Kind: captions
Language: en
you could be the seventh best player in
the whole world like literally seven
best player but if you're playing with
the other six you're the sucker you are
you are the like the worst player in the
game right so like there's a lot of
players
for example like the Dan bilzerians of
the world right he's not a top level
player like you know these guys you see
on TV but he probably makes more money
than they do because he plays with
people that are far below his skill
level so part of the part of the skill
of being a poker player is finding
situations where you're profitable you
know regardless of your skill level
the following is a conversation with
Daniel negrano one of the greatest poker
players of all time this is the Lex
Friedman podcast to support it please
check out our sponsors in the
description and now dear friends here's
Daniel negrono
everything everyone does at the poker
table conveys information so let me ask
sort of the big overview question what
are the various sources of information
that you project and others project at
the table that convey information well
there's several different things there's
the ones that are conscious and then
there's the ones that are subconscious
right like on the conscious level it
might be something someone says right
you know you ask them a question and
they say oh you know you shouldn't call
me here you should so there's the verbal
tells there's also the more you know
subconscious stuff body posture right
the eyes the throat the pulse
um various things that are you know less
controllable I find I use a combination
of both to try to gain information but
generally when I have somebody more
comfortable they give off more when like
everyone has a different approach Phil
Ivey likes to intimidate I go the other
way I want my opponents to be relaxed so
that they'll give me more in that regard
so Phil Ivey likes to perturb the system
like mess with it to see what comes out
I think Phil has an aura about him where
he wants you to know that he's watching
you be afraid be uncomfortable because
when you're uncomfortable I got you
right and that's sort of his shtick
where he you know and people do like
when you sit at a table with Phil Ivey
it's it's intimidating he likes to rule
by fear and you like to rule by uh what
is it love that's a really good way to
put it I never had anyone put it like
that but it makes a lot of sense yeah
you know fear Phil Ivy and then with me
it's fine don't worry I'll take your
money but you're gonna enjoy it it's
great so that's what the talking at the
table is about us get him to be relaxed
and get some of that gray area between
the Consciousness and the subconscious
to reveal something yeah there's that
too and also just you know and this is
just part of who I am anyway like I like
to talk to people but one of the
byproducts is the more I know about you
the more I likely know about how you
think about different situations right
so what do you do for a living oh I'm a
lawyer I defend criminals okay so this
guy probably spends a lot of his time
twisting the truth trying to find you
know and then so then you know you
already have a mindset of like this guy
might be more likely to Bluff or he's
probably comfortable doing that very
subtle things like that and you start to
uh pick up cues on what nervousness
looks like for this person what the
nervousness communicates all that kind
of stuff so we're talking about physical
test here
the secondary thing though I was more
specific like player profiling right
instead of understanding the type of
mind that I'm dealing with right
um so again somebody who's a lawyer is
is used to trying is is fine with being
deceptive as part of a game right
whereas maybe somebody's a Sunday school
teacher and you know they don't feel
comfortable they maybe they think
bluffing might be dishonest right so
they're less likely to try some
Shenanigans against you so and then the
other thing too is what type of person
is this in terms of their
um you know out like view on life right
are they positive do they feel like
things go their way or they're not right
there's those people that always well of
course I lost I always lose with this
hand and those types of people you can
manipulate because when a card comes
that you don't you don't have them beat
right but you can pretend because
they'll believe it like of course you
beat me so you bet all your chips
against them knowing that you can scare
them because they're they they already
feel like they're gonna lose the
inherent like the cynicism exact
cynicism is easier to play against
because you can convince them that their
cards suck yeah when somebody believes
that they're a loser or they're unlucky
right and that bad things happen to them
always and they never catch a break well
you know you can just help them make it
true
what do you think about the rounders
Teddy KGB when he does the Oreo tell do
players at the high level communicate
that kind of stuff do you think it's
realistic to be able to have a tell like
this that's partially subconscious so
first of all I love Brian koppelman who
made the film and uh I think what they
were going for is something obvious to
the general visually right like okay
it's very clear you know he eats the
cookie he doesn't eat the cookie and it
means one or the other at the highest
levels something that you know blatant
you're not gonna find you're going to
find a lot more subtle things maybe with
posture or or timing or you know
different things like that but at the
lower levels you know you know you might
see some you might see you know with a
lot of people when they're in a hand and
they've bet whether they drink water in
the hand is going to tell you something
generally speaking it's such an intimate
part of the human experience that I feel
like if you have food you're going to
reveal something about yourself through
the way you eat I feel like that's a
dangerous thing to have with the table
well the thing is generally speaking
people don't eat food in the middle of a
hand like they're not gonna bet and then
just like I need a burger right what
they will do though is you know they bet
and it's up to you and then they're
whether they're on you know
uncomfortable or they do it
unconsciously they just want to do
something to make themselves look
relaxed or whatever and you know they
grab a water where they don't really
need it in that moment but they're
trying to take your mind off of the
situation
so they in the movie wanted to show a
simplistic version of something that
does happen something that's visually
sort of uh clear yeah because I think
one of the things rounders got right is
that it's a poker movie right but you
don't have to be great at poker really
understand poker to enjoy the movie and
that you know Oreo cookie tell like
everyone gets that like okay that's
simple if he would have went with
something more subtle you know like
licking your lips or looking to the
right and I think it might have been
lost on the audience and they didn't
actually explicitly
say that that was a tell I don't think
they thought they did everything to let
you know right with the music and slow
motion and he's staring at it and he's
like aha yeah but they didn't actually
say you know this is an obvious tell
like uh my famous characters at the very
end of it yeah you know after he he says
how the fuck did you lay that down
monster right and he's like he's he's
like he's like you're not hungry not
hungry KGB he's like I keep on you know
he sort of references it and then he
takes the cookies he notices he's like
ah he got me and he breaks the you know
the racket well probably if you had that
kind of tell on him you wouldn't in Matt
Damon's character would not reveal well
he says in the movie he says normally I
wouldn't reveal a tale but I don't have
that much time like I've got to Rattle
him some way yeah so that that was one
way to do that how hard is it to do that
to uh in the KGB accent uh to lay down a
monster in those situations in general
how hard is it to lay down a really
strong hand just psychologically yeah no
I mean I think it's incredibly difficult
for the vast majority of people you know
part of what makes professionals really
really good is recognizing a situation
that's very very dangerous and they need
to you know jump ship like what happens
to a lot of players is you get married
to a hand let's say you have pocket aces
which is the best possible hand right
but the board runs out where it's seven
eight nine and then there's a Jack and
then there's a six it's like you have a
great hand to start but you don't
anymore so one of the difficult things
for the average player is you know once
they've put money in cutting their
losses and saying okay let's move on to
the next hand it's very very difficult
thing for a lot of people at every stage
of like pre-flop all the way through be
able to just make a decision on at that
point so yeah essentially not being
attached okay I've already put in forty
thousand dollars in this pot and this
guy's bet another 20. well I mean I got
to get my 40 back right except you know
in some cases you have to reassess
individually this situation and realize
all right well this is a bad investment
so I got to cut my losses by the way I
should I should mention that you have
you have an incredible YouTube channel
where you explain a lot of stuff you do
a podcast you do a lot of really awesome
stuff my probably favorite thing that
you've done is your master class uh that
people should definitely check out
masterclass.com Lux there you go uh no
but it really is
one of my favorite Master Class courses
but also just a great introduction
overview of Poker it's great for people
that like me who are beginners
essentially but it's probably really
good for intermediate people too I mean
there's a lot of really good detail
there anyway what are hand ranges and uh
how do you begin to estimate the range
of hands that your opponents have yeah
so I actually speaking to YouTube I did
a video on specifically this yeah
familiar with Rangers and essentially
you know back in my day the old days we
didn't talk about poker that way we're
like I think he's got this or I think
he's got that right uh nobody thought of
like the range of hands a player can
have so I guess the best example is
Imagine like all the potential hands as
being a part of a grid right so the
first player to act they could have any
one of those hands right anyone randomly
dealt right but let's say now that that
player raised to three thousand dollars
okay well you can eliminate now from
this grid a whole bunch of hands that
this player can no longer have because
if they had a two and a three they
wouldn't do that so you can say okay he
probably has a big pair he has Ace King
you know you've you've narrowed the
range of hands down right now through
every action on the Flop on the turn and
on the river based on the decisions they
make you narrow it down even further so
the range of hands is the whole uh the
entirety of all the possibilities that
this player you believe could have and
sometimes they fool you or they have a
hand that you don't expect them to have
in their range and you know maybe a
little bit uh unorthodox doing some
things you don't expect to throw you off
but a range is essentially all the
possibilities and it Narrows as by the
time before the Flop it's endless player
raises okay it's minimized and now a
player bets the Flop okay it's minimized
further and then by the river you know
you can narrow down the entire range to
you know just maybe even a few hands is
it always shrinking or is there sort of
as you get surprised I mean it's always
just an estimate so is does it ever
expand based on sort of chaotic
unpredicted surprising behavior of the
players it really should never expand
the range of hands should always get
smaller right like again we start with
with the the full the full scope and
then you should factor in like okay
these are all the possible hands you can
have on the Flop now right we can't have
new hands on the turn and if you if you
get to that point where you think oh
well maybe he has this hand then you
then you sort of misjudged his range
prior so you're not thinking clearly it
should always shrink from the full scope
to you know hopefully just a couple well
in that video you'll also talk about it
used to be that you would play your hand
but now you're playing a range that
you're representing a range you're not
even just playing your hand so what does
it mean to represent a certain range
yeah so that's another big thing that's
different about poker from you know my
day to today is that back in our day we
would like put people on one hand like
you probably have King nine or you have
jax or something like that now people
are cognizant of the idea that you could
have an entire range of hands so then
you ask yourself in situations all right
I know what I have but what I could have
in his mind or my opponent's mind is any
one of these hands what would I do with
the entirety of the these hands and so a
lot of people that are trying to play
optimally you know game three optimal
they think in terms of what their range
of hands would do rather than their very
specific hand
so as is bluffing in that context
essentially misrepresenting the range of
hands that you have no is that how you
think about it not exactly because so an
optimal range like if I bet the river if
I'm playing game three optimal a portion
of my range is going to be I have it I
got I got the best hand and a portion of
my range is going to be Bluffs and
they'll be balanced so in theory no
matter what you do okay no matter what
you do if you call or you fold in theory
it's just you're printing a zero as we
say you're not you're not getting
gaining or losing any EV if you were to
do it that way what's EV Eevee is
expected value right so every play that
you make you know it either is going to
in the long run you know make you some
money or it's it's just a losing play
and as a professional you try to make
the fewest amount of minor CV plays you
can and the only reason you would make
these minor CV plays is potentially if
you're trying to set up your opponent
for something later right so I might
make some minor CV plays right so that I
can exploit you later right so you're
building up building up an image a
player profile that's false in some way
something that I'm gonna I'm gonna plant
seeds in your mind so that I can exploit
them later so for example why would
players like show a big Bluff yeah like
what would be the reason for that they
show a big Bluff so that you know
they're capable of it but maybe in their
mind they're never going to do that
again but now they think you know he
bluffed me last time maybe he's doing it
again but that's a what we call like a
level a leveling War because it you know
you can go back and forth with whether
or not okay this guy might know that
like he showed a bluff because he's
never going to Bluff me again so that
that's where it gets a little so that's
a little bit different though when we're
talking about hand Rangers that's
different than
building up a mental model of what your
opponents what your opponents think of
you
and what your opponents think that you
think of them and and so on so forth are
you trying to construct those kinds of
method models and is that separate from
the hand ranges they go hand in hand
right so if any given in a given
situation right my range has this many
value hands and this many Bluffs okay so
in theory if I want to be balanced you
know this is my range and this is what
it looks like I'll bet this 50 of the
time bet this 50 time however if I know
that you
think that I Bluff too much right then
I'm not going to Bluff as much I'm going
to start instead of betting these hands
that I would 50 50. now what I'll do is
I'll do like 70 30 where I'm basically
value betting most of the time against
you you know or vice versa if I know you
always fold because you think I have it
I'm going to Veer the other way and
instead of bluffing fifty percent I left
70 80 percent of the time to take
advantage of your perception of me so to
be successful do you have to construct a
solid model of all the players in the
game or can you ignore them I think it's
really important like when I play I have
in my phone I have a player profile of
everyone that I play with whenever I
pick up whether it's physical tells or
Tendencies they like to you know that
they have
um and overall that's just gonna you
know that's gonna allow you to exploit
more right so like if I played with
somebody I've never played before I'm
probably just going to play optimally or
at least as optimal as I know how until
I start to you know gain some
information on that player so that I can
start to exploit them so what's the when
you say optimally what does optimally
mean versus so Game Theory optimal
versus
um exploitative yeah so that's like sort
of the big debate in poker we call it
for short GTO Game Theory optimal versus
exploitative play so GTO Game Theory
optimal is the idea that no it like I'm
gonna set up my play so that no matter
what you do you cannot exploit me so
essentially that's playing rock paper
scissors right and throwing 33 of each
every time right nothing you do can beat
that nothing you'll never be able to
beat that right exploitative play is
starting to notice that okay well you
know what this guy loves Rock he loves
playing Rock so I'm gonna go pay for a
little more so I'm going to take
advantage of them so I won't be through
but now all of a sudden when I do that
I'm no longer playing optimal because if
you knew that I was making that
adjustment now you can exploit me so
that's where the sort of what we call
the leveling War happens where people
Veer from you know the optimal line of
okay 33 each for each one you can't beat
that but you also can't win with that
either so you're always trying to be at
the at the cutting at the Leading Edge
of sub-optimal play You're yeah you're
going back and forth and listen at the
highest levels like online that these
guys play like they're trying to play
pretty close to like Game Theory optimal
because it's very difficult to do first
of all no human being will ever be able
to compute at the level that computers
can it's just never going to happen so
that's where like the human mind has to
come into play and say all right well
you know if I was playing against the
robot I would do X but I'm not I'm
playing against U so I have to adjust so
this game theory optimal only look at
the the betting and the hands in the
current
hand
or does it look at the history so if you
were to play optimally optimally would
you need to look at the history of the
individual players or just every hand is
taken afresh see that's why I love
playing exploitatively for the most part
because with GTO it anything that's
happened in the past has no bearing on
this situation it's simply based on what
is the optimal play in a vacuum in this
spot whereas exploitatively okay this
guy Bluffs way too much in these spots
so now I can make an adjustment and call
more you know based on past information
GTO doesn't take into account history at
all so like in a tournament how quickly
can you construct a player profile that
