Kind: captions
Language: en
so contempt is criticism on steroids
this is what John gottman calls sulfuric
acid for love nothing will erode a
relationship quicker than contempt
contempt is when you are looking at your
partner from a superior position so you
are eye rolling you are name calling
um there's a mockery mocking even
physical mockery imitating them
imitating their voice contempt is meant
to just take the legs out from your
partner make them feel pathetic
ridiculous
um and it can be abusive but
um most people have engaged in contempt
at some point in their relationship
lower level would be sort of the eye
rolling but that is the biggest
predictor of a split
the following is a conversation with
Shannon Curry a clinical and forensic
psychologist who conducts research
therapy and psychological evaluations
pertaining to trauma violence and
relationships she received worldwide
attention in April of last year by
giving a lengthy televised testimony on
her psychological evaluation of Amber
Heard during the Johnny Depp Amber Heard
trial I found her testimony to be an
eloquent description of complex
psychological Concepts and evaluations
procedures so I reached out for a chat
in person she was brilliant funny
thoughtful and truly kind I really
really enjoyed this conversation this is
the Lex Friedman podcast to support it
please check out our sponsors in the
description and now dear friends here's
Shannon Curry
Charles Bukowski said that love is a fog
that burns away with the first daylight
of reality I love that quote uh do you
think romantic love Fades away in this
way Makowski uh does it does it have to
fade the truth is that you have all of
these chemicals pumping through your
body you're essentially high on heroin
in the beginning of a romance and you're
going to have these rose-colored glasses
on everything your partner does is
magical and but really it's the novelty
it's just like going on a vacation
you're fully present you're just attuned
to the magic of another human being
moment to moment and then on top of that
you have you're just flooded with
dopamine so you're high on drugs and we
can't go on like that you will die if
you are using these kinds of chemicals
all the time all day long so eventually
our bodies are sort of made to dial it
down we've made it I mean we're
evolutionary beings we are doing the
same thing we did 200 000 years ago to
find a mate procreate spend enough time
with each other that we have sex with
whole bunch of times and make babies
now we've changed the rules of the game
we're living you know almost until we're
100 years old in some cases we're making
these marriage commitments that last
half a century and uh we're expecting it
to be all because of love and we're
signing these contracts based on how we
feel when we're high on these drugs so
the reality is we know based on the re
and and I'm also talking about certain
Western civilizations here because as
you know there are arranged marriages
and a lot of times those marriages if
we're looking at longevity are actually
way more satisfied than people who are
marrying for love which logically makes
sense if you're making a decision based
on a feeling that is basically based on
endorphins and dopamine and oxytocin
I wouldn't sign a contract just because
of a feeling necessary you know for 50
years whereas an arranged marriage if
you have your elders kind of deciding
for you that this partner has a bunch of
traits that you're going to appreciate
more and more over time
I think there's some wisdom there so you
don't think that feeling could be a
foundation for a 50-year relationship
well I don't think that specific feeling
you're having based on drugs is going to
be the same feeling you have 20 30 40
years down the line if you're going to
wake up and turn to your partner when
you're 70 and think oh my God I'm so
glad you're hot you are so hot yeah then
sure marry for hotness but if you've
been through life a little bit and I
think most people who are on a second
marriage know shit happens in life it is
hard you're gonna have you know maybe a
kid with special needs or your dad gets
Dementia or you get diagnosed with
cancer who are you going to want to come
home to who is going to hold you when
you are sobbing on the floor and tell
you we're going to get through it
together who's going to know the names
of your kids special ed teacher and the
process for getting a 504 plan or is it
going to be you on your own I think
those things matter but doesn't that
hotness don't those drugs kind of
solidify into a deeper appreciation of
the other person
into something you could call Beauty yes
uh they can but but isn't that the same
isn't that the same thing when you know
when you notice the beauty of another
human being aren't you aren't you high
on drugs still you're making it sound
like there's like a a brief rock star
period of going on heroin and then it's
over but like can't you be on heroin
your whole life I have some good news
that was something I think one of the
reasons I got into studying
relationships was because I wanted that
right so I'm a scientist but I also love
art and I love writing and I love
literature I wanted to know that true
love could be real but as a scientist I
am cynical I just need some data and
when so I practice the type of therapy
called the gottman method and I love
that because it tends to be well it is
one of the most evidence-based therapies
we have based on John and Julie gottman
two psychologists who have been
researching relationships for now about
50 years and this therapy happens to be
for couples they found that you
absolutely can make longevity work in a
relationship you can build you are not
just settling for companionship but you
can have passion and intimacy and
growing love and appreciation but there
is a blueprint a set of skills that we
were never given we're not taught in
school we changed the rules of the game
and we haven't learned the rules yet
and uh the government method for couples
therapy kind of gives you a few
guidelines the rules for longevity in a
relationship yeah they did a beautiful
job at taking these findings they had
through you know Decades of research
quantifying it and then codifying it
