Kind: captions
Language: en
when we use the term free will we're
talking about this feeling that
Consciousness that that we have a self
that this there's this concrete thing
that's separate from
brain processing that somehow swoops in
and is the the cause of our decision or
the cause of our next action and that is
in large part if not in its entirety and
illusion
the following is a conversation with
Annika Harris author of conscious a
brief Guide to the fundamental mystery
of the mind and is someone who writes
and thinks a lot about the nature of
Consciousness and of reality especially
from the perspectives of physics and
Neuroscience
this is the Lux reading podcast to
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in the description and now dear friends
here's Annika Harris
in your book conscious you described
evidence that Free Will is an illusion
and that Consciousness is used to
construct this illusion and convince
ourselves that we are in fact deciding
our actions uh can you can you explain
this I think this is chapter three first
of all I I really think it's important
to make a distinction between Free Will
and conscious will and we'll get into
that in a moment so free will in terms
of our brain as a system in nature
making complex decisions and doing all
the complex processing it does there is
a decision-making process in nature that
our brains undergo that we can call Free
Will that's that's fine to use that
shorthand for that although once once we
get into the details I I might
um convince you that it's not so free
but that the decision-making process is
a process in nature the feeling our
conscious experience of feeling like
Consciousness is the thing that is
driving the behavior
that is I would say in most cases an
illusion and usually when we talk about
Free Will that's the thing we're talking
about I mean sometimes it's in
conjunction with the decision-making
process but for the most part when we
use the term free will we're talking
about this feeling that Consciousness
that that we have a self that this
there's this concrete thing that's
separate from
brain processing that somehow swoops in
and is the the cause of our decision or
the cause of our next action and that is
um in large part if not in its entirety
and illusion so conscious will is an
illusion and then we can try to Free
Will I would say is a good shorthand for
a process in nature which is a
decision-making process of of the brain
but decisions are still being made so
there's a
uh if you ran the universe over again
hmm
is there would it turn out the same way
I mean maybe I'm trying to sneak up to
like
what does it mean to make a decision in
a way that's almost uh that means
something so right so this is where our
intuitions get challenged I've been
thinking about some new examples for
this just because I talk about it a lot
and and the truth is most of the things
I write about and talk about and think
about are so counter-intuitive I mean
that that's really what my game is is
breaking intuitions shaking up
intuitions in order to get a deeper
understanding of reality
I'm often even though I've thought about
this for 20 years and think about it all
the time it's an obsession of mine
really I have to get back into that mind
frame
to be able to think clearly about it
because it is so counter-intuitive how
long does that take
how hard is that depends on if there are
kids around or if I'm alone or if I've
been meditating but what I was going to
say actually I felt like we need to just
take one step back
and talk a little bit just because I
think the the importance of shaking up
intuitions for scientific and
advancement is such an important piece
of the scientific process
um and I think we've reached a point in
Consciousness studies where
it's very difficult to move forward and
usually that's a sign that we need to
start shaking up our intuition so you
know throughout history the the huge
breakthroughs the things that have
really shifted our view of the universe
and and our place in the universe and
all of that those almost always if not
always require that we at the very least
shift our intuitions
um update our intuitions but many of
them we just have to let go of
intuitions that are feeding us false
information about the way the world
works well the weirdest thing here is
that here we're looking at our own mind
yeah you have to uh let go of your
intuitions
about your own intuitions yeah right
exactly it's very meta and makes it hard
and it's part of the reason why
doing interviews for me feels so
difficult aside from the fact that I
just have social anxiety in general
what's good because I took mushrooms
just before you started so it worked
we're on this journey together let's go
uh so what what where do we take a step
backwards well I was I was going to say
I mean this leads into the point I was
going to make but what I was going to
say is I mean also just for me I feel
like I
I'm not as good at speaking as I am at
writing that I'm clear in my writing and
because these topics are so difficult to
get our minds around
um it's hard to kind of
get to any real conclusion in real time
it's actually how I started writing my
book
um was just writing for myself I decided
that I needed to spend some time writing
down all of my thoughts in order to get
clear about how I think about them so
you write down a sentence and you think
he's in the in the silence
paragraphs and yeah and you just and
then I see if that makes sense and then
I check it with my intuitions which is
really the scientific process and I
really in many ways I feel like I'm a
physicist at heart all of my inquiry all
of my career everything I'm interested
in actually going back to being a child
it's just deep curiosity about how the
world Works what this place is what it's
made of
how we got here
um just being amazed at the fact that
I'm having an experience over here and
you're having one over there and we're
in this moment of time and
you know what does that all mean my
interest in Consciousness really came
out of originally an interest in physics
and I guess that the two were always
side by side and I didn't really connect
them until I was older but
um I've always been really interested in
just understanding the nature of reality
before I even had language to describe
you talked about sort of laying down and
looking up at the stars and yeah sort of
