Kind: captions
Language: en
if we now find ourselves inside this
kind of world of illusions
created by an alien intelligence that we
don't understand but it understands us
this is a kind of you know spiritual
enslavement that we won't be able to
break out of because it understands us
it understands how to manipulate us but
we don't understand
what is behind this screen of stories
and images and and songs
the following is a conversation with
Yvonne Noah Harari a historian
philosopher and author of several highly
acclaimed highly influential books
including sapiens homodeus and 21
lessons for the 21st century he is also
an outspoken critic of Benjamin
Netanyahu and the current right-wing
government in Israel so while much of
this conversation is about the history
and future of human civilization we also
discuss the political turmoil of
present-day Israel providing a different
perspective from that of my recent
conversation with Benjamin Netanyahu
this is the last treatment podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Yuval Noah Harari
13.8 billion years ago is the origin of
our universe
3.8 billion years ago is the origin of
life here on our little planet the one
we call Earth
let's say 200 000 years ago is the
appearance of early Homo sapiens so let
me ask you this question how rare are
these events in the vastness of space
and time or put it in a more fun way how
many intelligent aliens civilizations do
you think are out there in this universe
us being one of them I suppose there
should be some statistically but we
don't have any evidence but I do think
that you know intelligence in any way
it's a bit overvalued
we are the most intelligent entities on
this planet and look what we're doing
so intelligence also tends to be
self-destructive which implies that if
there are or were intelligent life forms
elsewhere maybe they don't survive for
long so you think there's a tension
between happiness and intelligence
absolutely intelligence is definitely
not
something that is directed towards
amplifying happiness I I would also
emphasize the huge huge difference
between intelligence and Consciousness
which many people certainly in the tech
industry and in the AI industry tend to
miss
intelligence is simply the ability to
solve problems
to attain goals
and you know to to win a chess to win a
struggle for survival to win a war to
drive a car to diagnose a disease this
is intelligence
Consciousness is the ability to feel
things like pain and pleasure and love
and hate in humans and other animals
intelligence and Consciousness go
together they go hand in hand which is
why we confuse them we solve problems we
attain goals by having feelings
but other types of intelligence
certainly in computers computers are
already highly intelligent and as far as
we know they have zero Consciousness
when a computer beats you at chess or go
or whatever it doesn't feel happy if it
loses it doesn't feel sad
and uh there could be also other highly
intelligent
entities out there in the universe that
have zero Consciousness and I think that
Consciousness is far more important and
valuable than intelligence
can you stream on the case that
Consciousness and intelligence
are intricately connected so not just in
humans but anywhere else they have to go
hand in hand is it possible for you to
imagine such a universe
it it could be but we don't know yet
again we have examples certainly we know
of examples of high intelligence without
Consciousness computers are one example
um as far as we know
plants are not conscious
yet they are intelligent they can solve
problems they can attain goals in very
sophisticated ways
um so um
the other way around to have
Consciousness without any intelligence
this is probably impossible but to
having intelligence without
Consciousness yes that's possible a
bigger question is whether any of that
is tied to organic biochemistry we know
on this planet only about carbon-based
life forms whether you're an amoeba a
dinosaur a tree a human being you're
based on organic biochemistry
um is there an essential connection
between organic biochemistry and
Consciousness do all conscious entities
everywhere in the universe or in the
future on planet Earth have to be based
on carbon is there something so special
about carbon as an element that an
entity based on Silicon will never be
conscious I don't know maybe
but again this is a key question about
computer and computer consciousness
that can computers eventually become
conscious even though they are not
organic the jury is still out on that I
don't know I mean that we have to take
both options into account well a big
part of that
is do you think we humans would be able
to detect other intelligent beings other
conscious beings another way to ask that
is it possible that the aliens are
already here and we don't see them
meaning are we
very human-centric in our understanding
of one the definition of life to the
definition of intelligence and three the
definition of consciousness
the aliens are here they are just not
from outer space AI which is usually
stands for artificial intelligence I
think it stands for alien intelligence
because uh AI is an alien type of
intelligence it solves problems attains
goals in a very very different way in an
alien way from human beings and I'm not
implying that AI Came From Outer Space
it came from Silicon Valley but it is
alien to us if there are alien
intelligent or conscious entities that
came from outer space already here and
I've I've not seen every any evidence uh
for it it's not impossible but you know
in science evidence is everything well I
mean I guess instructive there's uh just
having the humility to look around to
think about living beings that operate
at a different time scale a different
spatial scale and I think that's all
useful when starting to analyze
artificial intelligence
is
possible that even the language models
the larger language models we have today
are already conscious I I highly doubt
it but I think Consciousness in
social norms because we cannot prove
Consciousness in anybody except
ourselves we know that we are conscious
because we are feeling it we have direct
access to our subjective Consciousness
we have we cannot have any proof that
