Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
Lisa Feldman Barrett her second time on
the podcast she's a neuroscientist at
Northeastern University and one of my
favorite people her new book called 7
and a half lessons about the brain is
out now as of a couple of days ago so
you should definitely support Lisa by
buying it and sharing with friends if
you like it it's a great short intro to
the human brain quick mention of each
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as a side note let me say that Lisa just
like manolis Kellis is a local brilliant
mind and friend and someone I can see
talking to many more times sometimes
it's fun to talk to a scientist not just
about their field of expertise but also
about random topics even silly ones from
love to music to philosophy ultimately
it's about having fun something I know
nothing about this conversation is
certainly that it may not always work
but it's worth a shot I think it's
valuable to alternate along all kinds of
Dimensions like between deeper technical
discussions and more fun random
discussion from Liberal thinker to
conservative thinker from musician to
athlete from CEO to Junior engineer from
friend to stranger variety makes life
and conversation more interesting let's
see where this little podcast journey
goes if you enjoy this thing subscribe
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support on patreon or connect with me on
Twitter at Lex Freedman and now here's
my conversation with Lisa Felman
Barrett based on the comments in our
previous conversation I think a lot of
people will be very disappointed I
should say to learn that you are in fact
married as they say all the good ones
are taken okay so uh I'm a fan of your
husband as well Dan he's a programmer
musician so a man after my own heart can
I ask a ridiculously over romanticized
question of when did you first fall in
love with Dan it's actually it's a
really it's a really romantic story I
think so I was divorced by the time I
was 26 27 26 I guess and I was in my
first academic job which was Penn State
University which is in the middle of
Pennsylvania surrounded by mountains so
you have it's four hours to get anywhere
to get to Philadelphia New York
Washington I mean you're basically stuck
you know um and I was very fortunate to
have um a lot of other assistant
professors who were hired at the same
time as I was so there were a lot of us
we were all friends which was really fun
um but I was single and I didn't want to
date a student and there were no and I
wasn't going to date somebody in my
department that's just a recipe for
disaster yeah so so even at 20 whatever
you were you were already wise enough to
know that yeah a little bit maybe yeah I
wouldn't call me wise at that age but
anyways um not sure that I would say
that I'm wise now but um and so um after
a you know I was spending probably 16
hours a day in the lab because it was my
first year and as an assistant professor
and there's a lot to do and I was also
bitching and moaning to my friends that
you know I hadn't had sex in I don't
know how many you know months and it was
I was starting to you know become
unhappy with my life and um I think at a
certain point they just got tired of
listening to me and moan and said
just do something about it then like do
you know if you're unhappy and so the
first thing I did was I I made friends
with a sushi chef in town and this is
like a State College Pennsylvania in the
early 90s was there was like a pizza
shop and a sub shop and actually a very
good bagel shop and one good coffee shop
and maybe one nice restaurant I mean
there was really but there was a the
Second Son of a Japanese sushi chef who
was not going to inherit the restaurant
and so he moved to Pennsylvania and was
giving Sushi lessons so I met this guy
the sushi the sushi chef and we decided
to throw a sushi party at the coffee
shop so we basically it was the goal was
to invite every eligible bachelor really
within like a 20 mile radius MH we had a
totally fun time I wore an awesome
crushed velvet burgundy dress it was
beautiful dress um and I didn't meet any
I met a lot of friend new friends but I
did not meet anybody so then I thought
okay well maybe I'll try the personals
ads which I had never used before in my
life and um I first tried the paper
personals ads like a then newspaper like
in the newspaper that didn't work and
then a friend of mine said oh you know
there's this thing called Net News so
we're going this is like
1992 maybe so there was this Anonymous
you could do it anonymously so you would
you would read um you could post or you
could read ads and then respond to an
address which was Anonymous and you that
was yolked to somebody's real address
and um and there was always a lag
because it was this like a bulletin
board sort of thing so at first I read I
read them over and I decided to to
respond to one or two and you know it
was interesting sorry this is not on the
internet yeah this is totally on the
internet but it takes there's a delay of
a couple days or whatever right it's
1992 there's no web web no pictures
there's no pictures the web doesn't
exist it's all done in asky format sort
of
um and you know but
the but the ratio of um men to women was
like 10 to one I mean there were many
more men because it was basically
academics and the government that was it
those no I mean I think AOL maybe was
just starting to become popular
but
um and so the first uh person I met told
me that he was a um he wor he was a
scientist who worked for NASA
and um yeah um anyways it turned out
that he didn't actually yeah this is how
they brag is as like you elevate your as
opposed to saying you're taller than you
are you say like your position is high
yeah and I actually I would have been
fine dating somebody who wasn't a
scientist it's just that they have it's
just that whoever I date has to just
accept that I am and that I'm I was
pretty ambitious and was trying to make
my career and you know that's not that
that's not an I think it's maybe more
common now for men to maybe accept that
in their female Partners but at that
time not not so intimidating I guess yes
I I that has been said and so um and so
then the next one I actually
corresponded with and we actually got to
the point of talking on the phone and we
had this really kind of funny
conversation where you know we're
chatting and he said he he introduces
the idea that um you know he's really
looking for a dominant woman and I'm
thinking I'm a psychologist by training
so I'm thinking oh he means sex roles
like I'm like no I'm very assertive and
I'm glad you think that you know okay
anyways long story short that's not
really what he
meant okay got it yeah
so and I just you know that will just
show you my level of naive like I was
like I didn't completely I was like well
yeah you know no at one point he asked
me how I felt about him uh wearing my
lingerie and I was like I don't even
share my lingerie with my sister like I
don't share my linger with anybody you
know no no the third one I interacted
with was a banker who lived in
Singapore and
um that that conversation didn't last
very long because he made an anal I
guess he he made an analogy between me
and uh character in The Fountain Head um
the woman who's who's raped in the
Fountain Head and I was like okay that's
not that's not a good that's not a good
that's not a good one not that part not
that scene not that scene so then I um
so then I was like okay you know what
I'm going to post my own ad and so I did
I posted well first I wrote my ad and
then of course I checked it with my my
friends who were all also assistant
professors they're like my little greek
chorus and then I posted it and I got
some like uh I don't know 80 something
responses in 24 hours I mean it was do
you remember the
pitch um like how how you I guess
condensed yourself I don't remember it
exactly although Dan has it um but um
actually for our 20th wedding
anniversary he took our our exchanges
and he printed them off and put them in
a leatherbound book for us to read which
was really sweet um yeah I think I was
just really direct like I'm almost 30
I'm a scientist I'm not looking to you
know I'm I'm looking for something
serious and you know but the thing is I
I forgot to say where my location was
yeah and my age yeah which I forgot yeah
so I got lots of I mean I will say so I
printed off all of the responses and um
I had all my friends over and we were
you know had a big I made a big um pot
of gumbo and we drank through several
bottles of wine reading these responses
and
I would say for the most part they were
really sweet like Earnest and genuine as
much as you could tell that somebody's
being genuine it seemed you know there
were a couple of really funky ones like
you know this one couple who told me
that I was their soulmate the two of
them then they were looking for you know
a third person and I was like okay but
mostly super seemed seemed like super
genuine people and so I chose five men
to start corresponding with and I was
corresponding with them and then then
about a week later I get this other
email and okay and then I post something
the next day that said okay you know
thank you so much and I'm going to I
answered every person back but then
after that I said okay and I'm not going
to answer anymore you know because it
was they were still coming in and I
couldn't you know I have a job and you
know a house to take care of and stuff
so um and then about a week later I get
this other email and um he says you know
he just describes himself like I'm this
I'm this I'm this I'm a chef I'm a
scientist I'm a this I'm a this and so I
emailed him back and I said you you know
you seem interesting you can write me at
my actual address if you want here's my
address I'm not really responding I'm
not really responding to other people
anymore but you seem interesting you
know you can write to me if you want um
and then he wrote to me and uh I um then
I wrote him back and I it was it was a
non-descript kind of email and I wrote
him back and I said thanks for
responding you know I'm really busy
right now I'm I was was in the middle of
writing my first slate of Grant
application so I was really consumed and
I said I'll get back to you in a couple
of days and so I did I waited a couple
days I until my grants were you know
safe Grant application safely out the
door and then I emailed him back and
then he emailed me and then really
across two days we sent a 100
emails and text only was there pictures
and any of that text only text only wow
and then so this was like a Thursday and
a Friday and then Friday he said let's
talk on the weekend on the phone and I
said okay and he wanted to talk Sunday
night and I had a date Sunday night so I
said okay sure we can talk Sunday night
um and then I was like well you know I
don't really want to cancel my date so
I'm just going to call him on Saturday
so I just called I co called them on
Saturday and a woman answered oh wow
that's not cool not
cool and uh so she says you know hello
and I say oh you know it's down there
and she said sure can I ask who's
calling and I said it tell them it's
Lisa and she went oh my God oh my God
I'm just a friend I'm just a friend I
just have to tell you I'm just a friend
and I was like yeah this is adorable
right she doesn't and then he gets on
the phone not high nice to be the first
thing he says to me she's just a friend
so
I was just so Charmed really by the
whole thing so it was it was yam kapor
it was the Jewish um uh day of atonement
that was ending and they were baking
cookies and going to a break fast so
people you know as you know fast all day
and and then they go to a party and they
break fast so uh I thought okay I'll
just um I'll just you know cancel my
date so I did and I stayed home and we
talked for 8
hours um and then the next night for 6
hours and it basically it just went on
like that and then uh by the end of the
week he um he flew to State College and
you know we had gone through this whole
thing where ID said we're going to take
it slow we're going to get to know each
other you know and then really by I
think we talked like two or three times
these like really long conversations and
then he said I'm just going to fly there
and then so of course there's I don't
even know that there were fax machines
at that point maybe there were but
I don't think so anyway so he we
decideed we'll exchange pictures and um
so he you know I take my photograph and
I give it to my secretary and I say to
my
secretary facts this I say this say send
this priority mail priority mail and he
goes okay I'll send a priority mail
Priority Mail he's like I know Priority
Mail okay and then uh so I get Dan's
photograph in the in the mail um and um
you know it's it's him in a in a in
shorts and you can see that he's
probably somewhere like the Bahamas or
something like that and it's like
cropped so clearly what he's done is
he's taken a photograph where you know
he's in in it with someone else who
turned out to be his ex-wife so I'm
thinking well this is awesome you know I
I've hit the jackpot he's he's you know
very appealing to me very attractive and
um and then you know my photograph
doesn't show up and it doesn't show up
and you know so like one day and then
two days and then you know he's he's
like you know you're I said well I I
asked my secretary to send a priority I
mean I don't know you know um what he
did and uh and he's like I said I'm like
well you don't have to you know you
don't have to come and he's like no no
no I'm gonna I'm gonna you know we've
had like five dates the equivalent of
five dates practically um and then um so
he's supposed to fly on a Thursday or
Friday I can't remember and uh I get a
call like maybe an hour before his
flight's supposed to leave and he says
hi and I say and it's just something in
his voice right and I say cuz at this
point I think I've talked to him like
for 25 hours I don't know and he says hi
and I'm like you got the picture and
he's like yeah and I'm like you don't
like it and he's like
