Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with tom
brands olympic champion and world
champion in freestyle wrestling
three-time ncaa wrestling champion at
university of iowa and one of the
greatest coaches in the history of
wrestling leading the university of iowa
hawkeyes for 15 years including in 2021
winning the national championships and
getting a coach of the year award his
third
he is known for his intensity focus and
mental toughness embodying both as a
wrestler and coach the culture and
spirit of iowa wrestling
we recorded this conversation almost
exactly three years ago after i attended
the university of iowa versus iowa state
wrestling meet
in the historic carver hawkeye arena
tom graciously invited me to his home
where his family a couple of friends and
me spent several hours chatting about
wrestling in life
we recorded this brief
podcast conversation that evening and i
wasn't sure where
how or whether we'll publish it
but returning to it now three years
later i realized just how meaningful
that evening was for me and even though
i was nervous didn't even put on my
jacket
it's a moment i would love to share with
others
the mix of intensity and heartfelt
kindness from tom and his family made me
want to stay in iowa forever i think i
will return there soon enough
because of the amazing people there
and because i was still in many ways the
heart of the indomitable spirit of
american wrestling a sport i love and to
which i'm deeply grateful for humbling
me early in life
and helping me and many others build
character through hard work
this is the lex friedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now here's my
conversation with tom brands
what's the best motivator for you or for
your athletes
hatred of losing or
love of winning for me personally it was
definitely the hatred of losing i was
not a guy that was about pageantry
i was not a guy that was about the
parade
when i wrestled in atlanta
i ran in a three-cylinder geo with my
wife drove home and mowed the lawn
because it hadn't been moaned for a
month
and i remember one of our neighbors
driving by and they were like they did a
double take like well that's the i
thought he was in atlanta well i was in
atlanta yesterday and just sat on the
stand and got a gold medal put around my
neck
that's how i was that doesn't mean that
it was the right approach or the wrong
approach it's just what worked for me
but when you were a kid you and terry
you dreamed about winning that olympic
gold yeah it's all winning then there is
the the the lure of winning but what
drives you is that
um
you know as you move forward there's
just no
reason that you have to settle for
anything but being the best
and if if
it just it would get to you to the point
where
that's not going to happen to me again
so what the thing that keeps you up at
night is the the losses and that's not
that's not going to happen to me again
that's the thought that keeps you up at
night that's the thought that drives you
in your training that's why you do
you know nine ropes when gable says do
three ropes and bunny push-ups and
you're out of here and you do nine or
you do them until you can't do any more
and
it's a very rare ingredient the older i
get the more rare i find it is
the ingredient of
lost feeding
feeding that the drive of hard training
maybe that because everybody's so
worried about the negative whatever and
you're putting too much pressure on
yourself so maybe that but what i meant
was is when a coach says okay finish
with four ropes and
you know bunny push-ups and four-way
neck
you know i would do 12 or 10. that's
rare it's no longer about what the coach
says it's your own demons that you're
trying to
exercise out what's
the few losses you've had in your life
are all of them just
melt together or is there something that
stands out in your mind i'm i'm guy that
remembers
my career that well
i know that i am judged on
a very small portion of my life and
that's minutes
of wrestling matches you know a lot a
lot of winning but there's some losing
in there too and
you know people think they know you
because of that and
they think they know you because they
see you in a press conference but
um you know to go back to the original
question
you know i don't know how to answer that
so there's no losses that just
that eat at you still there's opponents
that i
have learned a great deal from i mean my
loss to john smith
in
us open was something that i learned a
lot
about
i learned a lot about positioning i
learned a lot about the importance of
parterre
um
you know in a certain kind of crazy way
i learned that i could go with the best
guy in the world even though it was 14
to 4.
and this is when tech falls were 15 or
12 points so i didn't get tech fault and
i wasn't that wasn't a badge of honor
for me
but i knew i could go with him because
it was one point take downs i scored
four takedowns on him
and i learned that i had to move my feet
and i learned what it meant to move your
feet constantly and and there's no
break john smith is a very very intense
competitor that people know that now
six-time world olympic champion and i
felt that firsthand
but i did not go in there um
taking a back seat even though the score
um was very lopsided but you knew you
could stand with the best of the world i
knew that i this is what this is about
and you know what you move your feet
and you don't give up a lace that's so
damn tight that it you can't you know
feel your calf muscle
you know and i got to get ready for the
consolation side of the bracket because
i believe that was in the semis
you know you know you just learn from
that and it was it was better than
learning from
you know a win over a
second ranked senior level guy when
you're a junior in college
you know you rest on the best on a stage
so if you look back you probably spent
tens of thousands of hours on the mat
spilled sweat blood
even tears maybe maybe a few times
so technically or philosophically how
would you do any of those hours
differently just looking back
at the tens of thousands of hours i
would be more
probably in my older age i probably
would have been more relaxed in my
training
and probably wouldn't win another cycle
if i could do it over again
in 96 i really thought that when gable
retired that i would be the next guy in
line and i was wrong and that was
immature of me
in terms of the coach in terms of the
coach yes
and i knew that gable was close i mean i
didn't know when but it just so happens
you know in 97 was his record-breaking
year and then he retired
but i didn't know how close he was but i
knew that he had you know he went down
with a bad hip injury and
and so you know you're just you're
you're not gonna
so what is what what is a relaxed tom
brands looks like you're saying you
would you would have been a little more
relaxed more like where you know what i
was pretty dang good and i was getting
better every day
but maybe do it a little bit different a
little bit smarter and terry actually
did that going
through 2000.