you've never played before depends on
the level of the buy-in really right so
the higher the buy-in generally speaking
you can assume if they're professionals
that they're going to have pretty
similar profiles because you know
everyone's playing you know if you're
playing this game well it looks similar
right at the lower levels you know
playing say in a 1 000 or 1500 buying or
less you know within a half an hour an
hour I have an idea of all right just by
seeing how some players played a few
hands that you know so here's the thing
with pokers like I can see one clue of
what he did and it tells me so much
about what he'll do in a vast number of
scenarios and you're saying at the high
level people don't give too many Clues I
mean well at the highest level is people
are so much more similar in terms of
their style of play they try to find
some kind of balance between the GTO and
now with all that we've seen on TV right
like people get to watch streams and
whatever so you get to watch all the top
players play so if you want to learn how
to play better guess what you do you
copy what they're doing essentially like
oh he's only raising this much I'm gonna
do the same they're betting this much
I'm gonna do the same so as a result
what you end up having is sort of uh
you know every everyone deciding like I
guess it's similar in chess with
openings right people figure out okay
this is an opening this is what you do
and that's it you know and then
everyone's similar to that and then you
have of course the outliers who try to
do things a little differently and
confuse people
it seems like the outliers like we
talked offline the Magnus in order to
win Magnus Carlsen has to play
sub-optimally in the openings to to take
it take his opponents out of the comfort
zone so he can he can play what he calls
Pure Chess as quickly as possible was
just both short and deep calculations
purely you're looking at the board
versus memorized openings and memorized
lines is it the case that
the best poker players are the ones that
are able to at the right time
play really sub-optimally or really
um an orthod or unorthodox yeah
specifically there's one guy who last
year sort of took the poker World by
storm and his name is Michael Adamo and
he was doing things like I said you know
most of the top pros play very similarly
with the way that they you know
construct ranges and their bet sizing
and all these kind of things he was
doing some crazy things that nobody else
was doing so he studied you know sort of
a different form of Poker and it it was
unorthodox and it you know it throws
people off because he's in his comfort
zone with these bet sizes and different
things whereas everyone else they're
they're not well studied in those spots
so as a result of him being unorthodox
he became like a monster and very
difficult to play against because he
really knew what he was doing with it in
tournament or cash games it was
tournaments yeah he was crushing
tournaments he was going against the
norm in terms of what is like you know
this is what you should do as a poker
player in the spot he wasn't doing that
he was doing what he thought was best
and he was doing things outside the norm
that again in a vacuum you could look at
that and you go that that's incorrect
that he should not do that is a
clear-cut mistake even you know the
solvers or the computers or Game Theory
would say this is wrong what he's doing
but it's not wrong if he's doing it in a
way that he's exploiting other players
tendencies so for example with him say
he's playing far too aggressively okay
that's not good unless your opponents
are playing way too passively so if your
opponents are playing passively the
answer is to be more aggressive with
them and that's I think one of the you
know biggest advantages he had was he
was willing to do that
so in a spot where somebody would make
it a thousand he's he's making it twenty
two thousand like what what is this this
makes no sense and then people kind of
know he has nothing but they they're too
afraid to uh call him on it well and
then sometimes what happens is this is
where the leveling comes in you're like
man this guy's crazy he's bluffing like
nuts then he bets to 22 000. and you say
ah I'm taking my stand I call and then
he shows you like you know four of a
kind or something like that yeah so he
gets people out of their comfort zone
and I really enjoy watching him play
he's probably my favorite player to
watch um today watching a guy like that
what aspect of his play have you been
able to incorporate into your own like
what do you learn from that because
you're constantly learning you're
constantly adjusting yeah well no and I
love it and as I said so I think a lot
of players sort of come to the same
conclusions about this is how you play
the spot but he doesn't and I love
watching and thinking in terms of like
why he's doing this and one specific
thing for example is
he's willing to really go for it so in a
spot where let's say he bets 2 000 he
knows he'll get you call 2000 right
but he wants it all he wants it all so
he says you know what I'll give up the
2000 that's guaranteed and I'll bet 50
000. and maybe if you call that now you
know so listen you lose the two thousand
seven eight times but if I get called
for the 50 just once you know I'm
profiting from that and it also sets the
uh you know the template for you to
really sort of be a player that people
are afraid to play against he he knocked
me out in a tournament very early on in
a huge event and he had he was so far
ahead he was one step ahead of my
thought process in hand and he did
something that makes no sense whatsoever
I looked it up on the computer huge
mistake if you will but not a mistake
because he was taking advantage of my
tendency do you remember the cars is it
an example I remember the whole thing
yeah I remember like this yesterday can
you take it like through an example hand
that sure really demonstrates it so I'll
explain the hand here so I uh I'm on the
button and I have Ace King which is a
very good hand and I raise and he calls
from the big blind
the Flop is nine seven five so I have
nothing really here he checks I check
behind the turn card's an ace
he checks I bet half the pot there were
six thousand there I bet three thousand
okay
now this is not a typical thing you see
people do but he raised me to 36 000.
massive raise bigger than the size of
the pot what was the Flop again so nine
seven five okay turn an ace what is he
representing exactly well he could have
a straight he could have three three of
a kind he could have you know aces up he
could have a whole bunch of hands so he
check raises me big to thirty six
thousand I call the bet so now there's
something like 75 000. the river is a
five so the board pairs okay
he thinks for a while and he bets all of
it which is three times the pot he bets
225 000. there's only 75 000 now right
and in theory he should never ever have
a hand that can do that right so he
confused me and I was like okay well
this guy's aggressive he likes to Bluff
and all this kind of stuff so I made the
call with the Ace King and he turned
over six eight so we had a straight
but here's the thing in theory that
River card is bad for him when I call
the turn I have a lot of the time three
of a kind two pair that just made a full
house so he was risking that and the
reason he did it was because he thought
I would perceive him to be bluffing a
lot so he just went for it and it worked
he was able to double up right away and
knock me out of the tournament like an
hour in do you think he thought you
might fold like what I think specific I
think it was it came down to this it's
as simple as this
he was cognizant of His Image as being a
wild aggressive lover right and he was
fully taking advantage of me
knowing that my tendency in these spots
is to be curious and I want to call and
I want to see it so he was fully taking
advantage of the fact that he thought I
would call too often because otherwise
his play makes no sense a small bet a
medium-sized bet those make sense but
the bet that he made
in theory is indefensible it's just like
clearly a mistake but that's why poker's
so fascinating because he makes this
play and it wasn't a mistake it was
Above the Rim that's what it was do you
think he put you on Ace something I
think exactly what he thought I had was
Ace King or something like that you know
oh that is so fun that is so fun that
the two players at such a high level
were able to mess with each other's mind
how how old is he he's young he's in his
20s I feel like that takes a lot of guts
to uh take risks like that well that's
what's great about him he certainly
never accused of not having the guts to
put it in and that's scary to play
against right the easiest opponent to
play against is one who's just
straightforward passive you know not
wild and crazy playing against him he's
going to put you in the blender as we
say
uh how can you control
what you're perceived as representing
what hand you're perceived of as
representing so if we're if the game of
modern poker is
others are representing certain hands
through the information they convey and
you're representing a certain hand range
sorry uh through your play how can you
control that or is that not
is that the wrong way to think about it
but it isn't but laughing in bed sizing
and all that kind of stuff essentially
controlling what others perceive as the
hand range you have
ultimately in terms of like controlling
people's perception of you you can't
fully control it but you can do things
to
um sway it right as I said earlier
showing Bluffs and things like that you
know leads your opponent to think maybe
you do this more often than you're
supposed to or whatever the case may be
but in terms of like controlling
um you know
what your opponent can think about your
hands in certain spots I don't really
think it equates that way it doesn't
really you know I think what people do
when they're playing a hand is they
think in terms of all right
what does my range look like here okay
so my range has value so you you look at
what you know the actual hand you have
secondarily so you say okay well I could
have this I could have this I actually
have this right but I could have all
these hands so my opponent if he's
thinking on a high level he knows I
could have all these hands and I have
this one so what do I do with this one
right in the bigger scope of things I
guess I'm trying to understand
if you're betting isn't a bet pre-flop
your bet doesn't that narrow the hand
ranges doesn't matter what you have
absolutely Narrows the the end
absolutely and if you bet big
combined with the perception of you at
the table doesn't that represent the
hand range uh-huh absolutely so like you
can with betting essentially control
what people estimate you to have sure so
that makes it easy so yeah so that's
that's true so for example one of the
most extreme examples is we have uh we
do there's like there's there's spots
where there's a bit that's considered
polarizing right so
let's say there's a thousand in the pot
and you bet ten thousand which is crazy
big right that's saying one of two
things I either have the absolute best
possible hand or absolutely nothing
because any of the hands in the middle I
wouldn't do that with
so I'm essentially telling you when I
bet that I'm like I either got it or you
know I got I don't have a mediocre hand
like just a pair of nines or a pair of
tens I have a royal flush or I have nine
high so with my bet sizing I can control
how my opponent is perceiving what my
range is going to be so for example you
know similarly if I bet small right well
that could be a lot of hands right that
can represent a big part of my range
the bigger the bet the more uh the
narrower the range apparently the more
polarized it is yeah yeah uh
how far could you get without looking at
your cards do you think how well could
you do
it depends on who I'm playing with right
so if I was playing in a tournament with
mediocre or weak players I think I could
probably do pretty well but even like
world class world class I don't think
you'd have much of a chance really I
mean the question is trying to get at
like how important is it the actual
hands you have versus the the the hands
you're representing right so that's the
question of essentially if you're not
looking at your hand pre-flop you're
basically giving up in a fundamental
Advantage right where you're you're
going to be playing way sub-optimally in
terms of your hand selection right
because you don't look at your hand you
might have a two and a three that's not
good but now you're playing it so you've
invested whatever two three thousand
bucks with absolute garbage and it's
very difficult to climb that hill right
so it's much better to actually look at
your cards and go okay I'll throw away
the two and three and I'll play the ace
King speaking of garbage uh you're
you've said that 10-7 is your favorite
poker hand to place that's still the
case and what aspect of it is that you
enjoy yeah so it's one of those viewer
discretion is advised like 10-7 I've
just noticed throughout my life you know
it's a tendency thing that I've been
lucky with it so so that's just sort of
but it's not like I'm gonna look at 10 7
and go oh wow you know I'm gonna call it
all in or anything like that I'll play
it in situations where it makes sense
but you know it's rare because it's not
a very good hand but is there
some aspect of belief in the magic of
this hand manifests quality of play
so here's the thing it's you know poker
players some have said it's unlucky to
be superstitious but we're all a little
bit superstitious a little bit you know
and so I don't know maybe it is a case
where when I have 10-7 I feel somehow
energetically that you know I'm more
likely to catch something which may
actually make me more apt to be
aggressive and confident in the hand but
but you really shouldn't let yourself do
that like you're not supposed to fall in
love with any specific hands yeah but
you know uncertainty
is ruthless
and so you know the the fact that it's
uh
um a game of Statistics it
it can be too painful for the human
psychology so maybe you have to hold on
to certain superstitions
because you know I mean there's there's
a cold absurdity to the fact that you
can play up you can play extremely well
and still lose
I mean the actually this year you've
played uh what it what is it 50 days of
World Series of Poker and it seems like
at least from the perspective of me
looking at it through the internet it
seems like there's a lot of hands that
you were like 70 30 80 20 uh all in
hands that you just did not we're not
going your way that can sort of break
you mentally absolutely
yeah one of the hardest things
especially about playing because cash
games and tournaments are different one
of the most difficult things about you
know being a tournament player is
resilience because more often than not
like so if there's a tournament with a
thousand people to win the tournament
you have to get all of the chips that
means there's one winner and 999 losers
so it's very rare that you actually like
win all the chips so you're essentially
at some point in every tournament you
play gonna deal with like really bad
luck and disappointment and sometimes
those streaks can have you question
yourself and be introspective about okay
so I think I'm 47 now I think I've
gotten better as time went on between
distinguishing okay am I losing right
now because of bad luck
or is it fundamentally decisions I'm
making are not very good right and
that's one of the hardest things for
anyone who plays poker to get to right
why am I losing am I losing because of
my opponents being better I'm not
playing well or am I losing just because
of luck and because there's so much
variance in poker a lot of players can
be confused with on both sides of the
coin one guy's winning and he thinks
he's great he's really not wait till the
cards break even as we say you know I
think there's a lot of parallels to life
as well you don't if you get screwed
over over and over it's hard to know if
you're doing something wrong
or if it's just bad luck yeah I think
they did a study I remember there was
like a study it was supposed to be
related to gambling but it was mice and
they put them in a little maze and
they'd go down these three tubes and
they go down this one tube and there'd
be cheese right and then they'd go down
again cheese three times in a row there
was cheese there right the next time
there was an electric shock there not
cheese
the rat went you know the mouse went to
to get zapped he got zapped okay came
back he kept going back to get zapped
until he died like he kept going because
he found cheese there he has one there
so he continued to go chase that win
despite it being you know now all of a
sudden not worthwhile till uh till they
died and essentially what they said was
that is essentially how they uh compared
it to like you know the gambling brain
and how people think about gambling
you're chasing the wins you learn too
much you sort of over generalized the
lessons learned from the times you've
won so yeah like beginner's luck can be
detrimental if you if you have some
early luck and you believe that this is
just the way it's supposed to be forever
you know it can put you in a delusional
state where you know you you feel like
I'm I'm just great but no you're not you
were just lucky in the beginning I
actually played poker once in Vegas it
was a uh it wasn't a tournament but it
was a kind of tournament-like style I
already forgot what it was but what I do
remember is I had four of a kind so the
last hand I've ever played
in poker was I got a four of a kind and
there was uh a couple of others with
really strong hands so everybody went
all in and I think you get some kind of
bonus for getting four of a kind bad
beat jackpot yeah so something like this
I apologize if I don't know the details
but I just remember winning a lot of
money and I walked away from the table I
said I'm not playing poker again this is
great because I started to feel like
this is your I started to think even
though I haven't really played poker at
all that I'm I'm good and I was a really
dangerous feeling and everybody was
really mad for walking away from the
table one of the other things is I think
it's interesting about poker 2 is good
is relative right yeah so you could be
the seventh best player in the whole
world like literally seven best player
but if you're playing with the other six
you're the sucker you are you are the
like the worst player in the game right
so like there's a lot of players
for example like the Dan bilzerians of
the world right he's not a top level
player like you know these guys you see
on TV but he probably makes more money
than they do because he plays with
people that are far below his skill
level so part of the part of the skill
of being a poker player is finding
situations where you're profitable you
know regardless of your skill level
another connection to life uh do you
think Dan balzarian is telling the truth
about having made what is it 50 100
million dollars just a huge amount of
money playing poker considering what I
know about the private games
and the types of players who play in
