighter is another
man's terrorist
uh
I don't necessarily subscribe to the
definition of terrorism if uh if a
foreign army is in my neighborhood which
it's not supposed to be and and they're
shooting life ammunition at my house
I'm allowed to do what I'm allowed to do
and again this is another yet another
case of Palestinian exceptionalism
because when it comes to Ukraine
people have no problem
seeing ukrainians defending their homes
seeing ukrainians uh dying further man
seeing ukrainians making makeshift
molotovs on Sky News you know Sky News
was running most of making cocktails the
New York Times read an article
interviewing a Ukrainian psychologist
who said that hatred I'm paraphrasing
but he said hatred for all
um
Russians is actually a healthy Outlet
the New York Post ran a headline
um Champion championing uh quote unquote
heroic Ukrainian suicide bomber
these things we would not even dream of
uh
as as Palestinians
we are we are told to turn the other
cheek time and time again we're told
that we we should continue living these
in inside these enclaves
um without access to clean water without
access to to the right to movement
without access to building permits
without our natural right to expansion
without you know without a guarantee
that if we leave our house we're not
going to be sought and we're supposed to
not do anything about it that is absurd
any any person watching this understands
this completely people understand you
know people understand that if somebody
is attacking your home you'll fight back
if somebody is attacking your family you
fight back that is that is not but again
who gets to call who a terrorist who
gets to Define terrorism this is all
about who has power
who gets to write these laws who gets to
write these definitions
you know why is it um
why is it that American accents and Iraq
is not called terrorism by American
politicians wise you know violence is
like this
mutating mutating Concepts you know and
it takes on many shapes and forms and if
it's in in a uniform
it's if it speaks in English if it has
blonde hair it's somehow acceptable it's
okay we make
movies about it
you know we sell out
tickets
about it we make games about it but if
it's without a uniform it's if it has a
thick accent if it has a beard you know
that's that's condemnable that's wrong
that's terrorism you know do you think
violence is an effective method of
protest and resistance in general in
general I think it has been but I think
you know I believe in fighting on all
fronts I don't think violence alone is
gonna bring about change
I think uh
there's so much to do uh in culture and
shifting public opinion there's so much
to do in media and fighting back against
media eraser and census and censorship
there's so much to do diplomatically and
politically
um
um and I I think I would be naive if
I don't take the power imbalance into
consideration
um one side has makeshift weapons and
the other side is one of the most
sophisticated armies in the world
so I don't know I don't know how
effective violence could be in this case
but if you look at the flip side do you
see the power of non-violent resistance
so Martin Luther King Gandhi the power
of attorney the other cheek he spoke
negatively about turning the other cheek
so I sense that uh doing so has not been
effective for the Palestinian people
we've turned the other cheek uh
generation after generation there is
this Zionist Trope that that is used
against us they say Palestinian
rejectionism they say that we reject
everything but if you look at the
history like our leadership the
Palestinian Authority has given up ins
after ends has compromised on acre after
acre has signed deal after deal after
deal after deal and still there is no
peace
so turning the other cheek is not you
know the most effective method in my
book what are the top obstacles to
Peaceful coexistence of Israelis and
Palestinians
the the occupation comes to mind the
strictical policies come to mind
the seeds comes to mind the asymmetry of
the Judiciary comes to mind
the whole the whole system needs to be
dismantled I will quote my dear friend
who's uh who's a lawyer who says you
know the solution Justice comes about
through
recognition return
and redistribution
there are millions of Palestinian
refugees who are living in excruciating
circumstances and refugee camps around
the world there are thousands of
Palestinian prisoners
um
who are held in prisons for defending
their homes hundreds of which are held
without charge or trial by the way there
are many Palestinians who get killed in
broad daylight with no recourse
journalists and Medics and everyday
people not just the fire the Freedom
Fighters
um we need again recognition return and
redistribution and peace comes about
when when
when they stop killing us when they stop
keeping us in a cage I mean that's
that's quite simple can you describe
recognition redistribution return and
redistribution return return right of
return right the right of return to all
of the Palestinian refugees to their
homes you know when I'm driving around
haifan I see my grandmother is uh home
that's now turned into a restaurant you
know I could have you know I I made a
joke in one of my essays recently that
had I had that I could have had it all
you know beats front views
her smug attitude you know she grew up
by the she grew up by the Sea after she
relocated the High phones after you know
Jerusalem
um we want that we want that and um you
know they're lucky I don't want
netanyahu's home but I just want my home
I just want my home we want to return I
also wouldn't there needs you know and
like
I believe in the 1960s the Israeli
government classified 90 of all of
historic Palestine as state-owned land
this is
all land that was owned by Palestinian
farmers who have cultivated their lands
for decades you know since the
establishment of the Israeli State there
has been
uh Jewish only towns popping up every
few years and not one town not one
Palestinian town has emerged we are even
those of us who have Israeli Israeli
citizenship who live outside of the wall
are encircled and cannot have their
natural Community growth in their towns
that needs to change that needs to
change you mentioned the wall can you
describe the wall the wall is a nine
meter high cement wall
uh that was finished in 2003 and if
you're American you've probably heard
the whitewash sanitized version of the
name which is the security wall but it's
uh it's the wall that literally has
stolen
thousands of Dunhams of land and has
ripped apart Families my mother is a
poet or was a poet at some point and she
had this poems she she published in the
paper
Called Love behind the wall and it
describes you know it's it's a poem but
it describes a real life situation
of uh two families that who lived right
across the street from each other but
were then separated by the wall and they
would fly balloons
um you know to see each other from each
side of the wall or something like that
this
although it sounds absurd but it's the
reality for many Palestinian families
whose lives were torn apart to his
livelihoods also were torn apart uh by
the wall maybe this is a good
opportunity to talk about the the legal
classifications for Palestinians
you know um Israel much like any other
Colonial entity was has Divine has
divided
and fragmented the Palestinian people
um as I said earlier I have a blue ID
which means I'm a resident a friend of
mine who lives in heifa for example two
hours away from me 150 kilometers not
nothing too bad in this country
has and Israeli citizenship he can you
know travel he can enter the West Bank
he can
um
do a lot more he's a citizen he can vote
if he wants to not that we want to
um you know I always tease my friends or
you can go to Italy without without a
Visa because you have an Israeli
citizenship but you know they battle
National and race or they battle
um crime in their own communities
because of police negligence they they
battle land conference land confiscation
and have battled confiscations in the
50s whereas somebody with a green ID
somebody from the West Bank
cannot leave the West Bank
cannot go anywhere without a special
permit and lives Behind These Walls and
even within the West Bank
the West Bank I think hilariously George
Bush described it as Swiss cheese
because
of the holes every every few every 100
meters there's a new settlement or
there's a new military checkpoint so
even if you live behind the wall in the
West Bank with your green ID even though
you're raw you're robbed of your right
to movement you still even can't move
from town to town within the West Bank
without encountering subtler violence or
military violence while you're crossing
the checkpoints and so on and so forth
and then the last category we have is
people who live in Russia we were
talking about over 2 million people who
live in an open air prison
um
who have no right to movement but also
have no access to clean water water and
no access to
supplies no access to good food no
access to Good Health Care and so on and
so forth who routinely get bombarded
every few years
um
is like two hours away from my house it
feels like an absolute far away planet
because it's so isolated from the rest
of the country so imagine all of these
different legal statuses fragmenting
um your everyday identity and creating
different challenges and obstacles for
you to deal with for each group to deal
with
you know it's amazing and impressive
that despite these Colonial barriers the
the real cement ones
and the you know the barriers in the
mind despite all of these barriers the
Palestinian people have made have
maintained their national identity for
70 years that is incredibly impressive
and it also sends a message that as long