trying to let go of the intuition that
there's a ground below us yeah which is
a really interesting exercise and
there's many exercises of this sort you
can do but that's a really good one well
and I think you know scientists and
children who are who will become
scientists or just kind of scientists at
heart really enjoy that feeling of
breaking through their intuitions and I
remember the first time it happened
actually I was
um playing with marbles and you know
marbles have all these different shapes
each one is unique and they're all the
it looks like there's liquid inside them
and I remember asking my father how they
got the liquid inside the glass ball and
he said actually it's solid all the way
through It's All Glass
and I had such a hard time imagine it
just didn't seem right to me I was very
young when I but he he's a complicated
person but he was wonderful in this way
and that he would kind of entertain my
curiosity and so he's he said let's
let's open them up and he got a towel
and we put the marbles on the towel and
got a hammer and he smashed them all and
lo and behold it was all glass and I
remember it's like the first time I had
that feeling of
realizing wow the truth was so different
from what I expected and I like that
feeling and of course we need to be able
to do that to understand that the Earth
is flat to understand the germ theory of
disease to understand long processes in
nature like Evolution I mean we just can
never really Intuit that we share genes
with ants did you just say the Earth is
flat I mean the Earth is not flat did I
say that yeah this is great but I
actually like to think about see this is
why I need to write and not speak well I
actually really like uh you know
conspiracy theories and so on I really
like flat Earth uh people that believe
the Earth is flat or yeah not believe
but argue for the Earth is flat I well
it's interesting because you can see I
mean the intuition is so strong I just
said it the thing I love about folks who
argue for Flat Earth is they are
thinking
deeply they're questioning actually what
has now become intuition are it's it's
become the mainstream narrative that the
Earth is round where people actually
don't
you know yeah don't think actually how
crazy it is that the Earth is round
right we're in a ball yeah yeah and like
that's exactly what you're doing you're
looking out at the space it's really
humbling because I think the basic
intuition when you're walking around the
ground you kind of there's a underlying
belief that Earth is the center of the
universe there's a kind of feeling yeah
like this is the only world that exists
and you kind of know that there's a huge
Universe out there but you don't really
load that information in right I think
right flat earthers are really
contending with those idea with those
big Ideas yeah no and I think I mean the
truth is that when those observations
were first made when the celestial
observations were made that revealed
this fact to us I can't remember how
long it took but I think it was close to
100 years before
it was actually accepted as common
knowledge that we're no longer the
center of the universe or of course we
never were but and and that's true
almost every time we have a breakthrough
like that that challenges our intuitions
there's usually a period of time
um where we have to and and this is an
important part of the process because
often our intuitions give us good
information and so when the science goes
against when our scientific observations
go against our intuitions it's important
for us to
let that in and to see you know which
side is going to win and once it's clear
that the evidence is winning
um then there's this period of time
where we have to Grapple with our
intuitions and shift the way we frame
our world view and go through that
process but free will Free Will is a
hard one so it's a hard one so here we
are still you know in Consciousness
studies pretty stuck at least in terms
of the neuroscience and so that's why I
started thinking more deeply about that
that's why a lot of scientists right now
are actually interested in studying
Consciousness
um where it was very taboo before and so
we're at this really interesting turning
point and and it's wonderful but I it
will require that we shake up our
intuitions a bit and reframe some things
and look at what the Neuroscience is
telling us and there are a lot of
questions we have more questions than
answers but I think it's time I think
we're going to make progress in
Consciousness studies we need to start
really looking at the Illusions and
false intuitions that are getting in our
way do you think studying the brain can
give us clues about free like some of
these absolutely I think it already has
and I think many facts that have come
out of Neuroscience are still barely
seeping into the culture I mean they're
we're I think this is going to be a long
process so so part of my work is really
just looking at areas where we already
know some of our intuitions are wrong
and
starting to accept them and starting to
let them in and starting to ask
questions about what does this mean then
about the nature of Consciousness let's
try to actually get into this at this
question of Free Will and conscious will
I I have my intuitions here are I mean
I'm a human being yeah it's it's really
I mean I approached it from two aspects
from one is a human being and two from a
robotics perspective right right and I
wonder how big the gap between the two
is
um and that's that's a useful from an
engineering perspective is another
perspective that's useful and helpful to
take on this it's like are we really so
different you and I the robot and and
the human uh you'd like to believe so
but you don't exactly see where the
differences Research into Ai and just
the fact that it's entered our
Consciousness at the level of of stories
and film and and all of these questions
that it's raising
um is facing us with that it's almost
like the zombie experiment experiment is
coming to life for us you know we're
we're more and more looking at
human-like
systems and wondering is there an
experience in there and how can we
figure that out
um when you were talking about your
experience of looking at robots it
reminds me of how I for many years have
been looking at plants
um because the plant behavior and
actually this is the example maybe we'll
just try it out it may not work this is