into a therapy method it's really skills
based I tell couples when they're
starting out with me that they're
essentially going to be starting a class
so what's the five to one Golden Rule
what I read is there's the kind of
balance you can achieve of
uh how many interactions you have in a
relationships that are positive versus
negative and I think that's what the
five to one means but basically there
should be a kind of an empirical
like if you just look back over over a
month how many of the interactions were
positive for the day or the day
right so the the idea of this ratio
um well it's not an idea it was a
finding it is uh research finding that
the gottman's got after looking at
thousands of couples
um and codifying these interactions that
they were observing couples that tend to
be satisfied in their relationships that
are happier they have better health Etc
they are having approximately five
positive interactions to each negative
and I want to be clear about what I'm
defining as positive and negative here
so this doesn't necessarily mean that
you're these don't need to be big
sweeping romantic gestures buying
flowers having sex these are things like
paying attention to what we call your
partner's bids we make these bids for
affection for connection all the time in
our relationships not just with our
partners but with our friends our
co-workers and we may not even know what
our style of bid is but if you see them
on a sheet you can pretty quickly
identify them bids could be wanting to
show your partner tell your partner
something and have them be proud of you
it could be wanting to go buy groceries
with your partner doing things together
hey you want to come with me it could be
telling a joke and hoping that your wife
looks up from her email on the computer
and acknowledges it if she laughs then
you've got a positive but if I don't
even look up that's a negative right so
it's not necessarily that I'm calling my
husband an asshole it's just am I
connecting with him am I meeting those
bids for connection and vice versa but
do those also give you a guide of how
you should behave
well I think what's really important is
actually asking your partner or paying
attention to what your partner's bids
are because what matters to Ty my
husband may not matter to you for
instance I mean Ty's bar is so low with
me I thank God what defines the positive
interaction right like he just wants me
once become if if he wants a water when
I get up to get myself one just be a
basic decent considerate person is all
he asks of me whereas mine might be sort
of like stay up later with me watch a
show
um go to bed at the same time as me or
um know about the people in my life that
sort of a thing I should highlight this
and I hope hopefully it's okay that you
were running a little bit late and you
sent me this text which is which people
do really rarely and there's a subtle
act of kindness within that text so the
the you the text you sent was that
um I just decreased the amount of stress
in your life or something like this by
saying it's cool but that means that you
were you're you're signaling that you
were stressed
because you care enough to be there on
time and that was like that made me feel
really special I was like oh you know
people don't know people don't often
don't always do that because that puts
you also that makes you vulnerable
vulnerable and I actually thought that
after I sent it but I feel that most of
the day any interaction like oh God I
just expose myself but absolutely I was
excited to be here and I didn't want you
to think that I didn't care
I think being a therapist has shown me
that it really it's so lucky to be in
that position because you meet people
that you would have thought are cooler
than you or smarter than you or just
somehow impervious to life and you
realize that we are all in it together
we all want to be cared about and liked
we all would want to be liked as a
baseline I some people will say they
don't care but everybody does it's human
and I have gotten much better being a
therapist much more comfortable showing
caring showing love and genuineness and
vulnerability than I think I ever would
have been otherwise and that kind of
vulnerability is what's required to do a
positive interaction in a relationship I
think so and and people have different
levels of comfort right so
um but as long as it's working for both
partners and typically you have to
communicate to figure out what your
partner what makes your partner feel
cared about however you might be working
for instance with an older couple and I
have a couple that's perfectly happy and
they sort of have a system it works for
them if there's some sort of a rupture
if they get in some sort of a
disagreement they don't talk it out she
might go to the store run an errand
doing do a little shopping he'll work in
the wood shop and then they'll come back
and there is a repair attempt though but
it's maybe she'll say hey do you want to
have dinner or come you know I made your
favorite dinner and or he'll say hey I
recorded your favorite show you want to
watch it tonight so they don't need to
process it but there is an understanding
between them that we're still in this
together we care about each other and
there's a repair attempt
most people need to be able to process
it verbally and talk about what happened
not all so for most people if there's a
conflict you should talk about and
resolve it and repair it versus like
just put it behind you I I don't want to
say should I guess it depends on the
couple yeah everybody processes emotions
differently everybody handles emotional
expression differently I mean I have
couples where I have one person in the
partnership who has autism and the other
doesn't and so they're obviously going
to have different ways of communicating
or processing what happened we all have
different perspectives it really depends
on what makes a person feel like it's
been repaired what makes a person feel
understood does that need to be verbal
or in the case of that older couple I
have where they know they understand one
another because there's a gentleness
toward one another after
what are some common ways relationships
fail that you've observed and all the