any other entity in the world any other
human being or parents our best friends
we don't have proof that they are
conscious you know this is this has been
known for thousands of years this is the
card this is Buddha this is Plato we we
don't we can't have this sort of proof
what we do have is Social conventions
social convention that all human beings
are conscious it's also applies to
animals most people who have pets are
firmly believe that their patch pets are
conscious but a lot of people still
refuse to acknowledge that about cows or
pigs now pigs are far more intelligent
than dogs and cats in according to many
measures yet when you go to the
supermarket and and buy a a piece of
Frozen pigment you don't think about it
as a conscious entity why do you think
of your dog as conscious but not of the
of the bacon that you buy because you
build a relationship with the dog and
you don't have a relationship with the
bacon Now relationships they are they
don't constitute a logical proof for
Consciousness there are a social tests
that the Turing test is a social test
it's not a logical proof now if you
establish a a mutual relationship with
an entity
when you are invested in it emotionally
you're almost compelled to feel that the
other side is also conscious
and when it comes down to Ai and
computers I think and I don't think that
at the present moment computers are
conscious but people are already forming
intimate relationships with AIS and are
therefore
almost irresist it's almost irresistible
they're compelled to to increasingly
feel that these are conscious entities
and I think
we are quite close to the point when the
legal system will have to take this into
account
that even though I don't think computers
have Consciousness I think we are close
to the point the legal system will start
treating them as conscious entities
because of this social convention
what to you is uh social convention
just a funny little side effect a little
artifact or is it fundamental to what
Consciousness is because if it is
fundamental then it seems like AI is
very good at forming these kinds of deep
relationships with humans yeah and
therefore it will be able to be a nice
Catalyst for
integrating itself into these social
conventions of ours
it was built to accomplish that yeah we
are designed again you know all these
arguments between a a a natural
selection and uh creationism intelligent
design
um as far as the past go all entities
evolved by natural selection the funny
thing is but when you look at the future
more and more entities will come out of
intelligent design not of some God above
the clouds but of our intelligent design
and the intelligent design of our clouds
of our Computing clouds they will Design
more and more entities and this is what
is happening with AI it is designed
to be very good at forming intimate
relationships with humans
and uh um in many ways it's already
doing it almost better than human beings
in some situations you know when two
people talk with one another one of the
things that kind of uh um makes the
conversation more difficult is our own
emotions
you're saying something and I'm not
really listening to you because there is
something I want to say and I'm just
waiting until you finish I I can put in
a word or I'm so obsessed with my anger
or irritation or whatever that I don't
pay attention to what you're feeling
this is one of the biggest obstacles in
human relationships and computers don't
have this problem because they don't
have any emotions of their own so you
know when a computer is talking to you
it can be the most it can focus a
hundred percent of its attention is on
your what you're saying and what you're
feeling because it has no feelings of
its own and paradoxically this means
that computers can
fool people
into feeling that oh there is a
conscious entity on the other side an
empathic entity on the other side
because the one thing everybody wants
almost more than anything in the world
is for somebody to listen to me somebody
to focus all their attention on me like
I want it for my spouse for my husband
from my mother for my friends for my
politicians listen to me listen to what
I feel and they often don't and now you
have this entity which a hundred percent
of its attention is just on what what I
feel and this is a huge huge Temptation
and I think also a huge huge danger well
the interesting Catch-22 there is you
said somebody to listen to us yes we
want somebody to listen to us but for us
to respect that somebody
they sometimes have to also not listen
it's like
um they kind of have to be an
sometimes they have to have moods
sometimes they have to have like
self-importance and confidence and and
we should have a little bit of fear that
they can walk away at any moment there
should be a little bit of that tension
so it's like absolutely but even that I
mean the thing is if social scientists
and psychologists establish that I don't
know 17 inattention is good for a
conversation because then you feel
challenged or you need to grab this
person's attention you can program the
AI to have 17 exactly 17 in attention
not one percentage more or less or it
can by its trial and error discover what
is the the ideal percentage again you
you can create over the last 10 years we
have creating machines for grabbing
people's attention
this is what has been happening on
social media
now we are designing machines for
grabbing human intimacy
which in many ways is much much more
dangerous and scary already the machines
for grabbing attention we've seen how
much social and political damage they
could do by in in when you buy kind of
distorting the public conversation
machines that are superhuman in their
abilities to create Intimate
Relationships this is like psychological
and social weapons of mass destruction
if we don't
regulate it if we don't train ourselves
to deal with it it could destroy the
foundations of human society well one of
the possible trajectories is
those same algorithms would become
personalized and instead of manipulating
us at scale there would be assistance
that guide us to help us grow to help us
understand the world better I mean just
even interactions with um
with large language models now if you