as we have a boot on our neck we are
going to continue fighting you know
violence cracking down on refugee camps
bombarding refugee camps is only going
to bring about more violence so West
Bank is a large region where a lot of
Palestinian people live and then there
are settlements sprinkled throughout and
those settlements have walls around them
for security cameras and security guards
security guards almost a million sellers
in the West Bank and so what are the
different cities here if you can mention
so the West Bank in the West Bank or
mileage and in Bethlehem Hebron Jericho
Annapolis
they have their own stories they have
their own histories yeah and it's
fascinating also how interconnected they
are you know like a friend of mine Mona
Omari recently did a a documentary
report on the day that Haifa fell during
the Zionist Invasion the hagana
um
led the Palestinian residents of Haifa
down to the city center
and as absurd as it sounds
those of them who stood on the right
side of the street were forced into cars
that took them to multiple stops that
would later become multiple refugee
camps the last of which was Janine
refugee camp and
um those who stood on the left side of
the street were forced to board uh boats
that took them to Lebanon to become
refugee camps refugees there
last month we saw the Israeli Army
invade Janine in maybe the largest
military invasion of Janine since 2002
um
and they killed many people they
attacked Medics and journalists in broad
daylight on camera they have
destroyed infrastructure and it was all
very painful but I think the most
compelling aspect
of the real on Janine was what followed
Israeli soldiers at night held their
megaphones and uh
instructed hundreds of Palestinians to
flee their homes and they told them if
you don't leave if you don't have your
hand up in the air you will get shot and
they were forced to leave their homes in
the camp and walk so God knows where
I can guarantee you because the nakaba
is not that old I can guarantee you that
some people who were marching
away from their camps were chased away
from their homes in the camp engineering
were some of the same people who were
chased away from the homes in Haifa in
the first place this Perpetual exile
that Palestinian people
continue to live is is unbearable I mean
in my case my grandmother was removed
from her home in Haifa in 48 and then
she moved from Sydney City and then in
2009 she saw half of her home taken over
by Israeli soldiers my grandmother died
in 2020 and two months later we got the
next
expulsion order from the Israeli Court
I'm quite ashamed to admit that I was
relieved my grandmother had died because
I did not want her 102 years old at the
time to go through yet another nakabe
and this is the fact for so many
Palestinians regardless of where they
are on the map
if I may read the description of the
situation in Janine and maybe you can
comment so this is on July 3rd 4th and
5th just reading Washington Post
description so this was an Israeli
military incursion to Janine The Raid
included more than 1 000 soldiers backed
by drone strikes making it Israel's
largest such operation in the West Bank
since the end of the second Palestinian
Uprising in 2005
the Israeli military said it dismantled
hundreds of explosive cleared hundreds
of weapons destroyed underground
hideouts and confiscated hundreds of
thousands of dollars in quote Terror
funds many of the 50 Palestinians who
have attacked Israelis since the start
of the year have come from Janine camp
and the surrounding area Palestinian
attacks inside Israel have killed 24
people this year U.N experts describe
the genie in operation as collective
punishment in quotes
for the Palestinian people amounting to
egregious violations of international
law many
of the more than 150 Palestinians killed
by Israelis this year have also come
from these communities Palestinian
Fighters say they need arms to defend
themselves against the Israeli
occupation and Military incursions into
the camp during which Palestinian
civilians including children have been
killed so those are the
I would say different perspectives
on the many people on both sides who
have been killed many more Palestinians
can you comment more about the situation
I mean I think the The Washington Post
article is a little bit more uh
you know careful than other than other
media
that came out recently about Janine I
think you know I was listening to our
Reuters radio show and they failed to
ever mention the occupation I don't I
don't even think this paragraph
mentioned that Janine is under
occupation by the by the Israeli forces
by the Israeli regime I think this is
the most important piece of context that
gets
um obscured in our media reporting is
these cities these refugee camps are
under illegal occupation the Israeli
Army has no business being there in the
first place
um that is the most that is the
departure point that is the most
important piece of context that will
answer to you why these people
um are arming themselves many of which
by the way lived through the 2002
Massacre
um and bombardment of Janine and grew up
in the
um violence
um
the the context that Palestine is under
occupation that these Palestinian cities
are under occupation that they have to
deal with land seizures at all times
that they cannot leave their towns
um without a special permit all of this
will give context to the violence and
you know
the thousands of Israeli soldiers that
raided the camp that day
that traumatized an entire generation
they think they will quell that
generation they think that with such
Bloodshed and such barbaric violence
destroying infrastructure attacking
Medics killing people left and right
they think
with this kind of Terror that they can
you know quell people tell people that
you know they can guarantee that these
kids are not going to grow up and resist
but that's the opposite of what happens
one thing about Palestinian people
they will not compromise their dignity
you know these people live in
any live in dire excruciating
circumstances
and it is so courageous in my opinion
that they even think
um to defend themselves against one of
the most lethal one of the most
sophisticated armies in the world
against the nuclear state that can wipe
them out in the matter of seconds but
it's not at the end of the day it's not
even about courage it's about survival
they don't do this because you know of
machismo or because of uh heroic
Tendencies it's because this is about
survival
so the degree there's violence it's
about survival absolutely absolutely I
think if there is no if there was no
occupation there would be no violence
it's it's quite obvious and again people
understand this I mean like we saw on
Twitter in in the recent month uh all of
these Israeli uh propagandists who had
tweeted pictures of like little girls
with guns in Ukraine and like women
making bombs in Ukraine and and young
men carrying their rifles in Ukraine and
praising them as Heroes post very
similar pictures of Palestinians
um and calling them terrorists
it's glaring the double standard I don't
even need to linger on it well the
double standard is glaring but I also
think the glorification of violence is
questionable
there's a balance to be struck of course
but
yeah I mean I don't what I don't I don't
think I don't think we should be
glorifying violence
um at all but I don't think we should be
normalizing violence either
uh I think that's that's that's what it
is you know I'll tell you a story
I was interviewing a person whose
brother was killed by the Israeli
military during uh Israeli raid
on their Village and
the person was so concerned about
whether I was gonna report
that
her brother allegedly had a Molotov
cocktail in his hand
and I found it absolutely insane
absolutely
absurd that we can just glance over the
fact that there is again a foreign
military
in tanks with rifles and snipers
invading The Village at 4am in the
morning shooting live ammunition at
people's houses throwing tear gas that
we can just glance over it's normal we
could just report on it no problem
nobody's gonna abandon eyebrow
but
the fact
that potentially somebody might have
picked up a Molotov cocktail to throw it
at this invading Army is where we draw
the line it says a lot it says a lot
about whose violence is normalized is
accepted is institutionalized is
glorified event right yeah and you walk
around Tel Aviv and you see all of the
plaques plastered around then around the
streets of the country of the city
celebrating the battles that they had
won the massacres that they had enacted
against the Palestinian people but God
forbid God forbid Palestinians have any
kind of similar sentiment
so on July 4th during this intense
period a Palestinian rammed a car into
pedestrians at a bus stop in Tel Aviv
injuring eight people before being shot
dead by a passerby
also that night Hamas fire rock is into
Israel and then Israel responded with
strikes on what it said was an
underground weapon site so just to give
some context to the intensives
violence happening here what do you
think about Hamas firing Rockets into
Israel
well it's the framing makes it seem as
though like
unprovoked Hamas is like firing Rockets
onto Israel regards to what I think of
Hamas obviously but unprovoked but
that's not the case the propagation is
the fact that they are forced to live in
a cage
that they have no access to clean water
they have no access to basic rights no
access to uh Imports no access to
anything
that they can't leave they're living in
a densely populated
Enclave that was deemed uninhabitable by
the U.N that was deemed an open air
prison
um so the rockets in any case are
retaliation for the seeds let's start
there but again this is just to prove my
