Kind: captions
Language: en
if Scientology was just
getting auditing
when you wanted
about the subjects you wanted and you
could take it or leave it that would be
fine
it's it's the fact that it's part and
parcel to this entire organization and
this entire experience
that has as a part of that experience
taking everything from you demanding
everything from you controlling who you
can speak with
controlling who you can have
relationships with who you have to erase
from your life this is where and it's
hard to it's hard to place one pinpoint
on this is where Scientology goes wrong
it's really hard to do that because the
good parts of Scientology and the bad
parts of Scientology
are all just Scientology
the following is a conversation with
Aaron Smith 11 a former Scientologist
raised in Scientology and have worked in
an organization full-time for many years
as a staff member and a sea org member
including the job of training
Scientology Auditors today he educates
the public about scientology on his
YouTube channel called growing up in
Scientology
this is Alex Friedman podcast to support
it please check out our sponsors in the
description and now dear friends here's
Aaron Smith Levin
let's do a full overview of Scientology
its ideas how it operates how it wields
its power and influence and let's start
at the very Basics what is Scientology
Scientology is a belief system
created by allren Hubbard
that does fundamentally believe that we
are all Immortal Spiritual Beings
called phasins
that we have
native god-like potential
that there is nothing more powerful in
the universe than a thetan like so
Godlike is you know quite literal here
and that through various
decisions thetans have made they have
fallen away from their native Godlike
power
to uh fallen down to a state where most
theins aren't even aware that they are
thetans aren't even aware that they ever
have lived before or have these powers
and that things are now in a state where
they're trapped in bodies trapped here
on Earth
uh trapped in this prison of a physical
Universe trapped on this prison of a
planet
and that only Scientology can restore
ethane to its native state are these
multiple beings like is there one Satan
inside of me that's trapped in this
prison well the thing would be you
the thing would be me the thetan is you
but um presumably Limited in some
fundamental way so this statement that
is me is is limited so there's like
eight billion Satan's on the planet
there's one primary thing in animating
each body
later in Scientology you learn there's
actually like tens of thousands or
hundreds of thousands of like sick
unconscious half dead faith in stuck to
you that are now an additional cause of
problems for you sure but fundamentally
at the lower levels
the non-confidential levels there's just
one thing in per body
well I mean it's an interesting idea I
just would like to kind of explore
the philosophy of that so there's a
being that's all powerful that's
immortal
and its projectionist manifestation on
this Earth is
fundamentally Limited
and you're trying to uh the process of
Scientology is the process of letting go
of those limitations
you know that's an interesting idea I
mean a lot of religions have this kind
of idea that there's a not just
religions but like we have the capacity
as human beings to do to achieve
greatness in all kinds of ways yeah and
that's the question we have with our
cognitive abilities we start with the
embryo and build up and into this
organism and like this world of
opportunities before us what are we
capable of and the idea that we're
capable of almost anything is a really
powerful one and there's a lot of
religions there's a lot of philosophies
there's a lot of advice self-help that
kind of explores those ideas and so in
it seems like with Scientology this the
application of these religious
philosophy means that there's we're
limited and we have to break through
those limitations and there's a process
to break through those limitations that
would be correct so what can make it
challenging to
adequately and completely describe
Scientology in the beginning is what
scientologists believe actually changes
as they progress further into or further
up in Scientology
so
um the explanation is I've given it is
pretty consistent with what you would
get at the lowest levels right
urethane I'm a thetan everyone's a
thetan
and we have a reactive mind
I'll run Hubbard would say the reactive
mind is a collection of uh these
recordings mental recordings of any
moments of pain and unconsciousness
you've ever had in your life it's like
the subconscious mind
uh it's always recording in moments of
pain and unconsciousness and that these
are called these recordings are Ron
Hubbard called them engrams now when L
Ron Hubbard first wrote Dianetics in
1950 this was before Scientology came
along a couple years later right so in
1950 when he wrote Dianetics
it wasn't a spiritual Endeavor it was
supposed to be a mental health a science
of Mental Health
so
as of that time the earliest engram you
could have was the incident of birth
being born was an engram
and technically in Dianetics they said
you could have prenatal n grams like
when you're still in the womb but there
was no concept of past lives as of 1950
version of Dianetics right
and so the idea there was that
uh the reactive mind is essentially a
stimulus response mechanism
uh created through Evolution millions of
years ago to protect the individual from
things that would harm them in other
words things that would bring about pain
and unconsciousness so you have these
recordings of things that hurt you
created pain and unconsciousness and in
present time these things will react
upon you in a way to cause you to avoid
similar things
reacting upon you in a subconscious
unconscious way so the reactive mind
protects you
from the trauma that is inside your
subconscious mind yes and the idea is
we've now as human beings evolve to a
state where it no longer serves us
beneficially it only serves us
negatively
this was Hubbard's Theory and he says
you can get rid of these engrams by you
know basically recalling them and going
over them again and again using
Dianetics auditing therapy and if you
get back to the moment of birth and
erase the earliest engram all the other
subsequent engrams on the Chain would
vanish oh nice so there's a change
earlier similar earlier similar earlier
similar early similar okay
so that gives you a pretty good
understanding of how elrond Hubbard
thought of the mind because that carries
on has applicability later on in
Scientology I mean that's a pretty
powerful model of the mind I mean Freud
had similar conceptions that a lot of
our traumas are grounded in
sort of uh
poor formulation of sexuality or
imperfect formulation of sexuality no
childhood something like this and then
we're trying to figure out the puzzle
whatever we formed in early childhood
right and it's similar similar kind of
it is similar that's probably what
Hubbard took it from
um in the early days of Dianetics before
he decided Psychiatry was evil uh he
actually credited Sigmund Freud with
some of the shoulders he was standing on
in writing Dianetics so the so he still
admired Psychiatry at that time so
that's an interesting moment of
Dianetics so what else you mentioned
Dynex auditing was there too so if we
just before Scientology what what are
the ideas that formed what we know as
Dianetics as I've just described that is
the fundamental at least that is pretty
much the nuts and bolts of dinetics was
it applied was it applied often oh yeah
no that's what diet next in the early
days was all about was just auditing
auditing is the process of the
one-on-one counseling recall a moment of
pain and unconsciousness run through the
engram over and over and over again find
something earlier similar that is
dianetics auditing one of the main
things that changed with Scientology is
that birth or prenatal ingrams were no
longer the earliest engrams on the Chain
yeah the idea is you have to get the
earliest engram on the chain for the
later ones to blow which is a race
and so but all of a sudden now with the
uh addition of an immortal spiritual
being into the equation well now the
earliest incident could be trillions of
years ago in other galaxies and
universes other universes so before the
origin of this universe yes is there a
model of physics integrated in any of
this no
the model is you have the physical
universe
and then above that you have the Theta
universe so we use the word thing
earlier so in Scientology let's use word
Theta
I don't know theta's just basically
thetan power Satan's collectively
so Hubbard would say you have the Theta
Universe which is senior to the physical
universe and creates the physical
universe and remember I said I said
native god-like potentials so we're not
talking about the God who created the
Earth we're just like scientologists
don't believe in a God but we'll get
into that later
uh we're talking about CR just creating
universes like just think like Matrix
like just when I say creating a universe
essentially just creating different
things simulations
but it sounds like a little bit more
like the ideas of Plato which is there's
these platonic forms there's abstract
forms that are
bigger more General than our particular
reality here and those forms are used to
construct the reality well I grew up in
a call so I'm not familiar with the
works of Plato
[Laughter]
you can't use that as an excuse for
everything
I would like to you know non-jokingly
yeah Steel Man the case because a lot of
philosophies a lot of religions a lot
even scientific endeavors
are a little bit full of uncertainty you
can call it bullshit but they're you're
on on sturdy ground because we're
surrounded by mystery and you have to
take these ideas
somewhat seriously and see where those
ideas go wrong this happens with
Communism this happens with capitalism
these ideas sound beautiful in their
ideal forms and then they somehow go
wrong and some go more wrong than others
and so I don't think sort of it's easy
to
sort of caricature and make fun of the
ideas I think if we take them seriously
you'll start to understand like when
you're in it it was serious uh it can be
very convincing it's you know the the
devil is going to be a charismatic
person he's not going to be a caricature
of ridiculous person so that that helps
us understand which ideas
uh will sound appealing but will become
dangerous I totally agree in fact it's
one of the
thrusts uh I have on my channel is
wanting to talk about scientology in a
way that would actually resonate with
current scientologists not just resonate
with former scientologists I want people
who are still in to be able to hear how
I talk about it and go wow he's being
really fair and really accurate he's not
just a hater you know what I mean if you
look at the you know let's take one of
the worst places on Earth is North Korea
uh you have Kim Jong-un and the reality
is there's a lot of citizens of that
nation that deeply love the leader
because they've grew up in that way and
you I mean through fear through all
kinds of manipulation through propaganda
and so on they're not allowed to love
members of their own family they're not
allowed to have romantic love they're
only allowed to have love for the leader
and to reach those people you have to
empathize with the fact that in their
eyes in some sense this is a great man
this is a god a Messianic figure you
can't just make fun of the
Ridiculousness of the situation that
this pudgy person Waltzing around
creating propaganda like how is this a
funny haircut with a funny haircut like
it's so easy and Hitler too to make fun
of to make a caricature of the person
but this is a real person a real person
that influenced the minds of millions of
people in the case of Hitler uh you know
tens of millions of people and and
created a huge amount of suffering not
because of
um the caricature version but because he
was a charismatic leader he was somebody
that people deeply deeply loved and that
just over time I mean with the the abuse
of any kind of ideology this this
happens over and over and so yeah it's
it's interesting because Scientology is
so close to the
uh to to the core of what is America
because so many Americans are involved
with it so it's interesting to study the
the Beauty and the power of the idea is
that underlie it and where things go
wrong yeah
and I'll just say it's interesting to
know you would never get a
representative of the Church of
Scientology to sit down and have a
conversation with you and even be as
fair and accurate about scientology as
I'm going to be which is which is
noteworthy do you honestly deeply
believe that's the case there's not
going to be a high level official that
would sit down for a conversation
no I disagree with you I hope you're
right because I think that given the
current dynamics of what's Happening
I think in order to say from their
perspective in order to save the the
Church of Scientology they have to uh be
transparent and authentic basically
steal men their case but better you
would think so
well we'll talk about the other ways you
could do that which is the manipulation
to propaganda through control media and
all that kind of stuff they paint
themselves into a corner of not being
able to send a representative out into
the world to speak honestly about it
because you're literally not allowed to
so when faced you know if you're just
sitting down with an entertainment
journalist a representative might be
able to fudge their way through an
interview but sitting down for a long
Format Interview with someone who is
going to ask them about Xenu and the
body fatens and Leah Remini and Lisa
McPherson that's a no-go zone so so I'm
representing why it will never happen
but shit I would I would tune in for
that interview I mean I hope you do get
someone you don't think David miscavage
was the dolphin interview
I would love to be wrong you know in
general journalists in these kinds of
situations can be
um
can attack
in a way that doesn't empathize and
doesn't come from a place of deep
knowledge and understanding and I think
it's possible to have serious
conversations with people like that in
an empathetic way but it's also in a
challenging way I think there's a huge
amount of trust required and obviously
for us a very secretive organization the
amount of trust yes might be too much
required anyone over there if they've
done their homework knows you're going
to be as Fair as anyone in the world is
going to be
and yet they're simply things they're
not allowed to talk about and they're
not even allowed to say I'm not allowed
to talk about it so that's a fundamental
part of the Church of Scientology is the
secrecy yeah
so that's what you're trained as you go
up through the ranks as secrecy Secrets
it's not even a matter of training it's
that there's an entire the entire upper
half of scientology's bridge is simply
confidential I mean and I never even did
those levels when I was in Scientology I
didn't learn what scientologists
actually believe on those upper levels
until after I get out of Scientology and
I was freaking born and raised in it
let's go there let's go to a personal
story so you've spent 30 years in
Scientology yeah I was four years old
when my mom got in and then about seven
years ago I got out yeah and you're on
what YouTube channel now and you're an
educator so I was four years old when my
mom got introduced to Scientology and
she got in really fast really quick
um so but I was 12 years old when I was
taken out of school and started
officially full-time working for
Scientology okay so
um in various capacities I worked for
them from the ages of 12 to the age of
26. yeah okay so and then I was 34 when
I officially parted ways with
Scientology
which was really more them officially
parting ways with me but we can get into
all that later that's just kind of how
Scientology does it and what do you do
now in terms of Scientology so now I run
growing up in Scientology the YouTube
channel but what I primarily do is I
help run an organization that helps
people who are escaping from Scientology
I'm the vice president of the aftermath
Foundation
and we created the foundation after the
television show Leah Remini Scientology
in the aftermath
and there was such an outpouring of
support from non-scientologists all over
the world
what can we do to help people leave
Scientology that we decided to create a
foundation and it's been incredibly
successful we've helped people escape
from all regions and echelons of
Scientology we we've accomplished what
we've accomplished is far beyond what we
actually envisioned would be possible
it's been a huge success so we'll talk
about the the negative aspect the abuses
of power but let's just explore the
ideas a little bit more
um so the the public facing three
fundamental truths of
Scientology maybe correct me if I'm
wrong a man is an immortal spiritual
being like with said with Satan's his
experience extends well beyond a single
lifetime so infinite memory backwards
his capabilities are unlimited even if
not presently realized
the capabilities are unlimited yeah so
that when I say god-like I really just
