Kind: captions
Language: en
you and Magnus played a private game 40
games of Blitz in 2010 in Moscow at a
hotel
this sounds and just feels legendary the
reason that I probably should not have
agreed to play this match and Y very
often times reference it as one of the
biggest mistakes in terms of competitive
trust that I made is specifically
because it gave Magnus a chance to
understand my style of Chess are you and
Magnus friends enemies Frenemies
um what what's the status of the
relationship yeah I think with all the
rivalries and chess everybody tries to
Hype it up like everyone hates each
other but the thing is at the end of the
day yes we're very competitive we want
to beat each other whether it's myself
or Magnus or other other top players but
we also realize that it's a very small
world like a lot of us are able to make
a living playing the game as
professionals and as I alluded to
earlier the top 20 to 30 players can
make a living so even though we're
competitive against each other we want
to beat each other there is a certain
level of respect that we have and there
is a sort of Brotherhood I would say
um so all of us are I would say
fronomies
the following is a conversation with
Hikaru and the Gamora a chess super
Grandmaster he's one of the greatest
chess players in the world including
currently being ranked world number one
in Blitz chess
he's also one of the most popular chess
streamers on Twitch and YouTube which
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Channel's name on both as GM Hikaru
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here's to Karo Nakamura
you and Magnus played a private game 40
games of Blitz in 2010 in Moscow at a
hotel
this sounds and just feels legendary
final score was 24 and a half to 15 and
a half for Magnus where'd you find out
the score I'm actually curious I don't
think it was publicly set or it was very
briefly said but it wasn't ever like
mentioned in a serious way so I think
it's a deep dive based on a few links
that started as at a subreddit which is
how all great Journeys start
yeah so this is kind of a crazy story
there this was not pre-planned at all I
remember this quite well
um I went out to dinner that final night
with someone who was actually very high
up within the internet chess club at
that time I went out for a nice dinner I
think I had like a couple of drinks and
it was wine beer I don't know what it
was and I think towards the end of the
dinner somehow they got word of this and
they they relayed the information to me
that Magus wanted to play a private
match now I agreed to play this match
probably I should not have and actually
has nothing to do with like the state of
having been out had a few drinks
anything of that nature but the reason
that I probably should not have agreed
to play this match and Y very oftentimes
reference it as one of the biggest
mistakes in terms of competitive trust
that I made is specifically because it
gave Magnus a chance to understand my
style of Chess and at the time I
actually had pretty good results against
Magnus I think maybe he was up one or
two games but there were many games
where I'd been pressing close to winning
against him prior to that match and so
when I went and played that match there
were a few things that happened first of
all Magnus really started to understand
my style because we played all sorts of
different openings and so I think he
understood that at times I wasn't so
great in the opening and there were many
openings where I would play slightly
dubious variations as opposed to the
main lines and then secondly from my
standpoint the problem that I realized
since we were playing with an increment
there were many games where I was close
to winning and he would defend end games
amazingly well he would defend what our
technical technically drawn end games
but where I would have like an extra
pawn it would be like rook and Bishop
versus rook and Knight say I have four
pawns he has three pawns end games of
this nature now if you aren't super into
chess you might not understand what I'm
referring to if you are you will but
their end games where one side might
have extra material and extra Pawn say
extra two pawns but theoretically it's a
drawn so can you give an example of the
set of pieces we're talking about five
six seven pieces like so okay like a
very basic one would be rook in four
pawns against rook and three pawns so
that would be nine total pieces on the
board four pawns on one side three pawns
on the other side wide but it's on the
same side of the board now this is a
technical draw it's been known for
probably let's just say 70 years roughly
give or take that this is a theoretical
draw no matter the position of the pawns
it's just all the pawns are on one side
of the board so like but like where they
are so it's like let's just say they're
let's just say they're four pawns right
here they're just four pawns and black
is three pawns so your pawns are on H6
G6 and F6 and there are no other pawns
on the board something like this and you
both have Rooks and it's a draw no
matter what the next next like 50 moves
of the game are we know that it's a
drawn end game
um with perfect play and so it was
things like this where Magnus actually
saved I want to say like five or six of
these and I remember it quite well
because I think the score was very very
close up until probably the last like 10
games of the match and then at the end
he started winning he started winning in
Spades but there were a lot of
situations where he was up like one game
or maybe two games in the match and I
had some end game like this and I was
not able to win the end game and so for
me after that match it wasn't even so
much that I lost the match with a margin
I lost by but it was the fact that I
realized how hard it was to beat him
even once you got the advantage and I
think for Magnus he learned that my
weakness was the openings I remember
because I actually I don't remember the
game itself but there was a game we
played in the Sicilian night or um and
he played this variation with Bishop G5
on move number six I'm sure you can you
can insert a graphic later I can show
you and I think it's a type of opening
sicilian's the opening night orifice
variation it was played by Bobby Fischer
the form world champion Gary Kasparov as
well and so we played all sorts of
different openings because of course
it's not as serious it's it's a serious
match but it's not serious where it's
going to count for the ranking so you're
trying to fill out where your opponent
is strong versus weak and so there was
one game I remember this very clearly he
played the bishop G5 variation in the
night or and I think I played E5 or I
played Knight bd7 and E5 which is
dubious it's not the best response and
that's just one example where I was
playing things that were a little bit
dubious and I was not playing the
absolute main line with 20 moves of
theory so I was trying to get outside of
Theory and I think Magnus learned from
that that even though it appeared that I
was very well prepared in in these
openings I wasn't quite at that level
couldn't you have a different
interpretation of you going outside of
the main line that you're willing to
experiment take risks that you're
chaotic and that's actually a strength
not a weakness especially when you're
sitting in a hotel room at late at night
this is past midnight
playing chess I mean why do you
interpret that that's your weakness
because Magnus going forward was able to
figure out the lines where you have to
be super precise you cannot deviate at
all and I got punished out of the
opening in many games so it was like it
wasn't about the night or if the the
opening or the variation specifically
but he knew what my repertoire was and
we'd pick lines where I had to play the
absolute best lines in order to equalize
um or I would be much worse and he was
very effective at doing that but
nevertheless it's pretty legendary that
the two of you you're one of the best
chess players in the world throughout
the whole period still today
that you just
sat down in a hotel room and played a
ton of Chess like what was that like I
mean what's the there's a I think
there's a there is a little here there
is a little video of it sure I mean this
is like epic right how did this video
Exist by the way I think there was one
journalist uh Macaulay Peterson who's
who's able to um film parts of it so it
was it was in a room it was me Magnus I
think Henrik was there I think Macaulay
was there and that was it people can go
on YouTube and watch it's on chess
digital strategies Macaulay Peterson
channel for people just listening to
this there's a a dimly lit room with the
yellow light emerging out of the
darkness of the two faces
I mean and the deep focus here and what
time is this this is must be this is
probably like one in the morning this
was uh I believe the day of day after
the fun this was the day that the final
round occurred and the closing ceremony
so we're playing afterwards I mean are
you able to appreciate the epicness of
this many of my favorite memories are
actually similar to this another memory
that I really have that I recall very
fondly was after the US Championship it
was called the 2005 U.S Chess
Championship was held at the end of 2004
and I believe it's in La Jolla and San
Diego I won that event and after that
that event I was playing Blitz probably
for like four or five hours in the lobby
of the hotel so it's the same kind of
situation where you're just playing for
the Love of the Game as opposed to
anything else of course nowadays
um I think both are Magnus and myself
just playing a dimly lit room like this
would almost certainly not happen there
would probably have to be um certain
Stakes involved for for us to play but
you know if you go back in time these
are the sorts of uh memories and moments
that would happen all the time so is
there a part of you that doesn't regret
that this happened you know I think it
comes back to my general philosophy I
feel like everything happens for a
reason and so because I have that that's
one of my core beliefs like I don't
really look back on it as mistakes I
feel like everything has happened and
things have transpired the way they have
for a reason if I look at in terms of
potentially like World Championship
aspirations I think certainly it was a
big mistake because from a competitive
standpoint Magnus figured out what my
weaknesses were at the time and he
exploited it for many many years in fact
I think if you look at the match I
played against him in the Melt water
tournament at the I think that was in
June or no it was later it's like
September of 2020 we played this epic
match it was the finals of the tour and
it went all the way to the seventh match
Magnus won in Armageddon and in that
match my openings were much better I was
able to match him in the openings I was
not worse out of the opening of most the
games and that made a huge difference
but for many years he was able to
exploit my openings and I mean that's
why the score I mean it's not the only
reason but it's one of the reasons the
score is so long opsided the way it is
is there any of those games that you
mentioned seven games that are
interesting to look at to analyze the
ideas and then you remember that are
interesting to you I mean the whole it
was actually so to set it up and this
probably will come into play in terms of
world championship format
um it was seven matches of four games so
we played a four game match and after
four games Sam up two and a half one and
a half I win match number one then then
it's so it's like you're doing four
matches of four games do you remember
how you won there were a couple of
Berlin games uh in the sixth sixth match
I believe in the seventh match as well
where Magnus actually made some mistakes
and I won some critical games you're
gonna have to explain some Basics here
so Berlin is the type of opening what's
that the Roy Lopez or Spanish uh opening
it actually existed all the way back in
the 60s but it really became popular in
2000 and one I believe it was when Gary
Kasparov and Vladimir kramnik play their
world championship match sparov had been
the world champion for a very long time
I think it was close I think it was
about 15 15 years roughly maybe a little
bit more than that um and he lost the
match because when Gary had the white
piece as far was not able to effectively
get an advantage a lot of those games
were very quick draws and in chess you
want to put pressure on your opponent
when you have the white pieces so kaspar
was not able to do anything with the
white pieces and kramnik was able to
beat him when the colors were reversed
Kramer when I game the groin felt he won
a game and wanted the Queen's Gambit
declined slash nimso variations as well
and um that was the reason Gary sparov
lost the world championship title was
because of this this variation can you
teach me the Berlin opening absolutely
so the opening starts let me just move
this microphone up a little bit starts
with E4
and then it goes E5
Knight F3
Knight C6
yeah there should be five
and now Knight to F6
and uh at which point is this the
standard like this is the the Berlin
yeah this is the Berlin this is the
starting position of the Berlin defense
and white has many many options here now
it's interesting because I did work with
Gary at a certain point and I remember I
I had access to his database and he had
something like 220 files on the Berlin
defense because what happened is as
Gary's somebody who the way that he
learned chess it's very much like there
are certain openings that are okay there
are other openings that are not okay
yeah and so this was considered dubious
at the time and so Gary basically
decided to go into this end game with
castles Knight takes Pawn was the
castling and then game so I'll show you
Knight takes Pawn all these moves are
very uh very forced
he got ponded what does it mean they're
very forced that means like those are
the optimal things that you should be
doing exactly these moves are um I think
they're almost at least for black
they're absolutely forced or else you
end up in trouble you said Knight takes
D4 Knight to D6 oh okay so this attacks
the bishop on B5 got it white takes
black takes back with the pawn in front
of the queen
Pawn takes Pawn
Knight to F5
and then it goes Queen takes Queen what
king takes Queen very aggressive yeah so
you get this position where we're in an
end game
you just ruined uh all the normal
conventions I guess right on the other
hand for kramnik it was quite brilliant
because Gary what he was known for was
opening preparation and getting the
advantages of very tactical very
aggressive player and you're playing an
end game right from the start now Gary
basically thought that this was better
for white and he tried to prove it and
he was unable to prove it I think up
until maybe it was game game nine or
game 11 actually maybe the order wrong
because I think he was white in the even
number games basically he spent four or
five games with white pieces trying to
win this end game and he was not able to
win in fact he didn't even come close to
proving an advantage so he kept wasting
the white pieces in that match and
cranwick basically took advantage when
he had the white pieces and Gary the
black pieces he was able to win some
games
um in very nice style and that was the
difference so that's kind of brilliant
so he had this is a new problem
presented in that match and Gary's gut
says white is better white is better and
so in white I'm going to push with this
position and I'm going to not change
anything from Mash to match I'm going to
try to find a way that this is better so
it's that kind of stubbornness and what
do you think about that like what that
that's that's the way of Chess right
that's not a mistake that's that's the
way you should do it if your gut says
this this position is better you should
capitalize right I think that's an old
school way of thinking and Trust because
before computers it basically is up to
humans your intuition your calculation
process really determined
um whether whether a position is better
and so like if in Gary's time if
openings were dubious they're dubious it
means somebody is better but as we've
learned with computers now even small
advantages generally that doesn't mean
anything and a position is defendable
where you won't lose the game if you
play optimal moves even if the advantage
is like half a pawn for example like
0.50 with optimal play a computer will
still prove that that position you can
hold it and not lose the game and so for
Gary he learned it where like if an
opening's not right you like he knows
it's not correct he has to prove it now
finally towards the end of the match he
tried to switch but it was already way
too late and he didn't have time to to
win with the white pieces he did come
close in one of the later games uh but
he spent the whole match trying to prove
that this Berlin defense is not playable
so this position the computer would say
uh that black is better it would say
that White's very slightly better
because black has moved the king you're
unable to Castle the king and it's kind
of open in the center of the board oh so
wait so stockfish or Daniel would agree
with Gary's intuition yes but at the end
of the day when you go like five moves
deeper in any number of the sequences
it's gonna go to 0.00 which means draw
yes correct and that's a bad thing
because white should be winning well you
want to put pressure on your opponent
when you have the white pieces into any
tournament any match got it so if the
engine says zero zero that means you're
not doing a good job of playing white
correct you should be putting pressure
that doesn't mean you're to win there
are going to be a lot of draws because
the game of chess has Josh Tendencies
but you want to try normally the the
general approach these days because of
computers is you try to put pressure on
your opponent when you're white and when
you're black you try to be solid make a
draw that's the general approach now
when Gary was actually at his Peak it
was quite the opposite Gary was trying
to win games with the black pieces as
well by playing openings like the
Sicilian night or but with modern
technology and I I did a podcast
recently where I also spoke about this
computers are so good and players can
memorize so many lines that nowadays
trying to take risks with the black
pieces it almost always backfires or if
you're very lucky you might make the
draw but you never get the winning
chances so from a risk reward standpoint
you have to play almost perfectly just
to make the draw but you're never going
to have any winning chances where in the
old days generally you might lose the
games but you're gonna have chances to
win as well but now it's very much
um one-sided so a lot of players try to
be very soft this is by the way the c
squared podcast correct yes yeah this is
an amazing podcast so shout out to those
guys I'm glad that they started a thing
that seems to be a good thing and I hope
they keep going with this good thing
that was a great interview that I did
with you in that podcast I talked about
Sicilian night or very aggressive
opening the problem is white is the one
who has the choices
um on after after the first five to six
moves white has the choices what do you
want to do can you show them sure so
it's for example that would be E4
I'll just set it up E4
foreign
Pawn to D6
Pawn to D4 trade
Knight to F6 Knight to F6 and now Pawn
to A6
so this is a night orph um Bobby Fisher
really popularized it and has run run up
to becoming the world champion Gary
played it for probably the last 15 to 20
years of his career so it's a very solid
solid um opening defense what are the uh
sorry to interrupt what are the the
what's interesting about this so there's
a uh for people listening on the white
side there's a couple of nights out and
uh so black has many options um black
can play for B5 here to develop the
bishop to B7
because the pawn on A6 guards the pawn
on B5
you can also play other setups like
potentially G6 and putting the bishop on
G7
okay so bringing uh doing different
things and bringing out you can also
push the pawn to E5 or push the pawn to
E6 okay so there are many different
setups and it's very very flexible but
white is the one who who has the choice
here in terms of what to play and there
are many moves there's this move that I
mentioned before Bishop to G5 which
Magnus played against me there's also
Bishop to E3 Bishop to C4 and now
they're also moves like H3 H4 Rook G1
um even moves like A3 and A4 so they're
basically are nine or ten moves that
white can play here but the move that
white plays sort of dictates the
direction of the game and you have to be
extremely precise if you're black so if
white plays something like Bishop G5
this is very sharp and aggressive but
you can also play something like Bishop
to E3 Pawn to E5 and something like
Knight to F3 here and it goes in a
positional Direction
so the again this is very Advanced these
are very Advanced um sort of setups and
and what I'm explaining is not not at a
basic level but why does it want to
choose as a type of game is it very
aggressive very sharp or both sides of
chances is it something very positional
where if you're black you're probably
okay but you have to play the best moves
in order to equalize or you can end up
worse okay so you're always responding
as black in this situation correct so so
how different are all those different
variations so like with the bishop with
a different you said you you bring out
the bishop to this position to this
position or to that position like how
are those fundamentally different
variations like I I just wonder
from uh AI computational perspective
like a single step yeah well I'll make
it even simpler here if you put the
Knight here it's very positional if you
put the Knight on this Square it's very
aggressive because normally white is
going to push this Pawn uh from F2 to
either F3 or F4 and potentially a pawn
to G4 later so even here based on where
you go it changes whether it's a
positional game or it's a very tactical
it's just those little and that those
are the choices you're constantly making
am I going to be standard and basic
compositional or am I going to be
aggressive and I can actually give you
another example so psychology plays a
big role and in the candidates
tournament which I played in June of
this past year in Madrid Spain I
actually I had the white pieces against
alireza farusia who is a rising Junior
originally from Iran representing France
and I knew that he wanted very
aggressive games so he doesn't normally
play the slain Idol and he chose to play
it in this one tournament so I knew that
he wanted these very sharp positions
where he can lose but he can also win
