Kind: captions
Language: en
narcissism is not arrogance narcissism
is the opposite of arrogance there is
such a deep sense of inadequacy and
incompetence in the self that the
defensive structure around that becomes
dominated by a rocket fueled Envy
the following is a conversation with
Paul Conte a psychiatrist and a
brilliant scholar of human nature my
friend Andrew huberman told me that Paul
and I absolutely must meet and talk not
just about the topic of trauma which
Paul wrote an amazing book about but
broadly about human nature about
narcissism sociopathy psychopathy good
and evil hate and love happiness and
envy as usual Andrew was right this was
a fascinating conversation as the old
meme goes One does not simply doubt the
advice of Andrew huberman
allow me to also quickly mention that I
disagree with Paul a bunch in this
episode as I do in other episodes even
with experts in part for fun and in part
because I think the tension of ideas and
conversation is what creates insights
and wisdom my goal is to always
empathize understand and explore ideas
of the person sitting across from me
this agreement is just one of the ways I
think it's fun to do just that as long
as I do so from a place of curiosity and
compassion
this is a Lex Friedman podcast to
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in the description and now dear friends
here's Paul Conti
do you see Psychiatry as fundamentally a
study of the human mind and not just a
set of tools for treating psychological
maladies absolutely I think Psychiatry
is our best way to understand who we are
as people I mean it looks at our biology
you know how does our brain work how
does it connect the parts with one
another how does the chemistry in it
work it's a very foundational aspects of
who we are and then it manifests as
psychology what do we think what do we
feel what are our strivings what are our
fears so yeah I think Psychiatry
provides tools that we can use to help
each other but those tools come through
it being a discipline of understanding
so with every patient you see with every
mind you explore are you picking up a
deeper understanding of the human mind
I think I'm trying to I think we should
learn we should be able to take
something away from everything we do you
know every interaction to some small
degree every conversation if it doesn't
have to be a patient just anywhere at
Starbucks getting a coffee you can learn
something from that little experience
yeah even if you just reinforce sort of
gentle kindness and gratitude and and
decent human interaction there's a
reinforcement of that that even if we
don't take away memories or lessons so
to speak we can reinforce who we choose
to be
so understanding ourselves from those
interactions too not just the general
sort of philosophical human mind but
understanding our own mind
introspect on how our own mind works
yeah everything we understand about
anyone or anything else is coming
through here right so yeah so we're
understanding others where we're also
understanding ourselves it's all feeding
through US yeah yeah but it's a tricky
thing to step away and look at your mind
and understand that it's just a machine
and you can kind of control the way the
machine processes the external
environment and the way that machine
converts the things it perceives into
actual emotions like how it interprets
the things it perceives you just sort of
step away and analyze it in that way and
then you can control it you can you can
oil the machine you can control how it
actually interprets the Perceptions in
order to generate positive emotions and
be like a what is it like a mechanic
for the for the gears in the machine
I mean I think to some degree to some
degree of it the difference I think at
least is I understand I think of
machines as not being inscrutable right
that that if there's enough study
there's enough Acumen applied that we
can understand whatever it is we're
trying to to figure out whereas part of
understanding ourselves is understanding
that there are things we can't
understand and I think that's that's
indispensably important I think to
health and happiness and also to having
enough humility to see how people can be
different from us how we can be
different from ourselves at times so
knowing that we don't know a lot and
having some idea of what that might be I
I think is an indispensable part of the
process which I think is different from
machines I think yeah the machines
you're basically saying machines
generally because they're engineered
from a design they're usually going to
be simpler therefore understandable and
you're saying the complexity of the
human mind is uh
at least from our perspective nearly
infinite
is there a meta phenomena what sometimes
gets described as sort of levels of
emergence where at increasing levels of
complexity you have novelty evolved that
you that you can't predict from from
lower levels of complexity like for
example atoms to molecules you know it's
just one example I I think uh neurons to
Consciousness Consciousness to culture
right that there are meta phenomena that
separate from the phenomenon from the
phenomena underneath of them and and
therefore by adding an entire aspect of
novelty so I I think we are
I mean I really think this is true that
we are all infinitely fascinating
because of these levels of emergence of
novelty that are inscrutable because you
can't predict from one level to the next
or understand fully are what make us and
not just us but I think sentient
creatures right human beings right but
sentient creatures inestimably more
interesting than than creatures that
aren't as sentient and and I don't know
I think when when we think about machine
learning and artificial intelligence I
think it's that that we're trying to
create levels of emergence that now we
don't fully understand anymore which I
guess is both exciting and maybe scary
too
yeah so he started the physics of atoms
uh quantum mechanics going to chemistry
going to biology
from the biology you have the functional
phenomena especially as manifested in
the human brain and then multiple brains
connecting together through
Consciousness intelligence creates
civilizations it's pretty interesting
where do you think the magic is at which
