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Language: en
worrying about the world to power do you
think human what do you think drives
humans is it is it Oh an unholy mix of
things IIIi don't think there's one pure
simple and elegant objective function
driving humans but by any means what do
you think if we look at I know it's hard
to look at humans in an aggregate but do
you think overall humans are good or do
we have both good and evil within us
that depending on the circumstances
depending on the whatever Kin Kin Kin up
perfectly to the top good and evil are
very ambiguous complicated and in some
ways silly concepts but if we we could
dig into your question from a couple
directions so I think if you look in
evolution humanity is shaped both by
individual selection and what biologists
will call group selection like tribe
level selection right so individual
selection has driven us in this selfish
DNA sort of way so that each of us does
to a certain approximation what will
help us propagate our our DNA to to
future generations I mean that that
that's why I've got to have four kids so
far in the probably that's not the last
one yeah on the other hand I like the
ambition tribal like group selection
means humans in a way will do what what
will advocate for the persistence of the
DNA of their whole their whole tribe or
their their social group and in biology
you have both of these right like it and
you can see say an ant colony or bee
hive there's a lot of group selection in
the evolution of those social animals on
the other hand say a big cat or some
very solitary animal it's a lot more
biased toward an individual selection
humans are an interesting balance and I
think this reflects itself in what we
would view as selfishness versus
altruism to some extent so we just have
both of those objective functions
contributing to the the makeup of our
brains
then as Nietzsche analyzed in his own
way and others have analyzed in
different ways I mean we abstract this
as well we have both good good and and
and evil within us right because a lot
of what we view as evil is really just
selfishness a lot of what we view as
good is altruism which means doing doing
what's good for that for the tribe and
on that level we have both of those just
big baked into us and that's that's how
it is of course there are Psychopaths
and sociopaths and people who you know
get gratified by the suffering of others
and that that's that's that's a
different thing yeah those are
exceptions but yeah but I think at core
we're not purely selfish we're not
purely altruistic we are a mix and
that's that's the nature of it and we
also have a complex constellation of
values that are just very specific to
our evolute evolutionary history luckily
you know we we love waterways and
mountains and the the ideal place to put
the houses in the mountain overlooking
the water right and you know we care a
lot about our our kids and we care a
little less about our cousins and even
less about our fifth cousins I mean
there are many particular are these two
human values which whether they're good
or evil depends on here on your
perspective really say I I spent a lot
of time in Ethiopia in Addis Ababa where
we have one of our a eye development
offices for my singularity net project
and when I walked through the streets a
novice you know there's so there's
people lying by the side of the road
like just living there by the side road
dying probably of curable diseases
without in the food and medicine and
when I walked by them you know I feel
terrible I give them money when I come
back home to the developed world they're
not on my mind that much I do donate
some but I mean I also spent some
unlimited money I have enjoying myself
in frivolous ways rather than donating
it to those people who are right
now like starving dying and suffering on
the roadside so does that make me evil I
mean it makes me somewhat selfish and
somewhat altruistic can we each we each
balance that in our own way
right so that's that whether that will
be true of all possible Agis
is it is it is a subtler question so you
yeah that's how humans are so you have a
sense you kind of mentioned that there's
a selfish I'm not gonna bring up the
whole iron Rand idea of selfishness
being the core virtue that's an a whole
interesting kind of tangent that I think
will just distract ourselves well I have
to make one amusing comment shirt or
moment that has amused me anyway so the
the yeah I I have extraordinary negative
respect for 400 negative but when I work
with a company called Jeunesse ins which
was evolving flies to have extraordinary
long lives in in in Southern California
so we asked lies that were evolved by
artificial selection to have five times
the lifespan of normal fruit flies but
the population of super long live flies
was physically sinning in a spare room
at an EIN rand
elementary school in southern california
so that was just like well if I saw this
in the movie I wouldn't believe it well
yeah the universe has a sense of humor
in that kind of way that fits in the
humor fits in somehow into this whole
absurd existence but you mentioned the
balance between selfishness and altruism
is kind of being innate do you think
it's possible that's kind of an emergent
from a phenomena that those
peculiarities of our value system how
much of it is innate how much of it is
something we collectively kind of like a
dusty SP novel bring to life together as
a civilization I mean the the answer to
nature versus nurture is usually both
and of course its nature versus nurture
versus self-organization as you
mentioned so clearly there are
evolutionary roots to individual and
groups
action leading to a mix of selfishness
and altruism on the other hand different
cultures manifest that in different ways
well we all have basically the same
biology and if you look if you look at
sort of pre civilized cultures you have
tribes like the yanomamö in Venezuela
which which they're their culture is
focused on killing up killing other
tribes and you have other Stone Age
tribes that are mostly peaceable and
have big taboos against violence so you
you can certainly have a big difference
in how culture manifests these innate
biological characteristics but still you
know there's probably limits because
they're given by our our biology I used
to argue this with my great grandparents
who were Marxists actually because they
they believed in the withering away of
the state like that they believed that
you know as you move from capitalism to
socialism to communism people would just
become more social minded so that a
state would be unnecessary and people
would just give you get everyone would
give everyone else what what they needed
no setting aside that that's not what
the various Marxist experiments on the
planet seemed to be heading toward in
practice just as a theoretical point I
was very dubious that human nature could
go there I get at that time with my
great-grandparents or I was just like
you know I'm a cynical teenager I think
humans are humans are just jerks the
state is not gonna wither away if you
don't have some structure keeping people
from screwing each other over they're
gonna do it so now I actually don't
quite see things that way I mean I think
the my feeling now subjectively is the
culture aspect is more significant than
I thought it was when I was a teenager
and I think you could have a human
society that was dialed dramatically
further toward you know self-awareness
other awareness compassion and sharing
than our current society and of course
greater material abundance helps but to
some extent material abundance
is a subjective perception also because
many Stone Age cultures perceive
themselves as living in great material
abundance that they had all the food and
water than while they lived in a
beautiful place their sex lives that
their children I mean the they they had
abundance without any factories right so
I I think humanity probably would be
capable of fundamentally more positive
and joy-filled mode of social existence
than than what we have now clearly Marx
didn't quite have the right idea about
about how how to get there I mean he
missed he missed a number of of key
aspects of human society and and its
evolution and if we look at where we are
in society now how to get there is is a
quite a quite different question because
there are very powerful forces pushing
people and in different directions than
the positive joyous compassionate in
existence right
you