Kind: captions
Language: en
let's imagine you have a black rapper
who invites people on stage and let's
suppose they invite a black person on
stage and they're perfectly happy when
the black person
flew out with you know their lyrics
they invite a white person on stage
the white person is you know that
doesn't really you know sort of
mystified but it comes on stage and full
out with what the rapper says including
the infamous N word and then the black
rapper gets mad
imagine the white comedian who satirizes
that pokes fun at that
and in poking fun at that says the
infamous n-word am I angry no I'm not
angry not angry at all
the following is a conversation with
Randall Kennedy professor at Harvard Law
School and author of many seminal books
on Race law history culture and politics
including specifically on affirmative
action criminal justice policing and the
topic explores extensively in this
conversation the single most powerful
word and slur in the English language
the n-word or the hard r at the end
Randall has written a book with this
word as the title and word the strange
career of a Troublesome word
please be warned that Randall uses this
word throughout this conversation
deliberately and skillfully to discuss
its power and its role in The History of
the United States
I don't intend to shy away from
controversial topics like these and I'll
work hard to handle them thoughtfully
and thoroughly with respect and with
empathy
often with several guests who have very
different perspectives on the topic in
the end I believe in the power of
long-form conversations the heel divides
by furthering understanding of human
nature of human history and the full
diversity of The Human Experience this
is Alex Friedman podcast to support it
please check out our sponsors in the
description and now dear friends here's
Randall Kennedy
you wrote a book whose title is the
n-word spelled out with a hard r at the
end so let's start with the history of
this word what is the history of the
n-word the word you're referring to is
nigger
the book that you're referring to is
nigger the strange career of a
Troublesome word
the word dates back to the 16th 17th
century it's got a long lineage in other
words
basically
Latin basically Spanish basically
nig you know black in various
formulations
we don't know actually how the term
nigger became
a slur
so there were words that were close to
nijer that were used in various ways for
instance nigg
Uh u h has been was used in IGG you are
used and sometimes it was used in a way
that seemed to be
just purely descriptive we do know that
by the early 19th century it had become
a slur it had become a derogatory word
about which people complained but
exactly how that came about not all
together clear
so it's been 20 years since you've
written the book what have you uh what
wisdom have you gained about this word
since writing the book and maybe having
to interact with people having to read
having to see having to feel the
response to the book this book has
generated a lot of controversy I I
thought it would it's probably generated
more controversy that I had anticipated
it is certainly generated more
uh
uh more different sorts of experiences
that I had anticipated so for instance
I did not think that writing this book
would prompt people to ask me to be an
expert witness in cases
and over the past 20 years I've been an
expert witness in a number of different
cases I've been an expert witness in
case in a murder case
in various cases of uh of assault I've
been an expert witness in cases
involving
tort cases intentional infliction of
emotional distress I've been an expert
witness in a number of employment cases
um I I had not uh anticipated that nor
had I anticipated the extent to which
people would get in trouble
for using my book every year uh there
are teachers who are suspended or who
are fired uh because they will exert a
chapter of my book Let's uh let's
imagine a and this is not I'm not
imagining things does this happen that's
a teacher is teaching for instance
um The Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn
the word nigger appears in that book
over 200 times the teacher trying to be
Earnest trying to be sensible trying to
be serious will exert a part of my book
uh to acquaint students with the history
of the word and maybe the history of
controversy involving
the use of the word in this particular
novel the student you know the teacher
will give it out hand it out to the
teachers uh hand it out to students and
there have been a number of teachers
who've been suspended or worse because
of that uh t uh uh students will get
upset go home tell their parents their
parents will storm to the school and say
that this is you know this is terrible
the teacher is quote using the word
nigger uh in an offensive way and uh
oftentimes administrators will uh
basically abandon the the the teacher
and this when whenever this comes to my
attention
um I write I'll write the
you know superintendent of schools or
write the principal or sometimes I'll
you know I'll write a uh an opinion
editorial piece for the local newspaper
but every year there are teachers who
are
disciplined uh for using my book I I had
not I had not anticipated that
and what is the nature of the letter or
the or the op-ed that you write
on why they shouldn't be disciplined or
if they do they to the degree they
should be or shouldn't be there's
there's not been one case
uh that has come to my attention in
which it was even remotely sensible
for the teacher to be disciplined
and what I say is that number one
frankly I go through it's the what I
write is almost a synopsis of my book
number one this is an important word in
American history it is a word that is
explosive that's why people get so upset
it's a word that's volatile it's a word
that uh has typically has typically been
used in a terrible way it's a word that
is part of the soundtrack of racial
terrorism in the United States so people
ought to know about this word I mean if
you're interested in uh knowing the Real
History of the United States if you're
interested in knowing about lynching if
you're interested in knowing about the
way in which uh black people have been
terrorized in the United States you need