mean you know Thanos like Unlimited
scientologists don't believe in a God so
when I say God like I just mean the most
powerful entity the Creator the the
prime mover unmoved except we are all
that you know a thing in definition in
Scientology thing has no position in
space or time ethane does not actually
exist in the physical Universe it might
choose to locate itself in the physical
Universe right and then forget that it
made that decision and then sort of get
caught and trapped in the physical
universe but that once the thing is uh
restored to its native powers
um everything you see here in the
physical universe is just a thing
playing a game
like later we are in a simulation right
now of something so like physics doesn't
have to make sense when we're talking
about it this way like technically
urethane imatha and we're here but
because this could also all just be
another thing's game so Satan's all the
way down yeah it's just Dayton's
everywhere things it all comes down to
the thing is there an idea of a God
because I've read there's a kind of
there is a sense of a Supreme Being
because that basically the thetan that's
at the core at the bottom of it all yes
not not defined undefined correct
Scientology has this concept of the
Dynamics all right Hubbard breaks life
into eight different Dynamics and the a
dynamic meaning a Thrust towards
survival so he would say you know first
Dynamic is you yourself second Dynamic
is your family third Dynamic is any
other group that you're a part of other
than your family fourth Dynamic is all
humankind uh the fifth Dynamic is plant
and animal life all non-human life uh
sixth Dynamic is the physical world
seventh Dynamic is sort of like
spirituality collectively
and the eighth Dynamic L Ron Hubbard
says Scientology doesn't deal with the
eighth Dynamic but we recognize that
people have this idea of a Supreme Being
and so Scientology says you can call the
eighth Dynamic the Supreme Being Dynamic
but we call it Infinity just the allness
of everything without having to Define
it and then they sort of do a little
dance and they're like Scientology the
purpose of Scientology is to get you to
the point where you have your own
understandings or realizations about the
nature of the eighth Dynamic we don't
tell you what you have to believe about
that and technically speaking that is
true technically speaking that is true
there's no point in Scientology where
they sit you down and say you're now
required to revoke your belief in a
Supreme Being it's just that everything
in Scientology is is inconsistent with a
belief in the Supreme Being
you can still find scientologists who
through cognitive dissonance will tell
you they believe in a supreme being
mostly they're lying to you how's this
inconsistent with the Supreme Being
because like Satan's because Satan's
have created everything not God
okay so things creative they they're
also creative for us they're not just
the force that runs everything right but
can't those be just the fingertips of a
god sure the only way you could
reconcile a Supreme Being
is if you say a single Supreme Being
created
all Theta
yeah like the spiritual Big Bang yep but
that's not what most people think when
they say when they talk about God
they're talking about a creator of the
physical Universe yes there's no Theta
right
I mean even as I've described
Scientology so far none of what I've
said is something I even subject to
riddle cool this is pretty Common Sense
stuff actually I mean if you believe in
spirituality or Spirits at all there's
nothing I've described so far that's
crazy yeah you know believing in past
lives isn't particularly unique or
special right
um the fact that Scientology does this
little dance of pretending to believe in
a God I mean it's even like a PR line
Scientology Representatives will tell
you you can be a Christian and be a
Scientologist well let me tell you what
Christians don't believe in past lives
and lives on other galaxies and planets
and universes they but and Scientology
knows that Scientology knows you can't
be a Christian and be a Scientologist
but they will say that it's just an
example of sort of the fundamental baked
in dishonesty because it's so important
to Scientology on their organizational
level to have text exempt status
I wonder how do you do you know the
process of what it takes to prove that
some an organization is a religion while
going through that process with the IRS
for the second time by the way
Scientology actually had tax exemption
in the early days and the IRS pulled it
and then they got it back in 1993. while
going through that process again the IRS
actually took issue with the fact that
Scientology was claiming you could be a
Scientologist and a member of another
religion the IRS actually said pump the
brakes there yeah if you're going to say
that
we're going to say you're not a religion
yeah and they actually in put in writing
to the IRS no no no no that's not what
we meant that's not what we meant
we meant in the beginning you can be
both but eventually you just have to be
a Scientologist so you mentioned the
eight
the eight Dynamics but you also
mentioned survival so that seems to be a
core principle that that human existence
is about survival can you elaborate what
is meant by survival are we talking
about the survival of the human species
survival of the individual humans
survival of the manifestation of Satan's
in human form what what do we what's
survival so it would be all of that
because survival is the the dominant
Force across all the Dynamics
that I mean L Ron Hubbard it was either
Dianetics or science of survival he
he says he discovered the principle upon
which all life exists and that is all
life no matter what it is trying to do
are you ready Alex it's trying to
survive
that's pretty powerful that's pretty
powerful that's it no I I got to tell
you I gotta you might get me back in no
I'm not I'm not trying to get you back
in I'm trying to take you uh get you to
take seriously the power of the ideas
behind Scientology because I think those
ideas are not bad ideas uh they resonate
with a lot of ideas throughout
philosophy through our religions
throughout the history of human
civilization
the interesting aspect is how it goes
wrong but here's the thing like here's
the thing it is consistent with prior
efforts or studies it's just that L Ron
Hubbard said this was a watershed
breakthrough that was being discovered
for the first time that's kind of what
I'm mocking really yeah but you can mock
Nietzsche for saying man is Will To
Power you can claim to be the first
person to ever say it well Nietzsche
he's had a bit of an ego so like and
he's full of contradictions but I'm
pretty sure
the the imply thing is that he was the
first first to say it yeah there's a lot
of scientists there's a one of the
people I really admire is Stephen
Wolfram who uh wrote a a book called A
New Kind of science that explores uh
complex systems and cellular automata
and these mathematical systems that have
been explored before but he boldly kind
of defined I am presenting to you a
whole new way to look at the world and
if you just set a little bit of the ego
behind that aside there's actually
beautiful ideas in there they have of
course been done before and explored
before but sometimes people declare the
coolest that's the only thing I'm really
mocking is yes this discovery that life
is trying to survive is greater than the
discovery of fire okay I mean it gets a
little silly but that's fine we can
agree that the fact that life is trying
to survive has meaning and is Meaningful
and can be is valuable and it's true I
mean life is trying to survive also
there's a non-trivial definition of what
is life here so this idea of a thing the
thing that permeates
through lifetimes yeah through people
there's some some fabric that is bigger
than the individual biological bags of
meat that's a philosophically
interesting idea of course if it's not
grounded in a little bit more uh a
physical reality then it becomes a
little to Google and the way I'll run
Hubbard and Scientology defines survival
is very much intertwined with how they
Define ethics ethics anything you know
to be ethical is pro survival
to be unethical is counter survival but
we were talking about just the concept
of the Dynamics like what does survival
refer to and it actually does refer to
all of them but just keep in mind when
it comes to the seventh Dynamic thetans
collectively
um involved in here's the idea that a
thing cannot die there's no such thing
as killing a thing nathane can only can
only survive
and so
um anyway uh this concept of the
Dynamics is one of the most fundamental
and important Concepts in Scientology
but but because I mentioned that it also
gets tied up with ethics and this
probably speaks to what you're just
talking about is you can have the ideas
and the concepts and you can have how do
they go wrong
because they hold
that Scientology applying Scientology
getting people into Scientology is the
key to basically saving every spiritual
being in existence
when you're analyzing what is ethical it
becomes whatever is good for Scientology
becomes by definition ethical because
anything that's good for Scientology
which is a third Dynamic is inherently
good for all the Dynamics so that's
where you get
the ends justifying the means to do any
anything possible and use any means
necessary to afford the aims of
Scientology that's kind of where a lot
of uh Soviet implementation of Communism
went wrong is the ends justify the means
the equality the justice for the workers
uh if we have to kill murder in prison
censor yeah in in the name of that then
it's it's for the greater good in the
long term to achieve the the ideal of
Communism in some respects Scientology
created a near-perfect communist
experiment in its sea organization
what is it from everyone according to
their ability to reach according to
their need or something like that
Scientology C organization is damn near
a perfect communist experiment
coming from someone who doesn't
necessarily know the perfect communist
experiment really is because I'm not
grew up in a cult Lex you can't use it
as an excuse It's a funny tagline to use
in my videos I like it but like it is
interesting that an organization that is
so hyper capitalist and so money hungry
and is known to be very wealthy at its
core is run by these group of seog
members that live a communist lifestyle
we're gonna jump around let's go what is
sea org what is C organization what is
this organization the C organization is
the most dedicated version the most
dedicated brand of scientologists so
there's three like echelons of
scientologists there's public who just
live normal lives in the real world and
they pay to do Scientology courses in
auditing then there's staff members who
also live in the Real Worlds uh but work
on two and a half year contracts or
five-year contracts at their local
Scientology organization and then once
they finish their contract there their
debt is paid or whatever and then
there's the sea org members these are
the guys who signed the billion year
contracts they don't have lives in the
outside world they don't own property
they live in Scientology provided
housing they eat Scientology they eat
Scientology run cafeterias is there an
actual contract that says a billion
years it's symbolic but yes okay like no
it's not a legally enforceable contract
they haven't succeeded in enforcing it
in any subsequent lifetimes yet marriage
contracts should be like that a billion
years not until death to us part but a
billion years it really makes it very
concrete of what you're signing up for
yeah those are the billion year guys you
hear a lot about the billionaire
contract the billion year contract
that's the sea org and and uh all of
Scientology Management International
Management middle management Continental
Management and even some lower level
service orgs are one composed 100 of
cork members
you're not allowed to marry or date
someone who's not in the sea org uh
you're also not allowed to have children
with anybody outside yoga in general
you're not allowed to have children sea
org members are not allowed to have
children unless they leave the sea Arc
if you they're you're expected to uh
have an abortion and stay in the sea org
because it's the greatest good for
Scientology if you accidentally get
pregnant interesting because it
distracts from the focus of the work
yeah what about sexual relations only
once married but that's why people get
married after like three days you're
like hey you you look you look all right
let's get married are you allowed to
have divorce yeah you get divorced a lot
in the sea org I've known people who get
married divorced three times by like by
the age of 25. oh wow because in this
year getting married is practically like
dating right also unless you're married
you're living in dorms with a bunch of
other people so in order to get your own
room you also have to get married so
there's many benefits oh wow okay so uh
you mentioned communism in which way
because there is there a hierarchy
inside sea org is there a redistribution
of uh influence position money power and
sexy org everyone in this New York makes
50 a week everybody except David
miscavige but right and and some uh some
posts might have a cash bonus incentive
structure but fundamentally their pay is
50 a week so so even the head of a big
Scientology organization
is getting 50 bucks a week
our celebrities also part of seaworg or
not usually so this is really the
management layer
so what's the idea behind fifty dollars
a week is that basically live a humble
life they don't have to give you
anything at all it's just Oh you mean
like what's the idea behind not paying
yeah basically not paying
everything you need is already being
provided for you you're not here for the
money
you're working all the time anyway it's
not like you don't have days off I mean
you're you're working all the time
there's there's not it's there's no
concept of the weekends there's no oh
thank God it's Friday Friday's just
another day and how are the position the
tasks the jobs uh allocated within the
sea org what do you mean like like what
kind of tasks you're doing what kind of
stuff you're doing it's very similar to
just any other
um business as far as you can have your
Human Resources you can have your sales
you can have your accounting your
operations your quality control it's
just that in Scientology your operations
is delivering courses and auditing so
your operations and your quality control
were most of the activity occurs as far
as delivering Scientology
and then you've got your you'd call it
business development but that's just
bringing in new members right
so the the the the function of
scientology's organization is very
uh very comparable to a normal business
in the normal world
so let's talk about the products of this
business auditing and courses so what's
auditing so auditing is so we described
earlier Dianetics auditing
Scientology auditing is uh very similar
to that so at first glance it it looks
like Psychotherapy a kind of therapy all
Scientology auditing is going to look
like that it's one-on-one talk therapy
uh you're in a a room by yourselves no
distraction no noise one-on-one yeah
like this yeah but and in Scientology
they have what's called an e-meter who
writes almost all auditing employs the
use of any meter what's an e-meter so an
e-meter is a device that just measures
the resistance to a small electrical
flow except scientologists believe that
this emitter can be used to Simply
direct the progress of an auditing
session to determine whether
uh the auditing has reached a good
satisfactory
conclusion
uh all auditing sessions have to end on
a satisfactory conclusion like that's
the job of the auditor there's you don't
just it's not like sorry the session
sucked see you next week it's not like
that every auditing session has to end
um on a positive note and if it doesn't
uh there's corrections to be made so
um the e-meter what does it look like
visually like oh you can pull it up
pull up Mark eight e-meter Mark eight so
there's a few dials you know there's a
basic information about time and
duration I'm presuming then a dial that
just goes zero to something okay so
let's say that the meter's in front of
me and you're the one holding the cans
I'm holding the cancel your enter you're
doing the auditing of me yeah okay okay
I'm holding the cans no literally in the
beginning of an auditing session when
you're calibrating the sensitivity
sensitivity of the emitter you do like a
can squeeze so I go squeeze the cans
please okay so I'm just like squeezing
yeah and I'm just changing the
sensitivity because when you squeeze the
cans I want to get about a one-third of
a dial drop on the needle the idea is
you don't want if the needle's too
sensitive then every time you shift
around in your chair the needle is going
to bounce all over the place so you're
trying to set the sensitivity to this
thing and that's all the the knob there
on the bottom to the left that's the
sensitivity knob
and that determines just uh how much how
sensitive the needle is going to be and