these private games and the stakes that
they play I absolutely believe you know
Dan has made I don't know how many
millions but I you know whether it's 50
whatever but it wouldn't surprise me
that if you play in these games within a
year or you know you find the right
businessman who has way too much Bitcoin
money you know and you know in one night
you take them for 20 million I
absolutely could see it I don't see any
reason why listen where he got his money
initially you know that's up to
interpretation from his father or
whatever but what but has he made a
bunch of money playing poker absolutely
no question do you feel like as somebody
who loves the game do you think there's
something almost ethically wrong in
playing people much worse than you so
yeah that's a good question because you
know part of the reason I played poker
and wanted to become professional was
like I want to be make my mother proud
right and I don't think she would be
proud of me taking like Grandma Betty's
like last five dollars you know and
again down the street you know sending
her broke and taking her pension check
so I play at the high stakes against
people who can afford it they know who I
am I'm not a hustler I'm not pretending
I'm bad at poker to squeeze in like I
was thinking about this just yesterday
because I played in a game that if I
played that sort of role where a lot of
guys do Pros they sort of play down
their skill level pretend they're just
one of the guys these guys can make 20
30 million dollars in a year
legitimately like I believe that like if
I did that if I said you know what I'm
gonna go down that path get into these
games in La you know and travel and do
all this kind of stuff I can make 20
million a year but it feels a little
greasy right I don't like to kiss
anyone's ass I don't like to ask it for
anyone for a favor or things like that
so but but yeah like
I I feel listen a rich guy who wants to
sit down with a million bucks and get
drunk and lose it I have no empathy for
that I'm like I don't have any moral
qualms with that so if uh Grandma Betty
is a billionaire uh okay give me send it
send it right you know absolutely why
not
um well let me ask you about a tough uh
period of your recent life you had a
rough like we mentioned the World Series
of Poker uh losing 1.1 million dollars
over 48 days what were you going through
mentally during that
so here's the thing you know I do like
you said I do a YouTube Vlog every day
so I kind of share my thoughts and
listen I can edit that thing and keep
out the bad stuff but I think it's more
authentic and genuine to show people the
actual struggles and the pain that I go
through you know without it and I'd say
the one thing I'm most proud of
throughout the entire thing is the
resilience because there are moments you
see me where I'm broken I'm just like I
can't take it I broke a selfie stick
this year like I was filming it because
you know I do for my Vlog I smash the
stick threw it in the corner right it's
just that was my like hit rock bottom
moment and then I put the camera on me
and I was like all right I let people
see it but mentally it was very
difficult because
there was a feeling of hopelessness
where
you can I was making good decisions like
I genuinely felt like I'm playing really
really well but every time my money went
in and my opponent's money went in and
say I was 60 70 80 for about a two week
stretch I lost every one of those and
you start to wonder you're like I can't
win if I never win you know in these
spots so it was difficult luckily I have
you know 20 odd years of experience on
how to deal with it and so as I said I
wake up the next day ready to go it's as
if nothing happened to a certain degree
obviously you know the more the more it
happens in the higher binds like the one
where I broke the selfie stick I lost
500 000 in that tournament right and it
was like the last card it was painful I
think you lost yeah
I think he lost I agree what led up to
the uh selfies the gate like what you
just lost your shit for a like 100
milliseconds
like it was very brief you're just like
what the world wasn't making any sense
like how Mike do I keep losing kind of
thing how did you why did you lose your
shit you should never really think like
this but part of me felt like I deserved
to win this yes right so part of me was
like listen I've lost so many in the
last two weeks all right let you know
the poker Gods be kind to me right now
let me win this and it looked good yeah
I was in a great situation on the Flop
great situation on the turn I'm about to
be a competitor I'm gonna be a contender
in this tournament to win a big prize
pool and turn the whole thing around
it's all there for the taking and then
boom the last card it just you know it
was a couple weeks of frustration in the
moment of filming that I just had you
know sort of a visceral reaction you
know and I smacked uh smack the selfie
stick and then like I it was I see a
corner it's safe I threw the selfie
stick on the ground and of course social
media blows up about how you know I I
was a violent act yeah you know I mean
it's like if you've never watched Sports
have you never seen a guy on the golf
course smack his club or throw their
helmet like you know there was the
there's a guy Justin bonimo who's a
poker player yeah and he's a super for
lack of a better work offended by
everything and he was equating my
throwing a stick on the ground to
violence against women domestic abuse
and the idea that like this makes women
feel unsafe to play poker and so that
was kind of a running joke for the last
two weeks where every time I sat at a
table the guys would be like oh I feel
unsafe
yeah can you take me through the hand do
you remember what the hand was like what
was the yeah so it was a you know the
player on the button raised David Peters
very aggressive player he went all in
from the Blind and I had a pair of
pocket tens so I went with my tens and
he had Queen ten of Spades so I was good
I have way the best hand and the Flop
was like King nine three one Spade turn
was like the eight of spades so now he
has a flush draw and the river was
another Spade so he caught Spade spade
and he made he made a flush well but
statistically you were winning the whole
time yeah I was winning up until the
last card what did he go all in on was
it a bluff he made what's considered
like a pretty standard play in modern
poker where you know a guy raised and he
was just trying to pick up you know what
was there and he ran into a hand in the
big blind and you know he got lucky so
what was the throughout the strategy of
preparation and strategy of play so
you're playing so many days is are you
trying to ignore the results and stick
to a particular strategy yes for the
most part you know what I'm trying to do
is like if I formulate a strategy for
the whole seven weeks because there's a
very there's a varying degree of buy-ins
too like you have small ones like 1500
then you got like 250 000 buy-in so I
map out
the seven weeks and right I'll give a
little bit of mental energy to the 1500
which means I'll be on my phone I'm not
gonna I don't care as much about this
one but the 250k fully engaged fully
focused you know up against obviously
the higher the buy-in you know super top
competition and you know as far as
strategy goes focusing on each day
playing the best I can not the result
like because if you focus on the result
you're you're focused in the wrong place
your focus should be on the decisions
you actually make right and if you're
making good decisions consistently you
have to continue to do that the
frustrating part is this with poker
unlike chess or other things making the
best possible decision doesn't mean you
win often you lose you don't chest
well as a Magnus Carlson has also talked
about that
there's some
non-deterministic thing about Chess too
given a limited uh cognitive capacity of
the human mind so he he says that the
world championship should have 20 30 40
50 games not not the few that they have
it's too low of a sample so in that
sense the high stakes uh poker
tournaments are very too low sample sure
yeah well when you think of the World
Series of Poker so you like as you said
I lost about one million right in one
tournament that was 500 000. yeah so
then you know like a few others here of
high buying tournaments so the sample or
the amount was
you know 40 50 total tournaments with
you know High variants and if you don't
run well or do well in the highest
buy-ins you know you're going to have a
losing summer
so you did a podcast on the mental game
a few years ago and that's just
something you really care about so what
aspects of the mental gaming poker is
most difficult to master I think the
most difficult thing for people is
self-awareness
right and resilience self-awareness to
know okay so you know again is it am I
am I not doing as well as I could be
because of luck or is there things that
I can learn and I always look to
mistakes as opportunities I really do
when I make a mistake in a poker hand
right call it a breakdown or whatever
that's where breakthroughs happen we're
like oh you know what I could have done
here I could have done this and that
would have been really good and I'm
going to do that going forward so I
think like with anything
um you know when you start out playing
golf like your goal is to just hit the
ball right then you try to hit it in the
air then you're trying to hit it
straight then you're trying to hit it on
the green then you're trying to hit it
closer to the green to the point where
the pros get where you know they're so
finite they're trying to hit it 63 yards
and spin it back three yards they're in
it's imperfect like they don't hit the
perfect shot because the perfect shot
for them is it goes in
but they try and make the mistakes
smaller and smaller and smaller poker is
the same
we all make mistakes consistently the
goal is to minimize especially the big
ones
what was the lowest point for you
psychologically
in poker in general actually maybe it
was this year maybe it was in general do
you remember there was times in your
life speaking of resilience that were
extremely difficult to you mentally
yeah so early on you know as basically
as you know as a teenager I was playing
Toronto and then in my early 20s I'm
like I'm going to Vegas right and I
thought I was the best 21 years old I'm
like check me out right show up with
three thousand dollars 24 hours later
you know money's gone and I remember I
remember the moment vividly it was at
the Binion's Horseshoe it was about
three in the morning I was playing with
seven other people you know I lost my
last chips I went to the bathroom washed
up got out they all left and it was like
a moment where I realized like okay in
Toronto I was the big fish but here they
were playing because of me I was the
sucker I remembered every one of their
faces and then I remember not having
enough money to get back to Budget
Suites where I was staying so
I walked I didn't you know I walked and
in that moment I was thinking about like
is this something that I'll be able to
do am I good enough you know what am I
going to do now I'm in Vegas I don't
know anybody and I have no money right
so that was certainly like what felt
like a low Point walking back behind
paradise and Twain which is not a great
part of town
uh where did you find the the strength
to answer yes to that question that you
can you can still do good I think this
has been sort of a pattern in my life
where like in the evening after it
happens like I don't have it you know I
don't have that feeling of Hope or you
know resilience if you will I'm allowing
myself to experience despair which is
exactly where I'm at but then a good
night's sleep wake up the next morning
and just within me I have that inner
confidence to say you know what fuck it
get back on the hobby horse find a way
make it work right and I do but I do
believe it's really therapeutic and
worthwhile to allow yourself to feel and
vent so many people today the Instagram
culture world I call it it's like they
want to act like they're perfect nothing
bothers them bullshit right you're
pissed off it's okay to show it emotions
fine we all have it there's no reason
you have to suppress it obviously you
don't want to have guys throwing selfie
sticks around the room every time they
lose a pot right yeah but but you know a
little make everybody feel unsafe yeah
exactly that happens so you're saying
there is a culture saying you know stay
positive all this kind of stuff but you
know when you feel despair don't resist
it write it out because it doesn't go
away right that feeling you know you
think you put it away in the pit of your
stomach and you think you know it's gone
it's not it's still there let yourself
go fuck yeah you know it's all right you
know there's nothing wrong with being a
little bit emotional because once you've
experienced it you let it out
now you can move past it yeah and I feel
like as long as your brain chemistry can
support it uh you can usually learn a
good lesson from it like you become
stronger you become more resilient
through it it's really interesting and a
good night's sleep could really help
absolutely yeah so through 2022
and in general what is a perfect day in
the life of Daniel in the ground will
look like when you're
like on a day when you have to play a
big game big tournament game and so on
so like what what time do you wake up
what do you eat for breakfast so my life
is twofold like one when I'm playing
hardcore and one when I'm not and they
look very different right so I'll give
you a quick glimpse of like when I'm not
up at 10
you know breakfast in the gym at noon
you know the post-workout uh meal coffee
uh walk like you know I try to get
that's what I do for cardio you know
it's very like home-bodied I don't leave
the house it's very like boring and
mundane right long distance walk so like
what do you do when you're walking
you're thinking about stuff well no
honestly I just walk on the treadmill I
try to get 15 000 steps a day and I just
walk for basically like an hour while I
watch a show or I'm on the computer or
something like that you know I'm on the
treadmill why walking not running
yeah well I mean I think walking I mean
I do a little bit of running but hardly
any I don't enjoy it like I just like
walking and frankly for fat loss when
it's usually what I'm doing after big
poker tournaments is getting back in
shape that walking's ideal for it right
so so essentially it's like the tale two
during the World Series of Poker
all my sort of structured life thrown
out the window there's no walking
there's very little walking there's very
little working out there's very little
anything I go into the World Series
you know like this year I went in around
157 and I expected to gain about 10
pounds during the World Series not good
pounds wasn't muscle but that's about
what I did 165 and then I spent the next
month trying to you know lose it but
during the World Series when I'm playing
the most important thing without
question that I have to focus on and
this is why I stopped focusing on
working on all this stuff is sleep if
I'm not rested I'm useless if I only get
five six hours and I have to go back the
next day and play 14 hours the chances
of me being at my best very very slim so
sleep is a priority what's the perfect
amount of sleep for you on those days
eight so eight hours is my go-to every
night during the World Series of Poker
it's just not possible because of the
way that it's structured sometimes the
tournaments end at 2 15 a.m I get home
about three o'clock
takes me 30 minutes 40 minutes to get to
sleep so let's say I'm in bed by four
well the tournament said you know two so
I have to get up and whatever so it's
very difficult to get exactly eight a
lot of the time you know and also get
back there in time is there any hacks to
uh quiet the mind
because you're going on a pretty intense
roller coaster mentally when you're
playing
was is there any tricks to getting to
sleep given up I've been very lucky like
I'm blessed I don't know if it's because
of diet or what but I've always been a
very good sleeper you just shut off I
get to sleep and I sleep like a baby you
know and I also nap really well like
during the World Series sometimes
what'll happen is let's say I get
knocked out of one event at 4 P.M and
there's another one that I can jump in
instead of jumping right into it I'll go
into like a private room and take 45
minute nap and you know and give me
enough energy to to continue and sort of
reset my mind yeah and it solves a lot
of problems with the nap too it does
yeah I feel like the nap is is a magical
trick in life
what else diet wise what do you uh your
your mind is going
you know uh pretty intensely all day
yeah so during like like I said when I'm
not playing I'm super regimented you
know I have I literally measure
everything you know I count calories I
count macros I follow it to a t pretty
balanced diet or any I'm a vegan vegan
so it's you know a vegan diet like what
balance in terms of carbs yeah yeah no I
mean I eat a healthy amount I'm doing
probably 150 grams of protein and uh
like 60 grams of fat 50 and then about
and try to measure it all out I do yeah
basically I created a meal plan so what
I did for myself is because I'm really
anal and nerd I made a spreadsheet with
like a day's food and I have six
different ones so I just follow it like
I don't it actually makes my life so
much easier when I don't have to think
about what I'm gonna eat for lunch or
what I mean for dinner I already know
what I'm gonna eat I already wrote it
down and it doesn't get boring because
I'm switching it up every day you know
every six days and again occasionally
I'll you know splurge and do something
different during the World Series of
Poker I eat whatever the fuck I want to
eat damn like it's at 2 A.M I don't
crave like a broccoli carrot salad like
I want chocolate candy and chips so I'll
just do it so you listen to the Cravings
yeah I realized like surprising because
like you're so regimented yeah outside
of that it's really difficult like I've
done it before where I played the World
Series of Poker and I made it a point to
work out every day but what that did was
it sacrificed sleep yeah so then I found
like at 1am I would be more tired you
know because I've spending more energy
than I would otherwise so I essentially
like look at the World Series the six
seven weeks where my body's just gonna
take a beating not like a UFC fighter
yeah like a different kind of beating
and that's okay because I have so much
confidence that within six weeks of just
like eating right and working out I can
get back to where I was it was just
hilarious to me that you'd be eating
chocolate but eating chocolate in bed as
you're trying to get to sleep is this
like literally a bag of like chips or
chocolate yeah like on my way home and
before bed you know just whatever this
is what the professional athlete does at
the uh it's the highest most difficult
event of his career okay so um what else
is there in terms of mental preparation
and uh focus and meditation those kinds
of things leading up to the games is
there anything you like to like any
rituals you you like to follow
so yeah I have dabbled in the past with