and so when I played him I intentionally
played this very Asian because I knew
that he was going to be unhappy he
wanted these sharp exciting games and
here I am playing something very boring
where if he plays it correctly it's
going to be a draw but he's not going to
be happy and so he actually did
something dubious because he wanted to
create tension he wanted to create chaos
so you knew by being boring you would
frustrate him and then he would make
mistakes exactly yes yeah so the
ultimate troll at the highest level yes
of Chess Yeah you mentioned psychology
and taking us back to the Magnus even in
2010 the magnus games but Reddit said
that you've spoken about losing to
Magnus being a hit on your confidence uh
is there some truth to that so is there
some aspect about that 2010 match that's
not just about Magnus figuring stuff out
but just a hit on confidence like how
important is confidence at that level
when you're both young and like firing
at all cylinders well it's not just a
problem with me this is the problem
everybody against Magnus because what
happens is is is on a broader level when
you're playing on somebody no matter who
you're playing against but when they're
somehow able to save positions where
they're much worse almost in miraculous
ways the way that Magnus is done against
everybody he's done it against me done
against aronian many times done it
against cramming just about everybody
when when someone's able to save games
it really starts to affect you because
you don't know what to do and more and
more the more and more times that
happens it starts adding up and it just
affects you in a way that it's very very
hard to overcome and I think every top
player has that issue where if they've
played against Magnus more than like
five times they've seen things happen in
the game that don't happen against
anybody else and then psychologically it
becomes harder and harder to overcome it
which is why I think a lot of the junior
players they don't have this long
history and it does affect them as far
as myself directly
um certainly after that match though it
was not the same playing against Magnus
because I viewed him completely
differently too after all those games
where he was saving these these end
games I sort of thing like this guy is
superhuman but you can't really have
those thoughts when you're playing
competitively but in the back of your
mind it's always there and I think every
toddler has that issue is there a way to
overcome that because you have to I
don't know if I'll necessarily do better
against Magnus going forward but I felt
that when I started playing against him
more than just a game here there in
classical chess during the pandemic I
played in these online tournaments it
seemed like every month
um I came very close I beat him in one
event I think I lost and two others and
then the two are final but when I was
playing against them more and more if he
didn't feel superhuman it felt like as
I'm playing more and more and learning
about his style
um that I was doing better so I think
for me the weird thing is that I just
wasn't playing against him that many
games but when I started playing as like
20 30 games during the course of a year
I actually started feeling more
confident because I feel like I can
compete whereas when I was only playing
him like three or four times in
classical chess in the previous couple
of years
it was I wasn't doing great and then you
don't have you don't have those glimpses
of you don't have those moments where
you feel like you're going to be able to
win against them but when you start
playing 20 30 games and you get these
opportunities even if you don't convert
you feel like you have the chances when
you play three or four games and they're
you might lose one draw three you never
have those opportunities and so you feel
very negative about what's going on when
you were able to beat them or not
necessarily win the game but win
positionally something uh what was the
reason like
technically speaking
the matchup between the two of you what
like where where are the holes that you
were able to find I mean the the answer
I think is actually quite simple I think
it's all psychological actually more
than anything else
um
because I didn't it didn't I didn't feel
like I was doing anything differently
but I was also not making the mistakes
that I was making before
um so I think it was more psychological
than on your part versus his part it's
it's very weird because when you when
you think about Chess it's a mental game
um you know but we we all are capable of
beating Magnus all of us but we all have
very very bad scores against him and I
think people underestimate how much of a
role that plays
um and for me when I played him in these
online events in 2020 specifically I
felt like there there was really nothing
to lose which also ties into everything
else that happened um during the
pandemic as well but I just feel like
there was nothing to lose and I felt
like I was playing very freely unlike
unlike before now that's not to say that
Magnus isn't a better player that like
somehow I expect to beat him but I felt
like I wasn't making the same mistakes
that I was making in the previous years
if we dig into the psychological
preparation is there something to your
mental preparation that you do that
makes you successful like what are the
lessons over all these years that you
learned what works what doesn't do you
drink a bunch of whiskey the night
before is there is there some is there
some small hacks or major ones about how
you approach the game it's really hard
sort of in a way because I feel like I'm
two different people I was one person up
until the pandemic as a professional
chess player solely where I earned all
my income everything was derived from
that and from the pandemic on I'm sort
of a different person because that is
not where where I'm making my income
from and so the whole psychological
profile that I had before is completely
different from now uh there's this this
joke about the I literally don't care
the phrase that I've used and
in a sense what that means is not that I
don't care obviously I'm competitive I
want to do well but if I lose the game
or I don't do well in a tournament it's
not the end of the world in the same
kind of way that I felt it was before
because that pressure of needing to
always perform was very very high
um and so I think before before the
pandemic what I would try to do more
than anything is just not think about
the previous game for the most part like
say I had a bad game I'd go out for a
walk that evening just clear my mind
these sorts of things now they aren't
really hacks per se but it's trying
essentially to have short-term memory
loss so
so I literally don't care it's not just
the meme it's a it's a philosophy in a
sense it's a way of being I mean it's
it's basically that yes like I do want
to perform well I'm going to give it my
all but it's not like it if I lose a
game it's not the end of the world that
should be the title of your
autobiography and it should be uh
like uh I I know you're probably
Immortal but if you do happen to die
this should also be on YouTube so uh
Charles Bukowski has uh don't try on his
Tombstone yes which which I think
emphasizes a similar concept but
slightly different more in the artistic
domain which is uh well a lot of people
have different interpretations of that
statement but I think it means
don't take
things too seriously yeah I I mean I I
agree with that completely I think that
um if you if you look at my career prior
to the pandemic I put huge amounts of
pressure on myself because
I really want to be as good as I could
be but but it was the way I was earning
a living and one thing that's very
difficult about Chess is that only the
top 20 maybe 30 players in the world
make a living from the game now you make
a very good living
um in no way am I diminishing chess but
the problem with it is it's not secure
at all so if you don't get invitations
to the absolute top tournaments which
have prize funds from anywhere from
maybe a hundred thousand up to
potentially half a million dollars if
you don't get those invitations it's
very very hard to earn a living you can
go from earning maybe two hundred
thousand three hundred thousand dollars
a year to earning like fifty thousand so
it's very very unstable and I think
um for myself I really put a lot of
pressure on myself and in a way that it
affected me and not not in a good way
not in so in part it was also Financial
pressure so like once you're able to
make money elsewhere it it makes you
more free to take risks to play the the
pure game of chess yeah it makes yeah
exactly it makes it made me it took all
that pressure off and I kind of I'm just
trying to play as well as I can and I
don't really worry like if I lose the
game it's not the end-all be-all and
maybe that's just like psychological
stuff that I should have tried to sort
out before I mean I did it some period
of time like do certain things along
those lines but
um I I just yeah I became became free
and I think it it definitely it was not
about the chess and that's one of those
things that's also very hard because
when I look at myself and when I had
these periods where it seemed like I
played better or improved one of these
periods um was in 2008 where I basically
I dropped out of college I was about
26.50 ELO so I was roughly top 100 in
the world and for the first probably
half part of 2008 I played very little
almost not all I went up to Vancouver I
was living on my own for the first time
and I was not studying that much and
then after that period I started playing
and I actually improved very quickly and
I broke 2 700 shortly thereafter so it
had nothing to do with chess when you
moved to Vancouver uh and weren't doing
much what were you doing exactly oh I
was enjoying nature I was going outside
hiking mountains um like going and
kayaking all these things that I was not
uh that I had not done for many years
I'm glad I asked because I was imagining
something else I was imagining you like
in a dark room drinking and playing
video games and uh okay cool that that's
good that that that's an interesting
break so dropping out of college and
then giving taking a break and then
giving everything to chess in terms of
preparation and so on
uh maybe actually if you can rewind back
to the to the beginning you've said
about yourself that you're not a
naturally talented chess player uh your
brother was but that's really
fascinating because what would you say
was the reason you're able to break
through and become one of the best chess
players in the world having been not a
naturally talented chess player yeah I
think that this applies to actually
chess or any number of sort of basic
games actually for that matter is that
I'm not naturally talented but if I
don't get something I'm I try to figure
out why don't I get it what am I doing
wrong over and over and over again and
um I mean there are many games like this
uh there's this funny game on the phone
I'll just use it as an example there's a
game called Geometry Dash
um now I'm not like I'm not world class
or anything at it it's just a silly
silly little game on the phone that you
play just tap and it goes up and down
um people people will probably know what
that is um but like I played that for
maybe like an hour or so I just randomly
placed for one hour and I was terrible
at it and I kind of forgot about it
about it for a week and then then I came
back I saw it on my phone like okay what
am I doing wrong like why am I not good
at this game so I spent like probably
like 100 hours over the following month
just playing it non-stop over and over
and over again to get to get better at
it and again I'm not like world class or
anything but I'm pretty good at the game
and so with chess is the same thing as
like when I started out it's like why am
I not good what am I doing wrong and I
basically refused to accept that I
couldn't be good at the game and so
um you know at the start I actually I
played for a couple of months I did very
poorly
um and then my parents stopped me from
playing for about six months they just
said no you're not playing your brother
your brother's quite good and my brother
was one of the top ranked players in his
age group in the United States so you're
not playing then after about six months
they relented and they let me play in
the first tournament back I actually it
was four games I was playing against
other kids and I won the first three
games so it was really good and I lost
the form of Checkmate in the fourth game
um which is of course quite ironic
um how did you yeah oh I guess this is
how old were you at this time I would
have been about eight years old seven or
eight so an eight-year-old future top
ranked chess player has so it's great to
know that that somebody has lost to that
Checkmate so it's possible to lose that
Checkmate yes I I remember that game
quite well yeah was it I mean at that
time did you know that that Checkmate
exists obviously I mean I think I
probably knew it existed but I didn't I
was just playing like it's a completely
different world than now if a kid goes
on their computer they can immediately
figure out what are the basic checkmates
all these different things at the time
that didn't really exist you'd have to
find it in a book yeah so this is just a
basic blunder yeah exactly cool yeah so
it's like I came back it was a very good
start and then I Then I then I lose like
this but I stuck with it I improved very
very quickly thereafter
um and yeah it was very straightforward
what was the secret to that fast
Improvement so you said
you said like this very first important
step which is saying like what am I
doing wrong like I have to figure out
what I'm doing wrong but then you
actually have to take the step before
figuring out what you're doing wrong
yeah I think it was just I I just I
played as much as I could like it wasn't
like I was consciously thinking about as
an eight-year-old you're not really
thinking about those sorts of things or
the big picture so I just basically kept
playing as much as I could whether it
was online whether it was against my
brother reading these chess books as
much as I could I just devoured as much
information I was like so you were
studying chess books you were I I was I
mean I wasn't studying them cover to
cover though it's like you just study
certain diagrams certain positions the
openings and stuff like that you were uh
mostly tactics actually openings were
not other than top level chess openings
were not a thing probably I want to say
for players below maybe Master Level in
a serious way until maybe like the early
2000s so for people who don't know chess
what what kind of tactical ideas are
interesting and basic to understand that
once you understand you
you take early leaps in Improvement yeah
so it's things like forks for example
where you attack two-piece at the same
time discovered attacks like checkmates
and again winning like a queen or other
material those are probably two most
important ones
um batteries or batteries and pins
things of things of that nature how many
how rich is the world of and by the way
discovered attacks are when you move a
piece and you you put a king in check to
win like a rook for example or other
material and forking pieces is when
you're attacking two pieces so obviously
the other person can't move two pieces
at a time they're gonna have to lose one
of them okay so how big is the world the
universe of forks and discovered attacks
like
um you know I I I I I myself know so
there's like Knights attacking like uh
what is what is their Forks Knight
attacking like a queen in a rook for
example like a pawn attacking a queen in
a rook um or like a rook in a Bishop
it's innumerable they're I mean but I
will say that I think that with chess
the more of these patterns you see the
quicker you catch them and that's how
you improve I think the the most is by
learning these basic tactical themes at
the beginner levels are you when you're
discovering those patterns are you
looking at the chess board are you
looking at some like higher dimensional
representation of the the relative
position of the pieces you know so
basically something that's disjoint of
the particular absolute position of the
piece but like you're seeing patterns
like this kind of pattern but Elsewhere
on the board like yeah are you thinking
in patterns or in like absolute
positions of the pieces both I think
that at the higher levels you're always
thinking about like you're thinking
about the patterns on one side of the
board specifically but then also what
happens is you play more and more if
you're a very strong player you will be
able to remember say Pawn structures
where the pawns are on certain squares
from games that you've played like 15 20
years ago even potentially so it's a mix
I think a lot of it is more subconscious
than actively thinking about and like
figuring it out like that um the only
thing for me that I definitely am doing
very frequently when I play is is trying
to look at my pieces are they place on
the optimal squares are there better
squares and then once I get past that
like using the basic logic I start to
think about okay what pure calculations
like what are the moves that make a lot
of sense and start calculating direct
moves but one of the most basic things
that I think that I do that a lot of
people actually should do that they
don't do is looking at the piece
placement trying to figure out what
pieces look like they're on good squares
versus bad squares
so am I for each piece asking a question
am I my happy place am I am I like
optimally happy place I think that's
very important like if we look at this
position on the board right now as a
good example who's not in their happy
place on the board right now I think
both both sides are actually pretty
happy right now but the thing is if
you're playing with a black because
there's what is what is a move that
sticks out to you to like follow basic
principles
basic principles probably bring out the
bishop and then Castle the king and
Castle the King right exactly that's
correct and and that's what you should
do that's the best way to play the
position
um now once you do that by the way I
have a vibrating device inside you right
now so I knew that right and so my
rating is 3400 which is what I believe
stockfish is higher it's like 3 800
actually is it 38 I think it is I'm
using an earlier version of stockfish
okay anyway sorry you were saying so
like that's that's very basic but then
if you move the bishop out and you
Castle the king let's just say Bishop B7
play this you Castle
okay so now you've done everything with
the pieces on the king side so what
would be the next set of what's the next
way to try and develop the pieces
so it everything here is pretty strong
except maybe this Pawn I don't know okay
but think about the pieces so by piece I
mean everything except the pawns Okay I
accept the pawns okay uh
probably
[Music]
either either bishop or Knight right on
the other side yeah that and that is
correct you want to bring out the bishop
in the night let's say you go Bishop E6
yeah
all Castle
now you can move the knights either
Square it's somewhat irrelevant but just
move the Knight
I'll just play Knight to C6 what what
was your random movement okay oh well
yeah what's your unhappy place okay so
let me move the queen to just follow
some base principles okay because I want
to bring my Rooks to the center of the
board yes so like in this position
you've pretty much developed all your
pieces they're only two pieces that you
haven't brought into the game
the the queen and the Rock and The Rook
and this you consider to be in the game
because
um I wouldn't say it's it's in the game
but there isn't really a great Square
for that Rook right now
um but in this position you would
probably move your Rook to C8
and then the middle game begins after
that got it so here because now you've
gotten your piece to all the optimal
squares and now you have to look for a
specific plan but you have gotten these
pieces developed
um out of the opening yeah and that's
that's like a very basic thing that I
think a lot of people don't think about
is like what are the optical placements
for the pieces so you're constantly
thinking about the pieces that are not
in the optimal placement as you're doing
all the other kind of tactics and stuff
like that but that's a basic thing that
people can follow actually doing pure
calculations like look moving five or
ten moves in your head that's not
realistic but trying to use basic logic
to figure out what pieces look what
pieces are on squares that look correct
it's something anybody can do what about
looking at the other person's pieces and
thinking about the optimal placement of
them like if you see a bunch of pieces
not in their optimal placement for the
opponent what does that tell you I mean
that's a higher level concept of course
that like I'm trying to give a beginner
example um that is something that I do
think about as well like I try to think
about my opponent's pieces like that
that is basic logic I think a lot of
people these days at the upper levels of
Chess they look at the game as something
of pure calculation and you lose that
human element you're trying to just
calculate all these different sequences
of moves and you don't think about the
the basics
um and it's something it'll be
interesting to see what happens with the
next generation of kids who become very
strong because that is really how they
approach the game they learn with
computers whereas like I learned with
computers at a certain point but I did
not start off with computers from the
get-go so human element still exists in
my game actually Magnus I think has said
this too where he did not use the
computer I think until he was maybe like
11 years old something something around
there and so we have that human element
to our game that I think the newer
generation won't have now it doesn't
mean they aren't going to be better than
us but it's going to be a completely
different approach what do you mean by
human elements just basic logic versus
Raw calculation so it's like anybody now
will use the computer from the time they
start the game and and you use the
computer you look at the evaluations
after the game to see how you're doing
but you if you don't really ever have
those moments where you're just it's you
or it's just you and your opponent one
thing that was great in the old days
before computers simply became too
strong is that you would actually do
analysis with your opponent after the
game and that's very much this two
humans analyzing game it's you and your
opponent two peers and you come up with
these human ideas it's not automatically
run back to your room look with a
computer on oh I should have played this