the the bigger dial is called the tone
arm and that is changing uh I want to
say voltage or current but I'm not
intending I'm going to get one of those
words that's wrong right but it is a
real device it's a real device so you
can actually calibrate uh to probably
you know get an outcome that you want
yeah so here's even how just how a
Scientology auditor believes it works
you're holding the cans there's a tiny
little battery in that emitter that's
sending you're completing the circuit
when you pick up the cans right so you
got a little thing going there and that
needle will respond to your physical
movement but that's not what we want we
want you to sit the hell still so that
we can read this thing when I'm asking
you questions
okay so you're sitting there still very
still as still as you can comfortable
right and I'm gonna go is there
something you're withholding from me and
what I'm looking for is right when I say
at the end of me I'm looking for the
needle to dip to the right having a
needle even if it's kind of random
can really be like um a catalyst for a
conversation that's what it's used for
except it's an enforced conversation so
I'll give you a really good example of
this so
you're holding the cans say is there
anything you're withholding from me
and I get an instant read
and I go is there anything you're
worthholding for me you're gonna go I
don't think so and I don't see the
needle no you don't see the needle okay
I go well what did you think of when I
asked you the question now if you've
already had a lot of auditing you know
how this goes it means I got an instant
read and we're not going to move on
until this question gets resolved okay
so you're gonna go I don't know what I
was thinking of and then I'm gonna I'll
be like you know take a look and I'll
help you out here I'll try to steer you
okay so I'm looking to get roughly the
same read while you're thinking about
whatever I mean what was that what was
that right there and you can start
digging to what you can start I just
want an answer to the question okay and
I can go to memory yeah and you can give
me any answer you want there's no way
for me to know if you're giving me the
right answer but I want you to give me
something yeah if you say you can't give
me anything I'm going to keep using the
emitter until you give me something yeah
okay so let's say you give me something
I'm gonna get all the details about that
and until like time place form an event
I want to know everything that happened
I want to know all the details and by
the way I'm writing all this down so I'm
taking notes of everything you're
telling me that it's a bad thing that
you did that you haven't told me about
okay so I'm keeping notes
when you represent to me that you've
told me everything there is to tell I'm
looking for the needle to give like a
smooth back and forth motion like this
and Scientology calls that a floating
needle that means in Scientology land
we're done with that
so now I might go back to check the
question okay good I'll check the
question again is there anything you're
withholding from me oh if I get another
read we got to go through the process
again okay if you tell me I've told you
everything and I don't get a floating
needle I've got to go okay is there an
earlier similar
thing have you basically done an earlier
similar thing is there an earlier
similar time you haven't told someone
something or is there an earlier similar
thing that you did the thing that you
just told me
we're going to keep going earlier
similar earlier similar earlier similar
until I get a floating needle and that's
where I'm explaining it this way you can
see how no matter what the specific
auditing session happens to be about
there's still the potential in any
auditing session that you're going into
past lives yeah just because you have to
go earlier similar until you get a
floating needle okay now here's how
scientologists think the emitter
actually works meaning why does the
emitter work so we talked before about
these um these mental pictures right
these recordings okay well we spoke
about engrams just recordings of pain
and unconsciousness
well Scientology would hold the the bad
recordings aren't the only recordings
that you have those are just the
recordings in your reactive mind you
also have an analytical mind which is
just your conscious memory conscious
recording of everything from present
time to the last 76 trillion years yeah
and Hubbard would say that these
memories are actually a perfectly
detailed recording and these does like
56 perceptions or something and that
it's perfect
and you can access that information you
just have trouble doing so okay so he
says that these recordings these mental
pictures have actual electrical charge
and Mass
now you asked before is there any actual
physics in this I don't know where are
you supposed to store the pictures of
your last 76 trillion years that have
charge in Mass
I don't see it but Hubbard says it's
there okay
so he says that these things have mass
and when you recall them or put
attention on them
you create an electrical flow
which maybe through magnetic fields or
whatever impinges upon the electrical
flow of the emitter and it shows up as a
read on the needle that's how
Scientology that's how scientologists
believe that's why the needle reads now
cynics would say the needle only reads
on Palm sweat and movement well I know
that's not true
right I can't tell you everything the
needle does read on but I can tell you
it's not just moving your hands in
sweaty hands it does correlate to
thoughts probably some way somehow
because if it didn't correlate to
thoughts that this process would be way
way too inefficient because it would it
would be 200 there there's going to be a
bunch of people who are just not you're
not going to get the what is it called
the floating needle like no matter what
I can't explain to you how you get a
floating needle but it sure as hell
isn't hand sweat and it sure as hell
isn't squeezing the cans right so you
eventually most people will get to the
floating needle and some you get
floating needles there's like a feed
there probably is a feedback mechanism
that you will each person realizes how
their mind and body yeah because you
want a resolution right it's probably
you want your needle to float for both
people yes and it's probably a great
experience when you're like yes it's a
gamified feeling right well when you're
training on how to use the e-meter there
are drills where you practice generating
with your mind various needle reactions
so you know there is a drill where you
sit there and you consciously try to
create a floating needle by recalling
happy thoughts go to your happy place
and at the end of every auditing session
you actually have to go to an a third
party sit down in front of an email and
verify that your needle is floating nice
every single auditing session not only
has to end on a floating needle but then
you have to go to someone else and have
the floating needle verified any
Scientologist who's uh a seasoned
recipient of auditing knows how to make
their needle float at The Examiner
got to be honest though this process
again sorry to be sort of going there
but
um
it feels like this is a very uh rigorous
talk therapy session is there good
aspects to this sure a lot of people
find auditing very helpful I mean I've
heard some describe it as quite
thoroughly addictive me personally I
never enjoyed getting auditing that's
probably more a function of having been
raised in it and it was never something
I wanted to do something that was forced
on me as a child you know and also I was
never I don't like talking about private
secret stuff like you kind of you kind
of have to want to be an open book sure
to to honestly and thoroughly
participate in an auditing session
because there's not necessarily A belief
that this is going to be private there's
no expectation of privacy but there's no
expectation that your stuff's going to
be leaked for blackmail either I mean
you kind of you trust the people in the
organization
even despite rumors and stuff like that
but the rumors are coming from people
that are lying to you essentially
if you're a Scientologist and you're
participating in participating in an
auditing session you know that anyone in
the organization is has the ability to
know the stuff that you talk it's not
like oh my God I'm only telling my
auditor because I think no one's ever
going to know you know that people know
but you also trust the organization how
quickly does it go to past memories for
people who are seasoned like they
actually like going past life
yeah I I hated it I would make sure I
was really good at making my needle
float I didn't want to have some auditor
because I never believed in the past
life memories yeah so I didn't want to
be in that impassable you know reach an
impasse in an auditing session where I
was being asked for something I couldn't
provide because I knew this auditing
session has to end on a good point but
scientologists enjoy for the most part
going they call it whole track whole
track is past life going whole track
your time track they call it the time
track is your whole memory but whole
track refers to anything past life okay
so going whole track or deep hole track
with high reality meaning it's not like
oh I have a fuzzy memory and I'm not
sure if it's real like your real season
scientologists are like oh yeah I was on
this planet oh this time circling this
before that I was eating for breakfast
fascinating before the origin of life on
Earth so so billions of years ago on a
distant planet what you were eating for
breakfast or other universes I wonder if
that's a nice shortcut
to sneak up to actual trauma that
happened to you as a therapy device I
just so putting Scientology aside I just
I'm thinking about as a technique for
therapy discussing basically you know
some people have trauma and one of the
things you do with therapy is like bring
the trauma to the surface that's the
stuff that happened to your childhood
maybe it's a more convenient thing to do
to kind of map that indirectly onto a
fictitious telling of what happened to
you
something like that trauma on a distant
planet elsewhere it could be it could be
a nice way to sneak up to it yeah and it
goes both flows there not just things
that have happened to you but things
that you've done so you know you could
be being asked for you know you'd be
going back to I wiped out a civilization
I don't know this race on this planet oh
wow oh yeah
but so you can actually take on a whole
new guilt oh yeah so I I okay all right
you might actually take on a lot more
guilt and let go of
because if you feel like that
self-critical aspect of the brain
boy because I'm my brain is really
self-critical so I could see myself
manufacturing if I was forced to over
time some kind of story where I did
genocide a whole population of like
Pluto or something at a different
distant is somewhere in Alpha Centauri
yeah so I mean and now I walk around
with that guilt wait am I actually a
horrible person so imagine though if you
had not only are you looking at you know
if someone's being self-critical trying
to identify destructive patterns of
behavior in your present life but what
if you really internalize the fact that
I haven't only been this way
for 40 years I've been this way for 40
trillion years yeah
but Scientology would argue
that as a Satan you're inherently good
all things are basically good so the the
goal of the auditing procedure there
would be essentially to figure out find
the moment find what it was that caused
you
to make that shift as a being
to dramatize you know evil intentions
and stuff like that so even if you're
going whole track
looking at all the horrible things
you've done the goal is to find like
well what happened just prior to that
what was like the prior confusion and
what what did you misunderstand just
before that and whatnot so the goal is
basically so scientologists after a lot
of auditing are also convinced that they
have fixed the reason
for any non-optimum
conduct and underlying this is a belief
that at the core we're all good yes
there's a lot of really powerful ideas
in Scientology which is so interesting
that it goes wrong yeah okay uh what
about the training you mentioned the
training of the auditor that's really
interesting so what's how lengthy is
that process it can take years
I mean one of that question I want to
ask is are people in Sea org like as an
auditor do you believe everything how
much
um is there a crisis of faith that
Creeps in in religion you have a crisis
of faith when you start to wonder like
does God even exist so in this case how
often do you start to doubt
that some of the core beliefs of
Scientology are false
Scientology would say that Scientology
is not about beliefs it's about a
application of the techniques of
Scientology auditing to improve
someone's spiritual awareness and
ability so the belief level of
Scientology is pretty much the stuff
we've already discussed the
effectiveness of the auditing process so
the effectiveness of the auditing
process is one of the things Hubbard
says is that standard Tech standard
Scientology they call it the tech the
technology of how to deliver auditing
standard Tech Works 100 of the time when
applied 100 correctly well that's kind
of unfalsifiable right yeah because
anytime it doesn't work it wasn't
applied correctly exactly
that's a nice little uh escape hatch to
pull on having a crisis of faith it
didn't work well
then obviously it wasn't applied
correctly that's where quality control
comes in their job is to nitpick and you
can always find one thing that wasn't
done correctly communism
uh didn't work because it wasn't
implemented correctly it's the it's
always it's always it's always an escape
hatch with ideologies that's right sure
that's right I would probably argue that
Auditors
um are not in a position of having many
crisis of Faith because actually they're
usually seeing people for the most part
improve in some ways through the process
of auditing now auditing can create like
a state somewhat of a euphoric State you
feel great you're just blown out of your
head you know you feel on top of the
world I've had that in some of my
auditing as an auditor sorry no as a
person receiving auditing okay and so my
point is as an auditor doing a lot of
auditing you know you're going to have
someone in front of you called the the
pre-clear is the person in front of you
who's getting the auditing called the PC
or the pre-clear
they see over and over and over again
these PCS having these sort of euphoric
States and floating needles and I feel
great and fantastic oh thanks you saved
my life like
I've always said if Scientology if
people didn't find Scientology helpful
nobody would ever stay in Scientology
right
and so Auditors are pretty much the ones
doing the heavy lifting of what it even
means to be a Scientologist those guys
aren't the ones that you end up
um having crisis of faith I mean doing
Scientology auditing it doesn't require
that you believe just have faith that
you believe something you just have to
go through these motions and
scientologists one of the reasons
scientologists think this is all
scientific is because it's like I don't
care if you believe why this works I
care how you feel at the end of an
auditing session and empirically
speaking
like anecdotal data is it actually seems
to improve people's lives within the
context so taking the outside world out
of it within this particular
organization
you're actually measurably seeing
Improvement yes is that is that some
degree real because like if you look at
a book like Animal Farm
where the pigs start to rule the other
animals and over time the life of the
animals gets worse and worse and worse
while the pigs keep saying that's
actually getting better and better and
better again communism same thing the
the rationing is getting worse and worse
and worse less and less food but just
constant reporting uh that there's more
and more food where we're winning
hashtag I would argue that what you've
just described it could be
an identical description of what it
feels like and what it means to go up
scientology's bridge to total freedom
you are reinforcing to yourself that
everything's getting better and better
and better and and you'd be like
you don't spend time with your family
anymore yeah you're broke even though
you make a lot of money you're always
stressed you're you're at the beck and
call of these people who seem to run
your run your lives like how a
Scientologist feels about their own life
is
um it's very interesting to compare that
to how that person's life looks to their
non-scientology family members I get
contacted by a lot of people who've
never been in Scientology but like I got
a family member who's who's really deep
and I just can you help me understand
some things why is this person's life
like this why is this person's life like
this
so I I don't want to say that
scientologists do not actually I don't
want to say oh it's all on their heads
they think they're being helped but
they're really not that doesn't feel
honest you know but it's this thing
