Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
Michael malice this is a special holiday
episode and it is made extra special
because it's announcing the release of
Michael's new book called the white pill
a tale of Good and Evil Michael and I
disagree on a lot of ideas in politics
and philosophy and we have a lot of fun
disagreeing
but there's no question that he has a
deep love for Humanity and puts his
heart and soul into his work especially
into this heart-wrenching deeply
personal book
so I ask that you support him by buying
it at White pillbook.com that should
hopefully forward to the Amazon page
as always we each dressed up in a
ridiculous outfit without coordinating
for the chaos that makes life so damn
interesting this episode is full of
humor darkness and love
which is the best way to celebrate the
holidays
this is the Luxe Friedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Michael malice
we probably should have coordinated this
better shouldn't we yeah I think so have
you since this is a Christmas special a
holiday special have you been a good or
a bad boy Michael this year well that's
interesting one of the people in the
book Granville Hicks his autobiography
starts with I was a good boy uh and he
wasn't a very good boy
um on a scale of one to ten
I'm trying to think of what bad things
I've done oh okay there's that okay wait
that's not that was no that was not that
that's all right I would say nine nine
yeah I try to do the right thing
okay what are you you're either is it
gonna be one or zero yeah no I'm
extremely self-critical I pushed to zero
okay I reach for the zero
well mission accomplished so this this
episode is announcing the release of the
white pill a book you wrote which is
um I've gotten the honor the privilege
the pleasure of being one of the first
people to read it you're the first so
I'm really I don't know if nervous is
the word but you are the first person
who has read it that I am speaking to
about it my first my last my everything
yes you say that to all the girls but
I'll take all the fem Bots all the fun
Bots but yeah it was a truly incredible
book it's basically a story of evil in
the 20th century
and throughout it you reveal a thread
that gives us hope and that's the idea
of the white pill so there's the the
blue pill and the red pill
there's the black pill which is a kind
of deeply cynical
um maybe apathetic just giving up on the
world given that you see behind the
curtain and given that you don't like
what you see given that there's so much
suffering in the world you give up
that's the black pill and the white pill
I suppose is even though you acknowledge
that there's evil in the world you don't
give up yes so if you're listening to
this and you're a fan of this podcast
you go to White pillblock.com it'll go
to it white pillbook.com and if you
don't know how to spell we'll probably
have a link that you can click on so for
people who also don't know Michael
malice is not just a troll
not just the hilarious comedic genius
who hosts his own podcast but he is an
incredible brilliant author dear reader
the uh unauthorized autobiography Kim
Jong-il so that's a story of North Korea
the new right to Journey To The Fringe
of American politics that's
the story
of uh the extremes of the United States
uh political movements and then the
anarchist handbook that's talking about
the ideologies the different flavors of
ideologies of anarchism but on top of
that you're now going in going into the
darkest
aspects of the 20th century with the
Soviet Union and the communism with the
white pill so
let me ask you uh let's start at the
beginning at the end of the 19th century
as you write the term socialist
Communists and anarchists were used
somewhat Loosely and interchangeably
because the prophecied Marxist Society
was one in which the state had famously
withered away that was a great
disagreement about what a socialist
system would look like in practice but
two things were clear first that
socialism was both inevitable and
scientific the way of the future and
second that the capitalist ruling class
were now going down without a fight so
what are the key points of disagreement
between the Socialists the anarchists
the Communists along that at that time
at the beginning at the end of the 19th
century at the beginning of the 20th
century the possibility of the century
laid before us that eventually led to
the first and the second world war the
idea when the Industrial Revolution came
and Marx was very much a product of the
industrial revolutionary thinking was
okay now that we have technology now
that we have science we can
scientifically match manage Society we
saw this very much with Woodrow Wilson
and this kind of idea of progressivism
that uh you know we could use technology
and kind of not capitalism in their view
unfettered capitalism was wasteful
you're making too much stuff you have
surpluses you have uh shortages if we
produce just exactly what we need and
you have these people Engineers their
engineering Society then you know
everyone will be happy and you won't
have to have any suffering or waste so
socialism at that time was used as a
broad umbrella it's not used in the term
that it means today of
necessarily State socialism it just
meant the idea of having Society
scientifically run so you had a huge
argument they're different Wings you
even had it from the beginning with uh
Marx versus bakunan because Marx was for
obviously State socialism uh the
absolute State running everything
although even with Marx and Engels it
was a means to an end after man is
remade in his very nature then the state
where there's a way and everyone's equal
and you have this kind of Heaven on
Earth situation but coonan you know was
the opposite he regarded the state as
inherently immoral and wanted to have
kind of like workers collectives and
things like that and Ultra localized
control so the end was always stateless
it's just that some people viewed this
state as a convenient effective
intermediate State well I think to me at
least there are plenty of others who
just regarded it you know have the work
have state owner have the workers you
know control the production via the
state by the way how does my hat look it