move and it's just like winning the game
so that is kind of something that has
that no longer exists um in the game of
chess because as I said there's no
reason to analyze with your opponent
after the game other ideas that the
engine tells you that you can't reverse
engineer with logic why that makes sense
and you start to just memorize it that's
good
um yes so in the opening for sure there
are certain positions where moves are
playable and I can even give you an
example actually in this night or if we
can just set the position up a few moves
earlier yeah night over I'm ba Bushman
see it
and just move the king back to Center
Bishop back to f8
and pawn to E7
so the pawn in front of the king just
push back two squares so
like here's an example there's a move
here that nowadays humans will play
which is this move Pawn to H4
um and this this is a move that 20 years
ago if someone showed this move to
Kasparov he would just laugh at them no
matter who you were he would basically
say you're an idiot what is this move
like you're pushing a Pawn on the edge
of the board it does nothing and this is
something that's it's playable but even
if you were to ask me or any other top
Grand Master why it's playable or why
it's why it's a move that makes sense we
wouldn't be able to say why it makes
sense because it doesn't we just know
that it's fine because the computer says
it's fine it's fine or is it good it's
just fine it can it probably like
everything else is equal with perfect
play but it definitely if you're not
careful with black you can be worse for
sure but if you ask me I can't say why
it's a good move I can say okay maybe
I'm gonna expand on the king side I'll
push this Pawn here and push the pawn
forward uh maybe maybe I can put the
bishop on G5 and in some position the
pawn guards the bishop but I can't give
like an actual good explanation for why
it's a move that makes sense because it
doesn't make sense it's fascinating that
young people today kids these days would
probably do that move much more uh
nonchalantly you'll see that a lot more
because they know it's safe at least
right because I know the computer says
it's fine but I grew up without
computers and so to me as you're pushing
a Pawn on the edge it's the opening
phase you don't do things like this it's
just it looks ridiculous now of course I
have worked with computers long enough
that I know like I'm not I I know the
computers are um computers prove that
that everything is fine but still to me
it does feel wrong yeah well I think as
computers get better they'll also get
better at explaining which they
currently don't do at basically being
able to do
of so first of all simple language
generation so a set of chess moves to
language conversion explaining to us
dumb humans of why this is an
interesting tactical idea they currently
don't do that you're supposed to figure
that out yourself like why what's the
Deep wisdom in this particular Pawn
coming out in this kind of way let me
ask you uh a ridiculous question
do you think chess will ever get solved
from the opening position to where we'll
know the optimal optimal level of play I
highly doubt it
um without major advances in Quantum
Computing I don't think it's realistic
to expect chess to be hard solved I just
I don't think that will happen
um but I I don't know it could happen 20
30 years maybe but I think in the near
future it's not not realistic well then
let's go up with the pothead follow-up
question suppose it does get solved what
opening do you think will be the optimal
well everything will be a draw for sure
after for sure after move one yes for
sure absolutely you're absolutely sure
of that yes yeah that's what why are you
so sure I'm so sure because when you
look at the computer games you see these
decisive results it's because they
played the openings are set generally
they can't they can't for move one they
Place set opens like you might play the
Knight or you might play the Berlin
defense normally it's set openings as
opposed to
um as opposed to computers being able to
do whatever they want I just believe in
general when the openings that are
symmetrical like E4 E5 D4 D5 uh the
computers will draw and I think the
optimal opening I think E4 E5 Knight F3
Knight F6 is probably a guaranteed draw
if there is perfect if we have perfect
information and we know that that
chassis solved e45 Knight F3 Knight F6
the Russian or the Petrov defense that
that will be the optimal strategy see so
that's sure of that symmetrical play
is going to lead to a draw but what if
you can constantly as white maintain
asymmetry constantly keep the opponent
off balance so yes E4 then then you're
all you're always doing this symmetry
but what if chess inherently there's
something about the mathematics of the
game that allows
for like that thin line that you walk
that maintains to the end game the
asymmetry constantly that there's no
move that can
uh bring bring back the balance of the
game
yeah I I don't think that exists I don't
think it does so basically I'm saying E4
E5 I think is a draw I think D4 D5 is a
draw C4 C5 I think I think basically
symmetry that's all of it's a draw I
think that's that's why it's a draw so
it doesn't even matter like you're
saying one if it's solved
most openings will be a draw yes I think
E4 D4 C4 and Knight F3 for sure will be
a draw other openings I'm not sure about
but those first four uh possible
starting moves I think chess is a draw
Knight F3 what's the response to Knight
F3
um probably a knight F6 again or
to make it simple
if I play Knight A3 on move one
um black here can also play D5
I'll move one and normally at some point
White's gonna end up playing D4 so the
order of so it's probably going to lead
back yeah all roads kind of lead back
there as well there probably are other
ways which
um where there is play but I think
that's at the end of the day the
Symmetry is symmetry is what's going to
lead lead to like a forced Force
equality or Draw on the game of chess uh
so uh demos asabis is uh the CEO of
deepmind
divine helped create uh or created Alpha
zero he says that he's also a chess
player and he's a fan of Chess and he
says uh the reason
his hypothesis is that the reason chess
is interesting as a game is the creative
quote-unquote tension between the bishop
and the Knight
so like there's uh so many different
dynamics that are created by those two
pieces you think there's truth to that I
mean some of that is just poetry but uh
is there I think it's I think it's
definitely true when you look at the
imbalances that are not like crazy
attacking Physicians like one thing that
Bobby Fischer was really really good at
when he was a world champion is playing
end games with a bishop versus the
Knight now traditionally we think of the
Knight being better than the bishop even
today in end games but Fisher proved
that there are a lot of end games where
Bishop is better than a knight so I do
agree with that statement
it's like the imbalances between like
Bishops and knights and in many
positions you never really know like
there are many positions where a knight
is better than a bishop or Knight and
Bishop are better than uh two Bishops or
like it is all the inbound generally it
is the imbalances though
um between the Bishops and the Knights
or combinations of the two pieces that
they lead to the most interesting
positions so I I agree with interesting
positions what about fun is there like
aspects that you'll find fun within the
game itself not all the stuff around it
but just the the purity of the game I
think for me these days when I see some
of these moves that computer suggests
after a game that I play and I just go
wow that is the beauty for me because
these are not moves that I would ever
consider and when when I then see the
move and then like I might make a couple
of moves to try and understand why that
is the beauty to me is seeing all these
things that just like 10 years ago I
never would have even seen because
computers weren't at the level they're
at today and so the depth and creativity
of what they're saying even even if it's
not like in our language but in the in
the evaluation that's where I find a lot
of beauty oh that's that's fun so like
the the computer's a source it's a
source of uh creative fulfillment for
you absolutely
absolutely it's very humbling as well
because like you know when you spend
your whole life playing a game and you
got pretty good you think you're pretty
good at it yeah um but even like even
for Magnus I think when we look at it
and you see like these things that we've
spent 20 30 years playing this game and
it just it doesn't click and then you
see it it's just like it really is
beautiful
you're known for being a very aggressive
player what's your approach to being
willing to take big risks at the
chessboard
well I think that's another thing I was
a very aggressive player probably until
I got to about this 2700 ELO and then it
kind of my style changed a little bit I
think what it is is I like to play
attacking chess I loved playing openings
like the king's Indian
um the Sicilian night off as well when I
was a little bit younger uh and it's
just like why not try to fight with both
colors try to fight in every game and
win if you can uh try try as hard as you
can now one of the things is as you get
better and better players are also
better and better prepared so you have
diminishing returns when you play these
very aggressive openings like the king's
inning or even even the Dutch which I
played for a while you can only it only
takes you so far and that if then at a
point people figure out what how to
respond to those choices so I still do
play these openings for example I played
a term in St Louis about three weeks ago
and I played a great King's Indian game
which I won against Jeffrey Zhang an
American Junior player so I still do
play it here and there but when you
start playing it every game uh there's
there's a point at which when you lose
these game games you just can't it
becomes too much and I spoke about this
in the c squared podcast where I played
the night orph and then I played Fabiano
caruana a very strong American player as
well and he just blew me off the board
and like four straight against I'm like
okay enough enough of this I just can't
I can't keep doing it because uh the
heat do you think he prepared for that
opening then absolutely because you see
what what have uh
what has my opponent been playing
recently where's their ideas and so I'm
going to prepare for those ideas that
they've been playing with exactly yeah
that's that's what you do and also you
have to be very self-critical because
for Fabiano the night off was the one
opening he did very poorly against but
he worked really hard and he came up
with a lot of different ideas and he
solved that weakness
what's the role of uh you're also known
of having a bit of an ego
what's the role of ego and chess is it
helpful or does it get in the way I
think it's a mix I think there's a fine
line I think you have to be very
confident in order to get to the top I
know some players are very expressive
like myself like Kasparov and others
there are other people like Anon who
don't express it but then there was a
book that I think was released fairly
recently where he basically said like he
he was really angry in his room and he
was like banging walls or doing some of
the chairs uh I don't I don't remember
the exact story but like he was he was
able to in public he kept it very like
very buttoned up but then in private he
wasn't I think you know you have to you
have to have that edge if you don't have
that edge and you don't get upset when
you lose games because you will lose
games along the way then it's impossible
to get anywhere near the top so I think
every top player has that ego or or
extreme confidence that is necessary if
you don't have that you'll never I think
get to the top probably in almost any
field frankly do you have to believe
you're the best to have the capacity to
be the best in the world
yeah I think you have to have that I
think for me it wasn't really ever about
thinking I'm the best in the world it's
about like going into that game that
game whoever I'm playing I believe that
I can beat them or I know that I'm gonna
beat them or I'm better than them that's
for me it was always about the that
whenever I'm in that moment in the game
just knowing that that I can do that I
think that is also another thing that
when you start playing more and more in
these top tournaments you kind of lose
that sometimes because the positions you
have the same opening strategies you end
up with positions that are very drawish
where you reach end games things of this
nature and so it can also make you very
jaded as well
um after you've been up there for quite
a long time well there are times you're
an to someone and you regret it
at the chess board or Beyond yeah so I'm
asking internet questions yeah I mean
this is definitely true I'm not going to
pretend it isn't when I when I was
younger
um I was very angry when I lose games on
the internet
um many of these stories are
specifically from the internet of course
and you know I think I look back on it
and of course I I wish that I'd been
able to like channel the anger
differently basically I think the simple
gist of it is I would play Blitz Games
online and I lost I would get angry at
my opponents instead of getting angry at
myself
um which of course it's silly because
they're playing the game they're trying
to win like why shouldn't they try to
beat you I think for me like I'm not
happy about that when I was when I was a
young teenager getting so angry over
these online games and insulting a lot
of people along the way but maybe that
paved the way to your streaming career I
think for me like I feel like having
that me against the world attitude
though it really fueled me when I was
younger feeling like it was me against
the world everyone hating me or me
hating the world that was very important
I was able to channel that anger in a
way that really helped me improve so
like do I regret it on the one hand yes
of course you don't I think it I think
you don't want to be like that on the
other hand what I've gotten as good as I
am if it was different I'm not so sure
so next well then I'll ask you to
empathize with somebody else who's
currently has a me against the world at
attitude and it's helping you which is
Hans Neiman for several reasons he has
me against the world kind of attitude
well let me ask there's been a
chess controversy about cheating and so
on that you've covered people should
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do you think as we stand now Hans ever
cheated in over the board chest what as
things stand
now at the beginning of October yeah
it's that's a very tough question for a
couple of reasons I think first of all
when people refer to evidence in regards
to whether Han street over the board
there is not I don't think there ever
will be quote unquote hard evidence the
only thing that would ever constitute
that is if he's caught in the act
literally he's caught like using a phone
with an earpiece whatever it might be
that is the only way that there would
ever be hard evidence so as it stands
right now there's a lot of
circumstantial evidence how much of it
is legitimate or not remains to be seen
I know people have questioned the
statistics some people think it's very
convincing some people think it's
complete nonsense
I think I think that right now I'm I'm
very undecided uh but I I do feel that
within the next like three to six months
assuming Hans is able to play over the
board and more tournaments the stats
will make it very clear one way or the
other based on results whether it's
legitimate or not I think I think for me
I would say that regardless of whether
whether you whether like I believe you
cheated or not he is playing at probably
a 20 he's probably at least 2 650 no
matter what regardless of whether he's
cheating or not he's already at that
level which is very very high so I think
the stats will will bear it out in the
next probably I say I said three to six
months probably I would say next six to
12 months um whether something happened
but
I I really don't know do you find
compelling or interesting uh the kind of
analysis where you compare the
correlation between engines and humans
to to try to determine if cheating was
done in part so initially I thought that
that was actually quite legitimate but
as I as I found out much more recently
anybody can basically upload this data
so that whole Theory while it seemed
very convincing at the time it simply
isn't isn't any statistical
um evidence in my opinion now but there
there are games from some of those
tournaments that definitely considering
where his rating was look very
suspicious in 2020 I would say
um again that's not the role like myself
to decide or chess.com that's obviously
going to be up to fide whether they
think that's compelling evidence or not
um I think for me
what I would say from an intuitive
standpoint is that I've been in this
world for a very very long time I've
I've seen mostly Juniors as they've
risen through the ranks Magnus and many
others
um and there's always been something
about them that has stood out to me
that's been like a brilliant game
they've played against someone who's
much higher rated I've just seen it from
all the all those players I never really
saw that with Hans Neiman so it's very
difficult for me to sort of with my own
twice being in this Chess World so long
see things a certain way and then like
something that's never happened before
is happening but at the end of the day
it is still possible it is completely
possible that Hans something clicked at
a certain age and he started improving
in spite of the fact that you know the
statistics look weird in terms of his
rating Improvement so I don't know I I
sort of I think that in six to 12 months
I'll probably be able to say one way or
the other with very certain confidence
like you know whether whether he should
be there or not speaking of Statistics
uh I should ask I'm not sure about this
are you a data scientist right that's a
good one no of course I'm not you know
but it's that's the thing you see you
see all these stats are thrown out there
and you you try to try to understand
what's being said
um but it's it's also very scary because
when you see these things that look very
legitimate and then they're they're
disproven or people say like you're
cherry picking like the dates and all
these other things it almost feels like
you can come to any conclusion that you
want to yeah and that's why I think this
is such a serious issue for the world of
Chess because
going forward if we don't take it
seriously now I think at some point
there is the potential for a much much
larger Scandal do you agree that like
with Magnus I think said that it is an
existential threat to chess like this is
a very serious problem that's only going
to get bigger because it's you're
basically
uh from a spectator perspective from a
competitor perspective or not sure that
you can trust any of the results
that's for sure true when I think back
to the last like five to ten years there
are plenty of top level tournaments that
I played in where there was no security
at all yeah um you just you just go into
the auditorium and play your games and
that was that so I do think it's a big
issue I think it has been a big issue
but the reason it's only coming to light
now is because it features a very strong
Junior player who's very close to the
world's Elite there have been many
achieving scandals before uh there was
this French player Sebastian Fowler
there was this player Igor's Rouses from
Latvia
um there was a uh I think it's from
Belarus or maybe I have that wrong maybe
it's Bulgaria uh borislav Ivanov as well
those are three big cheating scandals
but they were not at the absolute top
levels of Chess which I think is why
um it never became the huge news story
that this is or it wasn't viewed in the
same kind of ways why I think organizers
were perhaps a little bit too LAX in
terms of security so you said
2650 is it possible
that Hans is in fact a kind of Bobby
Fischer level of genius and he's capable
at times of Genius at the chessboard oh
absolutely 100 that that is absolutely
possible I think that's why I think for
everybody in the situation we want to
see what happens in the next six to 12
months because I think it will be very
clear also it's very interesting to me
because there are other stats um from
that 72-page report that chess.com
compiled which in essence says certain
other Junior players basically have
peaked that they're not likely to
improve further so it's also going to be
very interesting when you look at those
like I think it was like 50 pages of
graphs because there are graphs that say
like some of the other Junior players
are done so when we look forward like in
a year or two if those players don't
improve it will also say something about
their methods as well that they've used
to sort of compile this data
yeah I wonder what those Junior players
do if they look at that data so there's
a point where you should look at
yourself like practically
like what what is the actual empirical
data over the past year of how much I've
improved at a particular thing like it's
one thing to kind of tell yourself that
these are the ways I need to improve and
it's another to actually look at the
data and face the reality of it right I
I think also that could have a
psychological effect that is the other
thing that makes the whole Han situation
so tough because if you think that he's
cheated or you're unsure about what's
going on that is another psychological
Factor whenever you play against it in
his favor or against a favor definitely
in his favor because for example if I go
online and play against the computer
let's just say I go play against sawfish
tomorrow I'm gonna play a very certain
type of opening strategy try to keep the
board closed and maybe hope to get lucky
now computers have gotten so good that
generally even that doesn't I don't even
have a chance even with such strategies
but you play differently than you
normally would and so if you're playing
a game against him and there's a move
that looks really weird
um it doesn't seem logical at all that
can also start to affect you where you
immediately make a mistake or you start
questioning yourself you start thinking
well what's going on here is there
something
um something Unbecoming like you start
worrying about what is happening and so
it definitely is uh it is it's a very
tough situation
do you agree with magnus's decision to
Forfeit the match his most recent match
with Hans uh tough question I I don't
in my heart of hearts I feel like there
had to be a better way to handle it than
what Magnus did on the other hand sort
