Kind: captions
Language: en
this is not a nice Islamic fatherly
regime
clear signs of fascism
clear sons of
the state's control and pay any price to
stay in power so even violence extreme
violence
the following is a conversation with
Abbas Amana a historian at Yale
University specializing in the modern
history of Iran
my love and my heart goes out to the
Iranian people in their current struggle
for freedom I hope that this
conversation helps folks who listen
understand the nature and the importance
of this struggle
this is the Lex Friedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Abbas Amina
let's start with the current situation
in Iran
on September 16th protests broke out in
Tehran and quickly spread over the death
of a 22 year old maksa amini
eyewitnesses saw her beaten to death by
the morality police this is a heavy
topic but it's a really important topic
what can you explain what happened the
protests are now in their sixth week
the death of that young woman
occurred who was visiting Tehran as a
tourist
parked
something very deep
that's particularly concerned the
younger Generations that is what you
would call the equivalent of the Z
generation in this country yes they call
themselves
in person because Iran follows the solar
calendar of its own as an ancient solar
calendar and this the the time that they
were born they were in the
1380s that's what they call themselves
it is hashtag for the 80s
and uh well the circumstances that
surrounds the uh uh unfortunate death of
this young beautiful
Kurdish woman
is really tragic she was arrested by the
what is referred to as the morality
police
morality Patrol called guidance
police that is
presumably there were two women fully
clad that is officers serving on that
force and two men
and nobody exactly knows what had
happened she had been
beaten up
and apparently there was no uh uh
sign of any wrongdoing on her side she
was fully covered
uh it seems that
there was some altercation in the
process
and the the outcome was that she was
unconscious
not necessarily when she was arrested
but in the course of the detention when
they take them to a center presumably to
re-educate them yeah and she apparently
collapsed and maybe my sense is that she
must have had some kind of a problem
because of the skull being broken or
something has happened and she died in
the hospital the next day
and that's through the social media
was widely spread throughout
Iran and almost the next day
surprisingly you could see this outburst
of sympathy for her
people are in the streets weeping
because she was seen as such an innocent
young woman 22 years old
and the family the mother and the father
also mourning for her
and being a Kurt visiting Tehran
this all added up to really turn her
into some kind of a martyr of these
cause
and that's what it is and her
picture
graphics that were artistically produced
based on her portrait has now dominates
basically as the symbol of this protest
movement and the protest movement goes
on everybody was thinking or at least
the authorities were thinking that is
going to die out in a matter of a few
days but it became more intense
first in the streets of Tehran by young
women mostly probably between I would
say 17 18 teenagers to 20 to 23 or
thereabouts and then to University
campuses all around the country and then
even to high schools and that also made
it a very remarkable protest movement
because first of all it involves the
youth
and not necessarily the older
Generations you see them around but not
as many
also you see men and women together
young
girls and boys
and um
they are adamant they are desperate in
the sense of the tone of their protest
and they are extremely courageous
because they stand against the security
forces that were immediately
were sent off to the streets so and in
full gear that is so what are the the
currents of pain emotion
um what is this turmoil that Rose to the
surface that resulted in these big
protests what are the different feelings
ideas that came to the surface here that
resulted in such quick scaling of this
protest well if you listen to the uh
main slogan which is the message of this
movement
it's called women
life Freedom Zan zendeji Azadi which is
a translation of actually
the Kurdish equivalent which is close to
Persian being in the European language
and it's apparently initiated uh first
in this Syrian Kurdistan
where they were fighting against the the
Islamic daesh forces uh because they
were attacking the
yazidis there and the women being
enslaved but the message as it moved
historians are interested in this kind
of Trends so it's just moved to
Kurdistan and from Kurdistan now being
the message of this movement reflects
pretty much
sums up what this movement is all about
women
in the Forefront
because of all the one might say
discriminations the treatment the
humiliation that this younger generation
feels well not only the younger
Generations but most of the Iranian
secular middle classes since 1979
basically
for the for the past 43 years and uh
they would think that
these all basically symbolized or
uh
represented by the varying the mandatory
varying of the hijab which is at the
core of this protest you see the young
women if you look at many of these clips
that comes through in the past six weeks
women in streets take off their
mandatory scarves which is a young child
or some kind of a head covering that's
all and they throw it into the uh
bonfire in the middle of the street and
they dance around it and slogans
so there is a sense of complete
rejection
of what this regime for 42 years 43
years have been imposing on women it's
as it's sometimes been portrayed a
movement
against hijab through and through but
it's basically says you know there has
to be a choice for those who want to
wear hijab and those who want to remain
without a job yeah the hijab is a symbol
of something much deeper much deeper and
actually before we get into that it's
interesting to note that in many of
these demonstrations we see in the
University campuses or in the streets
you see women with hijab
uh young women with hijab are next to
those have to remove their hijab and
they are together basically protesting
that's the most interesting feature of
this uh of these demonstrations and then
men and women together against the
segregation that the regime has imposed
upon them with all these years now in
terms of what it represents
as I pointed out one is the question of
the whole series of one might say civil
and legal
uh discriminations against women
you are considered as a kind of a second
class citizen
you depend on your men there's a kind of
a
patriarchy that has been
institutionalized in the Islamic
Republic in a very profound fashion
and that means that uh probably
in matters of divorce uh marriage and
divorce in matters of custody of your
children a matter of inheritance in
matter of freedom of movement you depend
on your husband your father your brother
a male member of your family your child
even your your son could could be the
case and because of that obviously a
younger generation who is so well
informed through social media knows
about the world as much as an American
does American kid that's probably
sometimes more they're very very curious
it's from what I hear or sometimes that
I met a few of them outside Iran you'll
see that Hadith this a new generation is
completely different from what the
Islamic Republic wanted to create in its
social engineering it's basically the
failure of 43 years of the Islamic
Republic's acts of imposition of a
certain as so-called Islamic values on
on women then it's a matter of Education
you would see that there is segregation
in the schools
one of the issues that now right now is
at the heart of this demonstrations is
that self-services in many of the
campuses of Iranian universities are
segregated male and female to different
rooms to different Halls now they are
breaking through the walls virtually
everywhere and sit together
in order to basically
resist the authorities wants to impose
segregation in matters of
appearance in the public of course it
may seem to us as a kind of trivial and
secondary but appearance is important
clothing is important how you would
imagine yourself is important they don't
want to be seen in the way that the
authorities would like to impose upon
them as this kind of an idea of a chaste
Islamic woman who is fully covered and
is fully protected the idea of a male
member of the family protects the female
that is what you see at the heart of
this uh rebellion and of course that
goes with everything as the second part
of this message the idea of life
basically means if you like to use the
American equivalent of this pursuit of
the happiness that's what they want they
want fun they want music they want
dancing they want to be free in the
street they want to have girl boyfriends
and live freely and don't be constantly
looked by the big brother to tell them
what to do
and not to do or or not to do so that is
you that they share with virtually with
the entire
with the entire Iranian society as of
all although the older Generations
that's a big puzzle but you would see
that the older generation don't so far
at least don't take part
as extensively as one might imagine and
this is a variety of reasons perhaps you
can get to that later on if you like but
as far as this younger generation they
don't care they don't listen even as
much to their parents as the older
Generations did so all the or one might
say even the nature of the relationship
between the parents and the youth has
changed it's not the concept of again a
major a patriarchy that a father or even
a mother
would tell the daughter or son what to
do because basically they have to
negotiate it's fundamentally a rejection
of the power of authority parents
government yeah it's that every person
can decide their own fate and there's no
uh lessening of value of the wisdom of
old age and old institutions precisely
that's what it is yeah and
they are surprisingly aware
that where they are as a generation so
it's a sense of a pride as we are
different from the older generation from
your parents to compromised and lived
with the restrictions that the Islamic
regime put on you your grandfather your
their grandparents with the generation
that actually involved in the revolution
of 79
the parents which were the middle
generation
and these are the third generation of
the the revolution of 1979 and therefore
they differentiate themselves in terms
of their identity from the older
generation
so that's the life part of it everyone
can go more and more they want to access
and they see on social media what
happens in the rest of the world they're
well aware there are much better
digitally
skilled than my generation for instance
uh and and they know about all the
personalities they know about all the
celebrities they know about all the
trends that goes at outside Iran so
that's a second part of this message and
then of course the third part is the
word Azadi meaning Freedom or Liberty
which is this long
standing demand of the
Iranians I would say for the whole
Century ever since the Constitutional
revolution of 1906 Iran has witnessed
this problem
of uh authorities that usually emerged
at the end of a revolution
to basically impose its own image on the
population and the youth and create
authoritarian regimes of which over the
course of time
I would say that the Islamic Republic is
divorced in the sense that it's
uh its intrusion is not only in the
political sense in the for instance
Banning the freedom of speech you know
meddling with the
elections uh Banning political parties
all kinds of that things which are the
political or civil freedoms but it's
intrusion into the personal life of the
individual
which is the worst kind in a sense as
you would see that there is always that
Authority that basically uh dominates
your life or monitors their life so I I
and they do it in a kind of a very
consistent fashion which makes this idea
of Freedom so important as as part of
the message of this new movement
um you would see that in today's Iran
there are no independent political
parties
there is very little
uh probably freedom of the press I
wouldn't say that it's entirely gone but
it's fairly
limited there is enormous amount of
propaganda machine which dominates the
entire uh uh radio and TV system in Iran
it's completely in the hands of the
government
and of course you would see this variety
of other tools
for trying to indoctrinate
uh
Iranian population across the board so
that's another sign of this kind of a
sense of uh sense of being a totally
left out you're not belonging to to
what's going on in terms of power
empowerment and disempowerment so that's
that's the situation as far as the idea
of a freedom if it's concept and there's
three somewhat miraculously and perhaps
unintentionally
and the three parts of this message uh
complements each other because perhaps
for the first time we see that women are
in the Forefront of a of a movement I
hesitate to say Revolution because I'm
not particularly happy with the
religious
revolutions worldwide and in Iran have
always been so miserable in terms of
their outcome that we have to be careful
not to use the word yes the revolution
yeah so that's where where it stands now
and the regime was thinking that well
these are kids
uh they're going to go away and they're
of course they're completely
conspiratorial in their thinking
they constantly think that these are all
the uh instigations and provocations of
foreign powers these are the great Satan
the United States this is Israel or
these are the it's actually the Supreme
leaders that in so many wars his only
response so far that he had in the first
past six weeks with regard to this
demonstrations is that these are the
children of the savac being the security
forces of the shortest time that's 43
years later
he claims that the children
7 16 17 years 20 years old
kids in the street are the grandchildren
or children of some imaginary
survival of the short security so
there's uh the idea is that these
protests are internal
and external
salvatures so people trying to sabotage
the government yes and and they are
misled as far as they can go and then
there's the great state in the United
States and other places are uh
controlling
sort of uh either controlling the
narrative feeding propaganda or
literally uh sending people I noticed
that they have I don't think even they
have that kind of imagination
precise to say what you have said yeah
that they would say that they're
controlling the narrative they basically
say no these are agents yeah of of the
foreign powers and their families are
all sold out and they are basically lost
their loyalties to the great Islamic
Republic and therefore they can be
treated so brutally they can be
suppressed or brutally which I haven't
actually said what they are doing
because I thought perhaps first we
should talk about who these kids are in
the streets before we move on in the
about the response of the government but
one major factor which seems to add to
the anxiety
of well the regime is extremely anxious
now because they are in a position and
it shows that they don't have the lack
of confidence in a sense that they would
see them reacting in a very forceful way
because basically they don't seem to
have that kind of a confidence to allow
this uh this message or the movement to
air to be aired but the one element
which corresponds to that is that there
is a
expatriate population of Iranians
worldwide
they are probably now according to some
estimates close to 4 million even more
Iranians abroad and they're all over the