point violence begets violence
Palestinian people are not
violent people we are not violent people
at the core and I think you know what
serves this narrative is islamophobia is
like xenophobia towards Arabs which we
don't have like I don't have the luxury
you know to like to write laws about
um by the way I'm I'm quite I'm quite
you know frustrated by this uh I am I am
preoccupied and the Palestinian people
are preoccupied
um with the material violence that we
have to deal with on the day-to-day the
demolitions the bombings uh the
imprisonment that's what we're
distracted with and and busy with that
we can't even talk about the racism
um The Casual racism against its
anti-palestinian racism in the media on
social media and diplomatic circles and
but all of this all of this racism that
has gone unchecked has not been
regulated
um for decades allows for these tropes
to continue in which Palestinians are
promoted as these like barbaric
terrorists and the only way we could
remedy uh that situation is to is by
marketing them as these like defenseless
victims but the fact of the matter is is
is not this simplistic Palestinian
people are human beings who should enjoy
a full spectrum of humanity which in
includes raids which includes uh the
sustain which includes happiness and joy
and laughter which includes celebration
which includes
um all of these things but we're not
allowed this but we are doing exactly
what any people throughout history who
have been oppressed who have been
colonized who have been occupied have
done and continue to do as we see in
Ukraine which is celebrated by
mainstream media I'm sorry to uh keep
reiterating this point but
you know at this point uh
I am quite you know
exhausted by how exceptional Palestine
and Palestinian resistance is when the
world tells me time and time again that
it doesn't have a problem with violence
it just has a problem with who does that
violence
do you in your mind in in the way you
see this region uh draw a distinction
between the people in power versus the
regular people so you mentioned the
Palestinian people
is there something you can comment on on
Hamas and the PLO
do you see them as fundamentally
different
from the people
uh what does Hamas do well where did
they fall short
I think governments uh wherever globally
any or different from people no
government is a true reflection of its
people I think uh
you know this is even true in the case
of like Arab countries that normalize
with Israel in many of the cases there
are um unelected governments
I think the Palestinian Authority
continues to fail I think there are
subcontractors the Israeli regime
through their security coordination
and also I'd like to use this as an
opportunity to comment a little bit on
the
on the analogy thing not to like
stray away from the question but you
know
um the Palestinian Authority
two years ago killed an opposition
activist named nizarbanat it was a
horrendous crime and I was in Ramallah
with the people protesting against the
Palestinian Authority and at some point
they had their batons the position
Authority police and they beat us with
it and many of the people on the crowd
were liking the Palestinian Authority to
Zionism
I think people this is what people do
we when they are confronted by a great
evil they liken it to some other great
evil and this is where the Hitler
analogy came from
um again I don't think it's like the
best strategy moving forward but I
refuse you know to be
uh
you know criminalized for a little
sentence
but to linger on those in power so one
of the criticisms towards Hamas and PLO
towards the Israeli government
at least the current coalition
government
is um
that there's a lot of incentive to sort
of perpetuate violence to maintain power
there's a hunger for power and and
maintaining that power amongst the
powerful that's the way power works so
is there um a worry you have about
uh those in power not having the best
interests of its people so those empower
the PLO Hamas not
uh
not being incentivized towards peace
towards Justice
you know looking at the PA's action
today it tells you a great deal about
what they're interested in and what
they're not interested in and maybe yeah
the occupation is in their best interest
um and you can infer similar things
looking at at Hamas but the two the two
these two entities virtually have no
power even Hamas
um Yani there is you know the the
context that Hamas is permitted through
by international law uh to use armed
resistance blah blah blah does that mean
Hamas is like equipped to govern Jose I
don't think so does that mean that uh
people around Palestine necessarily want
to want to live under uh
Hamas rule in 2006 Hamas was
democratically elected I don't know if
that's still the case today
um there is there's a lot to be said but
neither of these entities have any real
power
um in in perpetuating they don't the the
only the only body that has access that
can flip the switch and all of this
equation
is Israelis you know they're the ones
who are keeping people in a case they're
the ones who are
um wrapping the West Bank with a with a
wall
um everything else to me is just
secondary regardless of what I think
personally of any of those people I know
personally for me I I the world I
Envision not just policy in the world
they Envision is a world that goes
beyond States that goes beyond this uh
uh framing of power this this hierarchy
in which uh some people will over other
people this whole idea of nation-states
be it Israel or any other nation states
it's
it's it's futile it's not good it's
exclusive I think that we can achieve a
better world than that
well the you know how do you do a better
world they actually if you just Linger
on that like what
the politically speaking geopolitically
you have to have representation of the
people you have to have
laws you have to have leaders in
governing bodies that enact those laws
and all those kinds of things you
probably need to have militaries to
protect
the people can you not imagine a world
without militaries I can imagine it but
we're not in that world
yeah I'm not saying you know I have all
the answers or a PowerPoint in my pocket
you know with the instructions but I I'm
saying the world I'd like to live in is
one that transcends borders is one
that you know does not necessitate
militaries that doesn't necessitate all
of these
um prisons of these walls all of these
racist laws so you don't think violence
is a fundamental part of human nature
that emerges
and uh combined with the hunger for
power
I do think I do think that both of these
things are like truly intrinsic to to
human beings they also do think there is
a way to move Beyond them I'm not saying
I have the answers
um I'm tempted Safeway but
but you have a hope that there doesn't
have to be War yeah yeah in the world
definitely definitely well if we look a
little bit more short term people speak
about a one-state solution a two-state
solution
what is your hope here for um
for this part of the world do do you see
a possible future with a two-state
solution well there's your Palestine in
Israel do you see a one-state solution
where there is a diversity of different
peoples like in the United States and
they have equal rights
in the courts and everywhere else
you know I don't think there's a
geography in which two State solution is
is possible
um as we said earlier swiss cheese
there's literally uh supplements all
over the West Bank
um
and I don't think it's fair
um it's also soon as fair to all of the
people whose homes
um
are still in here for
um in Nazareth in yaffa and so far and I
don't think it's fair that like I'm
gonna have to
travel to another country to visit my
cousin who's married in Nazareth for
example
um
and beyond that it's just not possible
I do believe that whatever you want to
call it one state to stay 48 states 29
States whatever you want to call it
refugees need to return land needs to be
given back
wealth needs to be redistributed
and a recognition of the nakba needs to
happen that is the only way we could
move forward
um and you know regarding whether this
is like a possible situation
for two people
to live side by side
let's ask two questions
let's say you you lived in a house
with a person your roommate you just had
a roommate who constantly beat the shit
out of you
I wonder if you'd want to continue to
live with them that's one
and let's try another scenario let's say
you live in a house with a roommate who
you just
absolutely hate
which is absolutely oppose their
existence as a people
um you don't even give him you know a
key to your to your apartment
let's say now you're like equal Partners
in the apartment would you want to give
would you want to live with him I don't
know we'll see we'll see time will tell
but you know I don't think I don't think
they want to live with us Israelis are
quite good you know especially Israeli
diplomats they're quite good at um using
uh flowery language about peace and
coexistence and so on and so forth and
they're good about they're good with
making us seem insane or radical or like
full of hate and so on and so forth but
the but the but the policies speak from
the from for themselves the the actions
on the ground speak for themselves and I
I truly I mean every time there's an
uptick many of them leave and
I wonder I would like to see I wonder
what would happen in on state solution
well okay so you've spoken eloquently
about the Injustice of the evictions the
demolitions
the settlements
uh but is there uh
can you comment about the difficulty of
the security from an Israel perspective
when there is a large number of people
that want to destroy it
how does Israel exist peacefully
this one state solution I don't know by