of being in this world of top Grand
Masters having heard these rumors for
two years I think that the fact that it
was blown off and it wasn't treated
seriously I'm not sure if there was a
better option so my heart of hearts I
feel like there had to be a better way
to handle it but in practicality or like
in the Practical world
I don't I think he might have made the
only decision where it became a big
issue
yeah I mean I guess I would have loved
to see just where 100 it's certain that
there's no cheating involved that they
play a bunch of games
yeah I think there was actually an
article that was released today by uh
Ken rogoff who is a grand master at
chess where he wrote this article in the
Boston Globe and he essentially said
that like have Hans and Magnus play a
match and see what his score is because
statistically if it's above a certain
percentage that means he's legitimate
because of course you have security
um if it's below that might mean that
probably means that he's not at the
level
um that he's at so I don't know if
that's a real way to settle it
necessarily
um because also for Magnus to ask him to
play against someone who's cheated I
think for him he just he would never
entertain the idea because it's like why
am I going to play against someone who
cheated so yeah I don't I don't know
it's very tough and you know one one
other thing I would say on the topic
that's really important to note is this
sort of came from from left field for
most people who are in the general
public are very casual chess players but
this is not something that wasn't known
wasn't even on the radar I I think this
has not been said before but there's
there's one of these things where they
talk about how Hans has uh he's he
played better during a period of time
when he games were broadcast versus not
broadcast I actually heard this rumor
two years ago during during one of the
terms he's playing specifically so that
is the thing is that this has been out
there for a very long time and so it's
it's hard because you do believe that
Magus could have handled it better but
if it was two years of these rumors and
nothing was done about it I don't know
and for people who don't understand when
it's broadcast it's easier to cheat
because you can have
it removes one of the challenges of
cheating which is the one-way
communication from the board to the
engine here the engine can just watch
the broadcast and then all you have to
do is then signals right back uh I mean
that's really I've woken up to this fact
actually uh programmed so setting all
the silly sex toys aside
um I have uh
I have a bunch of these devices so like
of this um is the size of a coin and it
has a high resolution vibration that you
can send so you can just have this in
your pocket it's basically what your
your smartphone has ability to uh
vibrate you can do programmatic
communication through anything Bluetooth
is the easiest so like this made me
wonder like
wait a minute how often does this happen
like at every level of play and you said
this only became a huge concern
for uh at the highest level of play but
then how much cheating is going on at
like the the middle level of play
especially when more money is involved
so in the Game of Poker when like is it
really
um it really made me think like the
future will have devices like this much
easier to like you will engineer smaller
smaller and smaller devices that have
onboard compute
that like
like this is the future I mean I I just
it makes me um I think probably with all
kinds of cyber security that means the
defense will just have to get started to
get better even with chess it seems like
the security is very clumsy just looking
the scanning of the recent tournament
one thing you'll see is there a lot of
people are talking about whether Hans
has cheated or not the one thing that
almost nobody is doing is actually like
trying to show how it can be done yeah
everyone's basically avoiding that I
think the single biggest reason for that
is simply because it can be done very
easily at like a weekend term if you
play a weekend tournament where the top
prize is a hundred dollars and the
players are maybe Master Level somebody
could already do this because even in St
Louis now where they have the security
my understanding is the one the um the
non-linear Junction device they bought
costs about eleven thousand dollars
um and organizers if you if you have a
weekend tournament at the at the local
Club you don't have eleven thousand
dollars to spend on such a device and so
that is why a lot of people have been
talking about it but I think it is very
very serious and it's that's why it is
good even if you know aside from Hans
even it is a very important question or
debate to be having at the present
moment well I think I think it's good to
talk about it right to make it so that
the defenses will really step up I think
you could do pretty cheap like the
security pretty cheaply uh but you have
to you take it seriously right right of
course uh and again we'll we'll see what
happens I think that's gonna end up
being on feed a more than anyone else to
try and do that I I don't think asking
the organizers to do it I mean I feel
like fide they are the governing body it
will be on them at the end of the day to
figure it out but it's uh it's gonna be
interesting to see what happens in the
next couple of months will you play Hans
if the opportunity arises well right now
that's not in the near future for me I
think fortunately why not uh well
because the there's maybe only one
tournament that I'm playing in that he
could be playing in potentially and it's
not even set to be happening at the end
of the year there might be like a world
Blitz and Rapid Chess Championship so I
don't think I'm gonna have to make
the most famous super Grandmaster
in terms of online
so it makes sense in terms of Chess is
going through a kind of um
like a serious controversy since it's
not just like
um the drama or something like this this
is in part an existential threat to the
game in terms of how the public
perceives the game yeah so if the story
that lingers from this is chess is full
of cheaters like you never know who's
cheating or not that's not a good uh
that's not good for the game so it makes
sense for a high profile person to to go
head to head how do you think you do
against odds I mean I I think I I think
I would probably beat him in Blitz and
rap but classical is a whole different
question altogether I think in Blitz and
Rapid I would I mean one thing actually
that was very telling in both report and
also hans's interview for all the other
stuff it was said is the one thing he
did say and seemed very adamant about
was the fact that he had never cheated
against me which uh so that was the one
thing he did say that at least according
to the report was truthful so it's
something possibly down the road to
consider
um but I do want to see what happens
with everything else first with fide and
their their whatever they they choose to
do in regards to Hans and Magnus
um and and then see where see where the
smoke stands but I think also one other
thing that is potentially very dangerous
about the whole situation is that I'm
not convinced that fide actually is the
ultimate say in this in that the top
players if they if they feel that he has
cheated over the board even if there's a
report that says he had that Hans has
not cheated top players can still decide
not to play him and sort of override
what whatever ultimate decision feed it
comes to so that's also why it's very
unclear
um you know this term of the U.S
Championship Hans qualified he's playing
the tournament but beyond this there are
no turns where he's automatically
qualified to and so it also is on the
top players to sort of have to reach
some conclusion on their own separate of
feeding so to flip that is there some
part of you that regrets
that the chess community and you
included implied that Hans cheated early
on and I think without having evidence
and that kind of thing as we learn now
can stick
right and it kind of divided the chess
community in part but like
um
I mean I guess I do want to empathize
from from your position can you
empathize with Hans that his reputation
is essentially in part or in whole
destroyed at this point yes I I
absolutely can again I think it comes
down to the specifics of how how it was
handled now as far as I go I was
covering the news and this is what makes
it so difficult for me versus say some
of the other content creators is that I
do in a sense have that inside knowledge
um you know again this is probably this
is also not really public knowledge but
when I went to St Louis to play this
rapid and Blitz tournament before the
sinkhole cup happened where Magus and
Hans were playing there were people who
told me very specifically that they
thought he was cheating other other
players in the event they even gave me
like actual theories about like things
in his shoes things of this nature yeah
so I'm in a very awkward spot there as
well because I know why I mean I I was
like 99 sure why Magnus dropped out
um it would have come out regardless
though it would have come out no matter
what because Magnus was not going to
back down on a stance about Hans and
others would have brought it up anyways
so
it's it's very tough I think if if you
want to look for for blame I think
probably it would be on chess.com
ultimately because they were the ones
who probably could have nipped all this
in the bud at a much earlier stage and
it wouldn't have gotten to where it got
to because they could have released the
online cheating and that would have I
think yeah I think they could have
released that I think also they could
have probably not let him play after it
happened uh the second time as well
because it seems like it happened like I
I don't I think it was like at least
like four or five different times I
haven't looked very very closely at that
but it wasn't just an isolated incident
and so I think if there is blame for
that it's definitely on trust.com which
should uh stop people from thinking that
like my that I'm in some way influenced
by by yeah are you biased because are
you supported in part by chess.com yes I
am I okay so so does that affect your
bias no it doesn't I'm actually quite
independent of them one thing that's
that's interesting um to note is that a
lot of people are under the assumption
that when I do like broadcast of
tournaments or things of this nature
that chess.com is actively helping me
they are not helping me I'm an
independent contractor and so my
opinions are my own and there are no
lists given to me about like cheaters
anything of this nature that has always
been completely separate do they have
compromising video of you that forces
you forces you to uh if you don't follow
the the main narrative that they will
release that video publicly no they
definitely don't
um but yeah I I think I I think when I
look look at it all I feel like if there
is if if people are looking for for
someone to blame I don't think it's
actually Magnus the other day I think it
is it's on chess.com very squarely for
not handling handling it sooner I see
you're okay with like Magnus being
silent for long periods of time well I
don't know why Magnus is still silent
because my read of the situation was
that there was some sort of NDA or
there's some information that chess.com
had that was they they could not release
and so my read of it was Magnus was
essentially saying the same thing
chess.com said where like I can't say
anything about it because of whatever
whatnot but then chess.com releases what
I perceive to be the stuff that they
could not talk about anyway and Magnus
still isn't saying anything so I don't
really understand why Magnus has not
said anything further there could be
legal implications of accusing somebody
of cheating uh over the board that could
be like lawsuits that he just doesn't
want the headaches he just wants to
focus on the game and have fun playing
the game and not get bogged down into
lawyers and all that kind of yeah it's
definitely possible but Magnus could
also take the other route and just say
well he cheated online in 100 games like
I'm not going to play against a cheater
that's very easy to say that's factual
it's proven and that doesn't have to go
into the speculation over the board so I
I find it a little bit odd that Magnus
hasn't said anything further at the same
time it's also kind of peculiar because
magnus's reputation is also kind of in
in tatters in a sense like a lot of
people are not happy with them for what
he's done uh but still he goes and plays
this tournament in this European Club
Cup Tournament and he's just gaining
like 10 points as though nothing has
happened so I I mean I I don't I don't I
don't really know where magnus's head is
at because like if I was in that
situation and everyone's coming after me
for making such an accusation I don't
think there's any way I'd be I would be
able to play chess anywhere near the
level that Magnus is playing at so the
whole situation is yeah it's very
strange yeah I wonder where his mind is
at that he's able to play at that level
uh let me uh before I forget let me ask
you a technical question about cheating
for at your level at like not your level
but at a very high Grandmaster level how
much information do you need this is a
technical question it's like so for me
in terms of Morse code and all those
kinds of things I would need
the full information so I would need
probably in order to make a move
just let's think about a very simple
representation I would need two squares
or the first to to designate which piece
and the second where the piece is moving
that's probably the easiest
what's the smallest amount of
information you need to help you
basically like a buzz in a critical
position that would be and what would
the buzz say it would it basically would
be something like one Buzz means the
position is is great and two buzzes
means the position is completely it's
completely equal or there's nothing
special in the position oh that's simple
just to know that it's great we'll tell
you what it will tell me that like my my
in with my intuition like there are many
times I've played Blitz online I'll say
something I'll say something along the
lines of I can feel like there's
something here like intuitively I feel
like there has to be a good move or I'm
probably winning there's something there
but I don't know that and most of the
time I'm actually right about it like
well after the game when I look with the
computer usually it's like oh I should
have played this this move and it would
have given me a big advantage or I would
have outright won the game so if I just
know whether there's something there
that's good enough that means it's worth
worth it to calculate here yes and and I
can follow that intuition probably to
because what what normally is going to
happen in such a situation is there
probably are two moves or three moves
Max that you're gonna to consider in a
really critical position like if I feel
like there's something there there are
two to three moves so if I know
something is there I will I'll be able
to figure it out if I know that the
position is very good
okay so one Buzz for a good position for
the current position I just need to know
I just need to know whether whether like
there's a there's something really good
the position is really good or it's it's
just like an equal position or it's just
normal current position not even future
moves just the current position there is
a lot of Promise here yes okay uh what
about the reverse like something's bad
so you're saying if I'm if I'm in
trouble in a game yeah and I and I I'm
in the same situation
um so I'm in trouble in a game
it's it's probably a little bit more
it's probably like I would say three two
to three times where I would need to
know the source of the trouble yeah I
would I would need to know yeah I need
to know like is there like one move
that's good or there's there's more than
one move again how you extrapolate that
well wouldn't it be useful to know the
information that you're now in a
position where the other person could
create a lot of trouble for you so we'll
find that like it's out there find it
like if you look at magnus's games there
are a lot of situations where the
position is equal but there's or it's
equals one move but only one move if you
don't find that one move you're
significantly worse a lot of times
that's the case so like if I if I can
somehow note there's like only one move
where I'm okay I could figure it out
yeah yeah that's so that's one move is
significantly better than the rest
I mean I could give you like a perfect
example as I played a game in the
Canada's tournament last round against
ding Loren from China and there there
were many times where it was completely
fine for me but it started drifting I
started making some mistakes and I was
worse but there was one last moment
where I think I had one move where I
would have been able to draw the game
quite easily and every other move I was
significantly worse and I did not find
that move and I lost the game but if I
had known it would have been nice to
have a buzz right then yes I would have
known
uh who do you think is the greatest
player of all time you've talked in from
different angles on this uh Magnus
Carlos and Gary caspara Bobby Fischer
many others can can you make the case
for each
um can you make the case for you no I
mean I can't make the case for me be
serious I know I know there are a lot of
people who want want that kind of like
me to give off some kind of ego like
that but no um obviously I'm nowhere
near the conversation I I actually on
that note I would say also I know people
wanted to know if I'm the greatest
player to never have played for the
world championship or to have not got
not become world champion I don't think
that I'm actually anywhere near the top
of that conversation I actually think
Lavon aronian tops that conversation by
a big margin simply because he was
number two in the world for a very very
long time and he never even got to the
match so as far as world champions and
who's the goat I think
um
I think Magnus is the goat simply
because he's playing the best chess
by by a bigger margin he has the highest
ELO of all time uh on the other hand
chess is a game where you know you build
upon you build upon the Giants of the
past we learn we learn from them and so
you can definitely make the case for
Gary as well I mean he's the number one
player in the world for 20 plus years a
lot of opening strategies he came up
with in our people still play them today
Bobby I'm not so sure you can really
make that case because he was he shot up
really quickly but he was the world
champion for a very short window of time
and then he quit the game as soon as he
became world champion so I don't really
feel like you can put Fisher in that uh
in that conversation simply because he
didn't have that longevity at all he was
he was up there for a couple of years so
I would say it's probably Magnus but I
understand people can also say Gary's
Gary's the best player ever
um remains to be seen but I think if
Magnus is number one for probably
another let's say another three to four
years I don't think there's any debate
at all
can you break down what makes him so
good
we've already talked about different
angles of this and I would also
uh try to get the same from you because
we talked about early Hikaru like I'd
like to uh talk about that folder but
first Magnus what makes Magnus so good
what are the various aspects of his game
that make him so good I think for Magnus
he he just you know that in the end game
in the end games if you get there he's
just he's not gonna blunder that's the
first thing so you know if you reach an
end game he's not going to make a
mistake he obviously plays great
openings and there's just really no
defined weakness that he has there's no
weakness that I can think of very
specifically
um many there are many times where
players that actually out prepare him in
the opening phase but as soon as they're
on their own and they have to think very
often times they'll make mistakes
um so there's just no weakness for
Magnus really no weakness well unlike
say Casper like kasparab on the other
hand there there are very clear
weaknesses
um in his game like kramnik exploit them
first of all very I don't want to say
like ego is the right word but like very
stubborn believing that his openings
were infallible that he could just win
he could just prove an advantage and win
the game out of the opening like against
kramnik when he ultimately lost also
generally not a great defender either
very strong tactically but if he was in
positions that were defensive he would
make mistakes and lose in end games like
he did in one of those games in the
world championship against kramnik so
there were very clear defined weaknesses
in Sparrow's game
um whereas like magnets are just they're
no clearly defined weaknesses maybe
maybe he doesn't like being attacked
maybe that's the one thing he likes King
safety and he doesn't like being
attacked but that's not something that
you can easily do whereas say uh if
someone's very tactical and they're not
a strong positionally that is something
you can def that will happen quite
frequently in games you can steer games
a certain way doesn't mean you'll always
get there but that is something tangible
whereas King safety that's not something
tangible at all it's very very hard to
attack someone uh based on unless they
play certain style of openings do you
think Garrick has of reflecting in your
comment would agree like what is it
about his relationship with with
kremnick that was so challenging I mean
I think this is kramnik understood him
actually one thing that's funny speaking
of Kasparov is that I think it got under
her skin like when I worked with him
kramnik actually played a certain style
very like very aggressive very sort of
risky opening play during the time when
I was when I was working with Gary and I
know that he annoyed Gary because he's
like why couldn't kramnik play like this
against me because I think Gary Felton
did that against him he would have just
blown him off the board and had had many
great victories so I think it's cramic
understood Gary they had worked together
I think during during the late 90s I
think Gary actually was very useful or
very helpful in terms of cram of getting
a spot on one of the uh Russian chess
Olympiad teams in in the mid 90s so I
think it's just kramnik understood him
very well and Gary just could not he
just he couldn't figure it out I think
also another things coming back to
Psycho psychological part is that
kramnik actually beat Kasparov in many
games in the king's Indian defense
Kasparov played the king's Indian
defense for many years and they started