world from Australia and New Zealand
Japan
Western Europe
uh turkey and United States and Canada
so just to give you one example last
last Saturday
there was a mass demonstrations in
Berlin by the Iranians from Germany and
all over Europe Western Europe
and it was at least I think probably the
conservative estimate was about hundred
thousand
so hundred thousand Iranians showed up
in Berlin demonstrating against the
treatment of the uh women in Iran were
the movement in Iran
the government
thinks obviously this must have been
some
instigation by foreign powers and they
want to destroy Islamic Republic
and not only that but the propaganda is
kind of ridiculous because I listened
actually to how they portrayed it in the
newspapers I listened to the Iranian
news that is officially controlled
government control news
and and in the papers there's much of
the papers that are in the control of
the government
a one of them were actually the the
major news program portrayed the
demonstrations that 10 000 people
showed up in Berlin and protested
against the rising prices rising rates
for gas and oil in Germany so that's how
they mislead in a very rather just
stupid fashion because
probably 95 percent if not 100 percent
of the Iranians are listening to Passion
speaking media outside Iran so it's a
BBC
person there is Iran International there
are at least five or six of them that's
probably really important to highlight
that
Iran is a very modern and tech savvy
Nation
not just the young people probably more
than more than I feel sometimes when I
compare myself to what they are doing
yeah since 1979 the earlier years for a
decade or two
they tried in a very crude fashion to
restrict and access to Media outside
Iran and because this is all through
dishes okay and satellite dishes are
everywhere you know if you look at the
uh you know
buildings of either a small house small
towns and villages in Iran there's
always a a dish and they watch all kinds
of things through this and particularly
because of what's Happening Now they
listen to all the news
um uh broadcasts from all this media and
they're extremely active
they are
um probably some of them even 24 hours
or close very extensive coverage of
every clip that comes through
so what the government is doing now the
Islamic Republic is that they restrict
the entire internet the shutdown they
shot at the internet but they cannot
afford shutting the internet because
much of the business much of the
everyday life much of the government
Affairs depends on the internet like
everywhere else and Iran is extremely if
you if I hear from many of the
colleagues and friends you know it's
like in certain respects it's like
Sweden where you go there there's no
more currency and for a very good reason
because there's so much inflation that
that the banknotes are worthless in a
sense so everything is true you know uh
sweeping your card and that's the entire
system is in a standstill because people
cannot buy food they can you you go to
the supermarket that's how you would do
it you you order food to come to your
house which Iranians at least the middle
classes the more prosperously that
Christ is doing all the time so they
deliver everything and because of the
covet it became even more and they have
to pay all through this system
um so what happens is that now they're
estimating that every day 50 million
dollars the Iranian government or the
Iranian economy is losing because of
slowing the internet plus the
frustration is growing of course because
you can't order food
right I mean they are they are in touch
with I mean WhatsApp yeah every Iranian
virtually every Iran yeah yeah that has
the education and education in the sense
that has gone through
the the high schools and universities
knows how to use the WhatsApp so there's
a big middle class like you said secular
class in Iran and there there's a lot of
at least capacity for if not Revolution
then
um
political ideological
uh
turmoil and a huge amount of hatred
so the hatred is grown yes hatred of the
of the policies
of the regime of isolation that's a huge
point that you hear a great deal about
that we don't want to be isolated we
don't want to be humiliated Iran is not
about
this this miserable regime that is
ruling over us
we have a great culture so there's this
sense of a pride in their own culture
some of it's uh you know Islamic some of
it pre-islamic so they there is a huge
um a sense of a pride in that and they
see that they cannot communicate with
the outside world they they want to
travel abroad which they do I mean for
one thing the Iranian regime never
actually
for majority of the population never put
restrictions it's not like Soviet Union
where you have to have a you used to
have a permission to move from one place
to another and then of course the the
Islamic regime since 1979 basically I
chased away or destroyed the old middle
class that's my generation basically my
parents here they say these are the
secular middle class of the parliamiera
in the hope that they can do this social
engineering and create this Islamic
uh uh Society of Their Own the bad news
for them was that that didn't happen and
that memory
persisted and the middle class that was
created since past 40 years
is much larger in size
than what it was because there was of
course the demographic Revolution that's
the way
there's a very Foundation of it it's the
demographic Revolution
population in Iran I've written an
article about it actually
a population in Iran since uh the turn
of the century last century the 20th
century population of Iran was about 9
million or so
it's now 83 million
and that is since 1979 the population
was 35 million between the past 40 years
it's basically doubled so it's 83
million although
one of the great successes I don't want
to bore you with the details about the
Democracy but it's important
demographics is not important you will
you can see that the best rate was very
high otherwise you wouldn't have double
your population in matter of four
decades yeah but Iranians because of the
urban
shift to an urban population because of
the growth of the middle class because
of the education
they basically the pattern of the uh of
growth population growth changed Iran
used to be
2.8 or 3 percent birth rate in around
1980s I would say 1970s 1980s now
it is 1.1
and it's what probably the most
successful country in the Middle East in
terms of the population control despite
the government
a consistent uh attempt to try to
encourage people to have more kids
middle class refuses to do that and this
is the middle class not only anymore in
the capital
but this is very smaller towns and
cities places that used to be villages
now you look at them they have a decent
population 50 000 100
000 and they live in urban life and they
don't want to be
subjected to that old pattern of
agrarian society when you had 10
children or eight children and of course
it's a much more advanced in terms of uh
in terms of health and medicine so you
don't at least lose children as they
used to the antibiotics there's always
of
kids to survive and therefore if you
have 10 kids you're sick with 10 kids
you don't end up with four as it used to
be in the past
six of them would have died in the in
the after the age of five actually but
now because of that you see that this
Urban population in the cities have
completely different demands
and of course the education is important
that's another area of how the social
engineering of the Islamic Republic went
away because they were thinking that you
know the growth of the population the
growth of the educated higher educated
middle classes in their benefit or they
could not even control it in a sense now
Iran in my time uh probably had
in the
1970s probably by the type of the
Revolution about 10 12 universities
now it has 56 universities all across
the country
and there is a something referred to as
the Free University or that
which has campuses all over the country
it has 324 campuses all around Iran
what does that mean
in many respects this youth
that are brought up in these families
even in a small towns in very
traditional families and families that
belong to that kind of a more religious
the loyal to the clergy or to the
clerical classes
their children
can now move on which particularly women
because in in my times it would have
been unheard of that you would have a
young woman of 18 or 17 18 19
from a traditional City such as for
instance Yaz or in in in
statistan Iran
to move on elsewhere for Education as
you do in this country okay now it's
completely accepted
that a woman
wears their job because he's forced to
wear a job
to go to a university completely on the
other side of the country
and this movement of the population
not only because of the universities but
in general
if you now visit Iran
you hear accents local accents
provincial accents all over the country
that is a azerbaijani Turkish accent
from the north
west of the country you can hear it in
the forest province in the South and
vice versa
so
and Kurdish for instance or even more
marginal regions such as system province
in the southeast of Iran which has been
the subject of this recent Massacre when
they actually attacked the population
when demonstrating and killed a fair
number at least 60 people
so this movement of the population
this creation of a larger middle class
the better educated middle class much
better educated Iran has 86 percent uh
uh literacy
which I think probably I haven't checked
that but probably is better than turkey
even
is probably better than anywhere else in
the Middle East and it sounds like
there's a that's quickly increasing so
because because of the movement because
of the growth that the education system
that's precisely Iran has one million
School teachers
which may not seem as much if you are in
the United States but it's a fairly big
number actually can you Linger on the
massacre what happened there well the
system province is the baluch uh
ethnicity of paluchi ethnicity baluchi
is a
particular ethnic group in southern Iran
which is certainly rather than she
majority and we should say that most of
Iran is she another that's a branch of
Islam yes let's maybe just briefly
linger sheasm and and Sunni what just
let's not get into it let's do a one
sentence summary uh and that maybe which
which is what most of Iran is majority
of the population of the Muslim world
are sunnis
that is a mainstream if you like to call
that actually means that kind of a
Ministry
can you actually Linger on the the Sunni
Suna
she she uh she means a party means those
that belongs to a party of Ali which was
goes back to the early Islamic history
of 7th Century I mean I'm almost
lingering to the silly notion of
pronunciation and stuff like that so ah
yeah means part like what what is the
extra eye at the end yeah she e means
belonging to this community yeah Shia
means a person
yes yeah and she is the community
community and in English when it was
anglicized it becomes Shiite so if you
say Shiite in today it's perfectly
acceptable and of course I myself in my
writings I always
switch between one and the other one of
my books is always Shiite the other book
is always she and that hasn't been
settled but the she population is the
smaller compared to the Sunni population
in the world in the world in the world
but in Iran is the opposite the Iran and
Iraq and possibly not Lebanon are the
three countries who barely Iraq and
Lebanon have barely majority population
whereas Iran is a large population due
to its history of conversion to shizen
that by itself is another story but
in the sense that the the way that
historically it evolved the center
became more she
and the peripheries remained certainly
so you have communities of the baluch in
the south east
we have the Kurds a large portion of the
Kurds our sunnies
they have cheese as well then they have
the indigenous religion of their own
ideal uh what's called which is the
religion of indigenous to Kurdistan
there are two commands in the north east
of Iran who are also Chinese the other
communities the horizontal region in the
in the peripherals of Afghanistan they
are also Chinese and you have some Arab
population Arab speaking population in
the rosestan province in the southwest
of Iran which is also or across the
Persian Gulf is there a lot of conflict
between these regions and also like if I
uh blindfolded you and dropped you off
in one of the regions would you quickly
recognize the region like by the food by
the music by the accents by so on yeah
the answer to your lovely question which
I think I hope it would have happened to
me is that yes you would see different
cultures yes yeah but different food
most important different accents yeah or
different languages since they have
dialects is a different language
altogether
but
or so for that matter Kurdish which is
closer to Persian because they are
Indo-European languages
but Turkish azeri Turkish which is
probably closer to the Turkish of techie
Republic of Turkey or to the Republic of
Azerbaijan in the North
they're the same basically actually if
you would have looked as a fascinating
picture if you have looked at the let's
say even 19th century early 20th century
linguistic map of Iran would have been
amazed
in the number of dialects in the number
of languages that has survived and this
is an ancient country it's an ancient
land
and it's a lot of mountains all around
it or big deserts so there's a sense of
isolation so you would say here and
there you see a different community that
speaks differently all ancient
traditions and languages yeah and
because of the great number of invasions
that Iran witnessed over
more than two and a half millennia
of course there are all kinds of
cultures were introduced into Iran
they're all ethnicities were introduced
to Iran mostly coming from the north
east of Iran from
from the uh lowlands of Central Asia and
Beyond and and continued into Iran
proper so but now what has happened
that's what my point that divided to
make uh the century of modernity or
modernization
has produced
a national culture of great great
strength in a sense I would say I should
ended my book
um the the book on Iran Iran a mother in
history uh basically saying that despite
everything else that has created so much
trouble for today's Iraq there is a
sense of a cultural
uh identity that is very strong
and I think
I can say uh with with some confidence
that despite this
despite this regional identities that
are still there and they're great and
they should be celebrated
uh this today if you go to uh to
Kurdistan or if you go to
sistan they all can speak Persian they
all have an education in person so they
all basically are becoming part of
whether they like it whether they like
the regime in power or not they have a
sense of belonging to a culture and an
identity with the center and of course
the idea of a center versus periphery in
Iran is very old it goes back to ancient
times because even the name of the
country was the guarded domains of Iran
this is the this is the official name
namely that it was recognized that this
is not just one uh entity but it's the
is the collection of entities like the
United States of America exactly exactly
but the United States of America in a
sense you can say that it was a very
successful well it remains to be seen
how successful to be continued to be to
that that was basically invented created
that you would have this sense of it in
in the case of an old nature which has
been on the map of the world for three
thousand years 2500 years there's this
is not an exaggeration I'm not a
nationalist per se but I mean if you