like meditation and different things
like that and I know that there's health
benefits to it and I and I understand
that a lot of people get a lot from it
and I've done it for good amount of time
like long periods of time I found that
for me I think it was predominantly
Placebo like it it really wasn't doing
anything yeah for me that I felt like it
was it felt like I was doing something
but I really I didn't see the any
specific results from it so
um so I don't really do that too much
one thing that I will do
for me is bleeding up is there so much
footage now that I'll make it a point to
like watch my opponents and then with
like my phone I'll take notes and I'll
keep track of different things that I'm
seeing and that sort of and then what
I'll do is I'll formulate a game plan
like I'm playing the poker Masters
coming up in about a week and I'll look
to see the Tendencies of what my
opponents are doing and then I'll come
up with like some some things that I'm
gonna do some tricks of the trade if you
will not Game Theory optimal stuff stuff
that I think oh they're making a mistake
here that I can exploit and then I look
to do that in different ways and always
look to you know throw curveballs
how hard is that that process uh do you
enjoy it or is it like really hard work
to analyze the players to try to
understand what are the different holes
what are the different mistakes what are
the strengths to avoid and that kind of
stuff
I think the only thing that makes it
harder is when you're young right you're
in your 20s and you're trying to make
your nest egg you're like you're trying
to make your retirement money you're
hungry right you're like Clubber Lang
and you know the gym you're hungry
whereas you know Rocky's in there take
the pictures and smiling and doing
commercials and stuff like that so I am
47 I'm financially okay I don't need to
win I don't need to compete at the
highest levels so I think it was a boxer
I don't remember which one when I asked
this he was asked the question um you
know how do you get up in the morning
you know still and and do those morning
runs and he says you know what I'll be
honest with you it's a lot more
difficult doing the 4am run in silk
pajamas right it just is right but I've
always been self-motivated and I've
always found a way so it's harder in the
sense of like
it's not a need I can still get by
without it but so in that regard it does
feel like a little bit of work we're
like oh my God that's a lot of footage I
got to get through and I don't know that
I have the timer I don't know that I
want to spend
10 hours of my day doing that when I
could be doing other things I mean what
do you still love about poker when you
said when you enter like the times you
catch yourself just uh
being able to sort of take in the awe of
it
what aspects do you love I think that
like for me I've always been really
competitive but I was never going to be
a professional athlete a professional
snooker player I wasn't good enough at
any of that stuff I didn't have the body
type whatever
um but poker it sort of levels a playing
field right you're six five to forty big
deal you know we're not we're not
fighting here we're we're fighting a
different type of War so the competitive
aspect I also have always been fueled
throughout my career by by doubters so
this is probably unhealthy but every
time people say like you're done you're
washed up you can't win anymore it just
makes me want to prove them wrong yeah
right so I have a little bit of that in
me which again you're reading the
comments and all these kind of like I've
been told many times throughout my
career for the last 15 that I'm done I
can't compete anymore and uh and I and I
enjoy
you know proven them wrong
yeah uh the game has changed so much uh
the the the greats of the past surely
cannot be the grace of the present those
that that that kind of commentary will
continue for every sport and certainly
for poker because poker really changed a
lot over the past couple decades can you
can you speak to how much has changed
yeah because you've been at the top for
so long yeah so complacency is a big
issue for for people who make it if you
will right so in my air of the poker
boom around the early 2000s there was a
group of players who were the big names
the stars of the game well a lot of them
had their egos out out of whack where
they just felt like okay I'm the best
that's it like no there's young guys
learning there's new software there's
solvers there's all these kind of things
and if you're not keeping up then you'll
get surpassed and I remember
myself at a very early age saying I
never want to be that guy and it was one
of my first events in the late 90s I was
the young buck playing with the Tom
mcavois and Brad Dowdy the guys of the
era right and I was doing things more
aggressively and they were scoffing it
all these young kids with their
aggressive three and all this stuff and
they're sort of mocking it you know and
I thought never be that guy always have
the humility to be introspective and
always have the respect for your
opponents that while while you're think
you've got it all figured out they're
learning new things and you can learn
from them so I've always been willing to
sort of swallow my pride and get coached
by younger players who I might even be
better than but they see blind spots
that that I have that I might not and
they you know they help me improve my
game I've always been willing to sort of
look every six months or a year and say
is what I'm doing working and if not how
do I make how do I get better but most
people from my generation
they they go the other way I don't know
they just have this idea that they
figured it all out once you feel like
you've mastered it there's nothing left
to learn that's the moment where
everyone else starts to surpass you
uh that's the moment where you lose the
Mastery uh because it's always evolving
how is the game changed
so the game has changed in terms of the
way people learn it right when I started
out the only way to learn how to play
poker was to sit your ass on the chair
and play in person yes in person play
maybe you jot down hands on a notepad we
didn't even have cell phones back then
right so write I would write notes I
actually brought a notepad and then you
know analyze it and sort of try to
figure it out that way and think about
you know maybe talking to friends and
different players like when I grew up
there was John juwanda Alan Cunningham
and Phil Ivey and we would sort of
create like a little bit of a
masterminding well how would you play
this hand what would you do here that
was a scent that was the extent of it
right we never had the correct answers
we always had theories about what might
be right not until about five six years
ago where everything changed where you
know artificial intelligence created
solvers that will specifically say okay
this is the optimal play this is the
game three optimal play so now it
introduced poker to a whole new group of
like personality types in my day it was
people that were dregs of society that
didn't fit in not College goers with a
degree these are people who were Street
Hustlers playing pool they found poker
you know they had these unique lives
right yeah but now
because poker can be studied much like
you study you know University or college
you had for example the German
contingent who was literally analyzing
data and coming up with strategies based
on this and it's like what you know and
the old guy ack you know got a play by
feel or whatever and they're like
they're learning so I guess the way that
you describe it is like in the old days
it required skill and talent a card
sense right that was the only way to
become good and today that's not the
case good study habits a good work ethic
in that regard can make you like a
really good player even if you aren't
all that talented or gifted part having
a good work ethic is a talent right not
necessarily card sense but if you're
able if you're able to put in the work
and and study from these solvers you
essentially have the perfect study tool
now that you know that we didn't have in
my day so what do the solvers give you
the do you start to memorize the optimal
play for every single hand you you try
your best so again
the solvers are imperfect as well in
terms of the way the humans uh utilize
them right because you can give solvers
a certain number of inputs in terms of
what you want to solve but a solver can
think on many many levels so for example
the way that a typical player would do a
solve is to say okay
what does a solver think is the best
play here but one third pot that
two-thirds pot or bet one and a half
times pot okay you give it three
parameters it comes out with an output
and it tells you what it what you should
do with all the different hands you know
you have however
that's a simplified version of what a
solver would really do because a solver
might decide that seven times the pot is
best 10 of the pot but but when you're
putting in a solve you can only put in
you know specific parameters so that's
why frankly that's typically the number
one-third two-third and one and a half
times pot is what people often do so
they sort of have a gate a vague idea of
what a solver wants but again imperfect
in terms of the uh implementation of it
right and memorizing all the variables
like that King jack off suit with the
King of Diamonds is 13 to no no human
bot brain can do that so what you do is
you bucket it like you bucket it into
say instead of 10 000 variables you have
ten buckets and you say okay with these
hands we do roughly this and we do
roughly this and you try your best to
you know stay within those lines but
again what I love about live poker
partly is that nobody will ever be able
to master Game Theory you know and mimic
a solver but you also have to
incorporate
your position
where you are and uh obviously what
cards you have but also the size of your
stack
how much money you have and also whether
you have the ability or a desire to buy
in all those kinds of things so you have
to calculate all of that right so the
you know so the solver will do that
right and essentially you don't input
your hand
it tells you you'll look at you'll look
at the grade and be like oh this is my
hand and it tells you what it is but it
tells you what you what you would do
with any hand right it gives you the
full output and that actually gives you
a better idea because you're ultimately
like you said
playing a range of hands not not a hand
and the solvers do things that are
really interesting you've seen alphago I
would imagine brilliant film right I
thought and I thought what was
interesting is there was you know
accepted Theory from all the top go
players that this is what you do but the
AI was doing things way different and
they're like this has to be wrong but
really it wasn't so for example a solver
may say this right
you let's say you bet on the end
and you bet a lot and a solver may say
you should fold here with a pair of
kings and a queen kicker
which is you know a pair of kings but
call with a pair of fours and an a
squared so it's essentially telling you
that you should fold this pan that is
much better than this so it it begs the
question why
because what the solvers do is they use
the information of your own cards to
formulate all the possible hands your
opponent can have
so if your opponent is so basically if
you had the king queen
you know it may say
um
for lack of better nerdy term it blocks
potential bluffing hands that your
opponent can have so let's say if your
opponent would Bluff with Queen Jack but
you have a queen so there are less
combinations of Queen Jack so it will
find a better Bluff catcher if you will
so that's what's really not intuitive to
poker players poker players usually
think like well this my hand is pretty
good so I got a call but that's not how
a solver would think solver uses you
know Common Atrix and you know you know
and sometimes it's tough to get the the
good why answers you just did for why a
solver thinks something is better or
maybe in poker it's a little bit easier
but in the case of go and chess it's not
always obvious why
because it's not going to explain stuff
to you but I think what's the I think
one of the best ways to learn poker is
when you see a solver output and it
tells you one of these things try to
figure out why why does this solver do
this why does it want you to call with
this and fold this and try to think
about it on a deeper level and you go
aha probably because this card that I
have here you know changes the range of
my opponent's uh you know potential I'd
love to give your opinion on on your
relationship with solvers because for
example Magnus doesn't use them his team
uses them because he feels like he's
going to rely on it
too much and you can't use it when
you're playing
what you really want is to build up
extremely strong intuition without the
help of a solver is there some aspect of
that that Rings true to you absolutely I
totally can relate to what Magnus is
saying first and foremost because when
solvers was first introduced I didn't
come from that world I didn't I was so
intimidated because I didn't know how to
use it I don't I don't know how to do an
input so I had two guys one guy's a data
scientist and you know and other guys
like a you know poker Savant if you will
and they coached me and they did it so
today if I was in a tough spot you know
and I'm like I don't know what would a
solver do I will send them the hand and
they'll run the solve for me and then
sort of give me the parameters of what
to do when I was playing you know
regularly using solvers with them we
were spending six to eight hours a day
going over all these solves so
intuitively I started to think and learn
about what the solver would want but I
sort of understand where Magnus is
coming from in that you don't want to
become a slave to the Sim as I say right
there's one kid I know I joked with him
his name is Landon Tice and uh you know
he made a play that the Sim you know
would say this is is a good play but I'm
like it's a good play you know in a
simulated World against the robot but
it's not in practice against the human
right you don't need to be doing that so
if you become a slave to the sin and
always do what the Sim says you you're
you're handcuffed to a certain degree is
there some at the highest level plays
there's still a role for feel 100 ocean
absolutely if you're not doing that
because here's the thing right no human
being plays perfectly balanced in game
three optimal like a robot would they're
they're not right so there are
opportunities there to take advantage of
the things that they do that are
slightly too aggressive or less
aggressive you know for example say most
human beings don't Bluff enough in a
certain spot so you don't have to call
with the correct range of hands you
don't have to because they're not
bluffing at the optimal frequency so you
don't have to call the optimal frequency
you'd be making this mistake frankly if
you did
what's the difference between in-person
and online play Given that context yeah
well online poker and live poker it's
the same game right same it's poker but
it's different in so many levels right
um I think playing online you have to
focus far more on fundamentals you know
on Game Theory you don't have the added
bonus of looking across the table and
getting any sense of whether your
opponent is strong or weak they're
bluffing whatever you know and and also
because online poker those that play it
you play far more hands like some of
these guys are playing 10 20 tables at
the same time yeah right so you're just
you're hitting the long run really
quickly and you're creating a database
on your opponents right so let's have
you know online I can see your data I'm
like well this guy he's playing 40 of
hands he's betting the river 80 of the
time so now I can use that data and you
know explain you that way when you play
Live you don't have that
do you enjoy playing online I enjoy so
with online poker I enjoy the
convenience of it because you know you
can be on your couch in your underwear
not leave your house do you also play
multiple games at the same time you do
try to play one game I typically like to
play one or two but I can play up to
four I find that past four uh it's hard
for me to keep up and keep track of
what's actually happening you know it's
a different mindset required like a lot
of these young guys they're accustomed
to 20 tables at a time
it feels like the purity of the game is
gone it's much more robotic right so if
you're playing 20 tables you're just
making decisions based on like what you
know you're not thinking about the the
depth of the situation and what just
happened 15 minutes ago you don't even
know what happened because you can't pay
attention to all that at once
and some of the magic of Poker is the
little sample I agree like for example
in sorry to be bringing up Magnus so
much but there's so much parallel
between the two of you and the poker in
the Chess World
he hates Olympics and World
Championships and all that kind of stuff
because it's so low sample but to me
that's part of the magic of it there's
the World Series of Poker the main event
there's a magic to it I agree yeah and I
don't know what that is exactly because
so much at stake is so rare
so much drama and heartbreak leading up
to it that all somehow uh
yeah it it accumulates to
that magical moment when somebody wins
especially that event the World Series
poker Main Event historically like
that's it you know that's the Pinnacle
that's where like mainstream watches
that's where people are tuning in and
the gravity of the moment you know it's
so much bigger than people like everyone
gets the opportunity to play armchair
quarterback too right oh he should do
this you're not there you're not under
the lights you're not under the pressure
you know it might seem easy for you at
home to be like well yeah because you
can see the whole cards you know they
can't certainly the idea of
the small sample with tournaments I like
the idea that
you don't have to worry about oh well if
I do this now then in the future you
know I won't be balanced I have to be
balanced here or anything like that
that's like really boring and lame right
again that is kind of the way the
younger generation learns how to play
the game being balanced in every spot
um and then randomizing you know like oh
I'm supposed to do this 50 of time okay
so if my left card is red I'll do it and
if it's black I don't so you're not even
making you're no longer making actual
decisions for yourself you're just
randomizing and that's way less fun for
me than tailoring it to the situation
and the final table at the main event
there's none of that you have to I mean
it's It's All or Nothing well you
shouldn't be but there are like again I
think a lot of the young guys they are
thinking in that regard like oh
randomization maybe at that table the
final table at the main event uh what's
a hand that stands out to you that was
especially gutsy and Powerful or
memorable for that you've seen in the
history of Poker well for me the one
that stands out and probably because I
was so young and it was my first year
like one of my well I won a bracelet