looks great festive it's good is this
side better than the other side I think
you want it on this side so people can
see you oh no no I wanna you know like
uh when you have like hair or peekaboo
hair it's called Veronica Lake I think
was her name and then I just glance
flirtatiously towards the camera
sometimes I gotta um
foreign
no glove No Love
the bad the bad aspect of white gloves
is uh
the blood stains them
so you have to get new ones every time
and now I glance flirtatiously after
that's there I'm sorry okay marks go
ahead so so there were there were there
were other socialists who did not regard
uh this kind of end times where the
state would do the way at all
um and they're you know very strange in
between where you know you'd have some
capitalism and some socialism uh you
know the concept of a safety net uh came
out of socialist thinking the labor
party uh came out of the Fabian
socialists in Great Britain uh their
their logo was a wolf in sheep's
clothing and then when that was too on
the nose they changed it to a tortoise
meaning we're gonna get to socialism
slowly uh in the sense of either uh
gradualism or boiling a frog and also
the big part of this thinking at the
time this is again the late 19th century
is the idea that there's going to be a
worldwide workers Revolution it wasn't
going to be that you know in one country
you know it was going to happen and then
all the other countries be capitalists
the idea was all right uh like the
workers in Germany have more income with
the workers in America then the workers
in Germany have with the capitalists in
Germany so the idea is all right like
the working class all over the world at
one point they're going to be like we're
being exploited uh it's getting worse
and worse for us we can't feed our
families uh we're getting injured and so
on and so forth and there's no
compensation for this we're just going
to overthrow our chains and we're going
to run everything ourselves we're the
ones running it already anyway
um and you know this was uh doing all
the work and we're doing all the work so
why why shouldn't we be getting all the
benefit
what's the role of violence in all of
this
so this was a big source of contention
so the fabians for example in Britain
who are all socialists they were very
heavily of the idea that we can do this
through The Ballot Box we can Advocate
and agitate and get the people to be
voting for their own self-interest and
furthering the state at the expense of
the capitalist class then there were the
people who were the hardcore anarchists
who were like uh if voting changed
anything they wouldn't let us do it and
the only way to have a revolution is to
have a revolution to kill to overthrow
to seize these factories and this was a
big argument uh and it also fed into the
idea of where does Free Speech end uh
are is it legal to be giving speeches
advocating for violence and revolution
is illegal Johann most you know who I
discuss in the book and in the
anarchistan book he published a book in
1800s about how to build dynamite and
how to build bombs and this is a big
Free Speech concern at the time because
now anyone in their own house can make a
bomb and kill lots of people and this is
something that was happening with
enormous frequency at the time and
people tend to think you know because we
have these kind of prejudices or we only
remember what's happening now but this
was a I mean World War II well excuse me
World War One got started with the
assassination of Arctic Franz Ferdinand
there were lots of people McKinley's
another one who I discussed in the book
his assassination there was lots of
violence happening uh very regularly and
with the creation of dynamite it kind of
exponentially became more dangerous and
threatening even now on Wall Street
there was a bomb that went off I think
in the 1920s and the shards of shrapnel
are still in the JP Morgan building I
believe
do you ever think if you were alive
during that time what you would be doing
you think of yourself as an anarchist
right would you be where would you be
would you be a socialist a communist
which parties would you attend uh
figuratively and the thing that was so
interesting back then is there was a
woman named Mabel Dodge Luhan uh and she
ended her days in Taos New Mexico she
found an artist colony and she had an
apartment on 9th Ave 9th Street and
Fifth Avenue in Manhattan uh a shadow
salon and everyone got together and
talked and you'd have Emma Goldman who's
an anarchist Margaret Sanger who
invented Planned Parenthood and
advocated for birth control and you'd
have the people from the wobblies the
the hardcore labor unions and everyone
kind of at Shell menkin didn't attend
but he was friends with them all so
there was this very weird
with the birth of modernism in art and
and in kind of modernist thinking there
was this idea of like all right like
this was the first time where you could
be intellectual as a class where there
really was this space for people who are
thinkers and they just sat around being
like all right like what are we gonna do
with ourselves uh you know and you have
it in modern art you had it in
literature you had it in politics
um so it was a very exciting time where
people were like all right like
everything is now on the table what are
we gonna do with this and they very much
were aware that this was a break with
you know the pre-industrial revolution
uh kind of farmer labor era do you see
do you think for you violence would be
compelling no first of all I'm just too
small
um but second I I just Dynamite
doesn't care about your size yeah but I
mean retribution does and I I think I I
don't know but to me violence is the
kind of thing where you think you're
running it but it's running you uh once
you you know cross that line you know
violence sings its own song so whenever
I hear even contemporary tabs or people
are advocating for you know violent
actions it's like when you start a fire
you're not like I'm just gonna burn down
this house you know it's it's and
there's many cases over and over of
people who are building bombs or trying
to assassinate someone or or things like
that and it ended up literally literally
literally blowing up in their own face