an example I was thinking of recently
because I was reading back on the work
of Mark Jaffe who did this research with
P10 rules I'm sure he did many other
plant studies but this is the one I was
reading about and I'm hoping this
analogy I'll just set it up I'm hoping
that this analogy will be something that
we can keep coming back to as we move
forward because we you know as we shake
up our intuitions and get confused and
then our in we come back to our
intuitions and say no that just can't be
I think this analogy might might be
helpful but what kind of plant was he
working on uh P tendrils so p a p plant
has these tendrils you can you can
picture them they they
um coil
so
I don't I don't know what year this
research was done I'm I'm guessing in
the 80s but you know some but P10 just
have been around long before that yes of
course
right
P tendrils as a system
generally there are a few more things
they can do but generally they can
behave in two ways they can grow in a
straight line slowly
or they can grow in this coil form more
quickly
and what happens is when they are
growing in a straight Manner and they
encounter a branch or a pole or
something else that it can wrap itself
around to gain more stability when it
senses a branch there that gives it the
cue to start growing at a more rapid
pace and to start coiling instead of
growing straight so it has these two
behaviors as a system it's capable of
growing straight and it's capable of
coiling
one interesting thing actually I'll just
add this it's not totally relevant but
one interesting thing is
um Mark jaffe's work so he um cut a P10
drill he was curious to see if it could
do this on its own separate from the
rest of the plant so he cut a pitendril
off the plant
um if you keep it in a moist warm
environment it will continue to to
behave in these ways so it will continue
to coil if he he noticed that if he
touched one end of it if he rubbed one
side of it that gave it enough of a cue
that it would start to coil and then he
noticed that it needed light to perform
this action so in the dark when he
rubbed the the edge of the tendril it
did not coil
um in the light it would and then he
recognized this further fact which was
that the P tendril that he rubbed in the
dark that was still straight if he
brought it out into the light and this
could be hours later it would start to
coil it has a primitive form of memory
where it's it's has the sensation and
then it holds on to that information and
as soon as there's light it acts on that
but also in the kind of distributed
intelligence because you can separate it
from the main
right in the main part right like if you
chop off a human arm it's not gonna
right keep
growing even if you keep it in a moist
warm environment it's not going to reach
out for the cup of coffee when you come
in with Starbucks maybe maybe in the
correct environment maybe we just
haven't found the environment but anyway
that's pretty amazing so that's the
separate fact but anyway so so if you
just use the analogy of a p tendril and
if you imagine which is something I like
to do a lot if you imagine
um this plant has some kind of conscious
experience of course it doesn't have
complex thought it doesn't have anything
like a human experience but if it were
possible for a plant to have some felt
experience you can imagine that when it
comes into contact with a branch and
starts to coil that that feeling could
be one of deciding to do that or that it
feels good to do that or kind of wanting
I mean it's that's too complex that's
that's anthropomorphizing but there's a
way in which you could imagine this P
tendril under those circumstances
suddenly wants to start coiling so
you're saying you try to meditate potato
what it's like to be a p tendril a plant
like that's what's required here
it's like you have to empathize with a
plant or with another organism that's
not human yeah and you don't actually
need that for this analogy that have the
larger analogy that I'm getting at but I
think that's an interesting piece to
keep in mind that you could imagine that
in nature if there's a conscious
experience associated with a p tendril
that at that moment what that feels like
is
a want to start moving in a different
way so you you want to imagine that
without anthropomorphizing so without
projecting The Human Experience but
rather sort of humbling yourself that
we're just another plant with more
complexity yes like trying to see where
exactly so that yeah that's where I'm
going with this sure so and and when you
start making that connection you can see
where there are a few points at which
there's room for an illusion to come in
for our own feelings of will so when we
move from the P tendril to human
decision making obviously human decision
making human brains are many many many
times more complex than whatever is
going on in a p tendril I mean it is the
brain is actually the most complex thing
we know of in the universe thus far
so there is the genes that help develop
the brain into any particular brain into
what it is they're all the inputs
they're they're countless factors that
we could never I mean it may as well be
an infinite number of factors and then
in that particular moment whatever the
inputs are to a brain the brain is
capable of almost an infinite number of
outputs right so if you if I walked in
here this morning and you said um would
you like water or tea
um and that's you know simple decision
for me massive aggressive way of telling
me I should have offered
some tea but yes go on no I wanted water
okay all right I actually asked for
water okay all right and you didn't have
any free will anyway so it doesn't
matter I don't I don't hope you're
responsible for any of it exactly I was
just running an algorithm
so deterministically you can you give me
this decision right to make water or tea
go back to the pizza for a second a p
tendril is capable of growing in a
straight line slowly or in a coil
quickly
um my brain is capable of all kinds of
responses to that question even though
you've given me you know two options you
could offer me water or tea and I could
just run out of the room screaming if I
wanted to right happens to me all the
time never mind I don't want to do this
yes the fact that the brain is capable
that there's so many inputs and then the
brain is capable of so many outputs as a
system what it's hard for us to get our