where if Scientology was just
getting auditing
when you wanted
about the subjects you wanted and you
could take it or leave it that would be
fine
it's it's the fact that it's part and
parcel to this entire organization and
this entire experience
that has as a part of that experience
taking everything from you demanding
everything from you controlling who you
can speak with
controlling who you can have
relationships with who you have to erase
from your life this is where and it's
hard to it's hard to place one pinpoint
on this is where Scientology goes wrong
it's really hard to do that because the
good parts of Scientology and the bad
parts of Scientology
are all just Scientology yeah so there's
definition was bad for you and it's
probably in the beginning is bad for you
um this almost just sounds like a
template of a toxic relationship you
know there's a bunch of stuff in this
world that's just not good for you so
the uh the authority the authoritarian
says like I'm just protecting you by
blocking you off from those negative
things and they're probably they are
probably negative things but then this
like uh this Freedom starts closing in
to where you can't no longer speak
freely think freely act freely and
there's some I mean that's why sort of
power corrupts and absolute power
corrupts absolutely that person doing
the controlling
actually starts getting that like
dopamine Rush of the controller that's
exciting and it's a vicious negative
cycle so you start out as it it starts
out good because you're trying to do
good for the person
um but then it somehow goes to shit yeah
so what what uh what are the aspects
that just that are often controlled
about
about a person who's in Psychology
especially sea work well
information control access to the
internet access to any information
critical of Scientology is some internet
access load
public Scientologist has no restrictions
to their access to the internet they're
just not allowed to read anything
critical of Scientology
oh okay so there's self they're supposed
to self-control what they read or not
and what's the explanation
is is it always assumed that anything
critical Scientology is a lie
they really push this thing that uh
unless you've been in a Scientology
organization yourself or unless you've
actually been a Scientologist You
couldn't possibly know the truth about
scientology if you're only getting
information from people who aren't
members or former members then you
couldn't possibly be getting the correct
information now they they don't realize
the math there doesn't make sense if you
can find out the true information by
becoming and being a Scientologist then
that means you can get the correct
information from a former Scientologist
because they traveled that path and they
got the correct information so they
still create this on they try to create
this unfalsifiable Loop where unless you
are personally doing it you don't have
correct information and you go what
about the people who did personally do
it
got the correct information
left
and are now sharing that with others
well no those are lies well okay so so
just anything you don't like is a lie
then you know yeah pretty much that's
kind of how that's kind of how it works
so what about the control of negative
information on the internet uh what like
the actual operations I I I've you know
preparing I should admit I don't know
too much about scientology I was doing a
bunch of reading and the Wikipedia page
on Scientology interestingly enough is
not that negative about scientology
um so like it made me ask
you know you have to be a little bit
careful how you consume stuff from
Wikipedia you have to consider because
money can buy things there there's
there's certain special interests and so
on but like it made me wonder like like
with a lot of controversial topics what
is true and where do I look uh where do
I go for truth so like how much sort of
deliberate action is there to control
what is true on the internet by
Scientology well these days they've
pretty much I think thrown in the towel
but they have the Scientology middle
management
was editing Wikipedia so often from IP
addresses that were traced back to the
Scientology buildings that uh Wikipedia
locked them out from any IP addresses
associated with Scientology from being
able to edit it it's like the
Scientology was so infatuated with
trying to control the information and in
the early days of the internet they had
a certain degree of success with that
they just it's just hopeless these days
it's the scale the scale is not there
but actually I'm very surprised how uh
bot Farms how effective they can be at a
very small scale if you just pay 100
people just spread narratives but the
the the the bad stuff the the reason
that's effective is you can kind of
create conspiracy theories
that create chaos and nobody knows what
is true that bot Farms can do but
actually really nicely control a
narrative is hard so to create chaos
it's easier to do to to basically say
like
um you know do PR control is very hard
yeah so especially on the internet
especially when the critical eye
is there the internet can smell bullshit
which is one of the really really
powerful things about the internet and I
gotta tell you it's one of the reasons I
do my YouTube channel it's one of the
reasons I decided to upload every day
I've uploaded every day for the last six
months I just wanted there to be a
Non-Stop flow
of information of any kind in any
variety as long as it's fair and
balanced intelligent interesting that
scientologists who stumble upon the
internet will go oh look someone's
talking about my thing let's see what
they got going on
and and I I know this guy the fact that
Scientology crushes so much information
but before before YouTube before like I
have the only like big Scientology
Channel and that only got big in the
last six months okay so before that
there were channels there was things but
it's almost like it took a lot of uh
like people felt like it took a lot of
bravery and courage to like say
something on the Internet about
scientology and so people would pop up
and there weren't very many voices and I
was like I want this to be prolific I
want I want to be prolific I want to
have 30 or 40 other channels being
prolific so that Scientology couldn't
possibly successfully control the
narrative about it have you been
personally attacked aaronsmithlevin.com
is a website created by the Church of
Scientology have you seen that no what
kind of content is on there oh Aaron's
an abusive father and a horrible husband
and the worst staff member we've ever
had and
um oh I openly talk about it because I
think the fact that Scientology even
does things like that is fucking
hilarious yeah and uh anything they try
to do to me the way I think about it is
you know you're just giving me an
opportunity to turn the mirror back on
you and show everyone how horrible you
are does it stick no so you find that
there is ineffective it's completely
ineffective they're so over the top and
um well I'll tell you how the website
even came into being so I was on the
first season of Leah Remini Scientology
in the aftermath
every single person who participated in
that show got a website
it's just that everyone else's website
is like who is markheadly.com who is
Mike render.com well I bought who is
aaronsmithlevin.com but I was too stupid
to buy Aaron I didn't buy aaronsmith
11.com so I'm actually the only one who
has a website in their name oh nice yeah
and I'm like completely got a lawyer to
get it back for me but I'm like why I
want everyone to see what a nasty Petty
disgusting organization that this is and
nobody believes anything Scientology
says anyway does the general public know
that it comes from Scientology it says
right on the bottom copyright 2000
whatever Church of Scientology
International like they didn't even try
to hide it so aaronsmithlevin.com yeah a
man with no moral compass Aerosmith who
is he really Aaron Smith Levin a man
with no moral compass read about Aaron
Smith Levins an angry man spreading hate
from from the internet's Shadows
open mouth shot
and you're saying like at the wow
there's there's testimonies oh there's
videos from former co-workers the
slightest thing just sets him off and he
just goes totally nuts well that one is
true I didn't understand why you slapped
me before the interview
got links to everyone love this website
on the bottom it's so funny okay
2021 in terms of Scientology
International All Rights Reserved here's
an example of just scientology's
complete lack of self-awareness so me
and Mike rinder we went have these on
like a house flip project right you know
hi grinder you know Mike render do I you
gave me a bobble head of the guy
um I don't I don't know him I just I
would like to talk to him about him but
this uh there's a very fine
gentleman here with a bobble head the
reason we agreed that the bobble head is
because on Mike rinder's hate site
Scientology created a gif or a gif how
do you set what's the right way to say
it the correct way is GIF GIF good yeah
Scientology created a gif of Mike rinder
as a bobble head it was an insult like
oh all he does is sit next to Leah
Remini and go yes Leah yes Leah and so
they they made a gif of him with a
bobble head so we were like we're gonna
make Mike rinder bobble heads and we're
gonna sell them on the spshop.com to
raise money for the aftermath Foundation
I love it yeah and now that I go out and
buy yeah go to the ice cream shop.com
and get yourself a micron or bobblehead
now look now that my profile's getting a
little higher this Head was made to
Bobble like this yeah this smooth shiny
head needs its own bobble head now it
does 100 does I can't believe it doesn't
exist so but let me show you so here's
What's Happening Here we just hired some
day laborers off of what like Craigslist
or something yeah
so what Scientology did was they had a
private investigator stake out that the
house flip project they were clearly
running license plates of anyone who
visited the property because otherwise
otherwise how would they find out the
laborers names look do background checks
on them to find out they had criminal
records and they published this as if
it's going to reflect negatively on me
oh we hired someone to do work who had a
criminal record who gives a shit do you
know one of the biggest problems people
with records have is finding employment
there's nothing bad about hiring someone
who's got a criminal record it doesn't
reflect negatively on me but it shows
you what they think about those people
it shows you what they think about
people who are trying to put their lives
back together and maybe you know
actually work for a living and it also
shows that they're surveilling us like
like they don't realize that putting
this up they're publishing information
that they could only have if they're
surveilling me and Mike and it doesn't
occur to them maybe we shouldn't put
that up just the general process
sad to say of Journalism
where they're looking for any kind of
dirt and it's they're trying to conjure
up a story and there's something about
drama and negative stories that get
clicks and so on so this is a general
process the more especially the more
celebrity you become the more these
kinds of attacks come and they they look
for any kind of thing that could be you
know it doesn't even have to be facts it
could be
just asking who is he really seems to
have traction on the internet yeah what
is the actual truth
of the man you you keep claiming you are
of the good man you keep claiming you
are right it's fascinating uh but
sometimes that can be effective uh but I
think if you're being transparent and
authentic and just putting yourself out
there completely in their story
completely then that's the best way to
fight it that's the other reason to be
prolific on the internet right the
reason Joe Rogan can't get canceled
is because
anyone can watch thousands of hours of
the authentic Joe Rogan you can't
misrepresent him because he spend
thousands of hours representing himself
genuinely yeah the nice thing when you
representing yourself generally you
should be a good person
so if you're a good person then the
internet will know you can smell out the
bullshit who is David moscowage it's
even like because you said L Ron Harbor
founded Scientology yeah
let's go to the story of how we
transition from that to Dear miscarriage
the current leader of Scientology
uh he was actually not selected by El
Ron Hubbard to take over but ended up
usurfing power and taking over this
sounds like Stalin and Trotsky
similar story it's the it's the person
oftentimes in the situation
uh it's not the natural
successor to power it's the one that
takes power right I think the quote
sometimes it gets attributed to David
miscavige's um power power is not given
it is assumed yeah something like that
the last six years of Alvin Hubbard's
life he was often a seclusion
essentially hiding from lawsuits now by
the time Hubbard went off into seclusion
miscavige had sort of already risen up
through the ranks of the sea
organization now miscavige was like a
teenager either like 11 12 13 or
something like that miscavage was not
born into Scientology but he was a young
a young boy when his father got into
Scientology okay so miscavige did start
working as a sea org member so there's
one organization that existed to
essentially serve Hubbard directly and
to represent his interest and that was
called The Commodore he was the
Commodore of the sea organization The
Commodores Messengers organization we're
gonna call it the CML
miscavige started working for the CMO um
pretty early on in his sea org career by
the way as did Mike render
mini mic okay
and so he just became known as a doer
like a guy who'll get it done
no excuses no stops you know get it done
so
he had made a name for himself in the
CMO
around the time
by the time probably went off into
seclusion now when he went off into
seclusion he took two other CMO or I'm
going to call him Messengers right
commodore's Messengers he took two other
Messengers with him patent any broker
now it has been said by people Mike Mike
rinder has told me he goes the reason
Pat and Annie went off with lrh isn't
necessarily because he desperately
wanted them to but partly because we
could afford to let them go we didn't
necessarily need them sure okay and
between the two of them Annie was the
one who was like a really compassionate
person
intelligent person caring person was
there a possible trajectory of this
world where she was the one that took
over yes in fact uh Pat and Annie broker
were the two people that were supposed
to take over okay but because Pat and
Annie were with Hubbard in seclusion
miscavige
basically had the complete run of the
operation without any oversight from
Hubbard the only way any information
would get from Scientology world to
Hubbard is miscavige and patbroker would
meet at a confidential location and
miscavige would give broker any
information he wanted to go to lrh so if
miscavage wanted to get rid of somebody
all he had to do was feed lrh false
information that this person was doing
had been caught doing something
treasonous
and then he would get in response some
order from L Ron Hubbard to get rid of
this person having to so
are there so many similarities between
various communist regimes and fascist
regimes well Hitler did the same thing
when he uh became the supreme leader he
had to take power
yeah had to wait for the president to
die but the whole the whole time there's
a control of information and and a slow
aggregation of power of course with
Nations is different because if you
control the military you control a lot
so there's you have to also get the
generals on your side and so on but I'm
sure in this situation there is similar
kind of Dynamics you have to get certain
people on your side control the flow of
information uh let the original founder
the original leader die off yeah and
make sure that you are the one that's
left with the power right
so whereas Pat and Annie are off with
lrh
all of scientology's attorneys and
accountants and lobbyists and whatever
they all know Dave Dave's the one they
deal with so you know lrh passes away
Pat and Annie make this appearance
nobody knows Pat Nanny everybody knows
Dave
and so he ended up getting rid of Pat
and Nanny this is a very short perhaps
slightly bastardized version of it of
miscavige basically they had been they
had been um ushering just suitcases of
cash
to lrun Hubbard during this time and you
know like so you have miscavige handing
boatloads of cash to Pat broker
Pat would do crazy things like hide the
money in the walls of houses and dig
pits and everything so miscavige
basically threatened to turn Pat broker
over to the IRS for tax evasion that's
pet broker's still alive is he a
Scientologist or no no he basically went
away and kept about it she died a
handful of years ago she stayed a loyal
sea org member until the very end
but literally like Miss gavage put her
on menial tasks like
like she had no Authority whatsoever she
was just put on menial tasks the washing
dishes but not really groundskeeper just
just stupid low-level assistant paper
