Kind: captions
Language: en
we should never and I never set aside
and say oh they're just threatening to
destroy us they won't do it if somebody
threatens to eliminate you as Iran is
doing today and as Hitler did then and
people discounted it well if somebody
threatens to annihilate I'll take them
seriously and act to prevent it early on
don't let them have the means to do so
because that may be too late
the following is a conversation with
Benjamin Netanyahu prime minister of
Israel currently serving his sixth term
in office he's one of the most
influential powerful and controversial
men in the world leading a right-wing
coalition government at the center of
one of the most intense and long-lasting
conflicts in crises in human history as
we spoke and as I speak now large-scale
protests are breaking out all over
Israel over this government's proposed
judicial reform that seeks to weaken the
Supreme Court in a bold accumulation of
power
given the current intense political
battles in Israel our previous intention
to speak for three hours was adjusted to
one hour for the time being but we
agreed to speak again for much longer in
the future
I will also interview people who harshly
disagree with the words spoken in this
conversation I will speak with other
world leaders with religious leaders
with historians and activists and with
people who have lived and have suffered
through the pain of War destruction and
loss that stoke the fires of anger and
hate in their heart
for this I will travel anywhere no
matter how dangerous if there's any
chance it may help add to understanding
and love in the world
I believe in the power of conversation
to do just this to remind us of our
common Humanity
I know I'm under qualified and
underskilled for these conversations so
I will often fall short and I will
certainly get attacked derided and
slandered but I will always turn the
other cheek and use these attacks to
learn to improve and no matter what
never give in to cynicism this life this
world of ours is too beautiful not to
keep trying trying to do some good in
whatever way each of us know how
I love you all
this is the Lex Friedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Benjamin Netanyahu
you're loved by many people here in
Israel and in the world but you're also
hated by many in fact I think you may be
one of the the most hated men in the
world so if there's a young man or a
young woman listening to this right now
who have such hate in their heart
what can you say to them to
one day turn that hate into love I
disagree with the premise of your
question uh I think I have have enjoyed
a very broad support around the world
there are certain uh Corners in which we
have uh we have this animosity that you
describe and it sort of permeates in
some of the uh the newspapers and the
News organs and so on in the in the
United States but it certainly doesn't
reflect the the broad support that I
have I just gave
an interview on an Iranian Channel
16 million viewers I gave another one I
just did a a little video a few years
ago 25 million viewers from Iran
certainly no hate there I have to tell
not from the regime okay and when I go
around the world and I've been around
the world uh people
want to hear what we have to say what I
have to say is a leader of Israel whom
they respect increasingly as a rising
power in the world so I uh I disagree
with that and the most important thing
that goes against what you said is the
respect that we receive from the Arab
world and the fact that we've made four
historic peace agreements with Arab
countries and they made it with me they
didn't make it with anyone else and I
respect them and they respect me and
probably more to come so I think the
premise is wrong that's all well
there's a lot of love yes there are a
lot of leaders are collaborating our
respect I said not not though okay all
right well it's a spectrum
but there is people who
um don't have good things to say about
Israel who do have hate in their heart
and for Israel and what can you say to
those people
well I think they don't know very much I
think they're Guided by a lot of uh
ignorance they don't know about Israel
they don't know that Israel is a stellar
democracy that it happens to be one of
the most advanced societies on the
planet that what Israel develops helps
uh Humanity in every field in medicine
and Agriculture and uh in the
environment and
telecoms and
talk about AI in a minute but changing
the world for the better and spreading
this among uh six continents we've sent
rescue teams more than any other country
in the world and we're one tenth of one
percent of the world's population but
when there's a earthquake or a
Devastation in Haiti or in the
Philippines Israel is there when there's
an earthquake a devastating earthquake
in Turkey Turkey Israel was there when
there's something in Nepal Israel is
there and it's a second country it's the
second country after in one case India
or after another case the United States
Israel is there tiny Israel is a
benefactor to all of uh Humanity so
you're a student of History if I can
just Linger on that philosophical notion
of hate
uh that part of human nature if you look
at
uh World War II what do you learn from
human nature from the rise of the Third
Reich and the rise of somebody like uh
Hitler and the hate that permeates that
well what I've learned is that you have
to nip bad things in the bud you have to
uh there's a lightning term that says
Lobster pinky stop bad things when
they're small uh and the deliberate
hatred the the uh
incitement of hatred against uh one
Community uh it's demonization
delegitimization that goes with it uh is
a very dangerous thing and that happened
in the case of the Jews what started
with the Jews soon spread to all of
humanity so what we've learned is that's
what we should we should never and I
never set aside and say oh they're just
threatening to destroy us they won't do
it if somebody threatens to eliminate
you as Iran is doing today and as Hitler
did then and people discounted it well
if somebody threatens to an eyelid well
take them seriously and act to prevent
it early on don't let them have the
means to do so because that may be too
late
so in those threats
underlying that hatred how much of it is
anti-zionism and how much of it is
anti-Semitism I don't distinguish
between the two you can't say well I'm
okay with Jews but I just don't think
there should be a Jewish State it's like
saying I'm not anti-American I just
don't think there should be an America
that's basically what who what people
are saying vis-a-vis
anti-anti-semitism and anti-zionism uh
when you say anti-zionism you're saying
the Jewish people don't have a right to
have a state of their own uh and that uh
that is a denial of uh of a basic uh uh
a basic principle that I think
completely
unmasks what is involved here today
anti-Semitism is anti-zionism those who
oppose the Jewish people oppose the
Jewish state
if we jump from human history to the
current particular moment there's
protests in Israel now about the
proposed judicial reform that gives
power to your government to override the
Supreme Court so the critics say that
this gives too much power to you
virtually making you a dictator yeah
well that's ridiculous the mere fact
that you have so many demonstrations in
protests some some dictatorship huh
a lot of democracy here more more
ambunctious and more robust than just
anywhere on the planet can you still man
the case that this gives this may give
too much power to the the coalition
government to the Prime Minister not
just to you but to those who follow no I
