Kind: captions
Language: en
you could by literally whatever else you
wanted you could post things drugs you
could buy heroin write it from
Afghanistan the good stuff hacking tools
you could hack for hire you could buy
murders for hire
the following is a conversation with
Chris Tarbell a former FBI special agent
and cyber crime specialist who tracked
down and arrested Russ Albert the leader
of Silk Road the billion dollar drug
Marketplace and he tracked down and
arrested Hector massager AKA Sabu of
lolsek and Anonymous which is some of
the most influential hacker groups in
history he is co-founder of naxo a
complex cyber crime investigation firm
and is a co-host of a podcast called The
Hacker and the Fed
this conversation gives the perspective
of the FBI cybercrime investigator both
the technical and the human story I
would also like to interview people on
the other side the Cyber criminals who
have been caught and perhaps the Cyber
criminals who have not been caught and
are still out there
this is Alex Friedman podcast to support
it please check out our sponsors in the
description and now dear friends here's
Chris Tarbell
you are one of the most successful cyber
security law enforcement agents of all
time you tracked and brought down Russ
Albrecht AKA dread pirate robbers who
ran Silk Road and
Sabu of LOL SEC and Anonymous who was
one of the most influential hackers in
the world so first can you tell me the
story of jacking down Ross Albrecht and
Silk Road let's start from the very
beginning and maybe let's start by
explaining what is the Silk Road it was
really the first uh dark Market website
um you literally could buy anything
there well
to go back you could there's two things
you couldn't buy there you couldn't buy
guns because that was a different
website uh and you couldn't buy fake
degrees so no one could become a doctor
but you could buy literally whatever
else you wanted you could post things
drugs you could buy a heroin right from
Afghanistan the good stuff uh hacking
tools you could hack for hire you could
buy murders For Hire if you wanted
someone killed now so
when I was an FBI agent I had to kind of
sell some of these cases and this was a
big drug case you know that's the way
people saw Silk Road so internally to
the FBI how I had to sell it I had to
find the worst thing on there that I
could possibly find and I think one time
I saw a posting for uh baby parts
so let's say that you you know had a
young child and that needed a liver you
could literally go on there and ask for
a six month old liver uh if you wanted
to for like surgical operations versus
something darker yeah I never saw
anything that dark as far as people like
wanted to eat body parts yeah um I did
interview a cannibal once when I was in
the FBI that's another crazy story but
uh but that one actually weirded me out
so I just watched uh Jeffrey Dahmer uh
documentary on Netflix and it just
changed the way I see human beings
because it's a it's a portrayal of a
normal looking person
doing uh really dark things and doing so
not out of a place of insanity seemingly
but just because he has almost like a
fetish for that kind of thing he's
disturbing the people like that are out
there
so people like that would then be using
Silk Road not like that necessarily but
people of different walks of life
abusing Silk Road to primarily what was
the Prime primary thing drugs it was
primarily drugs and that's where it
started it started off with Ross
Albrecht growing mushrooms out in the
wilderness of California and selling
them but really his was more of a
Libertarian Viewpoint I mean it was like
you choose what you want to do for
yourself and do it and in the way Silk
Road kind of had the anonymity is it
used what's called Tor or the onion
router which is an anonymizing uh
function on uh on the Deep Web it was
actually invented by the U.S Navy back
in the mid 90s or so but it also used
cryptocurrency so it was the first time
like we saw this birth on the internet
uh mixing cryptocurrency uh and uh an IP
blocking software so you know in cyber
crime you go after one the IP address
and trace it through the network or two
you go after the cash and this one kind
of blocked both cash me meaning the flow
of money physical or digital and then IP
is the some kind of identifying thing of
the computer it's your telephone number
for on your computer so yeah all
computers have you know a unique uh for
octet uh numbers you know it's a one two
three dot one two three dot one two
three dot one two three and you know the
computer uses DNS or domain name
services to to render that name so if
you're looking for you know CNN.com your
computer then translates that to that IP
address or that telephone number where
it can find that information didn't sell
called used to have guns in the
beginning or was that considered to have
guns or was did it naturally emerge and
then Ross realized like this is not good
it went back and forth uh I think there
were guns on there and he tried to
police it
um you know he uh he told himself the
captain of the boat so he had to follow
his rules so you know I think you took
off those posts eventually and moved
guns elsewhere what was the system of
censorship that he used like selecting
what is okay and not okay I mean it's
alone he's the captain of the boat do
you know by chance if there was uh a lot
of debates and criticisms internally
amongst the criminals of what is and
isn't allowed I mean it's interesting to
see a totally different moral code
emerge that's outside the legal code of
society we did get the the server and
was able to read all of the chat logs
that what that happened I mean all the
records were there
um I don't remember big debates I mean
there was a clear leadership yeah and
that was the final decision that was the
the CEO of Silk Road and so primarily
was drugs and primarily out of an
ideology of Freedom which is uh if you
want to use drugs you should be able to
use drugs you should put in your body
what you want to put in your body and
when you are presenting a case of why
this should be investigated you're
trying to find as you mentioned the
worst possible things on there is that
what you were saying so we had arrested
a guy named Jeremy Hammond and he hit
himself he was a hacker and he this
would be arrested him it's the second
time he had been arrested for for
hacking uh he used Tor
um and so that kind of brought us to a
point
um the FBI has a computer system where
you look up things uh you know you look
up anything I can look up your name or
whatever if you're associated with my
case
and we were finding at the time a lot of
things in you look it up the case would
end be like oh this is tor it just
stopped like we didn't get any further
yeah so you know we had just had this
big arrest of uh Sabu and took down
Anonymous and and sometimes in the FBI
um the way it used the old school FBI
when you had a big case and you're
working seven days a week and 14 hours
15 hours a day
you sort of take a break the boss kind
of said yeah I've seen a few months go
go get to know your family a little bit
you know and come back but
the group of guys I was with was like
let's find the next big Challenge and
that's when we were finding you know
case closed it was tour case closed it
was tour so said let's take a look at
touring let's see what we can do maybe
we'll take a different approach and Silk
Road was being looked at by other law
enforcement
um but it was taking like a drug
approach where I'm going to find a drug
buyer who got you know the drug sent to
them in the mail and let's arrest up
let's go up the chain but the buyers
didn't know their dealers they never met
them and so you were taking a cyber
security approach yeah we said let's try
to look at this from a cyber approach
and see if we can uh gleam anything out
of it so I'm actually
indirectly connected
to I'm I'm sure I'm not admitting
anything that's not already on my FBI
file oh I can already tell you what
you're going to tell me though what's
that the when you were at College you
wrote a paper and you're connected to
the person that started you said I'm a
bitch you clever son of a bitch I'm an
FBI Jenner a former FB agent how would I
not no but I could have told you other
stuff is what you were about to tell me
I was looking up his name because I
forgot it so one of my advisors for my
PhD was Rachel greenstat and she is
married to Roger Dingle dine which is
the co-founder of the tour project and
actually reached out to him last night
to do a hotel podcast together I don't
know these uh
no it was a good it was a good party
trick I mean it was just cool that you
know this and the timing of it it was
just like beautiful but
um just a link around the on the tour
project
so we understand it's a tour is this um
black box that people disappear in
uh in terms of like the when you were
tracking people
can you paint a picture of what tours
used in general other
it's like uh when you talk about Bitcoin
for example cryptocurrency especially
today much more people use it for legal
activity versus illegal activity what
about tour
was originally invented by the U.S Navy
so that like spies inside countries
could talk to spies and no one could
find them
um there was no way of tracing them and
then they released that information free
to the world so Tor has two different
versions of not versions two different
ways it can be utilized there's dot
onion sites which is like a normal
website a.com but it's only found within
the Tor Browser you can only get there
if you know the whole address and get
there the other way Tor is used is to go
through the internet and then come out
the other side if you want a different
IP address if you're trying to hide your
identity so if you were doing like say
cyber crime I would have the victim
computer and I would trace it back out
to a tour relay and then because you
don't have an active connection or
what's called a circuit at the time I
wouldn't be able to trace it back but
even if you had an active circuit I
would have to go to each machine
physically live and try to rebuild that
which is literally impossible so what do
you feel about Tor ethically
philosophically as a human being on this
world that uh spent quite a few years of
your life and still trying to protect
people
so part of my time in the FBI was
working on child exploitation Kitty porn
as they call it
um that really changed my life in a way
and so anything that helps facilitate
the exploitation of children
fucking pisses me off and I I I and that
sort of jaded my opinion towards towards
tour because that because it it helps
facilitate those sites so this ideal of
Freedom that Russell Albert for example
uh tried to embody is something that you
um don't connect with anymore because
of what you've seen that ideal being
used for
I mean the child exploitation is a
specific example for it you know and
it's I can it's easy for me to sit here
and say child expert child porn because
no one listening to this is ever going
to say that I'm wrong and that we should
allow child porn
um should because some people utilize it
in a bad way should it go away
um no I mean I'm a technologist I want
technology to move forward
um you know
people are going to do bad things and
they're going to use technology to help
them do bad things
well let me ask you then oh we'll jump
around a little bit but the things you
were able to do
in tracking down information and we'll
get to it there's some suspicion that
this was only possible with mass
surveillance like with NSA for example
first of all is there any truth to that
and second of all what do you feel are
the pros and cons of mass surveillance
there is no truth to that and then my
feelings on mass surveillance if there
was would you tell me probably not but
I love this conversation so much but
what do you feel about the given that
you said child porn
what are the pros and cons of
surveillance at a society level
I mean nobody wants to give up their
privacy I say that I say no one wants to
give up their privacy but I mean I used
to have to get a search warrant to look
inside your house yeah or I can just log
on to your Facebook and you've got
pictures of all inside your house and
what's going on I mean it's not you know
so people like the idea of not giving up
their privacy
um but they do it anyways they're giving
away their freedoms all the time they're
they're carrying watches that gives out
their heartbeat a weight of companies
that are storing that I mean what's more
personal than your heartbeat so I I
think people
and mass really want to protect their
privacy and I would say most people
don't really need to protect their
privacy but the case against Mass
surveillance is that if you want to
criticize the government
in a very difficult time you should be
able to do it
so when you need the freedom you should
have it so when you wake up one day and
realize there's something going wrong
wrong with the country I love I want to
be able to uh to help the the one of the
great things about
the United States of America is there's
that individual revolutionary Spirit
like so that the the government doesn't
become too powerful you can always
protest there's always the best of the
ideal of freedom of speech you can
always say fuck you to the man and I
think there's a concern of direct or
indirect suppression of that through
Mass surveillance you might not
is that that little subtle fear that
grows with time that uh why you know why
bother criticizing the government it's
going to be a headache I'm going to get
a ticket every time I say something bad
that kind of thing so it gets out you
can get out of hand the bureaucracy
grows and the freedom slip away because
that's the that's the criticism right I
completely see your point I agree with
it I mean but I mean on the other side
people criticize the government of these
freedoms but I mean tech companies are
talking about destroying your privacy
and controlling what you can say I
realize they're private platforms and
you they can decide what's on their
platform but you know they're taking
away your freedoms of what you can say
and we've heard certain some things
where maybe government officials were in
line with uh with tech companies to take
away some of that freedom and that's I
agree with you that gets scary yeah
there's something about government that
feels
maybe because of the history of human
civilization maybe because tech
companies are a new thing but just
knowing the history of abuses of
government
if there's something about government
that enables the corrupting nature of
power to take hold at scale more than
tech companies at least what we've seen
so far
yeah I agree I agree but I mean we
haven't had a voice like we've had until
recently I mean anyone that has a
Twitter account now can speak and become
a news article
um you know my parents didn't have that
didn't have that voice if they wanted to
speak out against the government or do
something they had to go to a protester
organize a protester you know do
something along those lines so you know
we have more of a place to put our voice
out now yeah it's incredible but that's
why it hurts and that's why you notice
it when certain voices get removed the
president of the United States of
America was removed from one such or all
such platforms
and that hurts yeah that's crazy to me
that's insane that's insane that we we
took that away but
let's return to uh to still growing so
how did your path with this very
difficult very fascinating case uh cross
we were looking to open a case against
Tor because it was a problem all the
cases were closing uh because Tori so we
went on tour and we we came up with 26
Web different onion dog onions that we
targeted we were looking for nexuses to
hacking because I was on a squad called
cy2 and we were like the premier
um Squad in New York that was working uh
uh criminal cyber intrusions
and so you know any website that was
offering hackers for hire or
um hacking tools for free you know or
paid Services uh you know like now we're
seeing ransomware for the paid service
and phishing as a paid service
um anything that offered that so we
opened this case on on I think we called
it we so you have to name cases one of
the fun things in the FBI is if you
start a case you get to name it you
would not believe how much time is spent
in coming up with the name yeah um you
know Casey goes by I think we called
this onion peeler because of the yeah so
a little bit of humor a little bit of
wit and some profundity to the language
yeah yeah yes you're gonna have to work
with this for quite a lot so yeah this
one had the potential of being a big one
you know because I think I think Silk
Road was like the sixth on the list uh
for that case but we all knew that was
sort of the golden ring if you could
make the splash that that onion site was
going down then it would probably get
some publicity and that's part of you
know law enforcement is getting some
publicity out of of it that you know
that makes others think not to do it I
always just say that tour is the name of
the project the browser what is the
onion technology behind Tor let's say
you want to go to a DOT onion site
you'll you'll put in the dot done you
want to go to and your computer will
build uh Communications with a tour
relay which are all publicly available
out there but you'll encrypt it you'll
put a package around your data and so
it's encrypted and so can't read it it
goes to that that first relay that first
relay knows about you and then knows
about the next relay down the chain and
so it takes your data and then encrypts
that on the outside and sends it to
relay number two now relay number two
only knows about relay number one it
doesn't know who you are asking for this
and it goes through there adding those
layers on top layers of encryption until
it gets where it is that and then even
the onion service doesn't know except
for the the relay it came from who it's
talking to and so it peels back that
gives you the information puts another
layer back on and so it's it's layers
like you're peeling an onion back of the
different relays and that encryption
protects uh who the sender is and what
information they're saying the more
layers there are the more exponentially
difficult it is to decrypt it
I mean you get to a place where you
don't have to have so many layers
because it doesn't matter anymore it's
mathematically impossible to decrypt it
but yeah um you know the more relays you
have the slower it is I mean that's one
of the big drawbacks on tour is is how
slow it operates
so how do you peel the onion
so what what are the different
methodologies for trying to get
some information from a cyber security
perspective on these operations like the
Silk Road it's very difficult people
have come up with different techniques
they're um there's been techniques to
put out in the in the news media about
how they do it um running like massive
amounts of relays and you're controlling
those relays I think I believe someone
tried that once so there's a technical
solution and and what about social
engineering what about trying to
infiltrate
the actual humans they're using
Nah The Silk Road and trying to get in
that way
yeah I mean I I definitely could see the
way of doing that and then in this case
uh in our takedown we use that
um there was one of my partners uh Jared
Dairy again he was an HSI investigator
and he had worked his way up to be a
system admin on the site
um so that did glean quite a bit of
information because he was he was inside
and talking to uh you know at that time
we only know it is DPR or dread pirate
Roberts uh we didn't know who who that
was yet but but we had that open
communication
um you know and one of the things you
know the technical aspects on that is
there was a jabber server that was uh
that's a communication type of
communication server
um that was being used and we knew that
Ross had his jabber set to Pacific time
so we had a pretty good idea what what
part of the we what part of the country
was in
I mean isn't that from From dpr's
perspective from Russ's perspective
isn't that clumsy he wasn't a uh he
wasn't a big computer guy do you notice
that aspect of like the technical Savvy
of some of these guys doesn't seem to be
quite
why weren't they good at this well the
real techy Savvy ones we don't arrest we
don't get to them we don't find them
shout out to the techie uh criminals
they're probably watching this I mean
yeah I mean you were getting a
low-hanging fruit I mean we're getting
the ones that can be caught I mean they
you know I'm sure we'll talk about it
but the anonymous case there was a guy
named AV unit he still I lose sleep over
him because I we didn't catch him we
caught everybody else we didn't catch
him
he's good though
he pops up too once in a while on the
internet and it pisses me off yeah
what's his name again AV unit that's all
I know is his AV unit AV unit yeah I got
a funny story about about him and what
who people think he is can I actually
can we go on that brief tangent sure I
love tangents
[Laughter]
well let me ask you uh
since he's probably he or she who knows
that he we have no idea okay I mean
that's another funny story about hackers
the he she issue what's the funny story
there well one of the guys in lulsec was
a was a she was a 17 year old girl yeah
uh and uh my source in the case the the