layer of the cake every layer because
every time you emerge from one thing to
another I see it as an analog like the
concept of the dialectic right where I
think it was Hegel right who who
realized
um hey when you when you have like thing
a and thing B and they're complicated
and they come together you know you
don't get a hybrid of A and B right you
know you you end up getting something
that's new that's novel and and I think
that describes to some degree that like
what emergence is except there's
there's a whole new and it's Universe of
novelty right that that comes at each
layer of emergence that allows infinite
possibilities that weren't possible
before and I think that's why we're so
complicated that we're our functional
Neuroscience right which I think is
psychology right our ability to think
about ourselves about others to be
reflective is sitting on top of so many
layers of emergence like the idea of
standing on the shoulders of giants that
we're you know each of us our
Consciousness is standing on the
shoulder of a giant of many many many
levels of emergence of novelty so many
of which we don't understand I mean
about subatomic particles everything
that that quantum physics means you know
when when does time become important
right as opposed to things happening
outside of time and outside of space
when do we slot into one temporal
perspective and then the complexity just
I think grows and grows and grows yeah
the interesting word you use is novelty
if true this really blows my mind in
some uh either shallow or deep sense it
is true I'm trying to figure that out I
don't know if you know something about
cellular automata is this very simple
mathematical objects where you have
rules that govern each individual little
cell and they interact locally and that
you know you understand the very simple
operations those individual cells but
add another layer of abstraction when
you just kind of zoom out with blurry
vision these uh meta objects starts
appearing that function you could build
a touring machine where they can build
an arbitrary complexity of of compute of
uh of computation on top of this kind of
very simple object yes it's an
interesting question whether
that was always there
the atoms
somehow know about love right like about
Consciousness
about war and violence and evil and hate
and all that that's already Laden in the
possibility of that the capacity for
that it's already in the atoms it's
already in the physics it's already in
them
in in all the different chemistry and it
builds up and it's like even the origin
of life
still a mystery that's that's known
that's in the physics that's known to
the universe the basic uh background
physics in the universe
because if that's not the case
where does that come from where's that
magic
and how many layers can the cake
possibly have how many are we gonna keep
building if it's all if there's if we're
constantly through this process of
abstraction of adding a layer to the
cake adding novel things
like where's the ceiling
as we expand out into the cosmos if we
successfully can do that we're going to
keep building like more miraculous
complex objects and then the brain is
just like a middle layer
thing we tend to think of ourselves as
truly truly special manifestations of
what's possible in the universe but
maybe we're just like the basic like
tiny building block of something much
much bigger we're in the early days of
being a brick and a very large building
sure look I think that's entirely
possible I mean I think the only
emergent thing so to speak that that we
build is culture right the aggregation
of us so you have individual human Minds
which are entirely unique even the fact
that time is different for you and me
right it may be by Pico seconds right
but we can engage because our our
perceptions of time are parallel enough
they're close enough right that we can
share a reality right but we're all
living in a different dimension of time
right I mean we know that right so we're
unique in that way and then the Unique
Individuals that we are just like the
cells right start to create not just one
thing not just a culture but culture on
top of our individuality right there our
uniqueness our even dimensional
uniqueness of of time and experience and
and Consciousness so we create cultures
on top of us but what could be Beyond
culture right and and what is different
from us either on underlying levels like
you know like quantum physics or
chemistry or biology or entirely
different and unconceived I think is
it's an immense question and I think
it's one that should create humility in
us right that look look how much we
don't know and then how Reckless we are
with ourselves with our Resources with
with human life and and I think there
it's I I it's important to say I mean
you think about how entropy rules
the universe around us I mean how over
selected are we how many not just
hundreds or thousands of times but how
many millions of times does there have
to be a selection Branch point before we
get into a sort of Eddie pool of counter
entropy right where you can begin to
create
right which which I think is why I say
okay the the atoms know about love right
the the the fact that anything is being
created right means there's this over
selection for counter entropy where
there can be a building of Greater
complexity of ultimately of novelty and
we don't often think about that of of
how far removed we are maybe light years
so to speak uh from any other location
temporally physically in the universe
where this could happen and we don't
think about what does that
mean everything that you said love
everything is uh uh counter entropy goes
against the way
uh the basic physics of the universe so
maybe actually the atoms really don't
like what we're doing they want us to
stop they've been trying really hard to
stop and despite that we somehow uh
started this whole bacteria thing for
for like a billion years and now we're
hearing it I give it kind of the other
way I don't think there's any purpose to
purposelessness right so so why would
anything be here if we if the drive
weren't towards
creativity right if the drive warrant
towards those subatomic particles not