think that's complete hogwash because I
I think there's uh there's a very few
people who are demonstrating against
this quite a few well quite many don't
have an idea what is being discussed
they're basically being sloganized you
can sloganize you know something about
uh not mass media right now but the
social network you can basically feed
deliberately with big data and big money
you can just feed uh slogans and get
into people's minds I'm sure you don't
think I exaggerated because you can tell
me more about that and you can create
Mass mobilization based on these absurd
slogans so here here's where we I come
from and what we're doing what we're
trying to do and what we've changed and
what we're trying to do I'm a 19th
century Democrat in my uh small deal yes
in My Views that is I view I asked the
question what is democracy okay so
democracy is uh is the will of the
majority and the protection of the
rights of they call it the rights of the
minority but I say the rights of of the
individual okay so how do you balance
the two okay how do you get the how do
you avoid mapocracy okay and how do you
avoid dictatorship the opposite side the
way you avoid it is something that was
built essentially by British
philosophers and French philosophers but
uh was encapsulated by the founding
fathers of the United States you create
a balance between the three branches of
government okay the legislative
executive and the Judiciary and this
balance is what assures the balance
between majority rights and individual
rights and you have to balance all of
them okay that balance was maintained in
Israel in its first 50 years and was
gradually over overtaken and basically
broken by the most activist judicial
court on the planet that's what happened
here and gradually over the last uh two
three decades the the court aggregated
for itself the powers of the parliament
and the executive so we're trying to
bring it back into line bring it back
into line into what is common in all
parliamentary democracies and in the
United States doesn't mean taking the
pendulum from one side and bringing it
to the other side we want checks and
balances not
unrivaled power just as we said we want
an independent Judiciary but not an
all-powerful Judiciary that balance does
not mean bringing it back into line
doesn't mean that you can have the uh
the Parliament archness that override
any decision that the Supreme Court does
so I pretty much early on said after the
judicial reform was introduced get rid
of the idea of a sweeping override
Clause that would have with 61 votes
that's majority of one you can just
nullify any Supreme Court decision so
let's move it back into the center so
that's gone and most of the criticism on
the judicial reform was based on a on a
an unlimited override clause which I've
said is simply not going to happen
people are discussing something that
already for six months does not exist
the second point that we received
criticism on was the uh the uh structure
of how do you choose Supreme Court
judges okay how do you support how do
you choose them uh and uh the critics of
uh the reform are saying that the idea
that elected officials should choose
Supreme Court judges is the end of
democracy if that's the case the United
States is not a democracy neither is
France and other are just I don't know
just about every uh every democracy on
on the planet so there is a view here
that uh you can't have the sordid hands
of elected officials uh involved in the
choosing of judges and in the Israeli
system the judicial activism went so far
that effectively the sitting judges have
an effective veto and and
choosing judges which means that this is
a self-selecting court that just
perpetrates itself and we want to
correct that again want to correct it in
a balanced way and that's basically what
we're trying to do so I think there's a
lot of misinformation about that we're
trying to bring Israeli democracy to
where it was in its first 50 years and
it was a stellar democracy it still is
Israel is a democracy it will remain a
democracy uh a vibrant democracy and
believe me the fact that people are
arguing and demonstrating uh in the
streets and protesting is just is the
best proof of that and that's how it
will remain
we spoke about tech companies offline
there's a lot of tech companies nervous
about this judicial reform can you speak
to why a large and small companies have
a future in Israel
because Israel is a free market economy
I had something to do with that I
introduced dozens and dozens of free
market reforms that made Israel move
from seventeen thousand dollars per
capita income
to uh within a very short time to uh
fifty four thousand dollars that's
nominal GDP per capita according to the
IMF and we've overtaken in that to Japan
France Britain Germany how did that
happen because we unleashed the
the genius that we have in the
initiative and the entrepreneurship that
is latent in our population and to do
that we had to create free markets so we
created that so Israel has one of the
most vibrant free market economies in
the world and the second thing we have
is a permanent investment in conceptual
products because we have a permanent
investment in um uh in the military in
our security services creating uh
basically knowledge workers who then
become knowledge entrepreneurs and so we
create this this structure and that's
not going to go away there's been a
decline in investments in the high-tech
globally I think that's driven by many
factors but the most important one is
the interest rate which which I think
will it'll fluctuate up and down but
Israel will remain a very attractive
country because it produces so many
so many knowledge workers in a
knowledge-based economy and it's
changing so rapidly the world is
changing you're looking for the places
that have Innovation the future belongs
to this to those who innovate Israel is
the uh preeminent Innovation Nation it
has few competitors and I would say all
right where do you have
this close cross-disciplinary uh
fermentation of various skills and areas
I would say it's in Israel and I'll tell
you why we used to be just telecoms
because people went out of the you know
Military Intelligence rnsa but that's
been now broad-based so you find it in
medicine you find it in biology you find
it in uh agritech you find it everywhere
everything is becoming technologized and
in Israel everybody is dealing in
everything
and that's that's a potent uh reservoir
of talent that the the world is not
going to pass up and in fact is coming
to us we just had Nvidia coming here uh
and uh they decided to build a
supercomputer in Israel wonder why we've
had Intel coming here and deciding not
to invest 25 billion dollars just now uh
in a new plant in Israel I wonder why I
don't wonder why they know why because
the talent is here and the freedom is
here then it'll remain so
so you had a conversation about AI with
Sam Altman of open Ai and with Elon Musk
yeah what was the content of that
conversation what's your vision for sort
of this very highest of
Tech uh which is artificial intelligence
well first of all I have a high regard
for the people I talk to okay
okay and I I understand that they
understand things I don't understand and
I don't pretend to understand everything
but I do understand one thing I
understand that the AI
is developing at a geometric rate
and mostly in in political life and in
life in general people don't have an
intuitive grasp of geometric growth you
understand things basically in linear
increments uh and the idea that you're
coming up a ski slope is very foreign to
people so I don't understand it and