look Persia on the map of the word in
ancient times is still there as it is
today very few countries in the world
are like that
that they would have that kind of a
continuity over a course of time and
that's not without a reason because
there was this sense of it a center
versus periphery that had found some is
it there's a huge amount of tension but
there is also a sense of belonging to
something and state is very much at the
center of it I mean
that's why the concept of a state
matters for the creation for the shaping
of of this culture what happened is
therefore you can see that today in
answer to your point about traveling
blindfolded
is that
you would be surprised to see how much
uh people share
and in terms of I just give you one
anecdote
in
1968 I believe must have been
I traveled to Azerbaijan I I used to
travel and actually photograph not
blindfolded
mostly well yeah
so I went to a Bazaar in the city of hoi
which is in the North Western Iran uh on
the border with what is today the
Republic of Turkey
and I went to the bazaar and I was
interested in the kind of a leather work
that they produce
so I tried to buy some stuff and they
were surprised to see that how few
people knew Persia
so they could not communicate in person
with you either they have to ask
somebody from some other store to come
and translate for you
this is 1968 96 so even though it's the
official language was special of the
country they're still yeah so what are
they teach in school so it doesn't
matter it was special but this guy just
doesn't go to school he hasn't been to
the school or it was not fully exposed
to it and of course usually are very
conservative places so it's stuck in my
mind now in recently in 2004 I was
traveling to the same area not to the
same city but to the same area
and I was amazed to see how the youth
as soon as they would know that you were
coming from somewhere else
opening conversation with you talking
about the latest movies that was
produced in the west and it's not only
Hollywood of course there's a huge
amount of fascination with Hollywood and
Western cinema cinema is a major thing
filmmaking is a major thing yeah so
these kids in the city of Ahad were
asking me we're having lunch they're
asking me okay then what do you think
about this producer not producer this
director or that actor American American
European as well but mostly America
where they speak in Persian it's a
complete person that I would converse
with them if they speak English too
interesting Yes actually you would be
surprised to see what percentage of the
Iranian youth at least in big cities are
fascinated with learning language and
for a reason because they think that's
the way to get access either on social
media or eventually leave it on yeah
unfortunately and and because they don't
see a future for themselves in the
country either you have to be part of
this
part of this regime
or if you hate them and you don't like
the way of their life you look up
outside you know I was having drivers to
drive me around the country in the
cities around Iran and the guy was a
young extremely well educated
well-dressed and we would have looked at
him we could have found him in any
Street in any country in the western
world and his major concern knowing that
I'm from outside major concern is well
tell me which would be a better place
for me to go so what's wrong with the
place that you're in right now you are
in your own country you speak your own
like oh this is no good
I have to have a better future this
year's no future for me well it's really
interesting because the thing I feel
about the protest right now
is uh there's a large number of people
that instead of giving in to cynicism
about you know this government is no
good yeah they're actually getting this
like uh energy this desire to for
revolution
uh in in the sort of non-violent sort of
in the in the Democratic sense of that
let's let's actually find the ideas
let's let's build a great nation here
this is a great nation this is my nation
let's build something great here well
that's my hope that's well yeah yeah
that's what I'm hoping for it I share
your uh aspiration but I'm fearing that
I hope it's not a wishful thinking
it's certainly that's what they want
certainly that's what they want to
create but the history and always tells
you from where they start to be where
they finish
there is going to be a huge kind of a
change and in this particular case
I wouldn't be I I would very much hope
that it's not going to be a revolution
like 1979 Islamic revolution
and I have my hopes in that for one
thing this is a revolution that doesn't
have a leader
okay
and it seems that they're comfortable
with that
at least so far because we were the
sixth week of this movement and I hope
it's not going to be actually a
revolution as I pointed out before I
hope it's going to be more of a
sense of trying to come
to some compromise
and gradually move toward change rather
than a collapse of this
regime and replacement with what so the
anxiety of the regime you hope will turn
into a kind of uh realization that you
have to you have to modernize you have
to make progress you actually have to
make certain compromises yes or
constitutional changes all those kind of
stuff so the basic process of government
and law making
problem is
that they say we have it all you know we
have our Parliament we have our
constitution we have our elections which
has all been of course
fake but they claim they have all of
that
but the problem for them is that
they
try to superimpose
is an ideology
like all other ideological uh
autocracies or other cases in this case
that tend to dominate
uh all this institution buildings that
they have and they they constantly claim
we have this we have that that is of
course there's a generational thing
the upper echelons of this regime
are mostly older people interpret they
are the clergy
that are afraid of the fact that they
may lose their control over their whole
system that is a sophisticated huge
system of government
and
they rely on certain tools of control
which is the Revolutionary guards
and other
other
institutions that are loyal to to the
state and they spend enormous amount of
funds that is available to them at least
before the sanctions but even during the
sanctions they still have enough funds
to do so
and in order to remain in power and they
are extremely ruthless in that regard
this is not a nice Islamic fatherly
regime this is a regime that I would see
easily in it
clear signs of fascism
clear sense of
the state's control and pay any price to
stay in power so even violence extreme
violence to return to the massacre what
what were the uses of violence to
suppress protests well yes it was
actually quite remarkable to see that
from the first or the second day of the
protest you see out in this street this
Riot police okay
which comes out in large numbers
fully geared up
their appearance are rather terrifying
like any other Riot but it's probably
more than any other right police
they're violent
and they stand in the streets when these
students are demonstrating even in
smaller number because before I go to
that I should point this point these are
to you as well that that these
demonstrations are not
large ones in one place you see you
don't see a hundred thousand people in
in one place
but you see in every neighborhood couple
of thousands of kids are
demonstrating all the way around all
over now all over the world in different
parts yes yes yes actually during the
demonstrations three weeks ago they as I
said they had people in
Sydney Australia New Zealand Tokyo all
over the world all protesting high gas
prices it's funny
everywhere everywhere
to the extent that they could be ignored
yeah nothing but if they could not be
ignored and it's actually quite
remarkable that this is very
embarrassing to them but somehow they
think that this propaganda machine of
them is working I say you think they
don't have a good even sense I mean it's
so there's an incompetence within the
propaganda machine yes it is there's an
incompetence across the board yeah I
mean despite all of this massive
government
Administration or whatever you would
call it all these various components of
it there is a sense of the existence of
inefficiency and incompetence that is
associated with in every action that you
see even in their suppression of this
street movement but in answer to that
question you would see that there this
uh Riot police
uh very it's quite obvious that they
were trained for the purpose so this
their appearance to everything these are
not just regular army forces or soldiers
as conscripts they are professional
forces and they come not only in on foot
number but they come on motorbikes so
there are you would see any of these
demonstrations there are 10 12 15 20
motorbikes
with two passengers one in front riding
the one in the back
fully equipped with the Baton with paint
guns with pellet guns and with bullets
so they have very fully uh equipped and
they are terrifying they go through the
demonstrations that hits and beat people
and then the areas
and then you sit behind the first line
of these right police you would see all
this latest
models of this
special uh armored trucks
for
moving to the demonstrations and
arresting people throwing them into this
and then behind that water water cannons
you see and I was looking at that to say
okay this is Tehran probably they have
this but then you look at the smallest
cities they still have the same thing
so all over the country one thing that
they had managed to produce extensively
irrespective of the fact that whether
they are effective or not but you see
them everywhere so it just shows that
how afraid this regime is but that also
shows that there's an infrastructure
that can Implement violence at scale yes
very much so and it's probably part and
parcel of this regime from day one
the number of Prisons that they have
according to
perhaps an exaggerated version
they said that about 12
000 or so
arrested that's what in jails today
since past six weeks
they were 230 or 40 people were killed
including children I under
18. they are
they beat up
women in the street which is extremely
actually uh disturbing when you see
these scenes of so there's a lot of this
is on video too right everything is on
video everybody has a camera
and everybody sends to Major news
outlets outside Iran and they
immediately showed every night if you
look at BBC Persia or Iran International
reviewer for I think the six of them
actually
all over this in England they are in
Deutsche Valley in Germany
uh which has a particular interest in
the Iranian BBC World Service and so
forth in London
and Voice of America Persian here in
this country there is another one radio
fader which is also funded by the
American government
also fully covers all of these events so
there is no way that these people can
that Iraq can miss what's going on in
the streets of these demonstrations and
the scenes of beating up women
which in Iranian culture as I presume in
most cultures in the world there is a
certain sanctity that you don't attack
women
but they do and this is an Islamic
regime that supposedly have to have a
certain sense of concern and uh
protection
like a like a deep respect for women
grounded in a tradition of protecting
them but instead this kind of idea that
was instilled in law has turned into a
deep disrespect of women exactly or fear
that these women are not any longer the
girls that we thought we are bringing up
in this Society the source of you losing
your power will be these these women
that's the fear yeah and you see of
course this government do have a support
base I mean it would be uh totally wrong
to think that the Islamic Republic has
not created its own power base it does
uh but it's probably if there's no way
there are no statistics that we can or
I'm not aware of any statistics that I
can give you in numbers what's the
percentage of support for the regime in
Iran but quite frankly I don't think
it's more than probably 10 of the
population very generous I I would be
surprised if it's that low I would say
so if my understanding because I've been
very deeply paying attention to the war
in Ukraine in to uh Ukraine to Russia
and uh to support in Russia for Putin
yes I think without knowing the details
without even considering the effects of
propaganda and stuff like that is
there's probably a large number of
people in Iran that
don't see this as a battle of Human
Rights but see it as a battle of
uh conservatism like tradition versus
modernization and they value tradition
that that what they fear from the
throwing away of the hijab
is not the loss of power and like the
women getting human rights what they
fear is is the same stuff you fear when
you're sitting on a porch and saying
kids these days have no respect
basically that they there's a large
number of Iranians that probably value
tradition
and uh the beauty of the culture and
like there they fear that kids with
their internet and their videos and
their Revolution will throw away
everything that made this country uh
hold together for Millennia right
so yes I know I would agree with you in
the sense that probably like everywhere
else in the world this is the
generational thing you know every
generation thinks differently about the
younger generation No Doubt and in Iran
is the same but the there is another
Factor here is involved those that we
would consider them as traditional
no longer seem to have their loyalties
to this regime that's powerful meaning
that the this the
they consider as a brutal regime
that is prepared to kill children in the
streets
and it does a lot of things wrong of
course it tries to take care of the its
own power base
it is a very strong sense of if we start
here there's a very strong sense in this
regime that there are people that is
theirs and their others which are not
theirs there's a word for it even
impression they call it one of us
okay uh so well it's very that's very
fascistic it's like yes yes it's all for
that matter I I suppose Soviet Union you
would have if you were a member of the
party and like you know your children
would have received a special kind of
treatment yourself as well
um
this sense of us versus them
uh for a while worked
because the younger people coming from
the countryside to the cities
certain fact certain sector of them
would have found
uh with a fund protection and support
from the government they they wanted to
belong to something and the masks and
the mornings uh uh morning associations
in the neighborhoods and so forth would
have given them there is actually a term
for it it's called basigi those those
have been recruited by this state and
this is the youth
kind of
vigilante if you like that that you can
see them also in these demonstrations
sometimes thogs they're called the Civil
cloth so the people that that comes to
these demonstrations that start beating
up
these young people
and they they are not in uh in a
security police
uh uniforms but they are just regular
clothes and these people
yes they still support and they still
benefit because they get jobs
they get their privileges
and these are very important for a for a
for a state
that's basically monopolize this most of
the resources you see even be even
during this action let alone before this
action
the oil revenue of Iran which is the
major source of the state government was
the Monopoly of the state it was
Monopoly of State during the parallel
from the start basically
so what does that mean that mean that
the regime in power is not no longer is
particularly accountable to the majority