that year was I was friends with Scotty
Wynn the prince of Poker and he was
heads up against the guy named Kevin
McBride and I was on the rail you know
I'm like wow he's gonna you know he's
heads up and he was so cool like he had
a mullet but it's perfect right he had
the white shirt the black thing he's
drinking a Michelob smoking a cigarette
whatever you know all chill
he bets it all in the river and the
guy's thinking and he psychologically
owned him and he said he goes with his
beer he goes you call gonna be all over
baby Ah that's right okay so this guy
who was an amateur heard that and was
like there's so much pressure in this
moment right now I can't handle this
pressure but Scotty just told me if I
call here it's the pressure's gone I
don't have to be under it anymore so he
sort of hypnotized them into making the
call you know and Scotty had it Scotty
had you know the Full House and it was
over for the guy you call gonna be all
over baby it was I just I love that
aspect sort of the table talk Dynamic
which isn't as prevalent today as it was
back then
um but that one sticks out and probably
because it was one of my first it's so
uh
the few words you say at the table can
can completely affect a hand like that
that's that's almost that's scary
it was just so cool to me you know like
just how he was so calm and I think that
too added more pressure to the amateur
and I think like Again part of it is
even back then it was 1998 there's still
a big rail of people and there's lights
and they're you know they're filming and
all this kind of stuff and it's a lot of
pressure for a guy who's never been in
this environment and now I'm telling you
it can all be over soon
it will all be over soon just call it's
finished
something about that accent too now
you're a master at table talk as well do
you have
do you just kind of go with your gut
with you flow with it or is there a
deliberate strategy with this sometimes
like there's usually some sort of
strategy that I think about in terms of
what I want to say and whatnot but a lot
of the time I just go I go with it you
know and the more you talk the more
information you get yeah but in some
cases against really good players you're
just giving away information right like
if I'm playing against Phil Ivy I'm not
I'm engaging in anything because he can
read through it he can sense based on
what I'm saying you know the clues and
where I'm trying to take him and he
reads through he sees the tree through
the forest or whatever you want to call
it the forest through the trees and uh
you know so then I would just be like
allowing myself to be exploitable is
some of it just for fun because at the
end of the day if you're having fun you
might be at the top of your game I've
been thinking about this a lot lately
actually it's funny you bring this up
because I've been thinking about when
I'm at my best
and I think I'm at my best when I am
comfortable like that right where I'm
not so stiff yeah and worried about you
know checking properly and worried about
reading people I'm like no I'm me yeah
all right I'm gonna play some book what
do you want to do you want to call me
call go ahead do what you want right
because then I realized you know
ultimately it's like I'm comfortable in
that my opponents aren't as comfortable
enough they're comfortable with this you
know the robot thing but I thought more
about that and how especially with some
tournaments coming up I plan on really
kind of
sort of getting back to my roots in that
regard
I love it from a spectator perspective I
love it but it's also interesting
whenever you see a Daniel on the ground
or quiet
that's an interesting like
um
like it feels like a calm before a storm
of sorts so I'm sure that's also part of
it yeah like I've gone I've been flowed
and like I said you know I took on some
coaches and I was really learning game
theory because I felt like it was
important to always stick you know keep
up with what's going on and then I do
feel like to some degree
it's sort of took away a little bit of
my own
um instinctual ideas in terms of what I
should be doing right so I think like
the most dangerous version of myself is
a deep understanding of the game theory
with my wisdom of many years of and
comfort of just sort of like being
myself at the table and being relaxed as
relaxed letting your mind flow let me
ask you the the greatest the goat
question greatest of all time can you
make the case for a few folks so first
you you tweeted referring to Phil Ivey
as the goat saying the goat doing goat
things that's a recent tweet so uh can
you make the case for Phil Phil Ivey or
maybe who is the greatest poker player
of all time would you put Phil for me
until someone knocks him off the podium
the king of Poker and the goat is Phil
Ivey okay so and the reason I say that
is I think of Poker as more than just
one game right there's different
variants you know this Holdem Omaha stud
triple draw all these different types of
games and Phil in every Arena
has been dominant whether it was
tournament poker dominated it mixed game
high stakes poker in Bobby's room
dominated online poker against all the
Wizards dominated made millions in every
Arena and you know he sort of took a few
years away from poker with his legal
troubles and things like that but he's
back you know he's been playing in the
High Roller series again and you know he
comes from he's Cut From a Different
Cloth but he has a tenacity and a focus
that's unparalleled I think when he's in
the zone I mean for lack and this has
nothing to do with race it really has to
do with mannerism but he does remind me
of like a a combination of Michael
Jordan and Tiger Woods in the way that
he approaches it he's very intense yeah
and he outworks everybody you know and
has I think frankly a lot of his
mannerisms do come from them because
he's young watching these guys on TV and
a lot of his ways of being you know he's
learned behavior I think probably from
from people like people at the top of
their Sport and people that are Tiger
Woods and Michael Jordan aren't just at
the top of their sport but they kind of
dominate support there's some kind of
aura that there's a uniqueness to them
they're not built like us they're not
you know they're not like I wish I I
wish I could have the kind of focus that
Phil Ivey has you know and see
everything that he's saying I just
that's not me you know I I don't have
that and he he does he has that that
Gene whatever it is but they also look
like they're not having that much fun
they're more uh focused on the
Perfection like a dogged pursuit of
perfection and you know that might even
be true it might not be as fun you know
I don't know like I have fun at the
table when you look outwardly look at
someone like maybe he is having a blast
maybe that's just the way that he likes
us like his Tiger Woods having fun when
he's like on 17 about to win a major
doesn't look like it theoretically well
if you look at Michael Jordan I don't
know about Tiger Woods but I think
they're more focused on every single
mistake they make yeah I think they're
more obsessed about not making a mistake
and hating every time they make a
mistake that's probably like 99 of their
mental
uh I think that's part of what makes
them great right they don't look past
the mistake and just let it's whatever
no they're like they they want to
correct it and and yeah there's a
tension almost like a trade-off I wonder
if that's always the case between sort
of greatness and and happiness I
remember huxed who you know when I was a
kid growing up he was like the poker
Idol he won the world championship in
1996 and I was lucky enough to hang out
with him a little bit and he would go
through these streaks where
he had an a game and he had an F game
his a game was unparalleled nobody could
beat him right but his F game was so
terrible that he was just a fish you
know he was playing terribly and I
remember him saying and it was exactly
what you're saying he'd make like one
little mistake
right and then he would go off and I was
like why do you do that like you know
your b game would be just fine he's like
well if I'm gonna make a mistake what's
the point
what's the point right I'm trying like
if you can't play Perfect there's no
point in playing at all yeah so he was
that he was extreme in that regard and
the way that he viewed it and depending
on the sport those folks like in chess
certainly the case they that kind of
mindset can destroy you absolutely no
because a sequence of mistakes
like the kind of year you had with the
World Series of Poker can completely
destroy a human being
if if you're not able to see the bigger
picture of it yeah uh you said that Phil
Ivey is the hardest uh your toughest
opponent the the toughest person to play
against why is that and how do you beat
him well because Phil Ivey's just he's
seeing things that nobody else has seen
really like subtle things where I'm
putting my hands where I'm looking you
know my pulse like stuff that I don't
even know I'm giving off he's so engaged
and so focused and has such a just a
of he's Fearless right A lot of people
you know they'll play poker and be like
you know what I don't think this guy has
it but do they have the guts
do they have the cajones if you will to
actually do anything about it right and
stand up to this person he does you know
I forgot the hand that you tweeted about
the the goat doing goat things but that
wasn't even that big of a goat hand but
like there's hands where like there was
a famous One in Australia where the Flop
was like Jack Jack nine
and Phil check raised the Flop with six
seven nothing just absolutely nothing
and the guy re-raised him right I feel
just new he went all in with nothing if
the guy calls he's done he's cooked but
he was so tuned in that this guy's not
strong that he just you know he did
things like that and it's tough to play
against a guy like that so uh he gets
great reads and is able to execute on
them has the guts to execute on him
he's got experience he's got work ethic
he he also I think one thing I'm
underselling too is his strategic mind
right like I believe that
you know like I said the new age player
they learn how to play through a very
systematic approach okay let's look at
the data the make up a game right now
three cards we each get three cards
Jacks Are Wild sixes are you know six of
Hearts as well right just make up that
game Phil will figure it out intuitively
very very quickly right without having
the answers for him right so that's like
the difference between the players in my
generation we had to figure this stuff
out on our own today oh I want to know
the answer I go ask the computer and the
computer tells me so I really believe
like if you created a game from scratch
that Phil Ivey would be my horse that I
want to play in it
so he is in some sense in tune with some
deeper thing he has what we would what
we used to call card sense card sense
can you try to make the case for some
others like Doyle Brunson Phil Hellmuth
uh Daniel negranu and maybe one of the
modern guys like Justin bonamo or
somebody sure oh so let's start with
Doyle okay like what Doyle has going for
him Above All Above and Beyond is
twofold really longevity I mean he's
eight in his late 80s and last time I
played with him I was how is he getting
better like I really felt like he was
playing better than he had you know in
the previous years
um but also with Doyle like Doyle had to
figure you know we talked about my
generation having to figure it on her
own I mean he they really had to figure
it out like they didn't have any
computer simulation to tell you if Ace
King was a favorite over pocket sixes
they didn't so we know how he did he
would take a deck of cards and they
would deal out sim and they with a
notepad right okay Ace King one and then
they would do like 100 of them be like
all right ace King won like 53 so it
must be a favorite and he did it
manually you know and he did it in a
time when it was very very difficult and
he's seen poker evolve and change
throughout the years now listen is he
gonna be able to compete against the top
players in the world today absolutely
not you know but how many people he's
the I'll carry he's the best 88 year old
player in the world by a mile okay
that's not even close and Doyle again
he's another guy who plays all the games
he's played high stakes cash tournaments
you name it he's iconic you know he's
The Godfather so but there's also an
element to that so the iconic element
like you're a personality in poker I
mean
not to romanticize this thing too much
but
poker is also a game of personalities
I mean it's part of the greatness is
like the uniqueness of the human being
yeah I think also yeah I mean if you
like looking at it from that perspective
in terms of like goat like goat in terms
of what you represent yeah Cowboy The
Godfather you know he's been around you
know he played in the 60s and stuff like
that it's just something like incredibly
cool like I I often think about if I
could go back in time and like visit you
know an era I'd love to go like to Vegas
in the 70s and just like I'm proud I
already like I can think of what it
would smell like probably not ideal
cigarettes and you know the leather
jackets and just the vibe of what it
must have been like with the mobsters
and things like that you know he's lived
through all that all the cool movies
we've seen like Doyle talks about some
of those films and he's like yeah that
guy off he said he was going to stab me
in my stomach you know he he knows these
people it was he's like a a source of
History really yeah when poker was uh a
game
for the mob and the the degenerates and
all that kind of stuff before
transitioning into professional sport
yeah a professional game yeah so he was
there through the whole thing he's been
there through the whole transition he's
seen it all yeah yeah and then to the
online world so uh what about
um
I can't even say without smiling Phil
Hellmuth okay so Phil here's the thing
with Phil he takes it very personal when
I say this
and he doesn't hear the compliment he
only hears the negativity because Phil
wants to be considered the greatest of
all time hashtag positive he wants to be
the greatest of all kinds yes but I'm
like Phil here's the facts you have the
best absolute greatest resume at the
World Series of Poker of anyone in the
world is that not enough right that's
what you have you have that right now do
I think you're the best in the living
holding player in the world today no do
I think that you know you can play high
stakes mixed games with the best players
in the world today and win no right so
he wouldn't get as much Flack on this
topic if he wasn't so boastful and like
you know demanding like you never hear
Phil Ivey say I'm the best in the world
like his peers do right but Phil wants
to make the claim and I simply say
I beg to differ right I beg to differ
like I don't think you are the the best
player in the world if we can Linger on
the compliments so he can hear it uh
what makes him so good because uh it
seems like a lot of times his play is
not optimal yeah he definitely has his
own brand of and style of play right he
does not adhere to he's never used a
solver in his life he doesn't know he's
not in that world right he Phil does
Phil has a lot of faith and a lot of
confidence in what he does and that he
it will be successful and I think
there's something to be said about that
right he doesn't ever lack himself in
belief that he can win and he finds a
way to do it his way and frankly a lot
of what he does is very effective
against specific types of players who
are intimidated by him but whether it's
his resume or his demeanor or his
attitude sometimes right like if you're
an average player and then you know you
you beat Phil in a hand you're going to
hear it this idiot from northern Europe
and beat me in this pot like and for
some people they don't they don't like
that so he can use that uh against them
but I also think too like
he
cares so much
right and that leads to trying really
really hard like he sees these moments
and he doesn't phone him in like
whatever brand of Poker he plays he
tries his best at all times to to
succeed and to win and there's something
to be even though like he's
fundamentally flawed in a lot of things
that he does compared to some of the
bigger players his effort and will and
like his determination to stick around
is you know is is up there and he is
somebody who seems to really hate losing
yes yeah he like you know he he's he's
got a this he feels like he deserves to
win yeah right in all cases and if he
loses it's
you know it's not as he joked around
that you and him might do an anger
management uh
of course
um now this is tough because you're a
humble guy uh but objectively speaking
can you say what your strengths are
you're often listed as one of if not the
greatest player of all time so what what
are the things that make you stand out
so for me when I grew up I admired the
big cash game players because that's
what I was I love tournaments but I
wanted to be well-rounded like in my day
you couldn't make the poker Hall of Fame
if you just played one game you had to
jump into the high stakes games in
Bobby's room as they say right and I was
able to do that when I was in my early
in my mid-20s I was playing four
thousand eight thousand limits you know
you could win or lose a million dollars
in a day so I grinded it out like a lot
of people think oh you know he's lucky
he's had sponsorship otherwise he'd be
broke he's like I built multi-million
dollar bankrolls before any of that
stuff existed and I did it the good
old-fashioned way by sitting my butt on
the table I think probably one of my
biggest strengths is self-awareness and
um in that regard a level of humility
that always allows me to say okay well
you know what in this case with these
players they're better than me so what
am I going to learn from them right
rather than have this need to say I'm
the best because of history and I'm
always looking to guys and go wow he
does this really well whether it's the
adamos or the IVs or whoever it may be
um so my willingness to adapt I think
and stay relevant by learning what the
young guys are learning something I've
always done and I also pride myself on
um again being well-rounded like playing
all the games like I don't feel
intimidated in any game you know
whatever the format is so always being a
scholar of the game as as the game
evolves as the different games of all
the different players of all the culture
evolves always adjusting by being a
scholar having the humility that's
healthy respect for a healthy respect
for the younger generation how they
learn what they learn and what they can
teach me rather than poo poo it and say
oh these kids today because that's what
a lot of people like the Mike Madison's
and the philhealth music My Generation
they just poo poo it because they don't
understand it on a level of one to ten
their level of understanding this is
like a one maybe if I'm being generous
by calling it one they really don't
understand it so they poo poo it right
it's easy to do that like oh that's not
how I do it so that's wrong or that's
stupid or whatever I don't take that
approach I go well let me learn let me