so and violence doesn't really work
necessarily because you know if you have
an assassination you're not
assassinating the presidency you know if
you take out you know a president
there's another president instantly
there so what have you accomplished
someone's husband Dad is gone you
replace them with someone who now is in
a position to crack back down and
retaliate with even more violence so
it's it the the calculus for me Isn't
there would I be advocating if we're
then who knows
um but I mean I don't know if I'd uh be
able to space to be I certainly wouldn't
have the space to be a podcaster or like
a media personality that wasn't really a
thing it to some extent it was in the
1920s with the Algonquin Roundtable and
all the people from The New Yorker
magazine
um but they were all drunks you know it
was very much
um uh a weird kind of situation to be a
thinker what would you think you'd do
work at a carnival you look good in
lipsticks so thank you
um I look at anything
um what would I I don't know I mean
you're not building robots I mean you
could have been a Tesla right okay I
didn't mean a car I meant the person
like I understand oh thank you for
explaining the way he comments to me at
all because you went in Einstein because
your name he was an immigrant so I
wouldn't work with the name again what
does that even mean no you would have
been a Tesla like figure there's already
a Tesla so you wouldn't literally be
Tesla that's why I said a Tesla oh ah
Tesla okay so all right I thank you for
the explanation see Mike Michael doesn't
only make funny things he also explains
them for you it wasn't funny man's plays
them it wasn't funny at all that I agree
with okay
okay so yes when when you achieve see
this is my Kanye didn't like you it's
this
all right I'm I'm downgrading it from a
nine down to an eight
and if you keep talking like this
uh a five is a real possibility all
right so uh vacuum is the kind of vacuum
that's created with violence is is
usually
um filled with like a with a harsh with
a harsher figure so so you don't think
violent revolution ultimately leads to a
positive Pro positive progress in the
short term well sometimes it does the
American Revolution I think was a
positive example and overthrowing the
Czar which was done peacefully uh was a
positive example but again uh when
violence happens people get scared and
they want the violence stopped
immediately and that's a call for
authoritarianism and you see it time and
time again and and they also want
retribution they were like bring this
back to normal uh and they don't really
worry about things like civil liberties
or things like that it's it's a very uh
uh and then it also creates this space
for Invasion from foreign sources or
demagogues you know like oh look they're
killing us in the streets now you got to
support me it's it's a very uh
deadly game obviously I remember
somebody told me
that uh I forget where it was but they
told me that from the very beginning was
obvious that communism is an evil system
that would or a system that leads to
evil
and uh to me at least that's not if I
had to put put myself in the beginning
of the 20th century at the end of the
19th century that's totally not obvious
they are
trying to elevate Humanity the the basic
worth of a human being of a hard-working
human being of the working class of the
people that are doing the work and the
striving and just uh really trying to
build up Society with their own hands
and she seems like a beautiful ideal uh
so I guess the question is
can you see yourself believing in that
in in the ideas of socialism and
communism yeah let's say if you were
living in Russia oh yeah easily so first
of all I I don't think anything is
obvious in politics uh it's not obvious
that you know uh humans have rights it's
not obvious that Liberty is better or
the Market's either either whether
you're for you know a welfare state or
you're for more free markets not that
those is obvious both of them involve an
enormous amount of thought and
background information so when someone
says something is obvious in politics
they really mean something is apparent
well it's not a parent on its face that
if we all get together and promote a
society based on equality and we all
chip in that it's gonna really be good
for everyone I mean that to me is the
promise of Communism
um and it was also very appealing to
many people because it was new
so the idea was all right we've tried it
these other ways there's all these
negative consequences you have all these
slums you have people getting you know
fired and then they have no recourse you
have women with 10 kids and they can't
feed their kids infant mortality you
don't have sanitation you don't have
food you know everyone's illiterate and
uneducated and then here's saying look
if we all chip in together everyone will
have clothes everyone have food everyone
will be educated everyone will do their
part it's going to be rough in the short
period that's a very compelling
case to be made for communism it's
really easy in many ways when something
hasn't been tried to make it sound
uh compelling because you just talk
about how great it's going to be and
then no one no one you know people are
always arguing about like Venezuela and
Sweden like oh we you know you want
Democratic socialism to be like Sweden
you don't want to be like Venezuela the
Venezuelans didn't vote for Venezuela
they voted for Sweden they ended up with
Venezuela so it's I think
and the thing with Communism especially
at that era it was very much a
correlated with uh people who are too
smart for their own good because they
had the idea that if we're just put in
charge instead of these like business
people or these heirs to Great Estates
if the people who are smart and get it
like us I don't mean you and me like the
people at the time who are advocating
for it once we're in charge since we're
good people and we want what's best for
everyone
um we're gonna make sure everyone's
taken care of and you know they always
talked about how much they cared about
the little guy and so I'm sure some of
them meant it a lot and they're like
look if the guy in charge is very much
concerned with the little guy he's not
going to slip between the cracks and