to know this word you need to know that
history so you need to know why it is
that people are upset about the word but
that's not but it doesn't end there
you have to know that and if you know
that then uh that knowledge should equip
you
to be careful
it should equip you to know that
you know to know to know the the range
of contexts in which this word appears
but again it doesn't just end there
because especially young people you tell
that to young people and they nod they
read they understand that
but then but then what but then they
turn on their radios and they turn on
you know they listen to Spotify they
listen to their some of their favorite
uh entertainers they listen to Dr Dre
they listen to The Ghetto boys they
listen to you know Snoop
uh and they listen to NWA
what do they hear they they they they
listen to stand-up comedians they listen
to uh Dave Chappelle they listen to Kat
Williams
uh uh they you know what do they hear
they hear the word nigger
or nigga
being used in a lot of different ways
and so they need to know about that as
well what are people doing what do
how does one explain
the fact that
Dick Gregory Dick Gregory was a comedian
activist
friend of Martin Luther King Jr a true
activist I mean he had a very a
flourishing
careers and Entertainer that he abandons
in order to struggle for racial Justice
throughout the United States and
including the Deep South how does one
explain the fact that the he wrote
several Memoirs but his first Memoir is
called nigger
a memoir how does one explain that
how does one explain the way in which
how does one explain Richard Pryor
I mean Richard Pryor's best album is
that nigga's crazy
well was Richard Pryor trying to put
down black people how does one explain
that one can only explain that by
getting deeper into the word by
understanding that yes
this is a word that has been used in a
derogatory way this has been this is a
word that has been used to put people
down this has been this is a word that
has been used to terrorize people you've
got to know that
but you also have to know that this is a
word that has also been put to other
uses uh there are artists there are
entertainers
who have used this word like Dick
Gregory used it to put up a mirror to
American society
and say look at this word and look at
the terrible way in which it's been used
we don't want you to look away no don't
look away
we're not no euphemism no asterisk no no
inward no nigger now we want you to look
at that
and we want to talk about that James
Baldwin
James bold there was a there was a
documentary
about James Baldwin a couple of years
ago highly lauded documentary
the title that was given as documentary
was I am not your negro that's not what
James Baldwin said anybody can talk go
to YouTube right now take a look James
Baldwin said I am not your nigger and
then he went on to talk about that
well you know James Baldwin wasn't again
he he wasn't sworn to cover up anything
he wanted people to face the facts of
American Life
and it seems to me that if you're a
teacher
and you want to have your students face
the facts about American life well
you've got to Grapple with the word
nigger now let me just quickly say you
know teachers have a tough job
and
um if we're talking about students of
course there's a wide range of students
am I saying that one ought to give my
book to kindergarteners no you know
kindergarteners are probably not ready
for such a book
uh third graders probably no not third
grade if we're talking however about
people in the 10th grade do I think the
10th graders can read my book yeah sure
absolutely 11th graders 12th graders
people in college there are people in
college
there are people in college there are
people in law schools teachers in law
schools have been disciplined
for uh because the word nigger has come
out of a teacher's mouth why in a couple
of cases recently teacher would be
reading a uh a court opinion
the word appears in the court opinion
the teacher pronounces the word ah
you know students get up
leave in a huff report the teacher
there's some instances in which teachers
have been under those circumstances have
been disciplined in my view that's bad
and people ought to say it's bad it's
bad pedagogically
uh and um
uh frankly in many of these instances
it's just not only is stupid and I don't
mind saying that I think that some of
these instances in which teachers have
been disciplined absolutely stupid
people say well the teacher used the
word excuse me use the word it'd be one
thing it'd be one thing if a teacher
looked at a student and called the
student nigger
you know get out of here nigger that'd
be one that'd be you know fine
discipline that's teacher that's that's
bad
but that's not what's going on
you don't have this these none of these
are cases in which you have an
individual who is a stranger to another
individual and this word just sort of
comes out no what we have here is a
class
involving a person who is a teacher
interacting with students
talking about subjects in which it would
be perfectly understandable why this
word would emerge as a subject of
conversation
now under those circumstances it's
somehow wrong for a teacher to you to to
utter this word in my view the answer is
no and
you know
um I said that 20 years ago I say I say
it even more emphatically now
still it is one of the most powerful
words in the English language
and uh there's a kind of
responsibility that we as humans should
have with words yes with statements
that word
if not used skillfully if not used
competently even when just read from a
legal transcript can do more more harm
than good
uh I agree with what you say yes words
are powerful words do matter
and so I am certainly not
suggesting that people be lacks I'm not
suggesting that people
um be irresponsible
it's precisely because words matter
however
that we need to be willing
to face words and grapple with words and
talk about words and talk about the
history of words precisely because words
matter
and
um among other things it seems to me
it's important to understand that words
can mean different things in different
contexts it's not the case that
a word
means the same thing in every context
the word discriminating
sometimes it's a very bad thing that