minds around is that it may not be
capable of any behavior in every moment
in time so as a system it's capable of
doing all kinds of things
and the points I'm making is that
if we could see all of the factors
leading up to the moment where I chose
water or where I ran screaming from the
room
um we could in fact see that there's
there was no other Behavior I was going
to or could have exhibited in that
moment in the same way that when the P
tendril hits the branch it starts
coiling there's a parallel which is very
interesting in robotics with with fish
and water so you could see they've
experienced with like dead fish and they
keep swimming so
the fish is capable of all kinds of
complicated movements as a system but
in any one moment the river the full
complexity of the River defines the
actual movement of the fish that's
sufficient well and I I should also I
mean this brings up another point which
is that there is a difference between
voluntary and involuntary Behavior so of
course we have reflexes and it is a
different there's different brain
processing in action when I make a
decision about water or tea then there
is you know if my behavior is forced
from the outside or if I have a brain
tumor that's causing me to make certain
decisions or feel certain feelings and
so
um the point is that at bottom it's all
brain processing and behavior but the
reason why certain actions feel willed
there's a good reason why it feels that
way
and it's to distinguish our own
self-generated behavior based on
thinking and you know possibly weighing
the different results of different
things I already had caffeine today I
don't want more you know they're all
these
um processes things that we can point to
and things that we can't things I'm
affected by at a subconscious level
um
and that is very different from an
unwilled action or reflex or something
like that and so some some people I can
imagine I haven't used the P tendril
example but I can imagine they wouldn't
like that because the p tendril
um sounds more to them like a reflex and
that doesn't address the question of a
much more complex
decision-making process but I think at
bottom
um that is that is what it is and that's
really where the illusion of Free Will
and the illusion of self which I think
is they're kind of two sides of the same
coin come from so even when we
intellectually understand
that everything we're feeling everything
we're doing is is based on our brain
processing and brain Behavior if you're
a physicalist you you've bought into
that
um even when you intellectually
understand that we and I could include
myself in this we still have this
feeling that there's something that
stands outside of the brain processing
that can intervene and that's the
illusion
I was tweeting with someone recently
which I almost never do but we're
working in the Ted documentary that I'm
making right now we're working on the
episode on free will so I was allowing
myself to go back and forth in a way
that I don't usually on Twitter like
argue without free will it was it was a
friendly debate gonna go into the
reasons why I'm not crazy about Twitter
but let's leave that for another time
I mean talk about how hard it is to have
this conversation when we have as many
hours as as we like you know trying to
do it in sound bites over Twitter see I
like how you made the decision now not
to talk about Twitter that's uh well my
brain Road Less Traveled that was one of
the things I I said to this person was
um because someone someone chimed in and
said you said I what do you mean by I
and and so actually that's another point
I could make which is
um first my response to that was well
people tend to get creeped out when I
say the system that is my brain and body
that we call Annika recommends you know
why do you get freaked out
Oh you mean like in your personal life
instead of like never saying I yeah
always well you're just being I always
refer to you as the brain and body we
call Lex yes um well I don't know that's
kind of that's kind of charming in a way
alleged brain so I and you are very
useful shorthand even though at some
level they're Illusions
um they're very useful shorthand for the
the system of my brain really and you
know and my body the the whole system
that I is useful for that but the
illusion is when we feel like there's
something outside of that system that
can intervene that is free that's
somehow free from the physical world
um I can have the thought
um yeah I really not crazy about having
intellectual back and forth on Twitter
and then
feel like I decide to not follow that
thought right and the feeling that's
that that's the feeling
um where the illusion comes in because
it really feels as if sure my brain had
that original thought and then I came in
and made a different decision but of
course the truth is it was just further
brain processing that got me to decide
not to go down that path how much is
that feeling of conscious will is
culturally constructed shorthand so like
uh I and you is a is a you could say a
culturally constructed shorthand
how much of that
affects how we think so our parents say
I and you I and you and then we start to
believe in I in you and is that or are
we is that fundamental to the human
brain machine yeah that we I think I
think it goes very deep I think it's
fundamental and I think it probably some
form of feeling like a self goes
as deep as cats and dogs and it's
possible I mean if consciousness
does go down to the level of cells or
however far down you want to take it
worms or I think any any system that's
navigating
um itself that kind of has boundaries
and is navigating itself in the world
um my guess is that it's it's an
intrinsic part of that's why I imagined
that the P tendril would have this
feeling
um and so you know
we use the word I I think you're right
first of all that the way we talk about
things affects our intuitions about them
and how we feel about them and so there
are other cultures who are more open
to breaking through these Illusions than
others for sure just because of their
um their belief sets the way they talk I
mean I'm sure I don't I don't I'm not a
linguist and I don't even speak a second
language so I can't I can't speak to it
but I you know if if there were a
language that
um
that framed
who we are differently in everyday
language I mean in our everyday
communication I would think that would