guy Sabu that I arrested and part of it
and you know we sat side by side for
nine months and then took down you know
the case and all that he was convinced
she was a girl and we said you know and
he was in love with her almost as at one
point it turns out to be a 35 year old
guy living in England oh so he was
convinced there's a uh yes he was
absolutely based on what exactly by
linguistic like human-based linguistic
analysis or what she she he uh whatever
you know Kayla which ended up being like
a modification of his sister's name the
real guy's sister's name was so good at
building the backstory all these guys
and it's funny like these guys are part
of a hacking crew they social engineer
the shit out of each other yeah just to
build if one of them ever gets caught
they'll convince the everybody else that
you know they're a Brazilian uh you know
ISP owner or something like that and
that's how I'm so powerful well yeah
that social engineering aspect is part
of living a life of cyber crime or cyber
security and the offensive or defensive
so AV unit
casca also just uh attention of
attention first that's my favorite
tangent okay
um is it possible for me to have a
podcast conversation
was somebody who hasn't been caught yet
and because they have the conversation
they still won't be caught
and is that a good idea meaning is there
a safe way for a criminal to talk to me
at a podcast
I would think so
I would think they that someone could I
mean someone who has been living a
double life for for long enough where
you think they're not a criminal
um no no no they would have to admit
that they would say I am AV unit oh you
would want to have a conversation with
AV unit yes
um is there a way I'm just speaking from
an FBI perspective technically speaking
because I I so let me explain my
motivation or I think
I would like to be able to talk to
people from all walks of life and
understanding criminals
understanding their mind I think is very
important
and I think there's fundamentally
something different between a criminal
who's still active versus one that's
been caught the mind just from observing
it changes
completely once you're caught you you
have a big shift in your understanding
of the world
um I mean that I do have a question
about the ethics of having such
conversations but first technically uh
is is that is it possible
if I was technically advising you I
would say first off don't advertise it
don't the fewer people that you're gonna
tell that you're having this
conversation with the better
um and yeah you could if you do it in
person are you doing it in person would
be amazing yeah but they their face
would not be shown face would not be
yeah I mean you couldn't publish a show
for a while they'd have to put a lot of
trust in you that you are not going to
you're going to have to alter those
tapes uh I say tapes because it's old
school you know exactly I'm sure a lot
of people just said that like oh shit
this old guy just said tape I heard of
VHS was in the 1800s I think
um but yeah yeah you could do it they'd
have to have complete faith and trust in
you that you destroy the originals after
you've altered it what about if they
don't have faith is there a way for them
to attain security
um so uh like for me to go through some
kind of process where I meet them
somewhere where I mean you're not going
to do it without a bag over your head I
don't know if that's the life you want
to live I'm fine with a bag over my head
that's gonna take get taken out of
context but I just I think it's a worthy
effort it's a word it's worthy to go
through the hardship of that to
understand the mind of somebody I think
fundamentally conversations are a
different thing than the operation of
law enforcement understanding the mind
of a criminal I think is really
important I don't know if you're going
to have the honest conversation that
you're looking for I mean it may sound
honest but it may not be the truth I
found most times when I was talking to
criminals it's lies mixed with half
truce uh and you you kind of it's if
they're good they can keep that story
going for long enough uh if they're not
you know you kind of see the relief in
them when you finally break that wall
down
that's the job of an interviewer if the
interviewer is good then perhaps not
directly but through the gaps seeps out
the truth of the human being so not
necessarily the details of how they do
the operations and so on but just who
they are as a human being what their
motivations are what their ethics are
how they see the world what is good what
is evil do they see themselves as good
what do they see their motivation as do
they have a resentment what do they
think about love for the people within
their small community do they have for
example for the government or for other
nations or for other people to the
childhood issues that led to to a
different view of the world than others
perhaps have do they have certain
fetishes like sexual and otherwise that
led to their construction of the world
they might be able to reveal some deep
flaws to the cyber security
infrastructure of our world not in
detail but like philosophically speaking
they might have
I I know you might say it's just a
narrative but they might have a kind of
ethical concern for the well-being of
the world that they're essentially
attacking the weakness of the cyber
security infrastructure because they
believe ultimately that would lead to a
safer world
so the attacks will reveal the
weaknesses
and if they're stealing a bunch of money
that's okay because that's going to
enforce you to invest a lot more money
in defending
um yeah defending things that actually
matter you know nuclear warheads and all
those kinds of things I mean I could I
could see if you know it's fascinating
to explore the mind of a human being
like that because
um I think it will help people
understand now of course
uh
it's still a person that's creating a
lot of suffering in the world which is a
problem so do you think ethically it's a
good thing to do
I don't I mean I I feel like I have a
fairly High
ethical bar that I have to put myself on
and I don't think I have a problem with
it I would love to listen to it okay
great I mean not that I'm your ethical
culture here yeah but uh well that's
interesting I mean so because I thought
you would have become jaded and
exhausted by the criminal
um mind
it's funny
um you know I I'm I'm you know fast
forwarding our story I'm very good
friends with with Hector monster or the
Cebu the guy arrested
um and he tells stories of what he did
in his past and I'm like um that actor
you know
you know but then I listened to your
episode with Brett Johnson and I was
like ah this guy's stealing money from
from the US government and Welfare fraud
and all that sort of things it just
pissed me off and I don't know why I
have that
differentiation in my head I don't know
why I think one's just oh Hector will be
Hector and then this guy just pissed me
off well you didn't feel that way about
Hector until you probably met him well I
didn't know Hector I knew Sabu so I
hunted down Sabu and I learned about
Hector over those nine months we'll
we'll talk about this let's finish with
yeah let's return tangent to back to
attention oh
one tangent up who's AV unit I don't
know interesting so he's at the core of
anonymous he's one of the critical
people Anonymous what is known about him
there's what's known in public and what
was known because uh side with Hector
and um he was sort of like the the set
things up guy
um so if
littlesec had like their hackers which
was Sabu and Kayla and they had their uh
their their media guy this guy topiary
uh he lived up in the northern end of
England and uh they had a few other guys
but but AV unit was the guy that set up
infrastructure so if you need a VPN in
Brazil or something like that to pop
through
um
one of the first things Hector told me
after we arrested him is that heavy unit
was the secret service agent
and I was like oh shit
um just because he kind of lived that
lifestyle he'd be around for a bunch of
days and then all of a sudden gone for
three weeks
um and I tried to get more out of Hector
but that early on in that relationship
um you know I'm sure he was a little bit
guarded uh and maybe trying to social
engineer Me Maybe he wanted that uh that
oh shit there's law enforcement involved
in this
um and and not to say I mean I I was in
over my head with that case just the
amount of work that was going on
um so to track them all down
um plus the 350 hacks that we came in
about just military institutions
um you know it was swimming in the deep
end
um so it was just at the end of the case
I looked back and I was like oh fuck
heavy unit I could have had them all uh
you know maybe that's the perfectionist
in me oh man well reach out somehow I
can't I won't say how right we'll have
to figure would you have them on yeah oh
my God if you just let me know just just
talk this shit about you the whole time
that's perfect he probably doesn't even
care about me but well now he will oh
yeah because there's a certain pleasure
of a guy who's extremely good at his job
not catching another guy who's extremely
good at his job obviously better he got
away better there you go he's still
eating at you I love it you or she if I
could meet that guy one day that he or
she that'd be great I mean I have no
power
so yes Silk Road can you speak to the
scale of this thing what what just for
people who are not familiar uh how big
was it
um and any other interesting things you
understand about its operation when it
was active so it was uh when we finally
got looking through the books and you
know the the numbers came out it's about
1.2 billion dollars in sales it's kind
of hard with the fluctuation value of
Bitcoin at the time to come up with a
real number so you kind of pick a daily
average you know and go across so most
of the operation was done in Bitcoin
it's all done Bitcoin you you couldn't
you had escrow accounts on you know you
came in and you put money in an escrow
account and you know it the transaction
wasn't done until the client got the the
drugs or whatever they had bought
um and then the drug dealers had sent it
in there was some talk at the time that
that the cartel was starting to sell on
there
um so that started getting a little
hairy there at the end what was the
understanding of the relationship
between organized crime like the cartels
and this kind of more ad hoc
new age
uh Market that is the Silk Road I mean
it was all just chatter it was just you
know because like I said Jared was the
inside so we saw some of it from for the
admin sides and Ross had a lot of
private conversations with the different
people that he had advised him
um but no one knew each other I mean the
only thing the only thing that they knew
with the admins had to send an ID to
Ross had to send a picture of their
driver's license or passport which I
always found very strange because if you
are an admin on a site that sells fake
IDs why would you send your real ID and
then why would the guy running the site
who profits from selling fake IDs
believed that it was
but fast forward tangent they were all
real IDs all the IDS that we found on
Ross's computer as the admins were the
real people's IDs what do you make of
that because I have other clumsiness
yeah low hanging fruit I guess I guess
that's what it is I mean I mean I would
have bought I mean even Ross bought
fake IDs off the site he had federal
agents knock on his door
um you know and then he got a little
cocky about it the landscape the
Dynamics of trust is fascinating here so
you trusts certain ideas or like who do
you trust in that kind of Market what
was your understanding of the network of
trust
I have nothing anyone trust anybody you
know I mean I think Ross had his
advisors of trust but outside of that I
mean he required people to send their ID
for their trust he you know people stole
from him uh there was there's open cases
of that
um
it's a criminal world you can't trust
anybody
what was his life like you think
lonely
can you imagine being trapped in
something like that where you the your
whole world focus on that and you can't
tell people what you do all day
could he have walked away
like someone else take over the site
just shut down either one just you
putting yourself in his shoes the
loneliness the the anxiety the just the
growing immensity of it so walk away
with some kind of financial stability I
couldn't have made it past two days I
don't know I don't like loneliness yeah
I mean my my wife's away I probably call
her 10 12 times a day we just talk about
things you know I just you know
something crossed my mind I want to talk
about it and I'm sure she and you like
to talk to her like honestly about
everything so if you were running Silk
Road you would you wouldn't be able to
like uh hopefully I'd have a little
protection I'd only mention to her when
we were in bed
um to have that marital uh connection
but but who knows I mean she's gonna
question why the Ferrari is outside and
things like that yeah
well I'm sure you can come up with
something why didn't he walk away it's
another question why don't criminals
walk away in these situations well I
mean I don't know every Criminal Mind
and some do I mean AV unit walked away I
mean not to go back to that son of a
bitch but there's a theme to this but
you know uh Ross started counting his
dollars I mean he really kept track of
how much money he was making and it
started you know getting exponentially
growth I mean he I mean if he would have
stayed at it he would have probably been
one of the richest people in the world
and do you think he liked the actual
money or the fact of the number growing
I mean have you ever held a Bitcoin yeah
oh you have well he never really held
the Bitcoin can't hold it it's not real
it's not like I can give you a briefcase
of Bitcoin right like you know or
something like that like he liked the
idea of it growing he liked the idea I
mean I think it started off as sharing
this idea but then he really did turn to
like I am the captain of the ship and
that's what goes and he was making a lot
of money and again
my interactions with Ross was about
maybe five or six hours over uh over a
two day period
um I knew DPR because I read his words
and all that I didn't really know Ross
um there was a journal found on his
computer and so it sort of kind of gave
me a little insight
um so I don't like to do a playbook for
criminals but I'll tell you right now
don't write things down
um there was a big fad about people like
remember kids going around shooting
people with paintballs and filming it I
don't know why you would do that why
would you videotape yourself committing
crime and then publish it like if
there's one thing I've taught my
children don't record yourself doing bad
things it never goes but goes well so
you actually give advice in the other
end of logs being very useful for the
defense perspective uh for
you know if information is useful for
being able to figure out what the
attacks were all about Vlogs are the
only reason I found Hector monstergar I
mean the the one time his uh VPN dropped
during a fox act and he says he did it
wasn't even hacking he just was sent a
link and he clicked on it and then 10
million lines of uh of logs there was
one IP address that stuck out
this is fascinating we'll explore
several angles of that so
um
uh what was the process of bringing down
Ross and uh the Silk Road all right so
that's a long story you want the whole
thing you want to break it up let's
start at the beginning
once we had the information of the chat
logs and all that from the server
we found the server what's a chat log so
the dot onion was uh running the the
website the Silk Road was running on a
server in Iceland
how did you figure that out that was one
of the uh claims that the NSA yeah
that's that's the one that we said that
yeah I wouldn't tell you if it was the
it's on the internet I mean the internet
has their conspiracy theories and all
that so but you figure out that's the
part of the thing you do you it's puzzle
pieces you have to put them together
yeah and look for different pieces of
information and figure out okay so you
figure out the servers in Iceland we get
a copy of it and so we start getting
clues off of that with the physical copy
of the server yeah we flew you fly over
there so you you go if you've been
Iceland if you've never been you should
definitely go to Iceland uh is it
beautiful or I love it I love it it was
what so I'll tell you this so sorry
tangents I love this yeah so I went to
Iceland for the anonymous case then I
went to Iceland for the Silk Road case
and I was like oh shit all cyber crime
goes through Iceland
um it was just my sort of thing and I
was over there for like the third time
and I said if I ever can bring my family
here like so there's a place called
thingovar and I'm sure I'm fucking up
the name the icelandics are pissed right
now but it's where the the North
American continent play in the European
Continental plane are pulling apart and
it's being filled in with the volcanic
uh material in the in the middle and
it's so cool like it's like one day I'll
be able to afford to bring my family
here
um and once I left just like The
Humbling and the beauty of nature just
everything man it was a different world
it was it was it was insane how great
Iceland is and so we went back and we we
rented a van and we took friends and
um we drove around the entire country
uh absolutely like a beautiful place
like reykjavik's nice but get out of
Reykjavik as quick as you can and see
the countryside how is this place even
real well it's so new I mean that's so
you know our Rivers have been going
through here for millions of years and
flattened everything out and all that
these are these are new this is new land
being carved by these Rivers you can
walk behind a waterfall in one place
um it's it's the most beautiful place
I've ever been you understand why this
is a place where a lot of hacking is
being done because the energy is free
and it's it's cool so you have a lot of
servers going on there server Farms you
know they're they're the energy has come
up out everybody out of the ground
geothermal
um and so and then it keeps all the
servers nice and cool so why not keep
your computers there at a cheap rate uh
I'll definitely visit for several
reasons including to uh talk to AV unit
yeah
well the servers are there but they
don't probably live there I mean that's
the interesting I mean the Pacific uh
the PST the time zones there's so many
fascinating things to explore here but
so you I mean the European internet
cable goes through there so you know
across the Greenland then down through
Canada and all that so they have
backbone access with cheap energy and uh
free cold weather you know and beautiful
oh and beautiful yes
so chat logs on that server what what
are the
what what was in the chat logs
everything he kept them all that's
another issue if you're writing a
criminal Enterprise please don't keep up
again I'm not making a guidebook of how
to commit the perfect crime uh but you
know we every chat he ever had and
everyone's chat it was it was like going
into Facebook of criminal activity yeah
I'm just looking at texts with Elon Musk
being part of the conversations uh I
don't know if you're familiar but
they've been made public
for the court cases going through what's
going through is going through what's
going through with Twitter I don't know
where it is
um but it made me realize that oh okay
I'm generally that's my philosophy on
life is like anything I text or email or
say publicly or privately I should be
proud of
so I tried to kind of do that because
you basically you say don't keep chat
logs but it's very difficult
to erase chat logs from this world like
I guess if you're a criminal that should
be um
like you have to be exceptionally
competent at that kind of thing to erase
your Footprints is very very difficult
can't make one mistake all it takes is
one mistake of keeping it but but yeah I
mean not only do you have to
be whatever you put in chat log or
whatever put an email it has to hold up
and you have to be stand behind it
publicly when it comes out but it has if
it comes out 10 years from now you have
to stand behind it I mean we're seeing
that now in today's society yeah but
that's a responsibility you have to take
really really seriously if like if I was
a parent an advising teens like you kind
of have to teach them that I I know
there's a sense like no we'll become
more accustomed to that kind of thing
but in reality nope I think in the
future we'll still be held responsible
for the weird shit we do yeah a friend
of mine his daughter got kicked out of
college because of something she posted
in high school and the shittiest thing
for him but great for my kids great
lesson look over there and you don't
want that to happen to you yeah okay so
in the chat logs was uh useful
information like uh uh breadcrumbs of
what of information that you can then
pull out yeah great evidence and stuff
you know I mean obviously yeah a lot of
evidence
here's a sale of this much air win
because you know Ross ended up getting
charged with Czar status on certain
things and that's there's it's a certain
weight in each type of drug that you had
like I think it was it's four or five
employees of your Empire and that you
made more than 10 million dollars and so