they're
naturally also um
sort of taken aback by it because what
do you do okay so I think the the there
are several conclusions from my
conversations with the with them and
from my uh other observations that I've
been talking about for many years I'm
talking about the need to do this well
the first thing is this
there is no possibility of not entering
AI with full force
secondly there is a need for regulation
third it's not clear there will be
Global regulation fourth uh it's not
clear where it ends up I I certainly
cannot say that now you might say does
it come to control us okay that's
question does it come to control us
I don't know the answer to that uh
I think that is uh
as one uh observation that I had from
these conversations
is if it does come to control us that's
probably the only chance of having a
universal regulation because I don't see
anyone anyone deciding to uh you know to
uh
avoid the race and cooperate unless you
have that threat doesn't mean you can't
regulate AI within countries even
without that understanding but it does
mean that there's a limit to regulation
because every country will want to make
sure that it's not uh doesn't give up
competitive Advantage if there is no
Universal regulation
I think that right now just as you know
10 years ago I read um
I read a novel I don't read novels but I
was forced to read one by a Scientific
Advisor I read history I read about
economics I read about technology I just
don't read novels okay and this time uh
follow Churchill you know he said fact
is better than Fiction well this fiction
would become fact and it was a book it
was a novel about
a chinese-american's future cyber war
and I read the book one sitting called
in a team of experts and I said all
right let's uh let's turn Israel into uh
one of the world's five cyber powers and
let's do it very quickly and we did
actually we did we did exactly that
uh I think AI
is bigger than that and related to that
because it'll affect well cyber affects
everything but AI will affect it even
more fundamentally and the joining of
the two could be very powerful so I
think in Israel we have to
we have to do it anyway for security
reasons when we're doing it but I think
what about
what about our databases that are
already very robust on on the medical
records of 98 of our population
why don't we stick a genetic database on
that why don't we do other things that
can bring magical
what seem are seemingly magical cures
and drugs and medical instruments for
that that's one possibility we have it
in as I said in every single field the
conclusion is this we have to move on AI
we are moving on AI just as we moved on
Cyber and I think Israel will be one of
the leading uh one of the leading AI uh
powers in the world the questions I
don't have an answer to Is
where does it go
how much does it eat chew up on on jobs
there's an assumption that I'm not sure
is true
that all previous the two big
uh previous
Revolutions in The Human Condition
namely the Agricultural Revolution and
the Industrial Revolution
definitely produce more jobs than they
um than they consumed okay that is not
obvious to me at all
I mean I could see new jobs creating and
yes I have that you know that comforting
statement
but it's not quite true
because I think on balance they'll
probably consume more jobs many more
jobs than they'll create at least in the
short term
and we don't know about the long term no
I don't know about the long term but I
used to have the Comfort being a free
market guy I always said you know we're
going to produce more jobs than you know
buy I don't know limiting certain
government jobs we're actually putting
out in the market will create more jobs
which obviously happen you know we had
one Telecom company a government company
when I said we're going to you know
we're going to create competition they
said you're going to run us out we're
not going to have more workers yeah they
had 13 000 workers they went down to uh
seven but we created another forty
thousand uh in the other companies so
that was a comforting thought I always
knew that was true okay not only that I
also knew that wealth would spread by
opening up the markets completely
opposite to the uh socialist and
semi-socialist agree that they had here
uh they said you're going to make the
rich richer and the poor poor no and
made everyone richer and actually uh the
people who entered the job market
because of the reforms we did actually
became a lot richer the on the the
lowest the the lower uh ladders of uh
the socioeconomic uh measure but here's
the point I don't know I don't know that
that we will not have
what uh Elon Musk calls the end of
scarcity
so you'll have the end of scarcity
you'll have enormous productivity
you know very few people are producing
enormous added value
you're going to have to tax that to pass
it to the others okay you're gonna have
to do that that's a political question
I'm not sure how we answer that what if
you tax and somebody else doesn't tax
you're going to get everybody to go
there that's an issue an international
issue that we constantly have to deal
with and the second question you have
is
suppose you solve that problem
and you deliver
uh money okay
to those who are not involved in the AI
economy
what do they do
the first question you ask somebody
whom you just met after the polite you
know the polite exchanges is what do you
do right well people Define themselves
by their profession
uh and it's going to be difficult if you
don't have a profession and you know
people will spend more time
self-searching they'll more time and uh
in the Arts more time and Leisure I
understand that if I have to bet
it will annihilate many more jobs than
it will create and it will force a
structural change in our economics in
our economic models and in our politics
uh and I'm not sure where it's going to
go and that's something we have to
respond to at the nation level and just
as a human civilization both the threat
of AI to just
us as a human species and then the
effect on the jobs and like you said
cyber security and what do you think you
think you think it's gonna we're gonna
lose control
no I first of all I do believe maybe
naively that it will create more jobs
than it takes write that down and we'll
check it it's on record and you know we
don't have we don't say we'll check it
after our lifetime no we'll see it in a
few years we'll see in a few years I'm
really concerned about cyber security
and the nature of how that changes with
the power of AI
and in terms of existential threats
I think there will be so much threats
that aren't existential along the way
that that's the thing I'm mostly
concerned about
um versus AI taking complete control and
becoming sort of superseding the human
species uh although that is something
you should consider seriously uh because
of the exponential growth of its
capability it's exactly the exponential
growth which we understand
uh is before us but we don't really it's
very hard to project forward to really
understand that's right exactly right so
you know I'm so I deal with what I can
where I can affect something I tend not
to worry about things I don't control
because at a certain point you know
there's no point I mean you have to
decide what you're spending your time on
so I think in Practical terms I think
we'll make
um we'll make Israel a formidable AI
power we understand the limitation of
scale computing power
and other things but I think within
those limits I think we can uh make here
this miracle that we move we did in many
other things uh you know we do more with