he had to do it and he would have been
in in the you know the funny farm let
alone the you know the the physical farm
whatever you want to say
mentally and physically beat up but
he had to learn to
less is more type approach and
how it came around was is
you know you work hard at feeling good
you work hard in your recovery so even
when you're not
wrestling hard in that wrestling room
and looking for the toughest partner
to go you're still working hard
in your recovery and massage could be
that
stretching could be that
um thing things like that that are more
fluffy
and that's something you weren't as good
at
never
never um
there's not a place for it with young
people
because in my opinion
there's so much development to have
happen
i mean when when you need to learn
wrestling you need to be wrestling
and as you get older um you your body
won't do it anymore
and so to learn wrestling it's more of a
probably a relaxed approach so if you
have to choose between two athletes
who would dominate competition one who
drills 100 000 reps of a specific
takedown specific technique
or one that spends that time live
wrestling both um it's the same and i
like to live wrestling i was always
wanting to live wrestle bring the
warm-up into the live wrestle let's go
but where i got really really good was a
repetition
and i was disciplined enough to know
that the things that you hate
to do in this sport are the things that
make you the very best
and that is a rare ingredient as i've
gotten older and you spend a lot of time
communicating that to younger athletes
so the thing
if you feel yourself hating something
that's probably a thing you should be
doing yes as a matter of fact i had a
strength coach when i was really young
he was just a
freaking guy that would
we wore white
like he was almost like a nurse nurse's
clothes he wore all white from head to
toe and he was in cheyenne wyoming
and his first name was walt
and he taught terry and i to hate the
bar away from you on that last rep when
you're dead and whether it's a curl you
hate it up
and then you do the negative and you
hate it down and you hate that bench up
and you hate it you look at the bar and
you hate it away from you
so
you know i learned and that i was young
i was young and uh i remember being born
my mom's sister lived out there and we
were dropped off to stay out there with
our cousins and i was born a little bit
and they always treated us really good
but this was like the
the single most
um
bright spot in a weightlifting like
enlightenment even though i lifted
weights
but i never knew the psychology behind
lifting weights it's just to look good
and so you can flex and look in the
mirror or is it for performance
and this guy was about performance
and you said repetition do you mean
technique i'm talking repetition
technique technique technique drill
drill drill hit hit hit drive finish hit
hit hit drive finish so you believe in
that you believe i believe in that
wholeheartedly so
i mean i believe that you have to do it
on your own
i don't believe in the coach taking you
to the promised land
so
in the guys today
or in yourself how often do you see
people that
grow the belief of doing ten thousand
twenty thousand reps i think it's rare i
think it's very rare and i think it's
especially rare i mean you can talk
about that as a coach but it's
especially rare
to
bring a guy to that understanding but
you never stop trying you're always
trying to reach them
i mean we didn't have a good performance
out there tonight but
you know what you don't stop
communicating
and there's a lot of programs out there
that put their head down
when things aren't going their way and
then as things start going their way
then they rise with the tide
there was no difference in the demeanor
that that of our corner and we talk
about that's a philosophy and so you're
reaching your guys that way
um so go back to your point or your
question you know do you believe in the
in the 10 000 reps and yes i do
and
how do you inspire people to do that so
well you communicate by example but
communication but i mean that's a
in my experience what i've seen
uh communicating the value of repetition
and drilling is a hard thing to
communicate it's hard and it's very rare
to have somebody that goes in there and
will do it on their own do you have
young guys that step up and do that we
do and it's rare and the guys that do it
on their own and have done it on their
own are the guys that
are in that lineup and and doing well
um the other thing is is that
when you talk about uh getting to that
next level
um a lot of times it's
you know what held you back was i did
everything the coach asked of me and
nothing more
right i mean you could be a great guy
for a for an a for a coach as an athlete
and you did everything that coach asked
but you did nothing more
so you're really looking for the guys
that
go way beyond what the coaches we don't
want guys that are looking at their
watch running out of the room when
practice is over
we want guys that know what they have to
get done and they might leave early
but they're not looking at their watch
they might be done early they might be
we might be on a whole different path
and this guy just excuses himself i'm
all about that
we are not we are not autocrats there's
an internal engine in there is that
something you're born with or is that
something you can develop i think you
are born with it you develop it also and
i think that there has to be comfort and
then go back to communication
that
young people are
comfortable enough to communicate that i
need to take the day off
so what do you mean by communication
differently just let exactly so letting
letting athletes
uh be part of their own development
communication to me is is is letting
them know
what their what they need to do to get
themselves in contention to be the
starting quarterback
and then to give them
boosts and compliments when they earn
them
and
i don't have time to waste
with
um
with lies and cheating