therapy you've done well the governments
identified what they call the Four
Horsemen of the Apocalypse so okay
I mean I could just keep it simple and
go off their research so they're those
are four different behaviors that they
identify in couples or that you can
identify in couples that are really
highly predictive of a divorce some more
than others but I'll start with the
lower ones
so one thing that we by the way actually
we all do these things these would be in
that five to one ratio you'd want to
stay away from some of these these are
the ones so as they pile up now that
ratio is going to get imbalanced and
then you are headed for a split okay so
the first is criticism
so criticism is when we have a complaint
complaints are normal but instead of
owning our own problems our own feelings
we assume that our perspective is com
the only valid accurate perspective and
so we uh take it upon ourselves to tell
our partner what is wrong with them okay
so there there's essentially no real
belief that they might have a valid
perspective too so
this could look like you never helped me
out in that with the house or even
um you're so lazy like can't I just get
you for five seconds to help with the
kids or something like that
um and then what happens is Horsemen
number two defensiveness so uh not
everybody is defensive just because they
were criticized some people just are
more prone to defensiveness than others
none of us really like admitting our
faults so it's pretty natural
but defensiveness is essentially making
excuses or Worse turning it around on
your partner
not accepting any responsibility and
definitely not validating what they're
feeling
now if you get criticized enough or if
you get really flooded that flooding is
what happens when our heart rate goes up
kind of around 100 beats per minute our
frontal lobe shuts down that's our
thoughtful brain our logical brain and
our reptilian kind of hindbrain takes
over our thinking
and we just go into fight or flight in a
white week we just want to annihilate
our partner instead instead of say
anything that would be helpful to the
relationship
so if you're getting flooded you could
do a couple things you could get super
critical you could get contemptuous
which I'll talk about in a second it's
the last Horseman or you do the third
Horseman which is stonewalling and in
their research the gottman's found that
men are actually more likely to
Stonewall I also am someone who
stonewalls but it's where you just sort
of Disconnect from the conversation you
shut down you turn away you can
physically even turn away kind of arms
cross but you're just you're shut off
and stonewalling happens usually because
you get flooded you feel like you can't
win you don't know what to do to make
the situation better it feels pretty
hopeless and talking feels unproductive
so you can see how in a typical
heterosexual relationship the gender
Dynamic we know that women tend to use
criticism more often because they're the
ones that typically raise issues
verbally and then if men are feeling
more criticized that they tend to
Stonewall and it becomes this vicious
cycle of then more criticism but the
criticism is really just a plea to be
loved and get your partner to show you
they care and then the man tends to feel
like he can't do anything right this
isn't even productive if I say anything
I'm just going to make it worse and they
don't have any real you haven't given
them a specific need a solution
something they can do to shine for you
so they turn away and where's the uh
contempt all right so contempt is
criticism on steroids this is what John
gottman calls sulfuric acid for love
nothing will erode a relationship
quicker than contempt contempt is when
you are looking at your partner from a
superior position so you are eye rolling
you are name calling
um there's a mockery mocking even
physical mockery imitating them
imitating their voice contempt is meant
to just take the legs out from your
partner make them feel pathetic
ridiculous
um and it can be abusive but
um most people have engaged in contempt
at some point in their relationship
lower level would be sort of the eye
rolling but that is the biggest
predictor of a split if you allow
yourself to think yeah that mockery or
contempt just a little bit
it's like this weird slippery slope sure
is and the opposite is true
where I just look at a person think wow
isn't that the most like wonderful
creature I've ever seen in my life like
just think that and you notice the
little details about who they are and so
I just observe them the way you observe
like a weird like peacock at a zoo or
something like that attention is
powerful isn't it yeah and it changes it
change you start to notice beautiful
things and then let
uh the things that annoy you yes like
just you're exactly right you're
touching on some really important things
so in relationships we actually know
that wearing rose-colored glasses is
important it's healthy we need it and
it's a choice you're baking right so
there is a saying that uh getting
married is just choosing one person's
faults over another and the reality is
that we may become infatuated with
somebody else as human beings love is an
emotion attraction is emotion an emotion
and as you go through life even if
you're in a committed relationship you
might see Beauty in another and that
person who is novel might seem
attractive to you but if you can
remember that they too have a set of
problems that you would be marrying it
really helps you to
see the beauty in your partner again and
recognize all of their incredible
strengths and all the ways we meld with
the person and become our own family
almost become I mean our lives
intertwine and we grow those oak trees
so she by the way this is a line I read
somewhere that uh when you're wearing
rose-colored glasses all the Red Flags
looks just like Flags
I think it's a good it's a good line uh
so you so you think that humans are
fundamentally all of us have
fundamentally flawed or have flaws
they're unique flaws and they're
basically relationships is just the way
to um
they figure out how the two can fit
together right and we're different so no
matter what we're going to have
differences we are raised differently