it's just going to be absolutely great
um and we don't have to worry about you
know uh you know the capitalist class
just basically exploiting people and
having these huge Estates while these
people can't even feed their own
families since we have a little bit of
momentum Can you steal me on the case
for socialism at that time and even
today
I don't know if it's
I don't know if there's a rhyme and uh
similarity to those to socialism as
implemented at that time and what could
possibly be implemented today but maybe
you can dance between the two the Steel
Man arguing for socialism is
if you have everything up to Private
Industry you do not have a guarantee
that someone won't fall between the
cracks and the other concern is in any
other context if someone is let's
suppose mentally ill right through no
fault of their own and they are or
someone's handicapped you know they
can't feed themselves or mentally
disabled or something like that
if you have everything up to charity
some if this you see this with like
endangered species right the species
that are cute it's easy to raise money
for them to protect them some weird kind
of frog somewhere that no one cares
about you can't raise money for it
there's people's interests are to what
they find interesting so if someone is
someone who's like not socially
appealing in some way whatever capacity
they're going to fall between the cracks
and they're screwed under socialism if
you have a government taking care of
everything no one is Left Behind you are
guaranteed that the lowest of the low
and the worst of the worst are still
going to make sure that they're not
starving the street or uh just left
behind so that is a big moral case to be
made for having the state running
everything in terms of economics it's a
lot harder but the argument there would
be it's why it's it's not fair a term
which in my view does not actually have
a good meaning but it's not fair that
because you were born a Rockefeller and
I was born in Poland that you never have
to worry about food for the rest of your
life whereas I have to worry about you
know paying for a doctor for my kid like
you just you won this Lottery when
you're born and now I have to be screwed
and have to respect all your property
why so
um that is another strong argument to be
made for socialism and the other
argument is if you have a media
apparatus that is operated under
profit-seeking principles it is going to
feed into people's worst
qualities most basic animal-like
qualities and sensationalist qualities
and will be used as a mechanism for
capitalist control whereas if the
government which represents all of this
all of us is running things then
everyone will have a right to have their
voice heard and won't be manipulated
that's the argument what about the
reaching towards the stateless version
sort of uh because you espouse the ideas
of anarchism it kind of has the same
conclusion which is reaching towards the
removal of the state to where we I guess
have
uh some distributed reallocation of
resources that are quote unquote fair
but the thing is the the Marxist vision
of the state withering away and uh
becoming anarchism it's really kind of
like um The Underpants Gnomes because
it's like tell me more well step one you
have Mark Tell Me Slowly
I'm sorry you have full communism the
state's running everything including
education step two question mark step
three anarchism so their idea was that
after enough time
the nature of man himself was going to
change changed and then the government
would be Superfluous because we would
all be uh equal and we would all
naturally or socially whatever term they
would use want to act the part that we
would need to do and in fact Reagan had
a great joke about this where there were
two where uh there were two comma Stars
I think in Moscow and one of them
they're walking around they're going is
this it uh is this have we done it have
we reached full communism the other goes
oh no it's going to get a hell of a lot
worse so you know that's kind of the
counter argument to that
do you think
culture Society can change the nature of
man no
so no matter you don't think this idea
that uh for example America has been
founded on that all men are created to
equal
that that idea can't permeate the
culture and in thereby change how we see
each other how we
think of the basic worth of a human
being and thereby change our nature it
doesn't change that's epigenetic I don't
think that that changes the nature of
man I think for example if I say someone
which I agree with that if someone is
innocent so proven guilty they're not
literally innocent they're regarded in a
legal context as innocent but that
person is or is not a murderer or thief
or so on and so forth so we can
legally and ethically regard everyone as
equal but as Thomas sull pointed out a
human being isn't even equal to himself
over the course of a day twins who are
genetic clones are not equal to one
another so it is a important thing
legally and it's a good yardstick but
it's not literally true but don't you
think that law becomes ethics so we
um
we that like idea of Justice starts to
like we start to internalize it that we
just
the way we behave the way we think about
the world no I I I think it's a complete
red herring because no one is no you're
a red herring okay see what I did there
um
because
someone is people are still going to
always prefer their family to strangers
or they're in group to our group so in
terms of you're going to have equality
that means it's going to not matter to
you whether someone is your mom or
someone is you know someone down the
street and I don't see how that will
ever become the case do you think it
would be possible if you were an
intellectual
uh like you are at the beginning of the
20th century would you be able to
predict the rest of the 20th century no
I I don't think at all I think there
were so many
um
out of nowhere turns that no one would
have seen their them coming for and as
an example
um Lenin seizing power and making the
Bolshevik Revolution a reality was
regarded as utopian and insane uh the
fact that he pulled it off is close to
miraculous and it was quite literally
unprecedented
um the fact that so that's a very big