and when i say cheating i'm talking
about when they cheat themselves and so
those become very direct conversations
and the conversation starts like this i
don't have time to waste it neither do
you
and so why are we wasting our time and
here's what i mean by that
we're having a conversation about
you know your accountability
if you look in the mirror and you're
accountable then we are we aren't taking
the time to go through this
we're already on our way to solving the
problem problem can't be solved without
that understanding
and that's
has to do with symptoms that you see in
the wrestling room there's something
where the father is not doing with
mental emotional spiritual physical
everything everything that you know
about you know i had a boss and our
athletic director is a great athletic
director and he gives us everything we
need to be successful but i had a boss
his name was fred mims and i didn't
think anybody could be better than him
and then all of a sudden this gene
taylor guy came in and i didn't and then
he was pretty doggone good too and he
actually
you know was just like fred and maybe
even a little bit more current and then
he ended up taking a job at kansas state
where he's the athletic director now and
and then this this lady barbara burke
comes in
and i didn't think anybody could be
better than gene taylor or fred mims and
this barbara burke she's better than
both of them
and the reason why is because she's a
problem solver she doesn't waste time
she's direct and she's a problem solver
and that's what we need you need problem
solvers
so on the flip side
of
problems and technique and repetition
here's a a thing called toughness mental
toughness
something that maybe you or maybe even
iowa in general is a little bit known
for so how do you train mental toughness
as a coach you train metal toughness by
putting them in situations that
they're
willing to go through but don't think
they can make it and then they go
through it and then all of a sudden
those marries are down
does that have to do
with physical usually exhaustion
the reps on the ropes it has to do with
that and it has to do with
uh understanding why we're doing it and
sometimes understanding why we're doing
it might not come for months but there's
blind faith
and we have a heavyweight in the room
right now this this young guy that
he's like that he doesn't necessarily
understand it he asks a lot of questions
but he does it
and he's been here four months now four
and a half months now and he's getting
better every day
so mental toughness too is a matter of
repetition so that's mental toughness
it's a matter of repetition and having
an open mind and being extremely
accountable and and not only accountable
that
when you
maybe
um when something doesn't go your way
that you look in the mirror and own it
but accountable
to the point of view that you know what
i gotta get tough in this situation
right here right now and this is what's
gonna make or break me and i talked
about my own career being defined by you
know a couple of minutes on the mat
but that's when you're gonna be defined
that's how you're gonna be defined
that's okay
so
people are going to talk about you so
you might as well have them talking
about how dog untouched you are
what about
we live in a world now i've often in my
own work i hear about this concept of
work-life balance or over-training
so you've been one of the hardest
workers ever on the mat you've coached
some of the hardest workers ever
do you think it's possible to over train
train too much how big of a concern i
think
peaking and burnout are frames of mind
or burnout as a
is a like you let things probably get to
the point where you could have arrested
them
with a good frame of mind
but peaking is a frame of mind and
you know you have to know be able to
read and that's a lot of it
and the individual athlete also has to
know
that it's a frame of mind and so when
you have a coach that's reading that the
right way
and you have an athlete that is knowing
that it when zero hour comes that you're
gonna be ready to go
um and knowing that there's light at the
end of the tunnel if you feel like
you're burning that candle at both ends
lights coming into the at the end of the
tunnel i mean you're good to go
so you think about gable and
that whole dream of being carried off
the mat because you worked so hard
again do you think it's possible to
overtrain so you said it's a
it's mental i do think it's possible to
overtrain if you have a lot of
distractions
and if you're looking at your watch
running out of the room
then yeah you're gonna in that frame of
mind isn't gonna lend itself to
excellency and
the thing is is we we have to accomplish
what we need to get accomplished and get
better every day you can't kind of
accomplish what you need in companies
you have to accomplish it
and when when you're in that mindset
then the clock is irrelevant there's no
place for a clock in the wrestling room
and maybe a clock that times a match
but it may be a clock if you know we're
at student athletes here but that's why
we encourage our
you know
when you schedule your classes that you
don't have a class that comes right up
to
you know practice time or starts as a
night class and it starts at 5 30. you
know go to get the 6 30 class or the 7
o'clock so you leave it all behind your
heart your passion is completely there's
no when you walk in that wrestling room
there's no distractions and it's never
eternal the only thing that's eternal is
death
you know there's nothing sometimes guys
come in there and they wig out
oh it's an hour and
25 minutes and
or an hour and 45 minutes oh
yeah you have to be willing to go
as long as it takes there's no clock
there's no clock
again wrestlers are some of the hardest
some of the toughest people
in all sports but weight cutting often
breaks people so what's your thought on
weight cutting both nutrition wise
mental wise how do you
approach and think of it as a coach in
your own career too
it's a lot of discipline and it's a lot