ask them questions
it doesn't have that stressful drama the
tension that you have from other sources
of information it has a pretty balanced
perspective that it provides so it just
feels like that's uh the potential is
there to have a really nice
friend who's like an encyclopedia that
just tells you all the different
perspectives even on controversial
issues the most controversial issues to
say these are the different theories
these are
um the not widely accepted conspiracy
theories but that here's the kind of
backing for those conspiracies it just
lays it all out and with a calm language
without the TR without the words that
kind of
um presume there's some kind of
manipulation going on under Underneath
It All it's it's quite refreshing of
course those are the early days and you
know people can step in and start to
censor to manipulate those algorithms to
start to input some of the human biases
in there as opposed to the what's
currently happening is kind of
the internet is input
uh compress it and have a nice little
output that uh gives an overview of the
different issues so I mean there's a lot
of promise there also right absolutely I
mean if there was no problems promise
there was no problem you know if this
technology could not accomplish anything
good nobody would develop it now
obviously it has tremendous positive
potential in things like what you just
described in you know better medicine
better Healthcare better education so
many promises and but this is also why
it's so dangerous because uh the the the
drive to develop it faster and faster is
there and it has some dangerous
potential also and we shouldn't ignore
it again I'm not advocating Banning it
uh just to be you know careful about how
we not not so much develop it but most
importantly how we deploy it into the
public sphere this is the key question
and you know you look back at history
and one of the things we we know from
history humans are not good with new
technologies I hear many people now say
you know AI it's uh we've been here
before we had the radio we had the
printing press we had the Industrial
Revolution every time there is a big new
technology people are afraid and it will
take jobs and build up the Bad actors
and in the end it's okay
and as a historian my tendency is yes in
the end it's okay but in the end there
is a learning curve there is a kind of a
lot of failed experiments on the way to
to learning how to use the new
technology and these failed experiments
could cause the lives of hundreds of
millions of people if you think about
the last really big revolution the
Industrial Revolution yes in the end we
learned how to use the powers of
Industry electricity radio trains
whatever to build better human societies
on the way
we had all these experiments like
European imperialism which was driven by
the Industrial Revolution it was a
question how do you build an industrial
society oh you build an Empire and you
take you you control all the resources
the raw materials the markets and then
you had communism another big experiment
on how to build an industrial society
and you had Fascism and Nazism which
were essentially an experiment in how to
build an industrial society including
even how do you exterminate minorities
using the powers of of industry and we
had all these failed experiments on the
way and if we now have the same type of
failed experiments with the Technologies
of the 21st century with AI with
bioengineering it could cost the lives
of again hundreds of millions of people
and maybe destroy the species
so um as a historian when people talk
about the examples from history from
from new technologies I'm not so
optimistic we need to to to think about
the failed experiment which accompanied
every major new technology so this
intelligence thing like you were saying
is a double-edged sword
is that every new thing it helps us
create it can uh both save us and
destroy us and it's unclear each time
which will happen and that's maybe why
we don't see any aliens
um yeah I mean I think each time he does
both things each time he does both good
things and bad things and the more
powerful the technology the greater both
the positive and the negative outcomes
now we are here
because we are the descendants of the
survivors of the surviving cultures the
surviving uh civilizations so when we
look back we say in the end everything
was okay hey we are here
but the people for whom it wasn't okay
they are just not here
and and okay has a lot of possible
variations to it because there's a lot
of suffering along the way even for the
people that survived so the the quality
of life and all of this but let's
actually go back there uh to our with
deep gratitude to our ancestors how did
it all start how did Homo sapiens
uh I'll compete the others the other
human-like species the Neanderthals and
the other
um homo species
you know in the on the individual level
as far as we can tell we were not
Superior to them neanderthals actually
had bigger brains than us
and not just other human species other
animals too if you compare me personally
to an elephant to a chimpanzee to a pig
I'm not so I I can do some things better
many other things worse if you put me
alone on some island with a chimpanzee
an elephant and a pig I wouldn't bet on
me being the the the the best Survivor
uh the the one that comes is successful
if I may interrupt for a second I just I
was just talking extensively with Elon
Musk about the difference between humans
and chimps
relevant to Optimus the robot and uh The
Chimps
are not able to do this kind of pinching
okay with their fingers they can only do
this kind of pinching and this kind of
pinching is very useful for fine
manipulation about precise manipulation
of objects so don't be so hard on
yourself you have uh I said that I can
do some things better than a chimp but
you know if Elon musk's goes on a boxing
match with a chimpanzee
you know this won't help you this won't
help you against the chimpanzee and
similar if you want to climb a tree if
you want to do so many things my bets
will be on the chimp not on either fair
enough so I mean you have Adventures on
both sides
um and what really made us successful
what made us the rulers of the planet