not shooting uh you know a journalist
doing her job in the junior refugee camp
but that's not killing a 14 year old
standing on his front yard this whole
talk about you know
security and security fence and the
whole like propaganda of the Israeli
Defense Forces and this whole Iron Wall
ideology in which somehow they are
always defending themselves even though
they're you know Netanyahu and the
Israeli government
continue to talk about an existential
threat
about Iran being an existential threat
even though the Israeli government
is the only body that holds nuclear
weapons
in the reason
they're the most sophisticated Army in
the region and yet they continue hiding
behind their fingers and talking about
an existential threat and talking about
how like they're insecure and and so on
and so forth I came here on the bus you
know I
I I live in a I live in a in a house
where everybody in the world can easily
Google it and get its address and
anybody can just walk into my house and
this is just and I'm lucky and
privileged as a Palestinian journalist
there are many Palestinian journalists
who lose their lives this is like that's
real insecurity but we don't even have
time to whine about it because there's
real shit going on on the ground that we
are preoccupied whether I'm reporting on
all the time that we don't even have the
time to talk about how limited is our
institutional backing how limited is our
you know uh cyber security how limited
is our you know even Healthcare you know
like all of these things we don't even
have time to complain about but they're
the real life things that formulate an
insecure population
um that Israelis the Israel certainly
um does not suffer from
there's a tension here it's it's true
that the ideas of existential threats to
a nation have been used to expand the
military-industrial complex and
to uh to limit the rights of its people
so in the United States after 9 11
Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded
under some justification of their being
Terror in the world these big ideas
and in the same way yes Israel with the
existential threat of Iran is used to
expand its military might over the
region and control over the region but
it also has some truth to it in terms of
the
the threat that Israel is facing
including from Iran if Iran were to get
a nuclear weapon do you think there's a
threat from that but who has the nukes
right now
yeah but like we're talking about this
like Far Away monster that's like we're
we're scared of you know it's like
fear-mongering what do you mean any who
has the nukes some of it is
fear-mongering but uh some of it is true
I don't think it's true I don't think
it's true I think Israelis are obsessed
with genocide because they have enacted
genocide against us even when we talk
about like a future a liberation of
Palestine when we're talking about uh
anything they constantly jump to the
to saying things like oh they want to
throw us into the sea they want to kill
all Jews what kind of hyperbolic
bullshit is that to say that if I am
chanting and Marching for my home not to
be taken away from me by some kind of
settler Court I am somehow demanding the
the murder of all Jews across the world
that is hyperbolic and the fact that we
cuddle cuddle it is insane to me so no I
don't think as things stand right now
um as the power of balance stands right
now I don't think there's an extensive
existential threat to Israel and also
let's redefine what existential threat
do we think Israel
um
the Israeli regime the Zionist regime
should continue to exist in its forms
subjugating people enacting the crime of
apartheid according to a bazillion uh
human rights organizations do we think
that it should continue keeping people
on the cage if that's what people are
fighting to save then that says a lot
about the people who are feeling this
existential threat not me
do your beliefs represent
the Palestinian people meaning
how many people are there that want
Israel to be gone but what does it mean
for Israel to be gone uh what it means
is for people who think of Israel as an
occupier who stole land that needs to go
away that this should be all Palestine
yeah but is that a bad thing for these
borders to be like for for the
occupation to end for these uh for the
land to be given back is that a bad
thing well there's different definitions
of occupation I there's still there's
people in their homes now right but is
it their home I'm not talking about like
I'm not talking about like some random
some random home
um but there are many many many many
many many many many many many many many
many many many Israelis
who drink their coffee every morning
from living rooms that are not theirs
that are not theirs there was they were
taken just a few decades ago yeah where
like the owners the rightful owners of
these homes are still lingering in
refugee camps
are still dreaming of return
there are homes on the land of Israel
that you wouldn't classify as stolen
I mean there is
like if it wasn't told like if it was
built
but is the land stolen right is the but
all of this again I I try not to like
fall into this because it's just like it
it feels so abstract and far away and
and this is not how Liberation is gonna
look like whatsoever and I'm not like
I'm not fixated on ethnic cleansing that
is not I'm not obsessed with ethnic
cleansing I'm obsessed with ending the
ethnic cleansing campaign that has been
that has been visited upon me and my
family and my community for seven plus
decades that's what I'm obsessed with uh
all of this other stuff about what
happens to the settlers and like uh you
know we want to kill all Jews and all of
this I think it's bullshit and I think
it's ridiculous and I think you know
um fixating on it is like distracting
from the focal point
um
there needs to be an end to all of the
injustices to all of the atrocities you
know a little boy from Jerusalem should
be able to go jog around the city
without fearing getting shot that's like
the simplest thing we're asking for here
and we want our land back
and those things do not mean actually at
all the ethnic cleansing of another
people
well but that we should be precise here
so a little boy being able to run around
Jerusalem that's a great vision not just
safely but without
racism yeah without hate
that's a beautiful Vision yes but
people in West Jerusalem
people in Tel Aviv out of homes
do should they stay there if you have
the right to stay there that's like
maybe number 99 on my priorities list
I'm concerned with the refugees I'm
concerned with the teenagers and the in
the prisons I am concerned with my house
I'm concerned with my family's house in
Haifa I'm concerned there's a lot for me
to do before I can even tend
to the needs of my occupier yeah that is
the least of my concerns do you want the
low hanging fruit the obvious injustices
to end yeah
but still the long-term vision
of existential survival of a of Israel
which is the concern of its government
as concern of its people do you see a
future where Israelis
I have a home in the region sure just
not in my front yard you know which
where's the front yard
there's literally there are literally
Jewish settlers yes one of which from
Long Island in my literal front yard yes
and this is the case in hundreds if not
thousands of Palestinian homes you know
no one is saying uh uh Jewish people
shouldn't exist or they shouldn't have
uh a state of their own if they I mean I
think all of all like all all religious
based states are like a bad idea all
nation states are a bad idea but
whatever if that's what they want to do
that's what they want to do but that
doesn't mean that they are allowed or
have a right to create and Implement a
system of Jewish Supremacy at my expense
that's not a crazy thing to say that is
not a controversial thing to say you can
have your state just don't kill anyone
thank you have a good day you know like
that's that's not a crazy thought to
have and uh seek and establish a
symmetry of power in the courts which is
the current source of Injustice I mean
that's when it comes to like force
expulsions in our home but there's other
there's immediate a myriad of other ways
to the military the military I mean the
police
um if you look at like how many times I
should have brought the data with me but
if you look at how little times the
Israeli military or police has and like
investigated
its own people are indicted its own
people I mean just recently
um the killer
um who has been inhaled a hero by some
some of Israeli Society who killed a
Palestinian man who is autistic who
lives inside the occupied old city where
again Israeli military has no business
being there or jurisdiction whatsoever
he was shot and killed by an Israeli
soldier who was trigger happy because
again again they have this like
um Siege mentality where like any moving
object is going to kill them and he was
shot and killed and despite it being in
broad daylight despite being well
documented despite the victim being you
know disabled despite all of this he was
acquitted by the Israeli Court the
military the courts the government they
all work together which is why it's so
ironic to me that there are hundreds of
thousands of people marching on the
streets of Tel Aviv uh you know trying
to save the progressive Beacon that is
the Israeli Supreme Court when you'll
find its fingerprints all over the
injustices perpetuated against
Palestinians be it you know
legalizing and upholding the withholding
of slain Palestinian bodies who were
killed by the Israeli military to be
used as bargaining trips with Israeli
militaries be it making decisions to
dispossess entire Villages like
be it never once uh you know granting
release to any Palestinian who was held