population because it extracts wealth
from underground
and it uses it for its own purposes in
order to make it more powerful in order
to make it more repressive that's what
it is the regime today so it feeds a
small or I wouldn't say but a fair
number of its own supporters
I mean the Revolutionary regards in Iran
is probably about 350
000 or something like that it's a very
big Force
and this is not a regular army the
Revolutionary guards are independent
from the from the Revolutionary guard
his Armed Forces controlled by the state
yes the same as the Army but these are
more ideologically
tied up with this state and they're also
in facing internal facing what's their
purpose what's their stated what's the
stated purpose of the Revolution they've
won when the revolution succeeded the
regime in part the Islamic regime in
power was vulnerable to all kinds of
forces of opposition within Iran itself
yeah that's the Revolutionary guards and
the job was to try to make sure that the
regime stays in power and of course over
the force of over the course of 40 years
they became more powerful more organized
better funded better trained
well at least we think they're better
trained but we don't know because the
level of incompetence perhaps can be
seen through the rank and file as well
but you know they developed their own uh
Indus military industry I mean those uh
uh drones that you see now
Putin's regime are throwing on
ukrainians for ukrainians those are all
built by the Revolutionary guards by the
military industry under the control not
the Revolutionary guys and like similar
regimes in the Middle East at least
these are military industrial complexes
you can find them in Egypt of course
which is very powerful very
traditionally has been empowered and
still is in power
you find them in Pakistan which is it is
extremely powerful
and they can
change the prime minister's
as they did in the case of the last one
you can find them uh probably in Myanmar
is the same phenomenon uh and I can if
you look around you can find quite a
number of them and the Revolutionary
regards is the equivalent of that this
this is a powerful
um uh establishment Force which
militarily is powerful industrially is
powerful and
since the start of the Revolution they
have been given projects so you want to
build dams which they did a major
disaster environmental disaster
they built 100 and something dams all
across the country this is the
Revolutionary regard to Desert
so they have all kinds of uh tentacles
all around the country controlling
various things and because it's their
job and they have power their prestige
there's a huge incentive to join them
and to join them and to stay so like
they you know when they're having dinner
at home with their families
there's not an incentive to uh
to join the protests sort of well that
is the point I think I remember the
evolution you guys may be an extreme but
many of the people who depend on this
state for their support
now the younger generation
telling their parents you were wrong
you don't provide for us this Society
this state does not provide what we want
so there is a dissent within the family
it seems to me I hope it's not a wishful
thinking you know there is a kind of a
joke going around you see this attempt
guys the clergy bearded and traditional
clinical appearance
whether you see them
talking about women
they are very of course politically
correct they are very looking down
towards women
as as I said you know they have to be
inside they have to be protected they
have not to be seen and so forth but if
they have a young person
a young daughter in their family you see
that their
discourse changes they no longer seem to
be referring to women as second class
yeah so that's very important that's
precisely that point that when you have
this younger generation no matter how
privileged they are and many of them are
privileged you know and there is also
the regime has created its own
uh privileged class
that are not necessarily
directly paid by the regime but they
benefit from
contractors certain professions that
that benefit from what the state
provides for them and Iran is a I mean
the past 40 years you can see Iran has
developed in terms of material culture
remarkably
Iran has good communication as roads all
over the place it's not like a
it's more like I don't know whether you
have ever visited turkey for instance in
certain respects even more advanced than
turkey but it's closer to that rather
than if you travel I don't want to bring
particular names in North Africa
or parts of the Middle East or other
parts of the Islamic world it's much
much different
so in this respect you would see
a certain contrast or paradoxes here on
the certain respect there is the growth
and there is urbanization there is
modern economy on the other hand you see
this superimposed
ideological doctrinal
aspect that has driven the regime over
all these years
and they cannot get rid of it
they cannot in this respect they cannot
modernize themselves they think that
they are already perfect in ideological
sense this is the best solution for the
world not for only for Iran but for the
Muslim world and for the word as a whole
we are Anti-Imperialist
we have managed to survive either under
sanctions this is all parts of the
rhetoric but of course at a huge expense
uh the huge expense for their own
population and the points that we have
raised is the fact that we now Witness
there is a
not only a generation gap between the
youth
and their parents
but there is a break in a sense from the
older Generations
and they are very distinctly the youth
that has a different view of the world
and it does not want to compromise
whether they would be able to succeed or
not remains to be seen whether this
regime is going to suppress it maybe
uh but it actually
brought to surface many of aspects of
the weaknesses of this regime in power
well I hear from a lot of people that
are in these protests now and so my love
goes to them and stays strong because uh
it's inspiring to see people fighting
for those things the
women life and freedom especially
Freedom yes because that can only lead
to a good thing in the long term at
least and if possible to avoid a violent
revolution
of course that is something that we all
want to see before we return to the
present let's Jump Around let's go to
the past we mentioned 1979
what happened in 1979 in Iran well in
1979 there was
a revolution that eventually came to be
known as the Islamic revolution and even
up to this day
many of The Observers or those who have
strong views that would not like to
refer to it as an Islamic revolution or
even a revolution
this is the because the nature of it in
the earlier stages of it started really
probably around 1977 it took two years
was much more all embracing it was not
Islamic in a particular fashion or at
all in a sense it started with a kind of
a very liberal Democrats
uh agenda
which required which demanded mostly by
people
who were the veterans of the older
generations of Iranian liberal
nationalists that were left out in the
palabi period it's a period of the Shah
became increasingly
um authoritarian
increasing the suppressive
and therefore basically living no space
no political space
open for any kind of a give and take
any kind of a conversation or
participation 2017 70s 70s particularly
in the 70s can we actually even like
just do a a whirlwind
review from 1906 to 1979. okay sure in
1906 there was a period like actually as
you might know the first decade or this
so of uh of the 20th century witnessed
numerous
what's referred to as constitutional
revolutions including Russia 1905 the
first Revolution
including the Chinese Revolution in 19
constitution in 1910 the young Texas
Revolution in 1908 and the Iranian
Revolution in 1906. to understand why
the synchronicity of all of it why in so
many different places very different
cultures very different governments very
different cultures but all of them in a
sense were coming out of
the regimes that became uh uh
progressively powerful
without having any kind of a legal
system that would protect the individual
vis-a-vis state so the idea of law
and the Constitution According to which
there should be a certain protection a
certain Civil Society became very common
yeah but I wonder where that because
that's been that way for for a very very
long time and so I wonder
you know it's funny a certain ideas just
their time comes exactly it's like 1848
when you would see that there's a whole
range of revolutions
across Europe yeah or you would see for
instance the Arab Spring you see all
these Revolutions in the Arab world
which unfortunately nearly all of them
failed
so yes these are very contagious ideas
that moves across Frontiers from one
culture to another and I presume we can
add to that there are two elements which
one can say there is a greater
communication there is the greatest
sense of a world economy and the third
of the century witnessed the first
decade of the century witnessed a period
of uh volatility particularly in uh in
currency
so many of the countries of the world
particularly non-west
suffered in and
particularly the businesses suffered
and not surprisingly the business class
were in the Forefront of many of this
constitutional movements requiring the
state to give the a kind of a created
the right kind of Institutions to listen
to their voices to their concerns and
the creation of the democratic system
parliamentary and system with which
there would be a representation
popular representation proper elections
and so forth and constitutions and this
very much is a kind of a French idea of
the Constitution going back all the way
perhaps to 1789 Revolution
Montesquieu all this kind of philosoph
were greatly appreciated particularly a
different system so what were the ideas
in the 1906 Iranian Constitution they
precisely the same they were demanding a
creation of a legal system with division
of power between the three
executive
legislative and the Judiciary and that's
unlike the American system
and they requested
um basically a certain uh public space
to be created between the two sources of
power the state which had this kind of a
control over the if you like the secular
aspect of life in the society and the
religious establishment that had a full
control over the religious aspects and
both of them from the perspective of the
Constitution and this considered as
repressive and therefore there has to be
a new space open between these two
and that was the idea of a
constitutional Revolution but but it's
very nature it was an idea of modernity
they wanted the modern society they
wanted a better material life they they
wanted a more representation and and so
forth the Constitutional Revolution
as I always would say is much more of a
innocent Revolution it's a revolution
that did not particularly have much
violence in it contrary to many other
revolutions
it did not have a centralized leadership
per se that's why actually I'm getting I
mean besides the practices I'm getting a
lot of requests for interviews to
compare what's happening now with the
revolution of 1906
1909 are there any Echoes yes yes there
are there are because that was a
movement that started without a without
a centralized leadership
what actually values to voices
that emerged in various among the
merchants or the businessman in the
economic Community among the
representatives who came to the first
Parliament the Press
the new generation of the privileged
aristocracy
who were educated and uh believed in the
Constitutional values all of these
voices emerged at the same time and
somehow they managed to
uh to coexist
in the first and the second uh
uh parliaments that were created uh
between 1905 6 and 1910 or 1911.
but they all face huge problems
in the sense that Iran was in a dire
economic situation this is before the
days of the discovery of oil which
actually coincides with this card there
are two important coincidences one is
that the oil was discovered in the south
in 1909
during the course of the Constitutional
Revolution the second is that in 1907
the two great powers of the time the
Russian Empire and the British Empire
who always honored Iran as being a
buffer State between them because they
didn't want to get too close to one
another
basically came to an agreement facing
the fear of the rise of the German
Empire so this is the period of Anton as
you might know in European history
whereby the front the French the British
and the Russians all create a
Alliance that ultimately leads to the
first world war against Germany and at
the same time the discovery of oil that
the oil industry being a very powerful
defining factor of the 20th century for
Iran exactly source of a lot of money a
lot of money but not all of it in the
hands of the Iranians only 150 of it
by way of royalties came to Iran there
is much of it went to the Anglo
passion a old company which they
actually discovered the oil in the
province who was the star province in
the southwest of Iran raised the major
oil Industries today right now
and
this is an extremely profitable uh
Enterprise for that company and for the
British government it actually purchased
by the British government Churchill
purchased anglo-iranian oil company for
the British government so it was not
anymore a private company it was a
British interest as a matter of fact and
in the course of the 20th century
although it helped the modernization in
Iran but it also helped the creation of
a more authoritative Syria more
strong state if you like to call it
that it does that 19th century Iran
never had that kind of a power never had
that kind of resources it's the 20th
century even that one-fifth of the
income that reached the Iranian State
gave it a greater power that's another
coincidence
so yes yes you could say the oil was one
of the catalysts for absolute power but
the 20th century saw quite a few
countries
um have dictators with power unlike
anything else in human history yes
that's weird too
but precisely and you know you can name
them from the beginning of the century
with people like
um I don't know Lenin or Stalin of
course Hitler even though Mao of course
you can name them and probably as I
would say is the last of them is
Khomeini in that Century that you would
see this strong man
with a sense of even a a
artificial or real or a sense of a
so-called Charisma and with this total
power over the regime that they create
in the some of them do Nasser they
didn't have much of an oil resources in
Egypt but he was also one of these
strong men okay in the 20th century
loved by some hated by others uh so it
necessarily does not tie up to
uh to Resource economic resources
underground but in the Iranian case
unfortunately it did
and it was a uh it was more than it
created more than one issue for Iran
it's created a strong state which is the
parlavist state from 1920 one onward
because in 1921 at the end of the first
world war Iran was in a almost a state
of total bankruptcy
and uh the British had a desire to try
to bring Iran to the system that they
created in the Middle East in the
postwater era the mandate system
Palestine Iraq and then of course French
Mandate of Lebanon and Syria all of this
and Iran was separate because Iran was
an independent country it wasn't part of
the ottawan Empire that collapsed
so they had to somehow handle it
and what they tried to do didn't work
as a result
partly domestic partly international
issues wrote about a regime which is
headed by the founder of the
Parliamentary
okay the first military officer called
Reza Khan actually a military officer of
the Kozak forces and the Kozak forces