person discriminates
and when if you know again you know
intonation of voice means something if I
say that person discriminates
and I'm obviously being disapproving
implicitly what I'm saying is that
person
distinguishes between things on an
unjustifiable basis and that's a bad
thing on the other hand that person has
discriminating taste
oh that means something very different
that means that the person
differentiates in a way that shows that
they understand the difference between
excellent good and not so good and we
think that that's a good thing so words
can have different you know words can
mean different things in different
contexts it seems to me that that's
something that actually we ought to
recognized we ought to recognize and
talk about well some words enter this
territory of being a slur
and it seems like when they cross the
line into being a slur
the there's the number of contexts in
which it's okay to mention it
exponentially decreases
right uh no no I'm gonna no I'm gonna
resist that a little bit because the
whole idea of
you know slurs
slurs change
Yankee was a slur
Yankee was a slur in uh you know 18th
century United States
uh slur today
you know New York Yankees I'm a Yankee
fan I'm a Yankee
um
queer
queer uh you know you know and this is
in in in in my lifetime there was a time
you know that
you queer
and people would really run away from it
and that was you know a bad thing and
then thank goodness
uh Gay Liberation movement Gay
Liberation movement basically we're not
going to run away from this
we're gonna grab this quote slur
and we're going to affix it to ourselves
and we are going to repurpose it
now the word queer is again you know can
it be a slur yeah it can be a slur
doesn't have to be
and it seems to me that it's important
for people to know about
how a word a symbol in some context can
be a slur in some context doesn't have
to be
so the whole idea of
what's a slur
that could that's a that's a complicated
idea in and of itself it's very
complicated it's uh if I may say almost
fascinating how language evolves but if
we were to
kind of have a minute by minute
evaluation of the most powerful
intensely slur-like words in the world I
think the n-word with a hard r at the
end which is the title of your book is
number one on that list
well I probably so and of course that's
one of the reasons why I wrote a little
book about it yeah but it hasn't even
since you wrote a little book about it
it seems like it's maintained its number
one status you mentioned queer
uh it's uh maybe queer was in the top 20
I don't know for a while and now it's
sliding into the uh top uh thousand and
and the n-word is at the top you're
absolutely right the origins of this uh
book
I I clearly remember I was I was at my
office
and I was thinking about lecture topics
and I get invited to give lectures from
time to time
and I was thinking well you know what
what might make for an interesting
lecture and all of a sudden
the word nigger popped into my mind
now this is a word I've I've grown up
with this word I mean there's there's
never been a time in my life
when
um at least in my conscious life
that in which I've
in which this word's been absent I mean
in in my household for instance in my
household
my parents are black people
uh my parents were refugees from the Jim
Crow South I was born in the Deep South
South Carolina
in my household
I heard the word nigger used in every
possible way
I heard it used as a slur
I also heard it used with respect to
people who were praised
you know my father I clearly remember
my father whom I Revere
um uh that's the smartest nigga in the
world that's the bravest nigger in the
world that's the baddest nigger I know
it was he he wasn't putting people down
this is the way he talked and I grew up
hearing this word in various ways
and so I was thinking to myself God
where did this word come from
and one of the first things I did I
clearly remember just jumping up and I'm
a seat running up to the library Oxford
English Dictionary when did this word
first appear in English was the history
of the word
and then what really sort of grabbed my
attention
is um
I went I I I get my computer going
and I asked the computer system
um give me every case
every federal court case in which this
word appears thousands of cases
and then I said oh my goodness this is
really and you know this is really
interesting and then I started just
cataloging all the different cases
there came a point I'd say probably
about a month into this
I compared the usage I compared the
number of times
nigger came up with other sorts of slurs
so for instance kike
k-i-k-e long time you know you know
derogatory word for Jews how many times
does this word come up
there was a time
in which the word appeared but
nothing like the infamous inward nothing
and then I you know what about wet back
what about and then I just you know let
me let me just take a look at all the
other slurs
nothing came close not even remotely
close
to nigger and I think it has something
to do with
um I think it has something to do with
the uniqueness
of the color line particularly as it
pertains to African Americans
I think that the the fact that nigger
uh sort of occupies such a unique status
among slurs
I think that's a reflection
of the unique stigma
that has been imposed on African
Americans it's hard to know uh the
chicken or the egg
why one word is able to sow
distinctly and clearly encapsulate this
struggle between races that is
throughout American history I mean they
didn't have to probably be so but it
came to be that way it became that not
only that not only that but of course
then nigger spurred other slurs so Arabs
sand niggers
um the Irish the niggers of Europe
um women the niggers of the world John
Lennon even has a song that's right
well I think Yoko Ono I think had
something to do with that song
so I mean it is a slur that has
spawned other slurs and again this is
that's why you know as you indicated a
moment ago this is a quite
unique
term
but are you
conscious
are you deliberate in you saying this
word so let me just say from a personal
experience
maybe my upbringing where I came from
in my daily life
I don't think I've ever heard that word
with a hard R said is often used clearly