well I'm sure it's not I'm sure it's
your I'm sure just not a good you know
it's not it's probably not your best oh
no you know you don't you don't have to
come and he's like no no no I'm coming
and I'm like no you don't have to come
and he's like no no I really want to I'm
you know I'm I'm getting on the plane
I'm like you don't have to get on the
plane um he's like no I'm getting on the
plane and so I go down to my I go I'm in
my office this is happening right so I
go downstairs to my one of my closest
friends who's still actually one of my
closest friends um who is one of my
colleagues and um Kevin and I say Kevin
and I go to Kevin I go Kevin Kevin Kevin
he doesn't like the photograph and
Kevin's like well which photograph did
you send and I'm like well you know the
one where we're shooting pool and he's
like you sent that photograph that's a
horrible photograph I'm like yeah but
it's the only one that I had that was
like where my hair was kind of similar
to what it is now and he's like
Lisa like do I have to check everything
for you you know you should not have
sent that yeah you know but still he
flew over but so he flew where from by
the way uh he was in he was in graduate
school at Amherst yeah at um UMass
Amherst so he flew
and um I picked him up
and at the airport and he was happy so
whatever the concern was was gone yeah
and um I was dressed you know I
carefully carefully dressed were you
nervous I was really really nervous cuz
I I am not I don't really believe in
fate and I don't really think there's
only one person that you can be with but
I
think
you know people who some people are
curvy they're kind of complicated and so
the number of people who fit them is
maybe less than I like it mathematically
speaking yeah I got it um and so when I
was going to pick him up at the airport
I was thinking well this could I could
be going to pick up the the person I'm
going to
marry or not I mean like I really but I
really you know like our conversations
were just very authentic and very moving
and um and we really connected and and I
really felt like he understood me
actually um in in a way that a lot of
people don't and um and and what was
really nice was at the time um you know
the airport was this tiny little airport
out in a cornfield basically and so
driving back to the town we were in the
car for 15 minutes completely in the
dark as I was driving and so it was very
similar to we had just spent you know 20
something hours on the telephone um
sitting in the dark talking to each
other so it was very familiar and we
basically spent the whole weekend
together and you met all my friends and
we had a big party and um and at the end
of the
weekend um I said okay you know if we're
going to give this a shot we we probably
we shouldn't see other people so it's a
risk you know it's commitment um but but
I just didn't see how it would work if
we were dating people locally and then
also seeing each other at a distance
because I you know I've had longdistance
relationships with war and they're hard
and they they take a lot of they take a
lot of effort and so we decided we'd
give it three months and see what
happened and that was it this such an
interesting thing like we're all what is
it there are several billion of us and
we're kind of roaming this world and
then you kind of stick together you find
find somebody that just like gets you
and it's interesting to think about
there's probably thousands if not
millions of people that would would be
sticky to you depending on the curvature
of your space
but what what is the could you speak to
the stickiness like to the just the
falling in love like seeing that
somebody really gets you maybe by way
of um telling do you think do you
remember there was a moment when you
just realized damn it I think I'm like I
think that's this is the guy I think I'm
in love we were having these
conversations actually from the really
from the second weekend we were together
so he flew back the next weekend to stay
College because my birthday it was my
30th birthday my friends were throwing
me a party and we went hiking and we
hiked up some mountain and we were
sitting on a cliff over this you know
Overlook and talking to each other and I
was thinking and I actually said to him
like I I haven't really known you very
long but I feel like I'm falling in love
with you which can't possibly be
happening I must be projecting but it be
projecting but it certainly feels that
way right like I don't believe in love
at first sight so this can't really be
happening but it sort of feels like it
is and he was like I know what you mean
and so for the first three months or
four months we would say things to each
other like I feel like I'm in love with
you
but you know but that can't but things
don't really work like that so but you
know so and then it became a joke like I
feel like I'm in love with you and then
eventually you know I think um but I
think that was one moment where we were
we were talking about I don't
just you know not just all the great
aspirations you have are all the things
but also things you don't like about
yourself things that you're worried
about things that you're scared of and
then I think the that was sort of
solidified the relationship and then
there was one weekend where we went to
Maine in the winter which I I mean I
really love the beach always but in the
winter particularly CU it's just
beautiful and calm and whatever yeah and
I also I I do find beauty in starkness
sometimes like so there's this Grand
Majestic scene of you know this very
powerful ocean and it's all these like
beautiful blue Grays and it's just it's
just stunning and so we were sitting on
this huge Rock in Maine and where we had
gone for the weekend it was freezing
cold and I honestly can't remember what
he said or what I said or what but I I
definitely remember having this feeling
of um I absolutely want to stay with
this person like I and I don't know what
my life will be like if I'm not with
this person like I need to be with this
person can we from a scientific and a
human perspective uh dig into your
belief that first uh love at first sight
is not is not possible you don't believe
in it because there is there you don't
think there's like a magic where you see
somebody in the in the Jack carck way
and you're like wow that's something
that's that's a special little oh I
definitely oh I definitely think can
connect with someone instant in an
instance and I definitely think you can
say oh there's something there and I'm
really clicking with that person
romantically but also just with friends
it's possible to do that you recognize a
mind that's like yours or that's
compatible with yours there are ways
that you feel like you're being
understood or that you understand
something about this person or maybe you
see something in this person that you
find really compelling or intriguing but
I think you know your brain is
predictive organ right you're you you're
using your past you're projecting you're
using your past to yeah make predictions
and I mean not deliberately that's how
your brain is wired that's what it does
and so it's filling in all of the gaps
that you you know there are lots of gaps
of information that you don't you know
information you don't have and so your
brain is filling those in
and
um but isn't that what love is no I
don't think so actually I mean to some
extent sure you you always you know
there's research to show that people who
are in love always see the best in each
other and they you know when there's a
when there's a negative interpretation
or positive interpretation you know they
choose the positive on there's a little
bit of positive illusion there you know
going on that's what the research shows
but I think um
I think that when you find somebody who
not just
appreciates your faults but Lo loves you
for them actually you know like maybe
even doesn't see them as a fault
that's you so you have to be honest
enough about what
you're what your faults are so it's easy
to love someone for all the things that
they um
uh for all the wonderful characteristics
they have it's harder I think to love
someone despite their faults or maybe
even the faults that they see aren't
really faults at all to you they're
actually something really special but
isn't isn't that can't you explain that
by saying the brain kind of like you're
projecting it's you're you have a
conception of um a human being or just a
a spirit that really connects next with
you and you're projecting that onto that
person and within within that framework
all their faults then become beautiful
like little maybe but you you just have
to pay attention to the prediction
error no but maybe that's what love like
maybe you IGN you start ignoring the
prediction error that's maybe love is
just your
ability uh like to ignore the prediction
era well I think that there's some
research that might say that but that's
not my experience I guess um but there
is some research that says I mean
there's some some research that says you
have to have an optimal margin of
Illusion which means that you um that
you put a positive spin on on smaller
things but you don't ignore the bigger
things right and I think without being
judgmental at all when someone says to
me you know um you're not who I thought
you were I mean nobody says has said
that to me in a really long time but
certainly when I was younger that was
you know you're not who I thought you
were my reaction to that was well whose
fault is
that you know yeah um I'm a pretty I'm a
pretty upfront person um I mean I will
though say that in my
experience people people don't lie to
you about who they are they lie to
themselves in your
presence yeah um and so you
know you don't want to get T tied up in
that tangled up in that and I think from
the ge-o Dan and I were just for
whatever reason maybe it's because we
both have been divorced already and you
know
um you know he told me who he thought he
was and he he was pretty accurate as far
as I pretty much actually I mean I
there's
very I can't say that I've ever come
across a characteristic in him that
really surprised me in a bad way
it's hard to know yourself it it is hard
to know yourself to communicate that for
sure I mean I'll say you know I had the
advantage of training as a therapist
which meant for five years I was under a
microscope yeah um you know when
I was training as a therapist it was
hour for hour supervision which meant if
you were in a room with a client for an
hour you had an hour with a with a
supervisor so that Supervisor was behind
the mirror why for your session and then
you went and had an hour of discussion
about what you said what you didn't say
learning to use your own react your own
feelings and thoughts as a tool to probe
the mind of the client and so on and so
you you can't help but learn a lot of
you can't learn help but learn a lot
about yourself in that process do you
think um knowing or learning how the
sausage is made ruins the magic of the
actual experience like you as a
neuroscientist who studies the brain do
you think it ruins the magic of like
love at first sight or are you do you
consciously are still able to lose
yourself in the moment I'm definitely
able to lose myself in the moment is
wine
involved not always chocolate I mean
some kind of mind altering substance
right but um yeah for sure I mean I
guess what I would say though is that
[Music]
um for me part of the magic is the
process like so ah you know so so I
remember a day there was well I was
working on this on this on this book of
essays I I was in New York um I can't
remember why I was in New York but I was
in New York for something and I was in
Central Park and I was looking at all
the people with their babies and I was
thinking every every that each one of
these there's a tiny little brain yeah
that's wiring itself right now and I and
I I just I felt in that moment I was
like I am never going to look at an
infant in the same way ever again and so
to me I mean honestly before I started
learning about brain development I
thought babies were cute but you know
not that interesting until they could do
interact with you and do things of
course my own infant I thought was
extraordinarily interesting but you know
they're kind of like lumps that you know
until they can you know interact with
you but they are anything but lumps I
mean like you know so and part of the I
mean I all I can say is I have deep
affection now for like tiny little
babies in a way that I didn't really um
before um ju because of the I'm just so
curious but the actual process the
mechanisms of uh the the the wiring of
the brain the learning all the magic of
the the neurobiology yeah and or you
know something like you know um when you
make eye contact with someone
directly sometimes you know you you feel
something right yeah and um yeah that's
weird what is it and what is that and so
so to me that's not um that's not
backing away from the moment that's like
expanding the moment it's like that's
incredibly cool you know when I was um
I'll just say that when I was when I was
in graduate school I
also was in therapy because it's almost
a given that you're going to be in
therapy yourself if you're going to
become a therapist and I had a deal you
know with my therapist which was that I
could call time out at any moment that I
wanted to As Long As I was being
responsible about it and I wasn't using
it as a way to get out of something and
he could tell me no you know he could
Decline and say no we're you're you know
you're using this to get out of
something but I could call time out
whenever I want and say what are you
doing right now like what are you here's
what I'm experiencing what are you
trying to do like I wanted to use my own
experience to
interrogate um what the process was and
that made
it more helpful in a way do you know
what I mean so yeah I don't I don't
think learning how something works makes
it less magical actually but that's just
me I guess I don't know would you yeah
uh
yes I tend to uh have two modes one is
one is an engineer and one is a romantic