was the force that was created in the
19th century model of the Russian kozaks
when the ruler in the 19th century
visited Russia as in a Royal tour and
the desire should the Great
uh Kozak forces is that I like this and
he created one for himself with Russian
officers actually so the Russian
officers served in Iran from Iran
1880s up to the revolution of 1917. the
collapse of the yeah so many revolutions
so many revolutions and Reza shop was an
officer in that Reza Khan was an officer
in that first and he created a new
monarchy for reasons that we needed to
go to and Discord the palabi regime
regime was a modernizing regime
okay that brought a company in effect
fulfilled many of the Ambitions of the
Constitution many of the aspirations of
the Constitution better communication
but uh secular education
um centralizes States and centralized
Army
better contact with the outside world
greater urbanization that's what a
modern state is all about
and in that regard in a sense for the
first 20 years up to the second world
war was successful
despite and more significant of all it
managed to keep the European powers
which is always interfering in the local
Affairs of Iran in an amlex so they were
there
in an arm length
but they were also
respecting the power of the state
part of the Apollo State during the
second second world war the same
phenomenon
as
earlier interference led to the
occupation of Iran by the Allied Forces
the British from the south the Russians
from the north
the Red Army they took over Iran and of
course the second world war yes from
1941 up to 1945 and of course when the
when the Red Army refused to
uh withdraw from Iranian Azerbaijan
and with some
thought of possible annexation of
that Province there was a big issue in
the possible Iran so after 1945 yes 1945
to 1946 there was a big
Soviet Union getting greedy yes but
eventually they agreed eventually Stalin
agreed to leave
the Azerbaijan province in the hope that
it would get some concessions from Iran
which in the oil of the Caspian era area
which didn't work and it's a different
story altogether but what happened is
that in the post-war era
between
1944 45 and 1953 is a period of Greater
uh democratization was that
vessels dictatorship basically
disappeared
and this is where you would see
political parties Free Press
a lot of chaotic really
as as democracies often are so something
like was it was it officially a
democracy yes it was it the market was
there elections there were elections yes
of course yes of course and they were
very diverse political tendencies
came to the picture including the to the
party of Iran which is Communist Party
of Iran this Communist Party of Iran is
probably the biggest
Communist Party of the whole of the
Middle East and one of the biggest in
the world actually at that time did the
Soviet Union have a significant
influence on uh of course we're
basically following orders from the
Soviets although they deny it but in
reality that's the case yeah but what
happened they were seen by the Americans
during the Cold War as if as a threat
and Iran was going through a period of
demanding nationalization of his oil
resources that's a very important
episode with mosadir whom you might have
heard about his name Dr Muhammad Musa
was the Prime Minister and the national
charismatic leader
from
1951 to 1953 prior to that he was a
famous parliamentarian but this period
was the Prime Minister of Iran and he
nationalized the Iranian oil industry
and the British didn't like it at all
and eventually resulted in a famous crew
which at least partly was supported by
the funding
and by the moral supports of the British
and the Americans particularly by the
emergence it was always
seen as one of the earliest and the most
successful CIA operations during the
Cold War to see I had something to do
with this of course that's one of the
earliest operations of the CIA wait a
minute what was yes of course what was
the same what was the CIA doing CIA this
is the time at the post for era in the
50s in the 50s 40s and the 50s
the British Empire which was really the
major superpower of the region after the
collapse of the desires Empire
gradually took the second
seat
to the Americans to where the newcomers
and the great powers and the victors of
the second World War
and the Americans viewed Iran as an
important
uh uh as an important country since it
has the largest
common borders with the Soviet Union
and it's what I did the size was the
Persian goldfish at the time was the
greatest uh uh supplier of uh oil to the
outside world and therefore the
Americans uh had a particular interest
in Iraq and in the earlier stages their
interest was in the interest of the
Iranian government because they wanted
to get rid of both
the Soviet Union which made the return
in the first War era and of course the
British that were gradually withdrawing
from Iraq but they they had a full
control over the anglo-iranian or
company they changed the name to angular
Iranian or company
when the name of the country officially
changed from Persia to Iran
in the west
the name of the company changed and they
got into a huge dispute with the wasada
government that eventually led to the
coup of 1953 which eventually created it
very
uh very distressful memory
in the minds of many of the Iranian
nationalists that this was the betrayer
of the great Powers the British and
Americans yes CIA played a part because
see I feared
contrary to the British that they were
afraid of their own oil in Iran the CIA
was afraid of the Soviet penetration in
in the South and particularly because
there was a very powerful
a very powerful Communist party you know
the two-day party of Iran
so they
gradually shifted between the Truman
Administration and our Eisenhower
Administration these are early days of
the CIA and then they actually did
participate uh to set their agents
there's a long story to that and it
eventually resulted in a successful coup
that removed from Power what's the
United States interest here why are they
using CIA are they trying to make sure
there's not too much centralization of
power in this region they were afraid of
the fact that the
that of the Soviet Union and during the
Cold War that was the cancer
they actually almost want to protect
Iran and its own Sovereign processes
from the influence of the Soviets yes
because they were afraid of the fact
if Iran or at least this is part of the
I'm simplifying a very complex picture
but the but but the Americans basically
were thinking that if Iran is going to
be lost
choose Soviet influence
then eventually basically the all the
oil resources in the Persian Gulf are
going to be threatened
and therefore and this would basically
is the National Security of the United
States and all of the western allies
European allies
so in a sense this was the long arm of
the CIA to try to
try to make sure that that's not going
to happen and then of course they'll be
persuaded by the British because British
were the old hand which were in Iran
since the beginning of the 19th century
they always had relations with Iran and
so forth so they gradually replaced and
and of course they don't want to give
them this kind of a satanic view that
American was a bad influence because
they had also some very good influences
in Iraq but this particular episode
somehow
shed dark lights
on the American presence and was used
that abused time and again particularly
the revolution
1979 which was this great Satan idea
that Khomeini created basically was
based on the fact is 1953 you were
responsible for the downfall of a
national government in Iran which as a
matter of fact he had no respect for it
Romani had no respect for the national
secular National liberals including
Muhammad Musa there but he was using it
as a as a rhetorical tool for his own
purposes but what happened is that after
we see again the rise of authoritarian
Muhammad result's power
and then he is that's the Shah that's
the Shah that we know as sure this is
the son of research and uh technically
what what is Shah is it actually is an
old term impression
that comes from a pre-islamic portion of
ancient times in the context of
democracy should it be seen as like a
supreme leader King is the head of the
executive power according to the
Constitution of 1906. oh that's in the
Constitution they actually yeah as a
place in the Constitution but the actual
term sure okay interesting what this
show is a very old term yeah it's almost
like a monarchic term like uh like a
king yeah it is actually is the term
peculiar to Iran I've written about it
somewhere but because the term that the
Western World in the ancient times has
been Rex for royalty and the King
in the Eastern World in India is right
it's the same origin the same route
Iran never shared that they had the idea
of because the next Android I don't want
to get into the too much of a etymology
but this is an interesting one yeah Rex
and Raj both means the one that opens
the road for
basically in four set of religion okay
um in uh enforcer of the right religion
because Rex and Raj both have the uh
after a typological uh origin of Rights
you see and right means the right
religion basically by the way there's so
much beautiful language here I'm just
looking at the the Persian constitution
in 1906 and it says it's the
constitution of the sublime state of
Persia pajar Iran I mean just just the
extra adjectives on top of this stuff is
beautiful I mean yeah because that was
actually the change that came about I
don't want to go in too much into it but
it was called as I pointed out before
the guarded domains of Iraq yes they
changed that to the sublime state of
Iran during the Constitutional
Revolution because they wanted to give a
greater sense of centrality of this
state yeah and Sublime was the term
refused but also what permeates all this
is a is a poetic I mean there is a
history of poetry of course based on the
culture it's just fascinating so I mean
it's I I of course I don't speak the
language but even in in Russian there's
also
a music
to the soul of the people that
represents itself that presents itself
in the form of poetry and literature in
the way that it doesn't in the in the
English-speaking world I don't know what
that is there's um there's a Romantics
like romantic romantic side that's right
yeah I agree with you in Iran of course
you know it is the time of the
Constitutional Revolution it's a time of
great poetry
this kind of a patriotic
sentiments that comes through poetry
plays a very important part uh of course
these days poetry has kind of declined
and instead you see the visual image
that is at the center that's why Cinema
is so important because these days with
their Tick Tock yeah let me finish this
about this period of biometricia he
built up because he received the greater
income
from the oil revenue and it built up a
very strong state with a strong security
Force
a strong security apparatus which is the
savark there's a uh which is a acronym
for the security force in security
organization
and he of course unfortunately in the
1960s and 70s particularly 1970s
basically suppress the voices of or
possibility of any kind of a mass
participation in the political uh
process it became very much an
authoritarian regime with its own
technocrats
very much a modernist
vision of of of of Iran's future and
almost kind of Messianic that he was
hoping that Iran in a decade would
become the fifth most powerful estate in
the world and the riches as he would
have said the gates of the great
civilization very much in the mind
had this image of ancient Iran of the
community Empire and we want to go back
to that greatness of the archimedian
Empire somewhat rather naive and very
nationalistic and crude fashion and what
happened is that as a result there was
built up some kind of a resistance from
the intellectuals from the left
eventually resulting in a kind of a
protest movement as I said by 1977 1978.
then of course the question that comes
to mind and the probably it you have you
you would like to know about is the fact
that why it becomes religious why it's
become Islamic if it's the popular
you know nationalist liberal tendency of
opening up the political uh uh space
and along greater participation going
back to the Constitution
of 1906 1907 why it's all of a sudden it
becomes Khomeini where does he come from
the reason for that at least in a
concise fashion is the fact that on one
area
that
after the greatest suppression of all
the other voices remained
open was religion masks
the mullahs on the pulpit
and the message that gradually shifted
from the older traditional message of
the Sharia of Islam I mean all the rules
and regulations of how one has to live
into something very political
and not only political but also radical
political
so
in the whole period from the
Constitutional Revolution to the
revolution of 1979
basically the religious establishment
gradually was pushed to the opposition
they were not originally very
conservative supported us of State as
the Catholic church for instance was
supported of majority of the
authoritarian governments around the
world
but the politicization
was the result of isolation
because they were left out of the system
and while in isolation they did they did
not they were not successful
in
trying to reform themselves to try to
become to try to find answers to many of
the questions from Modern Times what
happens to women what happens to civil
rights what happens to a civil society
how the modern law and individual
freedoms have to be defined in Islamic
terms how to separate uh religion and
state or how to separate the religion
and state these issues were never
addressed
what happened is that there was this
bypass through political
uh Islam and
revolutionary Islam as it gradually they
learned you know that this is the bypass
bypass to power basically to become
again a voice in the society and
eventually a prominent voice and
eventually monolithic voice and the
society that's the process that led into
the revolution of 1979 basically this
period
greater attention was paid to religion
even among the secular middle classes
who were alienated
for a very long time because of this
extensive modernization of the pallavi
period they had they didn't have a sense
of that old
monoliths with their turbans
but they became they had it kind of aura
in this period yes they are those who
remain not corrupted
they are the people who basically went
against the suppression of the palavi
regime and Khomeini became a leader a
symbol of that nobody ever thought in
the earlier stages
and bank this very excited multitudes
that came to the streets of the Iranian
cities in 1979 or 1978 actually
thought that this this old ball line
with 70s
that all of a sudden has appeared from
the najaf
through Paris to Tehran is going to take
over and create a autocracy a religious
autocracy we have to back up for just a
second who who is how many uh who you
just you just mentioned a few desperate
facts about the man yeah he was the
person that took power in 1979 supreme
leader of Iran yes some you mentioned
something about Paris something about
being in the 70s yes what should we know
about the guy oh yeah
who eventually was known as Imam Gomez
he was kind of promoted to a even more
Sublime position okay okay uh can we I'm
just a million tangents uh Ayatollah
Imam what do these terms mean well
Ayatollah means the
sign of God
in the course of the 19th century or
early 20th century as the religious
establishment gradually lost its
greater presence in the society and
these prominent places in society they
had some kind different inflation in
titles