in my life that I've heard it today more
than I have ever heard of my entire life
and uh I think there's a
a few people who listen to this that
will be listening to this and be very
uncomfortable I would say not in a bad
way
probably in a good way
I'm uncomfortable now and I am almost
introspecting and trying to figure out
why am I uncomfortable and
I think even the title of your book is
making me think that just just looking
into my own mind and trying to
understand wow Words of Power and why
does it have so much power but are you
deliberate in that action and by the way
not only are the people listening to
this sweating this will be on YouTube in
part
and YouTube the people on the other side
will be sweating what do we do with this
yeah
well am I deliberate yeah the answer is
yes
and let me unpack that a little bit
first
that's right I mean uh am I deliberate
yeah I deliberately I deliberately wrote
a book called nigger the strange career
of a Troublesome word
and you know was that deliberate yeah
that was quite deliberate but the title
could have been n-word versus the title
could have been the title could have
been in word sure the title could have
been the title could have been
a book about a word that causes pain to
many people I could have named it that
uh there are many there are many titles
I could have used
um did I want a title that would be
provocative did I want a title that
would grab people the answer to that is
yes
what do you know I'm a writer I want
people to read what I write
was I being sensationalistic
well I mean if if you want to put it
like that yes
I don't I don't I'm not embarrassed to
say that I mean uh I'm sure that when
people write books they think really
hard about their titles and they try to
get a title that will you know grab
people's attention
I know people
respect people very deeply
who never
as a matter of principle never
utter this word
and I've talked with people I've had
people say
um you know I read your book let's talk
about it but let's be very clear I'm not
going to use the word I've had many
conversations with people who've asked
me not to use the word
I was on a I was on a the first time
this came up
was a book tour it was 20 years ago when
the first book first came out
and I was on one of these uh uh call-in
shows early in the morning
time came to call in seven o'clock I
call in at five or seven right before I
go on the host of the show says oh by
the way
we have a strict policy here at the
station we never use this word
and I said well gosh I wish you had told
me this earlier does this mean then that
you're never going to pronounce fully
the title of my book and she said that's
right and I had to make a choice right
then and there am I going to go on or am
I not what'd you do I went on and I
abided by the station's rules
and you know fine we had a perfectly
fine conversation
um and you know I there is a place for
euphemism the American language is a
very Supple language there are lots of
words that one can use I do not get
angry with people who
um don't you know they say as a matter
of principle they're not going to use
the word fine I I'm willing to I
understand where they're coming from
and uh often I will defer to their
wishes
um all I say is I want people to
understand where I'm coming from
I'm not just using this word willy-nilly
there's a pedagogical reason there is a
reason for why I'm saying what I'm
saying there is a reason why
I use the word
can you make the case why using the word
is a good idea and can you make can you
still man the case why it's a bad idea
maybe you've heard from some critics yes
who said that you saying this word out
loud is actually causing a lot of harm
not like uh harm because people's
feelings are hurt but increasing the
amount of racism and hate in the world
yeah critics let's start with the
critics
um one again going back to the when the
book was first published
I remember going to uh the first
bookstore I went to
and I talked about the book had a very
you know talked asked questions
and the last comment
wasn't a question but the last comment
was made by a
uh
an elderly black man
I called on him
and he said I've listened to what you've
had to say and I appreciate what you've
had to say
but he he said but I remain unconvinced
and I remain unconvinced because
when I was coming up
this word
was used to put me in the back of the
bus
and this word was used to prevent me
from voting
and this was the word that was used to
justify me never being called as a juror
so to me this word has only one meaning
it's a terrible meaning
I'm never going to use the word
it hurts me when I hear people use the
word
especially those who don't know anything
about the you know really about the
history of it
and he went on to say I think that your
book though well intended
is probably going to be seen by some
people as giving them permission to use
the word
and then he stopped
and I thought there was a lot of power
behind that gentleman's comment
I think that what he said is probably
correct in so far is there probably some
people who read the you know read the
book they're probably some people who
are listening to our conversation right
now
who will
um
think that I'm giving people permission
to use the word
um
you know I have said that I'm I'm not
I want people to understand the word I
think that there is a burden that comes
from whenever whenever you utter a word
like this
uh but that's you know that's a critique
and I think there's I think there's
strength to that critique I'm not going
to say that that's a ridiculous critique
I think that there is something to that
and by the way I should say and that's
why
I would say to anyone
um
that's right if this word comes out of
your mouth you are taking on real
responsibility so for years it doesn't
happen so much now but they were I'd say
for about the first
five years after this book was published
I would get an email
at least once a week and it would begin
like this
you know Dear Professor Kennedy
uh I read your book and I'm calling to
ask you a question
and as soon as I saw that I knew what
the question was going to be and it
would what the person would say is the
following
I like rap and then I knew I knew it was