one which aspect of it sorry to
interrupt which aspect was hard to
predict that a singular figure with just
some ideas would be able to take so much
power and and maintain that power and
remake that Society so drastically so
quickly despite such opposition also not
just a set of temporary protests by
Hooligans that lead to
um turmoil in the short term but then
stabilizes but literally changes the
entirety of the society yeah lutendorff
it was the German general he's like all
right we got to get this the Russians
out of world war one he's the one who's
like all right let's get this lunatic
Lenin who already tried and failed to
have a Revolution in Russia let's send
them back there and he's just gonna
cause problems to everybody and it's
gonna be great because it's gonna weaken
Russia and then our Eastern Front isn't
going to have to be a problem and then
to his surprise and everyone else is
including you know anarchists and
Communists worldwide uh they pulled off
this you know October Revolution and
then for a while it's like all right I
mean I mean I think my understanding is
even people at the time in St Petersburg
and in Moscow were like what does this
even mean right like no one took it
seriously and then very quickly you had
the checkout and and the secret police
and all these other kind of
implementations of the you know the
communist state and people like oh
they're not messing around but they're
like all right this is this is not going
to last for for long and you know the
USA the US and day we didn't even
recognize the Soviet Union's legitimacy
for a very long time there were no
diplomatic relations after certain point
it's like who's the if you don't
recognize Lenin and Stalin's government
who's the government of this of Russia
or the Soviet Union is it the Czar like
you have to recognize that it's just
they're not going anywhere so that was
something that was not I I think very
predictable the Great Depression in
retrospect there were certain things
that were predictable but it was not at
all the case that it needed to last as
long as it did in the states as FDR made
it do so there's all sorts of things I
mean if they uh um
fought Germany's re-militarization near
World War World War II could have been
prevented if you didn't have the Treaty
of Versailles would you have the
hyperinflation would you have Hitler
these are all I think Choose Your Own
Adventure moments where things could
have gone in other directions I don't
believe this kind of idea this is very
Marxist idea that like history is
inevitable and once you start with
certain premises the contradictions kind
of unfold I think it's ridiculous I feel
that there's power in the Santa Claus
outfit yeah I mean it's a fundamentally
communist idea right Santa Claus
arbitrary redistribution of wealth it's
not redistribution well at least I
decide who's good and bad only I only I
know this
and I mean I am somehow getting funding
from somewhere right no
okay listen there's I have so much to
teach you you have a word little Michael
Workshop yeah and how many people do you
think are employed in this Workshop
they're slaves yes I don't know how many
elves are in the workshop uh I think the
rest of you are gonna have to look into
it no anyway in the red colors and
everything is that the biggest holiday
of all time Christmas like just in terms
of
the intensity of the festivities no I
think Christmas is a very recent
phenomenon I think historically it was
not a big deal now I know historical has
not been but in terms of
how much it captivates how intense it is
I guess from a capitalist perspective
like how much is going on how visual it
is how intense it is I think it grabs a
whole population I think it's because
the idea of Christmas is probably the
one of the most powerful holiday ideas
uh Easter is probably up there is
there's obviously up there because you
have Christ resurrect Christ dying his
resurrection so that's kind of a big one
but but Christmas is the symbol of
Brotherhood and kindness and magnanimity
you know one of the things I despise
about our culture is this glory and
something I'm fighting very heavily with
this book or at least attempting to is
this glorification of cynicism
this kind of like oh you like this song
that's cute stupid
um whereas Christmas is the one time of
year where you could be happy and joyous
and kind and people don't get to roll
their eyes at you they get to stop being
too cool for school and they get to be
like you know I enjoy your friendship
your your my sister my brother my dad my
mom whatever and it's the you know I was
Iran's favorite holiday I adore it and
especially Christmas in New York and
it's just this idea of like even though
we're called and it's dark outside you
know it's still it's kind of like it's
still cozy and you and the next let's
hope the next year is because with with
Russians Santa comes on New Year's so
it's kind of like let's make this next
year an even better one so it's very
much the holiday of Hope and joy
and like love for family for friendship
and kindness and benevolence yeah and
like almost the whole that whole rat
race of uh chasing material possessions
and all that gets put on hold for beef
moment it just all goes quiet but it's
also about giving people material
possessions like here like I value you
this is something that brings you Joy
yeah yeah you write in the book which by
the way
people should go get by right now if you
support this podcast or if you support
the ridiculous office that Michaels wear
wears the more books you buy the more
outfits he is going to wear I've got two
my next two appearances in the show
assuming I don't burn this bridge I've
got some good ones this bridge
has been burning for a long time we've
been going across the road by Kent canoe
at this point next time we're going to
be swimming
um how the hell are you gonna swim
yeah that's true sink to the bottom get
dragged across by rope okay you write in
the book cynics like to lie and call
themselves realists hoping for positive
outcomes can thus be dismissed as being
naive or utopian can you elaborate on
this point just like you said right now
I mean
it seems like a
I don't know if it's a fundamental