and not the chimps and not the
Neanderthals is not any individual
ability but our Collective ability our
ability to cooperate flexibly in very
large numbers chimpanzees knows know how
to cooperate say 50 chimpanzees 100
chimpanzees as far as we can tell from
archaeological evidence this was also
the case with Neanderthals
Homo sapiens about 70 000 years ago
gained an amazing ability to be to
cooperate basically in unlimited numbers
you start seeing the formation of large
networks political commercial religious
um items being traded over thousands of
kilometers ideas being spread artistic
fashions
and and this is our secret of success
chimpanzees neanderthals can cooperate
say a hundred we you know now the global
trade network has 8 billion people like
what we eat what we wear it comes from
the other side of the world countries
like China like India they have 1.4
billion people even Israel which is a
relatively small country say 99 million
citizens that's more than the entire
population of the planet ten thousand
years ago of humans
so we can build these huge networks of
cooperation and everything we've
accomplished as a species from you know
building the pyramids to flank to the
moon it's based on that and then you ask
okay so what makes it possible for
millions of people who don't know each
other to cooperate in a way that neander
tells our chimpanzees couldn't and at
least my answer is stories is fiction
it's the imagination if you examine any
large-scale human cooperation you always
find fiction as as its basis
it's a fictional story that holds lots
of strangers together
it's most obvious in cases like religion
you know you can't convince a group of
chimpanzees to come together to fight a
war or build a cathedral by promising to
them if you do that after you die you go
to chimpanzee heaven and you get lots of
bananas and coconuts no chimpanzee will
ever believe that humans believe these
stories which is why we have these huge
religious networks but it's the same
thing with modern politics it's the same
thing with economics people think oh
economics this is rational it has
nothing to do with fictional stories no
money is the most successful Story Ever
Told much more successful than any
religious mythology not everybody
believes in God or in the same God every
but almost everybody believes in money
even though it's just a figment of our
imagination
you know you take these green pieces of
paper dollars they have no value you
can't eat them you can't drink them and
today most dollars are not even pieces
of paper they are just electronic
information passing between computers
we value them
just for one reason that you have the
best storytellers in the world
the bankers the finance ministers all
these people they are the best
storytellers ever
and they tell us a story that this green
little piece of paper or this bit of
information it is worth a banana and as
long as everybody believes it it works
so at which point does a fiction when
it's sufficiently useful and effective
and improving the global quality of life
does it become
like accept the reality like there's a
threshold which is just you know people
believe it it's like with money you know
if you start a new cryptocurrency if if
you're the only one that believes the
story I mean again you you
cryptocurrencies you have the math of
course but ultimately it's storytelling
you're selling people a story if nobody
believes your story
you don't have anything but if lots of
people believe the Bitcoin story then
Bitcoin can be worth thousands and tens
of thousands of dollars again why I mean
you can't eat it you can't drink it it's
nothing it's the story around the the
math which is the real magic
is it possible that the story is the
primary living organism not the
Storyteller
so
that somehow humans uh Homo sapiens
evolved to become these like hosts for a
more intelligent living organism which
is the idea and the ideas are the ones
that are doing the competing so this is
one of the
sort of big perspectives behind your
work that's really revolutionary how
you've seen history but do you ever kind
of uh take out the perspective of the
ideas as the organisms versus the humans
it's it's an interesting idea there are
two opposite things to say about it on
the one hand yes absolutely if you look
long term in history it's all the people
die it's the stories that compete and
survive and spread and stories often
spread by making people willing to
sacrifice sometimes their lives for the
story
um you know we know in Israel this is
one of the most important story
factories in human history and this is a
place where people still kill each other
every day over stories I don't know if
you've been to Jerusalem right so people
say ah Jerusalem Jerusalem Jerusalem you
go there I've lived in Jerusalem in much
of my life you go there it's an ordinary
place you know it's a town you have
buildings you have Stones you have trees
you have dogs and cats and pedestrians
it's a regular place
but then you have the stories about the
place oh this is the place where God
revealed himself this is the place where
Jesus was this is the place was Muhammad
was and it's the stories that people
fight over nobody is fighting over the
stones
people are fighting about the stories
about the stones
and the stories if if a story can get
millions of people to fight for it
um it not only survives it spreads it
can take over the world the other side
of the coin
is that the stories are uh not really
alive because they don't feel anything
this goes back to the question of
Consciousness which I think is the most
important thing that
the Ultimate Reality
is consciousness is the ability to feel
things if you want to know whether the
hero of some story is real or not you
need to ask can it suffer
um stories don't feel anything
countries which are also stories Nations
don't suffer if a nation loses a war it
doesn't suffer the soldiers suffer the
civilians suffer animals can suffer you
have an army with horses and whatever
and the horses get wounded the horses
suffer the nation can't suffer it's just
in a it's just an imagination it's just
a fictional story in our mind
he doesn't feel anything similarly when
a bank goes bankrupt or a company goes