coming I like rap I'm white
and I have black friends and we listen
to rap and we're you know we're driving
in the car and we're you know we're
we're listening to the song we start you
know we start humming along and singing
singing along and my black friends sing
along and when nigger or nigga comes up
they sing
and I don't know what to do
is it wrong for me to sing along
this happened so often
that
I'd say about after about the tenth time
I got in such an email I wrote a form
letter
because I didn't want to just you know
take up time
writing you know you know sort of
crafting letter after letter so I wrote
a form letter and basically what I said
was listen number one
you know I'm flattered that you're
asking me but number one you you should
have a conversation with your friend
number two no matter what your friend
says let me put something else
for you to consider let's suppose for
the sake of discussion that your friend
says oh doesn't bother me I know where
you're coming from we're just enjoying
the music
I don't think that this is a you know a
racist utterance you know coming out of
your mouth let's suppose that your
friend says that
that doesn't end matters because
let's imagine the following let's
imagine that you're in a a theater
and you're waiting for the
you know film to start
and you just you know talking with your
friends or singing with your friends or
just you know kicking back with your
friends
and they're talking about nigger this or
nigga this
and you say it you the white boys say it
and the next thing you feel is a fist a
big fist in your mouth
that has been launched by a person that
you did not see who was right behind you
all this person saw was a white person
saying nigga and the next thing pal
that's not
you know some sort of overheated
scenario coming from some law
professor's mind that is a very
plausible scenario so you have to be
worried about lots of things including
mistake
so my advice to you my is be prudent
I would stay clear of the word unless
unless you're very certain and unless if
you're called on it
you feel you're in a position to defend
yourself defend what you're doing
but The Prudent thing would be to stay
clear there's so many questions I want
to ask there one is about the violence
the legal aspect of that it's very
interesting uh you raise that in the
book but you know I do want to bring up
something I probably disagree with you
on which is uh you say that there's not
a significant difference between the
different variations of the n-word
the one the or maybe maybe you don't I
just listened to a bunch of your
interviews so uh there's the the version
with the
uh ER at the end version with a ga at
the end and then g r o at the end
these are all different versions and I
feel like in that list of powerful words
you know I feel like there's a
distinction yes I feel that the number
one uh spot is the one with the hard R
and
I don't know maybe you can
um
try to shed light but I feel like the
one that ends in GA is really far down
the list
in terms of modern culture so this is we
talked about the evolution of the words
and uh the word queer for example it
feels like because maybe because of rap
because of comedians because it's become
much more it lost so much of its power
well oh you don't think so no I think
there's a difference between nigger and
nigga I mean people make a distinction
between them
and I think that to the extent that lots
of people make a distinction between
them I think you know just as a
sociological fact they are different
um
I think that people who get upset
if somebody especially white people so
you know if a white person says nigga
and they're you know and and they and
their
you know sort of criticized about it and
they say well I didn't say nigger I said
nigga I believe me I think most people
you know most people who are mad at them
are gonna stay mad at them
um now you you raise the word you know
so nigger and nigga I would put
in a very different category than negro
educate me here well yeah sure I'm happy
to
um negro
is a
um also controversial
it's also controversial
um
but
negro
has never been viewed by a substantial
number of people
as a derogatory term at least in the in
with the same amount of animus the same
amount of
um
it's it's it's a very different kind of
word than nigger or nigga I mean after
all I mean you know negro negro Martin
Luther King Jr
you know you know uh all of his great
oratory negro you read the work of
um the great W.E.B Du Bois negro
uh you read the work of
my boss so for instance I use the word
negro
I use African-American black
Afro-American
uh but I also use the word negro now
there are some people who get really mad
at me because of you know when I use the
word negro
and this so for instance they're
students who've gotten really quite
exercised
and they'll say you know I'll be giving
a lecture and you know a handle go up
I'll call on somebody and they'll say
listen are you using the word negro
in its purely because of the historical
time period that you're using so you you
know is that why you're using it or are
you using it in your own voice
and often I'll say well I'm using it in
my own voice and they'll say well I'm
offended
we think that this is you know that's
old-timey it's derogatory
when this first came up I
I said let's pause for a moment
and I'll take that under advisement
and let me let me look into this and I
ended up writing an essay about it an
essay about the history
of the terms that black people have used
to describe themselves
it's a long list you know black colored
Afro-American African-American negro Etc
so I go through all that and I said now
let me just tell you I I know for
certain when I started using the word
negro
uh often in in writing I can date it
uh 1983 the summer of 1983 is when I
started using the word negro
in my professional life
as a lawyer
and I did it for a very specific reason
I did it because my boss demanded that I
negro capital in
now who was my boss
my boss in the summer of 1983
was associate Justice of the United
States Supreme Court Thurgood Marshall
known as Mr civil rights
now it seems to me
you're telling me that this word is so
out of bounds that this word is
derogatory nobody should ever use this