less I don't care if it's water the
production of water or the production of
energy or the production of knowledge of
the production of cyber capabilities
defense and other uh we just do more
with less and I think in AI we're going
to do a lot more uh with uh relatively
small but highly gifted population very
gifted
so taking a small tangent as we talked
about offline uh you have a uh a
background in Taekwondo oh yeah yeah
we'll mention Elon Musk I've trained
with both this is a quick question Who
do you have uh who are you betting on in
a fight well uh I refuse to answer that
uh I will say this such a politician you
are yeah of course uh here I'm a
politician I'm openly telling you that
I'm dodging the question okay but I'll
say this uh you know I I actually I
spent five years in our special forces
uh in in the military and we barely
spent a minute uh on martial arts
actually
learn Taekwondo later when I came to uh
and it wasn't even at MIT at MIT I think
I did Karate but when I came to the U.N
I had a martial arts expert and he
taught me Taekwondo which was kind of
interesting now the question you really
have to ask is why did we learn martial
arts in this special uh Elite unit and
the answer is
there's no point if you signed Deanna
Jones you know there's no point you just
you know pull the trigger that's simple
now I don't expect anyone to pull the
trigger on this combat and I'm I'm sure
you'll you'll make sure that doesn't
happen
yeah I mean martial arts is it's kind of
it's bigger than just combat it's this
kind of Journey of humility and it has
uh it's an art form it truly is an art
but it's fascinating these two figures
in Tech are facing each other and uh I
won't ask a question of who you would
face and how you would do but um well
I'm facing
opponents all the time all the time yeah
that's part of life but you know Part of
Life part of life is not yet I'm not
sure about that are you announcing uh
you know part of life is competition you
know you know the only time competition
ends is
death but you know political life
economic life
cultural life is engaged continuously in
creativity and competition and uh the
the problem I have with that is as I
mentioned earlier just before we began
the podcast is that uh
at a certain point you want to put
barriers to Monopoly
and if you're in a really able
competitor you're going to create a
monopoly that's what Peter till says is
a natural course of things it's what I
learned and uh basically in the Boston
Consulting Group if you're a very able
competitor you'll create scale
advantages that give you the ability to
lock out your competition and as a prime
minister I want to assure that there is
competition in the market so you have to
limit uh limit this competitive power at
a certain point and that becomes
increasingly hard uh in the in the world
where everything is intermissed where do
you define market segments where do you
define uh Monopoly uh how do you do that
that is very that that actually
conceptually I find very challenging
because of all the dozens of political
of economic reforms that I've made
the most difficult part is the
conceptual part once you have you've
ironed it out you say here's what I want
to do here's the right thing to do then
you have a practical problem of
overcoming Union resistance political
resistance press Calamity uh you know
opponents from this or that corner
that's a practical matter but if you
have it conceptually defined you can
move ahead to uh reformed economies or
reform education or reform
Transportation fine in the question of
The Growing Power of large companies
big tech companies to monopolize the
markets because they're better at it
they provide a service they provided
lower cost it rapidly declined costs
where do you stop where do you uh where
do you stop in a monopoly power is a
crucial question because it also becomes
now a political question if you're a
mass enormous amount of economic power
which is information power you know that
also monopolizes the political process
which creates these are real questions
that are not obvious I don't have an
obvious answer because as I said as a
19th century Democrat these are
questions of the 21st century which
people should
should begin to think do you have a
solution to that
the solution of monopoly's growing
arbitrarily unstoppably in power an
economic power and therefore in
political power I mean some of that is
regulation some of that is competition
you know where
to put to draw the line
it's not breaking up at T you know it's
not that simple
well I believe in the power of
competition that there will always be
somebody that challenges the big guys
especially in the space of AI
uh the more open source movements are
taking hold the more the little guy can
become the big guy so you're saying
basically the regulatory the the
regulatory uh instrument is the market
in large part in most part that's the
hope maybe I'm a dreamer that's been in
many ways by policy up to now
okay that the best regulator
uh is the market the best regulator in
economic uh in economic activity is the
market
and the best regulator in political
matters is a political Market that's
called elections that's what that's what
regulates you know you have a lousy
government uh and people make lousy
decisions well you don't need uh you
know the wise men raised above the uh
you know the the masses to decide what
is good and what is bad let the masses
decide let them vote every four years or
whatever and they throw you up by the
way it happened to me there's life after
political death there's actually
political life I was reelected five or
six times and this is my sixth term so
you know that I believe in that I'm not
sure
I'm not sure that in economic matters in
the geometric growth of tech companies
that you'll always have the little guy
the Nimble mammal that will come out and
slay the dinosaurs or overcome the
dinosaurs uh which is essentially what
you said yeah I wouldn't count out the
little guy you wouldn't count out the
loom well I hope you're right
uh well let me ask you about this uh
Market of politics so you have uh served
six terms as prime minister over 15
years in power let me ask you again
human nature do you worry about the
corrupting nature of power on you as a
leader and you as a man not at all uh
because I I think that the again the the
thing that drives me is not uh is
nothing but the mission that I took to
assure the uh the survival and thriving
of the state the Jewish state that is
its economic Prosperity uh but it's
security and its ability to achieve
peace with our neighbors and I'm I'm
committed to it I think there's still
there are many things that have been
done there are a few big things that I
can still do but it doesn't only depend
on my sense of mission it depends on
the market as we say depends really on
the will of the Israeli voters and
Israeli voters have decided to vote for
me again again even though I wield no
power in the Press
no power in in many quarters here uh and
so on nothing I mean I am probably I'm
going to be very soon the longest
serving uh prime minister in the last
half century in the western democracies
but that's not because I I am Mass great
political power in any of the
institutions I remember I had a
conversation with uh
Silvio Berlusconi who recently died and
he said to me about uh I don't know 15
years ago something like that he said so
baby uh how many uh uh how many uh of
the Israel's uh uh television stations
and you have and I said none he said you
have none you have do you have I said
none I have two he said no no but what
you mean you don't have any that you