being nothingness that blips in and out
of existence right like we think is
going on in empty space you know for
light years upon light years right but
is
is there a design either natural or
intentional for
um a schema right a scenario that allows
for the incredibly rare but not
non-existent Eddie pool of counter
entropy where good can happen right
where creativity can happen where
ultimately something can grow something
novel can happen there's no novelty in
the vastness of space even though
there's not nothing there there's
novelty here because I think the the
layers of uh of emergence start stacking
very very very high when we're in the a
place of counter entropy which then
could provide even thoughts about like
good and evil right the idea that
creating that preserving is good right
it's what we build upon it's how we get
to the Eddie pool of counter entropy
right so then destruction is not good
you know what what good comes of
aggression and destruction right you
know unless we're protecting we can
think of of outlying cases but just
think in general concepts right the
destruction destroys it brings us
towards a state of entropy towards a
state of nothingness whereas goodness
commonality
um collaboration right
nurturing right brings
novelty it brings new existence into the
universe and I think we don't we don't
think about that we're in the middle of
something so vast and built on top of so
many layers and I think it leads us to
be Cavalier you know with with human
life including often our own
so you think this there's a underlying
creative force of the universe that uh
that might even have a kind of
built-in morality to it where
creating is better than destroying
and then that somehow maps on onto our
society where we kind of try to figure
out what that actually means in terms of
Good and Evil so there that's some
something is there like that but it's
like but it has to be
it's like so nice it's so perfect
because it's rare
is sufficiently rare where we have our
own space like you can like close the
door and it's like I need to be alone
right now as our human civilization to
work on my thing so it's sufficiently
rare that there's not other alien
civilizations they're just like
constantly knocking on our door
destroying us
um but it still exists that's weird
right right it's so fantastically
improbable yeah that I think we should
be very respectful of it and I think you
said there's a creative force that
values creativity yes things to be well
sure if it's a creative Force right it's
existence its ability to exist and to
create
comes from something other than entropy
right something other than so much
dispersion that there's nothingness
right so so the creative force will
value
the sanctity of things right you know
keeping things together not destroying
things right building novelty including
novelty of knowledge novelty of
sentience I mean it fits with the idea
that we're not nothing that that's
incredibly improbable and that there are
these many many layers of emergence that
we're standing upon and I think it tells
us something that we're not doing
ourselves a service to ignore right it's
not just a jump to saying oh there's a
religious answer to everything he says
no it's saying
science isn't a God either right so if
we if we if we think of science as a
tool and not as an endpoint in and of
itself what is the science telling us
like I remember showing up at medical
school and it really is true I mean I
knew so little about the human body I'd
only been in hospitals to visit people
I've taken pre-med classes but sort of
intensely at once after I didn't take
any and I was working in business I I
knew next to nothing and and I had this
idea that was so naive in retrospect
that I was going to learn so much right
I was going to answer these questions
because I was going what's going on in
the body what are these organs doing
what are these cells and what I learned
was
there was so much more that was amazing
and mysterious and seemingly impossible
like even how a cell functions right
like what is going on inside of a cell
the transport mechanisms and energy
functions and diffusion functions and
then you can go down to smaller levels
than that but when you come back out and
you say how all those cells make a
kidney it's not
explanatory you know I remember asking
the OB who had delivered my first child
right I was so amazed and I asked him
like what do you think like what do you
know you do this right you you're seeing
this life created and you know and his
thought was nothing where I just marvel
you know I mean I get to do this but I
just marvel at it and I think the more
we know
about us the more we respectfully Marvel
and we should do that we should
proactively Marvel at every aspect
at every layer
uh that uh where the novelty emerges yes
we'd be a lot less likely to say hey I
don't like you because of something
whatever it is you know race religion
culture sexuality gender identity
whatever it is you know oh I want to say
I want rights that you don't have right
or I want what you have right I mean
there's so much of this and I understand
it's driven by scarcity and by human
insecurity and envy and all of these
things that I think could drive us
towards destruction but all of that
recklessness comes from
not having this initial appreciation and
respect that you're referring to and
just marveling at like wow okay we're
here that's amazing let's start with
that
but if we Marvel at this whole thing
the human project The Human Condition
the all the different kinds of human
beings that are possible
what do you then make of that some
humans do evil onto the world
first of all are all human beings
capable of evil if we're in the process
now we've got a little bit of momentum
in terms of marveling yeah the layers of
the cake uh should we also Marvel at the
capacity for evil in all of us yeah is
that capacity there I believe that it is
yes so what do we understand about the
psychology of evil where does that
originate in the human mind is it there
in the new biology is it there in the
environment in the upbringing can I
clarify first I think the capacity for
evil I do believe is in all of us
there's a difference between enacting
evil and and a sort of preset followed