have an effect yeah language does affect
things I mean just knowing Uh Russian in
the history of the Soviet Union in the
20th century obviously it lived under
communism for a long time so your
conception of individualism is different
and that reflects itself from the
language yeah um you could probably have
this similar kind of thing
within the language
in terms of how we talk about I and we
and so on yeah and I yeah I'm sure
there's like um certain countries or
maybe even villages with certain
dialects that uh
like let go of the individualism that's
inherent yeah I mean there there must be
a range but I do think that it's pretty
deep and I think
um
there's also a difference between the
autobiographical me and then this more
fundamental me that we're talking about
where that I'm pointing to is the
illusion so in my book I talk about if
someone
um wakes up with amnesia if they have
brain injury and suddenly have amnesia
and can't remember anything about their
lives can't remember their name don't
recognize people they're related to
um
they would have lost their
autobiographical self but they would
still feel like an eye they would still
have that basic sense of I'm a person I
mean they'd be speaking that way I don't
remember my name I don't know where I
live
um you still it goes very deep this
feeling that I am a single entity
um that is somehow
not completely Reliant upon the cause
and effect of the physical world can I
ask you a pothead question yeah
um would you
would you
rather lose all your memories or not be
able to make new ones
you get to now I'm asking you as a human
yeah in terms of happiness and
preference
I can't answer that you like both you
like both features of the organism that
you embody well one is intellectual and
one is psychological really I mean I
would have to choose the memories only
because I mean memories of the past yeah
um only because I have children and a
family and it would just be it wouldn't
just be affecting me it would be
affecting them it would just be too
horrible
no but you would make new ones right
if I lost my memory of the 13th are you
think would you you think you would lose
this is a dark question oh wait wasn't
that the question maybe I missed no no
no no you understood it perfectly but
yeah
you you know sorry for the dark question
but the people you love in your life if
you lost all your memory of everything
do you think you would still love them
like you show up you don't know I don't
know to roll the die I mean it would not
in the way that I do right just some
deep aspect of Love is the history you
have together oh absolutely well and
this gets to an interesting point
actually which I think a lot about which
is memory
um and we won't go into this yet but
I'll just plant a flag here memory is
yeah memories um obviously related to
time and time is something that I'm
fascinated with and and for this project
I'm working on now I've mostly been
speaking to physicists who are
interested in Consciousness
um and it's partly because of this link
between memory and time and you know all
of these new fascinating
um theories and thoughts around the
different interpretations of quantum
mechanics and
looking at you know the thing that I've
always been looking for is is really the
fundamental nature of reality and why
my questions about Consciousness lead me
to wonder if Consciousness is a more
fundamental aspect of the universe than
than we previously thought and certainly
I previously thought
um and so memory but memory is is tied
to so many things I mean even
basic functions in nature actually so so
the the pitendril as I mentioned memory
comes into play there and that's so
fascinating
um and there is no sense of self without
memory even if you're starting from
scratch as you said with amnesia
um if you truly couldn't lay down any
new memories
I think you would then that sense of
self would begin to disintegrate because
the sense of self is one of a concrete
entity Through Time
and if each moment if you really were
stuck in the present moment
eternally you'd be basically be
meditating
and in meditation is a very common
experience is losing that sense of self
that sense of free will that those
Illusions
um more easily drop away in meditation
and I would say for most people who
meditate long enough they do drop away
and there's actually an explanation of
the level of the brain as well the
default mode network is circuitry in the
brain that neuroscientists don't
completely understand but no is is
largely largely responsible for this
feeling of being a self and when that
circuit gets quieted down which it does
in meditation and also does
um with the use of psychedelic drugs
um and there are other ways to quiet
down the default mode Network
um people have this experience of losing
this this illusion of being a self they
no longer feel that they're self in the
way that they usually do so there's uh
the autobiographical self is connected
to the the sense of self oh absolutely
through the memory and then you're
thinking that the solution to that lies
in physics not just Neuroscience like
ultimately Consciousness and the
experience the conscious will
is uh a question of physics
I may have said something misleading
because I was connecting too many dots
um that's the things I say are
misleading
um let us mislead each other I just got
I got excited when memory came up
because I love talking about time so you
mentioned a project you working on a
couple times what what's that about uh I
think you said Ted is involved you're
interviewing a bunch of people what's
going on what's the topic
um so I'm working on an audio
documentary about Consciousness
um and it picks up where my book left
off
um so all of the questions that were
still lingering for me um and research
that I still wanted to do I just started
conducting so I've done about 30
interviews so far
um and I it's not totally clear what the
end result will be I'm currently
collaborating with Ted and I'm having a
lot of fun creating a pilot with them
um and so we'll we'll see where it goes
but the idea is that it's a narrated
um documentary it's like a series a
series it'll be a 10 part series it's an
unclear oh you already know the number
of Parts uh sorry in my mind it's a
10-part series Amanda being 8 or 11 or
12. I don't know why listen I'm very
comforted by the number zero and one as
well about ten I like the confidence of
10.