in administrative detention without
charge or trial be it upholding the
legality of the family reunification law
that does not allow Palestinian couples
who hold different legal statuses of
reuniting and living together as
families I mean those are just some of
the few things I can think of about the
Israeli Supreme Court so they're like
the real the the real tension that
exists is
the lack of diversity on the Israeli
political spectrum that makes the vision
for a future so limited because those on
what seems to be like the the far left
um are defending and are defending an
extremely conservative
um institution that is a supreme court
that they record as Progressive when in
fact it is the opposite
uh of such so what what do we do how can
we how can we talk how can we have peace
with with people who
who are chanting to save you know the
very body that is displacing us you know
it's it's ridiculous what's your vision
let's just take it as a microcosm of
Jerusalem what's your vision for
Jerusalem looks like with a peaceful
coexistence of people
you know as it looked like before before
the Israeli
State emerged I mean we should be
reading our history here
um when you read like European and white
um
historians they'll tell you like
Palestine was Barren many of them would
say like it was even without a people
there were nobody nobody was there or
like
some of them will say we were
uncivilized but the fact of the matter
is Palestine
Jerusalem particularly had a diversity
of religion um druze Jewish people you
know my grandmother continues to talk
about well she continued until she died
she continued to talk about her Jewish
Neighbors when she grew up in the old
city or like when she was born in the
old city and then her Jewish neighbors
um in Haifa we even had one Jewish
member of our family M Sammy actually
um who just also recently passed away
their like Jews were a part of Palestine
and they spoke Hebrew a different kind
of Hebrew with this book Hebrew and they
were people really need to read the
Hundred Years War on Palestine it's it's
really an excellent synopsis of the
history but this whole idea that this is
like some kind of war between two
religions is so misleading because
what's happening is
a bunch of frankly European settlers
with a certain political secular
ideology
came and relocated here and turned it
into a religious conflict between people
who have lived harmoniously together for
decades before that and you know the
whole idea be it like you know Christian
Zionism or you know John Hagee or like
the calls for Jews to leave the United
States and relocate in in Israel or like
you know uh recently which we've heard
about a long time ago
um but recently an Israeli historian
confirmed uh uh the fact that Israeli
organizations were bombing Baghdad
and bombing synagogues in Iraq to get
Iraqi Jews to leave and come relocate in
Israel right all of this is manufactured
and again none of this is a conspiracy
theory I know it sounds absurd and and
you know anytime I like look at my my
life from a bird's eye view I think what
a circus but it's but it's real and it's
it's verifiable Yanni
call the fact suckers you mentioned the
land registry can you can you elaborate
what's happening there yeah yeah
absolutely so
um our small victory in the Israeli
courts
um was that they would keep us in our
homes until a land registry is completed
basically it means that they have to
check who owned the land prior
um and then they could decide if or if
the land is ours or the land belongs to
the Israeli
um seller organizations that are
headquartered in the United States and
enjoy a tax exempt status here
um and that sounds great
on the surface but then you look at
Israeli law you look at Israeli courts
you look at ownership and you see that
oh Israelis refuse to
authenticate or take into consideration
any land ownership documents from the
prior of the establishment of the state
so all of us in Jerusalem who have their
taboo papers their ownership papers from
the ottoman era that's not legit in the
eyes of the Israeli court because that
existed before like your ownership Deeds
existed long before Israel even existed
so we're not going to take this into
consideration so not to be cynical here
but unfortunately the the likely result
of the land registry is that they're
going to say oh all of this land belongs
to these Jewish organizations because
they're not going to take any of our
documents into consideration
but that means that there's going to be
another campaign and there's going to be
a long-winded fight and we'll see what
happens but that's that's the fear and
there's there's a huge Dreadful fear of
a massive loss in property in Jerusalem
following this land registry for the
reasons I just told you it's the mere
fact that they just refuse
to look at land ownership documents what
is the process of the fighting this in
the course look like if you can maybe
just comment on it so there's I always
make a joke without being in an Israeli
court is like playing a game of broken
uh broken telephone because you know
everybody's speaking in Hebrew and then
like your lawyer says something to your
dad and your dad says something to your
mom and your mom Whispers it in your ear
and then you're like
you say it to your cousin your cousin
has like a completely different idea of
the verdict than what the verdict is but
that's really the reality so a lot of
the fights happen family by family no
it's like groups so like if in our case
it's like four houses every four houses
um but again it happens in a language we
do not speak and a lot of the time our
strategy is buying time
and you know building a Global campaign
like we have we know that there is no
recourse in um in the Israeli courts I
mean My grandmother used to say and this
is like a popular proverb if you're if
your enemy is the judge
to whom do you complain so the to the
whom you you complain is maybe the
International Community yeah I mean in
our case in our case it was the
International Community but in our case
also it wasn't just the International
Community it was like the hundreds of
thousands of people in Palestine and
abroad who are
marching on the streets getting beaten
and brutalized in Jerusalem and I don't
know sometimes arrested in places like
Germany and and so on and so forth
um who who forced themselves inside the
media cycle this was what was unique
about we were able to penetrate an
industry that usually ignores us and
usually refuses to use any of our
framing any of our quotations and these
people that March these people that
spread the rhetoric
um spread the facts wrote articles these
people that made videos online and and
got arrested and many of whom are still
in Israeli prisons paying higher prices
than I have ever paid these people are
the ones that truly moved the
International Community into action it
wouldn't have you know the United States
I don't think would have said anything
had it not been for the immense media
pressure that was created from the
immense popular pressure there are a lot
of moving parts to a global campaign and
I think it's so impressive you know that
we were able to do this without any
media backing without any institutional
backing without any training without
without any budget nothing you mentioned
the United States uh what's the role of
the United States
in the struggle that you've been
describing what's the positive what's
the negative
the role is perpetuating what's
happening honey
it's all a negative role to be honest
with the money with power yeah it's like
the 3.8 billion in military aid every
year
it's the standing ovation Israel is the
largest recipient of U.S foreign AIDS
since World War II to date United States
has provided Israel 150 billion dollars
as you said is providing currently 3.8
billion every year
um
that a lot of people raised the question
of what's the interest of tax paying
American citizens in this kind of yeah
zero interest foreign aid what's your
interest I don't think Americans I think
Americans a lot of Americans are
concerned with health care a lot of
Americans are concerned with clean water
in Flint I don't think they are
concerned with funding apartheid in
another country and I think it's a
disturbing phenomenon that although
public opinion in the United States is
Shifting I would argue
drastically about Palestine
people in Washington are yet to catch up
it was only I think nine Congress people
who boycotted herzog's speech
um in Congress yesterday and he received
Standing Ovation after Standing Ovation
after Standing Ovation after sending
Ovation and I wonder
um if the everyday American
is concerned that many of their
politicians are Israel first politicians
are politicians who care more about
maintaining a relationship with the
Israeli regime that they care about
their own districts
you've tweeted that 49 years ago gassan
kind of funny
you can maybe correct me on the
pronunciation was assassinated you wrote
quote his revolutionary articulations of
the Palestinian plight for Liberation
shook the colonial regime yet he's not
dead his ideas remain ever timely and
teachable and he also tweeted an excerpt
from his writing between 1936 and 1939
the Palestinian revolutionary movement
suffered a severe setback at the hands
of three separate enemies that were to
constitute together the principal threat
to the Nationalist movement in Palestine
in all subsequent stages of its struggle
won the local reactionary leadership to
the regimes in the Arab states
surrounding Palestine and three the
imperialist Zionist enemy can you
analyze what he means by those three
things
the local reactionary leadership the
regimes in the Arab states surrounding
Palestine and the Imperial Zionist enemy