developed plan of evil right I don't
believe that all of us are capable of
doing
what the people who perpetrate the most
evil do right but I do believe that
we're capable of of perpetrating evil
right and the the thought one thought
would be that there are drives in US I
mean there certainly seem to be drives
in US towards survival towards
gratification uh in some ways towards
pleasure and that can get very
complicated because pleasure inside can
be relief of distress so if I feel very
badly about myself and I can feel a
little better about myself by making you
feel worse about yourself right which
that plays out in a lot of human beings
is is that an indirect way of bringing
pleasure right so it gets very
complicated what's going on inside of us
and sometimes the perpetration of evil
things can be through misunderstandings
anger impulsivity I mean the things that
we can that we can have in Us and other
times there can be there can be other
things going on which are through the
lens of unhealthy human psychology so
for example the psychology of Envy which
I think drives the Lion's Share of the
orchestrated evil right there's a
difference between impulsive reflexive
evil and highly orchestrated evil which
I think is driven by
Envy highly orchestrated evil are we
talking about a skilled societies like
totalitarianism so if we're thinking
about about somebody like Hitler so as
at scale
orchestration of evil Envy driving that
so I mean that's really interesting to
to think about I'd love to hear more
about it so some of it there might be
some psychological forces that are in
tension
with each other so one is
if you look at somebody like Hitler
it's difficult to know what was going on
in his mind but it's possible to imagine
if you just look at dictator's thought
history that he thought he was doing
good not just for himself but for the
people he believed have value so one way
you can have what you can achieve what
we consider is evil
is uh by devaluing some group of people
and uh that could be all group of people
so it could have sort of a narcissistic
type of idea that you basically don't
care about other human beings that's one
Envy is different I mean maybe they can
collaborate together uh or even uh like
you mentioned you can actually enjoy
doing bad to others that's almost like
different because if if all it is is
like narcissism uh you disregard you
don't care what how others feel then you
can just have make cold calculated
military almost economic decisions and
you don't care if a million people die
here or there but if you actually enjoy
some aspect of that or there is like a
resentment that fuels it it's not just
cold calculation it's like fueled by
some kind of personal or uh cultural
resentment I think it's all fueled by
that you think so I think it's all field
but I think the idea that say Hitler
thought he was doing good good right it
is like that is such a thin facade that
it flies away like a handkerchief in a
hurricane right that
okay yeah I think that's wow that's
beautiful yeah it's it's built upon like
it says I'll explain logical lies right
because people can build lies upon
specious logic right so the idea that
okay I am doing good because I believe
that this
um ethnicity of people is good and this
is bad and now I'm going to do this and
I'm going to make the world different
and it's going to bring better to the
world and now I'm raising armies and I'm
building concentration camps and I think
like this is all in the service of good
is I don't I don't think anyone ever
thinks that right or they they think
that but with because they're living in
the surface patina right like they're
not allowing the hurricane in that blows
away the handkerchief and says like this
is all this is all this is all evil
right I mean how do you decide that some
group of people is good and some is bad
and like what what is it that you take
upon yourself to to to play God or make
decisions about the world and I think
what really is going on is people are
not doing that right there's something
cobbled together to say like why this is
right and this is okay right and this is
even good right but it is all
a lie right it's a lie that's adorning
the the what I believe is the fact I
believe that what's going on is the
gratification of Envy inside of the
person and whether someone says oh I
think this is good and it's okay if a
million people die or I'm going to enjoy
that a million people die I think is the
same I think the the enjoyment the
gratification of the orchestrated evil
is there and that it all comes from
vulnerability and insecurity it all
comes from deficits in the sense of self
right I'm gonna have to process that
my my my slow Penny and PC is processing
that so Envy underlies all of it the
psychological concept of envy what is
that
I keep putting myself in the mind of
Hitler I guess that that has nothing to
do it doesn't have to do with uh Jews or
Slavic people does it have to do with
specific amorphous
other
in his mind that he's envious of I think
it has all to do with him
all to do with him there's not a love of
the people with whom he Allied or even a
sense of the people who he persecuted
were worse than him it's all projections
out of what was going on inside of him
which was an intense sense of inadequacy
a rage at being someone he perceived as
lesser than that's the difference
between so we can define words in
different ways even within psychology
but let's say we take the definition
here of sort of jealousy as being sort
of benign right the idea that oh I might
see something that you have that I don't
and I might think I'd like that maybe
I'll work harder to get it right or
maybe I can't get it maybe it's that
you're younger than I am they say okay
you know okay you know you have that and
I don't I mean I have other things too
I'm okay anyway but I might want those
things but it's very benign the jealousy
I'd like to be younger I'd like to be
richer whatever it is that we people
think right
but it's just a thought and it's a
thought that can result in strivings or
acceptance right it's very very
different it's completely different than
Envy which is destructive it's the
thought of I see something that you have