losing like four or five games in a row
in it to kramnik very similar to what I
mentioned about the silly night orphan
Fabiano and Gary gave it up he started
switching to playing the grunfeld
defense and so I think that also
instilled some psychological fear as
well because Gary was he was the boss in
openings no one could compare to him
what makes you so good what uh what
What's the breakdown of the strengths
and weaknesses
so that's I think probably my biggest
strength is that I'm a universal player
I can play pretty much any opening
strategy doesn't doesn't really matter
um beyond that I think it's mainly that
I don't really make many blunders I
don't make blunders unless I'm under a
lot of pressure generally so that I mean
I know I'm I'm oversimplifying it's not
as as simple as does this apply to uh to
Blitz as well I think it's much more
applicable to Blitz in particular
because my intuition is very good so
when I'm making less blunders with
limited time on the clock my opponents
actually make a lot more blunders that
that's why I think it's much more
pronounced in Blitz than it is in
classical chess because in Blitz when
you're down to like 10 seconds uh in the
game both players have 10 seconds my
intuition is just better than theirs I
mean Magnus maybe not so clear but like
if you look at other players say Fabiana
car one a very strong player when he
gets down to 10 seconds or in these
these uh these situations he almost
always makes a blunder almost always um
so I'm just more precise I make less
blunders and that that's really the the
effect is much more dramatic Blitz what
do you think that intuition is like uh
sorry for the kind of
uh like almost philosophical question
what what is that is that calculation
or is it some kind of weird memory
recall what is that like being able to
do that Short Line
prediction I think that's just playing
so many games online and there's some
kind of subconscious field that I have
because when you're that low on time you
can't calculate it's just you have to
look you just have to figure out what's
the move you want to play is no
calculation and just go with it and I
think just playing so many games
probably I mean I'm guessing I've played
over 300 000 games online and I think
just playing all those games it's it's a
feel there's there's no tangible way uh
that I can't put that really into words
it's just a feel what do you Visual and
we should say that you're I think
currently the number one ranked Blitz
player in the world you have uh been for
a while you're unquestionably one of the
greatest so the classical rapid and
Blitz you're one of the best people for
many years in the world okay but you're
currently number one Blitz
um
so I I'd love to kind of for you to dig
into the secret to your success in Blitz
is it as you're saying that intuition
being able to when the time is short
to not make blunders and then to make a
close to Optimal move I think it's
generally that
I'm able to keep the games going no
matter what until we're low on time I'm
always able to do that yeah like if we
play a game with three minutes like
there are games I will just win win very
quickly but a lot of games between top
players players have to think you have
to use time and in those final critical
stages I just don't blunder I just don't
blunder really at the end of the day
that's that's really the only difference
because everybody's very very strong
but it's sort of like who is the who is
the better like brain who has a better
like CPU or for lack of a better way of
putting it it's like who makes a split
to SEC Split Second decisions the best
and uh I do think that I'm extremely
good at that in a way that almost nobody
else is that that really is the only
difference is that those Split Second
decisions because you can get a worse
position but again if you keep the game
going players have to use a time when
you get down to those final 10 15
seconds uh I almost always end up
winning in those situations what are you
visualizing like when it knows when
you're doing the fast fast calculations
what what is it um it's basically you
look at a move and you see like when
it's like five seconds or ten seconds
you play a movie you just make sure that
it's not a blunder you just look make
sure it's not a blender and you just go
with it and the first part though is the
feel so it's like I see this move and it
looks right I don't know why it's right
I can't put that into words but it looks
like the right move and then I look very
for like a split second see as long as
it's not some kind of blender and you
just play that move is there a bit of a
tunnel vision are you able to understand
the positions of all the other pieces on
the board or are you just focusing on a
very specific interaction it's just Phil
it's really just feel it's like this
move feels right and so I play it when
you when you're at that stage of the
game it's it's like as long as it's not
a blunder and it just that it's just
that feel there's there is no way for me
to put that in and that feel
like empirically does result in low
probability of blunder for you yeah it's
like you don't blunder even though there
could be like you don't forget like a
random piece that was like very very I
mean it does happen of course but very
rarely and I mean I've done it on stream
many times like it's just you you go
with the move that for whatever reason
like it just intuitively whether it's
from playing hundreds of thousands of
games on the internet
um or just that that experience like it
you just intuitively can can feel like
the move is right and so over those 300
000 games
played over the board online all kinds
of variations what's a game that stands
out to you as particularly one you're
proud of or or maybe what's the Hikaru
mortal game or a strong candidate yes
they're two games there's a game that I
won against Boris gelfond
um in 2010 where I offered a queen stock
I think on five consecutive moves second
sacrifice a sacrifice the queen yeah yes
so coming through with the lingo can you
take me to that game this is there's one
sequence in the late middle game where
um
it's funny because I actually I I think
I because I remember I tried to show
this game to Peter actually Peter till
and I confused the move order right in
the late middle game so I don't want to
do that again 2010 yeah 2010 it was yeah
what what kind of opening is this that's
the king's Indian defense
so the knights are out
what's with the bringing the night back
yeah I have the black pieces and you
want to push the pawn the uh the make
room for the pawn yeah normally in the
king's inning you try to is sort of like
storming with the pawns uh on the king
side where the white king is seriously
now I push and I start pushing all my
pawns forward are you happy with this
position with all the Pawns in diagonal
like this with the knives behind it this
looks this is this is no this is this
nowadays this is very well known as a
standard Theory
um but at the time I I the reason that I
was aware of this is because I played a
tournament I think in Montreal I think
it was Montreal like the year the summer
before and one of my friends had
actually played this variation with the
black pieces so I was aware of it and it
seemed very dangerous but from the black
perspective yeah I feel like it's very
hard for white to play very hard for
white to play it felt feels like you're
getting attacked your king you see the
black pawns are coming down towards the
king and it's very hard to defend and
also a lot of players don't like being
attacked generally you try to avoid
positions where your king is under Fire
which comes back to what I said about
Magnus as well like he doesn't like it
when his King is under Fire and so
therefore
um You Can't Always Get that because
White had to play along to get to this
point as well if white didn't want
something this uh this double-edged and
just complicated he could have avoided
it so is the is the is the black Bishop
also a threat are you like yeah the
lights were Bishop in the king's Indian
is uh vital to any attacking possibility
you're always likes you don't want to
lose that Bishop if you can help it got
it and so the he's bringing out the
knights
is there a particular moment that's
interesting to you here so also keep
going yeah there's so I play Rook F7
this is all all standard yeah so I take
take now this is actually this is an
exception to the rule normally the
king's Indian you don't want to break
this Pawn chain from the these are the
four Pawns in a row The Connect Four
why'd you break it because it's an
exception where you can do that there
almost are no variations in the king's
inning where you do that you almost
always Retreat the bishop
um to guard the pawn the bishop to fa
you break the pawn chain because it's an
exception to the rule
um because you're not actually worried
about the about white being able to push
the pawn to D6 here it was probably the
best game I ever played so it keeps
going
A5 G4 yep
no no no the diagonal's there again that
that's that that looks threatening right
like white Beasley is trying to guard
the king he's gonna Retreat this Bishop
from C5 to G1 as you'll see in a c in a
second actually not quite yet yeah it
goes now he goes here and so he's trying
to guard his King with the bishopon on
G1 uh but I'm able to keep keep
attacking here and the next is there any
case to be made for you to take the pawn
here uh no that would actually be a
mistake I mean it's very high level but
it's a mistake because white will
actually not recapture the pawn and and
uh I it yeah this is a very high level
oh also the pawn is the pawn like the
pawn will be ends up in front of the
king yeah it stops white from being the
white king from being attacked basically
oh interesting so your Pawn is stopping
the their King from being attacked cool
so yeah so the pressure continues from
you right and then I sack is it is that
off wait wait what's the sack oh the
Knight takes Pawn Yeah is this uh
what are the strengths and weaknesses of
you
throwing the Knight well basically I'm
gonna get this uh I'm destroying the
protection in front of the white king
the white pawns there and willing to
take risks but please I basically want
to open up the king and try to check me
if I don't check me and I'm probably
gonna lose the game here in the center
of the board so yeah and now there's
some very nice moves after punch Pawn I
take this because now what takes the
queen I push the pawn forward on his
checkmate
uh so give me a second so
your night is take you're losing pieces
ever left and right right and you're
pushing the pawn forward check
he takes the pawn
uh The Rook check
so just check check Non-Stop and uh same
theme though I keep going for this
checkmate with a pawn or a Pawn on
the Square in front of the king
you see the queen is still hanging in
fact I actually sacked the queen again
he never took the queen he couldn't take
the queen because it'd be Checkmate got
it
so constantly and that's what you mean
by sacrifice he didn't actually yeah
yeah he couldn't take you to have gotten
checkmated but anyways Smoke Clears and
I'm up material here and and I win this
game so this is the game that I would
say it's like why why why did it stand
out I mean it's beautiful but just the
fact that
um it's mainly that I was able to offer
the queen sacrifice so many moves in a
row you almost never have that
opportunity
um and actually normally the games
you're going to consider your best
involve sacrifices and if you can
sacrifice the queen that makes it uh
very memorable there's just this
constant theme of uh this this one
Checkmate idea how often do you
play with the sacrifice of a major piece
like how often do you find yourself in
that position pretty rare because
players tend to avoid these sorts of
situations players don't like games that
can go either way so when when like both
players have to sort of cooperate you
have to want that kind of game in order
for that situation to arise and a lot of
games at the top neither player wants to
go into that situation for the most part
so you don't really have those
opportunities
nevertheless stockfish loves those
opportunities the yeah the sacrifices
well that's one thing also that we're
starting to learn more and more is that
stockfish and the other programs they
don't care about pawns you can sacrifice
one pawn two pawns three Pawns in a lot
of cases if the rest of your pieces are
very active and that's something that we
kind of knew on a basic level about the
initiative is what we call it in chess
where like you'll give up material but
your pieces are very well placed but we
didn't realize just how how important
that is and computers will do that all
the time now all the time and even
actually like they're in this variant
Fisher random is another another variant
where you arrange a piece on the back
row they will gladly sack Rooks for
Bishops or for Knights all the time all
the time and so you take from that
material imbalance or the material you
give up doesn't matter as much as having
this this attack or having this piece on
certain squares well as long as you can
hold on to the attack right and
computers can't but yeah it's also very
tricky because when we as humans
sometimes you'll look at our opening
variation and you'll see something like
this and you want to do it in a game but
the problem is we don't know how we're
supposed to follow it up afterwards yeah
and so if you do that and you don't know
how to follow up afterwards very
oftentimes we'll make mistakes we'll try
to look in a human way and then of
course all you end up losing in the long
term because you've given up too much
material so it's a very double-edged
sword but that's why it's dramatic and
what people love those kinds of
sacrifices because you're putting it all
in the line what's the what's the other
game
oh it was a game also with a queen
sacrifice um it was a game against this
uh polish player Michael krasenkow uh it
was played in Barcelona in 2007 I
believe it was I also I sacrificed the
queen for one Pawn to just bring the
king out into the middle of the board
and you actually sacrificed it or yes I
did sacrifice I took a pawn
yeah absolutely
and you're again black yes yeah this
game you can just skip forward to about
like the 20th move roughly what's the uh
what's the opening uh this is I think
it's like a Catalan it says neocaton so
yeah it's basically a Catalan opening
generally very slow you know Catalan
declined yeah
yeah and now here I sack the queen for
the pawn
or no sorry take the Knight first sorry
Knight C6 keep going so
by the way the pawn structure here is a
mess or is missing yeah if I take the
knight uh you take the Knight with a
rook yeah uh what's the discovery my
Queen's under attack now
so when he takes the Knight The Rook on
B1 is attacking my queen got it so they
just get got it no yeah you you yeah you
throw your queen into the middle
um check check the king
wait a minute that's not right yeah it's
one Pawn it's it's a queen for a pond
for a pawn yeah and the King takes your
queen
what was the thinking here well crazy
magic the king is King is uh King has to
go up the board and the king is very
vulnerable in this position see but
you're gonna have to keep checking here
then yes uh Bishop checks King
Rook checks
night checks did you see all of this
ahead yeah I mean I had not all of it
but I I figured there had to be some way
to win here with the King too many
attacking pieces in your end that could
duel well it's just basically the king
the only piece that can sort of guard
the king is the queen on D1 that's the
only piece if I can just keep checking
I'm gonna be able to win win here so it
goes there and now I think I played yeah
I played this move oh no check because
I'm threatening to move the Rook over
one square and make a Checkmate got it
and then the rule was that the Rook
takes your knight
and then you take it right back with a
check
now I still want to scoot The Rook over
to check check on the H6 Square the dark
Square
I think they resign here are they making
well he resigned yeah hey did resign
here yeah because I just moved the Rook
over to that dark Square in front of the
pawn and that would be Chuck mate
dark Square in front of the pawn so 86
yeah because now the bishop covers the
light square is there something he can
do to to mess
um not really there I don't think
there's nothing with a queen Chuck mate
nothing with the queen I guess he's
gonna lose the queen yeah I think it's
just actually Force Checkmate here in a
couple of moves I don't think there's
any way to stop it even if he loses his
Queens yeah it's it's a force checkmate
fascinating and so like that you you
can't purely calculate but you can have
some intuition also I think what it is
is in such situations you know that
there is at least a draw I could always
just check him with my Rook if I wanted
to to make a draw so that also gives me
some margin where if I calculate after I
play the move and I calculate it doesn't
work out I can still make the draw
are you uh I mean for fun dude do you do
the sacrifices of this sort when it's
not the serious competitive uh online
events or over the board I do actually
do this quite frequently and I wish
there were more opportunities but top
level chess it's it's become harder and
harder because due to computers
everybody's very very well prepared in
the opening they know the first like 15
to 20 move sequences and no matter what
you do so it's very the the room for
creativity is less and less which makes
it which means you have less less of
those types of games I think you played
uh Levy Gotham chess with the with the
Without a Queen
was that a thing I think that was a
bullet game yeah the one minute game I
think so yeah is that an actual thing
that you can pull off like would you be
like Levy or yeah can somebody like Levy
and bullet maybe I can win like 50 it'll
probably be what's bullet What's the
timing on the whole game one minute for
the whole game okay what about I mean
how much do you miss the queen if it's
gone against the international master
you know in a bowl game like I said
maybe in bullet I can maybe score 50 in
in a in a Blitz game or anything
anything slower maybe 10 maybe one out
of ten I can win maybe one out of ten
yeah
on the topic of goat let me ask uh about
Paul morphy
how good was he uh Reddit asked me to
ask you about this and and why is he a
tragic figure in chess yeah so Paul
morphe was the best player in the world
by a bigger margin probably than anyone
else in recent modern history he was I
would say roughly using today's ratings
around like 2 400 in my opinion and the
other best players were maybe around
2000 or 2100 at best so he's the best
player by a bigger margin Fisher for
example I think it was about 170-ish
points um better than Boris baskey but
morphy was 300 plus at least now by
modern standards he would probably be a
very strong I am uh which you know is
isn't saying a whole lot but at the time
no one was even close so I don't think
you can put him in that category of like
best ever simply because he was not the
best player for a long enough period of
time
um as far as why it's tragic it's very
tragic because he essentially quit chess
there was no competition for him uh if
you think about like Magnus talking
about the world championship and feeling
like it's not competitive enough for
morphe there was no one who could even
beat him probably in individual games so
he ended up quitting chess I think he
was sort of like a lawyer kind of but he
spent probably the last 15 I think last
15 20 years of his life just doing
nothing now I have actually seen his
grave in New Orleans I have been to
where where he lived I think it's now
Brennan's if I'm not mistaken or
something like that
um so it's very tragic that there was no
one who was competitive with him at the
time
um as far as best ever I don't I don't
think you can say he's the goat but I
still think he's in the top 10 if we're
using a criteria of players who were
better than their peers by a big big
margin
so what do you think about the world
championship and what do you think about
Magnus stepping down do you still see it
as the height of chess
I I still think that there is Merit in
having the world championship the way it
is at the same time the game is always
evolving and one of the things that has
changed a lot in recent times is you now
have a lot more Blitz tournaments and
also rapid tournaments in the past
classical chess was the golden standard
there were that was the only thing that
mattered but in the last probably 10
years slowly but surely there are
probably as many rapid flash Blitz
tournaments as there are classical
tournaments now maybe it's not quite 50
50 but at the top level at least it
feels like it's getting very close to 50
50. and in terms of the world
championship I feel that the biggest
issue is you have too many draws the
games can be exciting but the games
inevitably end in a draw and the single
biggest reason is because players have
about six months or more to prepare for
the match so for example the Canada's
tournament which I just played it was in
June and July it ended I think around
July 5th the world championship match
will probably be in February of March so
that's you know nine months and when
players have that much time to prepare
they are not going to have any
weaknesses in the opening phase of the
game and so both players are likely
going to be very solid you'll have a lot
of draws and in many cases it might come
down to tie breaks Magnus in fact in two
of the matches both against karyakan and
against Carolina he had to win in Rapid
tie breaks so I think for Magnus he just
doesn't feel like the format is right I
think he feels that there's just it's
too long too many draws he doesn't get
to play Creative or exciting chess and
that's why I think he pushed so hard for
a change in the format I don't know what
the right change would be but I do think
that the format is becoming a little bit
antiquated with all these classical
games if you don't want to change the
format the one suggestion that I've
mentioned before and I think it's
probably still valid is that the match
should be held maybe one month after the
Canada's tournament to determine the
Challenger it's held one month after
that event that's probably this the only
way to keep the format as it is where I
think both players have time to repair
but it's not something crazy because
when you compare the candidates to other
classical tournaments let's just say
let's just say St Louis I played I
played there recently there was the I
played the rapping Blitz but there was a
singfield cup
um this was I think like September 10th
something like that the point is players
probably came in and had a week or two
to prepare for that tournament now