control I said not only do I have any
none that I control they're all against
me so he says so how do you win
elections and you know with both hands
tied behind your back and I said the
hard way uh that's why you know I have
the largest party but I don't have many
more seats that I would have if I had a
sympathetic uh voice in the media and
Israel is until recently was dominated
completely by one side of the political
spectrum that uh you know often uh
vilified me not not me because they
viewed me as representing basically the
conservative voices in Israel that are
majority in uh so the idea that I'm an
omnipotent authoritarian
dictator is ridiculous I'm uh I would
say I'm a not merely a champion of uh of
uh democracy and democratization I'm uh
I believe ultimately the decision is
with the voters and the voters even
though they've had you know they have
constant constant uh press attacks uh
they have chosen to put me back in so I
don't believe in this thing of amassing
the corrupting power of if you don't
have elections
if you don't have if you control uh the
the means of influencing the voters I'd
understand uh what you're saying but in
my case it's the exact opposite I have
to constantly go in elections constantly
uh uh you know with a disadvantage that
the major media Outlets are very
violently sometimes against me but it's
fine and I keep on winning so I I don't
know what you're talking I would say the
concentration of power lies elsewhere
not here
well you have been involved in several
corruption cases how much corruption is
there in Israel and how do you fight it
in your own party and in Israel
well you should ask a different question
what's happened to these cases these
cases have uh basically are collapsing
and before our eyes the uh the uh you
know there were uh there was recently a
an event in which the judges the three
judges in in my case called in the
prosecution and said you know your
flagship
the bribery charts so-called bribery
charts you know it's gone doesn't exist
before a single a single defense uh uh
witness was called uh and um uh it sort
of tells you that this thing is
evaporating it's quite
astounded even that I have to say was
covered even by the mainstream press in
Israel because it's such an earthquake
so you know a lot of these charges are
not a lot these charges will prove to be
nothing I always said listen I stand
before the legal process I don't claim
that um
exempt from it in any way on the
contrary I think the truth will come out
and it's coming out and we see that not
only that but with other things so I
think it's kind of instructive that you
know no no politician has been more
vilified no none has been put to such a
uh you know what is it about a quarter
of a billion uh
shekels were used to scrutinize me and
scour my bank accounts sending people to
the Philippines into Mexico into Europe
into America and looking at everybody
using spyware the most advanced spyware
on the planet against my associates
blackmailing Witnesses uh uh
telling them new know think about your
family think about your wife you know
you better tell us what you want all
that is coming out of the trial uh so I
would say
that most people now are not asking are
no longer asking including my opponents
it started trickling in as the as the
stuff comes out people are not saying
what did uh Netanyahu do because he
apparently did nothing
what was done to him is something the
people ask what was done to him what was
done to our democracy what was done in
the attempt to put down somebody who
keeps winning elections despite the
handicaps that I described maybe we can
maybe we can nail him by Framing him and
the one thing I can say about the the
this court trial is that
um things are coming out and that's
that's very good just objective things
are coming out changing the picture so I
would say
um the the attempt to Brand me uh as
corrupt is falling on its face but the
thing that isn't being uncovered in the
trial
such as the use the use of spyware
on a politician
a politician's surroundings to try to
shake them down
in investigations
put them in flea written cells for 21
days and divide their 84 year old mother
to investigations without cause bringing
in their Mistresses in the corridor
shaking them down
that's what people are asking that
corruption is what they want corrected
what is the top obstacle to Peaceful
coexistence of Israelis and Palestinians
let's talk about the big question of
Peace in this part of the world
well I I think the reason you have
uh the Persistence of the uh
palestinian-israeli conflict which goes
back about a century is the persistent
Palestinian refusal to recognize a
Jewish State a nation-state for the
Jewish people in any boundary and that's
why they opposed the establishment of
the state of Israel before we had a
state now that's why they've opposed it
after we had a state they opposed it
when we were we didn't have Judea and
Samaria the West Bank in our heads in
Gaza and the oppose it after we have it
doesn't make a difference it's basically
the persistent refusal
to recognize a Jewish state in any
boundaries and I think their tragedy is
that they've been commandeered for a
century by leadership that refused to
compromise with the idea of of Zionism
namely that the Jews deserve a state in
this part of the world the territorial
dispute is something else you have a
territorial dispute if you say okay
you're living on this side we're living
on that side let's decide where the
border is and so on that's not what the
argument is the Palestinian society
which is itself
fragmented but all the factions agree
there shouldn't be a Jewish State anyway
okay they just disagree between Hamas
that says oh well you should have it you
know we should get rid of it with Terror
and the others who say we know we should
also use political means to dissolve it
so that is that is the problem so even
as part of a two-state solution they're
still against the idea well they don't
want a state next to Israel they want to
State instead of Israel and they say if
we get a state we'll use it as a
springboard to destroy the the smaller
Israeli state which is what happened
when Israel unilaterally walked out of
Gaza and effectively established a Hamas
State there they didn't say all good now
we have you know our own territory our
own State Israel is no longer there
let's build peace let's build uh uh you
know uh economic projects let's uh
enfranchise our people no they turned it
into a basically into a terror Bastion
from which they find uh 10 000 Rockets
into Israel when Israel left uh Lebanon
uh you know and because we had terrorist
attacks from there then we had Lebanon
uh taken over by Hezbollah terrorist
organization that seeks to destroy
Israel uh and and therefore every time
we just walked out what we got was not
peace we didn't give uh you know
territory for peace we got territory for
Terror that's what we had and that's
what would happen as long as the the
reigning ideology says we don't want
Israel in any border so the the idea of
uh two states assumes that you'd have on
the other side a state that wants to
live in peace and not one that will be
overtaken by Iran and its proxies in two
seconds and become a base to destroy
Israel and therefore I think that most
Israelis today if you ask them uh
they're yeah they'd say it's not going
to work in that concept so what do you
do what do you do with the Palestinians
okay they're still there and I don't
unlike them I don't want to throw them
out uh they're going to be living here
and we're going to be living here in an
area which is by the way just to