so they gave themselves a more Grand
titles yeah more adjectives more
adjectives more Grand titers such as
Ayatollah that became a kind of a
highest rank of the religious hierarchy
but it incidentally was in on you know
unofficial hierarchy there was not it's
not like the Chris like Catholic Church
that you have you know Bishops and you
know Federer it was very unofficial
mother and he was an Ayatollah it was
eventually recognized as an Ayatollah he
was in the first Ayatollah no no no not
at all the ayatollahs were before him
ever since the beginning of the century
but he was eventually recognized as an
Ayatollah and if I want to study this
way
Ayatollah how many was born in 1900
and in a sense all these tremendous
change that Iran witnessed in the course
of the
20th century was in a sense
materializing this person
he become
a mullah of a lower rank went to the
traditional mattresses to the
traditional
centers for the education of the
seminarians
never had a secular education
had a very complex Islamic education on
this one-hand jurisprudence on the other
hand probably a little bit of Islamic
philosophy and mysticism which is
unusual for the Juris for the for the
factory as they call them this religious
Scholars or or legal Scholars of Islam
and then he in the 1960s
when he was residing in Tehran and
gradually becoming more important
he became a voice of opposition against
the Shah
and the reason for opposition uh in the
1960 early 1960s was the fact that the
shot
carried through a series of
extensive
modernization policies of which the most
important was the land reform
so in effect the land distribution that
took place in the early 60s
removed or weakened greatly that class
of land owners from the ancient from the
19th century
and
he uh Khomeini saw himself as a voice of
that old class
that uh felt that actually declared that
this land distribution is on Islamic
according to the Islamic law
properties
a property is honored and you cannot
just
no matter how much and how large are
these states that the landowning class
has the government has no right to
redistribute it even Among The Peasants
among among the
people who are killing the land
so that was a major issue Shaw also gave
the right of
vote to women
and that also he objected is that women
should not have a right can we just
Linger on the Islamic law
How firm and clear
is the Islamic law that he was
representing and embodying is this um
codified codified yes that's a good term
yeah that's another issue not only the
hierarchy was unofficial
but also uh Islamic law particularly
Shiloh
did not have any
uh codified system
because this religious Authority is
always resisted
becoming under a
umbrella of a more codified system of
Islamic law because they were outside
the state in essence civil civil law was
in the hand of the religious
establishment they had their own courts
independent of the state but other
matters of legal matters was in the hand
of the government there was a kind of in
de facto division between these two
institutions State versus the religious
establishment
therefore it was not codified so he
could declare that this is unofficial or
I said illegal according to the Islamic
law that you would distributed land to
the presence and another must ahead or
another religious Authority would say no
no it's perfectly fine because he would
has a different reading of the law so
that being in mind that adds to the
complexity of the picture he in the 1963
there was a period of uprising of the
supporters of Ayatollah Khomeini
that was the turning point in a sense to
try to
politicize the religious
supporters of ayatulate who were loyal
to other Harmony and in a sense all the
community of more religiously orientated
against the secular policies of the Shah
and against of course the dictatorship
of the show so that's where the
religious movement became a political
party in 1963 is the first moment it's a
huge Uprising and the government
suppressed it
but then suppression yes would start to
build of course and he was sent to Exile
he went to najaf which is this great
Center in southern so it became a martyr
on top of this at the Martyr he was
probably even forgotten to some extent
but not it was forgotten for the
for the secular
middle class but not to those supporters
of his who were paying him their dues
because in Islam you would paid use to
religious leaders you know there's
religious Jews and arms that you put pay
to the clerical authorities and they
redistribute them among their own
students and so forth so they built
actually a network of loyalty based on
this uh donations and these donations uh
that's received by atolo Khomeini was
very effectively through his network was
distributed even if he was in Exile
asadira
so the 1977 1978
when the situation changed and there was
a little bit of opening
in the political climate
then you saw that Ayatollah Khomeini
starts sending cassette messages that
was his mean of communication but
sending cassettes and cassettes were
sent through the country by his Network
so or declarations and saying first that
we would like to see a greater
democratization and the Shah has to
abide by the Constitution of 1907
this is a constitution this is a
democratic system and so forth was he
charismatic well it depends who would
call what do you call charismatic yeah
the long beard it was kind of a man in
turban and the Gown which was a very
unusual leadership
for people who were much more accustomed
to the civilian clothing or to the
equipments of the Shaw's military
uniforms that he used to wear but I also
mean like he's a man I was able to take
power to become popular sufficiently
popular so like I I would like is it the
ideas is it an accident or is it the man
himself the Charisma or something about
the man that led to this particular
person
basically changing the tide of history
in this part of the world in a way
unexpected all the above that you
mentioned or was it just the beard
no I think no it's beyond the appearance
because the appearance is greatly helps
as you know yeah you know in the 20th
century appearance is helpful yeah
pictures for propaganda for messaging
that's an important factor and he wasn't
uh kind of a adamant
and very severe
in his own positions
he could appear very uncompromising
and he had a sense of confidence
self-confidence
that we truly everybody else lacked
and
he was a man of opportunity
as soon as he would see that
a chance an opportunity would open up
he would jump on it
and that's what he did basically as more
the political space opened the
weaknesses of the shortest government
became more evident his indecision
became more evident
his lack of confidence became more
evident
Khomeini managed to move further into
the center of the movement because he
was the only Authority that had this
network of support through the masks
through the people who paid
homage to him
who followed him because there's a sense
of following
of the religious leader in shiza you are
a follower of this Authority follower of
that Society
and he's basically created
an environment in which people
looked upon him as a kind of a Messianic
figure yeah
that came to save Iran
from what they considered at the time
the problems of uh dictatorship under
the shore
so there's not a suspicion about Islamic
law being the primary law of the
language people had very little sense
that what Islamic law is all about
because the secular education has left
that into the old religious schools this
is not something that ordinary educated
Iranian who goes to the universities is
going to learn and therefore there is a
sense of idealization that there is
something great there that is and there
were quite a number of intellectuals
who also viewed this kind of an idea of
they would refer to as this toxication
that is this civilization of the West
that has brought with it
all the modernity that we see around
ourselves has
enormous Sinister features into it and
it has taken away from us our
authenticity
that was the thing that there is
something authentic that should be
protected and therefore a man in that
kind of a Garb and appearance
received as a source
for return to this originality of their
own culture authenticity of their own
culture and he perfectly
took advantage of that that's how many
tricky advantage of it and the circle
around him I
expensive everybody else which she
managed in the course of 1979 to 1989
which he passed away it died in the 10
years during this period managed to
basically transform
the Iranian Society
to create institutions of the Islamic
Republic
and to acquire himself the position of
the Guardian jurists
that was something completely new it
didn't ever exist
before as a matter of fact as you might
know
the model of government that a religious
establishment takes over the states
is unprecedented throughout the course
of Iranian history throughout the course
of the Islamic history I would say this
is the first example and probably the
only example
of a of a regime
that religious establishment that has
always in the course of Iranian history
ever since I would say probably at the
16th century if not earlier
has been always
separate from this state
and always kind of collaborating with
this state in a with a certain tensions
in between the two of them there were
two basically as they would call
themselves the two pillars of stability
in the society
that situation changed for the first
time the religious establishment took
over
the power of this state
and that's at the core of what we see
today as a major issue
for Iranian Society because
these are basically that old balance
between the religion and the state which
was kind of de facto
uh separation of the authorities of the
two
uh has been violated and now you have
empowered if your theocracy in effect
which of course only in the on the on in
its appearances theocracy deep down it's
a in my opinion is the brutal fascist
regime that it stays in power but it has
the appearance of religion into it so
this is really the story of the
revolution
and as a result of that the Iranian
middle classes greatly suffered it's not
without a reason that you see 4 million
Iranians abroad because basically the
emergence of this new power
gradually
uh isolated or marginalized the secular
middle class who could not survive under
that regime
and gradually moved out
uh in the course of perhaps 30 40 years
up to now Iran has the largest I think
I'm right to say so has the largest
brain drain in any country in the world
according to its population so
fascinating that um how much of a weird
Quirk of history is it that
uh that religion
would take hold in a country like does
it have to do with the individual
it seems like if we re ran the 20th
century
uh a thousand times
we would get the uh 79 Revolution
resulting in um Islamic law like less
than
you know one percent of the time it
feels like or no what which percentage
would you put well I think has something
to do
with the very complex nature
of how Iran evolved
over a long period of time since the
16th century that's why if I would for a
moment talk about what I have written
I've written a book that's called Iran
and modern history and it does not start
in the 20th century it starts in the
16th century yeah because that's what I
have argued that this complex process
that at the end of the day resulted in
what we see around us today is something
that was in making for a very long time
and religion was a big part of it she
and the the the Messiah complex the
exactly the the longing for this great
vision of a great nation that somehow is
um
the sublime nation that can only be
fully Sublime through uh through
religion or at the time it was thought
that is true religion ever since then
it's disillusionment with that image
yeah or at least a process of this
illusionment the outcome of it is what
we see today basically that process of
40 years is a process of readjusting to
the realities of the world
that that great moment of romantic
success of a revolution like most
Revolutions of course that is going to
change Iran and bring this kind of a
moment of greatest led into this great
disappointment so the movement of the
great disappointment in a sense
like most Messianic movements by the way
Mosaic move as a general are always
leading into great disappointments but
what I have here that perhaps should be
added to it that yes it was the
peculiarity of Iran as a society that
had to experience
this eventual
encounter between religion and state
that's something to do with the nature
of Jesus that's just one point that
should be pointed out
most of Sunni Islam don't have that kind
of I say most because there is something
there but Sony Islam in general does not
have that kind of an aspiration for the
coming of a Messianic
uh uh a leader
she's them does
she's I mean it's very shaping
particularly the way that it was set up
in Iran
was a religion that has always this
element of expectation to it
for the coming of this
Messianic leader of course I mean
between parenthesis all societies look
for
Messianic leaders I'm just look around
us but some societies more than others
there's certain culture it might have to
do with them the Romantic poetry that we
mentioned earlier I mean surely I mean
not to draw to me parallels but the
Soviet Union there is romanticism too
and I mean I don't know there there it
does
maybe idealism
a sense of his savior yeah who would
who would bring you out of the misery
that you are in
and and always looking for a
for a third party
to solve your
issues that's why probably this movement
has a
particularly significance because it
probably doesn't look for a messiah
although I was talking to my brother who
is the historian also and he was saying
perhaps the Messiah of this movement is
that mass or amini the 22 year old girl
that was killed it's a market Messiah
who is now leading a movement which no
longer has that
charismatic leadership with it but yes I
would say that
Iran has been the birthplace if I might
say that
of Messianic aspirations
going back to the ancient zoracianism
which is the really the whole system
that you see in major religions or at
least best so-called Western religions
it's abrahamic religions
is parallel or perhaps influenced by
Zoroastrianism in which there is an idea
of uh this war than the other word that
is Hereafter there is an idea of a
judgment at the end of the time
and there is a concept that there is a
moment of Justice
that is going to come with the rise of a
religious or a charismatic figure so
it's a very old phenomenon in Iran very
old and it's time and again repeated
itself in the course of its history but
never as powerfully
as it happened in 1979 and never in the
form of authority from within the
religious establishment it was always
The Descent movements that were
kind of antinomian they were against the
authority of the uh religious
establishment that changed in the 20th
century
but the revolution 1979 that change is
still with us today what can we just
Linger on um
are there some practical
games of Power that occurred
you know in the way that Stalin took
power and held power in the early days
is there something like this in terms of
the establishment of the Revolutionary
guard and all those kinds of stuff yes
so it's the the Messianic figure that
has some support from the people but uh
does he have to crush his enemies in
competition
certainly did
probably not certainly not as brutal in
terms of the victims as you would see in
Soviet Union understand
who the Bloodshed or the
destruction of the population was far
greater
than what you would find in
Iran of the Islamic Republic it's
uncomfortable