than our partner we have different
stories different experiences that
shaped our value systems especially when
it comes to the big ones like parenting
love money
um these principles that are based in
our history
we're going to have differences so are
is this a set of differences you can
accept from somebody and work with do
the benefits and their strengths
um do they make it worth it or is it are
they deal breaker differences uh tricky
question but uh in the in the couples
you've worked with is there
like the feminine and the masculine is
there different dynamics that come into
play like dominant submissive is there
is it like a dance where it just changes
from minute to minute is there is there
dynamics that you observe that both
limit and enable
uh successful relationships yes so there
are if we're talking about masculine
feminine
then now also art we could get into are
we talking about actual gender
identified gender or are we just talking
about these traits because like I said
ice Stonewall which is typically in
couples something that is more
associated with straight men
um
but that's my style of coping when I get
overwhelmed uh that is not tied to any
sort of success or non-success of a
relationship but what we do know is that
gay couples so lesbians and gay men tend
to be gentler with one another when they
are having conflict discussions I so
that's actually been identified in the
research and it's something I've
witnessed and it's just fascinating so
with my Straight couples I'll be going
through one of these if we're processing
a conflict that occurred I'll be going
through the sheet and it's very very
structured because you don't want
couples doing more damage when they're
there with you you want them practicing
skills that protect them from criticism
that protect them from contempt
and when I'm working with a straight
couple I am like a referee or sometimes
I'll relate it to being like a ski coach
and keeping people on a bunny Hill and
you tell them you let them make like two
turns and then you stop them and you
meet up again because you don't want
them to Veer off with straight couples
you are doing very short turns before
you need to kind of intervene and
rescaffold
I had a lesbian couple recently and they
were so lovely with each other they
skipped like seven steps to the advanced
final portion where they were already
coming up with Solutions and suggesting
things that they might be able to do
differently next time to make it better
for their partner they were asking each
other questions about how their partner
felt with no agenda no attempt to sort
of be like well do you think you're
feeling that way because which straight
couples do all the time you just see
this humility and openness it's lovely
yeah it's lovely but I wonder if uh
maybe watching too many Hollywood films
is some of the drama some of the tension
is required for a passionate lifelong
romance no it's not and that's great
news
so we actually know yes that The Closer
You Feel to your partner so if I mean
you've talked a lot about beauty and
you can ignite that beauty that interest
right so when you're falling in love
it's usually that a person is sort of a
mystery to you and you're uncovering
these layers that you find really
appealing
there are continual layers that you can
uncover with your partner over time I
don't think we realize that I think we
get complacent and we think we've had
every conversation imaginable what what
else are they going to do to surprise me
but we don't know the questions to be
asking
one of my favorite questions
um
I like turning these conversations kind
of into a quiz because I get bored
easily so you rather than just asking an
open-ended question
um there's a way you can do this with
your partner where it's sort of like the
dating game like what is my as of yet
fondest but unrealized life dream and
see if your partner knows you might not
even know they might know you better
than you know yourself that in and of
itself is a beautiful reminder
of the relationship and how special it
is but then also
um
when they say it or when you realize or
have to think critically like what is my
husband's as of yet unrealized but
fondest life dream and then you can talk
about it
you just I don't know you just kind of
transcend into this new area and you
feel tight again you feel like you feel
close well you really
talk to each other like I I've recorded
and without
intending to publish uh podcasts like
this with microphones with with friends
with people close to me because it's
literally that you get to ask questions
like as if it's an interview right and
we don't do that exactly it the way
you're talking with me yeah sit down
with your partner have that conversation
like years later right show interest
actually be curious see see what they
surprise you with and actually when you
learn is you don't know the answers to
most these questions 100
exactly like like what what's your
favorite movie from the 80s you might
not know the answer to that it's like
those first date questions or whatever
or what's your favorite movie this year
and why and why yeah it's fascinating it
is it's hard to do that because I think
that you'll probably be offended at
first how little the other person knows
so I think you have to work through that
you know I actually find that there's
this rekindling because partners are
shocked that their partner does know so
much about them especially if they've
been feeling dissatisfied or
disconnected it's a reminder of all the
good that's still there
what uh I know we said some of those
things but what's on the opposite side
what's the key to a successful
relationship what's like what are the
things you see
time and time again that do you
designate that they're in a good path
yeah there's a real Attunement honestly
just it's
um sort of an us against the world
feeling nobody neither partner is going
to talk shit on them the other uh
there's a loyalty they handle each other
in the relationship with care
you can tell that they've worked some
things I to me
it usually indicates that these are some
people who figured they've had to work
some things out they know that this is
delicate they know
um you know that you're on thin ice you