of discipline
during a very uncomfortable time period
that really doesn't last that long when
it feels like it lasts long and it's
painful
and but once you shrink your body down
and if you're hydrated you'll get
through it if you're a little hungry but
you're eating
but you're hydrated
once you break that sweat your energy
depletion goes away that's a fact i've
practiced that you come in and you're
yawning
and you're you know you're starting to
shrink your body down and it's that time
of year where hey i got to get my body
shrunk down
and you're dehydrated you are dead in
the water
but if you're hungry
and hydrated when you break that sweat
people gotten better with that over the
years over the past few days i think
that coaches science is better i think
that coaches communicate it i think they
always have
i think the bottom line is is having the
energy to implement that and taking a
guide by the hand
when he doesn't understand and he's new
in your program and he's essential
and or he's unwilling to and not
discipline enough because when you think
by the hand enough they will learn that
discipline
this is an important aspect of wrestling
buddy you know what i'm saying so you
know it's not just go and show up for
the match
i mean it's not about just making weight
either you got to be able to make weight
that's part of the
warm-up that's part of the process
getting ready to wrestle the whole thing
it's a lifestyle yeah
when did you first start believing
you're going to win olympic gold
i don't know i mean i found out i got
really addicted to wrestling really
really fast
started late but looking back at my life
um
wrestled my whole life with my twin
brother
and when terry and i would fight it was
wrestling and it was to mame
and so if if you were if you're if so if
you're trying to maim me i better be
tough because if i roll over
and expect you to scratch my belly when
you're trying to maim me i won't lose my
head
and tom and terry brands there was no
alpha male
and when it was on it was on for real
what do you mean there's no alpha male
there's
both
a lot of twins there's a dominant twin
oh a lot of them
very few times is there a situation
where you're gonna i'm gonna win every
time and everything and then he's
thinking the same exact way and terry
used to describe it like when we just
get interviewed a lot about our careers
um
like it'd be like you grabbing a
steering wheel and me grabbing a
steering wheel and fighting and that's
what it was like when you would wrestle
him or fight him
and so i had that benefit so when did i
know well i got addicted to wrestling
really really fast in fifth grade and
started to research it and i don't know
why
and talked about the olympics and
um put it in my head and
a member
said something about being an olympic
champion in fifth grade and somebody
made fun of me and i got into fighting
the playground
and i remember um
getting pulled in getting in trouble for
that
and the people that got me in trouble
for that were smart enough
to not rake me over the coals but they
researched or they actually found out
what the fight was about and i was
distraught
i was i was really emotional like crying
or whatever you want to say you don't
want to admit that too many times
but it wasn't because i got beat up or
got my nose blood he never got punched
in the face or broke my arm
or there was any pain it was because
they stomped on my dream and they
doubted me and so i fought for that
and you know that was a lesson there's
going to be a lot of doubters
and one thing we talk about as a staff
is our staff has to be lockstep
in that hallway in our offices
and when you deviate outside of that
that is
heresy so everybody has to be on board
confident that you're going to be number
one when we go forward and we go put our
public foot forward there is a decision
we are unified and there is no
backbiting
and we have great people right now we
hadn't had that before we've had the
tractors in our hawkeye wrestling club
we've had guys that would go out and get
rolled up in ankle laces and not care
in our club and we got brandon sorenson
who got rolled up by james green last
night but i'll tell you what i don't i
don't have a problem with that you know
why because i know it means a lot to him
he didn't roll over
he didn't quit because he was on the
consolation side of a bracket
and so when you have that and then you
have you know if there's a disagreement
it's behind closed doors and then you're
moving forward
and when you have people that when
they're meeting your fans and your
supporters you know they're talking the
right way with the right message
and anything that's caddy wonkas to that
you got to be careful there
so that in terms of affirmations in
terms of really believing as a team as
an individual believing that you're the
best in the world
did did you i'm sure you had detractors
you had
people that continued after fifth grade
and that's probably where my hatred of
losing trump's my love for winning
because i wanted to shove it up their
rear end bad
yeah
and the thing is is we maintain a high
level and there's very few programs so
oklahoma state
ohio state now penn state
i mean there's four programs that try to
win a national title every year and
that's it and these these other teams
they get up and they got a good team and
they get up and they get going and then
when when things don't go well okay
we're gonna do it next year or this is a
down year we're gonna we're gonna get
right we're three years out so no matter
what you're fighting for first we we do
and we haven't won and now you say well
we've been one in eight years well
you're right we haven't
but look at our results are better
better than anybody out there and it's
me besides penn state and it's because
of our
mentality and because we have great
people ryan morningstar bobby tell from
terry brands our medical team even
our strength coach quinn holland we're
all on the same page
and when i send something i hit it