that I don't have right and instead of
me working for it or accepting that I
don't have it what I'd like to do then
is bring you down
take you down to where I am and then
I'll feel better right because from the
perspective of Envy it is all relative
those jealousy a kind of is about
because he said completely different but
it's jealousy potentially like a gateway
drug to Envy like does it does it like
is it a slippery slope I think no I
think that jealousy is a natural just
part of the human phenomenon that we go
through life and we see like oh I'd like
to have I think it's probably part of
our incentives right if you know if if
I'm Farming and I have one row of crops
and I look over and I see that you're
working harder and you have two and I'd
like to have two that can make me work
harder to have too you don't think it's
slippery slope from one to the other to
at first you're like I'd like to work
harder but then you keep failing and the
weather sucks and you keep failing and
the other person becomes more successful
plus he's got a new hot wife now there's
a nice tractor uh does it feel this all
working and then you get this idea that
you know what I'm gonna steal all this
stuff I'm gonna murder him
and that you know don't you think that's
just like a leap no I actually think
it's the same phenomena no no because
but I think there are things that are in
us as humans right so so the things are
just by being human like we can for
example feel we can feel compassion
right we can feel interest right we can
feel jealousy in in that benign sense
like it's all part of just being human
if we if we start going from hey you
have more crops than I have and and you
know that seems like actually have a
better life in a lot of ways than I have
I'm gonna kill you that that's not that
is not a progression of something benign
right that is but wait wait a minute but
there is a human leap of the same thing
isn't it is because you're drawing a
line stuff you're saying like this is
the this human stuff it's regular life
it's benign
but it feels like this benign thing is
just a low magnitude thing
version of the thing that's not benign
because there's there's probably a gray
area where it stops being put like
jealousy you can have like healthy gel
so you can have a little bit slightly
unhealthy there's a that's I think
Jealous Guy this John Lennon song that I
love is just beautiful I mean there's
like this jealousy inside relationships
can make you feel like uh you know take
your minds in all kinds of silly
directions and it's crazy but like it
feels like that that's an extra neighbor
to like being really crazy and toxic and
all that kind of stuff inside
relationships and then that feels like a
next door neighbor it's like an
apartment building that feels like a
next door neighbor uh that eventually
gets to Hitler with uh with envy and
resentment of entire population of
people you're right that there's a
causal yeah there can be a causal chain
right like if I'm not feeling jealous
maybe I won't ever feel envious right so
so you can see okay so it can kind of
lead to it can open gates to huh like
how much do I dislike that you have
things that I don't have right so yes in
that sense but and I think this Supply
that I think is so important that I
think there is a disjunction right it's
if there's an asymptotic shift right
from one thing to another because if you
speak in my language mathematically yeah
yeah yes that that's it's a way to
convey right something that's entirely
different because if I start thinking
you know I'm not going to try and make
things better right I'd like instead to
harm you that's that's qualitatively
different oh it's almost like you know
what it is it could be I don't know what
you think about this but
is uh in which direction
your motivation is pointing so if in the
response to the feeling of jealousy
your sort of
um the motivation says okay I understand
this feeling I want to do less of it
I think there's there must be a
threshold to which you actually want to
do more like it becomes a vicious
downward cycle so that's what Envy
becomes like the first feeling this idea
that I'm gonna kill the farmer
it turns into like more and more and
more and you can't sleep and you're
visualizing the farm and it becomes the
devil and like you have this very you
know it's it's a it's basically a thing
that builds into the negative Direction
versus returns to the stable Center yeah
now a person is cultivating evil yeah
right they're saying hey there can be
seeds of Evil in all of us let me take
that seed out dust it off plant it
nurture it right and then grow that seed
of evil which will affect all other
parts of the person's life right they
they won't behave the same towards
others in their in their life they'll
they'll they'll become different as they
nurture fantasies of evil as they begin
to create with side within inside of
themselves the the motivation and the
will right to enact the evil right the
Hitler analogy would say look you take
someone who had a bad childhood right
who who like was not loved who who was
taught and told that he was less than
okay like that we know that happens I
mean that's why child abuse is so evil
right it's telling children the the
worst possible wrong lessons right
they're not good enough they'll always
be hurt you know they can't keep
themselves safe they don't deserve
safety right so then you take someone
who then nurtures that seed of evil
which is a choice and says well I can't
paint well enough and no one appreciates
me and I don't like how I look and I
don't fit in with the people I want to
fit in with and then and on and on and
on and on and on and there's a hatred of
self through that lens of misery of just
being repulsed by the self but that's
unacceptable to the self so oh it has to
be someone else's fault
right it's not my fault whose fault is
it right and then you see on mass the an
action of evil towards groups of people
who who somehow in this person's mind
right are responsible for his misery and
there's the justification of evil and
then all the you know whether it's this
will be better for the economy this will
be good this will be that like that's
all lies built to justify the evil those