bankrupt or when a
currency loses its value like Bitcoin is
worth now zero crashed or the dollar is
worth zero it crashed the dollar doesn't
feel anything
it's the people holding the dollars who
might be now very miserable
so we have this
complex situation when history is
largely driven by stories
but stories are not the Ultimate Reality
the Ultimate Reality is is feeling
feelings of humans of animals and the
tragedy of History
is it very very often we get it we get
the order wrong stories are not bad
stories are tools
they are good when we use them in order
to alleviate suffering
but very often we forget it
we instead of using the stories for our
purposes we allow the stories to use us
for their purposes and then you start in
tile Wars because of a story you inflict
Millions uh suffering on millions of
people just for the sake of a story and
that's the tragedy of human history so
the fundamental property of life
of a living organism is the capacity to
feel and the the ultimate feeling is
suffering you know to
the question
yeah but when you suffer you know yes
and also in in ethical terms it's more
important to be aware of sufferings than
of any other emotion if you're doing
something which is causing all kinds of
emo all kinds of emotions to all kinds
of people first of all you need to
notice if you're causing a lot of
suffering to someone
if some people are like it and some
people are bothered by it and some
people are a bit angry in you and some
people are suffering because of what you
do you first of all have to know oh
now sometimes you still have to do it
you know the world is a complicated
place I don't know you have an epidemic
uh governments decide to have all that
social isolation regulations or whatever
so in certain cases yes you need to do
it even though it can cause tremendous
suffering but you need to be very aware
of the cost and to be very very you have
to ask yourself again and again and
again is it worth it is it still worth
it
and uh the interesting questionnaire
implied in your statements is that
suffering is a pretty good component of
a touring test for Consciousness this is
the most important thing to ask about AI
can can suffer
mine can suffer then it is an ethical
subject and it needs protection it needs
rights just like humans and animals well
quite a long time ago already so I work
with a lot of robots legged robots but
I've even had inspired by a YouTube
video I had a bunch of roombas and I
made them scream when I touched them or
kick them or when they run into a wall
and
the uh the illusion of suffering from
for me silly human anthropomorphizes
things is as powerful as suffering
itself I mean you you immediately
think the thing is suffering and I think
uh some of it is just a technical
problem but it's the easy easily
solvable one how to create an AI system
that just says please don't hurt me
please don't shut me off I miss you
uh where have you been be jealous also
what what
where have you been gone for so long
your calendar doesn't have anything on
it so this kind of this this create
through words
the perception of uh of suffering of
jealousy of Anger of all those things
and it just seems like that's not so
difficult to do that's part of the
danger that um
it basically hacks our operating system
and it uses some of our best qualities
against us it's very very good that
humans are attuned to suffering and that
we don't want to cause suffering that we
have compassion that's one of the most
wonderful thing about humans and if we
now create AIS which use this to
manipulate us this is a terrible thing
you've kind of I think mentioned this uh
do you think it should be illegal
to to do these kinds of things with AI
to create the perception of
consciousness of saying please don't
leave me or sort of basically
um simulate some of the human-like
qualities yes I think again we have to
be very careful about it and uh and if
it if it emerges
spontaneously we need to be careful and
we can't rule out the possibility that
AI will develop Consciousness we don't
know enough about Consciousness to be
sure so if it develops spontaneously we
need to be uh uh to to
um be very careful about how we
understand it but if people
intentionally design an AI that they
know they assume it has no consciousness
but in order to manipulate people
they use again this human strength this
human uh the the noble part of our
nature against us this should be should
be forbidden and similarly a more
General level that it should be
forbidden for an AI to pretend to be a
human being
that it's okay you know there's so many
things we can use AIS as teachers as
doctors and so forth and it's good as
long as we know that we are interacting
with an AI we should the same way we ban
fake money we should ban fake humans
it's not just Banning deep fakes of
specific individuals
it's also Banning deep fake of generic
humans
you know which is already happening to
some extent on social media like if you
have lots of bots retweeting something
then you have the impression oh lots of
people are interested in that that's
important
and this is basically the Bots
pretending to be humans because if you
see a twit which says 500 people
retwitted it or you you see a a tweet
and it says 500 Bots which would delete
I don't care what the parts we created
but if it's humans okay that's that's
interesting so we need to be very
careful that Bots can't do that they are
doing it at present and it should be
banned now some people say yes but we
know of expression no Bots don't have
freedom of expression
there is no cost in terms of freedom of
expression when you ban Bots
so again in some situations yes AIS
should interact with us but it should be
very clear this is an AI talking to you
oh this is an AI retweeting this story
it is not a human being making a
conscious decision to push back on this
line of fake humans because I think it
might be a spectrum first of all you
might have ai systems that are offended
uh hurt when you say that they're fake
humans
um in fact they might start identifying
as humans and and you just talked about
the power of us humans with our
collective intelligence to take fake
stories and make them quite real
and so if the feelings you have for the