um
so and you're not sure what the title
like not the title but the topic it will
there be Consciousness or something
bigger or something smaller yeah I mean
it's mine so at the end of my book I I
kind of get to the place where I've
convinced myself at least that this
question about whether Consciousness is
fundamental is a legitimate one and then
I just start spending a lot of time
thinking about what that would mean if
it's even possible to study
scientifically
um so I mostly talk to physicists
actually
um because I really think ultimately
this is a question for for physics if
Consciousness is fundamental I think it
needs to be strongly informed by
Neuroscience but
um it's yeah if it's part of the fabric
of reality it is a question for a
physicist so I speak to different
physicists about different
interpretations of quantum mechanics so
getting at the fundamentals so string
theory in many worlds I spoke to Sean
Carroll had a great conversation with
Sean Carroll he's so generous because he
clearly doesn't agree with me about
many things but he has a curious mind
and he's willing to have these
conversations and I was really
interested in understanding many worlds
better and if Consciousness is
fundamental what the implications are
um so I that was where I started
actually was with many worlds and then
uh we had conversations about string
theory and the holographic principle I
spoke to Lee smullen and
um Brian Greene and Jan 11 and Carlo
rivelli actually have you had Carlo on
no no he's he's great also and fun to
talk to because he's just endlessly
curious yeah are you doing audio it's
all audio Yeah but it's in the format of
a documentary so I'm narrating it and
kind of telling the story of what
questions came up for me what I was
interested in exploring and then you
know why I talked to each person I I
talk to by the way I highly recommend
Sean Carroll's mindscape podcast I think
it's called yeah
um it's amazing one of my favorite
things when he interviews physicists
it's great but any topic his aim is but
one of my favorite things is how
frustrated he gets with pan psychism
but he's still like it's like a fly
towards the light for some reason he
can't like make sense of it but like he
still struggles with it and I think
that's the that's the sign of a good
scientist really struggling uh
struggling with these ideas
and yes that's what I appreciate in him
and and many scientists like that who
has the craziest most radical ideas who
you talk with currently so you can go
either direction
you can go like pan psychism
Consciousness permeates everything yeah
I I don't know how far you can go down
that direction or you could uh say that
you know what's the what would be the
other direction that there's a there
isn't real the problem is they're all
crazy they're all crazy
and my own I mean my own thoughts now I
I have to be
um very careful about the words I choose
because
I mean it's it's just like talking about
um the different interpretations of
quantum mechanics it's once you get deep
enough
um it's so counter-intuitive and it's so
beyond anything we understand that they
all sound crazy many worlds sounds crazy
string theory I mean these are things we
just cannot get our minds around really
and so that's kind of that's the realm I
love to live in and love to explore in
and the realm that to my surprise my
interest in Consciousness has taken me
back to can I ask you a question on that
yeah uh just a side tangent how do you
prevent when you're imagining yourself
to be a p tendril how do you prevent
from going crazy I mean this is kind of
the Nietzsche question of like uh you
have to be very careful thinking outside
the Norms of society
because you might fall off like mentally
you're so connected as a human to the
the collective intelligence yeah that in
order to question intuitions you have to
step aside step outside of it for a
brief moment how do you prevent yourself
from going crazy I think I used to think
that was a concern
um and then you can learn so much about
the brain no and I've and I've had and
I've had experiences of deep depression
and I struggled with anxiety my whole
life
I think in order to be a good scientist
and in order to be a truthfully you know
let's say um
to allow yourself to be curious and
honest in your curiosity I think it's
inevitable that lots of ideas and
theories and hypotheses will just sound
crazy and that is always how we've
Advanced science and maybe you know nine
out of ten ideas are crazy and you crazy
meaning they're actually not correct
um
but all of I mean it's as I said all of
the big scientific breakthroughs all of
the truths we've uncovered that are the
um
earth-shattering truths that we uncover
they really do sound crazy at first so I
don't think one necessarily leads to a
type of mental illness I see mental
illness in a very different category and
I think some people
are more susceptible to being
destabilized by this type of thinking
and that might be a legitimate concern
for some people that kind of being
grounded in everyday life
is important for my psychological health
the more time I spend thinking about the
bigger picture and
outside of everyday life the more
happy I I am the more expansive I feel
um I mean it feels it feels nourishing
to me it feels like it makes me more
sane not less well that's a happiness
but in terms of your ability to see the
truth that you can be happy and uh guess
I don't see mental illness necessarily
being linked to Truth Or Not truth so we
were talking about minimizing mental
illness yeah but also truth is a
different dimension so you have to you
can go crazy in both directions you can
uh like you know you could be extremely
happy and they are uh flat earthers you
can believe the Earth is flat right
because there actually I mean I'm sure
there's good books on this but it's
somehow really comforting it's fun and
comforting to believe you've figured out
the thing that everybody else hasn't