see what what what what there is to this
but that said the crankiness that
matters out and Phil Hellmuth have is is
great to watch especially when they're
on a table with you and uh oh I love it
yeah it's a black and black you're
masterful of being able to get under
this stuff uh what about somebody from
the new school like Justin bonamo who's
who's leading in terms of cash wins is
there somebody like that that stands out
to you as a potential uh goat status
person yeah so there's two different
ones but one is very so they're both
just no limit right so I like again when
I think of Poker I think of you know a
variety of games but there's so many of
the young guys that specialize Michael
Adamo is one that I've mentioned several
times and I love the way that he
approached the game another one that's
highly respected because of his online
prowess and his his people have like
looked and how close he is to Game
Theory and they say he's about as
perfect as you get and it's like a kid
named Linus Linus uh line is Linus love
online Linus linger so he just came
second recently I believe in uh in the
Triton huge Triton so he's primarily an
online player yeah he's an online cash
player for the most part but he plays
him live and he's you know he's again
and I respect the peers that I play with
who say yeah he's he's tough as Nails
there's another kid too
um Russian kid named Timothy kuznetsov
and he plays all the games and he's well
respected
um you know in that regard and same with
a guy like uh Jungle Man Dan Cates who's
a unique personality I mean this guy
showed up won the poker players
championship back-to-back years in a
Randy Macho Man Savage costume and he
was doing Macho Man the entire times oh
yeah I'm gonna take all the chips like I
did last year yeah bust them all and he
was in character for the entirety of the
terms just unique but uh yeah respect
for a lot of those guys
um is it gonna take time to figure out
who
um you know stands the test of time
that's the thing right so a lot of these
kids like there was a guy who beat me uh
heads up in the uh million dollar one
drop I got 8.7 he won 15 million dollars
kid named Dan Coleman he was seen as
like you know the next big thing in
poker right he made his money
just wasn't for him so he's moved on you
know to doing what he's doing skiing in
the Alps whatever he's you know we have
nobody seen in from like five six years
so that can happen right because there
is a lot of burnout you know I think
like I think it was actually uh Gotham
chess who mentioned something about how
difficult it is to like I think it's
true in poker when you get really really
good at something
to get
this much better takes takes so much
work and a lot of people don't
necessarily want to put in that kind of
work in order to do that that's just
even staying at the same level takes a
huge amount of work yeah like so if you
want to get better at chess you're
already like really really good you're
trying to get like one little bit better
you have to study like in a ridiculous
amount you know and again that's once
you've already had I think the toughest
thing for anybody once you've tasted
success and you've already retrieved it
staying hungry staying on the top
reaching the top is much easier than it
is to stay there yeah
over years what's your training regimen
in poker in terms of
how you uh keep improving so you said
you study games but that's mostly
leading up to a particular uh tournament
but is there kind of uh behind the
scenes daily activity trying to do the
kind of overtime
keeps you sharp so for me now that I'm
47 and I feel like
the predominant aspect of my poker game
is going to be in terms of My Success is
going to be my mental state right so I
find it's really really important for me
now at this age to have balance so when
I'm not playing poker and I'm out of it
poker's not even on my radar you're able
to remove it from your mind doing my
fantasy hockey play a little chess you
know play some golf watch watch some
hockey whatever the case may be outside
of the game and then I start to get the
itch like after the World Series of
Poker
the poker door was closed yeah it's all
the time off all of August I didn't play
any poker at all until just recent you
know I started to get the itch again
because I that's what's important for me
is if I don't have the itch and I don't
want to play poker then I'm not going to
be at my best once I start getting the
itch that's when I start to soak okay
let's start watching some of these
streams let's see what my opponents are
up to lately and um you know let's look
at some solvers and different things
like that
and uh you're doing pretty good you came
back and doing pretty good
yeah so far do you like being in front
of the camera through the hell of the
World Series of Poker this year you uh
filmed every single day you did a vlog
does that energize you is that
exhausting because it's really
beneficial to a huge amount of people it
energizes the the poker Community but do
you see it as a service or do you purely
just love it
I've been comfortable on camera since I
was a kid when I was a kid I want to be
an actor like really really young and uh
it was always comfortable in that
environment I think like that gives me a
little bit of an advantage sometimes too
with these filmed events because I'm
comfortable with a mic on and on camera
with the lights and I think a lot of
people maybe aren't with the knowledge
that other people are going to see what
they're doing every day so it's been so
comfortable and easy for me as far as
the World Series goes and the Vlogs and
all the shooting it's kind of
therapeutic for me it is essentially
these essentially my version of
journaling right so there's a lot of
value I think in like at the end of a
day doing a brain dump where you just
write out Journal but doing it on camera
has a similar effect and it also
you know when you when you make a
mistake on your own
you're held accountable to you but when
I have to explain it to what others like
here's what I did and this is the
mistake I made or whatever the case may
be
um it actually I think that helps me you
know yeah so you uh you're held
responsible by a larger audience yeah I
think it's like so like I said listen
I'm 47 I'm my life is good I don't have
to be in this term and if I'm over it I
can just dump my chips off and go home
yeah right but I can't when I'm doing
the Vlog like I have to actually
answer to that you know and keeps me in
line how hard is it to win the main
event of the World Series of Poker
so the main event of the World Series of
Poker is the hardest event to win simply
because of the sheer size of it you know
you're talking seven eight thousand
players right and a lot of landmines and
and frankly
there are so many players you've not
played with before too you play these
high roller events like these super ones
you get 30 40 people you know everybody
right so you have an idea
you sit at the main event there's you
don't know have any idea this guy
wearing a Philadelphia Eagles jersey and
sunglasses and he just raised you big I
don't know I don't know this guy I don't
know what he's about so there's a lot of
like
it's grueling too in your seven eight
days where you're you're in the blender
as you as as you might say so so what's
the structure says ten thousand dollar
buy-in or something like that and
there's a bunch of tables and you just
keep playing as and you like when is it
over for a single table
so the way that it works is this so
there's let's say 8 000 players and the
way the main event Works unique to
others is there's various day ones you
can play right so Day One You're Gonna
Play from noon to like midnight right if
you if you're still in you bag up your
chips and you'll come back for day two
okay there's four different day ones
right now they'll all combine
essentially to plan a day too and at the
end of the night they redraw the tables
so you don't just win your table if
players get knocked out tables break
they continue to be replaced so you
start with a thousand then you know
after day one you've got six thousand
then you do the same you play you know
it's like 12-hour day and you slowly
Whittle down day four day three day four
you're in the money and then you
continue to progress and then what they
do now with the final table is they they
because they were trying to do this for
TV these final tables can take
you know 12 hours to play and what we
were finding was you know you start to
think at 5 pm and it goes till 8 A.M and
like nobody's watching anymore so they
separate separated into three days now
and so you're talking now
it's like six seven days to get to the
final table another three days to play
it so you're under you know you're
you're grinding for
you know week and a half but most of the
time
you're playing against people you've
never played against before especially
early on yeah and then by the end like
who knows you know rarely do you see
100 you usually see some notable names
then in the last 27 you might see one
maybe two final table maybe one but
often it's gonna be you know some
players you've never heard of before is
there strategies that
maximize your likelihood of having a
chance yes absolutely like I think the
World Series of Poker main event is a
unique animal in that you know like we
talk about Game Theory and all that kind
of stuff if you're focused on that when
you're playing you're really not playing
well right you need to just exploit
because you're going to have a lot of
people who see this as a bucket list
item you know they just want to play the
main event in the World Series and they
might be scared they might be nervous or
whatever you don't have to worry about
being balanced right oh you know I have
to make sure that I'm about no you don't
you might know you're playing with this
guy now for three hours you might never
see him again so just make the play that
makes sense for you right so
so yeah you're gonna I approach that
event very differently than I would like
playing against the High Roller players
that I play with does that mean more
aggressive essentially less actually
so when you play against really good
players you have to take
small plus EV scenarios where you push
the envelope and you're playing really
aggressive you're bluffing off your
stack you got to do this you gotta focus
a little bit more on being balanced
because otherwise you know you're not
going to beat these guys whereas if
you're playing with amateurs and you're
playing with regular players for the
most part
risking all your chips on a bluff
probably don't need to do that you don't
need to do that nearly as much you can
probably
slowly but surely build your stack
without taking you know those high risk
High variant situations because you'll
find better situations
what uh mistakes do amateurs usually
make
in tournaments like that are they over
bluffing well I think amateurs generally
the biggest mistake they make is they
think that Pros are bluffing more than
they are
so like a pro will bet all his chips on
the end like I don't know
I mean it's Phil Ivey maybe he's doing
some crazy stuff he's like probably not
yeah he's probably just got it you know
and then they get lose all their money
by calling or going all in as well
um
and so the right things to be more
patient for so amateur is too impatient
well also bad reads so all the amateurs
are built different some of the amateurs
are just too weak and passive they're
just waiting for the nuts you know yeah
and then you know the pros everyone
notices that and then when they make
their big hand they don't get paid
anyway so in order to win the main event
I mean you have to have some components
of your game that are aggressive it's
very unlikely to expect to just get the
cards the whole way and just always have
the best hand you're gonna have to find
ways to win pots that you know where you
don't have the best hand how do you win
the Final Table the final table is
unique now especially because you're
talking about the way that poker Works
in tournaments is that if there's seven
people left and you have just you know
you're very short on chips but if one
other player goes out you just make like
three hundred thousand dollars for
folding like just for sitting out right
the term for that that you know
kids use is ICM independent you know
chip model right where it talks about
the value of each chip where what
happens what we see now is let's say one
guy has a big chip lead
and there's another guy who's second in
chips and there's a couple that are
short these guys in the middle
they just play super tight and they wait
for the little guys to go while the big
stack is just
pounding them because he can afford to
right he knows that people are
handcuffed so let's say I had 10 million
in chips and you have 9 million chips
and these guys have little chips if I go
all in on you are you gonna call me
and risk like you know guaranteed pay
jumps of like moving up a few spots so
really the question comes down to like
are you the type of guy who just wants
to inch up or are you gonna go for it
and you're gonna go for the win I think
ultimately there's some value in being
the guy who says you know I don't care
if I come seventh I'm not worried about
going from Seventh to fifth I'm here to
win and so you're saying like the the
guys that win will often be the ones
that call there so like they're not just
bullying the small Stacks they're well
they're the ones no they're the ones
that are willing to willing to risk it
right so there are some people who you
know if there's
five left
you know and they're third in chips and
there's two guys very short and you you
know they'll have Ace King and someone
moves they'll just fold they fold the
hand because they want to wait for those
two other players to get broke and that
way they let you know they make actual
money so you I guess the thought process
between winning first place and winning
the most amount of money are different
they're conflicting right because in
order to like
when the if you're just if your focus is
only on winning the tournament you will
make mistakes financially where you had
guaranteed income for just folding right
let's say a guy has one chip left you
know one chip and me and you have good
ships and I go all in with you and I
lose now that guy you know got the
guaranteed you know he got the pay jump
that I wouldn't have got so there's some
extremely stupid mistakes you can make
from a financial perspective but it's
often at odds with you know giving
yourself the best chance to actually
come first
and in a tournament especially the main
event especially the final table it's
all about coming in first well I know
because most of the people who make it
so like you know when you play these
high rollers these guys are accustomed
to playing for a hundred thousand two
they're accustomed to this kind of money
so they're gonna play right for the mo
but you're talking about guys who bought
into a ten thousand dollar tournament
maybe never had 100K cash in their life
and now they're sitting there and it's
like one million for fifth and 2 million
for fourth so like they don't want to be
fit they're just gonna sit there
they'll be under more financial pressure
because they're not like your typical
high roller type player are you still
able to uh find the guts to take big
risks yeah see I'm trying to win like I
think that gives me an advantage frankly
where I might make decisions that are
financially sub-optimal
because I'm trying to win but there's
also an inherent advantage to that like
that again something I watched and
learned from a guy like Michael Adamo
where he takes advantage of these people
playing so passively in these spots
where he's like I don't I'm not trying
to come I'm gonna win I'm just gonna
bully bulldoze you because I'm not
worried about you know the small
Financial mistake of you know a page up
what advice could you give to to a
beginning poker players or actually at
every level how to get better how to
improve how to improve their game
obviously as you said it's easiest to
get better in the beginning but what
advice would you give how to get better
so one of the ways I mean I think way
back to how I started right and there's
so many resources and tools available
right now to analyze hands but when you
play right and you find yourself in a
situation or a hand that you're not
really sure about not because you had
aces and went all in and you lost like
that's not interesting but an
interesting situation where you're not
sure what you did jot that jot the hand
down write it out and then either a you
know use some of the tools whether it's
the solvers if you're you know Advanced
enough or ask your group you know like
have a couple friends at your level and
talk through the different decisions and
start to learn that way right because
those mistakes that you make or those
tough those tough hands that's where the
real learning comes from like so that so
basically if you're because you're going
to be in similar scenarios in poker
you're rarely going to have the
identical situation but you'll have
situations that are similar you know you
raised with Ace King someone three bet
another guy goes all in okay well what
do I do in that spot you know it's
you're going to have similar situations
in the future as well so figuring that
out the more you can do that you chop
away at um you know different
strategical mistakes you know you you
used to make that you no longer make are
there resources like your master classes
really is great are there books
so there was a guy named Michael Acevedo
this is my again for a little bit more
advanced players but it's a book called
uh modern poker Theory I think it's
called
um which sort of explains Game Theory
right to the novice right so it's it's a
little bit I think if you're new to
Poker it's probably Above the Rim for
you but once you start to get a little
better and you want to understand how to
do it it's probably a good resource for
as far as books and there's also like
tons of people who stream poker
professional players and then you can
get in there and you get in on the chat
and you start talking you ask them you
see people you know explaining their
thought process and things like that
there's so many free resources and of
course my masterclass I think does a
good job of sort of compartmentalizing
like you know
how to attack it on a deeper level and
you know we get it I try to get into
what's funny when I did the Master Class
I asked them I was like well you know
how high-end do you want this in terms
of Poker and they're like we want really
really high end and I was like oh are
you sure then I started to explain
really really highly like okay well
maybe the one below that
try to explain really complex
um
you know theory in a more palatable way
in English if you will because some of
these kids you hear them talk and you'll
be like huh but you also which is really
nice give uh example hands that really
illustrate the point which is really
nice
um you also wrote a book I think 10
years ago power holding strategy
it's interesting to think how much of
the stuff in that book still applies how
much doesn't listen I still think the
book holds up to a certain degree
obviously like you know it isn't optimal