take a wrong step and you can be back in
a tough place in your relationship or
you treat it with care and it can be
amazing
so they're careful with one another they
give each other compliments they are
considerate so you'll see
um you know he'll bring the car around
for her because it's raining or
um
she'll bring him home some takeout you
know she'll order for him to at the
restaurant there's just they keep each
other in each other's minds but that us
against the world thing
that definitely is there like 100 you've
seen that right yeah you've seen it and
you've seen it like um I like it when
couples have been together for a long
time and when one is talking the other
one looks at them if you don't do that
that's not a bad sound but it's a good
sign when you do that yes because uh and
I think it's actually a really good
um exercise to do because I because I
enjoy when I see in others so it's it's
a
it's a way to show that you don't take
him for granted and then you still find
them like this mysterious wonderful
creature to observe like I think too
often we have that with our parents we
have that with um people close to us you
think yeah I've heard what they're about
to say I know I know you can complete
that sentence take them for granted and
then if you if you just look at them and
say wow this is the most brilliant
person
I've ever seen in my life most I can't
you know you just appreciate every war
that comes out of them and look at them
in that way you actually begin to
believe it yeah and you actually begin
to see the beauty of what they're saying
you are exactly right it's a
self-fulfilling prophecy and caring yeah
yeah it's very caring so that's I mean
that's I think the beauty of what the
gottman research showed us taught us
provided us is that we can do these
things that become cyclic and just keep
growing this relationship making it
stronger more powerful more loving you
would never want to cut it down well we
you were talking about the sheet for
conflict processing what are we talking
about so like a couple will come and say
like there was this conflict and you put
on the table and then what does it mean
to process it so in that gottman method
of therapy there are all these different
I mean hundreds of different
interventions and based on what the
issue is in that session you can decide
the most appropriate intervention and so
this is a specific intervention for if
it is a conflict that occurred and there
are different types of conflicts so this
would be more like an incident it's not
a Perpetual recurring problem
um which has actually a different
intervention where you kind of look at
the underlying belief systems values and
there's the goal is not to solve that
problem the goal in that situation is to
actually just get a better understanding
of each other and your positions and
just you stop seeing your partner as the
adverse area and you start seeing them
as a person who makes sense
but if there's been a specific event a
specific fight that's just sort of
situational
but it's left Bad Blood things were said
or you didn't feel understood this
intervention I was talking about is one
that you would go through a series of
steps where first you identify the
emotions that you were feeling
then you describe play by play your
movie your perspective if your partner
we're looking through your eyes this is
what they heard saw thought then they
saw this then they heard this so you're
not saying yeah then you came in were
yelling and acting crazy you're saying
so then I saw you come in
I heard you say and I thought to myself
well great now everything's ruined right
so you're showing them your movie then
they have to summarize the movie for you
and then vice versa
and then there's this um Step where each
person validates some part that they can
understand like based on what you saw
heard I can't actually understand how
you felt one of those feelings that you
said then my favorite part is you rewind
sort of the movie
from that day back through into
childhood and you land on a time a
memory when you felt a similar set of
feelings
and this is like the most beautiful part
ever because let's say the feeling was I
felt misunderstood I felt
um misjudged uncared about unloved like
you didn't even like me and I'll say
when did you feel that way you know land
on a time and they're like my whole
childhood you know my parents were my
mom was always accusing me of doing
things I wasn't doing and it would set
me up and my dad would come home he'd
hear about it he would just believe her
and then you have like a partner
climbing up on the couch like give their
partner a hug while they're sharing the
story it's beautiful and it changes the
way you interact in future disagreements
so you have those moments yeah you can't
unlearn now you know this about your
partner you know what they're sensitive
to
yeah and again you kind of see the the
Beauty and the flaws then right
it all makes sense yeah it all kind of
makes sense yeah so you maybe were in
this dumpster dive in your head of how
your partner sucks and all the things
that are wrong with them and it's so
hopeless and then you get this light
shining through and you realize oh my
god of course they would be sensitive to
that and suddenly it's not about all the
ways your partner is wrong and proving
that they're wrong it's just how can I
in the future make sure they do not feel
this again I would never want this
person I love to misunderstand me and
feel so unloved what are you uh the
early days of that what do you think
about the whole dating
modern dating process how do you find a
partner
that you can um
stay with for the rest of your life so
we are absolutely doing it wrong and um
but there is a way you can do it and I
am such a fan of the psychologist Thai
tashiro I adore him he is brilliant he's
lovely he's also very humble
just a wonderful salt of the earth guy
I'm gonna tell you a very true story
here okay let's go I was in a bad
relationship and I was
um at a psychology conference with my
partner at the time
um we were both at this conference and
we were sitting in a lecture hall uh
there for Tai tashiro to do his talk
that day on his phenomenal research on
relationship satisfaction and dating