there's the US Championship players had
a little bit of time to repair you play
the event normally players don't have
these long breaks where they can prepare
for very long periods of time so they
are very well prepared but you still
have a lot of exciting games because
that window of preparation is so much
smaller but you had uh you're pretty
close given how things rolled out to
heaven having the opportunity to compete
for the World Championship uh hence the
the copia meme which I still don't quite
understand
um
are you and Magnus friends enemies
Frenemies
um what what's the status of the
relationship yeah I think with all the
rivalries in chess everybody tries to
Hype it up like everyone hates each
other but the thing is at the end of the
day yes we're very competitive we want
to beat each other whether it's myself
or Magnus or other other top players but
we also realize that it's a very small
world like a lot of us are able to make
a living playing the game as
professionals and as I alluded to
earlier the top 20 to 30 players can
make a living so even though we're
competitive against each other we want
to beat each other there is a certain
level of respect that we have and there
is a sort of Brotherhood I would say
um so all of us are I would say
Frenemies I think that's the simplest
way of putting it what do you love most
about Magnus Carlson as a human being as
a human being I think it's it's very
similar actually to use a comparison to
tennis and Roger Federer in that it
feels like with Magnus everything comes
very easily it's for example we've seen
the situation with Han's name somehow
it's rolled right off his back and he's
playing Amazing chess in this in his
latest event
um so it's it's really how easy he seems
to make it look and I know like because
tennis is a sport that I've played a lot
I followed it very closely I remember
hearing Andy Roddick say that this about
Federal words like somehow he handles it
all like there's no pressure he makes it
look easy and how does he do all that
and I feel the same way about Magnus
where it seems too easy because I know
for myself when I'm playing these games
like they're stress the pressure and for
Magnus it just you don't you don't ever
see that now I'm sure it's probably
there but we don't witness it so that's
what I would say is just how easy it is
it was sad to see Federer retire I don't
know why yeah just greatness in a wooden
Lionel Messi will retire it'll also be
sad because there's certain people there
um
just singular right in the history of a
sport yeah I don't know if there's going
to be another messy I don't know if
there's going to be another Federer
yeah not for a long time is the greatest
ever would you say is he up there he's
definitely up there I mean I I grew up
as like more of an adult fan just
because actually like I felt like Nadal
it never looked easy it was the exact
opposite like for an adult it feels like
he's always he's running after every
ball he's exerting himself it looked
really really hard and like for me uh
since nothing really came easily for me
in chess like I kind of I can relate to
that more
um but at the same time like you know
especially when Federer start losing
more and he seems more human I started
really liking him him more as well but
um I think Federer he changed the game I
don't know if he says the greatest ever
but the game changed forever because of
him yeah there's certain people she said
lasting impact Sampras uh Agassi
everybody okay uh who wins in a chess
boxing match between you and Magnus
probably Magnus just because he's he's
taller than me I think also reach he's
taller is more reach yeah but I I think
he I think he would win question from
Reddit in what sport do you think you
can beat Magnus 10 out of 10 times I
think I could beat Magnus 10 out of 10
times in tennis I mean I took lessons
for eight years I I try to go out and
hit two or three times every week I I
think I could beat him in 10 to 7 out of
ten backhand forehand what's your what's
what's your style of tennis play I wish
I was taller because I really like
trying to come into the net I like I
like falling a lot
um but I am no Rob Rod Laver and Rob
Laver was very short but he was able to
make it work like 50 60 years ago I
really like bowling but I'm a little bit
too short so I I kind of have to stay
back and and I mean I normally hit like
I try to hit hard forehands and I try to
slice uh slice or two hand backhand uh
you mentioned Magnus and Kuryakyn
uh
and I just wonder if you have ideas
thoughts about uh the fact that he was
originally a qualifier for the
candidates tournament and was
disqualified
um by fide for breaching his code of
ethics about the related to his support
for uh the Russian invasion of Ukraine
uh does that ever
seep into the the games that you play
over the board the the geopolitics the
actual military conflict of it all do
you feel the pressure of that because
there's battles between nations nepo's
uh you know Russian there's there's
America there's I mean every nation is
in some profound way represented on the
chessboard right I've I've never really
felt that I think actually for me it's
very eye-opening to realize how
difficult it is for a lot of the Russian
chess players right now to play because
of the situation even nepo for that
matter I remember when we were in St
Louis he he essentially has to bring
cash because obviously Russia's cut off
from Swift no no credit cards work so if
these Russians don't have cash they
can't play and I know a lot of them have
fled the country just to try and keep
their chess career going so it's it's a
very very very tough situation for them
obviously for the ukrainians who are
suffering
um it's it's really really bad do you
know if nepo this has he talked haven't
seen as he talked about
the politics the the geopolitics of it
all I I don't think he really has I I
mean I I feel like most players try to
avoid talking about I think it's very
difficult I remember when I was in St
Louis there's another Russian player
Peter savidler and I I basically asked
him he's like don't get me started
because I I can't I just can't talk
about it um so I think most of them are
probably on the other side of the
spectrum I don't think they're probably
supportive of what is going on right now
so it's it's very it's a very very
difficult situation but I don't really
feel like that manifests itself in
actual like tensions when I play against
like the Russian players I mean maybe
when I was younger playing certain
events the the one country I felt like
maybe it actually I felt some tension I
really want to go out of my way to win
against was against the Chinese perhaps
that is maybe the one time I felt
something along those lines
um but generally I feel like we treat
the players as individuals it's not
about the country they represent yeah
let's go back to the the philosophical
of Chess uh what do you find most
beautiful about the game of chess
looking back over your whole career I
think looking back it's really is it's
both over the board and also just like
the memories that I've created
um I think for me the fact that I've
been able to travel because of Chess to
meet so many people who are playing this
great game from all different
nationalities all all different
backgrounds is is probably the thing
that I I really like the most chess is
one of the maybe the only thing I can
think of where you can have people
different backgrounds different ages
honestly you can have someone who's a
billionaire talking to someone who's
like a nine-year-old kid from the inner
city and when they're talking about the
game of chess they're on the same level
and I don't think that is really
applicable to anything else in this
world um you don't have that level of
respect that is communicated through a
game so for me that's probably the
single most beautiful thing about about
sort of Chess in the Chess World itself
is that you have that in terms of the
game itself the creativity the
possibility of different positions
learning something new even after I've
played the game for 30 years is it's
very inspiring to me knowing that I've
spent all this time they're still new
things that I can learn
um those those are probably two biggest
biggest things that I would refer to are
there
memories big or small like weird
surprising anecdotes from all those
years of going to all the different
places that stand out to some some of
the darker times weirder times like
weird places you've played weird people
you played weird people you hung out
with anything that jumps to memory you
know I think we're this is probably a
little bit more like political but I
think one of the things that's great is
whenever you go and play these
tournaments you have a certain
impression of what a country is like or
what the people are like and probably
the best example for me was in 2004 or
it's actually no sorry it's 2003 I think
it was I played in the uh fide World Cup
and it was held in Tripoli the capital
of Libya at the time when Gaddafi was
still running the country and you know
you hear a lot of these things but then
when you go there and you see the people
are so friendly it's very eye-opening
and sort of you you look at it with uh
without just believing things you go to
these places you see how things truly
are and generally I find that it's very
different than how the media will
portray it one of my great regrets is as
someone who loves history not going to
see Magnus lepta which were the greatest
ruins I think greatest ruins in Africa
from the Roman times and of course no
longer exists so I really do regret that
I think another thing that's very unique
about Chess is that all of us even when
we compete as children like there are a
lot of people like nepo and others who
have known for a very very long time
there are a lot of people who no longer
play chess competitively but inevitably
you end up talking to these people many
years down the road and so you never
truly lose touch with the game or the
people that you grew up playing it with
and there's so many of these people that
like I connected with in the last couple
of years who I knew when I was a kid and
they went off did something else but
they they still end up you still end up
talking to them and have being able to
share these uh these these old memories
so you said you're a bit of a student a
fan of History even ancient history are
there uh cultures periods of time
people
from human history that you draw wisdom
from about human nature that you're
particularly drawn to a lot I mean I
probably study um mostly like it'd be
like ancient Roman history or pre uh
pre-roman Empire and of course ancient
Persia is another um another subject
I've studied a lot on
if you ask me I I would say I mean
there there's it depends you're talking
like military generals you're talking
like philosophers I mean there's so yeah
they're both right so uh philosophers is
how people thought about the world uh of
course military has to do with how the
uh how how people sort of conquered
lands both are interesting because in
part it seems so far away from what we
are today and it's cool to see that
people were
kind of the same in their ability to
invent amazing things
and uh maybe the same and different in
their willingness to go to war so I
think I mean one of my favorite books
that I've read in the last couple years
is the histories by Herodotus uh I mean
basically considered the father of
history and
um I mean I really love reading reading
about these things like thermopyla or
Marathon these these great ancient
battles um I don't know if there's like
a specific like quote or wording or
something like that that I can come up
with but that is one of my favorite
favorite books on history by by far so
those books are written a long time ago
yeah it's like 400 I think it was like
400 BC that's when that was written so
what's that what's that like what's that
like reading that it's just is it does
it seem ancient it does seem ancient
like it's sort of I feel like for myself
one of the things I really like doing is
getting away from technology when I have
the opportunity trying to disconnect
these sorts of things so when I read
books like that besides just having a
general interest it sort of reminds you
like there is really a life without all
this stuff or there was at least at some
point and so it's something that I can
kind of relate to like Humanity
flourishes without all the stuff we take
we think is fundamental to our current
culture like all the all that we find
beautiful about Humanity can still exist
without any of the technology yes
definitely that that's really good
reminder given the contrast of course is
beautiful because you're in the midst of
the technology with streaming right like
it to me streaming somehow feels because
of how
many how how large of a percentage of
the young of young people are interested
like consumes uh streams it feels to
represent like the future
because so many people kind of developed
their mind by watching twitch and
YouTube right I mean that's that's
definitely true for like for for myself
I remember when I was a little bit
younger when I was like 17 18 around
then I would actually try one one day a
week on the weekend to try not to look
at like my computer or my phone now
phones weren't where they are today
obviously but I was able to do that
pretty easily now it's very hard like
when I try to go one day recently I
tried to do that like I actually just
pulled some books out of my garage and I
started reading and it was a very
foreign concept because I do read a lot
but it's always on it's always on an
iPad so or a Kindle yeah both of those
actually
um so it's it's very very weird but I do
try when I can to get away from it all
um I mean another thing like I said I
really like going out into nature when I
have the opportunity I've spent a lot of
time in Colorado for example hiking
hiking some of the 14ers that is one of
those life goals that I have to go and
get to the top of every single one of
them
um so I try to disconnect when I can but
of course it's very hard
so
whether it's disconnecting or not can
you take me through a perfect day in the
life of a car and Nakamura on a day of a
big chess match
multiple days right we'll take one where
it's a big chess match and one that's
just like your representative average
day a perfect chest day although I
cannot do this uh it would start like
the night before I would get like nine
hours of sleep uh like a consistent nine
hours like say 12 a.m to 9 A.M for
example let's just say the round starts
at like two o'clock and then nine to say
12 o'clock I do preparation and then 12
to 1 I go eat lunch and or one to two I
just nap or I walk or I do something
completely unrelated to it that would be
the perfect day
when are you doing uh everything except
the preparation are you thinking about
Chess at all are you trying not to think
I'm trying not to think about Chess
definitely not what do you do is there
any tricks to that well I find that like
if I go outside I just try to try to
hear like the birds I try to listen it's
one of those like meditation kind of
things like you know they always say
when you meditate you try to try to hear
yourself breathing it's like when you
close your eyes try to hear yourself
breathing just focus on that so I do try
to do things like that uh from time to
time as well so in terms of getting nine
hours of sleep that that come difficult
to you that almost never happens I mean
there have been a couple times where it
has happened like in Norway specifically
but generally it just I don't sleep well
during trust terms I wish I did but but
so we're talking about a perfect day so
sleep is really important what about
diet and stuff like that yeah I think uh
for a lot of people they try to keep it
light before the round actually like I
remember hearing the story from uh Peter
sevidler some years back a Russian GM
and he said that kaspara would go and
eat like a big steak right before the
game and he would he would be completely
fine but I think for most players it's
the exact opposite you try to like eat
like some snacks like maybe some nuts a
few bars things of this nature or maybe
just like maybe fish something very
light for lunch
um before the game and then then you
probably eat a lot after the game that's
generally what you try to do but I don't
think there's any like specific diet
that makes a huge difference but every
everyone is different of course so when
you're actually at the board
on that perfect day how do you maintain
Focus for so many hours of classical
chess like like
um you know what like minute to minute
second to Second how are you able to
maintain focus is there tricks to that
how difficult is that I think it really
depends on the type of the game that
you're playing I think if it's a game
that's very very calm and very slow or
not a lot happens at the start it's a
it's a lot easier because because you're
not having to be super focused like your
mind can drift and whatnot and the
critical moment you have to sort of Zone
in
um so those are the easiest ones I think
generally when when games are very
complicated from the start uh what
you're doing is you're you're just
you're you're trying to not let your
mind wander at all because when games
are complicated like that one of the
things that I've never been very good at
is my mind does wander and you're always
like I'm always worrying about the next
move it's like is this a blunder what's
what's going on like what am I gonna do
um so you're trying I think very much to
block out the noise I think that's
actually the hardest thing is is also
because like I can say this when I
played Magnus before there have been
times when I've gotten winning positions
against him and in that moment when I
have the winning position very often
times my mind wanders like okay you're
about to win this game and you're like
okay what happens after the game you win
this game gain the rating points all
these different things but you haven't
actually won the game yet and I think
for a lot of players that's the hardest
thing is when you get a winning position
your mind does drift it drifts to like
what the what happens after after you've
won the game or what the outcome is so
yeah drifting into the future and you
should say in the moment you really
should yes like hold on and also
what is it uh yeah probably getting
excited about the win what what is that
what is it about that that makes you
worse at playing
so interesting like getting uh well I
think it's you you get it's like a nerve
it's nervous but it's like you're you're
too excited I think you just you it's
like you're waiting for a time you
expect it to end and then and then your
opponent keeps keeps defending and and
you can make mistakes what about the
flip side of that where you start
getting frustrated like how do you try
to recover from that kind of thing it's
very difficult I I think for myself I
just try I try to basically focus on it
every single move I just try and again
you try to block out the noise no matter
which direction it's going in so I try
as best I can I mean sometimes I'm very
poor at it like I just don't do a good
job uh blocking out the noise at all but
I think generally I try to think okay
just make this next move make your
opponent have to find the best moves and
just just keep the game going no matter
what just keep it going by the way
what's a long day of classical chess
what's that look like this it's pretty
brutal I mean it would be something like
okay so the game starts at two o'clock
so you've done all this other stuff the
game probably goes from like two to
seven for example or maybe two to eight
five six hours probably eat uh you eat
dinner for an hour or so maybe clear
like I'll go clear my head for 30
minutes and then immediately it's right
back to studying for a couple of hours
are you reviewing previous games are you
already uh generally you're just moving
on to the next game that's what you're
not and trying to no matter what
happened put that behind you yeah win or
lose or draw
okay so that's that's also why there's
another question a lot of people wonder
which is why don't I play more of these
classical tournaments and
sort of it gets back to the you know the
literally don't cares for his stuff but
when I'm going to play in tournaments I
want to be able to give it my best shot
and if I don't feel that I can I'm not
going to play which is why like I play
here and there but I do balance my
schedule very carefully because I'm not
just going to go and play tournament
simply because if I don't feel that I
can put in the work uh it's not it's not
it's not the right thing to do also
because I'm taking away a spot from
somebody else who probably will be
putting in the work who will want to
compete in that event and so when I look
at the candidates or a lot of people say
well why why is he playing there like
okay qualified but he's not going to
take it seriously
um but I did give it everything I had in
that tournament
um and I always will as much as I can if
I can't do that then I'm just not going
to play
so what about a perfect day in the life
of vacara when you're not doing a
perfect day a perfect day would be
something along the lines of I get up
very early like three four o'clock in
the morning drive an hour away and go
climb mountains that's the perfect day
out in the mountains oh oh do you mean a
normal non yeah a perfectly productive
normal day oh perfectly productive okay
so perfectly productive would be along
the lines if I wake up at like 7 30 8
o'clock probably I watch either
Bloomberg or CNBC for 30 minutes to an
hour
um and then watch the markets for maybe
maybe an hour or two look at certain
things that are you really care about
investing uh I do follow it quite
closely yeah I follow the markets very
closely closer than I should but yes for
personal reasons so do do you comment on
it like do you like for personal
investing reasons or for like
philosophical understanding what's going
on in the world it's it's sort of
everything I think first of all
obviously I'm interested in investing I
have been for many many years I've done
investing trading for at least a decade
now
um so like I am very interested on that
level I'm also quite interested as well
because when you see the policy that's
being dictated like you look in the last
last six months specifically you see the
FED policy around things like interest
rates unemployment things of this nature
it is something that interests me also
because I do invest in real estate aside
from the stock market so therefore I'm
always keeping an eye on these sorts of
things and and always looking and as a
better example like I'm looking for
Trends so if we go back to I think it
was 20 I could have the year wrong it
was 2015 or 2016.