are surface level narratives yes and the
Envy is the the deep down mechanism that
enables and that's the endpoint that's
being served what's being served is
destruction right which is why it always
brings more destruction right I mean how
many times do do
Wars that were started for purposes that
we would look and say like those were
evil purposes like how many times
does good come of that even we look at
the modern world what comes of it is
more evil is more destruction and
Hitler's outward destruction eventually
came Inward and you know you see
pictures of what Berlin looked like
after the second world war right it
wasn't just destruction perpetrated
outward as awful as that is it's it's
it's catchy right like people used to
worry if you you know before the during
the time of the Manhattan Project right
if you start this Chain Reaction you
know will you blow the whole world up
right or will it stop within this bomb
or not and we see okay the chain
reaction of evil hasn't yet blown the
whole world up but look at the look at
how the catastrophe spreads and you
think 50 to 60 million people dead in
the second world war which truly was a
World War what destruction was spread
around the globe and this is something
that can't be stopped once the Chain
Reaction starts like if Hitler was
successful like it would just keep going
if he had been I think if it's personal
psychological level I mean right because
we think from the perspective of
Destruction success would have needed
led to the need to conquer more then
there's factions and infighting and then
eventually you get the same mass
destruction right and and never does the
inaction of evil satisfy what the person
is initially seeking like people want to
feel better about themselves right we
like winicot who was uh a British uh
pediatrician who who wrote about
children and adults from a very deep
perspectives he wrote about the idea of
good enough right and then you can sort
of extrapolate that like we all want to
feel good enough like not just limp over
the line good enough but I want to feel
good enough that I'm a decent person in
the world and like what I do matters and
you know I can I can have an impact on
people and you know people can like me
and care about me it's there's a
Simplicity there that people want that
when people don't have and there's
certain other factors maybe they're
temperamental factors or historical
factors can lead to trying to soothe the
that deficit right through envy and and
I think it starts with with it starts
with that and it often starts in
childhood not always but it often starts
in childhood when when the the child's
brain and psychology are so vulnerable
and you know you see Salient child abuse
if you know if you look at what was
Hitler's background and what was
Stalin's background and I mean you could
you could look at almost anyone who's
perpetrated evil or they're serial
killers or whatever it may be the the
majority not everyone but the majority
had these lessons in childhood that said
you're not good enough you can't keep
yourself safe no one cares about you and
and in a subset of people that's going
to generate envy and that you know that
that seed of evil then gets planted and
nurtured
as a fighter jet Brewers above us the
sound of a fighter Jetta boss it's been
good by an orchestra if you get you
quickly forget the comfort of being in a
peaceful place that's one thing I saw in
Ukraine
is um
hey you quickly get comfortable here the
whole trip back
I was thinking it's so damn good to be
in America it's a whole just a whole
like it's like a three day trip back
it's so good to be American
we might take that for granted
it's a population but I do agree
so the destruction never alleviates the
envy
are all humans capable of envy
I believe the answer is yes if you think
do we all have the possibility of evil
in us I think the answer to that is yes
but we have
free will we have choice we we can
choose what we do with that which is why
just because someone is a sociopath you
know for example is it doesn't mean that
they're not responsible I mean our you
know our medical legal jurisprudence
right has
um has absolutely borne that out that
legally medically we think okay if we're
responsible presuming we're healthy
we're not unhealthy in other ways it
eliminates our ability to to be
circumspect but that we're responsible
for what we do and don't nurture inside
of us I mean there are plenty of things
we could decide to nurture anger and
hatred about you know I can think of
slights difficulties whether it's
something someone else has done to me or
I could blame fate or I could be mad at
God or the world we can all make those
choices and we're responsible for them
or if we're recognizing things in us
they're like oh I you know I too have
that in me but I don't want to nurture
that I don't want to Foster that or do I
choose to nurture and Foster that and I
think ultimately in our subject of
Hitler as as evil if Hitler had kept
winning and winning right I think
ultimately he would have been the only
person on Earth
right and I really do believe that
ultimately everyone everything else
would be killed because it's such
destruction right destroy everything
right and probably when that didn't work
then there's the destruction of the self
right because
nothing
soothes
envy that is stoked by the sort of
flames of evil and what you see is more
and more anger and more and more
frustration which is why I really do
believe someone like that who who
nurtured evil in themselves that way
ultimately would would destroy they'd be
like him and one other person then he'd
kill the other person I think that's
really powerfully said but even just to
return to the jealousy versus Envy I
still think that it's the same Flame
and envy is just the bigger version of
it so I I think
I just in my own personal life
I've felt jealousy towards others like
you said like oh this person
has a I don't know a cooler thing drink
it whatever trinket I cared about and
usually it's when somebody's really
close to the the trinket You're Building
uh and I I early on like in my teens
I realized that
just just empirically speaking that
jealousy over a period of a week just
doesn't feel good
and it's not productive it doesn't help