immediately i don't have time to waste
there will not be an ascension in that
hallway everybody's in uh together yeah
1996 olympic games in atlanta can you
take me through the day when you're
going for the 62kg
what did you eat
drink what did you think oh it really
doesn't matter um i have a routine that
you know i had a routine as a competitor
that i could run through right now
um it was a lot of self-talk very very
positive self-talk visualization yes
visualization
self-talk
and and that's how i i was able to relax
and getting ready for matches my whole
life
learned that very early age at a camp in
a developmental camp
at a young age terry united
and
i can tell you what i ate
and i can tell you what i did to relax
and it doesn't matter
what you have to do is you have to find
that
piece
and i just know that when i was getting
ready for
the finals match i had gone back to my
room i had my relaxed material
you know and i was able to relax because
i
prepared for it
uh hopefully i'm right on this but
just looking at the insane bracket you
had to go through you had to beat just
to get to the faunas to be three world
champions
eventually world champ i mean they've
and you know what i don't talk about
that and nobody else does either but
everybody talks about in their own
career
so now you're making my head big
but yeah i had a road i had a road
you're right that is the hardest bracket
i've seen so i've talked to a lot of
olympic champions
this is the hardest bracket i've seen of
any champion so uh maybe i'm confused on
this but it seemed like a really tough
day for you did you have
did you know the bracket ahead of time
did you know you faced you you see the
draw and it's a two-day tournament
so psychology comes into it as much as
physical shape
um you know because there's those you
gotta sleep
you know the night before after the
weigh-in then you gotta sleep again that
next night after your semi-final match
is gonna be in the morning
you know and then you have to go back
and rest cause your final matches and
until whatever time it was
and so all this relaxation and all that
stuff that you just talked about that
visualization and self-talk that's what
helps it's your routine
and was there any doubt any fear any
anything there the fear is the type of
fear
and i just talked about this to one of
my athletes today jack dempsey talked
about fear
and the fear of losing is what motivated
him to try to take his opponent's head
off he was a boxer
and
that's okay
so fear of competition fear of screwing
up fear of oh i don't feel good no
no but that little fear that you know
what there's somebody out there that
thinks that you know what they they're
gonna they're gonna revel in my
they're gonna they're gonna
they're gonna eat it up in my misery
they're gonna love they're gonna be
thriving because i fail
and and i'm not gonna let that happen
your identical twin brother terry you've
been adam like you said
your whole life and you're both
some of the greatest wrestlers of all
time you won the gold medal he won the
bronze medal
you've mentioned you know all that
really matters is the six minutes or
you know just a few minutes sometimes a
few seconds to find your whole career so
how do you think about that thin line
the tragic line at the olympic level
between winning and losing i think you
come to peace that
in the end when it's over that you did
the best you could
and that's certainly the case with terry
um he has a career credentials are
better than mine internationally
you know he won two world championships
i won one
and he won olympic bronze medal and
um
you know i won olympic gold medal but i
only won one and the thing is is
that's not what's important anyway
what's important is is that
when it's all over
you know how do you
look back on it and you're kind of like
well you just said that you made sure
that you weren't going to leave anything
undone
but you know what there were tournaments
where i did leave things undone and so
how do you come back from that well
terry never came back from 2000 because
he retired well you know what you
duplicate and exceed
when you're communicating to these young
athletes
and because of that experience that
makes terry a better coach because of
you know
1995 that makes me a better coach
you know
realizing that there are certain things
that
unraveled in that year that i could have
controlled looking back on it
and when you have that perspective you
can communicate
so what control is there
can you control everything
how big of a role is luck control
how you react to an injury
control that so you can't you don't have
any control over it it's over
you know whatever and
whatever happened
but
relax
and you learn to deal with injuries
better because of that you have that
experience that you let this thing maybe
get the best of you and that's just an
example and
you know terry put a lot of demons to
rest
with that bronze medal
so becoming an olympic medalist a few
demons could relax well a little he will
never admit that and he probably is
truthful and i should i'm speaking for
him but he is truthful when he says that
but if if i look at it and bronze sucks
um but
if i look at it he did put some demons
in rest and i'm proud of him for it
there's something there that is
a consolation
in the fact that he won the consolation
medal
the consolation medal sucks but there is
a consolation that he won the
consolation that's a tough medal to win
by the way yeah
but do you see the the shakespearean
tragedy of it all that uh the line
between winning and losing so you'd
often say that you know winning is
everything but
it feels like especially at the olympic
level or you talk about ncaa finals or
that tournament you know a
a split second
miss move can result in a loss where you
dominated all the way up to there
you that's where your psychology comes
in and that's where the repetition and
all of the self-talk and visualization
and the physical shape and
everything comes together
and so that doesn't happen and tonight