it's it's it's you know it's just like
the Narco track feeders get charged with
their you know uh anybody out of
Colombia you know and so and that was
primarily what he was charged with doing
when he was arrested is the drug yeah
and he got charged with some of the
hacking tools too okay because he's in
prison what for two life sentences plus
40 years and no possibility of parole in
the federal system there's no
possibility of parole when you have life
the only way you get out is if the
president pardons you
there's always a chance there is I think
it was close uh I heard I heard rumors
there was close uh well right so it
depends given it's fascinating but given
the political the ideological ideas that
he represented and espoused it's it's
not out of the realm of possibility
yeah I mean I've been asked before who
you know who does he get out of prison
first or does Snowden come back into
America and I I don't know I have no
idea it just became a Russian citizen I
saw that and I said yeah I've heard a
lot of good weird theories about that
one well actually uh on another tangent
let me ask you do you think Snowden
is um
a good or a bad person a bad person
can you make the case that he's a bad
person there's ways of being a
whistleblower and and there's there's
rules set up on how to do that
um
he didn't follow those rules I mean they
you know I'm red white and blue so I'm
pretty you know so you think his actions
were anti-American I think the results
of his actions were anti-American I
don't know if his actions or anything do
you think he could have anticipated the
the negative consequences of his action
should we judge him by the consequences
or the ideals
of the intent of his actions I think we
all get to judge him by base our own
beliefs but I believe what he did was
wrong can you still man the case that
he's actually
a good person and good for this country
for the United States of America
as a flag bearer for the the
whistleblowers the the check on the
power of government
yeah I mean I'm not a big government
type guy uh you know so uh you know even
that sounds weird coming from a
government guy for so many years
um but there's rules in place for a
reason I mean he put you know some of
our best capabilities
um he made them publicly available
um they really kind of set us back in
the and this isn't my world at all but
the offensive side of cyber security
right so he revealed stuff that he
didn't need to reveal in order to make
the point correct the so so you if you
can imagine a world where he leaked
stuff that revealed the mass
surveillance efforts
and not reveal other stuff
is the mass surveillance I mean that's
the thing that uh of course there's in
the interpretation of that there's
fear-mongering but at the core that was
a real shock to people that
um it's possible for government to
collect data at scale
it's surprising to me that people are
that shocked by it
well there's conspiracies and then
there's like actual uh evidence that
that is happening I mean it's it's a
real there's a lot of reality that
people ignore but when it hits you in
the face you realize holy shit we're
living in a new world this is this is
the new reality and we have to deal with
that reality just like you work in cyber
security I think it really hasn't hit
most people
how fucked we all are in terms of cyber
security okay let me rephrase that how
many dangers there are in the digital
world how much under attack we all are
and how more uh intensity attacks are
getting and how difficult the defense is
and how important it is and how much we
should value it and all the different
things we should do at the small and
large scale to defend like most people
really haven't woken up they think about
privacy from tech companies they don't
think about attacks cyber attacks people
don't think they're a Target and it's it
that message definitely have to get out
there I mean you know if you have a
voice you're a Target if of the place
you work you might be a Target you know
your husband might work at some place
you know and because now people are
working from home so they're going to
Target you know Target you to get access
to to his Network in order to get in
when that same way the idea that the US
government or any government could be
doing Mass surveillance on its citizens
is um is one that was a wake-up call
because you could imagine the ways in
which that could um
be a uh like you could abuse the power
of that to control a citizenry for
political reasons and purposes
absolutely you know you could abuse it I
I think during in the part of the
Snowden League saw the two NSA guys were
uh moderating like their girlfriends and
there's rules in place for that those
people should be punished and for
abusing that but how else are we going
to hear about you know terrorists that
are in the country talking about
birthday cakes
uh and you know that was a case where
that that was the trip word that that
you know we're gonna go and bomb New
York City's Subway yeah it's complicated
but it just feels like there should be
some balance of transparency there
should be a check in that power
because like you you know in the name of
the war on terror
you can sort of uh sacrifice it there is
a trade-off between security and freedom
uh but it just feels like there's a
giant slippery slope on the sacrificing
of freedom in the name of security it's
I hear you and and you know we we live
in a world where well I live in a world
where I had to tell you exactly how when
I arrested someone I had to write a
50-page document of how I arrested you
uh and all the probable cause I have
against you and all that well you know
bad guys are reading that they're
reading how I caught you and they're
changing the way they're doing things
they're changing their MO
um you know they're doing it to be more
secure if you know we tell people how
we're monitoring you know how what we're
surveilling we're going to lose that I
mean the the terrorists are just going
to go a different way and I'm not trying
to again I'm not big government I'm not
trying to say that you know it's cool
that that we're monitoring the US
government's monitoring everything um
you know big text Monitor and everything
they're just monetizing it versus uh
possibly using it against you but there
is a balance and those 50 pages just
they have a lot of value
if they make your job harder
but they prevent you from abusing the
power of the job yeah there's a balance
yeah that's a tricky balance
so the chat logs in Iceland
give you evidence of the heroin and all
the the large-scale Czar level drug
trading what else did it give you in
terms of the how to catch I gave us
infrastructure so the onion name was
actually running on a server in France
so if you like and it only commuted
through a back Channel a VPN to connect
to the Iceland server
um there was a
Bitcoin like kind of Vault server there
was also in Iceland and I think that was
so that the admins couldn't get into the
Bitcoins the other admins that were
hired to work on the site so you could
get into the site but you couldn't touch
the money only Ross had access to that
and then you know another another big
mistake on Ross's part is he had the
backups for everything at a data center
in Philadelphia
they'll put your infrastructure in the
United States
I mean again
let's not make a Playbook but you know
well I think these are low-hanging food
that people of confidence would know
already I agree but it's interesting
that
he wasn't competent enough to make he so
he was incompetent in certain ways yeah
I know I don't think he was a mastermind
of setting up an infrastructure that
would protect his uh his his online
business because you know keeping chat
logs keeping a diary putting
infrastructure where it shouldn't be
um
bad decisions
how did uh you figure out that he is in
San Francisco
so we had that part with Jared that he
was on the west coast and then who again
is Jared Jerry Reagan was a he was a
partner
um in uh he he was a DHS agent
um worked for HSI Homeland Security
investigations in Chicago uh he started
his Silk Road investigation because he
was working at O'Hare and a weird
package came in I'm coming to find out
he traced it back to Silk Road so he he
started working a Silk Road
investigation long before I started my
case and he made his way up undercover
all the way to be an admin on Silk Road
um so he was talking to Ross on a jabber
server the private jabber server private
chat communication server and uh we
noticed that Ross's
um Time Zone on that Jabra server was
set to the West Coast so we we had
Pacific Time on there so we had a a
region 124th of the world was covered of
where we thought we might be and from
there how do you get to San Francisco
there was another guy an IRS agent that
was part of the team and he used a
powerful tool
um to find uh his clue he used the world
of Google he simply just went back and
Googled around for uh Silk Road at the
time it was coming up and found some
posts on like some help forums that this
guy was starting an onion website and
wanted some cryptocurrency help and if
you could help him please reach out to
ross.albrick gmail.com in my world
that's a clue
so okay so that that's as simple as that
yeah and the the name he used on that
post was Frosty yeah so he had to
connect Frosty and other uses in Frosty
and here's a Gmail and the Gmail has the
name the Gmail posted that that I need
help under the name Frosty on this forum
so what's the connection of Frosty
elsewhere
the person logging into the Philadelphia
backup server the name of the computer
was Frosty yeah
another clue in my world and that's it
the name is there the connection to the
Philadelphia server and then to Iceland
is there and so the rest is small
details in terms of uh or is there
interesting details no I mean there's
some electronic surveillance the find
Ross Albrecht living in a house and is
there you know is a computer on his
house attaching to uh uh you know does
it have tour traffic at the same time
the dpr's on
um another big clue
matching up time frames
again just putting your email out there
putting your name out there like that
like what I see from that just at the
scale of that market what would I what
it just makes me wonder how many
criminals are out there that are not
making these little hanging fruit
mistakes and are still successfully
operating it to me it seems like you
could be a criminal
much it's much easier to be a criminal
on the internet
what else to you is interesting to
understand about that case of Ross and
a Silk Road and just the history of it
from your own
relationship with it from a cyber
security perspective from an ethical
perspective all that kind of stuff like
when you look back what's interesting to
you about that case
I think my views on the case have
changed over time I mean it was my job
back then
um so I just looked at it as of you know
I'm going after this I sort of made a
name for myself in the Bureau for the
anonymous case and then this one was
just I mean this was a bigger deal I
mean they flew me down to DC to meet
with the director about this case
um the president United States was going
to announce this case the arrest
unfortunately the government shut down
two days before so it was just us and
that's really the only reason I had any
publicity out of it is because the
government shut down and the only thing
that went public was that affidavit with
my signature at the end otherwise it
would have just been the the attorney
general and the president announcing the
rest of this this big thing and you
wouldn't have seen me did you understand
that this is a big case yeah I knew them
all yeah they knew at the time was it
because of the scale of it or what it
stood for
I just knew that the public was going to
react in a big way like the media was
now did I think that it was going to be
on the front page of every newspaper and
the day after the arrest no but I could
sense it like I went like three or four
days without sleep
um when I was out in San Francisco to
arrest Ross I had sent three guys to
Iceland to um so it was a three-prong
approach for the takedown it was get
Ross get the Bitcoins and seize the site
like we didn't want someone else taking
control of the site and we wanted that
big splash of that Banner like look look
the government found this site like you
might not want to think about doing this
again
so and you were able to pull off all
three maybe that's my superpower I'm
really good about putting smarter people
on than I am uh to gathering on the
right things
um you know the only way to do it in the
business I formed that's what I did I
hired only smarter people than me and I
you know I'm not that smart but you know
uh smart enough to know who the smart
people are the team was able to do all
three yeah we were able to get all three
done
um yeah and the one guy one of the guys
the main guys I sent to Iceland man he
was so smart like I sent another guy
from the FBI to
um
to France to get that part and he
couldn't do it so the guy in Iceland did
it from from Iceland he had to pull some
stuff out of memory on a computer
um you know he's it's live process stuff
I'm sure you've done that before but
uh I'm sure you did look look what
you're doing you're this is like a
multi-layer interrogation going on uh
was there a concern that somebody else
would step in and control the site
absolutely we we didn't have Insight on
who exactly I control so it turns out
that Russ had like dictatorial control
so he it wasn't easy to delegate to
somebody else he hadn't I think he had
some sort of ideas I mean his diary
talked about walking away and giving it
to somebody else but he didn't uh he
couldn't give up that control on anybody
apparently
which makes you think that power
corrupts and his ideals were not as
strong as he espoused about because if
if it was about the freedom of being
able to buy drugs
if you want to
then he surely should have found ways to
delegate that power we changed over time
you could see it in his writings
um that he changed like so
people will argue back and forth that
there was never murders on Silk Road
when we were doing the investigation to
us there were six murders
um so there there was the way we see him
saw him at the time was Ross ordered
people to be murdered
um you know somebody people stole from
him and all that it was sort of an
evolution from oh man I can't deal with
this I can't do it it's too much to the
last one was like the guy said uh well
he's got three roommates uh it's like oh
we'll kill them too was that ever proven
in court no the murders never went
forward because there was some uh some
stuff problems in that case so there was
a separate case in Baltimore uh that
they had been working on for a lot
longer and so you know during the
investigation that caused a bunch of
problems because now we have multiple
federal agencies a case against the same
thing how do you decide not to push
forward the the the the murder
investigations so there was a
deconfliction meeting that happened in
DC see I didn't happen to go to that
meeting but Jared went this is before I
ever knew Jared and
um we have like um televisions where we
can just sit in a room and sit in on the
meeting
um but it's all you know security
network and all that so we can talk
openly about uh secure things
um and we sat in on the meeting and
people just kept saying the term Sweat
Equity I've got Sweat Equity meaning
that they had worked on the case for so
long that they deserve to take them down
um and the by this time you know no one
knew about us but we told them at the
meeting that we had found the server and
we have a copy of it and we have the
infrastructure
um and and these guys had just had
Communications Undercovers they didn't
really know what was going on and this
wasn't my first deconfliction meeting we
had a huge deconliction meeting during
um during the anonymous case what's the
deconfliction mean agents within your
agency or other other federal agencies
these have an open investigation that if
you expose your case or took down your
case would hurt their case or the other
call so you kind of have a it's like the
rival gangs meet at the table in a
smoke-filled room and uh less bullets at
the end but yes
oh boy with the Sweat Equity yeah so I
mean there's I hope careers at stake
right yeah you hate that idea yeah I
mean why would you why is that a stake
just because you've worked on it long
enough longer than I have that means you
get you you you did better yeah that's
that's insane to me the the that's
rewarding bad behavior and so that one
of the part of The Sweat Equity
discussion was about murder and this was
here's a chance to actually bust them
and be given the data you have from
Iceland and all that kind of stuff so
why well they wanted us to turn the data
over to them to them yeah thanks thanks
for getting us this far here it is I
mean it came to the point where they
sent us like they they had a picture of
what they thought Ross was and it was an
internet meme it really was a meme it
was a photo that we could look up like
it was insane all right so there's
different degrees the competence all
across the world between different
people yes okay uh does part of you
regret because you push forward the the
heroin and the drug trade we never got
to the murder discussion I mean the only
regretting is that the the internet
doesn't seem to understand like they
they just kind of blow that part off
that that he literally paid people to
have people murdered it didn't result in
a murder and I thank God no one resulted
in a murder but that's where his mind
was his mind and where he wrote in his
diary was that I had people killed and
here's the money he paid it he he paid a
large amount of Bitcoins uh to for that
murder didn't just even think about it
he actually took action but the murders
never happened he took action by paying
the money correct and the people came
back with results he thought they were
murdered
that said can you understand and steal
me on the case for the drug trade on
Silk Road
like making can you make the case that
it's a net positive for society
so there was a time period of when we
found out the infrastructure
and when we built the case against Ross
I don't remember exactly
six weeks a month two months I don't
know somewhere in there
um but then at Ross ascendancing there
was a father that stood up and talked
about his son dying and I went back and
kind of did the math and it was between
those time periods of when we knew we
could shut it down we could have pulled
the plug on the server and gone and when
Ross was arrested uh his son died from
buying drugs until ground and
I still think about that father a lot
but if we look at scale at the War on
Drugs
let's just even outside of Silk Road do
you think the War on Drugs
by the United States
has caused
has alleviated more suffering or caused
more suffering in the world
that might be above my pay scale I mean
I understand the other side of the
argument I mean people said that I don't
have to go down to the corner to buy
drugs I'm not going to get shot on the
corner buying drugs or something I can
just have them sent to my house people
are going to do drugs anyways I
understand that argument
um from my personal standpoint if I made
it more difficult for my children to get
drugs that I'm satisfied so your
personal philosophy is that if we
legalize all drugs including heroin and
cocaine that that would not make for a
better world
I don't no personally I don't believe
legalizing all drugs would make make for
a better world can you imagine
that it would
do you understand that argument sure I
mean as I've gotten older I've started
to I like to see both sides of an
argument and when I can't see the other
side I that's when I really like to dive
into it and I can see the other side I
can see the why people would say that
um but I don't want to be my group race
children in a world where where drugs
are just free for for use well and then
the other side of it is with Silk Road
did uh
you know taking down Silk Road did that
increase or decrease the number of uh
drug trading criminals in the world it's
unclear online I think it increased I
think uh you know that is one of the
things I think about a lot with Silk
Road was that no one really knew I mean
There Was You Know thousands of users
but then after that it was on the front
page of the paper and there was millions
of people that knew about Tor and onion
sites it was an advertisement
um you know I would have thought I
thought crypto was going to crash right
after that like I don't know like what
people are now see that bad people are
doing bad things with crypto that'll
crash well I'm obviously wrong on that
one uh and I thought you know Ross was
sentenced to two life sentences plus 40
years no one's gonna start up these dark
markets exploded after that yeah
um you know some of them started as you
know opportunistic I'm gonna you know
take those escrow accounts and I'm gonna
steal all the all the money they came in
you know they were for that but you know
but there were a lot of dark markets
that popped up after that now we put
playbook out there
yeah
yeah but and also there's a case for uh
do you ever think about not taking down
if you have not taken down Silk Road you
could use it because it's a market
it itself is not necessarily the primary