understand
uh the area the entire area of uh
so-called West Bank and in Israel is the
width of the Washington Beltway more or
less just a little more not much more
you can't really divide it up you can't
say well you're going to fly in who
controls the airspace well it takes you
about two and a half minutes to cross it
with a with a regular uh you know seven
to four seven okay with the fighter
plane it takes you a minute and a half
okay so you're not how are you going to
divide the airspace well you're not
going to divide it this wheel is going
to control that airspace and the
electromagnetic space uh and uh and so
on so security has to be uh in the hands
of Israel my view of how you solve this
problem is that is a simple principle
the Palestinians should have all the
powers to govern themselves and none of
the powers to threaten Israel which
basically means that the responsibility
for overall security remains with Israel
and from a practice point of view we've
seen that every time that Israel leaves
a territory and and takes its uh
Security Forces out of an area it
immediately is overtaken by hamaso
Hezbollah or Judas who basically are
committed to the destruction of Israel
and also bring misery to the the
Palestinians or Arab subjects so I think
that that principle is less than perfect
sovereignty
because you're taking a certain amount
of uh Power sovereign powers especially
security away but I think it's the only
practical solution so people say ah but
it's not a perfect State I said okay
call it what you will call it you know
uh I don't know uh limited sovereignty
call it the autonomy plus call it
whatever you want to call it but that's
the reality and right now if you ask
Israelis across the political Spectrum
except the very hard left most Israelis
agree with that they don't really debate
it so two-state solution where Israel
controls the security of the entire
region we don't call it quite that I
mean there are different names but the
idea is yes Israel controls Security in
the is the entire area it's this tiny
area between the Jordan River and the
sea I mean it's it's like uh you know
you can walk it in not one afternoon if
you really fit you can do it in a in a
day less less than a day I did so the uh
expansion of settlements in the West
Bank has been a top priority for this
new government uh people many harshly
criticize this as contributing to
escalating
the Israel Palestine
can you understand that perspective that
this expansion of settlements is not
good for this two-state solution yeah I
can understand I can understand what
they're saying and they don't understand
why they're wrong first the most most
Israelis who live in Judea Samara live
in uh in the urban blocks and that
accounts for about 90 percent of the of
the population okay and everybody
recognizes that those Urban blocs are
going to be part of Israel in any future
arrangement so they're really arguing
about something that has already been
decided and agreed upon really by by
Americans by even by Arabs many Arabs
they don't think that Israel is going to
dismantle these these blocks you know
you look outside the window here and
within about a kilometer a mile from
here is you have Jerusalem half of
Jerusalem grew naturally beyond the old
1967 border uh so you're not going to
dismantle half of Jerusalem that's not
going to happen uh and uh and most
people don't expect that then you have
the other uh 10 scattered in tiny uh you
know small communities and people say
well you gotta have to take them out why
why remember that in Pre uh 1967 Israel
we have a over a million and a half
Arabs here we don't say oh Israel has to
be uh ethnically cleansed from Arabs in
order to have from its Arab citizens in
order to have peace of course not Jews
can live among Arabs and Arabs can live
among Jews and what is what is being
Advanced by those people who say that we
can't live in our ancestral Homeland in
these disputed areas nobody says that
this is Palestinian areas and nobody
says that these are israeliers we claim
them they claim them we've only been
attached to this land for oh 3 500 years
but you know but it's a dispute I agree
but I don't agree that we should throw
out the Arabs and I don't think that
they should throw out the Jews and if
somebody said to you the only way we're
going to have peace with Israel is to
have an ethnically cleansed Palestinian
entity you know that that's outrageous
if you said the only way you know you
shouldn't have Jews living in I don't
know in suburbs of London or New York
and so on I don't think that will play
too well the world is actually advancing
a solution that says that uh that Jews
cannot live among Arabs and Arabs cannot
live among Jews I I don't think that's
the right way to do it uh and I I think
there's a solution out there but I don't
think we're going to get to it which is
less than perfect sovereignty which
involves Israeli security uh maintained
for the entire territory by Israel which
involves not rooting out anybody not
kicking out uprooting Arabs or
Palestinians they're going to live in
enclaves in Sovereign Israel and we're
going to live in probably an enclaves
there
probably through transportational
continuity as opposed to territorial
continuity that is uh you know for
example you can have tunnels and
overpasses and so on that connect the
various communities we're doing that
right now
we're doing that right now and it it
actually works I think there is a
solution to this uh it's not the perfect
world that people think of because that
model I think doesn't apply here uh if
it applies elsewhere it's a question uh
I don't think so but I think there's one
other thing
and that's the main thing that I've been
involved in
you know people said if you don't solve
the Palestinian problem
you're not going to get to the Arab
world you're not going to have peace
with the Arab world remember the
Palestinians are about two percent of
the Arab world
and the other you know the other 98
you're not going to make peace with them
and that's our goal
and for a long time people accepted that
after the initial peace treaties with
Egypt with the Prime Minister begin of
the likud and and president said out of
Egypt and then uh with Jordan between
prime minister Rabin and uh and kink
Hussein for quarter of a century we
didn't have any more peace treaties
because people said you got to go
through the Palestinians and the
Palestinians they don't want a solution
of the kind that I described or any kind
except the one that involved the
dissolution of the state of Israel so we
could wait another half century and I
said no I mean I don't think that we
should accept the premise that we have
to wait for the Palestinians because
we'll have to wait forever
so I decided to do it differently I
decided to go directly to the Arab
capitals uh and to make the historic
Abraham Accords uh and essentially uh
reversing the equation not a peace
process that goes inside out
but outside in and we went directly to
the these countries and forged these uh
these breakthrough Peace Accords with
the United Arab Emirates with Bahrain
with Morocco and with Sudan and we're
now trying to expand that in a Quantum
Leap
with Saudi Arabia what does it take to
do that with Saudi Arabia with the Saudi
Crown Prince Mohammed by Salman you know
I'm a student of history and I
read a lot of history and I read that uh
you know in the Versailles discussions
after World War one uh President Woodrow
Wilson said I believe in open covenants
openly arrived at I have my correction I
believed in open Covenant secretly
arrived at so there's we're not going to