because there's like a more advanced
strategies and if you played that way
people will figure out a way to exploit
you but if you're like an average player
playing an average buy-ins like that's
sort of what I coined like small ball
approach absolutely will work you know
at the highest level you have to add
much more a lot more bluffing but
overall I think it's still you know for
the most part there's a lot of real
especially with tournaments there's a
lot of really good principles in the
book what's the difference in the
Dynamics if you could just comment on
between uh heads up poker and when
multiple people are in one hand what are
interesting aspects to everything we've
been talking about from uh Game Theory
to exploitative strategies all that kind
of stuff so the biggest difference when
you play let's say nine-handed you know
against eight other players and you know
heads up is
first of all just the the type of hands
and the number of hands you're gonna
have to play so the way that it works is
if there's nine people
two out of the nine hands you have to
put in money and the other seven you
could just fold for nothing okay when
your head's up you're forced to put
money in every single hand okay and
there's only one other hand in front of
you which means the ranges of hands that
you play is way wider right so if you're
nine-handed right and you're in first
position you're like all right what do I
need to play I'm like a good pair you
know two high cards suited a big Ace you
know stuff like that that's it right
that's what you're gonna play right
and you're going to fold all the rest
when your head's up you look at a king
and a two and you're like well I gotta
play this you know you're gonna you're
gonna you're forced to play a lot more
hands and a lot more complex situations
when you're playing
um heads up because you're going to be
playing much far weaker hands Queen five
jack three all these types of hands and
you're gonna see flops where you're
you're not gonna have the luxury of
being like I'm in there with a premium
hand Queens Kings Aces those are easier
to play right very very strong Holdings
heads up you're forced to dance and
fight a lot more you know you can't sit
in the weeds and wait what do you enjoy
more
um heads up is very intense I like heads
up but
I think if you had to play heads up
eight ten hours it's so mentally
draining because your face with so many
constant decisions each and every spot
like you play nine-handed you look at a
nine and a three you throw it away you
hang out for a bit relax you're good you
get a little break and you play hands up
you're like it's like boom it's like
you're in the ring you know you're in
the octagon and you're facing like
Haymakers Non-Stop
since uh we talked about online a bit is
it possible to cheat in poker especially
online
we're offline also talked about the the
cheating controversy that's going on in
the Chess World
um is is it possible to use what is it a
remotely connected anal beads to so much
no uh is there is that a concern of uh
cheating online so here's the thing
it's kind of like romanticized from the
old days like you know in the western
stuff like people trying to cheat and
have you ever killed a man because he
cheated no I have not but I've used when
I started out as a teenager I played in
a game with a bunch of Italians and I
knew they cheated and I didn't care
because they were so bad that I could
win anyway I was like I knew they would
cheat but I knew how they were cheating
so I was like okay you guys suck but so
here's the thing anytime you're talking
about large sums of money there will be
people looking to take advantage whether
that's live or online right and so it's
like the job essentially of the you know
the online operators or the you know
live event staff to police it the best
they can and the players themselves
being on the lookout for it you know
like a guy like Doyle brunson's a great
resource because he's seen it all and
he's seen all the tricks you know and so
live you know he probably could spot a
few things but online there's there's
various ways people can try to cheat but
there's also really good security
measures in place to catch them you know
and we've caught in like about two years
ago there was a huge huge undertaking of
like 500 accounts that were banned for
doing different things and you know
there's and again you can't go and they
can't go into detail in terms of how
they're doing it because otherwise you
know then you're sort of giving the
cheats the playbook in terms of how to
take advantage but it's always going to
be a concern for poker wherever you play
right
um but it's not something I'm worried
about
personally so it's the highest in person
and by the way online there is really
interesting algorithms that do some of
the work in an automated way to detect
to flag things that are weird but in
person it's just not something at the
highest level that you're super
concerned about so it's not uh it didn't
quite infiltrate the poker world to a
degree where it's a huge concern yeah
like so here's the thing I don't play in
private games and whatever right right
but in private games theoretically yeah
you know you could be in if you don't
trust the people you're playing with
like I've heard stories of people where
you know they have an ear piece in that
you can't see right and they have uh you
know like RFID on the cards or something
like that and they have a phone reading
it so they have somebody in a truck
telling them you're gonna win this hand
you're going to lose his hand like that
happened in a private game you know and
the guy what's often funny about some of
these people who cheat is they're so
greedy and blatantly obvious that they
get caught where if they use this tool
in a more subtle way they could probably
continue to get away with it but again
that's not something I worry about in a
casino environment
um you know in these tournaments and
things like that but if I was playing in
private games like if I came down to
Texas and some guy I got cheated in a
game by a guy named Blackie Blackburn
and tex that's a red flag I was at the
chemo Hotel I was a teenager and they
saw me playing you know I was making
good money as a teenager I had like a 13
000 bankroll you know and I went and
played in this game with them in a
private hotel room and found out later
that the guy was a card mechanic you
know he was dealing and he could you
know deal your hands and he knew what
you had and stuff like that so yeah I
remember you know I lost the big number
in that game
and it was a good Learning lesson in
terms of
you know being wary of who you trust
yeah so if the dealer is in on it that's
one way you could cheat it's fascinating
uh that's part of the reason that they
cut
so like you'll see like uh there's a
burn card because what would happen you
know maybe in the old days is like if
you're sitting in the one seat I could
lift the car and you could see it the
next card coming right so what they do
is they have a card on top of it that
you burn that isn't the card and then
the next card is the one that comes face
up
I just learned about the edge
sorting uh thing that uh Phil Ivey maybe
others were involved with
I just reading it at first was super
interesting to me that you can exploit
the imperfections in the printing of
cards yeah that was almost cool to me
that that was that's almost not cheating
because it's like that needs to be a
movie
yes yes what happened with Phil Ivey in
that whole case is it's it's a
catastrophe really yeah it is such a
horrible precedent because here's what
he did Phil Ivey shows up at the casino
says I want to play this game they say
okay all right I want to play with those
decks they say okay they agree to
everything that he says he never touches
the cards he doesn't do anything outside
of the fact that you cards that you
supplied have imperfections on them and
he can see them yeah okay so that
increases his chances of winning he
could still lose theoretically right
probably not but he can lose in theory
he just gives him a little bit of an
edge and it's all stuff based on what
you provided yeah so the idea that you
offered a game I accepted I beat you and
now you want to free roll me that's
disgusting so for people who don't know
maybe you can elaborate and it's just
fascinating to me but you're exploiting
the imperfections and card patterns on
the back and then they look different if
you rotate it and the the fascinating
thing too when you Shuffle usually you
don't rotate the cards so that you can
see the in sort of detect which cards
are the strong cards by marking them by
through rotating them and the way you
know they're rotate is because of the
pattern imperfections yeah so some of
the cards like you said like you know
they have those like the that that
pattern on it yeah and some of them this
was faulty cards on there we're not cut
properly yeah so like the eights and
nines had the card cut differently and
those are important cards in this game
you know the eights and nines or
whatever so you could essentially from
looking at the back of the card discern
you know what it's going to be you do
nothing in terms of like cheating
yourself you're not rigging the game all
you're doing is taking advantage of the
fact that you're playing you know you've
offered me cards that yeah are faulty
can I just say that of course it would
be Phil Ivey who's who's the goat at the
at the normal game it would be figure
out this particular thing I mean that's
what if you're into soccer this Diego
Maradona has that famous hand of God in
the World Cup where he scores a goal
with his hand and uh so of course the
the referee didn't see it they thought
it was a header so I mean part of the
part of the magic of the genius of the
people at the top of the game is they're
able to exploit
all the flaws that are there it's that's
a beautiful place you feel like Phil had
you know in his Heyday he had he
exploited weaknesses and casinos you
know systems all over the country like
in one night I don't know if you know
the story and one night he would take a
plane a private plane and fly to 30
different casinos all over the country
because he would have these deals where
they're like all right we got this Big
Rich sucker who's going to come here and
play craps and he's going to lose all
our money so he'd have this deal with
one of the casinos where they'd be like
all right you get 20 back up to half a
million right so if you lose half a
million we'll give you back 100K okay so
he'd go to one Casino in Tunica he'd
play half a million win win or lose
you know he would leave they think
they're going to get him to stay they
get him a big room whatever so let's say
he goes to Tunica he lose half a million
okay now he goes he flies to Atlantic
City he wins half a million okay he lost
half a million and one one half a
million but he got a hundred thousand
back so he's actually plus 100 000. do
that at 10 casinos a night you're making
a million dollars in free equity and
they would give him promotional chips
and all these kind of things and free
flights and stuff like that so he took
advantage of the image yeah you know
that they're trying to exploit so this
is why I don't have any empathy for
these casinos because there's giving you
free drinks they're giving you why do
you think they're doing that kind of the
kindness of their heart they're trying
to exploit you so guess what you lost at
your own game pay the piper and I think
it was crazy because the judges in his
case said
he did not cheat but well we it's
probably not right hold on yeah you just
said he didn't cheat you know that that
should be the end of the case
and then the casinos do the funny thing
I messaged you I was just at UFC and uh
Dana White is a huge Gambler he's a
blackjack Gambler and uh there's that
famous situation where he got kicked out
of a casino and the casinos do that kind
of thing when you win too much so he he
won some ridiculous amount of money he
bets like I mean he plays like millions
of dollars on hands of blackjack it's
insane and so he won really big and he
got kicked out was he was he counting no
no he wasn't counting so counting in
blackjack here in Las Vegas is like the
only game where they actually can ask
you not to play so like basically if
you're counting cards yeah right you
could potentially have an edge in
blackjack and there are some
professionals who do that but they get
caught pretty quickly and then they say
you can play craps you can play whatever
you want but you can't play Blackjack
here anymore no I think I don't think
Dana White is counting I think he was
winning a lot I guess they can uh claim
that they believe your account because
how do you really know if you're coming
well they easily they they figure it out
so basically they have an eye in the sky
and they can see so if you're varying
your bed size right so there's certain
spots where based on the cards that are
out let's say for example
the a lot of the twos threes and fours
and fives have been coming out so the
rich is the deck is rich in face cards
that's very good for the player right so
imagine you were betting 500 bucks
and then all of a sudden you up your bet
to two thousand or five thousand when
the deck is Rich they know when the deck
is rich in high cards because they keep
a counter themselves so if they notice a
player increasing their bet sizes when
the deck is good for them it's a
Telltale sign interesting I don't think
Danny White would be counting and so
casinos don't kick you out if you don't
often kick you out do they ever kick you
out if you make too much money so you're
playing millions of dollars that they
unless they they would never kick you
out for making too much money unless
they suspect cheating because why would
they they have an advantage they want
the money back it's not like you go in
there win 10 million you're like oh no
that's enough for us what about if he
was talking shit the whole time I wonder
I don't think that would matter you know
because in the long run they'll get the
money back exactly wow
uh you tweeted if you watched your uh
Jersey Shore family vacation we would
probably get along really well what is
it about uh because I lived in Jersey
for a while what is it about uh uh
Jersey Shore characters that you love I
just love that they're sort I love the
debauchery I think Pauly D's a fun guy
you know and just like it's just
something like it's just
it's it's what do you call it it's trash
TV it's a guilty pleasure but you just
watching Snooki get drunk and falling
all over herself or whatever is that
part do you love that part of Vegas as
well not really like I don't go out and
stuff but I kind of I just like the
characters I like that they have you
know unique personalities and I think
like we live in a world now where
people are more and more careful of what
they say and afraid of backlash and all
that stuff and it's kind of like an old
school version of just like say what you
feel it's okay as long as your intent is
good and uh you know like they haven't
been
canceled if you will which is good but I
feel like their type of behavior
slowly but surely like because they got
a lot of flack originally for
misrepresenting like Italian Americans
or something like that like there was a
lot of backlash about this isn't how
Italian Americans really are and blah
blah blah so they sort of
representing that group of people and
you know they received some backlash
back in the day
I'm a huge supporter of diversity in all
the beautiful forms that uh the human
species is able to generate and that's
certainly well one dimension what's the
greatest Vegas movie would you say I
don't know if that's a difficult
question but fear fear of love in Las
Vegas Leaving Las Vegas casino I watch
because anytime casino's on randomly I
always watch it such a great movie
um it could be one of the Sharon Stone
frankly Sharon Stone reminded me every
time I would watch the movie reminded me
of my wife Amanda it's like totally I
would see like the character and I was
like I'm the Robert De Niro character in
the film it was I used to watch it
through that lens you know
um from like uh the depth of love that
you have just kind of she was I remember
that she was like she was like she like
she lit up every room she does light up
everyone she goes there everybody's
attracted and Drawn to her and she was
kind of when she was younger she was a
little wild and crazy and whatnot so she
reminded me of uh the Sharon Stone
character and then the Robert De Niro
character is trying to like have a
stable life you know and be that now
that was me it was the Joe Pesci in your
in your life well there was a guy named
there was a James Woods for sure who was
the the Lester we called him we actually
called him Lester a few of my friends
call him Lester
you know the greasy guy I tried to get
back in and all that but yeah yeah one
of my favorite scenes is when they meet
out in the desert and it's like a 50 50
odds if you're gonna make it out alive
and that I mean there yeah that there's
an epicness to that portrayal of Vegas I
love I mean it's just you know totally I
mean it's obviously more corporate now
and it's different but uh I love those
movies I love all those movies just
seeing that life and like I said if
there was a period in time that I could
go back to and just experience it it
would be that you know right around then
there'll be that we're playing with a
mob and nothing I think of like these
crime shows today like they're so
unrealistic now because
if they're in an error that is now like
none of this stuff can happen because
there's cameras everywhere yeah you
can't like get away with these like
killing somebody and jumping in a car
and you're gonna get caught you know but
in the 70s yeah you know that stuff
across the line you die yes Lake Mead is
recently like losing water and like
every couple days they're finding more
and more bodies from that era oh they
really are yeah you're close with your
mom what did you learn about life from
your mom my mother was very generous my
mother she was she experienced Joy
through giving people food for the most
part my dad would get him drinks and
that was how she felt fulfilled right
she felt good when she like would cook
for you and like she'd be that person
you'd come over you know they should be
like you are you hungry and you said no
no I'm okay she's gonna put 15 things in
front of you and you'll eat you know
you're gonna eat because everyone does
that to be polite no no I'm good but you
know they will start to eat and just her
Hospitality in that regard and just
being generous and like being a good
host to people and things like that like
um how did that Define like help Define
who you are as a person
that generosity yeah to rub off on you
it made me think about in my life
when it comes to like any sort of
business deals or things like that I
don't want to get the best of it in such
a way where I screw the other person I
genuinely don't I'd much rather you owe
me than me owe you so if I hire people
they get paid more than they're supposed
to and I'd rather them do that and work
towards it rather than feel underpaid
because if they're underpaid they'll
likely under deliver whereas if they