and I'm conscious of like like the gear
like you like there's two rooms you can
go into the one the engineer room and I
think that ruins the romance so I tend
to there's two rooms one is the
engineering room think from first
principles how do we build the thing
that creates this kind of uh behavior
and then you go into the ROM ROM Mantic
room where you're like emotional it's a
roller coaster and then you're uh the
thing is let's take it slow and then you
get married the next night that you just
this giant mess and you write a song and
then you cry and then you send a bunch
of text and anger and and whatever and
somehow you're in Vegas and there's
random people and you're drunk and
whatever all that like in poetry and
just mess of it fighting yeah yeah
that's not those are two rooms and you
go back between between them but I think
the way you put it is quite poetic I
think you're much you're much better at
adulting uh with love uh than uh then
perhaps I am because there is a magic to
children I also
think like of adults as children it's
kind of cool to see it's a cool thought
experiment to look at adults and think
like that used to be a baby and then
that's like a fully wired baby and it's
just walking around pretending to be
like all serious and important wearing a
suit or something but that used to be a
baby and then you think of like the
parenting and all the experiences they
had like it's it's cool to think of it
that way but then you I started thinking
like from a machine learning perspective
but once you're like the romantic
moments all that kind of stuff all that
falls away I forget about all that I
don't know that's the Russian thing
maybe maybe but I also think it might be
an age thing or maybe an experienc thing
so I
think um we all I mean if you're exposed
to Western culture at all you are
exposed to the uh sort of idealized
stereotypic romantic romantic you know
uh exchange and what what does it mean
to be romantic and um so here's a test
um um I'm see how to phrase it okay so
not really test but this this tells you
something about your own ideas about
romance uh for Valentine's Day one year
my husband bought me a six-way
plug is that romantic or not
romantic like sorry 6p play that's like
an out like a yeah like to put in an
outlet is that romantic or not
romantic I mean depends the look in his
eyes when he does it I mean it depends
on the conversation that led up to that
point depends how
much uh it's like the music because you
have a very you're you're both from the
my experiences with you as a fan you
have both a romantic nature but you have
a very pragmatic like you cut through
the of of uh the fuzziness and
there there's something about a six-way
plug that cuts to the that
connects to the human like he
understands who you are exactly yeah
exactly yeah that was the most romantic
gift he could have given me because he
knows me so well he has a deep
understanding of me which is that I will
sit and suffer and complain yeah about
the fact that I have to plug and unplug
things and I will and moan until
the cows come home but it would never
occur to me to go buy a bloody six-way
plug whereas for him he bought it he
plugged it in he arranged he taped up
all my wires he made it like really
usable and for me that was uh that was
the
best it was the most romantic thing
because he understood who I was and he
did something very or you know just the
Casual like we moved into a house that
went we went from having a two-car
garage to a onecar garage and I said
okay you know I'm from Canada I'm not
bothered by Snow Well I mean I'm a
little little bothered by snow but he's
very bothered by snow so I'm like okay
you can park your car in the garage it's
fine every day when it snows he goes out
and cleans my car every
day like I never asked him to do it he
just does it because he knows that I'm
cutting it really close in the morning
you know when we when we all used to go
to work um I have it timed to the second
so that I can get up as late as possible
work out as long as possible you know
just to and into my office like a minute
before my first meeting and so if it
snows unexpectedly or something I'm
screwed because now that's an added you
know an added 10 or 15 minutes and I'm
going to be late um anyways you know
it's just these little tiny things that
he's he's um he's he's a really
easygoing guy and he doesn't look like
somebody who pays attention to
detail he doesn't fuss about detail but
he definitely pays attention to detail
and it's it is very very romantic in the
sense sense that he
um you know he loves me despite my
little details it understands you yeah
it is kind of hilarious that that is the
six-way plug is um the the most
fulfilling
richest uh display of romance in your
life I love it I love that's mean about
romance romance is really it's not all
about chocolates and flowers and you
know whatever I mean those are all nice
too but um sometimes it's about the
sixth way plan sometimes it's about the
six way plan so um maybe one way I could
ask before we talk about the details you
also have the author of another book is
we talked about how emotions are made so
it's interesting to talk about the
process of writing you mentioned you
were in New York what have you learned
from writing these two books about the
actual process of writing and maybe I
don't know what's the most interesting
thing to talk about there maybe the
biggest challenges or the the boring
mundane systematic like day-to-day of
what worked for you like hacks or or
even just about the
Neuroscience that you've learned through
the process of trying to write them
here's the thing I learned if you think
that it's going to take you a year to
write your book it's going to take you
three years to write your book that's
the first thing I learned is that you no
matter how organized you are it's always
going to take way longer than what you
think um in part
because um very few people make an
outline and then just stick to it you
know the the some of the topics really
take on a life of their own and to some
extent you want to let
them get you want to let them have their
voice you know you want to follow leads
until you feel satisfied that you've
dealt with the topic um uh appropriately
but I and that part is actually fun it's
not fun to feel like you're con ly
behind the eightball in terms of time
yeah um but it is the exploration and
the foraging for information is
incredibly fun for me anyways I found it
really enjoyable and if I wasn't also
running a lab at the same time and
trying to keep my family going uh you
know it would have been the whole thing
would have just been fun um but I would
say the hardest thing about the most
important thing I think I learned is
also the hardest thing and that for me
which is
um knowing what to leave at out a really
good
Storyteller knows what to leave out in
in academic
writing you you shouldn't leave anything
out you you all the details should be
there right and
um and I you know I've written or
participated in in
writing over 200
papers um peer-reviewed papers so I'm
pretty good with detail knowing what to
leave out knowing what to leave out and
not harming the validity of the story
that is a tricky tricky thing it was
tricky when I wrote how emotions are
made but that's a
standard um popular science book so it's
300 something pages and then you know it
has like a thousand endnotes and then
each of the endnotes is attached to a
web note which is also long so I mean
you know it's um
and it start and I mean the final draft
I I wrote three drafts of that book
actually and the final draft and then I
had to cut by a third I mean or I mean I
you know it was
like 50,000 words or something and I had
to cut it down to like 110 so um
obviously it's I struggle with what to
leave out you know brevity is not my
strong suit I'm always telling people
that it's a warning so that's why this
book was a I you know I always been
really fascinated with essays I I love
reading essays and after reading a a a
small set of essays by an fatan um
called at large and at small which I
just loved these little essays what's
what's the topic of that those essays
they are they're called um familiar
essays so there the topics are like
everyday topics like
male um coffee chocolate I mean just
like and what she does is she weaves her
own experience it's a little bit like
these conversations that you're so good
at curating actually um you're weaving
together history and philosophy and
Science and also personal Reflections
and a little bit you feel like you're
like eavesdropping on someone's train of
thought in a way it it's really they're
really compelling to me and even if it's
just like a mundane topic yeah but it's
so interesting to um learn about like
all of these little
stories in the in the wrapping of the
history of like male like that's in
that's really interesting and so I read
these essays and then I wrote to her a
little fan girl email um this was many
years ago and um and I said I I I just
love you I love this book and how did
you learn to write essays like this and
she gave me a reading list of essays
that I should read like writers and so I
read them all and anyway so I decided it
would be a really good challenge for me
to try to write something really brief
where I
could focus on you know one or two
really fascinating tidbits of of
Neuroscience connect it to connect each
one to something philosophical
or um you know like just a question
about human nature do it in a really
brief format
without
violating the validity of the
science that was a I just set myself
this what I thought of as a really
really big challenge in part because it
was an incredibly hard thing for me to
do in the first book yeah we should say
that this is uh the seven and a half
lesson is a very short book I mean it's
uh it's like it embodies uh brevity
right the whole point throughout is just
I mean you you could tell that there's
editing like there's pain in trying to
bring it as brief as possible as clean
as possible yeah yeah so it's I the way
I think of it is um you know it's a
little book of big science and Big Ideas
yeah really big ideas in and in brief
little packages and um you know I wrote
it um so that people could read it I
love reading on the beach I love reading
essays on the beach I read it I wrote it
so people could read it on the beach or
in the bathtub or you know a subway stop
yeah even if the beach is frozen over in
the snow yeah so my husband Dan calls it
the first Neuroscience Beach read that's
his um that's his phrasing
yeah and like like you said you learned
a lot about writing from your husband
like you were saying offline well he's
he is of the two of us he is the better
writer he is a masterful writer um he um
he's also I mean he you know he's a PhD
in computer science he's he's a software
engineer but he's he's also really good
at uh organization of knowledge so he
built for a company he used to work for
he built one of the first Knowledge
Management systems and he's he now works
at Google where he does engineering
education like he's he understands how
to tell a good
story just you know about anything
really um he's got got impeccable timing
he's really funny and luckily for me he
knows very little about psychology or
Neuroscience well now he knows more
obviously but so you know he was really
when how motions were
made um you know he was really really
helpful to me because um the first draft
of every chapter was me talking to him
about what on you know I would talk out
loud about what I wanted to say and the
order in which I wanted to say it and
then I would write it
and then he would read it and um tell me
all the bits that could be
excised yeah and sometimes we would you
know I should say I mean we don't he and
I don't really argue about much except
um directions in the car like we're
that's where're that's if we're going to
have an argument that's going to be
where it's going to happen where what's
the what's the nature of the argument
about directions exactly I don't really
know it's just that we're very I think
it's that spatially you know he he um
I use egocentric space so I want to say
you know turn left like I always I'm I'm
reasoning in relation to like my own
physical corporeal body so you know you
walk to the church and you turn left and
you then you you know whatever you know
I'm always like and his you know he
gives directions um aloc centrically
which means um organized around north
south east west right so to you the the
Earth is at the center of the solar
system and to him no I'm reason I'm at
theer you're at the center of the Sol
system okay so uh anyway so we we but
but here we you know we we had some
really RI roaring arguments like really
rip roaring arguments where he would say
like who is this for is this for the
1% and I'd be like 1% meaning not you
know not wealth but like civilians
versus academics you know are these for
the scientists or for the CI is this for
the civilians right so he speaks for the
for the people
for the people and I'd be like no you
have to and so he made you know after
one terrible argument that we had where
it was really starting to affect our our
relationship because we were so mad at
each other all the time um he made these
little signs writing and Science and we
only us them this this was like when you
when you pulled out a sign that's it
like the other person just wins and you
have to stop fighting about it yeah and
that's it great and so we just did that
um and we didn't really have to use it
too much for this book cuz this book was
in some ways
um uh you know I didn't have to learn a
lot of new things for this book I had to
learn some but I a lot of
um what I learned for seven and uh for
um how tions are made really St stood me
in good stead for for this book so there
was a little bit each essay was a little
bit of learning a couple were was a
little more than than a small amount but
um but I I didn't have so much trouble
here um I had a lot of trouble with the
first book um but still even here you
know um you know he would tell me that I