characteristic of our society today or
just societies throughout history but
there is a cynicism you write in the
Soviet Union it was a really there's a
deep cynicism that was good at the end
yeah
um and but there is a cynicism today as
well at least in like public discourse
yes why does it happen and how can we
fight it
um I think it is easy
to be like everything sucks uh you know
I had my friend Lux um she was a a
vlogger and she was an author she had
this great line because you know we
worked in media and she's like if you're
at a party and someone starts talking
about a new app or website and you don't
want anything about it just say oh I was
on that for a while it sucked and that's
all you need to say I'm like look that's
a great line but I I think it is and
especially I'm sure you had to you
experienced this as well with your
family I certainly did with mine there
is this idea especially in Russian
culture but in American culture to some
extent as well where if you have Aspira
aspirations I remember there was this
show called Russian dolls it was
oh I just got it like the matrushka okay
I just got it that's the name okay the
show is called Russian dolls it was
about Brighton Beach which is the
Russian Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn
it was supposed to be their version of
Jersey Shore it was a lifetime and it
had no ratings and I remember the last
four episodes they had to burn them so
they just ran it through like 8 A.M to
10 am one day and there was this one
scene where the when the girls I forgot
her name probably Natalia and she'd been
in college
and she had been
wondering what you want to major in
right and I this story was so perfect
I'm sure I've told it before and she
took an aptitude test and she went with
her mom to get like mani pedis or
something and she goes mom you know I've
had like 80 Majors I didn't know what I
wanted to do and she goes I took this
after test it really made sense to me I
am gonna go to law school I want to be a
lawyer and it's something I enjoy and
the first thing out of her mom's mouth
is how you're gonna pay for it and the
girl and I really related because if you
didn't have this Russian upbringing you
watched it you would think her reaction
was completely insane she just lost it
just screaming she's like people pay for
law school all the time I'll figure out
a way why is your first reaction to look
for a problem why is your first response
to be like oh wait are you sure you've
thought this through I have been
struggling with one problem for years
what I wanted to do for a living and now
like as soon as I solve this one big
problem of identity your first reaction
is like let's find a new problem why is
that Europe instead of let's figure out
how we're gonna pay for it and that kind
of approach is so
uh deadly and it it gnaws at you and I
always I don't like giving people advice
because I'm who the hell am I and also
if I don't know the context of the
problem I'm not informed enough to give
advice but this is piece of advice that
I do for Comfort giving if you are
someone who has around you people who as
soon as you have any accomplishment or
any hope that their first reaction is to
be like well what about this you have to
get rid of them or sit them down maybe
give them a chance because that is
something that is such so demoralizing
and it drains you and it's like you know
the example I've used all the time all
the time all the time I say if you want
to be an author right you can go to any
bookstore and look at all the shitty
shitty books like the white pill and you
could say to yourself I could be this
shitty author you don't have to be
having right so people should buy your
book just to know which it doesn't take
much it really does not take much shitty
writing is all about
and boring yeah you could just pick a
random random period in history and just
write a bunch of crap about it yes and
put a pretty stamp on the cover and just
go it was pretty yeah yeah but I mean
like like for you right like not you
don't I don't mean you left batteries by
the Wolves the wolf Bots there's lots of
stand-up comedians who aren't Jerry
Seinfeld yeah right if you want to be a
podcaster you don't have to be Joe Rogan
you could be someone who's got a medium
audience and are enjoying it so like the
idea that like something has to be
you have to be a massive Superstar or
you're a failure is also ridiculous but
that's cynicism
I mean you can even be a failed comedian
like Dave Smith uh yeah I don't
um this is a generic name I came up with
as an example
um I think he has like a podcast of some
kind he said I like it yeah not very
funny I don't know why you would call
himself a comedian but uv's being ironic
um don't you think yeah so even even
then you could do something special I
remember what you did with me in the
movie theater what's that
I don't is oh you continue can you
explain the jokes because I can't no I'm
not explaining jokes I'm wearing
lipstick it's not enough
now I remember what you did to me in a
movie theater and you wore lipsticks
that night too not when I was done
people for sure will think this this
feels like a gay porn
like like a very long intro because
we're not wearing pants yes there's many
reasons why this feels like this and the
outfits and just everything about this
uh how would you know I my friend I have
stories I thought you know I thought I
don't have friends
they're all suspiciously named either
Lex or Lux or some variation like you
lack complete creativity
just like in the writing or locks yeah
it's it's like you you didn't even use
like a thesaurus for your book the same
words over and over and over uh the the
sad thing about the cynicism is like
I don't think it's just a Russian thing
I I think the people let me just because
I didn't finish what you were saying
earlier in America it's not just a
Russian thing in American culture
if you have like a sitcom or a musical
it's regarded as less legitimate than a
drama right like if something's got to
be about someone's struggling or
someone's suffering whereas this is like
a joyous happy story like maybe
something like Pixar right like sure
they have conflict and they're going for
something but it's overall the