figured out I think that's what
conspiracy theories always provide
people why is this so fun is so fun it's
it's except when it's dangerous uh you
know yeah but even then it's probably
fun but then you shouldn't do it because
it's unethical
uh anyway so it's not true I'm not a fan
of following
well that makes one of us I don't know I
there's probably a fascinating story to
what why conspiracy theories are so
um so compelling to us human beings
that's deeper than just fun internet
stuff yeah I'm very interested in why
they're so compelling to some people and
not others I feel like there must be
some difference that at some point will
be able to discover
um yeah yeah and because some people are
just not susceptible to them and some
people are and I wonder really
correlation drawn to them because I feel
like the kind of thinking that allows
for you to be open to conspiracy
theories is also the kind of thinking
that leads to brilliant breakthroughs in
science
sort of willingness to go to Crazy Land
really yeah
see you don't see the connection between
thinking the Earth is flat and
um coming up with this flat is following
your intuitions and not being open to
counter-intuitive ideas it's like it's a
close it's a very closed way of viewing
things saying it's actually it's not the
way you feel there's a there's there's
information that tells us this is
there's something else going on and
that type of person will say no it's
exact it's the way it feels to me no no
but wait a minute there's a mainstream
Narrative of science that says the Earth
is round right like and I think a flat
Earth see I admire the very first step
of a flatter I don't I don't admire the
the full Journey but the first step is
think if you're open to evidence then
the evidence clearly takes you in One
Direction right but you have to ask the
question you have to ask
to me this is like first principles
thinking yeah the earth looks flat so
I'm gonna look around here and I I like
how crazy is it that the Earth is round
and there's a thing called gravity that
operates between objects that's
related to the mass of the object right
that's crazy yes the truth is often
crazier than what what the situation
feels it could be a good step is to
question what everyone is saying and
then I know what you mean to be
skeptical about the it's the authority
yeah but I think that the and the
authority in not in some kind of weird
uh current where everyone questions
institutions but more like the authority
of the senior scientists the the junior
scientists coming up wait a minute why
have we been doing things this way and
that that first step I feel like
that rebelliousness or that
open-mindedness or maybe like resistance
to or maybe curiosity that's uh
uh that is not affected by whatever the
mainstream science says of today yes I
feel like
mainstream science has never been
mainstream and it's always a struggle
for science to become mainstream it's
part of the reason why I started doing
the work I did actually helping
scientists make their work more
accessible is that
it's usually not yeah it's usually not
here's advice for scientists be more
interesting and much more important be
less arrogant
so arrogance uh there's a there's a uh
there's very little money in science and
so everyone is fighting for that money
and they become more and more arrogant
and siled I don't know why I will say
that the scientists I know and some of
them are very well known very famous
scientists are the least arrogant people
I've ever met that scientists in general
their personalities are
more open more humble more likely to say
they say they just don't know
because I've been involved a lot in the
science writing and how the media
portrays so one of scientists the
scientific community's greatest
frustration
is how their work gets presented in the
media
and a lot of the time that is the for I
would say that's the main frustration is
there's some new breakthrough there's
something and the scientists will be
saying we're not sure where you know
it's going to take five years and the me
you know no one likes to write a story
about something that may or may not be
true they think it's true they're going
to take five years testing it and so the
headline will be
neuroscientists discovered you know they
want The Sensational and so I think the
public often gets the false impression
that the scientists are arrogant and I
really don't find that to be the case
and I've worked with all kinds of people
artists and
my life path has has taken a
strange you've met some incredible
people you work with some incredible
people so let's the the crazy topic of
free will I mean I just we have to link
up on this because okay
uh so the plant all right can you can
you try to steal man the case that
there's something really special about
humans
that there is a fundamental difference
between us and the the P tendril you
know humans are clearly very special in
the evolution of organisms on Earth
absolutely yeah could that have been the
magic leap
could Consciousness been like the
invention of the the eukaryotic cell or
something like that well then I mean so
I have to get clear on what you're
asking so so are you
are you coming from a place of wondering
if we are the only conscious mammals yes
do you really think that's a question
can you make a case for it
do you really think that's a question
take one step back we look out at the
universe
um at this point in in our scientific
understanding we know that essentially
if we're all made of the same
ingredients right they're they're atoms
in the universe doing their thing they
find themselves in different
configurations based on the laws of
physics
um and then the question is if we look
out at all of the configurations of
atoms in the universe and ask
which of these entail conscious
experiences which of these have a felt
experience of being the matter they are
and there are really only two broadly
speaking they're really only two
