Kind: captions
Language: en
do you see a connection between World
War two and the crisis we're living
through right now sure the need for
collective action reminding ourselves of
the fact that all of these abstractions
like everyone should just do exactly
what he or she wants to do for himself
and leave everyone else alone none of
these abstractions work in a global
crisis and this is just a reminder that
we didn't somehow put all that behind us
when I hear stories about my grandfather
who was in the army and so the Soviet
Union where most people die when you're
in the army there's a brotherhood that
happens there's a love that happens do
you think that's something we're going
to see here
or none there I mean what the Soviet
Union went through I mean the enormity
of the war on the Russian doorstep this
is different what we're going through
now is not we can't talk about
Stalingrad and kovat in the same breath
yet we're not ready and the the sort of
you know that just the sense of like the
Great Patriotic War and the way in which
I was very moved by the Soviet custom of
newlyweds going and visiting war
memorials on their wedding day
it's like the happiest day of your life
you have to say thank you to the people
who made it possible we're not there
we're just restarting history we you
know I've called this on the Rogen
program I called it the great nap
yeah 75 years with very little by
historical standards and in in terms of
really profound disruption and so when
you called the great nap meaning lack of
deep global tragedy
well lack of realized global tragedy so
I think the development for example of
the hydrogen bomb you know was something
that happened during the great nap
and that doesn't mean that people who
live during that time didn't feel fear
didn't know anxiety but it was to say
that most of the violent potential of
human species was not realized it was in
the form of potential energy and this is
the thing that I've sort of taken issue
with with the
corruption of Steven Pinker's optimism
is that if you look at they realized
kinetic variables things have been
getting much better for a long time
which is the great nap but it's not as
if our fragility has not grown our
dependence on electronic systems our
vulnerability to disruption and so all
sorts of things have gotten much better
what other things have gotten much worse
in the destructive potential of
skyrocketed its tragedy the only way we
wake up from the big nap well no you
could also have you know jubilation
about positive things but it's harder to
get people's attention can you give an
example of a big global positive thing
well I could happen I think that when
for example just historically speaking
HIV went from being a death sentence to
something that people could live with
for a very long period of time it would
be great if that had happened on a
Wednesday right like all at once like
you knew that things had changed and so
the bleed in somewhat kills the sort of
the Wednesday effect where it all
happens on a particular day at a
particular moment I think if you look at
the stock market here you know there's a
very clear moment where you can see that
the market absorbs the idea of the
coronavirus I think that with respect to
positives the moon landing was the best
example of a positive that happened at a
particular time or recapitulating the
Soviet American link-up in terms of
Skylab and Soyuz right like that was a
huge moment when you actually had these
two nations connecting in orbit and so
yeah there are great moments where
something beautiful and wonderful and
amazing happens you know but it's just
they're fewer that's why that's why as
much as I can't imagine proposing to
somebody at a sporting event when you
have like 30,000 people waiting and you
know she says yes it's pretty exciting
so I think that we shouldn't we
shouldn't discount that so how bad do
you think it's going to get
in terms of the global suffering that
we're going to experience with this with
this crisis I can't figure this one out
I'm just not smart enough something is
goin weirdly wrong and they're almost
like two separate storylines we in one
storyline we aren't taking things nearly
seriously enough we see people using
food packaging lids as masks who are
doctors or nurses we hear horrible
stories about people dying needlessly
due to triage and that's a very
terrifying story on the other hand
there's this other story which says
there are tons of ventilators someplace
we've got lots of masks but they haven't
been released
we've got hospital ships where none of
the beds are being used and it's very
confusing to me that somehow these two
stories give me the feeling that they
both must be true simultaneously and
they can't both be true in any kind of
standard way well I don't know whether
it's just that I'm dumb but I can't get
one or the other story to quiet down so
I think weirdly this is much more
serious than we had understood it and
it's not nearly as serious as some
people are making it out to be at the
same time and that we're not being given
the tools to actually understand how
here's how to interpret the data or here
the issue with the personal protective
equipment is actually a jurisdictional
battle or a question of who pays for it
rather than a question of whether it's
present or apps I don't understand the
details of it but something is wildly
off in our ability to understand where
we are so that's that's policy that's
institutions what about do you think
about the quiet suffering of millions of
people they've lost their job is this a
temporary thing I mean what I'm my ears
not to the suffering of those people who
have lost their job or the 50% possibly
of small businesses that are gonna go
bankrupt do you think about that sure
it's suffering well and how that might
arise itself could be not quiet - I mean
right that's the could be a depression
could go from recession to depression
and depression could go to armed
conflict and then to war so it's not a
very abstract causal chain that gets us
to the point where we can begin with
quiet suffering and an anxiety and all
of these sorts of things and people
losing their jobs and people dying from
stress and all sorts of things but look
anything powerful enough to put us all
in doors in a I mean think about this as
an incredible experiment imagine that
you proposed hey I want to do a bunch of
research let's figure out what what
changes in our emissions emissions
profiles for our carbon footprints when
we're all indoors or what happens to
traffic patterns or what happens to the
vulnerability of retail sales as Amazon
gets stronger you know etc etc I believe
that in many of those situations we're
running an incredible experiment and am
I worried froth us all yes there are
some bright spots one of which is that
when you're ordered to stay indoors
people are going to feel entitled and
the usual thing that people are going to
hit when they hear that they've lost
your job you know some there's this kind
of tough tough love attitude that you
see particularly in the United States
Lee oh you lost your job poor baby well
go retrain get another one I think
there's gonna be a lot less appetite for
that because we've been asked to
sacrifice to risk to act collectively
and that's the interesting thing what
does that really can in us maybe the
idea that we actually are Nations and
then you know your fellow countrymen may
start to mean something to more people
certainly mean something to people in
the military but I wonder how many
people who aren't in the military start
to think about this it's like oh yeah we
are kind of running separate experiments
and we are not china so you think this
is kind of a period that might be
studied for years to come from my
perspective
we are a part of the experiment but I
don't feel like we have access to the
full data the full data of the
experiment we're just like little mice
yeah in a large does this one make sense
to you Lex
I'm romanticizing it and I keep
connecting it to World War two so I keep
connecting to historical events and
making sense of them through that way or
reading the plague by Camus like almost
kind of telling narratives and stories
but my I'm not hearing the suffering
that people are going through because I
think that's quiet that everybody's numb
currently they're not realizing what it
means to have lost your job and to have
lost your business there's kind of a I I
am I'm afraid how that fear well
material as itself once the numbness
wears out and especially if this lasts
for many months then if it's connected
to the incompetence of the CDC in the
w-h-o and our government and perhaps the
election process you know might be
biggest year is that the you know
elections get delayed or something like
that so the the basic mechanisms of our
democracy get slowed or damaged in some
way that then mixes with the fear that
people have that turns to panic that
turns to anger that anger can I just
play with that for a butcher what if in
fact all of that structure that you grew
up thinking about and again you grew up
in two places right so when you were
inside the US we tend to look at all of
these things as museum pieces like how
often do we amend the Constitution
anymore and in some sense if you think
about the Jewish tradition of Simchat
Torah you've got this beautiful scroll
that has been lovingly hand drawn in
calligraphy that's very valuable and
it's very important
that you not treat it as a relic to be
revered and so we one day a year we
dance with the Torah and we hold this
incredibly vulnerable document up and we
treat it as if you know it was Ginger
Rogers being led by Fred Astaire well
that is how you become part of your
country in fact maybe the maybe the
election will be delayed maybe
extraordinary powers will be used maybe
any one of a number of things will
indicate that you're actually living
through history this isn't a museum
piece that you handed by your
great-great grandparents
you