background the universe is taking in is
very joyous and happy that is regarded
artistically as less legitimate than
something which is dark and and the
background is Despair and that very
subtly sends a very to me pernicious
message that the you know that what's
real is Despair and happiness is the
aberration and I think if you have that
as your mindset you're setting yourself
up for maybe not failure but certainly
not happiness
yeah but that that's in the the figures
the ideas that the culture elevates but
at the local personal life of parents
and teachers that still happens a lot in
Russia and here just my whole life
especially because I'm a weirdo
I've been kind of told to
um
basically be less weird
be uh
um
there's a kind of
sense and where there's a certain path
you're supposed to take in life
and every time you have a little bit of
success on those very specifically
defined paths you're pushed to do more
and more and more on those paths as
opposed to celebrating the full
complexity of the weirdo that each one
of us is and I certainly am and I just
teachers even friends
and certainly family
have constantly been
um very cynical about
um my aspirations my dreams and so on
um
I think that actually created a deeply
self-critical engine in my brain
that I think It ultimately was
productive
because it was also
um
balanced by just an internal maybe
through genetics thing I have of
optimism about the world of just seeing
the beauty in the world but it is weird
looking back how much the how much
people that love me were trying to uh
bring me down yeah so strange it's also
very hurtful for me because when I
graduated college it was important for
me to be self-made and not take money
from my family and I remember my grandma
this was a huge argument an ongoing
argument and one time she you know as we
were leaving as she was leaving my house
she slipped money in under the door and
I threw it out and it made me so angry
um or like one year for my birthday she
gave me I think like 500 which was a lot
of money you know when you're like 22 or
23 and I was so pissed because that
told me that they didn't believe that
I'd be able to feed myself or make it on
my own and I understand their their
mindset but it's like I'm not I wasn't
you know I never was never hungry like
maybe I couldn't I remember I'd have to
wait on the subway because I couldn't
afford a cab
um so but that was a sacrifice I had to
make you know I had to wait that half
hour so it was a huge source and remains
a source of enormous uh tension and
contention and I think also I'm sure
speaking to your upbringing in their
minds unless you're going into an office
you can't pay the rent it doesn't make
sense
um so but there's just like you said
forget the office forget all that no
matter what
there's always whatever you accomplish
in life you always do you're always uh
negative about your current position
you always come up with another problem
just like you said it's always a it's
like a self-generating problem box yeah
I remember I didn't speak to my dad for
a few years then I'm like let me give
this guy another chance and in that time
period Harvey picar the author of uh
subject of American Splendor of the
movie and author of the series comic
books he and I became friends and he was
writing a graphic novel about me
and when I met with my Dad I'm like oh
uh someone's writing a book about me and
he goes I know so and it was one of
those moments where I'm like wow you're
an asshole and not the kind of asshole I
am you're just like not a good person
and I don't know or really at this point
care what the motivation or if there was
no motivation with the visceral
emotional reasoning for that but that
kind of thing is something I
you know much later now in life have
absolutely no tolerance for well my in
my own private life I try to forgive and
love those people but it is uh there
have been a few in my life like this and
I think they are they are incredible
people if you allow yourself to see it
but they're flawed and so
I tried to forgive them that said it is
true that uh the people that are close
to you especially family have a
disproportionate psychological effect on
you so you have to be very careful
having them in your life too much like
one thing is to love them
and the other is to actually you know
allow yourself to flourish surround
yourself with people that help you
flourish and like you said the advice
there is is really powerful especially
early on to have people that believe in
you in whatever crazy Big Dreams you
have they pat you on the back and say
you got this kid and and so value here's
the other thing
if you try
and you don't make it to that Rogan
level it's okay
like I have several books that I've
written that are on my hard drive that
have not been published and there were a
lot of work and it was really
disappointing when they went out and no
Publishers were interested in maybe I'll
publish them maybe I won't point being
it's fine I tried it's like a romance
novel one is one is a a romance no does
that have a Santa a guy in a scent
outfit okay you know can you please stop
asking me to send you gay pornography
he's calling me up all hours of the
night I need more gay porn I need some
ones I only have zeros yeah uh Never
Enough no I never enough this one almost
got a book jail this was it would have
been it was 16 years ago it was a ladlit
novel
um what kind of Novel ladlet it's like
The Corned Beef what the corn B about a
boy so there was a little mini genre of
these books about young men trying to
struggle their way through it's a whole
little there's a whole little series
then Fight Club uh is adjacent to that
uh it's not literally ladle it
um I feel like you would write a great
Fight Club type novel no you know fight
club's much and Chuck Paul and it's my
understanding admitted this fight Club
is one of the few things where the movie
is better than the book
oh that's interesting
but but the movie's so iconic yeah for
sure but but still isn't there a deeply
like philosophical it's kind of like
David Foster Wallace novels isn't
doesn't it doesn't Fight Club capture
some moment in time that's very kind of
I was hanging with Kurt Metzger a couple
weeks ago comedian very failed name drop