criminal organization it's a market for
criminals so it could be used to track
down criminals in the physical world
so if you don't take it down given that
it was you know the central how
centralized it was it could be used as a
place to find criminals right as opposed
to dealers the drug dealers yeah so if
you have the card get the cartels start
get to involved you go after the dealers
it would have been very difficult
because it tore and because of all the
Productions anonymity de-cloaking all
that would have been
drastically more difficult and a lot of
people in upper management the FBI
didn't have the appetite of running
something like that that would have been
the FBI running a drug Market how many
how many kids how many fathers would
have to come in and said my kid bought
well the FBI was running a site a drug
site my kid died so I didn't know
anybody in the FBI in management they
would have the appetite to let us run
what was happening on Silk Road
um you know because remember that time
we still believe in six people are dead
we're still investigating you know where
the hell are these bodies
um you know that's pretty much why we
took down Ross when we did I mean we had
to jump on it fast
what else can you say about this
complicated world that has grown of the
dark web
I don't understand it I I like it would
have been a something for me I I thought
I thought it was going to collapse but
I mean it's just gotten bigger in what's
going out there now I'm really surprised
and that it hasn't grown into other
networks or people haven't developed
other networks but but you mean like
instead of tour yeah tor's still the
main one out there I mean there's some
there's a few others and I'm not gonna
put an advertisement up for them but uh
but you know I thought that market would
have grown yeah my sense was when I
interacted with Tori was that there's
huge usability issues but that's for
like legal activity yeah because like if
you care about privacy it's just not as
good of a browser like uh it's to to to
to look at stuff no it's way too slow
it's way too slow but I mean you can't
even like I know some people use it to
like view movies like Netflix so you can
only view certain movies in certain
countries you can use it for that but
it's it's too slow even for that so
were you ever able to hold in your mind
the landscape of the dark web like what
what's going on out there it's a to me
as a human being it's just difficult
to understand the digital world like
these Anonymous usernames
like doing Anonymous activity it's just
it's hard to um
what am I trying to say it's hard to
visualize it in the way I can visualize
like I've been reading a lot about
Hitler I can visualize meetings between
people military strategy uh deciding on
uh certain evil atrocities all that kind
of stuff I can visualize the people
there's agreements hands handshakes
stuff signed groups built like in the
digital space like with Bots with
anonymity anyone human can be multiple
people uh it's just yeah it's all lies
it's all lies like yeah it feels like I
can't trust anything no you can't you
honestly can't and like you can talk to
two different people and it's the same
person like like there's so many
different you know Hector had so many
different identities online that you
know of things that the you know the
lies to each other I mean he lied to
people inside his group uh just to use
another name to spy on make sure what
they're you know we're talking shit
behind his back or weren't doing
anything
um it's all lies and people that can
keep all those lies straight it's
unbelievable to me Ross Albrecht
represents the very early days of that
that's why the the competence wasn't
there
just imagine how good the people are now
the kids that grow up oh they've learned
from his his mistakes
just the extreme competence you just see
how good people are in video games like
the level of uh play in terms of video
games like I I used to think I sucked
and now I'm not even
like I'm not even in the like
consideration of calling myself shitty
at video games I'm not even I'm like
non-existent I'm like uh the mold yeah I
stopped playing but it's so embarrassing
it's embarrassing it's like wrestling
with your kid and you finally beats you
and he's like well fuck that I'm not
wrestling my kid anymore ever again and
in some sense hacking uh at its best and
it's worse is a kind of game and you can
get exceptionally good at that kind of
game
and you get the accolations of it I mean
there's you know there's power that
comes along if you have success I look
at the kid that was hacking into Uber
and Rockstar Games he put it out there
that he was doing it I mean he used the
name
um whatever hacked into Uber was his
screen name he was very proud of it I
mean one building evidence against
himself uh but you know they he wanted
that slap on the back like look at what
a great hacker you are yeah what do you
think is in the mind of that
guy what do you think is in the mind of
of us do you think they see themselves
as good people
do they do you think they acknowledged
the bad they're doing around to the
world
so so that Uber hacker I think that's
just youth I mean not realizing what
consequences are I mean based on his
actions Ross was a little bit older
um I think I'd Rush truly
is a Libertarian he was truly had his
beliefs that that he could provide
the Gateway for other people to live
that libertarian lifestyle and put in
their body what they want uh I I don't
think that was a front or a lie what's
the difference between uh DPR and Rossi
said like I have never met Ross until I
have only had those two uh to two days
of worth of interaction yeah it's just
interesting given how long you've chased
him and then having met him what was the
difference to you as a human being he
was a human being he was he was you know
he was an actual person he was nervous
when we arrested him
um so one of the things that that I I
learned through my law enforcement
career is if I'm going to be the case
Asian I'm going to be the one in charge
of you know dealing with this person I'm
not putting handcuffs on it someone else
is going to do that like I'm gonna be
there to help him uh you know I'm your
conduit to help and so you know right
after someone's arrested you obviously
you've had him down for weapons to make
sure for every safety but then I just
put my hand on their chest just feel
their heart feel their breathing you're
gonna it's I'm sure it's the scariest
day but then to have that
human contact kind of settles people
down and you can kind of let's start
thinking about this I'm going to tell
you you know I'm going to be open and
honest with you you know there's a lot
of cops out there and federal agents
cops that just go to the hard ass tactic
you don't get very far with that you
don't get very far being a mean asshole
to somebody you know be compassionate be
human uh and it's going to go a lot
further so given everything he's done
you are still able to have a compassion
for him yeah we took him to the jail and
we we so he it was after hours so he
didn't get to see a judge that day so
you stick we stuck him in the San
Francisco jail
um I hadn't slept for about four days
because I was dealing with people in
Iceland bosses in DC bosses in New York
so I and I was in San Francisco so time
frame like like the Iceland people were
calling me when I was supposed to be
sleeping it was insane but I still went
out that night while Ross sat in jail
and bought him breakfast I said what do
you want for breakfast I'll have a nice
breakfast for you because we picked him
up in the morning and took him over to
the FBI to do the the FBI booking the
fingerprints and all that and and I got
him breakfast I mean and you don't get
paid back for that sort of thing I'm not
looking but out of my own did he make
special requests for breakfast yeah he
asked for certain things like team
mentioners that top secret FBI not top
secret I I think you want us some
granola bars like and and you know but I
mean he already had lawyered up so we
you know which is his right you can do
that so I I knew we weren't gonna work
together you know like I did with Hector
um but I mean this is
most of the conversations have to be
them with lawyers from that point on I
can't question him yeah when he asked
for a lawyer
um or if I did it wouldn't be used
against him
um so we just had conversation where I
talked to him yeah you know he could you
know could say things to me but then I
would remind him that he asked for a
lawyer and he'd have to waive that and
all that but we didn't talk about his
case so much we just talked about like
human beings did he um
with his eyes with his words
um reveal any kind of regret or did you
see a human being changing understanding
something about themselves in the
process of being caught
no I don't think that I mean he did
offer me 20 million dollars to let him
go when we were driving to the the jail
oh no and I asked him what I was gonna
we were gonna do with the agent that sat
in the front seat the money really broke
him huh I think so I think he kind of
got caught up in how much money it was
and and how you know when crypto started
it was pennies and by the time he got
arrested it was 120 bucks and you know I
mean 177 000 Bitcoins even today you
know that's a lot of Bitcoins so you
really could have been if you continued
to be one of the richest people in the
world I I possibly could have been if I
took that that 20 million then I could
have been living we could have this
conversation in Venezuela uh
in a castle in a palace yeah until it
runs out and then uh and then the
government storms the castle Yeah
have you talked to Russ since no no I I
would I'd be open to it I don't think he
probably wants to hear from me and do
you know where in which prison he is
I think he's somewhere out in Arizona I
know he was in the one next to super max
for a little while like the the high
security one that's like shares the
fence with super max but I don't think
he's there anymore I think he's out in
Arizona I I haven't seen in a while I
wonder if you can do interviews in
prison that'll be nice some some people
are allowed to so I don't I've not seen
an interview with him I know people have
wanted to interview him about books and
that sort of thing right because the
story really blew up did it surprised
you how much the story
and many elements of it blew up movies
it did surprise me like it my wife's
uncle who I didn't I've been married my
wife for 22 years now I don't think he
knew my name and he was excited about
that he reached out when Silk Road came
out so he you know that was surprising
to say did you think the movie was uh on
the on the topic was good I didn't have
anything to do with that movie I've
watched it once it was kind of cool that
Jimmy Simpson you know was my name in
the movie but outside of that I thought
it sort of missed the mark on some
things when Hollywood I don't think they
understand what's interesting about
these kinds of stories and there's a lot
of things that are interesting and they
missed all of them so for example I
recently talked to John Carmack all
right who's a world-class developer and
so on so Hollywood would think that the
interesting thing about John Carmack is
some kind of like
uh shitty like a parody of a hacker or
something like that that would show like
really uh crappy like uh emulation of
some kind of Linux terminal thing the
reality is like the technical details
for five hours with him for 10 hours
with him is what people actually want to
see even people that don't program they
want to see a brilliant mind the the
details that they're not they even if
they don't understand all the details
they want to have an inkling of the
genius there that's just one way I'm
saying like that you want to reveal the
the genius the complexity of that world
in interesting ways and to make a
Hollywood almost parody caricature of it
it just destroys the spirit of the thing
so one
um
the operation FBI is fascinating
just tracking down these people do on
the cyber security front is fascinating
the other is just how you run
tour how you run this kind of
organization the trust issues of the
different criminal entities involved the
anonymity uh the
uh the law hanging fruit being shitty at
certain parts on the technical front all
those are fascinating things and you
know that's that's what a movie should
reveal should probably be a series
honestly a Netflix series than a movie
yeah maybe one on an fx show or
something like that because it was kind
of gritty you know yeah yeah pretty yeah
exactly gritty I mean uh shows like
Chernobyl from HBO made me realize okay
you can do a good job of a difficult
story and and like reveal the human side
but also reveal the technical side and
have some deep profound understanding on
that case on the bureaucracy of a of a
of a Soviet regime in this case you
could reveal the bureaucracy the chaos
of a criminal organization of uh law
enforcement organization I mean there's
so much to like explore it's fascinating
I don't know yeah I like Chernobyl when
I re-watch it I can't watch episode
three though the the the animals the
episode they go around shooting all the
dogs and all that I gotta skip that part
big soft yeah I really am yeah I'm sure
I'll probably cry at some point
I love it I love it listen don't get me
talking about that episode you made
about your grandmother oh my God that
was rough just to linger on this ethical
versus legal question what do you think
about people like Aaron Schwartz I don't
know if you're familiar with him but uh
he was somebody
uh who broke the law in the name of an
ethical ideal he uh downloaded and
released
um academic Publications that were
behind a paywall and
um he was arrested for that and then
committed suicide and a lot of people
see him certainly in the MIT Community
but throughout the world as a hero
because
you look at the way knowledge scientific
knowledge is being put behind paywalls
it does seem somehow unethical
and he basically
broke the law
to do the ethical thing
now you could challenge it maybe it is
unethical but that you know there's a
gray area and to me at least it is
ethical to me at least he is a hero
because I'm familiar with the paywall
created by uh the institutions that hold
these Publications they're adding very
little value
so it is basically holding hostage the
work of millions of brilliant scientists
um for for some kind of honesty a a
crappy capitalist institution like
they're not actually making that much
money it doesn't make any sense to me it
should to me it should all be open of
Public Access uh there's no reason it
shouldn't be all publication should be
so he stood for that ideal
and um
and was punished harshly for it that's
the other criticism was too harshly and
of course
uh deeply unfortunately that also led to
a suicide because he was also tormented
on many levels I mean do you are you
familiar with him what do you think
about that line between what is legal
and what is ethical
so it's tough It's a tough case I mean
the the outcome was tragic obviously
um
unfortunately when you're in law
enforcement you you have to your job is
to enforce the laws I mean you just not
if if you're told that you have to do a
certain case you know and there is a
violation of at the time you know 18 USC
10 10 30 computer hacking
um
you have to press forward with that I
mean that you have to charge the you you
bring the case to the university office
and whether they're going to press
charges or not you know you can't
you can't really pick and choose what
you press and don't press for it I never
felt that at least that flexibility not
in the FBI I mean maybe if you when
you're a street cop and you pull
somebody over you can let them go with a
warning so the FBI you're sitting in a
room but you're also you're also a human
being you have compassion you're
arrested Ross and the hand on the chest
I mean that's that's a human thing sure
so there's a but I'm I can't be the jury
for whether it was a good hack or a bad
hack
it's all someone a victim has come
forward and said we're the victim of
this and I agree with you because again
I like the basis of the internet was to
share academic thought yeah I mean
that's where the internet was born but
it's not it's not up to you so the the
role of the FBI
is to enforce the law correct
and you know there's a there's a limited
number of tools on our on our Batman
belt that we can use
um you know not to get into all the
aspects of the Trump case in Mar-A-Lago
and the documents there I mean the the
FBA has so many tools they can use in a
search warrant is the only way they
could get in there I mean that's it it's
a you know there's no other legal
document or legal way to enter and get
those documents what do you think about
the
the FBI and Mar-A-Lago and the FBI
taking the documents for Donald Trump
you know it's a tough spot I it's a
really tough spot the the FBI's got a
lot of black guys
um you know recently
um and I don't know if it's the same FBI
that I I remember when I was there do
you think they deserve it in part
was it done clumsily the the their
rating of uh the former president's
residence
yeah
um
it's tough It's you know because again
they're only limited to what they're
allowed what they're legally allowed to
do in a search warrant is the only legal
way of doing it
um I have my personal and political
views on certain things
um you know and and I think it might yes
it might be surprising to somewhere
those political
point stand but uh you told me Offline
that you're a hardcore communist that
was very strange very surprising to me
well that's only you try to bring me
into the Communist Party exactly I was
trying to recruit you giving you all
kinds of Flyers
um
okay but
um you said like you know people in the
FBI is just following the law but
there's a chain of command and so on uh
what do you think about the conspiracy
theories that people some small number
of people inside the FBI conspired to
undermine the presidency of Donald Trump
if you would have asked me when I was
inside and before all this happened I
would say it could never happen I I
don't believe in conspiracies you know
there's too many people involved that
somebody's going to come out with some
sort of information but I mean from the
more the stuff that comes out it's
surprising that you know agents are
being fired because of certain actions
they're taken inside
um and being dismissed because of
politically motivated actions
so do you think it's explicit or just
pressure just do you think there could
exist just pressure at the higher ups uh
that has a political leaning and you
kind of maybe don't explicitly order any
kind of thing but just kind of pressure
people to lean one way or the other and
and then create a culture that leans one
way or the other based on political
leanings you would really really hope
not but I mean that's seems to be the
narrative that's being written
but when you were operating you didn't
feel that pressure
man I was searched at a low level you
know I had no aspirations of being a
boss I wanted to be a case agent my
entire life she loved the puzzle of it
by the the chase I love solving things
yeah yeah to be management and manage
people and all that and like no desire
whatsoever
what do you think about Mark Zuckerberg
on Joe Rogan's podcast saying that the
FBI warned Facebook about potential
foreign interference
uh and then Facebook
inferred from that that they're talking
about Hunter Biden laptop story and
thereby censored it what do you think
about that whole story
again you asked me when I was in the FBI
I wouldn't believed it from being on the
inside I wouldn't believe these things
but there's a certain narrative being
written that is surprising to me that
the FBI is involved in these stories so
but the interesting thing there is
the FBI is saying that they didn't
really make that implication they're
saying that there's interference
activity happening just watch out and
it's a weird relationship between FBI
and Facebook you could see from the best
possible interpretation that the FBI
just wants Facebook to be aware because
it is a powerful platform a platform for
viral spread of misinformation so
in the best possible interpretation of
it it makes sense for FBI to send some
information saying like we we're seeing
some shady activity absolutely but it
seems like all of that somehow escalated
to a political interpretation I mean
yeah it sounded like there was a wink
wink with it
um the the I don't know if Mark
meant for that to be that way you know
like again are we being social
engineered or was that a true uh you
know expression that Mark had and I
wonder if the wink wink is direct or
it's just culture really you know maybe
certain people responsible on the
Facebook side and lean have a certain
political lean and then certain people
on the FBI side have a political lean
when they're interacting together and
it's like literally has nothing to do
with the giant conspiracy theory but
just with a culture that has a
particular uh political lean during a a
particular time in history and so like
uh maybe it could be a hunter buying
laptop one time and then it could be uh
whoever uh Donald Trump Jr's uh laptop
uh another time it's a tough job I mean
if you're the liaison if you're the
FBI's liaison to Facebook uh uh you know
there there's certain people that I'm