and also could you comment on him as a
person yeah I mean what's the kind of
funny is a brilliant uh brilliant
brilliant writer and uh he was prolific
he's authored so much books
even though he was assassinated in the
70s but you know he was 37 if I'm not
mistaken 35 when he was assassinated
you know he was an inspiration to me in
in school and I remember like even
even my teachers had qualms about him
because he was like a secular person but
I I loved Austin he has a beloved figure
in the Palestinian community and I hope
to one day be able to like
Shiva fraction
um of what he's achieved in the terms of
like shaping a political Consciousness
for Palestinians and four people in the
region did he classify himself as a as a
politician as a philosopher as an
activist uh do you know he was a writer
but he was also part of the Palestine uh
personal in Liberation Front pflp so he
used the words
to fight
Freedom yeah I don't think he would
would have would have thought his words
were divorced from other forms of
struggle but I think he recognized the
importance of culture uh and shaping
culture and shaping public opinion
um both in achieving uh
you know
a shift in global stance and also in
achieving you know an Awakening in the
Palestinian generation as well you know
there's a very famous uh famous
interview of his where he's talking to
uh I believe a British journalist and
the British journalist is asking him why
don't you
why don't you have talks with the
Israelis and he means what do you mean
talks you mean capitulation you mean
talking that you can't have a
conversation between The Sword and the
neck
um and they think that that really
summarizes the kind of you know
values listed for now to talk about the
three things local reactionary
leadership regimes in the Arab states
surrounding Palestine and the Imperial
Zionist enemy yeah so in in today's
terms the local reactionary leadership
is the Palestinian Authority
the regional regimes we're talking about
you know actually you know the
normalization deals that have emerged in
recent years the abrahamic Accords
have been talked about as though they're
like groundbreaking new
um
phenomenon but many Arab countries have
normalized relations with the Israeli
regime
um since the birth of the state it's not
a new thing
um but yes the only word he I think he
was talking about Egypt and Jordan at
the time today we can include
United Arab Emirates we could include
Bahrain we could include Morocco
um
and you know these again these abrahamic
Accords they are promoted
and marketed and talked about as some
kind of like religious uh
reconciliation which I think is the most
disgusting thing ever because they're
not about religious reconciliation
they're about arms deals and economic
deals and they're about you know
consolidating power in the region
they're about Mutual strategic interests
that all of these nations have together
and some people argue that you know
Palestine is no longer an Arab cause
because our Arab countries are
normalizing but most of these
governments if not all actually all
these governments that have normalized
most of them are monarchies
um are not elected governments and they
do not
um represent the will of the people or
the desires or the opinions of their
peoples and the proof to this is like
places like Jordan
and
Egypt even though they've normalized and
had peace agreements with Israel for
many many many years
Palestine and the Palestinian cause was
still a talking point in the political
campaigning of politicians the Jordanian
Egyptian politicians and continues to be
um for them to gain popularity because
that's where the hearts of the people
are
um and then you know the Zionist regime
is quite explanatory the Imperial
Zionist regime I mean what else do you
call a regime that sought help from
imperialist powers to depopulate an
entire country and build a new one on
top of it
so mostly you say the thing
that Abraham records achieved is a
is a negative thing for Palestine
so these kinds of agreements amongst the
power
about the uh between the leadership is
not uh yeah it's not positive for for
the region no no obviously they're going
to be marketed as as positive and
obviously another
they're gonna
have this flowery language surrounding
them and and the idiots in the room
might like nod and smile but anybody
with critical thinking skills can know
that if a people continue to be under
occupation you know that's there's
nothing positive there and it's also
there's you know let's linger a little
bit on the mutual interests the only way
Morocco could normalize relations with
the Israeli regime
is
so that the Israeli regime could
recognize Moroccan sovereignty over in
the western Sahara
which just happened actually last week
and now Morocco uh and before that
Morocco recognized uh Sovereign Israeli
sovereignty over the West Bank it's not
like Morocco itself is just has no
interest in this kind of uh deal
you mentioned that uh you you hope of
accomplishing uh some of the things that
Hassan kind of finding was able to
accomplish
let me ask you a silly question perhaps
a silly question do you have interest in
running for political office
in uh
or in into leadership I hear laughter in
the room
um to lead
in a leadership position in Palestine
not not currently no
not at all let's see if this ages well I
don't think you know I I don't think
there's there's a body through what's
you know I can run for anything it's
like
they're completely dysfunctional and
also you know I don't want to wear a
suit all the time that's
who would want to do that
so from which kind of pedestal or from
which kind of uh stage do you think you
could be most effective
you know I I speak I was born and raised
in Jerusalem I speak perfect Arabic I
think my my Arabic writing is much
Superior to my English writing but I
choose to
um write in English because
I think there's not there's a disparity
and there's a Chasm between what is
um said in Arabic on this in the street
in Palestine and what is said here
about Palestinians
um both by
anti-palestinian racists and people who
are pro Palestine and advocates for
Palestine and I believe I and a few
others from my Generations or many
others actually from my own generation
are working to fill that Chasm and I
also believe that literature culture the
public sphere changing the public
opinion changing the narrative is
important to affecting policy to
affecting change affecting material
change you know I'm not gonna I'm not
gonna go read a poem in front of uh in
front of a checkpoint in what's it cuts
in Flames that's not I'm not I'm not
that delusional about the power of words
but I do think
that
I have a responsibility and I have a
privileged even to have a voice to have
some kind of platform and if I'm not you
know defining myself if I'm not talking
and representing myself then other
people will Define me and their their
definitions of the Palestinian people
across the few past decades have not
been coined or generous to the
Palestinian people that's one thing the
other thing is I believe in the United
States as a as a front for change
um I believe we have a lot more leverage
here than we do back home
um again I believe in in
someone said the other day I can't I
can't remember their name but someone
said no stone unturned I believe in in
fighting on all fronts but here really I
can go I can go protest in front of the
Israeli Embassy without getting shot
um there's a lot there's a lot of work
to be to be done here there's a lot of
people
um waking up I would even argue that a
reckoning is coming
um in the American public and more and
more American people are concerned where
their tax money is going or concerned
what their politicians are invested in
more and more American people are saying
not on our dime are saying not uh you
know
not not not today not not here and
also there's many Palestinians in the
diaspora uh here in the United States
and Europe
who uh benefit and could benefit from
political education and in in the
English language because of diaspora
across history the Palestinian investor
has been affected in the 70s and the 80s
any
you know and I'm hoping ever since 2021
there has been a Resurgence of the power
and influence of the Palestinian
diaspora
to ask another silly question since you
mentioned the United States I don't know
if you follow the politics in the United
States but uh do you have a preference
of presidential candidates in the 2024
election
or is that do you follow I do follow
where each candidate stands under
different policies I do I think
everybody in the world should be able to
vote for American elections actually I
do follow because of the influence yes
yes yeah
um
I don't have a preference uh whatsoever
I don't you know I saw Cornell West on
CNN I don't think you know
I don't know if he's Gonna Go Far with
his campaign Cornelius is running with
the green party and I don't think he's
going to achieve much success but I saw
him on CNN
um berating Anderson Cooper and I
enjoyed that very much wouldn't mind
seeing that on my screen
regularly regularly but okay don't
really have an opinion about you know
Euro Rifka a book of poetry how did that
come about maybe you can
tell the story of of that book coming to
be
you know I signed the book when I had a
lot a lot less visibility
um in the world so when I didn't think
thousands and thousands and thousands
people would be reading it I decided to
include many poems which I wrote when I
was young
um because it's a it's a long it's a
long it's a long journey this book
um it's it starts in Jerusalem it goes
to Atlanta it goes back to Jerusalem and
then it ends in New York
and the river is the name of my
grandmother and it's it's it's an Arabic
name a Hebrew name and it means to