perhaps I would find a greater parallel
with matzodun
and
particularly because China has a very
strong Messianic tradition
since the ancient times so they have
something and Mao appeared as the kind
of a Messianic figure
there I can see there is a parallel but
also you can see with any other
authoritarian regime with the Messianic
fear at the head of it that it destroys
all the other forces so during the
course of the first 10 years of the
Islamic revolution it destroyed the
liberal nationalists
secular
it's destroyed
the Guerrilla movements some of them
Islamic some of them marxists who turned
into political parties or tendencies in
the course of the post-revolution 1979
they were completely destroyed
and in a very brutal fashion
and uh the their opposition even within
the religious establishment because it
wasn't a uniform there were many
different Tendencies those that were
opposed to the authority of Ayatollah
Khomeini or not Imam Khomeini meaning
almost a sacred
religious figure above the level of a
religious Authority is a saint kind of a
figure he says she's them has this idea
of imams they were 11 of them the 12th
is hidden and would come back at the end
of the time this is okay Messianic
figure
so the title that was always used for
them only in shiza never used for any
other person
he is the first person in the revolution
of 1979 first referred to as Deputy of
Imam
but the term Deputy gradually
disappeared and he became Imam Khomeini
this is that his official title I love
human beings so much
it's so beautiful these uh titles that
we give each other it's um but it's
marvelous stuff you love it because you
haven't been under that system no I I
love it in a way I love it in a very
dark
kind of way it caricatures itself it's
it's almost funny in its absurdity if
not for the evil that it has led to in
human history uh but also the fact that
it's a man is in fact fulfillment in a
kind of completely
um unintended fashion is a fulfillment
of that idea of a messiah that they've
been fighting for this Imam which is in
ahide for a thousand years is here and
not here
and therefore Khomeini would have in
effect fulfilled those anticipations but
beyond that I just give you one example
I know that you may have other concerns
but
when I say elimination
at the end of the iran-iraq war
by the direct order of Ayatollah
Khomeini a fatwa that he wrote a group
of prisoners
who belong to a variety of uh
political parties the left religious
left
majority of them
the left and the the Marxist left and
the religious left
in a matter of a few weeks or perhaps a
few months I'm not actually quite sure
about the times that
uh in a series of these were people who
have already been tried
and they were given uh sentences
they were brought back
before the uh summary Trials of three
judges or more three four of them one of
them is now the
new president of the Islamic Republic
and they were given a a quick summary
sentences which meant execution
so something between probably six to
eight thousand
were executed in matter of a month or
two months something like that
mostly in Tehran but also in provinces
and that's remained an extraordinary
trauma
for the families for those who had these
kids in they're all young all young
so this remains very much uh
kind of uh original sin of the Islamic
Republic
that cannot get rid of
and it's in people's memories they
didn't allow them even the families
to go and mourn
their dead in a an official symmetry
which they created for them now the
latest thing is that they put a huge a
concrete wall around it so nobody would
be able to get into it
so these all part of this extraordinary
level of
atrocity
brutality that you see that the regime
claimed that it comes with the morality
of religion and Islam to bring back the
justice and and and be more
uh in a sense kind to people ended up
with what it is in the memory of many of
the people in Iraq so developing these
fascistic Tendencies very much
destroying minorities Baha'is one of
them
hundreds of bahais were without any
reason without any involvement we picked
up and uh
executed the properties were taken over
their rights were taken away from them
even up to this day this is the largest
by the very religious minority in Iran
so you would see that in many areas
this is a ax very much as an Beyond
authoritarian it's a kind of really
fascistic regime foreign
held power for 10 years
and then took power the next Supreme
All Right leader who is still the leader
today for over 30 years who is he
well he was one of the this is
one day perhaps no well they hesitated
to use the term Imam for him
but in any other respect he was given
all of that adulation yes that they did
to how many he is the guardian jurist
that's what's important because the
guardian jurist in the constitution of
the Islamic Republic is an authority
that is above this state
he is not
elected quote-unquote because
this is a Divine Authority although he
has been designated by the group of the
terror and mullah's like himself
and uh
he has the full power over all
uh
institutions of the state
the Army the media
the economy every aspect of the acts
like you show
it's like this authoritarian Authority
did that gradually develop or was that
very early on well that's part of the
Constitution of the Islamic Republic
the first constitution
um in the first draft of the
Constitution did not have the authority
of the Guardian Judas but then it was
added by
Khomeini and his supporters are there
actual in the Constitution any limits to
his power
yes there is a council of the experts so
to say
that would
remove him from Power I think
theoretically
but there is so much
restrictions to that that I don't think
it would have ever happened in reality
in his case at least but in terms of
executive to make decisions and all that
kind of stuff does he need to check with
anybody no
boy he does check
with his own advisors but he's he
doesn't have any he doesn't have any
constitutional obligation to check on
the decisions that he's making
so that's the supreme leader but there's
been presidents yes and what's the role
of the president the president in a
sense is the executive power
under the Islamic Republic there are
three heads of
powers
this is the president that presumably
has the executive power
there is the head of the judiciary
and there is the head of the
uh the speaker of the parliament much
less Islamic
which is the uh the legislative so the
legislative
Judiciary and executive
who is now the president
is the uh the head of the Executive
above them
is the supremely there or the guardian
jurist can you give me some insight
because I especially
I'm not exactly sure why but uh the
president Ahmadinejad
is somebody I'm as an American really
familiar with why is that exactly but
why was why was the president the
public-facing person to the world versus
the supreme leader uh is that just a
accident of a particular humans involved
or is this by Design no because the
supreme leader tries to keep himself out
of
issues of everyday politics supposedly
yeah but therefore he is not coming to
United Nations to give a speech during
the uh session uh but Mr ahmadines at
the time was the president
uh would come and make outrageous
statements that's why you probably know
something about him so all of them make
public statements but he had a
proclivity for outrageous statements
and it does all kinds of things he makes
all kinds of statements but he is
somewhat above the everyday politics in
theory
but of course he is pulling all the
strings with without doubt in every last
respect and it seems that you were asked
I thought you're going to ask me this
question almost without a an exception
since the Inception of the Islamic
Republic in 1979
up to the last of the presidents of the
Islamic Republic Rouhani before the guy
that is last year or a year and a half
ago was in a phony election uh uh got
into the position of the president
all of them on the long list
all of them eventually fell out with the
regime mm-hmm so there is no president
except perhaps to some extent through a
honey but we'll wait and see what is
going to happen to him but prior to him
all of them including ahmadine Azad fell
out with the regime with the current
regime in Iraq who's Johannes he was
officially president for eight years
yeah prior to raisy Ibrahimovic the 221
the year what you're saying is a phony
election yesterday
what happened because the process of
actually
candidacy
for presidency is completely controlled
by a a cancer that is under the control
of the uh supreme leader so they have to
approve who is going to be the candidate
so why does everybody can enter and say
I would like to be a candidate so did
Rouhani follow out of favor you're
saying there's something yeah well he is
kind of out of favor now because he was
more moderate than this this most recent
regime what the point is that
if you look this is something almost
institutional
constitutional to the regime this is the
regime that rejects all of the executive
powers
because it's because the division
between the supreme authority as the
place of a supreme authority versus the
presidency has
problematic
it is as if there would be a
a a supreme leader in the United States
above all these three sources of power
I mean that's the kind of any view that
we can see in today's Iran and of course
he is at the focus of all the criticism
that he receives from the demonstrators
in today's Iran
so on top of all this
recently and throughout the last several
years U.S and Iran
are in the midst of nuclear deal
negotiations this is another part of the
story of Iran
is uh the development of nuclear weapons
the nuclear program they're looking to
restore the nuclear deal known as The
Joint comprehensive plan of action jcpoa
what is the history
the present and the future of these
negotiations over nuclear weapons what
is interesting to you in this full
context from the 16th century of the
Messianic
um yeah Journey uh what's interesting to
you here you can argue that for a long
time even under the shaw but much more
expressively and
decisively under the Islamic Republic
there was a
determination to have a nuclear
power or nuclear weapon in a sense I
think the bottom line of all the
negotiations everything else is that
Iran
of the Islamic Republic had the tendency
of
having its own nuclear weapon the reason
for that is that Iran was the subject of
nearly nine years eight and a half years
of
uh Iran Iraq War
when uh not only Iran faced an aggressor
Iraq that actually attacked Iran at a
very critical time at the very beginning
of the Iranian Revolution
but the fact that Iran felt kind of a
helpless
in the course of this war
and has to make great sacrifices
actually which supported the Islamic
regime and Consolidated the Islamic
regime because of this war
and most of the time
the support of the United States was
behind
Iraq Visa of Iran
and Iran felt that it's been
isolated and has to
protect itself so there is some argument
for
having a nuclear capabilities
but in reality this has resulted in as a
completely mindless crazy
a wasteful attempt on the side of the
Iranian regime
to try to develop a nuclear power and
therefore the rest of the world
particularly in this region were very
worried that if Iran would get access
to a nuclear weapon then the entire
region of the Persian Gulf
might particularly Saudi Arabia possibly
turkey possibly Egypt all of them may
require
uh may may demand to have also nuclear
weapon given the fact that Pakistan and
India has already have it
so there was a determined attempt as you
might know on the side of the western
communities or now gradually World
communities to try to as much as
possible to control Iran from getting
access to a nuclear capability or
actually limit Iran's nuclear
capabilities to what was defined usually
in a euphemism as a peaceful fashion
okay
uh that being said there was also Israel
which viewed the Islamic Republic as a
arch enemy
and some of it might be due to the
israeli's own exaggeration
of Iran's threat and some of it is
because Iran has developed a fairly
strong military as we see today
and as such this attempt to try to
prevent Iran
from Ever Getting access to nuclear
weapon which resulted as you might know
in this massive
sanctions that were imposed upon Iran
ever since the beginning of the
revolution in 1979 and of course more
intensively since 2015 2016 even prior
to that probably a little bit earlier
this this agreement the nuclear
agreement was supposed to
control or monitor
Iranian nuclear industry or nuclear
setup
in exchange for removing the sanctions
what this never worked in a matter of
fact in a very successful satisfactory
way for the Iranians or for the
Americans particularly under Trump
Administration which I think foolishly
decided to scrap
the agreement that was reached under
President Obama
like many other policies that was
implemented under Trump Administration
this created a major problem that is how
to
under Biden how to try to
come up with a new
nuclear agreement with Iran
in this process since 2016
where the United States withdrew from
the agreement
Iran felt comfortable to try to go and
do whatever they want without any kind
of monitor being monitored by the
International Community
and that's the situation now we don't
know whether Iran is really sincere
under the present regime
to negotiate a deal we don't know that
the United States is
willing to do so
and it seems that now what is happening
in terms of the protests in the Iranian
streets makes it even harder
in a public eye to try to negotiate a
deal with Iran because that means in the
minds of many
and with some justification
that uh
if the nuclear agreement would result in
the removal of many of these sanctions
millions billions
uh as the result of the removal of the
sanctions and Iran's ability to sell it
it's all in the international market
without any restrictions
means that the Iranian government is
going to become even more powerful
more financially secure in order to
suppress its own people
so that's the agreement that goes
against
coming to terms with with uh Iran but
the problem is that there is no clear
alternative even I'm not particularly
personally favorable
for this agreement to be uh to to be
ratified
but the alternative is very difficult
there is no way to try to see what can
be done
geopolitics where every alternative is
terrible
let me ask you
about one of the most complex
geopolitical situations in history
um one aspect of it is the cold war
between Iran and Israel the bigger
picture of it is sometimes referred to
as uh
israel-palestine conflict
what are all the party's Nations
involved what are the interests that are
involved what's the rhetoric
um can you understand make the case for
each side of this conflict
the European Union can of worms that it
takes another three hours of of
conversation just three hours at least
what what I can tell you is this
Iran prior to 1979
viewed itself under the Shah as a kind
of a
if not supporter of Israel
was in very good terms with Israel
they had an embassy in Iran or
unofficial Embassy you know there are
certain projects that's helping with the
Agriculture and so forth you know
but since 1979
that completely reversed
part of it is that the issue of the
Palestinian plights
remained very much at the heart
of
the Revolutionary Iranians who would see
that
part of the United States is to support
part of the United States guilt
sin
is to support Israel
vis-a-vis it's very suppressive
a very
oppressive
treatment of the Palestinians completely
illegal taking over after territories
which is not theirs since 1967.