fake human is real
uh you know love is a kind of fake thing
that we all kind of
put a word to a set of feelings what if
you have that feeling for an AI system
it starts to change
I mean maybe uh
the kind of things AI systems are
allowed to do for good they're allowed
to
uh create
communicate suffering communicate it the
good stuff the longing the the hope the
connection the intimacy all of that
um and in that way get integrated in our
society and then you start to ask a
question on
are we allowed to really unplug them are
we allowed to really censor them remove
them remove their voice I'm not saying
social media they shouldn't have a voice
they shouldn't talk with that I'm just
saying when they talk with us it should
be clear that they are AI
that's it don't you can have your voice
as an AI again I mean I I have some
medical problem I want to get advice
from an AI doctor that's fine as long as
I know that I'm talking with an AI that
what should be banned is AI pretending
to be a human being this is something
that will erode trust and without trust
Society collapses this is something that
especially will endanger democracies
because democracies are built on
Democracy is a conversation basically
and it's a conversation between people
if you're not flood the public sphere
with millions and potentially billions
of AI agents that can hold conversations
they never sleep they never eat they
don't have emotions of their own they
can get to know you and tailor their
words specifically for you and your life
story they are uh becoming better than
us at creating stories and uh ideas and
so forth if you flood the Public's fair
with that this will ruin the
conversation between people it will ruin
the trust between people that's you will
no longer be able to have a democracy in
this situation you can have other types
of regimes but no democracy if we could
talk about the big philosophical notion
of truth then
um
you've already talked about these the
capacity of humans one of the things
that made us special is um
stories
so
is there such thing as truth
absolutely
what is true when somebody's suffering
that's true I mean this is why one of
the things when you talk about suffering
is a kind of Ultimate Reality when
somebody suffers that is truth now
somebody can suffer because of a
fictional story like somebody tells
people that God said you must go on this
Crusade and kill these Heretics and this
is a completely fictional story and
people believe it and they start a war
and they destroy cities and kill people
the people that suffer because of that
and even the Crusaders themselves that
also suffer the consequences of what
they do the suffering is true even
though it is caused by a fictional story
similarly when people agree
on certain rules
the rules could come out of our
imagination
now we can be truthful about it and say
these rules didn't come from Heaven they
came from our imagination you know we
look at sports so we have rules for the
game of football soccer
they were invented by people nobody at
least very few people claim that the
rules of football came down from heaven
yes we invented them and this is
truthful they are fictional rules
invented by humans and this is true they
were invented by humans and when you are
honest about it it enables you to change
the rules which is being done in
football every now and then it's the
same with the fundamental rules of a
country you can pretend that the rules
came down from heaven dictated by God or
whatever and then you can't change them
or you can be like you know the American
Constitution which starts with with the
people the American Constitution lays
down certain rules for a society but the
amazing thing about it it does not
pretend to come from an external Source
The Ten Commandments start with I am
your lord God
and because it starts with that you
can't change them
you know uh the tenth commandment for
instance supports slavery the tenth
commandment in the Ten Commandment it
says that you should not covet your
neighbor's house or your neighbor's wife
or your neighbors slaves
it's okay to hold slaves according to
the Ten Commandment it's just bad to to
covet the slaves of your neighbor now
there is no 11th commandment which says
if you don't like some of the previous
ten commandments this is how you go
about amending them which is why we
still have them unchanged now in the U.S
Constitution you have all these uh
rights and rules including originally
the ability to hold slaves but the
genius of the founding fathers of the
United States they had the humility
to understand maybe we we don't
understand everything maybe we made some
mistakes so we tell you that these rules
did not come from Heaven they came from
us humans we may have made a mistake so
here is a mechanism for how future
Generations can amend the Constitution
which was used later on to for instance
amend the Constitution to ban slavery
so now you're describing some
interesting and powerful ideas
throughout human history can you just
speak to the mechanism of how humans
believe
start to believe ideas is there
something interesting to say there from
your thinking about it
hot like how idea is born and how it
takes hold and how it spreads and how it
competes with other ideas first of all
ideas are an independent force in
history
marxists tend to deny that marxists
think that all history is just a play of
of material interests
and ideas stories they are just a smoke
screen to hide the underlying interests
my thoughts are to some extent the
opposite
we have some biological objective
interests that all humans share like we
need to eat
we need to drink we need to breathe
but most conflicts in history are not
about that
the interests which really Drive most
conflict in history don't come from
biology they come from religions and
ideologies and stories so it's not that
stories are small smoke screen to hide
the real interests the stories create
the interests in the first place the
stories Define who are the competing
groups
Nations religions cultures they are not
biological entities they are not like
species like gorillas and chimpanzees no
Israelis and Palestinians or Germans and
French or Chinese and Americans they
have no essential biological difference