could take something out and I really
wanted to keep it and um I think we only
use the signs once well if we could dive
in some aspects of the book I I would
love that um can we talk about so one of
the essays looks at
evolution
let me ask the big question uh did the
human brain evolve to think that's
essentially the question that you
address in the essay can you speak to it
sure you know the the big cave out here
is that we don't really know why brains
evolved the the big why questions are
called
teologico those questions because we
don't don't know really why we don't
know the why
however for for a very long time the
Assumption was that Evolution worked in
a progressive upward scale that you
start off with simple organisms and
those organisms get more complex and
more complex and more complex now
obviously that's true in some like
really General way right that that um
life started off as single cell
organisms and you know things got more
complex but the idea that um that brains
evolved in some upward um trajectory
from simple brains in simple animals to
complex brains in complex animals is
called a philogenetic scale um and um
that philogenetic scale is embedded in a
lot of evolutionary thinking including
darwins actually um and it's been
seriously challenged I would say by
modern uh evolutionary bi biology um and
so you know thinking is something that
rationality is something that humans at
least in the west really prize um as a
great uh human achievement and so the
idea that the most common evolutionary
story is that you know brains evolved in
um like sedimentary rock um uh with you
know a layer for instincts that's your
lizard brain and a layer on top of that
uh uh for emotions that's your limic
system lyic meaning border so it borders
the parts that are for instincts oh
interesting and um and then um the uh
neocortex or new cortex where um
rationality is supposed to live that's
the sort of traditional story it just
keeps getting layered on top by
Evolution right and so you can think
about you know I mean sedimentary rock
is the way typically people describe it
the way I sometimes like to think about
it is um you know thinking about the
cerebral cortex like uh icing on an
already baked cake you know um where you
know the cake is your inner Beast these
like boiling you know roiling instincts
and emotions that have to be contained
and the the by the cortex and the the
it's just um it's a fiction it's a myth
it it's a myth that you can trace all
the way back to stories about morality
um in ancient Greece but what you can do
is look at the scientific record and say
well there there's others there are
other stories that you could tell about
brain Evolution and and the the context
in which brains evolved so when you look
at creatures who don't have brains and
you look at creatures who
do what's the difference
and um you can look at you know some
animals um so we call scientists call an
environment that an animal lives in a
niche their environmental Niche what are
the things what are the parts of the
environment that matter to that animal
and um so there's some animals whose
Niche hasn't changed in 400 million
years so they're they're not these
creatures are modern creatures but
they're living in a niche that hasn't
changed much and so their biology hasn't
changed much and you can kind of verify
that by looking at the genes that lur
deep you know in the molecular structure
of
cells and so you can by looking at
various animals in their developmental
State meaning not you don't look at
adult animals you look at embryos of
animals and developing animals you can
see you can piece together a different
story and that story is that brains
evolved under
the selection pressure of hunting that
in the Cambrian Period hunting emerged
on the scene where animals deliberately
ate one another um and what so you know
before the Cambrian Period the animals
didn't really have well they didn't have
brains but they also didn't have senses
really the very very rudimentary senses
so the animal that I wrote about in
seven and a half lessons is called an
amphioxys or a lancelet and um little
amphioxys has no eyes it has no ears it
has no nose it it it it has no eyes it
has a couple of cells for
um uh detecting light and dark for
circadian rhythm purposes so and it it
it can't hear it has a vestibular cell
to keep its body upright um it has a
very rudimentary sense of touch and it
doesn't really have any internal organs
other than this like basically stomach
it's like a just like a it doesn't it
doesn't have an enteric nervous system
it doesn't have like a gut that you know
moves like we do it just has basically a
tube yeah um so it's like little
container like a little container yeah
and so and really it doesn't it doesn't
move very much it can move it just sort
of wriggles it doesn't have very
sophisticated movement and it's this
really sweet little animal it sort of
wriggles its way to a spot and then
plants itself in the sand and just
filters food as the food goes by um and
then when the food concentration
decreases it it just it it just um
ejects itself wriggles to the ne some
spot randomly where probabilistically
there will be more food and plants
itself again so it's it's not it's not
really aware
very aware that it has an environment it
has a niche but that Niche is very small
and it's not really experiencing that
Niche very much um so it's it's
basically like a little stomach on a
stick that's that's really what it is
and um but but when animals start to
literally hunt each
other um all of a sudden it becomes
important to have to be able to sense
your envir ironment because you need to
know is that blob up ahead going to eat
me or should I eat it mhm and so all of
a sudden you want distance senses are
very useful and so in the water distance
senses our
vision and a little bit
hearing um old faction smelling and
touch because in the water touch is a
distant sense because you can feel the
vibration so it's right so in um on air
on land you know vision is a distant
sense touch not so much but for
Elephants maybe right um the vibrations
vibrations um all faction definitely
because of the concentration of you know
the more concentrated something is the
more likely it is to be close to you so
animals developed senses they developed
a head like a literal head so aoys
doesn't even have a head really it's
just a what's the purpose of a head
that's a great question is it is it to
have a jaw that's a great question so
jaw so yes Jaws are a major um useful
feature yeah I would say they're a major
adaptation after there's a split between
vertebrates and invertebrates so
amphioxys is thought to be very very
similar to the animal that's before that
split but then after the development
very quickly after the development of a
head is the development of a jaw which
is a big big thing and um and what goes
along with that is the development of a
brain it's weird is that just a
coincidence that the thing the part of
our body of the M mammal I think body
that we eat with and like attack others
with is also the thing that
contains the uh all the majority of the
brain type of well actually the brain
goes with the development of a head and
the development of of a visual system
and an auditory system and an old
factory system and so on so um your
senses are developing and um and the
other thing that's happening right is
that animals are getting
bigger yeah because their and also their
Niche is getting bigger well this is the
just sorry to take the tiny tangent on
the niche thing is uh it seems like the
niche is getting bigger but not just
bigger like more complicated like shaped
in weird ways so like predation seems to
create like like the whole world becomes
your oyster whatever but like you also
start to carve out like the places in
which you can operate the best yeah and
in fact that's absolutely right and in
fact some scientists think that theory
of mind your ability to make inferences
about the in inner life of of other
creatures actually developed under the
selection pressure of predation
because it makes you a better Predator
do you ever look at you just said you
looked at at babies as these wiring
creatures do you ever think of humans as
just clever
Predators like that there is under uh
Underneath It All is
this uh the nian will to power in all of
its forms or are we now
friendlier yeah so it's interesting I
mean there there there are Zeitgeist in
how humans think about themselves right
and so if you look in the 20th
century you can see that um the idea of
an inner Beast that we just Predators
we're just basically animals baseless
animals violent animals that have to be
contained by culture and by our
prodigious
neocortex um really took hold
particularly after World War I
and really um held sway for much of that
Century um and then around at least in
Western writing I would say you know we
we're we're talking mainly about Western
Western Scientific writing Western
philosophical writing and and then you
know late 90s maybe um you start to see
books and articles about our social
nature that we're social animals and we
are social animals but what does that
mean exactly and um um about it's us
covering our different Natures in the
space of ideas it looks like I think so
I think so so um
so you know do um humans um are can
humans be violent yes can can humans be
really helpful ye yes actually and
humans are interesting creatures because
you know know other animals can also be
helpful to one another in fact there's a
whole literature booming literature on
how other animals um are
um you know support one another they
they regulate each other's nervous
systems in in interesting ways and they
will be helpful to one another right so
for example there's a whole literature
on rodents and how um they um they
signal one another what is safe to eat
and uh they um will
um perform uh acts of generosity to
their consp specifics that are related
to them or or who they were raised with
so if an animal was raised in a litter
that is that they were raised in
although not even at the same time
they'll be more likely to help that
animal so there's always some kind of
physical relationship between animals um
that predicts whether or not they'll
help one another for
humans
humans you know we have ways of
categorizing who's in our who's in our
group and who isn't by non-physical ways
right by even by just something abstract
like an idea and we are much more likely
to extend help to people in our own
group whatever that group may be um at
that moment whatever your whatever
feature you're using to Define who's in
your group and who isn't um we're more
likely to help those people than even
members of our own family at times so
humans are much more flexible in
their in the way that they help one
another but also in the way that they
harm one another so I
don't um I don't I don't think I
subscribe to
um you know we are primarily this or we
are primarily that I don't think have
humans have Essences in that way really
I apologize to take us in this direction
for a brief moment but I've been really
deep on Stalin and Hitler recently uh in
terms of reading and is there something
that you think about in terms of um the
nature of evil from a neuroscience
perspective is there some lessons that
are sort of
um
hopeful about human civilization
that uh we can find in our brain with
regard to the Hitlers of the world do
you do you think about the the nature of
evil yeah I do I don't know that what I
have to say is so useful from a I don't
know that I can say as a neuroscientist
Well here here's a study that you know
what I so I I sort of have to take off
my lab coat right and now I'm going to
now conjecture as a human who just also
who has Ain I but who also maybe has
some knowledge about Neuroscience but
I'm not speaking as a neuroscientist
when I say this because I don't think
neuroscientists know enough really to be
able to say but I guess I the kinds of
things I think about are
um what so I have always thought even
before I I knew anything about
Neuroscience um I've always thought that
um I don't think anybody could become
Hitler but I think the majority of
people can
be can do are capable of doing very bad
things um it's just the question is
really how much encouragement does it
take from the environment to get them to
do something bad that's what I kind of
when I look at the life of Hitler it
seems like there's so many
places where something could have
intervened inter changed completely the
person I mean there's like the
caricature like the obvious places where
he was an artist and if he wasn't
rejected as an artist he was a
reasonably good artist so that that
could have changed but just his entire
like where he went in Vienna and all
these kinds of things like like little
interactions could have changed and
there's probably millions of other uh
people who are uh capable who the
environment may be able to mold in the
same way it did this particular person
to create this particular kind of
charismatic leader in this particular
moment of time absolutely and I guess
the way I would the way that I would say
it I I would agree 100% And I guess the
way that I would say it is like
this in the west we have a way of
reasoning um about
causation which focuses on single simple
causes for things you know there's a
there's an Essence to Hitler there's an
Essence to his character
he was born with that essence or it was
forged very very early in his life and
that explains the um the landscape of
his the horrible landscape of his
behavior but there's another way to
think about it a way that actually is
much more consistent with what we know
about biology how biology Works um in
the physical world and that is that most
things are complex not as in wow this is
really complex and hard hard but complex
as in complexity that is more than the
sum of their parts and that most
phenomena have many
many weak nonlinear interacting causes
and so little things that we might not
even be aware of can shift someone's
developmental trajectory from this to
that and that's enough to take it on a