um assumptions to make here and the
first one is the one that science has
has taken and that I have for most of my
career as well and that in many ways
makes the most sense which is
electrons aren't conscious tables aren't
there's no felt experience there but at
a certain point in complex processing
um that processing entails an experience
of being that processing now that that's
just a fascinating fact all on its own
and I love to spend time thinking about
that but the so the question is does
Consciousness Arise at some point are
some of these collections of atoms
conscious
um or are all of them because we know
the answer isn't none you know I know
that I'm at least having a conscious
experience I know the conscious
experiences exist in the universe
um
and so the answer isn't none so so the
answer has to be all or some and this is
a starting assumption that you're really
kind of forced to to make and that it's
all or some all or some I would say one
is some also we either need an
explanation for why there's
non-conscious matter in the universe and
then something happens for Consciousness
to come into being or it's part of the
fundamental nature of reality
it's also
if Consciousness is a fundamental
property of reality it could also choose
to not reveal itself until a certain
complexity of organism
I'm not sure what that means I'm not
sure what that means either like like
the flame of Consciousness does not
start burning on until
um a certain complexity of organisms
able to reveal I don't think we can look
at Consciousness that way I don't think
um I mean many people like to try to
make that argument that it's a spectrum
why do we have to say all or nothing
maybe and I agree that I actually think
it is a spectrum
um but it's a spectrum of content not of
Consciousness itself so
um you know if a worm has some level of
conscious experience it is extremely
minimal something we could never imagine
being having the complex experience you
and I have
um maybe some felt sensation of pressure
or heat or something super basic right
so there's there's this range or even if
you just think of an infant you know
like the first the moment an infant
becomes conscious what that there's a
very very minimal experience of inputs
of sound and light and whatever it is
um and so there's a spectrum of content
there's a spectrum of how much
um a system is consciously experiencing
but there's a moment at which you get on
the Spectrum and that's and I truly
believe that that piece of it is binary
so if there's no conscious experience
there is no consciousness you can't say
Consciousness is there it just hasn't
lit its flame yet if Consciousness is
there there's an experience there by
definition it has to Arise at some point
or it has to always be there is it
possible to make the case that that
arising happens first
for the first time ever with homo
sapiens
I think that is extremely unlikely what
I think is
more possible based on what we
understand about the brain is that it
arises in brains or nervous systems
um and so then we're talking about flies
and bees and all kinds of things that
kind of fall out of our
our intuitions for whether they could be
conscious or not but I think
especially once you talk about
more complex brains with many many more
neurons when you're talking about cats
and dogs and dolphins
um it's very hard to see how there would
be a difference
between humans and other mammals in
terms of Consciousness was there
difference in terms of intelligence
between humans and other mammals sure
not but like a fundamental leap in
intelligence it's hard to say
definitively I mean it depends on you
know
how you define intelligence and all
kinds of things but obviously humans are
unique and capable of all kinds of
things that no other mammals are capable
of and there are important differences
and I don't think you need any magical
intervention of something outside of the
physical world to explain it and the way
I think about consciousness
I actually think it's part of the reason
we're mistaken about consciousness
is because we are special in the ways
that we're special and because we're
complex creatures we have these complex
brains so I think we should probably get
into some of the details of why I think
um we're confused about what
Consciousness is yes but just to finish
this point
I think
that we don't actually have any evidence
that consciousness
is complex that it comes out of complex
processing that it's required for
complex processing and I think we've
made this anthropomorphic mistake
because we are conscious and it's very
hard to to get evidence it's one of the
things that makes Consciousness unique
and mysterious and why I'm fascinated
with it is it's the one thing in nature
that we can't get conclusive evidence of
from the outside we can buy analogy you
know you're behaving
basically the same way I behave more or
less
um you talk about your conscious
experiences and therefore I just
extrapolate from that that you're having
a felt experience in the way I am and
and we can do that throughout nature
well there's no physical evidence
there's nothing we can observe from the
outside that will give us conclusive
proof that Consciousness is there and so
I think we've made this leap to
because we're conscious and because
we're unique and special and
um complex and intelligent in the way
that we are and because we don't have an
intuition that anything else is
conscious or we have no feedback about
it we've made this assumption that
Consciousness that those things aren't
conscious and felt experience does not
exist out there in in other atoms and
and forms of life even but especially
not inanimate objects
um and therefore consciousness
is somehow tied to these other things
that make us unique that consciousness
arises when there is this complex
processing when there is and there's we
can talk about the evolution argument
too which I think is super interesting
to get into and I'm hoping to talk to
Ri