sure they were offered a position at
some point it seems we you know there's
FBI agents say goat I know I know a
couple that's gone to Facebook there's a
really good Agent that now leads up
their child exploitation stuff
um
another Squad mate runs their internal
investigations both great investigators
so you know there's good money
especially when you're an FBI agent
that's capped out at a you know a 1310
or whatever whatever pay scale you're
capped out at
um it's it's alluring to to be you know
maybe want to please them and uh and and
be asked to to join them yeah
and over time that corrupts
I think there has to be an introspection
in tech companies about the culture that
they develop about the um the political
ideology the bubble it's interesting to
see that bubble like I've um asked
myself
a lot of questions I've interviewed the
Pfizer CEO
um what seems now a long time ago
and I've gotten a lot of criticism uh
the positive comments but also criticism
from that conversation and I did a lot
of soul searching about the kind of
bubbles we have in this world and it
makes me wonder
pharmaceutical companies
they all believe
they're doing good
and I wonder
because the the idea they have is to
create drugs that help people and do so
at scale
and it's hard to know at which point
that can be corrupted it's hard to know
when it was corrupted and if it was
corrupted and where which which drugs
and which companies and so on
and I don't know I don't know that
complicated it seems like inside a
bubble you can convince yourself if
anything is good uh people inside the
the Third Reich regime were able to
convince themselves I'm sure many just
um bloodlands is another book I've been
really recently reading about it and the
ability of humans to convince they're
doing good when they're clearly
murdering and torturing people in front
of their eyes
is fascinating
they're able to convince themselves
they're doing good it's crazy
like there's not even a inkling of Doubt
um yeah that I don't I don't know what
to make of that so
um it has taught me to be a little bit
more careful when I enter into different
bubbles
to um
be skeptical about what's taken as an
assumption of Truth
like you always have to be skeptical
about like what's assumed is true is it
possible it's not true
um you know if you're doing if you're
talking about the America
uh it's assumed that uh you know in
certain places that surveillance is good
well let's let's question that uh that's
that assumption
um yeah and I I also it inspired me to
question my own assumptions that I I
hold this true
constantly uh constantly it's tough it's
tough but you don't grow I mean do you
want to be just static and not grow you
have to question yourself on some of
these things if you want to grow as a
person
yeah for sure uh one of the tough things
actually of being a public personality
when you speak publicly is you get
attacked
all along the way as you're growing
right and and um uh in part a big softy
as well if I may say and those heart it
hurts it hurts it hurts do you pay
attention to it
yeah
um yeah yeah yeah it's very hard like I
have two choices one you can uh shut
yourself off from the world and ignore
it I've I never found that compelling
this kind of idea of like Haters Gonna
Hate yeah like uh
this idea that uh anyone with a big
platform or anyone's ever done anything
was always gotten hate you know okay
maybe but like I still want to be
vulnerable where my heart and my sleeve
really show myself like open myself to
the world really listen to people and
that means every once in a while
somebody will say something that touches
me in a way that's like
what if they're right do you let that
hate influence you I mean can you be
bullied into a different opinion than
you think you really are just because of
that hate no no I believe not but
it hurts in a way that's hard to explain
like um
yeah it just it gets to like a
it shakes your faith in humanity
actually is is probably why it hurts
like um
people that um
call me a Putin apologist or as a
landscape apologist which I'm currently
getting almost an equal amount of
but it hurts
it hurts because I
um it hurts because it like it it
damages slightly my faith in humanity to
be able to see
um
the love that connects us and then to
see that I'm trying to find that
and that's I'm doing my best in the in
the limited capabilities I have to find
that and so to call me something uh like
a bad actor essentially from whatever
perspective it just makes me realize
well
um people don't have empathy and
compassion for each other it makes me
question that for a brief moment and
that that's like a crack and it hurts
how many people do this to your face
foreign
I have to be honest that uh it's it
happens yeah because I've hung around
with uh with Rogan enough
when your platform grows there's people
that will come up to Joe and say stuff
to his face
that they forget they they still
um they forget he's actually a real
human being
they'll they'll make accusations about
him so does that cause him to wall
himself off more no he's uh he's pretty
gangster on that but uh yeah it still
hurts if you're if you're human if
you've really um
feel others I think that's also the
difference with with Joe and me he has a
his family that he deeply loves and
that's an escape from the world form
um there's a loneliness in me that's I'm
always longing to connect with people
and with like regular people and like
just to to learn their stories and so on
and so if you open yourself up that way
the things they tell you can really hurt
in every way like uh just have me going
to Ukraine just seeing so much loss and
death
some of it is like
uh is I mean unforgettably haunting not
in some kind of political way activist
way or uh who's right who's wrong way
but just like
man like so much pain you see it just
stays with you when you see a human
being bad to another human you can't get
rid of that in your head
you can't imagine that you that that we
can treat each other like that that's
the hard part I think I mean it is it
that for me it is
when I saw parents like when I did the
child exploitation stuff when they
rented their children out they literally
rented infant children out to others for
sexual gratification
like I don't know how a human being
could do that to another human being
and that that sounds like the kind of
thing you're going through I mean I went
through a huge Funk when I did those
cases afterwards I should have talked to
somebody but in the FBI you have to keep
that machismo up or they're gonna take
your gun away from you well I think
that's examples of evil
um
that that's like the worst of human
nature but I just like just because I
have war is just as bad I mean somehow
War
it's somehow understandable given all
the very intense propaganda that's
happening
so it's you can understand
um
that there is love in the heart of the
soldiers on each side given the
information they're given there's a lot
of people on the Russian side believe
they're saving these Ukrainian cities
from Nazi occupation
uh now there is stories
uh there is a lot of evidence of people
for fun murdering civilians now that
that is closer to the things you've
experienced of like evil yeah
um of evil embodied and I haven't
interacted with with that directly with
people who for fun murdered civilians
which you know it's there in the world I
mean you're not naive to it yes but if
you experience that directly if somebody
shot somebody for fun in front of me
that would probably break me yeah like
seeing yourself knowing that it exists
is different than seeing it yourself
now I've interacted with victims of that
and they tell me stories and you see
their homes destroyed destroyed for no
good military reason it's civilians with
civilian holes being destroyed that
really lingers with you but some yeah
the people that are capable of that but
that goes with the propaganda I mean if
you were to build a story you have to
you know you have to have on the other
side you know the homes are going to be
destroyed the non-military targets are
going to be destroyed to put it in
perspective I'm not sure a lot of people
understand the Deep human side or even
the military strategy side of this war
there's a lot of experts outside of the
situation that are commenting on it with
certainty and that kind of hurts me
because I feel like there's a lot of
uncertainty there's so much propaganda
it's very difficult to know what is true
yeah so so my whole Hope was
to travel to Ukraine to travel to Russia
to talk to soldiers to talk to leaders
to talk to real people that have lost
homes that have lost family members that
uh who this war has divided who this war
changed completely how they see the
world uh whether they have love or hate
in their heart to understand their
stories
um I've learned a lot on The Human Side
to things by having talked to a lot of
people there but it has been on the
Ukrainian side for me currently
traveling to the Russian side is more
difficult
foreign
let me ask you about your now friend can
we go as far as it says friend uh in
asabu and Hector massager
what's the uh what's what's the story
what's your long story with him can you
tell me about
what is LOL sec
who is Sabu
and who's Anonymous what is anonymous
where's the right place to start that
story probably anonymous anonymous is a
was a decent it still is I guess a
decentralized organization uh they call
themselves headless but once you look
into them a little ways they're not
really headless
um the the power struggle comes with
whoever has a hacking ability
um that might be you're a good hacker or
you have a giant bot net used for DDOS
um so so you're gonna wield more power
if you can control where it goes
Anonymous started doing their like
hacktivism stuff in 2010 or so
um the word hack was in the media all
the time then
um and then right around then there's a
federal contractor named HB Gary Federal
the the CEO is Aaron Barr and Aaron Barr
said he was going to come out and
de-anonymize anonymous
he's gonna come out and talk at
blackhead or Defcon or one of those and
say you know who they are he figured it
out or so he could figure it out by
based on uh you know when people are
online when people were in IRC when
tweets came out it was there was no
scientific proof behind it or anything
uh so he's just gonna falsely name
people that were that were in anonymous
so Anonymous went on the attack they
went and hacked an ATV HPA Federal and
they turned his life upside down they
took over his Twitter account and all
that stuff
um pretty quickly so I have very mixed
feelings about all of this okay I get
like part of me
admires the positive side of the
hacktivism okay
is there no room for admiration there of
the fuck you to the man not at the time
again it was the violation the 18 USC 10
30. so it was my job that's what I you
know so at the time no in retrospect
sure
yeah but uh uh what was the philosophy
of the hacktivism was it the
philosophically were they at least
expressing it for the good of humanity
or no they outwardly said that they were
going to go after people that they
thought were corrupt so they were
judging jury on corruption they were to
go after it
once you get on inside and realize what
they were doing they were going after
people that they had an opportunity to
go after
um so maybe someone had a zero day and
then they searched for servers running
that zero day and then from there let's
find a Target I mean one time they went
after a toilet paper company I still
don't understand what that toilet paper
company did but it was an opportunity to
make a splash is there some somewhere
for the joke for the lulls it developed
into that so I think the hacktivism and
the anonymous stuff wasn't so much for
the LOLs
um but from that HP gear Federal hack
then there were six guys that worked
well together and they formed a crew a
hacking crew and they kind of split off
into their own private channels and that
was lol SEC or laughing at your security
was their motto
so that's
l-u-l-z-s-e-c Luz SEC of course it is
sex and uh
who founded that organization so Kayla
and Sabu were the hackers of the group
and so they really did all the work on
HP Gary so these are code names yeah
they're online names they're they're
Knicks
um and so you know they they and they
that's all they knew each other as
you know they talk to us as those names
um and they worked well together and so
they formed a hacking crew and that's
when they started the the at first they
didn't name it this was the 50 days of
LOLs where they would just release
major major breaches
um and it stirred up the media I mean it
put hacking in on in the media every day
uh they had 400 or 500 000 Twitter
followers
um you know and it was kind of
interesting
um but then they started swinging at the
Beehive and they they took out some FBI
Affiliated sites uh and then they
started uh fuck FBI Fridays uh where
every every Friday they would release
something and we waited it for baited
breath I mean they had us alkaline and
sinker pissed uh we were waiting to see
what was going to be dropped every
Friday here it was
it's a little embarrassing looking back
on it now and this is in the early 2010s
yeah this was 2010 2011 around there so
I actually Linger on um
Anonymous what do you still understand
what the heck is anonymous it's just a
place where you hang out I mean it's
just to start on 4chan with Han and then
it's really just anyone you could be an
anonymous right now if you wanted to
just you're in there hanging out in the
channel now you're probably not going to
get much cred until you work your way up
and prove who you are someone vouches
for you uh but anybody can be an
anonymous and if we can leave Anonymous
what's the leadership of anonymous do
you have a sense that there is a
leadership there's a power play you know
it's not someone that you know that says
this is what we're doing all we're doing
I love the
the philosophical and the technical
aspect of all of this but I think there
is a slippery slope to where for the
laws you can actually
really hurt people
that's that's the terrifying thing when
you attach
I'm actually really terrified of the
power of the lull
it's the fun thing somehow becomes a
slippery slope I haven't quite
understood the Dynamics of that but even
in myself if you just have fun with a
thing you lose track of the ethical
grounding of the thing and so like it
feels like hacking for fun can just turn
it like literally lead to nuclear war
like literally destabilize yeah like
yada yada yada nuclear war I could see
it yeah
and so I've been more careful with the
lull uh uh I I'm very yeah I've been
more careful about that and I wonder
about it because an internet speak
somehow ethics can be put aside
uh through the slippery slope of
language
I don't know everything becomes a joke
if everything's a joke then everything
is allowed and everything's allowed then
you don't have a sense of what is right
and wrong you lose sense of what is
right and wrong you still have victims I
mean you're laughing at someone
someone's the butt of this joke
you know whether it's major corporations
or the individuals I mean some of the
stuff they did was just you know
releasing people's pii and their
personal identifying information and
stuff like that I mean is it a big deal
I don't know maybe maybe not but you
know if you could choose to not have
your information put out there probably
wouldn't
we do have a sense of what Anonymous is
today is it has it ever been one stable
organization or is it a collection of
hackers that kind of emerge
for particular tasks for particular uh
like a hacktivism task and that kind of
stuff it's a collection of people that
has some hackers in it there's not a lot
of big hackers in it I mean there are
some that have come bounce in and bounce
out even back then there's probably just
as many reporters in it people the media
in it with the than hackers at the time
just trying to get the inside scoop on
things
you know some giving the inside scoop
you know we arrested a reporter that
gave over the uh username and password
to his newspaper and uh you know just so
he could break the story
he trusted him
speaking of trust reporters boy there's
good ones there's good ones there are
but boy do I have a complicated
relationship with them how many stories
about you are completely true
you can just make stuff up on the
internet and one of the things that
I mean there's so many fascinating
psychological sociological elements of
the internet uh to me one of them is
that you can say that
um Lex is a lizard right and if it's not
funny uh so lizard is kind of funny what
should we say
um Lex has admitted to being an agent of
the FBI okay you can just say that right
right and then the response that the
internet would be like oh is that true I
didn't realize that they won't go like
provide evidence please right they'll
just say like oh that's weird I didn't I
kind of thought he might be kind of
weird and then it piles on it's like hey
hey guys
like here's a random dude on the
internet just said a random thing you
can't just like pile up as and then
Johnny 6969 is now a source that says
and then like the thing is I'm I'm a
tiny guy but when it grows uh if you're
like have a big platform I feel like
newspapers will pick that up and then
they'll like start to build on a story
and you never know where that story
really started it's so cool I mean to me
actually honestly it's kind of cool that
there there's a viral nature of the
internet that can just fabricate truth
completely I think we have to accept
that new reality and try to deal with it
somehow you can't just like complain
that Johnny 69 can start a random thing
but I I think in the best possible world
it is the role of the journalist to be
the adult in the room and put a stop to
it versus look for the sexiest story so
that they could be click bait that can
generate money a journalism should be
about
sort of slowing things down thinking
deeply through what is true or not and
showing that to the world I think
there's a lot of hunger for that and I
think that would actually get the most
Clicks in the end I mean it's that same
pressure I think we're talking about
with the FBI and with the the tech
companies about controls I mean the
editors have to please and get those
clicks I mean they're measured by those
clicks so you know I'm sure the
journalists the true journalists the
good ones out there want that but they
want to stay employed too can I actually
ask you really as another tangent the
Jared and others uh they're doing
undercover in terms of the tools you
have
for catching cyber security criminals
how much of his undercover undercover is
a high bar to jump over you have to do a
lot to start an undercover in the FBI
there's a lot of thresholds
um so it's not your first investigative
tool step you have to identify a problem
and then show that the lower steps can't
get you there
um but I mean I think we we had an
undercover going on the squad about all
times when one was being shut down or
taken down we were spinning up another
one so it's a good tool to have
um you know and utilize they're a lot of
work I don't think if you run one you'll
never run another one in your life
oh so it's like psychologically is it
there's all a lot of work just
technically but also psychologically
like you have to really uh it's 24 7
you're inside that world like you have
to know what's going on and what's
happening you you know you're taking on
you have to remember who you are when
you're because you're you're a criminal
online
you have to go to a special school for
it too was that ever something
compelling to you I went through the
school but I'm pretty open and honest
guy and so it's tough for me to to Build
That Wall of Lies
um it's maybe I'm just not smart enough
to keep all the lies straight yeah but a
guy who's good at building up a wall of
Lies would say that exact same exactly
it's so annoying the way truth Works in
this world it's like uh I think people
have told me like because I'm trying to
be honest and transparent that's exactly
what an agent would do right
um but I feel like an agent would not
wear a suit and tie
I wore a suit and tie every day
I was a suit and tie guy you were yeah
every day I remember one time I wore
shorts in and the sac came in and this
was when I was I was a rock star at the
time in the bureau and I had shorts in
and uh
um I said sorry ma'am I apologize for my
attire and she goes you could wear bike
shorts in here I wouldn't care I was
like oh shit that sounds nice
I never wore the bike shorts but yeah
but see I don't I see a suit and ties
constraining I think it's it's
liberating and so it's it's like uh
shows that you're taking the moment
seriously well not just that people
wanted it I mean people expected when
you knock you you are dressed like the a
perfect FBI agent When someone knocks on
their door that's what they want to see
they want to see what Hollywood built up
is what an FBI agent is you show up like
my friend no one he was dressed always
in t-shirts and shorts people aren't
going to take him serious they're not
going to give them what they want I
wonder how many police I can just show
up and like Sam from the FBI start
interrogating them like at a bar
probably like definitely if they've had
a few drinks you could definitely well
but people are going to recognize you