yeah hey Kurt watch out and he was he
had this great story he was hanging with
Patricia Neal the late comedian name
drop with the great comics of all time
and
uh Patrice goes Kurt was talking about
how much she liked the book or the movie
Fight Club and Patrice is like that is
the whitest book on Earth he goes your
problem in life is you don't have enough
violence in your private life you need
someone to beat you up that's not a
problem for me
yeah it wasn't I mean but still it it is
a very white book but it it still
captures a kind of anger and it angst
and a certain subculture in society yes
that's really powerful that probably led
to
in some parts of the thing you uh wrote
about and then you write oh for sure I
mean it was this kind of like there's
that line in the movie where uh um
Edward Norton says I'm a 30 year old boy
this kind of question of what is it
sorry to be Matt Walsh but what does it
mean to be a man right what does
masculinity mean what are why are so
many men so at such a young age feeling
so lost uh this idea that like if I fill
my house with nice furniture that's
still not going to be fulfilling to
anyone who met what who's Matt Walsh is
um he's from the daily wire he just did
a documentary called what is a woman can
you explain I don't know who he is so
Matt Walsh is someone who works for the
daily wire yes and he just recently did
a documentary called what is a woman I
think it was called and he went out to
lots of people working in gender Theory
and uh well that's thing and he asked
them to Define he went to the Maasai in
Africa the tribe and to talk to people
about transgenderism non-binary which is
a word I know you hate and the
documentary was a
um surprisingly well done is that like a
passive aggressive compliment
surprisingly well done well because Matt
is very
um aggressive on Twitter uh sure we
follow each other and
there was a lot of opportunities in this
film for him to really be like and
instead to his credit he let the people
speak and it it's possible is edit a
certain way of course it was obviously
edited but when he's just asked them can
you just Define a woman for me and
playing dumb we're not playing dumb just
saying what's your opinion a lot of the
people he was speaking to were getting
extremely uh agitated so it worked in
that kind of context as well it was not
his usual Style
speaking of which do you ever regret
your behavior on Twitter
there were a couple of times but very
rarely
can you describe the big strategy before
we dive back into the October Revolution
uh my strategy do you have a strategy or
is it does it come from the heart or
does it come from the brain
it comes from I want to have fun
that's literally what it comes down to
it's like this is Girls Just Want to
Have Fun
are you drunk what is it what are you
what is in there
I'm very cheeky I'm I have the holiday
spirit even though it's not the holidays
oh that's eggnog Delirious I did not
sleep much last night I've been uh which
is I think the second time we talked or
the third time the second time I I
stayed up almost all night oh I know I
keep track of when you come and go yeah
so my door camera points at your garage
so I know when you're leaving or coming
home my camera points at your bedroom
from the inside but I shouldn't have
told you that now let me ask you this
because if something's been bothering me
yes there was a chair that you threw out
yep and it's broken and I was looking at
my camera and I'm like let me see when
he threw this out and then one time you
went to the garbage and you adjusted it
to make it stick out of the garbage even
more what were you doing there
uh was I oh
to make sure that people know there's a
chair in there is that really what you
did well like the garbage person so they
know it's the chair so they don't get
like I I always think I don't want them
to get like hurt or whatever oh okay
like they open the thing it's like uh
chair I don't know I don't know what I
was thinking okay it was really odd I
didn't know how to get rid of a chair it
was broken it was like cracked and I
didn't it was uh it was a Twitter for me
I my point is to have fun it's also fun
to kind of smack down people who I
regard as Bad actors
um and also kind of to promote news that
I find interesting that maybe isn't as
prominently part of the culture as it
might otherwise be do you think
sometimes you draw too broadly the
category of people that are Bad actors
and then some thereby
sort of adding to the
the mockery and the cynicism in the
world I don't think mockery and cynicism
are at all synonymous I think cynicism
means everyone sucks I don't think
everyone sucks I think uh it is
undeniable that a lot of people suck
what if I told you most people don't
suck
could you could you
could you steal me in the case that most
people sure I can do it in a cynical way
honestly it's quite a cynical way but I
think most people are neither here nor
there
uh most people just kind of go with the
flow
um they're amiable human beings are
social creatures they want to get along
uh they don't want to cause problems
they don't have the capacity to be the
target of a problem so most people I
mean if people if most people sucked
then going anywhere would be
excruciating ordeal right like literally
and like the airport's annoying but if
most people sucked it would really be
annoying you know go in the supermarket
would be really annoying so I don't
think most people suck but I do think
that in public discourse there are lots
of people who are dishonest about their
agenda for example if I'm you know I
could be a
someone who has promoting a certain
ideology but I'm in the payroll of a
candidate or you know my Think Tank
needs this to happen or I'm being paid
for some something like that so that
sort of thing I think happens all the
time there's the line I have in the book
Upton Sinclair uh I forgot how he he
worked exactly but it's very hard to
convince someone of something if his
payroll depends on him not being
convinced of it right so I think things
like that are uh the thing I'm really
excited about with what elon's doing
with Twitter and I I'm just ecstatic
about this is to have the context now so
you'll have a politician making