um and I was sitting next to him and
we'd been you know it was just always
unpleasant on trips there were always
fights we're sitting there and Thai
tashiro starts talking about his
research and how he found that most
people are you know signing this
agreement getting married and doing it
based on the love endorphins and really
only about 35 percent of anybody who's
married is actually happy
um and he said so then
you know and exactly but here's what I
love about Tai tashiro is he didn't stop
there he wanted to know what those
people who were happy
um had in common
and then same thing with the people who
were unhappy he found a couple
fascinating patterns
so the couples who were happy
tended to rate their Partners higher in
three different traits and I love
talking about this because if you are
somebody who can follow instructions you
can find this I mean very easily those
three traits tend to be
conscientiousness
okay and I love the word
conscientiousness because it's not just
kindness kindness is a good way to think
of it but
you can be kind and kind of be a
pushover and that's not attractive
conscientiousness is smart attentive
it's somebody who reads into a text
message and thinks wow she was making
herself very vulnerable there
that's conscientiousness I like how you
just do an accomplishment it's true it's
a certain intelligence awareness and
Attunement
and then on top of that
conscientiousness is motivated so you
can't be on your ass all day and be
conscientious because then you can't
meet the needs that you anticipate about
the person so conscientious is that guy
who drives the car around in the
rainstorm so his wife's hair doesn't get
met it's my husband who checks my alarm
for me every morning because he knows
I'm terrible at time management and he
makes sure that I set it a reasonable
amount of time before my first meeting
and not let 20 minutes I think I need
and then he'll come wake me up with a
cup of coffee that is Ultimate
conscientiousness
and it is true I mean I will tell you as
somebody who's with a conscientious
partner Your Love increases over time as
you continue to feel grateful and
admiring of that person
the second one
you want somebody who is low in a Big
Five personality trait called
neuroticism
um you want somebody emotionally stable
in a way now this doesn't mean you can't
have somebody who doesn't get the blues
or struggle with mental health issues
trust me Ty is with somebody who you
know I get I'm all over the place but
you want somebody who kind of owns their
shit and isn't going to just
be emotionally unstable all over you
know you want somebody who is generally
happy and has some life satisfaction
um having a partner who has serious not
mental health issues but unmitigated
emotional distress and instability is
really hard on the partner and it's
really hard on other family members
including children if you have children
so it's just a predictor of Happiness so
there's a certain threshold of chaos
that if you exceed it it's going to be
destructive to a long-term relationship
a perfect description chaos
not the mystery chaos you love as your
with your little Pro poet brain yeah I'm
talking more like just somebody who
there's just no peace there's no peace
there's a problem with everything
everything becomes more difficult going
to a party is a chore a you don't know
if they're gonna have a meltdown at the
party or how many complaints about your
friends or
um everything is a problem so you want
somebody who has just some resiliency I
think is a good term for it some
flexibility some spice is okay but not
too much like right flexibility
resiliency easy going yeah Okay the
third is
um really interesting I think so he
found that
having a partner with sort of moderate
adventurousness not high adventurousness
actually leads to greater greater
satisfaction and the reason for that is
high adventurousness equals novelty
seeking shiny new things and so if
you're in a monogamous relationship if
that is what's important to you it's
going to be very hard for a partner who
is novelty seeking to be faithful
um so that will cause a lot of pain but
also
um novelty seeking people tend to always
have new projects new interesting things
and so their attention is drawn away
from the relationship and so you can
just feel pretty neglected or
unimportant
by a little bit but you want a little
bit of adventurousness so you want your
person to be uh sort of self-motivated
uh individuated have their own interests
not completely dependent on you but also
I mean low adventurousness is not a bad
thing ultimately what you're getting
with low to moderate adventurousness is
that rock that feeling of stability that
home and I made some references earlier
like when you're 70 and you turn to your
partner do you want them to be hot or
you know for instance my dad has
dementia right now and my husband turned
to me on the plane we were all coming
back from a trip and where we really saw
how severe it's getting
and he just turned to me he knew how
much pain I was in even though I might
wasn't showing it and he said I want you
to know that if it comes to a point
where we need to take care of your dad
he needs to live with us you don't even
need to ask it is I am 100 on board and
will help and uh those are the things
that matter that home feeling and
technically that's a trait that's
usually that's sort of a
my husband caring so much about family
and home and taking care of things that
matter those are things that tend to be
associated with that low to moderate
adventurousness somebody who really
cares about simple things and family I
wonder if those things those those three
things that something you can work on
you know Consciousness you can probably
you can
proactively observe yourself
and you know do it more regularly right
neuroticism might be the hardest one
probably I think so well I mean I
I was pretty neurotic in my early 20s
and when you wake up to it maybe you if
you're self-aware about it maybe you'll
be able to control it yeah I think
self-awareness is key I think I think
that's why I love therapy so much I
think life is about growth and our
potential for growth and to make our own
lives better to make the lives of others
better to serve others to heal all of us