word does the fact that Thurgood
Marshall demanded that I use this word
does that complicate things a little bit
and so I think that people again you
know ought to know more
I mean I've encountered students who
don't know very much
but who want to lecture me yeah on on
word usage
uh because they know you know three
sentences
about current fashion
and hold it you know hold it
by the way I I push it further I
sometimes use the word colored and then
some people really don't like that
color well you know there's there's a
there's an organization still very much
uh alive in American life and law
the National Association for the
advancement of colored people the NAACP
they haven't changed their name
and as far as I'm concerned it's a
wonderful organization
um there are people who have used the
word colored that's what my grandmother
used colored
perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned
so again
uh we there are lots of different words
that one can use you can use different
formulations understand that people have
different preferences
fine
I have my preferences at least know
where I'm coming from
still words have power and they have
power to hurt and there's
um
there's a lot of reasons
that I could see to justify the use of
the word in its full form as you're
saying when in this conversation is
you're using it one of them is perhaps
uh fighting for the freedom to be able
to use those kinds of words uh so let me
ask you about the freedom of speech
um
and the censorship of the word uh should
the use of the N word be censored for
example on social networks
so we can come up with different places
we can say University campuses uh maybe
in um op-eds or I don't know but I think
social networks currently is a very
interesting place there's a lot of
conversations that are happening on them
there's the ability the technical
capability to sentence
to remove the ability of people to use
the word uh do you think they should be
allowed to use the word on Twitter for
example
um my response is it all depends on the
way in which the word is being used if
the word is being used to intimidate if
the word is being used to
um
uh terrorize
then no along with lots of other words
by the way I mean you can have you could
I could use the word I suppose gentleman
I mean I'm sure that I could conjure up
a way in which that word could be used
and of you know intimidating way so
I'm
should would I be happy
if there was a technology
that always blanked this word
n-i-g-g-e-r Imma Be I would be against
that
for one thing it would erase uh the name
of one of my books
and uh I'm I think that you know and I'm
I think the book actually has a lot of
useful information makes some useful
points
um if and by the way if let's imagine
let's imagine a world in which there was
a technology
that
blanked every time n i g g e r appeared
you would have what would that do
to novels by James Baldwin by Tony
Morrison by what would that do to the
speeches of Malcolm X Martin Luther King
Jr what would that do to the comedy
albums of Richard Pryor Kat Williams
Dave Chappelle
um you know what would that if if one
sort of plays that out
would one want to have all of those
blanks
in
important
literary
and political
uh performances
no I don't want such blanks
what I want I would want for people I
would want the word to be there and for
people to understand how to deal with
this word and by the way you've used the
word hurt an awful lot so let's talk
about her
um I think we need to be more careful
with the way in which we deal with hurt
because
um people can be justifiably hurt
you can have justifiably hurt feelings
and if somebody has justifiably hurt
feelings I then think that we should
turn to the person who has hurt those
feelings and say you have acted wrongly
because this person's feelings are
justifiably hurt in relationship to what
you've done
on the other hand
there are people who have hurt feelings
and frankly
it's unjustified so just just imagine
the following let's let's imagine that I
give a talk
about the greatness of Martin Luther
King Jr
and then let's imagine that a Ku Klux
klansman comes up to me after my talk
and says oh you have now hurt my
feelings
what am I supposed to be am I supposed
to apologize am I supposed to be
regretful that my talk about the
greatness of Martin Luther King Jr has
hurt the feelings of the klansmen no my
response is going to be you know you
need to reevaluate your feelings
because actually uh your feeling of hurt
is unjustified and no I'm you know no
there's no apology coming from me but
there there's a kind of line and perhaps
the gray area and maybe the word hurt
has been overused because if you try to
avoid hurting
uh a small fraction of society that is
mentally weak in a way where everything
hurts them that's that's the wrong way
to build a society but if we flip that
upside down and say trying to maximize
the amount of love in the world
uh and think about decisions we make in
terms of the language you use to try to
maximize the amount of love and not just
short term but long term okay and that's
where freedom of speech is very powerful
because it's a short-term painful thing
often but long-term beneficial thing
just having freedom and so there's where
the question of the n-word starts to
come in
how much
uh
how do we think about its use on the
internet on college campuses in a way
that maximizes the amount of love and
compassion and camaraderie in the world
I think that's good and I'm you know I
would associate myself with
uh your vision how can we maximize how
can we maximize love no I love that I I
think that's great so let's let's take
that on
um I doubt that the way of doing that
is to
um
uh erase
the infamous inward
I doubt that the way of doing that
is to
say to people
we understand that your feelings are
really hurt and we're going to do all
that we can
to avoid this symbolic action you know
maybe this word or maybe this symbol we
we're going to really we're going to do
all that we can to suppress it
so that we can have a more loving
Universe I doubt that that's the way to
do it I think a better way to do it I
think a better way to do it
would be to fully educate people
including educate people such that
you see that over there