feel overpaid then if I need them to do
something special they're not gonna be
like hey I don't get paid for that he's
like yeah you do you really do so that's
certainly like played out in my life
where I set it up in such a way where I
don't owe you know I'm owed but that's
okay I'd rather because I can handle
taking the worst of it in spots I don't
like being the person to uh
you know feel like I'm indebted to
others
yeah in some way the karma of that tends
to pay dividends in the long term
somehow somehow there's a
there's uh somebody uh up up there
that's keeping track in some kind of way
uh what advice would you give to young
people today in high school and college
how to um have a career that can be
proud of or maybe how to have a life in
general they can be proud of
I would say like your 20s is a good
opportunity to set yourself up for the
rest of your life right so while the 20s
are a period where you want to have fun
and you want to experience youth
it's also a good opportunity to start
thinking about what do you want to what
do you want to like what do you want
your life to look like in your 30s and
your 40s right so I feel like it's the
best time to really put yourself out
there and take risks and try to hit it
you know whatever you know like to work
really really hard to set yourself up
because and I said this at a event I was
speaking at when you're like with poker
when your bankroll is very very small
it's replenishable right
you don't need to protect it as much as
you do once you've got something right
once you have a brand or you have money
or you have something like that that's
that's when you want to start protecting
but in your 20s is an opportunity to
just really sort of
get a cut get you know to work really
really hard to set yourself up you know
for the future I am concerned a little
bit like every time I talk to kids today
I'm like what do you want to be they all
want to be YouTubers or Instagram stars
or rappers right like okay it's like
that's cool but like there's only so
many of those that you know that there
can be so it might be worthwhile having
a little bit of a backup plan I think
it's easier to be successful on
Instagram and social media if you do
something else and uh I would say this
too one other thing I would say is
don't choose a profession or an idea
because you think it'll make you rich
yeah right
pursue something that you actually love
because if you love it you're you're way
more likely to be coverage if you don't
you do something that you don't actually
enjoy now you're spending a lot of your
life unhappy doing something you don't
want and you're far and if you're not
passionate about it you're probably not
the chance of you being successful are
much lower and also becoming rich and
I've talked to a lot of rich people I
hang out with a lot of rich people is
not
going to be as fulfilling as you imagine
if you arrive there by not doing the
thing that you love doing that's true
ultimately the thing that you love doing
is
like that's what makes life worth
there's another quote I can't remember
who it was otherwise I would quote them
but it says something to the effect of
like
um if we believe in the lie that more is
always better then we can never truly
arrive because wherever we are more is
better right I've never understood and
I've been around rich people like you
know you said you know Bill I never got
I can't I don't get it like if you have
a billion dollars why do you give a shit
about money at all like and they're
still like oh we made this deal and I'm
like you know we picked up 300 who cares
like your life is set like there is that
bell curve right where obviously being
in poverty you know there's obviously a
high rate of unhappiness but there's a
certain amount of money where you reach
you know we reach level of happiness and
then too much you find the people that
are searching for money to fulfill these
holes it starts to go back down again
well it the getting more money could
become a game like a sport that's fun to
play as long as you
directly or indirectly acknowledge that
what you love is the game of it uh
versus the actual attainment and I think
that's what it is right for me I've
never cared about money that much I just
never did otherwise I would have a lot
more of it but it's always like it's
always been strange to me how people
that have that kind of money like are
cheap in any way you know like they
wouldn't donate 5 000 to a worthwhile
charity because it's like buddy this
like when it changes your life not and
even like like small things like taxes
like okay you have 20 billion dollars
and you're worried about paying 33 30
31. I get it I get the I get the the
point of it all but like it literally
has no effect on your life whatsoever
your life is unchanged whether it's 31
or 33. yeah that's that's the negative
of a lot of money is if it corrupts the
way you see the world you start to be
protective and so on I mean part of the
challenge of when you get a lot of money
is people start to treat you differently
and so navigating that correctly is is
very challenging so don't change let's
keep remain the same person you always
were because if you change you start to
I mean that's why power corrupts is you
get a lot of power you get a lot of Fame
you get a lot of money
you start to distrust people
and you start to push away people that
are actually really close I think you
develop some biases where you think like
you're just this you know you think like
it was all you and you're a genius and
you're so great and all these other
people who don't have it's just because
they don't have what you have and like
you just then you start to like view
that group of people whether they're
impoverished or whatever is like less
than and that you're some like great
Guru where you could have just got lucky
and bought Bitcoins that you know could
have done anything and then you became
like super wealthy and then you have
this like dunning-kruger effect where
you think you know everything about
everything and a lot of Poker people
have that and I listen I'm probably
guilty in some ways too you know
thinking because you can figure out
poker and be you know great at that that
you could figure out anything so there's
like it's true right I mean we sort of
we genuinely feel like people that reach
the highest levels of Poker feel like
they are intelligent so they will look
at problem solving and think that they
have answers
well you have to remind yourself that
you're not it's best to see the world as
you did just get lucky or at least from
my perspective that you're not better
than anybody I don't think there's
anything wrong with like acknowledging
that you worked hard to get where you
were like there isn't but at the same
time like it's not available to
everybody in the same way you know right
time right place like for me my poker
career could have gone very differently
you know if things didn't work out you
know if I had some bad luck in the wrong
times like who knows where I'd be so you
said uh your brain crawl is pretty small
in your 20s
I'm sure you've been around a lot of
people you care a lot about who've lost
everything in poker what's that like
what's those low points of losing
everything
I think because I've been there I have
more empathy than I probably should for
those people that really feel for them
because I remember being in Vegas and
being totally broke and like a guy
loaning me 400 and me like turning that
400 into 20 000. 400 bucks and it was
like eternally grateful of that so when
I have friends who go through that like
I always try to consult them obviously
but they really need is money for the
most part but I remember saying no to
one friend because he didn't have a plan
so I like to try to help them in that
regard like my buddy's like can you
stake me in this game and I was like all
right well how much do then I was like
let's break down the math bro you want
me to stake you so you get 50 of the
profit right so I said how much you
think you can make in this game how much
is the biggest biggest winners make it's
like well I can probably you know I
probably do like 20 000 a month in this
game so okay so you get half of that
because I get 10 right what is your
monthly nut how much are you spending
well I'm renting this thing for eight
thousand you're spending 17 000 a month
so like no matter what you're set up to
fail like this isn't gonna work so I
actually didn't give him the money and I
was like what you need to do to earn
more money is lower your monthly nut
because it's too high it's just you know
it just doesn't mathematically add up so
trying to set them right in that regard
is something that like
I feel obliged to do especially if
they're friends but what about the
mental aspect of the struggle they're
going through the struggle you were
going through just uh
I mean it's it's really rough to have no
money it's not for everybody this really
isn't like a lot of people might you
know listen to this and think like oh I
want to play poker it's like most people
fail
most people who want to play in the NFL
they you know they they spend their
college Years like they're they're most
of them are not going to make it most of
you who try to play poker professionally
are going to fail and you're going to
experience despair okay there are those
like in anything that have the passion
have the know-how have the luck and all
that sort of stuff and it all pans out
but you know they're the minority
and so so for the low points if you
remember what does it take to sort of
overcome that overcome the um
the mental struggle I mean you're making
it sound like certain people are just
genetically able to uncertain I do think
some people are more apt to being able
to deal with like adversity and having
resilience and some people just can't
hack it but like I generally what I
would advise with you know people that
are let's say a guy's playing you know
really high Stakes or whatever you're
doing badly is Step number one is take
take a little bit of a break here let's
re recalibrate and let's start small
again let's you know let's restart and
let's play smaller stakes and let's get
our confidence back because in poker
without confidence you cannot be
successful it is incredibly important to
have almost an inflated level of
confidence in yourself
because you're you're up against it
right as I said the majority people fail
so why are you special why are you
different you have to be pretty
confident about your you know yourself
to think that you are one of the chosen
ones and then uh don't resist the
Despair and take a nap definitely take a
nap listen it's okay to experience it
like I said yeah you're gonna experience
the spirit what what else what should
you be feeling you know if things are
going poorly and you just lost all your
money excited stuff maybe like okay have
your moment of grief allow yourself to
experience it so that you can you know
reassemble there's a fundamental way in
which you haven't really lived life you
ever if you haven't experienced periods
of Despair you have a jaded view of the
world right It's the weird thing about
the human condition that the both the
highs and the lows are important yeah uh
what role does Love play in The Human
Condition Daniel in the ground that's a
good one world has love played in your
life
it's yeah that's you know you sort of
talked about the ups and downs of uh
of The Human Condition and love has been
that for me right
like I'm in a good place now
but you know even with uh my now wife
years ago you know she was young she was
you know new to Poker and she wasn't
ready to settle down I was like when I
met her I think I was 31 she was 21. and
I was ready to like lock her up if you
will you know let's do this and I bought
a ring way back when she was like not
about that she was living the Hollywood
Life she was living you know partying in
L.A doing that kind of stuff and wasn't
ready and we split and that one hit me
hard
so I didn't realize how much of a hit
that had on my confidence in my in
everything really in poker with other
women it had me a little jaded about
women too you know resentful you know um
and it took a lot of like self-reture I
did like a lot of personal growth work
and workshops and things like that and
then didn't see her for years and she
came back to town I was a much different
person it was you know four years ago or
something like that and she was too went
to dinner few months later we were
married yeah it worked out so different
because we both had to grow you know and
become different people huh and that
love was still there somehow yeah like
she went through her relationships I
went through mine you know we
experienced life and I was married once
before too you know called my starter
marriage if you will
um which yeah you know we just you don't
know I think like until you do it until
you get married and you know experience
like the sacrifice not necessarily the
sacrifices but your value systems if
they don't align identically which
they're not going to
someone like me one of probably one of
my
one of my strengths in poker but my
weaknesses in relationship is Judgment
right when I play poker I need to judge
you that's essentially what I'm doing
I'm gauging who you are and what you're
good at and what you're bad at and that
can have repercussions because it leads
that that's how I you know that's the
lens I look at everyone with based on
how you live your life I'm judging you
this guy's this this guy's that this
guy's that and that's not healthy so you
have to shut that off you have to learn
relationship and the thing I finally
realized what love is frankly for me
with her is no judgment right so like
yeah so I have my way of being right if
she wants to have cereal for dinner
babe that's the best decision for I I
was living in a framework of better and
worse yeah the way that I do things is
better and yours is worse do things more
like I do that's that's a recipe for
disaster true acceptance and true love
is accepting someone like exactly as
they are you know if she wants to do
something different I'm going to support
her whatever it is even if I disagree
with it personally and like the way that
I would do things learning to just
realize that she's had a different
journey and a different walk towards
where she's at than I have so that's I
can't pass my judgments on other people
like that I believe it is ethically
wrong and probably illegal to eat cereal
for dinner
listen if she wants it she wants it
acceptance like when she goes to bed
like all these little things about my
regimented life she's not like our motto
at our wedding was like
you keep me wild I'll keep you safe you
keep me wild I keep her safe she keeps
me wild she's like not organized and
anal and all those kind of things I am
she helps me like
let loose you know oh no I'm eating this
this she's like have some popcorn I'm
like all right let's do it you know she
keeps me uh freed and accepting that
embracing that the uh the difference is
the chaos of it yeah that's that's what
like I literally do think about with her
how important it is and how much I try
to like
just come from neutral and like
compassion and never judge because she's
got other things that she deals with
right that I don't she's bipolar right
so with that I've studied and I've
learned a lot about you know sort of
mental health and what that means and
um
ways in which
a lot of character characteristics about
somebody is completely out of their
control when they're bipolar right and
they're swings like there's no there's
no cocktail for for bipolar that solves
the issue right so there's medications
that work to you know level you out for
periods of time but then they start to
fade and they don't work as well so they
constantly need Readjustment it's an
unsolved mystery to a certain degree so
in some sense
You Know Her diagnosis made our
relationship easier
because I don't take anything personal
right I realize that sometimes she's
going to be in a mood
and so you know I mean she's so good
about communicating it though she tells
me some morning she'll be like bad mood
trying to get out of it babe I'm like
okay did I leave her alone oh that's
great that's that means she's grown to
be able to communicate to understand to
self-reflect understand what she is I
have people in my life who I love who
are bipolar it's a beautiful ride it is
right yeah it's yeah the highs and the
lows are like are there so but yeah like
because I like I feel like protector for
me I just want to be a rock right and
that's part of the whole cereal thing if
she wants to eat cereal don't make a
wrong for anything she wants to do what
have you learned from life from the song
The Gambler by Kenny Rogers
you gotta know when to hold them no one
to fold them no one to walk away no one
to run
uh you never count your money when
you're sitting at the table there'll be
plenty time for counting when the
dealing's done is that do you live by
those words the first part of it for
sure do what do they even mean because
you got to know when hold no so
basically it's like all right you know
in life like you know we'll say let's
let's use a whatever the market for
example you bought a stock right or you
bought Bitcoin and you're like that's
gonna go to the Moon right it's like
okay well maybe things have changed new
scenario new circumstances new situation
are you going down with the ship right
or are you going to lay the hand on are
you gonna fold it whether it's a
relationship you know you're you're with
this woman you're like all right I think
it's time to fold this one I think you
know I don't think that we're going to
be able to make this this hand work
right now when to fold them and when to
run yeah so maybe every gamble knows
that the secret to surviving is knowing
what to throw away knowing what to keep
because every hand's a winner and every
hand's a loser that's like a stoic
philosophy and the best thing you can
hope for is to die in your sleep
every hand's a winner and every hand's a
loser what does that mean I like that
one I like for me that's like the
difference between victim and
responsible like the way that I think
about it right you can be a victim to
circumstance or you can be responsible
for everything in your life right so an
event happens the event itself is
neither good or bad until you assign it
value
right so like an event happens and can
be traumatic it can be you know painful
but you know how you respond to it is
ultimately going to be up to you like
you actually do have a choice and that's
the thing you can control
the fact that you Daniel underground
took my commentary about the Gambler
seriously it shows Once More that you're
a beautiful human being thank you so
thank you so much for being who you are
for inspiring millions of people about
poker about how to live life and thank
you for giving me your valuable time
today this is amazing thank you for
talking man it's great to have the
conversation
thanks for listening to this
conversation with Daniel negrano to
support this podcast please check out
our sponsors in the description and now
let me leave you with some words from
Doyle Bronson
poker is war
people pretend it is a game
thank you for listening and hope to see
you next time