that's the only problem that's another
thing you start taking out a big big
cases you can't wear cases anymore in
the FBI your face gets out there and
your name too yeah yeah
well actually let me ask you about that
before we return to our friend Sabu okay
um you've you've tracked and
worked on some of the most dangerous
people in this world
um have you ever feared for your life
so I had to make a really really shitty
phone call one time
um I was sitting in the bureau and this
was right after Silk Road
um and Jared called me he was back in
Chicago and he called me and said hey
your your name and your kid's name were
on a website for an assassination
they're they're paying to have you guys
killed
now these things happen on the black
market they come up you know and when
you know people debate whether they're
real or not but we have to take it
serious someone's paying to have me
killed me so I had to call my wife and
we have a word
um and that if I said this word and we
only said it one time to each other if I
said this would this is serious drop
what you're doing and get to the kids
um and so I had to drop the word to her
um and
I could feel the breath come out of her
because her she thought her kids were in
danger and when they then at the time
they were
um
I wasn't in a state of mind to drive
myself so a an agent on the squad and a
girl named Evelina she drove me lights
and Sirens all the way to my kids school
um and
we had locked I called the school we
were in a lockdown
um nobody should get in or out
especially someone with a gun
um the first thing they did was let me
in the building with a gun so I was a
little disappointed with that
um my kids were I think kindergarten and
fifth grade or somewhere around there
maybe they're closer second year I'm not
sure where
um but all hell broke loose and we had
to from there go move into a safe house
I live in New York City NYPD surrounded
my house the FBI put cameras outside my
house you couldn't drive in my
neighborhood without like uh your
license plate being read uh hey why is
this person here why is that person
there
I got to watch my house on an iPad while
I sat at my desk
um but you know again I put my family
through that and it scared the shit out
of them
um and that that's to be honest I think
that's sort of uh my mother-in-law's
words were I thought you did cyber crime
and because during Silk Road I didn't
tell my family what I was working on
I'll talk about that so like I want to
escape that I don't want to be there you
know I remember that like so when I was
in the FBI like driving in I used to go
in at 4 30 every morning
um because I like to go to the gym
before I hit go to the desk I would be
at the desk at seven so in the gym at
five a couple hours and then then go
the the best time I had was that
Drive-In in the morning where I could
just be myself I listened to a sports
podcast out of DC
um and I I we talked about sports and
you know the Nationals and whatever it
was the capitals like you know it was
great to not think about Silk Road for
10 minutes
so but that was my best time but but
yeah again so yeah I I've had that
moving to the safe house I left my mb5
at home that's the the bureau's machine
gun
um showed my wife to just pull pull and
spray so uh but how often did you live
or work and live with fear in your heart
it was only that time I mean in my for
actual physical security
um then I mean after the anonymous stuff
I you know I really tightened down to my
cyber security
um you know I don't have social media I
don't have pictures of me and my kids
online I don't really if I go to a
wedding or something I say I don't take
my picture with with my kids you know if
you're gonna post it someplace or
something like that
um so that sort of security I have
um but you know just like everybody you
start to relax a little bit and security
breaks down because it's not convenient
but it's also part of your job so you're
you're much better at
um let me your job now in your job
before so you're probably much better
taking care of the low hanging fruit at
least
I understand the threat and I think
that's what a lot of people don't
understand is understanding what the
threat against them is so so I'm aware
of that what what possibly and I think
about it you know I think about things I
do remember so you you tripped a memory
in my my mind
um I remember a lot of times and I had a
gun on my hip I still carry a gun to
this day
opening my front door and being
concerned what was on the other side
leave walking out of the house yeah
because I couldn't see it I remember
when those four o'clocks get into the
car
I I I was literally scared yeah
I mean having seen some of the things
you've seen it makes you perhaps
question
how much evil there is out there in the
world how many dangerous people there
are there out there
crazy people even
but there's a lot of crazy there's a lot
of evil most people I think get into
like cyber crime or just opportunistic
not necessarily evil they don't really
know maybe think about the victim they
just do as it's a crime of opportunity
you know
I I don't label that as evil and one of
the things about America that I'm also
very happy about
is that rule of law despite everything
we talk about there is it's tough to be
a criminal in the United States
so like if you walk outside your house
you're much safer you than you are in
most other places in the world you're
safer and and the system's tougher uh I
mean uh low SEC six guys one guy in the
United States Five Guys other places
um Hector was facing 125 years those
guys got slaps on the wrist and went
back to college
you know different laws different places
so who's Hector
tell me the story of Hector so this
lawsack organization was started so
Hector was before that in uh
he was he was in part Anonymous here's
all the kids doing all kinds of hacking
stuff but then he launched wall SEC he's
old school hacker I mean he he's he
learned how to hack and I don't want to
tell his story but he he learned to hack
because he grew up in the Lower East
Side of New York and uh and picked up
some NYPD computers that were left on
this on the sidewalk for trash yeah
taught himself how to it doesn't exactly
look like a hacker for people don't know
he he looks I don't know exactly what he
looks like but not not a not like a
technical not what you would imagine
uh but perhaps that's that's uh that's a
Hollywood portrayal yeah I think you get
in trouble these days saying that uh
that what a hacker looks like I don't
know if they have a traditional look
just like I said Hollywood has an idea
of an FBI looks like yeah I don't think
you can do that anymore I don't think
you can say that anymore well he uh
certainly has a big personality and
Charisma and all that kind of stuff
that's taboo I can again I can see him
selling me anything that's convincing me
of it you know they're two different
people they're Sabu and there's Hector
Hector Hector is a sweet guy that he he
likes to have intellectual conversations
and like that's just a thing he he'd
rather you know just sit there and have
a one-on-one conversation with you but
saboo that that's a ruthless
motherfucker and you first met Sabu I
was tracking all I knew was that boo I
didn't know Hector so when did your
paths cross well in terms of tracking
when did you first take on the case the
spring of a 11
. so it was through Anonymous through
Anonymous but then really kind of a
little SEC
um we were low SEC was a big thing and
it was pushed out to all the Cyber you
know 56 field offices in the FBI
um most of them have cyber squads or
cyber units and so you know it was being
pushed out there and it was in the news
every day but it really wasn't ours so
that we didn't have a lot of victims in
our aor area of responsibility
um and so we just kind of pay attention
to it then I got a tip that a local
hacker in New York had broken into AOL
and so
Olivia Olivia Olson and I she's another
agent who she's still in she's a
supervisor out in La she's a great agent
we went all around New York looking for
this kid
um just to see what we can find and
ended up out in Staten Island uh at his
grandmother's house she didn't know
where he was obviously why would she
um but I left my card
um he gave me a call that night started
talking to me and I said let's just meet
up tomorrow at the McDonald's across
from 26 fed and he came in and three of
us sat there and talked and you know
gave me a stuff he started telling me
about all the felonies he was committing
those days including that break into AOL
um and then he finally says you know you
know I can give you Sabu and Sabu to us
was the Kaiser so stay back and he was
our guy uh you know he was the guy that
was in the news that was pissing us off
so so he was part a part of the FBI
Fridays that we was yeah oh he led it
yeah he was the leader of fuck FBI
Fridays so yeah
what was one of the more memorable uh F
the triple F's
I said what how how do you get why how
and why do you go after the Beehive
that's kind of intense you get you on
the news it gets you it's the it's the
the lulls it's funnier to go after the
big ones you know and they weren't
getting like real FBI they weren't
breaking into FBI mainframes or anything
but they you know they were uh you know
affiliate sites or anything that I do a
lot of law enforcement stuff was coming
out so but you know
we looked back and so if this kid knew
that Sabu we maybe there was a chance we
could use them a little to lure Sabu out
but we also said well maybe this kid
knows Cebu in real life and so we went
looked through the IPS and 10 million
IPS we find one and it belonged to him
and so
that that day Sabu um someone had doxxed
Sabu
um and uh we were a little afraid he was
gonna be on the Run we had a
surveillance team and FBI surveillance
teams are awesome like you cannot even
tell their FBI agents it's it's in it's
they are really that good I mean there's
baby strollers and all whatever you
wouldn't expect an FBI agent to have so
that's a little like the movies a little
bit yeah I mean it is true but and but
they fit into the area so now they're on
the Lower East Side which is you know
you know a baby stroller might not fit
in there as well as you know somebody's
laying on the ground or something like
that
um they really get play the character
and get into it so now I I can never
trust a baby stroller Yeah well yeah
probably shouldn't every every baby I'm
just like look at stare at them
suspiciously especially if the mom's
wearing cargo pants while she pushes it
so yes if it's like a verse
stereotypical Mama stereotypical baby
I'm gonna be very suspicious I'm gonna
question the baby that baby's wired
you know we raced out there and like our
squad's not even full there's only a few
guys there and like I said I I was a
suit guy but that day I had shorts and a
t-shirt on I had a white T-shirt on
um and I only bring it up because Sabu
makes fun of me to this day so I had a
bulletproof vest and a white T-shirt on
and that was it like shorts tune and all
that but
um raced over to there we didn't have
any equipment
um we brought our bosses bosses boss he
stopped off at NYPD got us like a
ballistic shield uh and a battering ram
if we needed it
um and then we get to Hector's house
sabu's house and he's on the sixth floor
um and so normally you know we're the
the Cyber dork Squad
um we'll hop in the elevator six floors
is a long ways to go up and bulletproof
vest and a ballistic shield but but we
had been caught in an elevator before on
a search so we we didn't took the stairs
um
we get to the top uh Tad winded
um but uh knock on the door in this big
towering guy opens the door just
slightly and he sees the green vest with
big yellow letters FBI and he steps
outside
um yeah can I help you you know it tries
to social engineer US uh but eventually
we get our way inside the house
um you know I noticed a few things that
are kind of out of place
um there's a laptop charger and a
flashing modem and I said well do you
have a computer here and he said no
there's no computer here
um so we we knew the the truce and then
the half-lies and all that sort of thing
so it took us about another two hours
and finally he gave up that he was that
boo he was the guy we were looking for
uh so we sat there and we kind of showed
him sort of the evidence we had against
him
um and you know from his words we sat
there and talked uh talked like uh two
grown adults and you know I gave him the
options and he said well let's uh let's
talk about working together
so he chose to become an informant
I don't think he chose that night but
that's where it kind of went to
um so the the we brought him down to the
FBI that night
um which was it was a funny trip because
I'm sitting in the back seat of the car
with him
um and I was getting calls from all over
uh the US from different FBI agents
saying that we arrested the wrong guy
I was like I don't think so and they're
like why do you think so I was like
because he says it's him uh and they
still said not the wrong guy so I said
well we'll see how it plays out that's
so interesting because it's it's such a
strange world it's such a strange world
because it's it's tough to because you
still have to prove it's the same guy
right
because the anonymity yeah I mean we had
his laptop by the you know by that point
yeah I know he was saying that helped
again I'm a clue in my world
yeah yeah but yeah if he would have
fought it I mean that definitely would
have come in as evidence that ever FBI
agents are saying it's not him you have
to disclose that stuff so he had a lot
of stuff on him
um what was he facing if um he was
raised 125 years 125 years in prison
that's that now that's if you took every
charge we had against him and put him
you know uh consecutively no no one ever
gets charged that but yeah he had
essentially it would have been under 25
years you know fast forward to the end
he got thanked by the judge for his
service after nine months
and he walked out of the court of free
man
but that's being while being an
informant
well so
the word informant here really isn't
that good it does it's not fitting that
technically I guess that's what he was
but he didn't know the other people it
was all not he knew Nicks and all that
um he really gave us the Insight of what
was happening in the hacker world like I
said he was an old school hacker he back
when hackers didn't work together with
Anonymous even though he was down you
know Cult of dead cow and those type
guys like way back
um and he was around for that he's like
an encyclopedia of hacking but you know
we just kissed Prime was in the 90s
for Terror hack but yeah he kind of came
back when uh when Anonymous started
going after MasterCard and PayPal and
all that do the wikileak stuff
but even even that little interaction
being an informant he probably made a
lot of enemies does how do you protect a
guy like that he made enemies after it
was revealed yeah
how does the FBI protect him yeah good
luck
uh I mean perhaps I'll talk to him one
day uh but uh is that guy afraid for his
life
I I again I think it doesn't seem like
it he has very good security uh for
himself cyber security
um but you know I I yeah he doesn't like
the negative thing said about him online
uh I don't think anybody does
um but you know I think it's so many
years of the internet kind of
bitching at you and all that you get
Callister it's just internet bitching
and also the the hacking world moves on
very quickly he he is kind of um he's
yeah like they're they're have their own
Wars to fight now and he's not part of
those Wars anymore there's still people
out there that that bitch and moan about
him but but yeah I think it's less
um I I think you know he has a good
message out there of you know
he he trying to keep kids from making
the same mistakes he made
he tries to really preach that
how do people get into this line of work
is there all kinds of ways being uh not
not not your line of work his line of
work it's just all the stories you've
seen of people that are in Anonymous and
LOL sick and Silk Road and all the Cyber
criminals you've interacted with what's
uh what's the profile of a cyber
Criminal I don't think there's a profile
anymore you know I used to be able to
say you know the kid in your mom's
basement or something like that but it's
not true anymore
you know like it's it's it's wide it's
like I've arrested
I've arrested people that you wouldn't
expect would be cyber criminals
and it's in the United States it's
International it's everything oh it's
International I mean we're seeing a lot
of the big hackers now the big arrests
for hackers in England so surprisingly
you know there's you know you're not
going to see there's a lot of good
hackers like down in Brazil but I don't
think Brazil law enforcement is as good
as hunting them down so you're not going
to see the big arrests how much
state-sponsored
uh cyber attacks are there do you think
more than you can imagine
and what wait what do you want to say an
attack you had a successful attack or
just a probing probing for information
just like feeling you know testing that
there's where the attack factors are
trying to collect all the possible
attacks put a Windows 7 machine on the
internet forward-facing and put a put a
packet sniffer on there and look at
where the driver comes from I mean it's
been 24 hours you were going to fill up
a hard drive with packets just coming at
it yeah I mean it's it's not hard to to
know I mean it's just constantly probing
for entry points into things you know
you could you could go mad put up
Honeypot draws intrusions should I see
what messages to see what's out there
yeah and it doesn't go anywhere it maybe
has fake information and stuff like that
um you know it's just kind of to see
what's going on and judge what's
happening uh the internet gonna you know
lick your finger and test the wind of
what's happening these days the funny
thing about like because I'm at MIT that
attracted even more attention for the
not for the laws but for the technical
challenge it seems like people enjoy
hacking MIT it's just the amount of
traffic MIT was getting for that in
terms of just the sheer number of
attacks from different places is crazy
yeah like just like that putting up a
machine seeing what comes NASA used to
be the golden ring now everybody got
NASA that was like the early 90s if you
could hack NASA that was the now yeah
MIT is a big one yeah it's fun it's fun
to see
uh respect
uh because I think in that case it comes
from a somewhat good place because you
know they're not getting any money for
my ID it's more for the challenge
let me ask you about that about this
world of cyber security
um how big of a threat are cyber attacks
for companies and for individuals like
let's lay out where are we in this world
what's out there it's the Wild Wild West
and it's it's it's
uh I mean
people want the idea of security but
it's inconvenient so they don't they
push back on it
um and there are a lot of opportunistic
nation-state financially motivated
hackers hackers for the lulls you got
three different tiers there
um and and they're they're on the prowl
they have tools they have really good
tools that are being used against us
and I would scale so when you're
thinking of
I don't know what's let's talk about
companies first so say you're you're
talking to um a mid-tier
I wonder what the more most interesting
business is so Google let's let's we can
look at large tech companies and we can
look at
medium-sized tech companies and like you
were sitting in a room with a CTO with a
CEO
and the the question is how fucked are
we and what should we do what's the low
hanging fruit what's what what are the
different strategies and uh those
companies should consider I mean the
problem is they want a push button they
wanna they wanna out of the box solution
that I'm secure you know they want to
tell people they're secure but and
that's very challenging to have it's
impossible but like if I could if
someone had it they'd be a billionaire
uh you know they'd be Beyond a
billionaire you know because that's what
everybody wants so it's you know you can
buy all the tools you want it's
configuring them the proper way and
there's if anyone's trying to tell you
uh that there's one solution that fits
all their snake hole salesman and
there's a lot of people in cyber
security that are staying all salesmen
yeah and I feel like there's tools if
they're not configured correctly
they uh they just introduce
they don't increase security
significantly and they introduce a lot
of pain for the people they uh decrease
efficiency of the actual work you have
to do so like uh we had um I was at
Google for a Time
and
I think mostly I want to give props to
their security efforts
but user data so like data that belongs
to users is like the holy
like the amount of security they have
around that is incredible so most any
time I had to work with anything even
resembling user days I never got a
chance to work with actual user data
anything resembling that first of all
you have no access to the internet it's
impossible to even come close to the
access to the internet and there's so
much pain to actually like interact with
that data where it I mean it's it was
extremely inefficient in places where I
thought it didn't have to be that
inefficient the security was too much
but I have to give respect to that