whole set of other paths that you know
that and that these things are happening
all the time so it's not random and it's
not really it's not deterministic in the
sense that like everything you do
determines your outcome but it's a
little more like um you know you're
nudging someone from one set of
possibilities to another set of
possibilities and I but I think the the
thing is the thing that I find
optimistic is that the the other side of
that coin is also
true right so look at all the people who
risk their lives to help people they
didn't even
know I mean I just watched Borat the new
Borat movie and the thing that I came
away with but you know the thing I came
away with
was look at how like generous people
were in that because he's making there
are a lot of people he makes fun of and
that's fine but think about like those
two guys those those the the Trump
supporter guys Trump supporter guys
those guys cool those kind those
kindness in them right they took a
complete stranger in a pandemic yeah
into their
house who does that like that's a really
nice thing or there's one scene I mean I
don't want to spoil it for people who
haven't seen it but there's you know
there's one scene where he goes in he
dresses up as a Jew
I I laugh myself sick at that scene
seriously but um but he goes in and he
and there are these two old Jewish
ladies yeah what a bunch of sweethearts
oh my gosh like really yeah I mean that
was what I was struck by actually I mean
there are other ones or or like the
babysitter right I mean she was really
kind and yeah so that's really what I
was more struck by like you know sure
there are other people who you know who
do do very bad things or say say bad
things or or whatever but you know or
like there's one guy who's completely
stoic like the guy at the um who's doing
the like you know sending the messages I
don't know if it's facts or whatever
he's just completely stoic but he's
doing his job actually you know like you
can't you don't know what he was
thinking inside his head you don't know
what he was feeling but he was totally
professional doing his job so I guess I
just I I had a a bit of a different um
you know view I guess and I so I also
think that about people I think
everybody is capable of kindness and um
but for but you know it's the question
is how much does it take and what are
the circumstances so for a lot some
people it's going to take a lot and for
some people it only takes a little bit
um but you know are we
actually cultivating um an environment
for the Next Generation that
um provides opportunities for people to
go in the direction of caring and
kindness yeah or you know and I'm not
I'm not saying that as like a you know
poana is uh person um I you know I think
there's a lot of room for competition
and debate and and so on um but I don't
see Hitler as an anomaly and I never
have that that was even before I I
learned anything about neuroscience and
now I was would say knowing what we know
about Developmental trajectories and
life histories and how important that is
um you know knowing what we know about
um that the whole question of like
nature versus nurture is a completely
wrong question you know we have the kind
of nature that requires nurture we have
the kind of genes that allow infants to
be born with unfinished brains where the
brains their brains are wired across a
25-year period with wiring instructions
from the world that is created for them
and so I don't think Hitler is an
anomaly um you know even if it's even if
it's less probable that that would
happen it's possible that it could
happen again and it's not it's not like
you know he's a bad seed I mean that
doesn't I just want to say for like of
course he's completely 100% responsible
for his actions and all the bad things
that happen so I'm not in any way this
is not me saying but the environment is
also responsible in part for creating
the evil in in this world so like
Hitler's and
different versions of even more subtle
more smaller scale versions of evil but
I tend to believe that uh there's a much
stronger uh I I don't like to talk about
evolutionary advantages but it seems
like it makes sense for love to be a
more
powerful uh emerging phenomena of our
collective intelligence versus hate and
evil and destruction because from a
survival from a niche perspective it
seems to be
uh like for in my own life in my
thinking about the intuition about the
way humans work together to solve
problems it seems that love is a very
useful tool I definitely agree with you
but I think the caveat here is that um
you know humans the research suggests
that humans are are capable of great act
of kindness and great acts of generosity
to people in their
ingroup
right and so we're also
tribal yeah I mean that's the K that's
the kitchy way to say it we're tribes
we're tribal yeah so that's the kitchy
way to say it what I would say is
that you know there are a lot of
features that you can use to describe
yourself you don't have one identity you
don't have one self you have many selves
you have many identities um sometimes
you're a man sometimes you're a
scientist sometimes you're a you have a
brother or a sister brother so sometimes
you're a brother you know you you
sometimes you're a friend sometimes
you're human so you can keep zooming out
yes living organism on Earth yes exactly
that's exactly that's exactly right and
so um there are there are some people
who there is research which suggests
that um there are some people who will
tell you I think it's appropriate and
better to help I should help my family
more than I should help my neighbors and
I should help my neighbors more than I
should help the average stranger and I
should help um you know the average
stranger in my country more than I
should help somebody outside my country
and I should help humans more than I
should help you know other animals and I
right so there's a clear hierarchy of
helping and there are other people who
um you know they are their Niche is much
more inclusive right and that they're
humans first right or or creatures of
the Earth first let's say um and I I
don't think we know how flexible those
attitudes are because I don't think the
research really tells us that
but in any case there are you know and
there are beliefs people also have
beliefs about there's this really
interesting research in um really in
anthropology um that looks
at what are cultures particularly afraid
of like what the people in a particular
culture are organizing their social
systems to prevent certain types of
problems so what are the problems that
they're worried about and and so there
are some cultures that are much more
hierarchical and some cultures that are
you know much more egalitarian there are
some cultures that you know in the
debate of like getting along versus
getting ahead there are some cultures
that really prioritize the individual
over the group and there are other
cultures that really prioritize the
group over the individual you know it's
not like one of these is right and one
of these is wrong it's that you know
different combinations of these features
are different solutions that humans have
come up with for for living in groups
which is a major adaptive advantage of
our
species um and it's not the case that
one of these is better and one of these
is worse although as a person of course
I have opinions about that and as a
person right I I can say I would very
much prefer certain I have certain
beliefs and I really want everyone in
the world to live by those beliefs you
know but as a scientist I know that it's
not really the case that for the species
any one of these is better than any
other they're different solutions that
work differentially well in
particular you know ecological parts of
the world but for individual
humans there are definitely some systems
that are better and some systems that
are worse right but when when
anthropologists or when neuroscientists
or biologists are talking they they not
usually talking about the lives of
individual people they're talking about
you know the species what's better for
the species the survivability of the
species and what's better for the
survivability of the species is
variation that we have lots of cultures
with lots of different solutions because
if the environment were to change
drastically um some uh some of those
Solutions will work better than others
and you can see that happening with coid
right so some people might be more
susceptible to this this virus and
others and so variation is very useful
say Co was much much more destructive
than it is and like I don't know 20% of
the population was died uh you know
that's it's good to have variability
because then at least some percent Will
Survive yeah I mean the the you know the
way that I used to describe it was you
know um using uh you know those movies
like The War of the Worlds or or um
Pacific Rim you know where like aliens
come down from outer space and they you
know want to kill humans and so all the
humans band together as a species like
and they all like all the you know
little squabbling from countries and
whatever all go you know goes away and
everyone is just one big you know
well that you know that doesn't happen I
mean because coid is you know the vi a
virus uh
like Co like Co 19 is like a creature
from outer space and that's not what you
see happening what you do see happening
it is true that some people I mean we
could use this as an example of
essentialism also so just to say like
exposure to the virus does not mean that
you will become infected with a
disease so I mean in controlled studies
one of which was actually a Corona virus
not coid but an this was these are
studies from 10 or so years ago you know
only somewhere between 20 and 40% of
people uh were developed respiratory
illness when a virus was placed in their
nose yeah um and so then there's a dose
question all those well not in these
studies actually so in these studies the
dose was consistent across all people um
and everything you know they were
sequestered in hotel rooms and what they
ate was you know um measured out by
scientists and so on and so when you
hold dose I mean the dose issue is a
real issue in the real world but um in
these studies that was controlled um and
only somewhere between TW depending on
the study between 20 and 40% of people
became infected with a disease so
exposure to a virus doesn't mean de
facto that you will um develop an
illness you will be a carrier and you
will spread the virus to other people
but you yourself may not uh you're
immune system may be um in a state that
um you you can make enough antibodies to
um not uh not show symptoms not develop
symptoms um and so um of course what
this means is again is that you know
like if I asked you do you think you
know a virus is the cause of ill of of a
common cold or you know most people if I
ask this question I can tell you because
I I I ask this question so do you think
of virus is the cause of a cold most
people would say yes I think it is and
then I say yeah well only 20 to 40% of
people develop respiratory illness in
exposure to a virus so clearly it is a
necessary cause but it's not a
sufficient cause and there are other
causes again so not simple single causes
for things right multiple
interacting influences so it it is true
that individuals vary in their
susceptibility to illness Upon a
exposure but different cultures have
different sets of norms and practices
that allow that will slow or or speed
the
spread and that's the that's the point
that I was actually trying to make here
that um
that you know when the environment
changes that is there's a a mutation of
a virus that is incredibly
infectious some cultures
will succumb People In some cultures
will succumb faster because of the
particular norms and practices that that
they've developed in their culture
versus other cultures now there could be
some
other you know thing that changes that
where those other other cultures are you
know would do better so very
individualistic cultures like ours may
do much better under other types of of
selection pressures but for Co for
things like Co you know my colleague
Michelle Galant her research shows that
she she looks at like loose cultures and
tight cultures so cultures that have
very very strict uh rules versus
cultures that are much more
individualistic and where personal
freedoms are um more valued and she you
know her research suggests that for
pandemic uh circumstances tight cultures
actually the people survive
better just to linger a little bit
longer we started this part of the
conversation talking about you know did
the humans evolve to think did the human
brain evolve to think implying is there
like a progress to the thing that's
always
improving that's right we never yeah and
so the answer is no but let me sort of
push back but so your intuition is very
strong here not your intuition the way
describe this but is it possible there's
a direction to this Evolution like do
you think of this Evolution as having a
direction like it's like walking along a
certain path towards something we you
know uh what is
it uh is it Elon uh musk said like uh
this the Earth got bombarded with
photons and then all of a sudden like a
Tesla was launched into space or
whatever Rockets started coming like is
there a sense in which even though in
the like within the system the evolution
seems to be this mess of variation we're
kind of trying to find our niches and so
on but do you think they're ultimately
when you zoom out there is a Direction
that's strong that does tend towards um
greater complexity and
intelligence
no so I mean and I and again what I
would say is I'm really I'm really just
echoing people who are much smarter than
I am about this but see you're saying
smarter I thought it doesn't there's no
I thought there's no smarter no I didn't
say there's no smarter I said there's no
Direction okay so I think the thing to
say or or what I understand to be the
case is that um there's variation it's
not unbounded variation and there are
selectors there are there are there are