and therefore it is upon the Iranian
regime Iranian Islamic Republic to
support the cause of the Palestinians
this came about at the time
when
the rest of the support for the
Palestinians including Arab nationalism
basically
reached a stage of bankruptcy
I mean much of the regimes of the Arab
world either are now coming to terms
with Israel or in one way or another
because of their own contingencies
because of their own
concerns and interests
are really nearly accepting
Israel in the in the region now that all
task of rhetorically supporting the
Palestinians falls upon the Islamic
Republic
that sees itself as the champion of the
Palestinians now without as a matter of
fact having either the support of the
Iranian people behind him if you ask if
tomorrow there would be a poll or a
referendum I would doubt that
80 of the Iranian people would approve
of the policies of the Islamic Republic
Visa with the issue of Palestine
nor the Palestinians themselves because
they're
the Islamic Republic is only supporting
those factions within the Palestinian
movement which are Islamic quote-unquote
and even within that they there is
problems with Hamas for instance
but nevertheless it's for the Islamic
Republic some kind of a propaganda tool
to be able to use it for its own sake
and claim that we are the champions of
the Palestinian people
whether they have a solution
if you look at the rhetoric if you
listen to the rhetoric it's the
destruction of the
state of Israel
and that's
it seems to me creates a certain anxiety
in the minds of the Israelis Israeli
population and Israeli government
particularly those who are now in power
Netanyahu the likud and more kind of a
right-wing politics of police polity of
today's Israel
that being said I think also the
Israelis try to get an extra mileage out
of
a threat of Iran quote-unquote
in order to
present themselves
a rightful to for terms of security and
whatever else
the way that they're treating the
Palestinians which I think is extremely
unjust I think it's extremely unwise
for Israel to carry on with these
policies as they did since the 67 at
least
and not to try to come to terms with it
of course there are huge amount of
I'm not denying that at all it's a huge
amount of
uh uh failures mistakes
and stupidity on the side of the
Palestinian leadership
in various stages
not to try to make a deal
or try to come to terms in some fashion
but it's a very complex picture and it's
rather unfair to the Palestinians to
accuse them for not coming to terms with
Israel under a very uneven circumstances
when they are not in a position to try
to make a fair deal in terms of the
territories
or in terms of their security in future
vis-a-visra so I think there is as you
probably know quite a lot of people that
would have a different perspective than
you just stated in terms of
you know taking the perspective of
Israel and characterizing the situation
Can you steal man that their side can
you still man Israel's side that they're
trying to be a Sovereign Nation trying
to protect themselves against threats
ultimately
wanting to create a place of safety a
place where people can pursue
all all the things that you want to
pursue in life including foremost
happiness
I tend to agree with you
and I have all the respect for the fact
that
Israel would like to create security and
happiness for its own people
but there are two arguments is one is a
moral argument
to my mind as a historian
a uh Jews across around the world for
all through their history suffered
and this is a history of suffering there
is a memory of something
and I find it enormously difficult to
believe that a nation that's the product
of so much
uh sacrifice suffering loss of life
and variety of Holocaust above all
would find itself in a position not to
give the proper Justice to a people who
could be their neighbors
and that is a moral argument which I
cannot believe under any circumstances
can be accepted second in real terms
what do you want to you want to commit
to genocide
do you have a population there
that you have to come to terms with it
and you cannot just postpone as they did
since 67 they are postponing and hoping
that it goes away somehow
I don't think it's going to go away
and and it's going to get worse right
and better
it's a long nuanced discussion and I
look forward to having it so just leave
it
um there for the moment
uh but it is
a stressful place in the world uh where
the rhetoric is existential or Iran yeah
it makes claims that he wants to wipe
a country off the face of the Earth it's
just the level of of intensity of
rhetoric is unlike anywhere else in the
world and extremely dangerous and in in
both directions so one the real danger
of the rhetoric actually being acted
upon
and then the extreme
political parties using the rhetoric to
justify
even a greater escalation
so uh yeah if Iran is saying that this
is it's saying that they're wanting to
wipe Israel off the face of the Earth
that justifies any response
uh on the other side on the other side
of course I tend to agree with you fully
and unfortunately this is a very
critical situation that
uh this region is facing Iran in
particular
I would say that
um
I hope that in the minds of the people
of Israel
there is a enough or common sense to
realize that
probably escalation on the Israeli side
is not in the favor of anybody
and try to let the Iranians to go on
with their
empty rhetoric
as they do so far but
at the same time I cannot deny the fact
that
you know there is a danger on the side
of this regime and what it says it
cannot be denied nobody can justify that
uh particularly because the Iranian
population is not behind this regime
certainly in the case of the
Palestinians or for that matter it's not
Palestine it's the the the
Islamic Republic's involvement in
Lebanon with Hezbollah it's the Islamic
Republic's involvement in Syria with
pasture Assad its involvement in other
parts of the World perhaps even Yemen
that all of them creates extra
territorial
responsibilities or interventions
unnecessary interventions
that ultimately is not in favor of
best interests of the Iranian people or
Iran as a country Iran has never been
involved in this kind of politics before
after the Islamic Republic so in a sense
the Iranian regime it seems to me by
going to the extreme try to create for
itself
a
pace
that it did not have or did not deserve
to have
within the politics of the region he
said so in other words that has become
part of the tool a kind of an instrument
for if you like to call it some kind of
an expansionism
of of the regime uh in parts of the
world where it can see there is a
possibility for for its presence for its
expansion
of course historically speaking Iran
Everest's 15th century I think that's
the earliest example I can see
in mother in alibade times has always a
tendency of moving in the direction
of not only what is today the state of
Iraq but further into the eastern coast
of mediterranea so that's a long-term
ambition that has been in the cards as
far as
Iran as a strategic unit is cancer but
by no means Justified and by no means
could be a reasonable could be a sane
policy of a nation state as today's Iran
but the second point is that also
regimes are always victims of their own
rhetoric
so it's I once you keep repeating
something
then you become more and more committed
to it
and it cannot remain anymore in the
level of a rhetoric you have to do
something about it says something
compelling pressure
to try to uh to uh to materialize what
you've been saying in your rhetoric and
that is even extremely more dangerous
as far as Iran is concerned
and it brings it to some Unholy
alliances
that today we are witnessing Iran is
getting involved even more dangerous
than this rhetoric uh in in terms of the
visible Israel is its involvement with
uh Russia and to some extent with China
which we can't talk about what do you
think about the meeting between Harmony
and Vladimir Putin in July
what's that Alliance what's that
partnership
is its surface level geopolitics is
there a deep growing connection
I cannot see the difference between
geopolitics and these deep connections I
see this one and the same why
because I think the experience
40 Years of
distancing from the West
in terms of the Islamic Republic
and the fact that there is a
shelf life to Imperial presence yeah for
any Empire anywhere in the world
so after the terrible experience of of
the United States in
Iraq
and in Afghanistan
pretty much like the British Empire that
after destroys the experience in 56
decided to withdraw from
east of Suez
maybe there is a moment here that we are
witnessing or it may come
that a great power like the United
States sees in its benefits not to get
too much involved into nitty-gritty
things in other parts of the world that
it's not its immediate cancer
and I think that's
part of the reason not the entire reason
part of the reason why we see the
emergence of a new
geopolitical
environments in this part of the world
of which China
Russia
possibly Iran possibly turkey possibly
both of them are going to be part
perhaps Saudis also but I doubt that the
Saudis under the presidency
circumstances although we have witnessed
some remarkable issue in the course of
the past few weeks
where the Saudis giving assurances to
American Administration and then
shifting and getting along with Putin in
terms of the oil production I think it's
more than that event and it's not only
them but also the Emirates are doing the
same thing so what does that just tell
us and that's another
many hour conversation about the the
world industry in in Iran and the the
whole region in emerging this kind of a
world
which was perhaps even 10 years ago
unimaginable yeah that you see now a
great power China that it's going to
remain from what we see around us as a
great power
and Russia adventurous
foolish but nevertheless would remain
a criminal I would say as far as the Its
Behavior in Ukraine
but actually it's a rogue nation that it
attracts another Rogue Nation so Iran
finds itself now in a greater place of
security in Alliance with Russia
in the hope that this would give Iran a
greatest Security in this part of the
world
whether this is whether this is uh
realistic or a illusion
I think remains to be seen I think Iran
China relation makes more sense
uh although if you ask ordinary Iranians
they don't like it
they will tell why should we be tied up
with uh with China as the only uh trade
party with with America because of the I
foolish isolations that you have created
for us because of all the sanctions that
you have created for us the Islamic
Republic
so in a sense it's a very difficult
question to answer probably Iranians
also like to be more on the other camp
but what happens is that in real term
so what surprises me most
is not this alliance with China but it's
kind of becoming
a lucky or subservient
to Putin's regime in in Russia
since if you look at it
Iran
ever since at least the 19th century not
going further back
the beginning of the 19th century always
viewed Russia as the greatest threat
strategically because it was sitting
right at the top of Iran it was
uh it was
uh infinitely more powerful than Iran
has ever been
and Iran for two rounds of War at the
beginning of the century lost the entire
caucuses
to Russia and led its lesson
that
you have to be mindful of Russia
and you have to keep it as an arms
length and that's what was the Iran's
policy throughout the course of the 20th
century 19th and 20th Century up to what
we see now around us which is a very
strange situation
um
whether the balance has changed
in terms of
if this if Russia is purchasing weapons
from
from Iran which was unheard of
it means that there is a new
balance is emerging a new relationship
is emerging
perhaps remains to be seen but uh
if you look at the Historical precedence
it would have been enormously unwise
to
be an ally of
Russia given its long history of
aggression in Iraq see Russians
part of the reason why it's actually
Iran Allied itself with British Empire
was the fact that it was so much afraid
of the Russian expansion
and as such I don't know what's going to
be the future of this relationship there
is a big disconnect between uh
governments and the people and I think
ultimately I have faith that there's a
love across the different cultures
across the different religions amongst
the people and the governments are the
source of the division and the conflict
and the wars and all the geopolitics
that isn't part grounded in the battle
for resources and all that kind of stuff
nevertheless this is the world we live
in so you've looked at the modern
history of Iran the past few centuries
if you look into the future of this
region
Now you kind of implied that historian
has a bit of a cynical View
of protests and things like this
um that are fueled at least in the minds
of young people with hope
if you were to just for a while have a
bit of Hope in your heart and your mind
what is a hopeful future for the next 10
20 30 years of Iran I'm not cynical
I'm trying to be realistic
and I actually may be critical but I
have Great Hopes
uh in Iran's future for a variety of
reasons I actually did write an article
only if the last version of it is going
to go out today
in which the title of it is the time of
fear and women of Hope
which in a sense is this whole
coverage but what this movement means
like that we see today pin May fizzle
in a few weeks time or it may just go on
and create a new
Dynamics in Iranian society that would
hopefully resolve
in a peaceful process of Greater
accommodation and the greater tolerance
within the Iranian society and with the
outside world
and I think majority of the Iranian
people don't want tension
don't run confrontation
don't want crisis
day if 40 years they have suffered
from a regime that have dictated an
ideology that it's
uh regressive
and impractical they want to go back to
a life
in which they don't
They Don't Really create trouble for
their neighbors or for the world
and therefore I would see a better
future for Iran that's for one reason
it's strategically
or geopolitically maybe in Iran's
advantage in a peaceful fashion to
negotiate
as it's the fate of all the nations
rather than commit itself or
sworn to a particular
course of a policy
so there's a give and take as the nature
of politics is the art of possible as
it's been said
so probably Iran is going to be
hopefully moving that direction I think
there is a generational thing that's the
third reason
no matter how much
the Islamic Republic tried
to islamicize the Iranian Society in its
own image
of kind of radical
ideological indoctrination it has failed
it has failed up to
what we see today in the Iranian streets
and the Iranian population said no to it
and I think
if there would have been and they very
much hope there will be a possibility
for a
more open environment more open space
where they would be able to speak them
their views out
Iranians are not on the side of moving
in the extreme directions
they are in the side of Greater
accommodation and the greater interest
in the outside world
and if you look at every aspect of
today's beside the government every
aspect of life in today's Iran we can
see that from the way that people dress
to the way that they try to live their
lives
to the way that you're educating
themselves or by educated in the
institutions
do you see a desire an intention to move
forward and I'm optimistic
well in that struggle for Freedom like I
told you offline
I want my close childhood friends is
Iranian just beautiful person as
families is a wonderful family and on a
personal level is one of the deeper
Windows into the Iranian spirit and soul
that I've gotten a chance to witness so
I really appreciate it but in the recent
times I've gotten to hear from a lot of
people that are currently living in Iran
that are currently have that burning
hope for the future of the country and
so my love goes out to them and the
struggle for freedom I ask it's so nice
of you to say so and I very much hope so
uh there are moments of spare and there
are moments that that you would think
that there is no hope and
uh but but then again something
triggers and you see hundred thousand
people in the streets of Berlin uh that
are hoping for a better future for you
and I very much hope it eventually
emerges even I'm hoping at the same time
that it's not going to be a very strong
leadership as it was the case in the
past
we started with hope we ended with hope
this was a real honor this is an
incredible conversation thank you for
um thank you for giving such a a deep
and uh wide
story of this great nation one of the
great nations in history well that's the
kind of used to say so thank you for
sitting down today well a history that
as I've said in the start of my book
I States the history of a nation which
has learned a huge amount from from the
outside world by force of its geography
it was always located somewhere that
people would invade yeah or come for
trade or something happened to it that
is this diffused culture continue to and
they were not afraid of learning or
adopting as they do right now today
this is a very different society never a
boring moment in its history as you
write about thank you so much this is
awesome thank you
thanks for listening to this
conversation with abasamana to support
this podcast please check out our
sponsors in the description and now let
me leave you with a few words from
Martin Luther King Jr
from every Mountainside Let Freedom Ring
thank you for listening I hope to see
you next time