that is the uniform of the Klu Klux Klan
I want you to be educated about the
uniform of the Klu Klux Klan so that you
can look at the uniform of the Ku Klux
Klan and know what it's about you're not
terrorized by it
you're not immediately you're not you
know you don't see it and sync to your
needs and start wailing and crying
you don't see it and say I'm traumatized
no you don't do any of that you see it
you understand it if somebody asks you
about it you're fully prepared to talk
about it
seems to me that that attitude that
Poise that strength that knowledge
would be a better way of equipping us
to have a more loving world and by the
way just so you know I would say that
about the swastika I would say it about
the infamous inward I would say it about
all of the things that we're talking
about it would be better for people to
be educated
so that they are not traumatized
so do you
you know uh
the n-word should not be
removed from
um Huck Finn Adventures of Huck Finn or
from the works of James Baldwin attorney
Morrison not at all in fact it seems to
me that the the boulderization
of uh of of these great artists literary
you know work is as far as I'm concerned
highly objectionable highly
objectionable
when is it okay for a white man to say
the n-word with a hard r
well you know
um here we need to focus on the word say
is it ever okay for anyone you know
black white pink yellow I don't care red
orange is it okay for anyone to use this
word in a way
uh to put down people to terrorize
people to intimidate people answer no
you know and I'd say that black person
I've seen I mean by the way I've seen
black people use this word to try to
intimidate put down other black people
bad so I'm against it with a black
person white person doesn't matter
on the other hand on the other hand
um
imagine
um
imagine a
white person
who is
giving a lecture
on the history of American racism
a lecture on the history of American
racism
and in giving that lecture
quotes
the you know
uh
white racist politicians
who until fairly recently in American
Life use the infamous inward
so imagine a white history Professor
giving a lecture about the history of
American racism and says in 1948
this is what so and so running for the
presidency of the United States said and
then
quotes
a paragraph or two
in which the infamous inward
is featured is that bad no that's not
bad no that's not bad
sounds like a perfectly good lecture and
I'm glad that you put the infamous
inward in there so that we can see that
as recently as 1948 people who were
running for the presidency in the United
States openly use the word that does not
bother me
I'll say this too now you know somebody
says well you know nice job Kennedy but
you've you've you've you know you've
limited it to over here you've put it in
an academic setting
what about other settings it does not
bother me let's imagine somebody who's a
comedian a white comedian
who is
um
satirizing
uh word usage
let's imagine a white comedian
who uh is satirizing our current
practice
and wants to poke fun
at the way in which
um you know let's imagine you have a
black rapper
who invites people on stage and let's
suppose they invite a black person on
stage and they're perfectly happy when
the black person
full out with you know their lyrics
they invite a white person on stage
the white person is you know that
doesn't really you know sort of
mystified but it comes on stage and full
out with what the rapper says including
the infamous N word and then the black
rapper gets mad
imagine the white comedian who satirizes
that pokes fun at that
and in poking fun at that says the
infamous N word am I angry no I'm not
angry not angry at all what if in the
process of satirizing that comedian is
not very funny you say that it's a bad
joke you were not funny okay
I don't object I don't object to the use
of the infamous inward I just like you
know you're not very funny
but because there's a there's a line
when the joke is not funny it just seems
like the the comedy is used as a cover
to actually say something hateful it's
interesting thing about comedy
I feel like the funnier you are
the more you can get away with probably
and that's something to do with the the
thing we said earlier which is when you
use words that have power you should do
so with skill and competence and uh the
responsibility those words carry again
the cases that I'm most familiar with
are the cases involving uh teachers
professors you know academic and it is
said sometimes oh you know why do I
object I object sometimes people say
because
uh up you know I suspect that this
teacher just wanted to say the word and
that all of this is a cover a pretext
do I you know in my sense my sense of it
is no I don't think it's a pre-text if
you know if it's pretextual that's bad
but in my experience I have not seen
that I don't believe that that's what's
going on I agree with you on that but
sometimes I do see people that kind of
have this uh fly
flying towards the light desire to say
something
um
controversial and edgy and they don't
realize that there's a responsibility
there there's a skill they should you
shouldn't just say I mean actually when
comedians first start out they'll
sometimes go into that church or they'll
say edgy stuff that's totally not funny
and then you realize this is not
like the edgier the thing the more
skills required to really serve like uh
if you're if you're cooking as a chef a
poisonous fish there's a responsibility
on how to cook the damn thing so you
don't poison the people eating it I
would agree
um but to get back to your question
let's imagine that somebody produces a
new set
of Lenny Bruce albums yeah so Lenny
Bruce White
Lenny Bruce used the term nigger in his
sets sure did question would I want
Lenny Bruce's albums now
to be purged
of the infamous inward my response
absolutely not as another follow-on sort
of question
what you think I've seen um interviews
you've done about this particular book
the title of those interviews on YouTube
and elsewhere would use the full word
what do you think about that should I
use this word in the title
in my view the answer would be yes
again are there are people I've been on
interviews I've you know been on stage
with people who