me build a better trinket
um or it does if I turn it not into
jealousy
towards another person but into a love
for building a better trinket it's like
oh cool almost you know what like
proactively speaking uh and later in
life like people like Joe Rogan actually
have been really uh powerful in this for
me just as a fan of his
to celebrate other people so it's almost
as opposed to ignoring that other person
with a cool trinket it's like
celebrating their awesomeness in my mind
yeah like just saying how awesome the
humans are able to do that and actually
just how awesome is that exact person
and being able to do that yeah and that
somehow made me more capable to build my
own trinket better yes and it feels good
also like it makes me feel happy and now
you're not jealous anymore you're not
jealous anymore right so that's why I
think jealousy is different right
because he's saying there's a week of
jealousy like I don't like this right I
don't like but if you take that in a way
that says wait a second actually this is
awesome this is fabulous and this person
did this that person's awesome right
then
then what you're not raining on anyone's
parade right and in not doing that even
inside your own mind you you gain a
greater cognizance of your own
capability right well if he if he can do
that or she can do that why can't I too
like I want to build I want to make the
better trinket too right yeah now you're
thinking creatively nowhere in there
nowhere in there was the emergence of
evil I just disagree with that I think
there was a choice made where I I looked
at my if my life was darker more
difficult I think it has nothing to do
with the actual little flame of jealousy
I felt I think he has to do a lot more
with the other context if if I
if if my life were more difficult there
was more abuse there was more challenges
I think that decision I could have made
that decision a different direction yes
maybe I don't know
um yeah you you've written brilliantly
about trauma if there's a bit more
trauma as the background noise of my
decision making I'll be more likely to
uh not be able to uh pull away from the
gravitational field of that jealous
Scene It would build and build and build
a build so I think I it's not to
disagree with the brilliant a person but
like I feel like that flame that flame
has the capacity to engulf the whole
world I guess the initial flame of
jealousy the little bit like especially
the Younger You Are
it's a it's almost like a habit you get
to build in either direction because
I've early on built a habit of saying
I'm going to uh channel that jealousy uh
into productivity and into celebrating
other people in that jealousy disappears
that was like a little Discovery for me
I discovered that I get it that doesn't
come nobody tells that to you you kind
of discover that little thing I could
have easily not discovered it I could
have easily discovered
that it kind of feels good to to like
mess with that other person to like uh
think uh shitty thoughts think negative
thoughts do negative things to the other
person because that could also I I just
think the capacity in that initial
feeling is there and I think it's the
decision we make because like otherwise
I think it dissolves responsibility
like well surely I'm not Hitler
therefore this jealousy is normal no I
just feel like every jealous has the
capacity to turn into maybe not Hitler
but a toxicity that destroys in a small
way in your own little private life but
it could destroy I agree that
jealousy brings us
can bring us dangerously close to Envy I
mean maybe maybe let's see if if
um a heuristic we could agree on right
let's see so let's say okay if we look
at the terrain of the mind is geography
right so if I'm feeling happy satisfied
probably like I'm pretty far from from
Envy land right right but but if I'm
feeling jealousy now I'm I'm I'm coming
kind of closer to that border right and
I still I think there's it's a big thing
to go over the border right that the
Border isn't a gray area right there's a
border to go over and I think that you
you I agree completely once certainly
about trauma that the more trauma there
is because then the more
misunderstandings there are about self
and feelings that I'm not good enough
and then that can be anger about why and
who might be oppressing me and you know
I hate myself and everyone else who
seems to be better like so the trauma
can drive us in these negative
directions but we're still crossing over
something right so so if you have the
trinket and I think that's awesome I
want that I want to work harder you know
what I could do though is I could sneak
in tonight when no one's around and I
could move something around no no way I
don't want to do that right but it's
like I came over the Border a little bit
and I thought maybe maybe that's a
better way but then I came back right
and I'm and you're we're responsible for
that right because it is a choice to say
I don't want to work hard I'm already
working how how hard I don't want to
make my trinket better I want to think
mine's the best one I could destroy
yours right and you know we're letting
our mind go over that border and do we
say right run that forward right let's
run that forward and put people around
us who feel the same way and start doing
it so we think less of ourselves and we
debase ourselves do we run headlong in
or do we come over that boundary and
that's maybe the capacity for evil in us
that we come over that boundary all of
us right at times but do we come over it
and then said no that that's not my
choice that's not my self-definition I'm
coming back but I'm trying to justify
maybe there are certain other
sociological forces that help us cross
the border too so in Nazi Germany we've
been talking about Hitler but then
there's also the the German people and
so maybe when there's a bit of a mass
hysteria so all these effects of like uh
combination of propaganda with the small
jealousies and resentments of the people
that don't cross the border uh uh
together they can with with great
charismatic leaders that sort of uh
really fuel that fire that we feel when
we're part of the crowd so maybe those
individual kind of psychological
barriers we have to take that leap from