through this Collective healing and I
think we're all capable of growth and
the same with adventurousness you can
I'm somebody that's pretty pretty low on
adventure but I keep throwing myself out
there just for the extra adventures and
you can grow in that way yes and I am
high in adventurousness and I was not
really ready to settle down I was
married earlier in my 20s but I would
say that I am much more prepared to be
in a committed long-term relationship
now in my 40s than I was when I was
younger but in that same way for me I
like to connect myself to high adventure
people so that it like brings me brings
me out it's like uh they're a horse and
I'm get to ride them and that's the
thing so high adventure people are
attractive they're interesting exciting
but it can be a world of heartbreak
because you know you're only under that
Spotlight for a few minutes and then
they're on to the next shiny thing yeah
but heartbreak is part of love
but that might be the drug thing that
you were talking about speaking of
adventurousness what about sex it's
important sex playing a successful
relationship well it okay so I'm saying
it's important but I want to qualify
that everybody has different levels of
sex that are satisfying to them sex can
definitely Bond you to your partner
orgasms are amazing they de-stress us
they're healthy they I mean you can have
an orgasm and have a lower level of
stress for 48 hours I think that's
pretty incredible
um
if you have I mean just that kind of
physical contact with your partner even
a 20 second hug with your partner has
similar benefits to an orgasm you're
going to have a lower stress level
you're going to feel immediately close
to your partner you're going to get a
rush of oxytocin which is going to make
you feel happier more grounded
throughout the day so that's a 20 second
hug you extrapolate that to sex and
things are going to be great
so it's just physiological but I wonder
there's probably metrics about how often
you have sex how that correlates to
successful relationships and so on well
there are but it really has more to do
it's sort of like remember I was talking
about processing conflict and what
matters is
do people feel like it's been resolved
do they feel like there's been a repair
not necessarily how they go about doing
it same with sex do does each partner
feel sexually satisfied
um so that could be once a month for one
couple it could be five times a week for
another couple it could be never for
other couples truly
um I mean so sex has a ton of benefits
but its absence isn't necessarily
detrimental I guess would be the
qualifier depending on who you are and I
know couples they use sex to as part of
the conflict resolution process it's
huge
not just both all that's true
um what do you think about infidelity
um you know what's the cause of
infidelity why do men and women cheat
it's different for everybody but I I
mean even earlier I was saying with
adventurousness like if monogamy is
something you're doing
uh
I I I've seen in my own practice I've
seen the entire range of couples who are
open about having sexual relationships
with other people
um and fine with it couples who want to
be fine with it but find out they're not
um uh couples who aren't just couples
couples with multiple people you know
multiple romantic relationships
um I've had couples where Affairs are
are tolerated and not talked about
um they're not enjoyed but they are not
the type of betrayal that will destroy
the relationship sort of a understanding
and keep it out of my face and then also
we won't talk about it so in the fair
that happened without getting permission
first and as long as you don't talk
about it it's not going to do a damage
to the relationship right but we can't
even talk about it like that right so
nobody's going to admit that the fair is
happening
um there can't be any evidence of it
it's sort of a just look the other way
type of a situation but uh the partner
who is not having the affair right they
typically know
um they certainly know that their
partner is capable of that
um they just kind of know but they don't
want it in their face it would become a
problem if it was in their face
um
as long as certain needs are met and
everything else is okay at home it's
just one of those things where don't ask
don't tell but that that's an
interesting point because I've I had a
bunch of arguments with people I tend to
hang out with especially in the tech
sector uh people who really value like
honesty and radical honesty and I keep
arguing with people about this because
to me
it's not that simple okay that that's an
example right there uh that Honesty can
be really destructive like honesty is
also a really complicated thing to get
to the bottom of because what is really
honest yes and you know like how do I
look in this dress like
there's a million ways yeah a lot it can
be accessible in my mind if I'm in a bad
place or my partner and I am like if
Taya and I haven't been connected lately
my honesty of what I actually think
about him would be horrifically damaging
and completely unfounded also and but
and it can change on a dime but that's
also not actual honesty to the big
picture of how you feel about him I have
interacted with a few folks who talk
about their previous sexual partners for
example on the numbers of sexual
partners they've had and they feel like
that's
that that kind of honesty is actually
empowering enriching to the relationship
because all they've experienced sexual
experiences you've had in the past make
you a better sexual partner better
partner in in the present and to me from
the culture I've come from that's like
anti-romantic yep yep like I you kind of
throw the past kind of away right you
don't really talk about it it's kind of
there in this amorphous shape but it's
almost as if you've met together for the
first time and this is a beautiful new
thing like your creatures that have
woken up from a long Slumber right
you're starting Anew it's starting in
new right so and then you want some
mystery there right I think the mystery
and like you have to figure that out
about each other so I'm not exactly sure
that honesty is always for everyone and
then also is honesty harmful or helpful