um had a different conclusion reached
and uh you know I was I respect a
different way again uh
there there is a place for for euphemism
again it all you know it all depends I'm
not I'm not offended let's imagine let's
imagine that you posted this
and you had asterisks instead of
spelling it out would I be offended no I
wouldn't be offended uh I would prefer
the full spelling but I would understand
where you're coming from would it offend
me now I wouldn't offend me well here's
the weird calculation is which version
of the word in the title as silly as
that is
uh uh brings more love to the world hmm
it's hard and basically your answer is I
don't know
your answer is kind of you have to do it
and find out
I'm not sure again you know there's
certain questions in which there's
certain questions you're not gonna
we're not really going to no there's no
sociologist who's going to be able to
tell us that so what do we do then then
we go to
secondary
positions
and my secondary position is
I don't know one thing that I hold on to
however very strongly
is uh the virtue of openness the virtue
of transparency the virtue of freedom
and I feel as though
if I'm holding on to those things
if I'm trying to engage in a serious
conversation
in which I'm trying to make other people
understand me and I'm listening
carefully to other people
I feel at ease
I feel at ease I feel
uh this is going to eventuate in
something positive
and
you know I feel okay
you are at Harvard you're one of the
most respected people in the history of
Harvard
um that said you did write a book with
the n-word in it and you also have a lot
of opinions that challenge uh the
mainstream perspectives on race from all
sides well hopefully we'll get to talk
about some of them
um but what's your view on Harvard and
universities in general and speech yeah
did you feel pressure from any direction
on
um on first of all the title of this
book the content of the book and in
general your views on Race yeah
I am very laudatory of Harvard
University
um I've been at Harvard since uh 1984.
I
think it is a wonderful place to work
I
um there has not there I have
uh you know in in the various positions
I've taken with is in particularly with
respect to this book or all my other
books what is Harvard University done
Harvard University has done nothing but
Provide support sustenance encouragement
um you know I think that uh people get
down on Harvard University I would say
to anybody imagine the following imagine
that the ethos of Harvard University
became the governing ethos of the United
States overnight
tomorrow we would wake up in a much
better United States of America
I um you know I I have
um I've been supported by Harvard
University I think well of Harvard
University that's not to say that I
don't have criticisms of it
but um
by and large Harvard University more
than by and large overwhelmingly it has
provided me and I think it
overwhelmingly provides my colleagues
with a work setting in which they can do
their work uh without fear
and you know that's a good thing are
there certain are there certain you know
aspects of Harvard University about
which I'm critical yeah sure uh by the
way I think a few people rightfully
wrongfully would um
disagree with you that if the ethos or
Harvard University took over the country
it'd be a better place but there's a lot
of interesting ways to break that down
because Harvard is not one of these
though there's a lot of things going on
that are very interesting yes uh but one
of the things that's happening is uh the
disproportionate and kind of aggressive
growth of the administration versus uh
faculty and students I I think the power
universities should always be with the
faculty and the students that's where
the beauty is that's where the
flourishing happens and the more you
have kind of rules and bureaucracy and
all this kind of stuff the less powerful
the university is I think that uh at my
University and at many universities
that's right there's too much
bureaucracy too much regulation
uh and you know are there are there
dangers
to freedom of expression
at my University and at other
universities answer yeah there are
there are so
uh and this has really hit home for me
there was a there was a period of time
in which I was I was getting off of you
know I I had gotten I'd gotten off of
all boards I was just doing my work
forget it I'm just going to do my work
I'm not going to be on you know
associated with any organizations in the
last five years that has changed quite
dramatically I have I have gotten on
various I've associ I've reassociated
myself with various organizations mainly
organizations involving academic freedom
because
of what's going on uh at you know on
University campuses again I have been at
least thus far thus far
uh this hasn't pinched me where I live
but
um you mean in the space of ideas in the
space of ideas and the space of speech
in the face of you know teaching you
know I I haven't I haven't been pinched
but I am concerned about things so for
instance
let's imagine that you're applying for a
job you know you want to be an assistant
professor
or let's suppose that you're seeking a
promotion
uh in on many University campuses you
are asked to give a Dei statement
in which you say
um I plan to you know you know one one
of the reasons why you should hire me or
one of the reasons why you should
promote me is because I'm going to you
know Advance the you know the Dei
uh Ambitions diversity equity and
inclusion for people don't know this is
the general the set of programs uh that
most universities now have yes
that's right so you know you've got to
sort of
you know basically
what you're being asked to do
whether they say it explicitly or not
they don't say this explicitly but this
is what they're being this is what is up
what you're being asked to do is to say
I'm down with
the diversity equity and inclusion
ethos program policy campaign
and here's what I've done that shows
that I'm down with this program
and therefore I'm okay
well you know a lot of what I do would
fit very comfortably within that but
let's suppose that I didn't just suppose
I didn't like this
and by the way there's certain aspects
of the Dei you know industry that I
don't like
you mean to tell