pressures that we select and so not
anything is possible because we live on
a planet that has certain physical
realities to it right um and but those
physical realities are what
constrain the
possibilities um the physical realities
of our genes and the physical realities
of our corporeal bodies and the physical
realities of um uh you know the of life
on on this planet so what I would say is
that um there's no
Direction um
but uh there is not it's not infinite
possibility because we live on a
particular planet that has particular
statistical regularities in it and some
things will never happen and so though
all of those things are are interacting
with
um uh with our genes and so on and our
you know the physical nature of our
bodies to make some things more possible
and some things less possible look I
mean humans have very complex brains but
birds have complex brains and so do uh
you know um so do uh octopuses have very
complex brains and all three sets of all
three of those brains are are are
somewhat different from one another you
know uh bird Birds some birds have very
complex brains some even have
rudimentary language they have no
cerebral
cortex I mean they admittedly they have
this is um now lesson two right they
have is it lesson two or lesson one let
me think no this is lesson one they have
um
uh they have the same neurons the same
neurons that that in a human become the
cerebral cortex birds have those neurons
they just don't form themselves into a
cerebral cortex but I mean crows for
example are very sophisticated animals
they can do a lot of the things that
humans can do in fact all of the things
that humans do that are very special
that seem very special there's at least
one other animal on the planet that can
do those things too what's special about
the human brain is that we put them all
together so we learn from one another we
don't have to experience everything
ourselves we can watch another animal or
another Human Experience something and
we can learn from that well there are
many other animals who can learn by
copying yeah that we communicate with
each other very very efficiently we have
language but we're not the only animals
who are efficiently efficient
communicators there are lots of other
animals who can efficiently communicate
like bees for example um you know we
cooperate really well with one another
to do Grand things but there are other
animals that cooperate too and so every
Innovation that we have other animals
have too what we have is we have all of
those together interwoven in this very
complex dance in a brain that is not
unique exactly but that is you know it
does have some features that make it use
that make it particularly useful for us
um to do all of these things uh you know
to have all of these things intertwined
so you know our brains are actually the
last time we talked I I I made a mistake
because I said um in my enthusiasm I
said you know our brains are are not
larger are relative to our bodies our
brains are not larger um than um than
other primates and that's actually not
true actually our our brains relative to
our body size is somewhat larger so yeah
an ape who's not a human that's not a
human um their brains are larger than
their body sizes than say relative to
like a smaller monkey and a human's
brain is larger relative to its body
size than a than a gorilla that's a good
approximation of your um of whatever of
of the bunch of stuff you that you can
shove in there well what I was going to
say is but our cerebral cortex is not
larger than what you would expect for a
brain of our of of of of its size so so
relative to say an ape like a like a
gorilla or a chimp or even a mammal like
a dolphin or an elephant um you know our
brains our our cerebral cortex is as
large as you would expect it to be for a
brain of our size so there's nothing
special about our cerebral cortex and
this is something I explain in the book
where I I say okay you know like by
analogy um if you walk into somebody's
house and you see that they have a huge
kitchen you know you might think well
maybe you know maybe this is a place I
really definitely want to eat dinner at
because you know these people must be
Gourmet Cooks but you don't know
anything about what the size of their
kitchen means unless you consider it in
relation to the size of the rest of the
house
if it's a if it's a big kitchen in a
really big
house it's not telling you anything
special right if it's a big kitchen in a
small house then that might be a place
that you want to eat for you want to
stay for dinner because it's more likely
that that kitchen is large for a special
reason and so the cerebral cortex of a
human brain isn't in and of itself
special because of its size
however there are some
genetic changes that have happened in
the human
brain as it's
grown with to whatever size is you know
typical for for the whole brain size
right there are some changes that do
give the human brain slightly more of
some capacities they're not special but
there's just they just you know we can
do some
things much better than other animals
and you know correspondingly other
animals can do some things much better
than we can we can't grow back limbs we
can't lift 50 times our own body weight
well I mean maybe you can but I can't
live 50 times body ants with that regard
are very impressive and then you're
saying with the with the frontal cortex
like that's the size is not always the
right uh measure of uh capability I
guess so size isn't everything size
isn't everything that's a quot you know
people like it when I disagree so let me
disagree with with you uh on something
or just like play Devil's adoc a little
bit so you've uh painted a really nice
picture that Evolution doesn't have a
Direction but is it possible if we just
ran Earth over and over again like this
video game that the final result will be
the same so in the sense that we're
eventually there'll be an AGI type HAL
9000 type system that just like flies
and colonizes nearby by uh earthlike
planets and it's always will be the same
and and the different organisms and the
different evolution of the brain uh like
it it doesn't feel like it has like a
Direction but given the constraints of
Earth and whatever this imperative
whatever the hell is running this
universe like it seems like it's running
towards something is it possible that it
will always be the same thereby it will
be a Direction
yeah I think you know as you know better
than anyone else that that answer to
that question is of course there's some
probability that that could happen right
it's not a yes or no answer it's what's
the probability that that would happen
and there's a a whole um distribution of
possibilities so maybe we end up what's
the probability we end up with exactly
the same uh complement of creatures um
including us what's the likelihood that
we end up with you
know creatures that are similar to
humans that are but you know similar in
in certain ways let's say but not
exactly humans or you know all the way
to a completely different um
distribution of of creatures what's your
intuition like if you were to bet money
what does that distribution look like if
we ran Earth over and over and over
again I would say given the um you're
now asking me questions that this is not
science this this is not science so but
I would say okay well what's the
probability that um it's going to be a
carbon life form Pro probably high yeah
but that's because I don't know anything
about Alternatives yeah you know I don't
I'm not I'm not really well versed in
that um what's the probability that you
know so what's the probability that the
animals will begin in the ocean and
crawl out onto Land versus the other way
versus I would say probably
high I don't know but you know but do I
think what's the likelihood that we
would end up with exactly the same or
very similar I think it's low actually I
I wouldn't say it's low but I I would
say it's not it's not 100% and I'm not
even sure it's
50% you know I would say I I don't think
that we're here by accident because I
think like I said there are constraints
like there are some physical constraints
about Earth now of course if you were a
cosmologist you could say well the the
fact that the Earth is if you were to do
the big bang over again and keep doing
it over and over and over again would
you still get the same solar systems
would you still get the same planets
would you know would you still get the
same galaxies the same solar systems the
same planets you know I don't know but
my guess is probably not um because
there are random things that happen that
can again send things in one direct you
know make one set of trajectories
possible and another set impossible so
um but I I guess my my my if I were
going to bet bet something money or
something valuable I would probably say
it's not zero and it's not 100% and it's
probably not even 50% so there's some
probability but it will be similar that
would be similar but I don't think I
just think there are too many degrees of
freedom there are too many degrees of
freedom I I mean one of the real
tensions in writing this book is to on
the one hand there's some truth in
saying
that humans are
not special we are just you know we're
not special in the animal kingdom all
animals are um well adapted if they're
survived they're well adapted to their
Niche it does happen to be the case that
our Niche is large for any individual
human your Niche is whatever it is but
for the species right we live almost
everywhere not everywhere but almost
everywhere on the
planet but not in the
ocean and actually other animals like
bacteria for example H have us beat
miles you know hands down right so we're
by any by any definition we're not
special we're just you know adapted to
our environment but bacteria don't have
a podcast they're not exactly exactly
and so that's the tension right so on
the one hand you know we're not special
animals we're just you know you know
particularly well adapted to our Niche
on the other hand our Niche is huge and
we you know we don't just adapt to our
environment we add to our environment we
make stuff up give it a name and then it
becomes real and so no other animal can
do that and so I think the the thing the
way to think about it from my
perspective or the way I made sense of
it is to say you can look at any
individual Single Character istic that a
human
has that seems remarkable and you can
find that in some other animal mhm what
you can't find in any other animal is
all of those characteristics
together in a brain that is souped up in
particular ways like ours is and if you
combine these things multiple
interacting causes right not one not one
Essence like your cortex your big
neocortex but um which isn't really that
big I mean it's just big for it this for
your big brain uh for the size of your
big brain it's that it's the size it
should be um if you add all those things
together and they interact with each
other that produces some pretty
remarkable results M and if you're aware
of
that then you can start asking different
kinds of questions about what means to
be human and what kind of a human you
want to be and what kind of a a world do
you want to curate for the next
generation of humans so you I think
that's the goal anyways right is just to
just to have a glimpse
of instead of thinking about things in
in a simple linear way just have a
glimpse of the some of the things that
matter that seemed that evidence
suggests matters um to um the kind of
brain in the kind of bodies that we have
um once you know that you can you can
work with it a little bit you're right
words have power over your biology right
now I can text the words I love you from
the United States to my close friend in
Belgium and even though she cannot hear
my voice or see my face I will change
her heart rate her breathing and her
metabolism by the way beautifully
written or someone could text something
and be uous to you like is your door
locked and odds are that it would affect
your nervous system in an unpleasant way
so I mean there's a lot of stuff to talk
about here but just one way to ask is
um why do you think words have so much
power over our
brain well I think we just have to look
at the anatomy of the brain to answer
that question
so um if you look at the part parts of
the brain the whole the the the systems
that are important for processing
language you can see that some of these
regions are also important for
controlling your major organ systems and
your like your autonomic nervous system
that controls your cardiovascular system
your respiratory system and so on that
you know these regions control your uh
endocrine system your immune system and
so on so and you can actually see this
in other animals too so in birds for
example the neurons that are responsible
for bird song also control the systems
of a bird's body and the reason why I
bring that up is that the there's some
scientists think that the anatomy um of
a of a bird's brain that control bird
song or homologous or structurally have
a similar origin to the human system for
a language so the parts of the brain
that are important for processing
language are not unique in U and
specialized for language they do many
things and one of the things they do is
um control your major organ systems do
you think we can fall in love have
arguments about this all the time uh do
you think we can fall in love based on
words alone well I think people have
been doing it for
centuries I mean they it used to be the
case of people wrote letters to each
other yeah um with you know and then uh
that was how they communicated and I
guess that's how you and Dan got exact
exactly exactly exactly yeah exactly so
is the answer a clear yes there because
I get a lot of push back from people
often that you need you need the touch
and the
smell and uh you know the bodily stuff I
think the touch and the smell and the
bodily stuff helps okay but I don't
think it's necessary do you think you
can have a lifelong monogamous
relationship ship with an AI system that
only communicates with you on text