you we got beat twice
actually three times and we out wrestled
those we we lost three matches and we
out wrestled the guy for six minutes and
thirty seconds
or one one match went to overtime
and if our guys can move forward with
the right perspective i'm confident that
they'll
be better
i'll tell you what i'd take our guy over
their guy any day
any day because our guys get up for
every match and now we got a lot to work
on
right a lot to work on but you know what
i can say all that and i'll take our guy
and blah blah blah but what are they
going to do tonight in their meal how
are they going what are they going to do
tonight and their rest what are they
going to do tomorrow in their recovery
on their own necessarily what are they
going to do
monday
great
wrestlers can
use their imagination with a win
that they're not
satisfied with
and go forward as if it was a loss but
it's still easier to go forward with
that win
but they can they don't just
oh i want i'm fine it goes on but then
when they lose the exact same way that
they could have lost before then they go
off the deep end and then that's when
they're going to make the change in
their life and we talked to we talked
about that to our team tonight
and
the the mature
rare ingredient is
is guys that can get better
even with success
like it was a loss without beating
themselves up that's complicated it is
it's a balance
you often talk about iowa's focus on
creating individual champions
like spencer lee
can you explain the philosophy of
focusing on individuals versus the team
i think that we need to put them both
together and the individual impacts the
team and
you know we haven't done that since 2010
and we need to do a better job of
putting 10 weight classes out there that
contribute to the team and
if it's not ten then it's nine
and if it's not nine it can't be four
you know and that takes a lot of pride
and it takes a lot of
um
you know where the coach is on top of it
and
you know you're not just
working on the easy things
the glaring things you're working on
everything
what do you mean by everything so the
like there's just some you know there's
ideas that
um
when you're a coach uh
that aren't they're beneath the surface
and you've got to find them
and so when communication comes in yeah
but you're talking about
yeah we got to move forward what does
that mean well i know what that means
but how many how many
guys really know what that means in
their program
you know there's so many levels of that
you've said before that winning is
everything
uh
and that means people lose most people
lose
you know there's there's really in
whatever the context is only one winner
in many parts of our world today outside
of wrestling that concept the brutal
honesty of that is uncomfortable for
people so how do you think
about this very
philosophical difficult concept of
you know
they're only being one winner that
winning is everything this kind of
really painful idea
i don't think that that's
a bad thing to have that mentality i
mean i think a kudukov
i remember a story i read about him he
comes to mind um
you know
sargosh i remember when he lost in
london
and i remember the look on his face and
those are some of the greatest wrestlers
in the history of the sport freestyle
wrestling and
um
you know what it's what works for you
and you you can talk about being at
peace with your results and and that the
approach is in the journey is what it's
about but
um and that's great and that relaxes
some champions and that makes some
champions really really tick
um but not everybody
so it's okay it's okay and if that wigs
you out that that really makes you
uptight then then then go the other
route you have to find what works for
you that takes a lot of work if you're
lazy
forget it
so you and terry
but in general
how do you find the line between
extremely physical extreme physical
wrestling and rough wrestling or angry
wrestling so to which degree has anger
whether it's in your wrestling room
these days or in your own career entered
wrestling do you see it as a tool that
can be
used
in the wrestling match i think there's a
balance or not even a male there's a
line that you go up to and you can't
cross it sportsmanship is everything you
can get dinged for points you can get
thrown out of tournaments there's rules
with um
flagrant misconduct where you're kicked
out of the match
other team gets the points and then you
have to sit the next meet
so it's very serious the ncaa
sends a message a very serious message
about sportsmanship and so we talk about
that the other thing with wrestling is
there's rules in wrestling
these guys that are tough guys
outside of the rules
that's that's what you want in your
opponent that means they're frustrated
you got to be you got to be a tough guy
inside the rules of the sport
that's that's more honorable
than cold cocking somebody and knocking
them out so yeah anger doesn't mean
breaking the rules but i mean you know
you
a lot of people know you just watching
you as a coach
there's quite a bit of passion there
well come and do what you're doing
tonight i mean break bread with me in my
kitchen and see how big of a jackass i
am now you're a pretty nice guy well i'm
not asking for that necessarily but
thanks i'm saying
you know what you you as a coach i mean
come okay come spend a month in our
program and you'll see really what kind
of
what kind of people we are
and there's a stigma out there because
they are very threatened by our program
there's nobody else that threatens
the sport of wrestling like we do and
that's the truth
there's a legend to iowa wrestling
there's uh it's one of the most
intimidating there's a legend to john
smith it's the same thing
but they can't up for john smith they
get up for oklahoma state
they get up for penn state
my question is okay i'll answer it this
way i'll give you i'll give you an
example in my coaching career i coached
at virginia tech for 22 months
we recruited the number one recruiting
class