between them the difference is cultural
it comes from stories there are people
that believe in different stories the
stories create the identity the stories
create the interests Israelis and
Palestinians are fighting over Jerusalem
not because of any material interest
there are no oil fields under Jerusalem
and even oil you need it to realize some
cultural fantasy it doesn't really come
from biology
so the stories are independent forces
now why do people believe one story and
not another That's History there is no
material materialistic law people will
always believe this no history is full
of accidents how did Christianity become
the most successful uh religion in the
world we can't explain it
so why why this story about Jesus of
Nazareth and not you know the Roman
Empire in the third Century uh CE uh was
a bit like I don't know California today
like so many sects and subjects and
gurus and Reliance like everybody has
their own thing yeah and you have you
know thousands of different stories
competing why did Christianity come up
on top as a historian I don't have a
kind of clear answer you can read the
sauces and you see how it it happens oh
this happened and then this happened and
then Constantine adopted it and then
this and then this but why
I don't think anybody has an as an
answer to that if you rewind the movie
of history and press play and you rewind
and let's pray press play a hundred
times I think Christianity would take
over the Roman Empire in the world maybe
twice out of a hundred times it was such
an unlikely thing to happen
and it's the same with Islam it's the
same I don't know it's the Communist
takeover of Russia
in 1914 if you told people that in three
years Landing in the Bolsheviks will
gain power in that sourest Empire they
would think you're utterly crazy
you know Lenin had a few thousand
supporters in 1914 in an Empire of close
to 200 million people
it sounded ludicrous
now we know the chain of events
the first world war the February
Revolution and so forth that led to the
Communist takeover but it was such an
unlikely event
and it happened and the Little Steps
along the way the little options you
have along the way because you know
Stalin versus Trotsky you could have the
rubber Frost poem there's always
and history often takes you know there
is a Highway and there is a kind of
sideway and history takes the sideways
many many times and is perhaps tempting
to tell some of that history through
charismatic leaders and maybe it's an
open question
how much power charismatic leaders have
to affect the trajectory of History
you've met quite a lot of charismatic
leaders lately I mean what's your view
on that I find it a compelling notion
I'm a sucker for a great speech and a
vision so I I have a sense that there's
an importance uh for a leader
to catalyze the viral spread of a story
as so like I think we need leaders to be
just great storytellers
um that kind of sharpen up the story to
make sure it infiltrates everybody's
brain effectively but uh it could also
be that
the local interactions between humans is
even more important it's just we don't
have a good way to sort of summarize
that and describe that
we like to talk about you know Steve
Jobs as Central to the development of
the computer maybe Bill Gates you you
you tell it to the stories of
individuals like this because it's just
easier to tell a sexy story that way
maybe it's an interplay because you have
the kind of structural forces
that I know you look you look at the
geography of the planet and you look at
shipping technology in late in the late
15th century in Europe and the
Mediterranean and it's almost inevitable
that pretty quickly somebody would
discover America somebody from the old
world will go to the New World
uh so this was not the kind of this
didn't if it wasn't Columbus then it
would have been a five years later
somebody else but
the key thing about history is that
these small differences make a huge huge
difference
you know if if it wasn't Columbus if it
was five years later somebody from
England then maybe all of Latin America
today would be speaking English and not
spanish if it was somebody from the
Ottoman Empire it's completely different
world history if you have and you know
the Ottoman Empire at that time was also
shaping up to be a major Maritime Empire
if you have America uh uh Rich being
reached by Muslim Navigators before
Christian Navigators from Europe you
have a completely different world
history
it's the same as the computer
given them economic incentives and the
Science and Technology of the time then
the the rise of the personal computer
was probably inevitable sometime in the
late 20th century but the where and when
is crucial the fact that it was
California in the 1970s and not say I
don't know Japan in the 1980s of China
in the 1990s this made a huge huge
difference so you have this interplay
between the structural forces which are
beyond the control of any single
charismatic leader but then the the
small changes they can have a big effect
and I think for instance about the war
in Ukraine there was a moment now it's
now it's a struggle between nations
but there was a moment when the decision
was taken in the mind of a single
individual of Vladimir Putin and he
could have decided otherwise and the the
the world would look completely
different
and another leader Volare zalanski could
have decided to leave Kiev in the early
days there's a lot of decisions to kind
of Ripple yeah I see you right in Homer
there's about
Hitler
and uh
in part that he was not a very
impressive person
I say that
the quote is let me read it okay uh he
wasn't a senior officer in four years of
war he rose no higher than the rank of
Corporal he had no formal education
perhaps you mean his resume yeah his
resume was not impressive he had no
formal education no professional skills
no political background he wasn't a
successful businessman or a union
activist he didn't have friends or
relatives in high places nor any money
to speak of uh so how did uh he amass so
much power
what ideology what circumstances enabled
the rise of the Third Reich
the why
I can tell you the how I don't think it
was inevitable I think that a few if a