pusher stuff she never she never
operated with any actual Authority even
though she was supposed to be the one to
take over her and Pat
so on David miscavige
difficult question but can you make uh
both the case that he is a good man
who's misunderstood and the case that
he's not a good man
first of all I believe that miscavige is
a True Believer in Scientology
I do believe that that's a really
important uh question do you think he
believes in all the thetans and and all
of that he definitely believes in that
I think he believes in Scientology but
in a different way than all other
scientologists because he's aware of a
lot more information yeah damaging
information about L Ron Hubbard and the
true story of Scientology than most
people so his version of belief is
different I'll give you one example here
so scientology's bridge to total freedom
goes up to what they call ot8 operating
thing in level eight okay
scientologists have all been told that L
Ron Hubbard before he passed finished
completed putting together
OT 910 11 12 13 14 and 15. it's just
sitting in the vault waiting to be
released this is part of the Scientology
belief system because remember I said
growing up scientology's Bridge of total
freedom is how you're supposed to get
back to your native god-like state while
all the scientologists in the world
who've already done ot8 know that they
haven't gotten there but they still
believe in Scientology because they're
told there's more but wait there's more
Miss kavich knows there is no more
so miscavige knows the fundamental
promise of being able to achieve full
operating thetan
is a lie he knows L Ron Hubbard didn't
accomplish that so therefore no one else
is going to accomplish it as well if L
Ron Hubbard had accomplished it
Miss gavage knows well he didn't write
it up he didn't leave instructions for
how anyone else would accomplish it so
no matter what miscavige knows
that the fundamental promise that what
Scientology is saying they will be able
to deliver to mankind
is a lie
now it's going to sound like I'm
contradicting myself because it sounds
like I'm saying well he knows it's
bullshit
I think he believes that L Ron Hubbard
just failed
to finish his work
and he's kind of hoping over on Harper
is going to come back to finish the job
because elrond Hubbard did tell the
people at International the
International Management base at least a
core of them that he was coming back now
we know that David miscavige believed
this because right around the 21 year
mark he was supposed to come back like
21 years after he died right around the
21 year mark David miscavige was getting
busy putting some things in place that
had to get done in case El Ron Hubbard
came back so we know he at least
believed to that level Because he
believes that like El Ron Hubbard can
sort of enter his own body no that's not
how it works in Scientology okay so you
can't have a transfer of
Satan's if you were full OT you could
can you uh describe the OT against
OT levels OT one two three four five to
the eight what um what are they what's
how do you get to level one I'm gonna
answer this question by first connecting
some dots yes okay
um we spoke early in the interview about
achieving your native god-like yeah
state that in Scientology is called
native state
okay native state and full operating
thetent mean the exact same thing okay
because that native state you are a
fully operating thetan you know
operating meaning operating in your full
capacity so OT means operating thing so
the upper confidential half a
Scientology Bridge are called the OT
levels the operating thing levels and
these and remember they're confidential
so most scientologists have not done
these levels they don't know what's on
them
it is on these levels that you learn
about the zenu and the body thetan story
can you describes you know please we
spoke earlier about how at the lower
non-confidential levels of scientology's
bridge Hubbard is saying that what's
wrong with you is your reactive mind yes
okay
well in Scientology once you've gotten
rid of your reactive mind that is what's
called the state of clear okay so after
you finish state of clear the next thing
on the bridge is the OT levels well if
you've already gotten rid of your active
mind what the heck are you supposed to
do now well now L Ron Hubbard says Okay
first what was wrong with you was just
your reactive mind but now the next
thing you have to resolve the next thing
that's wrong with you is you actually
have tens of thousands of of thetans
stuck to your body and they all have
their own reactive Minds you have to
audit the thetans
how do you order the things are these
like different
shades of your inner mind and you just
have to try to access them somehow you
use the e-meter just like we spoke about
except now you've got a divider that
separates the cans so they don't short
circuit and you hold both cans in one
hand and you have the emulator in front
of you so now you're auditing yourself
you're telepathically talking to the
things that are stuck to you
you're thinking the commands instead of
saying them out loud
and you sort of do drills where you
practice looking for emitter reads at
the instant you have a thought
you're telepathically
auditing spirits that L Ron Hubbard says
are stuck to your body does this sound
like a recipe for a mental breakdown or
a heck of a mental Journey
wherever that leads it's a good lead
anywhere it'd probably lead to a very
bad place right very often does
and you combine that with the fact that
Scientology is against any forms of
mental help or health outside of
Scientology and you have a recipe for
disaster now you might go where did all
these spirits come from that are stuck
to your body this is where Xenu comes
into play so Hubbard says that 75
million years ago Xenu was basically a
dictator at the galactic Confederation
is like 70 something or 80 something
planets sit somewhere in the Milky Way
and uh Xenu was like a dictator an
Overlord for either one of these planets
or the whole system
and they had a population problem and
Xenu was like we need to get rid of like
half the people
so we called them all in for tax audits
Alvin Hubbard didn't like the IRS so of
course the story has to do with tax
audits okay call them all in for tax
audits said psych bitches froze them in
glycol loaded them up on Space planes
flew them to Earth remember the story
has to be Earth because the story is
what's wrong with us
flew them to Earth dropped them in
volcanoes blew them up with hydrogen
bombs
and then captured them with like Spirit
magnets I'm making up words because okay
um and these disembodied spirits of
these people that got blown up have just
been blown in the wind here on Earth and
they attach themselves to things and
they can be in the environment and they
stick to bodies and everything and so
and they all have reactive Minds so at
scientology's upper levels if you get
sick or you have cancer or there's
something wrong with you Scientology
will say
that's one of your body things you need
to get some auditing to fix the body
thing so this story
uh you do it with a kind of bit of a
chuckle but when done seriously so it's
just told in a serious way
like to like or written down you read it
by most accounts scientologists struggle
when they read this for the first time
because this is not consistent with what
scientologists are hoping for is on
their T levels they're hoping for some
real life-changing magic the way these
things are described and sold they're
remember they're hoping that these OT
levels are going to make them give them
the ability to go like completely
independent of their body at will yeah
exteriorize from your body go back into
your body you know like I have some real
Spirit Powers the first is kind of a
shock this is but then you still
probably believe you hope yeah and you
might be you might turn into on yourself
self-critical that this is I'm just not
strong enough yet
yeah because also part of the
Scientology remember it works 100 of the
time when used 100 correctly and if it
doesn't
it could be because something's not
being done right but it also could be
because
you're you're doing bad things that
you're not telling people about like if
you're committing present time over its
crimes sins
scientologists will be like that's part
of the reason auditing isn't working on
you is because you're committing
criminal behavior that you're not being
honest about so every Scientologist is
sort of incentivized to to make auditing
work on them okay now Lex this work is a
little crazy on ot3 you learn about the
OT the body things for the first time
when you finish ot3 you attest to having
achieved this state of having no more
body things and then you start o24
and he's like psych you got more you got
more BTS except those other BTS they had
drug problems and that's why you
couldn't find them the first time so
we're gonna do a little something a
little different here do something a
little different there got to get rid of
these BTS that were addicted to drugs
okay then you finish ot4 and you're
thinking man I hope you got the good
stuff soon and then you get to ot5 and
he's like psych you got more BTS you
couldn't find these BTS because they
were all bunched up together in clusters
and first you have to break up the
Clusters and then you can get rid of the
BTS and you're like okay gotta do that
and this was all El Ron Hubbard approved
yeah this is from L Ron Hubbard and then
after you finish ot5 you get rid of all
the BT clusters
ot6 is just a training course to teach
you how to auto ot7 well t7 is now more
BTS except it's in in the environment
and stuff you're trying to locate BTS
you can find them on your body but it's
just more BTS
okay and then ot8 is remember we talked
about in all these auditing sessions
throughout the entire Scientology Bridge
you have people who've run hundreds or
thousands of past life whole track
incidents these memories have become
part of their self-identity of who they
even think they are
ot8 you go through all these past life
recalls and essentially I'm
oversimplifying this a little bit he
goes psych all those past life memories
weren't yours
they were your BTS
and he goes now that you've discovered
this now you know who you are not
and you are ready to find out who you
really are
well now you're supposed to find out who
you really are on ot9 and 10. those
don't exist
do we know they don't exist yes in fact
the whole story of how that became known
is part of how David miscavige was able
to get rid of Pat broker and take over
power because it was believed that Pat
broker had met was in possession of the
upper unreleased OT levels and when
miscavige determined that he was not and
there weren't in fact any levels
that was bad that was a bad day to be
David miscavige because he now knew he
had something on his hands he could not
get himself out of he's like so there's
no Gap
for Faith to seep in that there is
um a level 9 and 10 11 and 12. oh the
faith is there scientologists believe
that these things do exist yeah
Ron Hubbard didn't leave anything behind
does David miscavige believe they exist
oh no he knows he knows they don't exist
no meaning when I say exist oh I don't
mean do Advanced um uh levels of
spiritual awareness exist when I said is
it means did L Ron Hubbard write down
what anyone is supposed to do that's
called ot9 that doesn't exist so you're
saying David miscarriage believes that
they can be written down so they exist
sort of in the platonic sense
and El Ron Hubbard is the only one that
can write it down so his face is really
deep Oh you mean his faith that only El
Ron Hubbard could have ever been the one
to do it the full principles beliefs of
uh Scientology he is
do you have
are you sure he believes that what
exactly
everything about scientology is that
it's true to the best of my ability to
know that I believe it to be true
like I'll give you small even stupid
examples like Mike renders told a story
where at the international base
miscavige actually had like a copper a
Contraption built into the ground like
grounded in the ground to come out where
you could hold it and if something he
sort of came up with to uh your BT it
could ground your BTS could get your BTS
that if you're feeling overstimulated or
something I'm probably slightly
bastardizing this story but he came up
with this as a great idea something to
help someone destimulate if their BTS
were getting a little too overactive
used now so that that's a stupid story
that's sort of like well it shows you he
believes in the concept of BTS if he's
creating little rods to get rid of them
to ground them into the Earth well he
could be Conjuring up the stories
because uh he understands the power of
myth and narrative and so on to uh to
inspire sure to but like but also if we
look at history both with um just an
interesting thing because I've been
reading a lot about Hitler and Stalin
and it seems like both of them in
different ways
believed
in uh the stories they were telling even
when the stories this is the fascinating
especially with Hitler and propaganda
where they were literally conjured up at
first but then you start to believe
you're in propaganda
uh with Stalin I think what he always
believed is the bigger idea of pure
communism and anything justifies the
journey to communism because it will
ultimately be good for Humanity to
achieve the state of pure communism and
then he's a god-like figure that can can
bring uh can bring Humanity there but
like well Hitler it's interesting
because like this constant propaganda
that he knows is not true
a little bit there's got to be doubt but
then he like that all doubt is removed
very quickly yeah so I guess humans are
just this is how they operate yeah the
conversation about David miscavige gets
really interesting because I could give
you a if I wanted to make the argument
that he didn't believe I could give you
a dozen examples to to make that
argument I just happen
to think that uh he believes in a
different way whereas your average
Scientologist believes that Alvernon
Hubbard was practically infallible that
he thought of everything in advance he
took care of everything before he left
and miscavige still believes in like the
main structure of this thing but he's
like oh shit it's falling to me to
figure out how to actually make this
thing happen I I think Miss gavage sees
himself as someone who has to a certain
degree had to go back and fix I'll run
Hubbard's mistakes do you think he sees
himself as doing good for the world I do
what about for the people of Scientology
I think in his own way he does
I don't think he wakes up thinking he's
um screwing scientologists
I think he sees everyone else as
screwing him
I think he sees uh that he that it is
his job to expand Scientology throughout
the world and accomplish the aims of
Scientology and he sees that it's not
happening and he thinks if everyone else
would just stop if everyone else would
get out of his way and stop creating
problems for him it would happen like uh
I I do think he seems to sees himself as
someone who is doing good I think that's
fair to say
I think the evidence shows that what
about the effects of clearly power and
influence that he's had and money yeah
without question that has served as a
corrupting force it has without question
have you seen sort of evidence of that
that he's changed over time after the
1993 IRS exemption that Scientology won
back
um and this information comes from Mike
rinder
uh that's when David miscavige as soon
as the checks on his power were removed
miscavig's Behavior changed markedly
can you tell the story of Shelley
miscavige and the Mystery surrounding
her I saw that there is quite a bit of
mystery yeah
so Shelley miscavich for many years held
the job of her post in the sea
organization was David miscavige's
assistant that was her post it's
important to truly understand
that and what that means because
um the fact that she was miscavige's
wife
is meaningless
and this is something that's hard to for
regular people in the regular world to
truly grasp how meaningless it is in
Scientology for sea org members who are
spouses it means nothing
Your Role matters more in within seaworg
your role is the only thing that matters
so let's say let's say if Shelley was
married to Dave but she worked in a
different organization
she would never be seen with him
ever publicly ever wouldn't travel with
him wouldn't go to events with him
nothing
sometime around 2006 2007 and I'm very
oversimplifying this okay Shelley
basically pissed off Dave to the point
where he's like okay I'm done with you
I'm gonna take you off of your post okay
at that point she was reassigned to
another confidential Scientology base up
in Twin Peaks California
um why am I the reason I'm providing
this type of detail is because we hear
that Shelley's missing yeah okay well
you realize the same people who report
the Shelley's Mission are also the same
people who will tell you exactly where
she is
okay she works at this secretive CST
Church of spiritual technology base out
in Twin Peaks California I have personal
confirmation that she was seen and
spoken with by someone who knew her well
in I'll say 2019.