we got the administration to change
100 180 how they looked at wrestling
here's the thing and because of how
serious we were and because we weren't
idiots
we were able to do that with our
administration but my point is this
we tried to win
we tried to win even at virginia tech it
wasn't a stepping stone for me it ended
up being one quickly
and looking back on it i was a fool to
think that i'd be there for 20 years but
you believed you would be i did yeah i
did
i did
so do you remember a time
that you really pushed yourself to your
limits
so gable talks about having to be
carried off the mat
have you really found that level i said
something about that too in a book and i
think i was misquoted one time um
and actually it was gabo's quote i was
trying to make the point that gable's
quote was like this and
you know they weren't making it like it
was my own ones i think it was a first
wrestling tough book but
it's good it's a good book
but the story is gables
and i don't know if there's anybody that
has done that besides him
and i think that's a very rare quality
um
but i've definitely been in that nirvana
level
of you know either you you could go all
day long
and it doesn't you have to you have to
shoot me to stop me yeah
but there's a balance because you're not
going hard with and holding your breath
it's not
it's a relaxed
and like
you've got a guy cornered and who's most
dangerous
well the guy that's cornered and so
that's where you relax i'm not bum
rushing him
i'm relaxed i'm still moving fake and
very fluid guy falls down on his face i
run around behind him
that's offense
you don't have to just
grunt to the leg and call that offense
offense is a
in and out smooth now you sound like a
russian wrestler
yeah well that's
they're the best
in a certain light looking at the
history of wrestling
wrestling is much bigger than folk style
freestyle greco
it's it's one of the oldest forms of
combat period there's been cave drawings
15 000 years ago do you ever see
so you're you're
uh one of the great coaches of all time
you're not focusing a particular rule
style right now
but do you ever see wrestling as bigger
than all of
this you know as as uh one of the pure
combats i do and we're raising 20
million dollars for a facility to make
it the best facility on the planet we
have a vision to build the best facility
on planet earth and put the best
wrestlers in it
and that is bigger than wrestling
it's for the university of iowa
and our donors are doing it for the
university of iowa but it is about
the value of wrestling to me also
there is so much value to wrestling
blind
blind people don't play football they
wrestle blind people don't play
basketball i mean maybe they do
but it'd be
very difficult they can wrestle
wrestling is a feel sport
yeah there's no ball there's nothing
it's just two guys or two girls and
that's it that's right and you can
i mean i'm not going to say you can't
because somebody will get a hold of this
and i'll get an email or a letter that
says you said blind people can't play
baseball and blah blah
i'm just saying that blind people can
wrestle very effectively yes i've
wrestled with with my eyes shut i mean
was honest about it too
and it was i was effective so why why
was i able to be effective because
wrestling is it isn't is a sport that
you you can overcome a lot your demons
that you're overcoming
they're not limited
with
whether i'm blind or not the demons that
are overcoming are inside you you have
to overcome those demons from within
so what's the future of iowa wrestling
look like with this facility and this
momentum you have now and this great
group of guys you have now we have a
good young group of guys and
um you know there is a lot of buzz
in the program and probably hasn't been
this much buzz for quite some time
and our job is to
you know be
relaxed and be focused and not get
caught up in the buzz
but we have to put it together
and we have a catalyst spencer lee but
he's gonna have to he's gonna have to
get better
and we have some other catalysts as well
that are
um you know gonna help us in the future
um but they gotta get better
and so all this stuff about independence
and accountability
and you know
being able to get better every day under
duress
and
not knowing that you're getting better
but you are you know you know what that
you know what i mean by that
like the great thing about gable was
wrestling for him was is you were
getting better and you didn't know you
were getting better
well yeah just like you said uh grow
from success so even you
you never allow yourself to think that
you're
that you're you're getting good all of a
sudden you do something in the practice
room that you've been working on and all
of a sudden you hit it it's like it was
automatic yeah and then that you know
become yeah that multiplies success and
so if i may say so you're a bit of a
man of the bible wha what's
where do you go
what do you go to the bible for your
faith
strength love paper same things they
talked about things that you can't
control you turn them over
so
the biggest thing for me is i gotta turn
over the things that i can't control
turn them over
to that power
and i'm gonna be a lot better off and
that's the reason why i'm not in the
funny farm
because it's very competitive to me
yeah it's very serious
that we we know that these young
wrestlers come to school here to be the
best that they can be and to accomplish
goals that like me when i was young
they've set out to accomplish
and they chose iowa to do that so we
have to deliver
and because of that
peace with god you know it's pure
it's a pure motivation it's a pure
um
platform it's not it's not
doing this for my ego
we're not corrupt people we're not liars
and cheaters
and so often
uh that gets in the way of a decent
person
yeah first and foremost you're a good
person and god helps you be that
yeah and we're serious about wrestling
uh
so
a couple more questions
what's the role of family in wrestling
you mentioned your wife
who i read uh turned you down