jealousy to Envy those can be made
easier the the leap can be catalyzed
through this mess 100 100 I think that
to me is a massive point we're talking
about layers of emergence right so if
there's individual Consciousness then
there's culture right and you know we're
products of the soup we swim in so to
speak people would say that when I was
growing up right we're products of the
soup we swim in so if the soup that
we're swimming in is the soup of hatred
yeah right then it's going to Foster all
of those things so then you think about
just in a painting with a very broad
brush the culture created in Germany
prior to the second world war and like
what was the impact of the reparations
after the first world war right of the
the punishing reparations impoverishment
and you know basically humiliation right
that people were feeling okay like
that's there were a whole bunch of
decisions that impacted that cultural
perspective right then there must have
been aspects just like I see in many
ways parallels in in America now of what
are our standards for what we're
communicating to others right how is the
media deciding like what's real and
what's not real what's true what's not
true what's hatred that that is only
going to do evil versus what's hatred
that's okay because I might sell
something by by putting it out there I
mean that was we know that was going on
in Germany during the rise of the Nazis
and and I think there's a parallel to
you know do we value truth do can we
stand together and say no matter how
much I might disagree with you
politically right we can still
understand like that there's there's
right and there's wrong right there's
truth and there's lies right so so I
think those are just two examples of
determinants of culture and then the
culture is a determinant of you know is
someone like Hitler marginalizes like
that's a that's a crazy evil person oh
my goodness like whoa right or is that
someone who gains a greater following
and more adherence and then there starts
to be a momentum because why because
what did demagogues do I think they they
have a giant lasso and they harness the
Envy of of thousands upon thousands upon
thousands of people that's right you
feel worse about yourself too doesn't
matter what the reasons are maybe it's
your childhood maybe it's not maybe it's
job failings maybe it's professional
maybe it's personal doesn't matter like
you have nv2 let's put it together and
do some destruction because that'll make
us feel better which is a lie
so we've talked about Envy where does
from the leader perspective uh things
like narcissism or sociopathy
psychopathy come into play
what can you make of
the world we live in maybe the leaders
that run the world from the perspective
from the lens of narcissism so I am
struck 20 years of doing
what I do now I've been a psychiatrist
for 20 years and I've practiced in so
many different settings and I consult in
different settings I've been fortunate
to have a very wide purview of like
what's going on in people and in the
world around us
and I am struck with amazement that of
all the things I see that I say abnormal
let's say from the mental health
perspective this could be depression
panic attacks uh hearing voices
addiction but there's so many things
that cover everything
that narcissism is not
frequent compared to a lot of other
things so it's it's it's small in terms
of their narcissistic diagnosis right
it's it's much less than many other
things but it causes the Lion's Share I
don't just mean the most compared to
anything else but but I think more than
50 the majority of
bad things evil things destructive
things that I that I see in the world
around us I think narcissists are wildly
destructive because they are driven
completely they are lodged completely in
the lane of Envy
can you um try to sneak up and we don't
want to be lost in definitions but can
you try to sneak up to a definition
non-clinical definition of narcissism
that we're talking about so narcissism
is a deep
pervasive and unquestioned sense of
inadequacy
in the self that comes along with anger
and fear and vulnerability
fear of Destruction fear of annihilation
that is compensated for by
aggression by is it by the the mechanics
of Envy by trying to make the self uh
seem better at the expense of others by
taking from others uh by being
completely Cavalier to the thoughts and
feelings of others that narcissism is
not arrogance now narcissism is the
opposite of arrogance there is such a
deep sense of inadequacy and
incompetence in the self that the
defensive structure around that becomes
dominated by rocket fueled Envy
so the Machinery of narcissism is Envy
but uh what do you make of the kind of
more popularly discussed kind of symptom
of narcissism which is a seeming
not caring about other people
sort of a very inward facing focus in
terms of the calculation you make when
making decisions about the world
narcissistic people definitely care
about other people right it's the people
who are schizoid right and say that
don't don't necessarily register other
people right but narcissism people care
about other people but it's entirely
vis-a-vis the self right if I'm schizoid
I don't really notice or care much who
you are right but if I'm narcissistic I
absolutely care because I'm watching
every last detail of you what might you
have that's better than me yeah right
it's it's an it's an incredibly intense
focus upon individuals and demographics
of people but the priority the the the
goal is entirely about the self which is
why it can become easy to say I don't
care if a million people die right
that's how different is that from going
out and destroying one person or a
million people right it's it's in the
same category of those people only there
exist is only meaningful in how it
relates to me
but it's still
meaningful it just seems like a very
difficult uh leap to take that I don't
care that a million people die
that
seems to be even with Envy
that seems to be a big
like feeling and thought to have if you
at all care about them
are other people I guess
tools for alleviation of your sense of
inadequacy right I mean I don't even
care about in that like being caring at
all I mean caring about in that noticin