Shelley miscavige is missing in the
sense that
she's hasn't been seen with David
miscavige since about 2006. but because
she's no longer his assistant
you would never see her with him as
opposed to like the mystery of of a
person that might be murdered this is
more of a reallocation within the
organization certain people who cover
Scientology
who have published stories
where Shelley's miscavige's family
member told
a story to another family member who
told the story to a friend who told the
story to a former Scientologist who told
the story to a journalist who published
the story
has created the impression that some of
Shelley miscavige's family members are
actually talking to the Press when in
fact that has never occurred
and so the very people who are
publishing about Shelley miscavich
missing have contributed to the fact
that Shelley miscavige does no longer
speak to those family members
because she thinks they're talking to
the Press when they never have
it's pretty messed up it's sad that she
because those those family members what
would be a way for her to
to recover to to flourish as a human
being to escape yeah
so
I believe the information that I have
that I verified I'm I'm putting out I'm
the one representing it's true without
revealing my sources sure that Shelley
was still actively in touch regularly
with family members outside of the sea
organization since about until about
2014.
so I mean regularly okay so there's no
question about her safety or uh during
that period and then someone else who
knew Shelley very well uh did see her
and actually have a conversation with
her in a public place in uh 2019 or
2020. now somebody could still come
along and be like how do we know she's
okay it's been three years yeah okay you
could say that about anybody you know
there there's a the nature of working in
the highest levels of Scientology
management at these super secretive
bases uh it's a very weird and unique
situation yeah it has isolation baked in
house secrecy enforced why why is secret
why is everybody uh holding on to their
stories so hard so so intensely people
that are within the organization like
it's hard to leak
information oh they wouldn't want to
leak they're true believers they see
they see like there's a there's sort of
a conspiracy theory that runs right
through all of Scientology
which is that Scientology
um represents like an existential threat
to the powers that really control that
really control this planet do they have
a face to the powers that really control
do they have names to it like who's
controlling it's Z news homies well I'm
sure that's not what they say Xeno
embodied it's actually sort of a
multi-faceted
um conspiracy and that on the one hand
I'll Ron Hubbard points his fingers at
like the international bankers
okay which has shades of anti-Semitism
too and then the IRS system is going to
be quickly baked in I don't know the IRS
now the the IRS is so low on the totem
pole oh as far as the I mean the
international Bankers he would say runs
everything got it but they but use that
that these Bankers um also use big
Pharma and big psych to control the
population and Scientology is famously
against
um Pharma and psych and so this is sort
of how L Ron Hubbard characterizes like
this big war between Scientology that's
trying to set everyone free and big
Pharma and big psych that's trying to
enslave everyone on the planet yeah
controlling their mind controlling their
body through chemicals and and who
controls the Press
big Pharma and big psych so there's a
lot of correlation to other kinds of
conspiracy theories yeah
um oh that's fascinating but you asked
the question
um where uh why would all these people
hold on to their stories they don't they
would never want to leak like by even
anyone who would want a leak would not
even want to be a Scientologist anymore
like if you truly believe if you truly
believe in Scientology and you got your
shoulder to the wheel and you're a cork
member you think Scientology is
literally the only thing that can save
every being on this planet from a fate
of Eternal Amnesia and slavery yeah
right and so it's like I mean you've
seen The Matrix right so you've got
everyone once you're unplugged from The
Matrix and you realize yeah you can get
plugged back in and live your nice life
but you're a slave that's how
scientologists see this planet they
actually they refer to Earth as a Prison
Planet
just an individual level how is it
possible to reach a person like that I
is there something you could say to that
like what's the Journey of reaching a
person like that
I personally because because when I when
I was in those shoes I say there's
nothing anybody could have said to me to
get me to change how I felt and thought
about scientology
it's almost foolproof that the more
evidence you try to present that there's
something
wrong with what Scientology is doing the
more you're just working for the Sykes
you know it's very very difficult I mean
most people who leave Scientology leave
because they have ex had some personal
experience that was just such a grave
Injustice
that it just pushed them Beyond
uh the point of what they're willing to
experience very I've never I'm not sure
I've really ever heard a story of
someone going yeah I just woke up you
know I just gradually realized it was
all Bs and drifted away
you know it's usually like no I really
believed and they treated me so horribly
I almost had no choice
but to leave and then the stories get
pretty crazy
meaning you don't care what's true
anymore you just have to leave yeah with
this the uh the unpleasant feeling the
suffering yeah and this sort of goes
back to
um the conversation we're having about
like well does miscavige really believe
and I said I could make an argument for
the fact that he doesn't right because I
go it wouldn't be that hard to change
the way Scientology treats people just a
little bit and you'd probably stop
losing anyone because scientologists
already believed to such a strong degree
you have to be pretty freaking horrible
to people to make them leave and that's
where you go well does miscavich even
want Scientology to expand because if he
was really being clever about it it
seems like he could at least stop the
bleeding and yet he doesn't so that's
where you make the argument well if he
doesn't then he must not want to
so his mind is corrupted to the point
where he's not able to actually be a
good businessman essentially it seems
that way
the numbers of scientologists have been
going down and down and down since the
early 90s is there a good I mean it's
very difficult to get to this number but
is there a good estimate of what the
current number of scientologists are
practicing scientologists is oh yeah I
did a video about this it's actually
quite easy to get to the number it's not
more than 35 000 in the entire world and
that's being very generous and
charitable that's I was intentionally
generous I broke it all down in a
spreadsheet and everything you know what
can you give like some insights of how
you get that information sure there's
about 175 to 200 Scientology
organizations in the world
anybody who's ever worked at these
organizations know there's not more than
35 to 50 staff members per org there's
not more than one to two hundred public
scientologists per org I broke down the
number of CR members who'd be working at
every Continental Management unit middle
Management International Management I
broke it on the mission network and I
was generous I mean my numbers were like
if L Ron Hubbard came back and they were
doing an event L Ron Hubbard was coming
back and announcing ot9 and 10 how many
scientologists could we scrape together
in every city to come to this event it
wasn't more than 35 000. now contrast
that to what Scientology says
Millions 10 million people
is this less people than there used to
be yeah at its peak it was about a
hundred thousand active members but
never the millions ever no
has uh David miscavige used the violence
as there in your understanding of it in
your estimation sort of uh harassment
assault and actual
I don't know how to define assault but
violence oh yeah dozens of former CR
members from the international base have
told stories of being assaulted by
miscavige in fact Mike rinder is
probably the one person who's been
assaulted by miscavige more than anyone
else he's personally probably haven't
assaulted dozens of times
who's my Kinder so man here one of the
highest ranking Executives in
Scientology he was author there you go a
billion years oh a billion years it's a
it really is a fantastic book because
Lex the guy the guy was born and raised
in Scientology and worked personally
with El Ron Hubbard and worked
personally with David miscavige for
decades like it doesn't get much more
Insider than that a candid and deeply
felt Memoir of a life lost to false
belief and courageously regained
Lawrence Wright
a billion years my escape from a life in
the highest ranks of Scientology my
grinder it's a fantastic book
um he also narrates his own audiobook
too I know you like the audiobooks
that's how I listen to it yeah so Mike
famously you know I just said a moment
ago like someone who's treated so
horribly even though he still believed
in Scientology that he had no choice but
to leave
and he tells he tells the story in that
book and he still believes in
Scientology for years after he escaped
for years because there's this thing
called The Independent Scientology
movement or the free zone or whatever
there are people who do Scientology
outside of the Church of Scientology
there's just not many of them but Mike
was one of those people who was actually
doing Scientology even after he left now
he no longer believes in that anymore
and he doesn't do it but but even though
he still believed even though everything
he knew
was what he was leaving behind he still
had to leave it behind and by the way I
just throw open to random page and he
says when I signed on for sea organ
Adelaide in 1973 the recruiter promised
I would train as a Scientology executive
under the direct tutelage of Hubbard on
the Apollo
so this is another thing I should
probably ask you about there's oh we can
go for days I was also told that after I
learned all I needed to learn at the
foot of the master I would return to
Australia to help expand Scientology in
my home country
so what was the thing that really broke
him the final thing is when
uh he got to a point where he was no
longer being forced to lie to protect
elrond Hubbard
he was now being forced to lie to
protect David miscavige
and specifically it was about the
allegations of having been assaulted by
miscavige Mike rinder was at some um
event it might have been a grand opening
for a building a Scientology building in
London and I believe it was John Sweeney
at that time a BBC journalist who you
know stuck a camera in a microphone in
Mike's face is it true David miscavige
assaulted is it true and Mike denied it
on camera and then turned around and to
himself is like
this is what my life has been reduced to
lying to protect David miscavage this
used to be about elrond Hubbard this
used to be about scientology yeah now
it's about protecting this douchebag
and miscavige had just issued orders
that was going to send Mike off to
Australia Muscat like miscavige is
sadistic that is that is without
question sadistic meaning he enjoys
inflating pain upon others so he very
specifically was going to tell Mike tell
render or tell that cocksucker we're
shipping him off to Australia he's never
going to see his wife and his kids again
essentially
and that's when Mike was like they were
the only reason I hadn't already left
so if I follow the orders
I'm going to lose them
if I leave Scientology I'm going to lose
them
at least if I leave Scientology
I'll be free of something
it's fucking sad and he still believed
Scientology to some degree after he left
is what you're saying yeah has he spoken
about what it took to let go of
believing in Scientology yeah he does a
very good job talking about all of this
in the book
it took him it took him like four or
five years to get that book done like
it's a it's a polished version It's a
polished version of a story and and I
think Mike's about getting ready to
start his own YouTube channel so that'll
be a lot of fun actually Mike comes on
my Channel all the time yeah you guys
you guys do a thing together right yeah
we do Three Amigos with me and Mike
rinder and Mark Hadley that's why I gave
you Mark's books I thought maybe you
would uh know him from our little Three
Amigos are Mondays with Mike and Mark
videos Mark Hedley blown for good behind
the Iron Curtain of Scientology so he
escaped from the international base on a
motorcycle it's a wild story I won't
even try to do it justice but who's a
better writer of the two of them
you're not going to get me there like
I'm trying to be an investigative
journalist for once Mike and Mark are
both on the board of the aftermath
foundation with me yeah so who's better
looking no
it's one of my justifications for just
putting up content every day is every
video is just an excuse to in some
little white promote the aftermath
foundation and and I do that again one
to genuinely help people escape and two
because I know it drives David miscavige
crazy if you look in your own heart is
there anger there
I don't think it's anger I don't hate I
don't hate Scientology I don't hate
David miscavige
um I don't even hate my experience in
Scientology be able to
accept the good yeah from your
experience yeah absolutely but it's also
the only path that I traveled right so I
tend no I'm okay a little less so these
days but
um earlier in life I tended to attribute
all my pot all positive characteristics
in me to Scientology because in my
simplistic way of thinking I was like
what else could it possibly be
attributed to right that's a very black
and white way of saying it's a beautiful
way to see uh to see life no matter what
happens to you you attribute like you
focus on the positive yeah and you feel
like sometimes people have traumatic
experiences with parents and so on yeah
and if you focus on the positive it's a
good way to let go right of the trauma
associated with it true but like another
example would be like I didn't go to
school like I I stopped going to school
in the seventh grade but people go but
you sound so smart and what am I
supposed to do I'm supposed to say well
it's because of Scientology like how do
I answer that question like if it's the
only path I traveled how do I answer
that question I don't necessarily want
to give Scientology credit but what the
hell am I supposed to point to sure you
know I mean you said
there's you kind of enjoy I mean part of
it is you're joking and trolling that
you enjoy knowing that your YouTube
channel drives Dave miscavige crazy
I mean what
that means you still I mean there is a
joy you have there is a joy there's I'm
not going to deny that I don't know what
to make of that because there's a I
suppose there's an intimacy
when you're part of a tribe of that kind
it's almost like let me try to let me