at certain points too yeah I.E so you're
talking about sort of like disclosing
prior sexual history I thought you were
going to go to so if you've had an
affair do you hold could you keep that
under your head oh yeah that's a really
tough question or are you obligated to
disclose it it's a really it is a very
tough question very tough well what do
you think is the I have my own personal
beliefs I also then like I have my
therapeutic beliefs I think frankly
and this is just me as a human being not
Shannon the psychologist
um I believe that if you have fucked up
and and I again I'm coming from a
framework right now of monogamy
um if you are committed to somebody you
love and you have fucked up you don't
get to shed your guilt onto them
you need to carry that burden it's not
necessarily I think it's simplistic and
unsophisticated to be like but then
you're being dishonest I think it's
actually selfish to unload it on
somebody else and give them the trauma
of imagining what we do know about
infidelity is that it can create
an actual post-traumatic stress like
experience for the Betrayed partner
where they are having intrusive thoughts
about it
um those are unwanted thoughts and it's
uncontrolled it comes in it multiple
times a day they'll have depressed mood
they'll have nightmares about it their
entire sense of security safety
self-esteem gets shattered because of
your actions
I think it's uh kind of yeah moralistic
and naive to think well they deserve to
know the truth if you actually know the
harm that that sort of betrayal does
um
especially if you truly mean to stop it
right so if it is if it was a one and
done or if it happened and you've
stopped it and you do not intend to do
it again frankly I think you live with
that burden you live with that
discomfort thank you for saying that
because I I totally agree but it's it's
like logically
it's doesn't quite make sense to give
that advice but psychologically makes
complete sense because you really are
destroying another person's mind uh
their faith in in love in relationships
their their their trust everything and
then you're imprisoning them to be stuck
with you for months or years if you're
trying to work through it through that
torture so you should be carrying that
burden and working through it I think
why why do you say that that's your
personal opinion University or
therapeutic like what well I think
everybody has different values right so
I think that's a value-based decision
because to me the hierarchy is kindness
and do no like do no further harm yeah
um over that's in that case over truth
right
um whereas other people you know my
husband for instance he is like truth
above all else you don't get to decide
what I know or you know you don't get to
decide whether or not I can handle that
knowledge so he would even see my
determination of you know that I should
carry the burden sort of arrogant like
well why don't you let your partner
decide whether or not they you know why
do you get to choose I don't know I I
think there's value to both arguments I
absolutely see this point is I
absolutely see his point and his I think
is like a very humble sort of option
like
you don't get to choose what's better
you you just need to give them the
information and they can choose but I
think I don't know I think it's kinder
to hold I think it's going to cause your
conscience more discomfort to hold it
and I think there's sort of a cleansing
we do when we share that information I
think in real life most people disclose
it because they can't stand the secret
anymore themselves that to me is a
selfish act I have a unemployment
applications and so on and just with
friends would ask people what do you
care more about truth or loyalty just to
get to see how they think about those
different questions
and uh yeah the
I was surprised how much variance there
is on that and also conceptually I bet
I conceptually I don't think we actually
know where we stand until we're faced
with a situation like that yeah I think
people a lot of people especially when
they're younger say especially if
they're kind of intellectual they'll say
truth Above All Else
a second all right you're exactly right
all right
until you get to hear a truth that truly
breaks you truly hurts you or causes
suffering to you and then you realize or
a truth you give to somebody else will
cause them suffering right and they get
to see that suffering destroy their life
and maybe your relationship and so on
and then you're like oh yeah like should
I sit my dad down right now and be like
Dad your dementia like you have dementia
again today I'm going to tell you Dad
you're not making sense no we're good
it's not going to be discussed we're
going to make them comfortable and I
mean yeah I think it truth can be a
little bit of a platitude Sometimes some
of those complexities are all the things
involved in in the challenges of what
makes a relationship work right uh what
do you think about open relationships in
general
my world view is such that I see the
beauty and value in monogamous
relationships just for me but I don't
I'm also open to
the possibility of what worked for other
people have you done any kind of work
with the people in open relationships as
clients or research as clients oh yeah
yeah
is there some interesting differences in
between uh open relationships and
monogamous relationships you know I
think that may have been actually what
was behind my question about
um the satisfaction with them being on
the extremes my hypothesis essentially
was is it because they if you are really
all and you've worked out some of the
Kinks I think I've seen
um
the couples who are trying it out like
for the first time it tends to get a
little Haywire there's some excitement
in the beginning everybody's really
excited about it
um I think the philosophy makes sense to
a lot of people uh the science of it
makes sense to a lot of people and but
we have been raised in a society that is
pretty monogamous so there isn't a lot
of scaffolding around it
um and and there's a lot of inner
conflict I think for people to go away
from the values that they've been taught
since they were kids
um and so jealousy arises a lot and uh
and also I it's very difficult to