because you in that case you want to err
on the side of security but that's
Google yeah they were doing a good job
of this the reputational harm if it got
out I mean Google you know why is Google
Drive free you know because they want
your data they want you to park your
data there so you know if the re if they
got hacked or leaked information the
reputational harm would be tremendous
but you know for a company that not it's
really hard to do that right and the
company's not as big as Google or not as
tech savvy as Google might have a lot of
trouble with doing that kind of stuff
instead instead of increasing security
they'll just decrease the efficiency
well yeah so so there's a big difference
between I.T and security and
unfortunately like these mid-side
companies they try to stack security
into their I.T Department your it
department is about business continuity
they're about trying to move business
forward they want their users to get the
data they need to do their job so the
company can grow security is not that
they don't want you to get the data they
you know but there's there's fine tuning
you can do to you know ensure that I
mean as simple as like having good
onboarding procedures for employees like
like you come into my company you don't
need access to everything maybe you need
access to something for one day turn the
access on don't leave it on I mean I was
the victim of the OPM act the office of
personnel management because old
credentials from a third-party vendor
were sitting there and active and the
Chinese government found those
credentials and were able to log in and
steal all my information so a lot could
be helped if you just control the
credentials the access the access
control how long they last and people
who have who need access to a certain
thing
only get access to that thing and not
nothing else and then and it just gets
refreshed like that access control you
know like we said setting up people
leaving people leaving the company get
rid of their they don't need control
two-factor authentication you know
that's a big thing you know we it's it's
I mean I sound like a broken record
because this isn't anything new this
isn't rocket science the problem is
we're not implementing it and we're not
if we are we're not doing it correctly
uh because these guys are taking taking
us well two-factor authentication is a
good example of something
that I just was annoyed by for the
longest time because yes it's very good
but like it's it seems that it's pretty
easy to implement horribly to where it's
like it's not convenient at all for the
for the legitimate user to use it should
be trivial to to do uh like to
authenticate yourself twice should be
super easy if security if it's slightly
inconvenient for you it's think about
how inconvenient is for a hacker and how
this is just going to move on to the
next person yes yes in theory when
implemented extremely well yeah but I I
just don't think so I think actually if
it's
inconvenient it shows that system has
been thought through a lot do you know
why we need two-factor authentication
people using the same password across
the same site so when one site is
compromised people just take that
username and password it's called
credential stuffing and just stuff it
across the internet so if 10 years ago
when we told everybody don't use the
same fucking password across the
internet across the frontal sites maybe
two-factor wouldn't be needed yeah so
you would need to factor if everyone did
a good job with passwords yeah
right but I'm saying like the two Factor
authentication it should uh it should be
super easy to authenticate myself uh in
some with some other device really
quickly like there should be it should
be frictionless like you just hit okay
okay and anything that belongs to me
yeah and like I should it should very
importantly be easy to set up what
belongs to me uh I don't know the full
complexity of the cyber attacks these
platforms are under they're probably
under insane amount of attacks yeah
you've got it right there that people
have no idea these large companies how
often they're attacked you know on a per
second basis and they have to fight all
that off and pick out the good traffic
in there so yeah I would there's no way
I'd want to run a large tech company
what about protecting individuals for
individuals
what's good advice for to try to protect
yourself from this increasingly
dangerous world of cyber attacks again
educate yourself that you understand
that there is a threat first you have to
realize that then then you're going to
step up and you're going to do stuff a
little bit more sometimes I guess think
I could take that to a little bit
extreme I remember one time uh uh my mom
called me and she was uh screaming that
uh I woke up this morning and I just
clicked on a link and now my phone is
making weird noises and I was like
throw your phone in a glass of water
just put in a glass of water right now
and she's I made my mom cry it was not a
pleasant thing
um so sometimes I go to a little
extremes on those ones but but
understanding is a risk and making it a
little bit more a little more difficult
to become a victim I mean just
understanding certain things
um you know simple things like you know
as we add more internet of things to
people's houses I mean how many Wi-Fi
networks do people have it's normally
just one and you're bumping your phones
and giving your password to be able to
come to visit
set up a guest Network set up something
you can change every 30 days simple
little things like that
um you know I hate to remind you but
change your passwords I mean I feel like
I'm a broken record again but just make
it more difficult for others to
victimize you and then don't use the
same password everywhere that that yes I
mean I still I still know people that do
that I mean ask.fm got popped last week
two weeks ago and that's 350 million
username and passwords with connected
Twitter accounts Google accounts uh you
know all the different social media
accounts you know that is a treasure
Trove for the next two and a half three
years of just using those credentials
everywhere using you'll learn even if
it's not the right password you learn
people's password Styles you know bad
guys are making portfolios out of people
uh you know we're figuring out how
people generate their passwords and kind
of you know figuring and then it's
easier to crack their password
you know we're making a dossier on each
person it's 350 million dossiers just in
that one hack Yahoo there was a half a
billion
so the the thing a hacker would do with
that is try to find all the link low
hanging fruit like have some kind of
program that
yeah evaluates the strength of the
passwords
and then finds the weak ones and that
means that this person is probably the
kind of person that would use the same
password across multiple or even just
write a program and do that remember the
ring hack a couple a year ago that's all
it was is credential stuffing so ring
the security system by default had to
factor but didn't turn it on and they
also had a don't try unlimited tries to
log into my account you can lock it out
after 10. by default not turned on
because it's not convenient for people
you know ring you know it's like I want
people to stick these little things up
and have Security in their house uh but
you know cyber security don't make it
inconvenient then people will not buy
our product
that's how they got hacked they want to
say that it's insecure and got hacked
into reputational harm right there for
ring but they didn't it was just
credential stuffing people bought
username passwords on the black market
and
just wrote a bot that just went through
ring and used every one of them to maybe
one percent hit but that's a big hit
to the number of ring users you know you
can use also password managers to make
to make the changing of the passwords
easier
um
to make you can choose the difficulty
the number of special characters the
length of it and all that
um my favorite things on websites
yell at you for your password being too
long or having too many special care or
like uh or yeah you're not allowed to
have this special character or something
you can only use these three special
characters it's a you know do you
understand how password cracking works
if you specifically tell me which past
which special characters I can use I
want like I honestly just want to have a
one-on-one meeting like late at night
with the engineer that programmed that
because that's that's like an intern I
just want to have a sit down meeting
yeah I made my parents switch Banks once
because the security was so poor I was
like you just you can't have money here
but then there's also like the zero day
attacks like uh we mentioned mentioned
before the uh the qnep nas that got
hacked uh luckily I didn't have anything
private on there
um but it really woke me up to like okay
so like if you take everything extremely
seriously
unfortunately for the end users there's
nothing you do about zero day it's you
know there's this you have no control
over that I mean it's a it's a the
engineers that made the software don't
even know about it now let's talk about
one days
um so there's a patch now out there for
the security so if you're not updating
your systems for these security badges
if it's just not on you
um my father-in-law has such an old
iPhone you can't security patch it
anymore so you know and I tell him I
said you know this is what you're
missing out on this is what you're
exposing yourself to because
um you know we talked about that
powerful tool that uh the the how we
found Ross Albrecht gmail.com well bad
guys are using that too it's called you
know it used to be called Google Dorking
now it's I think it's named kind of
Google hacking by the community
um you can go in you know and find a
vulnerability read about the white paper
what's wrong with that that software and
then you can go on the internet and find
all of the computers that are running
that outdated software and there's your
list there's your target list yeah I
know the vulnerabilities they're running
I again not making a Playbook here but
you know that's how easy it is to to
find your targets and that's what that's
what the the bad guys are doing then the
reverse is tough it's much tougher but
it's still doable which is like the
first find the target like if you have
specific targets
uh to to you know hack into a Twitter
account for example much harder that's
probably social engineering right that's
probably the best way probably if you if
you wanted something specific to that I
mean if you really want to go far you
know
if you're targeting a specific person
you know how hard is it to get into
their office and put a you know a little
device USB device in line with their
Mouse who checks how their Mouse is
plugged in and you can for 40 bucks on
the black market you can buy a key
logger that just USB then the mouse
plugs right into it it looks like an
extension on the mouse if you can even
find it you can buy the the stuff with a
mouse inside of it uh and just plug it
into somebody's computer and there's a
key logger that lives in there and calls
home sends everything you want so I mean
and it's cheap yeah in grad school
um a program to build a bunch of key
loggers it was fascinating tracking
Mouse just for uh what I was doing as
part of the research uh I was doing
to uh uh to see if by the Dynamics of
how you type
and how you move the mouse you can tell
who the person is oh wow that's like
um it's called the active authentication
like it's basically Biometrics that's
not using bio uh just to see how
identifiable that is so it's fascinating
to study that but it's also fascinating
how damn easy it is to install key
loggers so I I think is is in natural
what happens is you realize how many
vulnerabilities there are in this world
you do that when you understand bacteria
and viruses you realize they're
everywhere in the same way with uh I'm
talking about biological ones and then
you realize that all the vulnerabilities
that are out there one of the things
I've noticed quite a lot is
how many people don't log out of their
computers
just how easy physical access the
systems actually is
uh like in a lot of places in this world
and I'm not talking about private homes
I'm talking about companies especially
large companies it seems quite trivial
in certain places that I've been to to
walk in and have physical access to a
system and that's depressing to me it is
it just I laugh because uh one of my my
partners at naxo that I work at now
um he worked at a big company like you
would know the name as soon as I told
you I'm not going to say it um but the
guy who owned the company and the
company has his name on it
um didn't want to ever log into a
computer just annoyed the shit out of
him so they hired a person that stands
next to his computer when he's not there
and that's his physical security
see that's good that's that's pretty
good actually so yeah I mean I guess if
you could afford to do that at least
you're taking your security seriously I
feel like there's a lot of people in
that case would just not have a login
yeah no the security team there had to
really work around to make that work uh
non-compliant with company policy but
that's that's interesting the the key
log is there's there's a lot of there's
just a lot of threats yeah I mean a lot
of ways to get in yeah I mean so you
can't sit around and worry about someone
physically gaining access to your
computer with keylogger and stuff like
that
um you know if you're traveling to a
foreign country and you work for the FBI
then yeah you do you pick little you
know sometimes some countries you would
bring a fake laptop just to see if they
stole it or accessed it I really want
especially in this modern day to just
create a lot of clones of myself that
generate
Lex sounding things and just get put so
much information out there actually
docks myself
all across the world and then you're not
a Target I guess you just put it out
there I've always said that though like
we do these searches in FBI houses and
stuff like that if someone just got like
a box load of like 10 terabyte drives
and just encrypted them oh my God you
know how long the FBI would spin their
wheels trying to get that data off there
be insane also so just give them you
don't even know which one you're looking
for yeah
that's true that's true so it's like uh
me printing like a treasure map to a
random location just get people to go on
Goose goose chases
yeah uh what what about operating system
what what have you found uh what's the
most secure and what's the least secure
operating system Windows Linux
is there no Universal there's no
Universal Security I mean it changed you
people use anything Max for the most
secure just because they just weren't
out there but now kids have had access
to them so you know it is you know I
know you're a Linux guy I I like Linux
too but you know it's tough to have run
a business on on Linux you know people
want to move more towards the microsofts
and the Googles just because they don't
it's easier to communicate with other
people though maybe our computer guys so
you have to just take what what's best
what's easiest and secure the shit out
of it as much as you can and just think
about it what are you doing these days
in Axel so we just started nexos uh so I
left the government and uh went to a
couple consultancies and I started
working uh really all the people I I I
worked good in the government with
um I brought them out with me
um and now you used to work for the man
and now you're the man exactly so but
now we formed a partnership and it's
it's just a it's a new cyber security
firm that we our launch party is
actually on Thursday so it's going to be
exciting do you want to give more
details about the party so that somebody
can hack into it no I don't even tell
you where it is you can come if you want
but don't don't bring the hackers well
that's the center will be there I can't
believe you invited me because you also
say Insider threat is is the is the
biggest threat uh by the way can you
explain what the inside arthritis the
biggest Insider threat in my life is my
children
um my son's big into Minecraft and we'll
download executables mindlessly and just
run them on the network so do you
recommend against marriage and family
and kids nope nope from a security
perspective from a security perspective
absolutely but uh no I just uh
segmentation uh I mean we do it in off
businesses for years
um started segmenting networks different
networks I just do it at home my kid's
on his own network
um it makes it a little bit easier to
see what they're doing too you can
monitor traffic and then also throttle
bandwidth if uh if your Netflix isn't
playing fast enough or buffers or
something so you can obviously change
that a little too you know they're going
to listen to this right uh you're gonna
get your tricks yeah that's true they'll
definitely will listen but there's
nothing more humbling than your family
you think you've done something big and
you go on a big podcast and talk to Les
Freeman they don't they don't care
unless unless you're on Tick Tock or
yeah you you'll show up on a YouTube
feed or something like that and I'll be
like oh yeah this guy's boring yeah my
son does a podcast uh for his school and
um it's still I still can't get him to
telling so so one of the Hector and I
just started a podcast uh talking about
cyber security we we do a podcast called
hacker in the FED it just came out
yesterday so uh the first episode so
yeah we got 13 uh 13 1300 downloads the
first day so pretty we were at the top
of Hacker News which is a big website in
our world so it's called hacker and the
FED hacker in the fed's demo so go
download and listen to hacker and if I I
can't wait to see what because I don't
think I've seen a video of YouTube
together so I can't wait to see what the
the chemistry is like
we're I mean it's not weird that you
guys used to be enemies and now you're
friends so yeah I mean we just did some
a trailer and all that and uh the the
our producer we have a great producer
got him Phineas and he kind of pulls
things out of me and I said I said okay
I got one
my relationship with Hector is you know
we're very close friends now and and
he's like oh I arrested one of my
closest friends yeah which is a very
strange relationship yeah
um you know but but he he says that I
changed his life I mean he was going
down a very dark path and I gave him an
option that one night and he he made the
right choice I mean he's he now does
penetration testing he does a lot of
good work and uh you know he's turned
his life around
do you worry about
cyber war in the 21st century absolutely
yeah if there is a global war it'll
start with cyber you know if it's not
already started
do you feel like there's a
like a boiling like the the drums of War
beating what's happening in Ukraine with
Russia it feels like the United States
is becoming more and more involved in
the conflict in that part of the world
and China is watching very closely is
starting to get involved geopolitically
and probably in terms of cyber
um do you worry about this kind of thing
happening in the next decade or two like
where it really escalates you know
people in the in the 1920s
were completely terrible at predicting
the World War II
do you think we're at the precipice of
War potentially I think we could be I I
mean I I would hate to just be
you know just fear-mongering out there
um you know and kovid's over so the next
big thing in the media is war and all
that but I mean there's some some Flags
going up that are that are very strange
to me is there a ways to avoid this I
hope so I hope smarter people and I are
figuring it out I hope people are
playing their parts and and talking to
the right people
um because that's the war is the last
thing I want well there's two things to
be concerned about on the Cyber side one
is the actual defense
on the technical side of cyber and the
other one is the Panic that might happen
when something like some dramatic event
happened because of cyber some major
hack that becomes public
I'm honestly more concerned about the
panic because
I feel like if people don't think about
the stuff the Panic can hit harder
like if they if they're not conscious
about the fact that we're constantly
under attack I feel like it'll come like
a much harder surprise
yeah I think people will be really
shocked on things I mean so we talked
about low SEC today and low sick was
2011. they had access into a Waters the
water supply system of a major U.S city
they didn't do anything with it they
were sitting on it in case someone got
arrested and they were gonna maybe just
expose that it's there's insecure maybe
they were gonna do something to fuck
with it I don't know but you know that
that's that's 2011. you know I don't
think it's gotten a lot better since
then
and there's probably nation states or
major organizations that are sitting
secretly on Hacks like 100 a hundred
percent they're sitting secretly waiting
to expose things
I mean I again I don't want to scare
this shit out of people but people have
to understand the Cyber threat I mean
there are you know they are there are
thousands of nation-state hackers in
some countries I mean we have them too
we have offensive hackers you know the
the terrorist attacks of 9 11.