try to frame it
I wasn't trying to get kicked out of
Scientology I was trying to not get
kicked out of Scientology
I you know so what happened first first
my mom got kicked out for basically
talking some smack about David miscavige
and then they go to me and they go okay
you've got a disconnect from your mom or
you're gonna get kicked out and I lied
about that I was like okay I'll
disconnect but I never did for a couple
years I lied my ass off about it
eventually they were like this guy's
gonna keep lying to us right and they're
like yeah like all right you're out
something go to my wife so you got to
divorce your husband or you're gonna get
kicked out and she goes no
that's a hell of a statement from her
it's gonna get harder for me here so I'm
not quite sure how to
okay so I'll try to get I'll try to do
it you don't seem like a man who's
afraid of hard things okay
so she's like
no
so then they go to her parents
and they say you've got to disconnect
from your daughter
and your three granddaughters
but you're gonna get kicked out
but they have three other kids who are
scientologists who have spouses who are
scientologists who have grandkids
so I feel like
up until that point everybody was sort
of making a decision for themselves and
what would be best for themselves
until they get to her parents
and then they're like which grandkids
are we going to lose
okay at the part where they were trying
to get me to disconnect from my mom
there were hours that I spent talking to
them going you know guys
there's another way
it doesn't have to go this way
there's another way that ends well for
all of us
and that wasn't even considered
and I go like
they created this monster
and that's a fact
and that's why I take joy in it
when people when people ask me is
Scientology a destructive cult I don't
even have to get into all the academic
discussions of what's a religion and
what's a cult and what's the difference
I go as long as they destroy families
like that they're occult
so they cut people off deliberately one
by one
and it doesn't have to be that way right
and why is it that way
I mean it started with L Ron Hubbard
laying out a policy framework a policy
structure that
if interpreted and applied in the worst
possible way with the worst possible
judgment can be abused in that way I
would make the argument
that if an anti-broker had taken over
that Scientology policy does have enough
little
um caveats baked into it that even the
policies about disconnection could be
interpreted and implemented in a
non-destructive way
there is room for judgment and
discretion
and miscavige has just created the worst
possible version of Scientology and
that's that's where you sort of get that
argument of does he even want
scientologies to succeed because he
seems to be hell-bent
on making sure that he doesn't
yeah and and I don't want to see him
make it succeed but it does bring that
question up of like what are his
motivations
can he not see that he's destroying the
thing he's supposed to be expanding
that's also you know there's ways to
measure cost
and that would probably be the most
costly aspect of Scientology is the
suffering associated with the separating
of families yeah I mean that's actually
just puts make it's a very concrete what
we value in human life
is the connection to our loved ones like
everything else doesn't matter like
getting 50 bucks a week
uh
like that like uh getting money stolen
from you getting the truth stolen from
you none of that compares
uh you can even frame that as the good
there could be a lot of positives
whatever in the tribe but separating
families separating loved ones that's
the destructive thing
so no hate though no I genuinely don't
hate them
do you forgive them 100
there's no one I look at in Scientology
that I go how dare you if I was in their
shoes
having to you know operate under David
miscavigest orders I would have done the
same thing and I would have loved it
truthfully
I don't blame any of them I mean I take
the opposite approach if they knew what
I knew they'd be doing what I'm doing
yeah if they knew what I knew and
believed it they'd be doing what I'm
doing they're not dumb it's not it's not
it's not dumb people in Scientology
they're ambitious they're dreamers they
got hope they're driven all that kind of
stuff yeah
and it's one of the reasons I like
putting up content on my channel so they
can see hey like if you're a
Scientologist you look at that and you
go hey he seems like he's doing well
he's kind of he's happy he's a positive
guy he's a good communicator he knows
what he's talking about he's not lying
he's not exaggerating I don't exaggerate
anything on my channel I don't make up
anything
and this is actually comes from an
experience I had from 1998 to 2000 I was
living in La I started at a two-year
period in my life where I actually had
almost no contact with Scientology
and during that time I found my way onto
the internet and there was a website it
might have been esmb ex-scientology
message but whatever it was it was at
that time the main source of critical
information about scientology on the
internet and I looked at it I remember I
was still a True Believer
and I looked at this and it was so
uh offensive
um insulting uh hyperbolic exaggerated I
was like oh just a bunch of bullshit
I was in Scientology for 16 more years
if
what I had seen on the internet about
critical of Scientology if what I had
seen when I had seen it was something
that actually resonated with me
that I was like oh
that I believed was true that's
incredible I would have gotten out of
Scientology 16 years earlier
so I was like
how can I help create an experience on
the internet that if a Scientologist
stumbles upon it it will resonate with
them instead of repelling them and that
is exactly what I have set out to do and
what I believe I've accomplished there's
the content the message but also just
showing that you can be happy outside of
Scientology exactly you can have a
fulfilling life you can be a good man
yeah all that
what benefit do you think Tom Cruise
gets from Scientology so why is he still
in Scientology he genuinely loves it and
also miscavige does there's one
celebrity who does have the most unique
experience in Scientology and that is
Tom
Scientology hires all of Tom's staff
there are no all of Tom's staff are
subject to interrogations by Scientology
not only in the hiring process but
during the employment like David
miscavich and Scientology runs Tom
Cruise's life and his production company
and his household staff do you imagine
there's some personal connection there
where there's just they like each other
a lot best friends
I mean it's them against the world yeah
is how they see it I think it's pretty
easy to see how that works but between
the two of them I think this idea of
them against the world us against the
world is a really power powerful
intimate like I kind of see like
friendships and relationships that way
that I'm not in a dark sense but it's
like
the world is full of Cruelty and
absurdity and unfairness and so on it's
nice to huddle together like the
Penguins in March of the book against
the cold 100 they're just like and so
especially with the ideology of uh of of
Scientology it uh this idea that you can
you can be anything you can essentially
I mean you you can manifest it
essentially through like believing it
um I mean you don't really put into
those words but believing that you're
you're a God
this is a really like inspiring positive
thing to think if they could figure out
how to do all that without destroying
families and bankrupting its members
they might actually have a future that's
why like it's funny because sometimes I
feel like it's like like I'm rooting for
them to like succeed and do it right and
I'm not but it's an interesting academic
discussion to have of like
we can all see how much people will
sacrifice in the names of belief and
religion yeah we can see how much
scientologists sacrifice based on what
they already believe
if you would just start treating people
less horribly you know what I'm saying
it might actually have a future but
that's what I wanted to it seems like
this dark lesson of human nature that
they like there's something about you
know to use the word Cults that you just
stop seeing reality for what it is
there's a lot of things that could make
this a better organization that's
actually helping people flourish and
um
and and be a little bit more like
uh loose about membership right not
dividing families not causing suffering
not causing Financial harm but actually
inspiring people and helping people but
then maybe and it fundamentally changes
of what the organization is and maybe
that means somebody like David miscavige
loses power too which might be very
difficult or people that are close to
him lose power and people hold on to
power so yeah whatever the human forces
here it seems to
become worse and worse over time
what about uh oh let me ask a conspiracy
question is there a chance that Tom
Cruise is being blackmailed that there's
information from auditing no no so that
kind of stuff is not that's very good
I've actually come out and said
definitively uh I do not know of a
single person who stays in Scientology
because they're afraid of being
blackmailed it's just not a thing it's
just not a thing
does Scientology have enough information
to Black still blackmail someone if they
wanted to well sure I mean and it
doesn't have to be true it could just be
lies who cares who knows Scientology can
say whatever the hell they want so
that's the thing it doesn't even have to
be true and actually that would be the
argument against blackmailing like in
order for Scientology to Blackmail you
with that information they'd actually
have to represent that yes he really did
tell us this and it's like well wasn't
why are you spilling secrets of members
right like it sets a bad precedent what
are some of the sins according to
Scientology
most of the sins from a Scientology
perspective are just doing or saying
anything that being brings um disrepute
to Scientology itself right
um
remember they don't it's not like
Christianity where there's rules if you
break this rule you're not getting into
heaven yeah because scientologists and
think about things oh well there's the
drug you can't do drugs right you can't
do uh drugs
uh and you can't take any psychotropic
medications and no medications almost at
all you're allowed to take medications
it's just um there's no rules expressly
uh prohibiting it it's just most
scientologists tend not to you can take
Advil but many scientologists won't
okay
um you just can't take anything
prescribed by a psychiatrist a
psychologist or any drugs that are
psychotropic drugs I mean ssris are
considered probably the closest thing to
Pure Evil in the world of Scientology
what about weird question what about sex
is there boundaries on what's there used
to not be it's become very puritanical
in in the last many decades for a reason
I can't actually explain like miscavige
does seem to be infatuated with
controlling sex
like that that is one thing about
miscavige version of Scientology that's
gotten very strange I mean L Ron Hubbard
even specifically wrote a policy that
says we are no longer going to
regulate in any way the bedroom
activities of people he literally said
from this point on no one is allowed to
be subject to any justice actions of any
kind whatsoever for anything they do in
their sexual lives uh but that was still
did not give permission for gay
relationships that was still referring
to straight stuff and uh monogamous only
can you do promise that can you open
marriages and open relationships
according to that over on Hubbard policy
you can yeah but you know I think he
wrote that policy before he created the
C organization and then what happened is
this is actually how this came into
effect uh he created this organization
you had a lot of people on a ship and
everybody was just banging each other
and it created just a nightmare of
personal relationship that it was making
production impossible not because
everybody was spending so much time
banging but because everybody was so
upset about who was begging him yeah I
mean sex and sex and that kind of
dynamic is really um
I mean human humans do what humans do
and then there's drama and all that it's
it's understandable because everybody's
so intimate it's the closed tribe uh it
makes sense to limit sex otherwise
everyone's but otherwise it becomes a
sex cult yeah which a lot of them end up
becoming well on that topic would you
classify Scientology as a cult 100 but
not because I'm like fully conversant
with the academic uh differentiations
between what's a religion and what's a
cult I mean Scientology would say well
all small new religions are Cults and I
don't know that's probably true some
people would say all religions are
called so maybe like depends on how you
Define religion and it depends on how
you Define cult but I just fall back on
my thing of like if you're destroying
families yeah and bankrupting your
members you're a cult
that's us versus them and the them could
be your family it could be your loved
ones that uh
that's deeply destructive and one of the
things you would probably throw into a
definition of a call to something that's
actually destructive because like I do a
lot of stuff that they're caught like
like Jiu Jitsu like there's a lot of
really close-knit tribes
but there's no negative toxicity to it
there's no uh divide there's no
divisions or if there is it's more
boy try being a fan of a certain soccer
team and then becoming a fan of another
soccer that's hardcore and like
but I'll tell you I trained Jiu Jitsu as
well and I have found that community of
people to be one of the most loving
and uh helpful
uh group of people ever shout out to
John Keller Gracie Baja Clearwater
um no but seriously like it's one of
it's one of the reasons I continue to do
it despite
my back my hip my shoulder it's like
it's just such a cool group of guys goes
on uh you used to not I think it was
much more divisive uh in the beginning
uh from this Brazilian Roots one of the
things that's really hard is the team
oriented like
if you're this team you're you're right
or die with this team and there's no
there's a crunches they go to another
team yeah and I think that aspect that
was actually a turn off for me in the
beginning that the toxicity of that
because I understand that a little bit
for the elites
for the highest of the highest that
there's I like the Brotherhood and the
Loyalty of the people like the Olympic
gold medalists the like the best in the
world yes but for like recreational fun
like it's like this is all ultimately
about the camaraderie of all human
beings together not some whatever label
you put on your on yourself I don't
think we actually talked about the
organization itself we talked about uh
tax exempt status which is really
important we talked about some of the
control like through the propaganda
control
of what's out there it's actually
interesting that you said that like
the Scientology has pretty much lost the