romantic
relationship well I suppose that's an
empirical question that hasn't been
answered yet but so I I guess what I
would say is
um I don't think I
could could any human could the average
human could you know so so um if I if I
um I I even I want to even I want to
even modify that and say I'm thinking
now of um Tom Hanks um and um the movie
um cway yeah you know with Wilson yeah I
think if if that was if you had to make
that work if you had to make that work
well the volleyball yeah if you had to
make it work could you you could you
prediction and simulation right so if
you had to make it work could you make
it work using simulation and you know
your past experience could you make it
work could you make it work you as a
human could you could you like could you
have a could you have a relationship
literally with an inanimate object and
have it sustain you in the way uh that
another human could yeah um your life
would probably be shorter because you
wouldn't actually derive the body
budgeting benefits from right so um
we've talked about uh you know how um
your brain its most important job is to
control your body and you can describe
that as your brain running a budget for
your body yes and um there are
metaphorical you know deposits and
withdrawals into your body budget and
you also make deposits and withdrawals
in other people's body budgets
figuratively speaking so you wouldn't
have that particular benefit um uh so
your life would probably be shorter but
I think it would be harder for some
people than for other people yeah I T my
intuition is that you can have a deep
fulfilling relationship with a
volleyball I think I think a lot of
the the environments that set up I think
that's a really good example like the
constraints of your particular
environment Define the like I I believe
like scarcity is a good Catalyst for
deep meaningful connection with other
humans and with in animal objects so the
less you have the more fulfilling those
relationships are and I would say a
relationship with a volleyball the sex
is not great but uh everything else I
feel like it could be a very fulfilling
relationship which I don't know from an
engineering perspective what to do with
that just like you said it is an
empirical question but but there are
places to learn about that right so for
example think about children and their
blankets right so there there's
something tactile and there's something
old
factory and it's very
comforting I mean even for even for
non-human little animals right like
puppies and so I don't know about cats
but um but cats are cold-hearted they're
there there's no there's nothing going
on there I don't know there are some
cats that are very doglike I mean really
so some cats identify as dogs yes I
think that's true yeah they're they're
um species
fluid
so you also right when it comes to human
Minds variation is the norm and what we
call quote human nature is really many
human
Natures again many questions I can ask
here but maybe an interesting one to ask
is um I often hear you know we often
hear this idea of be
yourself is this possible to be yourself
is it a good idea to strive to be self
is it does that even have any meaning
it's a very Western question first of
all because which self are you talking
about you don't have one self there is
no self that's an essence of you you
have multiple selves actually there is
research on this um you know to quote um
the great social psychologist Hazel
Marcus you're never you cannot be a self
by
yourself you you know you and so
different contexts
pull for or or Draw on different
features of your of who you are or what
you're what you believe what you feel
what your actions are um a different
context you know will put certain things
make more some features be more in the
foreground and and some in the
background it's it takes us back right
to our discussion earlier about um
Stalin and Hiller and so on the thing
that I would caution in addition to the
fact that there is no single self you
know that you have multiple selves who
you can
be um and you can certainly choose the
situations that you put yourself in to
some extent not everybody has complete
choice but everybody has a little bit of
choice and I think I said this to you
before that one of the pieces of advice
that we gave Sophia you know when she
went our daughter when she was going off
to college
was um try to spend time around people
choose relationships that allow you to
be your best
self we should have said your best
selves but um this you know the pool of
selves given the environment uh yeah but
I I the one thing I do want to say is
that um the risk of saying be yourself
just be yourself is that um that can be
used as an excuse well this is just the
way that I am I'm just like this and um
that I I think should be tremendously
resist isted so that's one that's the
that's for the excuse side but you know
I'm really self-critical often I'm full
of doubt and people often tell me just
don't worry about it just be yourself
man and it's the thing is uh it almost
it it's not from an engineering
perspective does not seem like
actionable advice because uh I guess
constantly worrying about
who what are the right
words to say to express how I'm feeling
is I guess my
self there's there's a kind of line I
guess that this might be a western idea
but something that feels genuine and
something that feels not
genuine and I'm not sure what that means
cuz I would like to be fully genuine and
fully open but I'm also aware like this
morning I was like very like silly and
giddy
like this is just being funny and
relaxed and light like there's nothing
that could um bother me in the world I
was just smiling and happy and I
remember last night was just feeling
like very grumpy like uh like stuff was
bothering me like certain things were
bothering me and like th what are those
are those are different selves like what
who am I in that and what do I do
because if you know if we take Twitter's
an example if I actually send a tweet
last night and a tweet this morning it's
going to be very two different
people a tweeting that and I don't know
what to do with that because one does
seem to be more me than the other but
that's maybe because there's a Nar the
story that I'm trying this something I'm
striving to be like the ultimate human
that I might become I have maybe a
vision of that and I'm trying to become
that but it it does seem like there's a
lot of different Minds in there
and they're all like like having a
discussion and a battle for who's going
to win I suppose you could think of it
that way but there's another way to
think of it I think and that is that um
maybe the more Buddhist way to think of
it right or more contemplative way to
think about it which is not that you
have multiple personalities inside your
head but you have your brain has this
um amazing
capacity it it has a a population of
experiences that you've had that it can
regenerate reconstitute and it can even
take bits and pieces of those
experiences and combine them into
something new um and it's often doing
this to predict what's going to happen
next and to plan your actions but it's
also happening this also happens just um
that's what mind wandering is or just
internal thought and and so on that's
it's the same mechanism really and so a
lot of times we hear the saying you know
just think if you think differently
you'll feel
differently but your brain is having a
conversation continually with your body
and your body your brain's you know
trying to control your body well trying
your brain is controlling your body your
body is sending information back to the
brain and impart the information that
your body sends back to your brain
just like the information coming from
the
world initiates the next volley of
predictions or simulations so in some
ways you could also
say the way that you feel your I think
we talked before about affective feeling
or mood coming from the sensations of
body budgeting you know
um
influences what you
think
and um as much as so feelings influence
thought as much as thought influence
feeling and maybe more but just the the
whole thing doesn't seem stable well
it's a dynamic system Mr engineer yeah
right it's a dynamic it's a dynamical
system right nonlinear dynamical system
in a re and I think that's I'm actually
writing a paper with a bunch of
Engineers about the about this actually
but um I I mean other people have talked
about the brain as a dynamical system
before but you know the real tricky bit
is trying to figure out how do you get
mental features out of that system like
it's one thing to figure out how you get
a motor movement out of that system it's
another thing to figure out how you get
a mental feature like a feeling of being
loved or a feeling of being worthwhile
or a feeling of you know just basically
feeling like how do you get a
feeling a mental Fe a mental features
out of out of that system um so I would
what I would say is that you aren't the
the Buddhist thing to say is that you're
not one person and you're not many
people you are um you are the sum of
your experiences and who you are in any
given
moment meaning what your actions will be
is influenced by the state of your body
and the state of the world that you've
put yourself in and you can change
either of those things one is a little
easier to change than the other right
you can change your environment by
literally getting up and moving or you
can change by paying attention to some
things differently and letting other
some features um come to the FL and
other features be backgrounded like I'm
looking around your place oh no and I
see this is not something you should do
no I'm not but I'm going to say one
thing yeah no green
plants no green plants cuz green plants
mean a home and I want this to be
temporary fair fair but what's what's
what goes to your mind when you see no
green plants no I'm just making the
point that but
um what if you like again you know not
everybody has control over their
environment some people don't have
control over the noise or the
temperature or you know any of those
things but everybody is a little bit of
control and you can place things in your
environment
photographs yes
plants anything that's meaningful to you
and use it as a shift of environment
when you need it yes you can also do
things to change the conditions of your
body when you exercise every day you're
making an investment in your body
actually you're making an investment in
your brain too it makes you even though
it's unpleasant and you know there's a
cost to it if you replenish if you in
invest and you make up that um you make
a deposit and you make up that um what
you've spent you're basically making an
investment in making it easier for your
brain to control your body in the future
so you can make sure you're hydrated
drink water you don't have to BU drink
bottled water you can drink water from
the tap this is in most places maybe not
you know maybe not everywhere but uh but
most places in the developed World um
you can try to get enough sleep not
everybody has that luxury but everybody
can do something to make their you know
body budgets a little more solvent and
that will also
make it more likely that certain
thoughts will emerge from that
prediction uh machine that's the control
you do have is uh yeah being able to
control the environment that's really
well put uh on the I don't think we've
talked about this so let's go to the
biggest unanswerable questions of
Consciousness what is you just rolled
your eyes I did that was my yeah so what
is consciousness from a neuroscience
perspective I know you I
mean uh I made notes you know because
you gave me some questions in advance
and I made notes for every single well
except that one yeah well that one I had
what the and then I took it out um
so is there something interesting
because you're so pragmatic is there
something interesting to say about
intuition building about Consciousness
or is this something that we're just
totally clueless about that this is uh
let's focus on the the body the brain
listens to the body the body speaks to
the brain and like let's just figure
this piece out and then Consciousness
will probably emerge somehow after that
no I think you know well first of all
it'll just say up front um I am not a
philosopher of Consciousness and I'm not
a neuroscientist who focuses on
Consciousness I mean in some sense I do
study it because I study affect in mood
and that's that is the
um uh you know to use the phrase that is
the the hard question um of
Consciousness how is it that your brain
is modeling your body your brain is
modeling the sensory conditions of your
body it's um and it's being updated that
model is being updated by the sense data
that's coming from your body and it's
happening continuously your whole life
and you don't feel those Sensations
directly you what you feel is a general
sense of pleasantness or pleasantness
Comfort discomfort feeling worked up
feeling calm so we call that affect you
know most people call it mood so how is
it that your brain gives you this very
low dimensional feeling of mood or
affect when it's presumably receiving a
very high-dimensional array of sense
data and the model that the brain is
running of the body has to be high
dimensional because there's a lot going
on in there right you're not aware but
as you're sitting there there quietly as
your listeners or our our as our viewers
are sitting um they might be working out
running now or as many of them right to
me they're laying in bed smoking weed
with their eyes closed and that's fair
so maybe we should say that bit again
then so if so some people may be working
out some people may be uh relaxing but
you know even if you're sitting very
still while you're watching this or
listening to this there's a whole drama
going on inside your body that you're
largely unaware of yet your brain makes
you
aware or gives you a status report in a
sense by virtue of these mental features
of feeling Pleasant feeling unpleasant
feeling comfortable feeling
uncomfortable feeling energetic feeling