um there was a pattern that I found that
on the FED minutes that came out uh you
know I believe 2 215 I think it's on the
Wednesday of every third Wednesday of
every month
um that gold would actually the gold
ETFs and etns would actually go up uh
not every single every single Wednesday
of the month that the minutes came out
so I would follow things like that now
of course I wasn't like trading huge
huge volume but I found a trend there of
course it stopped working at a certain
point but those are the sorts of things
that they just interest me even if it's
not something I'm doing to make a living
trying to spot those Trends it's always
been something that has uh that has
fascinated me
one Reddit said that you shorted Tesla a
time ago uh do you regret doing so uh
well when I when I did those plays I was
only those small amounts of money and
that was only via uh via puts that was
where I would buy puts or put spreads um
on it so it wasn't something where I was
straight shorting I would I would never
actually do that
um because it's just it's not worth the
risk and I don't want to ever be in a
situation where I have to think about
those sorts of things and I think a
better example is there was a period in
2016 actually shortly before the
candidates when I actually was in oil I
had a long position in oil and this is
when oil completely crashed it went very
I don't think it went below did it go
below 30 even it went very low and and
of course the Saudis were not cutting
they were not um I think they they were
uh were they cutting or not cutting
production but anyway there was a period
in 2016 when I had a big long position
in one of the 3x oil ETFs and I I it
kept going down day after day after day
and then of course right near the bottom
of my finally couldn't take it anymore I
took a loss and that really sort of it
was very difficult dealing with that the
stress every day looking seeing those
losses and after that I kind of decided
I would never put myself in such a
situation again
um and so that's why like I don't I
don't do shorting and then separately
and I think I post a reply to this
comment but in 2021 as Tesla started
going up I actually started selling puts
and I did quite well off of that so it's
it's sort of play Both Sides never never
like become hard set with your
conviction like where you refuse like
this is this is just like it has to go
down or like it it has to go up just
sure you'd be you have to be um willing
to adapt do you think shorting should is
should be legal do you think it's
ethical like to me I'm not I don't know
much about investing but I feel like it
feels wrong now I know
if uh something is over inflated
it's good for there to be an opposing
Force to like balance it or something
like that but it just feels like in our
current modern internet world I think
Tesla I vaguely saw somewhere that's
like the most shorted stock like ever
and so that incentivizes a lot of
um the publication of misinformation
about it like it just feels like the
incentives are wrong not when we look at
the markets but at the future of human
civilization perspective it just feels
like shorting is somehow wrong but maybe
maybe I'm misunderstanding the broader
picture of markets well I actually try
not to do that I like I almost only take
long positions specifically because I
feel like you're at betting betting like
on world collapsing I just I feel like
morally I don't want to be in that that
I don't I don't want to have that
Viewpoint I think you know that sort of
is another thing that I've noticed like
I've been very lucky I've traveled a lot
I've met a lot of a lot of famous people
and the one thing that I know notices
like a lot of a lot of the people who
are the most successful they're the ones
who are very optimistic no matter what
is happening day to day they remain very
optimistic about the future of where
things are going
um so so I try not to enter that
situation I think as far as like
shorting specifically the real danger to
me is that anybody can now invest and I
feel like actually some of these apps
like Robin Hood they go out of their way
to try and make it seem like it's this
fun game
um like I I I've seen people where you
place a trade and like it gives you like
like these stickers or these pop-ups
like of confetti and it's like wait a
second what what's what's going on here
um with the whole with the whole game
like people are sort of they're going
after the wrong thing
um so I I don't think shorting like will
be banned but I think it's very
dangerous that everybody has access to
to being able to do things like that so
according to Reddit on the topic of
Tesla
uh you have trouble admitting when you
make a mistake is that true
um no that's that's generally not true
actually I think that way Reddit is not
accurate and truthful in its
representation of a character that's
fascinating no I think I think the thing
that I I've learned is I'm obviously
very good at chess but that doesn't
automatically mean that I'm I'm a genius
and everything else and I feel like
that's another thing actually I really
really admire about Magnus is that he is
the world champion he's the best player
but he does not automatically believe
that translate to EV translates to every
area of life I feel like with some other
world champions they think that they're
great no matter what they do
um and that's not not like intentionally
trying to be like be like rude but I do
feel like there's certain people who
feel like that like anything they say is
right and they are the authority
um when in reality like we are the
authorities when it comes to chess like
we know chess the best we are the
experts but that doesn't automatically
mean we're Geniuses and everything else
that said I think you said somewhere on
the c squared podcast that
I forget if it's chess or streaming that
taught you to generalize the various
like you feel like you're able to do
other things now was that streaming I
don't know if that's specifically
streaming but I think streaming has
taught me a lot about sort of life and
also how to run run a business honestly
like I've I have read a lot of business
books and one of the things with
streaming is that when you start out
it's like this very small thing it's
just you maybe you have a couple of
people who help you along the way but as
it becomes bigger or bigger if there's a
boom you suddenly start having to hire
employees you're basically running this
business and like for me I've I've
learned a lot about that because one one
of there was this book that I read some
years back I think it was by Mary
Buffett it was on Warren Buffett and and
how like he tries to be hands off like
when he buys these companies it's
hands-off management stays the same you
don't do anything and I actually I try
to do things kind of the same way where
like I try to be hands off there are a
couple people around me I leave a lot of
the general day-to-day decisions up to
them and then like things that are
really important obviously I'm involved
in but I try to do things like that so
streaming is you learn a lot along the
way and I think now having done that
there probably are several other
potential careers that I that I could
have if I really wanted to almost about
that uh generalize in terms of what it
takes to build a business from the
ground up from the process of becoming a
successful streamer you have learned
what it takes to start from the ground
up with a single person and to build the
business as multiple people in a
successful uh what what would you
attribute your success as a streamer to
I mean many things I think being a very
strong trustler and having had a
following was incredibly important at
the start I think anybody whether it's
chess or whatever field if you have that
following to begin with from from your
career or whatever activity or video
game you do that's already a big step up
if you have that to begin with so that
definitely played a big role I think
more than that though for me it's about
the fans it's about hearing from people
how they feel I mean there are trolls
obviously but the positive messages you
hear when you hear about people who are
struggling struggling in life whether
it's say I've heard people talk about
having cancer you hear about someone
going through a divorce or they're just
trying to make it through day to day
when you hear about things like that I
think it really puts it all into
perspective about what it what it all
means at the end of the day and um so
for me it really is the fans that they
they give me that motivation they are
they are the reason I do it and when I
meet when I meet some of these fans in
person like I have it a couple of a
couple of events like just talking to
them hearing their story worry just just
knowing that I can bring them some Joy
is uh again at the end of the day it's
why are you doing it that's that's what
it's about if I can bring people Joy you
know if it's someone working working
like in a factory all day someone in the
middle of the country if I bring them
Joy through my chest that means a lot
you know if it's if it's a kid for
example if I can Inspire them to take up
chess in a more serious way or even
honestly if they just learn from chess
certain skills like critical thinking
and that leads to them becoming like a
great scientist or something down the
road that is what I'm what I'm
ultimately hoping uh that's that's what
I hope will come out of it I mean we'll
give you strength to have to turn on I
mean I don't know how much you stream
but it's a lot so day after day after
day to be able to put that content out
there is there some
can you comment on the challenge of that
and maybe the low points how you're able
to overcome that I I actually don't fill
the lows and I think the main reason
that I don't fill lows is because at the
end of the day I've been very fortunate
even even as a chess player very very
fortunate travel the world meet people
I've lived a great life
so for me to see myself as a streamer
doing so well and and bringing joy to
people I don't feel like I'm in a
position maybe this is wrong to say this
because mental health is very important
but for myself I feel like I'm very
lucky I don't really have any right to
complain so I don't really feel those
lows in the same way there are times
when there's certain things like Reddit
or otherwise it will will get on my
nerves a little bit but I'm able to
realize that I'm so fortunate and so I
don't generally struggle struggle with
the lows that much
speaking of Reddit and trolls Reddit
asked me to ask you to tell me the story
of Chess Bay the Reddit moderator who
pitted you against Eric Hansen uh also
known as chess bro I'm just saying
things I don't know I don't know much
about air cans I guess Eric is another
Grandmaster you guys had some uh drama
and tension between each other so we'll
also ask you to tell me what you like
best about Eric Hansen as a human being
here's what I was like the the whole
stream streamers and the whole boom of
Chess there are certain people certain
entities that are very very important to
what happened
um you know there are a lot of people in
the right place at the right time myself
botez the chess bras I love you as well
we were all kind of in the right place
at the right time but just having the
personalities alone is not enough you
need people who push things and
um there are a lot of things that have
been said about Chess Bay about what she
did at the end of the day the way that I
view it is pretty straightforward you
don't have to agree with what she did
manner in which she did things but it
pushed the game it pushed the directory
and chess on Twitch forward in a way
that would not have been possible with
anybody else at the time chess.com for
example they were not directly
um pushing it so you needed someone
who's pushing it and that so to me when
I look at the whole boom actually of
what happened on Twitch in many ways I
think she's just as responsible as I was
Levy was botez was in the bras were all
of us were extremely fortunate because
if you didn't have someone pushing it
forward until Stockholm was not really
that involved at the time it never would
have gotten to where it was so you can
sort of look at it and say okay you
don't agree with what happened but you
needed someone like that who was going
to push push really hard to get just to
where it is today
can you comment on what happened for
people who have no clue what you were
talking about is that not useful I I
don't think it's specifically useful to
get into it I think there are a lot of
layers
um people felt there were things like
abuses of power things of that nature
there are a lot of things that were said
um you know I don't want to be super
negative about about what happened
specifically but one thing people will
note
um is that prior to what did happen in
April of 20 I think that was 2021 now uh
there were a lot more collaborations the
Chess World was much more together as a
whole a lot of streamers did things
together after what happened in April
there was a big sort of Separation a lot
of streamers went off in their own
directions because of what happened
um so that is I mean that's not the
whole story there's a lot more to it of
course but I think it's fair to say that
I if I can just comment on the few times
I've tuned into the streaming world I do
hate to see the the silos that were
created one of the reasons I've been a
fan and now a good friend of uh Joe
Rogan you call it collaborations because
basically everybody's supporting each
other gets excited for each other
promotes each other and there's not that
competitive feeling with with streamers
sometimes I've just noticed that there's
a
natural siloing effect
I don't know why that is exactly
um maybe because drama is somehow
good for views and clicks and that kind
of stuff I don't know what that is but I
hate to see it because I love seeing
kind of
friendship and uh uh collaboration I
think this also goes like again try not
to be super negative but this also goes
to the chest world as a whole like one
of the things that I've been in this
trust world for a very long time not
talking about online but just like the
Chess World itself and I've been very
fortunate because I've seen a couple
booms and busts like in the late it
actually wasn't late 90s it was in the
mid 90s there was a period of time when
Intel and IBM and all these tech
companies were very big on chess there
there were there's this PCA Grand Prix
World Championship held in New York
um there there also were I think there
was like the deep blue stuff later on in
the late 90s with Gary Gary Kasparov um
and you had a lot of interest at the
time and then it sort of went went up in
Flames for a couple different reasons
also in the late late 2000s or maybe
mid-2000s there was a group in Seattle
that was very big on chess they hosted
the US Championship all these different
things there have been a lot of booms uh
booms and busts of course if you go way
back there was the Fisher boom as well
um but inevitably what leads these bus
and the thing thing that leads to it is
at the end of the day people in the
trust world have this natural tendency
to want to not work together you want to
hang on to whatever whatever piece of
the Chess World you have as opposed to
thinking about it from the standpoint of
what's good for one is good for all and
so it's one of those things that now
that I'm in this situation having seen
these booms of us I I remember when I
was younger I would very oftentimes
think like why is it the chest isn't
bigger why do we struggle so much to to
grow the game and I think you know we we
see the reason so now when I'm in this
position it's also very tough because
like I know what's happened you try to
learn from the past
um but you still it still feels very
hard to uh break out from that it feels
very tough and it's also difficult
because another thing that people kind
of misunderstand is from time to time
I'll talk about myself I'll actually
talk about Levy and incomes or how well
we're doing and the main reason I talk
about this is that I wanted to inspire
like fide the governing bodies and
others feel like wow these people are
having such success like we we surely we
can do something different we can change
things and somehow it has not happened
which is in a way very very
disheartening to me because I want to
see more interest in chess you know you
want to see more sponsors more more the
general public getting excited by the
game so it is one of those things that's
very very difficult yeah so you want to
see Innovation on the parts of everybody
but also the organizations like
feedanchs.com right to uh how to inspire
a large number of people which is what
this is what streamers are doing they're
constantly innovating I guess of how how
to reach very large audience before we
forget just to put a little look you
want me to ask about error yeah yeah
yeah a little love out there what do you
like best about Eric Hansen as a human
being
um I think he's it's mainly he's just
he's very he's very charismatic he's
very charismatic he he knows the the
brand that he has and he's he doesn't
like he doesn't pretend to fake it like
he knows what his brand is and and he
owns it so he's uh just for people who
don't know and I don't know he's a grand
master yeah he's a strong Grandmaster
but he's also like a Creator yeah one of
the one of the earliest major chess
content creators on Twitch like
educational stuff too uh a mix mix of
educational mix of high level everything
yeah okay awesome
uh what historical chess figure do you
think would have the best streams
historical chess figure I would say
probably Mikhail tal who's the former
world champion
um now he lived he lived a very um very
exciting life let's put it that he was
somebody who drank he's from uh he was
from Latvia he's gonna he's called the
uh the magician from Riga uh so he drank
a lot uh he smoked a lot a lot of a lot
of other stuff as well oh like with sex
drugs and rock and roll kind of yeah he
was he's I think if you look at like
actually not even just top Grand Masters
but like or not immoral trans but top
Grand Masters he probably had the most
uh most interesting Life by by far by
far
and even even like as an example of how
much he loved chess and how how what a
character he was I think when he was uh
dying in like 19 I think it was 1989 or
maybe it was 91 when he was dying he
actually left the hospital to go play a
blitz tournament in Moscow and he
actually beat Gary Kasparov in that
Blitz tournament in one of the games
well at what age uh probably like late
50s mid 50s I mean he drank too much so
he died young but yeah like he left he
left the hospital in Moscow and went to
play a blitz term he beat Kasparov well
first of all just to push back I think
we all died too young and uh some of the
most impactful people uh like uh
Churchill did quite a bit of drinking
and smoking all that kind of stuff so um
you can still do brilliant things even
if you uh partake in the old
uh with skin drugs and rock and roll and
women okay
just about streaming though I there's
there's this quote that I mean it's that
I love which is the Steve Jobs quote
which is you can you can never connect
the dots um looking looking forward you
can only connect them looking backwards
and when I look at how I got into
streaming there were all these things
that happened along the way that were so
beneficial so one first thing would be
that when I was young and I was I was
growing up I played a lot of Blitz chess
on the internet chess club it was one of
the predecessors to trust.com and there
were there was no like No cameras or
audio or these things but one thing that
people did was you could commit you
would write comments about your games
and things of this nature and so I was
actually doing very I was doing
something very similar where instead of
talking I was writing and chatting
during some of the games that I was
playing so that was something that I was
doing that was very very beneficial
without that I don't think that I would
have been able to have the success that
I've had streaming I think would have
taken much longer to get used to it and
feel comfortable with it but I already
had that built-in Advantage
um additionally when I was younger up
until I think I was a I was 10 or 11 I
don't remember exactly I did not
actually have a TV well I had a TV but I
didn't have cable so I did not watch TV
Growing Up So I listened to the radio a
lot I listened to a lot of baseball
games in New York Yankees specifically
um and so I think by listening to those
games like I I sort of I've heard a lot
of announcers and I think that's also
it's one of those things where you learn
from what you see kind of when you're
growing up um they're examples and so I
think that was very very beneficial and
then a third thing
um in terms of like having some flares
when when I was growing up I was
homeschooled probably about 14 15. there
were there was this uh Great Courses I
think they still they still do some of
these great Course and there was this I
don't remember who who the guy was but
he was a professor and so I watched some
of these DVDs of his lectures and he
would always dress up as someone who it
was like Middle Ages so he would dress
up and he was sort of like an orator and
he would explain like you know what
happened in the 13 1400s in this sort of
style and that's also something that
obviously it's not something that I can
consciously like internalize but I think
it's something as well that from having
watched those courses and seeing that
style of oration really helped me a lot
as a streamer too yeah the yeah all
those little experiences contributed to
life that's that's definitely something
I think about because I took a pretty
non-linear path to life and I think they
they somehow get integrated into the
picture but I do I do uh
connect to your um idea that you being
good at chess was a part was an
important part of your success streaming