advance a saudi-israeli Peace by having
it publicly discussed and in any case
it's a decision of the uh of the Saudis
if they want to do it but there's
obviously a mutual interest so here's my
view
if we try to wait for the two percent in
order to get to the 98 we're going to
fail and we have failed if we go to the
98 we have a much greater chance of
persuading the two percent you know why
because the two percent the Palestinian
uh hope to Vanquish the state of Israel
and not make peace with it is based
among other things on the pro on the
assumption that eventually the 98 the
rest of the Arab world will kick in and
destroy the Jewish State help them
dissolve or destroy the Jewish State
when that hope is
um uh taken away then you begin to have
a turn to the realistic Solutions of
coexistence by the way they'll require
compromise on the Israeli side too and
then you know I'm perfectly cognizant of
that and willing to do that but I think
a realistic compromise will be struck
much more readily when the
conflict between Israel and the Arab
states the Arab world is effectively
solved and I think we're on that path it
was a conceptual change just like you
know I've been involved in a few I told
you the conceptual battle is always the
most difficult one and you know I had to
fight this battle
to convert a semi-social estate into a
free market Capital estate and I have to
say that most people today recognize the
power of competition and the benefits of
free markets so we also had to fight
this battle that said you have to go
through the you know the the the the
Palestinian uh uh straight
s-t-r-a-i-t to get to the other places
there's no way to avoid this you know
you have to go through this this uh
impassable pass and I think that now
people are recognizing that will go
around it and probably Circle back and
that I think actually gives hope not
only to have an Arab Israeli piece but
circling back in israeli-palestinian
piece and obviously this is not
something that you find in the you know
in the sound bites and so on uh but but
in the in the popular discussion of the
press but that idea is permeating and I
think it's the right idea because I
think it's the only one that will work
so expanding the circle piece just to
linger on that requires what secretly
talking
man to man human to Human
uh to leaders of other nations
and theoretically you're right
theoretically okay
well let me ask you another theoretical
question
um on the circle of peace
as a student of History
looking at the ideas of War and Peace
what do you think can achieve peace in
the war in Ukraine blinking on another
part of the world if you
if you consider the fight for peace in
this part of the world
how can you apply that to that other
part of the world between Russia and
Ukraine now
I think it's one of the
The Savage horrors of history and one of
the great tragedies that is occurring
um
and let me say in advance that uh that
if I have any opportunity to
use my uh contacts to help bring about
it into this tragedy I'll do so uh I've
had I know both leaders
but I don't just jump in and and assume
you know if there's be a desire at a
certain point
because the conditions have
created the possibility of
helping stop this this Carnage then I'll
do it and that's why I choose my words
carefully because I think that may be
the best uh uh the best thing that I
could do
look I I think what you see
in Ukraine is what happens if you have
territorial designs on a territory by a
country that has nuclear weapons
and that to me you see the change in the
equation now
I think that people are loath to use
nuclear weapons and I'm not sure that I
would uh think that the the Russian side
would use them
with happy abandon I don't think that's
the cushion but you see how the whole
configuration changes uh when that
happens so you have to be very careful
and how you resolve this conflict so it
doesn't
uh well it does go off the rails so to
speak that's by the way the the
corollary is here we don't want Iran
which is an aggressive force with an
unlim just aggressive ideology of
dominating
first the Muslim world and then
eliminating Israel and then becoming a
you know Global force uh having nuclear
weapons it's totally different when they
don't have it than when they do have it
and that's why one of my main goals has
been to prevent Iran from having the
means to uh the means of mass
destruction which will be used atomic
bombs which they openly say will be used
against us and you can understand that
how to bring about an end to Ukraine
I have my ideas I don't think I don't
think it's worthwhile uh
discussing them now because they might
they might be required later on do you
believe in the power of conversation
since you have contacts with the
Vladimir zielinski and Vladimir Putin
just leaders sitting in a room
And discussing how the end of War can be
brought about
I think it's a combination of that but I
think it's the question of interest and
uh and whether you have to get both
sides
to to a point where they
think that that conversation would lead
to something useful that I don't think
they're there right now what part of of
this is just basic human ego
stubbornness all of this between leaders
which is why I bring up the power of
conversation of sitting in a room
realizing we're human beings and then
there's a history that connects Ukraine
and Russia yeah I don't think they're in
a position to enter a room right now
realistically I mean you can posit that
it would be good if that could happen
but entering the room is sometimes more
complicated than what happens when
there's a lot of you know
pre-negotiation on the negotiation then
you negotiate endlessly on the
negotiation they're not even there it
took a lot of work for you to get a
handshake
in the past
it's an interesting question how did the
Peace the Abraham Accords how did that
begin
you know I mean we had you know we had
decades but 70 years where they or 65
years where these people you know would
not uh
meet openly or even secretly with an
Israeli leader yeah we had the the
Mossad making contacts with them all the
time and so on but how do we break the
ice to the top level of leadership well
we broke the ice because I took a very
strong stance against Iran
and the Gulf States understood that Iran
is a formidable danger to them so we had
a common interest and the second thing
is that because of the economic reforms
that we had produced in Israel Israel
became a technological Powerhouse and
that could help their Nations not only
in terms of anything just bettering the
life of their peoples
and the combination of the uh
of the desire to have
some kind of uh protection against Iran
or some kind of cooperation against Iran
and civilian economic cooperation uh
came to a head when I gave a speech in
the American Congress
uh which I didn't do lightheartedly I
had to decide to challenge a sitting
American president and uh on the the
so-called Iranian deal uh which I
thought would pave Iran's path with gold
to Be an Effective nuclear power that's
what would happen
uh
so I went there
and in the course of giving that speech
before the joint session of Congress
our delegation received calls from Gulf
States
who said we can't believe what your
prime minister is doing he's challenging
you know the president of the United
States well I had no choice I mean
because I thought my country's own
existence was imperiled and remember we
always understand through changing
administrations that America
under no matter what leadership is
always the Irreplaceable and
indispensable Ally of Israel and who