battle with the internet oh yeah
um which is kind of inspiring that it's
hard to defeat the internet
but then there's like Bots there
I think if you're sophisticated I'm not
sure that's true but if you're not it's
kind of remarkable they haven't been
able to capitalize on these bot armies
because there's one thing that they have
it's a lot of tax-free money that they
got nothing else better to do it yeah
right so you can invest you know they
just they should give you a call like
they just don't have the right people
apparently
uh but that said how do they wield uh
influence with government agencies with
you've talked about the the local police
yeah uh enforcement uh also federal
agencies anything that is the one way
they effectively put their money to use
is lobbyists and attorneys
um you know judges very rarely have they
ever been able just to get a politician
on their side it's the behind the scenes
people you know Greta Van susteren's a
very high level long-term Scientologist
and her husband I always get it wrong
it's either Jim Cole or John Cole I
always get it wrong uh he's a very
powerful attorney who has a lot uh
wields a lot of influence behind the
scenes
and that's just one example like the
reason why that's an interesting example
is because he's actually a Scientologist
and he travels in those circles
Scientology though it's money goes to
good use by hiring non-scientologists
retired judges attorneys lobbyists it
really is how they get almost anything
done like miscavige himself is not
hobnob and glad hand and shaking hands
and meeting these folks it's the
non-scientologist professionals
who work behind the scenes on
scientology's behalf
can you describe the Dynamics of that
how that actually happens like like why
why would the why would the police
department work on behalf of Scientology
I meant more the courts and Regulators
not the police department but well for
example it can come down to something as
simple as this sign in Clearwater
Scientology hires Clearwater Police to
do off-duty work for them they pay like
three times the normal off-duty rate so
they will even though I'm not aware of
anyone on the Clearwater PD who's
actually a Scientologist they basically
end up with they would call them allies
or safe points right people who like
will literally operate a Scientology
spies you know if someone comes in and
follows a report about some child sex
case someone in the Clearwater PD is
calling Sarah Heller at the office of
special Affairs at the Flying Latin base
to let her know hey heads up we got a
thing coming in and then Scientology can
run around and go talk to all the
scientologists who have knowledge about
this and either get them out of clear
water you know so it's not like uh
direct explicit corruption but more just
uh friends and co-workers yeah
integrated deeply in in the in the
community yeah I call it soft corruption
so on another example you have
um the mayor of Clearwater Frank Hibbard
um well he used to when when he won his
recent election he stepped down from
some of these nonprofits that he served
on but the non-profits that he served on
also gets millions of dollars of
donations from some of scientology's
richest Clearwater members right you
have one of the mayor's best friends Joe
Burdette literally a paid lobbyist for
Scientology so that creates a chilling
effect
on anyone who's going to be talking
smack about scientology because
his friends are on their damn payroll so
um I call it soft corruption it's not
illegal it's not illegal
um but it's how Scientology wields
influence and what's what's ironic is
that a lot of these people who work on
Scientology behalf actually secretly
hate Scientology
they kind of see through it but as part
of the community I mean it's deeply
integrated in the community and there's
financial leverage
um are you ever afraid
I mean afraid for your well-being afraid
for your ability to function in society
because of the pressures from
Scientology no is that because you're
genetically malfunctioning or or
mentally or or is it or is there
speaking out as a kind of protection I
think it's one of those things that once
you've seen behind the curtain and you
see The Wizard of Oz is just a silly man
you just don't have any fear now it's
one of these things like people say oh
you're so brave and I go huh what's that
quote bravery is you know being a
soldier and being afraid and going in
any way
it's not rapes running if you don't
think nothing's gonna happen to you like
so I'm just trying to like I do not hold
myself up as an example of Bravery
because yeah I it's not like oh they
could destroy me but I don't care no
there's not a damn thing they can do to
me and it's one of that's one of the
reasons I continue to put out content
every day to just basically go hey still
here
I dare you to try to do something about
it but you can't and hope that that also
serves as kind of an example for other
people to go if this Schmo can do it
yeah and they can't do anything else to
him then maybe I can do it too because I
would love it I would love there for be
a 20 channels where former
scientologists talk about their
experience I mean that is bravery
because what happens is fear seeps in
even if it's not grounded in reality but
at the same time like uh you know
um my grandfather who uh fought in in
World War II I mean the story is I mean
he was very convinced and sure most of
the people he fought alongside with died
he was a machine gunner but he believed
that bullets can't hit him right that's
what he said well you know sir he was
right
right because he survived so there's
some sense like you're never biased that
he's like just like yours like I'm not
brave I just the boys can't hit me
I mean there's a dark kind of Truth to
that there's some you know it's like uh
it's it's a feedback loop where if you
have the confidence and you push on
forward and you're brave in that way to
not let fear see pen and affect you it
actually gives you less things to be
scared about and yeah I mean but that
initial few steps might be uh for people
it might be a very difficult stuff to
take to talk about publicly the fear was
knowing how the family was going to be
destroyed and trying to prevent that I
was terrified of that happening
but it happened
there's nothing left to be afraid of and
that's kind of the thing like they
created this Beast and the same is true
for Mark Headley the same is true from
Mike render I I said they've essentially
created a Scientology proof virus
Scientology resistant strain by throwing
everything they have at us for so many
years
they have just through natural selection
created people who just do not give a
damn about anything they could or would
do and maybe there is something a little
wrong with me because when I get a phone
call from someone like I just got this
phone call about you and it's clear that
it's Scientology pis doing work behind
the scenes I get really excited
I get really excited I don't get nervous
I'm like oh no it's happening like oh
yeah this is going to be exciting I'm
like okay because everything they try to
do to me
I'm gonna figure out how to reflect it
back on them and make them look
ridiculous and that pales in comparison
to the separating from family exactly
what is there is there parts of your
family that you've lost because of
Scientology
just yes
if you
most
of my episode
on the Lee Remedy in the aftermath show
was talking about me and my twin brother
it's just a pretty horrible story it's
just a pretty horrible story so I do
have a younger brother who's still in
Scientology and disconnected from me but
I never had much of a relationship
um with that brother
um
really to begin with right
um but my twin brother died when I was
like 23 or 24.
and that was without any question a
direct result of
um
our Scientology experience you know he
died in a car accident that wasn't
technically his fault or anything like
he wasn't even the one driving but uh
the fact the the specific fact of his
death was not meaning like the the fact
and the manner of his death and wasn't
like specifically because of Scientology
but our story and how uh where our
relationship got to
and how he was even in a position
of having something like that happen to
him is directly attributable to
Scientology
do you think about him miss him
it's part of what you're doing in memory
of him
yeah for sure
man this is I mean you know we were
identical twins can you imagine two of
me
barely handle one
I love it
losing him would that be the darkest
moment in this whole journey of
Scientology for you
two moments would equal the darkest
moment it it would be that
and also just the period of you know
six nine twelve months of impending doom
knowing that my wife's whole family was
gonna be obliterated
and that there's nothing we could do
about it
and uh
and kind of telling ourselves every step
of the way it wasn't really going to
happen
you know
um and I really felt like
you ever watch the Ozarks I felt like
Marty bird now this was happening before
the Ozarks but when I watched the Ozarks
and I see that character
the entire world is crumbling down
around him and all he can
oh I did my
all right what's the next step I watch
Marty bird and I go that's my fucking
spirit animal
because you can only control what you
can control
and um you can't keep Scientology from
destroying your family and and literally
like I it's funny I mentioned the show a
lot because I watched that and I go like
that's exactly how I felt you know I
talk about this six months or nine or 12
months whatever it was of impending doom
it's not like I was an emotional wreck
during that time you know in private I
was but it's not like
I was just freaking out it was like
the sun's gonna come up tomorrow the
World's Gonna keep spinning I can't
control it this is hard I can't believe
this is happening
but tomorrow's a new day
um I've never personally even at the
darkest times I've never experienced
anything that I would characterize as
depression certainly not ever any
suicidal thoughts or anything even in
the darkest of times I and again this
one thing I go is it because of
Scientology or is it just me there
really is an emotional detachment
there almost has to be and it's a cold
calculation what what are my options
what do I do here and then once I figure
out the answer to that question I'm
actually quite chipper and happy
you know like that's sort of my default
like you could give me six horrible
options once I figure out the best of
those six I'm gonna feel like I just had
a pretty good day that's brilliant
because I just watching Ozarks is so
stressful it is right it's so stressful
watching it is it
and uh he usually finds a way
and usually it is a set of really bad
options and it's one of the bad options
what's the best of the bad options and
he almost gets pissed off at everyone
around him for being so pouty about it
but you know what's that show again the
same way again oh but you know it's like
you know it's still simmering there
right under the surface it's like pretty
damn close to the surface do you know
what I mean yeah yeah and um
people sometimes ask about recovery and
whatnot and like what does that look
like and what does that mean and it sort
of goes back to kind of the emotional
Detachment is I go what the fuck does
recovery even mean if you're an
alcoholic and you're recovering you know
what that means I used to drink I don't
drink now well I used to be an occult
and I'm not an occult now how else am I
supposed to feel about this for someone
to be like it seems like you've
recovered what the fuck does that even
mean
like I'm sure some academic has an
answer to that question I'm not someone
who particular I don't spend any time
thinking about that my recovery is
success and a little bit of trolling and
revenge yeah but mostly success you know
what does it mean to be a recovered
former cult member what you don't cry
when people ask you about your brother I
don't know what it means
um I've never had therapy but not
because I'm still like against it from
Scientology I just like
I'm not gonna pay to talk to someone do
you know where else I could do that
Scientology now I know there's a lot of
people going like oh boy I know it's a
lot I'm not shitting on therapy
I would rather have a beer with my
friend and talk about this shit yeah
than talk to a professional for 200 an
hour as a kind of therapy yeah yeah yeah
listen that's the important part of the
reason I do this podcast is talking to
people that you care about the that
you're close with this is a really
powerful powerful thing but yeah I don't
know what recovery looks like and
success to you is defined just be find
happiness find happiness outside the
closed bubble that defines What
happiness looks like a Scientology if I
can make my kids happy that's success to
me
what advice would you give to your kids
on how to live travel the world a life
they can be proud of travel the world
travel the world
um get rid of friends who don't push you
up and tear and don't celebrate your
success it's it's hard to give that
advice to young children because kids
are always so catty
but honestly it's like when I see
that that really is I just think not
just advice to my kids but some of the
best advice to anybody yeah if you've
got anyone
around you who doesn't celebrate your
success just spend less time
with those people
surround yourself with people who
actually want to celebrate your success
and push you to succeed I think that's
true I think it's even more important at
a young age because if if at a young age
you get used to being around people who
kind of take joy and tearing you down
then that's what you become accustomed
to yeah you know and I just think you
know
having friends who love you and support
you is just about
closest thing to
the true meaning of life
and uh who believe in you who believe in
your potential and some of those ideas
underlie the good parts of Scientology
yeah and uh except there's a lot of dark
parts of Scientology that separate you
from the people that believe in you and
that love you
well this is a beautiful conversation
you're a beautiful human being who uh
came full of gifts
and I I mean I I genuinely uh first of
all you're an aspiring human being
but most importantly I can't wait until
I can purchase a bobble head
on the store
so I can keep that inspiration on my
desk at desktop uh Aaron thank you so
much for talking today thank you for
being you for being brave I know you
said you're not but uh thank you for
being brave for talking about this
you're an inspiration and you you help a
lot of people thank you brother thanks
for having me
thanks for listening to this
conversation with Aaron Smith Levin to
support this podcast please check out
our sponsors in the description and now
let me leave you with some words from
Ralph Waldo Emerson
be not the slave of your own past
plunge into the sublime Seas dive deep
and swim far
so you will come back with new
self-respect with new power and with an
advanced experience that will explain
and Overlook the old
thank you for listening and hope to see
you next time