I think like that's really good advice
for people to um
to be good like in order to be a Creator
or
a podcast or create videos all that kind
of stuff or stream I feel like it
enriches you if you if you pursue with
your whole heart something else outside
of that like you don't have to be
obviously at your level of Chess but
just you have to be developed in a
passion or procedure yeah you have to
know what that passion kind of what what
it is I think for sure I think if you're
all only doing streaming there's
something first of all I feel like
that's going to empty you over time for
some reason I've seen some of the lows
that people hit if they don't have this
other passion Pursuit outside of
streaming but also just make you a
better creator
uh which is interesting I think um I
think again with with podcasting this
applies like with Rogan I think he's
just would not the reason this podcast
is very good is because
all of his passion is put into being a
comedian and being uh uh a fight
commentator like the podcast is a is a
is a hot is a side hobby that's the way
I feel about it too that so that's your
main passion is outside of it I don't
know what that is
I think it puts everything in its proper
context and also it allows you to
mentally Escape into that place that you
find deeply
um fulfilling you mentioned uh
uh like offline you told me that you're
interested you you found it interesting
that I said that I'm renting this
particular place and I always rent
because
um
because of the sense of Freedom it gives
I mean I tend to actually try to be a
minimalist for the most part
um when it comes things like clothes or
or like owning like like cars for
example or watch that like I just I
don't own a lot of these these uh
material things they don't really
interest me but at the end of the day
the one thing is and this this is this
might actually play a role in a lot of
like the hiccups where I didn't get to
maybe being closer to world champion is
that one of the things from from the
time that I was I was very young is like
I didn't grow up from like a wealthy
background and like I had a single
mother for the first six years of my
life she works as an elementary teacher
to support my brother and myself so like
I saw a lot of these sort of lows
um in life early on now even even once
you're remarried like all the money that
my stepfather made was not all of it but
a lot of it was directed towards like my
mom and I like traveling to tournaments
internationally or even in the U.S
um so seeing some of these struggles
like once I actually made it as a chess
player and this this goes back to
investing as well
um is that it's kind of like you want to
be secure at a certain point so I've
always looked at that
um like what is you know how do you get
to that point at the end of the day
um and and again like I said with my
experiences seeing like actually even
now my stepfather he's 72 years old
still teaches chess all the time
um probably works harder than I do
actually
um and so so I see things like that and
that that really interested me like how
do you get from point A to point B and
that's that's in large part what led to
it that being said obviously when you
start owning things like uh properties
houses or condos and whatnot
um there are headaches that come along
with you know getting some of these
bills in the mail or you say HOA about a
tenant not um you know parking their car
illegally fifty dollars that you have to
you have to pay in fees these sorts of
things it is kind of a pain
um
but I try I mean I try to reduce the
number of things that can really bother
me in life and that's really the only
thing that I let you know not let but
it's one of those things the only things
that kind of ties me down in a way and I
still feel pretty free though for the
most part despite owning but you
mentioned security so that meaning like
security stability yeah sorry so that's
the thing you chase
do you value when it comes to chess as I
said if you're a pro player you can do
very well make a couple hundred thousand
dollars a year of course I'm talking
pre-tax
um but if you do poorly in one year that
income dries up and there is a chance
you'll never get back there so I feel
like for much of my career that was
always on my mind and maybe that held me
back to some degree I don't know those
the sort of the sort of thoughts about
things like that as opposed to purely
being being focused only only on the
chess like worrying about the results
worrying about the prizes things like
this um it might have held me back but
that was always something that was all
it was it was on my mind
for me I really worked hard to make sure
that I'm
philosophically intellectually
spiritually in every way I'm okay with
having nothing as close to nothing as
you can get and the reason I want that
is so that I have the freedom to not
create stability or rather have
stability because my bar for stability
is so low and that gives me the freedom
to take big risks and I thought that for
me I felt like the way I could really
help the world
is by optimizing you know the positive I
can do and for that you have to take big
risks and big risks really does mean uh
potentially losing everything
so you're saying like startups you mean
like that yeah the startups in every
aspect meaning pivoting
uh career paths completely when
everybody else is telling you not
actually you know it's interesting
because like when I think about
streaming it's not like it's not like a
star because like I'm not like investing
money where I where I can lose
everything if it's not successful but it
was also a big risk for me doing that
because at the time I was a professional
player doing very well when I when I
kind of started in October 2018 I was
still top 10 in the world doing very
well 2019 was actually a very bad year
for me I started playing much worse and
towards the end of 2019 I was I intended
to take a six month break last time I
played was November 2019 in India and
then I was going to take a break until
the U.S championship in April of 2020.
so I did in a sense actually take a risk
because I was potentially risking my
career
um by spending this extra time that I
had streaming so it's not like it's not
the risk where like financially I can
lose everything but it actually was a
bit of a risk now now that I think about
it in a sense because if I lose my
career as a player there's no guarantee
that streaming is going to be anything
anything substantial you didn't think it
was a risk at the time
I think at the time I just I don't know
I thought it was just something fun to
spend my time on I I like I I didn't
somehow I don't know I wasn't I figured
that after a six-month break I would
come back and play better chess kind of
but like the stream as far as streaming
I never thought of it as being something
that would be a career something viable
I just thought it's something fun to do
uh maybe it gives me it gives fans some
access to me it broadens the platform
more people hear about me and that that
was about it really I did not ever
expect it to become what it did you said
uh growing up with a single mother
hmm
and just giving your whole life to Chess
at a certain point has there been
through that
low points
maybe times when you felt lonely
isolated maybe even depressed oh
absolutely
chess is very difficult you're you're on
your own like you can have friends
people you compete against who are
friends but at the end of the day it's a
very singular Pursuit it's just you and
your results dictate everything so there
have been many moments
um throughout my life when when like
I've struggled I I think probably the
the biggest uh biggest time when that
happened would have been about 2005 into
2006 where I stopped playing chess and I
went to college and that was mainly
because I had gotten to a level where I
was top 100 in the world but I stagnated
for that year about 2005 2006 and so I
decided to go to college primarily
because I had stagnated I didn't feel
like I was going anywhere and then also
kind of being on your own just having a
few friends here there in the Chess
World you kind of you wonder what it's
like and especially because I was
homeschooled as well like that that
further added to kind of wanting to
um be around other people it really
played a very big role in in my decision
to go to college
but at the end of the day as as I
realized College kind of was a big
disappointment because the strongest or
the biggest strength of playing chess is
that you mingle with people from all
different backgrounds all different ages
and when I went to college the the whole
notion of basically people who are
Juniors and seniors being more important
or more equal than others to do the
animal farm line
um like when you're when you're in that
situation it didn't really jive with my
childhood and growing up in the world of
Chess and that that is one of the
biggest reasons that I actually came
back to chess because it's like this
world of where certain people can are
more important like and and things are
different like I just could not really
relate to that and that was that was one
of the biggest reasons it really was
that wasn't the only reason the other
reason though was that towards the end
of my first semester I played a term
after not studying actually when I was
in college when I wasn't actually
studying for class I was mainly on
PokerStars playing poker all all night
long
um so like towards the end of that
semester I actually went to play a
tournament uh in Philadelphia because I
was going to college nearby and um with
very little preparation I won that
tournament against other strong Grand
Masters and that kind of made me think
well okay if if I'm ever going to take a
chance it has to be now if I stay in
college for four years probably got like
you know probably probably you know got
a major on political science do
something in the political Arena and
then I felt like I'm gonna probably look
back like five ten years from now I
wonder what if what if what if like what
if I had played chess how far could I
have gone and if I'd taken those four
years there would have been no
opportunity for me to to reach my full
potential or even see how far I go so
therefore that that was um also a big
big reason so another what what if
question if you didn't play chess
you mentioned political what other
possible
that depends that successful trajectory
you might have you had that depends on
on what point really if uh when you ask
that question I think if we're talking
about the time of college probably I
would have done something in political
science
um maybe law obvious or something
something terrible like that honestly
um if I was a little bit younger there
were you know I really I loved uh
ancient history archeology and also
languages as well so probably something
along those lines and if we talk like
more recently something something in
finance I don't know what exactly but
something something in finance what do
you think like when we talk again 30
years what do you think you're doing 30
years
um
I honestly want to believe that I'm just
you know sitting in like a beach house
in Malibu just just relaxing yeah right
so like you and I are in a yacht for
some reason why we're in a yacht you
paid for it it's you you don't ever want
to own a yacht um no okay all right fine
but I I mean that's like the the amount
of money you waste on docking fees the
yeah the gas like no way no I guess I
was trying to construct an example
you're being super rich for some reason
it doesn't have to be that actually you
know I don't think that that's actually
does not appeal to me at all I I think
one of another great thing about Chess
is that within the Chess World I'm very
prominent and famous but I can go out to
the supermarket and nobody recognize me
and so I am famous but I'm not famous at
the same time so I don't actually want
to be like I don't want to be in a
situation where everyone recognizes me
or I'm super famous it's not that that
to me sounds like a very miserable life
I I do not want TMZ down the street so
your family this in a community you love
and that so whenever you plug into that
Community it's it's always like this
deep connection there you can always
Escape when you need to break
what advice would you give to young
people about career about life maybe
they're in high school maybe they're in
college
maybe they want to achieve the heist who
have achieved in chess they want to do
that for something they yeah so I think
the main thing is follow your heart
Follow Your Passion one thing I did we
didn't touch on this
um like both my parents my mom was was a
musician she was she was very good I
think she was like maybe Allstate in
California when she was growing up on
the violin but she still was nowhere
near good enough to get into Juilliard
or the top music schools and pursue that
as as a career and there are a lot of
starving musicians who never are able to
quite make it so like when I see my mom
and and and what happened with her you
know her passion the fact she wasn't
able to make it or then my stepfather
who who haven't talked about my
stepfather actually he's of Sri Lankan
descent um he comes from a family of
lawyers his father was a lawyer his
uncle was a lawyer for the international
court of justice so it's a family of
lawyers and my stepfather he went to
England to study law he went to
Southampton I think it was University of
Southampton and at some point point he
was going and playing these tournaments
on the weekend and playing playing at
the school club all these things and his
parents actually they took away his
chess board they took away his chess
books they took everything away and told
him he was going to become a lawyer he
would he could not play chess
um so when I look at my upbringing you
know I feel very lucky that my parents
having had these experiences they were
so supportive of everything I did and I
think that at the end of the day you
have to pursue your passion to whatever
end that might be you might you might
pursue it you might fail but I do think
you have to pursue it um it's better
what's it it's better to have tried and
failed than have not tried at all so I
really do believe that's the most
important thing is that you do that
um and where it takes you who knows but
the experiences I feel are much more
important than than like the what ifs
and possibly missing out on living life
so even if it's uh you know everybody
around you and your own judgment says
that this is not going to be financially
viable long-term still pursue I think I
mean at some point you have to make
those tough decisions but absolutely I
feel like too many people follow the
standard route it's like you're supposed
to you know go to college get that
degree be two hundred thousand dollars
in debt these sorts of things um but
then then at the end of the day are you
are you really living are you pursuing
what you want to pursue it's just
because that's what you're supposed to
do that's what Society tells us that
you're the route you're supposed to go
um so I I think you just have to you
pursue it of course at a certain point
you're not making it you have to make
hard decisions but I think that you know
in life the the only thing really you
know time and sort of experiences those
the only things that you really can't
put a price on
yeah and uh you know and really pursue
it you know even like streaming I'll see
people like or YouTube and that kind of
stuff it's it's a world and in many ways
foreign to me
it's like there's there's levels to this
game and that like there's a way to
really pursue it and there's a way to
half-ass it and I guess the point is not
the half-ass it like
um don't
you know don't just keep it a hobby make
it a full-time if that's your passion
then go all out so sometimes people can
think that like
uh these things they love it's just a
hobby like music or something like that
but there's a way to do it seriously to
go all out yeah
that's that's probably my general advice
is like whatever it is you pursue it
because even with chess why not when I
dropped out of college there was no
guarantee that I was going to make it as
a professional player there was no
guarantee but like I took that chance
and very very fortunately for me it
worked out
would you rather fight a horse-sized
duck or a hundred duck-sized horses
um
probably a probably a horse-sized dock
just just one one enemy is better than
having to keep an eye on a hundred this
the stress or what the anxiety you don't
uh
the why why why why don't you like 100 I
mean they're tiny tiny duck size courses
well I don't know if they're gonna
attack you or not but I feel like having
one enemies thing like the clear
objective I I would always I prefer that
if you could uh be someone else for a
day
alive or dead
uh who would you be who would I want to
be for a day
um if I had to pick someone actually I
would probably pick Elon
um when how many years ago is now what
when when the Rockets were blowing up
I'd be very interested to see those
processes of how they went through that
and they got out on the other side
because like you I feel like you most of
the time when you hear about the
startups like okay you look at Amazon
you have the big investment to start
doesn't feel like there were those super
super lows yeah for for like the Amazons
of the world maybe not when the three
rocks blew up but maybe when that was it
the fourth or fifth one actually
succeeded but somewhere in that time
frame
yeah that that is probably one of the
lowest lows that ever publicly I've ever
seen yeah that's yeah those are the
moments that make us if everyone on
Earth disappeared through a horrible
atrocity and it was just you left uh
what would your days look like what
would you do it's just me it's just dead
bodies anything like this right it was
like there's many movies like this
honestly if I could I would probably
just uh but you're saying there's like
no no life like no no plans not another
stuff no there's there's life there's
there's life just not just not not human
life um there's like goats and stuff is
it what was that I remember reading us I
mean it's slightly over there was this
sci-fi book I read many years ago I
think it was rendezvous with Rama
um or I think there were people that
were just going all over the land like
in this this cylinder
um and so I think for me I've just
explore I've just like walk bicycle
maybe plant plant some uh plant some
trees things of this nature I wonder how
that would experience uh change your
experience of nature knowing that you it
truly is because like that's one of the
magical things with Nature's it's
humbling that it's just you out there or
like that's that's why I love it I
that's why I love going like hiking um
because obviously you got the exercise
but honestly it's a reminder of how
small we really are
and here you would realize like
you I mean it's is it extra humbling
effect of like you really are alone out
here yeah that's
I don't know I probably
I've probably spent a lot of time just
thinking about thinking about everything
too do you hate losing in chess or do
you love winning do I hate losing or do
I love winning I think I love I love I
love winning I mean maybe because I've
maybe because I'm doing so many
different things like losing doesn't
have the same effect on me that it that
it once did
um so I think like now I definitely love
winning winning more but I think when I
was younger I hated I hated losing much
more than I thought much more than I
liked winning what comforts you on bad
days
I think similar to what gives me the
motivation for streaming is the fact
that at the end of the day no matter how
bad things things appear or seem I mean
we've never been at a better time in
human history people have things much
better off now than any other time so I
I find it hard to really have pity or
not have pity but like feel really bad I
just use those sorts of things as like
the the way to to get over it's just
knowing how how lucky I am
what's the role of Love In The Human
Condition let me ask if a car About Love
Love Is Love is uh
I mean I think it can be the greatest
thing in the world I think when it you
know when When Things Fall Apart like
you know I I've I've been through this
quite a few times actually
um some some really real highs some some
really real lows as well uh I think love
is it it can it can inspire you to do
things you never thought were possible
um
and without it though I think it's I
think life life is very empty I think
it's the probably the most important
thing to have in life in one one way or
another
which is extra sad if you were the last
person left on earth right exactly yeah
I mean I think
again also in terms of Chess I think
that that it can be as far as just goes
like or any competition it can be the
greatest thing in the world it can also
be the worst thing in the world when
when you're in love a lot of chess
players for many it does not help them
it actually makes them play much worse
to us because you you kind of you you
don't have that energy or that drive in
the same kind of way
um so it's it's very mixed for chess as
far as me personally though I think you
know I would say what I've said before
it's better to have loved and lost and
I've never have loved at all and I
definitely have been through that
I thought you don't care I thought you
don't care
turns out you care sometimes a little
bit a tiny bit a very very tiny bit a
car you're an amazing person I'm a huge
fan uh it's really an honor that you
would talk with me today I can't wait to
see what you do next thank you it's good
being here
thanks for listening to this
conversation with her car in the Kimora
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let me leave you with some words from
David bronstein
it is my style to take my opponent and
myself onto unknown grounds a game of
chess is not an examination of knowledge
it is the Battle of nerves
thank you for listening and hope to see
you next time