always remained that we can have
arguments as we have but in the families
we say you know it's the the family but
nevertheless I was forced to take a
stand that produced
calls from Gulf States that ultimately
led to clandestine meetings that
ultimately flowered into the the Abraham
Accords then and I think we're at a
point where the idea of ending the
arab-israeli conflict not the
palestinian-israeli conflict the
arab-israeli conflict can happen I'm not
sure it will it depends on quite a few
things but it could happen and if it
happens it might open up the ending of
the Israeli Islamic conflict remember
the Arab world is a small part
it's an important part but it's there
are large Islamic populations and could
bring about uh and then to the historic
enmity between Islam and Judaism it
could be a great thing so I'm looking at
this larger thing you know you can you
can be hobbled by saying well well you
know you've had this uh you know
this hiccup in Gaza or you know this uh
this or that thing happening in the in
the Palestinians I don't it's important
for us because we want security but I
think the larger question is can we
break out into a much wider piece and
ultimately come back and make the uh the
peace between Israel and the
Palestinians rather than waiting to
solve that uh and and never getting to
the the uh to paint on the large of
canvas I I want to paint on the larger
canvas and come back to the
palestinian-israeli conflict
as you write about in your book what
have you learned about life from your
father
my father was a great historian
um
and well he taught me um
several things he said that the
the first
um conditioned for a living organism is
to identify danger in time
because if you don't you could be
devoured you could be destroyed very
quickly and that's the nature of human
conflict in fact for the Jewish people
we didn't we lost the capacity to
identify danger in time and we were
almost devoured and destroyed by the
Nazi thread so when I see somebody
parroting the Nazi uh goal of destroying
the Jewish State I tried to mobilize
the country and the world in time
because I think Iran is a global threat
not only a threat to Israel that's the
first thing the second thing is I once
asked him before I got elected I said
well what do you think is the most
important
quality for a prime minister of Israel
and he came back with a question what do
you think and I said well you have to
vision
and you have to have the you know the
flexibility of navigating and working
towards that Vision uh you know be
flexible but understand where you're
heading
and he said well you need that for
anything you need it for uh you know if
you're a university president or if
you're a leader of a corporation or
anything
anybody would have to have that I said
it's all right so so what do you need
for it to be the the uh the leader of
Israel he said
he came back to me with a word that
stunned me
he said
education you need a broad and deep
education or you'll be at the mercy of
your clerks
or the press or whatever and you have to
you have to be able to
to do that now you know as I spend time
in government
re being re-elected you know by uh
by the the people of Israel
I I recognize more and more how how
right he was you you need to
constantly ask yourself
where's the direction we want to take
the country how do we achieve that goal
but also understand that new disciplines
are being added you have to learn all
the time you have to learn all the time
you have to add to your intellectual
Capital all the time Kissinger said that
he wrote that once you enter public life
you begin to draw on your intellectual
Capital uh and you know it'll be
depleted very quickly if you stay a long
time uh
I disagree with that I think you have to
constantly constantly increase your
understanding of
things as they change because because my
father was right you need to broaden and
deepen your education as you go along
you can't just sit back and say well I
studied some things in University or in
college or in Boston or at MIT and
that's enough you know I've done it now
learn learn learn never stop and if I
may suggest as part of the education I
would add in a little literature maybe
Dostoyevsky uh in the in in the
plentiful of time you have as a prime
minister to read well I read him but
I'll tell you what I think is bigger
than Dostoevsky oh no who's that not
who's that but what's that I was Dan
Rather came to see me with his grandson
few years ago and he asked me uh
the grandson asked me it was a student
in an Ivy League College and he said
he's 18 years old and he wants to study
to enter politics
and he said what's what's the most
important thing that I have to study to
enter a political life
and I said you have three things you
have to study
okay
history
and history
that's that's the fundamental discipline
for political life but then you have to
study other things study economics study
politics and and so on and study study
the military
if you have if you had an advantage
because I spent some years there so I
learned a lot of that but I had to
acquire the other disciplines and you
never acquire enough so
read read and by the way if I have to
choose I read history history and
history
good works of History not lousy books
last question you've talked about a
survival of a Nation
you yourself are a mortal being do you
contemplate your mortality
to contemplate your death are you afraid
of death
aren't you yes who's not I mean if your
conscience if you're a a a being with
conscience I mean one of the unhappy
things about the human brain is that it
can contemplate its own uh uh its own
demise and so we have to we all make our
compromises with this but I I think the
question is what lives on
uh what lives on Beyond us and I think
that you have to Define how much of uh
of posterity do you want to influence I
cannot influence
course of uh Humanity we are specs you
know little specks so that's not the
issue but in my case I've devoted my
life to a very defined purpose and that
is to assure the future
and security and
I would say permanence but that is
obviously a limited thing of the Jewish
State and the Jewish people I don't
think one can exist without the other so
I've devoted my life to that and I hope
that
in my time on this Earth and in my years
in office I'd have contributed to that
well you had one heck of a life
starting from uh MIT to six terms as
prime minister
thank you for this stroll through human
history and for this conversation it was
an honor thank you and I hope you come
back to Israel many times it's uh
remember it's the Innovation Nation it's
a robust democracy don't believe all the
stuff that you're being told it'll
remain that uh it kind of be any other
way and it's I'll tell you the other
thing
is the best ally of the United States
and its importance is growing by the day
because our capacities in the
information world are growing by today
we need a coalition of the like-minded
smarts
this is a smart Nation
and we share the basic values of freedom
and liberty with the United States so
the Coalition of the smarts
means Israel is uh the sixth eye and
America has no better Ally
all right now off Mike I'm gonna force
you to finally tell me who's going to
win Elon musker Mark Zuckerberg but
that's uh
that's a good time man we ran out of
time here I'll tell you outside
thanks for listening to this
conversation with Benjamin Netanyahu to
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let me leave you with some words from
Mahatma Gandhi
and I for an eye will only make the
whole world blind
thank you for listening and hope to see
you next time