when you asked her for a phone number
said it's in the phone book that's
pretty smooth her story of that is that
she didn't want me to have to remember
the number
and i say
at this point and i say there's no way
and i remember it very clearly like hey
it's in the phone book and i was like
okay she's blowing me off that's okay
but luckily anyway here's the thing with
family i mean we we have great people in
our program we have great parents we
have a culture of parents
that that's part of the buzz
and this class that you see wrestling
right now that's been here a year now
lee mirin costello warner and then lugo
was a transfer and i'm forgetting
somebody and i don't want to forget
anybody but
um these parents are phenomenal and
that's a different parental culture
so the camera's dad is the same and
and
so
there's a lot of good there and that
that's a big that's a big
a big movement because how we talk to
parents we don't talk to parents to get
along with them we talk to parents to
help them understand you know where
we're at with their sons
and when you can have a direct
conversation with a parent who is
helping his son or her son the mom
helping her son
to be accountable
and to own it then you can get a lot
accomplished and that's what we've been
able to do and so you're solving
problems like i talked about earlier
that's part of the family the other part
of the family is the coaches
are like family the other part of the
family is the coaches
significant others and wives are part of
the family and we fed you know we fed 40
guys and
an entire coaching staff and wives and
their children here at thanksgiving
and that equals 70 people
and it's it's fun
it's fun
so
family means administration gary barna
my my athletic director gives us
everything that we need to be successful
and he has an open mind
for the sport of wrestling and
wrestling's important in iowa so that's
a no-brainer but
not if you're not a wrestling guy
but he seems we do it the right way and
so
the commitment is there from him if we
were doofuses
you know he the commitment wouldn't be
there
so family is everybody's all in i mean
it's from the restless to the family it
goes back to what i said earlier about
our people our people are great ryan
morty star is great bobby telford is
great
bobby telford took over for a guy named
ben burhau who is great
um our medical team is great dr
westerman dr wolff
jesse donovarth our athletic trainer is
great
terry brands is great mariah stickley
and and elise owens our managers are
great my daughter's a manager as well
it's great
um they're they're hard-working young
women our hawkeye wrestling club is is
where it needs to be in terms of how
they help
in their role and now we have four women
in there
and that's great
and
you know at least one of their dads is
super involved with us but
um and so it's
one thing that i've learned is that you
have to have that
and if you don't have that then you have
to address it quickly
and those outliers you know let's solve
that problem let's get it out in the
open here right and if there you know if
it doesn't work out it's not going to
work out
that's a heck of a thanksgiving dinner
yeah next year well i don't know if it'd
be legal but i'd have to check with our
compliance and
you know they'd have to vet you
you can come you can come and see what
it's all about this room is full
oh man well yeah i'll be back next year
then all right awesome
last question in 2014 i watched this
video
four years ago
uh
of you competing
in i believe your first swim meet
against your brother terry
uh and you came out victorious
not really
okay so let's i wonder
here's what happened
i had researched this thing because i'm
that's how i am you practice no i didn't
but i researched it in swimming if you
flinch on that starter block
it's a false start you can't twitch a
finger
and because they would be doing that to
get their buddy to move or the guy next
to him you know so you have to be
rock solid
well when we went terry was leaning
forward as the gun was going off so he's
moving
and so i was like no no no false start
no no no no and he couldn't hear me he
was already in the water and so he took
off like a bat out of you nowhere
for the end of the pool and couldn't
hear me and got to the end of the pool
and it was a down and back
well that's a hard thing to do with a
guy with no body fat and so he burned a
lot of energy and he come up on that end
of the pool and he was like where's
where's he actually didn't see me
and so we stopped him and then he came
back and then we went another one and i
beat him
but it's the only time that
you know i wouldn't say that he was
tuckered out and that's a reason why
and i'll also say this we did a time
where we timed my race
the one i won
and then we timed his first down to the
wall
and then we timed his the actual race
where once he hit the wall we timed him
on the way back and he beat me
now how's that for being a that's pretty
honest that's pretty honest accountable
wow person
and i'm gonna tell you something else
getting in those shorts those swim
trunks that's impressive they are tight
yeah
so is there
is outside of wrestling is there uh
a thing that terry got the better of you
i mean i guess this could count as one
uh that you're still really bitter about
that you need to avenge
i mean that's past i mean we he's got an
uno title we have uno
world championships he's got a uno title
i have i have yet to have one morning
star has two titles that's unprecedented
so there's only four trophies out there
and terry's got one of those and i don't
have one yet yeah well it's still time
tom thank you so much for letting a
russian with a tie into your home
thanks for listening to this
conversation with tom brands to support
this podcast please check out our
sponsors in the description
and now let me leave you with some words
from marcus aurelius
the art of living is more like wrestling
than dancing
thank you for listening and hope to see
you next time