accompany someone
and I I wanted to write about
displacement
in a way that was beyond what we read
about in English
poetry has a medium I don't know if I
have much faith in it anymore
to be honest maybe like I'm turned off
by it um and I'll revisit it again in a
few years
but at the time of writing this book
poetry as a medium it
really was
a source of Hope and inspiration for me
so my mother was a was a poet and she
would
you know her and my dad would play this
game in the morning she would read her
poems to him and he would guess which
lines
would be red penciled by the Israeli
military censor because she would submit
her poems to the local newspaper
newspaper and you know the military
sensor has to go over it
and you know she would get her poems
back with a bunch of words erased and
they would laugh about it was very much
part of my my upbringing and you know as
a Palestinian when you're excluded from
mainstream spaces including media and
journalism poetry tends to be a place
where you can say what you want to say
without repercussions and I say that I
realize that our greatest
writer I was thinking if any literally
had his car bombed exploded because of
his ratings and you know recently during
tattur a poet with Palestinian poet with
an Israeli citizenship was imprisoned
for a few months for publishing a poem
on Facebook in which he said resist my
people resist
so even that is not necessarily true
but anyway it just felt like I could
it's a place where I could talk and
express uh large ideas in a simplistic
way
and you know the best example I could
give you is one of my favorite poets uh
when when the Israeli authorities
decided to do the land the land law
which classified
um I believe 93 of
historic Palestine is Israeli owned
state-owned forgive me and then when
when they also did the absentee property
law which allows uh the Israeli
governments take over homes that were
depopulated from the Palestinian owners
he wrote a poem called God as a refugee
it's a kind of a sarcastic sardonic poem
in which he goes you know God has become
a refugee sir so confiscate even the
carpet of the mosque and sell the church
because it's his property and seller
orphans because their father is absent
and do whatever you want blow it's like
it's a sarcastic poem that was in
reaction to these laws that translated
to the everyday Palestinian to the
farmers to the landowners what these
bureaucratic complicated laws meant to
them what they meant to their land and
what it meant how what what effect
are these laws going to have on these
people's lands and that I think is the
role of poetry that I try to to achieve
so poetry ultimately
prizes The Power of Words And So It the
medium the power of the media of poetry
transfers nicely to the any medium that
celebrates words so even
I mean just writing novels uh tweeting
yeah you're also working on a new book
a memoir what's the title uh what can
you say about it
Memoir is bizarre because you know I'm
So Young so it's not really my Memoir
but it's rather the Memoir a member of
the neighborhood which I grew up the
title the tentative title is a million
States and one and it's so not to how
many different realities and universes
exist in this tiny one country
um and it's you know it's it's kind of
it's kind of a documentation of the two
waves of exposure of expulsion in 2009
and 2020 and 2021 and the kind of behind
the scenes of The Campaign that took
place the Diplomatic and media campaign
and Grassroots campaign that took place
to save our homes and it's also an
exploration of other uh
communities that are threatened with
with the expulsion and other communities
who are resisting in their own way be it
in beta and nabulous or South herban
Hills in in masafiriotto or in silhouan
or um in the club all these communities
that are dealing with different forms of
expulsion and you know the emphasis that
I'm trying to achieve with this book is
dignity
um I want to write a book
about uh you know my
my experiences that is like super that
is super dignified that kind of kicks
its
feet up on the table and says what it
wants unabashedly because you know
we are told not only are we going to be
victimized but we are going to be polite
in our suffering and I want to reject
that completely and I want to lean into
the humor of the past few years of my
life because I think that's really what
the world needs and what I need to be
writing a few questions here but one of
them is about humor uh in rivka you
wrote my mother has always said the most
tragic of disasters is those that cause
laughter
what do you think she meant by that
yeah it's I don't know if I mean it's my
mom that's my mom saying but I don't
know if it's like probably a proverb
that I first heard from my mom but it's
uh Tech like uh
the most evil of atrocity is what makes
you laugh
and it can be you know it's open for
interpretation
um you should be you should be aware of
one one school of thought would say you
should be a weary of the things that
make you laugh but another school of
thought is
would say this is a commentary on like
our natural reactions to tragedies right
in like 2012 2011 something like this we
have like a protest
and
um after the protest all of the women of
the neighborhood were sitting down under
the the Fig Tree of our neighborhood
which they always do and you know
a bunch of soldiers maybe 40 soldiers
started marching down this the street
and everybody dispersed and hidden their
homes but my aunt who has now passed
away my aunt refused to go home she
wanted to to gather her teacups because
she really cared about her teacups
um so I was begging her to go inside and
she refused she was getting her tea cup
so a soldier
a soldier you know uh
grabbed me and squeezed me between his
baton and an electricity pole and it was
very excruciatingly painful and
traumatizing for me as a child but it
was
it's also like a funny memory in in a
way despite the pain despite the
the trauma that came with it it was it's
there's still something funny about it
the absurdity of it yeah and it's like
it's dignifying to find humor in these
kinds of things it makes you realize you
are not so weak you are not so powerless
another thing is you know my same on too
is like super obsessed with cleanliness
would
um you know insist on not going
to sleep before washing the dishes and I
would always sit there and say what
you're just gonna like you're gonna give
them the house clean like you can leave
it dirty so they have to clean it up and
these little things although like
incredibly you know absurd and
um telling of a harrowing reality that
our family and many in the neighborhood
were living are also the coping
um
mechanisms that we were using to to deal
with our everyday
uh reality
and so much in the public framing of
Palestinians be it in media and novels
and diplomacy and so on and so forth
is that of the powerless victim is that
of the person who only weeps you know
like Israeli propagandists for example
um will like show pictures on Twitter of
like a a house in Russia and they'll be
like look this house has Windows like
they're talking about their BC's but
they have a nice they have a balcony on
their house what are they talking about
like you know or like they'll show a
video of a supermarket like how come
they're talking about a blockade when
they have a supermarket and blah blah as
though you know the ceiling has been so
lowered that we can't even afford Joy
anymore or you know a little supermarket
in the neighborhood
so as a poet as a writer I've written a
book of poetry now working a new book
what can you say
about your process of crafting words I
think people listening to this can can
hear that there's a poetry the way you
speak in English
so
somebody that cares about
the craftsmanship of words in both
English and Arabic what can you say
about your process
uh it's a lot more neat than like this
conversation it's like I am obsessed
with with sentences and it takes me a
long time to like
finish a piece of writing I'm I I'm a
perfectionist do you edit a lot I edit
all the time and I like can't move on
from one sentence until it's perfect but
I will say my other writer friends here
in New York do not face
is how
easily disrupted my writing is by other
news
any all picture stories in my editor
about something for example and then as
I'm writing it
20 minutes and some kid was shot and
killed by the Israeli military so you
have to say something about it and then
30 minutes later as I'm writing it
there's news about a home demolition in
silhouette and there is this Relentless
um onslaught of news that prevents us
and depresses of the ability to analyze
to frame to think to conceptualize to
you know to write beyond the current
affairs were stuck in this in the
relentlessness of the occupation
that a lot of the time I worry that the
the things I'm writing are always in
reaction to a crime that took place to a
a bombing that took place and so on and
so forth and I think that's
unfortunately true for so many
Palestinian writers so
you know
I would say isolation and like stepping
away from the news is very important
um to do but I don't do it
so okay so the the struggled to find the
time that the Timeless message in it is
uh an ongoing struggle for you I mean
there is there is the the Timeless you
know it's not even timelessness it's
Timeless I think what what you're right
is always timely because the occupation
is ongoing but the struggle is you know
moving beyond the news and tackling more
nuances
um because my in Arabic I can in Arabic
I can philosophy as I can talk about
violence then I can talk about my
complicated relationship with violence
or like my complicated I can complicate
and nuance and give things Nuance but in