tired and so on and so how the hell is
it doing that that is the basic
question of of Consciousness and like
the status reports seem to be in the the
way we experience them seem to be quite
simple
like it doesn't feel like there's a lot
of data yeah know that there isn't so
when you
feel when you feel um discomfort when
you're feeling basically like you
feel like what does that tell you
like what are you supposed to do next
what caused it I mean the thing is not
one thing caused it right it's multiple
factors probably influencing your
physical state your body very high
dimensional yeah very high dimensional
um
and that and the there are different
temporal scales of influence right so um
it you know the state of your gut is not
just influenced by what you ate five
minutes ago it's also what you ate a day
ago and two days ago and and so on so um
so I
think the you know when I'm I'm not
trying to weasle out of the question I
just think it's a it's the hardest
question actually do you think we'll
ever understand
it
um as
scientists I think that we
will understand it as well as we
understand other things like um the
birth of the universe or the you know
the nature of the of the Universe I
guess I I would say so I do I think we
get to that level of an explanation I do
actually but I think that we have to
start asking somewhat different
questions and approaching the science
somewhat differently than we have in the
past I mean it's also possible that
Consciousness is much more difficult to
understand than the nature of the
universe it is but I I wasn't
necessarily saying that it was a
question that was of equivalent
complexity I was saying that I do think
that we could get
to
some I I am optimistic that I I would
not I would be very willing to invest my
the time my time on this Earth as a
scientist in trying to answer that
question if I could do it the way that I
want to do it um not the way that it's
currently being done so like
rigorously I don't want to say unrig
usly I just want to say that there are
certain set of assumptions that you know
scientists have what I would call
ontological commitments they're
commitments about the way the world is
or the way that nature is
and they these commitments lead
scientists sometimes blindly without
they don't scientists sometimes
sometimes scientists are aware of these
commitments but sometimes they're not
and these commitments onth less
influence how scientists ask questions
how what they measure how they measure
and I I just have very different views
than a lot of my colleagues about the
ways to approach this not everybody but
um but the way that I would approach it
would be different and it would cost
more and it would take longer it doesn't
fit very well into the current incentive
structure of Science and so do I think
that doing science the way science is
currently done with the budget that it
currently has and the incentive
structure that it currently has will we
have an answer no I think absolutely not
good luck is what I would
say people love book
recommendations let me ask what three
books oh you can't just like you can't
just give me three I mean like really
three what uh 7 and 1/2 books you can
recommend so you're also the author of 7
and A2 lessons about the brain you're uh
author of how emotions are made okay so
definitely those are the top two
recommendations of all two greatest
books of all time other than that are
there books that uh technical fiction
philosophical that you've enjoyed or you
might recommend to others
Yes actually you know every PhD student
when they um when they graduate uate
with their PHD I give them a set like a
little Library like a set of books you
know some of which they've already read
some of which I want them to read or um
but um I think non-fiction books I would
read the things I would recommend are
the triple helix um by uh Richard lanon
it's a little book published um in 2000
which is um I think a really good
introduction to complexity
and
um population thinking as opposed to
essentialism so this idea essentialism
is this idea that you know there's an
Essence to each person whether it's a
soul or your genes or what have you as
opposed to this idea that you we have
the kind of nature that requires a
nurture we are a we are you are the
product of a complex dance between um an
environment between a set of genes and
an environment ment um that turn those
genes on and off to produce your brain
and your body and really who you are at
any given moment it's good title for
that triple helix so playing on the
double helix where it's just the biology
it's bigger than the biology exactly um
It's a Wonderful book I've read it
probably six or seven times throughout
the year he has another book too which
is it's more I think scientists would
find it I don't know I've loved it it's
called biology as
ideology and it is all about I wouldn't
call it one of the best books of all
time but I I love the book because it
really does point
out you know that SC science as it's
currently practiced I mean the book was
written in 1991 but it actually I think
still holds that scientist science as
currently practice has a set of
ontological commitments which are
somewhat
problematic so the assumptions are
limiting yeah in ways that you it's you
know it's like you're a fish in water
and you don't like okay so yeah so here
Foster walls stuff but but you know but
here's a here's a really cool thing I
just learned recently is it okay just to
to to go off on this tangent for a
minute yeah yeah that's called tangent
great okay um I was just going to say
that I just learned recently that we
don't have water receptors on our skin
so how do you know when you're sweating
how do you know when when a raindrop
when you know when it's going to rain
and you know like a raindrop hits your
skin and you can feel that little drop
of wetness how is it that you feel that
drop of wetness when we don't have water
receptors in our skin and I was when I
my mind is blown already yeah that was
my reaction too right I was like of
course we don't because we evolved in
the water yeah like why would we need
you know it just it was just this like
you know you have these moments where
you're like of course there's like a
yeah so you'll never see rain the same
way again so the answer is it's a it's a
it's a combination of um temperature and
touch yeah but it's a complex
sense that's only computed in your brain
there's no receptor for it anyways yeah
that's why like snow versus cold rain
versus warm rain all feel different
because you're you're trying to infer
stuff from the temperature and the size
of the droplet it's fascinating yeah
your brain is a prediction machine it's
using lots and lots of information
combining it you know anyway so but um
so biology's ideology is I wouldn't say
it's one of the greatest books of all
time but it is a it is a really useful
book there's a book by um if you're
interested in Psychology or the mind at
all there's a wonderful book A little
it's a it's a fairly fairly small book
called naming the Mind by Kurt danziger
who's a historian of
psychology everybody in my lab reads
both of these books so what was the book
it's about the origin of the where do
where did we get the theory of mind that
we had have that uh the human mind is
populated by thoughts and feelings
and um perceptions and where did those
categories come from because they don't
exist in all
cultures Al this isn't that's a cultural
construct the idea that you have
thoughts and feelings and they're very
distinct is definitely a cultural
construct it's another mind-blowing
thing just like the rain um so Kurt
danzinger is a the
opening chapter in that book
is absolutely mind-blowing I love it I
love it I just think it's fantastic um
and I would say the there are many many
popular science books that I could
recommend that I think are extremely
well written in their own way you know
before I maybe I said this to you but
before I undertook writing how motions
are made um I read I don't know
somewhere on the order of 50 or
60 uh popular science books to try to
figure out
how to write a popular science book
because while there are many books about
writing Stephen King has a great book
writing on writing and um you know where
he gives tips um interlaced with his own
personal history um that was where I
learned you write for a specific person
you have a specific person in mind and
that's for me that person is my is down
that's fasc I mean that's a whole
another conversation to have like which
popular science books like what you
learn from that uh search because there
there's uh I have some for me some
popular science books like I just roll
my eyes like this is
too um it's like same with TED talks
like some of them go too much into the
flowery and don't I don't I would say
don't give enough respect to the
intelligence of the reader uh and but
that's this is my own bias very specific
I I completely agree with you and in
fact I have a colleague his name is um
van Yang who you know he um produced um
a cinematic lecture of how emotions are
made that we wrote together with Joseph
fredman no relation yes um well we're
all related well I mean you and I are
probably you know have some yeah yeah um
but um I remember it's the memories are
in there somewhere yeah it's from many
many many generations ago um well half
my family is Russian so from the good
half the good half
right um
but you know he one his goal actually is
to
produce
[Music]
um you know videos and lectures that are
beautiful and educational and that
don't um don't dumb the material down um
and he's really remarkable at it
actually I mean just uh but again you
know that's that that requires a bit of
a paradigm shift we could have a whole
conversation about the split between
entertainment and education in this
country and why it is the way it is but
that's a that's another conversation to
be continued but I would say the if I
were to pick one book that I think is a
really good example of good science
writing it would be the beak of the
finch which is one of it won a a pullit
Sur prise a number of years ago and I'm
not I'm the I'm not remembering the
author's name I'm blanking um but the
I'm guessing is it uh is it focusing on
birds and the evolution of birds
actually there's also the evolution of
beauty which is yeah which is also a
great book but the no the beak of the
finch is um it's
a it it has two story lines that are
interwoven one is about
Darwin and Darwin's um Explorations in
the Galapagos Island and then modern-day
researchers from Princeton who have a
research program in the Galapagos
looking at Darwin's finches mhm and um
it's just a really first of all there's
topnotch science in there and really
science like you know evolutionary
biology there a lot of people don't know
and it's told really really well it
sounds like there also there's a
narrative in there there it's like
storytelling too yeah I think all good
popular science books are are
storytelling you know but storytelling
grounded constrained by you know the
evidence and then I just want to say
that there are for fiction I'm a really
big fan of love stories just to return
us to the um the topic that we began
with and so my some of my favorite uh
love stories are major pedigree Last
Stand by Helen
Simonson it's a it's a love story about
people who you wouldn't expect to fall
in love and all the people around them
who have to overcome their
prejudices and and um I love this book
what do you like like what makes a good
love
story there isn't one thing you know
there are many different things that
make a good love story but I think in
this case um you can
feel you you can feel the journey you
can feel the journey that these
characters are on and all the people
around them are on this journey too
basically to come to grips with this
really Unexpected Love really profound
love that develops between these two
characters who are very unlikely to have
fallen in love but they do
and it's just it's very gentle another
book like that is um the um the storyed
life of AJ
FY um which is also a love story but in
this case it's a love story between um a
little girl and her adopted dad and the
dad is this like real
kogy you know um guy uh but of course
there's a story there and um it's just a
beautiful love story and but it also
it's like everybody in this community
falls in love with him because he falls
in love with her and he you know she
just gets left at his store his
bookstore he has this failing bookstore
and he
he discovers that you know he feels like
inexplicably this need to take care of
this little baby and um this whole life
emerges out of that one decision which
is really beautiful actually um very
poignant do you think the greatest
stories have a happy ending or a
heartbreak at the end that's such a
Russian question it's like it's like
Russian tragedies you know so I would
say the answer to that for me there has
to be heartbreak yeah I really don't
like heartbreak I don't like heartbreak
I want there to be a happy ending or at
least a hopeful ending but the but you
know like Dr shivago like or The English
Patient oh my goodness like why oh it's
just yeah
no well I don't think there's a better
way to end it on a happy note like this
uh Lisa like I said I'm a huge fan of
yours thank you for wasting yet more
time with me talking again U people
should definitely get your book and uh
maybe one day I can't wait to talk to
your husband as well well right back at
you
[Laughter]
Lexi thanks for listening to this
conversation with Lisa Feldman Barrett
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now let me leave you some words from
sunzoo and the Art of War there are not
more than five musical notes yet the
combination of these five give rise to
more Melodies that can ever be heard
there are not more than five primary
colors yet in combination they produce
more Hues than can ever be seen there
are not more than five Cardinal tap
tastes and yet combinations of them
yield more flavors than can ever be
tasted thank you for listening and hope
to see you next
time