there's planes that actually hit actual
buildings and it was visibly clear and
you can trace the information with cyber
attacks say something that would result
in the ex in a major explosion in New
York City
how the hell do you trace that
like
if it's well done it's going to be
extremely difficult the problem is
it there's so many problems one of which
the US government in that case has
complete freedom to blame anybody they
want true
and then to to go start war with anybody
anybody that actually see uh all right
that's sorry that's one cynical take on
it of course no but you're going down
the right path I mean the guys are the
fluid planes in the buildings wanted
attribution they took credit for it when
we see the Cyber attack I doubt we're
gonna see attribution maybe the victim
side the US government on this side
might come out and try to blame somebody
but you know like you've brought up like
they could blame anybody they want
there's no really a good way of
verifying that
can I just ask for your advice so in my
personal case am I being tracked how do
I know
how do I protect myself should I care
you are being tracked
um I wouldn't say you're being tracked
by the government you're definitely
being tracked by big Tech uh no I mean
me personally Lex and an escalated level
so like uh
um
like you mentioned there's an FBI file
on people sure I'd love to see what's in
that file
uh
uh who would have the argument oh let me
ask you FBI yeah
um how's the cafeteria food in FBI at
the Academy it's bad yeah
um what about like at headquarters
headquarters a little bit better because
that's what the director I mean he he
eats up on the seventh floor have you
been like a Google have you been in the
uh Silicon Valley those cafeteria like
those I've been to the Google in Silicon
Valley I've been to the Google in New
York yeah the food is incredible it is
great so if FBI is worse well when
you're going through the academy they
don't let you outside of the building so
you have to eat it
um and I think that's the only reason
people eat it okay
um it's it's pretty bad
I got it okay but there's also a bar
inside the FBI Academy people don't know
that
yes alcohol bar wow and if you as long
as you've passed your PT and uh and and
going well you're allowed to go to the
bar nice it feels like if I was a hacker
I'll be going after like celebrities
because they're a little bit easier like
celebrity celebrities like Hollywood the
Hollywood nudes were a big thing there
for a long time but not even yeah I
guess news that's what they went after I
mean all those guys they socialized they
did they they social engineered Apple to
get backups to get the recoveries for
backups and then they just pulled all
their nudes and I mean whole websites
were dedicated to that yeah see that see
I wouldn't do that kind of stuff it's
very creepy I I would go if I was a
hacker I would go after
um
like
major like powerful people and like
tweet something from their account and
like something that like positive like
loving
but like for the for the walls that
obviously it's a troll god you get
busted so quick by what a bad hacker
really but why because hackers never put
things out about love oh God Oh you mean
like this is clearly yeah this is
clearly Lex what the fuck it's about
love and every podcast he does I'll just
be like no oh God damn it now somebody's
gonna do it and you'll blame me it
wasn't me
looking back at your life is there
something you
I'm only 44 years old I'm already
looking back is there stuff that
um you regret
AV unit yeah he got away so is The One
That Got Away uh yeah I mean it took me
a while into my law enforcement career
to learn about like the compassionate
side and and it took Hector Monster Gear
to make me realize that criminals aren't
really criminals they're human beings
um that really humanized the whole thing
for me sitting with him for for nine
months
um I think that's maybe why I had a lot
more compassion when I arrested Ross
probably wouldn't have been so
compassionate if it was before Hector
but but yeah he changed my life and
showed me that that Humanity side of
things so would it be fair to say that
all all the criminals or most criminals
are
uh just people that took a wrong turn at
some point they all have the capacity
for for good and for evil in them
uh I'd say 99 of the people the
criminals that I've interacted with yes
the the people with the child
exploitation no I don't have any place
in my heart for them
what advice would you give to to people
in college people in high school trying
to figure out what they want to do with
their life how to have a life they can
be proud of how to have a career they
can be proud of
all that kind of stuff in the U.S budget
that was just put forward there's 18
billion dollars for cyber security uh
we're about a million people short of
where we really should be in the
industry if not more
um if you have want job security and
want to work and see exciting stuff uh
head towards cyber security it's a it's
a good career
um and you know one thing I dislike
about like uh cyber security right now
is they expect you to come out of
college and have 10 years experience in
protecting and knowing every different
python script out there and everything
available
um you know the industry needs to change
and let the lower people in in order to
to broaden and get those billion jobs
filled but as far as their personal
security
just remember it's all going to follow
you I mean I I you know there's laws out
there now there you have to turn over
your social media accounts in order to
have certain things
um they just change that in New York
state if you want to carry a gun you
have to turn over your social media to
to figure if you're a good social uh
character
um so hopefully you didn't say something
strange in the last few years and it's
going to follow you forever
um I I bet Ross Albrecht would tell you
the same thing when not don't put Ross
albrecha gmail.com on things because
it's going to last forever yeah people
sometimes uh for some for some reason
they interact on social media as if
they're talking to a couple of buddies
uh like just shooting shit and mocking
and and like um you know what is that
busting each other's chops like making
fun of yourself like being uh especially
gaming culture uh like people who stream
thank God that's not recorded oh my God
the things people say on those streams
yeah but a lot of them are recording
yeah so there's there's a whole twitch
thing where people stream for many hours
a day
and uh
I mean just
outside of the very offensive things
they say
they just swear a lot they're not the
kind of person
that I would want to hire yeah I want to
want to work with now I understand that
some of us might be that way privately I
guess when you're shooting shit with
friends like uh playing a video game and
talking shit to each other maybe yeah
but like that's all out there you have
to be conscious of the fact that that's
all out there and it's just not it's not
a good look it's not like you're you
should it's complicated because I'm like
against hiding Who You Are
but like an asshole you should hide some
of it yeah but like I just feel like
it's going to be misinterpreted when you
talk shit to your friends while you're
playing video games
it doesn't mean you're an asshole
because you're an asshole to your friend
but that's how uh a lot of friends show
love Yeah an outside person can't judge
how I'm friends with you but if I want
to be this is our relationship if that
person can say that I'm an asshole to
them uh then that's fine I'll take it
but you can't tell me I'm an asshole to
them just because you saw my interaction
I agree with that they'll take those
words out of context and now that's
that's considered who you are is
dangerous and people take that very
nonchalant like people treat their
behavior on the internet very very
carelessly that's definitely something
you need to learn and take extremely
seriously also I think like taking that
seriously will help you figure out who
you what you really stand for if you use
your language
carelessly
you never really ask like what do I
stand for I feel like it's a good
opportunity when you're young to ask
like what are the things that are okay
to say
what are the things what are the ideas I
stand behind
like what especially if they're
controversial and I'm willing to say
them because I believe in them versus
just saying random shit for the for the
laws because for the random shift the
laws keep that from off the internet
that said man I was an idiot for most of
my life and I'm constantly learning and
growing it I'd hate to be responsible
for the kind of person
uh I was in my teens oh in my in my 20s
I didn't do anything offensive but it
just I changed as a person like I used
to I guess I probably still do but I
used to you know I used to read so much
existential literature uh that was that
was a phase there's like phases yeah you
grow and involve as a person that
changes you in the future yeah thank God
there wasn't social media when I was in
high school thank God
oh my God I would never be on the FBI
would you recommend that people consider
a career as at a place like the FBI
I loved the FBI I never thought I would
go anyplace else but the FBI I thought I
was going to retire with the the gold
watch and everything from the FBI that
was my plan now but you know what it is
it's a oh it's an example
um you get a gold badge you actually get
your badge in the lucite and your creds
they put in lucite and all that so does
it does it by the way just on a tangent
since we like those
does it hurt you that the FBI
by certain people is distrusted or even
hated 100 it kills me I I like I've
never until recently not I I sometimes
be embarrassed
about the FBI sometimes which is really
really hard for me to say because I love
that place I love the people in it I
love the the Brotherhood that you have
with you know all the guys in your squad
you know guys and girls I just use guys
you know you know we
I I developed a real drinking problem
there because we were so social of going
out after after work and and you know
continuing on it really was a family
um you know so I do miss that
um
but yeah I mean if someone could become
an FBI agent I mean it's pretty fucking
cool man so the day you graduate and
walk out of the academy with a gun and a
badge and you know the the power to
charge someone with a misdemeanor for
flying a United States flag at night
that's awesome
so you so there is a part of like
representing and loving your country and
especially if you're doing cyber
security so there's a lot of technical
Savvy in the uh in different places in
the FBI yeah I mean there's different
pieces sometimes you know you'll see an
older agent that's done you know not
cyber crime come over to cyber crime at
the end so he can get a job once he goes
out uh but there's also some some guys
that come in
um you know I won't name his name but
there was a guy I think he was a hacker
when he was a kid and now he's been an
agent now he's way up in management
um great guy I love this guy and he
knows who he is if he's listening
um you know that that you know he had
some skills but we also lost a bunch of
guys that had some skills because uh we
had one guy in the squad um that he had
to leave the FBI because his wife became
a doctor and she got a residency down in
Houston and and she couldn't move uh he
he wasn't allowed to transfer so he
decided to keep his family versus the
FBI so there's some stringent rules in
the FBI that that need to be relaxed a
little bit yeah I love hackers turned
like leaders like oh one of my quickly
becoming good friends is much
he was a big hack in the 90s and then uh
now was recently
Twitter
Chief security officer CSO but he had a
bunch of different leadership positions
including being my boss at Google but
um but originally a hacker it's cool to
see like hackers become like leaders I
just wonder what would cause him to stop
doing it why he would then take like a
like a managerial route very high-tech
companies I think a lot of those guys so
this is like the 90s they really were
about like the freedom
uh there's like a philosophy to it and
when I think the hacking culture evolved
over the years and I think when it
leaves you behind you start to realize
like oh actually what I want to do is I
want to help the world and I can do that
in legitimate routes and so on but
that's the story that and yeah I would I
would love to uh talk to him one day but
I I wonder how common that is to like
young hackers turn turn good you're
saying it like pulls you in it's if
you're not careful it can really put you
in yeah you know you're good at it you
become powerful you become you know
everyone's slapping on the back and say
what a good job and all that you know at
a very young age yeah so yeah I would
love to get into my buddy's mind on why
he stopped hacking and moved on Ah
that's gonna be a good conversation in
in his case maybe it's always about a
great woman involved
family and so on yeah that grounds you
um
uh because like we have there is a
danger to hacking that that uh once
you're in a relationship once you have
family maybe you're not willing to
partake in
what's your story what uh from childhood
what are some fun memories you have fond
memories where did you grow up
well I don't give away that information
in the United States yeah yeah yeah in
Virginia in Virginia yeah what are some
rough moments what are some beautiful
moments that you remember
I had a very good family growing up
um the the like rough moment and I'll
tell you a story that just happened to
me two days ago and it fucked me up man
it really didn't you'll be the first
I've never told that I tried to tell my
wife this two nights ago and I couldn't
get it out
so my father uh he's a disabled
veteraner he was a disabled veteran he
was in the Army and got hurt and uh it
was in a wheelchair his whole life
um for all my growing up
he uh he was my biggest fan he just
wanted to know everything about you know
what's going on in the FBI my stories
um I was a local cop before the FBI and
I got to a high-speed car chase uh you
know foot chase and all that and kicking
doors and he he wanted to hear another
stories and at some points I was kind of
too cool for school and ah Dad I just
want to break and all that and things
going on uh I we we lost my dad during
covid
um not because of Kobe but it was around
that time but but it was right when
cover was kicking off and so he died in
the hospital by himself and I didn't get
to see him then
um and then uh
my mom had some people visiting her the
other night and uh the Tom and Karen
rogerberg and I'll say they're my second
biggest fans right behind my dad
um they they always asking about me and
in my career and they've read the books
and seen the movie they'll even tell you
that Silk Road movie was good
they'll hide again on that but and so
they came over and uh and I helped them
with something and uh my mom was that
called me back a couple days later and
she said I appreciate you helping them
you know I know you know fixing
someone's Apple phone over the phone
really isn't what you do for a living
it's not it's kind of an easy and all
that and uh but but I appreciate it uh
and she said oh they they loved hearing
the stories about you know Silk Road and
all those things and she goes you know
your dad he loved those stories he just
I just wish he could have heard him like
he even would tell me he would say uh
you know maybe maybe Chris will come
home and uh I'll get him drunk and he'll
tell me the stories
um but and then she goes maybe one day
in heaven you can tell them those
stories and I fuck lost it
I literally stood in my shower sobbing
yeah like like a child like it just
thinking about like all my dad wanted
was those stories yeah
and now I'm on a fucking podcast telling
stories to the world and yeah and I
didn't tell them yeah so did you ever
have like a long heart to heart with him
about like
about such stories he was in the
hospital one time and I went through and
uh I want to know about his history like
his life what he did and I think he may
be sensationalize some of it but that's
what you want your dad's a hero so you
want to hear those things it's a good
Storyteller
um yeah again I don't know what was true
and not true but you know
some of it was really good
um and it was just good to hear his life
but you know we lost him and and now
those stories are gone
you miss him yeah
what did he teach you about what it
means to be a man
so my dad
um
he was an engineer and so part of his
job we worked for Vermont
Power and electric or whatever it was I
mean he when he first got married to my
mom and all that um like he flew around
a helicopter I'll check out like power
lines and dancing he would he used to
swim inside to scuba into dams to check
to make sure like they were functioning
properly and all that pretty cool shit
yeah
and then he couldn't walk anymore
I probably would have killed myself if
my life switched like that so bad and my
dad probably went through some dark
points but he had that from me maybe
um and so to to get through that
struggle to teach me like you know you
you press on you have a family people
count on you you do what you got to do
um that was that was big
yeah
I'm sure you make him proud man I I I'm
sure I do but
I don't think he knew that that I knew
that
well you get to pass on that love to
your kids now I try I try but I I can't
impress them as much as uh my dad
impressed me
I can try all I want but well what do
you think is the role of love
because you uh you you gave me some
grief you busted my balls a little bit
for talking about love a lot what do you
think they're all love in The Human
Condition I think it's the greatest
thing I think everyone should be
searching for and if you don't have it
find it get it as soon as you can
um I love my wife I really do
I had no idea what love was until my
kids were born my son came out and um
this is a funny story he came out and uh
you know I just wanted to be safe and be
healthy and all that and I said to the
doctor I said uh 10 and 10 doc you know
10 fingers ten toes everything good and
he goes ah Nine and Nine
I was like what the fuck I said oh this
is gonna suck though okay we'll deal
with it and all that uh he was talking
about the app in the car cord or some
scoring about breathing and color and
all that and I I was like oh shit but no
one told me this
um but so I'm just sobbing I couldn't
even cut the umbilical cord like it just
fell in love with my kids when I saw
them and and that to me really is what
love is like just for them man and and I
see that through your career that love
developed which is awesome the the the
the the being able to see the humanity
in people
I didn't when I was young the the
foolishness of Youth yeah you know I I
needed to learn that lesson hard I mean
you know when I was young in my career
it was just about career goals and you
know and resting people became stats you
know you arrest someone you get a good
stat you get out of boy you know maybe
you know the boss likes you and you get
a better job or you get you move up the
chain
it took it took a real change in my life
to see that Humanity
and uh I can't wait to listen to this
into your talk was just uh
probably hilarious and insightful
um given the life of the two of you
lived and given how much you've changed
each other's lives
um I can't wait to listen brother and
thank you so much this is a huge honor
to your amazing person with an amazing
wife this is an awesome conversation
you're a huge fan I love the podcast
glad I could be here thanks for the
invite so uh exercise in the brain too
it was great a great conversation and
the heart too right oh yeah yeah you got
you got some tears there at the end
thanks for listening to this
conversation with christabel to support
this podcast please check out our
sponsors in the description and now let
me leave you with some words from
Benjamin Franklin
they can give up essential Liberty to
obtain a little temporary safety deserve
neither Liberty nor safety
thank you for listening and hope to see
you next time