English people still do not believe we
are under occupation even though it is
an internationally recognized fact that
is broadcasted 24 7 to the world's most
watched screens so we're stuck in like a
practice of providing facts and figure
as in actually this happened and and
this person did this and and according
to international law and blah blah blah
so we're stuck in this because the basic
truths about our own existence are
denied that we don't even have the
luxury of you know
evolving or rating Beyond it or at least
evolving my writing Beyond it and this
is what I'm trying to do with this
notebook
it does fascinating that in English
you're uh your brain is more inclined to
be
to go towards activism or as in Arabic
you have the luxury to be more a
philosopher I wouldn't say activism I
would say journalism like just uh just
making sure you know like disrupting the
flow of the sentence to insert a
statistic or insert a
historical fact that should be employed
yeah and should be a household name but
it's not
um you know
I can't just say that Akbar I have to
say the nakaba the 1948 total near total
Destruction of fasting Society at the
hands of Zionist militias that leader
formed the Israeli military that now
terrorizes us today and there's like and
there's like three tier legal system
blah blah you I can just say knock about
you have to give all of these
explanations
and that's that's heartbreaking and
people ought to do better people are
ought to you know do better this is not
it's not it's not what my uh literature
should be limited to it's not what
anybody's literature should be going to
do it's the job of
it's the job of you know news reporters
to reward the news but a lot of the time
they use looted language they use
passive voice they offer skate facts
and it's on the shoulders of us
the heavy carrying would you say the
depressing in in the United States
does a good or poor job of covering
Israel and Palestine terrible job
horrible job what's up they don't do
their job whatsoever what are the
biggest failings not mentioning that a
town is occupied when you're reporting
about an occupied Town not mentioning
that a settlement is illegal or a
settler is illegally present you know
Palestinian Village when you're
reporting on them only quoting
um
Israeli officials and only quoting
Israeli Protestants and police officers
and framing your entire analysis with
Israeli officials and only interviewing
Palestinians when they have
um been brutalized and victimized
physically yeah those are some of the
issues there's there is plenty and then
like saying things you know like is
Israel will
um Israel will bomb a hospital in Gaza
and the Press will say like Hamas run
hospital and this negative association
with Hamas will remove any sympathy from
the reader towards the victims of this
Hospital bombing
um a lot of things that a lot of a lot
of them are Sinister I have many friends
many journalists friends and I've seen
many journalists online speak about
their experiences when talking about
Palestine the censorship that goes on
into it
um and you have many journalist friends
some at the New York Times some
um
they used to be at Washington Post who
tell me the kinds of battles they had to
do they had to go through with their
editors to let them even utter the word
Palestine
and not even on in like news pieces like
pieces about
let's say a Palestinian artist or a
Palestinian Chef or whatever you know
there's lots of there's there's a lot
that happens behind the scene that is
not reported on
um because when it comes to Palestine
the the rules and the laws of Journalism
are bendable you know passive voice is
King emitting facts is acceptable
Anything Goes
so you personally just psychologically
what would have been
the lowest points in your life
the darkest points
a recent study came out and said that 52
percent of Palestinians have depression
I would argue that the number is much
much higher I think it would be absurd
um for someone to live under the
conditions we live under and not
contemplate
many things many things not just suicide
but many many many things and if and if
people were to put themselves in our
shoes for just one day they would
understand
um
where all of the raids and all the
resistance is coming from
um it's not an easy life
so where do you find the strength I'm
I'm surrounded by good people and I'm
I I'm starting to make with people and I
don't even think of it as a strength I
think that this is my obligation it just
feels like the thing I have to do it's
not I don't need inspiration I don't
need strength I don't need
it's it's just my obligation it's just
there is a great travesty taking place
in the world
um
and I and few others
have been put in a place where we're
able to talk about it to a few more
people and it's just my obligation I
have to do it what gives you hope about
the future of Palestine what gives me
hope about what the future of Boston is
taking a look at history and
understanding the across history there
has not been an injustice that lingered
um endlessly you know everything comes
on to an end it's not necessarily
there's not necessarily like a perfect
resolution for everything
but nothing nothing
continues and it's and it's in the form
that it started in and the occupation
and colonialism and Palestine and
Zionism all of these things are not at
all sustainable whatsoever
um so taking a look at history you know
a lot of a lot of what I'm saying um
today and what I have said in your
podcast many people would have would be
you know Pro clutching hearing me say
what I say but I always try to remind
myself of that during Jim Crow during
slavery during the Holocaust
um
during the occupation of Algeria during
any point of colonialism
in the African continent
um
people did not possess the moral Clarity
they possessed today when they talk
about these things and all of these
things were contested and controversial
and in many many cases legal and today
they are deplorable condemnable and
people say never again and they don't
remember them so that's what gives me
hope is believing in the you know
and believing in the inevitability of
Justice
what do you love most about Palestine
what are like maybe little things that
you remember from your childhood from
your life there in each Jerusalem and
elsewhere they you just brings a smile
to your face
I think this is the unabashedness uh
uh of Palestinians
um where people who are told
and were at some point were told by the
large majority of the world that we
should shrink ourselves that we should
be ashamed of who we are that we are
monsters that we are terrorists that we
are blah blah
and Palestinian people don't really give
a shit you know they're continuing to
live as they do they continue to resist
they continue to write they continue to
to do to do all that they do and they
love them the most and they love our
ability to laugh more than anything else
uh one thing is that's under
misunderstood in America in American
culture about Palestinian culture or
just Western culture in there is like
martyrdom culture
a lot of the time people
um will will you know broadcast images
of Palestinian women cheering when their
sons have been killed
by um
the Israeli forces and they'll say you
know these people glorify death and
these people are eager to like have sex
with 70 virgins in heaven and so on and
so forth but that's not the case the
whole idea of the occupation when they
are killing our children the whole idea
is that they are trying to break our
Spirits so these mothers whose hearts
are broken who are anguished who are you
know so
so in so much pain when they are
cheering they are not they are not
celebrating they're not seeing they are
they are letting the occupier know that
you have not broken my spirit I have not
yet been defeated and I think that is
beautiful it's the same thing with our
prison culture you know Palestinians are
fascinating in the sense that
Palestinians go to prison and they study
and they come out with degrees they can
part they can find ways to participate
in Civil Society
um they can even smuggle you know sperm
from prison to give a life outside of it
because they understand in their
philosophy of Prisons they understand
that these structures these buildings
were built to break your spirits so what
do you do you allow you don't allow it
to break your spirits you're resisted
you you continue to to hold on to life
you continue to hold on to your love of
life you continue to hold on to your
love of freedom and you'll come out of
prison and you're celebrated by your
community
and the prison has not broken your
spirit so all of these
structures and systems that is the
designist movement has put into place
via the shoot to kill policies or the
prisons or the demolishing our homes
that were meant to kill our spirits
they don't you you demolish the home in
in Jerusalem and the people say don't
worry we'll we'll build another and you
demolishing will build another that's
what I admire most about the Palestinian
people it's this resilience and you know
people love to say resilience but I
think it's stubbornness I think we're
such a stubborn people and I think
that's that's great
well uh Muhammad thank you for being a
man who exemplifies this unbreakable
Spirit uh thank you for the words
you've written the words you've spoken
and thank you for talking today this is
an honor and this is uh thank you for
educating me thank you so much
thanks for listening to this
conversation with Muhammad alcard to
support this podcast please check out
our sponsors in the description and now
let me leave you with some words from
Nelson Mandela
it always seems impossible until
it's done
thank you for listening and hope to see
you next time