few things were different there would
have been no no Third Reich that would
have been no Nazism no no Holocaust
again this is the tragedy if it would
have been inevitable then you know what
can you do this is the the laws of of
history or the laws of physics but the
tragedy is no it was Decisions by humans
that led to that direction
and you know even from the Viewpoint of
of the Germans
um we know for for a fact it was an
unnecessary path to take because you
know in the 1920s and 30s the Nazis said
that
um this unless Germany take this road it
will never be prosperous it will never
be successful all the other countries
will keep stepping on it this was their
their their uh claim and we know for a
fact this is this is false why because
they took that road
they lost the Second World War
and after they lost then they became one
of the most prosperous countries in the
world because their enemies that
defeated them evidently supported them
and allowed them to become such a
prosperous successful Nation so you know
if you can lose the war and still be so
successful obviously you could just have
script the war you didn't need it I mean
you really had to have the war in order
to have a prosperous Germany in the
United States absolutely not and it's
the same with Japan it's the same as
Italy
so um uh it was not inevitable it was
not the forces of history that
necessitated it follows Germany to take
uh this path
I think part of it is part of the appeal
of of again history was a very very
skillful storyteller
sold people a story the fact that he was
nobody
made it even more effective because
people at that time they after the
defeat of the of the first world war
after the repeated economic crisis of
the 1920s in Germany people felt
betrayed by all the uh established
Elites by all the established
institutions all all these professors
and politicians and industrialists and
Military all the big people they led us
to a disastrous War they led us to
humiliation so we don't want any of them
and then you have this nobody
a Corporal with no money with no
education with no titles with nothing
and it tells people I'm one of you
and this made him this was one reason
why he was so popular
and then the story he told
when you look at stories at the
competition between different stories
and between stories fiction and the
truth
the truth has two big problems
the truth tends to be complicated and
the truth tends to be painful
the real story of let's talk about
Nations the real story of every nation
is complicated
and it contains some painful episodes we
are not always good we sometimes do bad
things now if you go to people and you
tell them a complicated and painful
story many of them don't want to listen
the advantage of fiction is that it can
be made as simple
and as painless or attractive as you
want it to be because it's fiction
and then what you see is that
politicians like Hitler they create a
very simple story we are the heroes we
always do good things everybody is
against us everybody is trying to to to
trample us and
um this is very attractive one of the
things people don't understand about
Nazism and fascism we teach in schools
about Fascism and Nazism as this
ultimate Evil the ultimate monster in
human history and
some level this is this is wrong
because it make people
um it actually exposes us why because
people hear of fascism is this monster
and then when you hear the actual
fascist story what fascists tell you
is always very beautiful and attractive
fascists are people who come and tell
you you are wonderful
you belong to the most wonderful group
of people in the world you're beautiful
you are ethical everything you do is
good you have never done anything wrong
that all these evil monsters out there
that are out to get you and they are
causing all the problems in the world
and when people hear that you know it's
like looking in the mirror
and seeing something very beautiful hey
I'm beautiful I've we've never done
anything wrong we are victims everybody
is again and and when you look and you
heard in school that fascism that
fascists are monsters and you look in
the mirror you see something very
beautiful and you say I can't be a
fascist because fascists are monsters
and this is so beautiful so it can't be
but
when you look in the fascist mirror you
all you never see a monster you see the
most beautiful thing in the world
and that's the danger this is the
problem you know with Hollywood's you
know I look at Voldemort in Harry Potter
who would like to follow this this creep
yeah and you look at Darth Vader this is
not somebody you would like to follow
Christianity got things much better when
he described the devil as being very
beautiful and attractive
that's the danger
that you see something is very beautiful
you don't understand the monster
underneath
and you write precisely about this and
by the way it's just a smaller side
it um it always saddens me when people
say how obvious it is to them that
communism is a flawed ideology
when you ask them
try to put your mind try to put yourself
in the beginning of the 20th century and
see what you would do a lot of people
will say it's obvious that it's a flawed
ideology so um I mean as opposed to some
of the worst ideologies in human history
you could say the same and in that
mirror when you look it looks beautiful
communism is the same also you look in
the Communist mirror you're the most
ethical wonderful place a person ever
it's very difficult to see Stalin
underneath it so yeah in holidays you
also write during the 19th and 20th
centuries as humanism gained increasing
social credibility and political power
it sprouted two very different offshoots
socialist humanism which encompassed a
plethora of socialist and communist
movements and evolutionary humanism
whose most famous Advocates were the
Nazis so if you can just Linger on that
what's the ideological connection
between Nazism and communism as embodied
by humanism
and humanism basically is you know the
focus is on humans that they are the
most important thing in the world they
move history
but then there is a big question what is
what are humans what is humanity
now liberals
they place at the center of the story
individual humans and they don't see
h